WEBVTT - Missing in Arizona, with Jon Walczak 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.760 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:09.160 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.200 learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 0:00:12.280 --> 0:00:13.880 production of Iheartrading. 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.720 Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 0:00:29.400 --> 0:00:33.760 Our colleague Noel is on a sensitive operation for IGU. 0:00:34.120 --> 0:00:38.240 They call me Ben. We're joined with our guest super producer, 0:00:38.680 --> 0:00:42.800 Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you. 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:46.440 You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.839 want you to know. Now, Matt, as we're rolling into this, 0:00:50.320 --> 0:00:53.920 we got to say it's a something a little different 0:00:54.120 --> 0:00:58.480 for this evening, because this one is for fans of 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:04.600 not just true not just investigations, but mysteries. 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.600 Right oh yeah, The whole story we're getting into today 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:12.360 is a mystery. Every aspect of it is a mystery. 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:14.679 And we're gonna be speaking with somebody who has created 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.840 It's the third season of a show, Ben that I'm 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:22.119 gonna call you out. You work on and I think 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:27.880 it's a fantastic show. This specific season deals with the case. 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.960 The details are so fine. I've been lost now, I've 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:33.160 been immersed in it for the past forty eight hours. 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:37.839 I can't escape, and I think I know how our 0:01:38.160 --> 0:01:41.559 guest feels now after diving into it so deeply. 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:47.600 Right, we are speaking with the world expert on a 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:52.880 case that remains unsolved in this modern evening. So that's 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:55.400 our cold open, and we're gonna have a quick word 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:57.840 from our sponsors. And we can't wait for you to 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:07.920 meet this guy. And we've returned. We are joined with 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:13.600 the world class investigative journalist, a man who never met 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.400 a rabbit hole that he would not go down. Friends, neighbors, 0:02:18.480 --> 0:02:22.320 conspiracy realist, lend us your ears and help us. Welcome 0:02:22.600 --> 0:02:24.359 the one and only John Wallzac. 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:25.600 Hey. 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:31.880 Guys, Yeah, joining you from the depths of madness with 0:02:31.120 --> 0:02:34.639 my postit notes and my strings and my maps, so 0:02:35.400 --> 0:02:38.200 an undisclosed location. Glad to be with you, guys. 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:42.680 Well, right behind John, I'm seeing a picture of a 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:47.240 certain wanted individual. I believe that individual's name is Robert Fisher, 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:51.720 who is the subject of this season of missing titled 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:54.880 Missing in Arizona. Go check it out right now while 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:57.200 you're well, wait until you're done with this and then 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:00.080 go subscribe, like do that. But John, can you can 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.880 you tell us who is Robert Fisher. Why are you 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:06.440 focusing on this individual for a whole season of missing? 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:09.480 Yeah, so missing in Alaska season one was a plane 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:11.680 that disappeared, missing on nine to eleven, a doctor that 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:13.800 vanished in New York the night before nine to eleven, 0:03:14.240 --> 0:03:16.880 and season three is missing in Arizona about Robert Fisher. 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:21.840 So Robert Fisher killed his family, blew up their house, 0:03:22.000 --> 0:03:25.160 and then escaped into the wilderness in Arizona. He abandoned 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.160 his wife's SSUV in the remote forest in the mountains, 0:03:28.240 --> 0:03:30.680 and for ten days they didn't know where he was. 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.320 There was this man hunt. They found the wife's SUV, 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:38.920 the Forerunner, near caves near an Indian reservation. So the 0:03:38.920 --> 0:03:41.880 big question is did Robert Fisher die in the wilderness? 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:42.760 Did he escape? 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.760 Their clues everywhere, And I think what makes it really 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.040 fascinating to me personally is obviously it's an unsolved mystery. 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:52.480 Part of it is the landscape of the American West, 0:03:52.600 --> 0:03:56.840 So it's an adventure to go into the mountains, to 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.120 go hunting for a hermit's cabin, to go splunking in 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.520 underground caves, which we do in next week's episode. And 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:06.480 I think that that's part of the appeal. The other 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.720 thing is because it happened in April two thousand and one, 0:04:10.080 --> 0:04:12.760 it was right before nine to eleven. It was before 0:04:12.800 --> 0:04:15.280 social media, it was before smartphones. And so one of 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:18.840 the things that we talk about is we really lack 0:04:18.920 --> 0:04:22.599 what I call these mono mysteries, these great mysteries that 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:25.719 unite us, and there's so few of them these days. 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.000 That we look to the past and it was almost 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:29.560 like you can look at two thousand and one in 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:32.039 the early two thousands, that's kind of the end of 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.919 these mysteries. So this is one of the great final 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:37.160 mysteries of the pre digital age. 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.920 Yeah, oh well. Put Also, we've got to point out 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:45.760 there is something you said that really really resonates, at 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:51.479 least with me, the idea of mono mystery and the 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.560 idea of the Great West, because, as we say so 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.200 often on this show, a lot of times people forget 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:04.880 just how wide and wild the interior of the United 0:05:04.920 --> 0:05:08.359 States is before we dive in. I do want to 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:11.719 point out that you've worked on this show in concert 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:16.799 with our comrade Paul Mission Control decand when you all 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.240 are exploring this stuff, you're not just you know, on 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.400 a browser on an Internet you guys are out there 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:32.479 pounding sand, you're out there actually exploring caverns. Could you 0:05:32.760 --> 0:05:35.800 tell us maybe One of the first questions here is 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:42.720 the following, was it easier for people to disappear in 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.680 this time in April of two thousand and one. 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:47.880 Yeah, So that's one of the big questions, is, well, 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.720 if Robert Fisher did escape, I think he's alive, clear 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:55.200 about that, And I've spoken with most of the investigators. 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.960 They also think he's alive. So our goal is to 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:00.960 find Robert Fisher with this show. And you know, some 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.760 of the pushback that we get is, well, how could 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:07.240 he remain hidden for twenty three years? I think if 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:09.560 he disappeared in twenty twenty four or maybe not, but 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:11.800 in April two thousand and one, it was just a 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.520 different time. And so I mean, I was, I was twelve, 0:06:15.279 --> 0:06:20.159 so I'm rapidly aging, but I was. I have a 0:06:20.160 --> 0:06:21.200 little bit of memory of. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:22.600 That that pre nine to eleven world. 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:25.880 And you know, I think especially for like gen z To, 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:28.360 they have never lived in a world where you could 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.440 walk up to it a gated an airport, for example. 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:33.760 So one of the things with this show that I've 0:06:33.760 --> 0:06:37.279 found really fascinating. I have a book sitting right behind 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:41.799 me called Hide Your Assets and Disappear, Hide Your Assets 0:06:41.800 --> 0:06:45.159 and Disappear, and it was it was a best selling book, 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.520 and I think nineteen ninety nine, two thousand, So you know, 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.760 I think it was possible that Robert Fisher got out. 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:52.359 In the nick of time. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:55.720 I call it kind of the fugitive sweet spot, the 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.560 fugitive donut hole where he got lucky and he escaped 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:02.880 right before Facebook, right before the iPhone, right before nine 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.159 to eleven, and is still on the lamb. 0:07:06.920 --> 0:07:07.320 Wow. 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:08.560 Okay. 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:10.320 One of the things we talked about in this show 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.560 a lot is that someone is presumed innocent until they're 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.920 found guilty. Right when you've got a missing person like 0:07:16.960 --> 0:07:20.160 this and there's a stack of evidence against you, that's 0:07:20.200 --> 0:07:25.240 a weird gray area for me cognitively, right, because unless 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:28.400 it's proven in a court of law that he's guilty, 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.120 then I kind of have to personally at least keep 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:34.720 an open mind to like, did he actually do this? 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:37.280 One of the things you do is you look at 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:39.120 that stack of evidence and you go through it with 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:42.760 a fine toothed comb in your mind. What are the 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:47.520 biggest pieces of evidence that say Robert definitely killed his 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.160 family and escaped. 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:51.119 So yeah. 0:07:51.160 --> 0:07:53.320 So one of the things that I do is I'm 0:07:53.640 --> 0:07:56.480 like you guys, I am a truth based person. It's 0:07:56.480 --> 0:08:01.120 fun to look at these things, and sometimes conspiracies play out, 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:04.600 and sometimes the police are law enforcement, they kind of 0:08:04.640 --> 0:08:07.040 want to minimize information because they want to stick to 0:08:07.040 --> 0:08:07.840 a simple narrative. 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:10.040 So I just go wherever the narrative leads me. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.200 And as far as Robert Fisher, I think, for example, 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:16.400 the police have said for years that there were poor 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.200 patterns indicating that he used a liquid accelerant to help 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.280 burn down his house. And one of the things that 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:24.960 we looked at is poor patterns, as junk science say, 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:26.480 it doesn't actually prove anything. 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:30.320 Oh and just for all of us tonight, what is 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.760 a poor pattern? Defined as PO you are? 0:08:34.120 --> 0:08:37.160 Yeah, thank you, po you are pattern? 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:40.280 So it basically, if you're looking if I were to 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.640 burn down the house I'm in right now, and you're 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:45.400 looking at the rubble, and you see patterns where it 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.040 looks like I dumped a gasoline and then walked walked 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.600 backward out of the door, it would look like I 0:08:51.679 --> 0:08:55.440 had dumped a liquid accelerant. And in this instance, because 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.040 it was something that happened in a weekday, late at night. 0:08:58.559 --> 0:09:00.880 If there were a liquid accel aren't used, it would 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:03.520 indicate premeditation, and that kind of starts to give us 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.520 clues about who actually pulled off this crime. That it 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.559 wasn't some random person walking by the home. In this case, 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:14.040 it's actually junk science. So I looked very critically at 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.559 I believe Robert Fisher committed these crimes, but there were 0:09:17.600 --> 0:09:21.520 people that should have been looked at more closely that weren't. So, 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:24.079 for example, I look at the neighbors. When I ask 0:09:24.200 --> 0:09:28.120 everybody who was feuding with the Fishers, everybody said the neighbors. 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:32.360 The neighbors were kind of strange, and they said things 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.360 that the police don't believe. They said things that the 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:40.720 police lean on. I also, I spoke to this episode 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:43.320 we just ran this week a co worker of Roberts 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:46.240 who was a very close female friend of his, who 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:48.000 told me that there was a heavy rumor he was 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:50.440 having an affair with a certain coworker in the nineties 0:09:50.920 --> 0:09:54.160 and that her husband at the time would call and 0:09:54.280 --> 0:09:58.240 leave threatening messages. And I don't think law enforcement ever 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:01.120 looked at him. So while I think Robert Fischer committed 0:10:01.160 --> 0:10:04.520 these crimes. I always keep an open mind and run 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:06.040 it down and then you know, one of the great 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.199 hopes is that people hear that and then come forward 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:09.320 with other information. 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:10.520 Wow. 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:13.240 Oh man, Ben, I don't want to jump the gun, 0:10:13.240 --> 0:10:14.680 and John, I don't want to jump the gun. But 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.520 I wanted to talk about Ashley and her story of 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.320 the affair because yeah, it's it's. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:20.960 Burning in my mind. 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:24.320 I just listened to episode six and it is one 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:28.239 of those it's an idea that I think is infectious. 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:30.520 So it went into my mind. Okay, maybe he was 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:33.319 having an affair. Maybe was there was a jealous husband 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.199 out there that wanted, you know, bad things to happen 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:41.439 to him, And that would be a pretty big suspect 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:44.760 in my mind. If you wanted to destroy Robert's life, 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:47.680 fully you do what happened, right. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.480 And this is something Matt and I were talking about offline. 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.600 This was the this was the oh snap moment. 0:10:55.040 --> 0:10:58.640 Yeah, well, just because I didn't I didn't know that 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.440 there was someone out there like that, right, like a 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:07.200 potential nemesis for Robert Fisher, and it just we haven't 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.760 even really like gotten into the details. You do in 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:14.000 great depth in your show. But just how horrifying these 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.840 deaths were. Maybe just a quick trigger warning, Can we 0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:21.520 just let people understand what occurred inside the house even 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:22.360 before the fire? 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:27.920 Great? Yeah, great point, So trigger warning disclaimer everyone. The 0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:35.040 following conversation will include graphic and accurate descriptions of horrific events. 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:39.760 This is your warning. Three two one over to you, John. 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.600 Yeah. So, eight forty two am April tenth, two. 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.360 Thousand and one. The house explodes. Is this little ranch 0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:50.199 in Scottsdale, Arizona. It is a fireball into the sky. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.760 Obviously nobody's expecting it. Please show up and they find 0:11:53.760 --> 0:11:56.960 three bodies in the wreckage of the house, a wife 0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.959 and two kids, and all. 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:02.960 Three three of them had their throats cut and. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.360 Mary, the wife, also was shot in the head one 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:10.320 single time with a bullet. So and then whoever killed them, 0:12:10.320 --> 0:12:13.160 whoever set the house to blow up, They basically left 0:12:13.160 --> 0:12:16.360 the natural gas going from the furnace, set some kind 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:18.880 of trigger which we think probably was a candle, and 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:21.640 then maybe a few hours later, the house exploded. So 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.440 the cops and the firefighters show up. They find these 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.400 charred bodies, but they realized immediately that something's wrong. Because 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:32.360 they're mostly in like fetal positions, like they're sleeping, and 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.240 in other cases like this, obviously if there's a fire, 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:37.439 you're going to at least try to escape. You're not 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.160 going to be found in bed. So they immediately know 0:12:40.240 --> 0:12:44.160 that they're dealing with a triple homicide, and their initial 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:47.640 strategy is to not name Robert Fisher's suspect, to kind 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:50.240 of hope that he just shows up and says, hey, guys, 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.520 like I was out camping, what happened? And he doesn't 0:12:53.520 --> 0:12:57.040 show up. So that strategy was controversial and failed, but 0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:58.040 I understand. 0:12:57.640 --> 0:12:59.199 Why they they went with it. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:01.800 But you know, one of the fascinating things about this case, 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:05.240 and we go into detail, is there is no forensic 0:13:05.280 --> 0:13:08.800 evidence proving that Robert Fisher committed these crimes. There is 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.079 a lot of circumstantial evidence, and so you ask, well, 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:12.439 why do. 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:13.199 I think he did it? 0:13:13.240 --> 0:13:15.959 Well, one of the key small details, and this is 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.920 why I get so much so into the weeds, but 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.120 I also like to give all these details to the 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:23.440 audience and let let them kind of come to their 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:27.040 own conclusions. But one of the small details that really 0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:30.720 matters is where Mary Fisher's SUV was abandoned. It was 0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:33.480 a spot in the forest that Robert Fisher and his 0:13:33.559 --> 0:13:36.839 family were supposed to go camping several days later. It 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:37.600 was a spot that. 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:38.280 He knew well. 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:40.959 And so you have to ask yourself, well, let's say 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:43.880 it was an external party, they would have had to 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:47.520 know somehow that he knew this exact spot, so you 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.480 could you could start getting into theories about, oh, maybe 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:54.120 somebody took him at gunpoint, and it doesn't make as 0:13:54.200 --> 0:13:56.040 much sense to me as that he just did it. 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:59.679 But I've heard from from everybody, including people that really 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:02.319 knew that Fisher as well, and including from law enforcement 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.440 that they've they've you know Ashley for example, who we 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:08.560 just spoke to in this last episode, she gave us 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:12.560 some important new information she she spoke to me about 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:13.320 like the idea. 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:13.760 Of a cartel. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.360 So you know it is it is a spectacle, like 0:14:18.400 --> 0:14:21.360 I say it in the show. But you have three 0:14:21.800 --> 0:14:25.880 throats cut, you have a suburban home that explodes, you 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:30.360 have a fugitive who vanishes in the wilderness near a 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:35.480 cave caves. It's it's really I see it and came 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.400 to see it as this classic Western sort of this 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:42.120 like neo Gothic Western story that takes place in two 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:47.520 thousand and one in Arizona against this very like harsh landscape, 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:49.760 not of the desert, but of the high country in 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:51.040 the mountains of Arizona. 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:53.920 And with that, we're gonna take a quick break, but 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.120 we'll be right back for more with John. 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:06.680 And we've returned with this. There's something that I think 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:11.480 is on a lot of people's minds with cases like this, 0:15:11.800 --> 0:15:15.000 right that occur in how did you put it, the 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:19.840 donut hole, right of the possibility of disappearance. One of 0:15:19.880 --> 0:15:23.480 the one of the things that continually stands out in 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:29.040 cases like this is always going to be the function 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:33.760 of law enforcement, which I know is a sensitive topic. However, 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:40.360 given the resources available at the time for the investigators, 0:15:40.800 --> 0:15:44.320 do you think it is possible that they have they 0:15:44.400 --> 0:15:50.800 maybe missed some aspects of the investigation to Matt's earlier point, 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.040 for instance, about people worth looking at. 0:15:53.640 --> 0:15:56.200 Yeah, absolutely, and I know that for a fact because 0:15:56.240 --> 0:16:00.000 we found those people. So that is I love the investment, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.320 the negative part of this that is really my passion. 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.120 The writing can be painful, and the audio and the 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.960 storytelling are fun, but I love investigating and I really, 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.280 really really get heavily into the investigation, and so does 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.080 our team. Ben's been involved in that, and then Paul 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:19.200 Deckett was involved in that as well. And yeah, so 0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:23.960 for example, we find two new witnesses who changed the 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:28.160 timeline of the case, who see Mary Fisher's SUV after 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:30.480 what we've been told for twenty three years is the 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.720 final sighting. That really matters because it means there was 0:16:33.760 --> 0:16:37.440 a much shorter window during which Robert Fisher could have disappeared. 0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:42.480 We find forensic experts that haven't spoken before, at least 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:45.640 the press. We found witnesses and family friends and co 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:49.640 workers who haven't spoken to even law enforcement. So I 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.080 find it fascinating about these cases. This is a high 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:55.720 profile case. Robert Fisher was on the FBI's ten most 0:16:55.720 --> 0:16:58.680 wanted list for nineteen years. When I come onto a 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:00.760 case like this, I wonder what we Why am I 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:05.199 doing this? Why am I investigating this? Obviously you know 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:07.840 the FBI and the police must have found everything. Right, Well, 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.520 the answer is no, and that is why I love 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.920 doing this, because it's exhausting. But then the one out 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.080 of ninety nine people, they actually have new information that 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:19.680 you've never heard before. So we speak to those people 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.760 throughout the show and even as we work toward an 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:26.640 ending for the show, and I'm clear we haven't found 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:29.080 Robert Fisher yet. I really want to find him, and 0:17:29.080 --> 0:17:30.760 that is a big hope of mine with the audience 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.919 that we're getting, that we find Robert Fisher. But throughout 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:36.560 the show, you're going to hear from new people. And 0:17:36.960 --> 0:17:39.680 I know law enforcement is listening to the show as well, 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:44.640 and they are learning about people because I'm in contact 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.280 with the spokes and they've never spoken to the cops 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:50.359 or the FBI before. So my hope is I have 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:55.080 an interesting relationship with law enforcement. I really really respect 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.600 some of them. Some of these guys really care about 0:17:57.600 --> 0:18:02.800 this case. Bob Caldwell, FBI, Hugh Lockerby Scottsdale, TJ. Jurand Scottsdale, 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:06.640 very smart, capable guys who care. And then I also 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:08.560 am clear, like I get to just focus on this 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:11.600 full time. But if they really want to solve this, 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:13.600 and I believe they do, there are certain things that 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:14.760 I think they can do. 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:16.720 That I kind of want to light a fire to 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:17.520 push them to do. 0:18:17.720 --> 0:18:20.680 So I lay out, well what can be done forensically, 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:23.439 So for example, as of last summer, they had not 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.960 used like open source like jed match, like DNA databases 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:30.800 to say, well, one thing that I speak to experts 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.960 on familicide and domestic violence, they say, if Fisher did escape, 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:37.440 he could have another family. At this point, he could 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.959 have adult children. So what if one of their adult 0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:43.760 kids uploaded their DNA and wanted to learn about their ancestry. 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.639 And then it's like, okay, well, you know, that seems 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.000 kind of far fetched. But one of the things that 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:51.439 I talked to the law enforcement about that as of 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.360 last summer they had not done, is to look at 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.000 open source DNA databases like jed match, to say, well, 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.120 Robert Fisher could have a new family, and if he does, 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.439 maybe he has a kid who uploaded their DNA and 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:06.800 wants to learn about their ancestry. And then it's like, okay, 0:19:06.800 --> 0:19:10.000 well this is a little weird. I didn't know I 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.320 had family members in Arizona. So I think, you know, 0:19:13.359 --> 0:19:16.400 twenty three years later, it is still possible to solve 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.639 this case. There are forensic things that law enforcement can do. 0:19:20.320 --> 0:19:22.199 I wish I could do them. Sometimes I try to 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:26.880 do them, and I fail occasionally, But you know, one 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.440 of my goals is to kind of walk this line 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.240 with law enforcement of respect for the work that they've done, 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:34.200 but also to kind of light a fire and say, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.879 you know, my allegiance are to the people involved in 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.840 this case first and foremost, and they really want to 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:46.880 get this thing solved. So I you know, people say, well, 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.480 is this realistic? Like this guy's been gone for twenty 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.720 three years, you know, like, let's be real, You're not 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:53.479 going to find him. 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:54.240 TJ. 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.520 Juran is one of the detectives of the case. He 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.960 calls this the John List of our generation, and I 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.880 agree with him. And John List was somebody who killed 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.199 his family in New Jersey in the early seventies, was 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:06.760 on the land for eighteen years, was featured on America's 0:20:06.760 --> 0:20:09.120 Most Wanted, and then he was living a new life. 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.679 He had remarried, his wife obviously didn't know who he was. 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:15.199 And I think that there are also just other forensic 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:18.080 and tech sides of things that we can do to 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:21.520 move the case forward. And I know, you guys, we'll 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:22.359 probably get into that. 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:22.879 Yeah. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:27.359 Yeah. This brings us three paths that are mission critical 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:30.639 to the show. The technology piece that I think we 0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:34.280 I think we have to get into that at some point. 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:40.440 But to your point about the forensic aspects here, one 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:43.000 of the questions that I know a lot of people 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:49.000 are having are going to be immediately concerned with the car, right, 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:51.640 isn't a car traceable to some extent? I mean, Matt, 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:52.920 what do you think it through there? 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.720 Oh, well, the suv was recovered. I just listened to 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:02.040 the whole segment where it was the veterinary technicians who 0:21:02.160 --> 0:21:05.199 are the vets who like helped capture Blue, which was 0:21:05.200 --> 0:21:07.640 the family dog, and using donuts by the way, which 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:14.560 we're mentioned already in the show. But I've been pretty 0:21:14.680 --> 0:21:17.080 in my mind have been a little focused on the 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.600 suv because I just listened to episode two again where 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:25.280 you discuss the vehicle shuffle where there are two vehicles involved. 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:29.159 There's a pickup truck which is owned by Robert and 0:21:29.200 --> 0:21:31.880 then an suv which is owned by Mary, his wife 0:21:32.400 --> 0:21:36.720 or that it's their cars, right, And on the night 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.680 that everything went down, there's a witness who or several 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:43.399 witnesses they like saw those vehicles being moved in and 0:21:43.400 --> 0:21:45.719 out of the carport right or out toward the street 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.679 because they lived in a cul de sac where if 0:21:48.720 --> 0:21:50.360 you've got you know, you've got neighbors around a cul 0:21:50.359 --> 0:21:54.080 de sac, they noticed that kind of thing sometimes. What 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:57.520 my big question about suv was, well, they're a couple. 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.600 But the first one is did any witnesses actually see 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:06.000