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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. An American mother goes on

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Speaker 1: a dream vacation to Turks and Caicos at a Club

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Speaker 1: Med and ends up dead as everyone takes off for

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Speaker 1: summer holidays. This is certainly a cautionary tale, a tell

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Speaker 1: too which there have been no real answers. Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. It began as a week away in

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Speaker 1: paradise for three hard working Suffolk County Legal aid attorneys.

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Speaker 1: It was just like a bad dream. It was like

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Speaker 1: it was a real The pain still so fresh for

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Speaker 1: Marie Cools's closest friends A year after the long island

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Speaker 1: wife and mother disappeared at the popular Club Bet Turks

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Speaker 1: and Caicos resort. A few days into the trip, Marie

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Speaker 1: decided to take a break from the pool and come

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Speaker 1: here to her room to take a nap. She never

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Speaker 1: showed up for dinner. A dream vacation at Turks and

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Speaker 1: Keikos turns to murder. How did that happen? And another thing?

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Speaker 1: When you think of Club Med, I think high end, exclusive,

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Speaker 1: fancy gated community, gotta be right on the beach, and

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Speaker 1: Turks and Keikos has beautiful beaches, so how in an

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Speaker 1: island paradise. Does a mom an American who's on a

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Speaker 1: getaway with her girlfriends from work end up murdered? With

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Speaker 1: me an all star panel to make sense of it all?

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Speaker 1: Abe George, high profile lawyer joining us out of New York.

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Speaker 1: At Abe George dot lawyer he represents her family. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Jory Crossen, psychologist, ADJUCT faculty Saint Leo's and author of

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Speaker 1: Operation SOS Practical Recommendations to stop Officers suicide. Doctor Todd M. Barr,

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Speaker 1: Deputy medical Examiner forensic Pathologists joining us out of Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: Former police chief, now twenty five years under his belt

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Speaker 1: as police officer. You can find him at Chris Buyer's

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Speaker 1: Investigations and polygraph dot com. Special guests joining us in

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Speaker 1: addition to Abe George is Sarah Wallace, investigative reporter with

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Speaker 1: NBC four nineteen Emmy Awards And you're about to find

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Speaker 1: out why, guys, you were just hearing our friends at

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Speaker 1: NBC four And now let's go to Sarah Wallace. Sarah,

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Speaker 1: this woman, Marie Chunla was beloved an American mom, and

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Speaker 1: not only that, she devoted her career helping underprivileged people

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Speaker 1: that need a lawyer. As a public defender. That is

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Speaker 1: not an easy job at all. No, it's one of

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Speaker 1: the toughest job. And she worked for Legal Aid in

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Speaker 1: Suffolk County, which is that on Long Island, and she

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Speaker 1: and her two friends and the daughter of one of

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Speaker 1: those friends, decided to take a dream vacation. You know,

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Speaker 1: you go, Nancy, you do probably you go with your

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Speaker 1: girlfriend for a getaway. And that's what they did. And

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Speaker 1: they thought that Club Med was safe. It's known to

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Speaker 1: be by the most famous, well yeah, in the world

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Speaker 1: because when you look up Club Mad. Have you ever

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Speaker 1: looked at their advertisements online, it's paradise. When you look

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Speaker 1: up Club Mad, all inclusive escapes and they really push exclusivity, vacation,

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Speaker 1: start planning, now, flexibility, all the different resorts. They've got

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Speaker 1: resorts all over the world. Now, the one we're talking

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Speaker 1: about is the Club Mad at Turks and Caicos. Tell

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Speaker 1: me about that one. Well, it's known to be a

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Speaker 1: beach paradise. And one of the things that I think

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Speaker 1: when people do go to a Club Med is the

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Speaker 1: name stands for something and you think it's going to

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Speaker 1: be secure, and Americans flop to that location. It's one

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Speaker 1: of the most popular in the world. I have actually

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Speaker 1: been there previously to my investigation years ago, and it

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Speaker 1: is spectacular. It's beautiful that beaches are gorgeous. People go

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Speaker 1: to have fun, and they certainly don't go thinking that

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Speaker 1: something horrible is going to happen. Okay, I've got to

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Speaker 1: tell you. I peaked online exclusive resort on an award

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Speaker 1: winning beach. Come discover a newly redesigned Club med Turquoise.

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Speaker 1: I get it. Play on the words Turks and Keikos,

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Speaker 1: all inclusive paradise. Couples and friends learn what it means

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Speaker 1: to truly disconnect luxury, to do it all or nothing

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Speaker 1: at all, making this the perfect destiny, action packed or

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Speaker 1: romantic getaway. It goes on and on, and the pictures

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Speaker 1: they're stunning. It doesn't even look real. The water is

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Speaker 1: so turquoise and in spots completely clear, you can see

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Speaker 1: right down to the bottom. Guys were talking about an

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Speaker 1: American mom that goes on a dream vacation at Turks

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Speaker 1: and Kikos Club Med and ends up not just dead,

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Speaker 1: but murdered. Take a listen to our friends At ABC seven.

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Speaker 1: Marie Kunla and her friends had been having a great

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Speaker 1: girls getaway at Club Med in Turks and kikos. She

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Speaker 1: was having the time of her life. She really was.

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Speaker 1: She kept saying to me, this is the best vacation.

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Speaker 1: Kuonla's friends, Kim Nohilly and Helma Hermann's were on the

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Speaker 1: trip with kuon La and see. The last time they

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Speaker 1: saw Kuonla was Sunday, October fourteenth, a few days after

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Speaker 1: being at the resort. Saw her around six thirty on

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Speaker 1: Sunday and she went to lay down and take a nap.

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Speaker 1: Seven o'clock the next morning, I was banging on her

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Speaker 1: door for a while and she wasn't answering, which is

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Speaker 1: really weird from what we know. Back to you, Sarah Wallace,

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Speaker 1: what was her personality? I mean, it wasn't unusual at

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Speaker 1: all that she wanted to go to her room and

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Speaker 1: not go to dinner with everyone. Was she a quiet person?

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Speaker 1: I think she was quiet. Her friends describe her as

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Speaker 1: just being but very good natured, and she had met

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Speaker 1: a lot of people at the pool. It's not unnatural,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you've been at the pool all day

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Speaker 1: long that you go to take a nap, maybe before dinner.

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Speaker 1: And maybe she just didn't want to go to dinner,

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Speaker 1: and she thought she was just going to rest in

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Speaker 1: her room. But the next morning, that's when her friends

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Speaker 1: became alarmed because she didn't show up the breakfast and

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Speaker 1: they flagged security right then they notified the desk that

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Speaker 1: she right now hold on, I'll find that really interesting, guys,

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Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, who's joining me from NBC four New York's

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Speaker 1: Eye Team. That's really interesting because in the legal bit

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Speaker 1: as we call that routine behavior routine evidence, not that

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Speaker 1: it is run of the mill evidence, but it is

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Speaker 1: evidence of routine or evidence of routine behavior. When this

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Speaker 1: woman did not show up to breakfast and they go

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Speaker 1: to her room at bam on the door and she

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Speaker 1: doesn't come by knowing her so well, so intimately her friends,

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Speaker 1: they're at legal aid, knew something was wrong. And I

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Speaker 1: want to go out to you, Abe George, new York

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Speaker 1: City attorney who was representing the Kula family. That is

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Speaker 1: admissible and all sorts of trials, particularly we've used it

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Speaker 1: in criminal trials. So they knew when she didn't answer

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Speaker 1: the door and she didn't show up for breakfast, something

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Speaker 1: was wrong, right, yes, Nancy. And just the night before

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Speaker 1: one of Marie's friends, Alma, wiled to complaint at the

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Speaker 1: desk at Club mad seeing that there was an individual

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Speaker 1: who was a problem to their group. You were just

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Speaker 1: hearing our friends at NBC for New York. Now take

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Speaker 1: a listen to Kristen Thorne at ABC seventy York. No.

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Speaker 1: Hilly and Herman's immediately reported the Lantall resident missing, but

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Speaker 1: say they didn't get much help at first from resort's staff,

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Speaker 1: so they went searching for Kunla themselves. It was my

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Speaker 1: daughter who found the body, not the police. That was

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Speaker 1: early Tuesday morning. Kunla's body was lying in bushes on

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Speaker 1: the edge of the Club Med resort. Her friends the

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Speaker 1: authorities told them Kunla had been strangled. You know, to

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Speaker 1: doctor Todd M. Barr, deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologists joining

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Speaker 1: us out of Cleveland, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: When you hear strangled or asphyxiated, that sounds kind of benign,

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Speaker 1: it's almost euphemistic. But when you see a violence strangling,

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Speaker 1: I mean, doctor Barr, I've seen strangling square The victim's

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Speaker 1: throat was about the size of the opening of a

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Speaker 1: mason jar. Because the victim has been strangled so violently,

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Speaker 1: it's just completely unnatural. So when you say that you

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Speaker 1: happen upon a victim that has been strangled dead. That

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Speaker 1: is a site that you'll never forget, especially as a civilian. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: how is it that a human neck give me strangle

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Speaker 1: down to that size? Well, there's a lot of soft

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Speaker 1: tissue in the neck and there's a lot of flexibility

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Speaker 1: in the neck that can be compressed. Um. One of

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Speaker 1: the things that I would like to know. I believe

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Speaker 1: that it was called a manual strangulation, which is different

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Speaker 1: than aspicia Bio Time Stories with Nancy Grace to Sarah Wallace,

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Speaker 1: investigative reporter with NBC four New York's it Aim tell

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Speaker 1: me about the friend finding her, Well, they discovered her

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Speaker 1: body in a clump of bushes, and we went down

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Speaker 1: to Club Med because we wanted to see the location

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Speaker 1: for ourselves because, first of all, when they talked about it,

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Speaker 1: originally they said her body was found near the Club

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Speaker 1: Med resort. That's what the Island too said that, Sarah.

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Speaker 1: The Island police put that out on their Facebook page

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Speaker 1: that her body had been found near the Club Med resort.

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Speaker 1: When I spoke with her two friends, they made it

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Speaker 1: very clear that no her body was found on the property,

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Speaker 1: and we went down to take a look for ourselves

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Speaker 1: to see the exact location. You know, Nancy, you want

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Speaker 1: to do that. You want to walk the crime scene

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Speaker 1: and get a sense of where everything is yourself as

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Speaker 1: an investigator. What struck me is that she was found

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Speaker 1: in a remote location of the property on the Sandy

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Speaker 1: Dirt Road and outcrossing of the Sandy Dirt Road that

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Speaker 1: leads to the staff housing. In my mind, there is

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Speaker 1: no way that Marie Kunla walked to that location. It's

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Speaker 1: my belief that she was probably jumped there out of

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Speaker 1: a car or some kind of vehicle. Her sandal was

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Speaker 1: found about one hundred yards down the road on another

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Speaker 1: fork of the road that actually leads to the outer

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Speaker 1: gate of the property. Hold on. I want to follow

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Speaker 1: up on what you're just saying, Sarah, because I find

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Speaker 1: it really significant, and I want to go to Chris

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Speaker 1: Buyer's former police chief, John's Creek. Sarah's right think about it.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if this is going to be

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Speaker 1: the same with you, Chris, But as a jogger, a

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Speaker 1: female jogger, I would be careful When I was thinking clearly,

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Speaker 1: why with all the beautiful trails and the roads and

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Speaker 1: places you could go there at Turks and Cacos club ed.

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Speaker 1: Would you go up a path, a dirt path, going

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Speaker 1: up to let's just say the maintenance facilities or the

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Speaker 1: employee maintenance area. Why would you do that? I don't

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Speaker 1: think that you would go off by yourself sandals, not jogging,

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Speaker 1: not going for a walk, and instead of going on

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Speaker 1: all the routes they have for you, go up and

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Speaker 1: wander around the facilities and maintenance. That doesn't make sense

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Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, there's absolutely no reason for that. You're

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Speaker 1: paying the price for those beaches that we just talked about,

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Speaker 1: for all of the infrastructure there. It's that beautiful resort.

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Speaker 1: You're not going to be off on these paths. It

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Speaker 1: sounds to me like she was dumped there by somebody

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Speaker 1: that knew exactly where they were at and a george

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us out of New York. Abe.

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Speaker 1: This adds another layer to the murder. It's not just

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Speaker 1: that somebody murdered her, It's that someone dragged her to

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Speaker 1: that location and murdered her or murdered her and then

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Speaker 1: disposed of her body there. That adds another layer to

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Speaker 1: the murder. Yeah, and this was a manual strangulation and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure doctor bar will provide some insight as to

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Speaker 1: why that's significant. So doctor Todd M. Barr joining us

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Speaker 1: out of Cleveland. Manual strangulation, Why does that make a

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Speaker 1: difference in your mind? Doctor, Well, when you have a

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Speaker 1: hanging or a ligature, typically you'd have a ligature mark

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Speaker 1: left on the outside surface of the skin. And with

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Speaker 1: a manual strangulation, if it's done from the front and

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Speaker 1: the thumbs are compressing the neck from the front, you

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Speaker 1: typically will get a broken hyoid bone, which is the

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Speaker 1: bone that is at the floor of the mouth. Also,

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Speaker 1: the tricheal cartilage and the cricoid cartilage are also in

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Speaker 1: that same vicinity. So if there's compression coming upon the

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Speaker 1: neck with the hands wrapped around the neck and the

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Speaker 1: thumbs are directing that pressure, you get these typical findings

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Speaker 1: in an autosopy. So, if the purp is strangling her

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Speaker 1: while looking her in the eyes, like, the thumbs will

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Speaker 1: be over the highoid with the fingertips in the back.

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Speaker 1: If you are attacked from behind, the thumbs will be

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Speaker 1: at the back exerting pressure and the fingers on the front.

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Speaker 1: And you know what I find interesting about that too.

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Speaker 1: Psychologist faculty at Saint Leo. Author doctor Jerry Crawlson is

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Speaker 1: that I've referred to these and knife things as sweetheart murders,

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Speaker 1: not that there's anything sweet about them, but you are

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Speaker 1: up close and intimate to your victim when you are

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Speaker 1: murdering them. He could have very well been looking her

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Speaker 1: in the eyes at the time he strangled her dead,

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Speaker 1: which is an entirely a scary and shocking element of

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Speaker 1: this crime. That type of attack is very personal, and

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Speaker 1: especially if there's you know, anger, aggression, rage, this is

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Speaker 1: the perfect type of attack that there's these individuals use.

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Speaker 1: They want to be close, they want to see the terror,

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Speaker 1: they want to experience that that drives that force even

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Speaker 1: more on the choking. So yeah, this is a very

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Speaker 1: personal attack. And I find it really interesting what Sarah

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Speaker 1: Wallace told us from NBC for New York that the

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Speaker 1: Island Police. I guess we're told by Club Med that

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Speaker 1: her body was found near Club Med grounds, not on

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Speaker 1: Club Med grounds. Why was that a George. Everything that

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Speaker 1: Clubmed has been doing since the investigation of this case

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Speaker 1: has been trying to attenuate the murder from their property

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Speaker 1: and Nancy. This even comes down to the corporate shell

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Speaker 1: game that Clubmed please in terms of the different legal

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Speaker 1: entities that are set up that tourists don't know about.

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Speaker 1: You assume that, hey, you're going to Club Med, you're

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Speaker 1: staying at Club Med. But club Med is to read

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Speaker 1: five corporate shells just to insure themselves against civil liability

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Speaker 1: that if something happens to you, you've got nowhere to

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Speaker 1: turn to. But what we're doing is slowly unfolding those

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Speaker 1: shells to show that Clubbed has been responsible for everything

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Speaker 1: that happens on its property. Guys, take a listen to Sarah,

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Speaker 1: our friend, Sarah Wallace at Embassy for New York, a

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Speaker 1: friend found Marie Cumla's bruised body in a clump of bushes.

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Speaker 1: The medical examiner later determined she'd been manually strangled because

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Speaker 1: she was not walking to that location. It happened either

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Speaker 1: she's murdered, there had been dumped, there was murdered somewhere else.

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Speaker 1: And though private investigator Eddie Dowd was hired by Cula's

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Speaker 1: family on Long Island, they say they were stonewalled from

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Speaker 1: the very beginning by Club Med and Island police. You

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Speaker 1: don't think they took it seriously. They just wanted them

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Speaker 1: to sweep it under the rugs. Probably them. It's the

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Speaker 1: easiest way to answer that. The couple's son lives in California.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what happened and we won justice

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Speaker 1: for my mom. Guys, you're hearing not only the private

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Speaker 1: eye hired by the family they had to go to

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Speaker 1: that expense, but the sun that is hurting about the

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Speaker 1: murder off his mother. You were also hearing our friend

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Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace. Sarah, you went to the location. What did

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Speaker 1: you see in the spot where her body was found

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Speaker 1: and why did her friends have to find her and

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Speaker 1: not the club med staff. Well, that's a really good

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Speaker 1: question because they notified the staff in the morning, twenty

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Speaker 1: four hours after she originally had been seen at the pool,

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Speaker 1: and twelve hours after she hadn't shown up for dinner.

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Speaker 1: They then later that afternoon notified Island police. They were

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Speaker 1: told they actually had to wait until the afternoon for

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Speaker 1: police to be notified, and the next morning. It was

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Speaker 1: the next morning that they found her body. The friends

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Speaker 1: found her body in this clump of bushes. Now it's

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Speaker 1: about several hundred yards away from the guest cottages, but

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Speaker 1: it's a wall the way from where you would think

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Speaker 1: anybody would walk. It just doesn't make sense that if

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Speaker 1: you were going for a little rendezvous or you were

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Speaker 1: going to have a drink with somebody, that you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: go to the beach or some other property area that

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Speaker 1: was frequented by people. This was off off off from

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Speaker 1: the main area, the main road, the main entrance. Crime

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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, we're talking about the murder of

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Speaker 1: an American mom. He goes on his dream vacation with

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Speaker 1: her friends to Club Mad and Turks and Caicos. So

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Speaker 1: the Club Mad told the friends they had to wait

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Speaker 1: another twenty four hours before they call police. They flagged

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Speaker 1: them in the morning, and they were told that they

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Speaker 1: couldn't notify them until later that afternoon, which would have

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Speaker 1: been twenty four hours from the time that she was

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Speaker 1: last seen that she left the pool and went to

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Speaker 1: her room to take a nap. Now, what's also significant,

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Speaker 1: I think is that the family who was so frustrated,

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Speaker 1: and you heard them say that they believed that they've

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Speaker 1: been stonewalled. They didn't get her body back for six weeks.

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Speaker 1: And by that time, and you'll hear your experts to

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Speaker 1: talk about that her body was so decomposed that they

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Speaker 1: couldn't do another autopsy, so it was not properly stored.

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Speaker 1: Do you know, Sarah Wallace, was there any evidence that

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Speaker 1: she ever even made it back to her room that

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Speaker 1: night She was last seen going to the room. We

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Speaker 1: don't know if she actually got there, but her friends

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Speaker 1: believed that she went to the room. And when I

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Speaker 1: said night, it's really several hours before supper. Correct, Correct.

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Speaker 1: She left in the afternoon, around a little before six,

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Speaker 1: and then they had dinner, and she didn't show up

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Speaker 1: for dinner, So it would be natural, maybe you go

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Speaker 1: to take a nap in your room and then you

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Speaker 1: would come later. And it didn't think anything of it

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Speaker 1: when she didn't see up for dinner, because maybe she

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Speaker 1: was just resting and she fell asleep. But by that

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Speaker 1: next morning the alarm bell started to go off. Sarah, Well,

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Speaker 1: she found in the same clothing that they last saw

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Speaker 1: her in. She was She was found in the same clothing.

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Speaker 1: And let's go back to the sandal. The sandal that

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Speaker 1: was found about a hundred yards away from her body.

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Speaker 1: There is no way, Nancy, that she would have walked

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Speaker 1: on that sandy dirt road. It is gravelly, it's rough

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Speaker 1: on your feet, She wouldn't have just gone walking on

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Speaker 1: that road and her scandal was up somewhere else, and

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Speaker 1: she wouldn't have gone barefoot any distance from that. So

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Speaker 1: that's where the attack began, or evidence that she was

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Speaker 1: dry from at least that spot to where her body

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Speaker 1: was found. When you say she was wearing the same

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Speaker 1: outfit she had on when she was last seen by

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Speaker 1: her friends leaving the pool before dinner, what was the outfit?

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Speaker 1: She was wearing a bathing suit, and then she had

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Speaker 1: to cover up over that and scandal. So that tells

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Speaker 1: me she never made it to her room, because why

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Speaker 1: would think about it a wet swimsuit, sandy yucky? Why

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Speaker 1: would you go in your room and take a shower

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Speaker 1: and lay down for a nap and then put back

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Speaker 1: on your same wet swimsuit and cover up. I don't

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Speaker 1: think she ever made it back to her room, that's possible.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if her room was in disarray, if she

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Speaker 1: was attacked in the room. Maybe the part was stealing

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Speaker 1: from her room. I mean, we don't know because such

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Speaker 1: a shotting investigation was done. Guys, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 1: The mysterious death of an American tourist is Rocking, a

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Speaker 1: popular resort on this upscale Caribbean island known for its white,

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Speaker 1: sandy beaches. Turks and Caicos is a favorite spot for

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Speaker 1: vacationers wanting to get away from it all. But this morning,

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Speaker 1: the Royal Turks and Caicos Islands Police Force has launched

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Speaker 1: a murder investigation into the death of Marie Kunla. The

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Speaker 1: attorney from Long Island, New York, was staying at the

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Speaker 1: club Med Turks and Caicos when she disappeared last Monday.

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Speaker 1: A day later, her body was found in some bushes

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Speaker 1: near the resort. Well, they launched her murder investigation. But

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Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, joining us from NBC four New York, I

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Speaker 1: bet that was like pulling a tooth. Well, I think

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Speaker 1: you know, from the very beginning there were questions about

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Speaker 1: the investigation. When we went down to Turks and Keikos,

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Speaker 1: we tried to talk to the lead investigator and we

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Speaker 1: were told at that time that the investigation was still open,

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Speaker 1: that it was a homicide investigation. But what we also

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Speaker 1: knew at the time is that privately they had told

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Speaker 1: the family that they were suspecting that it may not

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Speaker 1: have been a murder, so they were going down apparently

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Speaker 1: a different path, but told us something else. What is

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Speaker 1: that true? George Hyperfi, a lawyer retained by the family,

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Speaker 1: joining us out of New York. They told the family,

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Speaker 1: we think it might be a murder, but maybe it's not. Yes.

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Speaker 1: In September twenty nineteen, in fact, you had an investigator

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Speaker 1: from Turks and Keikos it's almost like the police academy

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Speaker 1: out there, that came out to New York to basically

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Speaker 1: tell the family they were reinvestigating this matter because they

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Speaker 1: didn't believe it was a manual strangulation. They were trying

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Speaker 1: to pose a theory that maybe she fell and that's

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Speaker 1: how she lost consciousness. It was ridiculous. We had a

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Speaker 1: Miami medical examiner that flew down there that I guess

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Speaker 1: was hired by Turks and the island of Turks and

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Speaker 1: Caicos for any murderers that went on on the island

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Speaker 1: to take a look at the body. And that medical

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Speaker 1: examiner found that it was manual strangulation. But apparently the

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Speaker 1: Turks and Caicos police department was not happy with that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, you know to doctor Todd im Barr.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Barr is the deputy medical examiner, a forensic pathologist

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Speaker 1: at Cleveland in the medical Examiner's office. And let me

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Speaker 1: tell you no offense Cleveland. That's a very high crime.

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Speaker 1: So you got a lot of murders going down there.

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Speaker 1: I know because I worked in the one of the

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Speaker 1: murder capitals of the country, Inner City Atlanta, I mean

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Speaker 1: for years toward the end, practically all I tried. We're homicides,

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Speaker 1: doctor Barr. How can you have a manual strangulation? And

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Speaker 1: once you've seen one, they're pretty easy to identify, according

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Speaker 1: to me, who knows nothing. Okay, I'm JD, not an

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Speaker 1: m D. But they are typically finger marks literally finger

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Speaker 1: marks that are bruises on the neck. You can see

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Speaker 1: the fingertips, you can see the actual fingers. You can see,

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Speaker 1: as you told me earlier, where there's more pressure where

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Speaker 1: the thumbs are. And it's really you mentioned the highoid bone.

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Speaker 1: It's really obvious. Often when you've got Emmanuel strangols, how

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Speaker 1: could they say, maybe she fail what on her neck?

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Speaker 1: So that's completely ridiculous, I mean completely ridiculous. And what

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Speaker 1: I would want to know is where the bruising was

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Speaker 1: that they found and if what were there any defense wounds?

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Speaker 1: On the backs of her hands, that she were there

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Speaker 1: scratch marks on her neck from her own fingernails trying

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Speaker 1: to pull the attacker off. And did they collect DNA

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00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:32,600
Speaker 1: or trace evidence? Did they swab her neck in her hands?

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00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,159
Speaker 1: And did they preserve evidence? And you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of stuff that that should have been done. I

404
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: don't know if it was done in the case or not.

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Speaker 1: And did they do a rape kit? You know, if

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Speaker 1: that was part of the possibility Time Stories with Nancy Gray,

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Speaker 1: you know, Sarah Walla's investigative reporter NBC for New York.

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Speaker 1: Don't you just love talking to medical examiners. They're so smart,

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Speaker 1: all right? And I could just listen to them all

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Speaker 1: day long. As a matter of fact, Sarah, very often

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Speaker 1: I would end or start a murder case with the

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Speaker 1: medical examiner because it just pulls everything together, things that

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Speaker 1: as a lawyer or a lay person you may not

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Speaker 1: think about. But was there a rate kit? Was there?

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Speaker 1: I can tell you right now there's no DNA taken

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Speaker 1: if they still think she fell on her neck. But

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Speaker 1: another thing, Sarah Wallison, correct me if I'm wrong. Doctor

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Speaker 1: Barr with a asphyxiation of any type, beak smothering ligature

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Speaker 1: or manual strangulation, you will have the particular in your eye,

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Speaker 1: those little blood vessels that you can't see pop and

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Speaker 1: sometimes gaily, and you can actually you can get that

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Speaker 1: in the oral mucosa as well. The lining of the mouth.

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Speaker 1: You can get it in the stop the press. What

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Speaker 1: did you just say about the oral mucosa. If you're

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Speaker 1: talk regular talk doctor, or are you talking the veins

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Speaker 1: in your mouth if you're you can get the same

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Speaker 1: patiquia that can be on the surface around the eyes.

428
00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: It can be uh, inside the mouth, like if you

429
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: pull your lip down, you can get patiquia there. Um.

430
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: It can be where the epiglottis is in your throat

431
00:27:28,840 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 1: that covers your airway when you're swallowing. Um. There's a

432
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 1: lot of stuff. Even in the deepest portion of the brain,

433
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,360
Speaker 1: in the base of the brain, there's a place called

434
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: the sphenoid sinus, and it's lined by this mucosa. And

435
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: we whenever we have a ligature or a manual strangulation,

436
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: we unroof that and look at that mucosa because you'll

437
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: actually see patiquia in that region as well. Well, you

438
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,399
Speaker 1: just schooled me. You take meniscal right there, Sarah Wallace.

439
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure none of that was done right. I don't

440
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:01,360
Speaker 1: know the details, and I don't think the family knows

441
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: the details because they have refused to turn over any

442
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 1: of the reports to the family. But going back to

443
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,960
Speaker 1: what your expert is just saying, the medical examiner did

444
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: the autopsy right then and there, so he knows what

445
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: he saw, he did the analysis. What happened afterward was

446
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: that they didn't preserve the body. So now to go

447
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: back and try and reanalyze what the medical examiner did

448
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: and question it seems kind of absurd when he was

449
00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 1: the one who saw the body initially and did an

450
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: expert examination. Wow, And typically photographs are taken during an autopsy. Ah,

451
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: you're right, doctor, You're absolutely right. Yet again, earlier you

452
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: were hearing our friends at ABCGMA. Now take a listen

453
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: to our cut six. This is Sarah, our friends Sarah

454
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,920
Speaker 1: Walt's an NBC four New York list. Twenty four hours later,

455
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 1: that awful discovery and her sandal found on the main

456
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: dirt nearby. You identified the shoe. Yes, herman's suspicious of

457
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: that male guest who had allegedly groped her, then reported

458
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: him to police. He later hired an attorney. Maurice's friends

459
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: and family, her husband and son, believe there's been no

460
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: real investigation by island police. First of all, you can't

461
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: feel it's beinhandled properly. I hate using this term out

462
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: but he can't get the closure like an open nerve.

463
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: When we visited the island's police station, we were told

464
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: the investigation, supported by the FBI, is still open, but

465
00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: it's still ongoing, and it still characterizes a murder. It is,

466
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,200
Speaker 1: but privately it's another story. As this video shows, the

467
00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: lead investigator recently met on Long Island with Marie's husband

468
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 1: and other family representatives who recorded the conversation. Okay, you

469
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: are now hearing about a guy who had been harassing

470
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:02,440
Speaker 1: the ladies, the group of ladies who was reported two

471
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 1: club mad and they did nothing. As a matter of fact,

472
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: take a listen to Sarah and our cut eleven. Michael Collins,

473
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: a retired Nassau County police officer, was at Club Mead

474
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 1: with his wife at the time of the murder. He

475
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: says guests were kept completely in the dark. They didn't

476
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: tell us anything. Did you see security cameras at club?

477
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: No security cameras when he got home, Collins says he

478
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: decided to report the suspicious behavior of a male guest,

479
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: another Long Island local. I had this feeling about it.

480
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 1: He he had other secrets about him. Marie's two friends

481
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: had also complained about that guest. Weeks later, a cryptic

482
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: phone message left at their office. You know how much

483
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: drinking was involved, and you left the country after knew

484
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: exactly where to find out the caller's number linked to

485
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: that guest in the pool. Marie's boss made a copy

486
00:30:57,680 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: of the tape and I provided it to the FBI

487
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: because at that time they were involved in the situation.

488
00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: Provided it to the FBI. You know, it kind of

489
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: feels like that's just like screaming it out of the

490
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: window driving down Third Avenue. I mean, what happened? Let

491
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 1: me circle back to Ave George, the high profile lawyer

492
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 1: hired by Maurice family. Who is this guy and is

493
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: it true the women had complained about him already? Multiple

494
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 1: people at the resort were complained about him, including the

495
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: woman that we just heard about from Sarah Elma, who

496
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted by this individual on a first day

497
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: at the resort. Okay, Sarah, what do we know about

498
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 1: this guy. His name Frank Yakulo, Frankie Kulo. I spoke

499
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 1: with him by phone a couple of times, and he

500
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: told me he questioned me. And originally the first thing

501
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,719
Speaker 1: he said to me on the phone was did they

502
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: ever find out who did it? That was the first

503
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: thing he said to me. He did tell me that

504
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: he had been to Aimed in Turks and Caicos and

505
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: questioned by police for the alleged sexual assault on Helma

506
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 1: Hermann's He stated that the bail had been posted at

507
00:32:10,960 --> 00:32:15,000
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars and that someone he believes to be

508
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 1: a local posted it. He doesn't know who, and when

509
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 1: he got back to Long Island and was questioned, he

510
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: then hired an attorney and that was the end of that. Okay,

511
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: let me understand. This guy, a former club man employee

512
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: not named by police, is Frank Yakulo, and he had

513
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: already been detained for sex assaulting another one of the women.

514
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: Is that correct, Sarah? That is correct. He denies that

515
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,480
Speaker 1: he did anything. He denies that he had anything to

516
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 1: do with Marie Kummler's murder or disappearance. He says that

517
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: he had been with her at the pool with a

518
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 1: group at the pool and that was the last time

519
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 1: he saw her. Take a listen to this for the

520
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: first time. Marie's friends are publicly revealing new details about

521
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 1: their concerns about a male guest they had met at

522
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: the pool, also from Long Island. That person kind of

523
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: latched on to us a group at first, and then

524
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: specifically latched onto Marid. He was just constantly drunk. Helma

525
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: Hermans told us she avoided the guest after she claims

526
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 1: he sexually assaulted her in the water. She didn't report

527
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: it at the time. He just went right between my legs.

528
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,320
Speaker 1: He groped me. And I know that there's people that say,

529
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, let me understand that was you speaking to

530
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: another woman that said he groped her vaginally in the

531
00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: pool and she left. It was after that Marie left,

532
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: and I believe that's when she was killed. We don't

533
00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,600
Speaker 1: know if there's been a DNA analysis done or a

534
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: rape kit done. We know nothing. But is this guy,

535
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 1: Frank Nuculo who says he's innocent. Is he a former

536
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 1: club Man employee or was he a guest from Long Island.

537
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 1: We understand that he was a former employee of club

538
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: Med and Abe can discuss that in more detailed, but

539
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 1: he was also a guest at the time of the disappearance.

540
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:18,279
Speaker 1: He was definitely a guest at the resort. He used

541
00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 1: to work there, according to several people, and obviously would

542
00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: know the lay of the land. What about it, Abe?

543
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:28,320
Speaker 1: Did he work there? Is he from Long Island? What

544
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: do we know about this guy? Our private investigator Eddie

545
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:34,400
Speaker 1: down that went down there interviewed several people who confirmed

546
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: that he was a former GEO with Nicolon at Club

547
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: Med where he general operator something of that sort of

548
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 1: general it's a French term, but those people are hired

549
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,439
Speaker 1: to entertain guests, so that was his job a while back,

550
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 1: and multiple people on the island confirmed that, so he

551
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 1: would be familiar with the path that Sarah was talking

552
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 1: about where the body was found with tourists don't normally

553
00:35:01,120 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: go I'm telling you Chris Buyer's former chief of police,

554
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 1: John's Creek, the police force, the medical Examiner's office. The

555
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: motive investigation on these islands is nothing like what we're

556
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: used to in the United States. So when you go there,

557
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: you're signing up for that as well. You just you're

558
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:25,279
Speaker 1: not just getting the all inclusive resort. You're getting the

559
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 1: all inclusive island and that's what comes with it. Absolutely,

560
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 1: they are selling up a thought there of the safety

561
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 1: and serenity, and their number one priority is going to

562
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:38,160
Speaker 1: be protect that at all costs. You're talking about these

563
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 1: islands that have a million visitors every year that come

564
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: to them, and this is their source of income, and

565
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: to me, I would think their first priority would be

566
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: to protect that in that sense of security anyway possible,

567
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:55,240
Speaker 1: because all the way back Chief Buyers to them putting

568
00:35:55,520 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 1: the island police the body was found near Club Mad,

569
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: not on Club Mad property, to kind of extend the

570
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 1: attack away from Club Mad. I mean it started at

571
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 1: the very beginning. Chris. Yeah, absolutely, everything that I've heard

572
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: on the details have unfolded on this, Everything I've heard

573
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: is leading you to that. I mean, there's just no

574
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 1: way around it. As one of the I believe it

575
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 1: was the Sun said it seemed like it was swept

576
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: under the rug. That's exactly what it sounds like to me.

577
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: It's been a shoddy investigation. It wasn't handled properly when

578
00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 1: she was reported missing. Nothing was handled properly when they

579
00:36:33,080 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: reported this guest. This just all leads to just completely

580
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: shoddy investigation from the very beginning. Hey, George, tell me

581
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: about the lawsuit. I mean you can't. Obviously so far

582
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: I've not gotten criminal charges, so there's no satisfaction there

583
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: at Turxy Cacus. What about your civil suit, Well, we

584
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: found a wrongful death action right now, almost about a

585
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: year ago, and what we found is just a delayed

586
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: tactic at the delayed tactic from club and counsel, and

587
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,280
Speaker 1: in factful we've been covered during the course of the litigation.

588
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: Is this corporate shell game where they claim there's six

589
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: different entities that are involved and none of them have

590
00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 1: anything to do with the depth of Marie Kuma. I

591
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 1: think a lot of Americans would be surprised that they're

592
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 1: not really legally ensured if they go down to the resort.

593
00:37:24,800 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: The entity itself has done everything they can to attenuate

594
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: themselves from any problem that they might have on the resort.

595
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:37,239
Speaker 1: Just know that Clubman and Clubmed Turcos denies all of this.

596
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 1: That said Sarah Wallace, I cannot even imagine the husband,

597
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: the family, mom goes away for a girl's getaway. This woman,

598
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 1: I know, yes, I clash with legal aid and public defenders.

599
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: They work like dogs, just like prosecutors. They've got us

600
00:37:57,040 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: in many cases as prosecutors do. And to think she

601
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 1: goes away for a vacation and her family never sees

602
00:38:04,480 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: her again. Where does this thing stand? Why aren't we

603
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: getting any criminal charges? I mean, didn't they let a

604
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 1: large suspect leave the jurisdiction. Well, I think that's the

605
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 1: pain of the family. You know, they just want to

606
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: know the answer. They want to know what happened, and

607
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,400
Speaker 1: they feel from the very beginning that they were stone

608
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 1: walls and that there is still not an active investigation.

609
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,759
Speaker 1: One of the things that we tried to find out,

610
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,480
Speaker 1: and I know that legal team has as well. Were

611
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: there security cameras? We were told different stories. We were

612
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 1: told yes there were working cameras at the gate, but

613
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:45,919
Speaker 1: there were not security cameras within the property. So that's

614
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: another issue that has seemed to have been stone walls.

615
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: Were there or were there not? It's a pretty simple

616
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,520
Speaker 1: question to find out whether or not there was security video. Well,

617
00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: Sarah Wallace, now I know why you have nineteen Emmy awards.

618
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. I mean, it's a fine

619
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: kettle of fish when an investigative reporter like Sarah Wallace

620
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:14,959
Speaker 1: and a lawyer like Abe George can tell us more

621
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: about a homicide than the police can. What about that?

622
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime story, signing

623
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 1: off goodbye friend,