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Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is

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Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A

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Speaker 1: production of Iheartrading.

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Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt.

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Speaker 3: Our colleague Noel is on a sensitive operation for IGU.

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Speaker 3: They call me Ben. We're joined with our guest super producer,

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Speaker 3: Dylan the Tennessee pal Fagan. Most importantly, you are you.

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Speaker 3: You are here. That makes this the stuff they don't

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Speaker 3: want you to know. Now, Matt, as we're rolling into this,

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Speaker 3: we got to say it's a something a little different

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Speaker 3: for this evening, because this one is for fans of

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Speaker 3: not just true not just investigations, but mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Right oh yeah, The whole story we're getting into today

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Speaker 2: is a mystery. Every aspect of it is a mystery.

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Speaker 2: And we're gonna be speaking with somebody who has created

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Speaker 2: It's the third season of a show, Ben that I'm

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Speaker 2: gonna call you out. You work on and I think

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Speaker 2: it's a fantastic show. This specific season deals with the case.

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Speaker 2: The details are so fine. I've been lost now, I've

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Speaker 2: been immersed in it for the past forty eight hours.

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Speaker 2: I can't escape, and I think I know how our

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Speaker 2: guest feels now after diving into it so deeply.

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Speaker 3: Right, we are speaking with the world expert on a

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Speaker 3: case that remains unsolved in this modern evening. So that's

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Speaker 3: our cold open, and we're gonna have a quick word

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Speaker 3: from our sponsors. And we can't wait for you to

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Speaker 3: meet this guy. And we've returned. We are joined with

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Speaker 3: the world class investigative journalist, a man who never met

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Speaker 3: a rabbit hole that he would not go down. Friends, neighbors,

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Speaker 3: conspiracy realist, lend us your ears and help us. Welcome

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Speaker 3: the one and only John Wallzac.

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Speaker 4: Hey.

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Speaker 5: Guys, Yeah, joining you from the depths of madness with

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Speaker 5: my postit notes and my strings and my maps, so

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Speaker 5: an undisclosed location. Glad to be with you, guys.

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Speaker 2: Well, right behind John, I'm seeing a picture of a

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Speaker 2: certain wanted individual. I believe that individual's name is Robert Fisher,

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Speaker 2: who is the subject of this season of missing titled

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Speaker 2: Missing in Arizona. Go check it out right now while

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Speaker 2: you're well, wait until you're done with this and then

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Speaker 2: go subscribe, like do that. But John, can you can

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Speaker 2: you tell us who is Robert Fisher. Why are you

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Speaker 2: focusing on this individual for a whole season of missing?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so missing in Alaska season one was a plane

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Speaker 5: that disappeared, missing on nine to eleven, a doctor that

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Speaker 5: vanished in New York the night before nine to eleven,

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Speaker 5: and season three is missing in Arizona about Robert Fisher.

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Speaker 5: So Robert Fisher killed his family, blew up their house,

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Speaker 5: and then escaped into the wilderness in Arizona. He abandoned

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Speaker 5: his wife's SSUV in the remote forest in the mountains,

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Speaker 5: and for ten days they didn't know where he was.

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Speaker 5: There was this man hunt. They found the wife's SUV,

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Speaker 5: the Forerunner, near caves near an Indian reservation. So the

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Speaker 5: big question is did Robert Fisher die in the wilderness?

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Speaker 4: Did he escape?

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Speaker 5: Their clues everywhere, And I think what makes it really

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Speaker 5: fascinating to me personally is obviously it's an unsolved mystery.

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Speaker 5: Part of it is the landscape of the American West,

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Speaker 5: So it's an adventure to go into the mountains, to

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Speaker 5: go hunting for a hermit's cabin, to go splunking in

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Speaker 5: underground caves, which we do in next week's episode. And

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Speaker 5: I think that that's part of the appeal. The other

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Speaker 5: thing is because it happened in April two thousand and one,

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Speaker 5: it was right before nine to eleven. It was before

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Speaker 5: social media, it was before smartphones. And so one of

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Speaker 5: the things that we talk about is we really lack

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Speaker 5: what I call these mono mysteries, these great mysteries that

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Speaker 5: unite us, and there's so few of them these days.

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Speaker 5: That we look to the past and it was almost

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Speaker 5: like you can look at two thousand and one in

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Speaker 5: the early two thousands, that's kind of the end of

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Speaker 5: these mysteries. So this is one of the great final

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Speaker 5: mysteries of the pre digital age.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, oh well. Put Also, we've got to point out

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Speaker 3: there is something you said that really really resonates, at

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Speaker 3: least with me, the idea of mono mystery and the

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Speaker 3: idea of the Great West, because, as we say so

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Speaker 3: often on this show, a lot of times people forget

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Speaker 3: just how wide and wild the interior of the United

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Speaker 3: States is before we dive in. I do want to

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Speaker 3: point out that you've worked on this show in concert

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Speaker 3: with our comrade Paul Mission Control decand when you all

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Speaker 3: are exploring this stuff, you're not just you know, on

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Speaker 3: a browser on an Internet you guys are out there

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Speaker 3: pounding sand, you're out there actually exploring caverns. Could you

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Speaker 3: tell us maybe One of the first questions here is

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Speaker 3: the following, was it easier for people to disappear in

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Speaker 3: this time in April of two thousand and one.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So that's one of the big questions, is, well,

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Speaker 5: if Robert Fisher did escape, I think he's alive, clear

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Speaker 5: about that, And I've spoken with most of the investigators.

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Speaker 5: They also think he's alive. So our goal is to

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Speaker 5: find Robert Fisher with this show. And you know, some

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Speaker 5: of the pushback that we get is, well, how could

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Speaker 5: he remain hidden for twenty three years? I think if

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Speaker 5: he disappeared in twenty twenty four or maybe not, but

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Speaker 5: in April two thousand and one, it was just a

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Speaker 5: different time. And so I mean, I was, I was twelve,

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Speaker 5: so I'm rapidly aging, but I was. I have a

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Speaker 5: little bit of memory of.

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Speaker 4: That that pre nine to eleven world.

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Speaker 5: And you know, I think especially for like gen z To,

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Speaker 5: they have never lived in a world where you could

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Speaker 5: walk up to it a gated an airport, for example.

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Speaker 5: So one of the things with this show that I've

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Speaker 5: found really fascinating. I have a book sitting right behind

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Speaker 5: me called Hide Your Assets and Disappear, Hide Your Assets

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Speaker 5: and Disappear, and it was it was a best selling book,

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Speaker 5: and I think nineteen ninety nine, two thousand, So you know,

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Speaker 5: I think it was possible that Robert Fisher got out.

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Speaker 4: In the nick of time.

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Speaker 5: I call it kind of the fugitive sweet spot, the

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Speaker 5: fugitive donut hole where he got lucky and he escaped

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Speaker 5: right before Facebook, right before the iPhone, right before nine

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Speaker 5: to eleven, and is still on the lamb.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 2: One of the things we talked about in this show

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Speaker 2: a lot is that someone is presumed innocent until they're

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Speaker 2: found guilty. Right when you've got a missing person like

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Speaker 2: this and there's a stack of evidence against you, that's

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Speaker 2: a weird gray area for me cognitively, right, because unless

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Speaker 2: it's proven in a court of law that he's guilty,

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Speaker 2: then I kind of have to personally at least keep

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Speaker 2: an open mind to like, did he actually do this?

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Speaker 2: One of the things you do is you look at

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Speaker 2: that stack of evidence and you go through it with

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Speaker 2: a fine toothed comb in your mind. What are the

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Speaker 2: biggest pieces of evidence that say Robert definitely killed his

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Speaker 2: family and escaped.

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Speaker 4: So yeah.

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Speaker 5: So one of the things that I do is I'm

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Speaker 5: like you guys, I am a truth based person. It's

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Speaker 5: fun to look at these things, and sometimes conspiracies play out,

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Speaker 5: and sometimes the police are law enforcement, they kind of

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Speaker 5: want to minimize information because they want to stick to

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Speaker 5: a simple narrative.

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Speaker 4: So I just go wherever the narrative leads me.

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Speaker 5: And as far as Robert Fisher, I think, for example,

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Speaker 5: the police have said for years that there were poor

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Speaker 5: patterns indicating that he used a liquid accelerant to help

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Speaker 5: burn down his house. And one of the things that

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Speaker 5: we looked at is poor patterns, as junk science say,

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Speaker 5: it doesn't actually prove anything.

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Speaker 3: Oh and just for all of us tonight, what is

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Speaker 3: a poor pattern? Defined as PO you are?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you, po you are pattern?

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Speaker 5: So it basically, if you're looking if I were to

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Speaker 5: burn down the house I'm in right now, and you're

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Speaker 5: looking at the rubble, and you see patterns where it

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Speaker 5: looks like I dumped a gasoline and then walked walked

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Speaker 5: backward out of the door, it would look like I

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Speaker 5: had dumped a liquid accelerant. And in this instance, because

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Speaker 5: it was something that happened in a weekday, late at night.

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Speaker 5: If there were a liquid accel aren't used, it would

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Speaker 5: indicate premeditation, and that kind of starts to give us

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Speaker 5: clues about who actually pulled off this crime. That it

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Speaker 5: wasn't some random person walking by the home. In this case,

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Speaker 5: it's actually junk science. So I looked very critically at

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Speaker 5: I believe Robert Fisher committed these crimes, but there were

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Speaker 5: people that should have been looked at more closely that weren't. So,

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Speaker 5: for example, I look at the neighbors. When I ask

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Speaker 5: everybody who was feuding with the Fishers, everybody said the neighbors.

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Speaker 5: The neighbors were kind of strange, and they said things

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Speaker 5: that the police don't believe. They said things that the

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Speaker 5: police lean on. I also, I spoke to this episode

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Speaker 5: we just ran this week a co worker of Roberts

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Speaker 5: who was a very close female friend of his, who

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Speaker 5: told me that there was a heavy rumor he was

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Speaker 5: having an affair with a certain coworker in the nineties

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Speaker 5: and that her husband at the time would call and

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Speaker 5: leave threatening messages. And I don't think law enforcement ever

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Speaker 5: looked at him. So while I think Robert Fischer committed

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Speaker 5: these crimes. I always keep an open mind and run

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Speaker 5: it down and then you know, one of the great

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Speaker 5: hopes is that people hear that and then come forward

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Speaker 5: with other information.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, Ben, I don't want to jump the gun,

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Speaker 2: and John, I don't want to jump the gun. But

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Speaker 2: I wanted to talk about Ashley and her story of

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Speaker 2: the affair because yeah, it's it's.

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Speaker 4: Burning in my mind.

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Speaker 2: I just listened to episode six and it is one

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Speaker 2: of those it's an idea that I think is infectious.

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Speaker 2: So it went into my mind. Okay, maybe he was

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Speaker 2: having an affair. Maybe was there was a jealous husband

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Speaker 2: out there that wanted, you know, bad things to happen

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Speaker 2: to him, And that would be a pretty big suspect

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Speaker 2: in my mind. If you wanted to destroy Robert's life,

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Speaker 2: fully you do what happened, right.

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Speaker 3: And this is something Matt and I were talking about offline.

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Speaker 3: This was the this was the oh snap moment.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, just because I didn't I didn't know that

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Speaker 2: there was someone out there like that, right, like a

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Speaker 2: potential nemesis for Robert Fisher, and it just we haven't

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Speaker 2: even really like gotten into the details. You do in

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Speaker 2: great depth in your show. But just how horrifying these

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Speaker 2: deaths were. Maybe just a quick trigger warning, Can we

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Speaker 2: just let people understand what occurred inside the house even

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Speaker 2: before the fire?

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Speaker 3: Great? Yeah, great point, So trigger warning disclaimer everyone. The

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Speaker 3: following conversation will include graphic and accurate descriptions of horrific events.

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Speaker 3: This is your warning. Three two one over to you, John.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So, eight forty two am April tenth, two.

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Speaker 5: Thousand and one. The house explodes. Is this little ranch

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Speaker 5: in Scottsdale, Arizona. It is a fireball into the sky.

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Speaker 5: Obviously nobody's expecting it. Please show up and they find

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Speaker 5: three bodies in the wreckage of the house, a wife

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Speaker 5: and two kids, and all.

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Speaker 4: Three three of them had their throats cut and.

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Speaker 5: Mary, the wife, also was shot in the head one

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Speaker 5: single time with a bullet. So and then whoever killed them,

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Speaker 5: whoever set the house to blow up, They basically left

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Speaker 5: the natural gas going from the furnace, set some kind

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Speaker 5: of trigger which we think probably was a candle, and

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Speaker 5: then maybe a few hours later, the house exploded. So

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Speaker 5: the cops and the firefighters show up. They find these

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Speaker 5: charred bodies, but they realized immediately that something's wrong. Because

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Speaker 5: they're mostly in like fetal positions, like they're sleeping, and

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Speaker 5: in other cases like this, obviously if there's a fire,

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Speaker 5: you're going to at least try to escape. You're not

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Speaker 5: going to be found in bed. So they immediately know

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Speaker 5: that they're dealing with a triple homicide, and their initial

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Speaker 5: strategy is to not name Robert Fisher's suspect, to kind

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Speaker 5: of hope that he just shows up and says, hey, guys,

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Speaker 5: like I was out camping, what happened? And he doesn't

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Speaker 5: show up. So that strategy was controversial and failed, but

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Speaker 5: I understand.

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Speaker 4: Why they they went with it.

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Speaker 5: But you know, one of the fascinating things about this case,

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Speaker 5: and we go into detail, is there is no forensic

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Speaker 5: evidence proving that Robert Fisher committed these crimes. There is

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Speaker 5: a lot of circumstantial evidence, and so you ask, well,

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Speaker 5: why do.

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Speaker 4: I think he did it?

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Speaker 5: Well, one of the key small details, and this is

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Speaker 5: why I get so much so into the weeds, but

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Speaker 5: I also like to give all these details to the

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Speaker 5: audience and let let them kind of come to their

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Speaker 5: own conclusions. But one of the small details that really

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Speaker 5: matters is where Mary Fisher's SUV was abandoned. It was

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Speaker 5: a spot in the forest that Robert Fisher and his

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Speaker 5: family were supposed to go camping several days later. It

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Speaker 5: was a spot that.

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Speaker 4: He knew well.

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Speaker 5: And so you have to ask yourself, well, let's say

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Speaker 5: it was an external party, they would have had to

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Speaker 5: know somehow that he knew this exact spot, so you

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Speaker 5: could you could start getting into theories about, oh, maybe

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Speaker 5: somebody took him at gunpoint, and it doesn't make as

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Speaker 5: much sense to me as that he just did it.

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Speaker 5: But I've heard from from everybody, including people that really

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Speaker 5: knew that Fisher as well, and including from law enforcement

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Speaker 5: that they've they've you know Ashley for example, who we

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Speaker 5: just spoke to in this last episode, she gave us

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Speaker 5: some important new information she she spoke to me about

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Speaker 5: like the idea.

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Speaker 4: Of a cartel.

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Speaker 5: So you know it is it is a spectacle, like

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Speaker 5: I say it in the show. But you have three

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Speaker 5: throats cut, you have a suburban home that explodes, you

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Speaker 5: have a fugitive who vanishes in the wilderness near a

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Speaker 5: cave caves. It's it's really I see it and came

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Speaker 5: to see it as this classic Western sort of this

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Speaker 5: like neo Gothic Western story that takes place in two

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Speaker 5: thousand and one in Arizona against this very like harsh landscape,

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Speaker 5: not of the desert, but of the high country in

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Speaker 5: the mountains of Arizona.

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Speaker 2: And with that, we're gonna take a quick break, but

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Speaker 2: we'll be right back for more with John.

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Speaker 3: And we've returned with this. There's something that I think

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Speaker 3: is on a lot of people's minds with cases like this,

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Speaker 3: right that occur in how did you put it, the

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Speaker 3: donut hole, right of the possibility of disappearance. One of

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Speaker 3: the one of the things that continually stands out in

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Speaker 3: cases like this is always going to be the function

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Speaker 3: of law enforcement, which I know is a sensitive topic. However,

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Speaker 3: given the resources available at the time for the investigators,

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Speaker 3: do you think it is possible that they have they

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Speaker 3: maybe missed some aspects of the investigation to Matt's earlier point,

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Speaker 3: for instance, about people worth looking at.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, and I know that for a fact because

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Speaker 5: we found those people. So that is I love the investment,

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Speaker 5: the negative part of this that is really my passion.

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Speaker 5: The writing can be painful, and the audio and the

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Speaker 5: storytelling are fun, but I love investigating and I really,

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Speaker 5: really really get heavily into the investigation, and so does

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Speaker 5: our team. Ben's been involved in that, and then Paul

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Speaker 5: Deckett was involved in that as well. And yeah, so

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Speaker 5: for example, we find two new witnesses who changed the

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Speaker 5: timeline of the case, who see Mary Fisher's SUV after

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Speaker 5: what we've been told for twenty three years is the

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Speaker 5: final sighting. That really matters because it means there was

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Speaker 5: a much shorter window during which Robert Fisher could have disappeared.

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Speaker 5: We find forensic experts that haven't spoken before, at least

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Speaker 5: the press. We found witnesses and family friends and co

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Speaker 5: workers who haven't spoken to even law enforcement. So I

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Speaker 5: find it fascinating about these cases. This is a high

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Speaker 5: profile case. Robert Fisher was on the FBI's ten most

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Speaker 5: wanted list for nineteen years. When I come onto a

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Speaker 5: case like this, I wonder what we Why am I

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Speaker 5: doing this? Why am I investigating this? Obviously you know

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Speaker 5: the FBI and the police must have found everything. Right, Well,

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Speaker 5: the answer is no, and that is why I love

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Speaker 5: doing this, because it's exhausting. But then the one out

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Speaker 5: of ninety nine people, they actually have new information that

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Speaker 5: you've never heard before. So we speak to those people

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Speaker 5: throughout the show and even as we work toward an

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Speaker 5: ending for the show, and I'm clear we haven't found

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Speaker 5: Robert Fisher yet. I really want to find him, and

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Speaker 5: that is a big hope of mine with the audience

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Speaker 5: that we're getting, that we find Robert Fisher. But throughout

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Speaker 5: the show, you're going to hear from new people. And

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Speaker 5: I know law enforcement is listening to the show as well,

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Speaker 5: and they are learning about people because I'm in contact

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Speaker 5: with the spokes and they've never spoken to the cops

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Speaker 5: or the FBI before. So my hope is I have

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Speaker 5: an interesting relationship with law enforcement. I really really respect

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Speaker 5: some of them. Some of these guys really care about

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Speaker 5: this case. Bob Caldwell, FBI, Hugh Lockerby Scottsdale, TJ. Jurand Scottsdale,

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Speaker 5: very smart, capable guys who care. And then I also

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Speaker 5: am clear, like I get to just focus on this

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Speaker 5: full time. But if they really want to solve this,

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Speaker 5: and I believe they do, there are certain things that

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Speaker 5: I think they can do.

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Speaker 4: That I kind of want to light a fire to

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Speaker 4: push them to do.

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Speaker 5: So I lay out, well what can be done forensically,

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Speaker 5: So for example, as of last summer, they had not

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Speaker 5: used like open source like jed match, like DNA databases

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Speaker 5: to say, well, one thing that I speak to experts

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Speaker 5: on familicide and domestic violence, they say, if Fisher did escape,

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Speaker 5: he could have another family. At this point, he could

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Speaker 5: have adult children. So what if one of their adult

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Speaker 5: kids uploaded their DNA and wanted to learn about their ancestry.

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Speaker 5: And then it's like, okay, well, you know, that seems

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Speaker 5: kind of far fetched. But one of the things that

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Speaker 5: I talked to the law enforcement about that as of

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Speaker 5: last summer they had not done, is to look at

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Speaker 5: open source DNA databases like jed match, to say, well,

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Speaker 5: Robert Fisher could have a new family, and if he does,

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Speaker 5: maybe he has a kid who uploaded their DNA and

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Speaker 5: wants to learn about their ancestry. And then it's like, okay,

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Speaker 5: well this is a little weird. I didn't know I

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Speaker 5: had family members in Arizona. So I think, you know,

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Speaker 5: twenty three years later, it is still possible to solve

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Speaker 5: this case. There are forensic things that law enforcement can do.

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Speaker 5: I wish I could do them. Sometimes I try to

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Speaker 5: do them, and I fail occasionally, But you know, one

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Speaker 5: of my goals is to kind of walk this line

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Speaker 5: with law enforcement of respect for the work that they've done,

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Speaker 5: but also to kind of light a fire and say,

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Speaker 5: you know, my allegiance are to the people involved in

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Speaker 5: this case first and foremost, and they really want to

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Speaker 5: get this thing solved. So I you know, people say, well,

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Speaker 5: is this realistic? Like this guy's been gone for twenty

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Speaker 5: three years, you know, like, let's be real, You're not

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Speaker 5: going to find him.

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Speaker 4: TJ.

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Speaker 5: Juran is one of the detectives of the case. He

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Speaker 5: calls this the John List of our generation, and I

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Speaker 5: agree with him. And John List was somebody who killed

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Speaker 5: his family in New Jersey in the early seventies, was

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Speaker 5: on the land for eighteen years, was featured on America's

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Speaker 5: Most Wanted, and then he was living a new life.

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Speaker 5: He had remarried, his wife obviously didn't know who he was.

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Speaker 5: And I think that there are also just other forensic

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Speaker 5: and tech sides of things that we can do to

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Speaker 5: move the case forward. And I know, you guys, we'll

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Speaker 5: probably get into that.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. This brings us three paths that are mission critical

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Speaker 3: to the show. The technology piece that I think we

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Speaker 3: I think we have to get into that at some point.

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Speaker 3: But to your point about the forensic aspects here, one

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Speaker 3: of the questions that I know a lot of people

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Speaker 3: are having are going to be immediately concerned with the car, right,

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Speaker 3: isn't a car traceable to some extent? I mean, Matt,

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Speaker 3: what do you think it through there?

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Speaker 2: Oh, well, the suv was recovered. I just listened to

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Speaker 2: the whole segment where it was the veterinary technicians who

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Speaker 2: are the vets who like helped capture Blue, which was

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Speaker 2: the family dog, and using donuts by the way, which

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Speaker 2: we're mentioned already in the show. But I've been pretty

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Speaker 2: in my mind have been a little focused on the

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Speaker 2: suv because I just listened to episode two again where

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Speaker 2: you discuss the vehicle shuffle where there are two vehicles involved.

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Speaker 2: There's a pickup truck which is owned by Robert and

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Speaker 2: then an suv which is owned by Mary, his wife

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Speaker 2: or that it's their cars, right, And on the night

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Speaker 2: that everything went down, there's a witness who or several

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Speaker 2: witnesses they like saw those vehicles being moved in and

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Speaker 2: out of the carport right or out toward the street

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Speaker 2: because they lived in a cul de sac where if

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Speaker 2: you've got you know, you've got neighbors around a cul

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Speaker 2: de sac, they noticed that kind of thing sometimes. What

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Speaker 2: my big question about suv was, well, they're a couple.

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Speaker 2: But the first one is did any witnesses actually see

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Speaker 2: Robert in the suv leaving the house ever, or on

402
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Speaker 2: the road or once it got to where it ended up.

403
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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question.

404
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Speaker 5: So there are some alleged sightings and there are some

405
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Speaker 5: that I kind of buy in many that I don't.

406
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Speaker 5: It's as difficult to evaluate them. There's nobody confirmed who

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Speaker 5: saw Robert in the suv leaving the house, on the

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Speaker 5: road or in the woods. So I mean that's as

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Speaker 5: an excellent question. And getting to what you were talking

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Speaker 5: about shuffling the vehicles around is why this kind of

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Speaker 5: investigative work matters, because the two new witnesses that we found,

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Speaker 5: that's the only reason that we know this now because

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Speaker 5: previously the final sighting of Robert Fisher or Mary Fisher's

414
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Speaker 5: suv was on atm footage at ten forty two pm.

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Speaker 4: On the night of April ninth, two thousand and one.

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Speaker 5: And then we pushed the timeline back like seven hours

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Speaker 5: I think. And so you know, one of the things

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Speaker 5: we say is that night there was this game of

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Speaker 5: I call it musical cars, And the question is why

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Speaker 5: it's You'll listen to the show, but it's like in out,

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Speaker 5: in out, driveway in, street in driveway out, and it's like,

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Speaker 5: this was a little bizarre and why.

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Speaker 4: Was this going on?

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Speaker 5: And also one of the things that I really heavily

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Speaker 5: am going to focus on as the show goes on

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Speaker 5: is whether somebody helped Robert Fisher, and if instead of

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Speaker 5: only focusing on Robert Fisher, if we start to focus

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Speaker 5: on suspected accomplices who helped him before, during, or after,

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Speaker 5: if we can help bring this case so close.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 2: So I'll just tell you where my mind went because

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Speaker 2: I listened in a weird order. I listened through one

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Speaker 2: through six in order, and then I went back and

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Speaker 2: after hearing episode six, Ashley, Now in my mind, I'm

435
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Speaker 2: almost reevaluating everything in the mind of well, what if

436
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Speaker 2: there was somebody, like a third party that was not

437
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Speaker 2: a part of the family at all, that was maybe

438
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Speaker 2: an enemy of Robert. What if that person was doing

439
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,159
Speaker 2: all these actions that we're seeing we have witnesses seeing

440
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,280
Speaker 2: things and evidence of and in my mind, I went

441
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 2: through this whole list of if I just and this

442
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 2: is horrible to say this out loud, but I am

443
00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:12,119
Speaker 2: thinking this way, if I just murdered this family of

444
00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: this guy I hate and him, I murdered him as well,

445
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 2: Like somewhere at some point in that time, I wouldn't

446
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:23,159
Speaker 2: take a pickup truck because with an open bed with

447
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 2: a body in it or something, I would put evidence

448
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,680
Speaker 2: and everything that I had in this suv that's covered

449
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,439
Speaker 2: that police officers wouldn't see, and the chance that I

450
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 2: passed one, and I would try and make it look

451
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,000
Speaker 2: like that suv got driven to a place where this

452
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 2: guy would have gone, and now he's just missing, and

453
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:45,639
Speaker 2: now he gets blamed for everything and his whole life

454
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 2: is destroyed. And I just keep thinking about all these

455
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 2: little pieces of evidence, and I know it's conspiratorial, John,

456
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 2: That's it's like, WHA could you out there? And I

457
00:24:54,560 --> 00:25:00,159
Speaker 2: don't mean to introduce that necessarily other than the all

458
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 2: the information that you're finding is like painting kind of

459
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:04,439
Speaker 2: a weird picture in my mind.

460
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I don't think there's anything wrong with looking

461
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 5: at the conspiracies like that's. I love looking at the

462
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 5: conspiracies like I like your guys's approach because you look

463
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,760
Speaker 5: at the conspiracies, but you also look at facts, and

464
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 5: I think that there's like there's there's this blindness on

465
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 5: the part of people who are only logic, like you

466
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 5: need to look outside the box. Like a huge theme

467
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 5: that we've had in all three seasons is Aukham's Razor,

468
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 5: which is there's a reason that we're spending years on

469
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 5: these particular cases because yeah, Okham's razor ninety nine percent

470
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 5: of the time, but there are times where.

471
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 4: It doesn't work.

472
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 5: It doesn't always work, and you know, so this is

473
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 5: a case too where no, it's really smart to look

474
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 5: at the alternative answers.

475
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 4: And I think that.

476
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 5: The media and law enforcement in this case had blinders on.

477
00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 5: And even if you come to the conclusion that you

478
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 5: still think Robert Fisher did it, there certainly were other

479
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 5: people that they should have looked at that in different

480
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 5: circumstances they did not look look at very closely. The neighbors,

481
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 5: for example, I cite them in the show, the aggrieved

482
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 5: husband of somebody who Robert Fisher was allegedly having an

483
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 5: affair with. To my knowledge of law enforcement wasn't even

484
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 5: aware of that until our show, So you know, Yeah,

485
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 5: you go through that, you look at it, you say

486
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 5: there is doubt, Like, let's not just paper it over

487
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,600
Speaker 5: for a convenient narrative for the cops and for the media,

488
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 5: and let's let's look at that stuff. And at the

489
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:30,400
Speaker 5: end of the day, if we still think Fisher did it, great,

490
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 5: but it's absolutely worth looking at.

491
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely And that's that's one thing here. There's not a

492
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 3: stone unturned, not a cavern unexplored.

493
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,399
Speaker 2: Right, well, just the cavern's in this thing if you

494
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 2: want to hide a body.

495
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 3: Also, So with this I completely agree with you, guys,

496
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: the concept of the exploration, right again, the idea that

497
00:26:54,400 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 3: no lead, no information, regardless of how potentially tenuous, should

498
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 3: be in that realm of binders or blinders.

499
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 4: Right.

500
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 3: So you have this wide scope and then you narrow

501
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: into these specifics and you have again been on the

502
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 3: ground and under the ground looking for these things that

503
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 3: law enforcement does appear to have missed for one reason

504
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 3: or another. Quite possibly, if we're being honest, resources and

505
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:33,639
Speaker 3: the need to move with other cases in Scottsdale and abroad.

506
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 3: One axiom though, that stands out in this exploration is

507
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 3: that through your research, John, you have become increasingly convinced

508
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 3: that Robert Fisher successfully committed what we call pseudo side

509
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 3: perhaps or on the edge of pseudo side has disappeared,

510
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 3: and you believe the man is alive, and we see

511
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,679
Speaker 3: this in the show from the jump. So could you

512
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 3: tell us just a little bit about why you know, Like, Matt,

513
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 3: you gave this I think very well thought out what

514
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: if on this one, and it's one that a lot

515
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 3: of our audience and a lot of the audience missing

516
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 3: is immediately going to understand because it is possible. So

517
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 3: what to you just in a general way, like, was

518
00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 3: there a moment when you were looking in this case

519
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: and you said, no, this guy is alive.

520
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, So just to circle back to the fore Runner, Matt,

521
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,959
Speaker 5: the interesting thing about the Forerunner is how clean it was.

522
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 5: So they found it in the forest, all the windows

523
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 5: were rolled down. It was so clean, like no mud

524
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,120
Speaker 5: or dirt. A little bit of dirt, you know, but

525
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 5: not a ton. I've been up there in dry weather

526
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 5: and definitely in wet weather. Your car is filthy.

527
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 4: It was.

528
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 5: It was so incredibly clean. And then they processed the

529
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 5: car and they did find some evidence. It's been erroneously

530
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 5: reported that they did not find any So, for example,

531
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 5: they found fingerprints, and those fingerprints I actually speak to

532
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 5: a person of interest later in the show, and I

533
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 5: would really like law enforcement to check that person's fingerprints.

534
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 5: But you know, and then and then, so basically getting

535
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 5: now to Ben's question, why do I think Robert Fisher

536
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 5: is alive?

537
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 3: Well, also, could you talk about the dog? I hate

538
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 3: to be a sucker, Yeah, such a fan of animals.

539
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 5: Well, yeah, Ben, Ben knows this. But in season two

540
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 5: miscou nine to eleven, the person whose disappearance we were

541
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 5: investigating her cats were in her apartment when the World

542
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 5: Trade Center fell, and the number one question I got

543
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 5: the entire show, which I didn't even think about at first,

544
00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 5: was like, are the cats okay? So I learned to

545
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 5: like definitely tell people what happened with the pets. So

546
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 5: that's kind of a fun, colorful, happy, little, very brief

547
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 5: moments of happiness in this show.

548
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 4: Not many, but we take them. So when they.

549
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 5: Found the Forerunner abandoned in the woods, they found the

550
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 5: Fisher's dog, Blue, Australian cattle dog. And one of the

551
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 5: big questions is if Robert Fisher went into the wilderness

552
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 5: and died by suicide. For example, why would Blues stay

553
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 5: with the vehicle and not follow Robert and I speak

554
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 5: to the veterinarian they called in and she was just

555
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 5: like a normal mourning at her little office and they

556
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 5: sent her into the woods alone with like.

557
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 4: Some donuts to capture this dog.

558
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,440
Speaker 5: And she and her friend Patty Blackmore and Samantha Right,

559
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 5: they're hilarious, hilarious, wonderful people.

560
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 4: But yeah, the.

561
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,720
Speaker 5: Dog was rescued, but no blood on the dog. Where

562
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 5: was the dog during the murders? And the dog was

563
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 5: missing its collar and spoiler alert.

564
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: Close your ears if you're listening to the show.

565
00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 5: But we believe that we tracked down the dog's collar

566
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 5: and we flagged that to law enforcement. So even twenty

567
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 5: three years later, there's a possibility that because of our show,

568
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 5: that they have a new piece of forensic evidence that

569
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,360
Speaker 5: they can process for things like blood stains or DNA.

570
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 5: As to why I think Robert Fisher escaped, that is,

571
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 5: I don't have a succinct answer. Is something that I'm

572
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 5: going to make in multiple episodes, but overall, this is

573
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 5: what I think. I think Robert Fisher was a smart guy.

574
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:20,959
Speaker 4: He was not stupid.

575
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,280
Speaker 5: He had experience, He was in the Navy, worked with

576
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 5: aviation fuel, he was a firefighter and EMT. He worked

577
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 5: in hospitals. He was good under pressure. In my personal opinion,

578
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 5: it is something I've discussed privately with law enforcement. He

579
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 5: basically had this plan where his family was starting to crumble,

580
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 5: his wife seemed like she was about to leave him,

581
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 5: and he basically plotted out how to escape. So he

582
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 5: went to an ATM. It's the final time that we

583
00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 5: thought that we saw him, though we know that's not

584
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,160
Speaker 5: true now, and he was wearing, for example, a black

585
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 5: ball cap. I mean, even in two thousand and one,

586
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 5: you know if you're going to the ATM, you're going

587
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 5: to be on camera. When they found the suv abandoned

588
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 5: in the woods, they found none of the belongings he

589
00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 5: took from his home, none of the camping gear, not

590
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 5: his gun, absolutely nothing. The only two things they found

591
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 5: the dog and the hat, the hat that he was.

592
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 4: Wearing in the ATM footage.

593
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 5: I spoke to the cop who was the very first

594
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 5: person to reach the suv. It was carefully placed on

595
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 5: the side of the passenger seat, so to me it

596
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 5: was almost like a calling card of I was here

597
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 5: and then where he abandoned the suv is also fascinating.

598
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 5: We have a brilliant researcher on our team who was

599
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 5: originally a fan of Missigan, Alaska, Paul Gemperline, who we

600
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 5: brought on as a member of our team this season,

601
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 5: and with his help, we pinpointed down to the exact

602
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 5: spot in the woods where the Forerunner was abandoned. So

603
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 5: I've stood up against the actual tree in the woods

604
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 5: in Arizona where the Suv was abandoned. One thing we

605
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 5: did with that as we metal detected around that area.

606
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 5: I won't spoil that, but we went into the caves.

607
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:09,960
Speaker 5: But that spot, if you wanted to pick a spot

608
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 5: that was frustrating for law enforcement, it was let like

609
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 5: nine hundred feet from an Indian reservation. And the importance

610
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 5: of that is because there's tribal land outside, law enforcement

611
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 5: can't just go on. It creates a jurisdiction issue. He

612
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 5: put it one hundred and fifty feet from the closest

613
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,719
Speaker 5: cave I've been into that cave. When you're standing in

614
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 5: the entrance, you can see.

615
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 4: Where the car was parked.

616
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 5: We parked our super cross track kind of close to

617
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 5: the size of what they were driving. So if you

618
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 5: wanted to make this as frustrating and annoying and difficult

619
00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 5: as possible for law enforcement. That's what you would do.

620
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 5: Something else we look at Robert Fisher had very serious

621
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 5: back pain, enough so that at points it was crippling.

622
00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 5: He seemed to be addicted to opioids. So there's just

623
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 5: this issue of people think maybe he went into a cave. Well,

624
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 5: did he go into a cave with severe back problems,

625
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 5: a possible opiod addiction, carrying hundreds of pounds of equipment,

626
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:12,359
Speaker 5: and no sign of his remains or belongings have ever

627
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 5: been found. It starts to seem a little fishy to me,

628
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 5: and then that circles back to do we think somebody

629
00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 5: helps Robert Fisher?

630
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 4: I think somebody helped him.

631
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 5: So then you're looking at well, did he have any

632
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,880
Speaker 5: connections to the drug world? Was he having an affair?

633
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 5: Did he have any kind of shady friends? And I

634
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 5: think those are questions that we look at later in

635
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 5: the show. But long story short, Yeah, I think Fisher

636
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 5: is alive and I really really want to find him.

637
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 3: We're going to pause for a word from our sponsor,

638
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 3: and then we'll return with more from John Walsey, and we're.

639
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 2: Back let's get into it. So I'm trying to imagine,

640
00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: Let's say you take that suv to that place where

641
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 2: it's found. Right, it's pretty much clean, but we know

642
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: it was filled with stuff because stuff was missing from

643
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 2: the house. Right. Where do we think that stuff went?

644
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 2: Just was it enough stuff that he could carry on

645
00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:18,799
Speaker 2: his person or was it one of those things where

646
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,080
Speaker 2: there needed to be another vehicle where it got loaded

647
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 2: into or you know, I don't know. Just what do

648
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:24,840
Speaker 2: you think there?

649
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 4: Yeah?

650
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 5: So I think that that's a really important clue because

651
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 5: the two main theories are that Robert Fischer died by

652
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 5: suicide in the wild, or that somebody helped him escape

653
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,439
Speaker 5: and maybe throwing a suicide trigger warning here.

654
00:35:38,480 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 4: But if you're going.

655
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 5: To die by suicide in the wild, it's a beautiful

656
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 5: area out there. It's unfortunately not uncommon in that general area.

657
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,799
Speaker 5: It's something that law enforcement told me.

658
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 4: But you're not.

659
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 5: Necessarily going to take all of your hundreds of pounds

660
00:35:54,360 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 5: or one hundred two hundred pounds of equipment. You might

661
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 5: just walk up to a hill. So I think that

662
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 5: he left the cap that he was wearing in the

663
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 5: ATM footage as Yes, this was me. You have me

664
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 5: on camera. Now this cap which has my DNA on

665
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 5: it is in the car. Nothing else is here, and

666
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 5: now I'm going to park the vehicle in a very

667
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 5: difficult spot where you're going to have to navigate Cave's

668
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 5: tribal land the wilderness. And so I think that that

669
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 5: is that is a big clue. Personally, I think he

670
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 5: took his stuff with him, wow, just like picked.

671
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 2: It up and went somewhere well real quick.

672
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 5: I mean also that could still be something that helps

673
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 5: us solve this today because one thing I found, for example,

674
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 5: is he took a thirty eight revolver and we know

675
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 5: the serial number of that thirty eight. So that's something

676
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 5: I say in the show, if you have a snubnose

677
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 5: thirty eight, please look at the serial number. So kind

678
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 5: of like the kind of like the dB Cooper cash,

679
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 5: like you'd all think it's ever going to be found,

680
00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 5: And as a little kid is digging on a sandbank,

681
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 5: like we can, we can hope.

682
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, the idea of the wilderness here. One thing that

683
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,360
Speaker 3: maybe a lot of us listening this evening are not

684
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,040
Speaker 3: experientially aware of is the fact that there are people

685
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 3: who do successfully live off the proverbial grid. There are

686
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 3: folks who are simply nomadic in a forest or have

687
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: you know, some kind of hobo jungle or a camp. John,

688
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 3: Is that something that exists in the area of the

689
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 3: wilds of Arizona.

690
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely so.

691
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 5: I don't think Robert Fisher is still living in the

692
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 5: wilderness twenty three years later, but there's definitely a chance

693
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 5: that he did for a time. And I think, you know,

694
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 5: one of the things that we look at, we will.

695
00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 4: Get other cases. Right.

696
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 5: So Eric Rudolph is the most prominent case, the Olympic

697
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 5: Park bomber who in the late nineties and early two thousands,

698
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 5: I mean, he hid out in the mountains of western

699
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 5: North Carolina, my home state, for five years, and he

700
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 5: managed to evade a massive, massive man hunt. Something that

701
00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 5: I also just find interesting is getting away from crime.

702
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:08,919
Speaker 4: Yeah.

703
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,880
Speaker 5: Absolutely, there are people that do this all over the country.

704
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 5: Is something I heard examples of in Alaska. It's something

705
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:17,880
Speaker 5: I heard about in Arizona, where, even though I'm looking

706
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 5: specifically at the Fisher case, that's something that personally fascinates me. So,

707
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 5: for example, I spoke with members of law enforcement who

708
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 5: work in these very rural It is one of those

709
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 5: counties on the map that's like a quarter of the

710
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 5: country long. And they they told me true examples and

711
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:38,720
Speaker 5: names of people that is recently is the last few years,

712
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 5: are are living off the grid on public land and

713
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,200
Speaker 5: in the forest in Arizona. So one of the things

714
00:38:46,239 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 5: that we do in the show is we got to

715
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 5: lead about a possible hermit's cabin not that far from

716
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 5: where Robert Fisher disappeared, and so we tried to hike

717
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 5: to that cabin. It got very rough, rough, but so

718
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,480
Speaker 5: we know certain things, for example, that would it maybe

719
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:09,200
Speaker 5: prove something, but would give us an indication of let's

720
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: look at this more closely, like this type of gun.

721
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 5: He was very into winter green Copenhagen chewing tobacco. So

722
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 5: if I found a little shanty in the woods and

723
00:39:18,120 --> 00:39:20,959
Speaker 5: it was like these dusty old winter green tobacco tins,

724
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:23,920
Speaker 5: it would kind of raise my blood pressure. But the

725
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 5: hermit aspect is really fascinating, and I think that for me.

726
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,160
Speaker 5: I think, you know, missing in Alaska in particular, and

727
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 5: now missing in Arizona, there's this strong wilderness angle where

728
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 5: there are few mysteries that are new. There are few

729
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 5: spots on the map that are unexplored that's what we think.

730
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,040
Speaker 5: But then go go put some GPS coordinates into your

731
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 5: phone like like we did, and you'll see it's pretty

732
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 5: rugged and roughen And you know, I reference that, I say,

733
00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 5: in a violent nature.

734
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 4: Like the film.

735
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Hey, by the way, when you're finished listening

736
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:00,919
Speaker 2: to Missing an Arizona, which you need to go listen

737
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,279
Speaker 2: to right now, do subscribe to Flashpoint, which is a

738
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,600
Speaker 2: whole season that we're making with Tenderfoot on Eric Rudolph

739
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: and just the points you're making about him and how

740
00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:14,040
Speaker 2: he was able to just vanish for so long in

741
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,799
Speaker 2: the wilderness, and he was protected somewhat by individuals that

742
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 2: maybe sympathized a bit with him and what they perceived

743
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: as his cause, which is something to think about here.

744
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 2: I don't think that Robert Fisher had a cause, at

745
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: least that I'm aware of. It doesn't seem like there

746
00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,319
Speaker 2: was any kind of religious or political or any kind

747
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 2: of motivations for the actions that were potentially taken there,

748
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,959
Speaker 2: is that correct, That's what I'm getting from the show

749
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 2: at least.

750
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 4: Yeah.

751
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,120
Speaker 5: So Robert Fisher, I mean, kind of a right leaning guy,

752
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 5: but this was definitely not motivated by politics. And then

753
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 5: you touched on something really important. They were talking again

754
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 5: about Eric Rudolph, which is, you know, Rudolph had far

755
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 5: right ideologues who supported him, so he had help over

756
00:40:59,080 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 5: the years and people that could have turned them in.

757
00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 4: Who did it.

758
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 5: Nobody's supporting someone who killed their.

759
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 4: Wife and children.

760
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's there's not an ideology that no matter where

761
00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 5: left right, whatever, you know, political ideology, there's there's no

762
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 5: support for that. That is he committed. You know, I

763
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 5: think in a different case, if he had robbed a

764
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,799
Speaker 5: bank or something, he'd be a folk hero and to

765
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 5: some people even Eric Rudolph was, though obviously I disagree

766
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:23,680
Speaker 5: with that, but thank you.

767
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, just just to clarify, you guys.

768
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, just get in front of that one, John.

769
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 4: Yeah.

770
00:41:31,160 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 5: And my when I and my teens in North Carolina

771
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,360
Speaker 5: when he when he disappeared, I wasn't out there giving

772
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,319
Speaker 5: him a wheat or.

773
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: Just really quick. If that show is hosted by this

774
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,960
Speaker 2: is a spoiler, is hosted by a child who would

775
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:49,080
Speaker 2: have been aborted by his mother if if Eric Rudolph

776
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 2: hadn't bombed the abortion clinic the morning of the appointment,

777
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,160
Speaker 2: Which is a crazy conundrum that you know, in that

778
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 2: host's mind and in all of our minds, you have

779
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 2: to like work through anyway. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean

780
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: the Rudolph case is fascinating, And I mean I grew

781
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 2: up in North Carolina, went to college in Nashville, North Carolina,

782
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: and I think he was caught Murphy maybe a year

783
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: before I went to the school. So wow, that was

784
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,800
Speaker 2: very very like you know, I mean they got him before.

785
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 2: But I used to go hiking and camping, and but

786
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: there there's also this like dark romanticism of the wilderness

787
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: a fugitive, and with Rudolph, it's a little bit more political.

788
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 4: With Fisher.

789
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 5: What's really interesting about this case, I think is in

790
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 5: some ways this is an extremely rare case. It's a

791
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 5: man who is a family annihilator who successfully escaped. And

792
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:35,920
Speaker 5: I say it in the show. We might not know

793
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 5: his ultimate fate right now, but he did successfully escape.

794
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 5: That is extremely rare in these cases, very few cases

795
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 5: like this. So I think, you know, one of the

796
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 5: things we do everything from speak to experts to go

797
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 5: go into spider filled caverns, but we can learn from

798
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 5: experts who study familicide and family annihilations, and so I

799
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:00,759
Speaker 5: one of the fun parts of this job, and you

800
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:02,440
Speaker 5: guys obviously know it is you get to speak to

801
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 5: experts about fascinating topics. And so in some ways Robert

802
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 5: Fisher is extremely rare and unique, and in other ways

803
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 5: he's not. And what I mean by that is there

804
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,840
Speaker 5: are patterns that typically lead towards these types of crimes.

805
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 5: There are different ways to classify family annihilators. And in

806
00:43:20,880 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 5: the sense that Robert Fisher's family was breaking down and

807
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 5: he was spiraling and losing control, I say it and

808
00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,760
Speaker 5: verbalize it. Ben heard me say this. Control control, control, control, control,

809
00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,480
Speaker 5: that's Robert Fisher. He started to lose control, you know.

810
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:38,719
Speaker 5: And something I tie into is I know there are

811
00:43:38,760 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 5: people out there who are possibly dealing with abusive situations

812
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 5: or situations.

813
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 4: That are not safe.

814
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 5: And one important thing about many of these men who

815
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 5: commit family annihilations is they do not have a history

816
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 5: or a pattern of physical domestic violence. So our idea

817
00:43:56,880 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 5: of the stereotypical wife beater or abuser or doesn't necessarily

818
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 5: fit these guys. Many of them are quote respectable. Robert

819
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,279
Speaker 5: Fisher was a church going guy who worked at the

820
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 5: Mayo Clinic Hospital and had no known history of physical

821
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 5: domestic violence.

822
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 3: So there's a point here that I think you've nailed

823
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 3: with great articulation, which is the idea. The patterns and

824
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:30,480
Speaker 3: predictive kind of analysis only take you so far, because

825
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 3: even in the most depraved cases of criminal behavior, even

826
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 3: when the perpetrators do not think of themselves as human,

827
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 3: they are ultimately human and therefore beholden to certain constraints. Right,

828
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 3: so we can get we can get a rough idea

829
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 3: for some things, but you're to beautifully put point there.

830
00:44:56,400 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 3: This stuff can happen somewhere else. So what makes this

831
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 3: case rare is, without sounding emotionless, what makes this rare

832
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 3: is not that it occurred. What makes it rare is

833
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:16,719
Speaker 3: that the suspected perpetrator has disappeared. And this brings us

834
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: to something that you are able to do that has

835
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 3: not been done in many other cases. You are this

836
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 3: is a light spoiler for everybody listening. You are also

837
00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 3: leveraging technology in an innovative way to not only give

838
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 3: us an idea of what Fisher may look like if

839
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:48,720
Speaker 3: alive now, but also just an exploration that I would

840
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:55,080
Speaker 3: of artificial intelligence and voice modeling that I would argue

841
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 3: also at times goes a little past just the mission

842
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,800
Speaker 3: of the show. We're talking about a lot of things.

843
00:46:01,840 --> 00:46:04,280
Speaker 3: Could you I know I'm throwing a lot at you there, John,

844
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 3: Could you speak a little bit about why you and

845
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:13,759
Speaker 3: your team chose to leverage technology in this way and

846
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:15,360
Speaker 3: what inspired you to do so.

847
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 4: Yeah.

848
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 5: Absolutely, So there are always things that we can do

849
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 5: that are not easy or even sometimes possible for law

850
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 5: enforcement to do. We're not constrained the way that they are,

851
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 5: and we're not bureaucratic the way that they are. So

852
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:31,400
Speaker 5: the first thing that we did is I worked with

853
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,239
Speaker 5: three different forensic artists on new age progressed images of

854
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:37,960
Speaker 5: Robert Fisher. So one of the things every single person

855
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:39,919
Speaker 5: who knew Robert Fisher I asked, do you have any

856
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 5: photos or video of him? Because people ask, well, why

857
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 5: did he blow up the house? And the answer is

858
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 5: always to destroy evidence. I agree with that, but not

859
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 5: in the way people are probably thinking. The bodies were

860
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 5: not destroyed, that evidence was there. He must have had

861
00:46:55,560 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 5: some ideas military experience hospital that wasn't going to fully work.

862
00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,720
Speaker 5: I think partially it could have been maybe just something

863
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 5: an emotional outbursts, But if you're looking at evidence, it

864
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 5: was pre smartphone and at the dawn of digital cameras,

865
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,640
Speaker 5: so we only have so many photos and so many

866
00:47:11,719 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 5: videos of Robert Fisher. I worked on this for two

867
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 5: years and I found fewer than thirty to give you

868
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 5: an example, So I asked every single person that knew

869
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 5: Robert Fisher, do you have photos?

870
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 4: Do you have videos?

871
00:47:23,920 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 5: And we got some excellent new photos of him that

872
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:29,760
Speaker 5: I purposely am not publishing because I'm using them privately

873
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 5: for investigative reasons. They show new angles of his face,

874
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 5: for example. And so we worked with three forensic artists

875
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 5: at the same time without telling them it was an experiment,

876
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 5: and we gave them the same material because I wanted

877
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 5: to see all these three talented people, what do they

878
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 5: come up with when given the same source material? And

879
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,000
Speaker 5: then what we did with that is the best one

880
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,759
Speaker 5: in my opinion. We put on our show art. So

881
00:47:53,840 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 5: for people right now, if they're on their phones, if

882
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 5: you look at the missing in Arizona's show art, that

883
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 5: is an age progressed image of Obert Fisher done by

884
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 5: a very talented forensic artist named Michael W. Streed, who

885
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 5: we worked with previously. The goal being turn our show art,

886
00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 5: which is going to be the most visible part of

887
00:48:10,440 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 5: this show visually into a mini wanted poster. So anybody

888
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 5: who sees that and that that gets to the voice.

889
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 5: So we were able to take home videos of Robert

890
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 5: Fisher that survived the fire. When the house exploded, there

891
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 5: was a fire safe and there were six tapes VHS

892
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 5: tapes in there, Crackley audio and video from the eighties

893
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 5: and nineties. I went through last year and indexed every

894
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 5: single second of Robert Fisher's voice. I have like two

895
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:43,960
Speaker 5: thousand entries of like one second where you hear him speaking.

896
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 5: This is where we get to the crazy, the carry mathison, the.

897
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 4: Maps and stuff.

898
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 5: But so we took that and then I think, you know,

899
00:48:57,280 --> 00:49:01,280
Speaker 5: we recreated Robert Fisher's voice using artificial intelligence. We partnered

900
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,600
Speaker 5: with a company called alter day I out of the UK.

901
00:49:05,080 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 5: They worked on They typically work on projects like Hollywood projects,

902
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:10,799
Speaker 5: so for example, they recreated the voice of a young

903
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:16,040
Speaker 5: Michael Jordan and we partnered with them and we recreated

904
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 5: Robert Fisher's voice. I think when you first hear it,

905
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 5: it's a little jarring because it's lower quality. This was

906
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 5: extremely tough for us to do because we're so used

907
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 5: to it now we're we have high quality, high res

908
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 5: versions of you know, all all of us, Matt, Ben

909
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 5: and me our voices out there so we can make

910
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,160
Speaker 5: each other say whatever we want, right or my brother

911
00:49:38,239 --> 00:49:41,440
Speaker 5: sends me videos of Johnny Casts singing hip hop songs

912
00:49:41,560 --> 00:49:44,200
Speaker 5: or you know, that's the fun side of it. But

913
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:47,880
Speaker 5: with Robert Fisher, we have we had about ten minutes

914
00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:50,399
Speaker 5: of source audio and it was horrible. It was from

915
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,480
Speaker 5: Crackley home videos that mostly survived in a fire safe

916
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,799
Speaker 5: and an exploded house. So what Alter Day I was

917
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,600
Speaker 5: able to do is create a custom voice model for

918
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:04,240
Speaker 5: us and we later on in the show it hasn't

919
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 5: aired yet, I interview an AI Robert Fisher, which is

920
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 5: a very fine ethical line to walk. Uh So that's

921
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 5: it's tough because like I'm scripting this, like so you

922
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,759
Speaker 5: know in my head of man, Okay, so I got

923
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,160
Speaker 5: to be careful, right, like we really I've got to

924
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 5: be careful ethically, I've got to be careful. Obviously, I

925
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 5: still want it to be interesting.

926
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 3: So you're upfront about it.

927
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 4: I'm upfront about it.

928
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like I'm not gonna have Robert Fisher say certain

929
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:39,359
Speaker 5: things like I killed everybody, like you know, but it's

930
00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 5: because because this is this is coming edge technology. You know,

931
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,800
Speaker 5: we were able to take horrible sorts audio and still

932
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 5: do this. And and the goal here is, you know,

933
00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,360
Speaker 5: people have heard it in the trailer, only a tiny

934
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 5: snippet of it. Right now, we haven't played the full thing.

935
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 5: And the goal when you speak to visual forensic artists,

936
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 5: what they tell you and what they told me is

937
00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 5: we're not trying to do a piece of art that's

938
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 5: going to hang in somebody's house, though behind me it

939
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 5: is actually hanging over my shoulder. What they say is,

940
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:13,879
Speaker 5: we want to do something that sparks familiarity because we're

941
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,680
Speaker 5: trying to capture this guy, so we don't want to

942
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 5: say this is exactly what he looks like, because we

943
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 5: don't know exactly what he looks like. We want you

944
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 5: to look at this the show art, the forensic image,

945
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 5: and say, man, that kind of looks like my neighbor,

946
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 5: that kind of looks like my uncle or my father

947
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 5: or god forbid, my husband. And we're starting to get

948
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:35,640
Speaker 5: those leads already, and people are sending us pictures and

949
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 5: it's interesting because we're looking at those internally, and also

950
00:51:39,680 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 5: I know people are contacting the FBI as well, but

951
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 5: with the voice what's really interesting is what I want

952
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,360
Speaker 5: people to understand is that we're not saying this is

953
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:50,960
Speaker 5: exactly what Robert Fisher sounds like in twenty twenty four.

954
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 5: We're saying, if this sparks some familiarity, if you see

955
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,399
Speaker 5: this image and say that kind of looks like this guy,

956
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 5: if you hear the voice and say, okay, well kind

957
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:01,880
Speaker 5: of eighties nineties quality, but that kind of sounds like

958
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:04,880
Speaker 5: him a little bit too, then maybe you'll do a

959
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 5: double take and look closely at people. And we are

960
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:11,520
Speaker 5: legitimately using and leveraging and trying to use this show

961
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 5: to find this guy. So that is, if we find

962
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 5: this guy, it's going to be because of the audience.

963
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 5: It's the same thing that happened with John List. It

964
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 5: was an audience member. It was a woman in Colorado

965
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 5: in her apartment watching America's Most Wanted who said, I

966
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 5: think that kind of looks like our neighbor, Bob. And

967
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 5: I think her kids were like yes, Mom, like like yeah,

968
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 5: that's that's Bob the neighbor, all right, And it was

969
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 5: it was John Listed.

970
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:37,879
Speaker 4: This lady callde John List.

971
00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:39,600
Speaker 2: That's so crazy.

972
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 4: That's so crazy.

973
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:45,480
Speaker 2: The forensic DNA thing I think is so so great.

974
00:52:45,520 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 2: We talked a lot about what was it the original

975
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:49,480
Speaker 2: night stalker.

976
00:52:49,360 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 3: That got caught, and.

977
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: Just a bunch of other people that we've covered on

978
00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,720
Speaker 2: our show that ended up getting caught because officers waited

979
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 2: for whoever to have a finished can and the trash

980
00:53:00,680 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 2: can took it. And then now they found you. But

981
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,400
Speaker 2: it was through finding like a long lost cousin or

982
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 2: a distant relative via those things like Jed match Man.

983
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 2: What you're doing with the AI stuff is so fascinating.

984
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 2: I remember when I first saw the cover art. I

985
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:21,240
Speaker 2: was like, oh, wow, that's crazy and asked Ben about

986
00:53:21,239 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 2: it and he's like, oh, that's actually you know, this

987
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:26,200
Speaker 2: is like what he would look like potentially.

988
00:53:26,640 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 4: What No.

989
00:53:28,560 --> 00:53:31,239
Speaker 3: I love how it sounds like. I love how it

990
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 3: sounds like we're we're hanging out at a college door room,

991
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 3: which is kind of like how our conversations go, like, yeah, bro,

992
00:53:38,200 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 3: this is like what he would look like.

993
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, we're not high in the you know, in

994
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: the quad or whatever that is made at home depot.

995
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 2: I don't know if we'll have time. Sorry to shout

996
00:53:51,080 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: out to one of my favorite Wilferrel movies.

997
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 3: Okay, this is how we talked to each other.

998
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 2: That stuff so awesome. One thing that I really appreciate

999
00:53:58,520 --> 00:54:00,520
Speaker 2: about this show is something we've talked about a couple

1000
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 2: times already. You don't just take for granted what has

1001
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,960
Speaker 2: been written in a publication like a local newspaper states

1002
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:11,520
Speaker 2: something early on in the investigation that ends up not

1003
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 2: being the truth. But a lay person or me or

1004
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 2: just whoever else that's coming to this story way after

1005
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,879
Speaker 2: the fact might look at that and say, oh, well,

1006
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 2: it says here you know, in two thousand and one

1007
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 2: that this happened, and you just take that as a fact.

1008
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 2: Speaking again about myself and anybody else who might be

1009
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:34,200
Speaker 2: just a third party observer of what happened or researching

1010
00:54:34,239 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 2: for their own purposes or on the surface, I really

1011
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:39,880
Speaker 2: appreciate that you dig into that, you actually go to

1012
00:54:39,960 --> 00:54:43,200
Speaker 2: the investigator, you actually go to the human beings that

1013
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:47,040
Speaker 2: were there, and you verify stuff. Just really appreciate it,

1014
00:54:47,080 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 2: and just want to say thanks for doing what you do,

1015
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 2: and please keep doing stuff like that.

1016
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, No, I appreciate it. I think that you know,

1017
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 5: because this is an ongoing investigation, we're not just telling

1018
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 5: a story. We're trying to add to it. And solve it.

1019
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 5: And because of that, we need to have all the

1020
00:55:02,040 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 5: facts correct. So you know, quite often I say it,

1021
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 5: but their early erroneous reports that are later corrected, but

1022
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 5: they live on and these stories become myth and so

1023
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 5: you have these a lot of people sometimes even third,

1024
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 5: second or third generation law enforcement that they're getting these

1025
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 5: bits and pieces that are not accurate, and that is

1026
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 5: really hampering any movement on the case. So yeah, we

1027
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 5: dig into myths and we look at everything and reevaluate it.

1028
00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,359
Speaker 4: And make sure that you know, even for our audience like.

1029
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 5: That they have the facts so that if they want

1030
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:35,520
Speaker 5: to try to help with this. And for the last

1031
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:38,160
Speaker 5: three seasons we have had a lot of actually wonderful

1032
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 5: help that they have everything correct.

1033
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 4: And I know I ruffle some feathers.

1034
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 5: But truly my fidelity is to the show as to

1035
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:51,360
Speaker 5: the story. And yeah, I mean that's just me. I

1036
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 5: nerd out on I nerd out on that stuff, and

1037
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,520
Speaker 5: the truth matters to me, you know. Crediting regional and

1038
00:55:57,520 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 5: local journalist matters to me.

1039
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, it's been a saying it matters such

1040
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:06,560
Speaker 2: a great deal too, And it is just sometimes difficult,

1041
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 2: I think when you're in this sea of all of

1042
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 2: these links and all of the people now who write

1043
00:56:12,480 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 2: about stuff, right, and there's so much commenting, there's so

1044
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 2: many threads on every subject. It's so difficult to sift

1045
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 2: through all that stuff to get to what is likely

1046
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,799
Speaker 2: the closest thing to the truth. And there is a

1047
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 2: bit of faith in there every time you're like, pretty

1048
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 2: sure when that person wrote that down, that's they could

1049
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 2: verify it.

1050
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 4: I hope. It's tough.

1051
00:56:35,200 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, for sure, it's definitely tough. And I mean,

1052
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 5: you know, you look at the press reports and sometimes

1053
00:56:39,560 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 5: they're even conflicting reports, like in the same publication. So

1054
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 5: I think a lot of it is just being able

1055
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,760
Speaker 5: to evaluate information kind of to use your best judgment

1056
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 5: to determine what's accurate, and if there's anything that's really

1057
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 5: important or sensitive, to follow up on it and dig

1058
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 5: in on it, especially when, for example, one thing that

1059
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 5: we mentioned is the idea that there were footprints leading

1060
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 5: to the cave and no return tracks. So if you

1061
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 5: hear that, and it's something that's been repeated for the

1062
00:57:06,680 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 5: last twenty three years, you're understandably going to think, well,

1063
00:57:10,719 --> 00:57:13,280
Speaker 5: Robert Fisher died in a cave because they found footprints

1064
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 5: going to the cave, and why are we even bothering

1065
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,560
Speaker 5: with this show or this investigation? Why am I looking

1066
00:57:18,560 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 5: for him? He's clearly dead in a cave, guys. But

1067
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 5: then when you dig into it and you say, okay,

1068
00:57:23,240 --> 00:57:25,160
Speaker 5: well that seems like such a small detail, right, like

1069
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 5: some footprints. But there's so many people I've talked to

1070
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 5: who say something like that, and then you look at

1071
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 5: it and you say that's actually not true. Then that

1072
00:57:32,640 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 5: removes that idea from people's head. And I say it

1073
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 5: in the show, but it opens up their mind to

1074
00:57:38,160 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 5: other possibilities, or that they're not shutting down the idea

1075
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,960
Speaker 5: that he escaped immediately, and that people kind of get

1076
00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 5: reinvigorated to help find him.

1077
00:57:46,080 --> 00:57:50,280
Speaker 3: And I really appreciate that point, John, That's something on

1078
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 3: a personal level I run into a lot with research myself,

1079
00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:56,640
Speaker 3: and I'm sure Matt feels the same way. This is

1080
00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 3: indicative or illustrative of a great truth that people ignore history,

1081
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 3: hinges on what may appear to be very small things,

1082
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 3: and so we must triangulate, we must look into that.

1083
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:17,880
Speaker 3: And that's something that I think makes our mad endeavor

1084
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:22,959
Speaker 3: here a kindred spirit with missing and speaking of following up,

1085
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:28,360
Speaker 3: one thing we have to say before we go. This

1086
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 3: is again an active investigation. John is cooking live. There

1087
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 3: is a possibility to figure out what actually happened to

1088
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: Robert Fisher and John. You have constructed a way for

1089
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 3: people to contact you directly about this case. I believe

1090
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 3: you are still very much open to any new leads

1091
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 3: or possibilities.

1092
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:57,400
Speaker 4: Yeah. Absolutely, so.

1093
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 5: I tell everybody, look at every single man in your

1094
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,560
Speaker 5: life who wasn't in your life prior to April two

1095
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,240
Speaker 5: thousand and one. Look at them in real life, look

1096
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:07,120
Speaker 5: at them on Facebook, look at them.

1097
00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,680
Speaker 3: On the street, and wait, when did we meet?

1098
00:59:11,080 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 2: Oh god.

1099
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: Six?

1100
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 3: Okay, oh all right.

1101
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 5: And and look at our show art. And now I'm

1102
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 5: looking kind of closely at this Ben Bowling character.

1103
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:26,240
Speaker 4: All right, this was over.

1104
00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 2: How old would he be right now?

1105
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:28,560
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1106
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, so I don't want to age Ben, so he

1107
00:59:30,200 --> 00:59:31,919
Speaker 5: would Robert Fisher would be sixty three.

1108
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 4: Ben is much younger than that, but unless he just

1109
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 4: aged very well.

1110
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:42,040
Speaker 5: But yeah, so, yeah, So I truly want everybody to

1111
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 5: look at everybody in their lives and we I will say,

1112
00:59:45,560 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 5: we're getting leads, We're getting emails. I personally funded a

1113
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 5: ten thousand dollars reward to help find Fisher, because when

1114
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:56,240
Speaker 5: he came off the FBI's ten most wanted list in

1115
00:59:56,320 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 5: twenty twenty one, there was I was shocked to learn

1116
00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 5: zero available for his captures. So we are doing everything

1117
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 5: in our power to find him, and I'd encourage people

1118
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 5: to the contact infos in the show, but the quickest

1119
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,040
Speaker 5: way to reach us is to go to neon thirty

1120
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,560
Speaker 5: three dot com. There's a way you can submit information

1121
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,439
Speaker 5: to us. We take your ananimity very seriously and Ben

1122
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:21,960
Speaker 5: has seen this. But one thing that I've found we're

1123
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 5: getting leads live is a certain photo of someone taken

1124
01:00:25,840 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 5: in the earlier mid two thousands who, to me personally

1125
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 5: we've discussed this internally strongly resembles Robert Fisher.

1126
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,200
Speaker 4: So we are this is.

1127
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 5: An active investigation and people people can help just by

1128
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 5: looking at other people and looking at the age progressed

1129
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:43,040
Speaker 5: image of him. And we absolutely want people's help. And

1130
01:00:43,200 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 5: like I said about the older lady in Colorado with

1131
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 5: John List, if this is solved, we might bring attention

1132
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 5: to it, but it's going to be solved by somebody

1133
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:52,360
Speaker 5: who's out there listening or watching.

1134
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: You have a number for tips as well right.

1135
01:00:55,520 --> 01:00:57,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, So if people want to call in, they can

1136
01:00:57,200 --> 01:00:59,919
Speaker 5: call one eight three to three new tips. That's any

1137
01:01:00,200 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 5: w tips, So it's one eight three three six three

1138
01:01:02,960 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 5: nine eight four seven seven. They can email us at

1139
01:01:06,240 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 5: tips at iHeartMedia dot com, tips at iHeartMedia dot com,

1140
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 5: or they can go to our site at neon thirty

1141
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,000
Speaker 5: three dot com. And if they go to our site,

1142
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 5: one of the things they'll be able to see as

1143
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 5: a new wanted poster we did with a high resolution

1144
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 5: ACE progress image of Fisher.

1145
01:01:21,160 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 3: And with this we want to thank you John Waalzac,

1146
01:01:25,560 --> 01:01:30,160
Speaker 3: investigative host, creator of the Missing series. You can check

1147
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 3: out Missing in Arizona right now. It is in media rests,

1148
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:37,440
Speaker 3: which is just the fancy way of saying we're in

1149
01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,439
Speaker 3: the thick of it right now, in the trenches. As

1150
01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 3: John said, we want your help and while you're at it,

1151
01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 3: while you're up, do also check out Missing in Alaska

1152
01:01:48,200 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 3: and Missing on nine eleven. John, We can't thank you

1153
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 3: enough for your time here.

1154
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you guys so much.

1155
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 5: And if you like the show, if you give us

1156
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:58,840
Speaker 5: five stars on Apple, I would be humbly appreciative.

1157
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:00,360
Speaker 4: But I hope we find Fisher.

1158
01:02:00,360 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 5: I hope the next time I talk to you, it's

1159
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:04,600
Speaker 5: so with a picture of him and handcoffs or you know,

1160
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 5: my dream is he says, I'm not speaking to anybody

1161
01:02:06,640 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 5: but John and Ben and I get to go to

1162
01:02:09,200 --> 01:02:11,120
Speaker 5: go to the jail in Arizona and speak to him.

1163
01:02:11,160 --> 01:02:14,760
Speaker 2: So whoa what if he contacts you and wants you

1164
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:16,040
Speaker 2: to go to the woods somewhere.

1165
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: Let's do it.

1166
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 4: Let's do it.

1167
01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:23,280
Speaker 3: Let's just let's bring a crew. Matt, what are what

1168
01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:23,840
Speaker 3: are you doing?

1169
01:02:24,600 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 2: You?

1170
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:26,640
Speaker 5: You know, Matt, Matt is your idea, So you're going

1171
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 5: to be the sacrificial lamb.

1172
01:02:28,000 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 2: All right, John, I'm coming.

1173
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 4: Let's hang out.

1174
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 3: Okay, thanks guys, And that is our conversation with Missing

1175
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 3: An Arizona creator John waalzac H. Matt, I feel like

1176
01:02:40,800 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 3: we went to a lot of places and we still

1177
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 3: have more to figure out.

1178
01:02:44,000 --> 01:02:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, now, I want to dive into the case with

1179
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 2: you guys, because I have so many questions and I've

1180
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 2: got my own pet theories that I kind of want

1181
01:02:51,880 --> 01:02:55,640
Speaker 2: to disprove that I currently cannot. But I'm just going

1182
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 2: to keep listening because they're way more episodes than six right.

1183
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, there are more episodes on the way we

1184
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 3: can't wait for you to hear them. And one thing

1185
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,920
Speaker 3: that John said that I think really resonates with all

1186
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 3: of us is that it will be you, specifically you,

1187
01:03:13,680 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 3: who helps solve this mystery. So reach out to John,

1188
01:03:18,880 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 3: tell us your thoughts as well about this case any

1189
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 3: similar cases that you may have knowledge of. We try

1190
01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 3: to be easy to find online. We're talking YouTube, the instagrams,

1191
01:03:30,840 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 3: the social meds. You can find us as some derivation

1192
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,920
Speaker 3: of conspiracy stuff or conspiracy stuff show at basically any

1193
01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:42,440
Speaker 3: place that hasn't act in the front of their handles.

1194
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,720
Speaker 3: And if you don't want to do that, if you

1195
01:03:45,880 --> 01:03:48,960
Speaker 3: prefer to go a little more analogue, which we're always

1196
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 3: fans of, we have a telephone number as well.

1197
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:55,200
Speaker 2: Yes, our number is kind of like John's one eight

1198
01:03:55,400 --> 01:04:00,600
Speaker 2: three three STDWYTK. When you call in, it is voicemail

1199
01:04:00,640 --> 01:04:03,200
Speaker 2: system and you only get three minutes, and within that

1200
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 2: three minutes you need to give yourself a cool nickname.

1201
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,000
Speaker 2: We don't care what it is. We're excited to hear

1202
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 2: it and let us know if you give us permission

1203
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 2: to use your name and voice in one of our

1204
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 2: listener mail episodes. And hey, if you've got more to

1205
01:04:14,640 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 2: say they can fit in a message, why not instead

1206
01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:18,760
Speaker 2: send us a good old fashioned email.

1207
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:23,240
Speaker 3: We are the entities that read every piece of correspondence

1208
01:04:23,360 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 3: we receive. I don't want to lose the point about

1209
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 3: listener mail segments and our strange news segments, because they

1210
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 3: do inform episodes. You don't have to feel like you're

1211
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:35,920
Speaker 3: responding to something that was already on air. If you

1212
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 3: want to give us a lead, if something crazy is

1213
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 3: happening in your neck of the global woods, we want

1214
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:42,480
Speaker 3: to hear it.

1215
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 2: Or if you just want to call and just say

1216
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 2: something silly to us.

1217
01:04:45,760 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 3: Or if you just want to call and say something

1218
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:50,800
Speaker 3: silly to us. We love the emails. We love the

1219
01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 3: phone calls. Join us over here in the dark Conspiracy

1220
01:04:54,960 --> 01:05:15,800
Speaker 3: at iHeartRadio dot com.

1221
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:18,000
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

1222
01:05:18,120 --> 01:05:22,640
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

1223
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,