WEBVTT - Gilbert King: Bone Valley

0:00:00.600 --> 0:00:05.240
<v Speaker 1>This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

0:00:13.320 --> 0:00:15.440
<v Speaker 2>He sees his father coming out of the woods with

0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:19.200
<v Speaker 2>his hands over his face, and he knows something happened.

0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:27.320
<v Speaker 2>His father just grabs him and says, she's gone. She's gone.

0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.640
<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

0:00:31.720 --> 0:00:34.440
<v Speaker 1>in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:38.320
<v Speaker 1>podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

0:00:38.600 --> 0:00:42.320
<v Speaker 1>research for my many audio and book projects has taken

0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.640
<v Speaker 1>me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:50.400
<v Speaker 1>with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

0:00:50.400 --> 0:00:54.840
<v Speaker 1>and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:58.600
<v Speaker 1>crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.600
<v Speaker 1>good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:07.839
<v Speaker 1>unpublished details behind their stories. We might have our first

0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:11.080
<v Speaker 1>Pulitzer Prize winner on our show Today, author Gilbert King

0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.959
<v Speaker 1>digs into cases of wrongful conviction, and today we're talking

0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:19.880
<v Speaker 1>about his outstanding podcast, Bone Valley season two. Gilbert explores

0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:23.520
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen eighty seven murder of Michelle Schofield in Florida.

0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:28.120
<v Speaker 1>It's a story of justice forgiveness and the possibility of redemption.

0:01:31.040 --> 0:01:36.000
<v Speaker 1>So this story is Lakeland, Florida, nineteen eighty seven. Can

0:01:36.040 --> 0:01:38.600
<v Speaker 1>you tell me what nineteen eighty seven is like? I

0:01:38.640 --> 0:01:41.720
<v Speaker 1>was thirteen, So what was it nineteen eighty seven like

0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:43.000
<v Speaker 1>in Florida or in the nation.

0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:45.319
<v Speaker 2>I was a little bit older than that, but I

0:01:45.400 --> 0:01:47.560
<v Speaker 2>went to college down there. So I used to drive

0:01:47.640 --> 0:01:50.520
<v Speaker 2>through Lakeland, and I remember Lakeland is just this kind

0:01:50.520 --> 0:01:54.040
<v Speaker 2>of hard rock capital of Florida. They used to have

0:01:54.160 --> 0:01:57.720
<v Speaker 2>Lakely Civic Center had this heavy metal fetish. I guess

0:01:57.760 --> 0:01:59.680
<v Speaker 2>you'd say they had. Everybody would show up, you know,

0:01:59.720 --> 0:02:02.160
<v Speaker 2>my crew, you name it. They were there and it

0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.080
<v Speaker 2>was like the place. And so you know, just driving

0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.800
<v Speaker 2>past your radio ads, you know, these are the days

0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.280
<v Speaker 2>before cell phones and concerts were really huge. A lot

0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.320
<v Speaker 2>of metal bands were big, and they were all playing

0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.600
<v Speaker 2>in Lakeland. Lakeland is kind of like the poor stepchild

0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.800
<v Speaker 2>between Tampa and Orlando. It's a smaller little town and

0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.680
<v Speaker 2>it's right off eye for the car door between Orlando

0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.800
<v Speaker 2>and Tampa, and so it's a little bit more rural too.

0:02:26.919 --> 0:02:30.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean, back then, a lot of orange growths, a

0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:33.760
<v Speaker 2>lot of phosphate business, agriculture, whereas you know, Tampa and

0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.000
<v Speaker 2>Orlando were a little more thriving in terms of urban centers,

0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:40.160
<v Speaker 2>so that was pretty much it. Lakeland was just I've

0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:42.960
<v Speaker 2>got every part of America really, you know, it was

0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.160
<v Speaker 2>just had everything you could imagine, but it was more

0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:48.840
<v Speaker 2>of a rural community and you know, the nineteen eighties,

0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:50.840
<v Speaker 2>there's no cell phones. It's just a little bit of

0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:54.400
<v Speaker 2>a different vibe. And I really love the heavy metal

0:02:54.440 --> 0:02:57.480
<v Speaker 2>aspect because Leo Schofield, who's at the center of it,

0:02:57.560 --> 0:02:59.840
<v Speaker 2>is this Boston kid who moves down to Florida with

0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:02.040
<v Speaker 2>the parents, doesn't really want to leave New England, but

0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.600
<v Speaker 2>there he is. He's got the thick Boston accent and

0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:07.919
<v Speaker 2>he's a heavy metal dude, long hair. He's aspiring musician.

0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:10.520
<v Speaker 2>He plays lead guitar. He's in a band.

0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:14.359
<v Speaker 1>Called Rhino Okay, so, and he is not an outcast

0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:16.480
<v Speaker 1>in this town which we hear from sometimes it sounds

0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:17.880
<v Speaker 1>like he fits right into this place.

0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:19.880
<v Speaker 2>Well in some ways he does, because he's got this

0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:22.600
<v Speaker 2>music connection and he's a very good guitarist, so bands

0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:25.680
<v Speaker 2>wanted him and he plays the part really well. You know,

0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.720
<v Speaker 2>he's thin guy, long black hair, twenty years old. He's

0:03:29.720 --> 0:03:32.000
<v Speaker 2>just good at what he does. But on the other hand,

0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:34.560
<v Speaker 2>he comes down here from Boston and he's like, I

0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:37.400
<v Speaker 2>don't get the cowboy hats. I don't get these gator shirts,

0:03:37.440 --> 0:03:39.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, like I don't have a pickup truck. I'm

0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.080
<v Speaker 2>not that kind of guy. Like I'm a motorcycle riding

0:03:42.200 --> 0:03:45.480
<v Speaker 2>you know. Jean's vest heavy metal dude. So he really

0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:48.000
<v Speaker 2>had to look for his tribe, so to speak. And

0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.240
<v Speaker 2>he does find it in these bandmates. That becomes his thing.

0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.240
<v Speaker 2>But you know, he doesn't feel comfortable there. He drops

0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.600
<v Speaker 2>out of high school, starts doing odd jobs. He's all

0:03:55.640 --> 0:03:58.160
<v Speaker 2>about doing the music. He sees that as his.

0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:02.120
<v Speaker 1>Career, okay, and he ends up meeting a young woman

0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.800
<v Speaker 1>is Michelle from Lakeland, Florida.

0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.000
<v Speaker 2>Also yes, she got born and raised in Lakeland. She

0:04:08.040 --> 0:04:11.200
<v Speaker 2>grew up there, you know. And Leo first meets her.

0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.760
<v Speaker 2>I think she's sixteen years old. He's going there to

0:04:13.760 --> 0:04:18.440
<v Speaker 2>give this friend to his Manny guitar lessons. And Mannie

0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.680
<v Speaker 2>is kind of like Michelle's boyfriend, except Manny's got his

0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:23.919
<v Speaker 2>eyes on a lot of other girls. He's not really

0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.239
<v Speaker 2>paying attention. It was kind of like this good looking

0:04:26.279 --> 0:04:29.640
<v Speaker 2>serfer dude, and you know, Michelle is just one of

0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:32.880
<v Speaker 2>his many girls, I guess you would say. But Leo

0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.520
<v Speaker 2>just is struck by her immediately when he meets her.

0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.360
<v Speaker 2>But Manny gets himself into some trouble and goes off

0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.760
<v Speaker 2>to a juvenile facility for some kind of I don't

0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:42.920
<v Speaker 2>really know what it was. It involved a gun, nobody

0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:45.240
<v Speaker 2>was killed or anything like that, but he's looking at

0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.719
<v Speaker 2>a long, lengthy sentence. And when he finally goes away

0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.440
<v Speaker 2>to this juvenile detention center in Florida, Michelle is kind

0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.320
<v Speaker 2>of lonely and she meets Leo, and you know, they

0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.320
<v Speaker 2>start hanging out as friends and coming to concerts and

0:04:57.320 --> 0:05:00.440
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. But as time goes by, see they're

0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.600
<v Speaker 2>spending a lot of time together. They're clearly interested in

0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:06.279
<v Speaker 2>each other. And so with Manny gone, Leo decides, Okay,

0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:08.640
<v Speaker 2>I guess we can do this, and you know, right

0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:10.520
<v Speaker 2>away they're practically living together.

0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.800
<v Speaker 1>Wow, and so young too. What do we know about

0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.320
<v Speaker 1>Michelle personality wise? What kind of family she came from,

0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:18.240
<v Speaker 1>any of that stuff?

0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:21.160
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, she comes with a broke from a broken family.

0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.719
<v Speaker 2>Her mom and dad divorced. Mom moves back to Texas,

0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:27.039
<v Speaker 2>gets in a really bad car accident and has some

0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of brain damage. So it's Michelle and her two

0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:32.400
<v Speaker 2>older brother, a younger brother and an older brother, and

0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:36.039
<v Speaker 2>they're living in Lakeland. But you know, the dad is

0:05:36.400 --> 0:05:39.640
<v Speaker 2>works in the phosphate minds. He runs a dragline. He's

0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.960
<v Speaker 2>got really long hours. So they're kind of got a

0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.600
<v Speaker 2>lot of freedom, and Leo's not used to that kind

0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:48.000
<v Speaker 2>of freedom. Leo's parents are very involved, but Michelle can

0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:50.800
<v Speaker 2>pretty much come and go as she pleases. They looked

0:05:50.839 --> 0:05:53.520
<v Speaker 2>at their father, David, as a sort of like a

0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:56.440
<v Speaker 2>roommate rather than a father. You know, he was pretty

0:05:56.480 --> 0:05:59.279
<v Speaker 2>lax about that. But the kids weren't in trouble or anything.

0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:01.520
<v Speaker 2>They were, you know, good kids. But they're really on

0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:04.680
<v Speaker 2>their own. Michelle was working in fast food or she

0:06:04.800 --> 0:06:07.960
<v Speaker 2>was selling Amway products, you know, even at fifteen, sixteen

0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.680
<v Speaker 2>years old, so she's off pretty much on her own.

0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.200
<v Speaker 2>And when she meets Leo, they you know, they're they're

0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:15.360
<v Speaker 2>dating right away, and they decide they just want to

0:06:15.400 --> 0:06:18.280
<v Speaker 2>get their own place because they both have jobs. And

0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:22.080
<v Speaker 2>so they get a trailer in a low income area

0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:25.960
<v Speaker 2>of Lakeland and move in together and start living their

0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:26.640
<v Speaker 2>life that way.

0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.440
<v Speaker 1>And tell me again, as far as aspirations. Do either

0:06:29.480 --> 0:06:32.080
<v Speaker 1>of these kids have aspirations? I know that it sounds

0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:34.560
<v Speaker 1>Leo really wants to stay in music, right, Yeah.

0:06:34.640 --> 0:06:37.119
<v Speaker 2>Leo's definitely like he's got heavy metal on his mind.

0:06:37.560 --> 0:06:39.680
<v Speaker 2>He's in this band, right, I know they're practicing all

0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.560
<v Speaker 2>the time. Michelle not so much. She's still trying to

0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:44.120
<v Speaker 2>figure things out. You know, at this point, she just

0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:48.040
<v Speaker 2>turned seventeen, and you know, she does like metal music

0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:50.839
<v Speaker 2>and she does like to sing, but she's really figuring

0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.760
<v Speaker 2>herself out. But you know, the relationship with Leo and

0:06:54.120 --> 0:06:56.640
<v Speaker 2>she sort of falls into the homemaker role at early.

0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.839
<v Speaker 2>It's at seventeen. I mean, she's just she's got that down,

0:07:00.120 --> 0:07:02.920
<v Speaker 2>works a job. She gets this new job at Tom's restaurant.

0:07:02.960 --> 0:07:06.080
<v Speaker 2>She's a waitress there, and and everything's going, you know,

0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:08.640
<v Speaker 2>well with her, except you know Leo. And Leo's kind

0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:11.360
<v Speaker 2>of a volatile guy, and that's sort of a key

0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:14.120
<v Speaker 2>to the whole story. He's got a temper. You know,

0:07:14.160 --> 0:07:17.040
<v Speaker 2>he talked to his bandmates and like at one point

0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.520
<v Speaker 2>there was one girl that he was dating and in

0:07:19.560 --> 0:07:22.040
<v Speaker 2>the middle of a concert he saw her flash another

0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.240
<v Speaker 2>guy lift her top up and let that sets Leo off,

0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.960
<v Speaker 2>you know, he runs off the stage, throws his guitar

0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.680
<v Speaker 2>into a bonfire, storms into the woods. He's a very

0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:33.480
<v Speaker 2>temperamental guy. And you know, they talk him back out,

0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:35.720
<v Speaker 2>come back to the concert. Come on, Leo, it's okay.

0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.480
<v Speaker 2>They pull the guitar out of the bonfires, still got

0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:41.560
<v Speaker 2>burn marks on it. He still plays it, you know.

0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:44.680
<v Speaker 2>And so that pretty much describes Leo, who's like I

0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:46.600
<v Speaker 2>think he's like nineteen or twenty at the time when

0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:47.160
<v Speaker 2>this happened.

0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:50.239
<v Speaker 1>Wow, okay, I was going to ask what the general

0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.600
<v Speaker 1>impressions are a family and friends of their relationship. Is

0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:55.920
<v Speaker 1>he volatile with her very much?

0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:59.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yeah, they're They're known to fight, and Leo's got

0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.040
<v Speaker 2>a temper. And you know, roommates who'd come into the

0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:04.560
<v Speaker 2>trailer and all say the same thing, like they'd hear

0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.680
<v Speaker 2>the door shut, they'd hear crashing, slamming, throwing things around,

0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.560
<v Speaker 2>and you know they nobody ever saw That's the thing

0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.760
<v Speaker 2>like that, nobody really ever saw Leo hit her or

0:08:12.760 --> 0:08:15.680
<v Speaker 2>anything like that, but they assumed it was happening, something

0:08:15.760 --> 0:08:18.080
<v Speaker 2>was going on, and like he had a really bad temper,

0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:21.480
<v Speaker 2>and most of his temper was based around the fact

0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:24.160
<v Speaker 2>that Michelle didn't have a driver's license. She had a

0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:27.280
<v Speaker 2>learning permit, so she wasn't supposed to be driving the car,

0:08:27.560 --> 0:08:29.920
<v Speaker 2>but Leo had to get a car, and so she

0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.800
<v Speaker 2>would often take the car and go out and disappear,

0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and Leo had no way of knowing where she was,

0:08:35.960 --> 0:08:38.600
<v Speaker 2>and it would scare him because one time she got

0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:40.440
<v Speaker 2>and pulled over by police and they kind of let

0:08:40.480 --> 0:08:42.920
<v Speaker 2>her go with a warning. But you know, she would

0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.000
<v Speaker 2>just take the car all the time and go off

0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.480
<v Speaker 2>with friends, and Leo saw that as a problem because

0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:50.880
<v Speaker 2>she didn't have insurance and she wasn't really licensed, and

0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.480
<v Speaker 2>so Leo just said, just check in with me, let

0:08:53.480 --> 0:08:55.520
<v Speaker 2>me know where you are, And that was one of

0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.520
<v Speaker 2>the things that they thought about the most.

0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Has anybody interpreted that in intead of him being kind

0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.040
<v Speaker 1>of just concerned about her getting picked up of the

0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.320
<v Speaker 1>police or wrecking the car or doing any number of

0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:09.080
<v Speaker 1>things that someone might has that been interpreted ever as

0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:13.160
<v Speaker 1>him being increasingly controlling over a young woman that he married.

0:09:13.240 --> 0:09:16.160
<v Speaker 2>Also, Yeah, and he admits it too. You know, he

0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:17.960
<v Speaker 2>just said, I was immature, I didn't really know, I

0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:20.600
<v Speaker 2>was not ready for a relationship. What ended up happening

0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:23.319
<v Speaker 2>was because they were fighting they decided to go to

0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.360
<v Speaker 2>a church. They had a fellow painter that Leo was

0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:28.280
<v Speaker 2>doing odd jobs with, and he said, you ought to

0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:30.600
<v Speaker 2>come and check out this Baptist church, and so Leo

0:09:30.679 --> 0:09:34.600
<v Speaker 2>did and they went together and they liked it. But

0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:36.480
<v Speaker 2>one of the things the church said is you're living

0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:39.280
<v Speaker 2>together in sin, you got to get married. And they

0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:41.360
<v Speaker 2>have really only known each other for a few months,

0:09:41.960 --> 0:09:44.040
<v Speaker 2>and they kind of felt some pressure from the church

0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:47.200
<v Speaker 2>to sort of, you know, solidify their relationship by marrying.

0:09:47.960 --> 0:09:50.360
<v Speaker 2>And Leo was like, you know, I love her. I

0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:53.120
<v Speaker 2>was nineteen twenty. Do I want to spend the rest

0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:56.200
<v Speaker 2>of my life? Leo said, you know, frankly, I do.

0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:58.320
<v Speaker 2>I really this is a good different girl from me.

0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.400
<v Speaker 2>I really liked her because I wasn't sure a Shell

0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:03.280
<v Speaker 2>was ready for marriage though, and we talked about it

0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:07.160
<v Speaker 2>and she said she's ready. And so they decided to

0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.840
<v Speaker 2>get married very quickly, put together within a matter of

0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.040
<v Speaker 2>I think two weeks, borrowed some clothes from like other

0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:16.360
<v Speaker 2>parishioners who had recently got married, and they put together

0:10:16.480 --> 0:10:18.240
<v Speaker 2>this wedding really quick, and the next thing you know,

0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.600
<v Speaker 2>they're newlyweds and living in this trailer together comeby section

0:10:21.679 --> 0:10:22.280
<v Speaker 2>of Lakeland.

0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.480
<v Speaker 1>So how long are they married before what happens happens?

0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:29.400
<v Speaker 2>Right, So they get married in August of eighty six.

0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.560
<v Speaker 2>They're living in this trailer. Six months later is when

0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:37.840
<v Speaker 2>Leo goes into band practice. One night, he worked all

0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:40.600
<v Speaker 2>day with the drummer's father. He did, like laid down

0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.360
<v Speaker 2>lines for a cable company, and they had band practice

0:10:44.400 --> 0:10:47.320
<v Speaker 2>this night, February twenty fourth, nineteen eighty seven. You know,

0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.360
<v Speaker 2>they don't have a phone in the trailer, so all

0:10:50.400 --> 0:10:52.680
<v Speaker 2>their calls are sort of calling at Vince's house, and

0:10:52.800 --> 0:10:54.960
<v Speaker 2>whenever they call, they had to call from a payphone

0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:58.679
<v Speaker 2>at a gas station. But on this particular night, Leo's

0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:01.800
<v Speaker 2>waiting at band practice. Arrangements like, after you finish your

0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.640
<v Speaker 2>shift to Tom's restaurant, come by the band practice, hang

0:11:04.679 --> 0:11:06.120
<v Speaker 2>out with us, then we'll go out and grab something

0:11:06.160 --> 0:11:09.280
<v Speaker 2>to eat. That was the plan. But Michelle's shift ended

0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.160
<v Speaker 2>at eight pm and Leo doesn't hear, so he's kind

0:11:13.200 --> 0:11:15.560
<v Speaker 2>of already getting worried. Look, she knows to call here,

0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:19.200
<v Speaker 2>she knew the number. Where is she? Nobody really knew.

0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:23.120
<v Speaker 2>But at nine forty five pm, finally Michelle calls, and

0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.480
<v Speaker 2>she calls on the payphone. She says, look, I finished

0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.960
<v Speaker 2>my shift at eight, I went home, I did the laundry,

0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.640
<v Speaker 2>I fed the dogs, and now I'm ready to come over.

0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:33.960
<v Speaker 2>And Leo's like, great, thank you for calling. This is

0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:36.080
<v Speaker 2>like you know, He's saying to her, like, this is great.

0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Now we don't have to have a fight because you

0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:39.680
<v Speaker 2>called me and everything worked out. I know where you

0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.520
<v Speaker 2>are and she should be there within about ten or

0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.640
<v Speaker 2>fifteen minutes, and she said she'd be right over. The

0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:47.960
<v Speaker 2>phone call ends with both of them saying I love you.

0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:52.520
<v Speaker 2>Ten fifteen minutes pass no sign of Michelle. An hour passes,

0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.440
<v Speaker 2>no sign of Michelle, and now Leo is starting to

0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.360
<v Speaker 2>panic because this is not like her usually when something

0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.120
<v Speaker 2>like this happens. She said I'll be right over or

0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.040
<v Speaker 2>she's calming, but she hasn't shown. And now it's like

0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:07.240
<v Speaker 2>eleven PM, eleven thirty, and Leo's getting really worried. He

0:12:07.320 --> 0:12:09.120
<v Speaker 2>calls his father and said, Dad, you got to come

0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.160
<v Speaker 2>get me. I don't know where Michelle is. She said

0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:12.640
<v Speaker 2>she'd be right over. I don't know if her car

0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.600
<v Speaker 2>broke down, if she got an accident. He starts making

0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:19.240
<v Speaker 2>some phone calls. There's three hours that pass, and Leo

0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:21.720
<v Speaker 2>is just hanging out with his friends and there's no

0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:22.520
<v Speaker 2>sign of Michelle.

0:12:22.840 --> 0:12:24.680
<v Speaker 1>Tell me where she made that phone call from again,

0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:25.200
<v Speaker 1>I'm sorry.

0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:27.920
<v Speaker 2>She made it from a gas station called Sparky's, which

0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.800
<v Speaker 2>was right across the street from Tom's restaurant where she

0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.160
<v Speaker 2>was working, and that was sort of the closest one

0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:35.319
<v Speaker 2>to their house, so they used to use that one

0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:35.760
<v Speaker 2>the most.

0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.800
<v Speaker 1>So she never ended up going back to the trailer.

0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:40.840
<v Speaker 1>She was supposed to go straight from the restaurant. Is

0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:41.280
<v Speaker 1>that right?

0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:43.480
<v Speaker 2>She was supposed to come straight from the restaurant. But

0:12:43.520 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 2>she did say, like, I had to do someth like

0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:47.480
<v Speaker 2>just some laundry at my dad's house earlier that day,

0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and I went back and folded it. And then they

0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.160
<v Speaker 2>had two little puppies, and so she went back and

0:12:52.200 --> 0:12:55.000
<v Speaker 2>walked them and fed them and did some stuff. And

0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.000
<v Speaker 2>she stayed till like nine forty five, that's when she

0:12:57.040 --> 0:12:58.960
<v Speaker 2>got back to the gas station. It was a little

0:12:59.040 --> 0:13:01.360
<v Speaker 2>late for Leo's taste, but he knew he was supposed

0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:02.880
<v Speaker 2>to be. He knew he was going to be practicing

0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:04.000
<v Speaker 2>to at least ten anyway.

0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:07.679
<v Speaker 1>So just for a practical question for later on, are

0:13:07.679 --> 0:13:10.880
<v Speaker 1>there people who see her making this phone call from

0:13:10.920 --> 0:13:14.319
<v Speaker 1>Sparky's to him at whatever time that was.

0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.120
<v Speaker 2>No because Sparky's is closed at this hour. She had

0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.760
<v Speaker 2>gone in there earlier after a shift change. She got

0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>three dollars worth of gas and she bought a coke.

0:13:23.440 --> 0:13:25.600
<v Speaker 2>And so she told Leo on the phone. She made

0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:30.320
<v Speaker 2>thirteen dollars in tips because she called at the friend's house,

0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:32.360
<v Speaker 2>and there are a lot of witnesses there who like

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of heard the conversation. There was like no doubt

0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.760
<v Speaker 2>that that had happened. Even the state later on said,

0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:40.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, we agree that that happened, you know, and

0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.120
<v Speaker 2>they could mark time at nine forty five, and so yeah,

0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:45.920
<v Speaker 2>there was no real dispute about that call.

0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:50.160
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So she vanishes, but she has the car, the

0:13:50.200 --> 0:13:51.360
<v Speaker 1>family car, right.

0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Right, And that's the thing. So Leo just like, I'm

0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:55.680
<v Speaker 2>going to just trace the steps, and so they try.

0:13:55.760 --> 0:13:59.680
<v Speaker 2>He tries with his father around eleven thirty. They drive

0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.720
<v Speaker 2>out closer to midnight. Actually they're driving around trying to

0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:05.320
<v Speaker 2>retrace the steps, driving by friend's house and seeing if

0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:07.760
<v Speaker 2>they could see any sign of a car. They drive

0:14:07.800 --> 0:14:10.920
<v Speaker 2>past Leo's trailer. They don't see it. There there's no

0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:13.280
<v Speaker 2>sign of them. This is worrying. So they go back

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.360
<v Speaker 2>to Vince's thinking, all, right, now, the time before cellphone,

0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.000
<v Speaker 2>she couldn't check in with Vince, right, So they go

0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:20.960
<v Speaker 2>back to Vince's house and say, well, that's where she

0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 2>was likely headed. We should go back there. And they

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:25.400
<v Speaker 2>get there and there's still no sign of her, and

0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.440
<v Speaker 2>Leo is getting really worried. At this point, his father

0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.320
<v Speaker 2>waits out in the truck in the driveway. Leo goes

0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.160
<v Speaker 2>inside and decides he's got to start making some calls.

0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:38.160
<v Speaker 2>At twelve forty three am, he calls the Sheriff's office,

0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh County Sheriff's office, and he reports her missing. And

0:14:41.840 --> 0:14:44.600
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of frustrating because at this point she's eighteen

0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 2>years old now, so it's not like it's a child

0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:51.720
<v Speaker 2>that's missing. They take the information, but there's not much

0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:53.200
<v Speaker 2>they can do it. They check in the jail to

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.640
<v Speaker 2>see if maybe she got arrested for driving, you know,

0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.600
<v Speaker 2>without a license. She wasn't there. There's no sign of

0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.800
<v Speaker 2>any accidents are in the neighbors, so there's nothing going

0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.320
<v Speaker 2>on like that. Leo made some phone calls to the

0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.520
<v Speaker 2>hospitals just to see if there had been any kind

0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.480
<v Speaker 2>of accident and no sign of her, and the sheriff's

0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.200
<v Speaker 2>office just takes all the information but basically says, there's

0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 2>not much we can do. We'll put out a bolo,

0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, be on the lookout for but you know,

0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 2>there's not much we can do. But if we do

0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:19.880
<v Speaker 2>see her, the books we can do is really tell

0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.120
<v Speaker 2>her we're looking for. So that's not enough for Leo.

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:26.440
<v Speaker 2>The Leo wants action. He's really worried. After he hangs

0:15:26.520 --> 0:15:28.200
<v Speaker 2>up the phone, he goes out with his father and

0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:29.760
<v Speaker 2>they start looking around again.

0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.880
<v Speaker 1>How many people are in Lakeland? Tell me how big

0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:33.960
<v Speaker 1>of a place this is? Again?

0:15:34.200 --> 0:15:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean the population today I think is over

0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.360
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand. Yeah, but you know, a little bit

0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.200
<v Speaker 2>smaller back then. There is a city of Lakeland, and

0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:43.680
<v Speaker 2>that's sort of where they are. But Lakeland is a

0:15:43.960 --> 0:15:46.640
<v Speaker 2>polk county is right in the middle of Florida, and

0:15:46.680 --> 0:15:48.960
<v Speaker 2>it's huge. It's bigger than the state of Rhode Island.

0:15:49.600 --> 0:15:52.320
<v Speaker 2>And most of it is just rural, you know, farmland

0:15:52.360 --> 0:15:55.200
<v Speaker 2>and stuff like that. But they're in the city of Lakeland.

0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:59.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Now, will you tell me what is possible of

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.200
<v Speaker 1>these things in nineteen eighty seven, because I'm just not sure.

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.600
<v Speaker 1>That's way too modern of a time for me. Does

0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:08.280
<v Speaker 1>Sparkys or anybody near Sparkys like Tom's, do they have

0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:11.160
<v Speaker 1>any kind of exterior security cameras or anything.

0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:15.160
<v Speaker 2>No, there's no cameras back then at all. There's just

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.000
<v Speaker 2>really nothing back then. No cell phones, no mounted cameras,

0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 2>you know, on the street lights or outside stores, so

0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:22.840
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing to check on that. I think it's a

0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:24.320
<v Speaker 2>lot of why a lot of my friends who are

0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:27.560
<v Speaker 2>mystery writers set their stuff in the eighties, because you

0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:31.200
<v Speaker 2>don't have the chips that tell you where you were doing.

0:16:31.960 --> 0:16:34.520
<v Speaker 2>It was an easier time to have a crime because

0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.720
<v Speaker 2>they're just tougher to document. And so you know, I

0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.760
<v Speaker 2>ended up talking to the sheriff of Paulk County, Grady Judd,

0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:42.720
<v Speaker 2>who you'd probably seen. He goes viral a lot. He's

0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.560
<v Speaker 2>like a tough talk in Lauren Ordered, Florida sheriff, and

0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.840
<v Speaker 2>we interviewed him and I said, look, I need you

0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:50.520
<v Speaker 2>to put your historians hat on, because you were in

0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.080
<v Speaker 2>the sheriff department in the eighties yourself as a young deputy.

0:16:54.520 --> 0:16:56.400
<v Speaker 2>And he said, you know, it was just impossible to

0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.360
<v Speaker 2>solve crimes unless somebody spoke up. Back then, you just

0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:02.120
<v Speaker 2>didn't have cameras, you didn't have cell phone data, you

0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:04.879
<v Speaker 2>didn't have any of that stuff. Unless somebody saw something,

0:17:05.000 --> 0:17:07.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, a lot of cases would go unsolved. And

0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:10.440
<v Speaker 2>at this particular time in Lakeland, they had a white

0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:13.600
<v Speaker 2>supremacist sheriff who was forced out of office by the governor,

0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.440
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of detectives and deputies kind of quit.

0:17:16.680 --> 0:17:19.800
<v Speaker 2>This was right at the time of you know, Michelle disappearing,

0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:21.919
<v Speaker 2>right and so it was they were in a lot

0:17:21.960 --> 0:17:22.720
<v Speaker 2>of turmoil there.

0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:22.960
<v Speaker 1>They did.

0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:26.280
<v Speaker 2>They didn't have a lot of manpower, and so they're

0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of short shifted, and so that was played into

0:17:28.720 --> 0:17:30.320
<v Speaker 2>it too. They just they were getting a lot of

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:32.720
<v Speaker 2>unsolved murders right around the time because they just couldn't

0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:33.360
<v Speaker 2>keep up with them.

0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 1>I had just talked to a detective in a different city.

0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm in Texas, and he said, you know, when somebody

0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.679
<v Speaker 1>goes missing, you really should tell the police immediately. Everyone

0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:45.640
<v Speaker 1>thinks you have to wait twenty four hours or forty

0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.399
<v Speaker 1>eight hours, but especially if it's somebody at risk and

0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:50.880
<v Speaker 1>outside the norm, you really should talk to them sooner.

0:17:51.680 --> 0:17:54.679
<v Speaker 1>What about Michelle when do they start thinking this is

0:17:54.960 --> 0:17:58.240
<v Speaker 1>this is more than just a wife who wandered off somewhere.

0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:01.720
<v Speaker 2>I would say immediately. I mean when she doesn't show up,

0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.480
<v Speaker 2>Leo has like a couple of calls to the sheriff's office.

0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:06.960
<v Speaker 2>He's checking in and they're like, mister Schofield, we told

0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:09.679
<v Speaker 2>you there's nothing we can do unless we run into her,

0:18:09.800 --> 0:18:13.240
<v Speaker 2>you know. But he's really frustrated. He wants a search,

0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:15.520
<v Speaker 2>and they're saying, we don't do searches, like we're not

0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.480
<v Speaker 2>there yet, and so it's basically putting together friends and

0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.600
<v Speaker 2>family retracing the roads like the you know, Leo's out

0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.680
<v Speaker 2>all night that night with his father and his mother,

0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.520
<v Speaker 2>driving around. They show up at like Michelle's father's house

0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:31.160
<v Speaker 2>at two twenty in the morning, knocking on the door.

0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.720
<v Speaker 2>You know, we can't find Michelle. We can't find Michelle.

0:18:34.080 --> 0:18:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Mielle's father comes out to the search. He's driving around town.

0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.200
<v Speaker 2>He sees two deputies cars parked at a gas station.

0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:43.280
<v Speaker 2>He runs over there and says, I'm looking for my wife.

0:18:43.280 --> 0:18:45.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, did you see have you heard anything? And

0:18:45.040 --> 0:18:47.240
<v Speaker 2>they're like, we don't have any report of any missing person.

0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.960
<v Speaker 2>He's getting really frustrated, like called this in a couple

0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:52.960
<v Speaker 2>of times. Nobody's doing anything, and you know, they're basically saying,

0:18:52.960 --> 0:18:55.360
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing we can do, and so it's really frustrating.

0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:58.240
<v Speaker 2>It's a search by friends and family. So the next

0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:00.600
<v Speaker 2>morning they kind of put together search to they're all

0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.000
<v Speaker 2>out looking. They put together flyers, they're distributing them all

0:19:04.040 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>over town. They're doing like everything you could imagine that

0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.520
<v Speaker 2>can be done. And Leo's like not sleeping. He's frantic,

0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:14.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, he's looking everywhere, calling friends, trying to see

0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:15.960
<v Speaker 2>where Michelle could be.

0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.560
<v Speaker 1>What do the people at Tom's, at that restaurant she

0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:21.879
<v Speaker 1>worked out? What did they say her night was like?

0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:24.680
<v Speaker 1>They said it was basically like any other night. She

0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.080
<v Speaker 1>was originally going to work till five. They extended her

0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:30.439
<v Speaker 1>shift to eight because it was kind of busy. You know,

0:19:30.480 --> 0:19:31.760
<v Speaker 1>they all saw her leave, They.

0:19:31.640 --> 0:19:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Saw her go across the street to Sparky's, and even

0:19:35.000 --> 0:19:37.520
<v Speaker 2>the clerk at Sparkys was in her. She remembered that

0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.760
<v Speaker 2>she remembered Michelle coming in after work and buying the

0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:43.000
<v Speaker 2>coke and the gas when they asked her later, So

0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:45.360
<v Speaker 2>there's no doubt about that. And then she she only

0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:47.919
<v Speaker 2>lived a couple miles away, so she went back to

0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.240
<v Speaker 2>the house, fed the dogs and all that. So the

0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:54.040
<v Speaker 2>people at Tom's didn't really have anything to add, nothing suspicious.

0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Did anybody look at Leo sooner rather than later? Maybe

0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:01.040
<v Speaker 1>her family, even though I know they were not as

0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:02.640
<v Speaker 1>involved as Leo's family.

0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.800
<v Speaker 2>Is, surprisingly not right away, because Leo was the one

0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:07.840
<v Speaker 2>who was like sort of the impetus behind the searching.

0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:11.479
<v Speaker 2>He was the one pushing everybody and so, and you know,

0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:14.480
<v Speaker 2>he was constantly calling the police, like constantly checking in

0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.680
<v Speaker 2>with them. His behavior didn't really rattle anyone. In fact,

0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.000
<v Speaker 2>they kind of said to him HERU like, calm down,

0:20:20.359 --> 0:20:23.040
<v Speaker 2>She's gonna be all right. She runs off sometimes she's

0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.840
<v Speaker 2>done this before, you know that. But Leo was really

0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:29.679
<v Speaker 2>particularly worried about this time for some reason, because she

0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:32.320
<v Speaker 2>called and said she'd be right over. This didn't seem

0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:34.320
<v Speaker 2>like one of those things where she was off with friends.

0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.359
<v Speaker 2>And to be frank, they could not find any reports

0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:41.280
<v Speaker 2>or any evidence that she was out of friend nobody.

0:20:41.560 --> 0:20:43.560
<v Speaker 2>None of her friends had seen her, and that's what

0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.440
<v Speaker 2>they thought was really strange, Like she disappeared, but there

0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:48.520
<v Speaker 2>was no accounts of like, yeah, I'm having a fight

0:20:48.560 --> 0:20:50.480
<v Speaker 2>with Leo. I just had to get away, like she's

0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:52.920
<v Speaker 2>nowhere to be seen, like no one could find her,

0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:54.520
<v Speaker 2>and that all her friends are now searching.

0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 1>How many days does this go on before something changes?

0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:05.040
<v Speaker 2>It extends into a second day, So she goes missing,

0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.160
<v Speaker 2>twenty four hours goes by, nothing goes into the second day.

0:21:09.320 --> 0:21:12.200
<v Speaker 2>One of Leo's former bandmates, it was a guy named

0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.320
<v Speaker 2>Chris Peck and he worked in Orlando and he was

0:21:15.440 --> 0:21:18.440
<v Speaker 2>driving home from work and he saw what he thought

0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:22.600
<v Speaker 2>was Michelle's Mazda station Wagon broken down on the side

0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.720
<v Speaker 2>of the road, or at least park there, and he

0:21:25.800 --> 0:21:29.159
<v Speaker 2>was tempted to stop and write a haha note because

0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.480
<v Speaker 2>Leo's car would constantly break down and he wanted to

0:21:32.480 --> 0:21:34.440
<v Speaker 2>just leave a note on the lunshield like ha ha,

0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.159
<v Speaker 2>you broke down again, something like that, And so he

0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:38.600
<v Speaker 2>was thinking about that, but it was on the other

0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:40.680
<v Speaker 2>side of the highway and he was trying to get home.

0:21:41.160 --> 0:21:44.440
<v Speaker 2>But he gets down to Lakeland and coincidentally pulls into

0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.520
<v Speaker 2>that same Sparky's and sees a flyer with Michelle's picture

0:21:48.520 --> 0:21:51.800
<v Speaker 2>on it saying missing, Help find me. And at that

0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:55.119
<v Speaker 2>point he's like, oh no, and so His first thought

0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:59.000
<v Speaker 2>is he sees the detective's number for the Polk County

0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Sheriff's office, and he calls there and tells them that

0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:04.760
<v Speaker 2>he just saw the car that Michelle was driving. But

0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:08.040
<v Speaker 2>they're like, not really searching. It doesn't really register, and

0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.240
<v Speaker 2>so the next thing he does is called Leo and

0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:12.919
<v Speaker 2>tries to get a message to him, you know, like

0:22:13.040 --> 0:22:15.080
<v Speaker 2>I just saw your car on the side of I four,

0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.399
<v Speaker 2>And he gets it over to Leo's parents and finally

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:21.000
<v Speaker 2>they get back to him later that night and he

0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 2>tells him I saw the Masta on the side of

0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:26.439
<v Speaker 2>I four at this exit. And so Leo, his father,

0:22:26.640 --> 0:22:28.760
<v Speaker 2>a couple of friends they rush out to the scene

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.320
<v Speaker 2>and there's the Mazda. It's broken down about seven miles

0:22:32.440 --> 0:22:35.960
<v Speaker 2>outside of Lakeland on the way towards Orlando, and it's

0:22:36.040 --> 0:22:38.639
<v Speaker 2>just sitting there and they look at it. They already

0:22:38.680 --> 0:22:41.000
<v Speaker 2>know like, don't touch it. They're smart enough about that.

0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:44.200
<v Speaker 2>So there's a gas station up on a hill right

0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:47.560
<v Speaker 2>near the exit. Leo walks up the hill and calls

0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:49.600
<v Speaker 2>the Polk County Sheriff's office and says, you know, I

0:22:49.720 --> 0:22:52.600
<v Speaker 2>found the car. My wife is not here. She's nowhere

0:22:52.600 --> 0:22:54.600
<v Speaker 2>to be found. You've got to send somebody out here.

0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:56.560
<v Speaker 2>And you know, the cops are like, well, are you

0:22:56.560 --> 0:22:58.320
<v Speaker 2>going to drive the car home then? And he's like,

0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:00.840
<v Speaker 2>you don't understand she's missing. We just found her car.

0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.080
<v Speaker 2>It takes a while for it to sink in and finally,

0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, detectives finally show up and they think what

0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.359
<v Speaker 2>they see what might be blood in the back seat,

0:23:10.440 --> 0:23:13.440
<v Speaker 2>like in the back hatchback, and so they're still careful

0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:15.960
<v Speaker 2>not to touch anything, but they point that out, you know,

0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.639
<v Speaker 2>to the detectives. At this point, now it's going to

0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:21.840
<v Speaker 2>be a full blown search. The police are going to

0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.440
<v Speaker 2>get involved, but they sort of say, you know, wait

0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:28.240
<v Speaker 2>till morning. Okay, it's past midnight. Now we're going to

0:23:28.280 --> 0:23:30.720
<v Speaker 2>do a helicopter search of the area in the morning.

0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:33.440
<v Speaker 2>Go home and rest and come back at the break

0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:36.320
<v Speaker 2>of dawn and then start searching. And so that's exactly

0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:38.920
<v Speaker 2>what happens. The helicopter goes out in the morning, starts

0:23:38.960 --> 0:23:42.560
<v Speaker 2>searching the area. Leo, his father, the friends, they all

0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:45.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of split up. But now because they know where

0:23:45.280 --> 0:23:47.800
<v Speaker 2>the car was, it's very easy to trace that back.

0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.760
<v Speaker 2>They're going to trace it back to Tom's restaurant. The

0:23:50.840 --> 0:23:53.080
<v Speaker 2>last place she was seeing seven miles away, so that's

0:23:53.119 --> 0:23:55.119
<v Speaker 2>what they do. They sort of split up along I

0:23:55.320 --> 0:23:58.040
<v Speaker 2>four early in the morning, and they're working both sides,

0:23:58.080 --> 0:24:01.000
<v Speaker 2>looking in ditches, looking in the meat, in no sign

0:24:01.080 --> 0:24:04.320
<v Speaker 2>of anything. They finally get back to the road where

0:24:04.480 --> 0:24:07.080
<v Speaker 2>Tom's is and they're there and they split up again,

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:10.320
<v Speaker 2>and this is the point where Leo is searching with

0:24:10.359 --> 0:24:14.000
<v Speaker 2>his Michelle's best friend. Her name is Michelle McCluskey, and

0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:16.399
<v Speaker 2>they see a cop car speedby with the lights on,

0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:20.080
<v Speaker 2>siren blaring, so Leo thinks, okay, that's it, and then

0:24:20.119 --> 0:24:22.680
<v Speaker 2>they see a second one and then Leo's like, all right,

0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:25.040
<v Speaker 2>we got to go follow that car, and so they

0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:28.240
<v Speaker 2>jump in the car Leo's with Michelle's best friend, and

0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:31.040
<v Speaker 2>they're speeding toward it, and they see a truck kind

0:24:31.040 --> 0:24:34.640
<v Speaker 2>of jackknifed on the road and Leo's like, oh, they're

0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.160
<v Speaker 2>speeding to an accident. They get a little bit closer

0:24:37.560 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 2>and he sees his father's car on the side of

0:24:39.480 --> 0:24:42.280
<v Speaker 2>the road in the same spot. Leo jumps out of

0:24:42.280 --> 0:24:45.320
<v Speaker 2>the truck, still moving, and he sees his father coming

0:24:45.320 --> 0:24:47.479
<v Speaker 2>out of the woods with his hands over his face,

0:24:47.880 --> 0:24:51.439
<v Speaker 2>and he knows at this point something happened and he

0:24:51.560 --> 0:24:54.719
<v Speaker 2>rushes over to his father. His father just grabs him

0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.760
<v Speaker 2>and says she's gone, she's gone, and Leo's kind of

0:24:57.800 --> 0:25:00.440
<v Speaker 2>freaks out. He's like, they tell her she's a water

0:25:00.640 --> 0:25:02.600
<v Speaker 2>and Leo's like, get her out, get her out? How

0:25:02.600 --> 0:25:05.359
<v Speaker 2>do you know she? Like, he's just freaking out. The detectives,

0:25:05.400 --> 0:25:07.919
<v Speaker 2>the police kind of hold him back. They won't let

0:25:08.000 --> 0:25:10.840
<v Speaker 2>him go over there, and so he's kind of freaking out.

0:25:10.880 --> 0:25:13.639
<v Speaker 2>There's a very famous picture of Leo, like he tears

0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:16.000
<v Speaker 2>his shirt off and he's just pacing up and down

0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:17.840
<v Speaker 2>the street, and that's kind of like the image we

0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:20.159
<v Speaker 2>use on the Bone Valley themes. Like Leo is just

0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:23.040
<v Speaker 2>totally distraught. He knows his wife is back there, they

0:25:23.040 --> 0:25:26.400
<v Speaker 2>won't let him go see, and he's just unprepared for this.

0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:29.800
<v Speaker 1>How did his father find her? How did that even happen?

0:25:29.880 --> 0:25:32.200
<v Speaker 1>If they're kind of in a wooded area, that becomes

0:25:32.280 --> 0:25:33.280
<v Speaker 1>a big part of the case.

0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:37.040
<v Speaker 2>You know, they find Michelle, and then after Michelle has found,

0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:39.879
<v Speaker 2>Leo's father found her, and so what does he start saying?

0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:41.800
<v Speaker 2>He said, God let me to the body. It was God,

0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:44.920
<v Speaker 2>help me find her. They kind of spun it into

0:25:45.000 --> 0:25:47.320
<v Speaker 2>like Leo's father woke up in the middle of the night,

0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:49.119
<v Speaker 2>had a premonition at the body, and went right to

0:25:49.119 --> 0:25:53.040
<v Speaker 2>the site, and that's how it got spun locally. But

0:25:53.119 --> 0:25:56.359
<v Speaker 2>you know what happened was it was a logical, methodical

0:25:56.400 --> 0:26:01.399
<v Speaker 2>search backwards from the car towards Sparky gas station. And

0:26:01.480 --> 0:26:03.560
<v Speaker 2>this was on the way. And if you look at

0:26:03.600 --> 0:26:05.880
<v Speaker 2>the aerial shots that the helicopter did, like, if you're

0:26:05.880 --> 0:26:08.200
<v Speaker 2>going that way, that's a place you're going to go into.

0:26:08.240 --> 0:26:10.760
<v Speaker 2>It has a driveway into it, there's lots of beer

0:26:10.800 --> 0:26:13.600
<v Speaker 2>bottles and garbage. It's a place where kids hung out.

0:26:13.800 --> 0:26:17.639
<v Speaker 2>And so Leo's father is working backwards from ifour This

0:26:17.680 --> 0:26:20.760
<v Speaker 2>is the first cut that leads back to this dark area,

0:26:21.040 --> 0:26:23.560
<v Speaker 2>and he starts looking around back there and he sees

0:26:24.160 --> 0:26:27.760
<v Speaker 2>a jacket right near the water, there's an old phosphate pit.

0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:30.639
<v Speaker 2>He sees a jacket laying there kind of looks like

0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:33.639
<v Speaker 2>could be Michelle's jacket, and so he walks to the

0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:37.359
<v Speaker 2>jacket and that's when he sees Michelle floating face down

0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:39.760
<v Speaker 2>in the water, and she's got like a piece of

0:26:39.840 --> 0:26:43.600
<v Speaker 2>plywood over most of her body and she's just laying there,

0:26:44.040 --> 0:26:46.240
<v Speaker 2>and that's when he freaks out. He runs out into

0:26:46.280 --> 0:26:48.520
<v Speaker 2>the truck he fled, you know, waves down a truck

0:26:48.520 --> 0:26:50.960
<v Speaker 2>and says, y's your radio. Call the police, and he says,

0:26:50.960 --> 0:26:52.680
<v Speaker 2>my daughter in law is back there.

0:26:53.160 --> 0:26:57.560
<v Speaker 1>So was the theory until we see this plywood and

0:26:57.760 --> 0:26:59.760
<v Speaker 1>find out a little bit more about this. Was the

0:26:59.760 --> 0:27:02.879
<v Speaker 1>theory that she wrecked her car, then went back to

0:27:02.920 --> 0:27:05.360
<v Speaker 1>Sparkeys to get help, and then something happened to her

0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:07.520
<v Speaker 1>in between the car, the seven miles of the car,

0:27:07.760 --> 0:27:09.320
<v Speaker 1>and then Sparky's is that what it would be?

0:27:10.200 --> 0:27:12.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, they never really get to that theory because

0:27:12.640 --> 0:27:15.560
<v Speaker 2>they can't explain why the car is like seven miles away.

0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:18.000
<v Speaker 2>They don't have any explanation for that broken down on

0:27:18.040 --> 0:27:20.880
<v Speaker 2>the side of the road. They really start looking about

0:27:20.920 --> 0:27:24.800
<v Speaker 2>canvassing the neighborhood. And as they start canvassing the neighborhood

0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:26.840
<v Speaker 2>of the trailer where Leo and Michelle lived, some of

0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:28.560
<v Speaker 2>the neighbors are saying that, oh, they used to fight

0:27:28.600 --> 0:27:30.359
<v Speaker 2>over there all the time, and so now they're like,

0:27:30.680 --> 0:27:33.920
<v Speaker 2>h well, it's the husband. And then there's a witness

0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.119
<v Speaker 2>across the street from the Schofields trailer. Her name is

0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:40.720
<v Speaker 2>Alice Scott. And Alice Scott is kind of the busybody neighbor.

0:27:40.920 --> 0:27:44.399
<v Speaker 2>In fact, the prosecution calls her that, and she basically

0:27:44.560 --> 0:27:48.760
<v Speaker 2>says that she saw Leo carrying something out heavy into

0:27:48.800 --> 0:27:52.119
<v Speaker 2>the back of the Mazda the night she disappeared, and

0:27:52.240 --> 0:27:56.679
<v Speaker 2>so this becomes the biggest break for the police. They're thinking,

0:27:57.200 --> 0:27:59.720
<v Speaker 2>if that's true, the trailer must be the crime scene.

0:28:00.119 --> 0:28:02.960
<v Speaker 2>So because Alice says she saw Leo come out of

0:28:02.960 --> 0:28:06.040
<v Speaker 2>there after a fight, carrying something heavy and putting in

0:28:06.080 --> 0:28:07.800
<v Speaker 2>the back of the car and driving away, they start

0:28:07.880 --> 0:28:10.720
<v Speaker 2>using that as the theory of how the crime took place.

0:28:11.200 --> 0:28:14.400
<v Speaker 2>All based on Alice Scott's testimony and statements.

0:28:14.760 --> 0:28:17.399
<v Speaker 1>Tell me a little bit more about what investigators see

0:28:17.440 --> 0:28:19.600
<v Speaker 1>when they go back there and they see her floating

0:28:19.760 --> 0:28:22.240
<v Speaker 1>with you said a piece of plywood above her, and

0:28:22.440 --> 0:28:23.879
<v Speaker 1>you said, is this a pond or what kind of

0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:24.800
<v Speaker 1>body of water is this?

0:28:25.680 --> 0:28:28.000
<v Speaker 2>It's an abandoned phosphate pit. So there used to be

0:28:28.000 --> 0:28:30.399
<v Speaker 2>a phosphate mine that was there, and they filled it

0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:33.360
<v Speaker 2>with water and it just left it. It's basically reclaimed

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:36.200
<v Speaker 2>land at this point, but it's filled with water. It

0:28:36.600 --> 0:28:39.200
<v Speaker 2>more or less looks like a lake. But it runs

0:28:39.360 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 2>parallel to this road, so it seems more like a canal,

0:28:42.640 --> 0:28:44.840
<v Speaker 2>but the way they call it back then was called

0:28:44.840 --> 0:28:48.920
<v Speaker 2>a drainage pit. And so they find Michelle fully clothed

0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:52.719
<v Speaker 2>everything but her shoes, and she's laying in this water.

0:28:53.160 --> 0:28:55.440
<v Speaker 2>And when they pull the ply would offer and bring

0:28:55.480 --> 0:28:57.840
<v Speaker 2>her out of the water, they quickly find out that

0:28:57.920 --> 0:29:02.080
<v Speaker 2>she's been stabbed numerous times. Later on the corner would

0:29:02.080 --> 0:29:05.160
<v Speaker 2>say twenty six times. She'd been stabbed in the front

0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:07.880
<v Speaker 2>and back and parts of her neck. So it was

0:29:07.920 --> 0:29:11.280
<v Speaker 2>a brutal, brutal killing. And so they examined the crime

0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:15.240
<v Speaker 2>scene basically that area, and they find like a large

0:29:15.880 --> 0:29:19.560
<v Speaker 2>clump of blood and it matches Michelle's blood. So it's

0:29:19.640 --> 0:29:22.720
<v Speaker 2>right in the sand, in the dirt, right in that

0:29:22.920 --> 0:29:25.800
<v Speaker 2>area of cut right back in that woods back there

0:29:26.000 --> 0:29:29.120
<v Speaker 2>near the near the water, and so you know, they

0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:31.120
<v Speaker 2>find that there, and they find the body, but they

0:29:31.160 --> 0:29:33.960
<v Speaker 2>don't really put it together, like they look at it

0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:37.360
<v Speaker 2>sort of, well, if Leo was seen carrying something heavy,

0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:39.560
<v Speaker 2>she must have been killed back there, and this was

0:29:39.600 --> 0:29:41.560
<v Speaker 2>probably the dumping site, and that's kind of what they

0:29:41.560 --> 0:29:44.560
<v Speaker 2>settled on. They settle on the trailer as being the

0:29:44.560 --> 0:29:47.560
<v Speaker 2>crime scene. The big problem with this is they cannot

0:29:47.640 --> 0:29:51.600
<v Speaker 2>find one drop or speck of blood in the trailer

0:29:52.040 --> 0:29:56.720
<v Speaker 2>for someone who have stabbed someone twenty six times inside

0:29:56.720 --> 0:29:59.400
<v Speaker 2>that trailer then carry her out. Is pretty clear that

0:29:59.440 --> 0:30:01.320
<v Speaker 2>there's going to be some form of blood, like it's

0:30:01.600 --> 0:30:04.760
<v Speaker 2>just impossible to clean up that kind of mess. But

0:30:04.800 --> 0:30:07.000
<v Speaker 2>they don't find any blood, and so that's kind of

0:30:07.000 --> 0:30:10.320
<v Speaker 2>a problem for the state. And the other problem is

0:30:10.320 --> 0:30:13.800
<v Speaker 2>that Alice Scott is kind of a suspect witness's you know,

0:30:13.880 --> 0:30:18.600
<v Speaker 2>she's been institutionalized in mental institutes for delusions. Her husband

0:30:18.680 --> 0:30:20.840
<v Speaker 2>is saying begging the police not to talk to her

0:30:20.880 --> 0:30:23.560
<v Speaker 2>because she tends to get overly involved in these kind

0:30:23.600 --> 0:30:25.320
<v Speaker 2>of things and they doesn't want her to do it.

0:30:25.400 --> 0:30:28.360
<v Speaker 2>He doesn't want her doing this, but she doesn't. She

0:30:28.440 --> 0:30:32.600
<v Speaker 2>starts talking to police and her descriptions become more clear

0:30:32.680 --> 0:30:35.720
<v Speaker 2>and more violent, and she's the only witness who had

0:30:35.760 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>heard anything that night. It takes about sixteen months for

0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:42.880
<v Speaker 2>the state to arrest Leo Schofield because they're just they're

0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:45.040
<v Speaker 2>not really confident they have a strong case here. There's

0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:48.320
<v Speaker 2>no physical evidence connecting Leo. There's a lot of alibi

0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:51.160
<v Speaker 2>witness because he's with friends most of the time, so

0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:53.520
<v Speaker 2>they're trying to narrow down that period from when it

0:30:53.520 --> 0:30:56.600
<v Speaker 2>would have happened, and Alice Scott says, I looked at

0:30:56.600 --> 0:30:58.640
<v Speaker 2>a clock. I saw this. It was between two thirty

0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:02.520
<v Speaker 2>and three am. Well, Leo's accounted for, he's with police

0:31:02.640 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 2>and he's with Michelle's father at that hour, So like

0:31:06.480 --> 0:31:09.040
<v Speaker 2>kind of worried about this. But they have a really

0:31:09.080 --> 0:31:12.800
<v Speaker 2>good prosecutor named John Aguero, who's an expert at putting

0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:16.959
<v Speaker 2>together circumstantial cases, and when he starts to talk to

0:31:17.480 --> 0:31:21.400
<v Speaker 2>Alice Scott himself, he finds that the timeline is starting

0:31:21.440 --> 0:31:23.920
<v Speaker 2>to come together under his questioning.

0:31:27.320 --> 0:31:30.920
<v Speaker 1>In my other show Buried Bones with Paul Paul Hols,

0:31:31.560 --> 0:31:35.080
<v Speaker 1>I learned something this was several years ago. When they

0:31:35.120 --> 0:31:37.120
<v Speaker 1>find a victim and it's a woman and she is

0:31:37.160 --> 0:31:40.160
<v Speaker 1>fully clothed, I assume, as I think a lot of

0:31:40.160 --> 0:31:43.200
<v Speaker 1>people do, that there was no sexual assault, until Paul says,

0:31:43.360 --> 0:31:47.600
<v Speaker 1>sometimes the offender redresses them. So did they find any

0:31:47.840 --> 0:31:51.160
<v Speaker 1>signs of sexual assault or anything like that on Michelle.

0:31:51.680 --> 0:31:54.520
<v Speaker 2>No, they said that she was not sexually assaulted. There

0:31:54.600 --> 0:31:57.080
<v Speaker 2>was no evidence of that. That's really interesting. I'd never

0:31:57.120 --> 0:31:57.800
<v Speaker 2>heard that before.

0:31:58.040 --> 0:31:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I hadn't either.

0:31:59.040 --> 0:32:02.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, particular case, there was nothing like that, which led

0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:05.360
<v Speaker 2>them more towards Leo, because like, why would Leo have

0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:07.400
<v Speaker 2>sexually assault you know, it's not that kind of This

0:32:07.520 --> 0:32:10.520
<v Speaker 2>was a rage crime. That's what they're arguing. Shoot, Leo

0:32:10.680 --> 0:32:13.080
<v Speaker 2>was so mad that Michelle was late that for some

0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:15.600
<v Speaker 2>reason he decided to stab her twenty six times. That's

0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:19.040
<v Speaker 2>that's pretty much how the case came together. Miraculously, Alice

0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:22.200
<v Speaker 2>Scott led them to two more neighbors who after a

0:32:22.240 --> 0:32:24.760
<v Speaker 2>year and a half, suddenly remembered that they saw Leo's

0:32:24.840 --> 0:32:29.600
<v Speaker 2>father's car or the Mazda at that pit area that night,

0:32:29.760 --> 0:32:32.200
<v Speaker 2>even though they talked to police twice and that never

0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:34.280
<v Speaker 2>came up. There was a lot of things that never

0:32:34.360 --> 0:32:37.040
<v Speaker 2>came up in the initial statements that fifteen months later,

0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:39.400
<v Speaker 2>they came up in John Aguero's office when he was

0:32:39.480 --> 0:32:41.280
<v Speaker 2>questioning him. That was a key to the case.

0:32:41.840 --> 0:32:44.520
<v Speaker 1>You said, twenty seven stab wounds. Were there signs of

0:32:44.560 --> 0:32:47.840
<v Speaker 1>defensive wounds or were they located in one particular place.

0:32:48.600 --> 0:32:50.440
<v Speaker 2>No, there was a couple of bruises on her, but

0:32:50.720 --> 0:32:54.640
<v Speaker 2>they didn't really notice any signs of defensive wounds or

0:32:54.640 --> 0:32:57.240
<v Speaker 2>anything like that. They did notice, and they preserved it

0:32:57.280 --> 0:33:00.280
<v Speaker 2>for a while, some fingernail scrapings that they believe, but

0:33:00.360 --> 0:33:02.840
<v Speaker 2>you know, they didn't just DNA backed. They preserved it,

0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:05.760
<v Speaker 2>but later the prosecutor destroyed it back in the nineties,

0:33:06.240 --> 0:33:07.800
<v Speaker 2>got rid of all of it. But so that's all

0:33:07.800 --> 0:33:09.600
<v Speaker 2>they really have is they have an eyewitness and a

0:33:09.680 --> 0:33:14.520
<v Speaker 2>very circumstantial case. There's nothing physical connecting Leo to the crime.

0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:17.040
<v Speaker 2>The one thing that kind of jumps out of the

0:33:17.080 --> 0:33:20.680
<v Speaker 2>state but doesn't seem to jump out to Leo's defense attorney,

0:33:21.240 --> 0:33:24.280
<v Speaker 2>is that they find fingerprints in the car that have

0:33:24.360 --> 0:33:27.320
<v Speaker 2>been unidentified. They don't belong to Leo, they don't belong

0:33:27.360 --> 0:33:30.360
<v Speaker 2>to Michelle, they don't belong to Leo's father. They just

0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:34.760
<v Speaker 2>become unidentified and they sit in the file for many,

0:33:34.840 --> 0:33:40.200
<v Speaker 2>many years as unidentified fingerprints. But because Leo's defense attorney

0:33:40.480 --> 0:33:45.040
<v Speaker 2>did no pre trial investigation and he did no depositions

0:33:45.040 --> 0:33:48.680
<v Speaker 2>of witnesses, he was known as a trial by ambush attorney.

0:33:48.720 --> 0:33:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Like he just didn't like to be prepared. He liked

0:33:50.560 --> 0:33:52.800
<v Speaker 2>to be spontaneous and I'll just take care of those

0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:55.560
<v Speaker 2>witnesses on the cross examination, and that's how I win

0:33:55.680 --> 0:33:58.480
<v Speaker 2>my cases. And he was very charming, southern, kind of

0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:01.760
<v Speaker 2>looked like Colonel Sanders, but he was really ill prepared

0:34:01.800 --> 0:34:03.520
<v Speaker 2>for this kind of case when it gets a little

0:34:03.560 --> 0:34:04.320
<v Speaker 2>more scientific.

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:07.720
<v Speaker 1>Hmm, Well, I'm going to channel poll Holes one more time.

0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:12.600
<v Speaker 1>Because the fingerprints inside the car, he would say, if

0:34:12.600 --> 0:34:15.600
<v Speaker 1>he were here, he would say, well, where are those fingerprints?

0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:17.800
<v Speaker 1>You know, if it's a random like a gas station

0:34:17.840 --> 0:34:20.399
<v Speaker 1>attendant who's doing something, and it makes sense maybe it's

0:34:20.400 --> 0:34:22.279
<v Speaker 1>on the inside of a window or something like that,

0:34:22.280 --> 0:34:24.640
<v Speaker 1>that's one thing. But if it's a place where a

0:34:24.640 --> 0:34:27.040
<v Speaker 1>stranger really probably shouldn't be, like the trunk of the

0:34:27.080 --> 0:34:30.279
<v Speaker 1>car or you know, some other area, that might make

0:34:30.320 --> 0:34:32.360
<v Speaker 1>a difference. Do we have any idea where those random

0:34:32.440 --> 0:34:33.000
<v Speaker 1>prints were?

0:34:33.680 --> 0:34:36.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Absolutely. And what's curious about it is that they

0:34:36.440 --> 0:34:39.160
<v Speaker 2>don't find any of Michelle or Leo's prints in the

0:34:39.200 --> 0:34:39.960
<v Speaker 2>car at all.

0:34:40.239 --> 0:34:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so somebody wiped it down, right, Yeah.

0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:44.879
<v Speaker 2>That's what they're thinking, right, somebody must have wiped it down.

0:34:44.920 --> 0:34:48.160
<v Speaker 2>But they find two fingerprints, ones on the inside driver's

0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:51.040
<v Speaker 2>door and inside the car, and the other one is

0:34:51.080 --> 0:34:54.560
<v Speaker 2>in the back, the back of the hatchback, and there's

0:34:54.800 --> 0:34:58.920
<v Speaker 2>a television rental receipt and the television rental receipt was

0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:03.120
<v Speaker 2>touched and fingerprints, but they didn't match anyone Leo or anyone.

0:35:03.200 --> 0:35:05.919
<v Speaker 2>So that's where they find these prints that are unidentified.

0:35:06.080 --> 0:35:09.320
<v Speaker 2>But also the stereo was tampered with, so the speakers

0:35:09.320 --> 0:35:11.960
<v Speaker 2>in the back were missing, as well as the equalizer

0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:15.759
<v Speaker 2>underneath the car stereo. The equalizer was taken out for

0:35:15.840 --> 0:35:18.520
<v Speaker 2>whatever reason, they tried getting the stereo up, couldn't get

0:35:18.560 --> 0:35:21.000
<v Speaker 2>it out, so they took the equalizer and the speakers

0:35:21.000 --> 0:35:24.120
<v Speaker 2>in the back. So that does kind of explain why

0:35:24.160 --> 0:35:26.080
<v Speaker 2>there might be, you know, fingerprints in the back of

0:35:26.120 --> 0:35:28.280
<v Speaker 2>the hatchback, unidentified fingerprints.

0:35:28.480 --> 0:35:32.200
<v Speaker 1>So if we are not thinking Leo is a suspect

0:35:32.200 --> 0:35:37.120
<v Speaker 1>and we're thinking something else, would this be She breaks down,

0:35:37.760 --> 0:35:39.840
<v Speaker 1>someone comes up to her, wants to steal her stuff,

0:35:39.840 --> 0:35:42.240
<v Speaker 1>she puts up a fight, he stabs her and tosses

0:35:42.280 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 1>her in this phosphate pit. And that's kind of the

0:35:45.200 --> 0:35:47.480
<v Speaker 1>way this goes because now you have I didn't realize

0:35:47.520 --> 0:35:49.840
<v Speaker 1>there was stuff missing, So now there is a motive

0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:51.279
<v Speaker 1>for a stranger right.

0:35:51.200 --> 0:35:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Right, And you know, nobody can explain why the car

0:35:53.320 --> 0:35:55.960
<v Speaker 2>is seven miles away like broken down, like it doesn't

0:35:56.000 --> 0:35:57.880
<v Speaker 2>really fit any theories of anything.

0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:00.520
<v Speaker 1>You know, is it in the right direction though, Gilbert, like,

0:36:00.560 --> 0:36:02.359
<v Speaker 1>is it going where it's supposed to be going before

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:04.080
<v Speaker 1>it breaks down toward the friend's house.

0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:07.719
<v Speaker 2>No, it's going to totally opposite direction, and it's far

0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:10.560
<v Speaker 2>far away, like in an opposite direction, and like the

0:36:10.640 --> 0:36:13.040
<v Speaker 2>state isn't going to end up saying that Leo and

0:36:13.080 --> 0:36:15.520
<v Speaker 2>his father and his mother were in on this conspiracy.

0:36:15.640 --> 0:36:17.719
<v Speaker 2>One of them killed Michelle and they decided to all

0:36:17.760 --> 0:36:20.040
<v Speaker 2>act together and get rid of the body and get

0:36:20.080 --> 0:36:22.680
<v Speaker 2>rid of the car. And you know, that was what

0:36:22.719 --> 0:36:25.880
<v Speaker 2>the theory was, and so that really was about attacking

0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:26.560
<v Speaker 2>the alibi.

0:36:27.280 --> 0:36:29.239
<v Speaker 1>Do we have any information about the blood that what

0:36:29.280 --> 0:36:31.040
<v Speaker 1>they thought was blood in the back seat? Did it

0:36:31.080 --> 0:36:33.520
<v Speaker 1>turn out to be blood and Michelle's blood? There was

0:36:33.640 --> 0:36:36.480
<v Speaker 1>Michelle's blood was found on the downy fabric soft in

0:36:36.520 --> 0:36:38.880
<v Speaker 1>her bottle, a little smear of it. It's just a

0:36:38.880 --> 0:36:40.640
<v Speaker 1>little bit, but enough to get a sample and to

0:36:40.719 --> 0:36:43.840
<v Speaker 1>show that it was Michelle's blood. There was also a

0:36:43.880 --> 0:36:46.960
<v Speaker 1>little bit of blood on the back rug in the hatchback,

0:36:47.120 --> 0:36:49.920
<v Speaker 1>but only a little bit, but they couldn't identify.

0:36:49.440 --> 0:36:51.840
<v Speaker 2>It as Michelle's There wasn't enough of it there. But

0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:54.400
<v Speaker 2>they said it was definitely human blood and that's the

0:36:54.440 --> 0:36:57.359
<v Speaker 2>only blood that was found in the car in eighty seven.

0:36:57.400 --> 0:36:59.359
<v Speaker 2>Were they doing blood typing? Is that what it would

0:36:59.400 --> 0:37:02.239
<v Speaker 2>have been? It was blood typing, aba oh and that

0:37:02.360 --> 0:37:04.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of thing, and they could tell it wasn't Leo's.

0:37:04.640 --> 0:37:06.920
<v Speaker 2>They knew that it wasn't Leo's. It was definitely Michelle's

0:37:06.920 --> 0:37:08.360
<v Speaker 2>based on the blood typing.

0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:12.000
<v Speaker 1>So Leo's suspicious. They look at the alibi and what

0:37:12.040 --> 0:37:14.000
<v Speaker 1>are they saying about his alibi? And I think all

0:37:14.000 --> 0:37:15.880
<v Speaker 1>these people are lying on his behalf or that he

0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:18.120
<v Speaker 1>slipped out and slipped back in and it was no

0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:18.600
<v Speaker 1>big deal.

0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:21.080
<v Speaker 2>There's one period where Leo goes out with his father

0:37:21.480 --> 0:37:24.040
<v Speaker 2>for about an hour and he's driving around town. It's

0:37:24.080 --> 0:37:26.640
<v Speaker 2>like right after the right after the Leo calls the

0:37:26.640 --> 0:37:29.239
<v Speaker 2>sheriff reporting Michelle missing. They go back out and do

0:37:29.280 --> 0:37:31.480
<v Speaker 2>the same kind of thing, and then they go back

0:37:31.520 --> 0:37:35.760
<v Speaker 2>to Leo's parents trailer because Leo's father is not feeling well.

0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:37.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he's got a cast on his leg. He's

0:37:37.920 --> 0:37:40.520
<v Speaker 2>just not really up for this, and so he goes

0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:42.680
<v Speaker 2>to bed and the mom goes out with Leo, and

0:37:42.920 --> 0:37:45.440
<v Speaker 2>that's when they go over to Michelle's father's house. They

0:37:45.480 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 2>start tracing them as they're out to like three something

0:37:47.680 --> 0:37:50.279
<v Speaker 2>in the morning doing this. Finally they go back home,

0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:52.440
<v Speaker 2>drops off his mom, and Leo's like, I'm going to

0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:54.120
<v Speaker 2>my friend Buddy's house. I got to get his car.

0:37:54.160 --> 0:37:56.719
<v Speaker 2>We're going to go out searching him freaked out. So

0:37:57.160 --> 0:38:00.200
<v Speaker 2>the state's theory is that somehow, and they can't and

0:38:00.400 --> 0:38:03.399
<v Speaker 2>say how this happens, somehow Leo must have run into

0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.360
<v Speaker 2>Michelle while they're out searching, and then he says goodbye

0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:08.840
<v Speaker 2>to his father. He gets in the Mazda with Michelle

0:38:08.880 --> 0:38:11.319
<v Speaker 2>and they go back to the trailer, getting a huge fight.

0:38:11.800 --> 0:38:14.360
<v Speaker 2>Leo stabs are there, carries her out. That's the theory

0:38:14.400 --> 0:38:17.160
<v Speaker 2>they go on. You know, the timeline doesn't really work

0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:20.080
<v Speaker 2>because there's some other witnesses that show up in the

0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:23.240
<v Speaker 2>police reports verifying that Leo was calling there and exactly

0:38:23.280 --> 0:38:25.080
<v Speaker 2>the time he said he was, and he couldn't have

0:38:25.120 --> 0:38:27.480
<v Speaker 2>been doing it from the trailer. So there's a two

0:38:27.520 --> 0:38:31.640
<v Speaker 2>am call that Leo made to Michelle's grandmother that was

0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:34.120
<v Speaker 2>confirmed by both you know, the state acknowledged it. It's

0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:36.880
<v Speaker 2>in the police reports, but Leo's lawyer doesn't see it.

0:38:37.280 --> 0:38:38.920
<v Speaker 2>And so the state doesn't bring it up.

0:38:39.400 --> 0:38:42.279
<v Speaker 1>So now we I think understand the way this trial

0:38:42.400 --> 0:38:44.480
<v Speaker 1>is going to go. He's getting real road in, right.

0:38:44.520 --> 0:38:47.480
<v Speaker 1>It seems pretty clear there are all these witnesses that

0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:51.880
<v Speaker 1>can give him an alibi. His dad luckily finds Michelle

0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:54.759
<v Speaker 1>to be able to recover her body and everything. But

0:38:55.480 --> 0:38:58.399
<v Speaker 1>now everything is turning on this guy's character. And he's

0:38:58.440 --> 0:39:01.400
<v Speaker 1>a young husband who's been her fighting, and you know,

0:39:01.480 --> 0:39:04.120
<v Speaker 1>all of this stuff. And of course, you know, you

0:39:04.160 --> 0:39:07.280
<v Speaker 1>can't ignore that he's from a very lower income area.

0:39:08.200 --> 0:39:10.880
<v Speaker 1>And you know, we're not talking about middle class, upper

0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:14.719
<v Speaker 1>class citizens in this in Lakeland. We're talking about very

0:39:14.800 --> 0:39:18.279
<v Speaker 1>low socioeconomic area where they're obviously not going to be

0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:20.680
<v Speaker 1>a priority. And it seems very clear that this kid

0:39:20.800 --> 0:39:23.319
<v Speaker 1>is violent and acts violence and he's the one who

0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:24.400
<v Speaker 1>did it. Open and shut.

0:39:24.560 --> 0:39:26.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much. Horror thing is when you look into

0:39:26.800 --> 0:39:30.760
<v Speaker 2>this case, Lakeland, this area had an unbelievable public defender's office.

0:39:30.800 --> 0:39:33.319
<v Speaker 2>They were really good, really great trial and they had

0:39:33.800 --> 0:39:37.560
<v Speaker 2>extraordinary records of getting acquittals in death penalty cases like acquittals.

0:39:37.760 --> 0:39:40.279
<v Speaker 2>I mean, they were really good. And Leo starts out

0:39:40.280 --> 0:39:42.799
<v Speaker 2>with the public Defender's office but when they lock them

0:39:42.880 --> 0:39:44.960
<v Speaker 2>up and throw them in jail, he's talking to these

0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:47.440
<v Speaker 2>other inmates, and that's a public pretender. Your life's on

0:39:47.480 --> 0:39:49.120
<v Speaker 2>the line. You can't do that, you know. You got

0:39:49.160 --> 0:39:51.239
<v Speaker 2>to get somebody good, you know. And it's a death

0:39:51.280 --> 0:39:54.360
<v Speaker 2>penalty case. And because Leo had gotten in an accident

0:39:54.600 --> 0:39:58.120
<v Speaker 2>the summer before he broke his neck, he's a passenger

0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:01.080
<v Speaker 2>in a car, he had a fifty dollar settlement coming

0:40:01.080 --> 0:40:05.839
<v Speaker 2>his way. And so this hotshot lawyer named Jack Edmund said,

0:40:05.880 --> 0:40:09.279
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly my fee, and sign this paper and you know,

0:40:09.440 --> 0:40:11.799
<v Speaker 2>and that's what happens. So that's how Leo ends up,

0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:14.680
<v Speaker 2>not with the Public Defender's Office, which he says was

0:40:14.680 --> 0:40:16.920
<v Speaker 2>the biggest mistake of his life. He ended up with

0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:20.160
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer who was completely unprepared and just got steamrolled

0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:20.960
<v Speaker 2>by the prosecutor.

0:40:21.560 --> 0:40:23.880
<v Speaker 1>Is this a capital case in Florida? Must be in

0:40:23.920 --> 0:40:24.520
<v Speaker 1>eighty seven.

0:40:25.120 --> 0:40:27.680
<v Speaker 2>Yes, this county went for the death penalty as much

0:40:27.840 --> 0:40:28.560
<v Speaker 2>as you could.

0:40:28.840 --> 0:40:31.359
<v Speaker 1>So the trial goes on, it sounds like already you're

0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:35.920
<v Speaker 1>teasing that that Jack Edmunds, his defense attorney, is dropping

0:40:35.960 --> 0:40:38.600
<v Speaker 1>the ball, and ultimately I'm assuming we end up. Is

0:40:38.640 --> 0:40:40.240
<v Speaker 1>this a bench trial or is this a jury.

0:40:40.360 --> 0:40:40.920
<v Speaker 2>It's a jury.

0:40:41.000 --> 0:40:42.080
<v Speaker 1>No one tell me about the verdict.

0:40:42.200 --> 0:40:44.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'll just tell you the biggest. Well, he made

0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:46.600
<v Speaker 2>a lot of mistakes, but the first mistake he did

0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:49.160
<v Speaker 2>was he allowed the state to open its case with

0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:52.759
<v Speaker 2>twenty one bad character witnesses in a row. And most

0:40:52.800 --> 0:40:54.280
<v Speaker 2>of them just got up there and said, he's volatile,

0:40:54.360 --> 0:40:56.600
<v Speaker 2>he fights all the time, he does this, he punches walls,

0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:58.840
<v Speaker 2>he's like screaming all the time. Just shit, that was

0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.839
<v Speaker 2>really prejudicial. There were some witnesses that came in and

0:41:01.840 --> 0:41:04.839
<v Speaker 2>talked about like his relationship with Michelle, that probably would

0:41:04.840 --> 0:41:07.760
<v Speaker 2>have been, you know, admissible, But because Jack Edmond didn't

0:41:07.760 --> 0:41:10.880
<v Speaker 2>object to anything, he didn't preserve the record so that

0:41:10.920 --> 0:41:14.120
<v Speaker 2>stuff could no longer be challenged. And I think, you know,

0:41:14.160 --> 0:41:17.440
<v Speaker 2>I've let some judges, some prosecutors read the trial transcript

0:41:17.880 --> 0:41:19.880
<v Speaker 2>and they all said the same thing, like this trial

0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:22.319
<v Speaker 2>was over before this defense even got their case off

0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:25.120
<v Speaker 2>the webings. This was just the way you start, Like,

0:41:25.160 --> 0:41:27.279
<v Speaker 2>you couldn't imagine that the judge didn't even step in

0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:29.439
<v Speaker 2>and say this has got to stop. It's twenty one

0:41:29.480 --> 0:41:32.960
<v Speaker 2>straight bad character witnesses, you know, and it's all this

0:41:33.160 --> 0:41:35.560
<v Speaker 2>four or four evidence, this stuff that's like should not

0:41:35.640 --> 0:41:38.480
<v Speaker 2>be admissible in this to this extent. But because he

0:41:38.520 --> 0:41:40.680
<v Speaker 2>didn't know, and you know, he said, I'm not really

0:41:40.760 --> 0:41:43.120
<v Speaker 2>much of an evidence guy. I just know how to

0:41:43.320 --> 0:41:46.000
<v Speaker 2>win trials. It wasn't really the guy you want for

0:41:46.040 --> 0:41:48.520
<v Speaker 2>the law, and so he let it all in without objection.

0:41:48.760 --> 0:41:50.799
<v Speaker 2>So that kind of started off in a really bad

0:41:50.840 --> 0:41:53.680
<v Speaker 2>way because the testimony made Leo look like, you know,

0:41:53.719 --> 0:41:56.520
<v Speaker 2>a violent monster. The worst part of it, I think

0:41:56.960 --> 0:41:59.560
<v Speaker 2>was that there was a next door neighbor to Alice

0:41:59.560 --> 0:42:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Scott who happened to be her sister in law. She

0:42:02.239 --> 0:42:04.920
<v Speaker 2>was much more credible. Her name was Linda Sells, and

0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:07.719
<v Speaker 2>basically what she ended up saying was like, yes, we

0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:10.520
<v Speaker 2>did see Leo carrying something heavy out and we joked

0:42:10.520 --> 0:42:13.480
<v Speaker 2>around about it, me and Alice because you know, we said, oh,

0:42:13.520 --> 0:42:14.920
<v Speaker 2>I wonder what's going on in there, and they made

0:42:15.000 --> 0:42:17.279
<v Speaker 2>jokes about it. But she said that was a week

0:42:17.360 --> 0:42:19.879
<v Speaker 2>or two before Michelle disappeared. That was not that same night,

0:42:19.920 --> 0:42:22.319
<v Speaker 2>because I didn't work that night and I wasn't coming

0:42:22.360 --> 0:42:25.719
<v Speaker 2>home from work as Alice described and having that conversation

0:42:25.760 --> 0:42:28.000
<v Speaker 2>with her in the driveway, and you know, it was

0:42:28.040 --> 0:42:29.719
<v Speaker 2>later shown that she did not work that night. She

0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:33.720
<v Speaker 2>was inside. So whatever Alice claimed she saw, she probably

0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:35.160
<v Speaker 2>did see. But it was like a week or two

0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:38.600
<v Speaker 2>before Michelle went missing. And you know, I asked Leo

0:42:38.640 --> 0:42:41.040
<v Speaker 2>about that. I said, you know, carrying something heavy? Was

0:42:41.160 --> 0:42:43.200
<v Speaker 2>it was alluded to being a body. In fact, she

0:42:43.239 --> 0:42:45.960
<v Speaker 2>does say at one point I saw him carrying the body,

0:42:46.440 --> 0:42:49.440
<v Speaker 2>and Leo said, look, you know I did carry something out.

0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:51.560
<v Speaker 2>I was not that night because Michelle had the car,

0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:54.080
<v Speaker 2>but I did put an amplifier back there. And it's like,

0:42:54.400 --> 0:42:56.480
<v Speaker 2>she goes, I had a blanket over it. He said,

0:42:56.560 --> 0:42:58.640
<v Speaker 2>you know, you knew what it was not. It was

0:42:58.680 --> 0:43:00.759
<v Speaker 2>not a body. It was a box, you know, like

0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:04.040
<v Speaker 2>that was what it was. And so Leo's like, you're

0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:06.919
<v Speaker 2>lying by saying it's a body. But prosecutor was able

0:43:06.920 --> 0:43:09.120
<v Speaker 2>to get away with that, and frankly, like the defense

0:43:09.200 --> 0:43:10.920
<v Speaker 2>really dropped the ball in this one, because if you

0:43:10.960 --> 0:43:14.120
<v Speaker 2>look at Linda sells his testimony, it's very clear like

0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Alice is saying, I'm not good with dates. She says

0:43:16.040 --> 0:43:18.719
<v Speaker 2>that a bunch of times, and Linda is like, I

0:43:18.760 --> 0:43:20.600
<v Speaker 2>am good with dates. We saw that a week or

0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:23.560
<v Speaker 2>two before. That was not the same night and so

0:43:24.440 --> 0:43:27.120
<v Speaker 2>that was like the state's whole case. That was their

0:43:27.320 --> 0:43:30.600
<v Speaker 2>main witness against Leo. That made the crime scene the trailer,

0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:33.200
<v Speaker 2>and it was a different night and there's no blood

0:43:33.239 --> 0:43:36.360
<v Speaker 2>in the trailer. Still, Leo ended up getting convicted.

0:43:36.800 --> 0:43:40.280
<v Speaker 1>To simplify what they think the motive was, It's that

0:43:41.000 --> 0:43:45.800
<v Speaker 1>Leo is a young, angry, volatile, sometimes violent asshole who's

0:43:45.880 --> 0:43:48.640
<v Speaker 1>mad that his wife is not driving fast enough to

0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:51.640
<v Speaker 1>get to this party and maybe she's out doing something else.

0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:54.400
<v Speaker 1>Is that pretty much it? And he snaps and tracks

0:43:54.400 --> 0:43:55.440
<v Speaker 1>her down and does this.

0:43:55.840 --> 0:43:57.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much. I think I look back at it,

0:43:58.040 --> 0:43:59.880
<v Speaker 2>like you look at his behavior and then you co

0:44:00.120 --> 0:44:02.080
<v Speaker 2>parent to you know, we know of some of these

0:44:02.120 --> 0:44:04.839
<v Speaker 2>cases that we see today where the spouse claims that

0:44:04.960 --> 0:44:07.560
<v Speaker 2>wife went missing, we don't know where she is. Leo's

0:44:07.600 --> 0:44:10.480
<v Speaker 2>behavior is consistent for the three days, like he's the

0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:12.839
<v Speaker 2>one out there saying, we got to look, we gotta

0:44:12.880 --> 0:44:15.200
<v Speaker 2>do this. He's calling the police, consert he's putting himself

0:44:15.200 --> 0:44:18.280
<v Speaker 2>in front of police. Think about this. Within fifteen minutes,

0:44:18.280 --> 0:44:21.120
<v Speaker 2>when the state says that Leo killed Michelle and carried

0:44:21.160 --> 0:44:23.560
<v Speaker 2>her out to the car, he shows up at Michelle's

0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:26.480
<v Speaker 2>father's house saying, I need your help to find Michelle,

0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:29.480
<v Speaker 2>Like fifteen minutes after he just butchered the daughter. Twenty

0:44:29.520 --> 0:44:32.160
<v Speaker 2>minutes after that, he's over in front of police, standing

0:44:32.200 --> 0:44:34.000
<v Speaker 2>in front of this saying I need help finding my wife.

0:44:34.080 --> 0:44:36.880
<v Speaker 2>You know, this is how much really cleaning could he

0:44:36.960 --> 0:44:39.600
<v Speaker 2>have done in that time, you know, like the one witnesses,

0:44:39.640 --> 0:44:41.759
<v Speaker 2>I'm pretty sure he's wearing the same exact thing for

0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:44.560
<v Speaker 2>those two days. He never changed, And so they took

0:44:44.640 --> 0:44:46.800
<v Speaker 2>the clothes in and examined him and didn't find a

0:44:46.880 --> 0:44:49.640
<v Speaker 2>speca blood there either. And this isn't someone who's got

0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:52.279
<v Speaker 2>like ninety pairs of shoes and jeans and stuff like that.

0:44:52.440 --> 0:44:55.440
<v Speaker 2>So and so there's just nothing physically connecting to him

0:44:55.840 --> 0:44:59.319
<v Speaker 2>to the case. But he gets convicted. Fortunately for Leo,

0:44:59.440 --> 0:45:02.719
<v Speaker 2>he the jury spared his life. And you know, I

0:45:02.800 --> 0:45:05.520
<v Speaker 2>ended up tracking down the juror because most of them

0:45:05.560 --> 0:45:08.680
<v Speaker 2>are like, you know, elderly Florida retired people. They're all dead.

0:45:08.960 --> 0:45:11.439
<v Speaker 2>But this this one woman was twenty two at the time,

0:45:11.640 --> 0:45:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and we tracked her down and she says, yeah, I

0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:15.200
<v Speaker 2>didn't I didn't think he was guilty, but I just

0:45:15.280 --> 0:45:17.600
<v Speaker 2>went along with the others. Oh my gosh, I know,

0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:20.000
<v Speaker 2>and then, like she said, the quiet part out loud, right,

0:45:20.040 --> 0:45:22.240
<v Speaker 2>But then when it came time to the death sentence,

0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:24.279
<v Speaker 2>she kind of held firm because they were ready to

0:45:24.320 --> 0:45:27.120
<v Speaker 2>send him to his death. Yeah, and she said, you know,

0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:29.399
<v Speaker 2>I think they just changed it because of me, because

0:45:29.400 --> 0:45:31.680
<v Speaker 2>they didn't want to upset me anymore, and so they

0:45:31.800 --> 0:45:34.200
<v Speaker 2>decided to give him life. So like that that juror

0:45:34.440 --> 0:45:36.759
<v Speaker 2>might have saved Leo's life too. You know, it's just

0:45:36.800 --> 0:45:39.200
<v Speaker 2>a strange thing that we were able to track her

0:45:39.239 --> 0:45:40.040
<v Speaker 2>down and talk to her.

0:45:40.360 --> 0:45:44.000
<v Speaker 1>So tell me when things start to change, when people

0:45:44.040 --> 0:45:47.040
<v Speaker 1>other than you realize that this is not Leo, this

0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:48.880
<v Speaker 1>is actually somebody else.

0:45:49.360 --> 0:45:51.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, this is the crazy part of the story. So Leo,

0:45:51.840 --> 0:45:55.279
<v Speaker 2>you know, settles off to prison. He's there a few years.

0:45:55.320 --> 0:45:57.840
<v Speaker 2>Some some like older veterans tell him, you, look, you

0:45:57.920 --> 0:45:59.600
<v Speaker 2>got to get your education. You got to be useful.

0:45:59.640 --> 0:46:02.480
<v Speaker 2>You have to prove to the state that you are

0:46:02.680 --> 0:46:04.960
<v Speaker 2>worthy to be released. That's what you need to be

0:46:05.080 --> 0:46:08.040
<v Speaker 2>working on. They just pounded his head. Follow the rules,

0:46:08.239 --> 0:46:11.200
<v Speaker 2>don't get involved with bad people, work on yourself, work

0:46:11.239 --> 0:46:13.839
<v Speaker 2>on your education. And that's what Leo does. He gets

0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:16.440
<v Speaker 2>his high school degree. Then he goes on gets college degrees,

0:46:16.520 --> 0:46:19.800
<v Speaker 2>multiple college degrees. But in the early days, he gets

0:46:19.960 --> 0:46:22.520
<v Speaker 2>assigned as a teacher's aid in the prison. And this

0:46:22.560 --> 0:46:24.799
<v Speaker 2>is in the early nineties, so he's like twenty five

0:46:24.840 --> 0:46:28.920
<v Speaker 2>years old, and this kind of six foot tall, blonde

0:46:29.160 --> 0:46:32.440
<v Speaker 2>social worker is who he's assigned to help. He's the

0:46:32.480 --> 0:46:36.440
<v Speaker 2>teacher's aid for her, and remarkably, they fall in love

0:46:36.480 --> 0:46:38.960
<v Speaker 2>in the prison and they get married and they're still

0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:44.319
<v Speaker 2>married today thirty years later. But Chrissy gets into conversations

0:46:44.320 --> 0:46:46.480
<v Speaker 2>with Leo, and Leo's like, look, I just want to

0:46:46.520 --> 0:46:49.960
<v Speaker 2>tell you I'm here. I was convicted of murdering my wife.

0:46:50.120 --> 0:46:51.879
<v Speaker 2>I want you to know that that's the hill I'm

0:46:51.880 --> 0:46:53.520
<v Speaker 2>going to die on it. I don't want to play

0:46:53.560 --> 0:46:57.440
<v Speaker 2>games with you. I am wrongfully convicted. And he's like,

0:46:57.480 --> 0:46:59.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to try and talk you into anything.

0:46:59.239 --> 0:47:01.600
<v Speaker 2>If you want, go to your own research look into

0:47:01.600 --> 0:47:04.920
<v Speaker 2>my case. And she does. She's got a college degree,

0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:08.680
<v Speaker 2>and she starts looking into the case over many, many months,

0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:12.479
<v Speaker 2>and she becomes convinced that Leo's innocent. And the one

0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:15.960
<v Speaker 2>thing she settles on which obsesses her for years, is

0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:19.200
<v Speaker 2>that these unidentified fingerprints are in that car, and she

0:47:19.360 --> 0:47:21.759
<v Speaker 2>just wants to figure out who these prints belong to,

0:47:22.360 --> 0:47:24.880
<v Speaker 2>and so that becomes her mission. This goes on for

0:47:25.000 --> 0:47:28.279
<v Speaker 2>years and she's trying to get a hold of the Prince.

0:47:28.400 --> 0:47:31.440
<v Speaker 2>What can she do that Leo's no longer represented by

0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:34.280
<v Speaker 2>a lawyer. What can she do? She doesn't know. Flash

0:47:34.320 --> 0:47:37.200
<v Speaker 2>forward to two thousand and four. Michelle's been dead for

0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:41.040
<v Speaker 2>seventeen years now, Leo's still in prison. Chrissy finds a

0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:45.439
<v Speaker 2>friend who is a detective at a sheriff's department and

0:47:45.840 --> 0:47:49.920
<v Speaker 2>she's just begging her friend, Cinda, please just run these prints.

0:47:50.600 --> 0:47:53.719
<v Speaker 2>My husband is in prison. Chrissy is just relentless, like

0:47:53.760 --> 0:47:57.160
<v Speaker 2>a bulldog, and Sinda, just to get her to shut up,

0:47:57.280 --> 0:48:00.440
<v Speaker 2>basically says, fine, give me the Prince. So takes the

0:48:00.440 --> 0:48:03.280
<v Speaker 2>fingerprint cards. By this point they have the APHIS system

0:48:03.520 --> 0:48:08.200
<v Speaker 2>automatic fingerprint identification system. She runs the Prince through, thinking

0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:10.160
<v Speaker 2>this will be it. It's a tow truck driver, and

0:48:10.480 --> 0:48:12.920
<v Speaker 2>which the story is going to be over. Your husband's

0:48:12.960 --> 0:48:15.319
<v Speaker 2>a murderer, That's what she's thinking. They run the Prince through.

0:48:15.440 --> 0:48:17.439
<v Speaker 2>A couple of days later, they get a hit and

0:48:17.880 --> 0:48:22.240
<v Speaker 2>it's a young man who lived in Lakeland, very close

0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:25.120
<v Speaker 2>to where Leo and Michelle lived who's in prison for

0:48:25.160 --> 0:48:28.520
<v Speaker 2>a murder right now in the same area. And when

0:48:28.520 --> 0:48:32.200
<v Speaker 2>they look extensively into his criminal records, they find another

0:48:32.320 --> 0:48:35.360
<v Speaker 2>murder that he probably committed but he got acquitted of

0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:38.880
<v Speaker 2>the year before, and he's extraordinarily violent. He's in and

0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:42.640
<v Speaker 2>out of juvenile detention facilities, has an arrest record from

0:48:42.680 --> 0:48:46.440
<v Speaker 2>the age of ten up until he's finally incarcerated at

0:48:46.440 --> 0:48:49.680
<v Speaker 2>the age of nineteen for another murder. So now they're

0:48:49.719 --> 0:48:52.000
<v Speaker 2>looking at this guy's like, this isn't a tow truck driver,

0:48:52.080 --> 0:48:55.360
<v Speaker 2>This isn't a detective, It isn't any of those things.

0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:57.960
<v Speaker 2>It's not you know, some stereo fief for something that

0:48:58.080 --> 0:49:02.239
<v Speaker 2>stumbles it. It's an actual murderer. Can we start an investigation?

0:49:02.520 --> 0:49:05.520
<v Speaker 2>And that's where you see the state really double down,

0:49:05.880 --> 0:49:08.479
<v Speaker 2>like you would think that new evidence of a known

0:49:08.560 --> 0:49:11.399
<v Speaker 2>killer whose fingerprints are found in his car the last

0:49:11.400 --> 0:49:14.759
<v Speaker 2>place Michelle's been. It takes six years to get Leo

0:49:14.920 --> 0:49:17.960
<v Speaker 2>into a hearing to look at this new evidence. It's

0:49:18.000 --> 0:49:21.120
<v Speaker 2>just like slow walking it. It just takes forever, and

0:49:21.160 --> 0:49:24.480
<v Speaker 2>you start to recognize that's what finality looks like. They

0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:27.360
<v Speaker 2>do not want to revisit this and possibly lose this conviction.

0:49:27.840 --> 0:49:30.680
<v Speaker 2>That's where the case really turns. The young man's name

0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:31.720
<v Speaker 2>is Jeremy Scott.

0:49:32.000 --> 0:49:34.000
<v Speaker 1>Is he related to Alice Scott?

0:49:34.280 --> 0:49:36.000
<v Speaker 2>No, And that's the first thing they look into and

0:49:36.040 --> 0:49:39.480
<v Speaker 2>they find no relation there. But it's pretty troubling that

0:49:39.560 --> 0:49:42.480
<v Speaker 2>they have this prince come back to him. So they

0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:45.120
<v Speaker 2>send a cold case detective up to the jail to

0:49:45.200 --> 0:49:50.280
<v Speaker 2>interview him, and basically he's in a defensive mode because

0:49:50.760 --> 0:49:54.400
<v Speaker 2>his original crime sent him to death row and he

0:49:54.440 --> 0:49:56.719
<v Speaker 2>got off because he was an abused child and had

0:49:57.360 --> 0:49:59.840
<v Speaker 2>all these mitigating factors. So they gave him life and

0:50:00.440 --> 0:50:02.880
<v Speaker 2>they tell him, your fingerprints were found in this murdered victim,

0:50:03.480 --> 0:50:06.680
<v Speaker 2>and they show him pictures and he claims to not

0:50:06.760 --> 0:50:08.800
<v Speaker 2>know anything about it, and he says, was the stereo

0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:11.480
<v Speaker 2>take it? And they're like, yes it was, and he says, yeah,

0:50:11.480 --> 0:50:14.240
<v Speaker 2>I used to steal stereos. And so when they finally

0:50:14.280 --> 0:50:17.719
<v Speaker 2>get into the hearing in twenty ten, John Aguero, the prosecutor,

0:50:17.840 --> 0:50:20.839
<v Speaker 2>is also the prosecutor who sent Jeremy Scott to death row.

0:50:21.480 --> 0:50:25.520
<v Speaker 2>So this same prosecutor prosecuted Leo and Jeremy. So now

0:50:25.520 --> 0:50:27.680
<v Speaker 2>you have these two guys that are both connected to

0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:30.520
<v Speaker 2>the death or to Michelle Scofield, which one of them

0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:33.839
<v Speaker 2>did this? Right, That's what this defense is trying to argue.

0:50:33.840 --> 0:50:36.840
<v Speaker 2>It's the guy that's really violent that did this. But

0:50:36.880 --> 0:50:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the state is saying, well, John Aguero talked to him

0:50:39.440 --> 0:50:43.680
<v Speaker 2>in his office, no witnesses, no police, no tape recorder,

0:50:44.040 --> 0:50:45.520
<v Speaker 2>and they come up with the story that he's a

0:50:45.560 --> 0:50:46.280
<v Speaker 2>stereo thief.

0:50:46.480 --> 0:50:48.200
<v Speaker 1>He just found this car on the side of the

0:50:48.239 --> 0:50:50.200
<v Speaker 1>road and was like, I'm going to take this right now,

0:50:50.200 --> 0:50:52.320
<v Speaker 1>where's that nobody's here. Yeah, that's what I would have

0:50:52.360 --> 0:50:53.919
<v Speaker 1>said too, absolutely.

0:50:53.640 --> 0:50:55.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just Jeremy's bad luck that he happened to break

0:50:55.800 --> 0:50:57.880
<v Speaker 2>into a car of a girl who'd been murdered an

0:50:57.880 --> 0:51:00.359
<v Speaker 2>hour earlier. Right, But that's what they're going with. And

0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:03.120
<v Speaker 2>they go into this evidence you are hearing, and a

0:51:03.120 --> 0:51:06.080
<v Speaker 2>Polk County judge rules that, yes, that makes more sense

0:51:06.120 --> 0:51:10.440
<v Speaker 2>that he's a car stereo thief, forget his background. You know.

0:51:10.480 --> 0:51:12.440
<v Speaker 2>One of the things that comes up in this is

0:51:12.440 --> 0:51:16.239
<v Speaker 2>that they interview Jeremy's girlfriend, Jamie, and Jamie says, oh,

0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:19.160
<v Speaker 2>that place the cut where Michelle's body was found, that's

0:51:19.160 --> 0:51:20.879
<v Speaker 2>where he used to take me to have sex. That's

0:51:20.920 --> 0:51:23.600
<v Speaker 2>where we used to hang out, So what are the

0:51:23.640 --> 0:51:26.480
<v Speaker 2>odds that this guy's fingerprints is found in the same

0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:29.480
<v Speaker 2>place that Jeremy used to hang out take his girlfriends to.

0:51:30.040 --> 0:51:31.960
<v Speaker 2>There's this part of the story that just sort of

0:51:31.960 --> 0:51:34.799
<v Speaker 2>gets ignored and they just say no. I think they

0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.200
<v Speaker 2>called it extremely serendipitous that his fingerprints were found in

0:51:38.200 --> 0:51:40.400
<v Speaker 2>the car of a murdered victim. But he was a

0:51:40.440 --> 0:51:42.200
<v Speaker 2>stereo thief, so that's what they're going with.

0:51:42.480 --> 0:51:44.480
<v Speaker 1>It sounds like they can't get over the fact that

0:51:44.760 --> 0:51:48.319
<v Speaker 1>they don't think she's been sexually assaulted. We know that

0:51:48.360 --> 0:51:52.400
<v Speaker 1>somebody can be sexually assaulted without seeing these outward damages

0:51:52.520 --> 0:51:55.440
<v Speaker 1>or penetration or anything like that. But for what they're saying,

0:51:55.560 --> 0:51:58.680
<v Speaker 1>it's well, I mean, what's his motive He got the stereo, right,

0:51:58.760 --> 0:52:00.960
<v Speaker 1>what would be the motive of dabbing this woman twenty

0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:03.200
<v Speaker 1>seven times? He didn't rape her? Is that the impression

0:52:03.239 --> 0:52:05.279
<v Speaker 1>you get or is it something different? Yeah?

0:52:05.320 --> 0:52:07.439
<v Speaker 2>In fact, they use it in a real strange way.

0:52:07.440 --> 0:52:10.439
<v Speaker 2>They're like, you know, she's an attractive gal, like any

0:52:10.480 --> 0:52:13.320
<v Speaker 2>stranger would have raped her, but like if that's a husband,

0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:15.600
<v Speaker 2>he's not gonna you know, Like that's why it's just

0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:18.520
<v Speaker 2>a stabbing, and that's the argument they put forward. You know,

0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:20.879
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't really make a lot of sense, but that's

0:52:20.880 --> 0:52:23.120
<v Speaker 2>what they're still trying so hard to say. This is

0:52:23.160 --> 0:52:25.640
<v Speaker 2>not a stranger, this is not some psychotic this is

0:52:26.080 --> 0:52:28.399
<v Speaker 2>a passion killing. That's when you see stabbings a bunch

0:52:28.400 --> 0:52:31.080
<v Speaker 2>of times, like it's a husband and wife a fight.

0:52:31.200 --> 0:52:33.400
<v Speaker 2>Like that's what they go with. And you know, the defense,

0:52:33.560 --> 0:52:36.440
<v Speaker 2>to their credit, Jack Edmund blindly says, you know, like,

0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:38.560
<v Speaker 2>I think what we have out there is a ravenous

0:52:38.600 --> 0:52:41.680
<v Speaker 2>maniac who stabbed Michelle and enjoy a robbery. And but

0:52:41.800 --> 0:52:43.919
<v Speaker 2>you know, he didn't even look to see the fingerprints.

0:52:44.480 --> 0:52:47.160
<v Speaker 2>He could have argued that. Another strange thing is that

0:52:47.239 --> 0:52:50.960
<v Speaker 2>one of the investigators in the Michelle Schofield murder was

0:52:51.000 --> 0:52:53.800
<v Speaker 2>the lead investigator for the for the murder that Jeremy

0:52:53.800 --> 0:52:56.560
<v Speaker 2>got acquitted of, and he was absolutely convinced that they

0:52:56.600 --> 0:52:59.360
<v Speaker 2>had the right guy. But the Public Defender's office was

0:52:59.360 --> 0:53:02.399
<v Speaker 2>so good they got Jeremy off because basically they found

0:53:02.440 --> 0:53:05.520
<v Speaker 2>no fingerprints on the murder weapon, and the jury ended

0:53:05.560 --> 0:53:08.040
<v Speaker 2>up saying that kid didn't seem smart enough to wipe

0:53:08.040 --> 0:53:11.120
<v Speaker 2>fingerprints down, so I don't think he did it. And

0:53:11.200 --> 0:53:15.040
<v Speaker 2>so they acquitted him. But this particular detective like, why

0:53:15.040 --> 0:53:16.759
<v Speaker 2>didn't you look at those prints and say, who are

0:53:16.760 --> 0:53:19.360
<v Speaker 2>some known violent felons in the area. They could have

0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:22.000
<v Speaker 2>done a manual comparison, and that was never done, or

0:53:22.280 --> 0:53:24.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to say it was never done. The worst

0:53:24.920 --> 0:53:26.560
<v Speaker 2>side of it is that it was done and it

0:53:26.640 --> 0:53:29.400
<v Speaker 2>didn't like what they found. I didn't find any evidence

0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:32.000
<v Speaker 2>of that, but I'll tell you there was a pack

0:53:32.040 --> 0:53:36.279
<v Speaker 2>of Marlboro Reds sitting very close to the bloodstains that

0:53:36.480 --> 0:53:40.680
<v Speaker 2>was photographed by police but never processed, never fingerprinted. I

0:53:40.719 --> 0:53:43.879
<v Speaker 2>always found that very strange. It's the only object that's

0:53:43.920 --> 0:53:47.080
<v Speaker 2>photographed at the scene that was never tested. And you know,

0:53:47.160 --> 0:53:50.480
<v Speaker 2>if you look back at Jeremy's other cases, he smoked

0:53:50.480 --> 0:53:52.640
<v Speaker 2>Marlboro Reds and he left him at two other seats.

0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:54.960
<v Speaker 2>To me, it's just like I want to believe the

0:53:54.960 --> 0:53:57.600
<v Speaker 2>best that it was just incompetence, But sometimes I look

0:53:57.600 --> 0:53:58.920
<v Speaker 2>at this stuff and go, come on.

0:53:59.400 --> 0:54:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Well things, I mean with Jeremy for people to say,

0:54:03.239 --> 0:54:06.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, maybe his book smarts are not as adept

0:54:07.040 --> 0:54:09.560
<v Speaker 1>and you don't need that to get away with a crime,

0:54:09.760 --> 0:54:11.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, you don't. I think it's some of the

0:54:11.520 --> 0:54:14.520
<v Speaker 1>most intelligent killers I have ever written about were some

0:54:14.560 --> 0:54:18.239
<v Speaker 1>of the stupidest criminals, and then vice versa. So a

0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:20.560
<v Speaker 1>stereo thief has to be at least street smart to

0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:22.120
<v Speaker 1>be able to get away with that. You know, I

0:54:22.160 --> 0:54:23.840
<v Speaker 1>know he was in jail, but still and then you

0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:25.920
<v Speaker 1>know the other part. Paul and I talk about this

0:54:25.960 --> 0:54:28.839
<v Speaker 1>on the other show, about the idea of overkill, which

0:54:28.880 --> 0:54:31.960
<v Speaker 1>I think is way overblown. I think there is pure

0:54:32.200 --> 0:54:34.920
<v Speaker 1>rage anger, and it can be at a total stranger.

0:54:35.280 --> 0:54:38.200
<v Speaker 1>It does not have to be some intimate anything. Absolutely,

0:54:38.239 --> 0:54:40.160
<v Speaker 1>and Paul actually says it that I asked you about

0:54:40.200 --> 0:54:44.320
<v Speaker 1>the defense wounds, because he said, sometimes people stab that much.

0:54:44.800 --> 0:54:46.600
<v Speaker 1>You know, it doesn't matter if they're passionate or not.

0:54:46.680 --> 0:54:48.759
<v Speaker 1>It's the person keeps moving and you don't have a choice.

0:54:48.760 --> 0:54:51.239
<v Speaker 1>You're so scared that they're alive and they're gonna hurt you.

0:54:51.560 --> 0:54:55.200
<v Speaker 1>That's why they keep stabbing. It's not anger at that

0:54:55.400 --> 0:54:58.120
<v Speaker 1>specific woman. It can be anger at anybody, or it

0:54:58.120 --> 0:55:00.840
<v Speaker 1>could just be like he's scared he hasn't done the

0:55:00.920 --> 0:55:04.200
<v Speaker 1>job yet. So I think way too much. There's so

0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:06.920
<v Speaker 1>much assumption going on in this case of yours.

0:55:07.160 --> 0:55:09.239
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, I agree with you. Completely about that. Like,

0:55:09.280 --> 0:55:11.439
<v Speaker 2>I just feel like to call this a passion killing,

0:55:11.520 --> 0:55:13.120
<v Speaker 2>it has to be someone. Now you don't know that,

0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:15.319
<v Speaker 2>Like there's no way to know that. There's plenty of

0:55:15.360 --> 0:55:18.880
<v Speaker 2>stabbing victims that are total strangers, but in this particular case,

0:55:19.280 --> 0:55:21.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's pretty shocking that it comes back to

0:55:21.320 --> 0:55:23.759
<v Speaker 2>Jeremy Scott, who is in and out of prison, in

0:55:23.840 --> 0:55:26.800
<v Speaker 2>jail all the time, but on this particular night where Michelle,

0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:30.160
<v Speaker 2>we know he's in Lakeland, he's living in Lakeland, not

0:55:30.360 --> 0:55:33.560
<v Speaker 2>too far. In fact, his trailer he's staying in, his

0:55:33.600 --> 0:55:38.680
<v Speaker 2>grandmother's trailer is located almost exactly between Tom's restaurant where

0:55:38.719 --> 0:55:41.439
<v Speaker 2>Michelle last worked and the place she was found. It's

0:55:41.600 --> 0:55:43.680
<v Speaker 2>right in the middle of that. And we're only talking

0:55:43.719 --> 0:55:46.640
<v Speaker 2>a few miles, so you know, there you have it,

0:55:46.760 --> 0:55:48.879
<v Speaker 2>and this is a place he's known to hang out at.

0:55:49.040 --> 0:55:51.680
<v Speaker 1>And no alibia I assume for Jeremy Scott that night.

0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:54.640
<v Speaker 2>No, I've looked at the thing. Like, Jeremy's not a

0:55:54.719 --> 0:55:56.800
<v Speaker 2>really good liar either, And so when he's trying to

0:55:56.840 --> 0:55:59.680
<v Speaker 2>put a story in place about they ask him how

0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:01.400
<v Speaker 2>to tell that's how you stole the stereo, and he

0:56:01.480 --> 0:56:04.279
<v Speaker 2>describes it and you just like, if you do this enough,

0:56:04.320 --> 0:56:07.920
<v Speaker 2>you start to see weird things. He says, something really curious.

0:56:07.920 --> 0:56:10.480
<v Speaker 2>He says, well, I drove past the car, and then

0:56:10.480 --> 0:56:12.719
<v Speaker 2>I went to this gas station and I saw this

0:56:12.840 --> 0:56:15.080
<v Speaker 2>trash can there, and I stopped at the trash can,

0:56:15.120 --> 0:56:16.480
<v Speaker 2>and then I met a U turn and I decided

0:56:16.520 --> 0:56:18.480
<v Speaker 2>to go back and steal the stereo. Why would you

0:56:18.520 --> 0:56:21.279
<v Speaker 2>mention that trash can Like this is just something that's really.

0:56:21.120 --> 0:56:24.640
<v Speaker 1>Small, very detailed, So kind of give me the broad

0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:27.040
<v Speaker 1>strokes of how this goes. I know you got heavily

0:56:27.080 --> 0:56:30.640
<v Speaker 1>involved with this. You obviously feel like Leo is innocent

0:56:31.080 --> 0:56:34.520
<v Speaker 1>in Jeremy at a minimum needs to be better investigated.

0:56:34.840 --> 0:56:36.160
<v Speaker 1>But Leo's still in prison.

0:56:36.640 --> 0:56:40.120
<v Speaker 2>Well several years after. Jeremy doesn't get any help with

0:56:40.160 --> 0:56:42.760
<v Speaker 2>his parole. That's what he always said, Like they promised

0:56:42.760 --> 0:56:45.240
<v Speaker 2>you're gonna help me with my parole, and nothing ever happened.

0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:48.640
<v Speaker 2>And that prosecutor died. Jhona Guerro died. He said, now

0:56:48.680 --> 0:56:51.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm telling the truth. He was mad, and he wrote

0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:53.480
<v Speaker 2>a letter to Leo's lawyer and confessed to killing Michelle.

0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:55.840
<v Speaker 2>So I'll tell you everything, how I did it and everything.

0:56:56.360 --> 0:57:00.000
<v Speaker 2>And he did that, and ultimately I interviewed him in prison,

0:57:00.040 --> 0:57:04.400
<v Speaker 2>and he told I was walking down Comby Road. I

0:57:04.440 --> 0:57:07.440
<v Speaker 2>saw a girl at a payphone at this gas station.

0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:10.360
<v Speaker 2>She recognized me, he said. I didn't know who she was,

0:57:10.400 --> 0:57:12.440
<v Speaker 2>but she must have seen me in town or something

0:57:12.520 --> 0:57:15.319
<v Speaker 2>like that. And it was kind of raining. She said,

0:57:15.480 --> 0:57:17.960
<v Speaker 2>why are you all wet? He says, I need a ride,

0:57:18.040 --> 0:57:20.280
<v Speaker 2>and he said where he was going, and he led

0:57:20.320 --> 0:57:22.600
<v Speaker 2>her to the cut and he led her back there

0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:25.120
<v Speaker 2>and she says, there's no houses back here, and that's

0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:27.560
<v Speaker 2>when a knife comes out of his jacket pocket and

0:57:27.680 --> 0:57:31.120
<v Speaker 2>she starts panicking and screaming and fighting him, and he

0:57:31.160 --> 0:57:34.080
<v Speaker 2>attacked her. And after he attacked her, he said, I

0:57:34.120 --> 0:57:36.400
<v Speaker 2>smoked some cigarettes trying to figure out what to do.

0:57:36.840 --> 0:57:38.840
<v Speaker 2>Then I just dragged her into the water, and I

0:57:38.880 --> 0:57:41.360
<v Speaker 2>took the car and was going back to my mom's house,

0:57:41.520 --> 0:57:45.080
<v Speaker 2>which is in that direction. Car broke down. Why did

0:57:45.080 --> 0:57:47.880
<v Speaker 2>it break down? He said, Michelle got so scared that

0:57:47.960 --> 0:57:49.960
<v Speaker 2>she drove the car out of trying to drive out

0:57:49.960 --> 0:57:52.760
<v Speaker 2>of the cut, and he slammed it into park and

0:57:53.080 --> 0:57:56.600
<v Speaker 2>something happened mechanically to the car that is consistent with

0:57:56.640 --> 0:58:00.360
<v Speaker 2>somebody doing that slamming a moving car into park him

0:58:00.360 --> 0:58:04.440
<v Speaker 2>for four years. Since then, he's never denied killing Michelle. Ever,

0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:09.200
<v Speaker 2>he goes into extreme detail. He also confessed to killing

0:58:09.240 --> 0:58:11.960
<v Speaker 2>somebody else that he'd gotten away with, and it absolutely matches.

0:58:12.240 --> 0:58:14.680
<v Speaker 2>He drew me a map of all his movements and

0:58:14.720 --> 0:58:16.760
<v Speaker 2>he just said, I want to help Leo. He doesn't

0:58:16.760 --> 0:58:18.800
<v Speaker 2>belong in prison. I'm the one who killed his wife.

0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:21.560
<v Speaker 1>So now what I mean, do we have a new problem.

0:58:21.560 --> 0:58:24.040
<v Speaker 1>We must have a new prosecutor on Lakeland at this point.

0:58:24.320 --> 0:58:27.320
<v Speaker 2>Nope, there is somebody new, but they've just doubled down.

0:58:27.960 --> 0:58:30.560
<v Speaker 2>This case is so obvious at this point it feels

0:58:30.600 --> 0:58:32.919
<v Speaker 2>even embarrassing talking about the trial because it has nothing

0:58:32.920 --> 0:58:35.680
<v Speaker 2>to do with the facts. Jeremy Scott is clearly the

0:58:35.760 --> 0:58:39.080
<v Speaker 2>killer in this case. In fact, Leo and Jeremy. Leo

0:58:39.160 --> 0:58:44.000
<v Speaker 2>finally got out last year on parole. He's still convicted

0:58:44.080 --> 0:58:45.560
<v Speaker 2>murder in the eyes of the state, but he's out

0:58:45.560 --> 0:58:48.600
<v Speaker 2>on parole at least. And he believes that Jeremy coming

0:58:48.680 --> 0:58:51.800
<v Speaker 2>clean is what did it. Because our podcast came out

0:58:51.880 --> 0:58:54.080
<v Speaker 2>and it was just, you know, obvious to everyone who

0:58:54.120 --> 0:58:57.360
<v Speaker 2>listened that Jeremy Scott is the real killer and it's

0:58:57.360 --> 0:58:59.280
<v Speaker 2>not a case of like some guy saying I'll take

0:58:59.280 --> 0:59:02.640
<v Speaker 2>the fall. He was there, he lived there, and he

0:59:02.880 --> 0:59:05.600
<v Speaker 2>talked about details that you know, nobody should have known,

0:59:05.960 --> 0:59:08.240
<v Speaker 2>and I looked into his case. I've been writing to him,

0:59:08.280 --> 0:59:10.760
<v Speaker 2>talking to him even to this day, and he's admitted

0:59:10.800 --> 0:59:12.720
<v Speaker 2>to all the murders he's committed, even though he only

0:59:12.720 --> 0:59:13.720
<v Speaker 2>got caught on one of them.

0:59:13.880 --> 0:59:16.200
<v Speaker 1>Can the Innocence Project in New York get involved with

0:59:16.240 --> 0:59:17.840
<v Speaker 1>this or is there a project involved?

0:59:18.120 --> 0:59:21.000
<v Speaker 2>The Innocence Project of Florida has had the case, but

0:59:21.120 --> 0:59:23.160
<v Speaker 2>basically they've just doubled down and said, you know what

0:59:23.200 --> 0:59:26.680
<v Speaker 2>a jury has spoken, the appellate courts has spoken. You know,

0:59:26.720 --> 0:59:29.360
<v Speaker 2>it's the same thing that every wrongful conviction has. Yes,

0:59:29.480 --> 0:59:32.000
<v Speaker 2>juries have ruled against you, and the pellate courts have

0:59:32.080 --> 0:59:34.560
<v Speaker 2>ruled against you. There's powerful people, I can tell you

0:59:34.600 --> 0:59:38.240
<v Speaker 2>in Leo's corner, including the chairman of the Criminal Justice Committee,

0:59:38.240 --> 0:59:41.560
<v Speaker 2>who actually testified at Leo's hearing saying this is an

0:59:41.600 --> 0:59:44.040
<v Speaker 2>abomination and makes him sick to his stomach that this

0:59:44.160 --> 0:59:47.240
<v Speaker 2>man is still in prison for this crime. He's got

0:59:47.240 --> 0:59:49.560
<v Speaker 2>some very powerful people out there, but there's an island

0:59:49.680 --> 0:59:52.400
<v Speaker 2>in this one circuit that just will not let go

0:59:52.480 --> 0:59:54.880
<v Speaker 2>of this and they're just they will not let the

0:59:54.960 --> 0:59:55.600
<v Speaker 2>conviction go.

0:59:56.400 --> 0:59:59.040
<v Speaker 1>That's unbelievable because I mean that is you know, demanding

0:59:59.080 --> 1:00:01.800
<v Speaker 1>relief because of new evidence, not I mean, I know

1:00:01.840 --> 1:00:05.160
<v Speaker 1>it's things that Jack Edmund missed as his defense attorney.

1:00:05.160 --> 1:00:07.160
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, this is no this is

1:00:07.200 --> 1:00:10.160
<v Speaker 1>somebody who's confessing that's unreal and there's no DNA right

1:00:10.200 --> 1:00:11.680
<v Speaker 1>because everything got thrown.

1:00:11.440 --> 1:00:14.840
<v Speaker 2>Out, everything was destroyed, and you know, it's just it's

1:00:15.000 --> 1:00:16.920
<v Speaker 2>it's a really embarrassing I think to just look at

1:00:16.920 --> 1:00:18.560
<v Speaker 2>this case and look at the facts of it and

1:00:18.600 --> 1:00:22.040
<v Speaker 2>just see that the state is just still taking this position.

1:00:22.160 --> 1:00:24.440
<v Speaker 2>You know that they ended up saying that Jeremy Scott

1:00:24.480 --> 1:00:26.680
<v Speaker 2>because he once said that he didn't do it, and

1:00:26.680 --> 1:00:28.440
<v Speaker 2>now he says he does he did do it, that

1:00:28.520 --> 1:00:31.200
<v Speaker 2>you can't believe a word he says. So they have

1:00:31.240 --> 1:00:33.480
<v Speaker 2>to throw it all out with the bathwater. It's like,

1:00:33.600 --> 1:00:35.040
<v Speaker 2>how about doing an investigation?

1:00:35.320 --> 1:00:39.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, did he talk to anybody else about this who's

1:00:39.120 --> 1:00:41.480
<v Speaker 1>not currently in prison or when he I mean, is

1:00:41.720 --> 1:00:43.800
<v Speaker 1>there anybody who corroborate what he's saying.

1:00:44.160 --> 1:00:46.400
<v Speaker 2>There's one person that we believe, but you know, the

1:00:46.440 --> 1:00:49.560
<v Speaker 2>state just attacked him. He was like the jailhouse lawyer,

1:00:49.960 --> 1:00:52.320
<v Speaker 2>and after he found out that that his fingerprints were

1:00:52.360 --> 1:00:54.320
<v Speaker 2>found there, he worried that he's going to get sent

1:00:54.360 --> 1:00:57.400
<v Speaker 2>back to death row. He apparently confessed to this other

1:00:57.480 --> 1:01:00.280
<v Speaker 2>jailhouse lawyer. But you know, they just destroyed that guy's

1:01:00.320 --> 1:01:02.520
<v Speaker 2>credibility on the stand and made it seem like this

1:01:02.680 --> 1:01:06.000
<v Speaker 2>is just a bunch of crazy people talking. And you know, granted, Jeremy,

1:01:06.200 --> 1:01:10.520
<v Speaker 2>he's off his meds, he's upset in court, and you know,

1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:12.959
<v Speaker 2>they make him look kind of crazy that he's sitting

1:01:13.000 --> 1:01:15.240
<v Speaker 2>in a git in a psych cell, eating off his fingers,

1:01:15.320 --> 1:01:16.880
<v Speaker 2>and so they made him just seem like a not

1:01:17.000 --> 1:01:20.640
<v Speaker 2>credible witness, and so that's easy for them to dismiss him.

1:01:20.640 --> 1:01:22.200
<v Speaker 2>But I think it's one of the laziest things you

1:01:22.200 --> 1:01:24.280
<v Speaker 2>could do, because if you sit down with that guy,

1:01:24.880 --> 1:01:26.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, he tells you the things he did, and

1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:28.560
<v Speaker 2>he's you know, he's coming clean about his.

1:01:28.560 --> 1:01:31.520
<v Speaker 1>Life, okay, And a couple of sentence says, what did

1:01:31.560 --> 1:01:32.720
<v Speaker 1>you learn from all of this?

1:01:33.440 --> 1:01:35.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, I guess I learned that you don't really

1:01:35.920 --> 1:01:39.080
<v Speaker 2>guaranteed to get truth in a courtroom because how a

1:01:39.120 --> 1:01:41.520
<v Speaker 2>lot of stuff is just inadmissible and a verdicts don't

1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:43.560
<v Speaker 2>really have to do a truth. I find if you

1:01:43.560 --> 1:01:45.640
<v Speaker 2>look at our second season, it really gets to the

1:01:45.680 --> 1:01:48.360
<v Speaker 2>bottom of it. We you know, we go back into

1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:49.760
<v Speaker 2>this case, but we do it from a different side.

1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:52.560
<v Speaker 2>We do it from Jeremy's side, and it's all about

1:01:52.600 --> 1:01:56.040
<v Speaker 2>my conversations and my relationship with Jeremy and all the

1:01:56.120 --> 1:01:59.360
<v Speaker 2>remorse when Leo Schofield doesn't show remorse in a parole

1:01:59.400 --> 1:02:02.800
<v Speaker 2>hearing because he says, I have a claim of innocence

1:02:02.840 --> 1:02:06.280
<v Speaker 2>that I've never wavered from. I cannot apologize for killing

1:02:06.320 --> 1:02:10.280
<v Speaker 2>someone I did not kill. All the remorse is Jeremy's remorse.

1:02:10.720 --> 1:02:13.800
<v Speaker 2>He like cried in our interview. You know, He's like,

1:02:13.880 --> 1:02:16.840
<v Speaker 2>I think about Michelle all the time. I'm torment. This

1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:18.760
<v Speaker 2>is my punishment. I go to bed and see the

1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:21.920
<v Speaker 2>faces of the people I killed at night. That's my punishment.

1:02:22.200 --> 1:02:24.600
<v Speaker 2>I think anybody who listens to him will just side.

1:02:24.600 --> 1:02:26.560
<v Speaker 2>The state has this completely backward.

1:02:26.520 --> 1:02:28.320
<v Speaker 1>And I think our listeners know how rare it is

1:02:28.360 --> 1:02:30.560
<v Speaker 1>to get some kind of a confession like that to

1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:32.800
<v Speaker 1>be able to play on a podcast and really build

1:02:32.800 --> 1:02:35.240
<v Speaker 1>the case that you've built. I know that Leo is out,

1:02:35.840 --> 1:02:38.240
<v Speaker 1>but this is hanging over him and will until he

1:02:38.280 --> 1:02:41.160
<v Speaker 1>dies unless you know, this gets expunged or somebody can

1:02:41.240 --> 1:02:44.160
<v Speaker 1>help in some way. And so you know, I'm pulling

1:02:44.200 --> 1:02:46.640
<v Speaker 1>for you because you did some hard work on this

1:02:46.720 --> 1:02:48.680
<v Speaker 1>and I know how personal you're taking this, So I

1:02:49.000 --> 1:02:51.040
<v Speaker 1>hope it works out for both of you really with this.

1:02:51.320 --> 1:02:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you know, I've been through this with my stories

1:02:53.320 --> 1:02:56.640
<v Speaker 2>in the past, and eventually, like it's undeniable, it just

1:02:56.680 --> 1:02:58.840
<v Speaker 2>needs to be handled by the right person to come along.

1:02:58.920 --> 1:03:00.880
<v Speaker 2>And there are some really good people and Leo's corner

1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:03.400
<v Speaker 2>that are not quitting on this, and Leo isn't either.

1:03:03.680 --> 1:03:06.520
<v Speaker 2>He just says, this is about justice for my dead wife.

1:03:06.680 --> 1:03:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't want her in all of eternity believing that

1:03:09.640 --> 1:03:12.560
<v Speaker 2>something like I did this. It's not the truth, and

1:03:12.600 --> 1:03:25.600
<v Speaker 2>he goes, I have to just get justice for my wife.

1:03:26.280 --> 1:03:29.160
<v Speaker 1>If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1:03:29.200 --> 1:03:32.080
<v Speaker 1>audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1:03:32.200 --> 1:03:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget. There are

1:03:35.520 --> 1:03:39.280
<v Speaker 1>twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1:03:39.320 --> 1:03:42.960
<v Speaker 1>Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1:03:43.000 --> 1:03:45.760
<v Speaker 1>give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1:03:45.800 --> 1:03:50.280
<v Speaker 1>been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

1:03:50.680 --> 1:03:55.120
<v Speaker 1>Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1:03:55.160 --> 1:03:59.040
<v Speaker 1>by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer. Artwork by

1:03:59.200 --> 1:04:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

1:04:03.680 --> 1:04:07.800
<v Speaker 1>Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app,

1:04:07.960 --> 1:04:11.680
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Wicked

1:04:11.680 --> 1:04:15.920
<v Speaker 1>Words on Instagram at tenfold more Wicked, and on Facebook

1:04:16.000 --> 1:04:17.560
<v Speaker 1>at wicked Words Pod