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Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here.

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Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election,

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Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for

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Speaker 2: the future of this show.

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Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest

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Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does

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Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else.

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Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please

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Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and

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Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent

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Speaker 1: news media, and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: Another issue that people are very understandably concerned about is

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Speaker 2: their electric bill and the way that keeps going up

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Speaker 2: and up. So let's take a listen to Scott Bessen

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Speaker 2: of this administration talking about their plans.

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Speaker 3: To deal with that problem.

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Speaker 4: The President says, so he just had posted this morning

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Speaker 4: that there's almost no inflation. The consumer price index is

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Speaker 4: higher than it was in the beginning of the Electricity

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Speaker 4: rates are rising, sower prices for coffee, beef, vegetables, televisions.

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Speaker 4: And it's not just me, It's not just an economists

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Speaker 4: are saying that your own Republican members of Congress are

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Speaker 4: saying that, including Marjorie Taylor.

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Speaker 5: Green electricity prices are a state problem. And you know,

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Speaker 5: I was very interested to see in the earlier clip

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Speaker 5: where the governor, the governor elected New Jersey, said well,

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Speaker 5: I'm going to bring down energy prices. Well it was

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Speaker 5: her predecessor, phil Phil Murphy who took them up. So

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Speaker 5: you know, look, there are things that the federal government

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Speaker 5: can control of local electric listiting prices are not one

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Speaker 5: of them. But energy prices, gasoline prices are way down,

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Speaker 5: and you know, we are doing what we can every day.

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Speaker 5: I think we are on a very good path to

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Speaker 5: bringing prices down.

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Speaker 2: So what are they going to do for you on

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Speaker 2: your life. Nothing, it's not their problems. Can't do anything.

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Speaker 2: It's just the states. It's the locality. Sorry, sorry, not sorry.

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Speaker 2: We can't do anything, we won't do anything. We don't care.

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Speaker 3: I mean, unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: These are Biden shit. I remember you know during the

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Speaker 1: gas price season, remember, oh, the government can't do anything

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Speaker 1: about gas prices. Is like, first of all, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: may be kind of true, but wouldn't you want to try?

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Speaker 1: Shouldn't you try or.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, and then they actually acknowledge they could because

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Speaker 2: they did their whole like gas reserve, you know, the

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Speaker 2: oil reserve.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's true. I mean on the electricity price

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Speaker 1: and more like yes, in the immediate term, can the

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Speaker 1: government do anything about it? Should you maybe at least

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Speaker 1: pretend to give a shit? I mean green lights some

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Speaker 1: new nuclear power plants, say the path to making you know, zero,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna we're gonna make We're gonna have the cheapest

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Speaker 1: energy in the world. It'd be awesome if somebody said

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Speaker 1: something like that, we're gonna build nuclear powerful bulldoze these

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Speaker 1: nimbi's all across America. We build fifty to one hundred

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Speaker 1: of them out I would like a thousand, but let's

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Speaker 1: start there. I started fifty two hundred. We're gonna build

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Speaker 1: a new oil refined. We don't even need to be woke.

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Speaker 1: Let's build a new oil refinement and build a new

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Speaker 1: oil refining in these countries in the nineteen seventies, all right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at the Port of Houston or LNG.

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Speaker 1: We can't do anything. Everything is structured to make these

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Speaker 1: these like establishments filthy rich. Yeah, and I think you

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Speaker 1: made this point on our call, you were like, you know,

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Speaker 1: when when they have something in their way that they

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Speaker 1: want gone, then they'll like ignore the Supreme Court.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, whatever they want sending the National Guard, we're not

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Speaker 2: sending out if we don't care that the course that

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Speaker 2: we have to send out the food stands, we're not

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Speaker 2: doing it. Like when it's something they want to do

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Speaker 2: that benefits them, that's no problem. But now we're getting like, oh,

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Speaker 2: the parliamentarian type of like dem bullshit excuses coming from them.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, and also think how different from how Trump

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Speaker 2: talked on the campaign traill. He talked all about low

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Speaker 2: prices and abundant energy, right, that was something that was

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Speaker 2: a core promise that he made. Also, think of the

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Speaker 2: contrast with like China, where they're out, you know, massively

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Speaker 2: building out solar energy, like really investing in a green future.

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Speaker 2: And here we have this clown who's like, sorry, sorry,

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Speaker 2: your life sucks, can't do anything about it. And you

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Speaker 2: know it's bullshit because how involved is this federal government

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Speaker 2: and pushing in this whole data center direction. And one

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Speaker 2: of the big drivers of increased prices is the buildoun

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Speaker 2: of these data centers. I mean, you know here in

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Speaker 2: Virginia that has been very clear, and apparently in the

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Speaker 2: state of Georgia as well, because we'll get to some

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Speaker 2: of the direct political results that are already emerging, and

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Speaker 2: we're in the early phases of this data center buildout.

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Speaker 2: Go and put this heat map article up on the screen.

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Speaker 2: Heat map is focuses on like climate politics and the

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Speaker 2: climate crisis. But they talk about the fact that this

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Speaker 2: headline is fantastic. The data center backlash is swallowing American politics.

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Speaker 2: Activists on both the left and the right are pushing

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Speaker 2: back against AI development. And one of the things they

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Speaker 2: dig into, and they did some very interesting polling here

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Speaker 2: as well, is that the opposition to data centers is

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Speaker 2: truly across the political spectrum because if you think about it,

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Speaker 2: you know, I live in I've mentioned this a few times.

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Speaker 2: I live in a rural community. We have two data

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Speaker 2: centers that may be located. One of them is basically

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Speaker 2: already Greenland. The other one is you know, there's pushback Amazon,

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Speaker 2: they're trying, they're in court whatever. Probably both of them

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Speaker 2: are going to be ultimately located in the county, and

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Speaker 2: it's a conservative county. It voted you know, some like

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Speaker 2: sixty five percent for Trump. Roughly, In any case, you

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Speaker 2: know the people who live there who are more you know,

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Speaker 2: they're committed to the rural character of the county. It

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Speaker 2: is like a Nimbi issue. They don't want the data

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Speaker 2: centers there. And there is a genuine bipartisan concern about

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Speaker 2: what is this going to do to our water supply

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Speaker 2: and of course a genuine bipartisan concern about what is

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Speaker 2: this going to do to our electric bills?

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Speaker 3: So these are truly.

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Speaker 2: Like non ideological. And then on the left you also

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Speaker 2: have the concern about the environmental degradation as well, which

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Speaker 2: he Map focuses on as well. I wanted to read

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Speaker 2: you this one section which was kind of interesting to

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Speaker 2: me of some of the activists.

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Speaker 3: Who have gotten involved.

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Speaker 2: They write, on one end of the spectrum left align

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Speaker 2: activists and local leaders are raging against the energy and

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Speaker 2: water system strain that'll come from the data center boom.

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Speaker 2: You have folks like Blake co and activist fighting data

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Speaker 2: center projects in San Marcos, Texas. Co told me he

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Speaker 2: began opposing data centers after being politically awakened by a

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Speaker 2: totally different issue, the Israeli government's offensive in Gaza. And

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Speaker 2: alleged genocide of Palestindians there. But as he told me,

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Speaker 2: he didn't have quote, the clout, the money, the whatever

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Speaker 2: to work on fixing a genocide. After learning about the

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Speaker 2: project in San Marcos, he concluded the community there was

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Speaker 2: something he can fight for. So, you know, because it's

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Speaker 2: so local, because it's such an extraordinary coalition, you have

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Speaker 2: local activists that are stepping up or are truly across

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Speaker 2: the political spectrum. We're saying we have to make sure

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Speaker 2: that we refuse these data centers in our communities and

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Speaker 2: block them from being built. In Georgia, this was apparently

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Speaker 2: a major issue that helped to cause a truly historic

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Speaker 2: shift electoral shift in that state's statewide results. Put C

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Speaker 2: three up on the screen. Here, this is a swing

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Speaker 2: in one Georgia county. So Democrats flipped Morgan County, Georgia.

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Speaker 2: For the Utility Rates Commission in twenty twenty four, it

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Speaker 2: was R plus forty seven. Let me say that again.

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Speaker 2: In the Trump election, it was R plus forty seven.

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Speaker 2: Democrats won it by three points. It was a fifty

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Speaker 2: point swing, and the Democrats who were running statewide in

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Speaker 2: Georgia ran specifically on opposition to these data centers wanting

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Speaker 2: to reduce electric bill prices, and look, it was a

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Speaker 2: low turn on elections as unique circumstances, etc. Gives you

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Speaker 2: a little taste of how powerful these particular politics sagat

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Speaker 2: can ultimately be. And Greg Bluestein down in Georgia did

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Speaker 2: some of the fantastic reporting pointing out how much this

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Speaker 2: ended up being a central issue in these campaigns. And

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Speaker 2: we had a few races here in Virginia too, for

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Speaker 2: the House of Delegates, where at least one of the

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Speaker 2: Democratic House of Delegates candidates ran aggressively against a data

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Speaker 2: center that was being built down in their county, and

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Speaker 2: they also were able to flip a swing seat there

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Speaker 2: on the strength of that message.

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Speaker 1: I think what I love about this is that Americans

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Speaker 1: it's not just their don't tread on me philosophy. A

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Speaker 1: lot of it comes down to opposition to in trench

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Speaker 1: power which they do not control. That's what this whole

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Speaker 1: thing is about. If you look at our economy, the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of the growth of the spending is coming

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Speaker 1: from data centers. People understand this. You can look at

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Speaker 1: a basic chart and they can feel viscerally, even if

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Speaker 1: they're not reading the Wall Street Journal every day, they're

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Speaker 1: like this in video thing, like we're about to talk

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Speaker 1: about that, this valuation, all of this hype around AI.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure I like this. I'm not sure this

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Speaker 1: is making me feel better. I'm not sure this is

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Speaker 1: really showing up in my workplace. It's been a couple

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Speaker 1: of years now of AI. If it does show up

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Speaker 1: in your workplace is because the younger employees are getting fired.

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Speaker 1: If it does show up in your workplace, it's probably

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Speaker 1: because you have to use it to be like a

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Speaker 1: little bit more efficient. But overall, your wages have not increased.

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Speaker 1: The profits of the companies are going massively sky high.

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Speaker 1: You're seeing your child use it, let's say in college.

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Speaker 1: You're reading the stories also of people who are using

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Speaker 1: it to commit suicide and idea of mental health awareness.

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Speaker 1: You see the porn thing from AI Instagram for teen

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Speaker 1: chatbots that are springing up. You have a deep suspicion,

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Speaker 1: and then your electricity bill wants to go up. I

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Speaker 1: showed you the Sora memes. It's just shit. It's just

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Speaker 1: literally like a bear shake in its ass and from

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Speaker 1: a ring camera. I'm not did I laugh?

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Speaker 6: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Should I pay more?

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Speaker 3: For it.

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Speaker 1: No, I mean, why.

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Speaker 3: Should anybody do them benefit outweigh the costs?

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Speaker 1: Do the benefits out with the costs. I mean, we're

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Speaker 1: already talking about ai ads in politics. Oh my god,

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Speaker 1: did you see this Bill Ackman thing? Recently? Bill Ackman

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Speaker 1: posted a video which was entirely ai of Elon talking

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Speaker 1: and it fell for it. I mean, this is one

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Speaker 1: of the richest men in the United States of America,

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Speaker 1: which gives you a little bit of a view into

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Speaker 1: their IQ for those who are those rich, But I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know from them, to think about it. If you're

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Speaker 1: an average Facebook boomer or anything this, how are you

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Speaker 1: supposed to to do anything with this? And I think

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Speaker 1: the point that I come back to is if that's

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Speaker 1: all we get is suicidal ideation, marginal increase in worker

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Speaker 1: productivity or whatever, but huge sky high bills, a destruction

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Speaker 1: of social trust. And you didn't you remember they said

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Speaker 1: they were going to cure cancer. They said they were

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Speaker 1: going to massively benefit all of our lives. Sorry, I

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Speaker 1: don't think so. The only thing that's gonna cure cancer

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Speaker 1: is probably people taking those zepi because they're gonna be

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Speaker 1: less fat. That's the only thing I can potentially see

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with AI certainly. So you put that

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Speaker 1: together and the people are rightfully afraid of centralized control

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Speaker 1: and they see the infrastructure pop up. Also, if you're

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Speaker 1: our age, we lived through the Amazonification of America. We

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Speaker 1: watched Amazon become the second largest employer in the United States,

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Speaker 1: second only to what Walmart. I think maybe even surpassed

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Speaker 1: Walmart in some cases, to build warehouses for goods all

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Speaker 1: over the nation. Everybody's neighborhood in America has the blue

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Speaker 1: vest contractor in the Amazon thing. And they look at that,

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Speaker 1: and those guys are shitting in bags and peeing in

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Speaker 1: bottles because their productivity is tracked every which way. And

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Speaker 1: you're like, I don't know about this, right, I don't

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Speaker 1: know about this. This is not right. It doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: good to me. And so you can see that happening

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Speaker 1: now with AI. I think that's what it all comes

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Speaker 1: down to. Also, we just don't have cheap power. We

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Speaker 1: don't have power in our countries of finite resources. It's

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Speaker 1: not that finite in China, even though they have over

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Speaker 1: a billion people. The Chinese are willing to do anything.

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Speaker 1: They don't care about environmental regulations, about nothing. They will

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Speaker 1: do build anything to make sure that power is cheap.

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Speaker 1: That makes it so that people can do AI and

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Speaker 1: they can do whatever they want, which is awesome. That's

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Speaker 1: nice type of country. And you also have a huge

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Speaker 1: electric vehicle infrastructure and all that built out here, we've

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Speaker 1: basically got the worst of all worlds. We have aging,

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Speaker 1: oil infrastructure, We have aging. You know, we have a

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Speaker 1: complete federal capture in the bureaucracy over nuclear power, We

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Speaker 1: have no innovation. Power is going up, and everything just

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Speaker 1: looks like it's going to centralize power, and we don't

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Speaker 1: have a government that's allowed to rain those people in either.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's just I don't know, it's tragic.

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Speaker 2: As someone saw someone who treated basically like all of

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Speaker 2: the people who should have been building like nuclear power

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Speaker 2: plants are instead building data centers. And I also just

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Speaker 2: saw this morning we will cover tomorrow that there's a number

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Speaker 2: of these data centers in video ones in particular, that

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Speaker 2: are being built out that aren't even functional because there

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Speaker 2: isn't sufficient power generation at where's the you know, where's

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Speaker 2: the effort to deal with that. So basically, there's something

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Speaker 2: for everybody to hate in the data center build out,

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Speaker 2: except for the corporations you know, who are hoping, hoping

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Speaker 2: that this big bet that they're placing is going to

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Speaker 2: make them wildly wealthy.

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Speaker 3: And sager.

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Speaker 2: You know, they've got a backup plan too, which is

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Speaker 2: that if it doesn't work out, they think we should

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Speaker 2: backstop their losses. So all the gains to them and

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Speaker 2: the losses, you know, we're we're here to backstop and

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Speaker 2: make sure that Sam Altman and Elon and Mark Zuckerberg

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Speaker 2: and all the rest are just fine. Here is Sam

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Speaker 2: Altman in a recent interview speaking to exactly this.

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Speaker 7: Some level, when something gets sufficiently huge, whether or not

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Speaker 7: they are on paper, the federal government is kind of

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Speaker 7: the insurer of last resort, as we've seen in various

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Speaker 7: financial crises and insurance companies crering things up. So I guess,

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Speaker 7: given the magnitude of what I expect ai economic impact

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Speaker 7: to look like, sort of, I do think the government

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Speaker 7: ends up as like the insurer of last resort, But

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Speaker 7: I don't I think I mean that in a different

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Speaker 7: way than you mean that, And I don't expect them

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Speaker 7: to actually be like writing the policies in the way

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Speaker 7: that maybe they do for nuclear.

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Speaker 8: And there's a big difference between the government being the

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Speaker 8: insurer of last resort and the insurer of first resort

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Speaker 8: last resort. It's inevitable, but I'm worried they'll become the

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Speaker 8: insurer of first resort and that I don't want.

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Speaker 2: So he says there the government is de facto the

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Speaker 2: insure of last resort. I mean basically that what he's

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Speaker 2: saying is we're going to be too big to fail.

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Speaker 3: We're already probably we're already too big to fail.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is what we're tracking when we talk

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Speaker 2: about how like the whole American economy is just basically

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Speaker 2: one big bet on AI. Most of you know, all

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Speaker 2: the construction growth is data centers, and then all of

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Speaker 2: the growth of the stock market is these AI and

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Speaker 2: tech stocks. You know, they're rather than coming up with

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Speaker 2: plans like detailed solutions to deal with the housing crisis,

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Speaker 2: of healthcare and whatever, they're just like putting all their

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Speaker 2: wishes in the magic bucket of somehow AI is going

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Speaker 2: to come to the rescue and save us all. So

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Speaker 2: Sam Altman has been getting a lot of heat over

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Speaker 2: those comments and over a suggestion that he may want

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Speaker 2: government funding to help him build out his data centers,

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Speaker 2: so not just be ensure of last result resort, but

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Speaker 2: we're then actually on the hook for their buildout. And

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Speaker 2: the reason that this is a question is first of all,

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Speaker 2: cause some of the comments you made, but number two,

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Speaker 2: because they've said they're going to spend trillions of dollars

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Speaker 2: on data center buildouts when their revenue is not any

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Speaker 2: We're close to being able to float that sort of thing.

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Speaker 2: So let me go ahead and play D three, which

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Speaker 2: speaks to this issue of like, wait a second, how are.

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Speaker 3: You going to spend trillions of dollars on these data centers?

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Speaker 2: And then I'll give you Sam's response on the other side, how.

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Speaker 7: Can the company with thirteen billion in revenues make one

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Speaker 7: point for trillion of spend commitments and you've heard the

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Speaker 7: criticism say we're doing well more revenue than that. Second

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Speaker 7: of all, Brad, if you want to sell your shares,

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Speaker 7: I'll find you a buyer. I just enough, like you know,

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Speaker 7: people are I think there's a lot of people who

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Speaker 7: would love to buy Open Eye shares.

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Speaker 1: I don't think you, including myself, including myself.

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Speaker 7: People who talk with a lot of breathless concern about

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Speaker 7: our compute stuff or whatever that would be thrilled to

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Speaker 7: buy shares. So I think we could sell you know,

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Speaker 7: your shares or anybody else's to some of the people

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Speaker 7: who are making the most noise on Twitter. Whatever about

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Speaker 7: this very quickly. We do plan for revenue to grow steeply.

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Speaker 7: Revenue is growing steeply. We are taking a forward bet

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Speaker 7: that it's going to continue to grow and that not

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Speaker 7: only will Chat to be t keep growing, but we

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Speaker 7: will be able to become one of the important AI clouds,

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Speaker 7: that our consumer device business will be a significant and

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Speaker 7: important thing. That AI that can autom made science will

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Speaker 7: create huge value. So you know, there are not many

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Speaker 7: times that I want to be a public company. But

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Speaker 7: one of the rare times it's appealing is when those

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Speaker 7: people that are writing these ridiculous opening eyes about to

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Speaker 7: go out of business and you know whatever, I would

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Speaker 7: love to tell them they could just short the stock

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Speaker 7: and I would love to see them get burned on that.

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Speaker 7: But you know, I we carefully plan. We understand where

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Speaker 7: the technology, where the capability is going to grow go

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Speaker 7: and how the products we can build around that and

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Speaker 7: the revenue we can generate. We might screw it up

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Speaker 7: like this is the bet that we're making and we're

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Speaker 7: taking a risk along with that.

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Speaker 1: Think about how modest of a question that was. It

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Speaker 1: was just like some people say, you can't do that,

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Speaker 1: and he said, oh, well, if you want to share,

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Speaker 1: if you want to sell your shares, then I'm sure

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Speaker 1: I could find a buyer for them. Many may not remember,

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Speaker 1: but there was a famous moment in Enron meltdown where

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Speaker 1: the CEO kind of blanking on, not the CEO, the

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Speaker 1: god COEO, Jeffrey Skilling, that was his name. The guy

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Speaker 1: went to prison and an analyst asked him about irregularities

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Speaker 1: in the Enron books and he called him an asshole

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Speaker 1: on the on the call. Became a massive moment. If

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Speaker 1: you ever watched the documentary, I read the book The

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Speaker 1: Smartest Guys in the Room. That's what it reminded me of.

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Speaker 1: It was a tell is. It was super touchy, and

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Speaker 1: that's what eventually led into the actual meltdown of the company.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, just so you all know, from

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Speaker 1: that whole period about I'd like to see them short

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Speaker 1: the stock or whatever. Go take a look at en

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Speaker 1: video over the last five days. If they lost ten

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Speaker 1: fifteen percent and there are all stock value modest reductions

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Speaker 1: again in those stocks matter for the overall US economy

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Speaker 1: because Nvidia alone, the last time I checked, was eight

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Speaker 1: percent of the entire US S and P five hundred,

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Speaker 1: eighty percent of all S and P five hundred games

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Speaker 1: over the last year are from AI stocks. They are

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Speaker 1: the only reason the United States is not currently in

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Speaker 1: a full on recession because of AI data cap spending.

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Speaker 1: So if they stop spending on the data centers, and

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Speaker 1: then what's going to happen if they come up short?

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Speaker 1: I mean, think about they've set up a system where

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Speaker 1: thirteen billion dollar company with one point two trillion dollars

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Speaker 1: in outlays is a failure. If it only spends one

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Speaker 1: hundred billion, two hundred billion, that's still a lot. That's

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Speaker 1: that's very profitable, right, That's an awesome company that was

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Speaker 1: able to go. But they are saying we're not just

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Speaker 1: going to the Moon, We're going to Saturn.

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Speaker 9: You know.

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Speaker 1: It's like so if they don't, if they fall short

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Speaker 1: and we only go to Mars, then you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a whole failure. Well that is a problem.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 2: And here's the thing too with his response there of

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Speaker 2: like basically like, well, our stock's going to keep going up.

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Speaker 2: It's like that doesn't answer that is not actually responsive

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Speaker 2: to the question of how you're going to fund this

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Speaker 2: massive build out that you're promising, and speaks to the

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Speaker 2: concerns that you're like hoping that the US government helps

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Speaker 2: you to make sure or some sort of weird you know,

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Speaker 2: gimmick gimmicky vendor financing like moondoggle. Like Okay, I actually

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Speaker 2: don't doubt that the stock continues to go up because

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Speaker 2: I think this government is now all in on AI

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Speaker 2: and is going to make sure that you don't collapse.

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Speaker 2: You are too big to fail. Your entire industry now

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Speaker 2: is basically too big to fail. So the fact that

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Speaker 2: the government is likely to continue to inflate the bubble

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Speaker 2: is not responsive to the question of how this is

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Speaker 2: all going to work out. So, in any case, Sam

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Speaker 2: put out an acman esque post here in response to

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Speaker 2: these questions and some others and concerns that he's been getting.

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Speaker 2: The very fact that this post is so lengthy, in

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Speaker 2: my view, is a red flag to begin with, because

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Speaker 2: if you have simple answers like oh, yeah, our revenue

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Speaker 2: is gonna like here's our revenue trajectory, and that's how

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Speaker 2: we're going to fund it. That doesn't take however many

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Speaker 2: words this is to be able to put out. So

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Speaker 2: let's go and put d two guys up on the

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Speaker 2: screen here. This also got originally a community note that I'll.

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Speaker 3: Get back to.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to read this even though it's a little tedious,

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Speaker 2: because I do want to get into what he's claiming here.

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Speaker 2: So he says, I'd like to clarify a few things first.

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Speaker 2: The obvious one. We do not have or want government

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Speaker 2: guarantees for open AI data centers. We believe government should

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Speaker 2: not pick winners or losers, and taxpayers should not be

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Speaker 2: allowed companies that make bad business decisions or otherwise lose

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Speaker 2: in the market. If one company fails, other companies will

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Speaker 2: do good work.

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Speaker 3: What we do.

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Speaker 2: Think might make sense is government's building and owning their

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Speaker 2: own AI infrastructure. But then upside of that should flow

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Speaker 2: to the governments as well. We can imagine a world

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Speaker 2: where governments decide to off take a lot of computing

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Speaker 2: power and get to decide how to use it, and

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Speaker 2: it may make sense to provide lower cost of capital

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Speaker 2: to do so. Building a strategic national reserve of computing

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Speaker 2: power makes a lot of sense, but this should be

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Speaker 2: for the government's benefit, not the benefit of private companies.

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Speaker 2: The one area where we have discussed loan guarantees is

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Speaker 2: as part of supporting the buildout of semiconductor fabs in

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Speaker 2: the US, where we and other companies have respond to

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Speaker 2: the government's call and where we would be happy to help,

436
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:38,720
Speaker 2: though we did not.

437
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,760
Speaker 3: Formally apply the basic idea.

438
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 2: There has been ensuring that the sourcing of the chip

439
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 2: supply chain is as American as possible in order to

440
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,439
Speaker 2: bring jobs in industrialization back to the US and to

441
00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,360
Speaker 2: enhance the strategic position of the US with an independent

442
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,000
Speaker 2: supply chain for the benefit of all American companies. This

443
00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,280
Speaker 2: is of course different from governments guaranteeing private benefit data

444
00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,600
Speaker 2: center buildouts. So just on that first part, right, he's saying,

445
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 2: oh no, we totally like if companies fail, they should

446
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,359
Speaker 2: go under. We totally don't want the federal government backstopping

447
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:09,479
Speaker 2: our data centers. But we do think here's some ways

448
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,440
Speaker 2: that government should actually backstop data centers. And you know,

449
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 2: it may be more for their benefit, but of course

450
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 2: it would benefit open AI as well. If you know,

451
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 2: the government is getting involved in the business of building

452
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 2: this strategic national theory.

453
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,359
Speaker 1: It's not a horrible idea, it's that in practice, what

454
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 1: it would be done is a way for open AI

455
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 1: to offset it's huge capital expenditure onto the tax payer

456
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,119
Speaker 1: exactly while they get to benefit from it now in

457
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,640
Speaker 1: theory if we were to build or own some stake

458
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 1: in the I mean, this is one reason I was

459
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 1: very pro the Intel deal. The whole reason that I

460
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: thought we should have taken ten percent in Intel is like, yeah,

461
00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,680
Speaker 1: at the end of the day, this company basically destroyed

462
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,800
Speaker 1: itself on the back of shareholder capitalism, and you do

463
00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,879
Speaker 1: need some impetus in terms of a national strategy to

464
00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 1: say absolutely not, no, we're going to take a stake

465
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:56,040
Speaker 1: in this company. We're going to guide you in direction

466
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 1: of the nation. The issue with just having that and

467
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,640
Speaker 1: then basically privatize or no pup, what is it socializing?

468
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:05,800
Speaker 1: The biggest cost center for these people is it would

469
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: actually be a boon to their stock price while also

470
00:22:08,640 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: not getting anything from them in return. What are the

471
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,399
Speaker 1: public things that we would all want from open AYE

472
00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,760
Speaker 1: From me? For me, what it would be is this

473
00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:21,920
Speaker 1: whole porn suicide thing. It's over. It's over. Like anything

474
00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: that subsidizes or encourages addictive or mental health, you know,

475
00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 1: behaviors which are detrimental to the user. Absolutely not. I

476
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,439
Speaker 1: think that we should all have a real say in that.

477
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 1: And as a result of us, let's say, taking some

478
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:36,160
Speaker 1: of that off, a huge amount of your compute power

479
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 1: is going to go to stuff which we think is

480
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 1: more beneficial. Why don't you actually solve cancer. Why don't

481
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 1: you actually you know, go and point at some of

482
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,399
Speaker 1: the directions that we think that you should do. That's

483
00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 1: what we you know, as a society, we should try

484
00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:49,879
Speaker 1: to use this technology, especially we're going to bail it

485
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 1: out or provide some of a subsidy then into the

486
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: benefit of what we can agree as like a democratic society,

487
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 1: for what we want from it. But instead that's not

488
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 1: what's going to happen. David Sachs said, there will be

489
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: no federal bailout of AI. He's the White House, AIS

490
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 1: are we'll see. To be honest, I'm not sure they

491
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,919
Speaker 1: have a choice. Like if you if you allow it

492
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: to fail, you are we are in a full blown recession,

493
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: full blown like we have no manufacturing, we have nothing. Yes,

494
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,639
Speaker 1: the interest rates would come down, but I mean stock

495
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 1: portfolio will creter. Do people remember dot Com? I mean

496
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:28,119
Speaker 1: at one point stock went down by ninety nine percent,

497
00:23:28,320 --> 00:23:32,239
Speaker 1: Like we will see a full blown melt down in

498
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 1: assets for the boomers, so they'll have nothing if you're

499
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: trying to retire, I mean, you know, it could be worse.

500
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: But for them, like their stock portfolios will melt they

501
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 1: will have nothing. Younger folks of course will bear the

502
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,919
Speaker 1: brunt because of reduction in stock, no no hiring, you know,

503
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: and then there'll be a huge mass layoff and then

504
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 1: what like at that point, no one's going to be

505
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 1: buying many houses because a lot of people use margin accounts,

506
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 1: like the rich people who buy how they use margin

507
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 1: accounts on their assets to buy, And there'll be no

508
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,400
Speaker 1: tax subsidy. Like it'll be bad. Yeah, bad. I don't

509
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:07,919
Speaker 1: know if they have a choice but to bail it out.

510
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:08,880
Speaker 1: We don't have anything else.

511
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 2: That's that, And that was the logic of the bank ballance. Yes,

512
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 2: was like listen, we all know that this is not

513
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: but like what if we let these institutions fail, we

514
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 2: don't know what that looks like, Like that could be

515
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: a total like calamity.

516
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would have been that you can't recover.

517
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: So yeah, it's going to be it's gonna be ugly,

518
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,439
Speaker 2: but we don't know. And so too big to fail

519
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 2: is it means that there's they want to make it

520
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 2: the logic such that the government has no choice or

521
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 2: feels that they have no choice anyway, that the pain

522
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 2: of allowing this organization to fail is so great that

523
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 2: it's not like you need Sam in there advocating the

524
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 2: logic of the system is what makes it too big

525
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:50,440
Speaker 2: to fail.

526
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 3: And yes, we're already there.

527
00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 2: I mean, these these tech doocs are covering up so

528
00:24:55,680 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 2: many glaring disasters in the American economy. If you look,

529
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: if you put the tech stocks, the Magnificent seven or

530
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,439
Speaker 2: whatever aside, and you look at the rest of the

531
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: performance of you know, consumer stocks and banking stocks, et cetera,

532
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 2: our stock market is actually underperforming even the European indexes.

533
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: So the fact that we have you know, Nvidia primarily,

534
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: but all these other tech stock tesla, which is completely overvalued,

535
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 2: insanely overvalued, that these things keep going up and up

536
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: and up, creates the illusion of momentum and growth in

537
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: the economy. That you know that Trump can hang has

538
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: had on and that a bunch of rich people are

539
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,840
Speaker 2: benefiting from Meanwhile, everything else is stagnating. And so if

540
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 2: that goes away and you deal with the fallout of that,

541
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 2: oh my god. So we are already really in a disaster.

542
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: It can't go down. It can't. We don't have anything else.

543
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:48,199
Speaker 1: We don't have pensions in this country. We only have

544
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: four on one case. Right, we have no guarantee cash.

545
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: The number has to go up. If the number doesn't

546
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,200
Speaker 1: go up, we're fucked.

547
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 3: I hold it, bet on it.

548
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: The music will stop. Fifty percent of all consumer spending

549
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 1: in the United today is from the top ten percent,

550
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 1: who are doing so on the inflated value of their

551
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: stock portfolio. What would happen? You know what? What was

552
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,880
Speaker 1: the term they said about NAFTA, the giant sucking sound. Yeah,

553
00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: that's what's for real. If there is a if there

554
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: is a ninety nine percent drop in the QQQ or

555
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,480
Speaker 1: the tech stops or something like that, Yeah, game over.

556
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: Like air travel done, consumer spending done, housing market done.

557
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: Like everything will collapse. And if you're poor, you may

558
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:30,960
Speaker 1: root for that because you're like, oh screw them. It's like, yeah,

559
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: well they control your destiny too, Okay, so they're gonna

560
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: be at the I don't know. I don't want to

561
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: be this way. I'm just telling you you're gonna get fired.

562
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 1: You're gonna make it so that you can't get a job,

563
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,479
Speaker 1: interest rates and all that will go down for them.

564
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: It's not gonna be to your benefit. So it's it's

565
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: just I don't know, it's it's very dark. If they

566
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,639
Speaker 1: don't radically change something soon, which of course they're not

567
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 1: going to do, we will face this political question, and

568
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 1: in my opinion, they absolutely will get a bailout because

569
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: the alternative is so catastrophic. I mean, it's genuinely catastrophic.

570
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: I think to the US economy.

571
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 2: Put D four up on the screen is the last

572
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 2: element will throw to in this block, just to show

573
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,760
Speaker 2: you the amount of debt that's already being taken on

574
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 2: in order to finance the AI data center build out.

575
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,280
Speaker 2: And you can see, you know, in twenty twenty four,

576
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: it's like a you know, very minimal amount, and now

577
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,959
Speaker 2: you just have this absolute explosion in debt backed financing

578
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 2: of these data centers, and you know, so you've got nobody.

579
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: Asked for this, right.

580
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,359
Speaker 2: Communities in uproar political system already showing the signs of

581
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,160
Speaker 2: being roiled by this, and you have all this debt

582
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,359
Speaker 2: being taken on these companies already too big to fail,

583
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 2: and then you know these inklings from from oldman and

584
00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: he's not the only he's just the only one dumb

585
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 2: enough to like say it out loud apparently that you know,

586
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,440
Speaker 2: they're looking for the federal government to help them, help

587
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: them continue this build out and to be there for them,

588
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: and you know when if they fail. So that is

589
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 2: that's the that's the landscape we're facing right now, looking

590
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,719
Speaker 2: very good. One more story here before we get to

591
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: our guests that we wanted to make sure to highlight

592
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 2: because it just really is so illustrative of the twisted

593
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,879
Speaker 2: relationship this country has to Israel and the way the

594
00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: logic of it permeates every administration, whether it is Democrat

595
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 2: or Republican.

596
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 3: S put this up on the screen.

597
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 2: This was a scoop from Reuters and have an impost

598
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: fleshed out some of this reporting as well, so they

599
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: say scoop. The US gathered intelligence last year. This was

600
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: during the Biden administration that Israel's military lawyers, Israel's military

601
00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 2: lawyers warned there was evidence that could support war crimes

602
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 2: charges against Israel. For its military campaign in Gaza. That's

603
00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 2: according to five former US officials. They say the previously

604
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: unreported intelligence, described by the former officials as among the

605
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 2: most startling shared with top US policymakers during the war,

606
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: pointed to doubts within the Israeli military about the legality

607
00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 2: of its own tactics that contrasted sharply with Israel's public stance.

608
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: Two of the former US officials said the material was

609
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 2: not broadly circulated until late in the Biden administration, when

610
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 2: it was disseminated more widely ahead of a congressional briefing

611
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 2: in December twenty twenty four. Even before then, lawyers at

612
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 2: the State Department had repeatedly raised concerns with US Secretary

613
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 2: of State Tony Blincoln that Israel might be committing war crimes.

614
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: According to five former US officials, as early as December

615
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, lawyers from the State Department's Legal Bureau

616
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: told Blincoln in meetings they believed Israel's military conduct and

617
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 2: Gaza likely amounted to violations of international humanitarian law and

618
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: potentially war crimes. There's so much in here that is important,

619
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: and I know none of this will be surprising to

620
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: you guys. But again, I think it's important to dig

621
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: into exactly how this all unfolded. So there were three

622
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 2: different things going on. First of all, there was a

623
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 2: State Department assessment that had been reported on previously, and

624
00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 2: at least one State Department official resigned over the watering

625
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: down of this assessment and the fact that once it

626
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 2: went through the leadership they changed the conclusions.

627
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 3: They watered it down.

628
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: Why because the minute that you say Israel's committing war crimes,

629
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:13,320
Speaker 2: it means by our own law we are not allowed

630
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 2: to send them weapons. It also opens up the possibility

631
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 2: of war crimes charges against our own officials, because if

632
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 2: you are complicent you know that their intent is criminal,

633
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 2: then you yourself if you are aiding in a betting pt,

634
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: then you opened yourself up to church.

635
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 3: So you had that report.

636
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 2: Internally that was basically like water down and quashed. You

637
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 2: had a refusal to actually engage in any sort of

638
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,400
Speaker 2: an in depth assessment. So everyone's just sort of like

639
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 2: covering their eyes and ears and pretending like they didn't

640
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 2: know what was going on here. So if they can

641
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 2: avoid making an assessment, then they can pretend play dumb

642
00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: and oh, we think they're the most moral army in

643
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 2: the universe. They told us that there was some mas

644
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 2: under that school bus, or under that church, or under

645
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: that mosque, or under that hospital or whatever.

646
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 3: And then you of this.

647
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: Which is Israel's own lawyers and military saying we think

648
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: we're committing war crimes. And the way they got out

649
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: of this one is by saying, well, we didn't come

650
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: to our own independent assessment. So the fact that the

651
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: Israelis think they're committing war crimes and that it spoke

652
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: specifically to intent, which is also the key way that

653
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 2: they always dodge. All accidents happen, war as hell, blah

654
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: blah blah. But they don't intend to murder all of

655
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: these babies and women and innocence. So since it spoke

656
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: to intent, that's what created a further difficulty for them.

657
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:38,400
Speaker 2: And so their dodge there, which was led by Brett McGirk,

658
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: was the most aggressive advocate for Israel in the administration,

659
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: saying we can't do nothing. We were not going to

660
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 2: change course, We're not going to you know, we're not

661
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 2: going to bring any of this to light whatsoever.

662
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 3: In any case.

663
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 2: The reason they were they their argument there was basically like, oh, well,

664
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: we didn't come to our own assessment. So the you know,

665
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 2: the Israelis they think that, but we haven't come to

666
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: our own assessments. So we're just going to say and

667
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 2: do nothing. I mean, it's just so incredibly disgusting. And

668
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 2: then the Trump administration was briefed on all of this

669
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: coming in, and of course here's the difference between the

670
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,120
Speaker 2: two and the Biden administration. There was some handering about

671
00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 2: it and they did nothing. In the Trump administration, there

672
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 2: was no hand ringing about it, and they just continued

673
00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: to fully fund and support the genocide.

674
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 5: Yeah.

675
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: I mean, but this is why the Biden one. I

676
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe it's just me, but I appreciate a

677
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 1: little bit more honesty because front of them they were

678
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,960
Speaker 1: always hemming and hawing. The fact is December twenty twenty

679
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: three on they got a briefing and they said, hey,

680
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: this is probably happening, and they decided to just cover

681
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: it up as a Secretary of State. And by the way, again,

682
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: at the very same time, they were justifying US support

683
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 1: for Ukraine because they said that Russia was violating international

684
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: rearms and Putin is a war criminal who had to

685
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: step down, and Russia was committing a genocide in Ukraine

686
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: at the very same time of what was happening in Israel.

687
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: There was no consistency between the two. This is why

688
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,600
Speaker 1: the whole human rights thing is a farce. It always

689
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: has been. And instead they took it like to the

690
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: max conclusion. I think with the way that they conducted

691
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: themselves like broadly and so I don't know for the

692
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: Biden administration in particular. Really, what I think I'm shocked

693
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: by is the same what happened with Cheney, where in

694
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: all of his New York Times obituaries and everything, even

695
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: the political reporters and others, they would say, oh, he

696
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: was a patriot. He died a patriot because he stood

697
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 1: up to Trump, Like that's the only lens that they

698
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 1: look at politics. Even right now, Jake Sullivan is launching

699
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: a new podcast with Vox Media, like how can you

700
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: if you're Vox right? Like and Harvard also the Harvard

701
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 1: Kennedy School.

702
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: I think, like Brett McGirk, who is a genuine demon.

703
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 2: I think he's on CNN, and I think he also

704
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:44,440
Speaker 2: got hired by Harvard.

705
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying. Like these people, they suffer no consequences,

706
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: like the entire political elite is like, oh, you work

707
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,640
Speaker 1: for Biden, good guy, check mark right. They never look

708
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: at you, They don't analyze your actual actions and the

709
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: consequences of what they mean, as long as you are

710
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: opposed to the right side or if you speak in

711
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 1: the right language. And that's like, that's basically what all

712
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 1: like current democratic neolib politics is centered around. I just

713
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 1: think it's so crazy, Well, get a guy like Sullivan

714
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,279
Speaker 1: and can not only get the HKS deal, but like

715
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 1: launch a podcast with no shame, nothing. It's like acting

716
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:25,359
Speaker 1: like a victor. Like, sorry, dude, you actually presided over

717
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: one of the worst foreign policy periods in American history. Period.

718
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,399
Speaker 1: End of story, Like there's no question about it.

719
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 2: Put the two up on the screen. Because this is

720
00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:34,399
Speaker 2: also very telling. I would recommend you read this whole

721
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,160
Speaker 2: hat Day post piece because it gets into some of

722
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: the details about who it talks about the.

723
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,879
Speaker 3: Brett McGirk piece more deeply. But here's what they said.

724
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:44,799
Speaker 2: They say Biden officials worried that attaching their names to

725
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:47,879
Speaker 2: a recommendation to limit American support for Tel Aviv would

726
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: hinder their future career prospects, the former senior official said,

727
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 2: which is in itself appalling, Yes, it is.

728
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 3: It is appalling.

729
00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 2: And to Sager's point, think about this, okay, Actually, like

730
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: cutting on support for Israel's genocide, that would hurt their

731
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 2: career prospects. But the fact that they were complicit in

732
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:11,320
Speaker 2: that and engage in a multi year cover up that

733
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 2: has no problem for their career prospects. You know, they're

734
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 2: getting podcasts, They're going to the Harvard School, other Ivy

735
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 2: League institutions, corporate boards, whatever world is their oyster. No

736
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: problem there. And so that is the sort of logic

737
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 2: that pervades government now. I think on the Democratic side,

738
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 2: there is a shifting for the politicians. There is a

739
00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 2: shifting political calculus that they are grappling with now, and

740
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 2: you see it in primaries that are playing out across

741
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:40,759
Speaker 2: the country. Obviously, you saw it in the New York

742
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 2: City mayoral race. You see it in terms of you know,

743
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: the members of Congress now who are having to look

744
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 2: over their shoulder and worry about what did I do,

745
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: what did I say? Where am I going to locate

746
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 2: myself now and are wildly at odds with the Democratic

747
00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 2: base on the issue of Israel specifically. So there is

748
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 2: some changing political calculation calculus that is happening right now

749
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,600
Speaker 2: as we speak. But up until this very moment, all

750
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 2: of the costs and the consequences, we're on doing the

751
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 2: right thing. We're on asserting an independent foreign policy. We're

752
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 2: on checking the abuses of Israel, calling out their war crime.

753
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 3: You know, Tony B.

754
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 2: Lincoln was running around the State Department talking about how

755
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 2: this was ethnic cleansing, like they knew. They knew, of

756
00:36:22,840 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 2: course they knew. I mean again, this is not going

757
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 2: to be a surprise to you. But they played dumb

758
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 2: and they covered for them, and they did it the

759
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: whole time, right up until the end. There was a

760
00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 2: final debate about, Okay, we've got this intelligence from Israel,

761
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: should we, on our way on the door do something

762
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,919
Speaker 2: that would be you know, basically a virtue signaling, because

763
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 2: we know the Trump administration is going to come in

764
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:44,839
Speaker 2: and they're going to completely reverse course on whatever we do.

765
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: But at least it would send a signal that you know,

766
00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 2: this is unacceptable and kind of lay a marker down

767
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 2: the way that Obama did when he let that settlement

768
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 2: vote get through the UN Security Chuncil, like this this

769
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,239
Speaker 2: is something. Then Biden did it on some other things.

770
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: He took cube off the like state sponsored terroor lists

771
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: or something like that to sort of like again, it's

772
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: like it's a signal of the direction they think foreign

773
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: policy should go in. And they said no even that,

774
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 2: because we're worried about you know, is the Harvard School

775
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: going to hire us? Then?

776
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 3: Is you know? Am I going to get my podcasts?

777
00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:13,840
Speaker 3: Am I?

778
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:14,040
Speaker 1: Yeah?

779
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: Am I going to be able to go to ask

780
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:18,279
Speaker 2: KDK as the chubby Indian guy?

781
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 1: Ultimately, it does not look like me to be there

782
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 1: who does not look like he doesn't he's just fat

783
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: and words. It's not fair. It's not fair. Okay, I

784
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: think it's actually think it's the glasses, That's what I

785
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: think it's. Yeah, anyway, yeah, he still has a job.

786
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, is that these guys.

787
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 3: They're calculus, I mean they're calculus. Was correct?

788
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,360
Speaker 1: And no, of course it was correct because it's Candy

789
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: and all of the Iraq war people. They're all doing

790
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 1: the exact same thing. Like it's like, I'm serious. I

791
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,360
Speaker 1: watch these people walk around town even today. Take a

792
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: stroll down K Street. You'll see Paul Wolfowitz, You'll see

793
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: all these guys. They have no shame. They live completely

794
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 1: normal light. Nothing happened to them. It's sick. Yeah, And

795
00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: now the next generation it's the same thing, and it

796
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: happens over over and over and over again. They'll be

797
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: on CSIS panels till the day they die. And it's

798
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 1: why does nobody pay a price that's being bad in

799
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: this country.

800
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 2: That's one of the things I appreciate about what Rocanna

801
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: said about Chuck Schumer today. He's like, not only did

802
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 2: he help march us into I Rock war, but he

803
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: gave net Yahoo a blank check. Like it's not an

804
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 2: accident that those two things are connected to. By the way,

805
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,880
Speaker 2: the people who tend to be for endless war are

806
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 2: always for endless war, like they're always this will set

807
00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 2: us up well for the next block talking about the

808
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: trillion dollar war machine. But in any case, I am

809
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,759
Speaker 2: somewhat hopeful that the logic the just cynical political calculus.

810
00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 2: When you see someone like Seth Molten coming out and

811
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: being like, I'm not going to take a pack dollars

812
00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: after he went to a pack and found out they

813
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 2: weren't going to give him any money, by the way,

814
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 2: but he sees the cynical political calculus. Now, if I'm

815
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: going to win a Democratic primary is to say no

816
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,600
Speaker 2: a pac money. That is an absolute sea change. So

817
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 2: we'll see how that translates into future American foreign policy,

818
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: how it translates into future position for the Democratic Party.

819
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: But this is, you know, the cover up here, just disgraceful.

820
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,160
Speaker 2: No one, no one who was involved in this should

821
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: ever be forgiven.

822
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: That's right, all right. We got our guest standing by

823
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 1: talk about the book Trillion Dollar War Machine. Let's get

824
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 1: to it. Joining us now is William Hurtungue. He is

825
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: a senior researcher at the Quincy Institute and is the

826
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,600
Speaker 1: author of this excellent new book, The Trillion Dollar War Machine,

827
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: How runaway military spending drives America into foreign wars and

828
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 1: bankrupts us at home. A very apt time to be

829
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,800
Speaker 1: joining us. Thank you very much, sir. We appreciate it.

830
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 9: Yes, thank you.

831
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 6: And I should point out my co author Ben Freeman

832
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,000
Speaker 6: Diella heavy lifting. Okay, he just put me on there

833
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 6: as a courtesy.

834
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: All right, Well, hopefully you can you can speak to

835
00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 1: the facts of the book.

836
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:43,399
Speaker 9: Just well.

837
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: I thought it was good to go ahead and start

838
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,759
Speaker 1: with Secretary of War Pete. He sat here saying that

839
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: the United States is now currently to a wartime footing,

840
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:56,160
Speaker 1: and how that fits a little bit potentially with your book.

841
00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: Let's take a listen to Petexsath.

842
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,840
Speaker 10: Not just buying something. We're solving life and death problems

843
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 10: for our warfighters. We're not building for peacetime. We are

844
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 10: pivoting the Pentagon and our industrial base to a war

845
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 10: time footing, building for victory should our adversaries.

846
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:20,399
Speaker 1: Fo all right, how does a wartime fitting fit here

847
00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,839
Speaker 1: with your book about the trillion dollar wars?

848
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 9: Partly which war in Venezuela is in China? That's pretty different.

849
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,320
Speaker 6: Well, what we point out is pretty much every president

850
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,360
Speaker 6: in the post World War two period has made noises

851
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,239
Speaker 6: about streamlining the Pentagon, better strategy, keeping us out of war.

852
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 6: They've pretty much all failed or gone back on those promises.

853
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 9: Oh sorry.

854
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 6: Donald Trump is an instant case because he said things

855
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:47,680
Speaker 6: on the campaign trail like I'm going to drive the

856
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:50,799
Speaker 6: warmongers out of Washington. I haven't had any wars, I'm

857
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 6: going to be a peacemaker. And yet you know we're

858
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 6: attacking boats off of Venezuela. There's a lot of tough rhetoric.

859
00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 6: There's a nuclear build up, So I think he's conflicted,

860
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:01,319
Speaker 6: partly because some of his base is sick of war

861
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 6: and he has to at least give a rhetorical you know,

862
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 6: bone to them. But uh, you know, we're at a

863
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 6: trillion dollars. Actually, there was concerned writing in the book

864
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 6: if it would get above a trillion will that was

865
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:12,480
Speaker 6: in production.

866
00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 9: So I said, well, we'll have stickers, you know.

867
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, our subscription one point trillion point trillion.

868
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 6: And I think, you know, it's such a we've messed

869
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 6: so much in that tool that there's a tendency to

870
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,359
Speaker 6: lean towards it. And I think there's also strategy. It's

871
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 6: not just about money. But you know, if we want

872
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 6: to have military primacy, fight wars all over the world,

873
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 6: it's going to be hard to go below that trillion,

874
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 6: especially when you got the tech folks Lockheed Martin fighting

875
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 6: over that pie.

876
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 9: The way to solve that is just increasing.

877
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 6: Yeah, give them both a piece of golden dome fighter

878
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 6: plane and that's just going to be It's like a

879
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 6: sedimentary rock. You keep adding layers and you never make decisions,

880
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 6: and that's not really going to lead you to a

881
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:51,600
Speaker 6: viable strategy.

882
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you talk a little bit more about that

883
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,439
Speaker 2: internal logic because you know, you might think, Okay, Cold

884
00:41:56,480 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 2: War's over, maybe we can you know, reel back in

885
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: the military is betting that doesn't have it. It just

886
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 2: keeps going up and up and up with the war

887
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: on terror. Okay, we're on of Afghanistan now, maybe we

888
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 2: can reduce militaryes. Bet you no, just keeps going up

889
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: and up and up such that now, as you point out,

890
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 2: it's over a trillion dollars.

891
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 3: What is the internal logic.

892
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 2: That makes it so that we just continue to expand

893
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,000
Speaker 2: and expand and expand the military budget.

894
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 6: Well, I think if we go back to the end

895
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 6: of the Cold War, Colin Pouse said, I'm paraphrasing, I'm

896
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:25,360
Speaker 6: running out of enemies here. Yes, I got Cube, I

897
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 6: got North Korea. So they came up with this two

898
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 6: major contingencies strategy North Korea, Iran Iraq to at least

899
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 6: put a floor under depending on budget, and that tends

900
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 6: to happen. You know, as the War on Tear was

901
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 6: winding down, lots of writing about China as the new

902
00:42:41,840 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 6: pacing threat. Some of those reports written by people with

903
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 6: tight ties to the arms industry. I think for some

904
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 6: it's just a marketing technique, say China get money. Other

905
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 6: these believe it.

906
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 9: But if you're in China you can tell the difference,

907
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:54,760
Speaker 9: of course.

908
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:56,239
Speaker 1: Right, Well, one of the things I always try to

909
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 1: focus on is that money doesn't equality is in fact,

910
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:01,800
Speaker 1: that might be the central kind of element of it,

911
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,760
Speaker 1: is that we keep pouring money into this broken system.

912
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:07,360
Speaker 1: But the actual output of let's say, the innovation of

913
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: its ability to let's say you end up in a

914
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: conflict with China, Does anyone really believe that the trillion

915
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,680
Speaker 1: dollar investment is going to materialize into something better? According

916
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 1: to even the Pentagon cutouts like CSIS, They're like, no,

917
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 1: we couldn't even win a warl like this, So why

918
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 1: what's the logic we keep pouring? Is it good money

919
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 1: after bad? Is it just the corruption?

920
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 6: Well, unfortunately it's more of a money making machine for

921
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 6: contractors than a well considered plan. The F thirty five

922
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,120
Speaker 6: is not performing as advertised. Congress keeps adding more. Some

923
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 6: people say aircraft care can be taken out by a

924
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 6: modern missile. We're building at thirteen billion dollars a pop.

925
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,560
Speaker 6: There was the tooral combat ship. Even the Navy didn't

926
00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 6: want it. They said it's not useful for China. Can't

927
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 6: defend itself. And it wasn't even about production. The places

928
00:43:49,640 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 6: that maintained it in Florida and Virginia kept those in

929
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 6: the budget. So if you're putting things in there because

930
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 6: it's built in my state or my district, that's not

931
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 6: a plan, right, and that's not going to build you

932
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 6: the best weapons. So Silicon Valley's coming and say, well,

933
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 6: we're different, and they're going to we're going to have

934
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 6: that fight. But my feeling is, well, Okay, if you

935
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 6: want to give us tools at work, that's fine, but

936
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:10,800
Speaker 6: don't tell me what our strategy should be.

937
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 9: Don't tell me what our priority should be. Nationally.

938
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 6: They're kind of there's a bit of hubris and kind

939
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,719
Speaker 6: of you know, we're the people that are going to

940
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 6: save humanity.

941
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 9: I'd rather they just were suppliers.

942
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,920
Speaker 2: Yes, right, Yeah, talk a little bit more about that

943
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:28,040
Speaker 2: dynamic between the legacy prime contractors, the Boeings, the Lockheeds

944
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: of the world and like the Palanteers and Palmer Lucky's

945
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 2: outfit of the world and how they're selling themselves and

946
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: you know what that could look like in terms of

947
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:40,840
Speaker 2: the budget, in terms of what it means for our

948
00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: national priorities.

949
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, Well, the Lockheed Martins are giving them a good

950
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,400
Speaker 6: argument because it's it's almost a monopoly. Five big companies

951
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 6: get a third of what the Pentagon spends and build

952
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 6: most of the weapons. They put Boeing in charge of

953
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 6: the new fighter plane, even though it's failed on every

954
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 6: major project for decades, probably just to keep them in business.

955
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 6: So so Palmer Lucky has a chief strategy officer, Christian

956
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 6: bros who's been talking about this for a long time,

957
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 6: and basically they have this same Well, they put a

958
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 6: like a pamphlet rebooting the arsenal democracy. It's quite a

959
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 6: good critique of the big companies and the kind of

960
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 6: sclerotic system. But they're overstating what they can do. They

961
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 6: are competitive and if they didn't have billionaires behind them,

962
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:23,920
Speaker 6: they never would have made it. They would have been

963
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 6: bought up by the big companies. So in that sense, fine,

964
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 6: shake it up. But the exchange is get rid of

965
00:45:29,040 --> 00:45:29,800
Speaker 6: all regulation.

966
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:31,200
Speaker 9: Trust us.

967
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 6: You know where the wave of the future technology will

968
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:38,080
Speaker 6: save us. That's never worked before. The electronic beatff in

969
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,759
Speaker 6: the Vietnam, the impervious Star Wars. The fact that we

970
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,440
Speaker 6: had precision guide ammunitions didn't win its wars in Irock

971
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,640
Speaker 6: and Afghanistan, so it's got to be motivated people the

972
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,600
Speaker 6: countries behind it. Strategy makes sense otherwise you can do damage,

973
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 6: but you can't. Technology itself is not going to win

974
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 6: you a ward, and they seem to be kind of

975
00:45:55,800 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 6: selling their technology as if it would.

976
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, if anything, technology is all is the folly and

977
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,359
Speaker 1: the promise that leads to reality where you're like, wait,

978
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,239
Speaker 1: these guid ammunitions mean nothing when you can't build, like

979
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: have a bullet that rolls off of a factory. As

980
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 1: you've looked at what's happening in Russia, he don't doesn't

981
00:46:13,040 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: require all that much technology. As long as you have

982
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 1: a decent industrial base, you can survive for.

983
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,480
Speaker 6: Well, they have an advantage because our stuff takes a

984
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 6: long time to build once you got rid of stocks.

985
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 6: Their stuff isn't great, but and our stuff takes a

986
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 6: long time, so Ukraine is like has to do it yourself.

987
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 6: Drone program, right, they take Chinese you know, commercial drones.

988
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 6: They put a camera and some weapons. There's suicide drones. Anyway,

989
00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 6: the don't have to be perfect, so they're kind of

990
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 6: falling back on low tech. Even though silicon vices their

991
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 6: technologies winning the war. A closer look would say otherwise.

992
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I totally agree. I heard my entire time here

993
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: in Washington. The fifth generation warfare will be unlike anything

994
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: you've ever seen. It will be about cyber It'll be

995
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 1: all about this where the next major conflict in Europe

996
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: looks more like World War One than it does like

997
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,760
Speaker 1: World War two. If anything, we've reverted backwards and costs,

998
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: you know, for all the stuff we boured money into

999
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to have yielded basically anything except a lot

1000
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 1: of profit for people who live in northern Virginia.

1001
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, and you know, then if you have a new situation,

1002
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 6: it's hard to address it. All that money is tied up,

1003
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 6: you know, if you wanted to move towards more nimble,

1004
00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:20,799
Speaker 6: cheaper systems. First of all, the Pentagon wants the best,

1005
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 6: and that costs more. Second of all, all these members

1006
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 6: are like not in my district. And then the guy

1007
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 6: here says, well, if you vote for my weapon, I'll

1008
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:32,520
Speaker 6: vote for your weapon. Suddenly you can't budget and you

1009
00:47:32,600 --> 00:47:37,240
Speaker 6: can't be agile. And it's also ultimately, you know, Congress

1010
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,759
Speaker 6: doesn't debate strategy anymore. The debate like, hey, isn't my

1011
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 6: weapon great? Which is shameful. I mean, they had a

1012
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,840
Speaker 6: whole report about what should our nuclear strategy be in

1013
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 6: the Center Army Service Committee. You know, the questions were like, well,

1014
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 6: we have a hypersonic missile that can you know, take

1015
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 6: out theirs? And don't we need more of those? Finally

1016
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 6: Center one said what all has cost? The co chair

1017
00:47:56,680 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 6: of the committee who was former lobbyist for North of

1018
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 6: grum and a big new Oh, cost is not an object.

1019
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 6: So they never discussed do we have enough? It was

1020
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,960
Speaker 6: just about money. And you know, the Congress is supposed

1021
00:48:07,960 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 6: to well, okay, we know, but it's supposed to be

1022
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:11,280
Speaker 6: a deliberative body.

1023
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 9: That's looking at the future of the country.

1024
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 6: They're tied up in this whole money game, so very

1025
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 6: few of them will speak out, and the ones who

1026
00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,120
Speaker 6: do can't bring enough folks behind them to move the needle.

1027
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 2: You know, how has this blocked down other potential priorities

1028
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 2: that perhaps American people.

1029
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:29,800
Speaker 6: Have, Well, you know, it's certainly a significant component in

1030
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,720
Speaker 6: the deficit, which is now close to being the interest

1031
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 6: on the debt is close to being the biggest item

1032
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 6: in the budget, so that's not available to us anymore.

1033
00:48:38,280 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 6: And then depending how you look at it, if you

1034
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 6: want to reduce the deficit, if you want to invest

1035
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 6: in other areas of medical research or environment, that's a shrinking,

1036
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 6: you know, window, especially with tax cuts. So some people

1037
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 6: would say, well, you know, we don't want the government

1038
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 6: to go big into public investment. But no matter how

1039
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,759
Speaker 6: you look at it, we just have very little flexibility

1040
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 6: as a country for any kind of change. And so

1041
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 6: in this we're lagging. And the extent we keep throwing

1042
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,359
Speaker 6: that trillion and more in, it's sort of like if

1043
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 6: you're a weightlifter, but you can't bring your arms below

1044
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,760
Speaker 6: your shoulders, you're not really equipped to fight anymore.

1045
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 9: Right, somebody knows how to box could take you out.

1046
00:49:15,680 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: Such a good point, So how do you get under control?

1047
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 2: I mean, you've got all these members of Congress who

1048
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 2: have their own individual incentives about this or that that

1049
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: effectively serves as a jobs program in their districts. You

1050
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 2: have a bunch of people making tons of cash. How

1051
00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: do you reshape this ecosystem?

1052
00:49:29,600 --> 00:49:32,120
Speaker 6: I think it's kind of a societal effort, because it's

1053
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 6: the whole lobby is kind of embedded in our society.

1054
00:49:35,080 --> 00:49:37,399
Speaker 6: But there's certainly people on the right who are tired

1055
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 6: of this. They don't like corporate welfare. They don't feel

1056
00:49:40,160 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 6: like we should be throwing this kind of money at

1057
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,839
Speaker 6: endless war. People on the left centrist know, if you're

1058
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 6: a military reformer, which we used to have one hundred

1059
00:49:47,280 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 6: people in that caucus, you know, build more reliable weapons,

1060
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,040
Speaker 6: train the troops better. They can't work through the system anyway.

1061
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 6: So I think you need kind of a coalition that says,

1062
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 6: all right, we know this doesn't work. Let's start by

1063
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,320
Speaker 6: fixing that, and then we can debate what our strategies

1064
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 6: to be. So that means more transparency, not letting people

1065
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,879
Speaker 6: go straight to industry from government and lobby for them,

1066
00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 6: or now to VC firms that invest in emerging tex

1067
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 6: So or like if you have a.

1068
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 9: Government commission, have some people aren't on the payroll, that

1069
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 9: would be novel.

1070
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 6: So I think it's a difficult process, and really people

1071
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 6: have to say, Okay, if defense is our top priority,

1072
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 6: let's do it right. So you know, it's public education,

1073
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 6: but people have to feel like they can make a difference,

1074
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 6: and there's a big deficit obviously in that. Now that's

1075
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 6: the problem across the board in terms of policy. So

1076
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:41,759
Speaker 6: I think it's almost like a large cultural shift. We've

1077
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 6: had those before, but you never know when it's going

1078
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 6: to come. But you have to at least have the information,

1079
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 6: have the arguments, and people have to look a little

1080
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 6: more broadly about where they get their information because the

1081
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Speaker 6: mainstream media, whatever their framing might be, they're just reducing

1082
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 6: coverage of this stuff. I mean, some papers don't have

1083
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 6: a real Pentagon report or they'd support when the budget

1084
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 6: comes out, and you know that we need a lot

1085
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 6: more than that.

1086
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Speaker 1: I totally agree. Everybody go buy the book Trillion Dollar

1087
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 1: War Machine. We'll have a link down in the description.

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00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, sir, Yes, thank you, Thanks

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Speaker 1: for watching.

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Speaker 9: Everybody.

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Speaker 1: We'll see tomorrow.