Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney, alongside
Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring
Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along
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Speaker 1: David Kats right now. He is the president and c
Speaker 1: i O at Matrix Asset Advisers affirmed that he uh
Speaker 1: co founded as well. Um, David, I wonder what you
Speaker 1: think about the inflation number. Obviously that's probably our top
Speaker 1: headline today. Six point eight percent year over year is
Speaker 1: a big, hefty number. But as I can't remember his
Speaker 1: Critty or Chinale, one of them was telling us earlier
Speaker 1: the month over month number was a little softer than
Speaker 1: maybe we expected. And also bad news. Looks like it's
Speaker 1: pretty good news for this market. Well, right now, all
Speaker 1: the news is good for this market. It's looking through
Speaker 1: a lot of things. You know, today's action a little
Speaker 1: bit surprising in terms of yields going lower, in stocks
Speaker 1: going higher on the worst inflation numbers since nine two. Um,
Speaker 1: we think what's happening is the market is looking through
Speaker 1: the current higher inflation. It was not worse than expectations,
Speaker 1: so people don't think it's going to cause the FED
Speaker 1: to change course. And from our perspective, while we do
Speaker 1: worry a lot about inflation, we think that it is
Speaker 1: going to calm down by next spring or summer under
Speaker 1: the three and a half percent level, so we don't
Speaker 1: think it derails the economy. Uh and interest rates will
Speaker 1: still say relatively low, so that's an okay environment for stocks.
Speaker 1: It's interesting that you say that any news is good
Speaker 1: news because I'm wondering if you could speak to the
Speaker 1: fear and the caution that still underpins this market. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, the market has been more volatile since September.
Speaker 1: You've had to five percent corrections, and that's more normal,
Speaker 1: and we think that's going to continue for some time.
Speaker 1: But at the moment, the market is looking through the
Speaker 1: negatives and focusing on the positives, and and the positives
Speaker 1: are pretty good. The economy is in very good shape,
Speaker 1: businesses are doing very well, Corporate earnings are coming in
Speaker 1: very nicely, and we think a significant driver of the
Speaker 1: stock market is there's just this enormous liquidity out there.
Speaker 1: There's just so much cash floating around, and as people
Speaker 1: throw that into stocks, that's just driving prices higher. So
Speaker 1: the key here from an investment perspective is not to
Speaker 1: chase the rallies. You know, we suggest putting money to
Speaker 1: work when you have these sell offs like you had
Speaker 1: in September or in the last month, rather than trying
Speaker 1: to throw money in after things have risen. Is do
Speaker 1: valuations not concern you here? Because we seem to be
Speaker 1: at a level where any little thing. For example, um,
Speaker 1: I think it was last Monday, we got a headline
Speaker 1: saying that an omicron case have been found in California,
Speaker 1: after we all knew that, oh Macron was out in
Speaker 1: the US. It wasn't a surprised and yet the market
Speaker 1: sold off. Right. The market is going to be pretty volatile.
Speaker 1: It's taking its cuse whether it's COVID news or FED
Speaker 1: news or government news. Either the market loves things or
Speaker 1: it hates things. So the key to being investor is
Speaker 1: just look beyond the day to day fluctuations. In terms
Speaker 1: of valuation, we think the overall market is modestly overvalued.
Speaker 1: We think many growth stocks are very significantly overvalued, and
Speaker 1: that's the area that we worry a lot about. The
Speaker 1: flip side is we think there are a lot of
Speaker 1: places that you can buy now and you should do
Speaker 1: well over the next twelve months, or a lot of
Speaker 1: areas like media, telecom, healthcare that have not done a lot.
Speaker 1: The businesses are doing well. Stocks are twelve thirteen times earnings.
Speaker 1: We think that's going to be the next place to
Speaker 1: make good money and do it in a lower risk way.
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I was with Scott Minor yesterday
Speaker 1: who is the CEO of Guggenheim big bond investor, and
Speaker 1: he was saying that I need to brag about it.
Speaker 1: We know who Scott Minor. It is. Well, you know
Speaker 1: one interesting thing he said to me, and we'll hear
Speaker 1: more about this next week, is that he thinks that
Speaker 1: the market is telling us that there are afraid of
Speaker 1: a policy mistake when it comes to the Federal Reserve.
Speaker 1: What do you think that really means, David? And do
Speaker 1: you agree with that? Well, I think the market, while
Speaker 1: it might be afraid, it's truly not acting that way
Speaker 1: in terms of bonds or stock. So I think the
Speaker 1: fet has actually done a very good job inflation is
Speaker 1: much hotter than they had originally anticipated. We think a
Speaker 1: lot of that is coming from the labor market and
Speaker 1: from the logistics problems caused by COVID, and we think
Speaker 1: both of those are going to come under better control
Speaker 1: in the next six months or so. So you know,
Speaker 1: we're in the camp where we really like what the
Speaker 1: FET is doing. Yes, they probably are a little bit
Speaker 1: late to starting to taper um, but we don't think
Speaker 1: it's going to derail the economy, and we think they
Speaker 1: should be given a lot of credit for navigating a
Speaker 1: really difficult economic environment over the last two years. Almost
Speaker 1: seemed like they had to be right. Pal was super
Speaker 1: devish until he was reconfirmed and and then he and
Speaker 1: then he was like, actually, you know what, I don't
Speaker 1: think it's going to be transits all right, Um, all right,
Speaker 1: So what do you like here, David? I mean, if
Speaker 1: when you wake up in the morning, what do you
Speaker 1: get pumped about? Or if you're if your best friend
Speaker 1: asked you at the bar, um you know where he
Speaker 1: should be investing? What do you tell him? So we like,
Speaker 1: as I'd mentioned, the media, telecom, healthcare financials. Probably our
Speaker 1: favorite two stocks right now would be Comcast, which was
Speaker 1: off this week on what we think was a misunderstanding
Speaker 1: of the company communications. Uh, it's gonna have very nice
Speaker 1: earnings in the next year. It sells a thirteen and
Speaker 1: a half times earnings, great long term business, so we
Speaker 1: like that here Viacom is doing all of the right things.
Speaker 1: They are going to become a streaming force of stock
Speaker 1: sales at under nine times earnings. The CEO and the
Speaker 1: chairwoman just bought a great deal of stock, yet it
Speaker 1: sells at year lows at a great price, three percent yield,
Speaker 1: So things like that are pretty interesting. On the banking side,
Speaker 1: we like MMT Bank in US Bank Corps. In the
Speaker 1: healthcare side, we like Amgen and zimmer which makes knee
Speaker 1: and him replacements, has done pretty poorly of late. We
Speaker 1: think as COVID normalizes, as the world gets back to normal,
Speaker 1: that stock easily is sixty company. You're buying it at
Speaker 1: a hundred twenty five today. All those companies that I
Speaker 1: mentioned are selling well below market multiple, so you're not
Speaker 1: paying twenty and twenty five times earnings for these good businesses.
Speaker 1: All right, David Um, great to get some time with you.
Speaker 1: Really appreciate your insight. Thanks very much. David Kax As
Speaker 1: the President and chief investment officer at Matrix Asset Advisers
Speaker 1: talking to us about the markets, the Fed, and inflation.
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Cleveland coming up now. We promised that we would
Speaker 1: talk about inflation again and he is the director and
Speaker 1: chief economist for Peyton and Right, Gal, Jeffrey, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. What is your expectation for
Speaker 1: next week given this elevated inflation number we have, I
Speaker 1: know it is in line with estimates, but it is
Speaker 1: still high. Yeah, it's the tricky it's a very tricky
Speaker 1: situation for the fom C. I think very high inflation,
Speaker 1: higher than you know, policy makers they expected for the year. Also,
Speaker 1: I have to issue a medical book much higher than
Speaker 1: I had anticipated for the year. So we were also
Speaker 1: wrong in our forecast. Um, But in recent months looks
Speaker 1: like the market you know, expected higher inflation, was set
Speaker 1: up for that. So perhaps that's why you see the
Speaker 1: rally today. The taff for the Fed though, which is
Speaker 1: your question? They you know, they've delivered very explicit guidance
Speaker 1: on when they might lift off, right they say maximum employment,
Speaker 1: so um, with inflation very very high. Question is are
Speaker 1: they going to relax or somehow alter how they define
Speaker 1: maximum employment to say that, you know, we are much
Speaker 1: closer to it with you know, quit rates very high,
Speaker 1: with job opening is very high, with the unemployment rate
Speaker 1: at four? Is that close enough to open the door
Speaker 1: for liftoff? Um. That's that's the thing that they have
Speaker 1: to wrestle with. It's the key thing in my mind. Um.
Speaker 1: I I still think we're not at full employment or
Speaker 1: close to maximum employment in my view, what given where
Speaker 1: inflation is, maybe they adjust that their their take. I mean,
Speaker 1: if we're not at maximum employment, how is it that
Speaker 1: we saw fewer jobless claims UM this week than any
Speaker 1: time since Richard Nixon was president? Yeah? I think it
Speaker 1: all depends on how you define maximum right, which they
Speaker 1: did not give us an explicit, uh no numerical definition.
Speaker 1: But for me, you know, I look at I look
Speaker 1: at that, and it's great. We have very few layoffs,
Speaker 1: so that's good news. We have a labor force participation,
Speaker 1: right though, Matt, that's sixty one eight. We were on
Speaker 1: labor force participation over sixty three UM pre COVID. So yeah,
Speaker 1: some of those people probably retired early, but not all
Speaker 1: of those folks. You know, when you look at that
Speaker 1: chart of labor force. What is your view, Jeffrey of
Speaker 1: the great resignation? Um, I've We've written a story about it.
Speaker 1: Every major media outlet has has tried to figure out
Speaker 1: what's going on here. So many people are telling me,
Speaker 1: you know what, the kids are just uh fed up.
Speaker 1: They're just not getting paid enough to keep up with
Speaker 1: rising prices and they just are quitting. Is that how
Speaker 1: you see it? Too? Well? Where do you see a
Speaker 1: lot of the quicks in the data? Okay, it's it
Speaker 1: tends to be in some of the lower wage industries,
Speaker 1: so things like food service, bars and restaurants. So that
Speaker 1: could be just a situation where there are some better
Speaker 1: wage options that um, you know different employers and people
Speaker 1: are making the jump, like to be something like that.
Speaker 1: We looked yesterday, you know at the job openings data.
Speaker 1: Where are all the job openings available that that people
Speaker 1: can jump to the biggest increase in job openings since
Speaker 1: COVID began. You've got you know the reason on hospitality,
Speaker 1: which is of course where we saw the most job losses.
Speaker 1: So if we are coming out of this pandemic, it's
Speaker 1: not that unusual to see those job openings rise, but
Speaker 1: then also matt, manufacturing, trade, warehouse, all those areas that
Speaker 1: are tied in very closely to meeting the demand for
Speaker 1: goods that we've seen. We've seen this huge surge from
Speaker 1: consumers in the last eighteen months in demand for goods,
Speaker 1: and there's there's been a lot of job openings and
Speaker 1: hiring in that area. To me, though, that's really pandemic,
Speaker 1: unique to the pandemic. Once consumer spending normalizes, people go
Speaker 1: back to spending more on services less on goods. I mean,
Speaker 1: how many how many home jims do you need? Matt,
Speaker 1: The spending patterns will change, and then maybe demanding those
Speaker 1: industries will change, job openings will come down, So it
Speaker 1: could be some noise in the quits data and also
Speaker 1: in the job opening to right. I'm really curious here
Speaker 1: about labor as well, because we did see that news
Speaker 1: coming out of Starbucks and the union vote, and I'm
Speaker 1: wondering if we're going to see more like this. Are
Speaker 1: we going to see more unionization, more strikes, more people
Speaker 1: that are asking for more um as this labor market changes. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, one thing we've learned over the years is
Speaker 1: when when the labor market gets hotter, Right, when you
Speaker 1: get the unemployment rate falls below five down to four.
Speaker 1: We think the unemployment rate will get to three point
Speaker 1: five next year. That's great for labor. That is usually
Speaker 1: great for the broad swath labor market. Um, so it
Speaker 1: does tip the scales if you will more in in
Speaker 1: favor of labor over over capital, which which as an
Speaker 1: employee I won't complain about. It just dawned on me that,
Speaker 1: I mean, mindset matters, right, You're the kind of person,
Speaker 1: Jeffrey who doesn't quit. You don't ever give up, as
Speaker 1: is obvious by the fact that you swam across the
Speaker 1: English Channel, the Catalina Channel, and around the island of Manhattan.
Speaker 1: But I wonder if there's a generation of kids now
Speaker 1: that has just said I can't I have had enough,
Speaker 1: I can't keep up. Yeah, or know there's there are
Speaker 1: other options available. So I think one interesting data series
Speaker 1: worth taking a look at, you know, of late is
Speaker 1: new business applications. So one of the predictions I think
Speaker 1: pre COVID was that capital wouldn't be available and then businesses,
Speaker 1: you know, would really suffer. But we've seen sort of
Speaker 1: a flourishing in new business applications through the COVID period.
Speaker 1: And even after here, So it could be that the
Speaker 1: entrepreneurial spirit in the US is alive and well and
Speaker 1: instead of working for the firm, you know, people can
Speaker 1: branch out and start their own operations, So that that
Speaker 1: could be a positive spin on this whole development. It's
Speaker 1: not necessarily a bad thing. Also a great point, Jeffrey,
Speaker 1: I love having you on. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Jeff Cleveland there is the director and chief economist over
Speaker 1: at Paydon and Regal. Next up, we have Marianne Miller.
Speaker 1: She's the vice president of Client Experience, vice president over
Speaker 1: Approve and she has the latest on cyber secure already
Speaker 1: amid this holiday shopping season, as we know that a
Speaker 1: lot of it is being done online. Marianne, thank you
Speaker 1: so much for joining us. What are some of the
Speaker 1: issues that you're most concerned about the season, Yes, a
Speaker 1: great UM, thank you, and it's great to be here
Speaker 1: with you and your audience today. UM. This holiday season
Speaker 1: is proving to be challenging for retailers, and I predict
Speaker 1: that I'm going to go on record here on your show,
Speaker 1: it's going to be the toughest here in history for
Speaker 1: retail loss prevention. UM. The pandemic really moved consumers to
Speaker 1: online retailers. We see continued other factors that are kind
Speaker 1: of continuing this trend this year. As this year closes
Speaker 1: and we're moving into um many of the factors that
Speaker 1: contributed to fraud during the pandemic. Importantly, the challenge of
Speaker 1: digital identity proofing are affecting re killers as well. But
Speaker 1: we also have some top headline fraud issues as well.
Speaker 1: And I'll yeah, I actually just got an email. I'm
Speaker 1: trying to sell a car here, and it's got an
Speaker 1: email from a captain in the U. S. Military. He's
Speaker 1: serving in Syria right now. He and his buddies just
Speaker 1: found six point two million dollars that they decided to
Speaker 1: keep instead, and now they're going to put it in
Speaker 1: a red cross box and send it to me. In return,
Speaker 1: I get fifteen percent, and all I need to do
Speaker 1: is send them a copy of my I D and
Speaker 1: my bank account details. It seems like a great deal.
Speaker 1: I don't want to miss out on it. Is there
Speaker 1: anything I should be concerned about? Yes, there's definitely things
Speaker 1: you should be concerned about. And that definitely sounds like
Speaker 1: a scam, and we know I gotta tell you Marian,
Speaker 1: I've had two two people saying that they found millions
Speaker 1: of dollars in boxes and wanted to send it to
Speaker 1: me by a Red Cross. This isn't the new like
Speaker 1: African Prince scam. I think, right, well, you know, when
Speaker 1: it's too good to be true, it's too good to
Speaker 1: be true. And and you know, if you look at
Speaker 1: some of the challenges that you see out there for
Speaker 1: consumers as well as retailers UM and you know a
Speaker 1: couple of things that we really want to focus on
Speaker 1: is UM. You know, the supply chain shortages are going
Speaker 1: to make fraud more prevalent. So fraudsters like to take
Speaker 1: advantage of you know, panicked online buying and setting up
Speaker 1: bake fishing sites to collect customers personal information and credit
Speaker 1: and debit card information. So just like you're experiencing Matt,
Speaker 1: there's just these you know, constant fishing attacks and these
Speaker 1: attacks of scamming are are are bringing consumers into the
Speaker 1: into the mix. And second, UM, the retailers have always
Speaker 1: had an element of shoplifting increased during the holiday, but recently,
Speaker 1: you know, the highly publicized sharp spikes and organized retail
Speaker 1: depth is putting stress on businesses. So this is increasing
Speaker 1: the cost of physical security insurance and and moves more
Speaker 1: shopping online and as retailers UM, you know, move more
Speaker 1: things off the shelves and in certain locations and move
Speaker 1: things online. And that's when we start to see the scams,
Speaker 1: Like you're starting to see an experience so and some
Speaker 1: so these UM law Enforcement task force have been set up,
Speaker 1: just a set up and retaining these activities. You know, Mary,
Speaker 1: unless look a couple of years into the future here
Speaker 1: real quick, because I'm wondering, if crypto continues to take off,
Speaker 1: does that make cybercrime easier or harder? Because in theory, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean you know, how does that really end up
Speaker 1: playing out? Well, you know, any time that there's something
Speaker 1: and you know, in the fraud community, we always look
Speaker 1: at any time there's something new UM and and fraudsters
Speaker 1: love that. Actors love a new product or something new,
Speaker 1: and they're definitely taking advantage of the crypto environment and
Speaker 1: you know, the the crypto exchanges and we know that
Speaker 1: UM there's a lot of focus on getting new signals
Speaker 1: in those environments to make them safer. UM like device
Speaker 1: intelligence and phone identity signals, biometrics, machine learning, all of
Speaker 1: that's really important, you know, to make you known environment
Speaker 1: where it's better lost controls. Marianne, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining us on this. It's going to be a
Speaker 1: scary holiday season in some regards. This is the Big Take,
Speaker 1: the best of Bloomberg's in depth, original reporting from around
Speaker 1: the globe. We're running on a financial system that's running
Speaker 1: on old technology. We're seeing prices reach fresh recordized. What
Speaker 1: unfolds in mid terms, we will no doubt see again
Speaker 1: in the next presidential election. The Big Take on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 1: All right, let's get to our Big Take story of
Speaker 1: the day. Paul and I love these stories, but I'm
Speaker 1: sure Sheinali does as well. They are deeply reported long
Speaker 1: reads that we have for you on the Bloomberg terminal,
Speaker 1: but are also available often in Bloomberg Business Week. Today.
Speaker 1: Cam Simpson joins us. He wrote a story about well,
Speaker 1: the title is the E. S. G Mirage, and it's
Speaker 1: about M S C. I can you say it's a
Speaker 1: bland Wall Street company, But I have always uh loved
Speaker 1: MSDU because they helped me um so easily sort through
Speaker 1: a number of different verticals in the market. Of course,
Speaker 1: I've been reporting on markets for twenty years. I've been
Speaker 1: using it for a long time. What's the link between
Speaker 1: this company and E s G. Yeah, that's that's right. Thanks,
Speaker 1: it's you know, but this is kind of like a
Speaker 1: back office function on Wall Street that nobody it's not
Speaker 1: like a really terribly sexy stock That's what we've and
Speaker 1: then the CEO of the company rebranded it around their
Speaker 1: E s G business. They aren't by far the dominant
Speaker 1: ratings provided for E s G investing, which as you know,
Speaker 1: has become a multi trillion dollar excuse me business and
Speaker 1: the and the fastest growing segment of the global financial
Speaker 1: services industry in just the past few years. And these
Speaker 1: guys in terms of retail funds that people are able
Speaker 1: to invest in their ratings probably or underneath at least
Speaker 1: and the money and retail funds. I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: even close between them and their next competitor. They just
Speaker 1: completely dominate the space. So he rebranded the company in
Speaker 1: two thousand nineteen, at the beginning of two nineteen when
Speaker 1: he saw this taking off under you know, a new motto,
Speaker 1: which was either better investments for a better world are
Speaker 1: better portfolios for a better world? Really trying to hammer
Speaker 1: on this idea that investing in the SG funds is
Speaker 1: going to help save the planet from climate change. And
Speaker 1: you know, this really took off when you know, it
Speaker 1: was marketed around the social justice movement and that was
Speaker 1: happening in America on the streets and also the pandemic
Speaker 1: and dire warnings about the climate crisis, and so uh,
Speaker 1: they're they're really MSCI is at the foundation of this
Speaker 1: whole boom in in in sustainable funds in America through
Speaker 1: and globally through through their ratings. Yeam, it's so interesting.
Speaker 1: And you know one fact, m sc I used to
Speaker 1: be a part of Morgan Stanley back in the day.
Speaker 1: They have gotten a lot of heat from fund managers
Speaker 1: for not doing more. What is the issue at play
Speaker 1: here between M s c I and it's E s
Speaker 1: G push or you know the lack thereof in summers regards. Well,
Speaker 1: I think I think you know the issue is that
Speaker 1: that E s G is pretty much exactly the opposite
Speaker 1: of what Wall Street marketing has led people to believe
Speaker 1: that it is right. So E s G ratings, M
Speaker 1: s c I, G s G ratings are particular, They're
Speaker 1: all different, they're all different brands of magic and they're
Speaker 1: not regulated, and they all every s g rader produces
Speaker 1: completely different results on like a credit rating. You know,
Speaker 1: m SCI uses the credit rating standards of triple A, a
Speaker 1: a trouble bb junk, the stuff that Wall Street knows
Speaker 1: and recognizes the only ones to keep that and they
Speaker 1: get in order of credibility from that um that that
Speaker 1: nobody else gets. But instead they're looking at is not
Speaker 1: like what it's going to make a better world. The
Speaker 1: lens that they're looking at specifically is what matters to
Speaker 1: the bottom line. It's not the impact of the company
Speaker 1: on the world, it's the impact of the world on
Speaker 1: the company. So when you look at climate change, you
Speaker 1: could be a massive producer of greenhouse gases, and unless
Speaker 1: you're in a business that's going to be regulated for
Speaker 1: greenhouse gases, which is pretty much just the utility industry,
Speaker 1: these won't even really impact your your bottom line in
Speaker 1: any in any near kind of way, and so they're
Speaker 1: not even considered your rating. McDonald's had greenhouse gas emissions
Speaker 1: equal to Portugal or Hungary and its supply chain, which
Speaker 1: is where most of that comes from, because it's one
Speaker 1: of the biggest beef purchasers in the world, and it
Speaker 1: weighs zero percent in in M s c I E
Speaker 1: s G rating of them, they got into s G rating.
Speaker 1: They're going in the s G upgrade when there are
Speaker 1: emissions going up significantly and and M s c I
Speaker 1: recalculated its environment scored to remove emissions completely. So what
Speaker 1: we did was we went through like all the upgrades
Speaker 1: in the S and P during this heery period of
Speaker 1: record growth for sustainable industy, and we looked at what
Speaker 1: was actually underneathy upgrades. We both bespoke database to really
Speaker 1: get under the hood of these ratings and see what
Speaker 1: they were. And we were pretty surprised. I mean, we
Speaker 1: didn't know this was a pure exercise like where is
Speaker 1: it actually coming from, what does it actually mean? So
Speaker 1: to discover that it was kind of the opposite of
Speaker 1: what was being what investors are being pitched on, what
Speaker 1: the world is being pitched on, it was really, really,
Speaker 1: really surprising to us, and hopefully we were able to
Speaker 1: show that in a way that is meaningful for people.
Speaker 1: And the interesting thing cam is when we talked to
Speaker 1: E s G investors, they say, you can't separate E
Speaker 1: s G from the bottom line because things like, um,
Speaker 1: you know, the diversity that you have in terms of
Speaker 1: management effect how well you do financially. If you have
Speaker 1: a more diverse board, you're likely to sell your stuff
Speaker 1: to a more diverse and a bigger group of people.
Speaker 1: I guess what you're saying is that it's not always
Speaker 1: the case that E s G leads to a better
Speaker 1: bottom line. No. I think that the problem is the
Speaker 1: problem is the way that E s G is marketed,
Speaker 1: especially to ordinary retail investors, the idea that you're doing
Speaker 1: something to make the world better, right like climate change.
Speaker 1: I think especially for millennials who have really been driving
Speaker 1: this boom, you know, that's what matters to them the most,
Speaker 1: and the biggest chasm between the marketing of E s
Speaker 1: G and what the ratings actually represent change. We have
Speaker 1: to leave it there, but we'll Devin be following this more.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That's Camp Simpson, who's part of
Speaker 1: the big take of the day regarding the E s
Speaker 1: G mirage. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast.
Speaker 1: You can subscribe and listen to interviews with Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or whatever podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Matt Miller three pt on fal Sweeney.
Speaker 1: I'm on Twitter at pt sweeney before the podcast. You
Speaker 1: can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Gradient