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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: He sees his father coming out of the woods with

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Speaker 2: his hands over his face, and he knows something happened.

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Speaker 2: His father just grabs him and says, she's gone. She's gone.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. We might have our first

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Speaker 1: Pulitzer Prize winner on our show Today, author Gilbert King

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Speaker 1: digs into cases of wrongful conviction, and today we're talking

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Speaker 1: about his outstanding podcast, Bone Valley season two. Gilbert explores

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Speaker 1: the nineteen eighty seven murder of Michelle Schofield in Florida.

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Speaker 1: It's a story of justice forgiveness and the possibility of redemption.

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Speaker 1: So this story is Lakeland, Florida, nineteen eighty seven. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell me what nineteen eighty seven is like? I

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Speaker 1: was thirteen, So what was it nineteen eighty seven like

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Speaker 1: in Florida or in the nation.

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Speaker 2: I was a little bit older than that, but I

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Speaker 2: went to college down there. So I used to drive

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Speaker 2: through Lakeland, and I remember Lakeland is just this kind

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Speaker 2: of hard rock capital of Florida. They used to have

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Speaker 2: Lakely Civic Center had this heavy metal fetish. I guess

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Speaker 2: you'd say they had. Everybody would show up, you know,

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Speaker 2: my crew, you name it. They were there and it

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Speaker 2: was like the place. And so you know, just driving

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Speaker 2: past your radio ads, you know, these are the days

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Speaker 2: before cell phones and concerts were really huge. A lot

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Speaker 2: of metal bands were big, and they were all playing

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Speaker 2: in Lakeland. Lakeland is kind of like the poor stepchild

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Speaker 2: between Tampa and Orlando. It's a smaller little town and

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Speaker 2: it's right off eye for the car door between Orlando

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Speaker 2: and Tampa, and so it's a little bit more rural too.

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Speaker 2: I mean, back then, a lot of orange growths, a

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Speaker 2: lot of phosphate business, agriculture, whereas you know, Tampa and

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Speaker 2: Orlando were a little more thriving in terms of urban centers,

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Speaker 2: so that was pretty much it. Lakeland was just I've

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Speaker 2: got every part of America really, you know, it was

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Speaker 2: just had everything you could imagine, but it was more

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Speaker 2: of a rural community and you know, the nineteen eighties,

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Speaker 2: there's no cell phones. It's just a little bit of

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Speaker 2: a different vibe. And I really love the heavy metal

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Speaker 2: aspect because Leo Schofield, who's at the center of it,

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Speaker 2: is this Boston kid who moves down to Florida with

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Speaker 2: the parents, doesn't really want to leave New England, but

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Speaker 2: there he is. He's got the thick Boston accent and

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Speaker 2: he's a heavy metal dude, long hair. He's aspiring musician.

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Speaker 2: He plays lead guitar. He's in a band.

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Speaker 1: Called Rhino Okay, so, and he is not an outcast

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Speaker 1: in this town which we hear from sometimes it sounds

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Speaker 1: like he fits right into this place.

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Speaker 2: Well in some ways he does, because he's got this

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Speaker 2: music connection and he's a very good guitarist, so bands

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Speaker 2: wanted him and he plays the part really well. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's thin guy, long black hair, twenty years old. He's

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Speaker 2: just good at what he does. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 2: he comes down here from Boston and he's like, I

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Speaker 2: don't get the cowboy hats. I don't get these gator shirts,

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Speaker 2: you know, like I don't have a pickup truck. I'm

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Speaker 2: not that kind of guy. Like I'm a motorcycle riding

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Speaker 2: you know. Jean's vest heavy metal dude. So he really

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Speaker 2: had to look for his tribe, so to speak. And

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Speaker 2: he does find it in these bandmates. That becomes his thing.

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Speaker 2: But you know, he doesn't feel comfortable there. He drops

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Speaker 2: out of high school, starts doing odd jobs. He's all

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Speaker 2: about doing the music. He sees that as his.

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Speaker 1: Career, okay, and he ends up meeting a young woman

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Speaker 1: is Michelle from Lakeland, Florida.

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Speaker 2: Also yes, she got born and raised in Lakeland. She

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Speaker 2: grew up there, you know. And Leo first meets her.

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Speaker 2: I think she's sixteen years old. He's going there to

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Speaker 2: give this friend to his Manny guitar lessons. And Mannie

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Speaker 2: is kind of like Michelle's boyfriend, except Manny's got his

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Speaker 2: eyes on a lot of other girls. He's not really

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Speaker 2: paying attention. It was kind of like this good looking

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Speaker 2: serfer dude, and you know, Michelle is just one of

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Speaker 2: his many girls, I guess you would say. But Leo

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Speaker 2: just is struck by her immediately when he meets her.

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Speaker 2: But Manny gets himself into some trouble and goes off

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Speaker 2: to a juvenile facility for some kind of I don't

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Speaker 2: really know what it was. It involved a gun, nobody

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Speaker 2: was killed or anything like that, but he's looking at

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Speaker 2: a long, lengthy sentence. And when he finally goes away

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Speaker 2: to this juvenile detention center in Florida, Michelle is kind

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Speaker 2: of lonely and she meets Leo, and you know, they

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Speaker 2: start hanging out as friends and coming to concerts and

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Speaker 2: stuff like that. But as time goes by, see they're

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Speaker 2: spending a lot of time together. They're clearly interested in

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Speaker 2: each other. And so with Manny gone, Leo decides, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I guess we can do this, and you know, right

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Speaker 2: away they're practically living together.

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Speaker 1: Wow, and so young too. What do we know about

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Speaker 1: Michelle personality wise? What kind of family she came from,

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Speaker 1: any of that stuff?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she comes with a broke from a broken family.

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Speaker 2: Her mom and dad divorced. Mom moves back to Texas,

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Speaker 2: gets in a really bad car accident and has some

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Speaker 2: kind of brain damage. So it's Michelle and her two

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Speaker 2: older brother, a younger brother and an older brother, and

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Speaker 2: they're living in Lakeland. But you know, the dad is

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Speaker 2: works in the phosphate minds. He runs a dragline. He's

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Speaker 2: got really long hours. So they're kind of got a

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Speaker 2: lot of freedom, and Leo's not used to that kind

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Speaker 2: of freedom. Leo's parents are very involved, but Michelle can

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Speaker 2: pretty much come and go as she pleases. They looked

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Speaker 2: at their father, David, as a sort of like a

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Speaker 2: roommate rather than a father. You know, he was pretty

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Speaker 2: lax about that. But the kids weren't in trouble or anything.

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Speaker 2: They were, you know, good kids. But they're really on

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Speaker 2: their own. Michelle was working in fast food or she

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Speaker 2: was selling Amway products, you know, even at fifteen, sixteen

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Speaker 2: years old, so she's off pretty much on her own.

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Speaker 2: And when she meets Leo, they you know, they're they're

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Speaker 2: dating right away, and they decide they just want to

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Speaker 2: get their own place because they both have jobs. And

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Speaker 2: so they get a trailer in a low income area

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Speaker 2: of Lakeland and move in together and start living their

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Speaker 2: life that way.

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Speaker 1: And tell me again, as far as aspirations. Do either

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Speaker 1: of these kids have aspirations? I know that it sounds

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Speaker 1: Leo really wants to stay in music, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Leo's definitely like he's got heavy metal on his mind.

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Speaker 2: He's in this band, right, I know they're practicing all

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Speaker 2: the time. Michelle not so much. She's still trying to

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Speaker 2: figure things out. You know, at this point, she just

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Speaker 2: turned seventeen, and you know, she does like metal music

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Speaker 2: and she does like to sing, but she's really figuring

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Speaker 2: herself out. But you know, the relationship with Leo and

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Speaker 2: she sort of falls into the homemaker role at early.

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Speaker 2: It's at seventeen. I mean, she's just she's got that down,

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Speaker 2: works a job. She gets this new job at Tom's restaurant.

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Speaker 2: She's a waitress there, and and everything's going, you know,

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Speaker 2: well with her, except you know Leo. And Leo's kind

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Speaker 2: of a volatile guy, and that's sort of a key

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Speaker 2: to the whole story. He's got a temper. You know,

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Speaker 2: he talked to his bandmates and like at one point

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Speaker 2: there was one girl that he was dating and in

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Speaker 2: the middle of a concert he saw her flash another

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Speaker 2: guy lift her top up and let that sets Leo off,

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Speaker 2: you know, he runs off the stage, throws his guitar

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Speaker 2: into a bonfire, storms into the woods. He's a very

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Speaker 2: temperamental guy. And you know, they talk him back out,

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Speaker 2: come back to the concert. Come on, Leo, it's okay.

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Speaker 2: They pull the guitar out of the bonfires, still got

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Speaker 2: burn marks on it. He still plays it, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so that pretty much describes Leo, who's like I

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Speaker 2: think he's like nineteen or twenty at the time when

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Speaker 2: this happened.

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Speaker 1: Wow, okay, I was going to ask what the general

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Speaker 1: impressions are a family and friends of their relationship. Is

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Speaker 1: he volatile with her very much?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, they're They're known to fight, and Leo's got

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Speaker 2: a temper. And you know, roommates who'd come into the

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Speaker 2: trailer and all say the same thing, like they'd hear

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Speaker 2: the door shut, they'd hear crashing, slamming, throwing things around,

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Speaker 2: and you know they nobody ever saw That's the thing

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Speaker 2: like that, nobody really ever saw Leo hit her or

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Speaker 2: anything like that, but they assumed it was happening, something

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Speaker 2: was going on, and like he had a really bad temper,

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Speaker 2: and most of his temper was based around the fact

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Speaker 2: that Michelle didn't have a driver's license. She had a

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Speaker 2: learning permit, so she wasn't supposed to be driving the car,

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Speaker 2: but Leo had to get a car, and so she

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Speaker 2: would often take the car and go out and disappear,

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Speaker 2: and Leo had no way of knowing where she was,

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Speaker 2: and it would scare him because one time she got

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Speaker 2: and pulled over by police and they kind of let

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Speaker 2: her go with a warning. But you know, she would

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Speaker 2: just take the car all the time and go off

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Speaker 2: with friends, and Leo saw that as a problem because

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Speaker 2: she didn't have insurance and she wasn't really licensed, and

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Speaker 2: so Leo just said, just check in with me, let

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Speaker 2: me know where you are, And that was one of

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Speaker 2: the things that they thought about the most.

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Speaker 1: Has anybody interpreted that in intead of him being kind

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Speaker 1: of just concerned about her getting picked up of the

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Speaker 1: police or wrecking the car or doing any number of

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Speaker 1: things that someone might has that been interpreted ever as

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Speaker 1: him being increasingly controlling over a young woman that he married.

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Speaker 2: Also, Yeah, and he admits it too. You know, he

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Speaker 2: just said, I was immature, I didn't really know, I

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Speaker 2: was not ready for a relationship. What ended up happening

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Speaker 2: was because they were fighting they decided to go to

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Speaker 2: a church. They had a fellow painter that Leo was

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Speaker 2: doing odd jobs with, and he said, you ought to

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Speaker 2: come and check out this Baptist church, and so Leo

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Speaker 2: did and they went together and they liked it. But

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Speaker 2: one of the things the church said is you're living

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Speaker 2: together in sin, you got to get married. And they

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Speaker 2: have really only known each other for a few months,

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Speaker 2: and they kind of felt some pressure from the church

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Speaker 2: to sort of, you know, solidify their relationship by marrying.

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Speaker 2: And Leo was like, you know, I love her. I

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Speaker 2: was nineteen twenty. Do I want to spend the rest

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Speaker 2: of my life? Leo said, you know, frankly, I do.

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Speaker 2: I really this is a good different girl from me.

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Speaker 2: I really liked her because I wasn't sure a Shell

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Speaker 2: was ready for marriage though, and we talked about it

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Speaker 2: and she said she's ready. And so they decided to

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Speaker 2: get married very quickly, put together within a matter of

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Speaker 2: I think two weeks, borrowed some clothes from like other

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Speaker 2: parishioners who had recently got married, and they put together

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Speaker 2: this wedding really quick, and the next thing you know,

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Speaker 2: they're newlyweds and living in this trailer together comeby section

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Speaker 2: of Lakeland.

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Speaker 1: So how long are they married before what happens happens?

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Speaker 2: Right, So they get married in August of eighty six.

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Speaker 2: They're living in this trailer. Six months later is when

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Speaker 2: Leo goes into band practice. One night, he worked all

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Speaker 2: day with the drummer's father. He did, like laid down

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Speaker 2: lines for a cable company, and they had band practice

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Speaker 2: this night, February twenty fourth, nineteen eighty seven. You know,

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Speaker 2: they don't have a phone in the trailer, so all

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Speaker 2: their calls are sort of calling at Vince's house, and

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Speaker 2: whenever they call, they had to call from a payphone

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Speaker 2: at a gas station. But on this particular night, Leo's

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Speaker 2: waiting at band practice. Arrangements like, after you finish your

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Speaker 2: shift to Tom's restaurant, come by the band practice, hang

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Speaker 2: out with us, then we'll go out and grab something

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Speaker 2: to eat. That was the plan. But Michelle's shift ended

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Speaker 2: at eight pm and Leo doesn't hear, so he's kind

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Speaker 2: of already getting worried. Look, she knows to call here,

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Speaker 2: she knew the number. Where is she? Nobody really knew.

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Speaker 2: But at nine forty five pm, finally Michelle calls, and

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Speaker 2: she calls on the payphone. She says, look, I finished

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Speaker 2: my shift at eight, I went home, I did the laundry,

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Speaker 2: I fed the dogs, and now I'm ready to come over.

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Speaker 2: And Leo's like, great, thank you for calling. This is

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Speaker 2: like you know, He's saying to her, like, this is great.

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Speaker 2: Now we don't have to have a fight because you

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Speaker 2: called me and everything worked out. I know where you

237
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Speaker 2: are and she should be there within about ten or

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Speaker 2: fifteen minutes, and she said she'd be right over. The

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Speaker 2: phone call ends with both of them saying I love you.

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Speaker 2: Ten fifteen minutes pass no sign of Michelle. An hour passes,

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Speaker 2: no sign of Michelle, and now Leo is starting to

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Speaker 2: panic because this is not like her usually when something

243
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Speaker 2: like this happens. She said I'll be right over or

244
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Speaker 2: she's calming, but she hasn't shown. And now it's like

245
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Speaker 2: eleven PM, eleven thirty, and Leo's getting really worried. He

246
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Speaker 2: calls his father and said, Dad, you got to come

247
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Speaker 2: get me. I don't know where Michelle is. She said

248
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Speaker 2: she'd be right over. I don't know if her car

249
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Speaker 2: broke down, if she got an accident. He starts making

250
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Speaker 2: some phone calls. There's three hours that pass, and Leo

251
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Speaker 2: is just hanging out with his friends and there's no

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Speaker 2: sign of Michelle.

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Speaker 1: Tell me where she made that phone call from again,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

255
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Speaker 2: She made it from a gas station called Sparky's, which

256
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Speaker 2: was right across the street from Tom's restaurant where she

257
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Speaker 2: was working, and that was sort of the closest one

258
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Speaker 2: to their house, so they used to use that one

259
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Speaker 2: the most.

260
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Speaker 1: So she never ended up going back to the trailer.

261
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Speaker 1: She was supposed to go straight from the restaurant. Is

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Speaker 1: that right?

263
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Speaker 2: She was supposed to come straight from the restaurant. But

264
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Speaker 2: she did say, like, I had to do someth like

265
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Speaker 2: just some laundry at my dad's house earlier that day,

266
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Speaker 2: and I went back and folded it. And then they

267
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Speaker 2: had two little puppies, and so she went back and

268
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Speaker 2: walked them and fed them and did some stuff. And

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Speaker 2: she stayed till like nine forty five, that's when she

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Speaker 2: got back to the gas station. It was a little

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Speaker 2: late for Leo's taste, but he knew he was supposed

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Speaker 2: to be. He knew he was going to be practicing

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Speaker 2: to at least ten anyway.

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Speaker 1: So just for a practical question for later on, are

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Speaker 1: there people who see her making this phone call from

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Speaker 1: Sparky's to him at whatever time that was.

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Speaker 2: No because Sparky's is closed at this hour. She had

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Speaker 2: gone in there earlier after a shift change. She got

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Speaker 2: three dollars worth of gas and she bought a coke.

280
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Speaker 2: And so she told Leo on the phone. She made

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Speaker 2: thirteen dollars in tips because she called at the friend's house,

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Speaker 2: and there are a lot of witnesses there who like

283
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Speaker 2: kind of heard the conversation. There was like no doubt

284
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Speaker 2: that that had happened. Even the state later on said,

285
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Speaker 2: you know, we agree that that happened, you know, and

286
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Speaker 2: they could mark time at nine forty five, and so yeah,

287
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Speaker 2: there was no real dispute about that call.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So she vanishes, but she has the car, the

289
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Speaker 1: family car, right.

290
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Speaker 2: Right, And that's the thing. So Leo just like, I'm

291
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Speaker 2: going to just trace the steps, and so they try.

292
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Speaker 2: He tries with his father around eleven thirty. They drive

293
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Speaker 2: out closer to midnight. Actually they're driving around trying to

294
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Speaker 2: retrace the steps, driving by friend's house and seeing if

295
00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:07,760
Speaker 2: they could see any sign of a car. They drive

296
00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 2: past Leo's trailer. They don't see it. There there's no

297
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Speaker 2: sign of them. This is worrying. So they go back

298
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Speaker 2: to Vince's thinking, all, right, now, the time before cellphone,

299
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Speaker 2: she couldn't check in with Vince, right, So they go

300
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Speaker 2: back to Vince's house and say, well, that's where she

301
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Speaker 2: was likely headed. We should go back there. And they

302
00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,400
Speaker 2: get there and there's still no sign of her, and

303
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Speaker 2: Leo is getting really worried. At this point, his father

304
00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,320
Speaker 2: waits out in the truck in the driveway. Leo goes

305
00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,160
Speaker 2: inside and decides he's got to start making some calls.

306
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Speaker 2: At twelve forty three am, he calls the Sheriff's office,

307
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Speaker 2: Oh County Sheriff's office, and he reports her missing. And

308
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,600
Speaker 2: it's kind of frustrating because at this point she's eighteen

309
00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,800
Speaker 2: years old now, so it's not like it's a child

310
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Speaker 2: that's missing. They take the information, but there's not much

311
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Speaker 2: they can do it. They check in the jail to

312
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Speaker 2: see if maybe she got arrested for driving, you know,

313
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Speaker 2: without a license. She wasn't there. There's no sign of

314
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Speaker 2: any accidents are in the neighbors, so there's nothing going

315
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Speaker 2: on like that. Leo made some phone calls to the

316
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Speaker 2: hospitals just to see if there had been any kind

317
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,480
Speaker 2: of accident and no sign of her, and the sheriff's

318
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Speaker 2: office just takes all the information but basically says, there's

319
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Speaker 2: not much we can do. We'll put out a bolo,

320
00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,400
Speaker 2: you know, be on the lookout for but you know,

321
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Speaker 2: there's not much we can do. But if we do

322
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 2: see her, the books we can do is really tell

323
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Speaker 2: her we're looking for. So that's not enough for Leo.

324
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Speaker 2: The Leo wants action. He's really worried. After he hangs

325
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Speaker 2: up the phone, he goes out with his father and

326
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Speaker 2: they start looking around again.

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Speaker 1: How many people are in Lakeland? Tell me how big

328
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Speaker 1: of a place this is? Again?

329
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Speaker 2: Well, I mean the population today I think is over

330
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Speaker 2: one hundred thousand. Yeah, but you know, a little bit

331
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Speaker 2: smaller back then. There is a city of Lakeland, and

332
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Speaker 2: that's sort of where they are. But Lakeland is a

333
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Speaker 2: polk county is right in the middle of Florida, and

334
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Speaker 2: it's huge. It's bigger than the state of Rhode Island.

335
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Speaker 2: And most of it is just rural, you know, farmland

336
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Speaker 2: and stuff like that. But they're in the city of Lakeland.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Now, will you tell me what is possible of

338
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Speaker 1: these things in nineteen eighty seven, because I'm just not sure.

339
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Speaker 1: That's way too modern of a time for me. Does

340
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:08,280
Speaker 1: Sparkys or anybody near Sparkys like Tom's, do they have

341
00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 1: any kind of exterior security cameras or anything.

342
00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:15,160
Speaker 2: No, there's no cameras back then at all. There's just

343
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,000
Speaker 2: really nothing back then. No cell phones, no mounted cameras,

344
00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,760
Speaker 2: you know, on the street lights or outside stores, so

345
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 2: there's nothing to check on that. I think it's a

346
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Speaker 2: lot of why a lot of my friends who are

347
00:16:24,320 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 2: mystery writers set their stuff in the eighties, because you

348
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 2: don't have the chips that tell you where you were doing.

349
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Speaker 2: It was an easier time to have a crime because

350
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Speaker 2: they're just tougher to document. And so you know, I

351
00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:40,760
Speaker 2: ended up talking to the sheriff of Paulk County, Grady Judd,

352
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Speaker 2: who you'd probably seen. He goes viral a lot. He's

353
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Speaker 2: like a tough talk in Lauren Ordered, Florida sheriff, and

354
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Speaker 2: we interviewed him and I said, look, I need you

355
00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:50,520
Speaker 2: to put your historians hat on, because you were in

356
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Speaker 2: the sheriff department in the eighties yourself as a young deputy.

357
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Speaker 2: And he said, you know, it was just impossible to

358
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Speaker 2: solve crimes unless somebody spoke up. Back then, you just

359
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 2: didn't have cameras, you didn't have cell phone data, you

360
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,879
Speaker 2: didn't have any of that stuff. Unless somebody saw something,

361
00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,600
Speaker 2: you know, a lot of cases would go unsolved. And

362
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:10,440
Speaker 2: at this particular time in Lakeland, they had a white

363
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Speaker 2: supremacist sheriff who was forced out of office by the governor,

364
00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,440
Speaker 2: and a lot of detectives and deputies kind of quit.

365
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 2: This was right at the time of you know, Michelle disappearing,

366
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Speaker 2: right and so it was they were in a lot

367
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Speaker 2: of turmoil there.

368
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Speaker 1: They did.

369
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Speaker 2: They didn't have a lot of manpower, and so they're

370
00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:28,680
Speaker 2: kind of short shifted, and so that was played into

371
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Speaker 2: it too. They just they were getting a lot of

372
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Speaker 2: unsolved murders right around the time because they just couldn't

373
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Speaker 2: keep up with them.

374
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Speaker 1: I had just talked to a detective in a different city.

375
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Speaker 1: I'm in Texas, and he said, you know, when somebody

376
00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:43,679
Speaker 1: goes missing, you really should tell the police immediately. Everyone

377
00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,640
Speaker 1: thinks you have to wait twenty four hours or forty

378
00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 1: eight hours, but especially if it's somebody at risk and

379
00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,880
Speaker 1: outside the norm, you really should talk to them sooner.

380
00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:54,679
Speaker 1: What about Michelle when do they start thinking this is

381
00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,240
Speaker 1: this is more than just a wife who wandered off somewhere.

382
00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 2: I would say immediately. I mean when she doesn't show up,

383
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,480
Speaker 2: Leo has like a couple of calls to the sheriff's office.

384
00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,960
Speaker 2: He's checking in and they're like, mister Schofield, we told

385
00:18:06,960 --> 00:18:09,679
Speaker 2: you there's nothing we can do unless we run into her,

386
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 2: you know. But he's really frustrated. He wants a search,

387
00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 2: and they're saying, we don't do searches, like we're not

388
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 2: there yet, and so it's basically putting together friends and

389
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 2: family retracing the roads like the you know, Leo's out

390
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,680
Speaker 2: all night that night with his father and his mother,

391
00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 2: driving around. They show up at like Michelle's father's house

392
00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:31,160
Speaker 2: at two twenty in the morning, knocking on the door.

393
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,720
Speaker 2: You know, we can't find Michelle. We can't find Michelle.

394
00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 2: Mielle's father comes out to the search. He's driving around town.

395
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 2: He sees two deputies cars parked at a gas station.

396
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:43,280
Speaker 2: He runs over there and says, I'm looking for my wife.

397
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,000
Speaker 2: You know, did you see have you heard anything? And

398
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:47,240
Speaker 2: they're like, we don't have any report of any missing person.

399
00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,960
Speaker 2: He's getting really frustrated, like called this in a couple

400
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,960
Speaker 2: of times. Nobody's doing anything, and you know, they're basically saying,

401
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,360
Speaker 2: there's nothing we can do, and so it's really frustrating.

402
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:58,240
Speaker 2: It's a search by friends and family. So the next

403
00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:00,600
Speaker 2: morning they kind of put together search to they're all

404
00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,000
Speaker 2: out looking. They put together flyers, they're distributing them all

405
00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: over town. They're doing like everything you could imagine that

406
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,520
Speaker 2: can be done. And Leo's like not sleeping. He's frantic,

407
00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,720
Speaker 2: you know, he's looking everywhere, calling friends, trying to see

408
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 2: where Michelle could be.

409
00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,560
Speaker 1: What do the people at Tom's, at that restaurant she

410
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,879
Speaker 1: worked out? What did they say her night was like?

411
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:24,680
Speaker 1: They said it was basically like any other night. She

412
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,080
Speaker 1: was originally going to work till five. They extended her

413
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:30,439
Speaker 1: shift to eight because it was kind of busy. You know,

414
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 1: they all saw her leave, They.

415
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,000
Speaker 2: Saw her go across the street to Sparky's, and even

416
00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:37,520
Speaker 2: the clerk at Sparkys was in her. She remembered that

417
00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,760
Speaker 2: she remembered Michelle coming in after work and buying the

418
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 2: coke and the gas when they asked her later, So

419
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,360
Speaker 2: there's no doubt about that. And then she she only

420
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:47,919
Speaker 2: lived a couple miles away, so she went back to

421
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,240
Speaker 2: the house, fed the dogs and all that. So the

422
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:54,040
Speaker 2: people at Tom's didn't really have anything to add, nothing suspicious.

423
00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: Did anybody look at Leo sooner rather than later? Maybe

424
00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,040
Speaker 1: her family, even though I know they were not as

425
00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,640
Speaker 1: involved as Leo's family.

426
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 2: Is, surprisingly not right away, because Leo was the one

427
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 2: who was like sort of the impetus behind the searching.

428
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,479
Speaker 2: He was the one pushing everybody and so, and you know,

429
00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,480
Speaker 2: he was constantly calling the police, like constantly checking in

430
00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,680
Speaker 2: with them. His behavior didn't really rattle anyone. In fact,

431
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:20,000
Speaker 2: they kind of said to him HERU like, calm down,

432
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,040
Speaker 2: She's gonna be all right. She runs off sometimes she's

433
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 2: done this before, you know that. But Leo was really

434
00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 2: particularly worried about this time for some reason, because she

435
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 2: called and said she'd be right over. This didn't seem

436
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 2: like one of those things where she was off with friends.

437
00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,359
Speaker 2: And to be frank, they could not find any reports

438
00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,280
Speaker 2: or any evidence that she was out of friend nobody.

439
00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 2: None of her friends had seen her, and that's what

440
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,440
Speaker 2: they thought was really strange, Like she disappeared, but there

441
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 2: was no accounts of like, yeah, I'm having a fight

442
00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 2: with Leo. I just had to get away, like she's

443
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:52,920
Speaker 2: nowhere to be seen, like no one could find her,

444
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:54,520
Speaker 2: and that all her friends are now searching.

445
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,240
Speaker 1: How many days does this go on before something changes?

446
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 2: It extends into a second day, So she goes missing,

447
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,160
Speaker 2: twenty four hours goes by, nothing goes into the second day.

448
00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,200
Speaker 2: One of Leo's former bandmates, it was a guy named

449
00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 2: Chris Peck and he worked in Orlando and he was

450
00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,440
Speaker 2: driving home from work and he saw what he thought

451
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 2: was Michelle's Mazda station Wagon broken down on the side

452
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 2: of the road, or at least park there, and he

453
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 2: was tempted to stop and write a haha note because

454
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 2: Leo's car would constantly break down and he wanted to

455
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 2: just leave a note on the lunshield like ha ha,

456
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,159
Speaker 2: you broke down again, something like that, And so he

457
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 2: was thinking about that, but it was on the other

458
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:40,680
Speaker 2: side of the highway and he was trying to get home.

459
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,440
Speaker 2: But he gets down to Lakeland and coincidentally pulls into

460
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,520
Speaker 2: that same Sparky's and sees a flyer with Michelle's picture

461
00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:51,800
Speaker 2: on it saying missing, Help find me. And at that

462
00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: point he's like, oh no, and so His first thought

463
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,000
Speaker 2: is he sees the detective's number for the Polk County

464
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: Sheriff's office, and he calls there and tells them that

465
00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: he just saw the car that Michelle was driving. But

466
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 2: they're like, not really searching. It doesn't really register, and

467
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,240
Speaker 2: so the next thing he does is called Leo and

468
00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 2: tries to get a message to him, you know, like

469
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: I just saw your car on the side of I four,

470
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 2: And he gets it over to Leo's parents and finally

471
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 2: they get back to him later that night and he

472
00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 2: tells him I saw the Masta on the side of

473
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,439
Speaker 2: I four at this exit. And so Leo, his father,

474
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 2: a couple of friends they rush out to the scene

475
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 2: and there's the Mazda. It's broken down about seven miles

476
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 2: outside of Lakeland on the way towards Orlando, and it's

477
00:22:36,040 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 2: just sitting there and they look at it. They already

478
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: know like, don't touch it. They're smart enough about that.

479
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,200
Speaker 2: So there's a gas station up on a hill right

480
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: near the exit. Leo walks up the hill and calls

481
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,600
Speaker 2: the Polk County Sheriff's office and says, you know, I

482
00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:52,600
Speaker 2: found the car. My wife is not here. She's nowhere

483
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 2: to be found. You've got to send somebody out here.

484
00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 2: And you know, the cops are like, well, are you

485
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: going to drive the car home then? And he's like,

486
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 2: you don't understand she's missing. We just found her car.

487
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 2: It takes a while for it to sink in and finally,

488
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 2: you know, detectives finally show up and they think what

489
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 2: they see what might be blood in the back seat,

490
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 2: like in the back hatchback, and so they're still careful

491
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: not to touch anything, but they point that out, you know,

492
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 2: to the detectives. At this point, now it's going to

493
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:21,840
Speaker 2: be a full blown search. The police are going to

494
00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 2: get involved, but they sort of say, you know, wait

495
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 2: till morning. Okay, it's past midnight. Now we're going to

496
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 2: do a helicopter search of the area in the morning.

497
00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 2: Go home and rest and come back at the break

498
00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: of dawn and then start searching. And so that's exactly

499
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 2: what happens. The helicopter goes out in the morning, starts

500
00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: searching the area. Leo, his father, the friends, they all

501
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 2: kind of split up. But now because they know where

502
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 2: the car was, it's very easy to trace that back.

503
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: They're going to trace it back to Tom's restaurant. The

504
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 2: last place she was seeing seven miles away, so that's

505
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,119
Speaker 2: what they do. They sort of split up along I

506
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 2: four early in the morning, and they're working both sides,

507
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 2: looking in ditches, looking in the meat, in no sign

508
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 2: of anything. They finally get back to the road where

509
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: Tom's is and they're there and they split up again,

510
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: and this is the point where Leo is searching with

511
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 2: his Michelle's best friend. Her name is Michelle McCluskey, and

512
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: they see a cop car speedby with the lights on,

513
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,080
Speaker 2: siren blaring, so Leo thinks, okay, that's it, and then

514
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,680
Speaker 2: they see a second one and then Leo's like, all right,

515
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 2: we got to go follow that car, and so they

516
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: jump in the car Leo's with Michelle's best friend, and

517
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 2: they're speeding toward it, and they see a truck kind

518
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: of jackknifed on the road and Leo's like, oh, they're

519
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,160
Speaker 2: speeding to an accident. They get a little bit closer

520
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 2: and he sees his father's car on the side of

521
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 2: the road in the same spot. Leo jumps out of

522
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 2: the truck, still moving, and he sees his father coming

523
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 2: out of the woods with his hands over his face,

524
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:51,439
Speaker 2: and he knows at this point something happened and he

525
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 2: rushes over to his father. His father just grabs him

526
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 2: and says she's gone, she's gone, and Leo's kind of

527
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 2: freaks out. He's like, they tell her she's a water

528
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 2: and Leo's like, get her out, get her out? How

529
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,359
Speaker 2: do you know she? Like, he's just freaking out. The detectives,

530
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:07,919
Speaker 2: the police kind of hold him back. They won't let

531
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: him go over there, and so he's kind of freaking out.

532
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 2: There's a very famous picture of Leo, like he tears

533
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 2: his shirt off and he's just pacing up and down

534
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: the street, and that's kind of like the image we

535
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 2: use on the Bone Valley themes. Like Leo is just

536
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: totally distraught. He knows his wife is back there, they

537
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 2: won't let him go see, and he's just unprepared for this.

538
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: How did his father find her? How did that even happen?

539
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 1: If they're kind of in a wooded area, that becomes

540
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: a big part of the case.

541
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,040
Speaker 2: You know, they find Michelle, and then after Michelle has found,

542
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: Leo's father found her, and so what does he start saying?

543
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: He said, God let me to the body. It was God,

544
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 2: help me find her. They kind of spun it into

545
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: like Leo's father woke up in the middle of the night,

546
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 2: had a premonition at the body, and went right to

547
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: the site, and that's how it got spun locally. But

548
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 2: you know what happened was it was a logical, methodical

549
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:01,399
Speaker 2: search backwards from the car towards Sparky gas station. And

550
00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:03,560
Speaker 2: this was on the way. And if you look at

551
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: the aerial shots that the helicopter did, like, if you're

552
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 2: going that way, that's a place you're going to go into.

553
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,760
Speaker 2: It has a driveway into it, there's lots of beer

554
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 2: bottles and garbage. It's a place where kids hung out.

555
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,639
Speaker 2: And so Leo's father is working backwards from ifour This

556
00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 2: is the first cut that leads back to this dark area,

557
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,560
Speaker 2: and he starts looking around back there and he sees

558
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: a jacket right near the water, there's an old phosphate pit.

559
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: He sees a jacket laying there kind of looks like

560
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 2: could be Michelle's jacket, and so he walks to the

561
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 2: jacket and that's when he sees Michelle floating face down

562
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: in the water, and she's got like a piece of

563
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 2: plywood over most of her body and she's just laying there,

564
00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 2: and that's when he freaks out. He runs out into

565
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 2: the truck he fled, you know, waves down a truck

566
00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 2: and says, y's your radio. Call the police, and he says,

567
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,680
Speaker 2: my daughter in law is back there.

568
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: So was the theory until we see this plywood and

569
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: find out a little bit more about this. Was the

570
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 1: theory that she wrecked her car, then went back to

571
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: Sparkeys to get help, and then something happened to her

572
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: in between the car, the seven miles of the car,

573
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 1: and then Sparky's is that what it would be?

574
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: You know, they never really get to that theory because

575
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: they can't explain why the car is like seven miles away.

576
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 2: They don't have any explanation for that broken down on

577
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:20,880
Speaker 2: the side of the road. They really start looking about

578
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: canvassing the neighborhood. And as they start canvassing the neighborhood

579
00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,840
Speaker 2: of the trailer where Leo and Michelle lived, some of

580
00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 2: the neighbors are saying that, oh, they used to fight

581
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 2: over there all the time, and so now they're like,

582
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 2: h well, it's the husband. And then there's a witness

583
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 2: across the street from the Schofields trailer. Her name is

584
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: Alice Scott. And Alice Scott is kind of the busybody neighbor.

585
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,399
Speaker 2: In fact, the prosecution calls her that, and she basically

586
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 2: says that she saw Leo carrying something out heavy into

587
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 2: the back of the Mazda the night she disappeared, and

588
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 2: so this becomes the biggest break for the police. They're thinking,

589
00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 2: if that's true, the trailer must be the crime scene.

590
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 2: So because Alice says she saw Leo come out of

591
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 2: there after a fight, carrying something heavy and putting in

592
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 2: the back of the car and driving away, they start

593
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,720
Speaker 2: using that as the theory of how the crime took place.

594
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 2: All based on Alice Scott's testimony and statements.

595
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about what investigators see

596
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: when they go back there and they see her floating

597
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: with you said a piece of plywood above her, and

598
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: you said, is this a pond or what kind of

599
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 1: body of water is this?

600
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 2: It's an abandoned phosphate pit. So there used to be

601
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 2: a phosphate mine that was there, and they filled it

602
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,360
Speaker 2: with water and it just left it. It's basically reclaimed

603
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: land at this point, but it's filled with water. It

604
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: more or less looks like a lake. But it runs

605
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: parallel to this road, so it seems more like a canal,

606
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:44,840
Speaker 2: but the way they call it back then was called

607
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: a drainage pit. And so they find Michelle fully clothed

608
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 2: everything but her shoes, and she's laying in this water.

609
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 2: And when they pull the ply would offer and bring

610
00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: her out of the water, they quickly find out that

611
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 2: she's been stabbed numerous times. Later on the corner would

612
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: say twenty six times. She'd been stabbed in the front

613
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: and back and parts of her neck. So it was

614
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 2: a brutal, brutal killing. And so they examined the crime

615
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: scene basically that area, and they find like a large

616
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 2: clump of blood and it matches Michelle's blood. So it's

617
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: right in the sand, in the dirt, right in that

618
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,800
Speaker 2: area of cut right back in that woods back there

619
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 2: near the near the water, and so you know, they

620
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 2: find that there, and they find the body, but they

621
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 2: don't really put it together, like they look at it

622
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: sort of, well, if Leo was seen carrying something heavy,

623
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: she must have been killed back there, and this was

624
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 2: probably the dumping site, and that's kind of what they

625
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: settled on. They settle on the trailer as being the

626
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 2: crime scene. The big problem with this is they cannot

627
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: find one drop or speck of blood in the trailer

628
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 2: for someone who have stabbed someone twenty six times inside

629
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: that trailer then carry her out. Is pretty clear that

630
00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 2: there's going to be some form of blood, like it's

631
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 2: just impossible to clean up that kind of mess. But

632
00:30:04,800 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: they don't find any blood, and so that's kind of

633
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: a problem for the state. And the other problem is

634
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: that Alice Scott is kind of a suspect witness's you know,

635
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 2: she's been institutionalized in mental institutes for delusions. Her husband

636
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:20,840
Speaker 2: is saying begging the police not to talk to her

637
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: because she tends to get overly involved in these kind

638
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 2: of things and they doesn't want her to do it.

639
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 2: He doesn't want her doing this, but she doesn't. She

640
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: starts talking to police and her descriptions become more clear

641
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 2: and more violent, and she's the only witness who had

642
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: heard anything that night. It takes about sixteen months for

643
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: the state to arrest Leo Schofield because they're just they're

644
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: not really confident they have a strong case here. There's

645
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: no physical evidence connecting Leo. There's a lot of alibi

646
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 2: witness because he's with friends most of the time, so

647
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 2: they're trying to narrow down that period from when it

648
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: would have happened, and Alice Scott says, I looked at

649
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 2: a clock. I saw this. It was between two thirty

650
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 2: and three am. Well, Leo's accounted for, he's with police

651
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: and he's with Michelle's father at that hour, So like

652
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 2: kind of worried about this. But they have a really

653
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 2: good prosecutor named John Aguero, who's an expert at putting

654
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 2: together circumstantial cases, and when he starts to talk to

655
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: Alice Scott himself, he finds that the timeline is starting

656
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,920
Speaker 2: to come together under his questioning.

657
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: In my other show Buried Bones with Paul Paul Hols,

658
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:35,080
Speaker 1: I learned something this was several years ago. When they

659
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: find a victim and it's a woman and she is

660
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: fully clothed, I assume, as I think a lot of

661
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: people do, that there was no sexual assault, until Paul says,

662
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 1: sometimes the offender redresses them. So did they find any

663
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: signs of sexual assault or anything like that on Michelle.

664
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: No, they said that she was not sexually assaulted. There

665
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,080
Speaker 2: was no evidence of that. That's really interesting. I'd never

666
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 2: heard that before.

667
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hadn't either.

668
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, particular case, there was nothing like that, which led

669
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: them more towards Leo, because like, why would Leo have

670
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 2: sexually assault you know, it's not that kind of This

671
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 2: was a rage crime. That's what they're arguing. Shoot, Leo

672
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,080
Speaker 2: was so mad that Michelle was late that for some

673
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: reason he decided to stab her twenty six times. That's

674
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 2: that's pretty much how the case came together. Miraculously, Alice

675
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 2: Scott led them to two more neighbors who after a

676
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: year and a half, suddenly remembered that they saw Leo's

677
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 2: father's car or the Mazda at that pit area that night,

678
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 2: even though they talked to police twice and that never

679
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,280
Speaker 2: came up. There was a lot of things that never

680
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 2: came up in the initial statements that fifteen months later,

681
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: they came up in John Aguero's office when he was

682
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,280
Speaker 2: questioning him. That was a key to the case.

683
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 1: You said, twenty seven stab wounds. Were there signs of

684
00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: defensive wounds or were they located in one particular place.

685
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: No, there was a couple of bruises on her, but

686
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 2: they didn't really notice any signs of defensive wounds or

687
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 2: anything like that. They did notice, and they preserved it

688
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: for a while, some fingernail scrapings that they believe, but

689
00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:02,840
Speaker 2: you know, they didn't just DNA backed. They preserved it,

690
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: but later the prosecutor destroyed it back in the nineties,

691
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 2: got rid of all of it. But so that's all

692
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: they really have is they have an eyewitness and a

693
00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: very circumstantial case. There's nothing physical connecting Leo to the crime.

694
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: The one thing that kind of jumps out of the

695
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: state but doesn't seem to jump out to Leo's defense attorney,

696
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 2: is that they find fingerprints in the car that have

697
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 2: been unidentified. They don't belong to Leo, they don't belong

698
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 2: to Michelle, they don't belong to Leo's father. They just

699
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: become unidentified and they sit in the file for many,

700
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 2: many years as unidentified fingerprints. But because Leo's defense attorney

701
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 2: did no pre trial investigation and he did no depositions

702
00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 2: of witnesses, he was known as a trial by ambush attorney.

703
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: Like he just didn't like to be prepared. He liked

704
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: to be spontaneous and I'll just take care of those

705
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: witnesses on the cross examination, and that's how I win

706
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,480
Speaker 2: my cases. And he was very charming, southern, kind of

707
00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:01,760
Speaker 2: looked like Colonel Sanders, but he was really ill prepared

708
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 2: for this kind of case when it gets a little

709
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: more scientific.

710
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: Hmm, Well, I'm going to channel poll Holes one more time.

711
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: Because the fingerprints inside the car, he would say, if

712
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: he were here, he would say, well, where are those fingerprints?

713
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,800
Speaker 1: You know, if it's a random like a gas station

714
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,399
Speaker 1: attendant who's doing something, and it makes sense maybe it's

715
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 1: on the inside of a window or something like that,

716
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: that's one thing. But if it's a place where a

717
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: stranger really probably shouldn't be, like the trunk of the

718
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,279
Speaker 1: car or you know, some other area, that might make

719
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,360
Speaker 1: a difference. Do we have any idea where those random

720
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: prints were?

721
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely. And what's curious about it is that they

722
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 2: don't find any of Michelle or Leo's prints in the

723
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: car at all.

724
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 1: Okay, so somebody wiped it down, right, Yeah.

725
00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:44,879
Speaker 2: That's what they're thinking, right, somebody must have wiped it down.

726
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: But they find two fingerprints, ones on the inside driver's

727
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 2: door and inside the car, and the other one is

728
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: in the back, the back of the hatchback, and there's

729
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 2: a television rental receipt and the television rental receipt was

730
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: touched and fingerprints, but they didn't match anyone Leo or anyone.

731
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,919
Speaker 2: So that's where they find these prints that are unidentified.

732
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 2: But also the stereo was tampered with, so the speakers

733
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 2: in the back were missing, as well as the equalizer

734
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 2: underneath the car stereo. The equalizer was taken out for

735
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: whatever reason, they tried getting the stereo up, couldn't get

736
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: it out, so they took the equalizer and the speakers

737
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: in the back. So that does kind of explain why

738
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: there might be, you know, fingerprints in the back of

739
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,280
Speaker 2: the hatchback, unidentified fingerprints.

740
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: So if we are not thinking Leo is a suspect

741
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: and we're thinking something else, would this be She breaks down,

742
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: someone comes up to her, wants to steal her stuff,

743
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 1: she puts up a fight, he stabs her and tosses

744
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,200
Speaker 1: her in this phosphate pit. And that's kind of the

745
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: way this goes because now you have I didn't realize

746
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: there was stuff missing, So now there is a motive

747
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 1: for a stranger right.

748
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 2: Right, And you know, nobody can explain why the car

749
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: is seven miles away like broken down, like it doesn't

750
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 2: really fit any theories of anything.

751
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: You know, is it in the right direction though, Gilbert, like,

752
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:02,359
Speaker 1: is it going where it's supposed to be going before

753
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: it breaks down toward the friend's house.

754
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: No, it's going to totally opposite direction, and it's far

755
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: far away, like in an opposite direction, and like the

756
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: state isn't going to end up saying that Leo and

757
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: his father and his mother were in on this conspiracy.

758
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: One of them killed Michelle and they decided to all

759
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 2: act together and get rid of the body and get

760
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 2: rid of the car. And you know, that was what

761
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 2: the theory was, and so that really was about attacking

762
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: the alibi.

763
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:29,239
Speaker 1: Do we have any information about the blood that what

764
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: they thought was blood in the back seat? Did it

765
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: turn out to be blood and Michelle's blood? There was

766
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: Michelle's blood was found on the downy fabric soft in

767
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: her bottle, a little smear of it. It's just a

768
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: little bit, but enough to get a sample and to

769
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: show that it was Michelle's blood. There was also a

770
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,960
Speaker 1: little bit of blood on the back rug in the hatchback,

771
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: but only a little bit, but they couldn't identify.

772
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 2: It as Michelle's There wasn't enough of it there. But

773
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: they said it was definitely human blood and that's the

774
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:57,359
Speaker 2: only blood that was found in the car in eighty seven.

775
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,359
Speaker 2: Were they doing blood typing? Is that what it would

776
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: have been? It was blood typing, aba oh and that

777
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: kind of thing, and they could tell it wasn't Leo's.

778
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,920
Speaker 2: They knew that it wasn't Leo's. It was definitely Michelle's

779
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 2: based on the blood typing.

780
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: So Leo's suspicious. They look at the alibi and what

781
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: are they saying about his alibi? And I think all

782
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: these people are lying on his behalf or that he

783
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: slipped out and slipped back in and it was no

784
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:18,600
Speaker 1: big deal.

785
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: There's one period where Leo goes out with his father

786
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: for about an hour and he's driving around town. It's

787
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: like right after the right after the Leo calls the

788
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 2: sheriff reporting Michelle missing. They go back out and do

789
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: the same kind of thing, and then they go back

790
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:35,760
Speaker 2: to Leo's parents trailer because Leo's father is not feeling well.

791
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:37,879
Speaker 2: I mean, he's got a cast on his leg. He's

792
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: just not really up for this, and so he goes

793
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 2: to bed and the mom goes out with Leo, and

794
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 2: that's when they go over to Michelle's father's house. They

795
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: start tracing them as they're out to like three something

796
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: in the morning doing this. Finally they go back home,

797
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: drops off his mom, and Leo's like, I'm going to

798
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 2: my friend Buddy's house. I got to get his car.

799
00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: We're going to go out searching him freaked out. So

800
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 2: the state's theory is that somehow, and they can't and

801
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:03,399
Speaker 2: say how this happens, somehow Leo must have run into

802
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 2: Michelle while they're out searching, and then he says goodbye

803
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,840
Speaker 2: to his father. He gets in the Mazda with Michelle

804
00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: and they go back to the trailer, getting a huge fight.

805
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: Leo stabs are there, carries her out. That's the theory

806
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 2: they go on. You know, the timeline doesn't really work

807
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,080
Speaker 2: because there's some other witnesses that show up in the

808
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 2: police reports verifying that Leo was calling there and exactly

809
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: the time he said he was, and he couldn't have

810
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 2: been doing it from the trailer. So there's a two

811
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 2: am call that Leo made to Michelle's grandmother that was

812
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,120
Speaker 2: confirmed by both you know, the state acknowledged it. It's

813
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 2: in the police reports, but Leo's lawyer doesn't see it.

814
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: And so the state doesn't bring it up.

815
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 1: So now we I think understand the way this trial

816
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: is going to go. He's getting real road in, right.

817
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: It seems pretty clear there are all these witnesses that

818
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,880
Speaker 1: can give him an alibi. His dad luckily finds Michelle

819
00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 1: to be able to recover her body and everything. But

820
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 1: now everything is turning on this guy's character. And he's

821
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: a young husband who's been her fighting, and you know,

822
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,120
Speaker 1: all of this stuff. And of course, you know, you

823
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,280
Speaker 1: can't ignore that he's from a very lower income area.

824
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: And you know, we're not talking about middle class, upper

825
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: class citizens in this in Lakeland. We're talking about very

826
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: low socioeconomic area where they're obviously not going to be

827
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,680
Speaker 1: a priority. And it seems very clear that this kid

828
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: is violent and acts violence and he's the one who

829
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: did it. Open and shut.

830
00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. Horror thing is when you look into

831
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 2: this case, Lakeland, this area had an unbelievable public defender's office.

832
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: They were really good, really great trial and they had

833
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 2: extraordinary records of getting acquittals in death penalty cases like acquittals.

834
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,279
Speaker 2: I mean, they were really good. And Leo starts out

835
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 2: with the public Defender's office but when they lock them

836
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: up and throw them in jail, he's talking to these

837
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 2: other inmates, and that's a public pretender. Your life's on

838
00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 2: the line. You can't do that, you know. You got

839
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 2: to get somebody good, you know. And it's a death

840
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 2: penalty case. And because Leo had gotten in an accident

841
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,120
Speaker 2: the summer before he broke his neck, he's a passenger

842
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: in a car, he had a fifty dollar settlement coming

843
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: his way. And so this hotshot lawyer named Jack Edmund said,

844
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 2: that's exactly my fee, and sign this paper and you know,

845
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,799
Speaker 2: and that's what happens. So that's how Leo ends up,

846
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 2: not with the Public Defender's Office, which he says was

847
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 2: the biggest mistake of his life. He ended up with

848
00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 2: a lawyer who was completely unprepared and just got steamrolled

849
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:20,960
Speaker 2: by the prosecutor.

850
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: Is this a capital case in Florida? Must be in

851
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 1: eighty seven.

852
00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 2: Yes, this county went for the death penalty as much

853
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 2: as you could.

854
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 1: So the trial goes on, it sounds like already you're

855
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,920
Speaker 1: teasing that that Jack Edmunds, his defense attorney, is dropping

856
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: the ball, and ultimately I'm assuming we end up. Is

857
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:40,240
Speaker 1: this a bench trial or is this a jury.

858
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 2: It's a jury.

859
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: No one tell me about the verdict.

860
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just tell you the biggest. Well, he made

861
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 2: a lot of mistakes, but the first mistake he did

862
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 2: was he allowed the state to open its case with

863
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 2: twenty one bad character witnesses in a row. And most

864
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:54,280
Speaker 2: of them just got up there and said, he's volatile,

865
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 2: he fights all the time, he does this, he punches walls,

866
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,840
Speaker 2: he's like screaming all the time. Just shit, that was

867
00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 2: really prejudicial. There were some witnesses that came in and

868
00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 2: talked about like his relationship with Michelle, that probably would

869
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,760
Speaker 2: have been, you know, admissible, But because Jack Edmond didn't

870
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:10,880
Speaker 2: object to anything, he didn't preserve the record so that

871
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 2: stuff could no longer be challenged. And I think, you know,

872
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 2: I've let some judges, some prosecutors read the trial transcript

873
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: and they all said the same thing, like this trial

874
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: was over before this defense even got their case off

875
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: the webings. This was just the way you start, Like,

876
00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: you couldn't imagine that the judge didn't even step in

877
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,439
Speaker 2: and say this has got to stop. It's twenty one

878
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: straight bad character witnesses, you know, and it's all this

879
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: four or four evidence, this stuff that's like should not

880
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: be admissible in this to this extent. But because he

881
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: didn't know, and you know, he said, I'm not really

882
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 2: much of an evidence guy. I just know how to

883
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 2: win trials. It wasn't really the guy you want for

884
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: the law, and so he let it all in without objection.

885
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: So that kind of started off in a really bad

886
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 2: way because the testimony made Leo look like, you know,

887
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: a violent monster. The worst part of it, I think

888
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,560
Speaker 2: was that there was a next door neighbor to Alice

889
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: Scott who happened to be her sister in law. She

890
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: was much more credible. Her name was Linda Sells, and

891
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 2: basically what she ended up saying was like, yes, we

892
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: did see Leo carrying something heavy out and we joked

893
00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: around about it, me and Alice because you know, we said, oh,

894
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 2: I wonder what's going on in there, and they made

895
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 2: jokes about it. But she said that was a week

896
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 2: or two before Michelle disappeared. That was not that same night,

897
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 2: because I didn't work that night and I wasn't coming

898
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: home from work as Alice described and having that conversation

899
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: with her in the driveway, and you know, it was

900
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 2: later shown that she did not work that night. She

901
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 2: was inside. So whatever Alice claimed she saw, she probably

902
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: did see. But it was like a week or two

903
00:42:35,239 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 2: before Michelle went missing. And you know, I asked Leo

904
00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: about that. I said, you know, carrying something heavy? Was

905
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: it was alluded to being a body. In fact, she

906
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 2: does say at one point I saw him carrying the body,

907
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: and Leo said, look, you know I did carry something out.

908
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:51,560
Speaker 2: I was not that night because Michelle had the car,

909
00:42:51,719 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 2: but I did put an amplifier back there. And it's like,

910
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: she goes, I had a blanket over it. He said,

911
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 2: you know, you knew what it was not. It was

912
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 2: not a body. It was a box, you know, like

913
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:04,040
Speaker 2: that was what it was. And so Leo's like, you're

914
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,919
Speaker 2: lying by saying it's a body. But prosecutor was able

915
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: to get away with that, and frankly, like the defense

916
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 2: really dropped the ball in this one, because if you

917
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 2: look at Linda sells his testimony, it's very clear like

918
00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: Alice is saying, I'm not good with dates. She says

919
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,719
Speaker 2: that a bunch of times, and Linda is like, I

920
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: am good with dates. We saw that a week or

921
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,560
Speaker 2: two before. That was not the same night and so

922
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:27,120
Speaker 2: that was like the state's whole case. That was their

923
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: main witness against Leo. That made the crime scene the trailer,

924
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 2: and it was a different night and there's no blood

925
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 2: in the trailer. Still, Leo ended up getting convicted.

926
00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: To simplify what they think the motive was, It's that

927
00:43:41,000 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 1: Leo is a young, angry, volatile, sometimes violent asshole who's

928
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,640
Speaker 1: mad that his wife is not driving fast enough to

929
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: get to this party and maybe she's out doing something else.

930
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,400
Speaker 1: Is that pretty much it? And he snaps and tracks

931
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:55,440
Speaker 1: her down and does this.

932
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. I think I look back at it,

933
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: like you look at his behavior and then you co

934
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: parent to you know, we know of some of these

935
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 2: cases that we see today where the spouse claims that

936
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: wife went missing, we don't know where she is. Leo's

937
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 2: behavior is consistent for the three days, like he's the

938
00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,839
Speaker 2: one out there saying, we got to look, we gotta

939
00:44:12,880 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: do this. He's calling the police, consert he's putting himself

940
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:18,280
Speaker 2: in front of police. Think about this. Within fifteen minutes,

941
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: when the state says that Leo killed Michelle and carried

942
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: her out to the car, he shows up at Michelle's

943
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 2: father's house saying, I need your help to find Michelle,

944
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: Like fifteen minutes after he just butchered the daughter. Twenty

945
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 2: minutes after that, he's over in front of police, standing

946
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 2: in front of this saying I need help finding my wife.

947
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: You know, this is how much really cleaning could he

948
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 2: have done in that time, you know, like the one witnesses,

949
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: I'm pretty sure he's wearing the same exact thing for

950
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: those two days. He never changed, And so they took

951
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,800
Speaker 2: the clothes in and examined him and didn't find a

952
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 2: speca blood there either. And this isn't someone who's got

953
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,279
Speaker 2: like ninety pairs of shoes and jeans and stuff like that.

954
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: So and so there's just nothing physically connecting to him

955
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,319
Speaker 2: to the case. But he gets convicted. Fortunately for Leo,

956
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: he the jury spared his life. And you know, I

957
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:05,520
Speaker 2: ended up tracking down the juror because most of them

958
00:45:05,560 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: are like, you know, elderly Florida retired people. They're all dead.

959
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,439
Speaker 2: But this this one woman was twenty two at the time,

960
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 2: and we tracked her down and she says, yeah, I

961
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: didn't I didn't think he was guilty, but I just

962
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 2: went along with the others. Oh my gosh, I know,

963
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: and then, like she said, the quiet part out loud, right,

964
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 2: But then when it came time to the death sentence,

965
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:24,279
Speaker 2: she kind of held firm because they were ready to

966
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:27,120
Speaker 2: send him to his death. Yeah, and she said, you know,

967
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,399
Speaker 2: I think they just changed it because of me, because

968
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,680
Speaker 2: they didn't want to upset me anymore, and so they

969
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 2: decided to give him life. So like that that juror

970
00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:36,759
Speaker 2: might have saved Leo's life too. You know, it's just

971
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: a strange thing that we were able to track her

972
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: down and talk to her.

973
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: So tell me when things start to change, when people

974
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 1: other than you realize that this is not Leo, this

975
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 1: is actually somebody else.

976
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 2: Well, this is the crazy part of the story. So Leo,

977
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,279
Speaker 2: you know, settles off to prison. He's there a few years.

978
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 2: Some some like older veterans tell him, you, look, you

979
00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: got to get your education. You got to be useful.

980
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: You have to prove to the state that you are

981
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,960
Speaker 2: worthy to be released. That's what you need to be

982
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: working on. They just pounded his head. Follow the rules,

983
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: don't get involved with bad people, work on yourself, work

984
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 2: on your education. And that's what Leo does. He gets

985
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: his high school degree. Then he goes on gets college degrees,

986
00:46:16,520 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 2: multiple college degrees. But in the early days, he gets

987
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 2: assigned as a teacher's aid in the prison. And this

988
00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:24,799
Speaker 2: is in the early nineties, so he's like twenty five

989
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 2: years old, and this kind of six foot tall, blonde

990
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: social worker is who he's assigned to help. He's the

991
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: teacher's aid for her, and remarkably, they fall in love

992
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,960
Speaker 2: in the prison and they get married and they're still

993
00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 2: married today thirty years later. But Chrissy gets into conversations

994
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,480
Speaker 2: with Leo, and Leo's like, look, I just want to

995
00:46:46,520 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: tell you I'm here. I was convicted of murdering my wife.

996
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:51,879
Speaker 2: I want you to know that that's the hill I'm

997
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 2: going to die on it. I don't want to play

998
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: games with you. I am wrongfully convicted. And he's like,

999
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: I'm not going to try and talk you into anything.

1000
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 2: If you want, go to your own research look into

1001
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 2: my case. And she does. She's got a college degree,

1002
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: and she starts looking into the case over many, many months,

1003
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,479
Speaker 2: and she becomes convinced that Leo's innocent. And the one

1004
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 2: thing she settles on which obsesses her for years, is

1005
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 2: that these unidentified fingerprints are in that car, and she

1006
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 2: just wants to figure out who these prints belong to,

1007
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 2: and so that becomes her mission. This goes on for

1008
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 2: years and she's trying to get a hold of the Prince.

1009
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 2: What can she do that Leo's no longer represented by

1010
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 2: a lawyer. What can she do? She doesn't know. Flash

1011
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 2: forward to two thousand and four. Michelle's been dead for

1012
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 2: seventeen years now, Leo's still in prison. Chrissy finds a

1013
00:47:41,080 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 2: friend who is a detective at a sheriff's department and

1014
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: she's just begging her friend, Cinda, please just run these prints.

1015
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 2: My husband is in prison. Chrissy is just relentless, like

1016
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 2: a bulldog, and Sinda, just to get her to shut up,

1017
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: basically says, fine, give me the Prince. So takes the

1018
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:03,280
Speaker 2: fingerprint cards. By this point they have the APHIS system

1019
00:48:03,520 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 2: automatic fingerprint identification system. She runs the Prince through, thinking

1020
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,160
Speaker 2: this will be it. It's a tow truck driver, and

1021
00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:12,920
Speaker 2: which the story is going to be over. Your husband's

1022
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,319
Speaker 2: a murderer, That's what she's thinking. They run the Prince through.

1023
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:17,439
Speaker 2: A couple of days later, they get a hit and

1024
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:22,240
Speaker 2: it's a young man who lived in Lakeland, very close

1025
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 2: to where Leo and Michelle lived who's in prison for

1026
00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: a murder right now in the same area. And when

1027
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:32,200
Speaker 2: they look extensively into his criminal records, they find another

1028
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,360
Speaker 2: murder that he probably committed but he got acquitted of

1029
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 2: the year before, and he's extraordinarily violent. He's in and

1030
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 2: out of juvenile detention facilities, has an arrest record from

1031
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:46,440
Speaker 2: the age of ten up until he's finally incarcerated at

1032
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 2: the age of nineteen for another murder. So now they're

1033
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,000
Speaker 2: looking at this guy's like, this isn't a tow truck driver,

1034
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: This isn't a detective, It isn't any of those things.

1035
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 2: It's not you know, some stereo fief for something that

1036
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:02,239
Speaker 2: stumbles it. It's an actual murderer. Can we start an investigation?

1037
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 2: And that's where you see the state really double down,

1038
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,479
Speaker 2: like you would think that new evidence of a known

1039
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 2: killer whose fingerprints are found in his car the last

1040
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 2: place Michelle's been. It takes six years to get Leo

1041
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,960
Speaker 2: into a hearing to look at this new evidence. It's

1042
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: just like slow walking it. It just takes forever, and

1043
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,480
Speaker 2: you start to recognize that's what finality looks like. They

1044
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: do not want to revisit this and possibly lose this conviction.

1045
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 2: That's where the case really turns. The young man's name

1046
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:31,720
Speaker 2: is Jeremy Scott.

1047
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 1: Is he related to Alice Scott?

1048
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: No, And that's the first thing they look into and

1049
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 2: they find no relation there. But it's pretty troubling that

1050
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: they have this prince come back to him. So they

1051
00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: send a cold case detective up to the jail to

1052
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:50,280
Speaker 2: interview him, and basically he's in a defensive mode because

1053
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 2: his original crime sent him to death row and he

1054
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: got off because he was an abused child and had

1055
00:49:57,360 --> 00:49:59,840
Speaker 2: all these mitigating factors. So they gave him life and

1056
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,880
Speaker 2: they tell him, your fingerprints were found in this murdered victim,

1057
00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 2: and they show him pictures and he claims to not

1058
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:08,800
Speaker 2: know anything about it, and he says, was the stereo

1059
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 2: take it? And they're like, yes it was, and he says, yeah,

1060
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 2: I used to steal stereos. And so when they finally

1061
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 2: get into the hearing in twenty ten, John Aguero, the prosecutor,

1062
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 2: is also the prosecutor who sent Jeremy Scott to death row.

1063
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: So this same prosecutor prosecuted Leo and Jeremy. So now

1064
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: you have these two guys that are both connected to

1065
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: the death or to Michelle Scofield, which one of them

1066
00:50:30,520 --> 00:50:33,839
Speaker 2: did this? Right, That's what this defense is trying to argue.

1067
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 2: It's the guy that's really violent that did this. But

1068
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:39,440
Speaker 2: the state is saying, well, John Aguero talked to him

1069
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: in his office, no witnesses, no police, no tape recorder,

1070
00:50:44,040 --> 00:50:45,520
Speaker 2: and they come up with the story that he's a

1071
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:46,280
Speaker 2: stereo thief.

1072
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: He just found this car on the side of the

1073
00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: road and was like, I'm going to take this right now,

1074
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 1: where's that nobody's here. Yeah, that's what I would have

1075
00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:53,919
Speaker 1: said too, absolutely.

1076
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, just Jeremy's bad luck that he happened to break

1077
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 2: into a car of a girl who'd been murdered an

1078
00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,359
Speaker 2: hour earlier. Right, But that's what they're going with. And

1079
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 2: they go into this evidence you are hearing, and a

1080
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: Polk County judge rules that, yes, that makes more sense

1081
00:51:06,120 --> 00:51:10,440
Speaker 2: that he's a car stereo thief, forget his background. You know.

1082
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,440
Speaker 2: One of the things that comes up in this is

1083
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,239
Speaker 2: that they interview Jeremy's girlfriend, Jamie, and Jamie says, oh,

1084
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,160
Speaker 2: that place the cut where Michelle's body was found, that's

1085
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 2: where he used to take me to have sex. That's

1086
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:23,600
Speaker 2: where we used to hang out, So what are the

1087
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 2: odds that this guy's fingerprints is found in the same

1088
00:51:26,520 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 2: place that Jeremy used to hang out take his girlfriends to.

1089
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 2: There's this part of the story that just sort of

1090
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 2: gets ignored and they just say no. I think they

1091
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 2: called it extremely serendipitous that his fingerprints were found in

1092
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:40,400
Speaker 2: the car of a murdered victim. But he was a

1093
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 2: stereo thief, so that's what they're going with.

1094
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: It sounds like they can't get over the fact that

1095
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 1: they don't think she's been sexually assaulted. We know that

1096
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 1: somebody can be sexually assaulted without seeing these outward damages

1097
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: or penetration or anything like that. But for what they're saying,

1098
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,680
Speaker 1: it's well, I mean, what's his motive He got the stereo, right,

1099
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 1: what would be the motive of dabbing this woman twenty

1100
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 1: seven times? He didn't rape her? Is that the impression

1101
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: you get or is it something different? Yeah?

1102
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:07,439
Speaker 2: In fact, they use it in a real strange way.

1103
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,439
Speaker 2: They're like, you know, she's an attractive gal, like any

1104
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,320
Speaker 2: stranger would have raped her, but like if that's a husband,

1105
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 2: he's not gonna you know, Like that's why it's just

1106
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: a stabbing, and that's the argument they put forward. You know,

1107
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 2: it doesn't really make a lot of sense, but that's

1108
00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 2: what they're still trying so hard to say. This is

1109
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 2: not a stranger, this is not some psychotic this is

1110
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,399
Speaker 2: a passion killing. That's when you see stabbings a bunch

1111
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 2: of times, like it's a husband and wife a fight.

1112
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 2: Like that's what they go with. And you know, the defense,

1113
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 2: to their credit, Jack Edmund blindly says, you know, like,

1114
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 2: I think what we have out there is a ravenous

1115
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 2: maniac who stabbed Michelle and enjoy a robbery. And but

1116
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:43,919
Speaker 2: you know, he didn't even look to see the fingerprints.

1117
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,160
Speaker 2: He could have argued that. Another strange thing is that

1118
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 2: one of the investigators in the Michelle Schofield murder was

1119
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,800
Speaker 2: the lead investigator for the for the murder that Jeremy

1120
00:52:53,800 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 2: got acquitted of, and he was absolutely convinced that they

1121
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 2: had the right guy. But the Public Defender's office was

1122
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 2: so good they got Jeremy off because basically they found

1123
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 2: no fingerprints on the murder weapon, and the jury ended

1124
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: up saying that kid didn't seem smart enough to wipe

1125
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 2: fingerprints down, so I don't think he did it. And

1126
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: so they acquitted him. But this particular detective like, why

1127
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:16,759
Speaker 2: didn't you look at those prints and say, who are

1128
00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:19,360
Speaker 2: some known violent felons in the area. They could have

1129
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 2: done a manual comparison, and that was never done, or

1130
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to say it was never done. The worst

1131
00:53:24,920 --> 00:53:26,560
Speaker 2: side of it is that it was done and it

1132
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: didn't like what they found. I didn't find any evidence

1133
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 2: of that, but I'll tell you there was a pack

1134
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,279
Speaker 2: of Marlboro Reds sitting very close to the bloodstains that

1135
00:53:36,480 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 2: was photographed by police but never processed, never fingerprinted. I

1136
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:43,879
Speaker 2: always found that very strange. It's the only object that's

1137
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,080
Speaker 2: photographed at the scene that was never tested. And you know,

1138
00:53:47,160 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 2: if you look back at Jeremy's other cases, he smoked

1139
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 2: Marlboro Reds and he left him at two other seats.

1140
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 2: To me, it's just like I want to believe the

1141
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: best that it was just incompetence, But sometimes I look

1142
00:53:57,600 --> 00:53:58,920
Speaker 2: at this stuff and go, come on.

1143
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,000
Speaker 1: Well things, I mean with Jeremy for people to say,

1144
00:54:03,239 --> 00:54:06,960
Speaker 1: you know, maybe his book smarts are not as adept

1145
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: and you don't need that to get away with a crime,

1146
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 1: I mean, you don't. I think it's some of the

1147
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: most intelligent killers I have ever written about were some

1148
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 1: of the stupidest criminals, and then vice versa. So a

1149
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:20,560
Speaker 1: stereo thief has to be at least street smart to

1150
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: be able to get away with that. You know, I

1151
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: know he was in jail, but still and then you

1152
00:54:23,880 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: know the other part. Paul and I talk about this

1153
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,839
Speaker 1: on the other show, about the idea of overkill, which

1154
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: I think is way overblown. I think there is pure

1155
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: rage anger, and it can be at a total stranger.

1156
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:38,200
Speaker 1: It does not have to be some intimate anything. Absolutely,

1157
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 1: and Paul actually says it that I asked you about

1158
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 1: the defense wounds, because he said, sometimes people stab that much.

1159
00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: You know, it doesn't matter if they're passionate or not.

1160
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: It's the person keeps moving and you don't have a choice.

1161
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,239
Speaker 1: You're so scared that they're alive and they're gonna hurt you.

1162
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: That's why they keep stabbing. It's not anger at that

1163
00:54:55,400 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: specific woman. It can be anger at anybody, or it

1164
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,840
Speaker 1: could just be like he's scared he hasn't done the

1165
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:04,200
Speaker 1: job yet. So I think way too much. There's so

1166
00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 1: much assumption going on in this case of yours.

1167
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,239
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I agree with you. Completely about that. Like,

1168
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,439
Speaker 2: I just feel like to call this a passion killing,

1169
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 2: it has to be someone. Now you don't know that,

1170
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,319
Speaker 2: Like there's no way to know that. There's plenty of

1171
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:18,880
Speaker 2: stabbing victims that are total strangers, but in this particular case,

1172
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,239
Speaker 2: you know, it's pretty shocking that it comes back to

1173
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 2: Jeremy Scott, who is in and out of prison, in

1174
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:26,800
Speaker 2: jail all the time, but on this particular night where Michelle,

1175
00:55:27,120 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: we know he's in Lakeland, he's living in Lakeland, not

1176
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 2: too far. In fact, his trailer he's staying in, his

1177
00:55:33,600 --> 00:55:38,680
Speaker 2: grandmother's trailer is located almost exactly between Tom's restaurant where

1178
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 2: Michelle last worked and the place she was found. It's

1179
00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: right in the middle of that. And we're only talking

1180
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: a few miles, so you know, there you have it,

1181
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,879
Speaker 2: and this is a place he's known to hang out at.

1182
00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,680
Speaker 1: And no alibia I assume for Jeremy Scott that night.

1183
00:55:52,000 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 2: No, I've looked at the thing. Like, Jeremy's not a

1184
00:55:54,719 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 2: really good liar either, And so when he's trying to

1185
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 2: put a story in place about they ask him how

1186
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 2: to tell that's how you stole the stereo, and he

1187
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,279
Speaker 2: describes it and you just like, if you do this enough,

1188
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:07,920
Speaker 2: you start to see weird things. He says, something really curious.

1189
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 2: He says, well, I drove past the car, and then

1190
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 2: I went to this gas station and I saw this

1191
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,080
Speaker 2: trash can there, and I stopped at the trash can,

1192
00:56:15,120 --> 00:56:16,480
Speaker 2: and then I met a U turn and I decided

1193
00:56:16,520 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: to go back and steal the stereo. Why would you

1194
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 2: mention that trash can Like this is just something that's really.

1195
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: Small, very detailed, So kind of give me the broad

1196
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:27,040
Speaker 1: strokes of how this goes. I know you got heavily

1197
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:30,640
Speaker 1: involved with this. You obviously feel like Leo is innocent

1198
00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: in Jeremy at a minimum needs to be better investigated.

1199
00:56:34,840 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 1: But Leo's still in prison.

1200
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,120
Speaker 2: Well several years after. Jeremy doesn't get any help with

1201
00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:42,760
Speaker 2: his parole. That's what he always said, Like they promised

1202
00:56:42,760 --> 00:56:45,240
Speaker 2: you're gonna help me with my parole, and nothing ever happened.

1203
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:48,640
Speaker 2: And that prosecutor died. Jhona Guerro died. He said, now

1204
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:51,040
Speaker 2: I'm telling the truth. He was mad, and he wrote

1205
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 2: a letter to Leo's lawyer and confessed to killing Michelle.

1206
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:55,840
Speaker 2: So I'll tell you everything, how I did it and everything.

1207
00:56:56,360 --> 00:57:00,000
Speaker 2: And he did that, and ultimately I interviewed him in prison,

1208
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:04,400
Speaker 2: and he told I was walking down Comby Road. I

1209
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:07,440
Speaker 2: saw a girl at a payphone at this gas station.

1210
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 2: She recognized me, he said. I didn't know who she was,

1211
00:57:10,400 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 2: but she must have seen me in town or something

1212
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 2: like that. And it was kind of raining. She said,

1213
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 2: why are you all wet? He says, I need a ride,

1214
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: and he said where he was going, and he led

1215
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 2: her to the cut and he led her back there

1216
00:57:22,720 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: and she says, there's no houses back here, and that's

1217
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 2: when a knife comes out of his jacket pocket and

1218
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 2: she starts panicking and screaming and fighting him, and he

1219
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:34,080
Speaker 2: attacked her. And after he attacked her, he said, I

1220
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,400
Speaker 2: smoked some cigarettes trying to figure out what to do.

1221
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: Then I just dragged her into the water, and I

1222
00:57:38,880 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 2: took the car and was going back to my mom's house,

1223
00:57:41,520 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 2: which is in that direction. Car broke down. Why did

1224
00:57:45,080 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: it break down? He said, Michelle got so scared that

1225
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 2: she drove the car out of trying to drive out

1226
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,760
Speaker 2: of the cut, and he slammed it into park and

1227
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 2: something happened mechanically to the car that is consistent with

1228
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 2: somebody doing that slamming a moving car into park him

1229
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,440
Speaker 2: for four years. Since then, he's never denied killing Michelle. Ever,

1230
00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:09,200
Speaker 2: he goes into extreme detail. He also confessed to killing

1231
00:58:09,240 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 2: somebody else that he'd gotten away with, and it absolutely matches.

1232
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 2: He drew me a map of all his movements and

1233
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 2: he just said, I want to help Leo. He doesn't

1234
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: belong in prison. I'm the one who killed his wife.

1235
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,560
Speaker 1: So now what I mean, do we have a new problem.

1236
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: We must have a new prosecutor on Lakeland at this point.

1237
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 2: Nope, there is somebody new, but they've just doubled down.

1238
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 2: This case is so obvious at this point it feels

1239
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,919
Speaker 2: even embarrassing talking about the trial because it has nothing

1240
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: to do with the facts. Jeremy Scott is clearly the

1241
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,080
Speaker 2: killer in this case. In fact, Leo and Jeremy. Leo

1242
00:58:39,160 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 2: finally got out last year on parole. He's still convicted

1243
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:45,560
Speaker 2: murder in the eyes of the state, but he's out

1244
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:48,600
Speaker 2: on parole at least. And he believes that Jeremy coming

1245
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 2: clean is what did it. Because our podcast came out

1246
00:58:51,880 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 2: and it was just, you know, obvious to everyone who

1247
00:58:54,120 --> 00:58:57,360
Speaker 2: listened that Jeremy Scott is the real killer and it's

1248
00:58:57,360 --> 00:58:59,280
Speaker 2: not a case of like some guy saying I'll take

1249
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,640
Speaker 2: the fall. He was there, he lived there, and he

1250
00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 2: talked about details that you know, nobody should have known,

1251
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 2: and I looked into his case. I've been writing to him,

1252
00:59:08,280 --> 00:59:10,760
Speaker 2: talking to him even to this day, and he's admitted

1253
00:59:10,800 --> 00:59:12,720
Speaker 2: to all the murders he's committed, even though he only

1254
00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 2: got caught on one of them.

1255
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: Can the Innocence Project in New York get involved with

1256
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:17,840
Speaker 1: this or is there a project involved?

1257
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 2: The Innocence Project of Florida has had the case, but

1258
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 2: basically they've just doubled down and said, you know what

1259
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 2: a jury has spoken, the appellate courts has spoken. You know,

1260
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 2: it's the same thing that every wrongful conviction has. Yes,

1261
00:59:29,480 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 2: juries have ruled against you, and the pellate courts have

1262
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,560
Speaker 2: ruled against you. There's powerful people, I can tell you

1263
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 2: in Leo's corner, including the chairman of the Criminal Justice Committee,

1264
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,560
Speaker 2: who actually testified at Leo's hearing saying this is an

1265
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 2: abomination and makes him sick to his stomach that this

1266
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 2: man is still in prison for this crime. He's got

1267
00:59:47,240 --> 00:59:49,560
Speaker 2: some very powerful people out there, but there's an island

1268
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,400
Speaker 2: in this one circuit that just will not let go

1269
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: of this and they're just they will not let the

1270
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:55,600
Speaker 2: conviction go.

1271
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:59,040
Speaker 1: That's unbelievable because I mean that is you know, demanding

1272
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:01,800
Speaker 1: relief because of new evidence, not I mean, I know

1273
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 1: it's things that Jack Edmund missed as his defense attorney.

1274
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 1: But at the same time, this is no this is

1275
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: somebody who's confessing that's unreal and there's no DNA right

1276
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: because everything got thrown.

1277
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 2: Out, everything was destroyed, and you know, it's just it's

1278
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 2: it's a really embarrassing I think to just look at

1279
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: this case and look at the facts of it and

1280
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 2: just see that the state is just still taking this position.

1281
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:24,440
Speaker 2: You know that they ended up saying that Jeremy Scott

1282
01:00:24,480 --> 01:00:26,680
Speaker 2: because he once said that he didn't do it, and

1283
01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 2: now he says he does he did do it, that

1284
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: you can't believe a word he says. So they have

1285
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 2: to throw it all out with the bathwater. It's like,

1286
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 2: how about doing an investigation?

1287
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, did he talk to anybody else about this who's

1288
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 1: not currently in prison or when he I mean, is

1289
01:00:41,720 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: there anybody who corroborate what he's saying.

1290
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 2: There's one person that we believe, but you know, the

1291
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: state just attacked him. He was like the jailhouse lawyer,

1292
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,320
Speaker 2: and after he found out that that his fingerprints were

1293
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,320
Speaker 2: found there, he worried that he's going to get sent

1294
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 2: back to death row. He apparently confessed to this other

1295
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 2: jailhouse lawyer. But you know, they just destroyed that guy's

1296
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: credibility on the stand and made it seem like this

1297
01:01:02,680 --> 01:01:06,000
Speaker 2: is just a bunch of crazy people talking. And you know, granted, Jeremy,

1298
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:10,520
Speaker 2: he's off his meds, he's upset in court, and you know,

1299
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:12,959
Speaker 2: they make him look kind of crazy that he's sitting

1300
01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 2: in a git in a psych cell, eating off his fingers,

1301
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:16,880
Speaker 2: and so they made him just seem like a not

1302
01:01:17,000 --> 01:01:20,640
Speaker 2: credible witness, and so that's easy for them to dismiss him.

1303
01:01:20,640 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 2: But I think it's one of the laziest things you

1304
01:01:22,200 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 2: could do, because if you sit down with that guy,

1305
01:01:24,880 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 2: you know, he tells you the things he did, and

1306
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 2: he's you know, he's coming clean about his.

1307
01:01:28,560 --> 01:01:31,520
Speaker 1: Life, okay, And a couple of sentence says, what did

1308
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:32,720
Speaker 1: you learn from all of this?

1309
01:01:33,440 --> 01:01:35,840
Speaker 2: You know, I guess I learned that you don't really

1310
01:01:35,920 --> 01:01:39,080
Speaker 2: guaranteed to get truth in a courtroom because how a

1311
01:01:39,120 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 2: lot of stuff is just inadmissible and a verdicts don't

1312
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,560
Speaker 2: really have to do a truth. I find if you

1313
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 2: look at our second season, it really gets to the

1314
01:01:45,680 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 2: bottom of it. We you know, we go back into

1315
01:01:48,360 --> 01:01:49,760
Speaker 2: this case, but we do it from a different side.

1316
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 2: We do it from Jeremy's side, and it's all about

1317
01:01:52,600 --> 01:01:56,040
Speaker 2: my conversations and my relationship with Jeremy and all the

1318
01:01:56,120 --> 01:01:59,360
Speaker 2: remorse when Leo Schofield doesn't show remorse in a parole

1319
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:02,800
Speaker 2: hearing because he says, I have a claim of innocence

1320
01:02:02,840 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: that I've never wavered from. I cannot apologize for killing

1321
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 2: someone I did not kill. All the remorse is Jeremy's remorse.

1322
01:02:10,720 --> 01:02:13,800
Speaker 2: He like cried in our interview. You know, He's like,

1323
01:02:13,880 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: I think about Michelle all the time. I'm torment. This

1324
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 2: is my punishment. I go to bed and see the

1325
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 2: faces of the people I killed at night. That's my punishment.

1326
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,600
Speaker 2: I think anybody who listens to him will just side.

1327
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 2: The state has this completely backward.

1328
01:02:26,520 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 1: And I think our listeners know how rare it is

1329
01:02:28,360 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 1: to get some kind of a confession like that to

1330
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: be able to play on a podcast and really build

1331
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: the case that you've built. I know that Leo is out,

1332
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,240
Speaker 1: but this is hanging over him and will until he

1333
01:02:38,280 --> 01:02:41,160
Speaker 1: dies unless you know, this gets expunged or somebody can

1334
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: help in some way. And so you know, I'm pulling

1335
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: for you because you did some hard work on this

1336
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 1: and I know how personal you're taking this, So I

1337
01:02:49,000 --> 01:02:51,040
Speaker 1: hope it works out for both of you really with this.

1338
01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've been through this with my stories

1339
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,640
Speaker 2: in the past, and eventually, like it's undeniable, it just

1340
01:02:56,680 --> 01:02:58,840
Speaker 2: needs to be handled by the right person to come along.

1341
01:02:58,920 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 2: And there are some really good people and Leo's corner

1342
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 2: that are not quitting on this, and Leo isn't either.

1343
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:06,520
Speaker 2: He just says, this is about justice for my dead wife.

1344
01:03:06,680 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 2: I don't want her in all of eternity believing that

1345
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 2: something like I did this. It's not the truth, and

1346
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 2: he goes, I have to just get justice for my wife.

1347
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1348
01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:32,080
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

1349
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:35,440
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock, and Don't Forget. There are

1350
01:03:35,520 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold More

1351
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,960
Speaker 1: Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back and

1352
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:45,760
Speaker 1: give them a listen if you haven't already. This has

1353
01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is Alexis M. Morosi.

1354
01:03:50,680 --> 01:03:55,120
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

1355
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:59,040
Speaker 1: by John Bradley. Curtis heath is our composer. Artwork by

1356
01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:03,600
Speaker 1: Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

1357
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: Danielle Kramer. Listen to Wicked Words on the iHeartRadio app,

1358
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow Wicked

1359
01:04:11,680 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: Words on Instagram at tenfold more Wicked, and on Facebook

1360
01:04:16,000 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 1: at wicked Words Pod