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Speaker 1: Welcome to the show, fellow conspiracy realist. We are giving

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Speaker 1: you a classic episode, a conversation we had with a

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Speaker 1: longtime friend of the show, Aaron Manke, the creator of

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Speaker 1: Lore and Matt. You worked pretty closely with Aard in

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Speaker 1: the past, and I think we both really enjoyed this

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Speaker 1: exploration with it.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah. There are four seasons of the podcast Unobscured.

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Speaker 2: I am. I think I'm credited as EP on all

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Speaker 2: of those, but this first season, this conversation, we're talking

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Speaker 2: about the Salem witch Trials. For another friend of the show,

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Speaker 2: Alex Williams, and I traveled out to Boston and the

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Speaker 2: area out there, you know, Salem and the places that

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Speaker 2: were actually Salem, the towns that were actually Salem, and

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Speaker 2: we went to libraries and saw original documents, and Aaron

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Speaker 2: put all of this together in a show called Unobscured.

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Speaker 2: That is just it's really great. It's the most full

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Speaker 2: picture of the Salem Witch Trials that I had ever

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Speaker 2: imagined in my head when I listened to that show

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Speaker 2: and helped make it, and thankfully we got to speak

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Speaker 2: with Aaron about it for quite a while.

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Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 3: learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 1: Our compatriot Nole is off on adventures in the meantime.

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Speaker 1: They call me Ben when you're joined with our super

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Speaker 1: producer Paul Mission control deck, and most importantly, you are

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Speaker 1: here and that makes this stuff they don't want you

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Speaker 1: to know. Today we are exploring one of the strangest,

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Speaker 1: most infamous series of events in early American history genuine

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Speaker 1: real life which trials, and nowadays most people only know

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Speaker 1: of these events through wildly fanciful works of fiction, film, books, etc.

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Speaker 1: So how do we separate the fact from the fancy here?

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Speaker 1: How do we establish what really led to these trials,

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Speaker 1: what genuinely happened to the victims, and how these events

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Speaker 1: impacted our culture and history from that point onto the

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Speaker 1: modern day. This is admittedly a tall order, Matt, and luckily,

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Speaker 1: very luckily, we are not tackling it alone. We are

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Speaker 1: joined by the creator, producer, and host of the hit

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Speaker 1: podcast Lore, which has also been adapted into a book

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Speaker 1: series and a television series, and as well as the

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Speaker 1: creator of the brand new podcast, Unobscured, Ladies and Gentlemen.

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Speaker 1: Aaron Manky, Hey, gentlemen, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 2: Hey, is our pleasure to have you on this show. Erin,

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Speaker 2: And just a bit of full disclosure here, I work

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Speaker 2: with Aaron in creating the show Unobscured. Just lest you

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Speaker 2: think we're a fast one on you, We work together

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Speaker 2: on this, but the bulk of the work is most

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Speaker 2: certainly Aaron's. But we had it was just a fascinating

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Speaker 2: deep dive into the Salem Witch Trials, right, and Aaron

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Speaker 2: Ben hit on it immediately at the top of this show.

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Speaker 2: But it's something I want to jump right into. Just

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Speaker 2: this fact that many of us are introduced to the

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Speaker 2: Salem Witch Trials usually in at least in my case,

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Speaker 2: an academic setting. You take an early history class about

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Speaker 2: American history, then you know you kind of have an understanding.

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Speaker 2: But then all of that gets shaped by all of

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Speaker 2: this pop culture and all of these other references. So

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Speaker 2: how has our understanding of the real Witch Trials been

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Speaker 2: modified by this pop culture?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I think you're exactly right. You know,

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Speaker 4: there's a lot of different factors that come into play

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Speaker 4: to I guess hide the true story, and not always intentionally.

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Speaker 4: It's not like there's a dare I say it on

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Speaker 4: the show, But it's not like there's a conspiracy to

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Speaker 4: hide the the you know, the true acts and deeds

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Speaker 4: and all that went on. You know, the sale and

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Speaker 4: witch trials was a a you know, roughly thirteen or

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Speaker 4: fourteen month period of time that had a lot going on,

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Speaker 4: and so you think about maybe bumping into it in

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Speaker 4: a high school class on early American history, and you know,

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Speaker 4: it's one of, you know, a couple a dozen things

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Speaker 4: that you're going to talk about that semester, and so

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Speaker 4: by necessity you sort of have to brush over it

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Speaker 4: and just mentioned a few things, like it happened sixteen

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Speaker 4: ninety two. Nineteen people were hanged, one was crushed to

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Speaker 4: death by stones, and five died in jail. And that's

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Speaker 4: that's the story you hear, you know, and maybe somebody

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Speaker 4: throws in, well, you know, they believe that there were

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Speaker 4: witches and the church one of those dead, and you know,

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Speaker 4: we just we sort of sum it all up into

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Speaker 4: a couple of sentences. And especially in this day and

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Speaker 4: age of you know, small character count tweets and social

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Speaker 4: media posts, it's easy to try to summarize things up

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Speaker 4: like that. The other factory coming into this. So, like

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Speaker 4: you mentioned before, is pop culture, right, like films and

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Speaker 4: screens like like The Crucible and TV shows and even

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Speaker 4: you know, bad one hour documentaries. You can cover something

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Speaker 4: like Sale and Wich trials in one hour. So you

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Speaker 4: know that those things all just sort of work to

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Speaker 4: force us toward an easy sound bite answer, and when

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Speaker 4: you do that, you lose all of the nuance.

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Speaker 2: You know, something that a lot of people may not know.

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Speaker 2: It's something that I learned fairly recently. You actually physically

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Speaker 2: lived within a very close proximity to where the Salewich

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Speaker 2: trials occurred.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, can you tell us about that? Well, you know,

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Speaker 4: so you hear about the Sale and Witch trials, and

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Speaker 4: if you were to find the location where a lot

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Speaker 4: of the victims came from on a map today, it

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Speaker 4: would come with the name Danvers as the town and

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Speaker 4: not Salem, which is sort of confusing, right You kind

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Speaker 4: of expect it to be Salem Salem, which is a

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Speaker 4: little bit more toward the east. But back in the

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Speaker 4: late sixteen hundreds, Salem was like this territory, you know,

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Speaker 4: and you have the city, but then you have the

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Speaker 4: bread basket around it of all these different communities, places

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Speaker 4: that exist now today as their own independent communities like

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Speaker 4: Wenham and Danvers and Beverly and Andover and Topsfield and

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Speaker 4: all these places slowly were chiseled off of the Salem

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Speaker 4: land mass and became their own things. So what is

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Speaker 4: now today Danvers used to be Salem Village and Salem

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Speaker 4: proper today used to be Salem Town because that was

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Speaker 4: sort of the built up, wealthier town aspect of it all.

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Speaker 1: Ah See, this is going to be new information for

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Speaker 1: quite a few of our listeners here, you know, and

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Speaker 1: it's important, I would argue for us to carve these

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Speaker 1: distinctions out and clarify them because the last time that

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Speaker 1: we were in Boston we learned firsthand from some residents

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Speaker 1: about Salem's the current Salem's pretty successful tourism industry based

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Speaker 1: off of this tragedy. Is that a real thing? Is

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Speaker 1: it still in full swing?

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Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah? Yeah? And you know, and we talk about

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Speaker 4: Danvers being old Salem Village and Salem being old Salem

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Speaker 4: Town and that dichotomy between the two places. There's there's

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Speaker 4: a reason why their name is changed, and that's partly

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Speaker 4: to distance themselves from what happened most of the Salem

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Speaker 4: based because Okay, so there were a lot of victims

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Speaker 4: that came from other communities and over Topsfield, all over

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Speaker 4: the place, Gloucester, but a lot of the Salem victims

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Speaker 4: came from the Salem village area. So what is now

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Speaker 4: Danvers And a lot of the the legal aspects, especially

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Speaker 4: the Court of Oyer and Terminer, which was sort of

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Speaker 4: the the higher level jury plus judges system, and then

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Speaker 4: moving on to the Superior court, those things all happen

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Speaker 4: in Salem town. So you had victims coming from one

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Speaker 4: area and that's now Danvers, and that's wildly generalized. I'm

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Speaker 4: just roughly saying it. And then in Salem, basically all

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Speaker 4: the bad guys, right, all the people that sat in

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Speaker 4: the jury or on the court and judge people and

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Speaker 4: sentenced them to death. So you have these two towns,

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Speaker 4: you know, three hundred and twenty five years ago, we're

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Speaker 4: sort of sitting next to each other, and they've grown,

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Speaker 4: they've grown up, but they've also grown apart culturally, and

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Speaker 4: so Danver's changed its name and it sort of distances

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Speaker 4: itself from the idea that the witch trials happened there

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Speaker 4: like you can find things. Rebecca Nurse is one of

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Speaker 4: the victims. She was a seventy five seventy six year

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Speaker 4: old woman who her crime was that she was too

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Speaker 4: generous with one of her neighbors. Back then, Puritans were

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Speaker 4: incredibly prejudiced against any other faiths, and so even Quakers,

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Speaker 4: which we never think of Quakers as being like antagonists

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Speaker 4: or bad people, but in the Puritan mind, they just

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Speaker 4: they weren't Puritans, and so Quakers were bad. And she

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Speaker 4: took in a Quaker orphan and that sort of sealed

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Speaker 4: her fate. Among other things. She had some rumors spread

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Speaker 4: about her and whatnot. Anyway, her house is still there.

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Speaker 4: It's a homestead, it's a museum. You can tour. Three

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Speaker 4: hundred and twenty five years later, it's still there, and

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Speaker 4: it's set up more sensitively and as a as a

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Speaker 4: museum as opposed to the Salem Witch Museum, which is

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Speaker 4: you know, red lights and dark shadows and witches and

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Speaker 4: cauldrons and things like that. And and so there's this

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Speaker 4: there's this dichotomy of Salem sort of dodging the issue

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Speaker 4: and Danvers dodging the issue, and Salem Town sort of

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Speaker 4: rolling right into it. I mean, there's a there's a

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Speaker 4: statue of Samantha from the the old TV show Bewitched

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Speaker 4: in the middle of town because she was a witch,

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Speaker 4: and let's put a statue out for her. You know,

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Speaker 4: Oh wow, makes sense?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, Well you've hit on something very

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Speaker 2: important here, and that's that dichotomy between these two towns.

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Speaker 2: But there's also a dichotomy between what our understanding of

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Speaker 2: what a witch is now. That is again, have it's

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Speaker 2: been morphed and changed over all of these years? What

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Speaker 2: was a which in sixteen ninety two New England.

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Speaker 4: It's such a tricky question. Which was I mean, you know,

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Speaker 4: in the religious sense. To the Puritans, it was somebody

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Speaker 4: who was working for the devil to tear down the

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Speaker 4: Puritan mission of this utopian society in the New World.

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Speaker 4: The reason why the Puritans came over is because the

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Speaker 4: Anglican Church, which was kind of a Protestant branch off

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Speaker 4: of the Catholic Church, the Church of England, that just

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Speaker 4: wasn't pure enough. It hadn't tossed off enough of the

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Speaker 4: Catholic trappings to be acceptable, and the Puritans wanted it

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Speaker 4: to be more pure. Thus the name and among all

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Speaker 4: of the colonies that were set up in the sixteen

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Speaker 4: hundreds that were all sort of like either endeavors of

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Speaker 4: the crown or business ventures. This was a business venture

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Speaker 4: that was run purely by the Puritans, and they all

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Speaker 4: the people that ran it essentially came over with it

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Speaker 4: and set up shop here. So it wasn't being run

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Speaker 4: from afar by the owners. It was being run here.

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Speaker 4: They had a charter from the king and you had

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Speaker 4: to get that. But they were they were this isolated

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Speaker 4: religious community, and anybody who threatened their mission was potentially

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Speaker 4: a witch. They were an agent of the devil. And

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Speaker 4: there were all these cool little trappings that came with

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Speaker 4: it that we still have pieces of in our culture today.

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Speaker 4: You know, you think about how many times you've seen

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Speaker 4: a witch on TV with a black cat, right, like

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Speaker 4: that's just the it's the partner in crime they always have.

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Speaker 4: And that comes back to the idea of a familiar,

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Speaker 4: you know, an animal that is a evil spirit in

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Speaker 4: the form of an animal that follows the witch around,

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Speaker 4: and that's just almost a European and American constant that

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Speaker 4: you have familiars. There are things like, well, we can

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Speaker 4: tell you're a witch if you have witch marks on you,

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Speaker 4: which is supposed to be like this little devil's teat

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Speaker 4: this this place where the demons will will suckle from

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Speaker 4: the witch and they look like freckles or moles or

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Speaker 4: skin tags, and of course they found them on people

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Speaker 4: because everybody has those things. So you know, it was

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Speaker 4: this really tricky thing where, yeah, they were enemies of

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Speaker 4: the Puritan faith, but after that it was just kind

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Speaker 4: of hard to nail it down, which created problems for them.

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Speaker 1: You know, yeah, we can I can totally understand this

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Speaker 1: because in the case of I believe it was Sarah Osborne, right,

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Speaker 1: one of the first people accused of witchcraft.

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Speaker 4: In her case, I.

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Speaker 1: Think one of the primary causes for persecution or prosecution

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Speaker 1: was that she was suspected of living with her second

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Speaker 1: husband before they got officially married.

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Speaker 4: And there was a little bit of that going on. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: she had a child with him, She had a child

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Speaker 4: from a previous marriage, she had a child with I

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Speaker 4: think before she married her second husband. And I'm not

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Speaker 4: sure if I'm getting my people right or not. Bish

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Speaker 4: I think she might have been the one who, like

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Speaker 4: one of the kids lived at home and one of

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Speaker 4: them lived in sort of a boarding house situation. But yeah,

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Speaker 4: Sarah Osburne wasn't she. I mean, she was also just outsider.

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Speaker 4: She wasn't respected, She didn't tow the line, she didn't

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Speaker 4: follow the rules, and people then as people now lash

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Speaker 4: out against the outsider, they become a scapegoat for our

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Speaker 4: fears and our anxieties.

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Speaker 2: And there's something here to be said. I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: articulate this correctly Erin, but the thin, somewhat non existent

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Speaker 2: line between religion and the law within the land and

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Speaker 2: it's almost the same thing in most respects. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to wrap my head around exactly what I'm trying

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Speaker 2: to ask you here, But I feel like that is

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Speaker 2: one of the major contributing factors, or at least that's

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Speaker 2: one of the things you think about nowadays when you're

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Speaker 2: imagining this time period. How did that come into play

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Speaker 2: with setting up these trials? Like were the Oyer and

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Speaker 2: Terminer trials specifically a law of the land kind of

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Speaker 2: thing or was it a religious law thing?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, that's a forty five minute podcast in

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Speaker 4: that answer right there, But like, let's just let's say

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Speaker 4: it this way. So they had a charter which was

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Speaker 4: sort of a permission certificate from the king to go

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Speaker 4: create this colony. The charter usually had some laws and

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Speaker 4: regulations that were in there, and for the most part

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Speaker 4: you were supposed to adhere to English law, kind of

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Speaker 4: defer to that. But because of the way the Puritan

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Speaker 4: colony of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts was set up, it

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Speaker 4: was just a little different. They had a little bit

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Speaker 4: more freedom and latitude, and they were able to build

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Speaker 4: their faith into the laws a lot more tightly. So

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Speaker 4: when the Salem witch trials happened, it happens in this

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Speaker 4: you know, doctor Emerson Baker's one of our historians, and

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Speaker 4: he calls his book the Storm of Witchcraft because it's

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Speaker 4: this perfect storm of ingredients. Among all these other things,

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Speaker 4: the fear of the wars with the Native Americans to

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Speaker 4: the north, the French who were allied with them, a

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Speaker 4: harsh winter, all these different factors coming together. You also

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Speaker 4: had the fact that the King kind of in a

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Speaker 4: power play, takes the charter away from people shortly before

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Speaker 4: the witch trials happened. So they're essentially government lists. They

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Speaker 4: don't have any they don't have anything, and there's this

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Speaker 4: promise of a new charter, but they haven't got it yet.

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Speaker 4: So they're literally there society that has lost all their laws,

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Speaker 4: and so they're leaning on the people like John Hawthorne,

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Speaker 4: who you know him and his father both worked with

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Speaker 4: the Charter and they knew the law. They're kind of

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Speaker 4: leaning on these people to help them. But you know,

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Speaker 4: their faith is permeating these things. They you know, they

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Speaker 4: have this fear of witches. And I mean even when

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Speaker 4: they sit down with a new charter and start to

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Speaker 4: list out, like, all right, we have to put together

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Speaker 4: a list of capital crimes, which they started doing in

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Speaker 4: sixteen ninety two. You know, witchcraft falls on the capital

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Speaker 4: crime list. You're not going to find that on the

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Speaker 4: books today because we have a very secular government, but

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Speaker 4: back then that border between church and state was a

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Speaker 4: lot more fuzzy, and so things like you know, being

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Speaker 4: a witch became this capital offense and it was executed,

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Speaker 4: executable by death with some exceptions. The deeper into the

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Speaker 4: trials you get and it just gets more complex. Things

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Speaker 4: like you know, at some point, if you used witchcraft

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Speaker 4: but you didn't kill anybody, you could be punished, but

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Speaker 4: you won't be executed and whatnot. But yeah, the faith

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Speaker 4: really did it permeated everything, really.

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Speaker 1: And it makes sense what you're saying given the context

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Speaker 1: of the time when people are I think you hit

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Speaker 1: a really powerful point here when you say that the

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Speaker 1: people found themselves governless right in a hostile environment in

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Speaker 1: terms of the ecosystem they were surrounded by, and if

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Speaker 1: we're being honest, this is in many ways a group

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Speaker 1: of what we would call religious extremists today. So people

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Speaker 1: in a vacuum of organizational structure would tend to fall

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Speaker 1: back on the number one organizational structure that they considered

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Speaker 1: their core set of values, which personally, and I don't

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Speaker 1: want to inject too much of my opinion here, is

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Speaker 1: terrifying because it kind of it sounds as if this

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Speaker 1: is something that occurs, you know, in the distant past.

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Speaker 1: But it's very important for us to remember that people

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Speaker 1: are still people. We're still the same cognitive machines. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: these sorts of things are not as implausible in the

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Speaker 1: modern day as they were. You know, they're not any

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Speaker 1: less plausible, I should say, than they were in the

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Speaker 1: sixteen hundreds.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, I mean one of the benefits of I mean,

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Speaker 4: think about how our government, you know, the original American

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Speaker 4: government was put together. You had representatives who were you know,

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Speaker 4: chosen by the people to go to a continental congress

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Speaker 4: and they lay down laws and they work together. They

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Speaker 4: worked with a lot of existing laws around Europe that

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Speaker 4: they knew of, you know, the magnet Carta was an

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Speaker 4: influence and things like that. But they were they were

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Speaker 4: a voice for the people as a collective putting things together,

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Speaker 4: and that made it a lot a lot more infallible.

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Speaker 4: You had people saying, well, that idea sounds good, but

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Speaker 4: here are three problems with it, and that's this is

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Speaker 4: how it could go wrong, and so they could adjust things.

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Speaker 4: When you move to a society that's smaller, I mean,

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Speaker 4: Salem Village had about five hundred people in it, five

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Speaker 4: five fifty. Salem Town I think had maybe two thousand

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Speaker 4: people in it. Now that's a smaller group of people,

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Speaker 4: with a smaller pool of leaders making up laws and

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Speaker 4: trying to find their way. They're going to make a

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Speaker 4: lot more mistakes, and they're going to bring a lot

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Speaker 4: more personal bias into things, which is why, I mean,

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Speaker 4: this is why dictatorships go wrong, and why emperors and

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Speaker 4: kings have so many problems unless they have some sort

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Speaker 4: of a parliamentary system around them to keep them in check,

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Speaker 4: because one person making choices is going to make a

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Speaker 4: lot more worse choices than that a group of people

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Speaker 4: collectively thinking being through with common sense. So this is,

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Speaker 4: you know, this is partly what plays out in Salem.

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Speaker 4: You have a bunch of people who they're just kind

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Speaker 4: of leaning on what they know and their personal opinions

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Speaker 4: and their fears and their hopes and all this stuff,

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Speaker 4: and we get a mess and will pause right there

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Speaker 4: for a quick word from our sponsor, and we're back.

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Speaker 4: This is a little bit biographical, But what were your

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Speaker 4: primary inspirations or motivations that set you on the path

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Speaker 4: to explore and clarify this story? You know, I mean

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Speaker 4: I've made the podcast called Lore for about three and

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Speaker 4: a half years now, and Law is essentially a dark

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Speaker 4: historical podcast. You know, I look for stories from history

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Speaker 4: that have a more unusual or or dark is just

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Speaker 4: the best word for it, a dark bent that you know,

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Speaker 4: that's the kind of stuff you're not going to learn

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Speaker 4: about in history class. You're not going to learn about

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Speaker 4: the drummer of Tedworth. You know, a house haunted by

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Speaker 4: a ghost that keeps making a drumming sound and possibly

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Speaker 4: a haunted drum and all these You're not going to

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Speaker 4: learn about these things in history class and and and

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Speaker 4: that's why I I do lore because I want people

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Speaker 4: to hear these great tales of things that happened and

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Speaker 4: people claim that they were true, and I want to

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Speaker 4: explore them. Most of the time, I'm fine finding topics

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Speaker 4: that I can do in a half an hour. That's

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Speaker 4: typically the format of the show, you know, about thirty

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Speaker 4: minutes long, throwing some ads and some credits and more good.

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Speaker 4: And that leaves out a few topics, you know. And

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Speaker 4: so from the very beginning, I thought, well, the Salem

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Speaker 4: witch Trials fits. You know that it has all of

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Speaker 4: these really great details. There's good context lessons in here,

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Speaker 4: like learning about how witchcraft worked in Europe and England,

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Speaker 4: all these great things, but you couldn't cover it in

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Speaker 4: an hour or a half an hour. Even so I

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Speaker 4: just kind of set it aside. And so for a

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Speaker 4: couple of years I had a folder on my hard

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Speaker 4: drive that said it said lower the Salem Project. And

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Speaker 4: I had this vision of maybe someday when I had

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Speaker 4: free time, ha ha ha. Because I just got busier

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Speaker 4: and busier as time went by, maybe someday I'll be

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Speaker 4: able to do like a little mini series on Salem.

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Speaker 4: And I didn't know if i'd give its own RSS

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Speaker 4: feed or if I would, you know, maybe make it

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Speaker 4: a paid only like you could go, you know, download

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Speaker 4: the thing, like an audiobook sort of thing, because I

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Speaker 4: didn't know what the material would would turn into. So

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Speaker 4: it wasn't until you know, about a year ago that

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Speaker 4: I started working with some of your folks over there

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Speaker 4: at host Stuff Works and realized that if we were

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Speaker 4: going to build a network of shows, one of those

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Speaker 4: could very well be a long form documentary series that

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Speaker 4: just takes time, you know, it gives these really big

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Speaker 4: stories the breathing room that they need and let it

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Speaker 4: go deep. And so that's that was the perfect home

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Speaker 4: for the Salem topic. And not only that, but living

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Speaker 4: in it and around it here in my area, it

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Speaker 4: just made sense. And it's you can't pass up a

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Speaker 4: topic like this.

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Speaker 2: So jumping back, let's jump back to sixteen ninety two Salem.

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Speaker 2: It's winter time. It's a freaking cold out there, and

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Speaker 2: there's no central heating, there's no electricity. The only way

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Speaker 2: to keep you and your family warm enough to not

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Speaker 2: die is to have firewood. And one thing that I

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Speaker 2: didn't understand going into this project was just how vital

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Speaker 2: firewood was as a commodity, as almost a currency in

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Speaker 2: a way. Can you talk to us about the importance

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Speaker 2: of firewood back then?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, picture that post apocalyptic movie that you love,

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Speaker 4: where you know there is no more US currency, the

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Speaker 4: global market's gone, and you need to go buy food

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Speaker 4: from some trader and it's either a precious metal or

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Speaker 4: it's a bullet. You know, things like that that you're

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Speaker 4: trying to find ways, like what are valuable commodities to

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Speaker 4: trade for something, and firewood was certainly I wouldn't say

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Speaker 4: it was worth its weight in gold, but it was

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Speaker 4: highly important. So to illustrate this, you know, the minister

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Speaker 4: in Salem village, where a lot of the victims came from,

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Speaker 4: was this guy named Samuel Parris who came from I mean,

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Speaker 4: his family was English. Obviously, his uncle had purchased or

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Speaker 4: somehow acquired a plantation on the island of Barbados, and

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Speaker 4: then he was really bad at running the business, and

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Speaker 4: so he brought his brother in, which was Samuel's dad,

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Speaker 4: and his brother saved it. You know, his uncle eventually

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Speaker 4: dies and so Sam's dad inherits the place and runs

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Speaker 4: it well, but some natural disasters happened. There's like this

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Speaker 4: massive hurricane and there's a drought, and I think some

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Speaker 4: sickness and smallpox maybe, And eventually Samuel Parris has found

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Speaker 4: himself running the place and he doesn't want to anymore.

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Speaker 4: He realizes it's going to kill him, so he sells

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Speaker 4: it and heads north. He wanted to go to Harvard,

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Speaker 4: and while his dad was still alive, he was attending Harvard,

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Speaker 4: which is really really old school from the sixteen hundreds

433
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 4: outside of Boston. And so when he finally sold the

434
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 4: place off for good, he moved back to Boston, maybe

435
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,879
Speaker 4: thinking that he would finish school because he had stopped

436
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,159
Speaker 4: a few classes, shy, maybe just looking for work some

437
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 4: of his money to set up a business there. Finally,

438
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 4: he ends up not doing well at business and taking

439
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 4: the position in Salem Village as their new minister. The

440
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,920
Speaker 4: negotiation process for his contract took him over a year

441
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 4: because he was this super litigious, like we have to

442
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 4: get all the tea's crossed and the ice dotted, and

443
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 4: want to be taken care of. I think he had

444
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 4: some high aspirations, but one of the things that he

445
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:27,119
Speaker 4: was super picky about was firewood that he needed his

446
00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,760
Speaker 4: firewood delivered. And even after becoming the minister there, it

447
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:34,440
Speaker 4: was a problem constantly with you know, farmers in the area.

448
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,199
Speaker 4: It was like their turn that week to bring him

449
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 4: a load of firewood, and they just they wouldn't do it.

450
00:24:38,920 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 4: He was hard to like, it was hard to get

451
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 4: along with, and some of them just sort of held

452
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 4: it back as a leverage over him. And there's these

453
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 4: stories of him writing in his study upstairs in the

454
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 4: middle of winter, dipping his quill in the inkwell to

455
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,560
Speaker 4: scratch on the book, and the ink in the inkwell

456
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,640
Speaker 4: being frozen because it's so cold in the house, and

457
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,639
Speaker 4: wood just becomes this thorn in his side for the

458
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 4: entire time.

459
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:06,840
Speaker 2: Just chop your own firewood, man.

460
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 4: You know, as a minister, you're giving the parsonage to

461
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 4: live in. There's no land with it. All the land

462
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,480
Speaker 4: of Budding you is fenced off and it belongs to

463
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 4: somebody else, and they're going to cut down their trees

464
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 4: and use it. And he was sort of stuck. But yeah,

465
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 4: I mean I'd get a hatchet and go out in

466
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 4: the middle of the night and just you know, start

467
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 4: clearing branches off of trees and bringing them home. Which,

468
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 4: so this is one thing that I think is going

469
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 4: to be fascinating to a lot of our fellow listeners

470
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 4: when they are as they explore unobscured. Is the process

471
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 4: through which you discover these stories? Could you tell us

472
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 4: a little bit more about the primary written records that

473
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 4: you found, or how complete or incomplete they were, and

474
00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 4: how you took this this vast amount of uncollected resources,

475
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 4: like how did you arrange them?

476
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: And what was the process? Like was it all uphill?

477
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: Were there surprising fines? Were there times where you know,

478
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: it was frustrating because again, the great game of telephone

479
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 1: that is human history got in the way. I think

480
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 1: we're all very curious to learn about that.

481
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 4: Well, one thing to keep in mind is that toward

482
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 4: the end of the which trial period of sixteen ninety two,

483
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 4: it basically starts in January sixteen ninety two, it runs

484
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,879
Speaker 4: through itun till about May of sixteen ninety three, and

485
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 4: toward the end of that, the governor of Massachusetts is

486
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 4: this guy named Sir William Phipps, and he realizes that

487
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 4: the public perception of what's going on in the trials

488
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 4: is bad. In fact, at some point, the judges involved

489
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 4: in the trial hire a minister from a prominent minister family.

490
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 4: Their last name was Mather. Increase was the father. Cotton

491
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 4: was the son Cotton Mather. That's right, Cotton and Cotton

492
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: was hired to basically write a pr piece. It was

493
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,919
Speaker 4: a book in defense of the sale Witch trials and

494
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 4: write about that time, Governor Phipps decides it will be

495
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 4: very bad if anybody else prints things about this. We

496
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 4: want this to be the only thing out there. And

497
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 4: so the governor outlaws the press. They can't talk or

498
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 4: write about the sale Witch trials anymore. So you have

499
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 4: that which limits the amount of stuff that's written about

500
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,399
Speaker 4: it in sixteen ninety two, sixteen ninety three. Then you

501
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 4: have people with you know, let's just pick a judge

502
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 4: out of you know, like Nathaniel Saltonstall or somebody like that,

503
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 4: or Samuel Sewell. There are family documents that would have existed.

504
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 4: Personal journals was a big thing for a lot of

505
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:53,160
Speaker 4: these judges. They wrote in their journals every night, and

506
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 4: a lot of them just go missing. Letters between judges

507
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 4: who served on the trial and family members kind of

508
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 4: take a break for about a year there where they

509
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 4: just they've vanished. It's not like they stopped writing. Somebody's

510
00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 4: gone in and they've taken these sheaves of paper out

511
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 4: and they've destroyed them in some way. Samuel Paris himself,

512
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 4: the Minister for you know, thirteen fourteen, fifteen months, kept

513
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,639
Speaker 4: notebooks of what was going on, and one page was

514
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 4: pulled out of a notebook at some point and taken

515
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 4: as evidence for something. We don't know how or why.

516
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 4: But all the rest of the notebooks have vanished. It's

517
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 4: not that they've been misplaced or you know, that the

518
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 4: family just won't give them up. They just don't exist anymore.

519
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:38,200
Speaker 4: There's this almost global cover up of the documentation of

520
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 4: what happened. Once the government gets on its feet in

521
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,680
Speaker 4: late sixteen ninety two and the Oier Interminer is shut

522
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 4: down and it becomes the Superior Court, essentially the state

523
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:52,480
Speaker 4: supreme Court, the documents don't go away anymore. Those become

524
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 4: really official, and we still have all those, but all

525
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 4: the court documents from the Oyer and Terminer, the big trial,

526
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 4: all through the summer of sixteen ninety two, it's just gone.

527
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 4: So there's not a lot to look at there is stuff.

528
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 4: I'm gonna plug the website just because it's got great

529
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,240
Speaker 4: resources on it. But if you go to History Unobscured

530
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 4: dot com, there's a resources page and I can't remember

531
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 4: if it's on there if I need to put it

532
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 4: on there, but there's a link to is that the

533
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 4: University of Virginia that has a like a digital scanned

534
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,360
Speaker 4: in library of every document relating to it. So things

535
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 4: like the warrant that was issued for Reverend George Burrows.

536
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:31,520
Speaker 4: Like you can see the warrant right there, written out

537
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,680
Speaker 4: in handwriting, long form. It's got dates on and everything.

538
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 4: It's beautiful. It's tragic. So there are things that we

539
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 4: have and we still find things. You know, every year,

540
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 4: somebody's bumping into a new document, some family opens up

541
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,440
Speaker 4: a book in their library and finds a warrant or

542
00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 4: a letter that was tucked away, like it happens. But

543
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 4: a lot of it's just sort of disappeared.

544
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: You know. I think this right here is the stuff

545
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 2: they don't want you to know about the Salem Witch Trials.

546
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 2: Can you imagine now, in this in modern history, if

547
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: someone attempted to do this, just if it was a

548
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 2: a year long process, somewhere and someone said, oh, nope,

549
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 2: we're going to strike this whole thing from the record. Nope,

550
00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: everybody put away your social media. Nope, we're going to

551
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 2: delete everybody's Facebook. It's over. This didn't happen. Here's the

552
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: official account in this one ton or this one blog.

553
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 2: All right, carry on. That's insane to me that that

554
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 2: could even happen. But you know, we did. Where did

555
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,160
Speaker 2: we go? We went to the Danvers Archival, the Danvers

556
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 2: Archival Center.

557
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the Peabody Essex Library, a Peabody Institute library

558
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 4: that's in Danvers. Peboty's another town, but the Danvers Library

559
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 4: is actually called the Peabody Institute Library. It's confusing, but

560
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 4: they have an archive in the basement. They have an archivist.

561
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 4: One of our historians, Richard Trask, is a you know,

562
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 4: decades long experienced historian. He's also descended from a number

563
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,680
Speaker 4: of the victims from the witch trials, and he lives

564
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 4: within blocks of where it all happened, in a period home.

565
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 4: He's a cool guy. I like Richard a lot. And

566
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 4: he sits as the archivist down there in the bowels

567
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 4: of the library and he manages all these amazing things

568
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 4: the church changed locations. They moved across the street. A

569
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 4: few years after it was all over, they got a

570
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 4: new minister, Reverend Green, maybe in the sixteen ninety eight

571
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,959
Speaker 4: ninety nine range or so. He moved the building across

572
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 4: the street. And then eventually that was, you know, tore

573
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:35,680
Speaker 4: down and they built a bigger building because it's a church,

574
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 4: and they grow and populations grow. In the nineteen seventies,

575
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:42,920
Speaker 4: I think there was a fire at the church and

576
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 4: Richard Drask went with the fire department and was able

577
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 4: to get in and save some things. He saved the

578
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 4: original communion where you know, like the chalice, the bowl,

579
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 4: those things they're made out of pewter. But they were

580
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 4: in a box right by the door, and on purpose,

581
00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:59,719
Speaker 4: like he told them to keep them by the door.

582
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 4: And there was a fire, and then two books were saved.

583
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 4: One is think of them both as like ship's logs,

584
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 4: you know, you think like Picard talking to the computer

585
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 4: in his ready room, you know, ship's log date whatever.

586
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 4: So there was there was a log for the church itself,

587
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 4: and a lot of people wrote in it, whoever were

588
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 4: officers and important people would write in there, like you know,

589
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 4: we excommunicated you know Martha Corey on this date, or

590
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 4: we brought in this member this date. It's sort of

591
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 4: a happenings of the church. That book from sixteen ninety

592
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 4: two was saved as well as the Minister's Book, which

593
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 4: is sort of a ship's log for the minister, and

594
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: that has Samuel Parris's writing in it, detailing things that

595
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 4: are going on, writing about the events, and when he

596
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 4: left and Reverend Green came in, that book was handed

597
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 4: off to Reverend Green and then he takes over writing

598
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 4: in it, and it's almost like a diary for whoever

599
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 4: holds the position of minister.

600
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: So cool.

601
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, and to get to see them at hold them

602
00:32:57,600 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 4: and look at them, it's just they're amazing.

603
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 2: And we'll continue to explore this in just a moment

604
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 2: after a quick word from our sponsor, and we're back.

605
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 1: One of the crucial things about reading these primary sources,

606
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 1: finding these contemporary or near contemporary accounts, is that because

607
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: they are so much closer to the time in which

608
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: these actual events occurred, they do not suffer from some

609
00:33:33,880 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: of the frankly widespread misconceptions that we have in the

610
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: modern day, not just in the world of Hollywood, but

611
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 1: in the cultural zeitgeist, even in academic settings.

612
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: So what.

613
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: If you could tell us here and what were some

614
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 1: of the misconceptions that you found in the course of

615
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,360
Speaker 1: your work on Unobscured.

616
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:00,480
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I have this belief that people like

617
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:04,720
Speaker 4: to sum things up into a sentence. You know, we

618
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 4: like to say, oh, I understand that, you know it

619
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 4: was this, it was simple, right, Like to be able

620
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 4: to declare something as simple means that we've grasped it

621
00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 4: and were in control of it. And you can't do

622
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 4: that with the Salem witch trials. It wasn't simple. It

623
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,240
Speaker 4: was highly complex. So one of the most common questions

624
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 4: that I get, whether it's social media or in person,

625
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 4: regarding the Salem witch trials is well, why did it happen?

626
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:30,719
Speaker 4: You know? And I think that that's our inclination. It's

627
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 4: a noble question, it's good, But it's people saying, give

628
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 4: me that one sentence that explains why. What's the one answer?

629
00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:39,360
Speaker 4: And there isn't There isn't a one answer. Again, I

630
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,760
Speaker 4: harken back to what doctor Baker wrote for his book

631
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 4: The Storm of Witchcraft. It's got this great introduction by

632
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,240
Speaker 4: somebody else that talks about how it's the perfect storm.

633
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 4: Of all these elements that come together before I go

634
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 4: on to what maybe they were misconceptions. You know, the

635
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 4: big one that I always get is, oh, it was

636
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,799
Speaker 4: just rotten bread, right, It was that ergot poison stuff, right,

637
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 4: I thought. We started doing the show, hopefully you have learned. Yes,

638
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 4: But you know, ergot is this fungus that grows on grains.

639
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 4: We hear about it as rye, and people make bread

640
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 4: out of rye, among other things. He makes a good

641
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 4: bourbon on a rye. But this, this fungus can cause hallucinations.

642
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 4: And the idea was put forward in the mid seventies

643
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 4: that hey, what if these people were having hallucinations and

644
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 4: that explains why they were behaving so bad. They can

645
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 4: have convulsions too, and you know, some of the afflicted

646
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 4: girls as we call them, the people who were showing

647
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 4: symptoms of being attacked by the witches, they had convulsions

648
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:46,080
Speaker 4: and fits. They would fall on the floor and thrash around. So,

649
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 4: you know, hey, sounds like Ergo explains this. And the

650
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 4: very next month after that was published in a journal,

651
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 4: the same journal published a debunking of it. You know,

652
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 4: two more scientists came on board and said, no, look,

653
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 4: it can't be er goot point and here's why. Or

654
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 4: got poisoning reacts to you one of two ways, depending

655
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 4: on how you eat. If you are deficient in vitamin A,

656
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 4: you will probably have hallucinations and convulsions. They call it

657
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:22,479
Speaker 4: convulsing or got poisoning something like that. But that's only

658
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 4: one of the ways the symptoms can present themselves. The

659
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 4: other way would be gangreen. And I get that those

660
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 4: are wildly disparate responses for something in your body. You know,

661
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 4: you can either have convulsions and hallucinations or you can

662
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 4: have gangreen, you know, like pick and I would certainly

663
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 4: grab the convulsions myself and skip the gangreen. But you

664
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 4: have to be deficient in vitamin A to have the convulsions,

665
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 4: and vitamin A comes from things like seafood. And Salem

666
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 4: is a coastal town, a ports city, and most of

667
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 4: the victims, the afflicted girls who have these symptoms are wealthy,

668
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 4: and they could have afforded to have good food and

669
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,879
Speaker 4: would have been eating food from the sea. They would

670
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 4: not have been deficient to invite them in a so

671
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 4: because nobody ever gets reported as having gangreen, we can

672
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 4: ride away right off or got poisoning. I sometimes hear people, Yeah.

673
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 4: I mean it's kind of like a oh you pop

674
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 4: my bubble, why'd you do that? But we want there

675
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 4: to be the magic pill, right, We want to say, oh,

676
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 4: it was the one thing. And if we could go

677
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 4: back in time in a time machine and like in

678
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 4: one day, fix everything and make it not happen, we'll

679
00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:30,560
Speaker 4: just take away their grain because it's got focus on

680
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 4: it right. Well, it wouldn't work. It's more complex than that,

681
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:39,200
Speaker 4: you know. And you have a lot of people suffering

682
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 4: from what was essentially post traumatic stress disorder, refugees coming

683
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 4: from the middle of Maine down the coast back to

684
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:49,759
Speaker 4: New England, back to Salem where they had come from

685
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,959
Speaker 4: years before, because they kept trying to settle the coast

686
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 4: of Maine. But up there you had the Wabanaki and

687
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,440
Speaker 4: the Algonquin, and you had the French who were allied

688
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 4: with them, and they were constantly hammering back down to

689
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 4: the south. And these refugees, like they'd go up and

690
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 4: they'd settle, and they'd lived for a couple of years,

691
00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 4: and then they'd get raided and attacked and they would

692
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 4: flee back south, having lost everything they ever took with

693
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 4: them and it was horrible. It was it was warping.

694
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 4: Some of them watched their parents die, some of them

695
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 4: lost children. And so they come back to Salem and

696
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: they tell their stories, and you know, they passed this

697
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,760
Speaker 4: trauma on to the people there. Everything outside their borders

698
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 4: was darkness and evil and danger and they were afraid.

699
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,839
Speaker 4: And of course we mentioned the lack of the charter.

700
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,839
Speaker 4: They didn't have a government at the time. It was very,

701
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,879
Speaker 4: very tricky. One of the things the government was doing

702
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 4: is I think it was with when Governor Andros took

703
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 4: over before Phipps, Like they started to re tax property

704
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:51,600
Speaker 4: that had already been taxed and so you had paid

705
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 4: your tax and you had your profit leftover and now

706
00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:55,640
Speaker 4: you're going to get taxed again. So financially they were

707
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 4: getting hammered. They had an incompetent leader who didn't understand

708
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 4: how to goned because he had never done it before.

709
00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:06,839
Speaker 4: Governor Phipps. All these all these pieces helped to kind

710
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:09,400
Speaker 4: of mix in the bawl and be this perfect storm

711
00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 4: that that in that window of time, that's that's when

712
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 4: it could have happened, and it did.

713
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:19,320
Speaker 1: Well well said well put this also this this also

714
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: reminds me of a work by the author Carol Carlson,

715
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: The Devil in the Shape of a Woman, that I

716
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: wanted to wanted to ask you about, because in Carlson's examination, uh,

717
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:38,200
Speaker 1: what what this author is looking at is more of

718
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 1: a an emphasis on how certain women, primarily women, were

719
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 1: chosen to be accused of witchcraft, and Carlson argues that

720
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: there is a a violation of social hierarchy that occurs

721
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 1: in some case. This is I think one of the

722
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:06,920
Speaker 1: specific quotes is that the accusers and the accused were

723
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,160
Speaker 1: in a way in a negotiation about the legitimacy of

724
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: female discontent, resentment, and anger, because it's not too far

725
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: of an assumption to say this was probably a severely

726
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: patriarchal society.

727
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:22,759
Speaker 4: Is that correct? Oh? Absolutely, yeah. You know. One of

728
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 4: the historians that we spoke to, we spoke to six,

729
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 4: did great interviews with them. One of them is doctor

730
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 4: Jane Kamenski. She's a professor of history at Harvard, which

731
00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 4: is a school I think some people have heard of,

732
00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 4: but she's also the director of the library there, Schlushinger Library,

733
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,720
Speaker 4: which is essentially a library devoted to women's studies through history.

734
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 4: So we wanted. We wanted a perspective, a historical perspective

735
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,960
Speaker 4: on what sort of a voice did women have in

736
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:52,480
Speaker 4: that age, what was their place in society, what was

737
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 4: seen as wrong, what was seen as good? You know,

738
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 4: things like women in sixteen ninety two would have been

739
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:01,240
Speaker 4: able to read because they needed to read the scripture

740
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 4: to their family, but they wouldn't necessarily have been able

741
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 4: to write. So, you know, years later, when Reverend Green

742
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 4: takes over the one of the afflicted girls, one of

743
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:13,360
Speaker 4: the girls who accused people and got them killed, wanted

744
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 4: to join the church. And her confession is in that

745
00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 4: churches book that I talked about that saved from the fire,

746
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 4: but it's in the reverence handwriting, and then she scrawls

747
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 4: her signature underneath it because she couldn't write. She could read,

748
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 4: but she couldn't write, And that was pretty common for

749
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 4: women back then. It was, you know, partly out of this,

750
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 4: you know, what was necessary for them, what wasn't necessary.

751
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 4: There's a little bit of control in there too. If

752
00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:37,799
Speaker 4: they can't read or if they can't write, then they

753
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 4: can't you know, get involved in government and things like that.

754
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 4: And so there was a patriarchal you know, push down

755
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 4: on that as well. It is really bizarre what happens

756
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 4: in the Salem witch trials because in effect, you have

757
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 4: not only women, but you have young women, girls twelve, thirteen,

758
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,560
Speaker 4: fourteen years old, who begin to guide the process of

759
00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 4: the court like their word is taken as law. And

760
00:42:00,760 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 4: these judges, these educated men, a lot of them had

761
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 4: gone to Harvard Divinity School, like they were either just

762
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 4: shy of being ministers themselves or could very well go

763
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 4: out and get a job as a minister, who were

764
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 4: some of the most educated people of the day. They

765
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 4: were doing basically doing their bidding, you know, And so

766
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 4: these roles are reversed. There's the shift there, and you

767
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 4: have to wonder, like you said, in a time when

768
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,879
Speaker 4: women are told to shut up and be quiet, sit down,

769
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 4: and do what you're told, that they have this opportunity

770
00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 4: all of a sudden, they notice an opening right that

771
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 4: they're being listened to and things are being done based

772
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 4: on their stories. And you have to think at least

773
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 4: some of them sort of leaned into that that I

774
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 4: have freedom right now, and I'm going to use this

775
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 4: freedom right now. And you know, I haven't seen any

776
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 4: study that looks at the list of victims who are

777
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 4: accused by these people. But you know, I wonder how

778
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 4: many of them were sort of like pro traditional women,

779
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,439
Speaker 4: sort of women like you know, Rebecca Nurse was seventy six,

780
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 4: and maybe she was one of those people that tow

781
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 4: the line and say, look, I'm a good, quiet Christian woman,

782
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,799
Speaker 4: I'm not going to speak up. I have to wonder

783
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 4: if there's a little bit of a social battle going

784
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 4: on there. You know, we know that twenty years before

785
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 4: the Saling witch Trials, there was an event in Grotten.

786
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:21,960
Speaker 4: One of the ministers who pops up in the witch

787
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 4: trials is this guy named Samuel Willard. I think twenty

788
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 4: years before he was in Groton, and he had a

789
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 4: household servant who was having fits and seizures and was

790
00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 4: speaking about the devil and the book like it's all

791
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 4: these elements that come right from the Sailing Witch Trials,

792
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:42,400
Speaker 4: but it was twenty years before, and I see a

793
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 4: lot of the servant speaking out and having a voice

794
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 4: for you know, a few months. And that's a pretty

795
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 4: easy way to view these things. I don't know if

796
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 4: I'm reading into it, if I'm applying my own perceptions

797
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 4: onto it, but they're certainly speaking out.

798
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: You know, another person we interviewed, Mary Beth Norton, who's

799
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,799
Speaker 2: an author as well as a professor. She makes a

800
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 2: great point about that consolidation of power that you were

801
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,760
Speaker 2: talking about erin where the same men who are running

802
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 2: the church are also the judge, jury, and executioner essentially,

803
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: so like all four points essentially are covered by the

804
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: same old white men who are the best writers and

805
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: readers and learned men of the time. And it really

806
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 2: does bring home that idea of these young women fighting

807
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: back in any way they possibly could to be seen

808
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:37,919
Speaker 2: and to be heard and to be known.

809
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,000
Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, I mean, I think the way she describes

810
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 4: it as like, let's pretend today that the presidents at

811
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 4: his cabinet, Secretary of Interior, Secretary of State, all these

812
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 4: this very small window of people. They also all served

813
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 4: as the Supreme Court, and they served as the legislative branch,

814
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 4: and that was the government, and that's what it was

815
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 4: like in sixteen ninety two. I want to be careful

816
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 4: with leading people to believe that the afflicted girls were

817
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 4: a social movement, because there might have been part of that,

818
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 4: but again, it's not a neat and clean, black and

819
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 4: white thing. Some of the afflicted girls were literally refugees

820
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:19,919
Speaker 4: from Maine who had come down having watched their entire

821
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 4: families killed and were afraid for their life every single day.

822
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 4: There was a lot of PTSD in there. There were

823
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 4: some social things going on, some of the better off

824
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 4: families versus competitive families, you know. So it's this big mix.

825
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 4: But I think it would be wrong to say that

826
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 4: there isn't some aspect of this rebellion against the patriarchy

827
00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:42,880
Speaker 4: going in there. It's not the only thing, it's not

828
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 4: even the primary thing, but there's an element of that

829
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 4: in there for sure.

830
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 2: Well, Aaron, we were coming to the end here, what well?

831
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 2: And which, by the way, Unobscured season one about the

832
00:45:56,680 --> 00:45:59,919
Speaker 2: Salem witch trials is finishing. I believe when we're when

833
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: this episode is available, the last major episode will be out.

834
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 2: So you can go and listen to all twelve episodes

835
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:12,600
Speaker 2: right now of Unobscure. Yeah, there are there are gonna

836
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 2: be some other episodes that come out though, right.

837
00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the season is twelve episodes long, twelve episodes,

838
00:46:19,120 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 4: you know, the story from start to finish, which, by

839
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 4: the way, if like, if you want to get away

840
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,520
Speaker 4: from the political arguments in your household, grab your iPhone

841
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 4: and your headphones, and just go find a dark room

842
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 4: and sit and binge listen to Unobscured. It's a great

843
00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 4: way to do it. And uh, because at least there's

844
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:36,600
Speaker 4: some hope at the end of the tunnel on that one.

845
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 4: And so when we get back into the new year,

846
00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 4: we're gonna take those six interviews we did with the

847
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 4: six historians doctor Emerson Baker, doctor Richard Trask, doctor Jane Kaminski,

848
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 4: Mary Beth Norton, Marilyn k Roach, and Stacy Schiff. Hey,

849
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 4: I got them all, and we're gonna we're gonna publish

850
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,360
Speaker 4: them weekly, one at a time, all six of the

851
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 4: interviews polished up and put together nicely so that you know,

852
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:03,840
Speaker 4: because Unobscured is narrative storytelling. It's me telling a story

853
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 4: for forty five minutes, and then every now and then

854
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 4: you'll hear like doctor Baker jump in and talk for

855
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 4: fifteen seconds to get a point across for me. But

856
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 4: we never get all of his interview, and it's it's

857
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 4: a great interview. So this is our way of sharing

858
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 4: those big conversations with people. And you can just sit

859
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:21,680
Speaker 4: in front of the fire hose and drink and it's awesome.

860
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 4: I concur sounds like a plan.

861
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: So erin before we leave. What is the one big

862
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 2: lesson that you have learned from making this show that

863
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:33,720
Speaker 2: we should in turn learned.

864
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 4: That's wait, yeah, that's.

865
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 2: Right, teach us the secrets of the universe. Aaron, please hurry.

866
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 4: Point of order, Matt Frederick.

867
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,800
Speaker 1: Part of our exploration today was how it was about

868
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 1: how difficult.

869
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,959
Speaker 4: And misleading it is. I know, thanks absolute things.

870
00:47:51,040 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 2: I'm trying. I'm trying to get magic magic out of

871
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:53,839
Speaker 2: this thing.

872
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,799
Speaker 4: No, I hear you. No, Look I will say that

873
00:47:57,040 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 4: I'm ann echo something I heard somebody say earlier. It's

874
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 4: really really important to remember that these were people that

875
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:07,839
Speaker 4: we look back with three hundred and twenty six years

876
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 4: of distance and say crazy like they shouldn't have done that.

877
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 4: I would totally do things different if I was in

878
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 4: their shoes, and you know what, you probably wouldn't because

879
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 4: of the way it was built, the structure, the social,

880
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:26,080
Speaker 4: the religious, the government, the wars and the weather and

881
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,400
Speaker 4: all of those pieces. I think we would all do

882
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 4: the same thing. And I think it's important for us

883
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:33,479
Speaker 4: in any historical situation, but especially the same witch trials

884
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,040
Speaker 4: to look back at it and say, these are just people.

885
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 4: They have hopes and they have dreams, they have fears,

886
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,880
Speaker 4: they have insecurities, they have talents, they have desires to

887
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,879
Speaker 4: be on stage, they have desires to slip and hide

888
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 4: under the radar, whatever it is like, these are just

889
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,919
Speaker 4: normal people like us. And if we forget that, that's

890
00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:56,239
Speaker 4: when we start to misunderstand history. And that's one of

891
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 4: the biggest lessons that I can take away from this.

892
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: Oh man, that was so much more than I even expected. Okay,

893
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:05,239
Speaker 2: thank you Erin, You're very welcome, sir.

894
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, sincerely, thank you so much, and thank you listeners

895
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: for joining us today. As we said earlier, can you can,

896
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:19,520
Speaker 1: if need be escape holiday time with your family or

897
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:23,919
Speaker 1: just in interest of enjoying a fascinating deep dive into

898
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: a widely misunderstood period of American history. You can find

899
00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 1: Unobscured in its entirety now wherever you find your favorite

900
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: shows and Aaron mentioned earlier the website, which is chock

901
00:49:39,040 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: full of some excellent additional resources, including for our more

902
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:49,280
Speaker 1: visually driven audience members, maps and diagrams of the surrounding

903
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: area to really put you in the place.

904
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, as well as books if you want to continue

905
00:49:54,160 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: your reading and learning.

906
00:49:55,360 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: So once again that is unobscured season one. I'm not

907
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 1: going to try to finagle any juicy tidbits about season

908
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: two out just yet, so you'll have to take our

909
00:50:11,120 --> 00:50:14,479
Speaker 1: word to stay tuned, look forward. Let us know what

910
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: you think about Utam Steward. Let us know which historical

911
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 1: lessons you feel can be drawn from this series of

912
00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: events in sixteen ninety two.

913
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: Again, Aaron, any last words before we.

914
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 4: Leave, Have fun with the show, dig in, listen and

915
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 4: enjoy and learn something. And thanks for having me on.

916
00:50:35,080 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 2: Guys, thank you so much for being with us. All right,

917
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 2: glad to do it if you don't want it. And

918
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,799
Speaker 2: that's the end of this classic episode. If you have

919
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 2: any thoughts or questions about this episode, you can get

920
00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 2: into contact with us in a number of different ways.

921
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: One of the best is to give us a call.

922
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:55,960
Speaker 2: Our number is one eight three three std WYTK. If

923
00:50:56,000 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 2: you don't want to do that, you can send us

924
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: a good old fashioned email.

925
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 3: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

926
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,760
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

927
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,400
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

928
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.