WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Danyel Smith 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:09.719 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. How are 0:00:09.760 --> 0:00:10.560 you guys, Steve? 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:14.320 I realized in the last five episodes you hardly said 0:00:14.320 --> 0:00:14.640 a word. 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:24.599 What are you? Okay? Yes, there you go? All right? 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:27.160 Uh you're in a purple room now, all right? 0:00:27.240 --> 0:00:30.200 My fault still the after effects of the studio. 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:32.240 Yeah, yeah, man, I just you know, I feel like 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:34.880 I get y'all a little a little green light. 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:39.760 Uh, the core to day, little YouTube makeup artist vibe. 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.280 I got you, I got what's except we're getting today, sir. 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:51.159 Today we're getting how to do winged eyeliner, and. 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:51.720 I like you. 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.319 How's it going with you? Oh? It's going good. 0:00:54.360 --> 0:00:56.520 I'm on an eye list somewhere hoping my WiFi don't. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:00:57.360 Ship on y'all. 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.920 Nice on vacation. Good to hear case? 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:05.800 Yeah, okay, Now I can introduce to our our guest, 0:01:06.720 --> 0:01:13.000 our Guesterday is of course, she's an award winning author, novelist, journalist, 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:19.720 magazine editor from the Ya area, The Yay I don't know. 0:01:20.040 --> 0:01:21.440 I don't even know if people in the. 0:01:21.360 --> 0:01:24.320 Bay Area call it the Yay Area, but I'm going 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.240 on a limb and calling it the Ya Like Northia. 0:01:27.520 --> 0:01:28.039 No one calls it. 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:29.920 Yeah, no one calls it that. 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:36.039 Except for the roots when they're on stage. Will I 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:40.080 will say that I got to know and subsequently feared 0:01:40.319 --> 0:01:45.639 this woman Uh when she was the first black editor 0:01:45.920 --> 0:01:51.800 in chief at the much loved Vibe magazine starting in 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:56.240 nineteen ninety four. I believe you replaced Alan like correct 0:01:56.880 --> 0:01:57.200 I did? 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.440 In fact, yeah I did. 0:01:59.480 --> 0:01:59.760 In fact. 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:05.920 If ever, you guys wondered why is Amir obsessed with 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:09.680 journalists more than he's obsessed with his fellow peers in 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:14.200 the music business, I will honestly tell you it starts 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:19.040 with this woman because I only realize the power of 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:24.280 the pen when it came from our guest. Today, she's 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:28.360 released an awesome book, and if you're a fan of 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.480 the show, and if you're a fan of just inside 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.400 speak of a music genre that you don't love, but 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.840 things that you might not have known, I highly recommend 0:02:40.360 --> 0:02:44.200 you get Shine Bright, a very personal history of Black 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:50.320 women in pop where literally not only does she reveal 0:02:50.600 --> 0:02:57.960 her awesomely kind of adventurous journey and life with her 0:02:57.960 --> 0:03:01.280 family coming up from the Bay Area, Los Angeles and 0:03:01.760 --> 0:03:05.480 of course uh living all over and navigating through music, 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:10.080 but she even manages to uh break down and share 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:13.280 stories of of just the intricate stories that of artists 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.880 that you love but you really don't know about, like 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.959 from the Dixie Cups of the Charells to shit, I 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.320 didn't even know Leon Teine Price was related to war 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:26.600 Work and with you know, Sissy and Whitney Houston, and 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.880 you know, just drawing the parallels of how they you know, 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:34.040 those those four generations between Leon team Price and Sissy 0:03:34.080 --> 0:03:36.360 Houston and dr Work and Whitney Houston and what they've 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:40.680 done in breaking barriers for just basically progressing for it, 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:45.520 but not to mention, you know, Diana Ross, name it, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:49.680 glads night, Diane, Donna Summer Merlin McCoo. Even, ladies and gentlemen, 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:52.200 please welcome to Couestlim Supreme. 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:57.360 Daniel Smith, thank you, a how are you? Oh? 0:03:58.480 --> 0:04:01.760 I mean I'm doing good because I'm over here with y'all, 0:04:01.840 --> 0:04:04.640 so it feels it just feels really good and really special. 0:04:05.120 --> 0:04:07.840 Thank you, Thank you, thank you. Where are you just 0:04:07.920 --> 0:04:10.920 speaking to us right now? From? Where are you from? 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.400 My home in southern California, specifically in Venice, California. 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.040 Hey, aw, nice, Okay, I didn't know, I see, I 0:04:18.080 --> 0:04:21.279 didn't know if you were in East Coast or West Coaster. 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.240 I mean, I'm I feel pretty equally both. Over the 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:26.080 course of my life at this point, I mean, I 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:30.279 think I did twenty three years on the on the 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:35.600 East Coast between most of it in Manhattan, most of 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:37.680 it in Brooklyn, some of it in Manhattan, some of 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.560 it in Washington, d C. But I'm back home in 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.719 my in the in the great country of California. So 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:43.839 it's good to be here. 0:04:43.880 --> 0:04:45.320 Good to have you. Okay. 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:50.200 So the thing is, you're shigned Bright book. It's almost 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.960 like Jeopardy where your shine Bright Book? In my opinion, 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:59.080 it's almost like an episode of Quest of Supreme without 0:04:59.160 --> 0:05:03.400 us asking the ques questions, you know. So it's almost 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.159 like if I were to go, well, no, literally she 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:06.919 you know. 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:08.760 It's it's a good cheat sheet. 0:05:09.240 --> 0:05:14.239 Especially in the first chapter where you're breaking down your journey. 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:19.159 It's almost like, I feel like it's the service to 0:05:19.240 --> 0:05:21.800 even recap that. So I kind of want to take 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:25.440 a different route with this episode than I would normally 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.680 do if you were a recording artist and well, you know, one, 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:33.800 I want to just ask the obvious, why did you 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:39.960 feel the need to construct this book and tell these stories. 0:05:40.120 --> 0:05:42.840 Why did you feel the need to sort of construct 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.880 the story and the manner that you did, and why 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.120 was it so long overdue? 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:54.039 Well, let me answer the the second question first, Why 0:05:54.200 --> 0:05:58.880 was this so long overdue? It's a combination of on 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:05.120 my part timing combination, add to that a lot of 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.920 second guessing myself, add to that a little bit of fear, 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.680 and add to that I hadn't quite figured out the 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:18.279 best way to tell it. It just hadn't. I had 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.520 to get to that place. I had to get really strong, 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:26.360 I think, a way that I hadn't felt, probably, I 0:06:26.360 --> 0:06:29.240 don't know, in a half a decade by the time 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.920 I finished Shine Bright. So it's it's all my fault. 0:06:33.160 --> 0:06:36.200 It's not my editor's fault. It's not anybody I interviewed. 0:06:37.080 --> 0:06:39.640 It's not their fault. It's it's it's my fault, just 0:06:40.440 --> 0:06:47.640 being uncharacteristically slow and missing of deadlines. Which, oh now, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:49.200 let me tell you something. If my husband was here, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.520 he would say, it took me eight I feel like 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:56.160 I've been writing it since I was eight years old, 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.520 but I think technically it took me six years. 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.680 All right, You speaking of your husband loved Elliott Wilson 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:06.000 why in yeah. 0:07:06.480 --> 0:07:09.840 Why these seventeen years? Seventeen years? 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:12.240 That's awesome and hip hop? 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:12.880 That is it? 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:15.520 Right? Like straight up and down. 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:17.760 I don't know, I don't know, but yeah, so it's 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:19.840 it took me too long. I'm not gonna lie, but 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:22.440 you know it just the timing was right. It was 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:24.720 the reason why I wanted to do it is you know, 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.000 long story short, when Whitney Houston died in twenty twelve, 0:07:29.040 --> 0:07:31.440 which she shouldn't have, but when she did die in 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.120 twenty twelve, you know, people approached me and said, could 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:36.680 you just write a bio off her really quickly? And 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:38.560 you know, let's go heavy on the drugs, let's go 0:07:38.600 --> 0:07:41.200 heavy on the bad marriage. You know. 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.400 I was just like, i'll tell you that, yes, and 0:07:44.440 --> 0:07:46.680 a sentence and one sentence. 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:48.200 Yes, what oh my god? 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:53.280 Like what like drugs? Bobby, Like, let's go how fast 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:57.400 can you get it done? And I was like, I'll 0:07:57.440 --> 0:07:59.120 have it to you on the twelfth of never like, 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:03.320 I'm not doing that. So so I came back to 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:05.520 some folks with an idea about doing the history of 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.640 black women in pop I sold that and I was 0:08:08.680 --> 0:08:12.320 never finishing that, and then I left that publisher and 0:08:12.400 --> 0:08:15.440 I went back home so to speak to Chris Jackson. 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.640 In one World Chris Jackson published. I have two novels 0:08:18.680 --> 0:08:21.120 from the early two thousands, more like Wrestling in Bliss, 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:23.200 that Chris Jackson published, and so I wanted to go 0:08:23.240 --> 0:08:25.480 back home with him, one because he's a genius and 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.000 two because I trust him deeply. And he just said, 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:29.640 you know, eventually, he said, You're going to have to 0:08:29.640 --> 0:08:32.800 put yourself in the book. I'm eternally grateful to him 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.400 for saying that. And then I spoke to my sister, 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:38.400 who's so much a part of shine Bright, And my 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.280 sister was like, are you asking me if you could 0:08:41.320 --> 0:08:44.040 tell my story? She was basically like, b I tch, 0:08:44.360 --> 0:08:47.560 you should have been told it so and so then 0:08:47.600 --> 0:08:49.600 we were off to the races, you know. 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:54.920 At the top of the the introduction, you know, I 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:59.800 was sort of tongue in cheek when I said that. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:02.520 That I loved and feared you only because I. 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:06.840 I realized I mean for starters, you know, with the 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:09.800 source that with vibe and at least the first wave 0:09:09.880 --> 0:09:15.360 of late eighties early nineties journalism being sort of in 0:09:15.360 --> 0:09:17.880 a serious form and not just like and this is 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:19.960 not to take away from Cynthia Horner or black Beat 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.199 or Steve Iberry or those guys. But you know, there 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:29.240 really hasn't been black critical writing. And although I've seen 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:35.520 it with rock journalism, like I've never seen a takedown 0:09:35.640 --> 0:09:40.079 article or anything of that level from the black side 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:43.040 of things. And you know, you ran it very tight, 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:47.360 like your version of Vibe magazine, which I guess is 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:47.960 ninety four. 0:09:48.000 --> 0:09:49.960 When did you leave Vibe ninety eight? 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.920 I started as I started as music editor in ninety four. 0:09:54.000 --> 0:09:56.319 I was there in ninety six, went back to school 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.959 for a year to ninety seven, came back and got 0:09:59.000 --> 0:10:01.800 promoted to Vib to be the first black and first 0:10:01.800 --> 0:10:03.560 woman editor in chief of Vibe in ninety seven. I 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.320 left in ninety nine. Then I came came back in 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.880 six and was editor in chief of Vibe again six 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:13.120 O seven o eight, two years, two years. 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:16.640 Every time I would say that, you know, your era 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:22.040 was way different, I noticed immediately your era from say 0:10:22.280 --> 0:10:26.719 Allen Light's period. I guess the trench issue was what 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.000 ninety one I believe ninety. 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:32.520 Yeah, ninety two to ninety four. 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:35.839 And not to say that, you know, because I'm friends 0:10:35.840 --> 0:10:37.719 with Alan, like I'm not saying it was light in 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:42.120 the ass, but I definitely saw a noticeable difference between 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.440 both those issues. And that said, I don't know in 0:10:46.440 --> 0:10:49.199 my mind, and I think this is often. 0:10:49.360 --> 0:10:52.400 Of how the world will see black women. 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:55.840 As you know, we always use these words like strong, 0:10:57.040 --> 0:10:59.960 you will use fierce and all those sort of colloquially 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:05.800 describe them. And so I was a bit taken aback, 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:10.559 you know, at how vulnerable you got, especially in the 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:15.880 first chapter speaking of your imposter syndrome and you like, 0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:18.800 you know, because it was kind of like whoa like 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:22.000 you don't see a human side, Well, I'm a Journalists 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.880 often don't insert themselves or that sort of thing. 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:29.080 So I was really just I was I was pleasantly surprised. 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.920 Of how you weave your your life in music, like 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.360 I love those type of things. Whereas not that I'm 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:37.560 just learning a lesson of the artist, but I'm also 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:40.920 learning the effect that it had on you, because your 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:45.120 writing career also had an effect on artists as well. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:49.560 I learned a lot from Alan. Alan first gave me 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:55.000 my first album review when he was editing the review 0:11:55.080 --> 0:12:01.040 section at Rolling Soon as my first Rolling song in Vogue. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.680 The second Yes give It Stars, Yeah, I did. 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:06.400 I did it. 0:12:06.520 --> 0:12:08.920 I didn't come on it. I was. I was a 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.640 big homer at that time. And if I'm not still 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:14.679 just to be home. Come on, man, you know they 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:17.079 were gonna call me to do in Vogue weird. 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:20.080 Okay, so two stars, I don't know. 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:21.480 Don't listen. Don't listen to me. 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:23.920 Don't know. I'm gonna tell you some Danielle, you can't. 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.840 You can't debate me on this when I tell you, 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:32.160 like in the order of me, I can't, like Fante well, 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.760 study MC, study production whatever. I don't know, Like I 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:42.600 study record reviews, I study journalists, like I study the 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:44.840 people that determine whether or not. 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.040 Now I'm it's gonna have shelf life or not. I 0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:47.640 very much. 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:47.839 No. 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:50.680 Here's the thing, though I actually agreed with you. I 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.120 didn't realize that you were the one that wrote that. 0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:55.760 And to be fair, did I give it two stars? 0:12:55.960 --> 0:12:58.560 Well, I was gonna say, to be fair, you don't 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:00.120 determine how many stars it gets. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.839 I don't the publication publish it. 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:06.520 By the way, that's always the case. That was the 0:13:06.520 --> 0:13:08.120 case at the source too, and that was the case 0:13:08.160 --> 0:13:10.240 that Vibe and we used to give our little red 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.199 light green light, yellow light or whatever we. 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:15.000 Used to do, right, the music editor determines it. 0:13:15.040 --> 0:13:19.559 But somebody doesn't know that, y'all. Y'all know that weight. 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:20.080 I'm a fan. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:21.559 Hold On, I'm listening to what y'all saying. Hold On, 0:13:21.600 --> 0:13:24.120 I'm a fan. What you're saying is the person who 0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:27.680 wrote that whole review doesn't have anything to do with 0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:28.280 those stars. 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:31.240 Now, how so how do they come up with them stars? 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.599 The music editor the music you determined. 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:36.640 Yes, so it's not even based on what you wrote. 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.320 It's just based on what the music editor thinks. 0:13:38.360 --> 0:13:40.000 Now, it's kind of based on what you wrote, and 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.960 it's based on whatever their chase is also. 0:13:43.520 --> 0:13:46.040 But okay, so since you're kind of doing this in 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:50.000 the nineties and I will see that you know post 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:55.400 Karis one PM Dornish confrontation levels. I mean, you worked 0:13:55.440 --> 0:13:57.920 at Vibe where it is, and you worked at Vibe 0:13:58.000 --> 0:14:01.760 during one of the most dangerous issues, of which is 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.000 the death row issue. 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:05.720 Wouldn't your music other Dore's at least want. 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.839 To give you warning if they're going to give it 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:11.240 a less than savory uh rating. 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.560 Knowing I could never answer that question except for on 0:14:14.600 --> 0:14:17.800 a case my case basis. Honestly, it was, as you said, 0:14:17.800 --> 0:14:19.640 it was a very wild time. And when you say 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:21.920 you know I worked that vibe during the most dangerous time, 0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.880 during the death Row issue, I mean I really honestly 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.280 have to look at the dates one because I blocked 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:29.920 so much of that trauma. 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:34.800 Out of I remember everything. 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:40.280 I'm sorry because because what I think people tend to forget, 0:14:40.280 --> 0:14:43.680 at least with me, is that, especially with regard to 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:49.000 death Row when Tupac, Tupac wasn't just celebrity MC for me, 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.360 He's actually a good friend of mine from Oakland, and 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.200 so I recused myself from a lot of the coverage 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.800 of Tupac almost until after he passed. 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.200 It was such a complex time time, such a time 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.600 when I always say that Vibe called upon the strongest 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:10.080 part of me and that it got it. It got it, 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.560 it got it, and it did wear me out, which 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:14.560 is why you know, your music editor for two years 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.080 at least talking about me a music editor for two 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:18.960 years and then I get a fellowship and I go 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.440 to Northwestern for a year because I just wanted out 0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:24.640 for a while, you know, I wanted out for a while. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:26.840 And while I was gone, while I was in Chicago 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:31.480 or in Evanston. Both Biggie and Tupac were murdered while 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.800 I was not even working ad Vine. I ended up 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:38.880 writing the obituary for Biggie for the for the Village Voice, 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:43.000 but I wasn't even working at that time. I was 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.440 trying to, Okay, I wasn't And then I came back 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:48.080 in ninety seven. Everybody had died, and I put Kurt 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.880 Franklin on the cover because he was number one was 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.040 Stump with the Stomp remix, And I felt like that 0:15:54.160 --> 0:15:56.000 was the second line. I felt like we had been 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.240 mourning for a while. We had thought that hip hop 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.720 was going to We thought that everything that the mainstream 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:04.440 had said about it was going to be true, that 0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:06.360 it was just a fat it wasn't real. We was 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.960 all going to kill each other. And then you know, 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.360 you began to feel it rising from its ashes. You know, 0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.400 you got to remember, like that's when Miseducation came out. Really, 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:20.160 Laurence Hill doesn't get the credit she deserves or helping 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.440 bring hip hop back to life after the death of 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.200 Tupac Shakor and then Notorious Big, and then you add 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.360 Kirk Franklin and Salt. They don't also get the credit 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.080 either one of them for helping bringing hip hop back 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.840 to life. And that was actually my first cover as 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:37.520 editor in chief of Vibe was Kirk Franklin and the Family. 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:40.200 That's how I came back in ninety seven. And believe me, 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.960 my publishers and the business people were like, this's a 0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:46.160 soft cover. It's never going to sell. It's not gonna sell, 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.160 it's not gonna sell. And I wasn't really that person 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.600 that was always bragging about, like, I know what the 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:55.120 streets is fell in. I was not always that girl. 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:57.200 I'm very much a pop girl. Pop is in the 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:01.320 title of My Shine Bright. But it's like I didn't 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:03.840 know what the hell was going on, and I knew 0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:06.879 that there's no way that a song was going to 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.040 number one R and B. I believe top ten pop 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.520 for the Stamp remix, and it wasn't like having a 0:17:13.560 --> 0:17:16.360 major impact on the culture. I also knew that because 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.960 gospel never gets the credit that it's due for it's 0:17:19.000 --> 0:17:22.320 impact on culture period, and it had never there had 0:17:22.359 --> 0:17:24.680 never been a gospel artist on the cover of Vibe 0:17:25.200 --> 0:17:29.400 that that the gospel fans, the church folks were gonna 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:31.600 go out and buy two and three issues and they did, 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:32.640 and they did. 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.359 Aren't people more or less investing in the Vibe brand 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:43.720 like I'm going to buy a new Vibe. 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.200 That's true. There are issues of Vibe that did not sell. 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.199 There are issues, there's there's a thing like this. You 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:58.520 have a you have a subscriber base, right, that's your 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.960 small money. But that's your loyalists me. They keep they 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:05.560 keep up paying that thirteen ninety nine a year, twelve 0:18:05.640 --> 0:18:09.000 ninety nine a year, lights on, that's keeping the lights on. 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.720 But the money money is that the news stand back 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.960 when the news stand mattered, Because that's two fifty three 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:20.440 dollars a pot. Whether you're buying it at Bond, Safeway, 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:24.119 Key Food, Barnes and Noble back in the day, Walden 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:27.440 Books or whatever, that's where the money was. And that's 0:18:27.440 --> 0:18:31.880 an impulse buy. And that's what I was judged on. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.560 That's what any editor in chief really is judged on 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:37.080 at the end of the day period, end of story. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.119 Either to imply anything different when the kind of lesson 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.439 the work that you put into figuring out who you 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:44.800 was gonna put on this cover and then the content. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.000 No, you don't even know what's science and The thing 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:51.000 about me was not everybody took Billboard into consideration. I 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.159 took Billboard into consideration because I had been an R 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:54.320 and B editor at Billboard. 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.760 Did you replace Nelson when he left or. 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:02.800 No, it's Jenny McAdams that I replaced McAdam, So wow, yes, 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:04.720 Jenine's between us, so yeah. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:04.840 No. 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.920 I I was a person that always took Billboard into 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.680 consideration because I worked at Billboard, and because even before 0:19:12.720 --> 0:19:15.080 I worked at Billboard, I studied Billboard like a maniac, 0:19:15.119 --> 0:19:17.240 which is why I got the job at Billboard. But 0:19:17.359 --> 0:19:19.359 it's like, no, I was the one that was like, 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.760 if it's bubbling under, it deserves this. If it's doing 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:24.840 this on the charts, if it's number eight with a 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.480 bullet or blah blah chart, then it deserves this. Now, 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.640 people always wanted to argue with me, and we had 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:32.719 the best arguments in the world that vibe. But I 0:19:32.840 --> 0:19:35.159 was the one who always took Billboard into consideration. Not 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:39.239 everybody's like that. Wow, I think, by the way, can 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:42.520 I just say this too. I think it's so crazy 0:19:42.560 --> 0:19:45.119 that I just learned right now that y'all thought every 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:48.760 issue of five sold. When I got to Vibe a no, no, no, no, 0:19:48.880 --> 0:19:49.840 we didn't think that. 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.320 I thought, oh, I thought you were just asking a question. 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.320 I thought you were asking a question mere like was 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:57.520 it the brand that sold? 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:00.680 I mean it's just I mean Circle Out with its 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:04.600 vibe and the source was like a religion and straight. 0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:05.639 Up thank God for y'all. 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:07.320 But we were the ones keeping the lights on though 0:20:07.320 --> 0:20:08.639 we weren't Impulse buys. 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:10.400 It's like podcasts. 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:15.960 It's just like music, right, like we want new podcast. 0:20:15.240 --> 0:20:16.960 So can I ask you this because I didn't know 0:20:17.000 --> 0:20:20.800 this first of all, what is expected for Vibe in 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.840 terms of going platinum? Like how many issues have to 0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:29.800 sell for your whoever the the higher ups are at 0:20:29.800 --> 0:20:33.320 the publishers to say, hey, they're doing well. 0:20:33.440 --> 0:20:36.480 It depends on It depends on the year. It depends 0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.440 on the year because you know magazines, you know, magazines 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.119 are pretty much gone now for all intents and purposes. 0:20:43.560 --> 0:20:45.919 There's not really a news stand that you can depend on. 0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.400 But let's just say, at the height of things, it's 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.439 always a percentage, it's not a it's not an exact number. 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:58.960 So at the height of Vibe, you just never really 0:20:59.000 --> 0:21:05.720 want to be belie fifty fifty percent and and you 0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.480 figure your circulation like the height of the circulation for 0:21:09.480 --> 0:21:11.199 for me, man I got I got a vibe of 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:13.960 it up to I don't know, eight nine hundred thousand. 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:18.480 So you wanna you wanna? You want to sell through 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:22.720 a fifty plus percent? Now, that's high, But I have 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:26.119 an ego that's b plus. The best selling issue a 0:21:26.200 --> 0:21:30.280 vibe in history is the master p issue. Make them say, wait, 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:33.280 what I hate to blow y'all up? 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:39.400 No, I hate now the South is buying Now the South. 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:41.280 That's exactly what is region. 0:21:41.400 --> 0:21:42.600 That's exactly what it is. 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:46.680 Yeah, I would have put my publishing and my cribs. 0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:49.840 I could have sworn that that that Depth Row issue 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:51.680 was the greatest selling against you of all time. 0:21:52.320 --> 0:21:54.639 The thing about that make them say it was it was? 0:21:54.840 --> 0:21:58.199 It was a it was a perfect cover. Wow, it 0:21:58.280 --> 0:22:01.440 was everybody, It was your X. It was a mystical 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:05.600 It was everybody and we and we had a tank 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:10.520 in it. We had a tank and everybody had on camel. 0:22:11.600 --> 0:22:17.160 And so basically the whole cover was green and shades 0:22:17.200 --> 0:22:21.520 of black and white. But we did what's known as 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:25.320 a fifth color in the magazine business, which means basically 0:22:25.359 --> 0:22:29.680 a fluorescent or a or a glitter and we made 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:38.440 the orange fluorescent. That episode left left off. And I'm 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.359 not gonna say how many issues Pee bought, but because 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:46.600 the world would, the world will never know. But it 0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:48.600 was huge. And you gotta remember too. Master P has 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.480 a huge contingency of fans in the Bay Area too, 0:22:51.960 --> 0:22:54.959 out from Richmonds, so he was all over Yeah, So 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:57.360 it was that's really the biggest selling, you know issue. 0:22:57.560 --> 0:22:59.560 I would never say the lowest issue because it's people 0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:01.560 that we all know and love, but it would surprise you, 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:05.920 I would. Y'all gonna have to get that someplace else. 0:23:06.119 --> 0:23:07.440 Man, it's twenty years ago. 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.720 Twenty years it feels like yesterday to me, though. I 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:12.640 feel like I'm on my way to an editorial meeting 0:23:12.720 --> 0:23:14.240 right now. Y'all like gonna get me out here like 0:23:14.280 --> 0:23:16.920 this A damn it. 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.359 Now now I'm gonna go. I literally have issues in 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:22.600 the room to see it. If I text you got 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:23.440 to verify. 0:23:23.119 --> 0:23:25.240 It, I will, I will, but I can't because it's 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:28.480 like it's mean, man, And it doesn't necessarily sometimes even 0:23:28.520 --> 0:23:29.640 have to do with the person. 0:23:30.200 --> 0:23:30.960 It's me. 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:35.199 It could be the photography, it could be anything. It 0:23:35.320 --> 0:23:38.800 just doesn't necessarily it could be the truck was late, man. 0:23:38.840 --> 0:23:41.040 Please tell me what it was, Yode. 0:23:41.200 --> 0:23:44.200 You don't get it from me. No, and you talk 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.560 about you fear me. You see how easy I'm scary. 0:23:47.160 --> 0:23:49.960 I'm scary, Like I can't say that that's so mean? 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:51.480 What if I just said, yes. 0:23:51.359 --> 0:23:55.639 It's not mean. Particular facts in business, This particular. 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.080 MC has the lowest selling issue in the history of Vibe. 0:23:58.440 --> 0:24:07.399 That's hardcore. It's definitely ja I will say that from 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:09.960 the south though. Just to show you how things change. 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:13.760 Is somebody is it somebody who has a career or 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:15.880 they considered a legend still they do. 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:17.560 They have a career rapping? Or do they just have 0:24:17.600 --> 0:24:18.080 a career. 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:20.880 Do they have a career, Do you have a career. 0:24:21.440 --> 0:24:23.399 They have a career, but they don't necessarily have a 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:24.080 career in rapping. 0:24:24.680 --> 0:24:28.760 Okay, all right, I got it anyway, So I do 0:24:28.880 --> 0:24:32.000 want to know what what was the first or at 0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:36.440 least national Well, you said that is the very first 0:24:36.440 --> 0:24:38.600 time that your work appeared. 0:24:38.160 --> 0:24:41.040 In a national magazine. I would say, no, that's not 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:43.440 the case. I would say the first time I had 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:47.919 a national story was in spind magazine. There was a 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:49.680 column there called Dreaming America. 0:24:50.200 --> 0:24:50.400 Yep. 0:24:50.880 --> 0:24:55.000 That was my first national Uh, that was my first 0:24:55.080 --> 0:24:57.919 national thing. And I always remember that I couldn't believe 0:24:57.920 --> 0:24:59.760 I was getting paid a dollar a word? 0:25:00.920 --> 0:25:03.560 Was that standard or was that like that was. 0:25:03.560 --> 0:25:06.359 A standard for mainstream people don't even get that now, 0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:10.800 And it's like I was made. I was now hope listen, 0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:12.199 you used to be able to make a living as 0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:15.200 a writer. It's very difficult to do so now. Even 0:25:15.240 --> 0:25:19.240 in the Bay Area, I was getting ten, fifteen twenty 0:25:19.560 --> 0:25:22.720 cent a word. If I wrote a fifteen hundred word piece, 0:25:22.760 --> 0:25:26.080 I was getting one hundred and fifty dollars. But when 0:25:26.160 --> 0:25:28.320 when and at Craig Marks, he's the he's actually the 0:25:28.400 --> 0:25:30.920 music editor of the La Times right now. Craig was 0:25:31.040 --> 0:25:34.920 music editor of Spend back then. And when he said 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:37.320 it was a dollar a word and eight hundred eight 0:25:37.400 --> 0:25:42.080 hundred words, I just remember thinking, so, that's that's pretty 0:25:42.119 --> 0:25:45.879 much rent in Oway back then. And I felt like 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:48.639 and I felt like I felt like back then, and 0:25:48.680 --> 0:25:51.720 I felt like I could stay in this. I could 0:25:51.760 --> 0:25:53.680 stay in this. But yeah, I wrote it. I think 0:25:53.680 --> 0:25:59.359 my first one was about Yo Yo Okay, Yes, Black 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:02.720 Pearl Forever. Yeah, I wrote about DJ Quick for Spin, 0:26:04.280 --> 0:26:07.920 who's also a favorite still And then it was out 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:09.720 of those Spin clips and a couple of things I 0:26:09.760 --> 0:26:12.800 did for The Village Voice that brought me to the 0:26:12.840 --> 0:26:16.320 notice of Allen Light and Anthony de Curtis are Rolling Stone. 0:26:16.359 --> 0:26:19.879 And then I was only really R and B editor 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:22.000 at Billboard for like six or eight months something to 0:26:22.080 --> 0:26:27.200 outline and shine Bright. But then Vibe lunched and Allen 0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:30.160 had gone over there as music editor, and when he 0:26:30.240 --> 0:26:34.440 was promoted to editor in chief because Jonathan Van Meterer left, 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:37.639 then Alan asked me to come over as music editor 0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:40.240 and it was it was a wild two years. 0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:40.520 In that job. 0:26:41.080 --> 0:26:44.040 I always thought Spend was the weird cousin to Vibe magazine. 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:46.160 I thought they were weirdly related, like they had some 0:26:46.240 --> 0:26:47.320 kind of similar. 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:50.960 I mean, at the beginning we didn't. But then like 0:26:51.119 --> 0:26:53.919 in the I guess late nineties two thousands, Yeah, we 0:26:53.920 --> 0:26:55.680 were owned by the same company and we were in 0:26:55.720 --> 0:26:56.399 the same building. 0:26:57.600 --> 0:27:01.919 What was the company Adventures? 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:05.240 Oh so okay, theyve. 0:27:04.520 --> 0:27:08.320 Ventures owned Vibe and Spin and BLA and Blaze at 0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:09.000 that time too. 0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:16.240 A Blaze man, I forgot about remember that Blaze battle. 0:27:16.280 --> 0:27:18.600 It was mainly just primarily hip hop, but I remember 0:27:18.840 --> 0:27:21.359 it was like pre complex real. 0:27:21.680 --> 0:27:25.399 Journalism though it was. It was Jesse Washington was the 0:27:25.480 --> 0:27:28.080 editor in chief. I was the editorial director. Jesse Washington 0:27:28.160 --> 0:27:30.680 is actually at espn Z Undefeated. 0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:35.840 Now, okay, yeah, we we we had our umatic rating 0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:39.399 moment with Blaze like things fall apart, like got a 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:42.280 perfect five rating there in that in the jay Z. 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:49.639 The monitoring these reviews about about right now does my 0:27:49.720 --> 0:27:52.000 heart good. Though. It does my heart good to know 0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:55.639 that somebody of your stature and talent and genius is 0:27:55.680 --> 0:28:00.280 paying attention like that, because we really tried, like we 0:28:00.280 --> 0:28:04.240 weren't up there like pooling around like we were about passion, 0:28:04.280 --> 0:28:07.679 but we were about rigor. We were about facts, and 0:28:07.720 --> 0:28:11.840 we were about deep and strong opinions. We were about design, photography, 0:28:11.880 --> 0:28:14.760 We're about fashion, style, all of it. And so the 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:20.760 fact that you being you were paying attention that hard, honestly, 0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.639 it doesn't matter good. And anybody that listens to this, 0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:26.520 that used to work at Vibi source XXL, any of it, 0:28:27.000 --> 0:28:31.280 rahap sheet, all of it, honey, honey. 0:28:31.280 --> 0:28:33.359 All of it, it matters. 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:34.879 I mean I could take it to Ego Trip, I 0:28:34.880 --> 0:28:36.760 could take it to one network. I could take it 0:28:36.800 --> 0:28:40.560 to for yately, I could keep going, like I could 0:28:40.640 --> 0:28:45.000 keep going the fact that any of us that worked 0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:47.720 in those spaces were being paid attention to, that our 0:28:47.760 --> 0:28:51.800 work was being monitored or enjoyed or even it matters 0:28:51.840 --> 0:28:52.680 a lot to us. 0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:56.400 Look all right, So the deal is, I think in 0:28:56.440 --> 0:29:01.160 that Princess you if you guys remember the Prince Vibe issue, 0:29:01.200 --> 0:29:02.680 the Prince Vibe Coup issue. 0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:08.080 Yes, there's a write up for zing Lamadoony. 0:29:09.040 --> 0:29:13.280 That single handedly like if you want to know the 0:29:13.360 --> 0:29:21.400 beginning of Questlove's micromanage era of like I must write 0:29:21.440 --> 0:29:25.440 all the liner notes. I must no, I must do 0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:29.840 all the interviews I must like no article ever scared 0:29:29.880 --> 0:29:30.320 me more. 0:29:30.360 --> 0:29:32.200 And the thing is is that you know, now I 0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:32.560 live in. 0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:36.440 An era where you know, I mean you know I 0:29:36.520 --> 0:29:39.160 read the New York Times now just read like this year, 0:29:39.240 --> 0:29:42.480 everyone's celebrating the fact that New York Times gave like 0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:46.760 eleven Madison a two star review, which is like soccers 0:29:46.880 --> 0:29:48.800 or you know, I mean, there's been like sort of 0:29:48.840 --> 0:29:51.600 like crazy reviews, like Miles Davis is on the corner 0:29:51.640 --> 0:29:55.480 for Downbeat magazine like throughout history. You know, it's different 0:29:55.560 --> 0:29:58.120 now because in the Internet I sort of feel like 0:29:59.320 --> 0:30:02.640 artists write for each other like hey, check this out, 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:04.600 you know that sort of thing, like when they're really 0:30:04.640 --> 0:30:05.040 going to go. 0:30:05.600 --> 0:30:09.040 But to me, when I read your. 0:30:08.960 --> 0:30:13.600 Arrested development Zingle Lamaduni feature, to me, that was like, 0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:22.760 it was literally like watching the Apocalypse now documentary or 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:27.120 Amir is also known for good hyper bowl quotes. No, 0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:31.160 but it's it was And it wasn't even you didn't 0:30:31.160 --> 0:30:34.000 even have to do anything. You didn't It wasn't a 0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:38.920 takedown from your point of view, Like literally, speech was 0:30:39.000 --> 0:30:42.480 kind of sleep at the Wheel and the entire band 0:30:42.560 --> 0:30:46.600 decided they're going to do a mutiny in this article. 0:30:47.000 --> 0:30:51.440 And at that point I realized, like, oh man, a 0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:55.840 career could be made or or dead it in one 0:30:55.920 --> 0:30:58.880 fell swoop with just one article running. 0:30:58.520 --> 0:31:02.080 Point for me. Okay, so long story, I guess. Long 0:31:02.120 --> 0:31:06.200 story short, It's like I didn't even work at Vibe 0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:08.240 at that point. I was functioning as a freelance writer, 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:11.840 but I had a reputation in the business for being 0:31:13.080 --> 0:31:17.400 on point, on time and thorough and more than that, 0:31:17.840 --> 0:31:20.640 I had written a piece for a magazine that doesn't 0:31:20.680 --> 0:31:24.200 exist anymore and hasn't for years, called Request magazine that 0:31:24.280 --> 0:31:26.120 you used to be able to get at Tower Records. 0:31:26.480 --> 0:31:28.560 Okay, yes, I love the Requests. 0:31:28.880 --> 0:31:31.720 It's a great magazine. And if you count that as national, 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:35.000 which I don't always, just because it was given away 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:36.960 for free at Tower and you didn't pay for it. 0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:39.520 But that was probably really my first national look was 0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:42.600 in Requests. So I did a cover story on Arrested 0:31:42.640 --> 0:31:44.040 Development when they launched. 0:31:45.200 --> 0:31:46.960 Oh, okay, okay, So. 0:31:49.120 --> 0:31:53.280 It was great. Man, you're talking about Tennessee, you know 0:31:53.280 --> 0:31:55.800 what I mean? You talking about all of that. I 0:31:55.880 --> 0:31:57.640 fell in love with them, man, I fell in love 0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:00.280 with them, they fell in love with me. It was 0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:04.440 a Carver story. And this was back before I had 0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:06.560 been in the business long enough to realize it's not 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:08.520 always wise to fall in love with groups, and it's 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:11.000 not always wise to allow groups to fall in love 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:14.440 with you. I didn't know. I was a child. I 0:32:14.520 --> 0:32:17.360 was in my early twenties, mid twenties something like that. 0:32:17.760 --> 0:32:21.680 I didn't know you live and learn. So then when 0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:25.760 there's second album is coming out, it was emi am 0:32:25.800 --> 0:32:26.160 I right? 0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:26.760 Yeah. 0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:30.840 So the woman who was a publicist there was like, hey, 0:32:31.000 --> 0:32:33.720 you know, Vibe is doing this thing. Do you want 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:36.080 to go, you know, go back and talk to Speech 0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:39.760 and everybody in the group. Yes, definitely, I was freelancing too. 0:32:39.800 --> 0:32:41.720 It was just like, it sounds exciting, you gonna send 0:32:41.720 --> 0:32:44.600 me to Atlanta. So I went down there and my 0:32:44.640 --> 0:32:47.800 first conversation was with Speech, as it should be, and 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:51.040 I have a lot of respect for him, but you 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:53.080 could tell from the moment that I got in a 0:32:53.160 --> 0:32:57.920 car with him that things weren't okay with the group, 0:33:00.200 --> 0:33:02.560 and it seemed like something he didn't want to get 0:33:02.560 --> 0:33:05.720 into detail about. But you know, as a reporter, I 0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:10.240 have my instincts, I have my feelings, and so when 0:33:10.280 --> 0:33:12.280 I began to talk to the other members. 0:33:11.920 --> 0:33:15.360 Of the group and you were allowed to, Yes, this was. 0:33:15.360 --> 0:33:18.400 A different time, y'all. There was no internet. 0:33:19.280 --> 0:33:24.040 Interview, no evidence. 0:33:29.520 --> 0:33:32.719 And what's so wild though, it was like at a 0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:36.840 certain point I wasn't even going to people to talk 0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:41.840 to them, and were coming to me. And listen, I 0:33:41.880 --> 0:33:45.000 remember that group so well, man, and it's it's heartbreaking 0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:49.240 to me because there's such a like the music isn't 0:33:49.240 --> 0:33:53.239 necessarily necessarily always so like wildly optimistic. But it's just 0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:57.160 like I've been around Public Enemy. Those are my guys. 0:33:57.680 --> 0:34:00.880 They're not the most optimistic group of brothers. You know, 0:34:01.960 --> 0:34:04.480 not like but but but with the group of rest 0:34:04.520 --> 0:34:06.800 of Development, they came back. They were taking us back 0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:09.800 to the South, like they were reminding us of our groups. 0:34:11.360 --> 0:34:13.640 Everything was like, you know, the blood in the in 0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:16.000 the dirt, like we was all in the red class, 0:34:16.200 --> 0:34:18.520 like we was all in it, like everybody from the 0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:21.239 Northeast used to go back south in the summertime. Like 0:34:21.480 --> 0:34:23.520 all of that feeling was there. But then, you know, 0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:36.120 I remember that DJ's name was Headliner, right, Dion Ferris. 0:34:32.760 --> 0:34:35.680 Was coming back. It's coming back, It's coming back, all right, and. 0:34:36.280 --> 0:34:38.760 You know, things just weren't going well. It's so hard. 0:34:38.800 --> 0:34:41.759 And I know, Quest knows this hard to keep a 0:34:41.800 --> 0:34:46.520 band together. Anybody watched the Metallica documentary knows that. And 0:34:46.520 --> 0:34:49.360 it's like, it's hard to keep a band together. And 0:34:50.640 --> 0:34:53.640 you could ask, you could ask, you could ask the Supremes, 0:34:53.680 --> 0:34:56.160 you can anybody the comress like it's hard to keep 0:34:56.200 --> 0:35:02.080 a band together. Yes, and everybody was mad, and everybody's 0:35:02.080 --> 0:35:03.920 talking into the tape recorder and. 0:35:03.880 --> 0:35:07.520 They let her know. I went. 0:35:07.719 --> 0:35:10.839 If you remember Ursula Smith, who was my publicist at 0:35:10.840 --> 0:35:14.480 the time, set the run, No no, no, no, She 0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:17.400 left set the run and started her own. I forget 0:35:17.800 --> 0:35:21.560 her and Amy Mars had their own thing, and I 0:35:21.640 --> 0:35:25.279 came in the following Monday like shake it in my 0:35:25.320 --> 0:35:29.120 boots because I was just like, oh, man, like they're 0:35:29.200 --> 0:35:33.640 done with, They're over with, And if they're that easy. 0:35:33.360 --> 0:35:36.240 To get, like what does that mean for us? 0:35:37.280 --> 0:35:40.680 And like the amount of talking me off the ledge 0:35:40.680 --> 0:35:44.279 for like two days straight because I don't know. In 0:35:44.320 --> 0:35:48.240 my mind, I just felt like arrest development had reached 0:35:48.239 --> 0:35:52.239 the mountaintop. They've reached the mountaintop that day. Yeah, that 0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:54.839 Daylight Tribe, like a lot of those acts couldn't get 0:35:54.880 --> 0:35:55.440 to But. 0:35:55.400 --> 0:35:57.680 They didn't come up together though, right, Like did they 0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:00.560 come up together like that all of their Yeah, I 0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:01.760 mean people. 0:36:01.560 --> 0:36:03.960 Of them had with a lot of other groups like 0:36:04.000 --> 0:36:08.759 that didn't. Once Speech had mad ambition. Everybody doesn't come 0:36:08.800 --> 0:36:11.520 with mad ambition. Some people just want to make a 0:36:11.600 --> 0:36:14.239 record and get it out there. Some other people have 0:36:14.320 --> 0:36:17.399 mad ambition, and Speech had that. It was a very 0:36:17.440 --> 0:36:20.120 difficult piece to write, a very difficult piece to publish. 0:36:20.200 --> 0:36:22.160 It was fact checking, went through the lawyers and went 0:36:22.200 --> 0:36:25.000 through all of that, and it was very difficult to publish. 0:36:25.080 --> 0:36:28.040 And guests, the publicists wildly mad at me. Some in 0:36:28.080 --> 0:36:29.920 the group were wildly mad at me. Some in the 0:36:29.960 --> 0:36:35.279 group were so happy and grateful to me. Some were 0:36:39.760 --> 0:36:42.359 we're grateful to me. But I just want to say 0:36:42.440 --> 0:36:45.799 as well, it just basically outlined that the group was 0:36:45.800 --> 0:36:48.040 not happy and was probably not going to stay together. 0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:51.719 Gotcha, Okay, check it out. I don't know. Have you 0:36:51.800 --> 0:36:54.240 have you read Murray's White's autobiography. 0:36:54.560 --> 0:36:55.520 I have not yet. 0:36:55.960 --> 0:36:58.640 I mean, it's kind of the structure where wait, we 0:36:58.800 --> 0:37:01.160 just recently did and interview with someone. 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:03.280 He was Larry Blair. 0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:03.839 Black said. 0:37:04.239 --> 0:37:09.600 Larry Blair said it was a democracy. Uh uh, what 0:37:09.640 --> 0:37:14.640 do you call it? Dictatorship? It's like it's like a 0:37:14.640 --> 0:37:19.960 democracy dictatorship where I guess it's the I I think 0:37:19.960 --> 0:37:25.160 it's the the idea of, hey, we're a community where 0:37:25.200 --> 0:37:27.920 all these things. But really, I mean, the decision falls 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:29.600 on one person, that person's. 0:37:29.239 --> 0:37:32.120 Speech and about a lot of groups like that. 0:37:34.680 --> 0:37:36.160 So that's why I'm saying with the with the Earth, 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:39.440 Wind and Fire book, No, not even that, I mean 0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:42.560 Marius White, I mean Philip Bailey. He went into heavy 0:37:42.680 --> 0:37:47.719 with Oh, okay, Maurice is sort of the state of Earth, 0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:48.279 would and Fire. 0:37:48.320 --> 0:37:50.520 We're just people for higher. 0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:56.759 And as as I'm certain that you know Fonte, you 0:37:56.800 --> 0:37:59.840 know absolutely as an artist about being blue collar. Like 0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:04.319 often we get in this game because we you know, 0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:08.160 we we see these slow motion william shots and it's 0:38:08.200 --> 0:38:12.280 like we get our Bentley moment and it never happens 0:38:12.280 --> 0:38:17.719 that way. And it's just that this time headliner was 0:38:17.800 --> 0:38:21.600 just mad about his money, mad about like the situations. 0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:24.680 But it was very much like you know, the rest 0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:25.440 of the band. 0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:31.279 Was explaining how unsatisfied they were with the situation that 0:38:31.320 --> 0:38:31.560 they were. 0:38:32.480 --> 0:38:35.040 But I can see how it could have an effect 0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:37.200 on you as it had an effect on a lot 0:38:37.239 --> 0:38:41.160 of people that piece because one it said that Vibe 0:38:41.239 --> 0:38:43.640 was going to do stuff like that. 0:38:43.640 --> 0:38:46.960 That's the first thing Black people never seen something to 0:38:47.000 --> 0:38:47.520 that level. 0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:52.400 No, because this is the thing because because the media 0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:57.520 that is considered to be ours right have any essence, 0:38:57.880 --> 0:39:01.400 you know, going back to the to the black newspapers 0:39:01.400 --> 0:39:03.520 that came out of Reconstruction all the way up through 0:39:03.520 --> 0:39:07.279 the fifties and through the civil rights movement and everything else. 0:39:07.400 --> 0:39:10.279 Like the reason that these things came to be is 0:39:10.280 --> 0:39:12.880 because we were treated so unfairly by the mainstream media, 0:39:14.080 --> 0:39:17.399 or we were just erased or not even considered. You know, 0:39:17.920 --> 0:39:20.000 you would talk about music in a certain town and 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:21.640 you would just talk about all the white artists and 0:39:21.640 --> 0:39:23.920 never talk about the black artists. Or you would talk 0:39:23.920 --> 0:39:25.560 about all the male artists and not talk about the 0:39:25.600 --> 0:39:26.400 women artists. 0:39:26.719 --> 0:39:27.319 So it's like. 0:39:28.760 --> 0:39:31.120 Vibe existed in a space of like, well, of course 0:39:31.120 --> 0:39:33.520 this is going to always be a place of celebration. 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:37.440 But the thing that I always did learn from Quincy 0:39:37.520 --> 0:39:39.520 Jones is that Vibe was to be a place of 0:39:39.560 --> 0:39:43.360 celebration and interrogation. That no one would trust us on 0:39:43.400 --> 0:39:48.520 the celebration if we didn't also do the interrogation. And 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:56.040 so I felt supported by Quincy by Alan in doing that. 0:39:56.560 --> 0:40:00.319 And honestly, it was a very difficult piece for me 0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:03.480 to write for the for the magazine to publish, and 0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:08.960 also it set the industry back on his heels a 0:40:08.960 --> 0:40:13.319 bit that it's like, we love Vibe, but you just 0:40:13.600 --> 0:40:18.520 don't know. You still kids don't know. Yeah, And so 0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:22.040 to some that was great because it meant that we 0:40:22.040 --> 0:40:26.799 weren't like a pamphlet, or we weren't just like it 0:40:26.880 --> 0:40:30.920 meant that, yes, you got to remember one of the 0:40:30.960 --> 0:40:33.359 first pieces, and Bob, I think it's in the Treasch 0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:37.000 issue right that the test issue in which Trench was 0:40:37.040 --> 0:40:38.800 on the cover, and there's a big piece by the 0:40:38.840 --> 0:40:41.480 great Scott Posts and Brian in that piece and the 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:44.760 and the headline is one for all time about Sean Colmes. 0:40:45.800 --> 0:40:50.759 The headline is this is not a puff piece right right, 0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:55.440 So it's something for so many meanings and so and 0:40:55.480 --> 0:40:58.520 so we were always on that, even with all the 0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:01.880 Death Row stuff. It's like, are you know? People were like, 0:41:02.320 --> 0:41:04.680 are you guys contributing to it? It's like are we? 0:41:04.800 --> 0:41:09.280 But are we reporting as any other culture would report 0:41:09.360 --> 0:41:13.120 on its culture? And is that also new and different 0:41:14.000 --> 0:41:17.680 for black and multi the black and multicultural audience vibe 0:41:18.160 --> 0:41:22.560 to hear and see. So it was it was very. 0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:28.600 Hard for most black women. 0:41:28.680 --> 0:41:30.719 At some point you feel that protect the moment where 0:41:30.719 --> 0:41:32.759 you're like, you know, do you have to fight that 0:41:32.800 --> 0:41:36.239 protect the moment and go with more of your journalistic 0:41:36.320 --> 0:41:37.200 mind or does that not. 0:41:37.200 --> 0:41:38.359 Even ever come into your head? 0:41:38.400 --> 0:41:40.320 There's this and it's funny because I was like, I 0:41:40.320 --> 0:41:41.960 wonder if she writes it, I haven't gotten to that 0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:43.920 point if you write about this and shine bright, But 0:41:44.560 --> 0:41:48.080 I was like, you know that protector moment where you 0:41:48.160 --> 0:41:52.920 go this could maybe hurt this feeling, you know, so 0:41:52.960 --> 0:41:53.839 maybe I won't do that. 0:41:54.080 --> 0:41:55.160 Did you ever have that moment? 0:41:55.520 --> 0:41:57.920 I have that moment every day of my career? 0:41:58.239 --> 0:42:00.759 Okay, okay, I thought that to tell I look at 0:42:00.760 --> 0:42:02.160 your face. I was like, am I saying something born? 0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:06.360 I know every every every every day of my career, 0:42:06.360 --> 0:42:12.520 and especially as editor in chief of Vibe. It's it's 0:42:12.560 --> 0:42:15.680 even different as being editor of Billboard. Talk about that. Wow, 0:42:15.880 --> 0:42:18.919 it's a trade magazine. It's it's all, it's all, it's 0:42:18.920 --> 0:42:23.120 all genres. I gotta know about what's going on in country, classical, 0:42:23.320 --> 0:42:27.200 adult contemporary bubbling under, like I gotta know about what's 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:30.320 going on everywhere, what's going on with pop singles, pop albums, 0:42:30.320 --> 0:42:31.840 like I know R and B this, R and B that. 0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:34.080 I gotta know what's going on in Latin music. I 0:42:34.080 --> 0:42:35.880 gotta know what's going on globally, Like I gotta know 0:42:35.880 --> 0:42:38.759 what's going on everywhere and make decisions based on all 0:42:38.760 --> 0:42:40.560 of that. But you know, when you're a Vibe, you're 0:42:40.560 --> 0:42:42.920 covering black culture for a multi for a black and 0:42:43.040 --> 0:42:46.359 multicultural audience. It's not even used to being covered all 0:42:46.400 --> 0:42:50.400 the time with rigor and passion. It's like it's like 0:42:50.520 --> 0:42:52.920 even like in history, if you look at Ebony at 0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:55.799 the very beginnings of Abnuye, it's like James Ball when 0:42:55.840 --> 0:42:58.439 and everybody's in there. It's a different situation. But then 0:42:58.960 --> 0:43:02.399 to me, you took pressures from the community. It just 0:43:02.640 --> 0:43:05.879 became more and more like you can always expect good 0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:07.880 and proper news from Ebanue. 0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:12.920 Until that Cosby issue. Well, no, no, it hats off 0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:15.200 to Kiaran for that. Yes, that's the first. 0:43:15.080 --> 0:43:19.320 Time that from what generation, the hip hop generation. 0:43:19.640 --> 0:43:21.600 Yes, exactly, yes, And. 0:43:21.560 --> 0:43:24.640 So that's what I'm saying. It just it's it's hard, 0:43:25.160 --> 0:43:27.600 you know, it's hard when I can think of even 0:43:27.760 --> 0:43:30.360 small things like I remember I interviewed Wesley Snipes for 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:32.120 the cover of That's my first Vibe cover. 0:43:32.560 --> 0:43:34.320 Yeah, I remember that issue. 0:43:34.440 --> 0:43:36.279 That was a great issue. Man. My mom drove me 0:43:36.320 --> 0:43:39.640 to his house in Venice. He was going through it. 0:43:39.640 --> 0:43:44.400 And that also that movie wasn't good, which it was Demolition. 0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:47.960 Man, The Blind Hair. 0:43:49.680 --> 0:43:49.879 Hot. 0:43:50.000 --> 0:43:53.200 It was a hot mess and the movie the film was, 0:43:53.280 --> 0:43:58.120 but Wesley himself wasn't and it never has been. So 0:43:59.040 --> 0:44:00.680 to me, it's one of the more under rated these 0:44:01.480 --> 0:44:04.200 actors in the history of cinema. Like he's so good. 0:44:04.600 --> 0:44:06.960 I'm not saying he's made all the proper moves and 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:09.920 all of that. But but my thing is, how do 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:14.080 you how do you say that? But then how. 0:44:13.960 --> 0:44:17.520 Do you say in a way that's not how do 0:44:17.520 --> 0:44:18.040 you say that? 0:44:18.200 --> 0:44:20.480 And that's the work for me, That's the work in 0:44:20.600 --> 0:44:23.719 shine bright for me, Like how do I how do 0:44:23.800 --> 0:44:26.560 I talk about Whitney Houston's mom? 0:44:27.000 --> 0:44:30.680 Sure you handled that awesomely, by the way. 0:44:30.520 --> 0:44:33.640 Oh thank you? Who to me is it's just like 0:44:34.239 --> 0:44:37.000 she's so important to the history of American populic she 0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:41.520 literally trained Whitney Houston. She literally sang behind Elvis Presley, 0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:45.319 she literally sang behind Bam Morrison, Jimmy Hendris, everybody. And 0:44:45.320 --> 0:44:48.200 it's like she literally contributed to the vocal arrangements for 0:44:48.360 --> 0:44:51.440 all of this big pop and she trained Whitney. At 0:44:51.480 --> 0:44:53.960 the same time, she just didn't accept her daughter for 0:44:54.000 --> 0:44:54.560 who she was. 0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:55.120 Yo. 0:44:55.200 --> 0:44:57.080 And can I just say on that note, it's so 0:44:57.200 --> 0:44:59.840 funny you say that, because as we're going through all 0:44:59.880 --> 0:45:02.560 the these different lenses and filters for people these days 0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:05.279 when it comes to the music business, I find it 0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:08.840 harder and harder to apply those filters if you really 0:45:08.880 --> 0:45:11.759 want the true story about things, or you really want 0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:14.520 to talk to people like if we really we I mean, 0:45:14.520 --> 0:45:16.520 we've had these moments where, you know, even talking to 0:45:16.600 --> 0:45:18.279 me and a miryor Well and Jake will talk about 0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:20.719 people and we'll be like, yes, they were significant, they 0:45:20.760 --> 0:45:24.960 are historical. These conversations should be had. However, but this 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:28.440 little thing had happened. And so I'm so curious, Danielle, 0:45:28.520 --> 0:45:32.360 how you navigate that? Like, because even in a situation 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:35.520 like I can't even say names because you feel guilty. 0:45:35.560 --> 0:45:38.360 But no man who was doing business in the sixties, 0:45:38.400 --> 0:45:42.600 seventies and eighties is fucking straightforward has no shit with 0:45:42.719 --> 0:45:45.160 them basically, right, there's no man. 0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:46.320 There's no man. 0:45:46.520 --> 0:45:48.200 So how do you like navigate that? 0:45:48.200 --> 0:45:49.200 That's it'sious. 0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:55.320 Well, I don't be canceled culture was I think then 0:45:55.960 --> 0:45:57.920 you know what I mean, right as wes as it 0:45:58.040 --> 0:45:58.359 is now. 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:01.040 Yeah, I guess that's why less get paid less and 0:46:01.120 --> 0:46:03.480 less they can hardly write well. 0:46:03.560 --> 0:46:07.320 It's also because artists have so many other avenues in 0:46:07.360 --> 0:46:09.040 which to tell their story. It used to be that 0:46:09.120 --> 0:46:13.320 the only place that you had to know. Yeah, you 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:14.960 just go on I Live. You can go right to 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:17.960 your Twitter feed, your ig feed, and some of that. 0:46:18.200 --> 0:46:22.239 I have to say, I am not. 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:27.719 Mad at like I I miss it, even if it's 0:46:27.880 --> 0:46:29.280 the judgment of your. 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:31.600 Do I miss it? Yes? Do I miss being? Like 0:46:32.280 --> 0:46:35.000 you have to go through vibe essentially you got to 0:46:35.040 --> 0:46:39.319 go through me and my cord, right, So do you 0:46:39.400 --> 0:46:42.000 miss that feeling of like, oh my god, yeah, this 0:46:42.120 --> 0:46:44.880 is we're vibe? But yeah, of course. But you know, 0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:48.960 to everything, there is a season we were we were 0:46:49.000 --> 0:46:52.560 we were needed for that at that time, we were 0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:55.480 desperately needed. But I can just give you an example. 0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:59.400 So I'm doing this. I'm doing this, Uh this picture 0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:03.520 me doing a talking head moment for a Michael Jackson documentary. 0:47:04.080 --> 0:47:06.560 Okay, thank you, come on, yes and. 0:47:06.480 --> 0:47:08.919 So and so no, and not even to get into 0:47:08.920 --> 0:47:11.799 the complexities of Michael situation, but just to say this, 0:47:12.000 --> 0:47:14.360 just to talk about the Internet part of it. So 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:18.560 the person that's directing her answered asking me the question, says, 0:47:19.440 --> 0:47:21.960 don't you just find the Internet to be totally overwhelming 0:47:22.000 --> 0:47:25.040 and ridiculous? Like you can just put Michael Jackson's name 0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:29.600 into into a Google search bar and then like eight 0:47:29.760 --> 0:47:35.719 million pictures come back about Michael Jackson, twelve million stories headlines, 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:38.720 everything in the world is just so overwhelming and terrible. 0:47:38.840 --> 0:47:41.839 Isn't that just cheapening Michael's legacy? This, that, and the third? 0:47:41.880 --> 0:47:44.759 And I was like, not, actually I don't because see, 0:47:44.760 --> 0:47:47.760 I grew up a Michael Jackson fan, and I couldn't 0:47:47.800 --> 0:47:52.200 find anything about Michael Jackson when I'm nineteen eleven, twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 0:47:52.239 --> 0:47:55.160 fifteen years old, and all I wanted to know about 0:47:55.239 --> 0:47:58.080 was Michael Jackson. If I didn't have Cynthia Horner's right 0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:01.680 on magazine, what really would I have? 0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:02.920 Right? 0:48:03.360 --> 0:48:07.439 I said, I was insatiable when you're thirteen year old 0:48:07.480 --> 0:48:10.319 as a fan. Oh my god, was insatiable. And I 0:48:10.320 --> 0:48:12.840 couldn't find anything. And I told him, I said, so, 0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:18.120 I actually feel flush man with joy that I can 0:48:18.200 --> 0:48:20.360 put Michael Jackson's name into a Google search and just 0:48:20.400 --> 0:48:24.120 see every million, even if the news is bad, even 0:48:24.160 --> 0:48:28.400 if the news is ugly. I I would rather that 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:31.200 than to have, like to be searching and thirsty to 0:48:31.280 --> 0:48:35.680 know something about being one. Yes, So that's why go ahead? 0:48:35.719 --> 0:48:37.279 Can I ask a question? All right? 0:48:38.040 --> 0:48:41.560 I was going to ask you what was the hardest 0:48:41.640 --> 0:48:45.440 issue for you to execute? However, I wanted to take 0:48:45.440 --> 0:48:49.720 a while guess how hard was that Michael Jackson issued 0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:50.440 to put together. 0:48:51.680 --> 0:48:53.319 Of course, you know what I mean? What year was that? 0:48:53.440 --> 0:48:53.520 Was? 0:48:53.560 --> 0:48:53.839 I there? 0:48:54.000 --> 0:48:56.360 Ninety five Michael Jackson was on the cover of Vibe 0:48:56.360 --> 0:49:01.960 magazine dressed very uncharacteristically. He was I think Cadata had 0:49:02.040 --> 0:49:06.160 dressed him in Tommy. Wait, you don't remember this. 0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:09.000 I don't remember he had a kango on. 0:49:09.080 --> 0:49:12.000 He got a kango remember Michael Jackson. 0:49:12.200 --> 0:49:15.239 I remember it. I remember it. Wait a minute, let 0:49:15.239 --> 0:49:17.160 me let me take me into my memory. Whoever just 0:49:17.160 --> 0:49:19.120 looked it up? What are the cover lines on there? 0:49:19.360 --> 0:49:21.520 Reading Michael makes history? 0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:24.359 Uh the King of Pop strikes a pose, Easy E's 0:49:24.480 --> 0:49:29.080 Final Days, Notorious Big Smokers smokes Cali into the Wu 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:32.359 Tang clan with uh oh, I can't read the name 0:49:32.440 --> 0:49:35.920 something uhlone. 0:49:37.040 --> 0:49:38.359 That was ninety five. 0:49:38.960 --> 0:49:41.000 Barely have any memory of that except for Easy. 0:49:41.160 --> 0:49:44.680 Damn. That's a flex. That's a flex. Michael Jackson, don't 0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:45.160 remember that ship. 0:49:45.280 --> 0:49:46.959 What do you remember about Easy? What do you remember 0:49:46.960 --> 0:49:47.760 about the Easy interview? 0:49:48.880 --> 0:49:49.680 This is Easy? 0:49:49.960 --> 0:49:51.839 Well, this is this is post he had died. 0:49:53.080 --> 0:49:56.040 Yeah, yeah, I mean that's what that was. That's what 0:49:56.120 --> 0:49:59.279 That's what I remember about that about that particular issue 0:49:59.320 --> 0:50:03.200 because ninety so I'm music editor. I just remember that. 0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:03.520 Well. 0:50:03.520 --> 0:50:06.440 One, I just remember that it was you remember from 0:50:06.440 --> 0:50:08.400 the Bay Area, So I had been known about dealing 0:50:08.440 --> 0:50:11.600 with AIDS, probably in a closer proximity than a lot 0:50:11.680 --> 0:50:16.600 of people. It was very entwined in our lives, and 0:50:16.640 --> 0:50:21.759 so I don't know the tragedy of that man. And 0:50:21.800 --> 0:50:26.360 I will say this, I'm not even the biggest Easy 0:50:26.480 --> 0:50:30.000 E fan, but just as a human being, man, it 0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:33.000 was just too much. And also the way hip hop 0:50:33.080 --> 0:50:37.439 was dealing with it was crazy. That's what I really 0:50:37.440 --> 0:50:40.080 remember most about that. And I also remember just not 0:50:40.160 --> 0:50:42.520 liking the cover image or the design, which is rare 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:45.319 for me, which is rare because it doesn't really even 0:50:45.320 --> 0:50:49.640 look to me like a classic Vibe cover, which we 0:50:49.640 --> 0:50:52.640 were very meticulous about on most issues. But you also 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:54.960 gotta believe too. Again, I don't know even know if 0:50:54.960 --> 0:50:57.200 I was in those conversations, but I do know this, 0:50:58.000 --> 0:51:01.200 if Michael Jackson was involved in Michael Jackson had probably 0:51:01.239 --> 0:51:06.719 had final say on what the cover looked like. Because 0:51:06.719 --> 0:51:10.279 you understand too, and in that era, Quincy Jones had 0:51:10.320 --> 0:51:12.799 a lot more to do with the day to day 0:51:13.040 --> 0:51:17.560 than he did. By the time I became properly editor 0:51:17.600 --> 0:51:18.040 in chief. 0:51:18.160 --> 0:51:18.560 I don't know. 0:51:18.600 --> 0:51:21.400 I just was always just the impressions, like, okay, he 0:51:21.480 --> 0:51:24.600 started this magazine and I'll see y'all later. 0:51:25.280 --> 0:51:28.840 Oh but he was day to day No, okay, he was. 0:51:29.000 --> 0:51:32.440 He was not day to day, but he was like, 0:51:32.920 --> 0:51:35.800 if it had something to do with something that Quincy 0:51:35.880 --> 0:51:40.120 had something to do with, then mister Jones was involved. Absolutely. 0:51:40.719 --> 0:51:41.080 I don't know. 0:51:41.080 --> 0:51:42.919 I don't know if I talk about it in Shine Bright, 0:51:42.960 --> 0:51:50.040 but my first experience, so I did her Franklin and 0:51:50.080 --> 0:51:52.759 then let me not get my dates mixed up. But 0:51:52.840 --> 0:51:55.000 I feel like I was called to the phone and 0:51:55.080 --> 0:51:56.840 I was told that Quincy was on the phone with 0:51:56.920 --> 0:52:01.799 Joe Jackson because oh wow, because it was it was 0:52:02.040 --> 0:52:06.960 Janet had an album coming out and so we needed 0:52:06.960 --> 0:52:10.560 to get that together. And I was on the phone 0:52:10.600 --> 0:52:13.799 with Quincy and he is they've known each other since 0:52:13.840 --> 0:52:16.840 the dawn of time, and I was the sitting editor 0:52:16.840 --> 0:52:19.640 in chief, and I was just like, why am I 0:52:19.719 --> 0:52:25.399 even on the call? Hello? Yeah, And they were just yeah, 0:52:25.520 --> 0:52:27.719 just hash and stuff out. And then I was like, 0:52:29.960 --> 0:52:32.359 they asked me, like, who who should the writer be? 0:52:33.040 --> 0:52:36.080 They asked I think Joe asked Quincy that and then 0:52:36.160 --> 0:52:40.520 Quincy finally said, Damne, like this is your moment, like 0:52:41.000 --> 0:52:45.439 speak up, like this is your area or whatever. Yes, 0:52:45.640 --> 0:52:47.440 And I was like, well, you know, I think it 0:52:47.520 --> 0:52:53.840 should be me. And they were like, Joe was like, really, 0:52:54.920 --> 0:52:57.919 why I said, And I said, simple reasons. I said, 0:52:57.960 --> 0:53:01.280 because I saw her before at the Circle Star Theater 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:04.120 than Carlos, California when I was eight years old for 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:07.440 my birthday, so bo I probably had the longest relationship 0:53:07.520 --> 0:53:10.920 with her out of anybody here but y'all. And then also, 0:53:11.239 --> 0:53:14.799 we're both really pretty much the same age. We're both 0:53:14.880 --> 0:53:17.319 really black California girls at the end of the day. 0:53:18.000 --> 0:53:20.319 And I mean, we could go through the catalog thus far. 0:53:20.480 --> 0:53:22.520 We could go back to Dreams Street if you want to. 0:53:22.800 --> 0:53:25.960 We could do what you want to do. And so 0:53:26.040 --> 0:53:27.640 that's when Joe said, it seemed like you should be 0:53:27.680 --> 0:53:28.080 the person. 0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:29.960 Wow. 0:53:30.280 --> 0:53:31.920 I mean I probably my voice was a little bit 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:34.640 more shaky back at those times. Yes, let me not 0:53:34.680 --> 0:53:36.440 act like I was coming with all the like the 0:53:36.520 --> 0:53:39.440 all the full confidence. But it's just when Quincy Jones 0:53:39.680 --> 0:53:42.000 shoots you to Rondo Pass, it's like you better just 0:53:42.600 --> 0:53:44.200 act like Kevin Garna. 0:53:44.040 --> 0:53:44.239 Yeah. 0:53:45.520 --> 0:53:49.280 Yeah, So for Sean Bright, what was probably the most 0:53:49.400 --> 0:53:56.360 surprising revelation in constructing this and also was there anyone 0:53:56.400 --> 0:53:59.440 that you had to leave on the side of the 0:53:59.520 --> 0:54:01.520 road that you wanted to include. 0:54:01.760 --> 0:54:04.239 The most crazy thing to me about Seine Bright is 0:54:04.320 --> 0:54:08.319 just how much music comes out of segregated times. Oh 0:54:08.360 --> 0:54:12.120 my god, it's it just never would just cease to 0:54:12.239 --> 0:54:16.840 amaze me. And you keep thinking that as the decades 0:54:16.920 --> 0:54:18.560 go by, that it's going to be different, and then 0:54:18.560 --> 0:54:22.960 it just isn't. I mean, even if it's like somebody 0:54:23.000 --> 0:54:26.759 from younger than me who got bussed, you know what 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:31.200 I mean, and from a segregated situation. And I think 0:54:31.200 --> 0:54:34.560 people don't just talk about that enough. Like everyone decides 0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:36.400 like we're just all out here going to school together 0:54:36.440 --> 0:54:39.680 and you know, being friends together, and out of that 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:42.960 comes multi Out of that multicultural stew comes this amazing 0:54:42.960 --> 0:54:47.600 thing called pop. Well now, well, absolutely no. So that 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.920 was the fact that it just kept coming up, and 0:54:50.960 --> 0:54:53.359 I just got to be very nosy about it too. 0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:55.480 I wanted to know the details off and I'm like, 0:54:55.520 --> 0:54:59.279 so you're on the back of the bus, what's going on? 0:55:00.760 --> 0:55:01.040 Yeah. 0:55:01.280 --> 0:55:03.000 When you were talking to the Dixie Clubs at one time, 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:07.120 it seemed like one is the sisters was like, okay, Dan, they. 0:55:07.080 --> 0:55:10.120 Were but they got they really at first they were 0:55:10.360 --> 0:55:12.799 like mad at me, and then they really had to 0:55:12.880 --> 0:55:16.560 say you really don't know though. 0:55:16.960 --> 0:55:19.360 Because the fact that you dropped after that was something 0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:20.080 that I didn't know. 0:55:20.160 --> 0:55:20.520 You said. 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:22.680 The thing about the screen. 0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:24.480 Yeah, it was a metaphor. I didn't know. 0:55:24.480 --> 0:55:28.040 It's a screen, like an actual real hard screen with 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:31.040 peg holes, like it had pegs on it and then 0:55:31.080 --> 0:55:33.319 there were holes in the back of each seat and 0:55:33.400 --> 0:55:36.080 you could just move it and just put the screen 0:55:36.200 --> 0:55:38.920 up in the pegs. And they made them and they 0:55:38.960 --> 0:55:41.080 made and they made the black person do it. 0:55:42.239 --> 0:55:45.200 So basically there's there's a part in telling the Dixie 0:55:45.239 --> 0:55:47.680 Cup story which their single was going to the. 0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:51.120 Chapel single, number one, number one single, right. 0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:53.920 So there, I guess you could say the real first 0:55:54.000 --> 0:55:55.279 ring of of. 0:55:57.040 --> 0:55:57.239 Girl. 0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:01.960 I mean they. 0:56:01.760 --> 0:56:03.480 Let me do like they love me do out of 0:56:03.520 --> 0:56:03.960 number one. 0:56:04.040 --> 0:56:07.279 So the Dixie Cups is going to the Chapel Yes, 0:56:07.640 --> 0:56:10.480 you know, they're the first black group to to hit 0:56:10.600 --> 0:56:13.200 number one. Yes, And so she starts with them and 0:56:13.239 --> 0:56:17.120 they're telling a story about just segregation and bussing and whatnot, 0:56:17.239 --> 0:56:22.520 and the fact that customers and Bush writers would often 0:56:23.960 --> 0:56:28.520 tell and I'm saying, tell very lightly, uh, black people 0:56:28.560 --> 0:56:30.120 to move to the back of the bus, and they 0:56:30.160 --> 0:56:35.040 would put a I guess there is a disposable screen 0:56:35.080 --> 0:56:39.200 that you can put up, a movable screen, a movable screen. 0:56:39.040 --> 0:56:41.840 To it should have been in the same regulated place. 0:56:42.719 --> 0:56:45.440 I always thought, that's no, okay. So this is the 0:56:45.520 --> 0:56:48.759 thing that is what I thought. I always thought, and 0:56:48.760 --> 0:56:50.879 this is how you know that segregation never really gets 0:56:50.880 --> 0:56:53.480 discussed in detail. And I am committed always to not 0:56:53.640 --> 0:56:57.000 talking about black people or black women in summary, but 0:56:57.120 --> 0:57:01.359 in detail, because this is my thing. I always imagined 0:57:01.600 --> 0:57:04.319 that the bus was kind of split into like two 0:57:04.760 --> 0:57:08.040 like into thirds, and that the white people had the 0:57:08.080 --> 0:57:11.440 first two thirds and then the black people have the 0:57:11.520 --> 0:57:14.719 area like from the back door of the bus on. 0:57:16.080 --> 0:57:20.600 But see, no, this is what's crazy. They moved the goalpost. Essentially, 0:57:21.160 --> 0:57:25.080 the more white people that got on, the smaller the 0:57:25.160 --> 0:57:30.120 black area would get because this screen was movable. And 0:57:30.200 --> 0:57:33.680 I asked Rosalie Hawkins and Barbara Hawkins, I was like, 0:57:34.960 --> 0:57:38.880 so when would it be the driver or the people? 0:57:39.440 --> 0:57:43.600 And she said whichever, And then I said, would they 0:57:43.800 --> 0:57:48.240 ask you nicely? Or were they or were they mean? 0:57:49.200 --> 0:57:52.200 And this isn't New Orleans, Louisiana. And I told her, 0:57:52.240 --> 0:57:55.520 I said to her, I know I'm asking stupid questions, 0:57:55.560 --> 0:57:58.520 but I literally don't know. And she said, well, then 0:57:58.560 --> 0:58:01.400 I will tell you. The way they asked depended on 0:58:01.480 --> 0:58:02.360 the way they woke. 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:02.920 Up that morning. 0:58:04.200 --> 0:58:09.320 She did, and I said, we don't know how segregation 0:58:09.520 --> 0:58:13.200 really was functioning. It wasn't separate but equal. 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:14.680 It wasn't separate, but it. 0:58:14.600 --> 0:58:18.960 Was really going to the museum only on Tuesday mornings 0:58:19.040 --> 0:58:21.320 when black people were allowed and stuff like. It was 0:58:22.080 --> 0:58:26.360 really there's a thing I write about my grandmother telling 0:58:26.440 --> 0:58:29.160 me one time, my god, and we all know about 0:58:29.160 --> 0:58:32.880 these black nights. I mean, you know, we do the 0:58:32.960 --> 0:58:35.480 way my grandmother was just like, oh my god. You 0:58:35.520 --> 0:58:37.360 know how conceited you are as a girl when you're 0:58:37.360 --> 0:58:40.320 like nineteen or twenty and you think you're cute and 0:58:40.360 --> 0:58:44.040 you're really in the mirror and you really get that Messcara, right, 0:58:44.280 --> 0:58:47.959 this is before lashes and you're really the pre lash 0:58:48.000 --> 0:58:51.160 era and you're really what you're mabling getting right, and 0:58:51.200 --> 0:58:54.840 your grandmother's irritating you because your tights, your top is 0:58:54.880 --> 0:58:57.560 too tight and your skirt is too short. So my 0:58:57.600 --> 0:58:59.520 grandmother is really giving me that look, like, so where 0:58:59.520 --> 0:59:02.000 are we going? And I was like, I'm going to 0:59:02.040 --> 0:59:05.320 the spot, Grandma. It's like Thursday nights or Tuesday nights 0:59:05.360 --> 0:59:08.920 or whatever it was, and and she was like, oh, okay, 0:59:08.920 --> 0:59:11.920 where is it? I said, Grandma, it's just at this 0:59:12.000 --> 0:59:15.480 cool spot, like all the black people in Oakland get together. 0:59:15.680 --> 0:59:19.400 Like it's really weird. It's organic. It's just like we 0:59:19.520 --> 0:59:22.520 all just hang out there and it's just so cool. 0:59:22.520 --> 0:59:26.200 It's like a lounge and drinks is amazing. It'said, okay, 0:59:26.240 --> 0:59:29.040 where is it? And I told her the place. She said, oh, 0:59:29.040 --> 0:59:31.640 I know that place because my granda, my grandmother, is 0:59:31.640 --> 0:59:35.440 born and raised in Oakland. I said, Grandma, you could 0:59:35.520 --> 0:59:39.000 not know the place, like you're one hundred, I'm twenty. 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:43.840 Like stop, Grandma, I love you, but no, she said, ma'am, listen, 0:59:45.040 --> 0:59:47.520 we used to go to that place. And if it 0:59:47.560 --> 0:59:49.720 wasn't that place, it was owned by the same people. 0:59:50.000 --> 0:59:51.880 And the thing is we went there because that was 0:59:51.920 --> 0:59:53.720 the only night that we were allowed to go to 0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:58.480 that club. It wasn't it was like Tuesday nights, so 0:59:58.560 --> 0:59:59.840 we all had to get up to go to work 1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:02.560 morning on Wednesday, so we just had to go on 1:00:02.640 --> 1:00:05.160 Tuesday and on Saturday and Sunday and Friday, or on 1:00:05.240 --> 1:00:07.840 Friday and Saturday, when when it's a normal time for 1:00:07.880 --> 1:00:09.720 people to party. It was only white people that were 1:00:09.760 --> 1:00:14.040 allowed in there. So that's why she's like, yes, that's 1:00:14.040 --> 1:00:19.240 why it's organic mechanically on a Tuesday, that is that 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:23.080 is Black Nights. And so my grandma, I was like, 1:00:23.360 --> 1:00:25.720 I couldn't even have a good time at the set 1:00:25.840 --> 1:00:29.760 any more. I'm like, I'm living what. 1:00:30.160 --> 1:00:31.680 You blew my mind with that, because I was like, 1:00:31.720 --> 1:00:33.320 that's nationwide. 1:00:33.520 --> 1:00:37.080 There's always a week night. It's always on a weeknight. 1:00:37.240 --> 1:00:39.200 Black night is always on a weeknight. 1:00:40.480 --> 1:00:42.400 You're you're right about that. 1:00:42.560 --> 1:00:46.800 And yeah, when I love writing about I love writing 1:00:46.840 --> 1:00:51.560 about like I said, specifics, and I like writing about culture, 1:00:51.560 --> 1:00:53.880 and I like writing about something and powers who's ahead 1:00:53.880 --> 1:00:57.240 of music at MPR and was music editor s F 1:00:57.280 --> 1:00:59.400 Weekly and I became music edit of SF Week San 1:00:59.440 --> 1:01:04.160 Francisco right after and and really handheld me into that job. 1:01:04.440 --> 1:01:08.640 And something that Anne taught me was this is back 1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:11.800 in the nineteen ninety one nineteen ninety two, she said, 1:01:11.840 --> 1:01:14.280 no one's writing about people are writing about hip hop 1:01:14.280 --> 1:01:18.120 as a music no one's writing about the scene and 1:01:18.200 --> 1:01:22.240 what the scene is like. And I was enraptured by that, 1:01:22.280 --> 1:01:25.960 and I still am. I still am. I take notes 1:01:25.960 --> 1:01:28.600 in my head on a pad or on my notes 1:01:28.680 --> 1:01:32.360 app when I'm out, just because the scene matters. It matters, 1:01:32.360 --> 1:01:37.040 it's culture, and that Tuesday night thing is the scene. 1:01:40.240 --> 1:01:45.240 So in your history, what will you say is your 1:01:45.320 --> 1:01:47.040 three definitive pieces of work. 1:01:47.440 --> 1:01:50.120 One of the most important pieces to me, and one 1:01:50.160 --> 1:01:53.080 that continually gets good notice from people, is the piece 1:01:53.160 --> 1:01:55.280 that I wrote as the forward to the collection of 1:01:56.440 --> 1:01:59.640 essays about Chupac Shakr that if I put together in 1:01:59.680 --> 1:02:02.240 a book called tubakshak Kor, and you can find it 1:02:02.280 --> 1:02:05.800 at just google New York Times Daniel Smith tupakshak Or, 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:09.960 And it's about a forty five hundred word piece that 1:02:10.040 --> 1:02:13.960 basically just takes his career and life into consideration. And 1:02:14.000 --> 1:02:17.080 so that is one for me. The second one is 1:02:17.120 --> 1:02:19.480 for much later in my career. Six years ago, I 1:02:19.520 --> 1:02:22.320 think now, I wrote a piece for ESPN, the magazine 1:02:22.320 --> 1:02:26.160 about Whitney Houston singing the national anthem at Super Bowl. 1:02:26.560 --> 1:02:29.240 I just really felt like, and my editor really felt like, 1:02:29.280 --> 1:02:33.880 and in fairness ESPN really felt like it hadn't really 1:02:33.920 --> 1:02:39.840 been written about at the intersection of culture sport and 1:02:40.800 --> 1:02:45.240 just like American history. I put so much work into 1:02:45.240 --> 1:02:48.240 that Whitney Houston piece and it paid off in won awards. 1:02:48.240 --> 1:02:53.640 Like it's really one of my favorite pieces probably that 1:02:54.200 --> 1:02:58.240 I ever wrote. And you know, I think I'm very 1:02:58.280 --> 1:02:59.760 smart in that piece. 1:03:00.640 --> 1:03:02.480 Can you give a summary of that, because I'm curious. 1:03:02.880 --> 1:03:05.760 It's just very about Whitney Houston putting the entire country 1:03:05.800 --> 1:03:09.280 on her bag because war had just been declared. This 1:03:09.440 --> 1:03:12.480 was in the pre security era and Super Bowl was 1:03:12.480 --> 1:03:15.280 a soft target. So I wrote about everything. I wrote 1:03:15.280 --> 1:03:17.000 about what was going on with the war. I wrote 1:03:17.000 --> 1:03:19.320 about what was going on with the NFL commissioner. I 1:03:19.320 --> 1:03:22.240 wrote about her pre recording the song. I wrote about 1:03:22.520 --> 1:03:27.800 the I covered her performance in a second by seconds way. 1:03:28.160 --> 1:03:32.120 I covered every single second of her performance, and that's 1:03:32.160 --> 1:03:34.880 what I wanted for my conclusion, and that's what we had. 1:03:35.400 --> 1:03:37.400 And I just talk about her at the end, just 1:03:38.000 --> 1:03:40.200 you know, with the with the what do they call it, 1:03:40.240 --> 1:03:43.880 the fighter pilots or whatever, the jet planes or whatever, 1:03:44.160 --> 1:03:47.720 the military planes going off her head, and really, to me, 1:03:47.800 --> 1:03:50.960 I was trying to say how inappropriate, it is, but 1:03:51.040 --> 1:03:53.280 the way she sings free is so important to me. 1:03:53.680 --> 1:03:57.040 How she owned that word in that in the Star 1:03:57.080 --> 1:04:00.400 Spangled banner. So many singers run from that word. Are 1:04:00.440 --> 1:04:05.000 they shorten that lyric? And Whitney put a whole curly 1:04:05.080 --> 1:04:08.640 qu at the end of it. She went up higher 1:04:08.640 --> 1:04:12.200 than she even normally goes. She went up into Mariah's 1:04:12.240 --> 1:04:15.600 territory at that moment. She stood there in an at 1:04:15.720 --> 1:04:20.560 ease like kind of stance. She was in a sweatsuit. 1:04:20.640 --> 1:04:26.360 When do you see what do you sit in a sweatsuit? Yes, 1:04:26.560 --> 1:04:28.960 and she had a headband and some Nike corteses. I 1:04:29.080 --> 1:04:30.080 was like, who is that lady? 1:04:30.640 --> 1:04:38.480 To me, you're ninety five Kel's piece, which. 1:04:38.280 --> 1:04:41.920 We'll see that's blocked. 1:04:41.920 --> 1:04:43.960 But you're like the one that literally broke the story. 1:04:44.120 --> 1:04:46.480 Yes, we did. It was it was a team effort, 1:04:46.480 --> 1:04:46.880 but we did. 1:04:46.960 --> 1:04:48.960 Yes, Okay, I didn't know what's the team effort. 1:04:49.000 --> 1:04:51.720 The team effort comes in I'm on the road with 1:04:51.840 --> 1:04:55.800 Dana Luxemburg. We're chasing him down. But the reporting of 1:04:56.520 --> 1:04:59.680 Dana Luxemburg's a photographer that shot him for the cover. 1:05:00.080 --> 1:05:02.920 The cover it is, And I'm happy you brought that up. Honestly, 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:07.280 because because really the headline is for all time, the sex, 1:05:07.440 --> 1:05:10.720 the soul, the sales, and the scandalous marriage to teenage 1:05:10.760 --> 1:05:14.200 superstar Alia. And the thing that made it what it 1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:17.160 was was the fact that Dana got the shot. I 1:05:17.200 --> 1:05:21.760 got the story, and Robert was so awful that day 1:05:22.360 --> 1:05:26.240 and we didn't even know what we didn't know at 1:05:26.240 --> 1:05:30.280 that time. And so me and Dana are on the road. 1:05:30.400 --> 1:05:33.240 This is Allanson and Me and Dana Lixemburg on the road. 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:37.920 Dana shot so many great shots of low Kim Chupac Shakor. 1:05:38.720 --> 1:05:42.440 But so our goal is we got to get the story, 1:05:42.520 --> 1:05:45.280 and we need him to speak. And also I got 1:05:45.320 --> 1:05:48.800 to report. I gotta find his teacher. I gotta find 1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:51.080 you know, I got to interview all types of people. 1:05:53.080 --> 1:05:54.960 His bodyguard let me in. We were at the what 1:05:55.120 --> 1:05:57.360 was it, what was it called the arena and Philly 1:05:57.400 --> 1:06:00.720 Beck then the Spectrum or therum, the spectrum, so I'm 1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:04.400 in the bowels of the spectrum. It wasn't Fuzzy, but 1:06:04.480 --> 1:06:07.720 it was another radio DJ that when I saw him, 1:06:08.160 --> 1:06:10.400 he was It wasn't Fuzzy, but it was somebody that 1:06:10.440 --> 1:06:13.240 reminds me of Fuzzy. And they were standing on stage 1:06:13.280 --> 1:06:16.120 in soundcheck that we had snuck into, and I told 1:06:16.200 --> 1:06:18.800 him my situation and he was like, you can have 1:06:18.840 --> 1:06:19.880 my backstage fast. 1:06:20.120 --> 1:06:25.000 I never like if that was cosmic kass right, And 1:06:25.080 --> 1:06:27.480 I was like, man, you making my whole life. 1:06:28.080 --> 1:06:34.040 You were doing the story and you weren't officially traveling 1:06:34.080 --> 1:06:35.240 with the camp. 1:06:35.160 --> 1:06:37.360 Not at all. We got on Amtrak from New York 1:06:37.400 --> 1:06:42.280 to the filling and they weren't super No. They were 1:06:42.320 --> 1:06:46.920 literally signs up backstage at the Spectrum that said, if 1:06:46.920 --> 1:06:51.040 you see anybody from Vibe here, escort them off the premises. 1:06:52.040 --> 1:06:52.480 Wow. 1:06:52.560 --> 1:06:54.920 Wow, And so we were like wow what. He just 1:06:54.920 --> 1:06:58.920 felt like public enemy number one because we had a 1:06:59.080 --> 1:07:01.040 story on the This was my thing when I was 1:07:01.120 --> 1:07:03.680 at by music editor or editor in chief. If you 1:07:03.760 --> 1:07:06.520 said you were gonna do it, I'm holding you to 1:07:06.560 --> 1:07:10.000 your word like I really believed that. And it was 1:07:10.160 --> 1:07:13.400 very childish almost the way I would really hold on 1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:15.920 to that like I would. My thing was very much 1:07:15.960 --> 1:07:17.480 like you promised no. 1:07:17.600 --> 1:07:17.640 No. 1:07:17.680 --> 1:07:20.880 A person could be like yes, but I know somebody 1:07:20.880 --> 1:07:22.600 can easily be like my fingers are crossed when I 1:07:22.640 --> 1:07:26.680 said it, like that's how, that's how, but that's how. 1:07:26.800 --> 1:07:28.840 That's how serious. I was about it though, I was 1:07:28.880 --> 1:07:30.720 just very like, no, they promised, so they're going to 1:07:30.760 --> 1:07:34.800 be held to that, and so Jive and and and 1:07:34.800 --> 1:07:38.520 and mister Kelly had promised we were doing this cover 1:07:38.560 --> 1:07:41.840 story and then because the Aliyah stuff broke, then they 1:07:41.880 --> 1:07:46.120 said no. So my thing is no. Then we're gonna 1:07:46.160 --> 1:07:48.280 find you and we are going to get the story. 1:07:48.920 --> 1:07:51.360 I'm gonna come to Philly and I'm gonna figure something out. 1:07:51.400 --> 1:07:53.600 If I have to interview everybody in Philly, how do 1:07:53.640 --> 1:07:56.560 you feel about this concept in this situation, I'm going 1:07:56.600 --> 1:07:58.760 to do it. If Danta has to shoot you with 1:07:58.800 --> 1:08:01.440 the telephoto limbs from the back at the stadium, then 1:08:01.480 --> 1:08:04.040 that's what we're gonna do. But the thing is he 1:08:04.040 --> 1:08:08.840 he let us in because of Dana. Dana's beautiful woman, 1:08:09.000 --> 1:08:13.160 white woman from South Africa and very just low key 1:08:13.240 --> 1:08:17.080 with it, very very not like giving you sex, not 1:08:17.240 --> 1:08:20.880 very not giving you sexy, but just giving you like Frank, 1:08:21.080 --> 1:08:25.759 you know what, this disarming disarming so so so Robert 1:08:25.760 --> 1:08:27.599 said she could come in. 1:08:28.080 --> 1:08:29.000 That's because you. 1:08:30.479 --> 1:08:34.880 Right, listen, listen. I appreciate that. I'm sorry, but listen. 1:08:35.000 --> 1:08:41.719 So then Dana said, because we were really ganggang Dana said, okay, 1:08:41.760 --> 1:08:48.479 but I'm not coming in without Danielle. So then Robert said, 1:08:49.400 --> 1:08:52.519 if you because he knew I was. I had covered 1:08:52.560 --> 1:08:54.880 him before. I had been in London with him all 1:08:54.920 --> 1:08:57.840 types of stuff on junkets as people used to do 1:08:57.880 --> 1:09:01.080 back in those days. So he said, you can come in, 1:09:01.120 --> 1:09:04.960 but you can't write anything down with a he said, 1:09:05.040 --> 1:09:09.880 with a pin. Okay, okay, but see I had a pencil. 1:09:10.240 --> 1:09:15.320 So it was like a man. Listen. It was so crazy. 1:09:16.040 --> 1:09:18.680 I can't even tell you how crazy that was. But 1:09:18.720 --> 1:09:21.839 what I'm saying, why was such a team effort aside 1:09:21.840 --> 1:09:24.280 from the fact that I had Allan advising me, that 1:09:24.400 --> 1:09:27.800 Dana had George Pitts, the photo director, advising her because 1:09:27.840 --> 1:09:30.559 we didn't know what to do. Also, you guys got 1:09:30.560 --> 1:09:36.559 to remember we were kids. I was twenty eight. I 1:09:36.880 --> 1:09:40.320 was a child, like I mean I was. I was 1:09:40.680 --> 1:09:44.320 young in the game, but was just on it. And 1:09:44.400 --> 1:09:48.679 so while Alan was advising me and George Pitts, who's 1:09:48.720 --> 1:09:54.040 gone now God blessed dead, was advising Dana, then Carter 1:09:54.200 --> 1:09:58.600 Harris and Rob Kenner and the whole Vibe team was 1:09:58.640 --> 1:10:03.040 back there trying to find him. Mayor that was the goal. 1:10:03.160 --> 1:10:06.800 That was set and we refused not to meet that challenge. 1:10:07.160 --> 1:10:08.400 Wow, how do you do that? 1:10:08.400 --> 1:10:09.840 That's what I might say, how do you do that? 1:10:09.920 --> 1:10:10.800 In ninety five? 1:10:11.760 --> 1:10:14.840 Let me tell yourself that it was work and we 1:10:14.880 --> 1:10:20.479 had we had contacts, We were reporters, We knew people, 1:10:20.520 --> 1:10:23.280 who knew people who knew people. I mean, we were 1:10:23.320 --> 1:10:27.200 the ones that reported the fact that how Aleiah climbed 1:10:27.200 --> 1:10:29.479 out of the window and got with the bodyguards and 1:10:29.520 --> 1:10:31.800 they got on a private plane down to Florida, Like 1:10:32.360 --> 1:10:34.559 this is because we know people who know people. 1:10:34.960 --> 1:10:37.080 Yes, you guys have to be Google. 1:10:37.960 --> 1:10:40.439 We had to be and so and so Carter and 1:10:40.479 --> 1:10:43.519 then found that mairor certificate and we ran it. And 1:10:43.640 --> 1:10:46.599 that's also another one of those to go back quest. 1:10:46.600 --> 1:10:48.360 So what you were talking about with the rest of development, 1:10:48.640 --> 1:10:52.720 that was another time when people said, oh, Vibe is serious, 1:10:53.040 --> 1:10:57.479 because you got to understand. I remember to see one 1:10:57.479 --> 1:11:00.840 of the higher upset Vibe calling me either on that 1:11:01.040 --> 1:11:02.760 issue or the next time we put him on the 1:11:02.800 --> 1:11:06.160 cover when we had even more evidence about his doings. 1:11:06.560 --> 1:11:08.680 I remember just putting it on a speaker and just 1:11:08.760 --> 1:11:12.040 allowing people to walk into my office hearing that man 1:11:12.120 --> 1:11:16.920 call me. Every type of bi tch lowlife, who re 1:11:18.120 --> 1:11:22.160 Vibe being fish Wrap Vibe being? I was leading, who 1:11:22.240 --> 1:11:23.160 is this? 1:11:22.760 --> 1:11:23.439 This is? 1:11:23.720 --> 1:11:27.000 This is like someone very high up at Jive Records. 1:11:27.600 --> 1:11:29.000 Does he still have a job? Does he to have 1:11:29.000 --> 1:11:31.200 a job to have a job, Yes, he does. So 1:11:31.320 --> 1:11:33.839 I'm just sailing. And then I remember too that Robert 1:11:33.880 --> 1:11:37.320 was saying he was going to sue Vive. He was 1:11:37.360 --> 1:11:41.120 going on I guess it was hot ninety seven saying that, 1:11:41.680 --> 1:11:44.880 and I went on the radio because they'd be like, well, 1:11:44.880 --> 1:11:46.639 do you want to respond? This is how the internet 1:11:46.760 --> 1:11:49.559 used to work in the pre Internet era. And I 1:11:49.680 --> 1:11:53.040 was like, I'll take that, babe. And I went up 1:11:53.080 --> 1:11:54.720 there and they were like, well, are you concerned that 1:11:55.280 --> 1:11:57.840 you guys are going to get sued? And Robert Kelly 1:11:57.840 --> 1:11:59.840 said he's going to put Vibe out of business? And 1:12:00.120 --> 1:12:01.519 I said, what was in true? I used to feel 1:12:01.560 --> 1:12:05.240 so confident in our which people don't have anymore in journalism. 1:12:05.479 --> 1:12:07.920 I used to feel confident in our reporting. I used 1:12:07.960 --> 1:12:10.680 to feel confident in our fact checking, and I used 1:12:10.680 --> 1:12:13.400 to feel confident in the fact that every single solitary 1:12:13.400 --> 1:12:16.720 page of Bob magazine went by lawyers before it went 1:12:16.760 --> 1:12:19.280 to press. Every single month that I was ever working 1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:22.360 there as music editor or editor in chief. So my 1:12:22.479 --> 1:12:24.839 thing was I was able to say on the radio, 1:12:25.320 --> 1:12:28.800 I think that he's just like profiling, as we used 1:12:28.840 --> 1:12:32.920 to say in Oakland. He's just side busting because if 1:12:32.960 --> 1:12:37.920 he wanted to sue, then he would, but he would 1:12:38.040 --> 1:12:40.120 have to prove one that we were wrong in too, 1:12:40.160 --> 1:12:43.200 that we had malicious intent, and we have neither. 1:12:43.680 --> 1:12:46.519 So when you run that piece about you know, him 1:12:46.800 --> 1:12:49.160 doing all the abuse and just all the fuck shit, 1:12:49.640 --> 1:12:52.040 how do you then reconcile when it's time to review 1:12:52.120 --> 1:12:53.360 his next album? 1:12:53.840 --> 1:12:58.160 So I was there for two stories, two cover stories 1:12:58.160 --> 1:13:03.120 of our healing, and I don't I mean, the short 1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:07.280 answer is, I don't know what we actually did. I 1:13:07.280 --> 1:13:10.200 would have to look at the timeline, but if I 1:13:10.240 --> 1:13:13.840 had to guess, I would say that the discussion went 1:13:13.960 --> 1:13:17.799 like this, And this is purely me guessing. The record 1:13:17.880 --> 1:13:23.360 is coming out. He hasn't been convicted of anything, and 1:13:23.400 --> 1:13:26.559 so we have to cover it. I'm not saying that 1:13:26.560 --> 1:13:29.920 that is what happened, but just knowing how things tended 1:13:29.920 --> 1:13:33.320 to happen when I was there, that sounds like the 1:13:33.360 --> 1:13:36.240 way a conversation might have gone. 1:13:36.479 --> 1:13:39.760 Do you think that's how it should in twenty twenty two, 1:13:39.800 --> 1:13:42.639 with all the lenses. Is that how the conversation should 1:13:42.680 --> 1:13:43.000 still go. 1:13:43.360 --> 1:13:47.599 I think once a person is convicted of something, then 1:13:47.800 --> 1:13:52.840 the conversation changes because a thing too particular too the 1:13:52.840 --> 1:13:57.800 black community is this, There's so many times when black 1:13:57.800 --> 1:13:59.880 people are accused of things that they did not do. 1:14:00.960 --> 1:14:05.439 There's so many times in history where people are Black 1:14:05.479 --> 1:14:09.000 people was getting canceled before canceling was a word because 1:14:09.479 --> 1:14:12.160 of things that they did, I mean things that they 1:14:12.200 --> 1:14:15.800 didn't do. And so we also had to walk a 1:14:15.920 --> 1:14:19.200 very fine line of like, well, what do we know, 1:14:20.479 --> 1:14:23.200 what has what is legally I remember there was a 1:14:23.240 --> 1:14:26.400 whole thing at Vibe that that happens at all places 1:14:26.439 --> 1:14:29.960 of reputable places of journalism, is that you can't just 1:14:30.000 --> 1:14:34.640 go around saying that someone was murdered before there is 1:14:34.680 --> 1:14:37.280 a conviction. To that point, you have to say that 1:14:37.320 --> 1:14:39.799 they were killed killed. 1:14:39.880 --> 1:14:42.160 Yeah, murder is murder is. 1:14:42.120 --> 1:14:46.200 A legal term. It's a legal term, and so these 1:14:46.200 --> 1:14:46.400 are that. 1:14:46.520 --> 1:14:48.880 So you would have to say Stupak is killed. You 1:14:48.920 --> 1:14:50.920 couldn't say that it was a murder. You could not 1:14:51.120 --> 1:14:53.799 until well I'm being hypothetical when I asked, yes. 1:14:53.640 --> 1:14:57.320 But but yes, yes, And I do believe if you 1:14:57.400 --> 1:15:00.800 go back, you will see that I remember that being 1:15:00.840 --> 1:15:04.200 struck out of many a piece that he was, that 1:15:04.280 --> 1:15:08.439 he was not murdered until someone had been convicted of 1:15:08.520 --> 1:15:16.240 having murdered him. 1:15:16.439 --> 1:15:20.719 In your I guess, in your your tenure there, who 1:15:21.400 --> 1:15:25.719 were some of the writers that you helped usher into 1:15:25.760 --> 1:15:30.240 the game? People that kind of started off as interned 1:15:30.240 --> 1:15:32.440 to it now, like, man, listen. 1:15:32.240 --> 1:15:33.639 Look at your phone, look at your phone. 1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:36.200 I know at first, well, let me just say this, 1:15:36.360 --> 1:15:38.840 I don't know who all I ushered in, but I 1:15:38.920 --> 1:15:42.320 do know that I've worked with some amazing people. I mean, 1:15:43.760 --> 1:15:46.240 when I got there, you know, Allan and Jonathan van 1:15:46.320 --> 1:15:50.880 Meder had already hired people like Joan Morgan, who's doctor 1:15:50.920 --> 1:15:55.360 Joan Morgan now, Scot Scott Polson, Brian who's doctor Scott Pulsing, 1:15:55.400 --> 1:16:01.160 Bryan now, people like that, like okay, and then when 1:16:01.160 --> 1:16:05.679 I when I got there, I mean, Karen Rene Good Marrable, 1:16:06.320 --> 1:16:06.960 I was gonna. 1:16:06.800 --> 1:16:12.440 Say, Karen Good was just starting out like she was 1:16:13.760 --> 1:16:15.639 as I did. 1:16:15.960 --> 1:16:17.640 I mean, Karen and I are girlfriends. Karen was at 1:16:17.640 --> 1:16:20.040 my wedding, Like that's how you know we're girlfriends? Like 1:16:20.080 --> 1:16:24.360 that so obviously Karen Good Marrable, who writes a lot 1:16:24.439 --> 1:16:27.600 now so much beautiful stuff for the Oxford American, but 1:16:27.680 --> 1:16:34.640 also Sasha Jenkins, Jeff mal also I think, yeah, I 1:16:34.640 --> 1:16:36.360 always gotta be careful talking about who I get a 1:16:36.439 --> 1:16:41.519 start to, right, yes, but but no, Rockelcipated definitely is 1:16:41.520 --> 1:16:43.760 the genius. And she wrote for a Vibe when I 1:16:43.840 --> 1:16:47.799 was there. And also that's I met Elliott Wilson, my husband, 1:16:49.160 --> 1:16:51.959 and then I signed him his first Vibe record review also. 1:16:53.680 --> 1:16:54.639 First five record review. 1:16:54.680 --> 1:16:59.559 You remember, no, but he was he does, but but 1:16:59.640 --> 1:17:02.120 there was way before we started dating. I was actually married. 1:17:02.160 --> 1:17:04.400 Elliot's my second husband. In case people don't know. 1:17:04.400 --> 1:17:05.320 No, really didn't. 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:09.519 How long was your first your first short and sweet? Nice? 1:17:09.800 --> 1:17:10.479 How old were you? 1:17:11.040 --> 1:17:13.240 I got married at like twenty two? 1:17:13.120 --> 1:17:15.280 Oh yeah that was yeah? 1:17:15.560 --> 1:17:17.920 Is it hard when well, I mean at one point 1:17:17.960 --> 1:17:22.599 both of you were editor in chiefs of Competing. We 1:17:22.600 --> 1:17:27.679 were so because you guys were married and you're editor 1:17:27.680 --> 1:17:32.280 in chief of Competing not had Phil McCoy level. 1:17:32.720 --> 1:17:36.800 It was competition, it was yeah. So how does that work? 1:17:36.920 --> 1:17:40.400 Like how do you find what separation of church and 1:17:40.479 --> 1:17:43.479 state when both of you are fishing for like the 1:17:43.560 --> 1:17:44.280 same story. 1:17:44.640 --> 1:17:47.559 Well, we had a history of it already. Elliott want 1:17:47.640 --> 1:17:50.320 to become when we were back when we were just colleagues, 1:17:51.640 --> 1:17:54.040 Elliott stopped writing for Vibe and he went on to 1:17:54.040 --> 1:17:58.080 become music editor of the Source. All right, So I 1:17:58.160 --> 1:18:02.519 was feeling competitive at that time before we ever were dating. 1:18:03.560 --> 1:18:08.200 So but I had to respect the skill. 1:18:07.920 --> 1:18:12.160 Set and sounds like that's one of y'all love languages. 1:18:12.600 --> 1:18:15.080 Yeah, and then when I was when I was in 1:18:15.120 --> 1:18:16.840 grad school by this time, he was at it in 1:18:16.880 --> 1:18:19.559 chief of XXCEL and this was around the time when 1:18:19.600 --> 1:18:22.760 we started dating. I had to respect it. Like that's 1:18:22.760 --> 1:18:24.400 when he put a feenie on the cover, and that 1:18:24.520 --> 1:18:28.960 was just such a courageous moment, like I could only 1:18:29.000 --> 1:18:31.000 I wasn't even like we weren't even in each other's 1:18:31.000 --> 1:18:32.760 phones during it. I didn't even know if we had 1:18:32.800 --> 1:18:35.960 phones back then. But I just remember saying to people, like, 1:18:36.040 --> 1:18:39.320 I know he had to fight to get that done. 1:18:38.920 --> 1:18:41.120 I know what that fight must have been like. And 1:18:41.160 --> 1:18:44.160 I respected it. So then when we got married, I 1:18:44.360 --> 1:18:49.120 was in grad school, so and it's like a nine 1:18:49.200 --> 1:18:51.519 ten months after we were married where I went back 1:18:51.560 --> 1:18:55.880 to Vibe and we went into it real really very 1:18:55.920 --> 1:18:59.160 willy nilly. We thought it was going to be very 1:18:59.280 --> 1:19:06.080 easy to man, it's just facient and after and after 1:19:06.200 --> 1:19:09.120 our first issues. I don't know if people know my husband, 1:19:09.160 --> 1:19:16.880 but he's not known for like his calm and it's 1:19:16.920 --> 1:19:19.519 such a it's such as such a sweetheart. But he's 1:19:19.600 --> 1:19:22.320 just not really known for, you know, taking things lightly. 1:19:22.360 --> 1:19:23.920 He's a very passionate individual. 1:19:24.000 --> 1:19:25.439 So he found him down. 1:19:25.880 --> 1:19:29.960 I will say the Elliott now is way more calm, 1:19:29.400 --> 1:19:34.240 and I actually credit that to you because just his 1:19:34.720 --> 1:19:39.080 his nerdy ego trip like days of yeah. 1:19:38.960 --> 1:19:40.880 Yeah, those are my guys, though all of them tore 1:19:40.920 --> 1:19:44.320 one but it's like but but no, So we really 1:19:44.360 --> 1:19:47.439 after the first issue, it just was bad, like the 1:19:47.520 --> 1:19:53.080 way things went down. Yeah, and so and also you 1:19:53.120 --> 1:19:56.240 have to understand that we had staffs of people that 1:19:57.520 --> 1:19:59.960 Elliott the whole staff of people that already believed in him, 1:20:00.280 --> 1:20:03.439 and I was a brand new second time editor in 1:20:03.479 --> 1:20:06.800 chief of Vibe that wanted a staff to believe in me. 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:11.160 So we had to establish some as we call them 1:20:11.160 --> 1:20:14.240 back then, the rules and regulations and some times and conditions. 1:20:14.240 --> 1:20:15.639 Come on, now, you got to give us a couple 1:20:16.280 --> 1:20:18.080 I got to know, well, I. 1:20:18.040 --> 1:20:20.519 Mean if I'm honest. The main one was just that 1:20:21.160 --> 1:20:26.600 you could not discuss in any way at home anything 1:20:26.920 --> 1:20:30.720 that was going on with the issue at work. But 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:33.599 you could say somebody was getting on your nerves or 1:20:34.320 --> 1:20:36.320 I don't know why they don't have Coca colas and 1:20:36.360 --> 1:20:39.519 the refrigerator at work, but you couldn't. You couldn't come 1:20:39.520 --> 1:20:41.400 home and say, like, I'm really trying to get this 1:20:41.479 --> 1:20:42.519 cover with a B or C. 1:20:42.840 --> 1:20:45.240 No, gotcha, got you, gotcha? 1:20:45.400 --> 1:20:45.960 Let me ask. 1:20:46.760 --> 1:20:51.280 Only because again, like you and him are to me 1:20:51.360 --> 1:20:56.760 the most courageous power couple of journalism, only because both 1:20:56.800 --> 1:20:59.760 of you had your feet in the fire again at 1:20:59.760 --> 1:21:05.200 a time time in which and I'm using more hyperbole 1:21:05.240 --> 1:21:09.519 when I say dangerous, I'll say more like exciting times, 1:21:09.800 --> 1:21:14.000 but I'll also say serious times. Like you you were, 1:21:14.320 --> 1:21:17.439 you were definitely around during like the what they would 1:21:17.439 --> 1:21:21.680 call the danger era of the East and West thing. 1:21:21.840 --> 1:21:25.000 But you know, for also him as as a wife, 1:21:25.560 --> 1:21:29.519 were you concerned about his situation at the source, because 1:21:30.360 --> 1:21:34.360 he too was sort of in a word pickled situation. 1:21:36.800 --> 1:21:39.760 I mean, he was at XXL at that time, but yeah. 1:21:39.600 --> 1:21:43.639 Right, and like, was there just any just general worry 1:21:43.680 --> 1:21:49.240 for safety coming for your end, like, Okay, don't don't 1:21:49.280 --> 1:21:51.880 write that op ed because you know good and well 1:21:51.960 --> 1:21:54.519 that this is gonna or for you. It's just like 1:21:55.320 --> 1:21:57.800 Church and State were never talking about what our work 1:21:57.880 --> 1:21:59.800 is and bringing it into the home. 1:22:00.120 --> 1:22:03.280 When Elliott was going through the most terrible stuff, we 1:22:03.280 --> 1:22:07.280 were not dating. We weren't. Okay, yeah, we weren't. We 1:22:07.320 --> 1:22:09.519 started dating at the I think the end of three. 1:22:09.600 --> 1:22:11.599 But let me not let me not put too fun 1:22:11.640 --> 1:22:15.960 a point on it, because Elliot. Elliott was away in 1:22:16.000 --> 1:22:17.599 the streets at the time when we were dating. 1:22:17.640 --> 1:22:21.559 So just for our listeners, Elliott was at Exxcel right 1:22:21.720 --> 1:22:26.320 during the height of I guess the Eminem versus ben 1:22:26.400 --> 1:22:30.760 Zeno wars, and. 1:22:30.040 --> 1:22:32.480 It would get very serious, very serious. 1:22:33.320 --> 1:22:35.040 As I said, at the time, when he was going 1:22:35.080 --> 1:22:37.240 through the very worst of it. We weren't dating. I 1:22:37.320 --> 1:22:40.960 knew him at I knew him as a as a colleague. 1:22:41.160 --> 1:22:45.559 And you know, there's a certain scene of writers and 1:22:45.600 --> 1:22:48.320 stuch in New York at that time, Black writers and 1:22:48.320 --> 1:22:49.840 stuff where we all kind of knew each other, would 1:22:49.840 --> 1:22:51.280 see each other out and that kind of thing. And 1:22:51.760 --> 1:22:53.519 I always knew Elliott, like I said, he used to 1:22:53.520 --> 1:22:55.719 write for me when I was a music editor at Vibe, 1:22:55.720 --> 1:22:58.160 and he was always supportive of me. I remember when 1:22:58.160 --> 1:22:59.960 my book came out and Know Three, my first novel, 1:23:00.479 --> 1:23:02.880 he came into because he was bawling. He came into 1:23:02.880 --> 1:23:05.680 Barnes and Noble, brought like fifteen books and he was 1:23:05.760 --> 1:23:08.439 just you know, he was that type of dude. But 1:23:08.760 --> 1:23:12.759 even from Afar and through my friends on the scene 1:23:12.800 --> 1:23:15.760 and people who were publicists and other writers, I mean, 1:23:15.800 --> 1:23:18.559 they would say that Elliott was going through it. You know, 1:23:19.160 --> 1:23:21.920 people that saw him. I mean, these are his stories 1:23:21.920 --> 1:23:24.960 to tell, but people that saw him more than I did. 1:23:26.800 --> 1:23:28.720 And I also know, just now being his wife for 1:23:28.760 --> 1:23:31.760 these many years, you know, the health issues and stuff 1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:34.600 that came out of that era, like it's you know, 1:23:34.640 --> 1:23:37.360 stuff that he still manages to this day. So I mean, 1:23:37.400 --> 1:23:39.679 he's a brave dude though, but none of us are 1:23:39.720 --> 1:23:44.160 like superhuman, you know, and there was some real scary 1:23:44.240 --> 1:23:46.280 stuff that we all went through. Some of it is 1:23:46.320 --> 1:23:49.920 in Shine Bright were just you know, threats were made 1:23:50.040 --> 1:23:53.400 and it's like I remember my mom coming to see 1:23:53.840 --> 1:23:56.719 me in New York from California, and she really did, 1:23:56.720 --> 1:23:59.200 but she did a couple of times, and she's at 1:23:59.240 --> 1:24:01.320 the office and I was just going about the business 1:24:01.320 --> 1:24:05.479 of my day. And then she said, like, who is 1:24:05.520 --> 1:24:08.360 this how it always is? And I was like what 1:24:09.640 --> 1:24:11.000 And she was like, just the way you're it was 1:24:11.040 --> 1:24:12.800 a different error. She's like, just the way you're talking 1:24:12.840 --> 1:24:14.439 to people. I said, how am I talking to people? 1:24:14.880 --> 1:24:18.240 She's like just cursing and stuff. And I was like, 1:24:18.280 --> 1:24:22.120 am I cursing? She's like, yes, you're cursing a lot 1:24:22.400 --> 1:24:25.639 on the phone to people. And I was like, that's 1:24:25.640 --> 1:24:27.320 because people are trying to back out of the things 1:24:27.360 --> 1:24:29.200 that they said they were going to do. That's because 1:24:29.240 --> 1:24:33.160 of this. That's because of that. And my mother said, Okay, 1:24:33.160 --> 1:24:34.720 but like are you running to stab or are you 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:38.639 running the game? Like what's going on? But see the thing? Yeah, 1:24:38.640 --> 1:24:41.400 but see because the thing is we it was you. 1:24:44.120 --> 1:24:45.800 I mean, I was only there for about five more 1:24:45.840 --> 1:24:51.559 months because we were scared. And also, you guys understand 1:24:51.600 --> 1:24:56.200 how invested we were in Vibe success, how much responsibility 1:24:56.360 --> 1:25:00.919 we felt to the community and to our elves and 1:25:00.920 --> 1:25:04.559 and just the music into hip hop culture. Like we 1:25:04.560 --> 1:25:08.519 were obsessed. There's not a better word for it. I 1:25:08.520 --> 1:25:10.920 would say this about just most everybody on the staff, 1:25:10.960 --> 1:25:12.280 down to the receptionists. 1:25:12.920 --> 1:25:14.439 They had to be a lot of pressure because you're 1:25:14.760 --> 1:25:16.080 top of that food chain. 1:25:16.479 --> 1:25:22.000 Yeah, and people were people were attacking us physically. People 1:25:22.040 --> 1:25:27.000 were getting guns pulled on them in the studio overmember 1:25:27.200 --> 1:25:29.439 record reviews and stuff, and so it's. 1:25:29.360 --> 1:25:32.519 Like, yeah, would you change anything? 1:25:33.360 --> 1:25:39.439 I would change everything up here. No, not everything, But 1:25:39.520 --> 1:25:42.040 you know what if I just as I said, we 1:25:42.040 --> 1:25:46.800 were all we were young, man, I think about think 1:25:46.800 --> 1:25:49.240 about your think about I call them my baby cousins 1:25:49.240 --> 1:25:51.400 and stuff like, think I think about my baby cousins 1:25:51.400 --> 1:25:53.559 that are like twenty five years old right now. They 1:25:53.640 --> 1:25:56.400 come over and ask me the most ridiculous stuff and 1:25:56.439 --> 1:25:59.040 I'm like, aren't you grown? And They're like no, And 1:25:59.080 --> 1:26:01.559 I'm like, I was a whole Like I thought that 1:26:01.680 --> 1:26:04.240 was right. I was a whole R and B editor 1:26:04.240 --> 1:26:06.200 of Billboard at that at your age, man. 1:26:06.120 --> 1:26:06.280 Like. 1:26:07.800 --> 1:26:11.160 What like I was? I was? I was editing Haveloc 1:26:11.240 --> 1:26:13.120 Nelson when I was like twenty five. 1:26:14.520 --> 1:26:15.640 That's not fair to put that. 1:26:15.920 --> 1:26:19.080 Now, their age, their age like a twenty four, you know, 1:26:19.240 --> 1:26:21.559 in ninety five, and a twenty four in twenty twenty 1:26:21.560 --> 1:26:22.160 two or two. 1:26:22.000 --> 1:26:25.680 Completely very different. It's very different. I'm not saying I 1:26:25.760 --> 1:26:28.200 wasn't mature, but I'm just saying I was still I 1:26:28.200 --> 1:26:30.800 didn't have a lot of it. I was learning how 1:26:30.840 --> 1:26:33.960 to manage on the job. And then all of a sudden, 1:26:34.000 --> 1:26:36.120 you tell me you're coming to my office and say 1:26:36.960 --> 1:26:40.400 I was at the studio and such and such didn't 1:26:40.400 --> 1:26:42.559 like the review, and I told him I was I could. 1:26:42.680 --> 1:26:44.280 I didn't know what to say to that, and then 1:26:44.360 --> 1:26:47.840 they just pulled out a gun. Now, I'm not going 1:26:47.840 --> 1:26:51.400 to act like I'm not from East Oakland, because I 1:26:51.439 --> 1:26:53.400 am mm hmm. 1:26:54.000 --> 1:26:55.240 But that was statement. 1:26:55.640 --> 1:26:59.400 Well, it's it's loaded from a native yeh, I feel, 1:26:59.520 --> 1:27:03.080 but that's still shouldn't be. No, it's not normalized. But 1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:07.719 in the nineteen late nineteen eighties in Oakland and East 1:27:07.760 --> 1:27:10.040 Oakland in particular, but in West Oakland. 1:27:09.680 --> 1:27:12.719 Too, in your office and I'm talking about this storied 1:27:13.160 --> 1:27:13.680 no no, but. 1:27:13.640 --> 1:27:16.800 I'm saying that, you know, and you just kind of 1:27:17.240 --> 1:27:19.799 kind of had to be about it in East Okland. 1:27:20.439 --> 1:27:23.360 And so did I bring some of that being about 1:27:23.400 --> 1:27:28.240 it to the offices of Vibe. I probably did. I 1:27:28.320 --> 1:27:29.160 probably did. 1:27:29.920 --> 1:27:33.360 When you are running a ship like that, is there 1:27:33.479 --> 1:27:38.439 pressure that you felt that your male contemporaries wouldn't have 1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:46.920 had that have gone through yes, like timeout with Salan 1:27:46.960 --> 1:27:50.240 and jonathanis screamer? Were they screamers or not at all? 1:27:50.360 --> 1:27:50.720 Not at all. 1:27:51.360 --> 1:27:55.360 I almost think Alan's like not passive aggressive, but. 1:27:55.360 --> 1:27:57.840 Like, no, Allan's is a very soft spoken dude. 1:27:58.280 --> 1:27:59.360 Right, That's what I'm saying. 1:27:59.400 --> 1:28:03.280 So people deal with white men differently than they deal 1:28:03.360 --> 1:28:08.320 with black women, all positions of power. And as much 1:28:08.360 --> 1:28:10.559 as I'm saying that, you know, I brought some of 1:28:10.560 --> 1:28:15.320 my East Oakland nests to the editor in Chief's chair, 1:28:15.360 --> 1:28:18.360 I'm also sitting front row in Milan at you know, 1:28:18.400 --> 1:28:21.599 the Jill Sanders Show and things like that, and trying 1:28:21.680 --> 1:28:24.439 to give all of that energy before I even knew 1:28:24.439 --> 1:28:26.960 how to get that kind of energy. But if you're 1:28:27.000 --> 1:28:31.520 asking me, was it hard because I was a black woman. Absolutely, 1:28:32.120 --> 1:28:36.160 And this is the thing I'm not guessing because I 1:28:36.360 --> 1:28:40.800 know the men that ran other magazines and that ran 1:28:40.800 --> 1:28:44.360 a vibe after me, and I know what their experiences 1:28:44.439 --> 1:28:48.160 were like as compared to my experiences. I know how 1:28:48.240 --> 1:28:51.519 much money they made as compared to how much money 1:28:51.680 --> 1:28:55.000 I made. I know all of these things. Also just 1:28:55.040 --> 1:28:57.800 because I'm nosy and I'm a reporter, So it's like, 1:28:58.800 --> 1:29:02.920 was it harder for me? Yeah? Were there times when 1:29:02.960 --> 1:29:06.400 it was easier for me maybe, but not enough. 1:29:06.720 --> 1:29:08.000 It didn't balance out the hard shit. 1:29:08.240 --> 1:29:12.760 No, as an artist, I wanted to study who the 1:29:12.800 --> 1:29:17.640 gatekeepers of reviews and words were when at the well 1:29:17.680 --> 1:29:19.519 I'm still making records, but the time when I was 1:29:19.560 --> 1:29:27.280 making products. But for you, do you have hope for 1:29:28.080 --> 1:29:32.200 what counts for journalism today? Because I will say that 1:29:32.240 --> 1:29:35.759 there's like a level of thoroughness that is kind of lost, 1:29:35.760 --> 1:29:39.240 and there's also just technique and and I'm not saying that. 1:29:39.160 --> 1:29:40.439 It's it's it's a lost art. 1:29:40.520 --> 1:29:43.360 Like there's definitely some writers that I feel like are 1:29:43.400 --> 1:29:46.320 super smart and super insightful. But for the most part, 1:29:47.120 --> 1:29:49.320 I think now it's like the wild wild West where 1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:53.880 just you know, there's there's just people that aren't that 1:29:54.000 --> 1:29:58.000 knowledgeable about their subjects. They run on Wikipedia real quick 1:29:58.640 --> 1:30:02.480 or run to your old articles and add to it, 1:30:01.200 --> 1:30:07.280 do you feel like your era of the NBA or 1:30:07.320 --> 1:30:10.519 the new era of the NBA is can hold a 1:30:10.560 --> 1:30:13.200 candle to your era of it? 1:30:13.200 --> 1:30:17.479 It's harder, but yes, I do think they can. For 1:30:17.520 --> 1:30:22.040 the most part. If there's differences in quality, it's not 1:30:22.080 --> 1:30:23.920 the fault of the writer. 1:30:24.840 --> 1:30:26.280 It's also what they have to write about. 1:30:26.600 --> 1:30:29.320 No, it's the fact that there's no budgets for anything. 1:30:29.640 --> 1:30:32.679 There's no If you're writing right now for twenty cents 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:35.200 a word, how much are you putting into it? I 1:30:35.240 --> 1:30:36.920 was writing for twenty cents a word when I was 1:30:36.960 --> 1:30:39.439 in my early twenties. If you were, I turned stuff 1:30:39.479 --> 1:30:41.719 down now because I'm just like, it's just not worth 1:30:41.800 --> 1:30:45.040 it for me to do that, because I'm not even 1:30:45.080 --> 1:30:48.720 contributing to my household well on what you're trying to 1:30:49.080 --> 1:30:53.599 pay me. And so then you have kids who aren't 1:30:53.640 --> 1:30:58.719 getting fact checked. You have kids that aren't not even kids, 1:30:58.720 --> 1:31:02.439 but adults who aren't edited by people that no one 1:31:02.560 --> 1:31:05.880 understand the culture and who they themselves are being paid 1:31:05.880 --> 1:31:08.519 well enough to put their heart and soul into the work. 1:31:09.120 --> 1:31:12.320 You have people that are only doing email interviews because 1:31:12.320 --> 1:31:15.800 no one wants to pay somebody's cab across town, let 1:31:15.840 --> 1:31:19.000 alone a plane trip. I remember when I sent Michael Gonzalez, 1:31:19.040 --> 1:31:22.520 another great writer from the Vibe era, shout Michael Gonzalez, 1:31:22.800 --> 1:31:27.400 Gonzo Mike it. It's like I remember Barry White had 1:31:27.400 --> 1:31:29.240 an album coming out that was the Practice What You 1:31:29.280 --> 1:31:33.599 Preach album, and they were like, well, I wanted a story, 1:31:33.680 --> 1:31:35.879 Like I just wanted the story. I wanted the story. 1:31:36.200 --> 1:31:38.519 I think I was music editor at the time, and 1:31:39.600 --> 1:31:41.240 they were like, well, we can't do it, we can't 1:31:41.240 --> 1:31:43.000 do it, we can't do it. But if you want 1:31:43.040 --> 1:31:46.160 to send somebody to Brussels right now, then we can 1:31:46.200 --> 1:31:48.760 do it. I went to my boss whoever it was 1:31:48.800 --> 1:31:51.160 at the time and told them the situation and they said, welly, 1:31:51.160 --> 1:31:53.840 I'm gonna taket to Brussels and they went. And it's 1:31:53.880 --> 1:31:57.519 a great, great story from Michael on the headline is 1:31:57.600 --> 1:32:01.759 BlackBerry Jam and it's an a amazing it's an amazing 1:32:01.800 --> 1:32:04.600 story and amazing photographs and it's like, where is that 1:32:04.680 --> 1:32:06.479 going to happen? Now? That's not the that's not the 1:32:06.520 --> 1:32:09.479 fault of the writer. That's the thing that's heartbreaking to me. 1:32:09.600 --> 1:32:11.959 One of the great things about me going to ESPN 1:32:12.520 --> 1:32:16.519 was because ESPN has budgets. As I said, they sent 1:32:16.600 --> 1:32:19.840 me to Katar to do someone boles. When is that happening? 1:32:20.280 --> 1:32:23.439 They can afford to to to take care of people 1:32:23.520 --> 1:32:27.400 like Justin Tensay, like David Dennis like so Ria like yeah, 1:32:27.560 --> 1:32:30.760 like you know, like so that people can make a 1:32:30.800 --> 1:32:33.880 living and have a life. There's not even that many 1:32:33.960 --> 1:32:36.559 places right now where you can go where that's okay. 1:32:36.600 --> 1:32:38.759 So when I say I have hope, I do believe 1:32:38.760 --> 1:32:40.559 that the pendulum is going to swing back, but it's 1:32:40.560 --> 1:32:43.919 going to take some footstopping and maybe even some swinging 1:32:43.960 --> 1:32:46.519 on the part of the journalists themselves. That's when I 1:32:46.560 --> 1:32:50.000 say yes, Like I don't know what a general strike 1:32:50.120 --> 1:32:51.840 is called for, I don't know, but. 1:32:51.880 --> 1:32:54.760 Something that I give, Okay, are you going to write 1:32:54.800 --> 1:32:57.200 any more fictional novels? 1:32:58.360 --> 1:33:02.439 Whether yes, I love fiction and my MFA is in fiction, 1:33:03.200 --> 1:33:06.320 I may, God willing, in life is long, I may, 1:33:07.040 --> 1:33:09.519 but I will admit that the things that I'm thinking 1:33:09.560 --> 1:33:12.040 about with regard to fiction now would probably be more 1:33:12.040 --> 1:33:16.360 scripts maybe the novels. Yeah, it's what I'm into right now, 1:33:16.400 --> 1:33:19.160 and thinking about how to maybe even look at my 1:33:19.240 --> 1:33:21.719 first two novels and how those things might turn into 1:33:22.160 --> 1:33:25.000 things that exist in other spaces, whether that's audio, whether 1:33:25.080 --> 1:33:27.920 that's you know, filmic or whatever. So those are the 1:33:28.000 --> 1:33:30.679 kind of things that I'm thinking about a lot, trying 1:33:30.720 --> 1:33:33.080 to learn about taking a page out of your books, 1:33:33.120 --> 1:33:36.320 are just trying to look at what could happened it? Yeah, 1:33:36.320 --> 1:33:39.519 what can happen in documentary spaces and things like that. 1:33:40.560 --> 1:33:45.400 I'm actually, you know, I guess by the time this airs, 1:33:45.520 --> 1:33:48.400 will already made an announcement like I'm a Freddy Cat 1:33:48.439 --> 1:33:51.920 in terms of I never make an announcement until the 1:33:51.960 --> 1:33:56.519 project is finished, okay, when it comes. But the probably 1:33:56.520 --> 1:33:59.120 the biggest secret I've been keeping under my hat for 1:33:59.160 --> 1:34:00.840 the last two years is I too, have. 1:34:00.880 --> 1:34:02.559 Written a fictional book. 1:34:03.800 --> 1:34:06.680 And well, well, I will assume that this will come 1:34:06.680 --> 1:34:11.360 out by next week. So I'm I've been a junkie 1:34:11.400 --> 1:34:14.439 of time travel and I'm one of my favorite writers, 1:34:16.040 --> 1:34:20.639 a gentleman named s A. Cosby who he's written many 1:34:20.640 --> 1:34:23.960 a New York Times bestseller. So he and I sort 1:34:23.960 --> 1:34:28.920 of came friends over the pandemic, and I guess, you know, 1:34:29.320 --> 1:34:32.400 taking a break from doing the movie, I would DJ, 1:34:32.640 --> 1:34:35.040 but then taking a break from DJ and I would 1:34:35.120 --> 1:34:39.640 journal and wrote my other music book. But then my 1:34:39.760 --> 1:34:44.320 fourth pivot was I always wanted to write kind of 1:34:44.880 --> 1:34:45.800 the books that I. 1:34:45.720 --> 1:34:47.240 Didn't get to read as a kid. 1:34:47.360 --> 1:34:51.120 So it's and are those books like black people traveling 1:34:51.160 --> 1:34:52.720 in Time? Is that? What is? 1:34:52.800 --> 1:34:55.639 Yeah, it's it's two kids. It's it's it's middle school books. 1:34:55.720 --> 1:34:57.080 So it's it's two kids. 1:34:56.800 --> 1:34:59.040 That are as a yo novel. 1:34:59.280 --> 1:35:01.200 Yeah, it's it's it's two kids that are. 1:35:01.040 --> 1:35:04.040 Are are I love to hear it. 1:35:04.280 --> 1:35:07.839 Yeah, a grown up boy. They're both fourteen and fifteen. 1:35:07.920 --> 1:35:10.720 And the girl she's like a science wizard and she 1:35:10.840 --> 1:35:14.439 invents a time travel device and he gets the bright 1:35:14.479 --> 1:35:16.720 idea to try to save one of his groups that 1:35:16.760 --> 1:35:20.960 he admired, uh from breaking up and the butterfly effect 1:35:21.040 --> 1:35:23.160 of Yeah, of that anyway. 1:35:22.920 --> 1:35:25.800 Sounds really good. That's like I remember I used to 1:35:25.800 --> 1:35:28.200 read all those Madelin Lingo books like Wrinkling Time and 1:35:28.280 --> 1:35:31.280 all that. All the time those folks were white in 1:35:31.320 --> 1:35:33.439 the book. I love the books, but I didn't see 1:35:33.439 --> 1:35:34.200 myself in them. 1:35:34.880 --> 1:35:35.080 Yeah. 1:35:35.280 --> 1:35:37.519 I kept that one and then under Wraps only because 1:35:37.600 --> 1:35:43.559 like again, I have like nine projects on the back 1:35:43.600 --> 1:35:46.559 burner and maybe only four of them will actually make 1:35:46.560 --> 1:35:49.599 it to fruition and the other five sort of fall 1:35:49.600 --> 1:35:51.200 out the wayside, and then I got to figure out 1:35:51.200 --> 1:35:51.800 what to do with it. 1:35:52.120 --> 1:35:54.479 But this sounds really exciting. It sounds so excited. 1:35:55.080 --> 1:35:56.280 Thank you, I'm excited. 1:35:56.920 --> 1:35:58.640 I want to ask you, damn before we break up. 1:35:59.200 --> 1:36:02.000 So were you editor and vibe was this like eight 1:36:02.160 --> 1:36:03.840 ninety nine? Were you still there at that time. 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:06.320 I was there from ninety seven to ninety nine. 1:36:06.920 --> 1:36:09.439 Nice nine. Okay, there was a review. 1:36:10.360 --> 1:36:13.960 It was the Lee review for the for the Revolution's 1:36:14.280 --> 1:36:18.679 Record review section. That was a four Heroes, two pages album. 1:36:18.840 --> 1:36:22.479 I don't know if you even remember this, but it 1:36:22.560 --> 1:36:27.280 was the Lee review and that was just if you 1:36:27.280 --> 1:36:27.840 you were there. 1:36:28.120 --> 1:36:32.519 I just want to thank you for that. Man ever 1:36:32.560 --> 1:36:37.519 wrote it. Ever, God, don't get me the line don't 1:36:37.560 --> 1:36:39.040 get me to line. I can't. I have to look 1:36:39.040 --> 1:36:39.280 it up. 1:36:39.320 --> 1:36:41.360 I don't recall it off the rip, but I wish 1:36:41.360 --> 1:36:43.120 I did, because you guys are making me feel like 1:36:43.160 --> 1:36:44.439 I should go back and find it. 1:36:45.240 --> 1:36:47.280 Yeah, that review just opened me up. 1:36:47.280 --> 1:36:49.280 I mean I never would have found that album had 1:36:49.280 --> 1:36:52.800 I not saw that, and it just just completely Yeah. Yeah, 1:36:52.840 --> 1:36:55.120 that was my first time ever hearing reading review. 1:36:55.240 --> 1:36:55.799 That's crazy. 1:36:56.439 --> 1:36:58.640 I mean, you've been living in London for years, so 1:36:58.760 --> 1:37:00.400 it was whatever to you. 1:37:00.120 --> 1:37:03.320 Well, no, they're the reason why I did the German 1:37:03.360 --> 1:37:05.360 based thing at the end of You Got Me. Yeah, 1:37:05.280 --> 1:37:08.960 when forign hero got that leave review even, I was like, 1:37:09.040 --> 1:37:11.120 oh God, damn, Like, finally. 1:37:10.880 --> 1:37:11.840 Did Greg Tate red. 1:37:14.080 --> 1:37:15.960 I bet you any money and money it was probably great. 1:37:16.439 --> 1:37:18.000 I bet you it sounds like it. 1:37:18.439 --> 1:37:20.400 That's one of the owners of my life too, is 1:37:20.840 --> 1:37:22.840 editing Greg. But at that time I was editor in chief, 1:37:22.880 --> 1:37:25.479 so I wouldn't have been editing him one on one. 1:37:25.560 --> 1:37:27.280 But the way it used to work it vibe was 1:37:27.520 --> 1:37:30.960 the writer filed to their editor and then that piece 1:37:31.000 --> 1:37:33.360 then would go from they go back and forth with it, 1:37:33.400 --> 1:37:35.040 and then that would go to what was called the 1:37:35.040 --> 1:37:37.320 top editor, which was the senior editor, and then the 1:37:37.360 --> 1:37:39.519 senior editor would get it right, and then it would 1:37:39.520 --> 1:37:42.479 go on page and usually then the editor in chief 1:37:42.600 --> 1:37:44.880 would read it at that point, and then it would 1:37:44.920 --> 1:37:48.599 go from approval by the editor in chief to fact 1:37:48.640 --> 1:37:50.840 checking to make sure every fact was correct, and then 1:37:51.000 --> 1:37:53.559 after fact checking, it would go to copy editing to 1:37:53.600 --> 1:37:55.880 make sure every period and comment everything was in the 1:37:55.920 --> 1:37:58.200 right place, and then at that time it would go 1:37:58.200 --> 1:38:00.240 to photo, and then after it would go to auto 1:38:00.240 --> 1:38:02.280 win design, and then at that point it would go 1:38:02.280 --> 1:38:04.559 to production and be made into a real page. And 1:38:04.600 --> 1:38:08.640 that's when I say, when you talk about budgets, you're 1:38:08.680 --> 1:38:12.360 talking about paying every single person at at every single stage, 1:38:13.040 --> 1:38:14.559 and that just doesn't exist anymore. 1:38:14.760 --> 1:38:17.960 Just me, I forgot. I believe if you were there 1:38:18.000 --> 1:38:19.519 in ninety Were you there in ninety. 1:38:19.360 --> 1:38:20.880 Nine a part of it? 1:38:21.479 --> 1:38:24.240 You guys actually let me write my own Vibe feature. 1:38:24.479 --> 1:38:28.360 That's all right, that sounds right, wrote it naked. 1:38:29.240 --> 1:38:31.000 No, that was such a moment. 1:38:31.240 --> 1:38:34.599 It would like Chris rock is guest editing. I think 1:38:34.600 --> 1:38:37.320 that was almost my last too. Yeah, that was. I 1:38:37.320 --> 1:38:41.120 feel like that was my second to last issue. And 1:38:41.160 --> 1:38:44.160 then maybe there was the j cover where he has 1:38:44.200 --> 1:38:46.599 his hands in front of him like this the whites 1:38:46.720 --> 1:38:49.040 in a white suit. But that was kind of the 1:38:49.120 --> 1:38:50.839 end of my first editor in chief era. 1:38:51.080 --> 1:38:54.479 The j LO, the very first j LO cover in 1:38:54.840 --> 1:38:56.320 ninety nine, that. 1:38:56.280 --> 1:38:58.320 Was I don't think I was there for that though. 1:38:58.720 --> 1:39:00.960 You guys didn't send a writer so literally, I just 1:39:01.040 --> 1:39:03.719 had to diary touring Europe and. 1:39:04.120 --> 1:39:05.639 That sounds like an amazing thing though. 1:39:06.240 --> 1:39:08.560 Yeah, yeah, no, it's definitely one of the probably the 1:39:09.120 --> 1:39:12.760 second major features I wrote, like, I enjoyed it all right. 1:39:12.800 --> 1:39:16.479 My last question, because you are from Oakland, I am, 1:39:17.280 --> 1:39:20.000 but to be of age in Oakland at the time 1:39:20.040 --> 1:39:23.160 when that first generation of hip hop was coming out, 1:39:23.240 --> 1:39:29.479 are there any notable like for you moments of growing 1:39:29.600 --> 1:39:32.400 up in Oakland that you can share as far as 1:39:32.560 --> 1:39:36.800 like the culture of it in terms of shows that 1:39:36.840 --> 1:39:38.440 you saw when you were younger. 1:39:38.280 --> 1:39:40.679 That sort of thing, because it's such a musical town. 1:39:40.760 --> 1:39:43.479 Man. I mean, I don't know if I have how 1:39:43.479 --> 1:39:46.240 many Oakland tales I have. I can just tell you. 1:39:46.160 --> 1:39:47.480 That your best one. 1:39:48.080 --> 1:39:50.160 What do I have? I mean, I told you I 1:39:50.200 --> 1:39:52.800 saw the Jackson five nearby in San Carlos at the 1:39:52.800 --> 1:39:56.800 Circle Star Theater, and it's like, I don't know, Like, 1:39:57.400 --> 1:39:59.720 let's just pass by the childhood stuff and get back 1:39:59.760 --> 1:40:02.439 to me moving to the Bay Area as a college 1:40:02.439 --> 1:40:04.759 student at UC Berkeley. So now you have to understand 1:40:04.760 --> 1:40:08.680 too that the Barry is a huge touring stock. I mean, 1:40:08.720 --> 1:40:11.200 you know this, and so I'm seeing anybody from a 1:40:11.240 --> 1:40:14.080 flock of Seagulls to Frankie Beverly and Mats and Ziggy Marley. 1:40:14.479 --> 1:40:16.719 I'm seeing all of that. And then when I decide 1:40:16.720 --> 1:40:18.439 I want to be, like I'm really going to become 1:40:18.439 --> 1:40:21.639 a writer, then it's like EMC. Hammer's blowing up in vogues, 1:40:21.640 --> 1:40:24.559 blowing up two shorts, blown up, Tony Tony, Tony's blown up. 1:40:24.560 --> 1:40:27.559 And these are just the folks that invoked the TIMEX 1:40:27.600 --> 1:40:30.240 Social Club. These are just the folks that got famous 1:40:30.280 --> 1:40:32.880 we're not even talking about Paris is blown up. We're 1:40:32.880 --> 1:40:34.880 not even talking about Kate Cloud and the crew, you 1:40:34.920 --> 1:40:36.960 know what I'm saying. We're not talking about MC, and 1:40:37.200 --> 1:40:40.080 we're not talking about what about Conscious Daughters. 1:40:40.479 --> 1:40:41.920 Obviously, you don't. 1:40:41.720 --> 1:40:46.960 Forget about the the was right there, like we were 1:40:47.000 --> 1:40:51.599 all coming up together. And then and then when when 1:40:51.680 --> 1:40:53.920 the tour happened, the tour that I was out a 1:40:53.960 --> 1:40:57.880 lot on the Public Enemy tour with Heavy D and 1:40:57.920 --> 1:40:59.800 the Boys, Queen La Chief and the so. 1:40:59.800 --> 1:41:05.240 Far Digital on the ground had those masks on. Yes, yes, 1:41:06.000 --> 1:41:06.639 one of the best. 1:41:06.680 --> 1:41:09.560 One of the best hip hop tours in history, and 1:41:09.520 --> 1:41:12.120 a kid and play. Depending on the day, it would 1:41:12.120 --> 1:41:14.200 be MC Breed. Depending on the day, it would be 1:41:14.640 --> 1:41:17.720 Luke Skywalker two Live Grew, depending on the place, it 1:41:17.760 --> 1:41:20.599 would be certa mix, a lot trouble. T Roy died 1:41:20.640 --> 1:41:24.439 on that tour, just like those Tupaca was on their tour, 1:41:24.520 --> 1:41:29.400 dancing background for Digital those moments and the way that 1:41:29.479 --> 1:41:33.400 Oakland hip hop will Coles obviously Chuck D I don't 1:41:33.400 --> 1:41:36.479 even know how I can explain. It's just and then 1:41:36.520 --> 1:41:39.080 it would be in the studio sometimes the digital because 1:41:39.840 --> 1:41:42.280 those are my guys and I was dating a road 1:41:42.360 --> 1:41:44.479 manager back then, all the wild stuff we was doing, 1:41:44.560 --> 1:41:47.840 and shout out to nilslis Johnson, who's an amazing guy. 1:41:47.920 --> 1:41:50.479 Still we're friends to this day. You know, we'd be 1:41:50.520 --> 1:41:53.840 in the studio and in in Marine County or in 1:41:53.920 --> 1:41:56.400 Richmond and be like, you know, gold records from like 1:41:56.439 --> 1:41:58.640 platinum records from like Huey Lewis in the News and 1:41:58.760 --> 1:42:02.400 Journey and Frankie Beverly and the Whispers and all Pointer 1:42:02.560 --> 1:42:06.000 Sisters and all this grace of tower power from Oakland history, 1:42:06.040 --> 1:42:09.200 and it's like we felt like we were Yes, we 1:42:09.200 --> 1:42:11.800 felt like we were in the righteous space. Man. It 1:42:11.880 --> 1:42:14.320 felt good, and honestly it still feels good. 1:42:14.880 --> 1:42:17.640 I had to get it out, Daniel. I thank you 1:42:17.760 --> 1:42:18.080 very much. 1:42:18.120 --> 1:42:20.439 I know we had a few false starts and trying 1:42:20.439 --> 1:42:21.639 to do this, but thank you. 1:42:21.720 --> 1:42:25.920 I was just say. Mark Weingarten wrote that four Hero review. 1:42:26.360 --> 1:42:28.800 He wrote that review that you're talking Yeah, I. 1:42:28.760 --> 1:42:32.160 Remember, yes, okay, but I just wanted to thank you 1:42:32.200 --> 1:42:32.479 for that. 1:42:33.000 --> 1:42:37.160 Oh well, of course we were happy to be of service. 1:42:37.200 --> 1:42:39.759 We really are, and we really were, and like I said, 1:42:39.840 --> 1:42:43.000 all of us that worked there over the time. I'm 1:42:43.000 --> 1:42:45.800 not saying we have our bad times, but if you 1:42:45.840 --> 1:42:47.880 are a part of Vibe, ex Excel, to Source and 1:42:48.040 --> 1:42:54.439 those big magazines Essence, Latina, all those King Latino, Yeah, 1:42:54.680 --> 1:42:58.160 you know, King Magazine, Slam, all that stuff. It's like 1:42:58.200 --> 1:43:00.880 it's a certain fraternity slash sorority that we're all in. 1:43:01.560 --> 1:43:04.880 And everything wasn't perfect, we didn't do everything right, but 1:43:04.920 --> 1:43:06.800 we are most most of us are pretty proud of 1:43:06.840 --> 1:43:08.960 the stuff that we did there. And if it wasn't 1:43:08.960 --> 1:43:10.880 for that, would there be shine, right, No, would there 1:43:10.920 --> 1:43:14.280 be black girls on book right? Not at all. 1:43:14.760 --> 1:43:17.559 So yeah, again, I really want to thank you, and yeah, 1:43:17.960 --> 1:43:20.840 I highly recommend to our audience who religiously listens to 1:43:20.880 --> 1:43:25.120 our podcast you definitely want to get the book, get 1:43:25.120 --> 1:43:29.280 the hard copy and actually, you know the audiobook where 1:43:30.320 --> 1:43:37.200 I've just never heard someone so emotionally Yeah, because no, No, 1:43:37.320 --> 1:43:39.360 the days I couldn't read it, I would drive to it. 1:43:39.400 --> 1:43:41.960 And you know, there's a few times we had to 1:43:41.960 --> 1:43:44.000 break down and catch some tears for a second, and that, 1:43:44.120 --> 1:43:49.120 to me, I was just an awesome level of vulnerability. 1:43:49.120 --> 1:43:50.799 And I really loved the book. 1:43:50.640 --> 1:43:53.439 And it sets a lot of light on a lot 1:43:53.479 --> 1:43:57.920 of unsung heroes that we didn't So thank you very much. 1:43:58.360 --> 1:43:59.880 Daniel. I appreciate it. 1:44:00.040 --> 1:44:02.160 Thank you all. Thank you Quest so much. It's the 1:44:02.240 --> 1:44:04.679 honor and thank you everybody on this team. It's amazing 1:44:04.720 --> 1:44:06.280 to see and meet everybody. 1:44:06.320 --> 1:44:09.400 All right, when you have a Layah and Fon, Tickeolo 1:44:09.600 --> 1:44:10.519 and Sugar Steve. 1:44:11.840 --> 1:44:13.000 Yeah, thank you. There you go. 1:44:13.160 --> 1:44:15.160 The journalism and episode are my favorite. 1:44:15.479 --> 1:44:19.559 Unpaid bills back whatever you said, you're mute right now. 1:44:20.000 --> 1:44:22.200 I'll speak for you said, give me a baby. 1:44:22.479 --> 1:44:24.760 All right, great, great, all right, this is Quest Love 1:44:24.840 --> 1:44:26.200 and we'll see you over the next go around. 1:44:26.240 --> 1:44:40.679 Thank you very much. Quest Love Supreme is a production 1:44:40.880 --> 1:44:42.080 of iHeart Radio. 1:44:46.880 --> 1:44:50.160 For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, 1:44:50.360 --> 1:44:53.760 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.