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Speaker 1: Good morning.

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Speaker 2: It's Thursday, the sixteenth of November in London. This is

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Speaker 2: the Bloomberg Day by Curate podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Caroline Hepka.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Stephen Carroll coming up today. She says China

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Speaker 3: won't fight a hot war with the US after face

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Speaker 3: to face talks with President Biden.

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Speaker 2: Israel says it founder her mass command center under Gaz's

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Speaker 2: largest hospital. As the UN condemns the.

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Speaker 3: Raid, plus sexism in the city. Firms across the square

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Speaker 3: mile acknowledge an awful culture.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with a roundup of our top stories.

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Speaker 3: President s Jingping says China wants to be friends with

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Speaker 3: the US and won't fight a war with anyone after

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Speaker 3: face to face talks with President Biden. Speaking after the meeting,

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Speaker 3: the Chinese leader said he wants peaceful ties between Beijing

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Speaker 3: and Washington.

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Speaker 4: Whatever stage of development it may reach. China will never

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Speaker 4: putsue her gemany or expansion, and will never impose its

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Speaker 4: will on others. China does not seek spears of influence

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Speaker 4: and will not fight a cold war by hot war

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Speaker 4: with anyone shooting things.

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Speaker 3: Speaking through a translator, there, the leaders of the world's

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Speaker 3: two largest economies hadn't spoken for a year, an agreed

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Speaker 3: a deal to restore high level communications. Whoever, Joe Biden

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Speaker 3: ended his press conference by repeating remarks that had sparked

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Speaker 3: criticism from China earlier this year.

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Speaker 5: Oh he is, I mean, he's a dictator in the

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Speaker 5: sense that he three is a guy in from anti country.

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Speaker 4: That is Clarian, apastime, one of the other totally different

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Speaker 4: than Art.

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Speaker 3: That's President Joe Biden. The meeting between Biden and she

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Speaker 3: at the APEX summit in California was the culmination of

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Speaker 3: intense diplomatic efforts to bridge the fractured relationship.

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Speaker 2: Now, the Israeli military says that it has found a

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Speaker 2: Hamas command center, weapons and technological assets at the Shifa

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Speaker 2: Hospital in Gaza City. Middle Eastern countries, including Jordan and Turkey,

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Speaker 2: have condemned the raid. Meanwhile, the UN under Secuy General

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Speaker 2: for Humanitarian Affairs, Martin Griffith, says that he was appalled

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Speaker 2: by the Israeli operation, but Israeli Prime Minister to Beintna

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Speaker 2: who says he makes no apologies for sending troops in.

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Speaker 6: But we were told that we would not reach the

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Speaker 6: outskirts of Gaza City. We arrived, we were told that

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Speaker 6: we won't enter Sifa. We entered, and in this spirit

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Speaker 6: we say simple thing. There is no place in Gaza

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Speaker 6: that we will not reach.

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Speaker 2: The words of Netnia who they're spoken by a translator.

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Speaker 2: The comments come as her Mass reportedly agreed to free

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Speaker 2: fifty women and children held hostage in Gaza in exchange

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Speaker 2: for a pause in fighting and the release of some

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Speaker 2: women and children held in Israeli prisons. The Washington Post

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Speaker 2: says that Israel has yet to decide whether it supports

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Speaker 2: the deal.

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Speaker 3: Here in the UK, the Labor Party leader Kir Starmer

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Speaker 3: faces the greatest challenge to his authority to date. Despite

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Speaker 3: being the front runner to form the next government. Eight

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Speaker 3: of the opposition leader's top team of quit after voting

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Speaker 3: to call for a ceasefire, and Gaza Shadow Minister for

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Speaker 3: Exports Afteral Khan is among them.

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Speaker 4: We need a full and immediate SEES file now.

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Speaker 6: My constituents have demanded this and I will not refuse them.

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Speaker 7: Sporting a cease file is the very least we can do.

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Speaker 3: Cana joins the backbenches were more than a quarter of

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Speaker 3: Labor MPs voted for a ceasefire, Starmer expressed his regret

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Speaker 3: at the resignations after the vote, I had said, quote,

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Speaker 3: leadership is about doing the right thing.

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Speaker 1: Me, Mom Michie.

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Speaker 2: Sunac is promising emergency legislation and a new treaty with

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Speaker 2: Rwanda to ensure his asylum policy is not blocked again.

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Speaker 2: The Supreme Court unanimously ruled it unlawful, shredding the Prime

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Speaker 2: minister's flagship plan to try to stop small votes bringing

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Speaker 2: migrants to Britain. Facing a potential right wing rebellion, Sunac

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Speaker 2: is doubling down.

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Speaker 7: We will get the job done, and that involves the

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Speaker 7: new treaty and new domestic legislation, and that will clear

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Speaker 7: the remaining barriers to us getting flights off as planned

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Speaker 7: in the spring of next year.

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Speaker 2: Permanis's bold language. Some of his own officials have told

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg that they don't believe his new approach will succeed

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Speaker 2: Some conservative MPs on the right of the party, so

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Speaker 2: Sunak is not going far enough. They are plotting to

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Speaker 2: remove him as leader.

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Speaker 3: Hedge funds, banks and insurers say they've made progress on

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Speaker 3: getting more women into the financial industry, but that more

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Speaker 3: needs to be done to tackle disparities. Bloomberg's Tiwa Adebayo

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Speaker 3: has more.

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Speaker 8: The culture in UK finance is quote bloody awful, according

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Speaker 8: to Yvonne Braun, a director at the Association of British Insurers.

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Speaker 8: She was giving evidence to lawmakers looking into the state

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Speaker 8: of gender equality in the city after a series of

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Speaker 8: high profile sexual harassment scandals this year. Data collected by

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Speaker 8: trade bodies shows some progress on representation, but highlights a

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Speaker 8: lack of senior female talent. Only twenty percent of top

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Speaker 8: hedge fund positions are filled by women, says the Alternative

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Speaker 8: Investment Management Association. According to Tory MP Caroline know there

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Speaker 8: is still more to be done to reform the culture

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Speaker 8: in London. Teawa added bio Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 2: UBS has one a ruling in France's top court that

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Speaker 2: may help it cut a one point eight billion euro

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Speaker 2: penalty for helping wealthy French clients of aid taxes. The

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Speaker 2: judges upheld the lower court's money laundering conviction against the firm,

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Speaker 2: but said that the overall penalty should be re examined.

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Speaker 2: UBS continues to maintain that it acted in accordance with

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Speaker 2: all applicable laws and regulations at all times. Now, in

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Speaker 2: just a moment, we're going to bring you more coverage

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Speaker 2: of the She Biden meeting. Colin Murphy, Bloomberg's China government reporter,

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Speaker 2: will be joining us live. There's been not only agreements

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Speaker 2: in terms of trying to clamp down on fentanyl production

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Speaker 2: and more communication between China and the United States, but

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Speaker 2: also a big dinner with she and a lot of

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Speaker 2: big US CEOs.

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Speaker 1: We'll have a lot more on that in a moment.

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Speaker 3: Let's talk first, though, about the latest developments in the

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Speaker 3: Middle East, where USB and Joe Biden has defended Israel's

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Speaker 3: military action at Gaza's largest hospital in the face of

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Speaker 3: international criticism of the raid. Ploomberg's Israel Bureau chief has

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Speaker 3: an article out this morning on the Hamas chief, Yahwa Sinwar,

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Speaker 3: who founded Hamas's military wing in the late nineteen eighties

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Speaker 3: and it's seen as the mastermind of the October seventh

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Speaker 3: attack on Israel that triggers the war. Ethan Bronner joins us. Now,

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Speaker 3: good morning to you. Ethan. Who is the Hamas leader

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Speaker 3: that's thought to be behind the October seventh attack and

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Speaker 3: the origins of this war.

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Speaker 9: Well, Hi, Stephen, you laid out well this sort of

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Speaker 9: skeleton of.

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Speaker 5: Who he is.

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Speaker 9: He was born in Hanunis in southern Gaza, and he

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Speaker 9: after university, helped found the During the First Antifada in

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Speaker 9: the late nineteen eighties, the uprising against Israeli occupation, he

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Speaker 9: helped found the military wing of Hamas and he placed

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Speaker 9: himself in charge of getting rid of collaborators of Israel.

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Speaker 9: He personally killed several of them. The Israelis then sent

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Speaker 9: him to prison for life, and he spent twenty two

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Speaker 9: years in prison because while he was in prison, Hamas,

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Speaker 9: through him, in fact, negotiated a release of an Israeli

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Speaker 9: soldier held by Hamas and Gaza in exchange from more

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Speaker 9: than a thousand prisoners, including himself. In twenty eleven, he

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Speaker 9: went back to Gaza. Within a few years he was running,

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Speaker 9: helping to run Hamas, and then in seventeen became the

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Speaker 9: head of it, and then you know, launched a very

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Speaker 9: interesting relationship with Israel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but he is now seen as having successfully misdirected Israel,

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Speaker 2: convincing them that Hamas had turned away for militarism.

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Speaker 9: That is the interesting part I was referring to. Yes,

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Speaker 9: he beginning in twenty eighteen, had a very sort of

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Speaker 9: co existence oriented a public face. He sent a Prime

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Speaker 9: Minister Antonia a little note suggesting Tahadia a ceasefire. He

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Speaker 9: also said so in an interview, enough of war, let's

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Speaker 9: live together, and so on. Meanwhile, he was building up

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Speaker 9: the military capacity. At least that's how it's viewed by

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Speaker 9: Israeli intelligence people today, that it was a willful act

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Speaker 9: of deception during those years, meanwhile creating the circumstances for

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Speaker 9: this very very bloody attack in early October, and is

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Speaker 9: now hiding deep inside of Gaza.

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Speaker 3: What should we think about when we try to consider

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Speaker 3: the character of Sinwar in where this conflict is now

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Speaker 3: the hostage negotiations. We've had these reports that there's negotiations

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Speaker 3: underway to free and other fifty women and children who

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Speaker 3: are being held in Gaza. How should we consider Sinwar's

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Speaker 3: role in this?

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Speaker 9: Well, the only thing I have to go on is

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Speaker 9: what Israeli intelligence types who follow this stuff and have

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Speaker 9: talked to me about say, which is that today Sinwar

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Speaker 9: is Hamas in Gaza. So we should believe that he

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Speaker 9: is running the negotiations for these hostage exchanges, for the

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Speaker 9: prison release, and that he will never leave. He will

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Speaker 9: stay there to the last bullet.

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Speaker 2: How much is Sinoa a product of Israel's policies of

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Speaker 2: occupation and containments.

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Speaker 9: Well, that's sort of the million dollar question about how

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Speaker 9: to understand asymmetrical conflicts like this. That is to say,

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Speaker 9: do we think that if Israel had not occupied Gaza,

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Speaker 9: or had treated it differently, or had done a better

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Speaker 9: job of negotiating for a two stage solution, that a

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Speaker 9: militant anti Zionist movement like Hummas would not have existed

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Speaker 9: or would not have gained strength. These are very difficult questions.

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Speaker 9: I can't answer that. I don't think anybody knows. I mean,

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Speaker 9: one argument is, of course that if they had done

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Speaker 9: all those things right, that they would have been very

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Speaker 9: little need for this. The other is that these movements

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Speaker 9: exist naturally, that they are, and there's nothing Israel could

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Speaker 9: have done. I mean, it must be said that when

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Speaker 9: was engaged in two state negotiations with the PLO, that's

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Speaker 9: when Hamas began its campaign of suicide bombing. So there's

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Speaker 9: an argument on both sides of.

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Speaker 3: That ethan, when we think about where the conflict is today,

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Speaker 3: There's been much debate over the Israeli military raids on

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Speaker 3: the Al Shifa Hospital in northern Gaza. Joe Biden saying this,

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Speaker 3: he defended the Israel's military operation condemnation from the UN.

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Speaker 3: How much of an important moment in this conflict is

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Speaker 3: what we're seeing unfold at Shifa.

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Speaker 9: That's also a good question. I think that it's not clear.

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Speaker 9: The Israelis have been arguing for at least a decade

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Speaker 9: that Shifa is a military headquarters for Hamas, and there's

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Speaker 9: reason to believe that at least it is a headquarters

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Speaker 9: of some kind for Hamas. I mean, I've been to

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Speaker 9: Sifa many times, and there's no doubt that militants hang around.

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Speaker 9: I don't know anything about exactly what's underneath. There is

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Speaker 9: a fair amount of evidence that the Israelis and the

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Speaker 9: Americans believe in that says that it was a headquarters. Now,

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Speaker 9: they did find some guns and so on, and some

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Speaker 9: evidence of militants being there. I don't think it's a

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Speaker 9: slam dunk what they found. I do think that by

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Speaker 9: almost any definition, the placement of those things in a

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Speaker 9: hospital is a war crime, and that you know that

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Speaker 9: Israel has some basis for complaining about it. I think

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Speaker 9: because it's so asymmetrical, this conflict, most people abroad are

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Speaker 9: not too impressed with the Israeli argument and are more

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Speaker 9: worried about the people who had to be moved who

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Speaker 9: were ill or seeking refuge there. So, again, like your

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Speaker 9: earlier question, there was an argument on both sides.

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Speaker 2: Heithan, thank you so much for being with us this morning.

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Speaker 2: Bloemberg's Israel bureau chief this morning. You can read his

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Speaker 2: piece on the Hamas chief on the Bloomberg terminal this morning.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's turn next to events in San Francisco, where

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Speaker 3: the US and Chinese presidents held four hours of talks

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Speaker 3: and came to some important agreements on improving communications between

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Speaker 3: top military but also between the two presidents themselves. But

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Speaker 3: President Biden finished his press conference by again referring to

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Speaker 3: President she as a dictator. Side to discussed China government

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Speaker 3: reporter Colin Murphy, Colin, great to have you with us

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Speaker 3: on the program. What should we take away from these talks.

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Speaker 3: Does it show a big improvement in relations?

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Speaker 5: I think it shows an improvement. I would stop short

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Speaker 5: of saying a big improvement, because depending on which side

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Speaker 5: you're talking to, you know, there's a little bit of

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Speaker 5: a spin being put on these talks. The American side

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Speaker 5: were earlier in the week talking up all the cooperation

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Speaker 5: on fentanyl and cooperation on AI and also across the

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Speaker 5: whole range of issues including climate. But then when we

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Speaker 5: actually saw the readouts today, especially from the Chinese side,

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Speaker 5: I would say more modest or more tone down. But

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Speaker 5: you know, that's not to say that it's a vast

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Speaker 5: improvement on where we were, like say, six months ago,

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Speaker 5: but it is incremental and I think a lot of

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Speaker 5: it will be obviously sort of pan out in the

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Speaker 5: coming months even years.

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Speaker 2: In terms of the use of that word dictator. What

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Speaker 2: sort of reaction did that get. I mean, we did

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Speaker 2: also hear that China talked about the meeting has been

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Speaker 2: candid and an exchange of views that was in depth,

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Speaker 2: but the use are the word dictator.

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Speaker 5: Right, So I mean, I think that at least in

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Speaker 5: the press conference, that's where a lot of the attention

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Speaker 5: went to immediately because it was the most sort of

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Speaker 5: explosive term that was used during that press conference from

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Speaker 5: the president. But it's not the first time he said

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Speaker 5: something like this, and in the past there has been

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Speaker 5: kind of somewhat muted response from China. But you know,

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Speaker 5: it depends they probably may just sort of see this

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Speaker 5: as what it is, which is based on you know,

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Speaker 5: Bidenn't trying to sort of appeal to his domestic audiences.

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Speaker 5: Having said that, I mean, it is early days and

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Speaker 5: we have the Foreign Ministry briefing coming up in about

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Speaker 5: under an hour, so there may be some more sort

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Speaker 5: of feedback from the Chinese side, But yeah, not very conducive.

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Speaker 5: Given the fact that we had some you know, positive vibes,

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Speaker 5: it was probably not the best time to use that word.

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Speaker 5: But as I say, it's not the first time he's

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Speaker 5: been some off cuff remarks that have been sort of

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Speaker 5: offensive or seen as offensive at least to the Chinese leadership.

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Speaker 3: When we think about the other issues that were discussed,

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Speaker 3: we had the restoration of communications that direct line between

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Speaker 3: Chooting Ping and Joe Biden as well also some discussion

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Speaker 3: of foreign policy issues around Taiwan, the restatement of the

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Speaker 3: One China policy from the US. What did we learn

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Speaker 3: in terms of the evolution of that relationship.

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Speaker 5: Again, I think jury is a little bit out on

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Speaker 5: that one. I mean, they did the US side did

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Speaker 5: sort of restate it's sort of it doesn't support Taiwan

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Speaker 5: independence and repeat it earlier lines, and I think you

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Speaker 5: know that obviously is reassuring, but from some statements from

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Speaker 5: the Foreign Ministry here earlier in the week ahead of

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Speaker 5: the talks, there definitely was a sort of subtext that

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Speaker 5: not only do they want the US side to to

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Speaker 5: reiterate that, but they want to show they want to

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Speaker 5: see the US side show that through their actions, and

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Speaker 5: in that regard, I think, you know, what was delivered

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Speaker 5: today was was was short of that. So it remains

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Speaker 5: to be seen. I guess whether if the US side

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Speaker 5: can actually now sort of become more sort of deliberate

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Speaker 5: in their actions that show that they do still firmly

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Speaker 5: support a one China policy rather than just sort of

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Speaker 5: stating it over and over again. But I guess, you know,

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Speaker 5: even the statement in itself is something that you know

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Speaker 5: Beijing would be welcoming.

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