1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: Reveals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello Everyone. 2 00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: This is Rivals, the show about music, beefs and feuds 3 00:00:16,640 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: and long summering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and I'm Jordan, 4 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 1: and today we're gonna be talking about David Byrne versus 5 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: the other talking heads, specifically Chris France and Tina Weymouth, 6 00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: since Axel and Slash got back together, and have to say, 7 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:31,479 Speaker 1: I think talking Heads maybe sitting at the top of 8 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 1: the we are never ever, ever ever getting back together list, 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 1: wouldn't you say? Oh, no doubt, no doubt in the world. 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: Definitely the top of my personal wish list, though it's like, 11 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: definitely the band that I really want to see get 12 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:45,080 Speaker 1: back together most, even though it will never happen. It's funny. 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: The feud always reminded me a lot of ways of 14 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,239 Speaker 1: this few that split up the band, where you have 15 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,040 Speaker 1: this like genial, laid back Southern drummer starting a group 16 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,319 Speaker 1: only to be usurped by this lone songwriter who sort 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: of absorbed the drummer's essence and grooves. But I don't know. 18 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: I like David Byrne, I help a lot more than it, 19 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Like Robbie Robertson, though, Yeah, I mean I love David 20 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: Byrne too, and I love the Talking Heads, and I agree. 21 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 1: I mean, this is like a band that I wish 22 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 1: I could have seen live, and I have no faith 23 00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: at all that they will ever get back together. Even 24 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 1: in this age of like ever President reunion tours, it 25 00:01:17,319 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: seems pretty safe to assume the Talking Heads will not 26 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: be reuniting, and I suspect that it became even less 27 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: likely this year when former Talking Heads drummer Chris France 28 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: published a memoir called Remain in Love. Uh did you 29 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: read that book? By the way I write pieces of it, 30 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: I yes, it is pretty damning. Yeah, I mean, basically, 31 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: in the book, Chris France argues, and I think pretty 32 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: convincingly that David Byrne stole songwriting credits, that he took 33 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:46,920 Speaker 1: credit for other ideas that weren't his, and that he's 34 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 1: essentially like a huge glory hog. And while I don't 35 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:53,040 Speaker 1: think everything that France says in his book should be 36 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: taken in face value, and we'll get into that in 37 00:01:55,320 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: this episode, the fact that so much of the Talking 38 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: Heads conversation has been about Burn and not about the 39 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: band um is something that really ought to be addressed 40 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: and I think probably corrected. So I think we're gonna 41 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,680 Speaker 1: do that in this episode and get into everything else 42 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,639 Speaker 1: about the talking head. So without further ado, let's get 43 00:02:11,680 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 1: into this mess. The crux of the fuse really between 44 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: the three co founders, David Byrne, Chris Friends and Tina Weymouth, 45 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: who were classmates at Risdy Rhode Island School Design, And 46 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: the whole premise of starting the band was France's idea. 47 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:29,359 Speaker 1: He had this dream of starting a band that would 48 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: basically be like a Dancy Art rock band that that 49 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: used R and B rhythms, and he spent a year 50 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 1: trying to find the right bassist, but eventually convinced his 51 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: girlfriend Tina to pick up the instrument and give it 52 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: a shot. And then when Chris suggested to uh his 53 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: friend David that he joined their little rhythm section, I guess, 54 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,160 Speaker 1: David muttered, I guess so, without looking front in the eye. Yeah, 55 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: Like when you read the book, like the way he 56 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: describes David Byrne in this era is like is pretty funny. 57 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: Like he kind of sounds like the kid that I 58 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: think lives on every floor at a college dorm, you know, 59 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: like the kid that keeps to himself elf, who wears 60 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,120 Speaker 1: weird clothes, and like I think at that time, like 61 00:03:04,240 --> 00:03:07,640 Speaker 1: David burn had like a really unkempt beard, so he 62 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,040 Speaker 1: was just this like kind of socially awkward person. And 63 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: it makes it like pretty plain in a way that 64 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,359 Speaker 1: David Burns on stage persona like isn't just an affectation 65 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 1: in a way that this is like a pretty like 66 00:03:20,919 --> 00:03:24,239 Speaker 1: genuine expression of who he is, And it seems like 67 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:26,760 Speaker 1: it made it really hard to be around him in 68 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: a weird way, it kind of makes him seem more 69 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: authentic because it's like, yeah, like he wasn't just this 70 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:35,440 Speaker 1: dude pretending to be like a sweaty, oddball guy like 71 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: in a really big suit, Like he really really like 72 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: was that guy that you know made him like one 73 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 1: of the most unique frontman in rock history. Oh yeah, 74 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 1: he really was aloof and shy, and he had a 75 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:46,400 Speaker 1: hard time looking at people in the eye, and he 76 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: was definitely socially distanced before it was cool. And know 77 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the friends at RIZ the thought that like, wait, 78 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: you're you're starting a band with this guy as your 79 00:03:53,920 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: front man. I think I think the phrase that that 80 00:03:55,840 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: that Chris used was a thin reed to lean on. 81 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: Did you ever see that our first band appearance on 82 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:05,320 Speaker 1: the American band Stand in nineteen nine? Yeah, I mean, 83 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,640 Speaker 1: I think Dick Clark asks David Burn like one question, 84 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: and it's clear that this isn't gonna go anywhere, so 85 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: then he like instantly changes course and just talks to 86 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 1: Tina Weymouth. Right. But it's like it's sort of just amazing. 87 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,520 Speaker 1: It's like almost like breaking the fourth wall of a 88 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: show like Bandstand and that early too. It's just weird 89 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:24,080 Speaker 1: to see something goes sort of that awry on such 90 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: a glitzy like slick show at that era. So and 91 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:28,599 Speaker 1: I guess that in a lot of ways kind of 92 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: like it's one of the things I love about David 93 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: Byrne too, is that he's so much his own person. Well, 94 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: hasn't He said subsequently that he's basically on the spectrum 95 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: that like he either is like mildly autistic or might 96 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: have like borderline like Asperger's. I mean, I think he 97 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:46,239 Speaker 1: has said that. It puts his behavior in a different 98 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 1: light when you consider that he says that that he 99 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: thinks he may have had that when in his younger 100 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: days and then he may have grew he thinks he 101 00:04:52,040 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 1: grew out of it, which I'm not a doctor, I 102 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: don't know if that's how that works, but whatever is 103 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: the case, it's fair to say that for all of 104 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: David's musical gifts and and he's very unique slant on 105 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: the world, he found it really hard to sort of 106 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: meet the social demands of working with other people. But 107 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 1: something it's also really interesting, which is also in Chris's book, 108 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 1: is that he had this kind of ruthless determination and 109 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,279 Speaker 1: ambition that kind of seems at odds with this really 110 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: shy personality. In the book, there's a story where there 111 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,359 Speaker 1: was a art gallery show and David's work was in it, 112 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: and I guess he snuck in the night before the 113 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: show opened, and David put his own work to the 114 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: very front of the gallery, so it looked like he 115 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,040 Speaker 1: was like the headliner of that art gallery show, which 116 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:37,320 Speaker 1: is very telling. I have to say. Yeah, in the book, 117 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: that's definitely like what they would call a foreshadowing episode 118 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,239 Speaker 1: of what's going to happen like later on in the book. 119 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: And it's also a foreshadowing I guess, of what's going 120 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: to happen in this episode. But yeah, Like from very 121 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:51,640 Speaker 1: early on, I think Chris France asserts this idea that 122 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: David Byrne had a way of pushing himself to the front, 123 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 1: even if he seemed ill at ease at times in 124 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: the Spotlight Um. He also admits in the book that 125 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: as awkward as David Byrne could be, just in mcgar conversation, 126 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 1: that he was undeniably a charismatic frontman. That like when 127 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 1: he was on stage, even when he hadn't quite found 128 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,160 Speaker 1: his voice yet as a vocalist, that like you couldn't 129 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,560 Speaker 1: really take your eyes off of him. We're gonna get 130 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: into this in the episode. I think there's lots of 131 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: things that explained the talking had success, but like a 132 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: big part of I think what makes that band unique 133 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,839 Speaker 1: is the fact that David Byrne, especially for that time, 134 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: was like the last person you would expect to be 135 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: singing in a rock band, you know, Like he was 136 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,400 Speaker 1: not Roger Daltry, He was not Robert Plant or Mick Jagger. 137 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: He was like a whole other archetype for like what 138 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: a rock star could be, right, I mean just getting 139 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: up there, moving the way he moved in like his 140 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 1: what was it like La cost shirt, like he he 141 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: looked like he was out of like honor Society program 142 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,239 Speaker 1: right on stage at CBGBs or something like. It definitely 143 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: didn't didn't compute so the early days of the band 144 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 1: as they existed in New York, you know, because they 145 00:06:57,000 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: ended up moving to New York City after graduating from 146 00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: art school. Really, it's like one of my favorite parts 147 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: of the book. Chris France writes really evocatively about like 148 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 1: the life that they had as these sort of young 149 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: bohemians living in uh nineteen seventies New York when New 150 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: York was like really this dangerous place, like where you know, 151 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: if you were living in like the Soho area, that 152 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: were like literally dead bodies like laying on the sidewalk 153 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,360 Speaker 1: and no one would come around to pick it up. 154 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 1: At least that's how Chris France writes about it. From 155 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: Chris's perspective, he really looks at Tina as being, I guess, 156 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,040 Speaker 1: like the caretaker of the band, Like she was the 157 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,560 Speaker 1: one that was booking their gigs, like she would make 158 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: sure that they got paid at the end of the night. 159 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 1: So she was playing this really big role in the band, 160 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: and yet musically she was the least experienced out of 161 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: anyone in the band, and this ended up being like 162 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: a real point of contention with you know, between David 163 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: Byrne and Tina Weymouth well into the existence of Talking Heads, 164 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 1: where David Byrne constantly felt that Tina Weymouth wasn't up 165 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: to snuff musically. It seems like, I mean, because there's 166 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: stories about this in the book that like he considered 167 00:07:59,480 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: like hearing her from the band for the longest time, 168 00:08:01,920 --> 00:08:03,760 Speaker 1: I mean, like well into like the recording of their 169 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: first record, right oh yeah, when they got signed on 170 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: on Sire Records. He made Tina audition for her own 171 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: role in the band three times, which is I mean, 172 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: it's kind of amazing that she likes stuck it out 173 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:17,480 Speaker 1: and by like time number two wasn't like no, go 174 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: to hell, like I don't, I don't need this, But 175 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: which is weird because I love her bass playing. I 176 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 1: actually think I like her earlier bass playing best because 177 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: it reminds me of Mo Tucker. Is kind of like 178 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: grade school style, like primitive playing that that does sound 179 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 1: so rock and roll in punk. I just think that's 180 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,600 Speaker 1: something that was so integral to the band's early sound. 181 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: It's interesting to me that that David hated it so much. Yeah, 182 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,679 Speaker 1: it's um, it's strange to me that he just focused 183 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: on her so much, because, yeah, I agree with you. 184 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 1: I think she's like a great bass player. And you know, 185 00:08:46,120 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: I don't know enough about bass playing to know like 186 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 1: what technical proficiency is. I mean, this is something you 187 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: should comment on because you're a bass player yourself, but 188 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:55,880 Speaker 1: like I just know as a listener, like what I 189 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:59,959 Speaker 1: respond to, and like her basslines were always like really unique. 190 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,319 Speaker 1: It was this combination of again, like really funky grooves 191 00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: that was coming at it from like a slightly different direction. 192 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: Like she wasn't playing like a conventional sort of R 193 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: and B or funk basis, and yet she could be 194 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,320 Speaker 1: just as funky as those people. It was like this again, 195 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: like fractured art rock version of what they were doing. 196 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: And to me, like, when you think about the sound 197 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: of the Talking Heads, her bass playing is like a 198 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: huge part of that. And to replace her with like 199 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: a more conventional bass player I think would have just 200 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 1: defeated the purpose of this band. You know, Like the 201 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: point of the Talking Heads isn't that they were just 202 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: like a straightforward funk band. They would have been the 203 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: Ohio Players then or something if that was what they 204 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: were doing. And the Ohio Players are great, you know, 205 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 1: but like the Ohio Players can like play circles around 206 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 1: the talking Heads if you're just doing like a straight 207 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 1: ahead funk type thing. Talking Heads were about taking this 208 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: music and giving you a perspective on it that was 209 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: different at the time and would make you look at 210 00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 1: it in a totally unique way. And again I think, yeah, 211 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:56,839 Speaker 1: Tina Weymouth was like such a huge part of that. 212 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, it just seems like generally David Byrne just 213 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: did not respect what she brought to the band, And 214 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: of course that ends up being a big theme of 215 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: Chris Francis book, And of course Tina is Chris his wife, 216 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: so he's even more protective of her in that regard. 217 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, from the beginning of this band, it just 218 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 1: seems like there were these two different camps in the 219 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: band that we're going to be fighting for control. She 220 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 1: gave an interview in the in the documentary Girls and Bands, 221 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: where she she claimed that David told her they thought 222 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: a woman's role really shouldn't be in the big world 223 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 1: because it was a dangerous place for women. So, according 224 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: to her. That was the kind of mentality she was 225 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 1: up against in the band, and I'm sure at the 226 00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:33,440 Speaker 1: culture at large and in the mid seventies and to 227 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,640 Speaker 1: your point, when you're an inexperienced young bass player, you're 228 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: so anxious to just hit the right notes and and 229 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:41,840 Speaker 1: to get there and just make sure your fingers in 230 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: the right place. You're not as focused on groove and 231 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 1: flow and just kind of like being a little bit 232 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,559 Speaker 1: more more liquid. I guess you're just you just want 233 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:52,480 Speaker 1: to hit it, and it gives it this funny, rigid 234 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: lock step sound that I think is really integral to 235 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: early punk and definitely the early Talking Heads. I think 236 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:00,440 Speaker 1: a lot of that sound where it's kind of herky, 237 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 1: jerky and rigid, is sort of where that came from. 238 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 1: It came from her, And this is gonna be something 239 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: that we're going to explore a bit in this episode 240 00:11:07,080 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: about like what made Talking Heads great, because I think 241 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: there's two different perspectives on that, depending on like what 242 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: camp you're in. I think David Byrne had an idea 243 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: of what the band was, what made them unique, and 244 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,760 Speaker 1: I think France and Weymouth had their own idea, and 245 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: ultimately I think it's what they brought together that is 246 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: what makes the talking heads like, you know, one of 247 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 1: the great American bands. I think. Yeah, there was definitely 248 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: like a war going on about like who is going 249 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: to be in control and what the direction of the 250 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: band was going to be. And it seems like in 251 00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,439 Speaker 1: the early days that when it was just Burn France 252 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:47,440 Speaker 1: and Weymouth, that they were basically a democracy. And it 253 00:11:47,480 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: makes me think of about the writing of the song 254 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: Warning Sign, for instance, which is a song on their 255 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 1: second record, more songs about buildings and food, but was 256 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: actually like among the first songs they ever wrote. And 257 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 1: it's also like one of the first big conflicts in 258 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: this band. Yeah, I think. Chris said that he wrote 259 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: it during during college. He wrote it almost completely on 260 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,079 Speaker 1: his own, years before David was even in the picture, 261 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 1: I think. And so they recorded it for their second 262 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,320 Speaker 1: album and then David made some tweaks to it and 263 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: just credited the song to himself, and Chris said that 264 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: he didn't really realize that until he got the finished 265 00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: record and saw that the credits on the on the 266 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:23,839 Speaker 1: sleeve and said, well, wait a minute, I did that, 267 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: and David, to his credit, uh, promised him that it 268 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,640 Speaker 1: would be fixed on future pressings and it was, but uh, 269 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,480 Speaker 1: it's something that kind of kept reoccurring. And again it 270 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: reminds me of the band too, whether it's something that 271 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 1: was creative so collectively that then when the record is released, 272 00:12:39,920 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: they look at and see this just credited the one 273 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: person and apologies are made. But it keeps happening again 274 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 1: and again and again. Well, yeah, it happens again. For 275 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: the song life during Wartime, which was on the next 276 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 1: Talking Heads record in nine Fear of Music, and that's 277 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: like one of the most famous songs. It's the song 278 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: where they say they ain't no party, they say no disco, 279 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: they ain't no fool it around. Like that song one 280 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: of the most quotable lines in any Talking Head song. 281 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: And according to France, that's a song that came out 282 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,640 Speaker 1: of a jam session between him and Tina. He says 283 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: that Tina actually wrote the vocal melody of that song, 284 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: and of course when the record comes out, it's credited 285 00:13:15,840 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: solely to David Byrne. And it's interesting to me this 286 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 1: whole idea about songwriting versus like the sound of a band, 287 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,000 Speaker 1: because obviously, when we talk about what makes money in 288 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 1: the band, like songwriting is huge, Like publishing is one 289 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: of the most reliable ways for a musician to make 290 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 1: a lot of money, like once they start making records 291 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 1: and often to like in terms of like how we 292 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: talk about music, it seems like fans and critics like 293 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,960 Speaker 1: we fixate on songwriting being the hallmark of like the 294 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: height of creativity, Like are you a great songwriter? That 295 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 1: means that you are like the au tour of the band, 296 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 1: like if you're writing the songs. But I feel like 297 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: songwriting and I don't know how you feel about this. 298 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: I feel like songwriting can be a little overrated that 299 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: a lot of times with the band, Yeah, you need 300 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: great songs, but it's also about this sort of intangible 301 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 1: chemistry that exists between musicians that ends up creating this 302 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:14,040 Speaker 1: unique sound, and that is just as important for a 303 00:14:14,080 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: band being great. It's just like that's harder to quantify. 304 00:14:18,120 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: Like you can point to a song on paper and 305 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 1: say this is what a song is, and we know 306 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: what it is. But that elusive chemistry thing, like you 307 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:28,080 Speaker 1: can't really put that on paper. It's just something that 308 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: exists and you know it when you hear it. I mean, 309 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 1: does that make sense? Yeah, it makes me think a 310 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: lot of the documentaries you see on like The Wrecking 311 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:38,120 Speaker 1: Crew or the The Funk Brothers, where I think Carol 312 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: Ka another incredible female bassist. I was talking about playing 313 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 1: the beat goes on the Sully and Share song, and 314 00:14:44,040 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 1: it was just this kind of straight ahead bland pop song, 315 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: and she came up with a bum bum bum bum 316 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: bum bum bum bum, which makes the song. I mean, 317 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 1: that's the hook of the song. And I don't think 318 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: she got anything for that other than the standard session rate. 319 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's interesting about what actually makes a song successful. 320 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: You can you can write all the notes of the 321 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: melody and write the chord sheets and everything down, but 322 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: there are these little magic moments when the band gets 323 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: together that really actually make it take off. And I 324 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: think the Talking Heads are great example of that, where 325 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: it is such a collective sound. And yeah, his words 326 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: are unbelievable, but but yeah, the rhythm especially, I mean 327 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:20,440 Speaker 1: you really, I mean Jerry Harrison when when he joined, 328 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 1: he was he was on their first one too, right, Yeah, 329 00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: he was on seventy seven after they had signed the side. Yeah, 330 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 1: I mean he brought a lot, but especially Chris and 331 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 1: Tina in the early club days before they were signed. 332 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: I mean, so much of it was about their rhythm 333 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: and groove, Yeah, I think. I mean there's two things 334 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:38,920 Speaker 1: I would say about songwriting and talking heads, and like 335 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 1: one could be a defensive burn and one could be 336 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: a defensive France and waymouth. Like on one hand, like 337 00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: when you read Chris France's book Remain in Love, you know, 338 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: he talks about warning signed, he talks about life during wartime. 339 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: He talks about the song Psycho Killer, like how all 340 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: the members of the band were throwing out lyrics and 341 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: how they basically wrote that song together. And there's also 342 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: so the example of remain in light that album. We're 343 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: going to talk about that in a minute, the collaborative 344 00:16:04,440 --> 00:16:06,800 Speaker 1: aspects of that. But for the most part in that book, 345 00:16:06,840 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 1: like there's not a ton of information about how songs 346 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: are written or like how albums are made. Like instead, 347 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: there's like a lot of material about like going on 348 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,480 Speaker 1: the road, including like a really long chapter that is 349 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: almost like a blow by blow account of their first 350 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: European tour. It's almost like too long, Like I had 351 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 1: to skip some parts of that chapter. I have to 352 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,560 Speaker 1: say too, Like when I read rock memoirs, I rarely 353 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: read them from cover to cover because like, I don't 354 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: care about the part before they got famous, and then 355 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: I don't really care about the part after they stopped 356 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: making great records, Like I only want the meat in there. 357 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: That's true of Chris France's book too. Yeah, And I 358 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: just feel like, you know, maybe he didn't include some 359 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 1: of that material about the making of Safe Fear of 360 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: Music or you know, speaking in tongues. But I feel 361 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,800 Speaker 1: like if they had been in on more songwriting sessions, 362 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: like he would have written about that, you know, because 363 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:03,040 Speaker 1: it just seems like that would have bolstered his case 364 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: for uh, them being these vital contributors to the songwriting 365 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 1: of the band. And there's a lot of stories in 366 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 1: there about like Chris being backstage and like partying and 367 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:15,120 Speaker 1: doing blow with like other people and having a great time, 368 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: and David Byrne is nowhere to be found, and I'm 369 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: just wondering at those moments, like, well, was David writing 370 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: songs at that time? He's probably like chilling out, you know, 371 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: I don't know. To me, like, if you read between 372 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 1: the lines in that book, there's a case to be 373 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: made that maybe David Byrne was doing a lot of 374 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: work while Chris was having some good times. On the 375 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 1: other hand, I do think, kind of going back to 376 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:38,120 Speaker 1: my point before that, with the Talking Heads, I think 377 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: they have great songs, but to me, their music is 378 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 1: just about the sound, or just as much about the 379 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,240 Speaker 1: sound as it is about the songs, like the way 380 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: that they play together. And to me, that's especially true 381 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: of to me, their greatest album, and like one of 382 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 1: the greatest albums ever made, Remain in Light. I think 383 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: Remain Light has great songs, but it's about how those 384 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: songs come together and just the crazy grooves and like 385 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: all the ideas that exist in that music. And to me, 386 00:18:05,040 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 1: that's about the band more than like any one person, 387 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: which is weird when you consider how it actually all 388 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: came together. Do you know the story it actually it 389 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: seemed like the band was about to break up after 390 00:18:14,240 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: their nineteen seventy nine European tour. Yeah, I heard that story. 391 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,240 Speaker 1: I mean, basically, like burn didn't he tell the journalist 392 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,200 Speaker 1: that he was like about to quit the band? Yeah, 393 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: And then the journalist goes and find Tina and Chris 394 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: and said, well, what do you have to say about this? 395 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: David just told me he's quitting and they essentially said, well, 396 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: that's news to us. And this is the point when uh, 397 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,720 Speaker 1: David and Brian Eno have been working more and more 398 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: closely together. Uh he's David wanted to kind of go 399 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: off and do more of stuff like My Life and 400 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,800 Speaker 1: In the Bush of Ghosts and albums like that. So Tina, Chris, 401 00:18:46,840 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: and Jerry booked their own sessions with Brian, Uh, just 402 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,359 Speaker 1: sort of instrumental sessions to jam in a way that 403 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: I always kind of took to sort of like make 404 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 1: David jealous and to kind of bring him back into 405 00:18:57,320 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: the fold like that and just say, Okay, well they're 406 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: all hanging out, maybe all joined too. And those early 407 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: sessions were what evolved in the Remaining Light, which you said, 408 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 1: I definitely think it's the most collaborative album they've ever made, 409 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: Like they really brought so many different elements to it. Yeah, 410 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:14,320 Speaker 1: And I think it started out with that idea too. 411 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: I think it was very much of an intentional thing, 412 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,960 Speaker 1: Like I think even Burne agreed at the beginning that 413 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: this was going to be a collaborative record, like we're 414 00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: all going to be working together, We're all going to 415 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: be you know, coming up with ideas, right. And the 416 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: amazing thing about that record is that it sounds like 417 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: they're working with loops, you know, or that you know 418 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 1: that they're sort of piecing this together maybe just like 419 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: in a studio somewhere. And there's obviously like a lot 420 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:38,879 Speaker 1: of overdubs on that album, but a lot of the 421 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: amazing music on that record was just it just came 422 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,520 Speaker 1: out of them playing together in the room. And um, 423 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:47,800 Speaker 1: it really does I think represent like a pretty high 424 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 1: level of creativity for a band. Could David Byrne have 425 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 1: done that record and he's working with like session musicians 426 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,800 Speaker 1: you know that that he just put together? You know? Possibly, 427 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,320 Speaker 1: you know, But I really feel like that record was 428 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 1: the combination of like those people working together, bringing other collaborators, 429 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: and just having that certain special chemistry that could create 430 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: an album that amazing. Yeah, I mean, you've got elements 431 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: of funk, you've got electronica, you've got these like African polyrhythms. 432 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: It sounds like something like Fella Cooty would have done 433 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: or something like that. And like you said, I don't 434 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: think that it probably would have ended up sounding almost 435 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: more like a Steely Dan type album if if he 436 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: just got a bunch of session guys in there. I 437 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: feel like, yeah, so you know they're working on this record, 438 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: and like you said, I think initially the idea of 439 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: them jamming together was just to get David burn back 440 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,399 Speaker 1: into the band because you know, he was working on 441 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: My Life and the Bush It goes with Brian Eno, 442 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: which is an amazing record by the way, um and 443 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: is I think somewhat similar to what they were doing 444 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: on The Remaining Light. But I think Remaining Light is ultimately, 445 00:20:47,960 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: you know, a greater record. But of course, when it 446 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: comes down to putting this record out, there's another disagreement 447 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,760 Speaker 1: about credits, and I mean, do you know the story. 448 00:20:56,760 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 1: I mean, initially, I think Brian Eno like wanted to 449 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: be credit it, like in the top line of the 450 00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: record that he wanted to be like Talking Heads and 451 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,399 Speaker 1: Brian Eno, and of course Talking Heads scuttled that idea. 452 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: But then there was another weird thing with the songwriting credits. 453 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, weren't they It was gonna be all alphabetical, 454 00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: and then David, probably with ENO's help, went and switched 455 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,800 Speaker 1: it around somehow. What did he do, Yeah, well, it's 456 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,560 Speaker 1: gonna be all the band members listen alphabetically like, like 457 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:22,639 Speaker 1: you said, so it would have been like, you know, 458 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,400 Speaker 1: David Byrne, Brian Eno, Chris France, Jerry Harrison, Tina Weymouth. 459 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,440 Speaker 1: And then when the record came out, it was David Byrne, 460 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: Briany no talking Heads, like everyone else in the band 461 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: was just put in to the talking Heads camp. And 462 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: again it was this idea of like David Byrne separating 463 00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,680 Speaker 1: himself from the rest of the band, when in reality 464 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 1: again I mean, look, no one is going to sort 465 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: of overlook David Byrne's contributions to that record. I mean, 466 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 1: I think vocally he sounds amazing on that record, and 467 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 1: I love his lyrics. But to me, that's like the 468 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 1: epitome of like a collaborative effort. And to say that 469 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 1: like David Burne's contributions or briany As contributions were anymore 470 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:03,239 Speaker 1: than the people in the band, it just seems like 471 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: kind of a cheesy move by Bird, you know, it 472 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: just doesn't seem warrant it. Yeah, I mean, just to 473 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: other himself like that from his own band, a really 474 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: weird move. Yeah. Reminds me think Gilligan's Island when they're 475 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: doing the theme and then they just do that and 476 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: the rest part No one like good Gilligan's Island rough Anyway, 477 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 1: it's always good to bring Gilligan's Island into an episode, 478 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,439 Speaker 1: all right, hand, We'll be right back with more rivals. 479 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 1: Another crazy thing that was happening around this time, of course, 480 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: was Tom Tom Club with with with Christentina, because you 481 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:44,360 Speaker 1: have David Byrne establishing his own solo thing. He's got 482 00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 1: My Life in the Bush of Ghosts and he's going 483 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: to do another album called The Catherine Wheel. And of 484 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: course I think David Byrne got like a pretty big 485 00:22:52,080 --> 00:22:54,239 Speaker 1: solo deal around this time, so he's getting a lot 486 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: of money to prey out these records, whereas Christentina they 487 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 1: started putting together Tom Time Club and there's no not 488 00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: a ton of interest I think from labels, but then 489 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: they end up having a huge success. And I know 490 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,199 Speaker 1: you're a big Tom Tom Club fan. Oh yeah, that 491 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: album is nuts because it reminds me of of sort 492 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,719 Speaker 1: of like the British beat boom in the early sixties 493 00:23:11,720 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: when you got a bunch of like like white students 494 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 1: trying to play the blues and they kind of screw 495 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 1: it up and they kind of make their own thing. 496 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 1: That's how I feel about Tom Tom Club in regards 497 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: to hearing emerging hip hop sounds out in the Bronx 498 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:24,680 Speaker 1: and they kind of do their own thing with it 499 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: and create something by accident that fuses a little more 500 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 1: electro and with hip hop and some late seventies influences, 501 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: and it's fascinating. I think anyone who doubts Christentina's contributions 502 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 1: to The Talking Heads should definitely get more into that record, 503 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: because it's it's so just so distinct and you see 504 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 1: so clearly what they brought to those two stuff like 505 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 1: Remain and Light. It's an incredible album and uh did 506 00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: very well, and I think David hated it. Yeah, it's right, 507 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: like they need to say it was like merely commercial, 508 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: merely popular. I think it was what he right. Yeah, 509 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: he was definitely like putting it down. But I think 510 00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,160 Speaker 1: it was pretty clear that he was jealous. I think 511 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: like like they could tell that it bothered him, so 512 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 1: like on some level they must have gotten some enjoyment 513 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:14,639 Speaker 1: out of, you know, how piste off he was, because 514 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: you know, again you know the records that he made 515 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,600 Speaker 1: at that time I think are really well regarded, especially 516 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: My life and The Bush of Ghosts. But you know, 517 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 1: clearly like that album wasn't a hit at all. I 518 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 1: mean it was more of like a critical favorite. And 519 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 1: then Tom Tom Club I think ended up going gold. 520 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: I think it beat Talking Heads the Growing Gold. I 521 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:35,040 Speaker 1: think that I don't think any of their albums have 522 00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: gone gold up to that point. So yeah, that, and 523 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: and David was doing Katherine Wheel with like was it 524 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: Twilight Harpe, I think was aiming for fine art credibility, 525 00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 1: and so you can see where he's coming from with 526 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,840 Speaker 1: this merely popular comments like well, okay, anyone could get 527 00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,040 Speaker 1: a number three song or whatever it was, but like 528 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: I'm I'm actually trying to make genuine, real fine arn't here. 529 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:59,680 Speaker 1: So that's creating a lot of tension obviously between David Christentina. 530 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: And you know, it's interesting looking at this in retrospect 531 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: because I feel like David would talk about this in 532 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: subsequent years that I think from his perspective, he was 533 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: almost like a guy that like wants to get out 534 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: of a bad relationship, but he doesn't have the guts 535 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 1: to break up with the girls, so he just starts 536 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: acting like a jerk, hoping that show break up with him. 537 00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:21,160 Speaker 1: Like that seems to be the dynamic at this time 538 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: because I think David would say later on he was like, 539 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 1: you know, like why did they want to be in 540 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,239 Speaker 1: a band with me? I mean they were unhappy, you know, 541 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: it seemed like there was a lot of tension. You know, 542 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: it's they would complain about David Byrne, but like they 543 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,440 Speaker 1: also wanted to keep working with him, and it seemed like, 544 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: you know, as they would go on in their career 545 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: that there was just you know, I guess starting with 546 00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: The Remaining Light where they had to sort of like 547 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: trick him to get into the studio that, um, you know, 548 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 1: every project that they would work on after that, including 549 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,919 Speaker 1: you know, music that we all love, like like the 550 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 1: album Speaking in Tongues, which I think which was the 551 00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: first platinum record that Talking has ever put out, and 552 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: then of course making Sense that concert film comes out 553 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: of that tour. It just seems like David Burne is 554 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,480 Speaker 1: taking more and more control and doing what he can 555 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: do to alienate Chriscentina. But like Christentina, they're upset about it, 556 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: but they won't actually split up the band. Yeah, you 557 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: would say in later years, Tina would send David these 558 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: letters that would just open up with paragraphs just calling 559 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,280 Speaker 1: him every name under the sun and what a jerk 560 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 1: he was, and all litany of all the things that 561 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 1: they've done to he'd done to wrong them, and then 562 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 1: at the end be like, so, so, why don't you 563 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:30,920 Speaker 1: want to be with us anymore? Why don't you want 564 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: to play with us? And he would get all confused 565 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: and said, well, you kind of answered your own question. 566 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:37,479 Speaker 1: You know, why would I want to be around these 567 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: people that clearly hating me as much as they do. 568 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,720 Speaker 1: And also, like you said, why do you want to 569 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,840 Speaker 1: be around me? Like this isn't good for anybody. It's 570 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: fascinating to me because you know, when you think about 571 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 1: the talking heads like in the early eighties, I think 572 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: a lot of us think about the film Stopped Making Sense, 573 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: which is, for my money, it's like the greatest concert 574 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 1: film ever made. I mean, you could maybe say the 575 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: last waltz would be in the conversation, but um, you know, 576 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: Stop Making Sense. It's such a blast of joy, you 577 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 1: know when you watch it and it's one of those 578 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: movies like I've seen it a couple of times in 579 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 1: movie theaters and people get up out of their seats 580 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,440 Speaker 1: and dance in the aisles like during that movie. I mean, 581 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 1: that's how infectious it is, and you just think like, 582 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: oh wow, like this is such a happy band and 583 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: and yet like they were going through such misery behind 584 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 1: the scenes, and like, you know, as as much as 585 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,240 Speaker 1: we associate like that tour with the film, that was 586 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: also their last tour, wasn't it. Yeah, that was the 587 00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: tour where David sort of like stormed off on stage. 588 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: They were playing I think the last show of the 589 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: tour down in New Zealand, and he started the show 590 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:51,119 Speaker 1: by by uh letting some protesters come up and and share. 591 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: I think it was an indigenous people's wanted to to 592 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: to share their what they had to say, and David 593 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,120 Speaker 1: let them up, and it did not go down well 594 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: with the crowd, who started booing them and the band. 595 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: So the vibe was already really bad when they started 596 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: to play and they get a few songs in and 597 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: David walks off the stage. I think it was like 598 00:28:08,920 --> 00:28:11,399 Speaker 1: after five songs or something and the others are just 599 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: kind of playing went from to come back, and I 600 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 1: think Chris goes and chases him and literally drags him 601 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: back on and David sr what do I want to 602 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: what do I want to play with these audiences? We 603 00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:22,760 Speaker 1: just have their feet stuck in the mud, which is 604 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 1: a weird thing to say. When it wasn't raining and 605 00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: it was just a miserable show, and he kind of 606 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: begrudgingly finished it. And then after the show there was 607 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: an after party, and I don't think David even showed up, 608 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: and it was just pretty clear by that point that 609 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:36,840 Speaker 1: that he was done and he didn't want to go 610 00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: on the road anymore. And every time the rest of 611 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 1: the band would mention it, he would just say, you know, 612 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: all you want is the money. You don't want to 613 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: go out there actually in the road. All you all 614 00:28:43,840 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: you want is money. So that would kind of moot 615 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,880 Speaker 1: any uh any touring discussions. And then there was this 616 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: weird thing which I when I read this, I couldn't 617 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 1: really believe that this was even on the table. But 618 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: I think Chris and Tina like approached Adrian Blue, who 619 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: was like this brilliant guitar player. He was a good 620 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,520 Speaker 1: he was a touring member of the Talking Heads in 621 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: the early eighties. He'd also like played with I think 622 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: he played like with did he play with the David 623 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: Bowie and like King Crimson. I mean, like he has 624 00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 1: a great rock like pedigree, and um, they approached Adrian 625 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,080 Speaker 1: Blue about becoming the new frontman of Talking Heads. There's 626 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: been some debate in laters as to whether or not 627 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: that was what they were actually offering, or or inviting 628 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: him to actually just join the band as a as 629 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:28,560 Speaker 1: another guitarist. But yeah, what wisely, uh, he was kind 630 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: of like no, no, thank you. I don't really the 631 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,120 Speaker 1: ship seems to be going down at this point, because 632 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: it was pretty clear that that they were not a 633 00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: happy group by this point. Yeah. So you know, they 634 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: played this terrible show in New Zealand. You know Burn, 635 00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, storms off stage. He says he doesn't want 636 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: to tour anymore, and you would think that like maybe 637 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: at that point the writing should have been on the wall, 638 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: you know that, Like okay, like David doesn't want to 639 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: tour anymore, he's less and less interested in our input. 640 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,840 Speaker 1: And then you get into those like last couple Talking 641 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 1: Heads records. You have like The Little Creatures comes out 642 00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,360 Speaker 1: in Hive and then you have True Stories comes out 643 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,760 Speaker 1: in eighty six. It's a soundtrack to a film that 644 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: David Byrne directed, And I mean those albums, you know, 645 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: as much as like Remain in Light feels like a 646 00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: very collaborative album, Like those albums feel like David Byurne 647 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: solo records where the band is backing him up. I mean, 648 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: is that fair to say, because I know that like 649 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:23,880 Speaker 1: for Little Creatures, for instance, like David Burne just like 650 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: came into the studio with like finished songs I think 651 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 1: for the first time ever, and it seemed like more 652 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: than ever, like at that point, he was just presenting 653 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: his songs to the band. Yeah, he was pretty explicit 654 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: about saying, you know, all right, you want to make 655 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 1: a regular with me, I'm going to handle the songs. 656 00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: And he would come in with like tapes on his 657 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: boom box and play it to the band say Okay, 658 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: this is what we're gonna do. But I think that 659 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: there was still a lot of group arrangement going on, 660 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: to which which Chris says in his book the bandn't 661 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: really get credit for and and they were almost sort 662 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 1: of used to it by that point. They were just like, Okay, 663 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:54,200 Speaker 1: this is what he's like, this is how he is. 664 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,920 Speaker 1: If if we're gonna make music with him, that's the deal. 665 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: We're just gonna keep on making good music and we'll 666 00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,160 Speaker 1: keep on Owen as a band, because I think at 667 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: that point again you use the abusive relationship analogy, and 668 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: they were kind of like, well, I'm being treated really poorly, 669 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: but this band is the most important thing. It's more 670 00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:12,719 Speaker 1: important than me, it's more important than him, it's more 671 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: important than all of us. It's all about the band, 672 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,680 Speaker 1: and if we want to stay together, I'm just gonna 673 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,239 Speaker 1: take what every dish is out. So you said they 674 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: were really reduced aside, and then by that point, you know, 675 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: this is such an issue. I don't know what your 676 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: take is on this, but like you know, when I 677 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,280 Speaker 1: read Chris Francis book, there are a lot of things 678 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: I was sympathetic about, and we've talked about some of 679 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 1: those things already, you know again, like the warning sign example, 680 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: like during wartime, remaining light, you know, the weird things 681 00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: that happened with the songwriting credits there. I think that's 682 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: all legitimate. I have to say that at this moment 683 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:43,959 Speaker 1: in time, this idea of that like I'm just going 684 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: to be a doormat for David Byrne. I have a 685 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: hard time accepting this because Chris and Tina, they had 686 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: Time Time Club. You know, they've had success with that. 687 00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 1: It's like, why are you still in this situation where 688 00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: you feel so poorly treated? I just don't understand the 689 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: motivation would have been unless it was economic. I mean really, 690 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: I mean that that seems like the only explanation that, like, 691 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 1: we're in this very successful band, and you know, as 692 00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: much as we don't like David Byrne, maybe on some 693 00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: level we recognize that we will be much better off 694 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: financially if we're with him. I mean, is that the 695 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 1: only explanation for them still being a band like at 696 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 1: this point, like in the mid eighties. I mean the book, 697 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: you get the impression that Chris in the book is 698 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: very naive is the right word, but sort of like 699 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,719 Speaker 1: wide eyed, and you get the idea that that he 700 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 1: is overblown, just completely bowled over by David's talent too. 701 00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:33,000 Speaker 1: So if you're going to take the less cynical approach 702 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:35,440 Speaker 1: and say, maybe it wasn't just purely we're in this 703 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: huge band that could net us a ton of money 704 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: with albums and tours, maybe they just wanted to work 705 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:42,960 Speaker 1: with him because they thought he was such a genius artist. 706 00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: That's that's my my more optimistic approach to it. Yeah, 707 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 1: I mean I think there's that's true on some level, 708 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,360 Speaker 1: But I have to go back to like the reading 709 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: between the lines aspect, which I feel like with a 710 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,239 Speaker 1: lot of rock memoirs you have to do. You have 711 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:58,640 Speaker 1: to like read what they're saying, but then you also 712 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:00,640 Speaker 1: have to look at like what they're leaving out. And 713 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,840 Speaker 1: to me, what's left out of this story is maybe 714 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 1: an acknowledgment that they were not going to be as 715 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 1: successful without David Byrne as they were with him, and 716 00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: that David Burnett by this time had enough celebrity where 717 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: right or wrong, he could assume the mantle of Talking 718 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,600 Speaker 1: Heads on his own, which has proved to be true 719 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,880 Speaker 1: after the band broke up. Like as much as David 720 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: Byrne has like not wanted to reunite with the band, 721 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: he also hasn't been shy about exploiting the legacy of 722 00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: Talking Heads like for his own benefit. And I think 723 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,480 Speaker 1: he learned at some point that, like, I can play 724 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,440 Speaker 1: these songs on my own and I can reap the 725 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: benefits of it without having to deal with these other 726 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: people that I'm maybe sick of being around. Um, you know, 727 00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 1: there must have been maybe some realization on the part 728 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: of Chris and perhaps Tina, Like I think there's probably 729 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: some powerlessness that they were experiencing at that time. It's 730 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:54,400 Speaker 1: like it sucks for them that that ended up being true, 731 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: but like that seems to be how things unfolded, because 732 00:33:57,800 --> 00:33:59,920 Speaker 1: if you look at their breakup, you know, I think 733 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: the breakup was announced in and it was after David 734 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: Byrne did this interview. I think he was talking to 735 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 1: the Los Angeles Times. And by the way, this was 736 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 1: like three years after the last Talking Heads record, which 737 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:17,279 Speaker 1: was Naked came out. No tour for that album, of course, um, 738 00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,919 Speaker 1: and David Byrne, I think had already gotten his solo 739 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:23,520 Speaker 1: career going by that point. And if you look at 740 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: that l A Times interview, like David Bryne just basically 741 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 1: snaps at this reporter, right like the reports asking about 742 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: Talking Heads, and he's like, dude, we broke up, alright, 743 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,160 Speaker 1: we broke up or whatever I think is the quote. 744 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,240 Speaker 1: Isn't it something like that? Yeah, he's promoting oh solo 745 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:37,920 Speaker 1: album and the only interview wants to do is ask 746 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:39,600 Speaker 1: about when the next Talking Heads record is coming. And 747 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,680 Speaker 1: he found you could say we've broken up, call it 748 00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: whatever you like, stops that line of questioning dead. And 749 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,640 Speaker 1: of course Tina, Chris and Jerry knew nothing about this, 750 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 1: and they found out when the interview was published. Just 751 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:54,160 Speaker 1: cold well, and I mean, I love this story, even 752 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:55,520 Speaker 1: though it's kind of sad. I mean, they ended up 753 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 1: having like one final band meeting, and David has a 754 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,319 Speaker 1: pretty amazing quote, like a a parting shot, like do 755 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: you do you know what he said? I really want 756 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: to hear you said, Well, he said, you know again. 757 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: It's kind of going back to this thing that I 758 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 1: was talking about before about how I think in David 759 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: Burne's mind he was acting in a way that like 760 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 1: should have made the band want to dump him. Yeah, 761 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 1: It's like I don't want to break up with you, 762 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:22,080 Speaker 1: but I'm making it clear that like you should break 763 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: up with me. And at one point he just like 764 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: yells at the other people in the band, David Byrne, 765 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: He says, you should be calling me an asshole. You know, 766 00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 1: It's like it's like he snaps. It's almost like he 767 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: lost respect for them because they didn't stand up to him. 768 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:38,320 Speaker 1: You know. That seemed to be the dynamic at the 769 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,319 Speaker 1: end of the band and then they would say later 770 00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 1: years Christent Tina would say, you know, we thought that 771 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: if we just kind of like smiled and took it 772 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: and just like waited it out, like he would come 773 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,680 Speaker 1: back like he did for Remain in Light and everything. 774 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:51,279 Speaker 1: And and finally it was clear at this point, you 775 00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: know how many years twelve years after remand and like that, 776 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: that the rest of the band weren't getting the memo. 777 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: David didn't want to be there. So then he screams, 778 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: you should be calling me an asshole, which again said 779 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,359 Speaker 1: incredible parting shot. So one of the weirdest things for me, 780 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: like after that breakup that occurs in one was the 781 00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: story of the Heads, that sort of reunion record. Do 782 00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: you remember that record? I couldn't get into it, even 783 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 1: though they had some great names on it. I mean 784 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:19,440 Speaker 1: they had Debbie Harry, any Partridge, the guy from an 785 00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 1: Excess to from Happy Mondays like, but yeah, I didn't 786 00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,640 Speaker 1: find it very listenable. Yeah, Like the idea was that 787 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:28,400 Speaker 1: the three band members of the Talking Heads, you know, 788 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: Chris Tina and Jerry Harrison. Poor Jerry Harrison, by the way, 789 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: who we have not really talked about. It seemed like 790 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:36,440 Speaker 1: he was just sort of on the sidelines of all this, 791 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: and of course he ended up joining the band after 792 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: they got their record deal for Talking Had seventy seven, 793 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: and seemed like he was sort of like outside of 794 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,279 Speaker 1: a lot of this psycho drama going on between David Christentina. 795 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:49,640 Speaker 1: But anyway, like on the Heads record, which by the way, 796 00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: was called No Talking Just Head uh, which is like 797 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: the best part of that record is the album title, 798 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 1: like it's all downhill from there. But yeah, like the 799 00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 1: idea was that like they would play and they'd have 800 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 1: different singers perform on each song, and I feel like 801 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:07,359 Speaker 1: all that album did was underscore how the Talking Heads 802 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,200 Speaker 1: are not as interesting if David Byrne is not the 803 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: lead singer. That like, as great as the band is 804 00:37:12,280 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 1: that if you have Michael Hutchins singing, it's just not 805 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,560 Speaker 1: the same thing as great as Michael Hutchins's. Michael Hutchins 806 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: should be in excess. You shouldn't be in Talking Heads, 807 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, all those other people they should be doing 808 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: their own thing. They shouldn't be in the Talking Heads. 809 00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 1: So it's like that's like a tribute album move to 810 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: have like a different singer on every song, to like 811 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:32,400 Speaker 1: that that just confused me too, Like I couldn't I 812 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: couldn't get comfortable with what I was hearing because I 813 00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:36,440 Speaker 1: felt like every time, every new song was just a 814 00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: totally different thing, another thing I feel like we should 815 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,600 Speaker 1: talk about. And I feel a little weird about this 816 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: because this book I think is kind of problematic. Uh. 817 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: It's a Talking Heads biography that came out in two 818 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,919 Speaker 1: thousand two, written by David Bowman. It's called This Must 819 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: be the Place The Adventures of Talking Heads in the 820 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: twentieth Century. And I feel like the most memorable part 821 00:37:56,320 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 1: of this book has to deal with Tina and David's relationship. 822 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,360 Speaker 1: And I mean, is am I going too far to 823 00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: suggest that that book is like a hatchet job against 824 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: Tina Weymouth. I mean, it's pretty brutal toward her. Oh yeah, 825 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 1: I mean he characterizes Tina as a little brittle with 826 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: the vibe of a Catholic saint or maybe a tragically 827 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: lame prima ballerina, or maybe Valerie Salonis, the woman who 828 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:26,440 Speaker 1: shot Andy Warhol. So yeah, and that's just describing her. 829 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,480 Speaker 1: That's not even the stuff that he alleges that she did. Yeah, 830 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:31,960 Speaker 1: I mean, can you tell the baby penis story. I mean, 831 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:34,120 Speaker 1: this blows me away. I thought I thought you ever 832 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:39,439 Speaker 1: asked the baby penis aspect of this book. I don't. 833 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: I don't know whether to take it at based value 834 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: or not. I feel like we should preface this by 835 00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,280 Speaker 1: saying that, like a lot of these stories are based 836 00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: on like unnamed sources who are maybe I'm guessing our 837 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: good friends of David Byrne and I don't know if 838 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: David put them up to this or if they just 839 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: felt they need to defend him, But yeah, the baby 840 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,359 Speaker 1: penis story is definitely the weirdest well in Bowman book, 841 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: he claims that Tina would call several of David's old 842 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,359 Speaker 1: friends in the middle of the night to tell them 843 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,320 Speaker 1: that he had and now I'm quoting a baby penis, 844 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: which is I think unprecedented in the you know, post 845 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: band breakup fallout like revenge moves, I've never heard of that. 846 00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:19,920 Speaker 1: That is extremely if you have baby penis on your 847 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:24,799 Speaker 1: rivals bingo card, congratulations. I know you didn't expect to 848 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,760 Speaker 1: mark that, but yeah, we we have our first baby 849 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,640 Speaker 1: penis and uh in a rival's episode and then she 850 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: also apparently allegedly claimed that David killed the boy at 851 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: a party in Brazil using voodoo. Uh. She said that 852 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,120 Speaker 1: there was an article the Bowman Road, I think for Salon, 853 00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 1: and this is she's quoted as saying David is a 854 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: vampire in a way. Uh, it might be something more complex. 855 00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:51,880 Speaker 1: Psychics have seen him and they say he just has 856 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,880 Speaker 1: a firewall around him. Ah. That's a scary quote. Uh. 857 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: And and Bowman's sort of he thinks that this is 858 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: born out of Tina is actually secretly in love with David, 859 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: that they had had some relationship back at riz Dy 860 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,399 Speaker 1: and it didn't work out, and now she's just trying 861 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,439 Speaker 1: to destroy him. That's I think where he's coming from 862 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:16,839 Speaker 1: with this, which is like, you know, that's a that's 863 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:19,359 Speaker 1: distasteful to me. I guess I'll put it that way. 864 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 1: So there's something very there's something very sort of stereotypical 865 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: about painting. Tina Weymouth is like some sort of scorned woman, 866 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: especially since her husband is also in the band. I 867 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:32,799 Speaker 1: I don't know that. I mean that I have a 868 00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:35,120 Speaker 1: hard time sort of wrapping my head around. I mean, 869 00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: one thing that I think does make sense to me 870 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,440 Speaker 1: that in the in the book, you know, there's you know, 871 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,680 Speaker 1: David Byrne is basically again kind of reiterating this idea 872 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: that like Chris and I guess, you know, I guess 873 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,680 Speaker 1: especially Tina like really came to hate him by the 874 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: end of the band. And there's a quote in there 875 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,719 Speaker 1: we'd say, you know, they'd say, what a fucking dumb 876 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,200 Speaker 1: jerk and asshole piece of shit I was. Uh. And 877 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: he's referring to like letters that Tina would send to 878 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,200 Speaker 1: him supposed lead and he said it would go into 879 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: detail about how badly I behaved, what a terrible person 880 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:05,839 Speaker 1: I was, how hard I was to work with, how 881 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,399 Speaker 1: unfair I was. It was this thing meant to make 882 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,719 Speaker 1: me feel real terrible, and how much I hate you. 883 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: I hate you, I hate you. Uh. And then in 884 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 1: the end she'd go, why don't you want to work 885 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: with us? And he says, you've answered the question. There's 886 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,920 Speaker 1: some kind of weird denial going on, and I have 887 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,880 Speaker 1: to say, you know, and again like not knowing what's 888 00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 1: true or what's exaggerated. The core of that argument, this 889 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,120 Speaker 1: idea that like Chris and Tina have both talked about 890 00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: how much they hate David Byrne, all the terrible things 891 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: that he's done in the band. If you take all 892 00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,960 Speaker 1: that at face value, it's like, why do you want 893 00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:37,919 Speaker 1: to keep working with this guy? Like this guy who's 894 00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: you say has taken credit from you, who you know 895 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: hogs the spotlight, who you feel like it's not a 896 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:48,000 Speaker 1: good friend or collaborator, and yet there's always this continued 897 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:51,120 Speaker 1: desire to get back together. That's the strange thing about 898 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: the story that doesn't make sense. Like if you could 899 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,560 Speaker 1: just say, like I don't want to be around this guy, 900 00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: which I kind of feel like that is the ultimate 901 00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: message of Chris France's book at the end. I mean 902 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: maybe they are at that point now, but yeah, like 903 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:08,279 Speaker 1: it's a strange this cycle of abuse baby in this relationship, 904 00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,839 Speaker 1: it's like, just stay broken up. As much as we 905 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,319 Speaker 1: want to see them get back together, in a way 906 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,400 Speaker 1: like for the emotional and psychological health of the people involved, 907 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,360 Speaker 1: it's probably best that they don't, right. I Mean I 908 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,280 Speaker 1: can almost see wanting to just sort of make peace 909 00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 1: with the situation and not end on such such bad terms. 910 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: Because because the point I mention, David Byurn tried to 911 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 1: sue uh Tina and Chris when they put the heads together. 912 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,480 Speaker 1: He tried to sue them for for for using the 913 00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: head's name. He thought it was a pretty blatant attempt 914 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: to cash in on the Talking Heads brand that that 915 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,400 Speaker 1: David was a part of UH. And I think they 916 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,759 Speaker 1: ended up settling UH in exchange for letting David have 917 00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 1: total control over over putting out future catalog reissues and 918 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:50,680 Speaker 1: stuff like that, which is kind of a big concession, 919 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:54,360 Speaker 1: letting him sort of have control over the musical legacy 920 00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: of the band going forward to But so there are 921 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: was a lot of of of bad blood between in them, 922 00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: and so maybe you could argue that they just want 923 00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,479 Speaker 1: to be like, Okay, one more time for old time's sake, 924 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: let's make it good and then go our separate ways forever, 925 00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,879 Speaker 1: which they kind of did at the Rock and Roll 926 00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:12,640 Speaker 1: Hall of Fame. Yeah, but even there there was weirdness. 927 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,360 Speaker 1: Like in the Chris France book, he tells the story 928 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:17,600 Speaker 1: about how you know they were together at the Rock 929 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 1: and Roll Hall of Fame. They ended up playing a 930 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: bunch of songs together. It seems like the rehearsals like 931 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,600 Speaker 1: went pretty smooth, and then at the party that night, 932 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:29,560 Speaker 1: like after the ceremony, David Byrne ghosted his wife at 933 00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:31,799 Speaker 1: the time, left her alone at the party and then 934 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:34,759 Speaker 1: later told Chris that that was the night that he 935 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,799 Speaker 1: decided that he was going to divorce his wife of 936 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,440 Speaker 1: several decades. Yeah, exactly. Like so he essentially like left 937 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,080 Speaker 1: his wife after the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame ceremony. 938 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,719 Speaker 1: I mean, look like David Byrne is a weirdo. I 939 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,200 Speaker 1: think we can say that that he's a weird guy. Emotionally, 940 00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure that he was very frustrating to deal with, 941 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: and like I my heart goes out to the other 942 00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: people in Talking Heads who you know, had to put 943 00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: up with that. But it to expect him to act differently, 944 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 1: I mean that is the definition of insanity. You know, 945 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 1: to expect a different results when you have decade of 946 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 1: evidence of a person acting in a certain way, you know, 947 00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:12,839 Speaker 1: at the point you got to catch in your chips 948 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,360 Speaker 1: and walk away. And I feel like when you see 949 00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: this guy that you've known forever to be an on 950 00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: ball and to be emotionally difficult, and you see that, 951 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,239 Speaker 1: like right after receiving this great honor from the Rock 952 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:24,960 Speaker 1: and Roll Hall of Fame, that's when he decides to 953 00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: leave his wife, and like he does it just by 954 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 1: ghosting her at the party. You're not going to reconcile 955 00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:31,200 Speaker 1: with this guy. You know, you're not going to get 956 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,839 Speaker 1: the emotional closure that you need. I mean, it just 957 00:44:33,880 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: seems like it's impossible with a person like that. There 958 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,799 Speaker 1: is a lot to impact there. And to your your 959 00:44:38,800 --> 00:44:41,000 Speaker 1: point earlier about like maybe we just trying to send 960 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,200 Speaker 1: the band the message by acting horribly and trying to 961 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: get them to leave him, maybe by getting back together 962 00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: with a band. Then that he realized, oh, that approach 963 00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,680 Speaker 1: doesn't work with in this case, my wife that I 964 00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: want to leave. So maybe after being on stage with 965 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,839 Speaker 1: these people, he said, you know what, pass mcgression doesn't 966 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: work when you're end a relationship. Honey, we're done. So 967 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,840 Speaker 1: maybe that was when he got out of it. Who knows. 968 00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,479 Speaker 1: So in reality it was a happy ending. He learned 969 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:06,920 Speaker 1: a lesson and he was like, yeah, you know what, 970 00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:11,480 Speaker 1: instead of passive aggressive behavior, I'll just leave just jet 971 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: and that's how I'll break up with my wife. So 972 00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 1: you know that, the more you know, you know life lessons. 973 00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,160 Speaker 1: Right there, we're gonna take a quick break to get 974 00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 1: a word from our sponsor before we get to more rivals. 975 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:34,920 Speaker 1: All right, so we've now reached the part of the 976 00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: episode where we talked about the pro side of each 977 00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 1: part of the rivalry, and let's start with David Byrne. 978 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: You know, we've gone through some of the sins that 979 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,240 Speaker 1: he committed when he was in Talking Head, Stealing songwriting credits, 980 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:49,880 Speaker 1: being a glory hug, just being like a general weirdo. 981 00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:53,440 Speaker 1: I guess in terms of like just interpersonal relationships. It 982 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,160 Speaker 1: also must be said that he is like one of 983 00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: the greatest and most unique frontman and rock history. And 984 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,120 Speaker 1: I really think that he's like a pretty wonderful singer, 985 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: definitely an original, you know singer, And I don't think 986 00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:08,440 Speaker 1: there's like a real dispute, you know, aside from the 987 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,480 Speaker 1: examples that we mentioned specifically that he was like the 988 00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:16,400 Speaker 1: main driving force behind the songwriting of the band um 989 00:46:16,480 --> 00:46:19,920 Speaker 1: and I don't doubt that he like took more credit 990 00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,719 Speaker 1: than he deserved. I think that's true of like a 991 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,720 Speaker 1: lot of lead singers, a lot of like so called 992 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 1: tours and bands. You know, the people that we look 993 00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,040 Speaker 1: at as being the people in charge. Often if you 994 00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:32,400 Speaker 1: talk to the other people in that person's band, they'll 995 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,440 Speaker 1: they'll be upset that they feel like they're not getting 996 00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,719 Speaker 1: the proper credit. You know, I think that's like a 997 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,680 Speaker 1: well established story that we've talked about in many other 998 00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: episodes of the show. But again, at the end of 999 00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:44,279 Speaker 1: the day, there's a reason why David Byrne is the 1000 00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:47,400 Speaker 1: star of the band. He's the most charismatic person and uh, 1001 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: I think he's probably the most unique part of the band. 1002 00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,880 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, absolutely, And my favorite thing about him. And 1003 00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,400 Speaker 1: you could say that he's an incredible musician, uh, an 1004 00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:59,879 Speaker 1: incredible sort of like elder Statesman of rock or whatever, 1005 00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:03,840 Speaker 1: but I think that his his lyrics are my favorite 1006 00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,400 Speaker 1: part of what he does. And I love his books 1007 00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,759 Speaker 1: as well for the same reason because it's just sort 1008 00:47:07,760 --> 00:47:10,719 Speaker 1: of it's not poetic in your flowery in any way. 1009 00:47:10,760 --> 00:47:13,960 Speaker 1: It just slices through artifice and just gets to like 1010 00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:16,719 Speaker 1: the very just weirdness of being alive. I always thought 1011 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,160 Speaker 1: of him as like being more of an anthropologist in 1012 00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:22,279 Speaker 1: a way too, and it makes he comments on things 1013 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,560 Speaker 1: that we all do with this sense of like isn't 1014 00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,040 Speaker 1: that weird? I mean, you've got just absurdity with things 1015 00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:31,040 Speaker 1: like making flippy floppy or just like I remember he 1016 00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 1: had a song on his latest album, UH called Bullet 1017 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,080 Speaker 1: where he just tells the story of a murder from 1018 00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:38,719 Speaker 1: the point of view of a bullet, and I just 1019 00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,320 Speaker 1: thought that was so it almost like a yoko on 1020 00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: No set of lyrics or something. I always thought that 1021 00:47:42,560 --> 00:47:45,440 Speaker 1: his lyrics were like conceptual art where there is no 1022 00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: real poetry around. It was I'm presenting you with this item, 1023 00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,280 Speaker 1: with this object. You figure out why I am showing 1024 00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:53,879 Speaker 1: you this. You figure out why this has meaning for me. 1025 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,200 Speaker 1: And that's something that I always really appreciated about his work. 1026 00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,760 Speaker 1: So if you go to the pro Chris and Tina side, 1027 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,919 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna go back to an argument I made 1028 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 1: earlier in this episode, which is that I think Talking 1029 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,240 Speaker 1: Heads there's a lot of great songs in their catalog, 1030 00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, and songs that have been covered by other 1031 00:48:10,719 --> 00:48:13,960 Speaker 1: artists and and and they can really stand alone as songs. However, 1032 00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: I do feel like the greatest music of this band's career, 1033 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,319 Speaker 1: and I guess I'll start with Remaining Light being at 1034 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,239 Speaker 1: the top of that list. Are as much to do 1035 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:23,799 Speaker 1: with the sound of the band as it has to 1036 00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:27,759 Speaker 1: do with songwriting. And if David Byrne had taken his 1037 00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:31,480 Speaker 1: songs and just performed them with a studio band, it 1038 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,800 Speaker 1: would he would not come up with something like Remain 1039 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:36,760 Speaker 1: in Light. You know, that was the result of again 1040 00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:41,799 Speaker 1: this very hard to quantify but extremely crucial chemistry that 1041 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:45,520 Speaker 1: existed between these musicians. And when you think about Talking 1042 00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:47,719 Speaker 1: Head songs, what makes them go a lot of the 1043 00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,200 Speaker 1: time is the rhythm section. You know, there's great grooves 1044 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,800 Speaker 1: and their grooves that like not only are really funky 1045 00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,759 Speaker 1: and danceable, but like they're not played in sort of 1046 00:48:56,760 --> 00:49:00,359 Speaker 1: a conventional funk, R and B type way. They're something 1047 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,320 Speaker 1: a little different about it, a little off kilter. That's 1048 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:06,120 Speaker 1: just totally unique to this band, and it's what to 1049 00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:09,279 Speaker 1: this day I think makes those records hold up so well. 1050 00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,120 Speaker 1: I mean, those first five records that Talking Heads put out, 1051 00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:13,960 Speaker 1: I mean there's for me, that's like some of the 1052 00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:18,240 Speaker 1: greatest music ever made. And um, Christentina I think, along 1053 00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,279 Speaker 1: with Jerry Harrison, deserve a lot of credit for how 1054 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: those records sound. And as much as you want to 1055 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:27,279 Speaker 1: say that David Byrne, as I said before, I think 1056 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:29,960 Speaker 1: he's a totally unique frontman. I think he's charismatic, I 1057 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,920 Speaker 1: think he wrote some great lyrics. The sound of Talking Heads, 1058 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,320 Speaker 1: to me is what pulls me back into those records. 1059 00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,120 Speaker 1: Time and again, and Christentina have a lot to do 1060 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,319 Speaker 1: with that. I'm trying to think now, I can't think 1061 00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,880 Speaker 1: of a single Talking Heads cover that I've ever heard 1062 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,839 Speaker 1: that has stuck with me. I'm really trying to think. 1063 00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,080 Speaker 1: For all of their really iconic songs, I I'm coming, 1064 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: I'm sure of thinking anyone's actually cover them in a 1065 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,480 Speaker 1: way that I remember. Right now, I can't even think 1066 00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:55,640 Speaker 1: of anything. I think that, as you said, speaks to 1067 00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,440 Speaker 1: the power of the band dynamic as a whole, as 1068 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:01,160 Speaker 1: opposed to David Byrne writing great songs. I don't know 1069 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,200 Speaker 1: how those songs would work if somebody else rearranged them 1070 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 1: in performing a different way. I think, I'm sure there's 1071 00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:07,640 Speaker 1: a way to do it in a way that that 1072 00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,919 Speaker 1: that's that's interesting and and would show a different side 1073 00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,200 Speaker 1: of it. But yeah, it's it's the sound of all 1074 00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: those records that make them so special to me. And 1075 00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:17,839 Speaker 1: that sound was something that I think Chris, at least 1076 00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:19,759 Speaker 1: that's what he says in his book, set out to 1077 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:21,400 Speaker 1: do at the very beginning, was kind of like a 1078 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 1: dancy art rock band. I mean, of course could be 1079 00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:26,720 Speaker 1: self serving to say that in retrospect, but it seems 1080 00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,560 Speaker 1: like getting the rhythm section together first and having sort 1081 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,319 Speaker 1: of a mission to do this. Uh, it was such 1082 00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,439 Speaker 1: an important, uh keystone for the band. So I agree. 1083 00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:37,279 Speaker 1: And also, like I said earlier, I think Tina is 1084 00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,360 Speaker 1: just a beast of a bass player. She's the pulse 1085 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,040 Speaker 1: of the band. I mean, bringing just funk down to 1086 00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,880 Speaker 1: that that CBGBs seen like a blast of like the 1087 00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,839 Speaker 1: famous flames in Parliament. I just think she's the best. 1088 00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,319 Speaker 1: I love her. Her minimalism mixed with funk. I think 1089 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,520 Speaker 1: is so unique to her. Yeah, David Byrne making her 1090 00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:58,959 Speaker 1: try it all those times, that's lame, dude. You should 1091 00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,319 Speaker 1: have been sent her feet man, that she was in 1092 00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 1: your band. I think when we think about the Talking 1093 00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:07,000 Speaker 1: Heads together, you know, this is an argument I think 1094 00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,200 Speaker 1: you could make for like a lot of the sort 1095 00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,880 Speaker 1: of like inner band rivalries that we've talked about in 1096 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:14,880 Speaker 1: this show, which is that it's really like two halves 1097 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:18,200 Speaker 1: of the same hole. That the band as it worked 1098 00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,000 Speaker 1: would not be as successful or as great if you 1099 00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:24,000 Speaker 1: didn't have these people coming together. And I think that 1100 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:25,920 Speaker 1: speaks to you know, like when you look at the 1101 00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:29,280 Speaker 1: careers that these musicians have had outside of Talking Heads 1102 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,640 Speaker 1: you know, as beloved as David Burns, and like you know, 1103 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,040 Speaker 1: you mentioned American Utopia that was a big hit on Broadway. 1104 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,920 Speaker 1: That is drawing a lot on his Talking Heads material, 1105 00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:42,840 Speaker 1: and like he's put out like good solo records. But 1106 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 1: like I know, like when I saw him live about 1107 00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,360 Speaker 1: ten years ago, he would play a solo song and 1108 00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 1: it was like very nice and people would enjoy it. 1109 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,239 Speaker 1: Then he play a Talking Head song and it was 1110 00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:54,239 Speaker 1: like someone let the theater on fire, you know, it 1111 00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:58,439 Speaker 1: was the contrast could not be anymore telling. And these 1112 00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:02,719 Speaker 1: musicians just did not achieve separately what they were able 1113 00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: to do together. And I think that really says it all. Yeah, 1114 00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean, at the risk of sound and reductive. I 1115 00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:11,160 Speaker 1: think about when Christentina did Tom Tom Club, which was, 1116 00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:14,360 Speaker 1: you know, quotes merely popular, and David was doing the 1117 00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:17,560 Speaker 1: sort of high falutant fine art of Katherine Wheel. I 1118 00:52:17,560 --> 00:52:20,759 Speaker 1: think putting that together, the sort of fine art and 1119 00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,560 Speaker 1: the genius level of his song craft with these elements, 1120 00:52:24,560 --> 00:52:26,640 Speaker 1: these dance elements that did make it popular, I think 1121 00:52:26,719 --> 00:52:30,160 Speaker 1: that was was the alchemy there, right exactly. Yeah, I 1122 00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,680 Speaker 1: just put it together, put genius of love with like 1123 00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:35,800 Speaker 1: some cool like you know cut and paste lyrics, you 1124 00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:38,320 Speaker 1: know from David Byrne, that would have been amazing. Well, 1125 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,919 Speaker 1: you know, Jordan have to tell you that I feel 1126 00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 1: really lucky to be host of the show. Sometimes I 1127 00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,239 Speaker 1: have a breakdown and I wonder, this is not my 1128 00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:49,200 Speaker 1: beautiful show, this is not my beautiful co host. How 1129 00:52:49,239 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 1: did I get here? How did I get here? But this, 1130 00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:53,919 Speaker 1: this being on the show and talking about these things 1131 00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:56,680 Speaker 1: with you, It's truly a once in a lifetime experience 1132 00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:58,719 Speaker 1: for me. So thank you for talking about this with me, 1133 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,560 Speaker 1: and thank you all for listening to this episode of Rivals. 1134 00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,600 Speaker 1: We will be back with more beefs and feuds and 1135 00:53:03,640 --> 00:53:14,640 Speaker 1: long simmering resentments next week. Rivals is a production of 1136 00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:17,239 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. The executive producers are Shawn ty Toone 1137 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 1: and Noel Brown. The supervising producers are Taylor Chicon and 1138 00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,800 Speaker 1: Tristan McNeil. The producer is Joel hat Stand. I'm Jordan's 1139 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: runt Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like what you heard, 1140 00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,560 Speaker 1: please subscribe and leave us a review. For more podcast 1141 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:31,200 Speaker 1: for My heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, 1142 00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,160 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.