1 00:00:15,316 --> 00:00:24,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin. The other week, I was being pre interviewed for 2 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:28,516 Speaker 1: a chat with podcast Playlist with Leah Simone Bowen, a 3 00:00:28,596 --> 00:00:34,116 Speaker 1: CBC show that features yes podcasts, and a pre interview 4 00:00:34,756 --> 00:00:37,956 Speaker 1: is what some sophisticated shows do. They talk with a 5 00:00:38,076 --> 00:00:43,916 Speaker 1: guest before they record the conversation, so everyone has an 6 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:47,316 Speaker 1: idea of what's going on. You will not be surprised 7 00:00:47,316 --> 00:00:50,156 Speaker 1: to learn that we don't conduct pre interviews here on 8 00:00:50,236 --> 00:00:53,716 Speaker 1: not Lost Chat. So I was being pre interviewed and 9 00:00:53,756 --> 00:00:56,876 Speaker 1: the producer asked me who my favorite travel writers were, 10 00:00:57,796 --> 00:01:03,596 Speaker 1: and my mind went completely blank. The name Nabokov jumped 11 00:01:03,596 --> 00:01:06,556 Speaker 1: in my head, but as far as I know, he 12 00:01:07,156 --> 00:01:12,436 Speaker 1: never really wrote about travel. And then I found myself saying, MFK. Fisher, 13 00:01:13,076 --> 00:01:16,476 Speaker 1: but she was a food writer who did write about 14 00:01:16,956 --> 00:01:22,116 Speaker 1: France and California, but not really on the nose. Then 15 00:01:22,276 --> 00:01:25,556 Speaker 1: said something like, well, I don't really distinguish between what 16 00:01:25,796 --> 00:01:28,876 Speaker 1: types of things people write about. I just have favorite 17 00:01:28,876 --> 00:01:34,036 Speaker 1: writers something Millie Mouth like that, and for a moment 18 00:01:34,076 --> 00:01:37,036 Speaker 1: I realized how hard it is to be on the 19 00:01:37,076 --> 00:01:40,596 Speaker 1: other side of questions. It's funny when I interview someone, 20 00:01:40,676 --> 00:01:43,916 Speaker 1: I often think they just have to answer questions. They 21 00:01:43,956 --> 00:01:46,196 Speaker 1: don't have to think of questions, they don't have to 22 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: fake laugh that it's much easier on that side. But 23 00:01:49,596 --> 00:01:53,076 Speaker 1: that actually isn't really the case, and this pre interview 24 00:01:53,156 --> 00:01:56,556 Speaker 1: reminded me of that. So I lumbered through it all 25 00:01:56,716 --> 00:02:00,556 Speaker 1: and at the end the producer said something sassy like, well, 26 00:02:00,916 --> 00:02:02,676 Speaker 1: at least now you have an idea of what you're 27 00:02:02,676 --> 00:02:06,396 Speaker 1: going to be asked when we're conducting the interview, or 28 00:02:06,436 --> 00:02:13,396 Speaker 1: something like that. Then later in the day, as I 29 00:02:13,556 --> 00:02:15,716 Speaker 1: was coming home from work, walking through the park that 30 00:02:15,796 --> 00:02:20,516 Speaker 1: separates my apartment from the subway, a book title popped 31 00:02:20,556 --> 00:02:24,276 Speaker 1: into my head. Black Lamb and Gray Falcon by Rebecca West. 32 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:30,796 Speaker 1: This book which was written in nineteen thirty seven, when 33 00:02:30,876 --> 00:02:34,796 Speaker 1: Europe was descending into war and terror. It's this hulking 34 00:02:34,916 --> 00:02:39,796 Speaker 1: book about the former Yugoslavia, a place I've spent a 35 00:02:39,796 --> 00:02:44,996 Speaker 1: lot of time in, and the addition I have is 36 00:02:45,596 --> 00:02:49,716 Speaker 1: one thousand, one hundred and fifty pages long. It's the 37 00:02:49,796 --> 00:02:53,836 Speaker 1: size of a cornerstone of a mausoleum, which is appropriate 38 00:02:53,916 --> 00:02:56,916 Speaker 1: because you will kill yourself if you lug it around 39 00:02:56,956 --> 00:02:59,036 Speaker 1: on your travel for weeks on end, as I have. 40 00:02:59,676 --> 00:03:01,356 Speaker 1: If you were to drop it on your foot, you 41 00:03:01,396 --> 00:03:05,196 Speaker 1: would break your foot and lose any deposit you had 42 00:03:05,236 --> 00:03:09,876 Speaker 1: on your Airbnb. It's a real backbreaker. It is considered 43 00:03:10,076 --> 00:03:14,316 Speaker 1: rightly one of the best travel logs ever written. Rebecca 44 00:03:14,356 --> 00:03:19,316 Speaker 1: West herself was a towering journalist and cultural critic who 45 00:03:19,516 --> 00:03:23,156 Speaker 1: is also known for covering the Norremberg Trials for The 46 00:03:23,236 --> 00:03:26,156 Speaker 1: New Yorker and her type of writing in this book, 47 00:03:26,156 --> 00:03:28,356 Speaker 1: which it wasn't just a personal journey she traveled with 48 00:03:28,356 --> 00:03:32,676 Speaker 1: her husband, It wasn't just a dry history, it wasn't 49 00:03:32,756 --> 00:03:37,116 Speaker 1: just for portage, but it was her applying her prodigious 50 00:03:37,156 --> 00:03:40,036 Speaker 1: mind as she moved through this foreign land, trying to 51 00:03:40,116 --> 00:03:45,116 Speaker 1: understand something about human beings. And as it would turn out, 52 00:03:45,596 --> 00:03:48,516 Speaker 1: it became a document that gave just insight into this 53 00:03:48,596 --> 00:04:00,996 Speaker 1: moment in Europe before everything changed. So as pleased with myself, 54 00:04:01,036 --> 00:04:02,836 Speaker 1: I was like, great, when i sit for the actual 55 00:04:02,876 --> 00:04:06,396 Speaker 1: interview with podcast playlist, I'm going to name drop this 56 00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:10,996 Speaker 1: fantastic author, hit people to this cool book which maybe 57 00:04:11,036 --> 00:04:14,596 Speaker 1: they haven't heard of, helped raise the profile of this 58 00:04:14,676 --> 00:04:18,436 Speaker 1: wonderful author. And then when I sat down for the show, 59 00:04:20,396 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 1: I was never asked the question. I was asked about 60 00:04:24,076 --> 00:04:27,316 Speaker 1: the favorite places I visited. I was asked about Eddison Greer. 61 00:04:28,236 --> 00:04:31,276 Speaker 1: All perfectly fine, pleasant conversation, honored to be on the show, 62 00:04:31,676 --> 00:04:35,596 Speaker 1: but I felt like I was a suitor left holding 63 00:04:35,756 --> 00:04:39,556 Speaker 1: a bouquet of flowers behind my back with no opportunity 64 00:04:39,556 --> 00:04:46,756 Speaker 1: to present them until now Rebecca West, Ladies and gentlemen investigate. 65 00:04:47,476 --> 00:04:49,996 Speaker 1: And if she was alive today, I would have her 66 00:04:50,156 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 1: on this series, but she's not so Instead, this week 67 00:04:55,476 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 1: I've invited another fantastic female travel writer on the show, 68 00:05:00,356 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 1: Sheryl Straight, who walked one thousand miles up the Pacific 69 00:05:03,996 --> 00:05:06,916 Speaker 1: Coast Trail and wrote a book called Wild. We'll have 70 00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:09,756 Speaker 1: a conversation with her and then she'll also her etiquette 71 00:05:09,796 --> 00:05:30,516 Speaker 1: questions when Not Lost gets back. Welcome back to Not 72 00:05:30,636 --> 00:05:34,956 Speaker 1: Lost Chat, my series of conversations with fellow travelers. I'm 73 00:05:34,996 --> 00:05:38,636 Speaker 1: Brendan Francis, Newnham, and today I am talking with author 74 00:05:39,036 --> 00:05:45,196 Speaker 1: Cheryl Strade and conveniently for us, for me, Chryl's creative 75 00:05:45,236 --> 00:05:50,476 Speaker 1: life can be organized into two distinct categories that happened 76 00:05:50,516 --> 00:05:55,236 Speaker 1: to perfectly align with this show. The first is life advisor. 77 00:05:55,876 --> 00:05:59,556 Speaker 1: Charles spent years as an advice calumnist for online literary 78 00:05:59,596 --> 00:06:04,236 Speaker 1: magazine The Rumpus, where she answered questions anonymously in a 79 00:06:04,276 --> 00:06:08,036 Speaker 1: column called Deer Sugar, and then in twenty twelve, she 80 00:06:08,116 --> 00:06:11,396 Speaker 1: compiled some of her advice into a book of essays 81 00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:15,836 Speaker 1: called Tiny Beautiful Things, which became a bestseller and is 82 00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:20,916 Speaker 1: now being adapted into a TV show for Hulu. So 83 00:06:21,116 --> 00:06:23,556 Speaker 1: what I'm trying to say is Cheryl is a ringer 84 00:06:23,716 --> 00:06:26,756 Speaker 1: for our travel etiquette segment, which will be coming up 85 00:06:26,836 --> 00:06:30,196 Speaker 1: later in the show. But the main reason I wanted 86 00:06:30,276 --> 00:06:33,356 Speaker 1: to speak with Cheryl is because of her other creative identity, 87 00:06:33,676 --> 00:06:38,716 Speaker 1: that of travel memoirist. I think that's a word. A 88 00:06:38,756 --> 00:06:41,716 Speaker 1: few months before she published that collection of essays, she 89 00:06:41,836 --> 00:06:46,676 Speaker 1: published a book called Wild, which is about a year 90 00:06:46,716 --> 00:06:49,796 Speaker 1: in her early twenties when charl lost her mother to 91 00:06:49,876 --> 00:06:54,236 Speaker 1: lung cancer, divorced her first husband, started using heroin, and 92 00:06:54,276 --> 00:06:56,356 Speaker 1: then to get away from it all, she decides to 93 00:06:56,396 --> 00:06:59,876 Speaker 1: hike more than a thousand miles alone on the Pacific 94 00:06:59,916 --> 00:07:03,636 Speaker 1: Coast Trail. It makes the premise of not Last Season 95 00:07:03,676 --> 00:07:09,556 Speaker 1: one Like You Know, Elmo Travels Across Town Why became 96 00:07:09,556 --> 00:07:12,756 Speaker 1: a huge bestseller and a hit movie starring Reese Witherspoon, 97 00:07:13,676 --> 00:07:16,716 Speaker 1: and hiking the PCT and writing about it was a 98 00:07:16,796 --> 00:07:19,596 Speaker 1: journey of self discovery for chryl. So the first thing 99 00:07:19,636 --> 00:07:21,396 Speaker 1: I asked her when I met up with her was, 100 00:07:21,716 --> 00:07:24,516 Speaker 1: why do some of us have this impulse to just 101 00:07:24,596 --> 00:07:28,396 Speaker 1: start moving when big things happen to us. It's such 102 00:07:28,996 --> 00:07:32,116 Speaker 1: a great question. There are so many layers of answers 103 00:07:32,156 --> 00:07:34,676 Speaker 1: that I have to it. I think the first one 104 00:07:34,836 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: is just a very sometimes a very simple and kind 105 00:07:37,956 --> 00:07:42,236 Speaker 1: of surface impulse, which is to flee, to say, I 106 00:07:42,276 --> 00:07:46,996 Speaker 1: need to escape this, this sorrow or this situation or 107 00:07:47,036 --> 00:07:49,876 Speaker 1: this scene that I associate with things that hurt me. 108 00:07:49,916 --> 00:07:52,276 Speaker 1: I need to get out of here, get out of dodge, 109 00:07:52,276 --> 00:07:55,036 Speaker 1: as they say, right, we know that like when we 110 00:07:55,116 --> 00:07:59,516 Speaker 1: go venture out to parts unknown and to places that 111 00:07:59,596 --> 00:08:02,796 Speaker 1: maybe we feel kind of like an outsider or that 112 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 1: feel foreign to us, or we feel challenged in some 113 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:06,796 Speaker 1: way because we aren't at home, we aren't in the 114 00:08:06,796 --> 00:08:10,396 Speaker 1: comfort zone. We know that in those plays we're going 115 00:08:10,476 --> 00:08:14,316 Speaker 1: to get what we most need at those moments where 116 00:08:14,316 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 1: we feel lost or traumatized or adrift, and that is 117 00:08:18,836 --> 00:08:23,076 Speaker 1: a deeper understanding of who we are and what the 118 00:08:23,116 --> 00:08:26,556 Speaker 1: world is in our place in it. You know, when 119 00:08:26,556 --> 00:08:29,356 Speaker 1: we step outside that comfort zone literally, which we do 120 00:08:29,396 --> 00:08:32,916 Speaker 1: every time we travel, we have an opportunity to see 121 00:08:32,956 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: ourselves more clearly and the world more deeply. And do 122 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:40,436 Speaker 1: you think that comes from Is it that we are 123 00:08:40,556 --> 00:08:44,196 Speaker 1: away from our kind of patterns and the culture that 124 00:08:44,596 --> 00:08:47,276 Speaker 1: has defined us, or is it also we're away from 125 00:08:47,316 --> 00:08:49,276 Speaker 1: other people who kind of know us and have a 126 00:08:49,276 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 1: certain framework for processing us. I think it's both. You know, 127 00:08:54,116 --> 00:08:57,316 Speaker 1: the pattern thing is real. A pattern is essentially a habit, 128 00:08:57,516 --> 00:09:02,196 Speaker 1: and travel shakes us out of that literally from everything 129 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:05,556 Speaker 1: from very often the food we eat, to the landscape 130 00:09:05,556 --> 00:09:07,516 Speaker 1: we see when we look out the window or when 131 00:09:07,516 --> 00:09:10,116 Speaker 1: we go on a hike, to in the case of 132 00:09:10,116 --> 00:09:12,796 Speaker 1: foreign travel, even the language that we hear. Right, it's 133 00:09:12,796 --> 00:09:15,996 Speaker 1: just everything is different and it has a way of 134 00:09:16,036 --> 00:09:19,716 Speaker 1: waking us up because we have been broken out of 135 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:24,996 Speaker 1: that pattern. But I think something you say about being 136 00:09:25,076 --> 00:09:28,716 Speaker 1: different too because you're away from the people who know 137 00:09:28,796 --> 00:09:32,196 Speaker 1: you is really powerful as well, because, of course the 138 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:35,596 Speaker 1: people who know you, they're wonderful people. They love you, 139 00:09:35,636 --> 00:09:39,036 Speaker 1: and very often some of them, but we are very 140 00:09:39,076 --> 00:09:41,836 Speaker 1: often we rely on them to actually to know us, 141 00:09:41,836 --> 00:09:44,036 Speaker 1: to be known as a wonderful feeling. It makes us 142 00:09:44,076 --> 00:09:48,876 Speaker 1: feel secure and treasured and yes, sometimes awful. But you know. Generally, 143 00:09:49,036 --> 00:09:51,916 Speaker 1: the people we know make us feel known, right, and 144 00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:57,596 Speaker 1: that's a good feeling, but that can also turn, you know, 145 00:09:57,676 --> 00:10:00,956 Speaker 1: on itself, and we realize that sometimes the people we 146 00:10:01,076 --> 00:10:04,356 Speaker 1: know are the people who have in some ways defined 147 00:10:04,716 --> 00:10:08,916 Speaker 1: us in ways that we no longer find accurate, or 148 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:11,916 Speaker 1: sometimes that we even no longer want to be accurate. 149 00:10:12,196 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 1: For example, when I went alone on my Pacific Crest 150 00:10:16,316 --> 00:10:19,356 Speaker 1: Trail hike in the summer of nineteen ninety five, part 151 00:10:19,396 --> 00:10:21,996 Speaker 1: of it was getting away from this sort of group 152 00:10:22,036 --> 00:10:25,196 Speaker 1: of twenty somethings i'd sort of been hanging out with. 153 00:10:25,356 --> 00:10:27,956 Speaker 1: And I don't blame them for any of the self 154 00:10:27,996 --> 00:10:31,876 Speaker 1: destructive behavior I was doing at that time, drinking too much, 155 00:10:32,396 --> 00:10:37,196 Speaker 1: being wildly promiscuous, using heroin, you know, I don't put 156 00:10:37,236 --> 00:10:39,196 Speaker 1: any of that on the people I was around. And 157 00:10:39,276 --> 00:10:43,516 Speaker 1: yet those people were doing those things with me, and 158 00:10:43,556 --> 00:10:45,676 Speaker 1: they saw me as part of them, and I was like, 159 00:10:45,836 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 1: this isn't me, you know, this is not my life. 160 00:10:49,876 --> 00:10:53,876 Speaker 1: And part of my decision to adventure away and go 161 00:10:53,996 --> 00:10:57,196 Speaker 1: hike on the PCT was just saying like, I'm gonna 162 00:10:57,276 --> 00:10:59,956 Speaker 1: be different. I'm gonna put myself in different company. Now, 163 00:10:59,996 --> 00:11:02,276 Speaker 1: the company I put myself in was my own in 164 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:05,676 Speaker 1: the wilderness. Yeah, but you know, a similar thing can happen. 165 00:11:05,756 --> 00:11:07,276 Speaker 1: If I had had more money, I just would have 166 00:11:07,316 --> 00:11:11,996 Speaker 1: gone to Paris or something. So you hiked the trail 167 00:11:12,076 --> 00:11:15,396 Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety five when you were twenty seven, and 168 00:11:15,476 --> 00:11:18,396 Speaker 1: you published your memoir some years later when you're forty three. 169 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:21,356 Speaker 1: I'm wondering which was more of a demarcation point in 170 00:11:21,356 --> 00:11:24,676 Speaker 1: your life, the hike or writing the book and having 171 00:11:24,676 --> 00:11:28,956 Speaker 1: it be published. Well, without question, the hike, you know, 172 00:11:28,996 --> 00:11:31,516 Speaker 1: in my life was the demarcation point, you know. I 173 00:11:32,196 --> 00:11:36,876 Speaker 1: began the trail honestly, really really at the lowest point 174 00:11:36,876 --> 00:11:40,236 Speaker 1: in my life, really just feeling like what is my 175 00:11:40,356 --> 00:11:42,996 Speaker 1: purpose and who have I become? And what is my meaning? 176 00:11:43,796 --> 00:11:47,836 Speaker 1: And I didn't remember how strong I was. I didn't 177 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:50,796 Speaker 1: remember how brave I was. I didn't know how I 178 00:11:50,916 --> 00:11:53,036 Speaker 1: was going to make good on my dreams of becoming 179 00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:57,916 Speaker 1: a writer, you know. And on the course of that trip, 180 00:11:58,076 --> 00:12:01,396 Speaker 1: as I walked step by step, I sort of taught 181 00:12:01,436 --> 00:12:05,636 Speaker 1: myself the answers to all those questions. I taught myself, Oh, yeah, 182 00:12:05,676 --> 00:12:08,236 Speaker 1: you are strong, and not because you're like, you know, 183 00:12:08,716 --> 00:12:12,556 Speaker 1: so victorious or grand or triumphant, it's because you decide 184 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:14,796 Speaker 1: to keep going step by step even when it hurts. 185 00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:17,596 Speaker 1: And so, you know, when I got back finished my hike, 186 00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:21,196 Speaker 1: I then you know, went onward in my life in 187 00:12:21,236 --> 00:12:24,596 Speaker 1: a way that was different. And of course writing the 188 00:12:24,636 --> 00:12:27,956 Speaker 1: book was really powerful because it was like I got 189 00:12:28,036 --> 00:12:31,196 Speaker 1: to look back and essentially like I had to you know, 190 00:12:31,236 --> 00:12:33,076 Speaker 1: I had to tell the story and find the meaning 191 00:12:33,236 --> 00:12:35,396 Speaker 1: in the story, the meaning that wasn't just about my life, 192 00:12:35,396 --> 00:12:38,116 Speaker 1: but about what it means to be human. And so 193 00:12:38,236 --> 00:12:41,556 Speaker 1: of course that was also a very emotional journey. You know, 194 00:12:41,596 --> 00:12:45,076 Speaker 1: I learned a lot, but it didn't change my life 195 00:12:45,076 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 1: in the way that the hike itself did. Am I 196 00:12:47,916 --> 00:12:50,236 Speaker 1: missing out? Like there was an era where I did 197 00:12:50,396 --> 00:12:53,676 Speaker 1: some I worked at Elisa National Park, I did do 198 00:12:53,796 --> 00:12:57,476 Speaker 1: some out back hiking. I did encounter a bear, but 199 00:12:57,556 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 1: I'm kind of good with that. Like like I'm like, 200 00:13:00,756 --> 00:13:02,516 Speaker 1: I'm happy to look at the stars in the desert, 201 00:13:02,556 --> 00:13:04,796 Speaker 1: but then I like would like a martini at the 202 00:13:04,796 --> 00:13:07,916 Speaker 1: palms in so I can be missing out of some 203 00:13:08,156 --> 00:13:11,356 Speaker 1: fundamental life moments if I just kind of skip out 204 00:13:11,396 --> 00:13:15,436 Speaker 1: on the great outdoors from here. Yes, yes, damn yes 205 00:13:15,556 --> 00:13:17,516 Speaker 1: you are. I mean, though I have to say it 206 00:13:17,516 --> 00:13:19,716 Speaker 1: like I feel, I feel for you because I'm really 207 00:13:19,716 --> 00:13:22,676 Speaker 1: glad I did it when I was young, because it's 208 00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:24,756 Speaker 1: a lot easier. I mean, that's what That's what I've 209 00:13:24,756 --> 00:13:26,596 Speaker 1: amazed as me, Brendan. I'd like look back at that 210 00:13:26,676 --> 00:13:30,676 Speaker 1: t and I'm like, I slept every night, you know, 211 00:13:30,716 --> 00:13:33,356 Speaker 1: on the ground, just on the hard ground, right, you know. 212 00:13:33,796 --> 00:13:35,396 Speaker 1: Now it's like, Okay, I got to have a tech 213 00:13:35,476 --> 00:13:37,756 Speaker 1: repedic bed and like four pillows in the suit of 214 00:13:37,756 --> 00:13:41,116 Speaker 1: a certain arrangement and a sleep mask. You know, it's 215 00:13:41,156 --> 00:13:43,956 Speaker 1: just amazing how rough and tumble I was. But but 216 00:13:44,076 --> 00:13:46,116 Speaker 1: here's the deal with that. And I think that this 217 00:13:46,196 --> 00:13:51,436 Speaker 1: is a larger truth about travel is that, you know, 218 00:13:51,516 --> 00:13:54,036 Speaker 1: maybe it's doing what I did and sleeping in the 219 00:13:54,076 --> 00:13:56,796 Speaker 1: dirt in the wilderness for days on end, and really 220 00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:59,156 Speaker 1: being in a situation where you know, there were no 221 00:13:59,236 --> 00:14:01,796 Speaker 1: luxuries at all. The extreme, you know, let's put it 222 00:14:01,796 --> 00:14:03,516 Speaker 1: this way. When I would when I would come to 223 00:14:03,636 --> 00:14:06,316 Speaker 1: you know, those those campgrounds in the woods where there's 224 00:14:06,356 --> 00:14:09,596 Speaker 1: like an out house. If I came to a campground 225 00:14:09,596 --> 00:14:12,476 Speaker 1: that had an outhouse like which in normal life most 226 00:14:12,476 --> 00:14:14,796 Speaker 1: people are really repulsed by, I felt like I was 227 00:14:14,836 --> 00:14:17,236 Speaker 1: like the Queen of England because I got to actually sit, 228 00:14:17,996 --> 00:14:21,956 Speaker 1: you know, instead of squatting in the dirt, which I 229 00:14:21,996 --> 00:14:24,836 Speaker 1: normally did. But you know, I think that that being 230 00:14:25,596 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 1: really uncomfortable almost always is a really great teacher for us. 231 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:35,636 Speaker 1: The times that we have to endure, the times that 232 00:14:35,676 --> 00:14:38,076 Speaker 1: we have to suffer, the times that we have to 233 00:14:38,156 --> 00:14:41,556 Speaker 1: keep going even when it hurts, those are the times 234 00:14:41,756 --> 00:14:44,556 Speaker 1: that build us and that make us that I think 235 00:14:44,596 --> 00:14:47,676 Speaker 1: deep in any trip, and of course, you know, my 236 00:14:47,756 --> 00:14:50,036 Speaker 1: hike in the PCT was one end of the spectrum, 237 00:14:50,116 --> 00:14:53,956 Speaker 1: like quite quite difficult, but even just little things like 238 00:14:54,076 --> 00:14:57,556 Speaker 1: last summer, my husband and I we went to Europe 239 00:14:57,556 --> 00:14:59,956 Speaker 1: for seven weeks and we had this whole trip like 240 00:15:00,196 --> 00:15:04,076 Speaker 1: planned from France to Wales to Greece to you know, 241 00:15:04,116 --> 00:15:06,996 Speaker 1: all through all through central Europe and you know, up 242 00:15:07,036 --> 00:15:08,676 Speaker 1: the Danube and all of these things. We were doing 243 00:15:08,716 --> 00:15:11,516 Speaker 1: all these things, and our bags never made it with 244 00:15:11,636 --> 00:15:16,516 Speaker 1: us and we got COVID. So it was like, Okay, 245 00:15:17,596 --> 00:15:20,796 Speaker 1: this isn't fun, this is hard, and we are uncomfortable 246 00:15:20,996 --> 00:15:24,476 Speaker 1: and in a foreign place. And it reminded me of 247 00:15:24,556 --> 00:15:27,156 Speaker 1: some of those lessons I learned on the PCT, that 248 00:15:27,196 --> 00:15:31,276 Speaker 1: those are the things that sometimes make the trip more interesting. Yeah, 249 00:15:31,316 --> 00:15:33,756 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe I shouldn't say this as the host 250 00:15:33,796 --> 00:15:35,956 Speaker 1: of a travel show, but it's also you can just 251 00:15:35,996 --> 00:15:39,676 Speaker 1: live in New York. You can endure great difficulty every 252 00:15:39,756 --> 00:15:43,516 Speaker 1: day and see the worst of humanity and still you know, 253 00:15:43,756 --> 00:15:47,556 Speaker 1: get stronger hopefully. Question Mark. Absolutely, you know, I think 254 00:15:47,596 --> 00:15:51,716 Speaker 1: that there is no city more like the wilderness the 255 00:15:51,836 --> 00:15:55,756 Speaker 1: New York City. I remember very clearly feeling that way 256 00:15:55,796 --> 00:15:57,636 Speaker 1: about it. You know, every time I go to New 257 00:15:57,716 --> 00:15:59,516 Speaker 1: York City, it's like, this is like the wilderness because 258 00:15:59,516 --> 00:16:04,716 Speaker 1: it's just so it's everything. It's it's everything, and you're 259 00:16:04,716 --> 00:16:08,276 Speaker 1: both very connected and very alone, just like you are 260 00:16:08,276 --> 00:16:11,076 Speaker 1: on the wilderness. Um so, so yeah, we're talking about 261 00:16:11,076 --> 00:16:13,916 Speaker 1: wild You. Then, you know your book Tiny Beautiful Things, 262 00:16:13,996 --> 00:16:16,396 Speaker 1: your column Dear Sugar, which you now do a sub 263 00:16:16,436 --> 00:16:19,756 Speaker 1: stack called Deer Sugar. It's now Tiny Beautiful Things, which 264 00:16:19,796 --> 00:16:22,436 Speaker 1: is a collection from some of the early days of 265 00:16:22,836 --> 00:16:25,756 Speaker 1: your advice column, is now being turned into a TV show. 266 00:16:25,836 --> 00:16:29,716 Speaker 1: And just read Sorrying Catherine Han like, holy cow, yes, 267 00:16:29,796 --> 00:16:33,476 Speaker 1: would could you picked the better person? That's incredible? Well, 268 00:16:33,476 --> 00:16:35,596 Speaker 1: my question is do people ever ask you questions about 269 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:37,876 Speaker 1: journeys or traveling? Oh that as you do this in 270 00:16:37,956 --> 00:16:41,276 Speaker 1: all sorts of forms. That's interesting. You know. In the 271 00:16:41,476 --> 00:16:44,956 Speaker 1: in the intervening years, Steve Almond den I had a 272 00:16:44,996 --> 00:16:48,196 Speaker 1: podcast called Deer Sugars and it's an advice podcast. People 273 00:16:48,196 --> 00:16:51,156 Speaker 1: wrote us letters and one thing that came up very often, 274 00:16:51,836 --> 00:16:53,756 Speaker 1: I mean more than you would gas around it. It's 275 00:16:53,796 --> 00:16:59,236 Speaker 1: like people are really conflicted about, um, location, like should 276 00:16:59,276 --> 00:17:01,996 Speaker 1: I move. There was this one woman I'll never forget 277 00:17:01,996 --> 00:17:05,396 Speaker 1: on the podcast. She went to Paris and met some 278 00:17:05,476 --> 00:17:08,396 Speaker 1: like fabulous man and she was like, we fell in 279 00:17:08,436 --> 00:17:11,196 Speaker 1: love and to Paris and be with him. And I 280 00:17:11,276 --> 00:17:15,676 Speaker 1: was like, of course you should. And Steve was like, oh, 281 00:17:15,716 --> 00:17:17,396 Speaker 1: you know, be careful in this and that. The other 282 00:17:17,476 --> 00:17:20,316 Speaker 1: thing I'm like, I'm like, no, go, go go, and um, 283 00:17:20,556 --> 00:17:22,596 Speaker 1: you know, I remember to a letter from somebody who 284 00:17:22,636 --> 00:17:25,036 Speaker 1: met some hot Italian young man on the beach and 285 00:17:25,116 --> 00:17:27,796 Speaker 1: data fling and I don't remember what she was asking 286 00:17:27,836 --> 00:17:30,676 Speaker 1: about it, but I was always like, I'm always on 287 00:17:30,716 --> 00:17:36,676 Speaker 1: the side of taking risks that involve venturing out, you know, 288 00:17:36,796 --> 00:17:39,076 Speaker 1: And I do think that it is something that a 289 00:17:39,076 --> 00:17:41,556 Speaker 1: lot of people grapple with. And another thing that I 290 00:17:41,636 --> 00:17:43,876 Speaker 1: know has come up for people sometimes is like you know, 291 00:17:44,036 --> 00:17:47,076 Speaker 1: is travel a good investment. Is this a good way 292 00:17:47,076 --> 00:17:49,796 Speaker 1: to spend your money? Or should you be practical? Like 293 00:17:50,156 --> 00:17:52,396 Speaker 1: I could put you know, ten thousand dollars in this 294 00:17:52,556 --> 00:17:56,036 Speaker 1: savings account that I will have in my retirement, or 295 00:17:56,076 --> 00:17:58,956 Speaker 1: I can take ten thousand dollars you know, to Kenya 296 00:17:59,036 --> 00:18:01,876 Speaker 1: and I'll just tell you I've always been the person 297 00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:05,796 Speaker 1: who will say go to Kenya. Definitely, absolutely definite. I 298 00:18:05,836 --> 00:18:08,396 Speaker 1: feel like as I when I was younger, you know, 299 00:18:08,516 --> 00:18:12,396 Speaker 1: corrupted by you know, Jack Carowake, etc. I was running 300 00:18:12,396 --> 00:18:14,676 Speaker 1: around the Gamaniac. But now as I'm older, it's even 301 00:18:14,716 --> 00:18:17,036 Speaker 1: more I'm feeling more urgency to see everything I can 302 00:18:17,116 --> 00:18:20,196 Speaker 1: and and kind of not not because I feel like 303 00:18:20,276 --> 00:18:22,196 Speaker 1: I'm going to miss out, but because I just know 304 00:18:22,916 --> 00:18:25,636 Speaker 1: that I want to experience all, you know, all the things, 305 00:18:25,716 --> 00:18:28,156 Speaker 1: and that our time is a little more limited than 306 00:18:28,196 --> 00:18:30,476 Speaker 1: maybe we think when we're in our twenties. I see 307 00:18:30,516 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 1: it the same way like I can tell that you're 308 00:18:32,476 --> 00:18:36,116 Speaker 1: really a kindred spirit when it comes to this way 309 00:18:36,156 --> 00:18:38,476 Speaker 1: of thinking, is I do I actually do think of 310 00:18:38,516 --> 00:18:42,876 Speaker 1: it as an investment, you know that, like travel has 311 00:18:42,996 --> 00:18:48,196 Speaker 1: really improved, like it's it's improved my well being. I 312 00:18:48,196 --> 00:18:50,636 Speaker 1: think I'm a better writer because of travel. I think 313 00:18:50,636 --> 00:18:52,796 Speaker 1: I'm a better person because of travel. I think I'm 314 00:18:52,796 --> 00:18:55,836 Speaker 1: a better parent because of travel. And you know, it 315 00:18:55,876 --> 00:19:00,036 Speaker 1: doesn't feel like just like vacation. You know, usually it's 316 00:19:00,116 --> 00:19:03,636 Speaker 1: about having some kind of adventure or having some kind 317 00:19:03,676 --> 00:19:06,996 Speaker 1: of going on a journey that's about something deeper than 318 00:19:07,636 --> 00:19:09,876 Speaker 1: just seeing the sights and and I believe in that 319 00:19:10,156 --> 00:19:12,636 Speaker 1: something that maybe everyone knows and thinks about this with you, 320 00:19:12,676 --> 00:19:15,636 Speaker 1: but I didn't realize until I was revisiting your work. 321 00:19:16,076 --> 00:19:19,116 Speaker 1: And forgive me for being such a ding that, but 322 00:19:19,236 --> 00:19:22,676 Speaker 1: um strayed is your You chose that name, that's right, 323 00:19:23,076 --> 00:19:25,916 Speaker 1: which to me, like again, for maybe there's even people 324 00:19:25,996 --> 00:19:28,116 Speaker 1: encounter you with tiny beautiful things and just assume that 325 00:19:28,116 --> 00:19:30,396 Speaker 1: your god given name. Can you remind us why you 326 00:19:30,516 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 1: chose it? Yeah? So I was born Cheryl Nyland. My 327 00:19:34,596 --> 00:19:36,916 Speaker 1: father's last name was Nyland, and that's what I was 328 00:19:36,956 --> 00:19:40,396 Speaker 1: as a kid. And I got married just like scandalously young, 329 00:19:40,956 --> 00:19:43,916 Speaker 1: no regrets in terms of like, I absolutely loved my 330 00:19:43,956 --> 00:19:46,076 Speaker 1: first husband, so that was good. But you know, we 331 00:19:46,076 --> 00:19:49,516 Speaker 1: were just young in love and you know, for reasons 332 00:19:49,596 --> 00:19:53,076 Speaker 1: that are really crazy and useful, we decided to get married. 333 00:19:53,076 --> 00:19:55,116 Speaker 1: We should have just fitting each other's boyfriend and girlfriend. 334 00:19:55,156 --> 00:19:56,596 Speaker 1: But we decided to get married and we took on 335 00:19:56,636 --> 00:19:58,796 Speaker 1: each other's names because we were like, we're going to 336 00:19:58,876 --> 00:20:00,996 Speaker 1: be really feminist about it, and I'm going to take 337 00:20:00,996 --> 00:20:02,236 Speaker 1: on your name, and you're gonna take a mine, and 338 00:20:02,236 --> 00:20:04,876 Speaker 1: we're gonna have this really long name that was Nyland 339 00:20:04,916 --> 00:20:09,236 Speaker 1: litig Well. And so when we got divorced, when I 340 00:20:09,276 --> 00:20:12,996 Speaker 1: was like twenty five, I knew that I didn't want 341 00:20:12,996 --> 00:20:15,156 Speaker 1: to go back to being Cheryl n Island. I was 342 00:20:15,316 --> 00:20:17,476 Speaker 1: estranged for my dad since I was a young child. 343 00:20:17,516 --> 00:20:19,836 Speaker 1: He was, you know, not a great dad. He was 344 00:20:19,876 --> 00:20:22,076 Speaker 1: abusive and just not a good force in my life. 345 00:20:22,436 --> 00:20:24,756 Speaker 1: And I knew I couldn't drag around this long hyphenated 346 00:20:24,836 --> 00:20:27,956 Speaker 1: name from my marriage. And of course I'm a writer, 347 00:20:28,236 --> 00:20:31,756 Speaker 1: you know, I'm somebody who thinks a lot about words 348 00:20:31,756 --> 00:20:34,156 Speaker 1: and a lot about language. And so, and my mom 349 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:36,316 Speaker 1: was dead. I was really an orphan. I didn't have 350 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:38,316 Speaker 1: a father, I didn't have a mother, I didn't have 351 00:20:38,476 --> 00:20:42,676 Speaker 1: really anything except my own life. And I knew that 352 00:20:43,236 --> 00:20:46,076 Speaker 1: I needed to move into this new life with a 353 00:20:46,156 --> 00:20:49,716 Speaker 1: word that would be that would become mine, that would 354 00:20:49,756 --> 00:20:52,556 Speaker 1: be become my true name. I spent a lot of 355 00:20:52,556 --> 00:20:55,236 Speaker 1: time thinking about it wasn't just some sort of spontaneous thing. 356 00:20:55,756 --> 00:20:59,156 Speaker 1: I really thought about different words that might define or 357 00:20:59,156 --> 00:21:02,276 Speaker 1: communicate to myself in the world who I was. And 358 00:21:02,316 --> 00:21:06,516 Speaker 1: I came upon this word strade, and I loved the 359 00:21:06,596 --> 00:21:08,796 Speaker 1: meaning of it. You know, it really is somebody who 360 00:21:09,276 --> 00:21:14,036 Speaker 1: who moves through the world, motherless and fatherless, somebody who 361 00:21:14,276 --> 00:21:18,156 Speaker 1: strays off the regular path and finds their way. I 362 00:21:18,196 --> 00:21:19,756 Speaker 1: think a lot of people hear that word straight and 363 00:21:19,796 --> 00:21:22,156 Speaker 1: they think like, I was somebody who's lost, And for me, 364 00:21:22,276 --> 00:21:25,156 Speaker 1: I think it's really somebody who sort of has to 365 00:21:25,196 --> 00:21:27,956 Speaker 1: blaze their own trail. And when my husband and I 366 00:21:27,996 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 1: got divorced, just on the divorce paperwork, you could write 367 00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:32,996 Speaker 1: in this form my name after this divorce will be 368 00:21:33,716 --> 00:21:37,076 Speaker 1: and I just wrote Cheryl Straight, and that's who I, 369 00:21:37,956 --> 00:21:41,196 Speaker 1: you know, became. And what's so funny and interesting to me, Brendon, 370 00:21:41,236 --> 00:21:44,156 Speaker 1: as so many people who ask about the name, We're like, well, Straight, 371 00:21:44,276 --> 00:21:46,636 Speaker 1: isn't your real name? And it's like it is. It's 372 00:21:46,876 --> 00:21:49,076 Speaker 1: It's the realist name I've ever had, you know, Like 373 00:21:49,116 --> 00:21:51,436 Speaker 1: when women get married and take on their husband's name, 374 00:21:51,476 --> 00:21:54,836 Speaker 1: like nobody says like, well, that's not your real name. Yeah. 375 00:21:54,876 --> 00:21:58,116 Speaker 1: I particularly like how the words strayed, you know. I 376 00:21:58,156 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 1: think initially the connotation people think, yeah, something like a 377 00:22:02,036 --> 00:22:05,516 Speaker 1: stray cat, it's something abandoned, But there's a much broader 378 00:22:05,556 --> 00:22:08,436 Speaker 1: definition about someone who kind of goes off the beaten path, 379 00:22:09,276 --> 00:22:11,316 Speaker 1: fears away. And I like how you own that and 380 00:22:11,356 --> 00:22:14,876 Speaker 1: then by the force of your success, that word is 381 00:22:14,916 --> 00:22:19,916 Speaker 1: in every bookstore. You know, it's one movie screen, you know, 382 00:22:19,996 --> 00:22:22,196 Speaker 1: like you you really you took it and made it 383 00:22:22,276 --> 00:22:26,876 Speaker 1: your own. Love that my name is a sentence. I 384 00:22:26,996 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 1: love that. I love that. I'm going to have to 385 00:22:28,876 --> 00:22:31,436 Speaker 1: think about what my name would be if I were 386 00:22:31,556 --> 00:22:35,956 Speaker 1: to name myself, it would probably be something like Brendan Knapps, 387 00:22:36,316 --> 00:22:38,916 Speaker 1: Brendan Snacks. I'm gonna I'm gonna need to workshop it. 388 00:22:39,436 --> 00:22:42,116 Speaker 1: In the meantime, we're gonna take a quick break. But 389 00:22:42,236 --> 00:22:44,636 Speaker 1: when I come back, hopefully you will help me answer 390 00:22:44,636 --> 00:23:04,196 Speaker 1: some travel questions. Stick around. Welcome back to Not Lost 391 00:23:04,236 --> 00:23:07,756 Speaker 1: Chat Today. My guest is writer Chryl Straight and Chryl 392 00:23:08,156 --> 00:23:10,916 Speaker 1: on this show, like my old show, which you also visited, 393 00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:14,956 Speaker 1: we solicit etiquette questions, travel etiquette questions, and when I 394 00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:17,556 Speaker 1: initially decided to talk with you, I wasn't going to 395 00:23:17,836 --> 00:23:21,436 Speaker 1: ask you to answer questions, but when people found out 396 00:23:21,476 --> 00:23:24,236 Speaker 1: I was talking with you, they immediately started giving me questions. 397 00:23:24,316 --> 00:23:26,756 Speaker 1: So I'd like to run some of these value if 398 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:31,316 Speaker 1: that's okay, okay real? I mean, yeah, I'm an advice columnist. 399 00:23:31,316 --> 00:23:33,396 Speaker 1: You know you are, no, I know, but I thought, 400 00:23:33,436 --> 00:23:35,476 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes it's like the comedian at dinner and 401 00:23:35,476 --> 00:23:38,396 Speaker 1: you're like, be funny. All right. So I have a 402 00:23:38,436 --> 00:23:41,836 Speaker 1: few questions from in house here at pushkin them out. 403 00:23:42,476 --> 00:23:45,756 Speaker 1: This first one I really I like, and I'm meager 404 00:23:45,796 --> 00:23:49,396 Speaker 1: to hear your answer. The question comes from Jordan, and 405 00:23:49,676 --> 00:23:52,636 Speaker 1: Jordan writes, how do you know in a moment you 406 00:23:52,716 --> 00:23:56,356 Speaker 1: experience in your travels is worth writing down? What's different 407 00:23:56,356 --> 00:23:59,796 Speaker 1: about it that makes it worth remembering? Well, I think 408 00:23:59,796 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 1: there's a They're really a couple stages to writing, and 409 00:24:02,836 --> 00:24:05,276 Speaker 1: the first one is I think you should write everything down. 410 00:24:05,436 --> 00:24:07,676 Speaker 1: I think you should write down everything you're thinking and feeling, 411 00:24:07,716 --> 00:24:11,316 Speaker 1: and the small things, the little gestures, the person sitting 412 00:24:11,396 --> 00:24:14,156 Speaker 1: next to you in the cafe, the kind of ice 413 00:24:14,156 --> 00:24:17,436 Speaker 1: cream you're eating. All of those details are what make 414 00:24:17,596 --> 00:24:21,676 Speaker 1: a really rich portrait. One thing I'm doing, Brendan, that's 415 00:24:21,716 --> 00:24:24,836 Speaker 1: been so interesting to me is I just decided to 416 00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:27,396 Speaker 1: transcribe all my journals. So I used to keep a 417 00:24:27,476 --> 00:24:31,436 Speaker 1: journal pretty religiously from about the age of nineteen until 418 00:24:32,196 --> 00:24:34,716 Speaker 1: my late thirties, kind of forty ish, and so I have, like, 419 00:24:35,436 --> 00:24:38,876 Speaker 1: you know, like really two decades of journals, and just 420 00:24:38,996 --> 00:24:41,676 Speaker 1: I'm sitting there in front of my computer and I'm 421 00:24:41,676 --> 00:24:44,396 Speaker 1: transcribing them. I'm just typing into a word document everything 422 00:24:44,436 --> 00:24:49,116 Speaker 1: I wrote. And at nineteen I got married, Like I 423 00:24:49,156 --> 00:24:52,196 Speaker 1: got married a month before my twentieth birthday, and my 424 00:24:52,716 --> 00:24:55,916 Speaker 1: ex husband and I we went to Ireland. We'd had 425 00:24:55,996 --> 00:24:59,276 Speaker 1: these like student work visas, and I got a job 426 00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:02,236 Speaker 1: in a vegetarian cafe in Dublin. And it was nineteen 427 00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:06,396 Speaker 1: eighty eight. And I have these journals and it's been 428 00:25:06,516 --> 00:25:10,516 Speaker 1: so amazing to transcribe them. And I'm so glad that 429 00:25:10,556 --> 00:25:13,196 Speaker 1: I that I took my own advice, the advice I'm 430 00:25:13,196 --> 00:25:15,996 Speaker 1: giving Jordan, which is just write everything down, you know, 431 00:25:16,076 --> 00:25:19,356 Speaker 1: take note, make a make a word portrait, you know, 432 00:25:19,436 --> 00:25:22,356 Speaker 1: as often as you can, about not just what you 433 00:25:22,436 --> 00:25:25,556 Speaker 1: see and smell and hear, about what you're feeling, what 434 00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:29,116 Speaker 1: you're thinking, what's making you happy, what's making you sad? 435 00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:31,796 Speaker 1: What are you remembering about home? You know, everything you 436 00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:35,556 Speaker 1: can put it on the page, because it later becomes 437 00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:38,036 Speaker 1: a treasure if you're a writer, like you're like, how 438 00:25:38,076 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 1: does this experience of this young woman for the first 439 00:25:41,036 --> 00:25:43,356 Speaker 1: time in a foreign country, how does that tell a 440 00:25:43,436 --> 00:25:46,636 Speaker 1: more universal story? And then you start to make, you know, 441 00:25:46,916 --> 00:25:49,716 Speaker 1: decisions about like what's the most interesting or what's what 442 00:25:49,796 --> 00:25:52,156 Speaker 1: are the universal threads. That's what I always look for 443 00:25:52,356 --> 00:25:55,956 Speaker 1: in writing, Like, for example, in Wild, the point of 444 00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:59,356 Speaker 1: Wild isn't like I'm such an interesting person because I 445 00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:03,876 Speaker 1: walked a really long way on this wilderness trail. You know. Really, 446 00:26:04,116 --> 00:26:06,516 Speaker 1: I think the reason that Wild resonates with so many 447 00:26:06,556 --> 00:26:09,676 Speaker 1: people is I told a deep story about what does 448 00:26:09,716 --> 00:26:13,276 Speaker 1: it mean like to have to bear the unbearable, like 449 00:26:13,516 --> 00:26:16,636 Speaker 1: to carry that heavy backpacks for that very drugged terrain, 450 00:26:17,236 --> 00:26:19,556 Speaker 1: and I had to keep moving forward even when it hurt. 451 00:26:19,876 --> 00:26:22,996 Speaker 1: And it's a deeper story about not just my journey, 452 00:26:23,036 --> 00:26:27,596 Speaker 1: but what journey means. Journey is all about figuring out 453 00:26:27,836 --> 00:26:29,916 Speaker 1: how you can do what you think you can't do. 454 00:26:31,236 --> 00:26:33,676 Speaker 1: My problem, which I have every day of my life 455 00:26:33,876 --> 00:26:38,236 Speaker 1: and certainly when I'm in traveling, is I wake up 456 00:26:38,276 --> 00:26:41,236 Speaker 1: in the morning and I'm like, I want to have 457 00:26:41,276 --> 00:26:44,276 Speaker 1: a coffee. Maybe I want to exercise, maybe I want 458 00:26:44,276 --> 00:26:46,476 Speaker 1: to run, Maybe I want to experience this, like, oh, 459 00:26:46,476 --> 00:26:48,796 Speaker 1: I want to watch the sunrise over this thing. Maybe 460 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:52,316 Speaker 1: I donna. When do you write like like this this 461 00:26:52,436 --> 00:26:54,796 Speaker 1: idea of like write everything down? It's like what, I'm 462 00:26:54,836 --> 00:26:58,356 Speaker 1: too busy living like and I don't have a good memory. 463 00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:01,316 Speaker 1: My brain is a sieve, and so yeah, when do 464 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:03,796 Speaker 1: you write? Well? I think that in both life and 465 00:27:04,076 --> 00:27:06,796 Speaker 1: and maybe especially in travel, you know, where you feel 466 00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:08,516 Speaker 1: sort of like I'm here to do all these different 467 00:27:08,516 --> 00:27:11,276 Speaker 1: things and see all the different things. Part of experiencing 468 00:27:11,996 --> 00:27:15,036 Speaker 1: a place and part of living. I think a balanced 469 00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:20,196 Speaker 1: in healthy life is having time for you know, contemplation 470 00:27:20,396 --> 00:27:23,796 Speaker 1: and reflection and you know, to me, I mean honestly, 471 00:27:24,316 --> 00:27:26,716 Speaker 1: one of my absolutely favorite things to do when I 472 00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:30,916 Speaker 1: travel is, you know, wander around the city or the 473 00:27:30,956 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 1: town or the village or whatever and just find a 474 00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:37,476 Speaker 1: place to sit and write, you know, whether it be 475 00:27:37,516 --> 00:27:41,596 Speaker 1: a cafe or a bar, or a mountainside or a 476 00:27:41,636 --> 00:27:45,396 Speaker 1: stone wall, you know, in some little funky part of town. 477 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:48,276 Speaker 1: You know, just take those ten minutes to just jot 478 00:27:48,316 --> 00:27:51,196 Speaker 1: down what you're thinking, and you know, of course in life. 479 00:27:51,996 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 1: For me, in a strange way, it's actually harder for 480 00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:56,476 Speaker 1: me to do in life than when I'm traveling, because 481 00:27:56,476 --> 00:27:58,636 Speaker 1: I do try to make that kind of contemplative space 482 00:27:58,716 --> 00:28:01,996 Speaker 1: part of the trip. But in life, yeah, you just 483 00:28:02,076 --> 00:28:04,316 Speaker 1: you actually have to make the same commitment to that 484 00:28:04,396 --> 00:28:06,676 Speaker 1: as you do to everything else. If you decide that 485 00:28:06,716 --> 00:28:10,036 Speaker 1: you want to be somebody who exercises most days, you 486 00:28:10,156 --> 00:28:12,076 Speaker 1: exercise most days. And if you decide do you want 487 00:28:12,076 --> 00:28:14,316 Speaker 1: to be somebody who writes most days, you write most days. 488 00:28:15,596 --> 00:28:21,836 Speaker 1: Oh man, oh man, listen, way easier south than um. Okay. 489 00:28:21,876 --> 00:28:25,436 Speaker 1: This next question comes from Anna, and Anna asks what 490 00:28:25,556 --> 00:28:28,356 Speaker 1: are the best shoes to bring on a non hiking trip? 491 00:28:29,236 --> 00:28:31,396 Speaker 1: Do you just suck it up and wear ugly yet 492 00:28:31,436 --> 00:28:35,236 Speaker 1: comfy sneakers at a chic European museum? What if it rains? 493 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:39,116 Speaker 1: I love this intersection of the practical and the not 494 00:28:39,236 --> 00:28:42,076 Speaker 1: so practical. Oh my goodness, this and this is such 495 00:28:42,916 --> 00:28:46,276 Speaker 1: a really hard question. So Anna, like, I absolutely one 496 00:28:46,356 --> 00:28:49,276 Speaker 1: hundred percent feel this question, and I have lived through 497 00:28:49,316 --> 00:28:53,236 Speaker 1: it for many years now. Because it is especially for women, 498 00:28:53,276 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 1: I will say, you know, we do have to make 499 00:28:55,356 --> 00:28:58,996 Speaker 1: this choice very often between you know, real comfort and 500 00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:02,996 Speaker 1: looking at least somewhat decent, you know, and cool and 501 00:29:03,236 --> 00:29:06,116 Speaker 1: you know, cute with whatever outfort we're wearing. But I've 502 00:29:06,196 --> 00:29:09,316 Speaker 1: I've solidly landed on this truth, and I've learned earned 503 00:29:09,356 --> 00:29:13,196 Speaker 1: it the hard way. Anyone who's read Wild knows how 504 00:29:13,276 --> 00:29:15,716 Speaker 1: much I have struggled with shoes and what a price 505 00:29:15,756 --> 00:29:18,596 Speaker 1: I've hate for it, losing my tone nails. Is that, 506 00:29:19,236 --> 00:29:23,596 Speaker 1: you know, comfort really matters a lot, because of course, 507 00:29:23,676 --> 00:29:27,196 Speaker 1: you can go to that museum and you won't be 508 00:29:27,236 --> 00:29:30,116 Speaker 1: able to focus on the art if all you're thinking 509 00:29:30,116 --> 00:29:32,916 Speaker 1: about is how much your feet are killing you. So often, 510 00:29:33,076 --> 00:29:36,836 Speaker 1: the most impressive person of all is the person who 511 00:29:36,916 --> 00:29:40,636 Speaker 1: doesn't conform, who doesn't look like they wore those shoes 512 00:29:40,676 --> 00:29:42,956 Speaker 1: because they want you to think that they look cute. 513 00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:46,116 Speaker 1: They wore those shoes because that's what they feel good. 514 00:29:46,276 --> 00:29:48,836 Speaker 1: And to me, like that's the best look of all 515 00:29:48,836 --> 00:29:51,756 Speaker 1: when you see somebody who's really like comfortable in their 516 00:29:51,756 --> 00:29:55,836 Speaker 1: body and at ease and able to move in a 517 00:29:55,916 --> 00:29:59,036 Speaker 1: way that makes them feel good, And it begins with 518 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:01,556 Speaker 1: the shoes. So go in the direction of comfort and 519 00:30:01,676 --> 00:30:04,116 Speaker 1: own it all the way and until you look like 520 00:30:04,356 --> 00:30:07,196 Speaker 1: the coolest woman in the room. Here's another move. How 521 00:30:07,196 --> 00:30:09,516 Speaker 1: about a middleway, which is I've done this. You could 522 00:30:09,556 --> 00:30:12,636 Speaker 1: go to a vintage store like you could buy Probably 523 00:30:12,636 --> 00:30:16,356 Speaker 1: you don't have to travel with sexy footwear necessarily or 524 00:30:16,356 --> 00:30:18,276 Speaker 1: good footwear, but if you're going to a very fancy 525 00:30:18,316 --> 00:30:20,716 Speaker 1: meal or invited in some event where it's dress up, 526 00:30:21,196 --> 00:30:24,396 Speaker 1: you know, I love going through vintage stores and like 527 00:30:25,076 --> 00:30:28,316 Speaker 1: Rome or other places, and you can maybe quickly assemble 528 00:30:28,676 --> 00:30:31,516 Speaker 1: a kind of glamorous outfit that you maybe wouldn't feel 529 00:30:31,516 --> 00:30:34,396 Speaker 1: bad leaving behind. Sure. I mean one thing I did 530 00:30:34,636 --> 00:30:37,196 Speaker 1: last summer. I was in Europe for this like seven 531 00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:40,076 Speaker 1: week trip that included all these different things, like everything 532 00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:43,836 Speaker 1: from hiking in whales to going to like a really fancy, 533 00:30:44,836 --> 00:30:48,556 Speaker 1: very you know, Hollywood party in Greece, I mean really 534 00:30:48,596 --> 00:30:51,356 Speaker 1: really well dressed people. And I was like, listen, I'm 535 00:30:51,356 --> 00:30:53,316 Speaker 1: not going to be able to like compete with that 536 00:30:53,516 --> 00:30:56,116 Speaker 1: or where you know, stilettos or you know it wasn't 537 00:30:56,156 --> 00:30:58,556 Speaker 1: interested in that, but I do need something to wear 538 00:30:58,836 --> 00:31:02,156 Speaker 1: with dresses. And I did exactly what you suggested. I mean, 539 00:31:02,276 --> 00:31:05,756 Speaker 1: it's like, okay, I'll buy a pair of like kind 540 00:31:05,756 --> 00:31:08,356 Speaker 1: of fancy flip flops when I'm actually in this beach 541 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:10,836 Speaker 1: town that I'm going to on this island, right, and 542 00:31:10,996 --> 00:31:13,516 Speaker 1: you can like have that look. It's not fancy, but 543 00:31:13,556 --> 00:31:16,436 Speaker 1: it's a little less clunky than the big comfy, you know, 544 00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:19,436 Speaker 1: sneakers that you might wear all day long at the museum. 545 00:31:19,836 --> 00:31:23,716 Speaker 1: So switch it up, switch it up. The only danger 546 00:31:23,796 --> 00:31:26,796 Speaker 1: there is I've made the mistake. I had my luggage 547 00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:30,956 Speaker 1: lost in Portugal this summer, and you find yourself at 548 00:31:30,956 --> 00:31:33,276 Speaker 1: a Benetton, and you can end up buying like a 549 00:31:33,316 --> 00:31:36,236 Speaker 1: mock turtleneck sleeveless shirt like you, I end up looking 550 00:31:36,316 --> 00:31:39,676 Speaker 1: like this euro like this euro club kid, which is 551 00:31:39,716 --> 00:31:42,836 Speaker 1: definitely not my default look. So you got to be careful. 552 00:31:42,876 --> 00:31:45,996 Speaker 1: You might go, yeah, yeah, I made a similar mistake. 553 00:31:46,036 --> 00:31:49,276 Speaker 1: I bought like a very bright green kind of like 554 00:31:49,556 --> 00:31:52,076 Speaker 1: mumu sort of dress, you know how they always have 555 00:31:52,116 --> 00:31:55,556 Speaker 1: those in like beat places. And then I saw photographs 556 00:31:55,596 --> 00:31:58,196 Speaker 1: of myself and I was like, WHOA what was I thinking? 557 00:31:58,676 --> 00:32:03,276 Speaker 1: I just I know, all right, I've one last question. 558 00:32:03,476 --> 00:32:06,396 Speaker 1: This question comes from Leah, and I think you're uniquely 559 00:32:06,396 --> 00:32:09,876 Speaker 1: suited to answer it, and the question is what types 560 00:32:09,916 --> 00:32:13,236 Speaker 1: of books are best to bring on vacation. That's a 561 00:32:13,356 --> 00:32:17,556 Speaker 1: great one. That's a great one. You know. It also 562 00:32:17,596 --> 00:32:21,756 Speaker 1: makes me smile because when I was hiking the trail 563 00:32:21,756 --> 00:32:23,756 Speaker 1: at first of all, books were like my only companion 564 00:32:23,836 --> 00:32:26,756 Speaker 1: because I very often would go days without seeing another person. 565 00:32:26,796 --> 00:32:29,676 Speaker 1: So books really really were important. They were like my 566 00:32:29,756 --> 00:32:33,236 Speaker 1: only portal into somebody else's mind, you know, other than 567 00:32:33,316 --> 00:32:36,876 Speaker 1: my own. And because I was a backpacker and carrying 568 00:32:36,916 --> 00:32:39,236 Speaker 1: the weight of one book at a time, as I 569 00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:41,756 Speaker 1: read most of the books, I would just burn them, 570 00:32:41,836 --> 00:32:45,156 Speaker 1: which just seemed like so sacrilegious, you know, as somebody 571 00:32:45,196 --> 00:32:47,596 Speaker 1: who loves books. It was like, yeah, I'm just going 572 00:32:47,636 --> 00:32:49,196 Speaker 1: to light this book on fire and burn it. But 573 00:32:49,236 --> 00:32:51,036 Speaker 1: I didn't want to carry the pages, so I did that. 574 00:32:51,316 --> 00:32:53,076 Speaker 1: And at the end of Wild I have this list, 575 00:32:53,116 --> 00:32:55,596 Speaker 1: you know, the books I burned on the PCT. And 576 00:32:55,716 --> 00:32:58,356 Speaker 1: so many people have asked me like, did you really 577 00:32:58,396 --> 00:33:01,356 Speaker 1: think you know really hard about which books to bring? 578 00:33:01,396 --> 00:33:04,196 Speaker 1: And what's funny is I didn't. I just really like 579 00:33:04,356 --> 00:33:08,116 Speaker 1: walked along my bookshelf and grabbed various books from it 580 00:33:08,156 --> 00:33:10,876 Speaker 1: that I had and had never read and had been 581 00:33:10,876 --> 00:33:12,676 Speaker 1: meaning to read and put them in each of my 582 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:17,356 Speaker 1: resupply boxes. And resupply boxes are basically packages friends would 583 00:33:17,356 --> 00:33:19,996 Speaker 1: send you at different points in your trip. I loved 584 00:33:20,036 --> 00:33:21,956 Speaker 1: every book I read on the PCD, and there was 585 00:33:21,996 --> 00:33:27,236 Speaker 1: something really cool about serendipity of just saying, you know, 586 00:33:27,836 --> 00:33:31,476 Speaker 1: I have never gotten around to reading William Faulkner's As 587 00:33:31,516 --> 00:33:33,956 Speaker 1: I Lay Dying, and I put it into one of 588 00:33:33,956 --> 00:33:36,516 Speaker 1: my boxes and it became one of my favorite books. 589 00:33:36,956 --> 00:33:41,436 Speaker 1: There's also sometimes, you know, it's really cool to curate 590 00:33:41,476 --> 00:33:44,116 Speaker 1: a list of books that like are in some way 591 00:33:44,476 --> 00:33:46,916 Speaker 1: about the place you're visiting, or set in the place 592 00:33:46,956 --> 00:33:49,756 Speaker 1: you're visiting, or written by people who are from the 593 00:33:49,756 --> 00:33:53,036 Speaker 1: place you're traveling to. And that can be really cool too, 594 00:33:53,076 --> 00:33:57,436 Speaker 1: to actually try to deepen the lived experience you're having 595 00:33:57,716 --> 00:34:01,956 Speaker 1: by reading books about it as well. I went to 596 00:34:02,036 --> 00:34:05,636 Speaker 1: Iceland a couple of years ago, and I had never 597 00:34:05,756 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 1: read the literature of the country, and I found this 598 00:34:08,396 --> 00:34:11,756 Speaker 1: novel called miss Iceland by this author who I absolutely love. 599 00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:14,236 Speaker 1: And I'm not going to say her name because I 600 00:34:14,356 --> 00:34:16,596 Speaker 1: just don't know how to pronounce it, but it's called 601 00:34:16,636 --> 00:34:20,236 Speaker 1: miss Iceland, and it's just this really wonderful novel set 602 00:34:20,236 --> 00:34:22,956 Speaker 1: in Iceland and many decades ago. But it's like it 603 00:34:23,036 --> 00:34:26,076 Speaker 1: gave me a sense of the country and the place 604 00:34:26,196 --> 00:34:31,036 Speaker 1: and the sensibility that that deepened my experience. Then when 605 00:34:31,036 --> 00:34:33,316 Speaker 1: I got to Iceland, I kept remembering this, this main 606 00:34:33,396 --> 00:34:36,916 Speaker 1: character in the novel, and you know, she worked at 607 00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:39,676 Speaker 1: this hotel in Rekuveck, and and I like, I walked 608 00:34:39,676 --> 00:34:41,996 Speaker 1: by these historic hotels and I'd think, oh, that that's 609 00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:44,636 Speaker 1: like where the character worked, like and there was something 610 00:34:44,676 --> 00:34:48,796 Speaker 1: that felt really wonderful about going to the country having 611 00:34:48,836 --> 00:34:51,836 Speaker 1: read something that was set there, written by somebody who 612 00:34:52,156 --> 00:34:57,476 Speaker 1: is from there. Yeah, it's like knowing if that And 613 00:34:57,596 --> 00:35:00,076 Speaker 1: you know, I think books, yeah, you know, never, I 614 00:35:00,076 --> 00:35:03,916 Speaker 1: mean I would never think of traveling anywhere without a book, 615 00:35:04,076 --> 00:35:07,476 Speaker 1: because when you have a book, you always have a companion. 616 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:11,316 Speaker 1: I think that that can be really grounding to have 617 00:35:11,556 --> 00:35:14,516 Speaker 1: just like that sort of touchstone of a story that 618 00:35:14,556 --> 00:35:20,276 Speaker 1: you're involved in while you're also in this new world. Well, 619 00:35:20,276 --> 00:35:22,516 Speaker 1: I think the books you took in wild there were 620 00:35:22,556 --> 00:35:24,996 Speaker 1: literary works, and I think there's a lot to be 621 00:35:24,996 --> 00:35:28,076 Speaker 1: said for a beach read or getting some genre reading in. 622 00:35:28,516 --> 00:35:31,156 Speaker 1: But I do think I will often bring like I 623 00:35:31,196 --> 00:35:36,476 Speaker 1: feel like I've only read Nabokov, like On Vacation or 624 00:35:37,316 --> 00:35:40,196 Speaker 1: Cheam Salt or some of these kind of heavier hitters 625 00:35:40,236 --> 00:35:43,276 Speaker 1: because sometimes it's harder for me to crack open and 626 00:35:43,316 --> 00:35:45,876 Speaker 1: get in there. But if it's the one English language 627 00:35:45,876 --> 00:35:48,836 Speaker 1: book you have in your pack, you're gonna really kind 628 00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:51,156 Speaker 1: of steep in it in a way that you maybe 629 00:35:51,156 --> 00:35:53,556 Speaker 1: wouldn't if it's just you're reading it on the sub 630 00:35:53,676 --> 00:35:55,916 Speaker 1: I agree. I don't like the whole idea that a 631 00:35:55,996 --> 00:35:58,276 Speaker 1: beach read is like a light reader. I go for 632 00:35:58,356 --> 00:36:02,116 Speaker 1: the heavy books because also when you're on a trip, 633 00:36:02,196 --> 00:36:04,876 Speaker 1: you often have more hours than in the day two read, 634 00:36:04,916 --> 00:36:08,636 Speaker 1: so you can sink in m Chrystade, thank you so 635 00:36:08,716 --> 00:36:11,356 Speaker 1: much for chatting with me. I'm excited to check out 636 00:36:11,876 --> 00:36:13,956 Speaker 1: your show when it comes out on Hulu, and I'm 637 00:36:13,996 --> 00:36:16,796 Speaker 1: excited to share this with my audience. Thank you so 638 00:36:16,876 --> 00:36:19,396 Speaker 1: much for taking Thank you. It was really a pleasure 639 00:36:19,556 --> 00:36:21,996 Speaker 1: to talk to you. And I have to say it 640 00:36:22,476 --> 00:36:32,676 Speaker 1: happy trails. That was Sheryl Straid. The Tiny Beautiful Things 641 00:36:32,676 --> 00:36:35,516 Speaker 1: TV show will be out on Hulu this spring, and 642 00:36:35,636 --> 00:36:37,996 Speaker 1: if you haven't read Wild or haven't looked at it 643 00:36:38,036 --> 00:36:40,076 Speaker 1: in a while, I encourage you to go back. It 644 00:36:40,236 --> 00:36:43,916 Speaker 1: is a luck grittier than I remembered. It is a 645 00:36:43,916 --> 00:36:47,596 Speaker 1: pretty good read that confirms my decision not to go 646 00:36:48,156 --> 00:36:55,076 Speaker 1: into the great outdoors anymore. So that's it for this 647 00:36:55,236 --> 00:36:58,276 Speaker 1: edition of That Lost Chat. If you have travel questions 648 00:36:58,316 --> 00:37:00,556 Speaker 1: that you want answered in a future episode, we got 649 00:37:00,556 --> 00:37:03,036 Speaker 1: one more left for this series. Please email them to 650 00:37:03,076 --> 00:37:06,236 Speaker 1: me at not Lost at Pushkin dot fm or Pingey 651 00:37:06,356 --> 00:37:10,436 Speaker 1: at bf snacks on Twitter. Not Lost Chat is produced 652 00:37:10,436 --> 00:37:13,716 Speaker 1: by Jordan Bailly, who, as we all know, travels a 653 00:37:13,756 --> 00:37:16,756 Speaker 1: lot more than me. In fact, she's heading to CDMX 654 00:37:16,836 --> 00:37:19,796 Speaker 1: in just a couple of weeks. The show is written 655 00:37:19,876 --> 00:37:23,556 Speaker 1: and hosted by me Brendan Francis Nunham. Booking assistance came 656 00:37:23,596 --> 00:37:27,276 Speaker 1: from Laura Morgan. This episode was edited by Julia Barton 657 00:37:27,476 --> 00:37:31,196 Speaker 1: with assistance from Managing producer Jacob Smith. Our mix engineer 658 00:37:31,196 --> 00:37:35,196 Speaker 1: and co producer is the brilliant and wonderful Sarah Brugure. 659 00:37:36,036 --> 00:37:38,756 Speaker 1: Not Lost as a co production of Pushkin Industries, Topic 660 00:37:38,796 --> 00:37:43,316 Speaker 1: Studios and iHeartMedia. It was developed at Topic Studios. Executive 661 00:37:43,316 --> 00:37:47,916 Speaker 1: producers include me Brendan Francis Nunham, Christy Gressman, Maria Zuckerman, 662 00:37:48,116 --> 00:37:51,036 Speaker 1: Lisa line Gang and Latom Malade. And if you enjoy 663 00:37:51,076 --> 00:37:53,196 Speaker 1: what you here, please tell a friend, make a commented 664 00:37:53,196 --> 00:37:57,516 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, spread the word. It's all greatly appreciated, and 665 00:37:57,996 --> 00:38:00,636 Speaker 1: as ever, if your inboxes lonely, sign up for the 666 00:38:00,636 --> 00:38:05,076 Speaker 1: Pushkin newsletter at Pushkin dot fm, slash newsletter. If you'd 667 00:38:05,076 --> 00:38:07,436 Speaker 1: like to listen to more Pushkin podcast and there's some 668 00:38:07,476 --> 00:38:10,396 Speaker 1: great stuff happening, we got deep cover. You can go 669 00:38:10,436 --> 00:38:12,356 Speaker 1: back in time and listen to Death of an Artist, 670 00:38:12,396 --> 00:38:15,116 Speaker 1: which is a fantastic show, lots of good stuff, Loudest 671 00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:16,956 Speaker 1: Girl in the World, Story of the Week. You can 672 00:38:16,996 --> 00:38:19,996 Speaker 1: listen and find them on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast 673 00:38:20,396 --> 00:38:25,396 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcast. That's it for this episode. 674 00:38:25,796 --> 00:38:27,596 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the end. Bo