1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: Body does, but Joseph's gotten more. Many times we wonder 2 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:17,680 Speaker 1: why certain individuals choose a particular profession. There's any number 3 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 1: of motivations, you know, behind it. Maybe it's a generational thing. 4 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: Maybe you're trying to listen to your own inner voice 5 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: and you go down a path that no one had 6 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: ever expected. But then there are those individuals that they 7 00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: seek out positions where they can be in power. It 8 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: doesn't really matter that they don't have much substance to them, 9 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,160 Speaker 1: or that they don't bring anything edifine to the table. 10 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:05,480 Speaker 1: We're going to talk about a case. Actually it's dismissive 11 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: to say a case. It's not singular cases. And the 12 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: reason I say case is we're going to talk about 13 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 1: a triple homicide involving one such individual who possibly sought 14 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: out employment as a law enforcement officer so that he 15 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: could quote unquote be in charge. Say Morgan, why would 16 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: you say that law enforcement officer he's going to be 17 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: in charge? Yeah, I guess you could question that, But 18 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, this guy was not only previously a law 19 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 1: enforcement aufser, he was also a sitting mayor. The only 20 00:01:55,880 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: difference is is that with him, he's a true bah 21 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:10,839 Speaker 1: homicide suspect. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs, Dave. 22 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:17,360 Speaker 1: Don't you hate to be around folks that are, I 23 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 1: don't know self endowed with power? I guess they. It's 24 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 1: always been the measure to me that if you have 25 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: power and you choose not to wield it, that you 26 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:35,440 Speaker 1: hold it in reserve. It's always the quiet person in 27 00:02:35,480 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: the room, isn't it. They say, that's the most dangerous 28 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 1: person in the room that has power, but yet they 29 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 1: choose not to overstep the boundaries of good, good taste. 30 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: That's the person I'm concerned about. But you get somebody 31 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: that's bombastic and really full of themselves. Though those people 32 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: are kind of nauseating to me. 33 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,120 Speaker 2: Well, you got the old thing of the loudest person 34 00:02:58,160 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 2: in the room is the weakest, and the inverse course, 35 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 2: the quietest person is the strike if you're if you're 36 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: truly strong and powerful and know who you are, you 37 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: don't have to be like as a matter of fact, 38 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,120 Speaker 2: you can just listen, you know. Oh yeah, I remember 39 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 2: Uncle Polly and Goodfellas that, Oh yeah, he would he 40 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: would never he never wanted people to hear what he 41 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:20,800 Speaker 2: was saying. But he never wanted people to hear what 42 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 2: he was being told, either that the power of. 43 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 1: PAULI didn't even own a phone. He didn't even own 44 00:03:26,360 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 1: a phone. There you go, do all the calls from 45 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: from the pay phone, you know? Uh, yeah, you're right. Yeah. 46 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: And you know Pollie continuing that that thread, the narrator 47 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: uh uh you know says that Paully didn't move fast 48 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: because Pauli didn't have to exactly. But today's you know, 49 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: today's case cases. Again, I hate to keep saying the 50 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: case in the singular that we're going to be discussing 51 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: in one case to three victims. There you go, yeah, yeah, 52 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: it is one case. However, I will, I will, I 53 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: will let people know that first off, obviously we have 54 00:04:10,480 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: three homicide victims here, and folks might think about this 55 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: and maybe have never considered, did you know, at the 56 00:04:17,839 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: medical Examiner's office and in a corner's office, if you 57 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: have like a multiple homicide we signed, we assign separate 58 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:32,360 Speaker 1: case numbers or what in the medical examiner world, they're 59 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:36,480 Speaker 1: called a session numbers to each individual. And it's not 60 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: just a matter of honoring their humanity or anything like that. 61 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 1: It's to keep them separate because with three three homicide victims, 62 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: guess what, that's a that's three counts, that's three counts 63 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: of homicide. And so each individual has to be stood 64 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: up for essentially, and that investigation is separate, it's separate, 65 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: but yet they come together. And and you know, when 66 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 1: you're when you're talking about an individual that that commits 67 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: an act like this, you really have to wonder where 68 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 1: their mind is at. And you know what I thought, Dave, 69 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,280 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, I had this moment when 70 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: I was reading the story, and I was thinking, anybody, 71 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: anybody could have fallen into the sights of this guy, 72 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: if you'd just shown up at that single standing structure 73 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:34,320 Speaker 1: up there in South Dakota where this case cases take place, 74 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 1: if you just showed, if you if you had been 75 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: on the stoop, you'd be dead as well. 76 00:05:39,880 --> 00:05:41,120 Speaker 2: And I thought, I thought. 77 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: A lot about that. I remember thinking a lot about 78 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:48,840 Speaker 1: that as an investigator many years ago. And it's a 79 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: it's a horrible thing, but it was. It was always 80 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: very chilling. You know, the old adage of there but 81 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: for the grace of God go I it applies, and 82 00:05:57,120 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: that you know that you your part for some reason, 83 00:06:01,200 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 1: that you weren't in that space, and that happens with 84 00:06:04,000 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: multiple homicides. Many times people just absolutely go nuts and 85 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 1: they start randomly killing people day. 86 00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 2: Well, Jay Austrom is the former mayor of Centerville, South Dakota. 87 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: He's also a former sheriff's deputy, and at sixty four 88 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 2: years old, his wife, Victoria, tells him that she had 89 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 2: been drinking with a neighbor and the neighbor forcibly kissed 90 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 2: her and showed her his genitals. That's where all of 91 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:41,919 Speaker 2: this begins. Having drinks and Jay Austrom allegedly grabs his gun. Well, 92 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 2: I don't know if he had to grab it from 93 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 2: the house, because his wife said he had guns in 94 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: the car, and he decided, I'm going to teach that 95 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 2: man a lesson about messing with another man's wife. And 96 00:06:53,360 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 2: if you remember Leroy Brown, I mean as a junkyard dog, well, 97 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,600 Speaker 2: Jay Austrom, he was as mean as a junkyard dog, 98 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 2: and anybody in his wake was going to be in 99 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 2: trouble that night, allegedly, So you've laid it out perfectly, Joe, 100 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 2: that if you had been on this stoop, as is 101 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 2: kind of the case here with the three victims, the 102 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: one who calls nine one one actually had been shot 103 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 2: and actually during the nine one one call dies or 104 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: at least cannot shock. Yeah, he goes silent. 105 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: But what isn't that a chilling thing? Can you? I've 106 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: always you know, one job I would never want to have, 107 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: and God bless him, I've had to talk to him 108 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: for years. Are the people in headquarters that are that 109 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: are part of the people that work the radio is 110 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:50,880 Speaker 1: relative to the police, and many times they'll be housed together. Okay, 111 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 1: it depends upon the size of the of the department. 112 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: You'll have people that are receiving nine to eleven calls. 113 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: They'll kick it over to dispatch, or some times they're 114 00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: one and the same. That job, to me as tough 115 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: as being a death investigator was. And the things that 116 00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,480 Speaker 1: we see. Can you imagine being in this end it 117 00:08:10,560 --> 00:08:14,960 Speaker 1: is it's like this big dark room that's light that's 118 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: lighted with the glow of all the computers and the 119 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,080 Speaker 1: keyboards and all of that stuff, and you hear all 120 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: of these things on the other end of those lines, 121 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: people that are in the worst conditions that you can imagine, 122 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,360 Speaker 1: and then you don't really know what happens. I can't 123 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: imagine that operator that was on the other end of 124 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 1: the line and she's getting information from this guy and 125 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: he's asking for help, and then all of a sudden, 126 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:48,040 Speaker 1: line goes dead, silent, And that job in and of itself, 127 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: I don't think I could do it. It's a very 128 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 1: difficult time. I mean, God bless everybody that works in 129 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: nine to eleven. It is a tough, tough job. I 130 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: don't see how you decompress from it after doing things 131 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: that they do. 132 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's tough. I think that's why. I think that's 133 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 2: why when a nine to one one operator makes a 134 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 2: mistake by being cold or whatever and we hear it 135 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: that they get judged very harshly because it doesn't happen often. 136 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 2: They actually do maintain an even strain they have to, 137 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 2: And I'm with you as shocking. I can't imagine what 138 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 2: you do, and I can't imagine the helpless feeling, because 139 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: when somebody calls nine to one one, they're not calling 140 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,760 Speaker 2: a daughter at pizza. They're ordering it, usually because something 141 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: worse than they ever imagine happening has happened to them, 142 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: and they are the ones having to make the call. 143 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:42,440 Speaker 2: And and in this particular case, the victims here, Joe, 144 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: are all three young men, Paul Franks, his brother Zach Franks, 145 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: and Timothy Richmond. Paul Franks is twenty six. He's the 146 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 2: one that is alleged to have been inappropriate with Jay 147 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 2: Edward Ostrom's wife. Now I've been trying to find out 148 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 2: how old Victori R. Austrom is. I went to her 149 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 2: Facebook page and looked at some things there, and she 150 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: does look younger, yes, than her husband, but I can't 151 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,080 Speaker 2: find an actual age. And the reason I'm saying that 152 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,560 Speaker 2: is because again, Paul Francs is twenty six, his brother 153 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: Zach is twenty one, and the other one, victim, Timothy Richmond, 154 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 2: is thirty five. I believe Timothy Richmond was in the 155 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 2: wrong place at the wrong time and was just as 156 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 2: you mentioned, kind of sitting on the stoop when everything 157 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: went down. But Jay Austrom was out for revenge. She 158 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 2: was out to teach a man a lesson. And if 159 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:40,680 Speaker 2: you're you know what, Joe, if you show up with 160 00:10:40,760 --> 00:10:42,960 Speaker 2: a bat or a golf club or something to threaten 161 00:10:43,040 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: another man for doing something inappropriate with your wife, and 162 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 2: all you do is get into a shuffle, a scuffle, 163 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 2: you know, pushing and shoving, that's one thing. But he 164 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: shows up with not just one type. He has a shotgun, 165 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 2: but he also has a pistol. He's got multiple weapons here. 166 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: And the reason we know that platform exactly our platform rifle, 167 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: yeah as well, and that goes you know, that goes 168 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: to this, you know, the again, people are going to 169 00:11:09,520 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: talk about it, the premeditative factor here. You know, which 170 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,400 Speaker 1: do you show up. And it's a good point that 171 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: you make. We could argue, I guess extensively about a 172 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: baseball bat, and if you're demonstrating deadly forced with a 173 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: baseball bat, you can sell it to certain people. But 174 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 1: if you're trying to sell it to me, comparing that 175 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 1: to even a three eighty, which is a very tiny 176 00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 1: one of the smaller calibers of pistol rounds that one 177 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:42,520 Speaker 1: of the men. 178 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 2: Here just yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And to be clear, okay, Joe, 179 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 2: well let's back up for a minute. You mentioned the 180 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: ar platform. What specifically are you talking about. 181 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: Well, you know, people use a r and for whatever 182 00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: reason they think that are means assault rifle. That's not 183 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 1: a real term. I was in the military. We never 184 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: used assault rifle. You know, it's just just the term 185 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 1: that has been manufactured AR actually originates from the name 186 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: which is a brand called ArmaLite and Armorlite is you 187 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: got to go all the way back to, you know, 188 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: the first the first M sixteen rifles, which are you know, 189 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: it's like in the family tree of these AR platforms. 190 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 1: The M sixteen rifle is the first thing that our 191 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: troops had that was kind of a new space ag 192 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: kind of weapon back during the Vietnam era, because you know, 193 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: we're coming out of the first The first weapon that 194 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: we had that was really introduced as a infantry weapon 195 00:12:53,320 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: in the Vietnam era was the M fourteen, which is 196 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 1: just kind of a variant on the weapon that was 197 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: used in World War Two, which was the N one Grant. 198 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 1: It's just that you know, M fourteen fire seven point 199 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,840 Speaker 1: sixty two or like a three h eight round, like 200 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 1: a deer deer hunting round, very bold, robust. Some units 201 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:20,800 Speaker 1: still carry them, but really bulky wooden stock and it 202 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: would warp. The stock would actually warp in Vietnam because 203 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,600 Speaker 1: it was a wooden It was a wooden but that 204 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: the M sixteen, the Armorlite didn't because it's made out 205 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 1: of a composite. Now they would foul really easily, and 206 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 1: they'd have jamming problems. We had jamming problems even when 207 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: I qualified with it way back in the early eighties. 208 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: It but the round is so much smaller. It's five 209 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 1: point five six millimeter or zero point two two three caliber, 210 00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: which are two different measuring systems. And when I say 211 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: point two two three to give you an idea of 212 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:09,760 Speaker 1: the size of the round itself, when we're talking about 213 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,800 Speaker 1: the diameter of the round that's in the same family 214 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 1: as a twenty two caliber, it's just that you've got 215 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: more power behind it. It's not like a tiny little 216 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: shell casing like you have with a twenty two rifle. 217 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: This is a small caliber round that's being driven out 218 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: by a tremendous amount of propellant. And so the velocity 219 00:14:36,000 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: on the thing is pretty remarkable, but the damage is 220 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: questionable when you compare it to the seven point six 221 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 1: to two So. 222 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: Ed right back up, because you mentioned velocity, how does 223 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: the velocity versus the size of the round account for 224 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: the injuries caused? Meaning is a bigger round at a 225 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: slower velocity going to do more damage than a small 226 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 2: one and a FI as right? 227 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:05,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, And so you know there there are many accounts 228 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:09,840 Speaker 1: of people being shot in combat and you can even 229 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 1: hear this from spec Ops guys that have had to 230 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: carry the five point five six. You know, they can 231 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 1: put and these guys are really good at what they do. 232 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: I feel so stupid. Armorlite rifle was what they are that. 233 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so it's you know, it's just it's one 234 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: of those convenient terms that political types have used, you know, 235 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: to try to reemphasize this idea of assault rifle, the 236 00:15:34,720 --> 00:15:37,880 Speaker 1: five point five six when it's fired. I'm using these 237 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: terms interchangeable five point five six and two two three, 238 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: and there is a slight difference, but it's in the 239 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: same family. You know, when when there are many accounts 240 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: out there where people even in spec Ops community, where 241 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: they're putting rounds on target with five point five six 242 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: and they're having to shoot multiple times because sometimes, you know, 243 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: individuals will not even be aware that they've been shot. 244 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: It's such a tiny ground. Whereas if you get shot 245 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: with a seven point six y two, which is the 246 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: equivalent of zero point three eight, which is like Grandpappy's 247 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: deer hunting rifle, if you're going to take down, you know, 248 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: a deer or maybe an elk, it's going to be 249 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 1: sufficient to the task. It's going to deliver that energy 250 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 1: through a round that has much more mass, you know. 251 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,800 Speaker 1: And we hear that about stopping power, you know, people 252 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: we use that term, and it's really kind of people 253 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: don't really know what that means, the stopping power, because 254 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that it's necessarily measurable as many people think. 255 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: But I do know this. I do know that from 256 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:52,640 Speaker 1: what we're being told that this fellow, this former mayor 257 00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: and former police officer, in not just one but two 258 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: separate jurisdictions, he showed up ready for any number of 259 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: possibilities because it wasn't just one weapon. He apparently showed 260 00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: up the three, so apparently Daved. What I am understanding 261 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:34,680 Speaker 1: is that we've got about four days that elapsed between 262 00:17:35,840 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: the time that Jay Ostram's wife was approached or as 263 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,639 Speaker 1: she had put it, you know, kind of exposed to 264 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: this individual that she was drinking with. Interesting thing though, 265 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:05,600 Speaker 1: that I have discovered is that the exposure that she 266 00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:09,280 Speaker 1: was subjected to took place Dave, actually in her own home. 267 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:17,760 Speaker 1: It took place as as Jay Edward Ostrom was asleep 268 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 1: in his home. He's asleep his wife is still there 269 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: drinking with a man. Can I interject something here real quick? 270 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 1: If if the shoe were on the other foot, and 271 00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 1: it were Kim and I my precious wife, and I 272 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: was sitting up in my house drinking with some woman 273 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 1: from down the street, and literally this person is from 274 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: down the street and my wife is sleeping in the house. 275 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 1: I can tell you, I don't know what would happen, 276 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: what she would do to the woman, but I would 277 00:18:59,119 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 1: have hell to pay, I can tell you, you know, And 278 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:06,080 Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't do this, you know. It's just 279 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: it's an odd set of circumstances to me. And the 280 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: fact that that he was in her space and in 281 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:20,400 Speaker 1: in Ostroum space as well, that that gives us an 282 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: indication that there is a pre existing relationship here. That 283 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: this guy felt comfortable enough to be in Ostrom's domicile 284 00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: with his wife and they're all partaking Ostrom's asleep. Now 285 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: we don't know if he passed out or not, but 286 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: alcohol does play a role in this, which we'll come 287 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: back to in just a moment. But don't you don't 288 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,520 Speaker 1: you find this dynamic a bit a bit odd, Dave? 289 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 2: When people drink with neighbors they tend to drink because 290 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 2: you know, I was going to say tend to drink 291 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,119 Speaker 2: to excess because they're not going anywhere. And that's what 292 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 2: we're dealing with. We are dealing with neighbors here that 293 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 2: have been neighbors for a while and they are just 294 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 2: they're drinking socially, what have you. And Jay goes to 295 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,360 Speaker 2: bed in his own house and this continues on. Victoria 296 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 2: tells him about it later on, again not knowing all 297 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 2: of the ins and outs of their relationship. I mentioned 298 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 2: earlier when we first started that I'm trying to find 299 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: out more about Victoria the wife because Jay Austrom, Just 300 00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 2: so you know, Jay Austrom was involved in law enforcement 301 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 2: as a career for a long time, long time, and 302 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 2: he knows better than to approach the situation with a weapon. 303 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 2: He knows better, And I think he'll be judged harsher 304 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 2: because of this, because. 305 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: Dude, you are absolutely on the money with this, even 306 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 1: if he's no longer a practicing law enforcement office officer. 307 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: He knows where the guardrails are. 308 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 2: Dave, Yes, And most adult men know where I say men, 309 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 2: but most adults know the guardrails. Most people in relationships. Know, 310 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 2: there's a boundary you don't cross. Okay, you have. You're 311 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: in the man's home, you're having drinks, you know, socializing. 312 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,920 Speaker 2: That's what we're dealing with here, just socializing having drinks. Now, 313 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 2: Jay Austram goes to bed. Then this allegedly happens where 314 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: the neighbor forcibly kisses the man's wife and exposes himself. 315 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:33,160 Speaker 2: I don't know what their relationships are, but I don't. 316 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,320 Speaker 1: And that's a curious thing. You know. It took Okay, 317 00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: so let me just so so our friends understand what 318 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 1: we're talking about. As far as taught the time element 319 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: and this this goes to something I've always wanted to 320 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: discuss with you. I got to tell you. It's something 321 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: I learned in an undergraduate criminal law class. And dig this. 322 00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 1: Let me lay this on you. I think you might 323 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: find this interesting. But let's let's let's lay this out first. 324 00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 1: So this event, this drinking event in this home, this 325 00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 1: was on May the twenty third, and we're talking May 326 00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: twenty third, twenty twenty four here. It was four days 327 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: It was four days later when Jay Ostrom takes up 328 00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: these weapons and goes and perpetrates these crimes four days 329 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:35,760 Speaker 1: alleged alleged thank you, you're right, brother Dave, allegedly allegedly 330 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 1: got I gotta lay something on you. I love this, 331 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: this little aside that I learned in an undergraduate criminal 332 00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: law class that I took in New Orleans so many 333 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:53,639 Speaker 1: years ago. And it was taught by a guy that 334 00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,400 Speaker 1: was a former prosecutor in Orleans Parish, and it had 335 00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 1: to do with state law in Louisiana. And I want 336 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: you to dig this language. He was trying to give 337 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,120 Speaker 1: us an indication, you know how there are degrees of homicide. 338 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 1: You've at first second in that sort of thing. And 339 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: this idea of and there's an old term that they 340 00:23:14,520 --> 00:23:18,440 Speaker 1: use in Louisiana, by the way, is uh. It's it's 341 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: not part of English common law. Their criminal code is 342 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: based on the Napoleonic Code. It's the only state in 343 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: the US where it has that that uh, that designation. 344 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 1: At any rate. There's a term that they use to 345 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:40,879 Speaker 1: kind of delineate between a crime of passion and something 346 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: that required a bit more thought. And it's called dig. 347 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: This is called the heating and cooling of blood. H 348 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: And let me let me give you the example that 349 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 1: he said, if a guy, if a guy comes home 350 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: in the middle of the day, and I think he 351 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: had worked a case like this, If a oor head 352 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: defended or prosecuted case like this, and he would. He 353 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: cited this example several times. He said, if a guy 354 00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 1: comes home from work in the middle of the day 355 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: and finds his wife in bed with another man, and 356 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,959 Speaker 1: there's a baseball bat right there at his fingertips, and 357 00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: he grabs a baseball bat and beats them both to death, 358 00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,919 Speaker 1: by law, his blood has not had sufficient amount of 359 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: time to cool. Okay, same scenario, only the guy comes 360 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,120 Speaker 1: into his house, sees his wife in bed with another man, 361 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, maybe looks through the crack in the door, 362 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: turns on his heel, walks out the door, gets in 363 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: his car, leaves, goes down to the local watering hole, 364 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: sits there and has a beer, sits there, gets back 365 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 1: in his vehicle, drives to the house, and then walks 366 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,239 Speaker 1: in the house, grabs a baseball bat and beats him 367 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 1: to death. He's had sufficient amount tom for his blood 368 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 1: to have cooled. The trick here is this in this 369 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: particular case. Do when did she tell him about this? 370 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 1: Did she tell him about this? The next morning, on 371 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,159 Speaker 1: the morning of the twenty fourth or whatever it was. 372 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,680 Speaker 1: Or did she say, honey, this happened back the other 373 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,119 Speaker 1: night on the twenty third, and you know, do something 374 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 1: about it, or this happened in that amount of Tom 375 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: actually had he? 376 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, she told him that night. She told him the 377 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: night this happened, right before it happened. That's when she 378 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,280 Speaker 2: told him. This happened on the twenty third, while they 379 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:41,400 Speaker 2: were drinking at the Austrom home. Yeah, while Jay was asleep. 380 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 2: But she waited until the twenty seventh, when they were 381 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: having a few drinks again. And that's when Victoria Austrom 382 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,400 Speaker 2: tells Jay Austrom what had taken place the other night. 383 00:25:53,920 --> 00:26:00,280 Speaker 2: And that's Jay immediately got on he saw red, and 384 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 2: she said, he went, quote raging out of the house. Now, remember, Joe, 385 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: it's not a long drive. It's across the street. These 386 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 2: people are neighbors. 387 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: Five doors down. Or is it that it approximates? That 388 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,399 Speaker 1: doesn't mean something their neighbors. Yes, this is yet and 389 00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,160 Speaker 1: they're socialb neighbors. 390 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 2: So yeah, it wasn't like he had a long time 391 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 2: to cool off before he got there. He's seeing red. 392 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:25,760 Speaker 2: They did say he smelled of alcohol that night, So 393 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,360 Speaker 2: you have to know you don't have to assume. I'm 394 00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 2: going to assume because he has, you know, smelling like 395 00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: alcohol that he and his wife are drinking. She said, Hey, 396 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 2: the other night, been wanting to tell you this, but 397 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,040 Speaker 2: this is what happened when you went to bed and boom, 398 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 2: Jay's matt Wow. 399 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 1: So had he had sufficient amount of time for his 400 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:50,520 Speaker 1: blood to have cooled or what was boiling is boiling? 401 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: Raging As he leaves the house, Joe. 402 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,359 Speaker 1: Holy smokes, So that that puts this in maybe a 403 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,439 Speaker 1: different light. You think about the alcohol in We're not 404 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 1: excusing this, but what I'm saying is I think that 405 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: moving forward with the prosecution in this case, that's something 406 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 1: that's going to be factored in. Alcohol is going to 407 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: be factored in as well, because you know, any defense 408 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: attorney worth their salt is going to say that. You 409 00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: know that, Look, this guy was under tremendous pressure. He's 410 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: just been told this. He thinks his wife's been sexually 411 00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: assaulted and he wants he wants revenge for it. But 412 00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: you know, you think about three guys, you know, three guys, 413 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: it would It's It's one of the things where you 414 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: think about, well, wouldn't he target this specific person that 415 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: had done this. Well, maybe he didn't have clarity of mind. 416 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 1: Maybe he was so enraged he just went into a 417 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: blind rage. Let's see if they use the old blackout defense. 418 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,440 Speaker 1: I mean, Tom said, we I think you were talking 419 00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: about the the other the day, you know, where people say, yeah, 420 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: I don't. They remember everything except the moment when they 421 00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: committed to crime. 422 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: I can remember I trimmed three of my eyebrow hairs 423 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,120 Speaker 2: and a nosehair, and then I blacked out and woke 424 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,800 Speaker 2: up five minutes later with blood all over me and 425 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:11,679 Speaker 2: a dead person in the trunk of my car. I 426 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 2: don't know how it happened. 427 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: I don't know how it happened exactly. Shoot or no shoot. 428 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,640 Speaker 1: That's kind of the litmus test under stressful situations that 429 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: police have to learn when to engage a target or not. 430 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: There's so many factors that go into using what's specifically 431 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: referred to as deadly force. Police are trained on this. 432 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact. You have to go to 433 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,000 Speaker 1: the range several times a year to qualify with your weapon. 434 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: You're put through testing. They'll take you to a shoot 435 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 1: house or maybe a digital shoot house, and you're having 436 00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: to make these decisions. This is not a world that 437 00:29:03,120 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: Austrom would not have been familiar with, Dave. You know, 438 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: over all of these years in law enforcement, and of 439 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: course as an administrator, a mayor of a city, he 440 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: has to deal with these things because there's incidents involving 441 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: the police force. 442 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 2: Now you mentioned that this just happened in May of 443 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. We're not talking about something that happened 444 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: ten years ago, you know, Joe. In nineteen ninety four, 445 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 2: as a police officer, Jay Austrom shot and killed a man. 446 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 2: He was a suicidal man with a gun who pointed 447 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,239 Speaker 2: it to Jay Austrom's partner. Jay Austrom shot the man 448 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,680 Speaker 2: and killed him. In two thousand, there was a lawsuit 449 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,680 Speaker 2: filed by Patrick Wayne Dalby, who was the suspect in 450 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: the robbery of a clothing store. He filed a suit 451 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 2: claiming unnecessary force, claiming that Austrom struck him several times 452 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 2: around the back, head, face and i with the rifle 453 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: and fired two shots, and that by hitting him in 454 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,239 Speaker 2: the head in the eye caused him to lose his 455 00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,719 Speaker 2: left eye. Well, judge looked at it and said, no, 456 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: he did exactly what what he needed to do. Jay Austrom, 457 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 2: not guilty of anything, sent the man to prison. The 458 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 2: other case was in two thousand and one, a year later. 459 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 2: In this case, it was a domestic dispute where a 460 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: woman shows up at her sister's house and she says, 461 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: my husband has been beating me. The sister calls police. 462 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: My sister just showed up my house husband beating her. 463 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,840 Speaker 2: He's on his way over here. While on the phone 464 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,120 Speaker 2: with police, the woman's husband shows up. Jay Austrom is 465 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: sent out there to protect and serve. Right, he gets 466 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: out there and the man, Michael Owens, is going kind 467 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 2: of nutso and Jay Oustroman his partner, end up shooting 468 00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: the guy ten times and he dies. 469 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: Well. 470 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 2: They file a lawsuit against Jay Austraman as a partner, 471 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: saying they used unnecessary force. Blah blah blah. Anyway, judge 472 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 2: ruled on the side of Jay Austrom. So two times 473 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: he shoots men dead, and another time he beats a 474 00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: guy to the point where he loses his eye, and 475 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: all three times judges ruled on the side of Jay Austrom. 476 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 2: Is that what Jay Astrom is used to now doing 477 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,239 Speaker 2: what he feels is necessary and being backed up by 478 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: a judge. Did Jay Austram do what he felt was 479 00:31:01,520 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 2: necessary and expects a judge to rule it on his path? 480 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: I don't know, but it could be Joe. He could 481 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 2: be conditioned to believe that he can get away with this. 482 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: There's a pattern that's developing here. And I'm not saying 483 00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: that every cop doesn't have a pattern that comes along 484 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: with them. You develop these behaviors along the way, and 485 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 1: these are and what's kind of interesting about this day 486 00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: and it can happen anywhere. Don't get me wrong. These 487 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 1: are very small jurisdictions this guy's working in. It's not 488 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: like you have a vast number of opportunities they're going 489 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: to present themselves, you know, relative to that. And I 490 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,280 Speaker 1: don't know if that's necessarily an accurate measure, but when you, 491 00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: you know, you think about that, and you think about 492 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: how small the population is where he's practicing. He was 493 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: actually practicing as a deputy sheriff in Wyoming, and then 494 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: he comes to South Dakota and winds up practicing in 495 00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: law enforcement for a number of years. And then that's 496 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,160 Speaker 1: when he becomes a mayor. You know, he's elected to 497 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,320 Speaker 1: the mayorship of this town, Centerville. Yeah, and he he 498 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: winds up being charged or sued, I guess is the 499 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: more accurate term for sexual harassment. Which I think that 500 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 1: that suit originated with the chief of the police in 501 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: the town, Rachel. 502 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 2: It was a female Rachel Comtman. 503 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 1: So I don't you know, we talk a lot about 504 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 1: establishment of boundaries in this sort of thing, and that 505 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:37,000 Speaker 1: brings us in a way back to those incidences on 506 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,640 Speaker 1: the night of May the twenty seventh. Are we talking 507 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,520 Speaker 1: about a person that's just like a ticking time bomb? 508 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. But when he he left that house 509 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: that night after his wife had told him about what happened, 510 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,160 Speaker 1: She's not the one that reached out to the cops. 511 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: She she stayed in the house. Was fearful, was was she? 512 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,160 Speaker 1: You know, did she suspect anything? You had stated that 513 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,320 Speaker 1: that she said, well, he had guns in his car, right, 514 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: but you know, he wasn't. He wasn't showing up at 515 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 1: the house to have a game of patty cake with anybody. 516 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:20,480 Speaker 1: He showed up at this house armed with multiple weapon platforms. 517 00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 2: Day They asked her, you know, did he get did 518 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,240 Speaker 2: he grab a weapon before he left? That was their 519 00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 2: ques because she said he left in a rage, and 520 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 2: it's obvious question, well, did he like go to the 521 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 2: gun cabinet? Was he a gun overbear? And she said no, 522 00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 2: he just left. He was in a rage and left. 523 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:38,239 Speaker 1: Or did he make a comment, you know, I'm going 524 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 1: to kill the so and so's, I'm going to do 525 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: this and that. But if you if you're already armed, 526 00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: and you know, it's interesting because he chose the three 527 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: weapons involved here are so vastly different. You've got a 528 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,479 Speaker 1: three eighty pistol, which many people refer to as a 529 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 1: pocket pistol. As a matter of fact, our friends that 530 00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: are listening right now, if you'll if you'll just extend 531 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: the palm of your hand, just for a moment, the 532 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: palm up. A three eighty in many configurations will literally 533 00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,400 Speaker 1: fit in the palm of your hand. And I'm not 534 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,960 Speaker 1: talking about putting your finger through the trigger or anything. 535 00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,239 Speaker 1: I'm just talking about, you know, and some people refer 536 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: to it as a pocket pistol. Some people the old 537 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: term used to be a belly gun because it's easily concealable, 538 00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:26,920 Speaker 1: all right, and it fires a point three eight to 539 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: zero cartridge semi automatic that means that it doesn't have 540 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,800 Speaker 1: a wheel, okay for people that are familiar with the revolvers. 541 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: It's got a little indwelling magazine it can hold, you know, 542 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 1: depended upon the platform it can you know, it might 543 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,680 Speaker 1: hold eight eight rounds, okay, or it might hold seven rounds. 544 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 1: Then he's got a shotgun, and we don't know the 545 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: gauge of the shotgun. Presumably it's probably a twelve gauge. 546 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,839 Speaker 1: That's the most common gauge that's out there. It's what 547 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:03,480 Speaker 1: cops are most used to. And then he's got an 548 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,440 Speaker 1: AR rifle. Now there are many there are many different 549 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: calibers for ar platforms. You can have the standard five 550 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: point five six which I mentioned earlier, but you know 551 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: they may ar platforms now that have three eights, you know, 552 00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,439 Speaker 1: which is the original M fourteen rounds. So it's it's 553 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: just the shape of the rifle. But he showed up 554 00:35:21,600 --> 00:35:24,399 Speaker 1: with all of these platforms, TAVI, and i'm i'm and 555 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: if you'll permit me, When you work a crime scene 556 00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: and you've got multiple weapon platforms, most of the time 557 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: you're you're thinking about, okay, if if in fact, I've 558 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 1: got three rounds. Most of the time you're not thinking 559 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: you've got one shooter and that it's mind blowing that 560 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:53,680 Speaker 1: you show up and you've got three separate types of 561 00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 1: calibers or gauges that are at the scene. When he 562 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: was finally arrested, he had spent twelve gage shotgun shells 563 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: in his pocket, and that was fascinating to me because 564 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,040 Speaker 1: that demonstrates to me that he has an awareness of 565 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:12,640 Speaker 1: what he's done. He's going around and he's picking up 566 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: spent shell casings. And not only did he have spent 567 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 1: shotgun shell casings, he had rifle shell casings spent in 568 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 1: his pocket. So that goes you know, they stated, you know, 569 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 1: after he had been arrested, that they smelled alcohol on him, 570 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 1: and so any defense attorney that's going to try to say, well, 571 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: he was inebriated beyond the point of understanding what he 572 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: was doing, well, actually, counselor, it could be argued that 573 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: he had an awareness to go back and pick up 574 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:48,279 Speaker 1: any kind of rounds that were in the hall. 575 00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 2: Why would a cop do that, Joe? Why would it 576 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 2: because hey man, he was thinking, yeah, I need to 577 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 2: get the evidence because if he kills all of these guys, 578 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 2: all three of them die and there are no witness 579 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:03,840 Speaker 2: is picking up those shells. He can tell any story 580 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 2: he wants to tell. 581 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, you absolutely can, and you're removing The next step 582 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: you would think probably would be to get rid of 583 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: the weapons at that point in time. You're going to 584 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:15,600 Speaker 1: cut them up, you're going to melt them down, you're 585 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: gonna throw them the river, You're going to do whatever 586 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: it is that you have to do to put as 587 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: much distance, because this guy would have had a basic 588 00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:23,400 Speaker 1: understanding of forensic practice and what we do at the 589 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: crime scenes. And you know, when you have this kind 590 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 1: of event, and this is a this is a very 591 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 1: I know, I use this term alot. It's very dynamic, 592 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: which what I'm saying is a lot of movement is 593 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,359 Speaker 1: going on. You said, Morgan, that's kind of obvious. You're 594 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: damn right, it's obvious because you've got a guy that's 595 00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:47,200 Speaker 1: actively shooting a in a small space in a house, 596 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,640 Speaker 1: and there's three adult males. Now we don't know what 597 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,720 Speaker 1: their status was. We don't know if they were inebriated, 598 00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: we don't know if they were passed out, sleeping, we 599 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,920 Speaker 1: don't know if all three of them were aware, and 600 00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,600 Speaker 1: he lined them up against the wall. But here's the problem. 601 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: He's swapping platforms because we know that one fellow was 602 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,760 Speaker 1: shot with a shotgun, because the guy that actually called 603 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: it in stated there was a man shooting a shotgun 604 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: in the house. He's on the line. This guy actually, 605 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: as you'd mentioned, actually died Dave as he's on the 606 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: phone with nine to eleven. And this scene is going 607 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: to be an absolute mess because I can't imagine that 608 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: he picked up every single shell casing. And there will 609 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: be evidence that you can find. There will be trajectories 610 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,760 Speaker 1: of this rounds that are passing through bodies, passing through walls, 611 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: and when you see this thing demonstrated in court, which 612 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:54,120 Speaker 1: it will be, I'm sure you're going to have all 613 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: of these trajectory patterns that are running all over the 614 00:38:56,680 --> 00:39:00,719 Speaker 1: place because these guys are running for their lives. Individual 615 00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: that shows up astrom he's targeting each one of them. 616 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: The question is was he moving or were they moving 617 00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,160 Speaker 1: or were they both moving at the same time, Because 618 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,160 Speaker 1: you've got multiple possibilities here, and so these trajectories are 619 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: going to be wild. Most of the time. When you 620 00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:21,520 Speaker 1: walk into a scene and you've got a single person 621 00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 1: that's dead and it's as a result of gunfire. You've 622 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: got one central person that is shooting at the other person, 623 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 1: maybe the other person shooting back. But that's it. Now, mathematically, 624 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: you've increased the workload here because you've got three individuals. 625 00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 1: You've got three individuals that are all of their own 626 00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:45,799 Speaker 1: mind moving about or trying to get distance between themselves, 627 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,360 Speaker 1: and the sounds of these weapons going off. 628 00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:52,839 Speaker 2: And it's all inside the house. Yeah, because the fact 629 00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 2: that we know there's a shotgun, we know there's a rifle, 630 00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 2: and we know there's the small pistol. Yeah, that revolver. 631 00:39:58,880 --> 00:39:59,279 Speaker 1: All right? 632 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:01,880 Speaker 2: Did he come in the house with all three of 633 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,759 Speaker 2: those or did he like shoot the guy with a 634 00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,200 Speaker 2: shotgun and then go back to his car and get 635 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,120 Speaker 2: another one? Did he did he use these multiple weapons 636 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 2: to make it look like something else had transpired besides 637 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,960 Speaker 2: just one angry man killing three men? Was it? I'm 638 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 2: trying to think of in any scenario, one person going 639 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 2: in mad, I get it, grabbing the shotgun, I get that, 640 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,840 Speaker 2: But you know, you go in the house, plam, plam, plam. 641 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:34,240 Speaker 2: We got three dead guys. But he's got three dead 642 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 2: guys and three different types of weapons. 643 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:39,959 Speaker 1: No, isn't that fascinating that he would show up because 644 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,279 Speaker 1: you know, to deal with it. And we've talked about 645 00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 1: this in other cases. I know there was one that 646 00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,279 Speaker 1: kind of stands out in my mind where you had 647 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:55,719 Speaker 1: an individual that was carrying both a shotgun and then 648 00:40:55,960 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: it was actually an AR platform weapon. And in the 649 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:03,720 Speaker 1: military they talk a lot about transitioning to weapons because 650 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:06,880 Speaker 1: most of the time in the military and in like 651 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: tactical law enforcement as well, you'll have your primary weapon, 652 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: which is an MP five or it's an a AR 653 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: platform type of weapon that you see see individuals carrying 654 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,359 Speaker 1: same thing in the military that carry M four's, which 655 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: is essentially an AR and then they have a sidearm, 656 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,240 Speaker 1: you know, that's in the holster on their hip. Okay, pistol, 657 00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 1: all right, this guy shows it with three. How do 658 00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,759 Speaker 1: you transition between? Oh, I know what it was what 659 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: I was thinking about. I was thinking about Murdoch because 660 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: you know, there was alow there was he had a 661 00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:48,920 Speaker 1: platform that was a rifle platform and there was a 662 00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,040 Speaker 1: shotgun involved in this. And one of the things that 663 00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:54,239 Speaker 1: people were trying to wrap their mind around, you know, 664 00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,239 Speaker 1: at the kennels and all this sort of thing was 665 00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,719 Speaker 1: him transitioning from one weapon to the other, from one 666 00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: weapon system to the other weapons system, and it's a 667 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,720 Speaker 1: very bulky undertaking. I think this is an interesting point 668 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,919 Speaker 1: that you raised, Dave. Does he show up with three 669 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: weapons because he feels like he needs three weapons or 670 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:14,880 Speaker 1: did he show up with three weapons because he was 671 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 1: going to try to make this appear to be something 672 00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: other than it was. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 673 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 1: is body packs.