WEBVTT - What is interspecific brood parasitism? 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:12.880 Approximately one percent of all bird species are total jerks. No, 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.720 approximately one percent of all bird species are not seagulls. 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:22.360 They're what are called interspecific brood parasites. And fine, they're 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.560 not really jerks, but evolution has endowed them with a 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:31.400 profoundly jerk like strategy. You see, interspecific brood parasites put 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:35.200 their eggs into the nests of other species, often without 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.640 them knowing it, and to add insult to injury, the 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:43.080 parasitic birds often damage the host nest as well. For example, 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:46.800 just in case the parents of the parasitized nest can count, 0:00:47.200 --> 0:00:50.160 the brood parasite takes one of the host eggs out 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:53.800 of the nest and yeats it overboard. Now the nest 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:56.400 has the same number of eggs as it did before 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.040 the doting parents went out to grab a quick snack, 0:00:59.440 --> 0:01:03.720 but those eggs is not their own, and then the 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:07.760 brood parasite mom typically SCRAMs, leaving the host parents to 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.080 do the difficult job of raising the kids. How did 0:01:11.120 --> 0:01:14.440 this dead beat parenting strategy evolve? And why can't the 0:01:14.520 --> 0:01:17.600 host species seem to figure out what's happening and fight back. 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:22.520 On today's episode, We're going to dig into interspecific brood parasitism, 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:26.120 and I'm going to be absolutely thrilled to be combining 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:31.840 some of my favorite topics, animal behavior and parasitism. Welcome 0:01:31.880 --> 0:01:47.680 to Daniel and Kelly's parasitic Universe. Hi. 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:50.960 I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist, and I have zero 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:52.600 tolerance for parasites. 0:01:52.920 --> 0:01:56.240 Hello. I'm Kelly Waitersmith. I study parasites and space, and 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:58.400 I have all the time in the world for parasites. 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:02.400 Right, Kelly, with then my question for you today is 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.559 how many non human species are there in your brood? 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:09.000 Oh, you're asking me about pets. You've already asked me 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:10.919 about pets. You just found a different way to ask 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:12.680 or I guess you know you need an update, right 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:14.480 because you asked me this a couple of weeks ago, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:16.160 and the number changes regularly. 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:19.840 But now I'm framing them as parasites on Kelly's goodwill. 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.720 Oh, Oh, probably just my dog Biscuit, because she's been 0:02:24.240 --> 0:02:27.160 she's been a real handful lately. But no, she's a 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:29.840 good girl. I've got a goose that's been trying to 0:02:29.840 --> 0:02:32.480 bite me lately. I don't appreciate. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:34.600 That that wasn't in the terms of service you got 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:35.440 when you got the goose. 0:02:35.600 --> 0:02:38.720 Now, yeah, we used to call him Jacques Goostow and 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:41.160 we thought that was really cute. But now we call 0:02:41.240 --> 0:02:45.680 him Schmaltz because we're thinking he might become Christmas dinner 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:50.079 because he has become very aggressive, So just Schmaltz. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:52.640 Wow, what lesson do you think your kids take from 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.400 that sort of change in status based on behavior? 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:01.839 Well, hmm, that's interesting, based on I don't necessarily want 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:04.440 them to take the message that based on behavior these 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.080 things happen. But I am okay with the fact that 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.239 they live on a farm and they need to understand 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:12.280 where their food comes from, although they've insisted that they 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.720 won't eat it. But will I was gonna make a 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:17.840 joke about them going hungry on Christmas, but I wouldn't 0:03:17.840 --> 0:03:18.520 do that to them. 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.480 Well, I think that's a pretty powerful incentive. You know, 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:26.040 behave well or you're not going to be here for dinner. 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:27.400 You're going to be part of dinner. 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:30.800 Yeah, but you know, this isn't an episode on cannibalism, 0:03:30.840 --> 0:03:33.040 so it really doesn't extend to the family eiting. 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.680 We already got the pull out. 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.200 Your bingo cars. But I am under the impression that 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:42.440 all of your pets are cherished family members and that 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:44.280 none of them you would consider parasites. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:47.440 No, none of our pets are parasites. Currently. We have 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:49.360 a dog who lives in our house, and we have 0:03:49.400 --> 0:03:52.160 a horse who doesn't live in our house. But my 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:54.400 daughter Hazel considers part of the family. 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.440 Oh yeah, I do. I I shouldn't. Well, I'm not 0:03:58.440 --> 0:03:59.800 going to go down that. I shouldn't have said anything 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.080 bad about Biscuit. She's been chewing on her feet a 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:04.720 lot lately, but we got to get her to the vet. 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:05.520 That's my fault. 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:07.080 They're doing their best. 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:09.160 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Bescaus, she's a good girl. 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:10.240 She's the best girl. 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:11.200 Yeah yeah yeah. 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:13.640 But today we're not talking about pets we love, who 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.600 we've welcomed intentionally into our family, even if they do 0:04:16.680 --> 0:04:20.400 cross the species barrier. We're talking about something much more sinister, 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:20.960 aren't we. 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:23.799 We are. Actually I should have talked about my livestock 0:04:23.800 --> 0:04:28.040 guardian dog who choose on our goats, because that's that 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:28.839 shouldn't happen. 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.479 That's sort of how the goats feel about that. 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:32.960 They don't they don't love it. Although we've got one 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.440 goat who kind of spaces out when it's happening, and 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:37.919 it doesn't really seem to mind so much because she 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:39.960 really likes food and she's just kind of chewing on 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:44.279 the grass and he's just playing. But anyway, okay, So, yes, 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:46.440 interspecific brood parasitism. 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:52.000 Interspecific is a complicated word. It just means cross species. 0:04:51.520 --> 0:04:55.360 Right, yes, it does. It means yeah, between species. And actually, 0:04:55.480 --> 0:04:58.440 so when you know, when you say interspecific brood parasitism, 0:04:58.480 --> 0:05:00.960 it's fun to watch people try to break the different 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:04.240 pieces down to try to figure out what it means. 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:07.680 And so this is a perfect transition actually to the 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.839 questions that we asked the listeners. So let's go ahead 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:12.880 and see how they broke it down. So I asked 0:05:12.920 --> 0:05:16.360 our listeners who are willing to volunteer to answer questions 0:05:16.360 --> 0:05:21.000 for us, what is interspecific brewed parasitism? And I'd like 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:23.120 to mention here that you're probably not going to hear 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.680 as many voices from women as I would like for 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:27.440 us to be hearing. And so I would like to 0:05:27.560 --> 0:05:31.400 make yet another plea for women to please go ahead 0:05:31.440 --> 0:05:34.040 and answer these questions. It's okay if we don't know 0:05:34.080 --> 0:05:36.359 the answers, or you know, some of us probably do 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:39.040 know the answers. But even if you don't know, add 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:42.440 your voice to the chorus of or you know, just 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.279 go ahead and guess I would like some more women voices. 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:47.720 So anyway, let's go ahead and hear what answers we got. 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:52.119 It is when a animal family builds up a herd 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:54.440 immunity to a certain parasite. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.280 I have no idea, you guys got me. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.839 Look sure where it is, but it sounds like a 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:05.120 parasot that invites the nest and the zombifores the young 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:05.840 ones in there. 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:10.080 I think the bird lays into eggle, moves its egg 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.040 into a different bird's nest, and gets that other bird 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.600 to raise its young, or something like that. 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:16.000 I think. 0:06:16.320 --> 0:06:19.760 I think interspecific brood parasitism is when a parasitic animal 0:06:19.760 --> 0:06:22.200 fools a different animal species into taking care of its 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.520 eggs are offspring. And I only know this because my 0:06:24.640 --> 0:06:27.039 daughters and I watched the PBS Nature documentary on this 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:28.320 subject a couple of years ago. 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:34.000 I think of broods like egg clutches of species relying 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:36.960 on the egg clutches of other species in order to 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:38.000 exist and thrive. 0:06:38.520 --> 0:06:44.479 Probably an interspecies specific parasite or a parasite that goes 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:49.320 after a specific species. But the word brood makes me 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.120 feel like the parasites. 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.479 Are brooding within their. 0:06:54.360 --> 0:07:01.680 Host interspecific parasit a brudhism is a tongue twister and 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:05.000 something to do with I don't even know what a 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:07.760 brood is, like an ipa. 0:07:08.360 --> 0:07:11.520 I think we're talking about animals like cuckoos. I remember 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:13.360 hearing them a lot when I was a child. I'm 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:17.960 thinking there was something a bit ikey about their nesting behavior. However, 0:07:18.000 --> 0:07:20.480 I expect the science here is really interesting. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:24.880 Maybe it's how parasites select for specific characteristics in a 0:07:24.960 --> 0:07:30.000 host population, or maybe even that parasites doing that guide 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:33.360 the evolution of the host population. Either way, I'm sure 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:35.200 Kelly's gonna tell us really excitedly. 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.680 These are great answers, and I'd have to say I 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:41.120 don't think I would do very well either here because 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:45.520 the phrase interspecific to me hits on the specific instead 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.040 of species, and so I'm thinking like interspecific as opposed 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:52.520 to like inter general, Like what does that even mean? 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.040 Interspecific is hard for my brain, and brood is not 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.920 a word I typically use to describe, like people in 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:00.680 my species. Who I'm taken care of. 0:08:01.080 --> 0:08:06.240 Oh, well, you know I went was that an Ohio thing? No, 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:07.880 I guess not. But like, so, you know, when I 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.560 was an undergrad, I thought I was going to go 0:08:10.600 --> 0:08:12.640 to med school, and then I was like, you know what, 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:15.000 I could never deliver to someone the news that like 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.200 their kid didn't make it. That's not for me. Yeah, 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:19.680 And then I decided I was going to go to 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:21.200 VET school, and then I was like, you know what, 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:23.440 I could never deliver to someone the news that their 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.160 dog didn't make it, so like, that's not for me either. 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.960 And then I took an animal behavior class, and I 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:31.200 was like, this is what I'm going to do with 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:32.920 the rest of my life. And then I ended up 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.160 going to grad school for behavioral ecology, which is trying 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:38.959 to understand, you know, why animals do what they do 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:41.720 in the wild. And so that's where I came across 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:43.679 the word brood. And so I do think of, you know, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.240 my children as my brood. But I probably would not 0:08:46.280 --> 0:08:48.360 have thought of that had I not gone to grad 0:08:48.360 --> 0:08:50.240 school for behavioral ecology. 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.600 Because brood to me implies some sort of like dark 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:55.960 Gothic mood, like he stands at the parapet of his castle, 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.280 brooding over his future or something. 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.680 Yes, as a goth kid, I had heard the word 0:09:01.760 --> 0:09:04.040 yes in that way. Yeah. 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:07.200 So this is an especially tricky phrase because each word 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:10.640 on its own has several meetings with very different contexts, 0:09:11.160 --> 0:09:13.440 and so putting them all together in the right order, 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:16.559 it's tricky stuff. So tell us, Kelly, what the heck 0:09:16.760 --> 0:09:19.160 is this? Break it down for us in basic English. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:20.960 Okay, So, first of all, I want to note the 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.080 reason that we are enjoying this amazing topic today is 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.280 because a listener named Daniel saw a New York Times 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:32.520 article on brown headed cowbirds that have this strategy and 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.120 he wanted to know more. So that's what we're going 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:38.960 to talk about today. So, interspecific brood parasitism is when 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:45.280 one organism tricks or coerces a parent of a different 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:48.160 species into caring for their offspring. 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:50.880 So this is not Biscuit being taken care of by you, 0:09:51.080 --> 0:09:54.520 because that's something you did intentionally. Yeah, add Biscuit to 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:55.000 your brood. 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:57.599 That's right. I knew that I was adding Biscuit to 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:01.600 my brood. I love Biscuit very much. I wish she 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:05.240 didn't have allergies. We're working on it. She's great. 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:07.880 What about the fact that dogs are like selected for 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.120 to be cute and to like, you know, pull on 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:15.319 your heart strings and effectively emotionally manipulate their way into 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:16.600 your Does that count? 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:20.040 No, it doesn't. Like you still you're still choosing to join, 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:21.960 you know, and like kids are well, I was gonna 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.760 say kids are cute, but not all kids are cute, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:26.600 but we still love them. 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:28.960 I can't believe you just said that on the record. 0:10:29.000 --> 0:10:30.800 I mean, I totally agree with you. Some kids to 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.960 collect Winston Churchill or Richard Nixon, but I would never 0:10:35.000 --> 0:10:36.440 have said that. Oh my god, I just said it. 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.719 Also, yeah, yeah, yeah, but we love them anyway, right, 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:43.079 you don't have to be cute to be absolutely amazing 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:45.120 and loved. And so the point with parasitism is you're 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.520 essentially being tricked or coerced. And Okay, so we're gonna 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:51.319 start with my favorite example, and almost all examples involve birds, 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:52.760 and so the bird people out there are going to 0:10:52.840 --> 0:10:55.360 be like, how dare you start with an example that's 0:10:55.400 --> 0:10:57.920 not birds? But look at people. The fact of the 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:00.480 matter is, like number one, I'm a parasite person. But 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:03.400 after being a parasite person. I'm a fish person, and 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.640 so it's gonna be a fish example. So we're going 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:09.240 to talk about the cuckoo catfish. All right. So down 0:11:09.240 --> 0:11:12.320 in Africa there are these cicklids and these are the 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:13.559 host species. 0:11:13.800 --> 0:11:15.040 So this is what's a clid. 0:11:15.440 --> 0:11:19.960 A cyclid is a fish, and like Africa is sort 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.880 of famous for their ciclids, these are species that sort 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:26.160 of like radiated. There's loads of different species. A bunch 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:28.400 of evolutionary biolog just go down to Africa to try 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:31.360 to figure out why there's so many different species of 0:11:31.400 --> 0:11:33.920 this kind of fish in Africa and how they've managed 0:11:33.960 --> 0:11:36.439 to like fill all of these different niches. So it's 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:38.960 just a species that you find in lakes in Africa. 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:40.559 Okay, what does it look like? Roughly? 0:11:41.000 --> 0:11:44.760 H it looks like a fish. You may have gone 0:11:44.760 --> 0:11:47.240 to a pet store and you can you've seen convict cyclids, 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.480 Like there's ciclids are a very popular fresh water fish 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.520 species that you can find at pet stores. And this 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:55.160 is like a different species than what you've seen at 0:11:55.160 --> 0:11:57.120 pet stores, but it's got like the same body shape. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:57.520 Okay. 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:02.520 One of them does this amazing thing where they lay 0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:04.920 eggs and then they stick them in their mouths. 0:12:04.559 --> 0:12:06.720 On purpose, on purpose, hold them in their mouth to like, 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:08.560 you know, keep them safe or something. 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:10.240 Yes, they're called mouth brooders. 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:10.880 Whoa. 0:12:10.920 --> 0:12:15.400 And so like these mouth routers they pick up the eggs. 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.000 Not the same as mouth breathers, right, that's a totally 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:18.760 different kind of thing. 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:22.240 That's me when I have a cold. These are mouth ruders, okay. 0:12:22.880 --> 0:12:25.560 And so they pop the eggs in their mouth. The 0:12:25.600 --> 0:12:28.440 eggs hatch and the fish can swim in and out 0:12:28.440 --> 0:12:30.000 of the mouth. And so when the fish want to go, 0:12:30.080 --> 0:12:32.400 like get some food, they'll swim out and they'll like 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.679 eat little things that are in the water. And then 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.120 when a predator comes, they swim into mom's mouth for safety. 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.000 And sometimes Mom will like open her mouth and create 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:43.880 an inflow of water to like, you know, help them 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:45.720 get in when she sees a predator. And so, like 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.360 the mouth is a safe place for these little babies. 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:51.000 And how do they avoid being eaten? Or how does 0:12:51.080 --> 0:12:52.640 mom eat with her babies in her mouth? 0:12:52.800 --> 0:12:55.400 I believe mom ejects the babies when it's time for 0:12:55.440 --> 0:12:58.120 her to eat ice. And so yeah, like, so the babies, 0:12:58.120 --> 0:12:59.959 you know, when they're in the egg stage, she might 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.480 sort of like spit them under a rock for a 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.280 little while and then go and get a snack and 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:09.000 then suck them all back up again. And I'm not 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:10.240 an expert on the mouth bruders. 0:13:10.320 --> 0:13:12.920 It's amazing to me though, that like things other species 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:15.840 do sound gross to me, like spitting your babies under 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:18.560 a rock from your mouth, but things that our species do, 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:21.160 like you know, creating milk from your body and feeding 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.160 it to your baby, that's not gross to me at all. 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:27.119 So it's amazing how your instincts are just like totally parochial. 0:13:27.240 --> 0:13:31.080 Yes, I will note that Zach stayed on the side 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:35.040 of the blanket near my head when labor was happening, 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.960 and so human birth is pretty gross too. 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.520 So well, I guess it depends on the husband, because 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:43.559 when Hazel was being born and Katuna was having a 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:45.840 c section, they were like, please stay on that side, 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:48.080 and I was like, you're opening up my wife to 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.880 pull out my daughter, like I'm gonna watch, and I did, 0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:51.959 and it was fascinating. 0:13:52.040 --> 0:13:54.160 I would have been watching, Yeah, yeah, I would have 0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:56.520 been watching. And then they went to hand Zac the 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.280 umbilical cord and they're like, do you want to cut? 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.400 And he was like, yes, that's what I pay you 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:01.960 guys for. 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:02.520 Yeah. 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.160 No, wipe that thing off and give it to me 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.360 when it's clean. But he was very supportive through the 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:07.640 whole thing. 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.640 Interesting for a man whose office is a disaster that 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.040 he only wants clean things handed to. 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:16.280 Yes. Yes, well we're all still trying to understand the 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:19.840 emotional support Dorito's bag. But anyway, yes, exactly. 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:22.440 All right, So we have this mom who has babies 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.880 and keeps them in her mouth. Yes, and then that's 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:25.360 the host. 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:29.000 That's the host. Yes. And so the parasite is called 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.880 the cuckoo catfish. Who And you know, I think a 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:35.880 lot of us have seen catfishes. They've got those like whiskers, 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:37.280 they move around on the ground. 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.160 This one they're good and sandwiches. 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.920 Hell, sure, sure. This one's kind of tiny. It's like white. 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:47.120 It's got some speckles. That doesn't really matter. The point 0:14:47.200 --> 0:14:48.760 is it's like a tiny catfish. 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:49.280 Okay. 0:14:49.680 --> 0:14:56.440 And so these catfish try to eat the host eggs. Okay. 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.920 So like when the hosts are first laying the eggs, 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:01.280 they have to lay them on the sand before the 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:03.360 mom can get them in her mouth. And so well, 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.240 the eggs are being laid on the sand and getting fertilized. 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:08.680 The catfish are going around and trying to eat them, 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:10.960 and the parents are freaking out and they're trying to 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:12.840 get the catfish to leave, and they're like, go away, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:15.240 go away. And while they're distracted and trying to chase 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.240 the catfish away, the catfish lay some of their own 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.520 eggs in amongst the host eggs. Wow, And so then 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:25.240 the catfish go away, and so the mom is like, okay, fine, 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.320 they're gone, Thank goodness. And of course I'm being super 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:29.400 anthropomorphic here. Who knows what the mom is thinking. It 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:35.000 might just be like, I don't know how smartfish are. 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:37.720 So anyway, the mom eventually goes to acquire all of 0:15:37.760 --> 0:15:39.680 the eggs and she sucks them all up into her mouth, 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:43.720 and she has accumulated her eggs and the eggs of 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:45.480 the parasitic catfish. 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.160 I see. So they're not replaced, they're just in addition. 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:52.280 They're in addition, right. But the catfish eggs hatch first, 0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:55.680 so they're like set to hatch faster, and so the 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.480 catfish eggs hatch before the host eggs hatch. But when 0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:03.080 the host hatch, the catfish are there ready for a snack. 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:07.280 Oh yeah. And so as all the host eggs are hatching, 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:09.840 the catfish are eating them one by one. 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:11.160 Oh my gosh. 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.800 And so in a lot of cases, none of the 0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.880 host babies will survive. They will all become catfish snacks, 0:16:19.400 --> 0:16:22.040 and the parents will spend a significant amount of their 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.200 energy protecting the catfish babies. So the catfish babies will 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:27.880 like leave the mouth. But then when a predator comes, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:32.520 they'll swim towards the you know, the parasitized mom, and 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:34.360 the mom will open her mouth to give them a 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:37.240 place to hide. Because the mom, you know, recognizes anything 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.320 that swims out of her mouth as her offspring, and 0:16:40.360 --> 0:16:41.520 so she has been tricked. 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:45.520 Wow. Crazy, that is crazy. Can I ask you how 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:47.880 I'm supposed to feel about this? Because I have all 0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:50.760 of these emotions. When I watch like nature documentaries, I 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.200 always end up like rooting for one animal. But I 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.280 find that like, if I'm watching the documentary about cheetahs, 0:16:56.520 --> 0:16:58.720 I'm rooting for the cheetah as it chases the antelope. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:02.040 If I'm watching the antelope documentary, I'm rooting for the antelope. 0:17:02.040 --> 0:17:04.040 And I'm like, you, dang, cheetah, what are you doing? 0:17:04.480 --> 0:17:06.639 So what am I supposed to feel here because it 0:17:06.680 --> 0:17:09.000 feels like one of these is getting tricked. It feels unfair. 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:11.119 Yeah, in all cases, you should be rooting for the 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:13.679 tapeworm that lives in all of those animals. But no, 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:20.159 you didn't see it coming. But yeah, I'm nature is 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:24.399 just it's complicated. There's no clear answer, like I you know, 0:17:24.480 --> 0:17:26.719 I feel that way also, like when you know, when 0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:30.080 I'm watching the antelope documentary and the antelope gets away, 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.080 I'm like, oh, you know, I'm happy with that antelope, 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:34.800 but that cheetah maybe had babies that aren't getting fed, 0:17:34.840 --> 0:17:38.200 and nature is you know, it's not Life isn't fair, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.800 especially if you are, you know, living out in the wild. 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:45.639 But I feel like parasitism is especially emotionally fraught. Was 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:47.879 that what attracted you to this field? Or are you 0:17:47.920 --> 0:17:49.439 totally impervious to all of that emotion? 0:17:49.680 --> 0:17:53.480 Oh? Interesting, No, I'm not impervious to the emotion. And like, 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:55.840 you know, especially when it's humans who are getting infected, 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.880 Like I'm totally on board with, yeah, trying to eradicate 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.080 the parasites that are her people, and. 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:03.359 Not just trying to eradicate them, but like feeling angry 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:03.680 at them. 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:06.399 Yes, yeah, feeling angry at them judgmental, yes, But I 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:11.760 also but I still have like a begrudging respect for 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:15.560 for example, a species like what was the speci. John 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.720 Hawden was telling us about a species of parasite that 0:18:17.840 --> 0:18:21.240 is in our body and is able to essentially like 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:25.639 rip proteins off of like our cells and stick it 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.320 on itself and essentially we're like, uh, you know, host 0:18:29.400 --> 0:18:32.880 coat to escape from us. And in our Zombie Fish episode, 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:35.880 we were talking about trematodes that go through snails and 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:38.680 fish and birds, and then they also have a phase 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:41.800 where they're swimming through the water. Like imagine being able 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:44.600 to succeed in environments that are that different. 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:45.520 It's impressive. 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.280 And you've got immune systems that are trying to attack 0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:51.840 you in those different kinds of hosts, Like, that's kind 0:18:51.880 --> 0:18:54.800 of incredible that evolution has come up with solutions in 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.840 all of those different environments. And so I am begrudgingly 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:03.840 impressed with their abilities. And so anyway, I'm amazed with 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:06.920 the solutions evolution has come up with for complicated problems. 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.320 But you know, I don't think that the suffering is 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.119 funny or wonderful, and especially when it's people, but it 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.199 still is kind of amazing. It is amazing unless it's 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:18.359 happening to people, then it's sticks. 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:20.960 Yeah, And I think it's probably misguided to put yourself 0:19:20.960 --> 0:19:23.080 on one side of it or the other, or to 0:19:23.119 --> 0:19:26.320 assert like moral superiority or inferiority to one side of 0:19:26.359 --> 0:19:29.439 these battles, because you know, who knows what these animals 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.800