Speaker 1: Hi Catherine, Hi Chelsea. How are you. Oh, I'm well,
Speaker 1: thank you. It's September. We're still in September. I feel
Speaker 1: like September is definitely part of summer now, it's not
Speaker 1: the fall. I was at Disneyland. Okay, that's enough, Nope,
Speaker 1: no more talking. Almost died there. So there has been
Speaker 1: a heat wave in Los Angeles, and luckily I've only
Speaker 1: been there. I'm not there right now. I've only been
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles for six days this month. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1: So that's been good because I tried to avoid I
Speaker 1: tried to hop scotch around the country to avoid the heat.
Speaker 1: But yeah, one hundred and five degrees is gross, especially
Speaker 1: for like ten days straight. My family and I are
Speaker 1: in the business now, My cousins and my nuclear family
Speaker 1: are all in the business now of buying a compound. Oh,
Speaker 1: we are looking in Connecticut possibly. I told Molly to
Speaker 1: get on it because obviously I can't do any of
Speaker 1: the legwork. She's responsible, and she's responsible, way more capable
Speaker 1: than I am doing almost anything. When we were on
Speaker 1: tour this last weekend, I was like, can you just
Speaker 1: go up and do my set for me? And She's like, no,
Speaker 1: that's one thing I cannot do say she probably knows
Speaker 1: that now. But I can do is my set. It's
Speaker 1: like I'm capable of doing nothing but talking excessively, and
Speaker 1: that I don't even really want to do that either.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. Everything I do is writing talking.
Speaker 1: It's all word use. That's it. You're a specialist. I'm
Speaker 1: a talking specialist. Even my editor came back to me
Speaker 1: last weekend and we had to do a legal call.
Speaker 1: I had to do a legal call to make sure,
Speaker 1: like book, yeah, for these situations that are true. And
Speaker 1: my book is going to be published on a very
Speaker 1: special date next year. It may or may not be
Speaker 1: my fiftieth birthday, So we will get to that when
Speaker 1: we get to that. But she was like, oh, we
Speaker 1: have to do and I'm like, listen, I don't know
Speaker 1: how many more conversations I can have about this fucking book.
Speaker 1: I wrote it. It's in great fucking shape, and like,
Speaker 1: let's wrap it up. I told Molly, I'm like, I
Speaker 1: have to do a call about my book. She's like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, is that book still Oh my good?
Speaker 1: Has it even come out yet? And I'm already done
Speaker 1: talking about it?
Speaker 2: So you need to like manifest for you, like things
Speaker 2: coming to a close, like things like moving the fuck.
Speaker 1: I know, Oh, Doug, not you, Doug though, no, not you,
Speaker 1: you say we need you. Our guest today is someone
Speaker 1: you know as one of the Fab Five on Netflix's
Speaker 1: Queer Eye. He also has his talk show Karamo, which
Speaker 1: is back for it's third season. So please welcome Emmy
Speaker 1: winning talk show host Caramo Brown.
Speaker 3: Through Life. I don't wait for anyone else to do it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, exactly. You got a clap for yourself. If
Speaker 1: I could clap with my feet, I would be but
Speaker 1: I can't. I could do other things with my feet, though,
Speaker 1: but we'll get into that later. I'm sure. I'm just
Speaker 1: about to say, obviously you can too. We're recording in
Speaker 1: my house today, so this is very exciting, beautiful home.
Speaker 1: You're oh, well, thank you, it's coming together. You're our
Speaker 1: first in house guest ever. That is exactly well. I
Speaker 1: always love a black man to start anything off for me.
Speaker 1: This is perfect. Okay. I want to talk to you
Speaker 1: about your story because it's pretty fascinating about your children,
Speaker 1: So break down for us. You came out when you
Speaker 1: were sixteen, is that right?
Speaker 3: Fifteen?
Speaker 1: Fifteen fifteen and you had already gotten someone pregnant unbeknownst
Speaker 1: to you.
Speaker 4: Yea.
Speaker 1: So she was I like your stuff.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you do it right. She was my best friend.
Speaker 3: She was probably one the first people I told that
Speaker 3: I was gay at fourteen, before I told my entire family,
Speaker 3: and which was rough because I'm a son of immigrants,
Speaker 3: so my parents aren't from this country.
Speaker 1: Where are they from?
Speaker 3: Jamaican and Cuba, And the Jamaica's side is very you know,
Speaker 3: they're very homophobic. But I just knew I couldn't live
Speaker 3: my life without telling the truth. I'm somebody who just
Speaker 3: spits out my own truth. Hey, like I like you,
Speaker 3: no secrets, tell it all. And so she had a
Speaker 3: boyfriend that was a senior when we were a freshman,
Speaker 3: and she didn't want to lose a virgina to him
Speaker 3: and be bad, so she'd be bad in bed, be
Speaker 3: bad in bed. So she asked if I would practice
Speaker 3: with her. And again at fourteen fifteen, it made sense, like,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm gay, but I can practice with you.
Speaker 3: I'm a male, so we can practice. And anything got
Speaker 3: me hard back then, like the breeze, the wind got
Speaker 3: me hard.
Speaker 1: That's always something that comes up with men that we
Speaker 1: had sex with women before they came out. People like,
Speaker 1: how did you get an erection? I'm like, ah, any
Speaker 1: teenager can get in an direction, anything by.
Speaker 3: A curtain, yeah, anything, you know what I mean. The
Speaker 3: beating of the music in the car, and all of
Speaker 3: a sudden, I was like aroused, and so we did it.
Speaker 3: It lasted, no joke, five seconds, and I sat on
Speaker 3: the edge of the bed, like pacing back and forth.
Speaker 3: It was like no, no, no, but I was just
Speaker 3: like I knew I did not want to do that
Speaker 3: ever again.
Speaker 1: Was it sex?
Speaker 3: It was obviously penetrated once or twice, and then was
Speaker 3: like I don't like this, don't like this, and I
Speaker 3: feel bad later in life I apologize because I'm like
Speaker 3: I ruined your first time. Like I'm on the bed
Speaker 3: of the side of the bed crying and you're like
Speaker 3: holding me and saying I'm so sorry, and I'm like,
Speaker 3: that's your first thing.
Speaker 1: It's almost like you were in a threesome and you
Speaker 1: were the third person that got left out, sitting on
Speaker 1: the edge of the.
Speaker 3: Bed exactly, and then she moved away. This is nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety five, so this before the internet. Like the things
Speaker 3: that we know today cell phones, so when someone moved,
Speaker 3: if you didn't have their home address or their home number,
Speaker 3: you couldn't you know, see him. And so I went
Speaker 3: on with my life. And then when my son was nine,
Speaker 3: I got a stack of paper for back child support
Speaker 3: from the Attorney Generals of Texas office, and I thought
Speaker 3: I was being punked because that show Punk was on
Speaker 3: and I was on Real World back in the day,
Speaker 3: so I thought they were doing some like punked, you
Speaker 3: know d lists version, you know, like let's punk the
Speaker 3: gay guy from Real World. And I was like, I
Speaker 3: don't have a freaking kid, threw the papers down, and
Speaker 3: then soon that night I realized I saw her name
Speaker 3: that I hadn't seen since I was fifteen, My name
Speaker 3: and then this kid's name, and then I went back
Speaker 3: to Texas where I'm from to find out if it's true,
Speaker 3: found out it was, and then petitioned for custody of
Speaker 3: him six months later, full custody, full custody because she
Speaker 3: was now twenty five with five kids, so she was drowning.
Speaker 1: And so she had reached out for support to you right.
Speaker 3: Who was she applied for benefits and the State of
Speaker 3: Texas found me because she put my name on the
Speaker 3: birth certificate without me knowing.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I see.
Speaker 3: And so when I showed up on her doorsteps, she
Speaker 3: didn't even know that I was coming. And it's funny
Speaker 3: because I should have been angry, but I wasn't because
Speaker 3: the men I saw her, we were fifteen again, I
Speaker 3: know the broken home she came from, and so I
Speaker 3: just remembered us being kids, and so I just was like,
Speaker 3: we just started crying and laughing. And for the first
Speaker 3: thirty minutes that we reconnected, we didn't even talk about
Speaker 3: the kid. Were like, we're just reconnecting. And then she
Speaker 3: was like, oh shit, your son's coming home in thirty minutes.
Speaker 3: Do you want to meet him?
Speaker 5: But what prevented her from reaching out to you this
Speaker 5: whole time?
Speaker 3: She said she didn't want to ruin my life, like
Speaker 3: her life was wrong.
Speaker 1: Oh oh my god.
Speaker 3: She was like she wanted We grew up extremely poor,
Speaker 3: and she was like she wanted want of us to
Speaker 3: make it, and so her idea was by me not
Speaker 3: having to deal with this, I would make it. And
Speaker 3: there's a lot of part to that that's true. I
Speaker 3: talk about this with my best friend Tray all the time.
Speaker 3: Is that, like, I don't know if i'd be here
Speaker 3: if I had to have the responsibility of raising a
Speaker 3: child at fifteen, absolutely, you know, like I was afforded
Speaker 3: to go through high school, I was afford to go
Speaker 3: through college, I was afford to move to LA to
Speaker 3: kind of live my life. And then a child popped up.
Speaker 3: And don't get me wrong, I was still young, but
Speaker 3: now I had all the resources and enough knowledge to
Speaker 3: take care of him. But at fifteen, I mean, I
Speaker 3: don't think. I don't know if that could have screwed
Speaker 3: me up totally. I might have went back in the clouse.
Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, I'd like, I don't know
Speaker 3: where my life would have been if she didn't make
Speaker 3: that decision. And so because of that decision, that's why
Speaker 3: I took custody, Because I said, I'm going to make
Speaker 3: your life easier in every way I can.
Speaker 5: And was she okay with you taking custody for custody events.
Speaker 3: Well, she was because of the fact that I made
Speaker 3: a promise to her that I would keep our family tight.
Speaker 3: So even for the first year and a half that
Speaker 3: I got him, I didn't move from Texas, even though
Speaker 3: I had my place in La I'd made sure that
Speaker 3: every day we were going back and forth so that
Speaker 3: he felt connected. But then I realized there was a
Speaker 3: bigger plan because within that year, she has another son
Speaker 3: who because I worked as in social services, I was
Speaker 3: a safe placement and so instead of them moving all
Speaker 3: the kids into foster care, and so he came with me.
Speaker 3: And it was supposed to be for six weeks thirty
Speaker 3: six months, and somewhere at that year point of him
Speaker 3: being with me, he was doing better. He's going to therapy,
Speaker 3: his grades was great, and he called me dad because
Speaker 3: he never knew his biological father. And I was like, oh,
Speaker 3: should I have two kids? And so I went to
Speaker 3: her and I was like, they're both doing good. Should
Speaker 3: I take custody of both? And she was like, thank you.
Speaker 3: And we've been a tight knit family. She comes, we're tight.
Speaker 3: We go back and forth and and you know, so,
Speaker 3: I'm like, you did it for me so I could
Speaker 3: be here, so I'm going to help you.
Speaker 1: Wow, that's really beautiful.
Speaker 3: So the lesson of this is every girl out there,
Speaker 3: sleep with your gay.
Speaker 1: Bestie, that's right. I hope that they'll make it on
Speaker 1: queer eyes and then yeah, and I get.
Speaker 3: Their own talk show.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so how is that? I mean, what that responsibility
Speaker 1: coming on in such a burst. I mean, you don't
Speaker 1: really have a lot of time to prepare for that responsibility.
Speaker 1: So what what was it about it that made it
Speaker 1: so doable for you?
Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't. I think I had this sort of
Speaker 3: blind delusion because my father was shitty and I knew
Speaker 3: that I didn't want to be him, so I sort
Speaker 3: of I went into this with sort of like a
Speaker 3: vengeance of I'm gonna show you you fuck her, I'm
Speaker 3: not like you and I and so if I'm being
Speaker 3: real with it, it wasn't that I was like I
Speaker 3: could be a dad. I just knew that I wasn't
Speaker 3: going to be him, and I wanted him to watch
Speaker 3: me be better than him. But in that process I
Speaker 3: learned so much empathy, love, vulnerability. Like my kids saved
Speaker 3: my life because right before I'd met them, I was suicidal.
Speaker 3: I tried to kill myself two years before. My best friend,
Speaker 3: the same person is the one who found me. He
Speaker 3: was leaving for work and I just tried to do
Speaker 3: it and then on his he had a sense and
Speaker 3: came back and called the ambulance. So I was just
Speaker 3: having and it was all based on daddy issues, all
Speaker 3: daddy issues, everything about my father hating me. You know,
Speaker 3: my dad was abusive to my mother my entire life,
Speaker 3: and when I told him I was gay, he literally
Speaker 3: from in high school because we lived together my mother
Speaker 3: finally divorced him. He would walk by me for weeks
Speaker 3: without saying a word. And now I know what type
Speaker 3: of emotional and mental abuse that is, but at the
Speaker 3: time it was just our household. He would literally be
Speaker 3: standing in the kitchen. I would ask him questions to me,
Speaker 3: like talk to me, talk to me, and he would
Speaker 3: not because he was like, I don't want to talk
Speaker 3: to your fagot ass. And so I knew that I
Speaker 3: could be better than him when I became a father,
Speaker 3: and that was sort of the catalyst. I'm like, yeah,
Speaker 3: give me.
Speaker 5: Kids, and what's your Have you had any contact with
Speaker 5: your father now?
Speaker 3: Yeah, a couple of years ago, like six years ago,
Speaker 3: which I thought was the money and fame, but he
Speaker 3: hasn't answer or anything. Fingers crossed. He came to me
Speaker 3: later and was like, I'm so sorry for how I
Speaker 3: treated you. I reconciled my relationship with religion and my
Speaker 3: relationship with you, and I realized I should have put
Speaker 3: you first. I'm sorry for everything I did. Please give
Speaker 3: me a chance, and I had already give forgiven him
Speaker 3: from years ago. I was like, I was like, you
Speaker 3: didn't know no better because your daddy didn't teach you
Speaker 3: any better, and you didn't know any better because you
Speaker 3: were hurting, And so I just I gave that up
Speaker 3: a long time ago, any hurt. And also I didn't
Speaker 3: want my kids to see me hating.
Speaker 5: So I was called a cycle breaker.
Speaker 1: That's book to cycle breaker.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I just opted and I was like, you
Speaker 3: welcomed me back in my life. Thing. Two boundaries I
Speaker 3: have is that you can never disrespect me in front
Speaker 3: of my children, because if you have a problem with
Speaker 3: who I'm dating or who I'm loving. And secondly, you're
Speaker 3: not able to teach any of my kids in your
Speaker 3: bad habits, So like if you're drinking or these things,
Speaker 3: and does I said, if you can respect those two things,
Speaker 3: you're fine. And he has not ever say anything bad.
Speaker 3: And when he gets around the suns, he is like
Speaker 3: an angel. And my Mom's always like, that's all it took.
Speaker 3: Tokim a fucking angel with some boundaries on his ass.
Speaker 5: I know better late than never, though, right.
Speaker 1: I Mean, people can be such big disappointments in your life,
Speaker 1: but once they turn it around, it's like all is forgiven.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're a healthy person who's able to forgive,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of people that can't.
Speaker 1: But forgiving is so good for you, it's so good.
Speaker 3: Well that's why I did it earlier, because I realized
Speaker 3: when I was suicidal it was because I was holding
Speaker 3: onto all this anger with him, and I was like
Speaker 3: resenting him, and it made me sadder. And then I
Speaker 3: was like, I don't want to be here anymore because
Speaker 3: like what, I'm gonna end up being like him and
Speaker 3: like all this stuff. I had a boyfriend before, when
Speaker 3: I was in my twenties that we were in a physical,
Speaker 3: abusive relationship and anytime I got angry, I would hit
Speaker 3: him and it was you too, No, I was I
Speaker 3: was a bully. I was my father. I was my father.
Speaker 3: And that sort of led me to that place of
Speaker 3: being depressed because I knew I was turning into him,
Speaker 3: and because it was the only model I have where
Speaker 3: I like, people would get mad and I would just
Speaker 3: go silent. I was just like literally turning into him.
Speaker 3: And I didn't realize until I forgave him and told myself,
Speaker 3: I have to work to be better. I have to work.
Speaker 3: I have to make conscious decisions to break this that
Speaker 3: I would have I would have turned into him. And
Speaker 3: so you know, I'm glad I didn't.
Speaker 1: No, I'm glad you did it too. What's your relationship
Speaker 1: status these days?
Speaker 3: I'm single?
Speaker 1: And are you available looking for a lover?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 1: No, you're not.
Speaker 6: I am not.
Speaker 1: How old are your kids now?
Speaker 3: Twenty six and twenty four?
Speaker 7: Shit?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is crazy.
Speaker 3: I do not want a relationship. Why because they're trash? Well,
Speaker 3: I want everyone else to find love. I just don't
Speaker 3: want to.
Speaker 1: Well that's normal for to go through phases where you're
Speaker 1: not interested.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what, I've never been seing on my entire life.
Speaker 1: Well, then that's why you need to be single.
Speaker 3: That's it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: How long has it been.
Speaker 3: That I've been single?
Speaker 1: Mm hmm?
Speaker 3: What two months?
Speaker 1: Oh? Well that's not a lot of time.
Speaker 4: I know.
Speaker 3: I'm being patient and.
Speaker 1: You're not getting penetrated at all. I'm sorry, or penetrating anyone.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you're a top bottom. Okay, Well,
Speaker 1: I can talk about your body that you're probably a top,
Speaker 1: a good top. But yeah, I've been able to now
Speaker 1: differentiate tops and bottoms. I'm like, oh yeah, well, I
Speaker 1: mean it's pretty obvious. Are you a top or bottom?
Speaker 3: I don't know?
Speaker 1: But also, why the fuck does it matter?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 1: Why am I decided? It's not like you look at
Speaker 1: a heterosexual couple and be like, does she get on top?
Speaker 1: Like you don't think about that? It's so gay? Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm just very curious. So how long do you think
Speaker 1: you'll go? How long? What's your plan to remain alone?
Speaker 1: Because I think it's very healthy to be okay by yourself.
Speaker 1: Everybody needs to learn that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my plan is hopefully a year or two. Oh, okay,
Speaker 3: that's the plan. You think I should go longer?
Speaker 5: No, I think that's a long time. Yeah whatever, I mean.
Speaker 3: I just I know, at least a year. But I'm
Speaker 3: my best friend. He thinks it should be at least
Speaker 3: to because I haven't been single, like and I slept
Speaker 3: with her. I got into a relationship with a boy,
Speaker 3: and got to another relationship with a boy and to
Speaker 3: another one and they're all long term. I ended my
Speaker 3: relationship when I found out I was kids and then
Speaker 3: moved kids in and then during them I had a
Speaker 3: ten year relationship, broke up with him in twenty twenty,
Speaker 3: then got to another one two months later, broke up
Speaker 3: with him, and then got into the one I was
Speaker 3: with for three years.
Speaker 1: But you must feel I would imagine being on a
Speaker 1: show like Queer Eye really lends itself to confirming your
Speaker 1: positivity about your gayness.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I like being gay.
Speaker 1: I mean right, yeah, but a validation.
Speaker 3: I swear most people should try being gay once in
Speaker 3: their lives.
Speaker 1: Most people do try one. Some people try a couple
Speaker 1: more of the time than once, and you're like, ah,
Speaker 1: you might actually be gay.
Speaker 3: Yeah you're right. Yeah, but I love it and being
Speaker 3: on the show. Yeah, it just what it really does
Speaker 3: is like it helps. It feels so good to go
Speaker 3: into spaces where people might have reservations or like my father,
Speaker 3: not know how to reconcile their religion with their love
Speaker 3: of other people, and the fact that you can walk
Speaker 3: into spaces and then all of a sudden they're like, oh,
Speaker 3: we're all the same, yeah dummy, Yeah, of course we're
Speaker 3: all the same. But sometimes it takes people a little
Speaker 3: bit longer, and so to be able to be on
Speaker 3: a show where you've just become that image that all
Speaker 3: people deserve respect and love and kindness feels good.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's it's a good message, will and
Speaker 1: for it to be such a huge hit, for it
Speaker 1: to be in one so many Emmys and beyond for
Speaker 1: so many years, it's a big validation for gay people everywhere.
Speaker 1: Among the other cultural things that are happening. It's nice
Speaker 1: to see something like that be so successful.
Speaker 3: Can I tell you a story that I want to
Speaker 3: share with you that you're never going to remember?
Speaker 5: Oh fine, Oh, I already know I won't remember it.
Speaker 3: It's actually a really good one.
Speaker 1: Oh good, I love. Those are my favorites, only because.
Speaker 3: You brought up the career I before was in television.
Speaker 3: Came to your house. This is twenty sixteen, fifteen you lived.
Speaker 3: I don't even know. I was bell are Yes with
Speaker 3: Charlie Ston's.
Speaker 7: Mother, Juke Gerdad Yes, and her friend Keisha Knowles. Okay,
Speaker 7: I probably don't memembory these. You had a dinner party
Speaker 7: and they somehow let me come and I was there.
Speaker 7: You are very kind, You're nice, and you say, what
Speaker 7: are you doing? I said, I work in social services
Speaker 7: and he said, then you know, what do you really
Speaker 7: want to do? And I said, I really want to
Speaker 7: be a TV host and you looked me up and
Speaker 7: down and said you're going to make it. And I
Speaker 7: was like, ah, I thought you're being sweet, and then
Speaker 7: you stopped and said, no, you're going to make it
Speaker 7: because you're thoughtful in your kind and I really believe
Speaker 7: in you, and you need to know me, and those
Speaker 7: type of things when you're a big celebrity to say
Speaker 7: to somebody who's on the come up, which is very kind.
Speaker 7: First of all, I was surprised you have me in
Speaker 7: your house.
Speaker 3: Me too, oh, like, what the hell? And you have
Speaker 3: me in your house and you said the kindest things
Speaker 3: to me that night.
Speaker 1: That's so nice.
Speaker 5: Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 3: What really surprised me was to stop and like, no,
Speaker 3: I'm not saying this just to say this. I'm encouraging
Speaker 3: you in a very I.
Speaker 1: Think it is very important, especially now that you're in
Speaker 1: that position. It is very important to always see people
Speaker 1: and make sure that they know you saw them, because
Speaker 1: it really does make a difference in every person's life
Speaker 1: when they are being seen or when they are seen,
Speaker 1: you know, like and especially so much I feel this
Speaker 1: way about children, you know, when children are going through
Speaker 1: tough times or they just need one fucking person, not
Speaker 1: to become famous, but just to be to have like
Speaker 1: their back, to like I see you, I support you,
Speaker 1: I've got your back, and I'll be here for you.
Speaker 1: It really is something that goes a long way, and
Speaker 1: as you can demonstrate by your memory.
Speaker 3: It's meaningful, meaningful.
Speaker 1: And I remember when people said things like that to
Speaker 1: me as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's that extra pause, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: I just think about leaving parents when they're busy, and
Speaker 3: we get it, but you're talking to your kids, you're
Speaker 3: doing stuff. But when you say, let me put down
Speaker 3: and let me be present, partners kids with a stranger,
Speaker 3: because that's what I will see, a stranger. And that's
Speaker 3: why the pause and saying no, you can make it
Speaker 3: meant something, because it was like, you don't know who
Speaker 3: the hell I am. You don't even know if I'm
Speaker 3: good or not. But your encouragement in the pause was
Speaker 3: enough to say you can at least try. And I
Speaker 3: believe and so appreciate you have me over your house.
Speaker 1: And she was right, Yeah, exactly the most important bar. Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not We're going to take a break and we'll
Speaker 1: be right back to take some callers. And we're back.
Speaker 1: We are back.
Speaker 2: We actually have some very juicy ones today.
Speaker 1: I love juicy.
Speaker 3: I love a juicy booty.
Speaker 1: Did you see my big black dog, Beautiful.
Speaker 5: I finally have a black man to come home to
Speaker 5: you every night, Doug.
Speaker 1: It's a man. They were like, we have a black one,
Speaker 1: we have a blue one, and I'm like, you know what,
Speaker 1: so beautiful. Look at him?
Speaker 3: He is.
Speaker 1: What kind of dogs do you have?
Speaker 3: German shepherd mix husky mix and a.
Speaker 5: Blue healer, a blue healer, a lot of energy blue heeler.
Speaker 3: Actually, she was abused for so many years, so she's
Speaker 3: so quiet and all she does is protect me. But
Speaker 3: the Shepherd husky mix though nightmare.
Speaker 1: High energy, high energy.
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is a fir. I haven't had a hire
Speaker 5: ANAJR dog in a while.
Speaker 1: And I'm like take it. Yeah, okay, and we're back, Catherine.
Speaker 2: What do we have, Well, we've got a shared custody
Speaker 2: situation with Zoe and McKenna.
Speaker 4: There.
Speaker 1: Zoey's the one writing in.
Speaker 2: She says, Hi, my name is Zoe, I'm twenty two,
Speaker 2: and my friend's name is McKenna.
Speaker 1: She's twenty three.
Speaker 2: McKenna and I have been volunteering at a local animal
Speaker 2: shelter for five years now. We've also been roommates for
Speaker 2: two years. Once we got our own place, we met
Speaker 2: a pupp at the shelter and absolutely fell in love.
Speaker 2: We brought him home as a foster, but both of
Speaker 2: us knew we wouldn't be able to give him up.
Speaker 2: We adopted him and named him Billy. For two years,
Speaker 2: we've split all the vet bills, the adaption fee, other
Speaker 2: costs and responsibilities for Billy, and we both love him
Speaker 2: very much. We knew we weren't going to be able
Speaker 2: to live together forever and plan to work something out
Speaker 2: when things changed, Well, things changed. I got a job
Speaker 2: in a city that's five hours away. Understandably, neither of
Speaker 2: us wants to part with Billy, and since I'm the
Speaker 2: one moving, I do see McKenna's point that it might
Speaker 2: be more fair for her to keep him. That said,
Speaker 2: she's moving back in with her parents, who already have
Speaker 2: two dogs, and is a full time student.
Speaker 1: She's still a good.
Speaker 2: Dog mom and would care for him, but her parents
Speaker 2: would share their responsibility and she has two dogs at home.
Speaker 2: My new job would be hybrid remote, so I'd be
Speaker 2: in the office two days a week and home the
Speaker 2: other five to spend time with Billy. I've also looked
Speaker 2: into doggie daycare and walkers. I'm kind of nervous about
Speaker 2: moving to a new city on my own and would
Speaker 2: love to have Billy there with me. I expressed this
Speaker 2: to McKenna in conversation, and she brought up that since
Speaker 2: she signed the adoption papers, Billy is technically hers, so
Speaker 2: I can't take him. Since we're such good friends, I
Speaker 2: thought maybe there was a compromise to be made, as
Speaker 2: I was a bit taken aback, as this seemed harsh
Speaker 2: to me, like it could strain our friendship. In hindsight,
Speaker 2: we should have had more discussion on different scenarios of
Speaker 2: custody when we adopted Billy, but we were excited to
Speaker 2: have a dog, and we both still love him so much.
Speaker 2: We're at a bit of a stalemate, looking for an
Speaker 2: outside opinion to help us move forward. Zoe and McKenna, Well, I.
Speaker 5: Love couples counseling.
Speaker 3: This is right. This is hi girl, Hi, Hello, where's Billy?
Speaker 6: Billy is actually here?
Speaker 3: Do you want to see you billy.
Speaker 8: Me.
Speaker 2: I really, I see why you could get very sweet,
Speaker 2: Ni Kada.
Speaker 5: Where are you right now with your parents?
Speaker 6: Yes, I'm actually at my parents right now because we're
Speaker 6: having like a little family vacation. We're leaving to Kelowna tomorrow.
Speaker 1: So oh you're in Canada?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Oh, I love it. And so where did we move to? Which?
Speaker 1: Which city?
Speaker 6: She's moving to? Vancouver?
Speaker 3: Oh?
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: So what do you feel like you're going to miss
Speaker 3: emotionally if you don't have this dog.
Speaker 6: The support, Like, I feel like the emotional support. He's
Speaker 6: like my heart, my heart dog, my soul dog. And
Speaker 6: it's hard because we both love him so much.
Speaker 3: But what is it that you need emotional support for
Speaker 3: what's going on in your life?
Speaker 6: Just like school and life? And I actually I'm a
Speaker 6: dog walker, so I feel like my life works well
Speaker 6: with him, Like I am able to like take him
Speaker 6: out every day, and I am going back to school,
Speaker 6: but like I'll still have the time for him, and
Speaker 6: I always have prioritized him.
Speaker 3: Would you feel like you need somebody to support you
Speaker 3: right now? You feel like you're feeling stressed overwhelmed?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean I feel like I always have needed
Speaker 6: a dog, just because like I've never lived with a dog.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, Okay, do you feel a strain on your
Speaker 1: friendship right now because of this issue with your dog?
Speaker 6: I think we're doing a good job about like communicating
Speaker 6: about it and trying to like figure out what works best,
Speaker 6: but like, it definitely is hard to make that decision.
Speaker 1: And when you found out initially that she was moving,
Speaker 1: were your thoughts immediately like, oh, I'll be keeping the
Speaker 1: dog because you are the one who signed the papers.
Speaker 6: I mean, like, I think because it's been both of
Speaker 6: our responsibility and because we've both taken care of him,
Speaker 6: I don't really think it's fair to say that I
Speaker 6: get him because of the papers. But yeah, it's definitely
Speaker 6: hard to come to decision.
Speaker 3: But you sign the papers, right, Yes, I did. And
Speaker 3: you said it's not fair now to say because you
Speaker 3: signed the papers that you don't get.
Speaker 6: Him because we didn't really talk about it, like we
Speaker 6: never really had that discussion.
Speaker 3: But didn't you use the papers as a way to
Speaker 3: say that's why you should keep the dog?
Speaker 6: I mean yeah, but I also like feel bad because
Speaker 6: we are friends and like I don't have any hard
Speaker 6: feelings towards her, but it is But.
Speaker 3: You said it. Yeah, you said I got the papers
Speaker 3: and it's mine.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Was making you want a backtrack right now. It's because
Speaker 3: you know that that statement might have hurt your friend
Speaker 3: and could have damaged your friendship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, Hizai, we were just getting some backstory from Makada.
Speaker 1: We were getting some backstory about the dog and Karama
Speaker 1: is a.
Speaker 3: Question for you, So Zoe, when she said to you,
Speaker 3: I signed the papers, that's the bottom line. How did
Speaker 3: that make you feel?
Speaker 1: Not great?
Speaker 9: It was just kind of taken aback. That seemed too
Speaker 9: serious for our friendship. We've been friends for like ten
Speaker 9: years now, so that was kind of crazy. I thought
Speaker 9: we could kind of maybe discuss it or fine, maybe
Speaker 9: I could keep Billy till she's done school and then
Speaker 9: maybe reassess after a year. Just there was some I
Speaker 9: feel like there could be more solutions there. She only
Speaker 9: said at the one time. It hasn't really come.
Speaker 3: Out An's apologetic.
Speaker 1: No, I mean you want to get your friendship together.
Speaker 1: You guys want to maintain your friendship and figure out
Speaker 1: a solution. Can I ask you, Zoe, like, if you
Speaker 1: are moving to New City, what about getting another dog
Speaker 1: that is yours alone?
Speaker 9: I've thought about that, but it's just like I, you know,
Speaker 9: I've known this dog for two years now, adopted him
Speaker 9: when he was a puppy. And and McKenna, I know
Speaker 9: she feels the same too though, but we both just
Speaker 9: have that connection with Billy. So either one of us for.
Speaker 4: Both someone's going to be sad.
Speaker 9: I think for a bit, right.
Speaker 1: But is it a possibility for you to get another
Speaker 1: dog where you're moving?
Speaker 9: I think it. I guess it could be a possibility.
Speaker 9: I would prefer Billy, don't want to just replace him
Speaker 9: like that, but it would be a possibility, I guess.
Speaker 1: And what about you, McKenna, if you think about it,
Speaker 1: what about you rescuing another dog and having Billy live
Speaker 1: with her for a while. Would you be open to
Speaker 1: that or no?
Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, I think i'd be open to I
Speaker 6: don't know, like same with like I just feel like
Speaker 6: it's so tough because, like it is, he has been
Speaker 6: in my life for the past two years, and it's
Speaker 6: really hard to just like it would feel like I
Speaker 6: was replacing him.
Speaker 3: When you two lived together, Who's room did he sleep in?
Speaker 1: Usually?
Speaker 3: Mine? Okay?
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 9: Really he kind of switches enough sometimes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that makes sense. I have my verdict and I'm
Speaker 3: not a judge. Do we know? Do y'all know?
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about what kind of compromise can be made,
Speaker 1: and it doesn't seem like this is how I feel.
Speaker 1: You're moving. You're the one who's uprooting, right, So it
Speaker 1: is kind of not fair to assume that you get
Speaker 1: to take the dog because McKenna isn't the one that's
Speaker 1: leaving the situation. So I feel like it is tough
Speaker 1: because you did rescue the dog together, but you are
Speaker 1: the one that's changing where you live.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I do also want to ask, does Billy get along
Speaker 2: with your parents' dogs?
Speaker 4: Yes? Yeah he does.
Speaker 6: Okay, he's been around them quite a bit, so yeah,
Speaker 6: they get along super well.
Speaker 5: I mean other than flipping a coin. What do you think, Caramo.
Speaker 3: McKenna, you are the winner. Okay, you get the dog.
Speaker 3: I'm sorry. The thing is that it's all stacked in
Speaker 3: your favor. I'm a dog dad, just like you're a
Speaker 3: dog mom, and dogs will let you know who they
Speaker 3: want to sleep with. They will follow somebody around. The
Speaker 3: fact that he slept in your room was a big
Speaker 3: factor for me. But also on top of that, you
Speaker 3: also sign the papers. And then thirdly, like you said, Chelsea, Zoe,
Speaker 3: you're unfortunately the one that's uprooting. And so at this point,
Speaker 3: as much as I want to say emotionally I would
Speaker 3: love for you to have that support, I think it's
Speaker 3: better for you to grieve the relationship with the dog
Speaker 3: so that you can strengthen the relationship with your best friend,
Speaker 3: because at the point right now, you two having this
Speaker 3: disagreement when you're all about to move is going to
Speaker 3: cause dissension. And if y'all knowing each other since seven
Speaker 3: years old, the friendship is worth it more where you
Speaker 3: can see this dog in photos and then get your
Speaker 3: own dog versus you all going back and forth like
Speaker 3: this and you're losing something in that critical bond that
Speaker 3: makes you two so happy, you know, Like I'd rather
Speaker 3: you have mckennada talk to while you're moving and making
Speaker 3: this new transition in your life versus not having anyone
Speaker 3: closely to talk to because you feuded over a dog.
Speaker 1: And I also just think this is a really good opportunity, Zoe,
Speaker 1: for you to get your own dog. Like I mean,
Speaker 1: I know Billy was your dog, I get it, but
Speaker 1: you're moving and like you're moving into a new city.
Speaker 1: It's a perfect thing. It's a perfect occupier of your
Speaker 1: time to rescue another dog. You don't have to get
Speaker 1: a puppy and put in all that work. You can
Speaker 1: go to a rescue and pick out a new dog,
Speaker 1: because that's going to help you be more social. It's
Speaker 1: going to help you to meet people, and it's going
Speaker 1: to help you to feel safer in your house. And
Speaker 1: it's a great project, especially when you're new to a
Speaker 1: town and you don't know that many people. It's a
Speaker 1: great avenue. And I'm sure Billy is a comfort. But
Speaker 1: you've had all of this experience in the last two
Speaker 1: years of having a new dog, which is gearing you
Speaker 1: up to be ready for another new dog.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Zolle, We're sorry. I wish we could side, we
Speaker 3: could tell you, but I know we love you.
Speaker 8: We love you, Zoe.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say, you know, this will likely
Speaker 2: be forever, but not necessarily. You know, mckennay. You might
Speaker 2: move into an apartment a year or two from now
Speaker 2: where you're like, you know, I really want to live here,
Speaker 2: but they don't take dogs, you know, Zoe, is it
Speaker 2: it would be okay for you to take him, so
Speaker 2: you know, there could be something else down the line.
Speaker 1: But I agree with Chelsea.
Speaker 2: This is an opportunity for you to expand the amount
Speaker 2: of dogs that you're saving and dogs you have to
Speaker 2: give love to.
Speaker 1: So I may think about how many dogs out there
Speaker 1: need homes, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I mean, we also do work at a shelter together,
Speaker 6: So I.
Speaker 9: Think I want to take with you to go Maybe
Speaker 9: we could go together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, go together that I canna. I love that idea.
Speaker 1: Go together and find her her new dog, and then
Speaker 1: you can sign the paperwork on that dog too, McKenna,
Speaker 1: so that anytime you want the dog back and just
Speaker 1: take it.
Speaker 3: Zoe, I'm gonna tell you learn from your friend McKenna
Speaker 3: signed the paperwork. Okay, it's about the paperwork.
Speaker 2: Get those receipts, all right, girls, Thank you so much
Speaker 2: for calling in, and send us pics of your new
Speaker 2: dog when you get one.
Speaker 1: Bye bye bye. First of all, good problem solving, Caroma,
Speaker 1: Like you've really handled that, because I wasn't going to
Speaker 1: go that far, but we really actually made a decision
Speaker 1: for them and now they have to stick to it.
Speaker 1: It's like they went to the people's court.
Speaker 3: Well no, I mean Also, I'm pretty good at body
Speaker 3: language and I read it. It's something that I studied,
Speaker 3: and I could tell that McKenna's more anxious and has
Speaker 3: more of an anxious personality than Zoe does. And people
Speaker 3: with more anxious personalities normally do need compassion or and
Speaker 3: the companionship of a dog. So that's why I asked
Speaker 3: her where her emotional state was, because I can tell
Speaker 3: when Zoe came on she was smiling. Happy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now that's a good point.
Speaker 2: Yeah, really good point.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So this next email comes from Victoria.
Speaker 1: She's going to join us as well.
Speaker 2: Dear Chelsea, my life isn't a complete shit show, but
Speaker 2: like most people in the world, I do have a conundrum.
Speaker 2: I have two beautiful kids, a fiance, house, a job,
Speaker 2: a podcast, and a very active social life. No, I
Speaker 2: don't sleep. The only problem is I don't want to
Speaker 2: get married and I'd love to explore the bisexual side
Speaker 2: of myself. Sorry, not love to need to. I always
Speaker 2: knew I was bisexual, but I never explored it because
Speaker 2: I was never attracted to anyone in real.
Speaker 1: Life until well after college.
Speaker 2: I've hooked up with girlfriends here and there, but have
Speaker 2: never officially dated a woman first and foremost. I always
Speaker 2: knew I wanted to have kids, so now that I
Speaker 2: have them, I feel like I'm ready to fully explore
Speaker 2: that other side of me. Of course, the biggest hang
Speaker 2: up is my fiance. When I was in my twenties,
Speaker 2: I never had any issue breaking up with a significant other.
Speaker 2: As soon as I found something wrong, I'd cheat on
Speaker 2: them and start dating the person I cheated on them with.
Speaker 2: It honestly was probably one of my biggest downfalls, but
Speaker 2: my dad taught me to never settle, and I took
Speaker 2: those words to heart. When I told my fiance that
Speaker 2: I'm bisexual, he said he didn't mind if he was involved, shock,
Speaker 2: and we hopped on the dating apps. A month later,
Speaker 2: I was pregnant with our second child, so that ended
Speaker 2: abruptly and we haven't revisited it since. After I had
Speaker 2: the baby, we went to a friend's party a few
Speaker 2: months later, and I ended up cheating on him with
Speaker 2: a girl there while he was in the next room.
Speaker 2: I love my baby daddy a lot and care so
Speaker 2: much for his well being, but we started as platonic friends,
Speaker 2: and deep down, I feel like that's what he'll always be.
Speaker 2: We've discussed calling off the engagement many times, but men
Speaker 2: are so afraid of being alone. I feel like he's
Speaker 2: guilted me into staying. Oh, I know you've never had
Speaker 2: this exact situation, but you're a witty, smarty pant, so
Speaker 2: I'd love to hear if you have any advice. Obviously,
Speaker 2: I need to move on and explore this other side
Speaker 2: of me, but navigating that road with all of the
Speaker 2: baggage is hard.
Speaker 1: Victoria, Hi Victoria, Hi Victoria. Hey, this is our special guest.
Speaker 3: Caramo Victoria. We just heard your story and there was
Speaker 3: a lot that you're in tourmoil over right now?
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, yes, for sure.
Speaker 3: So I want to your father told you that you
Speaker 3: should never settle. Yeah, and what does that mean to you?
Speaker 4: I don't know. I mean, obviously, I feel like most
Speaker 4: dads probably think that no one is ever going to
Speaker 4: be good enough for their daughter. But I don't know.
Speaker 4: He said it to me pretty young, and I just
Speaker 4: took it to heart.
Speaker 3: And you know, do you think anybody's ever going to
Speaker 3: be good for you?
Speaker 4: I guess in what way?
Speaker 3: Okay, no, you laughed, Toby. What I need to know?
Speaker 4: I mean, obviously good enough to have kids with, which
Speaker 4: is a big freaking deal. All right, yeah, yeah, But
Speaker 4: as far as like marriage and like a legal financial
Speaker 4: commitment to someone, like, to me, that's scarier than having
Speaker 4: kids with someone.
Speaker 1: I hear you.
Speaker 5: I hear you on that front, and I respect that.
Speaker 1: I think that is I think that is also just
Speaker 1: a more contemporary way of looking at things.
Speaker 5: Also thinking about not settling.
Speaker 1: That is a good thing, and it can be a
Speaker 1: stupid thing, but I think overall it's a good thing
Speaker 1: to think that you have high value and that you're
Speaker 1: worth a lot. I mean, we should all be feeling
Speaker 1: that way about ourselves. It's pretty obvious that you want
Speaker 1: to explore women and you're attracted to women, and that
Speaker 1: the guy that you're having your children with isn't somebody
Speaker 1: that you're going to feel attracted to for a very
Speaker 1: long time. So getting into a marriage under those pretenses
Speaker 1: doesn't sound like an honest thing to do, So why
Speaker 1: would you, you know, and putting off breaking up an engagement,
Speaker 1: like freeing yourself from a situation, is also freeing the
Speaker 1: other person from the situation. Just because it's hurtful to
Speaker 1: them in the beginning doesn't mean you're not doing them
Speaker 1: a favor by living under this like false hope, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I would say to just be honest about
Speaker 1: where you are and that you're going to explore this
Speaker 1: side of you. He can figure out how he wants
Speaker 1: to handle that, but he deserves the truth so that
Speaker 1: he can make an educated decision, Like if you guys
Speaker 1: want to co parent, which you're going to have to
Speaker 1: do for the rest of your lives anyway, Right, you
Speaker 1: want to have respect for each other and you want
Speaker 1: to be honest with each other, and this is one
Speaker 1: of those major first steps. And being honest and respectful
Speaker 1: towards the other person is by sharing your truth and
Speaker 1: your desires, and they don't include marrying him. It doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it's just so tough. I don't know how
Speaker 4: to break it off because we have kids and house together.
Speaker 1: But you don't necessarily have to break it off, like
Speaker 1: you can say, hey, here's how I'm feeling. This is
Speaker 1: the situation. Think about how this makes you feel and
Speaker 1: if you would be able to be in a relationship
Speaker 1: with me while I was exploring this side of me,
Speaker 1: And when you're not involved, it's not necessarily going to
Speaker 1: be a threesome. Every time I'm interested in women. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe there's a guarantee of saying like I'm not going
Speaker 1: to be with men. You know, I'll tell you if
Speaker 1: that happens, it'll just be women. And that's what I'm
Speaker 1: looking to explore. I understand if you're not down with that,
Speaker 1: but I have to be honest out of respect for
Speaker 1: our relationship, and I think you'll probably get a bit
Speaker 1: of a different result than you're expecting.
Speaker 4: I don't know he I mean, he definitely. I don't
Speaker 4: know if he'd want to stay with me and let
Speaker 4: me go off and explore, because I've already tried to
Speaker 4: do that and it didn't work out really well. So
Speaker 4: I know for him it'll be better for him in
Speaker 4: the long run just to cut it off kind of
Speaker 4: as soon as possible, because there are other reasons why
Speaker 4: I feel like it's not going to work out, but
Speaker 4: this is one where he can't change. There's nothing he
Speaker 4: can do in this situation. It's kind of like something
Speaker 4: I have to do for myself. It's not like he
Speaker 4: did something stupid. I forgive him and we move past it.
Speaker 4: So I know in the long run it'll be better
Speaker 4: for him and he can go find someone he'll be
Speaker 4: happy with But it's just so hard because we have
Speaker 4: been best friends for such a long time.
Speaker 3: I think for you, because I agree with Chelsea. I
Speaker 3: agree everything she just said about the communication in this relationship,
Speaker 3: and I also believe that marriage shouldn't be for everyone.
Speaker 3: Like I used to be so gung ho on marriage
Speaker 3: and now I'm like, girl, you don't need that, Like
Speaker 3: that is so foolish. But what I'm most concerned with
Speaker 3: when it comes to you is that I think you're
Speaker 3: going to repeat this pattern whether you're with him or not.
Speaker 3: And the reason I'm saying that is because I'm watching
Speaker 3: you how you're rubbing your head every moment, saying this
Speaker 3: is hard, this is hard. That being hard is about
Speaker 3: something that's going on inside of you, and it started
Speaker 3: when your father's told you not to settle. And there's
Speaker 3: something that is lingering within you. Why you're not making
Speaker 3: choices or communicating about what you truly need and want.
Speaker 3: And now you're getting stuck into these relationships where you
Speaker 3: know you're not happy, and then you feel like it's
Speaker 3: hard to break it off for them, But really what's hard,
Speaker 3: it's that you're not willing to face what's really going on.
Speaker 3: In your heart sound a little right, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 4: Definitely in this situation. When I was in my twenties
Speaker 4: and I found something wrong with a guy at break
Speaker 4: up with them, no problem, but with kids involved, and
Speaker 4: since I have you know, I've been best friends with
Speaker 4: him forever. Like I feel like a lot of people
Speaker 4: are like, oh, you know, you should be best friends
Speaker 4: with someone for ten years and then date them, like
Speaker 4: your relationship will last so much longer. But for me,
Speaker 4: I feel like it's so much harder for me to
Speaker 4: break it off because we are such great friends and
Speaker 4: we've had years and memories.
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that's why he deserves your honesty.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I'm saying? This isn't about being
Speaker 1: hard or difficult. This is life. You're an adult, you
Speaker 1: have children, You're gonna have a lot of decisions that
Speaker 1: are hard or difficult, and the way to actually act
Speaker 1: with integrity is to face those difficult situations with as
Speaker 1: much honesty and grace as you can. And by avoiding it,
Speaker 1: you're putting your own happiness on the side, and you're
Speaker 1: actually doing the same to your partner because you're not
Speaker 1: being truthful to him and you're not as happy as
Speaker 1: you would be if you were free to roam around
Speaker 1: and pursue what you're more interested in pursuing, and there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with that. So you have a family, So
Speaker 1: there are many ways that this can resolve, Like he
Speaker 1: can agree to say okay, I will let you go
Speaker 1: and explore, or you can say no, this is like
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be comfortable with that, and you're like, Okay,
Speaker 1: we've been friends for this many years. We're going to
Speaker 1: make sure we're going to be friends for the rest
Speaker 1: of our lives because we have children and we're going
Speaker 1: to co parent. And what's Gwyneth Paltrow's favorite couple consciously unscious,
Speaker 1: consciously a couple. But don't be a pussy about it,
Speaker 1: because then you're just you're creating problems for everybody, including
Speaker 1: your children, because what they're going to see modeled for
Speaker 1: them is going to be you less than happy, or
Speaker 1: you holding secrets and him less than happy. And you
Speaker 1: don't want to expose your children to that. Anyway, you
Speaker 1: guys could have a great friendship for the rest of
Speaker 1: your life, and that would be more healthy for your
Speaker 1: children to see than a marriage that isn't truthful.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but there's something you need to face about yourself.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna keep telling you, and you're gonna get off
Speaker 3: this call because Chelsea is telling you how to handle
Speaker 3: the present situation perfectly. But what you're missing is you
Speaker 3: need to handle something within you. And I'm seeing it
Speaker 3: even as I ask you these things about you. You
Speaker 3: keep going back to kids, you keep going back to him,
Speaker 3: you keep going back to best friends, and you're not
Speaker 3: focused on you. There's something going on in you while
Speaker 3: you're repeating this pattern and while you're making this choice
Speaker 3: and why this is hard, there's something. Because it's really
Speaker 3: not that hard for you to communicate everything Chelsea's telling
Speaker 3: you do. You've already told him, you already tol him,
Speaker 3: I want to do this. He called you in the
Speaker 3: bedroom with somebody else, So you really have no issue
Speaker 3: with all that stuff. And there goes a smile, so
Speaker 3: you know that's true. You have no issue in communicating
Speaker 3: what you want. But there's some fear that's inside of
Speaker 3: you that you're not tackling. And I'm telling you, if
Speaker 3: we dissect what you said your father told you young,
Speaker 3: that you were still repeating to yourself whatever narrative he
Speaker 3: told you, you've turned into something way different, that it's
Speaker 3: causing fear, anxiousness, anxiety in you, that it is causing
Speaker 3: you not to be who you need to be for yourself,
Speaker 3: and it's now lingering into all these other relationships. If
Speaker 3: I had about another thirty minutes with you, we can
Speaker 3: figure that thing out.
Speaker 1: But we can't listen all right, Montel Williams, listen to him,
Speaker 1: he's like fucking lefts.
Speaker 3: Go okay, listen, do that soul searching.
Speaker 1: I think you gotta, yeah, you got, and you got
Speaker 1: to like face up to these difficult situations. I know
Speaker 1: it's hard, but you want to get some pussy, and
Speaker 1: there's nothing wrong with that, you know what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: what are you gonna do? Put your needs on hold?
Speaker 1: You're putting someone's needs on hold at every point, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. And that's okay in certain circumstances,
Speaker 1: but not for life decisions like this. And also you're
Speaker 1: not married, so that's a huge advantage too. You don't
Speaker 1: have to get divorced.
Speaker 2: Right, Still complicated, but it's less complicated. And you know,
Speaker 2: I kind of keep coming back to what Chelsea is saying,
Speaker 2: like you're wasting his time. But you're also wasting your time?
Speaker 4: She is, Yeah, for sure. I feel like I just
Speaker 4: need to put the hammer down and have like a
Speaker 4: more serious conversation with him because I have said, like,
Speaker 4: I want to break up with you for X Y
Speaker 4: reason like and he's just like no, no, like let's
Speaker 4: work it out, like he's pushing really hard to stay together,
Speaker 4: and I feel like I just need to be like no.
Speaker 1: Or Also, it's not that you have to break up
Speaker 1: in this moment, but you have to say I want
Speaker 1: to go pursue women, not with you. I'm interested in
Speaker 1: experimenting and seeing what's at there and I need the
Speaker 1: time to do that. If you're okay with doing that, great,
Speaker 1: If you're not, we need to talk about breaking up.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Are you afraid of being alone?
Speaker 4: No, I'm not being alone. I just I don't know.
Speaker 4: I know you're gonna yell at me for bringing up
Speaker 4: my kids again. No, I just picture like the kids
Speaker 4: if we move, if we move out, like I move
Speaker 4: out or he moves out, whatever, our four year old
Speaker 4: is definitely gonna be like, where's daddy, where's mommy? When
Speaker 4: are they coming back?
Speaker 3: So you're afraid of disappointing your family?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: See, I gotta figure it. There's some fear there, I'm
Speaker 3: telling you, even when she just said again, I'm gonna
Speaker 3: put that's.
Speaker 1: It's natural to want to not disappoint your four year old,
Speaker 1: But that's not a good reason either, Like aour year
Speaker 1: olds are resilient. Well, right, I hear what you're saying.
Speaker 1: But four year olds are resilient. People get divorced, They
Speaker 1: split up all the fucking time. Yes, there is a
Speaker 1: deeper issue within you that you're not able to face
Speaker 1: your problems in a way that is solution oriented. You know,
Speaker 1: there are a million solutions here, and you're just kind
Speaker 1: of leaning into just letting the status quo be the
Speaker 1: status quo and not making any move. You have to
Speaker 1: make a move, yeah, for sure, And especially with the
Speaker 1: warning like this, especially with saying, hey, I'm going to
Speaker 1: experiment with women. I'm curious about women. If you can't
Speaker 1: handle that, then we need to talk about splitting up.
Speaker 1: If he says he can handle that, then that gets
Speaker 1: you six months okay, And in six months time you're
Speaker 1: going to really know if that's who you want to
Speaker 1: be with, if you want to be with a woman.
Speaker 1: And then he's already had his serious talk and conversation,
Speaker 1: and then it's not coming out of the blue, like
Speaker 1: he can choose to stick around while you're experimenting with
Speaker 1: women that might make you even more turned on to him.
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going to happen with all of this.
Speaker 1: You don't know if you really want to be with women,
Speaker 1: if you're just bisexual or whatever. So you know you
Speaker 1: should give it like six months and just say, hey,
Speaker 1: I want to be as open and honest with you
Speaker 1: as possible about what I'm feeling and thinking about. And
Speaker 1: there's no argument with that. There's nothing he can say.
Speaker 1: You can't start. I don't want you thinking about women, Like,
Speaker 1: come on, you know there's nothing he can say about
Speaker 1: that other than I will tolerate this or I won't.
Speaker 1: And if he ends up moving out and your four
Speaker 1: year old ends up having to go between homes, your
Speaker 1: four year old will forget that you guys were together
Speaker 1: within six months. How that's how resilient children are at
Speaker 1: They won't even remember.
Speaker 2: Yeah, two happy homes is way better than one unhappy
Speaker 2: home where mom and dad are not really living their truth.
Speaker 4: Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2: Okay, and then you know, you get to split custody
Speaker 2: and you have time to go date.
Speaker 1: By the way, no one advertises that enough. When you
Speaker 1: split up with someone, the free time you get away
Speaker 1: from your kids should be like a banner for divorce,
Speaker 1: like you get a life again, you know, and then
Speaker 1: you can get all the pussy you want.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Alrighty okay, Victoria, all.
Speaker 5: Right, Victoria. I hope you liked getting yelled at today.
Speaker 4: I appreciate it. I need it. I need it.
Speaker 1: Okay, good, good, Okay, keep us posted. Thanks, thank you.
Speaker 1: He's trying to get to the bottom of the he's
Speaker 1: like trying to get a deeper issue. That's the longer.
Speaker 1: That's like a fucking.
Speaker 3: Four hour it is for me. It's just that when
Speaker 3: anytime I hear somebody's problems, this is for any problem.
Speaker 3: There's always something more. If any problem starts with I,
Speaker 3: it's I, I I. And so she can say about
Speaker 3: kids and all that. I'm a parent, I know all this.
Speaker 3: It's about you. And the thing that the reason I
Speaker 3: want people to understand, and this is for anybody listening.
Speaker 3: We say things to ourselves that we get our childhood,
Speaker 3: and we repeat them and they become bigger mountains in
Speaker 3: our heads. And that one about what her father said.
Speaker 3: She didn't need to write that in that's something that
Speaker 3: Scott said to you. And now it's plaguing you, and
Speaker 3: it's playing with your mind, and it's playing with how
Speaker 3: you see your world, how you see yourself, value, how
Speaker 3: you see And she's not focusing on that. She's like, oh,
Speaker 3: some mine want pleasing. It's not about that, you want
Speaker 3: to pu you already your man already cast you in
Speaker 3: the next bed with somebody else.
Speaker 1: I just wish everybody would fucking get some balls and
Speaker 1: leave a situation when they are not happy in the situation.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying. There's something, there's a fear she.
Speaker 1: Has, Yeah, but everybody has fears, everybody has everything. So like, yes,
Speaker 1: if you're a therapist, you have to get down to that,
Speaker 1: you know, the granular level and find out what the
Speaker 1: deal is. But if it's a problem that she's dealing with,
Speaker 1: well it's a result of that. But it's also like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's figure out this situation. Yeah, because even when you
Speaker 1: give her the advice, the answer she wants, she's still
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: Because she's not there. She's not ready to face it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: she's not ready to face it, and that's all. I
Speaker 3: was like, we could tell you all goddamn dataly this
Speaker 3: guy and be honest with them, and you know whatever.
Speaker 3: But she's she's going to repeat this pattern right after this.
Speaker 3: Even if she gets out of this, it's gonna happen again.
Speaker 3: She said she's been doing it at different degrees since college.
Speaker 1: I also wish people would just fucking make moves. Make
Speaker 1: moves like you have no idea how big and broad
Speaker 1: your life can be when you have the courage to
Speaker 1: say this isn't working for me, you know. And I
Speaker 1: know that's easy for me to say because I don't
Speaker 1: have children and I'm not married. But there are reasons
Speaker 1: I don't have children and I'm not married so that
Speaker 1: I make fucking make moves. Okay, I'm not. We're going
Speaker 1: to take a break and we'll be right back and
Speaker 1: we're back.
Speaker 2: Well, our next caller is John is twenty three and promo,
Speaker 2: you're sober right me?
Speaker 1: Yes, Fish sounds like it sounds ish ish, sounds like.
Speaker 3: I just don't like hard liquors. I don't don't. I'll
Speaker 3: drink it like a beer.
Speaker 2: Okay, all right, Well, John says, dear Chelsea, I'm a
Speaker 2: twenty three year old accountant who's been looking for inspiration
Speaker 2: in my sometimes boring life. I turned to ayahuasca and
Speaker 2: psychedelics for some more insight and life guidance. And while
Speaker 2: the first many times were great, I had my first
Speaker 2: horrible trip.
Speaker 1: For six hours straight.
Speaker 2: I felt like I was in hell, strapped to a rocket,
Speaker 2: being blasted by colorful geometry and scary entities that laughed
Speaker 2: at how scared I was. Needless to say, I will
Speaker 2: never be doing them again, and I'm committed to sobriety.
Speaker 2: I'm focusing on gratitude that I'm what.
Speaker 1: Drug was this? Iowa?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 8: Hello?
Speaker 2: But he says he's done five DM eot yeah and
Speaker 2: all that stuff. Okay, I'm focusing on gratitude and then
Speaker 2: I'm back and safe. And I didn't think I was
Speaker 2: going to come back from that house. But I'm lost
Speaker 2: as to how to move on from this. How do
Speaker 2: I interpret such an awful time? How should I go
Speaker 2: about leaving this behind me? I'm curious to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 1: John, Hi, John, this is Karma. We have a special
Speaker 1: guest today. Hello Karama.
Speaker 8: I've seen your show soank you appreciate it, love it
Speaker 8: a lot thank you.
Speaker 1: Okay, So you had a terrible ayahuasca experience.
Speaker 3: Yes, it was not.
Speaker 8: I'd like gotten some stuff from some friends and yeah,
Speaker 8: it just wasn't like it was tough. But I feel
Speaker 8: like it's like helped me become like a lot more
Speaker 8: grateful for a lot of different things.
Speaker 1: Well, that's not nothing.
Speaker 3: Have you ever done ayahuasca?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I did a special on it on Netflix where
Speaker 1: you can see me do ayahuasca. But first of all,
Speaker 1: that's a great gift that you got from it. Being
Speaker 1: more grateful and having more gratitude is already like a
Speaker 1: net plus. So you're acting like it was a terrible
Speaker 1: experience across the board, but you got something good out
Speaker 1: of it. So I think you should have gratitude for
Speaker 1: the gratitude. Yeah, and I definitely do.
Speaker 8: I think like for me, it just kind of has
Speaker 8: helped me realize I do kind of want to venture
Speaker 8: more into sobriety and just being more in tune with that.
Speaker 8: Might've had a lot of problems with like alcohol and
Speaker 8: just things like that throughout my life and then that
Speaker 8: kind of like just scared me away from everything in
Speaker 8: a lot of ways.
Speaker 1: That's good, but these are all good things. You're looking
Speaker 1: at this as a negative and how to move past it.
Speaker 1: These are good things. You're becoming more sober and you're
Speaker 1: saying drugs and alcohol are a problem in your life. Great,
Speaker 1: you are more grateful, Great, Like, these are good things
Speaker 1: that came out of ayahuasca.
Speaker 5: You're not looking at it from the right lens. I
Speaker 5: don't think.
Speaker 3: Are you afraid you're gonna lose friends? What's the hesitation? Then?
Speaker 1: Now? Oh?
Speaker 8: I think it was just it was genuinely like a
Speaker 8: horrible experience. I keep like going back to it thinking,
Speaker 8: I don't know, like I have kind of a lot
Speaker 8: of guilt about it, just because I'd done other things
Speaker 8: and I like.
Speaker 5: Thought it was what was horrible the visuals?
Speaker 8: Well, I remember how you Chelsea had said like you
Speaker 8: had done five meo and you just felt like it
Speaker 8: was like really like a tough visual experience, And that
Speaker 8: was definitely how I was feeling too. But it was
Speaker 8: also like the aspect of it just felt like very sinister,
Speaker 8: and I was not used to that either, Like at
Speaker 8: one point i'd like become like a cancer patient in
Speaker 8: a hospital. I just had this horrible feeling and all
Speaker 8: I could think of was it was like this voice
Speaker 8: telling me, like, there are so many other people out
Speaker 8: there that feel like this way all the time, and
Speaker 8: you need to be more grateful for what you're going
Speaker 8: through and things might be kind of boring or like
Speaker 8: tough in your life, but it was still just that
Speaker 8: like horrible, you know, feeling that like I'll never really
Speaker 8: be able to shake kind of it's just kind of
Speaker 8: I guess, really just being more grateful about my life
Speaker 8: in generals kind of what I got out of it,
Speaker 8: I guess.
Speaker 1: But have you ever done AMDR therapy?
Speaker 8: I have never done that.
Speaker 1: Now, Okay, well that's a really good thing because that
Speaker 1: really focuses on a traumatic event that is bothering you,
Speaker 1: and then you live through that event again without having
Speaker 1: the same feelings that you had the first time. It's
Speaker 1: like electro I forget what it stands for, electromagnetic whatever, AMDT,
Speaker 1: AMDR AMDR movement desensitization and repass. Good, there we go,
Speaker 1: And Okay, so you could go to a therapist and
Speaker 1: do that and work specifically on that. And the other
Speaker 1: thing I would say is that sinister vibe and all
Speaker 1: of those things you're feeling you can look at as
Speaker 1: a representation of what your life would have become had
Speaker 1: you continued using drugs and alcohol.
Speaker 3: H Okay, that's fair.
Speaker 1: That is a good wake up call, and you should
Speaker 1: look at it and frame it in your mind like, oh,
Speaker 1: that was what I would have become if I hadn't
Speaker 1: woken up.
Speaker 3: Agreed.
Speaker 4: Okay, Yeah, that's a good way to look at.
Speaker 5: It, because you're moving forward in a new way.
Speaker 1: That's the past. It happened, it woke you up, and
Speaker 1: you're moving forward. There's no reason to let that experience
Speaker 1: haunt you. If anything, it turns the corner for you
Speaker 1: in a very positive way. Yeah, for sure, I see
Speaker 1: that too.
Speaker 8: I think it's just like still kind of the struggle
Speaker 8: of regular living, and you know, I still kind of
Speaker 8: want to go back to it a little bit, But
Speaker 8: then I do like it is kind of a nice toolbox.
Speaker 3: So you don't trust yourself that you will make this
Speaker 3: decision and stay on this.
Speaker 1: Path, I think I will, think.
Speaker 3: But you're struggling. There's a bit of you that doesn't
Speaker 3: trust yourself. I could see it in the hesitation and
Speaker 3: how you just put your head up.
Speaker 1: I know, but I trust you. I trust you too,
Speaker 1: and I think that that situation is your reminder to
Speaker 1: trust yourself to stay on the right path. It is
Speaker 1: that situation is going to be useful tool for you
Speaker 1: moving forward in life. When you are tempted to get
Speaker 1: back into drugs and alcohol, you need to look at
Speaker 1: that and be like, I don't ever want to feel
Speaker 1: that way again. And that was your wake up call,
Speaker 1: and that was your warning call, and I trust that
Speaker 1: you will move forward in the right way.
Speaker 8: Okay, I know I will for sure. Thank you for
Speaker 8: saying that. That's kind of sense as the deal.
Speaker 1: So okay, great, then let's end this conversation here.
Speaker 2: You got it right, you got this, Thanks John.
Speaker 1: Okay, bye John, Bye, guys. Well this was beautiful. You
Speaker 1: were great. I mean you are. You're Montel Williams for sure.
Speaker 1: We're across between doctor Phil Montell and who's the other guy,
Speaker 1: Jerry Springer. No Springer, that's too trashy. I like how
Speaker 1: you get to the heat of the d You're like,
Speaker 1: what is really going on? I'm like, we don't have
Speaker 1: time for that. We don't fucking have time for what's
Speaker 1: really going on. We have to take another caller. No,
Speaker 1: you're a delight. Thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you've been in both of my LA homes.
Speaker 3: I know, excited.
Speaker 1: We'll have to get you to more.
Speaker 3: I would love to love that.
Speaker 1: Thanks Carramo. You can watch him on his show, which
Speaker 1: is a national syndicated talk show on during the day
Speaker 1: different times, but it's called Carramo and also on Queer Eye.
Speaker 5: Thank you for being here.
Speaker 3: Thank you.
Speaker 1: I was just kissing into the microphone. Goodbye everybody. Okay,
Speaker 1: So upcoming shows that I have you, guys, I'm coming
Speaker 1: to Texas. I'm coming to Saint Louis and Kansas City,
Speaker 1: and then I will be in Las Vegas performing at
Speaker 1: the Chelsea Theater inside the Cosmopolitan Hotel. My first three
Speaker 1: dates in Vegas are September first, Labor Day weekend, and
Speaker 1: then November two and November thirtieth. I'm coming to Brooklyn,
Speaker 1: New York, at the King's Theater on November eighth, and
Speaker 1: I have tickets on sale throughout the end of the
Speaker 1: year in December, so if you're in a city like
Speaker 1: Philadelphia or Bethlehem, or San Diego or New Orleans.
Speaker 5: Or Omaha, check Chelseahandler dot com for tickets.
Speaker 2: Okay, if you'd like advice from Chelsea shoot us an
Speaker 2: email at Dear Chelsea podcast at gmail dot com and
Speaker 2: be sure to include your phone number.
Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea is edited
Speaker 2: And engineered by Brad Dickert executive producer Catherine Law and
Speaker 2: be sure to check out our merch at Chelseahandler dot
Speaker 2: com