Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet, as a production
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridgett and this is
Speaker 1: there Are No Girls on the Internet. I am here
Speaker 1: with my producer, Joey. Joey, thank you for being here.
Speaker 2: Hi, britsch It, thank you for having.
Speaker 1: Me, Joey. How is your week going?
Speaker 2: Oh that's better?
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 3: I could not talk for the first half of this week,
Speaker 3: which is not fine. But my voice is back, which
Speaker 3: is great. Then go in good sense then, so we'll
Speaker 3: see where it goes.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad it's back. It is sounding smooth and great.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 1: Let's use that voice to talk about some of these
Speaker 1: new stories from the Internet that y'all might have missed.
Speaker 1: So if you listen to this week there Are No
Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet. When you heard all about Ashton
Speaker 1: Kutcher's anti trafficking organization Thorn, So if you listen to
Speaker 1: that episode, then you know that social media platforms do
Speaker 1: not often allow adult content from humans because of legislation
Speaker 1: like sta FOSTA. Social media platforms really crack down even
Speaker 1: harder than they already were on anyone posting content that
Speaker 1: involves sexuality on their platforms because of how that legislation
Speaker 1: really broadly interprets sexual content. Basically, you can't post anything
Speaker 1: related to sexuality and like that that definition is very
Speaker 1: broad and it just sort of leaves up to the
Speaker 1: platforms like what they think might be considered sexual content
Speaker 1: or not. So anything that people post that even obliquely
Speaker 1: references sexual content, very often it's closely monitored and gets
Speaker 1: taken down with this.
Speaker 3: Where this was remember the like Tumblr porn band, like
Speaker 3: a couple of years back.
Speaker 1: Oh yes, I think about it all the time.
Speaker 3: Like that was because of this, right, this was like yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: which is so funny because I don't think Tumblr has
Speaker 3: been relevant since then, which I don't know which.
Speaker 1: No, Tumblr has not been relevant since then, And it
Speaker 1: really had a broad like broad consequences for the Internet, right,
Speaker 1: like completely restructured the Internet landscape. I have argued this
Speaker 1: is just my take, so like take that for what
Speaker 1: it's worth. I have argued that I think that was
Speaker 1: the beginning and a couple of other things, but Tumblr
Speaker 1: banning sexual content and adult content was the beginning of
Speaker 1: sort of that kind of existential question of like what
Speaker 1: is the Internet for being answered with like, well, it's
Speaker 1: to make money. Right, And so if like if Tumblr
Speaker 1: has to ban sexual or adult content in order to
Speaker 1: make money, then it's like, well, is this is the
Speaker 1: Internet really for community building or connecting with each other
Speaker 1: or finding information about identity? No, it's about making corporations money. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So huge implications for the entire restructuring of the Internet
Speaker 1: that we still feel today. So even though social media companies,
Speaker 1: thanks to legislation like Cesta Fasta, really cracked down on
Speaker 1: and closely monitor sexual content, that might actually not be
Speaker 1: the case when it comes to AI generated sexual content
Speaker 1: because NBC did an investigation that found that startups are
Speaker 1: explicit advertisements for AI generated adult content on TikTok, Instagram,
Speaker 1: and Facebook. So this investigation found that about thirty five
Speaker 1: app developers are running sexually explicit ads on apps owned
Speaker 1: by all of those social media companies. The app developers
Speaker 1: are running more than one thousand ads, and all many
Speaker 1: of them easily discoverable and viewable from Meta's online library
Speaker 1: of ads, which the public has access to. There were
Speaker 1: fourteen app developers running hundreds more sexually provocative ads on TikTok,
Speaker 1: and BC News found this is a little bit weird
Speaker 1: for some reason. A lot of the ads use memes
Speaker 1: that include like popular children's television characters. Like I saw
Speaker 1: one ad that was like cookie Monster making a face
Speaker 1: and it's like that face when you don't know that
Speaker 1: you could be having a virtual girlfriend, a virtual AI
Speaker 1: girlfriend who meets all your needs, And I was like,
Speaker 1: why would Cookie Monster want a virtual Cookie Monster is
Speaker 1: very clear about what he wants, its cookies. It's not
Speaker 1: an AI generated ritual girlfriends. I think it's just cookies.
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, that's so weird. You know what this is
Speaker 3: making me think of, too, is like remember all those
Speaker 3: like which I guess you still have. But there's the
Speaker 3: whole thing about like the weird Papa bads that'll come
Speaker 3: up that are like especially for like video games like
Speaker 3: online heaus, when there's a lot of like video A
Speaker 3: characters like you know, very sexually provocative kind of things,
Speaker 3: and it's interesting this is sort of a direction. Damn Yeah,
Speaker 3: like memes like children's TV show memes. That's that's that's interesting.
Speaker 1: It's exactly that, right, Like oftentimes they have like like
Speaker 1: like kind of teenager looking young women in like anime style.
Speaker 1: So I definitely think that for whatever reason, they are
Speaker 1: gearing it toward younger audiences because of the heavy use
Speaker 1: of like SpongeBob and cookie Monster and anime girls.
Speaker 2: But I don't know, I think, I mean, I hope
Speaker 2: it's I don't know. I'm willing to say.
Speaker 3: I don't think that's totally gartory younger audiences. I think
Speaker 3: there's unfortunately some probably older adults, adult men for the
Speaker 3: most part, they're trying to get.
Speaker 2: With that kind of stuff too. But yeah, wow, that's
Speaker 2: that's interesting.
Speaker 1: It's it's very it's very interesting. So NBC reported that
Speaker 1: this is all part of a larger push to mine
Speaker 1: people who might be interested in AI generated content in general,
Speaker 1: but also adult content. NBC says the marketing push is
Speaker 1: part of an AI gold rush and which app developers,
Speaker 1: most of them based abroad, are mining customers who are
Speaker 1: interested in sexual or romantic connections with digital characters. It's
Speaker 1: part of a larger movement to capitalize on the surge
Speaker 1: of interest in AI following the popularity of tech startup
Speaker 1: open AI's chat GPT products, which reset expectations for what
Speaker 1: AI chatbots are capable of. So these developers are basically like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: if an AI chatbot can like write your term paper,
Speaker 1: or you know, write a legal brief. Maybe it could
Speaker 1: also be your romantic partner or your sexual partner, and
Speaker 1: maybe there are people who are interested in that and
Speaker 1: let's find, let's like early on mine who those people
Speaker 1: are so we can sell this kind of content to them.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I it's you know, I'm not surprised, Like I feel
Speaker 3: like this is always sort of going to be like,
Speaker 3: but there's some I can't remember what it is. There's
Speaker 3: some like thing that's like everything on the internet, Like
Speaker 3: there's some porn version of it or whatever. It's like, Yeah,
Speaker 3: which I like, It's it's not surprising like that that's
Speaker 3: just sort of been where like humanity and the Internet
Speaker 3: is gone.
Speaker 2: But yeah, huh AI girlfriend.
Speaker 1: AI girlfriends And so what's what's also kind of interesting
Speaker 1: about this is this push has also hurt real human
Speaker 1: sex workers who were already surveiled and targeted for what
Speaker 1: they post online. Sex workers are not allowed to make
Speaker 1: money off of their image. But some tech bro who's
Speaker 1: creating a similar AI image is that's from Carolina Are,
Speaker 1: a resource fellow at Northumbria University and the Center Traditional
Speaker 1: Citizens in the United Kingdom.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that seems like the problem because I don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean, if you want to have a romantic relationship
Speaker 3: with like an AI thing or a face, you know, robot,
Speaker 3: that's fine, whatever you do you I don't care. But like,
Speaker 3: sex workers are still criminalized for doing the same work.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think you're your like apprehension and sort of.
Speaker 1: I just it just feels not great to think that
Speaker 1: a human sex worker, sex workers are already marginalized online,
Speaker 1: is further criminalized and surveilled for posting their likeness on
Speaker 1: social media platforms. But if some tech bro wanted to
Speaker 1: make money generate revenue off of something similar, they could
Speaker 1: and like they might, they might not be surveilled as
Speaker 1: as closely certainly would not be criminalized for it the
Speaker 1: way that sex workers are. And so I think it
Speaker 1: raises some questions about equity and about you know, the
Speaker 1: like who was allowed to do what in this new
Speaker 1: sort of technology facilitated world that we live in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's so that.
Speaker 3: I there's so many concerning things that could come out
Speaker 3: of this, and I'm sure you're gonna explain more of that.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So one thing to note is that, as you were
Speaker 1: kind of alluding to before, these AI generated characters are
Speaker 1: traditionally sexy kind of looking young women, and it's clear
Speaker 1: that they are targeting men in these ads, which adds
Speaker 1: to this double standard that we see a lot in
Speaker 1: technology and on social media, where sexual content that is
Speaker 1: geared toward heterosexual men is kind of okay on social
Speaker 1: media platforms. Are says that she believes that this all
Speaker 1: reflects a gender biased slant. Social media platforms freely allow
Speaker 1: sex related ads only if the intended audience is men.
Speaker 1: Hundreds of ads appear to come close to the crossing
Speaker 1: the line of what Meta or TikTok would say that
Speaker 1: they would not allow in advertising. Now. Meta's advertising standards
Speaker 1: say that ads must not contain adult content, including depictions
Speaker 1: of people in explicit or suggestive positions or activities that
Speaker 1: are overtly sexual or sexual sexually provocative. They also say
Speaker 1: that ads cannot focus on quote sexual pleasure. But here's
Speaker 1: where the gender bias aspect comes in. If we've talked
Speaker 1: about this in another newscast, that report from the Center
Speaker 1: for Intimacy Justice that found, for instance, that Facebook ads
Speaker 1: allowing things like biagra are fine, but then Facebook rejects
Speaker 1: ads related to the sexual health of anybody who is
Speaker 1: not a CIS gender man. Right, So like the ads
Speaker 1: for pelvic pain or postpartum issues are are rejected because
Speaker 1: Facebook says, oh, well, those relate to sexual pleasure. But
Speaker 1: then sexual wellness or sexual health ads that are for
Speaker 1: CIS men are those are something else? Like it's like
Speaker 1: like who's sexual? Now, whose sexual wellness do you consider?
Speaker 1: You know about pleasure and thus disallowed, and who's do
Speaker 1: you consider, Like, oh, well, that's a health or a
Speaker 1: medical issue. So that's fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's so messed up.
Speaker 3: That makes me so mad, especially, I mean it's it's
Speaker 3: so obvious. There's so many you know, we could have
Speaker 3: a whole conversation about like gender bias and like the
Speaker 3: medical system in general. But it's it's so hard as
Speaker 3: somebody with somebody with the uterists to get your your problems,
Speaker 3: to take it seriously, your medical health, your your medical
Speaker 3: problems taken seriously, particularly when it comes to.
Speaker 2: Like sexual health.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and and some of it has nothing to do
Speaker 3: with sex, some of it has it's just you know,
Speaker 3: the organs that are in your body. There's also this
Speaker 3: is ironic because I just I keep getting Hulu ads
Speaker 3: for like male health supplements in particular, and a lot
Speaker 3: of it has to do with like a rectile dysfunction
Speaker 3: and stuff. I don't need that because I don't have
Speaker 3: those parts.
Speaker 2: I don't know why.
Speaker 3: Hulu thinks that I do, but it's it's it's weird.
Speaker 2: I this.
Speaker 3: The dots are connecting because I do keep getting these ads,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, why I this? You should be putting
Speaker 3: your your advertising money somewhere else, parent, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's soad somebody, somebody is doing some frivolous spending with
Speaker 1: their ad dollars. But it's interesting because like, like I
Speaker 1: don't get ads targeted I mean ads targeted to women's
Speaker 1: and like like non cis men sexual wellness products. So
Speaker 1: if you're non binary, a lot of a lot of
Speaker 1: platforms don't allow for anything that's related to like what
Speaker 1: you might be looking for in terms of sexual almost
Speaker 1: or sexual health. Yet it's it's just very clearly clear
Speaker 1: that somebody has made a decision about whose sexual wellness
Speaker 1: is like quote valid and whose isn't. And it's very
Speaker 1: clear that the in the is bucket is cis men,
Speaker 1: and those are the products that you are allowed to
Speaker 1: advertise on social media platforms.
Speaker 2: Patriarchy is real.
Speaker 1: You know, it is real. It is insidious, and also
Speaker 1: it is wasting. The ads bends.
Speaker 3: Every time I got on all the sides, I'm like,
Speaker 3: I I gotta work in media. I get kind of
Speaker 3: how this works. I'm like, what what is the point
Speaker 3: of it if you're collecting all my data where we're
Speaker 3: not using it correctly? Apparently right, it's so weird.
Speaker 1: Meta said, our policies prohibit ads containing adult content that
Speaker 1: it's overly suggestive or sexually provocative, whether it's AI generated
Speaker 1: or not. Our policies and enforcement are designed to adapt
Speaker 1: in this highly adversarial space, and we actively monitor new
Speaker 1: trends in AI generated content. But they did not answer
Speaker 1: NBC's questions about, if that is the case, how these
Speaker 1: ads got through in the first place. Meta only removed
Speaker 1: them after NBC reached out for the article. So I
Speaker 1: guess the question really is, like, why are human sex
Speaker 1: workers or humans who want to post anything related to
Speaker 1: sexuality cracked down on and surveiled so strictly when it
Speaker 1: kind of seems like AI generated content that is sexual
Speaker 1: is enforced less. So like, I don't know they answer
Speaker 1: to that question, but it definitely seems like social media
Speaker 1: platforms might be putting a little more scrutiny on humans
Speaker 1: than they are when that content it's AI generated.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is such a like extreme version.
Speaker 3: Two of the way that like quote unquote like female bodies,
Speaker 3: women's bodies are so hyper sexualized and so like it's
Speaker 3: so normalized that there's something to be consumed and something
Speaker 3: to be like you know, yeah, something to be consumed.
Speaker 3: Were like, yeah, again, if it were the opposite, and
Speaker 3: I'm sure if there were like ads with again quote
Speaker 3: unquote male bodies not trying to enforce the gender binary here,
Speaker 3: but like if those were being used, it probably would
Speaker 3: have been cracked down on way sooner or way more harshly.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's it's it is scary. It is scary
Speaker 2: to see that. Like AI is kind of one of.
Speaker 3: The other ways is it's just kind of like messing
Speaker 3: with these power structures. Is that it's like like the
Speaker 3: sex workers that would be you know, benefiting from the
Speaker 3: labor that they're doing at least to some extent, and
Speaker 3: it is labor that they're doing, Uh, that can be
Speaker 3: like pushed aside so easily, and that that can that
Speaker 3: kind of codification can be recreated in a way that
Speaker 3: you don't actually have to compensate workers. And it's almost
Speaker 3: like all of this is stemming from the same problem.
Speaker 1: But you know very well put and yeah, I just
Speaker 1: think there's as you put it so aptly, it's interesting
Speaker 1: to me how I guess like quote like the female
Speaker 1: form like like not again not to like reinforce that binary,
Speaker 1: but like what we understand online is like quote like
Speaker 1: the female form is only really allowed when it is
Speaker 1: being consumed when like when like it's not a sex
Speaker 1: worker posting their image online to get compensated for that,
Speaker 1: you know, in an exchange of like services for money.
Speaker 1: Absolutely not if it's a tech bro who is creating
Speaker 1: this like fantasy AI chatbop girlfriend or something for other
Speaker 1: men to consume. It feels like that is in a
Speaker 1: completely different sphere than when someone has agency over their sexuality.
Speaker 1: It is using that because they in a way that
Speaker 1: they want you to compensate from it. Like, it's just
Speaker 1: very interesting to me what and how much power platforms
Speaker 1: have in determining that, like what is and is not okay,
Speaker 1: what is and is not allowed? What is and is
Speaker 1: not like quote sexual content, what what sexual content is
Speaker 1: or is not valid. It's so interesting to me how
Speaker 1: much power platforms have to shape these things. And I
Speaker 1: would argue, way too much power.
Speaker 2: Yeah, final note, I guess I keep thinking of what
Speaker 2: I always say.
Speaker 3: One of my favorite comedies ex Machina, which is a
Speaker 3: great movie about you know, the tech bro Cubris. I
Speaker 3: would say, I'm not gonna spoil the ending, but if
Speaker 3: you see the ENDGA movie.
Speaker 1: It's, oh my god, it's I joke, I almost feel it.
Speaker 1: Please you haven't, please watch it. I recreate the ending
Speaker 1: in my household all the time as a joke. Not
Speaker 1: not really you've seen the movie in what I'm talking about,
Speaker 1: but like that is a that is an often referenced
Speaker 1: movie in my home.
Speaker 3: I know, I like, and again it is it is
Speaker 3: one of those movies where it's it's the extremes of
Speaker 3: this that it is like it is genuinely terrifying. I
Speaker 3: think to watch and see the extremes this. But again,
Speaker 3: the ending I think perfectly ties it together. Is a
Speaker 3: perfect sort of like good for her narrative, as I
Speaker 3: like to say, And you know, maybe maybe maybe reality
Speaker 3: will reflect art.
Speaker 2: We'll see I.
Speaker 1: Oh well, we could only hope complete complete side note
Speaker 1: complete like left turn no signal. Have you seen the
Speaker 1: movie Fire Island on Hulu? Yes? Do you remember the
Speaker 1: part where they're playing the game heads Up? It's like
Speaker 1: the best scene in the movie, and that he's trying
Speaker 1: to get the clue for Marisaitome and he's like, uh, Alexandravacander,
Speaker 1: like Alexandro of the Candor. You don't remember Marisitome, but
Speaker 1: you remember Alexandra Pacandor she was great and ex Makina.
Speaker 1: It's my favorite scene. Anyway, this is like all.
Speaker 3: The Rails, great movie, another great movie. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: cultural masterpieces.
Speaker 1: Oh that's a good way.
Speaker 2: To be here.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break. That are back. Okay, So,
Speaker 1: speaking of legislation that can powerfully reshape the Internet, I
Speaker 1: have a little bit of news on the Kids Online
Speaker 1: Safety Act front, and that is that this week one
Speaker 1: hundred parents of trans youth wrote a letter to senators
Speaker 1: and all organizations who support the Kids Online Safety Act,
Speaker 1: saying that it would make their kids less safe. The
Speaker 1: letter is. The whole letter is worth a read, but
Speaker 1: here's some a good bit of it. They write, we
Speaker 1: hold deep sympathy for parents whose kids have been harmed
Speaker 1: by big tech social media companies and their abusive business practices.
Speaker 1: Our kids have also been harmed by these companies greed,
Speaker 1: their addictive design, their intrusive surveillance, their failure to address
Speaker 1: online hate, bullying, and abuse. But legislation that the Kids
Speaker 1: Online Safety Act would make our kids less safe, not
Speaker 1: more safe. It would grant extraordinary new power to right
Speaker 1: wing state attorneys general to dictate which content young users
Speaker 1: can see on social media, cutting our kids off from
Speaker 1: life saving online resources and community. These are the same
Speaker 1: attorneys general that are actively working to ban gender performing
Speaker 1: healthcare that saves kids' lives, criminalizing drag performances, and label
Speaker 1: families that accept our children as groomers and child abusers.
Speaker 1: KOSA would also incentivize big tech platforms to engage in
Speaker 1: even more intrusive data collection, which disproportionately puts trans kids
Speaker 1: and their families at risk. And as more and more
Speaker 1: states strip us of our rights and criminalize our kids'
Speaker 1: health care, education, and vary existence, the whole letter is
Speaker 1: definitely worth a read. Like I really applaud these parents
Speaker 1: for sending this letter and for sticking up for their
Speaker 1: kids in this way, I will say parents, These parents
Speaker 1: are not wrong for being concerned about this. Like it's
Speaker 1: kind of one of those things where it's like when
Speaker 1: somebody tells you who they are, believe them. I feel
Speaker 1: like some of the organizations who are behind this legislation
Speaker 1: and who are supportive of this legislation have really been
Speaker 1: pretty I would argue, pretty clear about how they feel
Speaker 1: about trans folks and how they are planning to use
Speaker 1: this legislation as a way to further censor lgbtqu content
Speaker 1: and label that as a threat to youth. The same
Speaker 1: thing that we were talking before about how when legislation
Speaker 1: that is about changing the Internet to protect kids, oftentimes
Speaker 1: they will label content harmful, but like have a pretty
Speaker 1: broad definition of what that harm is, just leaving it
Speaker 1: up to platforms or attorneys general to decide what is harmful.
Speaker 1: And so Family Policy Alliance, a conservative group, asked Senator
Speaker 1: Marsha Blackburn, who is one of the senators who introduced
Speaker 1: the Kids Online Safety Act, about what she thought were
Speaker 1: the top issues impacting us today. And here's what she had.
Speaker 5: To say, Protecting minor children from the transgender and this
Speaker 5: culture and that influence. And I would add too that
Speaker 5: watching what's happening on social media, and I've got the
Speaker 5: Kids Online Safety Act that I think we're going to
Speaker 5: end up getting through probably this summer. This would put
Speaker 5: a duty of care and responsibility on the social media platforms.
Speaker 5: And this is where children are being indoctrinated. They're hearing
Speaker 5: things at school and then they're getting onto YouTube to
Speaker 5: watch a video, and all of a sudden, this comes
Speaker 5: to them and they're on Snapchat or they're on Instagram
Speaker 5: and they click on something and the next thing you know,
Speaker 5: they're being inundated with it. Parents need to be watched this.
Speaker 5: Teachers need to be watching and protecting our children and
Speaker 5: making certain that they are not exposed to things to
Speaker 5: say are emotionally not mature enough to handle.
Speaker 3: See this vi imediate response is just like rage too.
Speaker 3: It is like a combination of like this is the.
Speaker 2: It's enraging every time every time I.
Speaker 3: Hear the transgender I'm like, yeah, what, like I that's
Speaker 3: so the transgender the singular transgender.
Speaker 2: It is Oh my god, I don't.
Speaker 1: Even yeah, nothing says that, like you just from the
Speaker 1: way that she refers to trans folks, it's like pretty
Speaker 1: It's like pretty clear from like even intonation, Like what
Speaker 1: what she thinks like how she feels, Like I said, like,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, anybody who watches that clip, I feel
Speaker 1: like it's clear how Marcia Blackburn feels. I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't feel like she's making any making it confusing for
Speaker 1: us to understand what she's what she's trying to say
Speaker 1: and how she feels.
Speaker 2: Right, it's a kain with this legislation.
Speaker 3: It's so it makes me so angry and I try to,
Speaker 3: you know, and this is the thing that I think
Speaker 3: sucks about this kind of stuff, and sucks about a
Speaker 3: lot of this stuff that's coming from the right. It's
Speaker 3: like there's no way to like argue at them that
Speaker 3: it's like this is wrong. And I think, again, the
Speaker 3: thing that sucks is the majority of the everyday people
Speaker 3: that are going to see this and be like, I
Speaker 3: support it. It's because they just see the the you know,
Speaker 3: headline of this is gonna make the Internet safer for kids,
Speaker 3: and not actually looking at what they're saying. But it
Speaker 3: is so obvious whenever they open their mouths to speak
Speaker 3: about this that it is it has nothing to do
Speaker 3: with keeping kids safe.
Speaker 2: You're making it.
Speaker 3: You're you're arguably creating a not even arguably, you are
Speaker 3: creating a less safe environment for kids, because like, yeah,
Speaker 3: if you're creating an environment where it is it is
Speaker 3: not safe for kids to come out to their parents
Speaker 3: and is not save for kids to like express their
Speaker 3: true identity, that's dangerous.
Speaker 2: That is going to lead to kids dying.
Speaker 3: It's just it's so infuriating, and at the same time,
Speaker 3: it's like the hell, like, you're such a fucking idiot.
Speaker 2: I Like, I don't know what helse to say. It's
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, kind of the transgender injocrination.
Speaker 5: Like.
Speaker 3: A lot of these people are also again it's like
Speaker 3: the Christian nationalist right where it's like, no, y'all are
Speaker 3: the ones that do that shit? You're all are the
Speaker 3: ones indoctrinating, Like I don't. I've never had somebody try
Speaker 3: to convince me that I'm trans or queer or whatever.
Speaker 2: It's usually the opposite.
Speaker 3: Actually, again, it is so mask off. It is so
Speaker 3: they're not even like they're not hiding. They're not hiding
Speaker 3: with the intentions of this bill are and that is
Speaker 3: the frustrating part about all of this.
Speaker 1: But yeah, this legislation, I mean, I really like went
Speaker 1: through an evolution where I was like because I for
Speaker 1: the longest time was like, oh, we need to do something,
Speaker 1: like you know, I know how much tech companies harm kids,
Speaker 1: and like when this legislation was introduced, I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: maybe they're doing something. And all that took was like
Speaker 1: sitting like I basically it urged people to like look
Speaker 1: and see what is actually in the legislation. Like it
Speaker 1: took me sitting down and like going through it and
Speaker 1: being like, wait a minute, this is not good. I
Speaker 1: don't think this is going to serve its intended purpose.
Speaker 1: And I can pretty clearly, just like with Sessta Basta,
Speaker 1: I can pretty clearly see like what this kind of
Speaker 1: legislation could lead to on top of people like Marcia
Speaker 1: Blackburn and the Heritage Foundation openly saying what they are
Speaker 1: planning on using it for which spoiler alert, it's like
Speaker 1: cracking down on LGBTQ content. Yeah, And Senator Blackburn after
Speaker 1: this interview, her legislative director was like, no, the Senator
Speaker 1: was taken out of context. First of all, I don't
Speaker 1: know how just being asked a question and then the
Speaker 1: whole answer unedited from beginning to end is like what
Speaker 1: you see. I don't know what context was like taken
Speaker 1: out or like miss you know, misreported. But I'm I'm
Speaker 1: I'm going like, we're gonna play like you just heard
Speaker 1: her entire answer unedited, that was what she said. Her
Speaker 1: legislative director was like, oh, the senator was discussing two
Speaker 1: different separate things, I guess quote transgender indoctrination and then
Speaker 1: the Kids Online Safety Act. I don't buy it. I
Speaker 1: think that they're trying to backpedal. I think that she
Speaker 1: said I don't think that she misspoke. Her legislative director
Speaker 1: said that she was taken out of context and that
Speaker 1: she was that she misspoke. I don't think either of
Speaker 1: those is true. I think that she said exactly what
Speaker 1: she meant to say. I think that people understood it
Speaker 1: as she meant it as intended, and then when she
Speaker 1: was like, oh wait, this actually gives away why we
Speaker 1: are pushing for this, then tried to back pedal. I
Speaker 1: think that it's clear. It's like, seems pretty clear to
Speaker 1: me what she intended to say, and I think it
Speaker 1: was this. I think I think how we're interpreting it
Speaker 1: is the way that she meant it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's you know, it's interesting.
Speaker 3: I think I think it's a it's a clear sign
Speaker 3: of a how unpopular this sort of playtant transphobia is
Speaker 3: on a national stage. But also like what I like
Speaker 3: what the strategy is, because I feel like this keeps
Speaker 3: happening where right wing politicians will say explicitly transphobic, explicitly
Speaker 3: like horrible shit about the trans community, and then they'll
Speaker 3: come out or their spokesperson will come out.
Speaker 2: And be like, that's not what I met.
Speaker 3: I met well of that because it's again it's it's there,
Speaker 3: like Ben's studies that have shown that like this kind
Speaker 3: of legislation isn't popular on you know, the like transphobia
Speaker 3: isn't isn't the dominant ideology of like the US, even
Speaker 3: though like the right wing wants to paint it as
Speaker 3: this is just sort of what most people think. But yeah,
Speaker 3: they so they have to hide behind this like oh
Speaker 3: I missed it was taken off of context. It's about
Speaker 3: protecting kids, as you talked about in the episode earlier
Speaker 3: this week.
Speaker 2: It's it's scary.
Speaker 3: To see the kind of things that people can get
Speaker 3: away with under the label of just protecting kids, and.
Speaker 2: That is always Again, it's.
Speaker 3: Terrible that this has kind of gotten to the point
Speaker 3: where it is like this, but it's kind of a
Speaker 3: red flag. Now Never something is labeled as being about
Speaker 3: protecting kids, look into it because you.
Speaker 2: Never know what it's actually going to be.
Speaker 3: Everybody can agree that like, yeah, we should protect kids,
Speaker 3: but yeah, it's what does that actually mean?
Speaker 1: I completely agree, and I do think that this legislation
Speaker 1: and I'm guilty of it too, because it took me
Speaker 1: a little bit of time to like, actually, I listened
Speaker 1: to your stuff I've Never Told You episode, which was
Speaker 1: very informative, Thank you. It took me like sitting down
Speaker 1: and actually like going through the proposed legislation and like
Speaker 1: the background to be like, wait a minute, no on this.
Speaker 1: But I think that they're I think that people are
Speaker 1: starting to come around. I think that enough people who
Speaker 1: care about the Internet, and enough like advocates for No
Speaker 1: but Internet, and enough like LGBTQ ad gets and folks
Speaker 1: are speaking up about this legislation. And I also just
Speaker 1: think that, like, I don't know, this is not a
Speaker 1: fully fleshed out thought, but I think that people are
Speaker 1: really becoming tired of the ways that our Internet experience
Speaker 1: is just becoming worse and worse, and I think this
Speaker 1: legislation might be a real like crescendo point where people
Speaker 1: have kind of had enough. I think that for when
Speaker 1: this legislation first came out, I didn't see a lot
Speaker 1: of people talking about it, but I think that recently
Speaker 1: I've seen more and more people being like, wait, like,
Speaker 1: really look into this before you advocate for it. I
Speaker 1: went from seeing organizations that are I guess I would say,
Speaker 1: kind of aligned with youth online being like, oh we
Speaker 1: like it to now I'm not really talking about it
Speaker 1: so much. And so I'm I'm hopeful that we've reached
Speaker 1: an inflection point with this where people are like, no,
Speaker 1: this is actually not what we need and this is
Speaker 1: just like another way to make our internet yet enough
Speaker 1: other battleground on which to like demonize and criminalize trans use.
Speaker 1: And I think, as you said, people are sick of that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and again thank you. I uh go check out
Speaker 3: that episode on stuff Mom.
Speaker 2: I never told you if you're interested in.
Speaker 3: Hearing more, but a big shout out, And I said
Speaker 3: in the episode, big shout out to a lot of
Speaker 3: these like TikTok creators that I've been covering it because.
Speaker 2: That's how I found out about this. I hadn't heard
Speaker 2: about this.
Speaker 3: I didn't really hear people talking about this until I
Speaker 3: was seeing people on TikTok and still have seeing like
Speaker 3: a lot of young people on TikTok using their platform
Speaker 3: to advocate for or to talk about this issue and
Speaker 3: to talk about this this legislation and how it's going
Speaker 3: to be harmful. So yeah, grassroots organizing is important. And
Speaker 3: again the sides into the whole conversation about social media
Speaker 3: and the Internet being monitored because TikTok is a platform
Speaker 3: for that, and TikTok is a platform for a lot
Speaker 3: of young people in particular to advocate for themselves and
Speaker 3: for other communities.
Speaker 2: And I think we owe it to a lot of these.
Speaker 3: Activists on TikTok the fact that this is getting more
Speaker 3: attention and this is getting more pushback.
Speaker 1: Now, absolutely I agree. So thanks to folks who use
Speaker 1: their platform on TikTok to advocate and educate and speak out.
Speaker 1: I thank god we have platforms like this to do that.
Speaker 1: Thank god we have places where folks can use their
Speaker 1: platforms to talk about legislation in this way that is accessible,
Speaker 1: that can help educate all of us. So I'm right
Speaker 1: there with you, completely agree. Okay, So funny update for
Speaker 1: you on the question of whether an AI generated song
Speaker 1: can win a Grammy. So, can an AI generated song
Speaker 1: win a Grammy? Well, it's complicated. A while back, we
Speaker 1: told you that the Grammy said that only songs with
Speaker 1: human songwriters, not ai, were eligible to win a Grammy.
Speaker 1: We had a whole conversation about how that was. I
Speaker 1: thought was really good, Like a line on the sand,
Speaker 1: the Grammys are for humans, not Ai. I was joking
Speaker 1: about how, like, I don't want to robot tom at
Speaker 1: the Grammys. I want to see like Gloria Estefa or
Speaker 1: like Celine Dianic. I don't want to see a robot.
Speaker 1: I want to see a human. It's for humans. Well,
Speaker 1: this week, the head of the Grammys Recording Academy CEO,
Speaker 1: Harvey Mason Junior kind of indicated that an AI generated
Speaker 1: song that kind of sounds like the Weekend and Drake
Speaker 1: called Hard on my Sleeve would be Grammy eligible, And
Speaker 1: everybody was like, what I thought you said that it
Speaker 1: had to have a human songwriter in order to be
Speaker 1: eligible for a Grammy. Previously, Mason Junior told The New
Speaker 1: York Times the song was absolutely eligible because it was
Speaker 1: written by a human Okay, but now he is saying
Speaker 1: that song is not eligible because even though it's written
Speaker 1: by a human, this like writer the songwriter on social media.
Speaker 1: That's like kind of mysterious. It's like not a songwriter
Speaker 1: that you've heard of. It's like some person on social media.
Speaker 1: Even though it might have been written by a human,
Speaker 1: technically that human did not get legal clearances to use
Speaker 1: the weekend or Drake's vocal likenesses. So the Grammy is
Speaker 1: saying that that disqualified the song for winning Song of
Speaker 1: the Year or Best Rap Song, which are the two
Speaker 1: categories it was submitted to. Earlier this summer, Mason Junior
Speaker 1: laid out new rules to whether songs using AI were
Speaker 1: Grammy eligible. They said that AI assisted music could be
Speaker 1: submitted only if humans quote contributed heavily to the song.
Speaker 1: And I guess all of this is to say that
Speaker 1: I think it's like pretty clear that these rules it
Speaker 1: might be a little too subjective. You know, what does
Speaker 1: heavily contributed mean? It seems like maybe they're kind of
Speaker 1: building the plane as they fly it a little bit
Speaker 1: in terms of coming up with these rules and guidelines.
Speaker 1: And I know I reference this a lot, but it
Speaker 1: does sound like the reality is progressing quite a bit
Speaker 1: faster than the rules are being written that this has changed,
Speaker 1: you know that. He was like, oh, it's absolutely eligible
Speaker 1: for a Grammy despite being AI generated to like, no,
Speaker 1: just kidding, it's not eligible for a Grammy within the
Speaker 1: span of a couple of weeks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you're definitely right, Like it does. It
Speaker 3: does sort of feel like they're scrambling because they don't
Speaker 3: know how to respond to this. And yeah, we talked
Speaker 3: last week, you know, more about like the film industry
Speaker 3: and how that's kind of been affected by changing industries
Speaker 3: and changing economies and all that. But again, with music,
Speaker 3: it's one of those things where it's it's art is
Speaker 3: so fundamental to like the human experience, and it is
Speaker 3: sort of like, you know, part of me like gets
Speaker 3: very existential about this where it is like we're taking
Speaker 3: away like oh my god. There was some tweet I
Speaker 3: don't remember what who said or whatever, There's some tweet
Speaker 3: I remember seeing that was like, so like can AI
Speaker 3: be used to like help clean up the ocean or
Speaker 3: is it only going to be making art and.
Speaker 2: Like portray it all that?
Speaker 3: Which I was like, yeah, I know, it's like why
Speaker 3: why are we having AI do this stuff that's like
Speaker 3: fun and it is like you know, people wanted it
Speaker 3: is part again, it's such a fundamental part of the
Speaker 3: human experience.
Speaker 2: Part of me is like, you know, the closest.
Speaker 3: I can compare this to like previously is with like
Speaker 3: you know, when it came to like electronic music and
Speaker 3: like how that was sort of the about when it
Speaker 3: originally popped up. And that makes me a little bit
Speaker 3: more like, okay, like I think if we were using
Speaker 3: a AI a little bit to like as a part
Speaker 3: of the process.
Speaker 2: But yeah, it is. It is that that like the weekend,
Speaker 2: like the weekend and Drake not.
Speaker 3: Giving their permission to use their voice or their likeness
Speaker 3: or their whatever. That definitely feels like a red flag
Speaker 3: because it is it is like that that seems to
Speaker 3: me where it's like that is clearly that okay, and
Speaker 3: I'm like, but who's to say I I don't. And again,
Speaker 3: it is one of those things where it's like the
Speaker 3: Grammys are coming from more like the business industry side,
Speaker 3: so I'm not gonna put it past them to be like, Yep,
Speaker 3: it's all fine, this is all great, we love it all,
Speaker 3: we love it all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I saw this video of the director is it
Speaker 1: Miyazaki from the from like my neighbor Toturo and Princess,
Speaker 1: and basically the animators were showing him this character that
Speaker 1: they had trained using AI and he was like, absolutely not.
Speaker 1: I think the fuck mat he he shut it down.
Speaker 1: He was like, the point of art is meant to
Speaker 1: be human. It's meant to be humans responding to the
Speaker 1: human condition. And like he he was so deeply and
Speaker 1: genuinely offended by what he saw as this like shortcut
Speaker 1: around the humanity and the humanness of art and expression,
Speaker 1: and it just really stuck with me. I once thought
Speaker 1: it would be like funny and cool to to like
Speaker 1: talk to an AI podcast host version of myself, And
Speaker 1: when I sat down and started like putting back together,
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, actually I hate this. I don't
Speaker 1: want to hear an A. I don't want to hear
Speaker 1: like an AI version of me, like like as. I
Speaker 1: just didn't like like as we've talked about off Mike Joey,
Speaker 1: like I'm if folks can't tell I'm having an off
Speaker 1: recording day. The idea of a I is like, well,
Speaker 1: I can come in and I'll always sound prepared. And
Speaker 1: eloquent and thoughtful and this and that. I was like,
Speaker 1: get rid of this AI. I don't like it. It's
Speaker 1: just like it's just like not how it's supposed to be.
Speaker 1: Sometimes like part of human part of art is connecting
Speaker 1: to our humanity, and sometimes that humanity is has off
Speaker 1: days or is messy, or is tough, or is this
Speaker 1: or is that? And I just as you said, I
Speaker 1: think the fact that business interests are so excited about
Speaker 1: about AI makes me think that what they want is
Speaker 1: to cut out the version that that the version of
Speaker 1: our of creation that is human that it's like has
Speaker 1: the off day, isn't prepared kme late doesn't it doesn't
Speaker 1: have this, doesn't have that. They they it was it's
Speaker 1: in their best bottom line interests to prioritize versions of
Speaker 1: creation that like never experience those those things that humans experience.
Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm going I'm going like way too
Speaker 1: deep on this. But all of that is to say
Speaker 1: that I know what you mean.
Speaker 3: You're so right though it is like how many and
Speaker 3: I mean so much, So much of it is like
Speaker 3: we'll ever know, but think about how many like recordings
Speaker 3: of songs that we listened to that maybe came out
Speaker 3: of the musician having an off.
Speaker 2: Day, Like I that is part of art. Emotions are
Speaker 2: part of art.
Speaker 3: And having that again very very on, very like manicured
Speaker 3: version of a person being the only thing that can
Speaker 3: create art seems like we're just gonna lose a lot
Speaker 3: of yeah, like lose a lot of the actual art,
Speaker 3: lose a lot of the good stuff that comes out
Speaker 3: of you know what I have. It's the oh man,
Speaker 3: this maybe this is going in a different direction, but
Speaker 3: that one there's a there's one recording of Fleetwood Max singing.
Speaker 2: Silver Springs and are singing to each other.
Speaker 3: They're singing it to each other, Oh go angry, Like
Speaker 3: they look so angry, and it's like it is one
Speaker 3: of the most beautiful things and it's one of the
Speaker 3: most beautiful things to listen to.
Speaker 2: Like can you imagine if we didn't get that because
Speaker 2: they were.
Speaker 3: Like, Nope, you guys can't stand to be in the
Speaker 3: same room, so we're just not gonna record.
Speaker 2: Like, so much of art comes from that anger.
Speaker 3: It comes from those like quote unquote bad emotions like
Speaker 3: what I yeah, this just.
Speaker 1: Joey, you've just said my like my like trigger phrase
Speaker 1: for like like if we if we were, if this
Speaker 1: conversation was happening at a cocktail party, I would be
Speaker 1: cornering your ass all night talking about that one performance.
Speaker 2: It's I can study that.
Speaker 1: I have like seen it so many times. It's like
Speaker 1: you can just feel the emotion and the energy.
Speaker 3: It's one of the most like beautiful things ever and
Speaker 3: it comes from and like again, I'm sure it comes
Speaker 3: from so much bad emotions, so many like quote like
Speaker 3: negative bad emotions for both of them.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I know, I totally agree.
Speaker 1: I would.
Speaker 3: I would go off about this for hours. That is
Speaker 3: a beautiful, beautiful song, and uh, you know what, it's
Speaker 3: just depressing to think that AI can take away that
Speaker 3: then take away that that humanity that yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean. We did an episode about the hologram version
Speaker 1: of Whitney Houston was doing a residency in Vegas and
Speaker 1: in the episode, one of the things that it sort
Speaker 1: of comes up is the implication that you know, Whitney
Speaker 1: Houston was this like incredibly talented musician, but she was
Speaker 1: she had a troubled life, and that the implication in
Speaker 1: like making her a hologram, it's like, oh, well, this
Speaker 1: is a version of her that we can like have
Speaker 1: produced perfect live performances forever and ever and ever and
Speaker 1: ever and ever, will never be hungover or late or
Speaker 1: you know, on substances, or be distracted by her romantic
Speaker 1: life or you know. And it's like, but those were
Speaker 1: all part of what made her music her music, and
Speaker 1: so like it's like, I don't I don't like this
Speaker 1: implication that via technology you can pick the parts that
Speaker 1: you like, right, Like, if you want to listen to
Speaker 1: Fleetwood Mac, part of what makes Fleetwood Mac good is
Speaker 1: the drama off stage. Is like when they bring that
Speaker 1: to their performances, that's what makes it electric. Unless you're
Speaker 1: one of the robots from the movie Ex Machina. Robots
Speaker 1: are probably not having romantic trauma. I don't think AI
Speaker 1: is having romantic drama with each other off stage.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I again, and I you know, obviously addictions, bad addictions, real,
Speaker 3: not not to romanticize any of that, but like we're
Speaker 3: talking before this, I'm wearing a t rextra right now.
Speaker 3: Like I love a lot of like seventies era like rock,
Speaker 3: and so much.
Speaker 2: Of that is has this terrible, terrible, you know, trauma
Speaker 2: behind it.
Speaker 3: But it is like we got good music out of
Speaker 3: it and again not to I don't know where I'm
Speaker 3: going with this, but I know what you might like.
Speaker 3: It's it's not good. It's that big sense like again,
Speaker 3: like addictions bad. Certain drug usage is harmful for people.
Speaker 3: But that's part of the human experience is being messy
Speaker 3: and making mistakes and messing up. And art comes from
Speaker 3: those mistakes and comes from messing up and is oftentimes
Speaker 3: a way to cope with that, which.
Speaker 2: Again yeah and again, like.
Speaker 3: Part of part of the beauty of music and movies
Speaker 3: and and literature and all of this is it. It
Speaker 3: oftentimes is going to reflect things that we're feeling that
Speaker 3: we don't know how to expla I'm not a musician.
Speaker 2: I don't have the talents to.
Speaker 3: Express these feelings musically, but like I love listening to
Speaker 3: like my favorite artists talking about it and talking about
Speaker 3: experiences that I'm going through. You know, I can go
Speaker 3: cry to a Phoebe Bridger song and yeah, it's it's.
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's just it's it's sad to see
Speaker 2: sad to see where this is going.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I just we are two people who care
Speaker 1: quite a bit about art an expression, and I just
Speaker 1: want to make sure that that even in our you know,
Speaker 1: tech futures, the beauty and the humanity of that, I
Speaker 1: want to make sure that is protected and uplifted and preserved.
Speaker 1: So I guess I hope that that is the way
Speaker 1: that it is in the.
Speaker 2: Future for sure.
Speaker 1: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it, Okay,
Speaker 1: So the last thing I wanted to talk about is
Speaker 1: a story from my hometown. Susannah Gibson is a nurse
Speaker 1: practitioner running in her first election cycle as a Democratic
Speaker 1: candidate in a crucial race for the Virginia General Assembly.
Speaker 1: She is denouncing reports that she and her husband performed
Speaker 1: live in a sexually explicit streaming site. Gibson said that
Speaker 1: these reports about her online activity were an illegal invasion
Speaker 1: of her privacy designed to humiliate her and her family.
Speaker 1: So none of the news outlets who reported on this
Speaker 1: have independently verified these live streams. I should say, but
Speaker 1: it looks like Gibson and her husband got on this
Speaker 1: streaming site called Chatterbait and had sex with each other
Speaker 1: on this live stream. So this plea that she is
Speaker 1: running in is a really crucial race for Virginia. The
Speaker 1: House of Delegates is one of the only handfuls of
Speaker 1: competitive races that will determine control of the General Assembly.
Speaker 1: Republicans hold a slim majority in the House and Democrats
Speaker 1: narrowly control the state Senate, but both chambers are up
Speaker 1: for grabs in November. Her district is right outside of Richmond, Virginia,
Speaker 1: in Henriiko County, which is actually more or less where
Speaker 1: I grew up nor my parents and family still live,
Speaker 1: and her district is one of seven toss up seats
Speaker 1: across the one hundred member House, according to the Virginia
Speaker 1: Public Access Project. So this was all first reported by
Speaker 1: the Washington Post, who said that it learned about the
Speaker 1: material from a quote Republican operative who denied connection to
Speaker 1: Gibson's opponent, David Owen or to other political groups in Virginia. Now,
Speaker 1: obviously I worked on campaigns before. Oppo research is a
Speaker 1: thing that happens in campaigns. But to be honest, I'm
Speaker 1: kind of side eyeing the Post here who published sexual
Speaker 1: dirt on a woman given to them by her rival
Speaker 1: political party. You know, even though this person is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't work for her opponent, they do call this
Speaker 1: person a Republican operative, And I just think it's dirty politics. Like,
Speaker 1: I think it's unbecoming of the race. I just don't
Speaker 1: think it's cool. The Post thought this was like newsworthy
Speaker 1: or relevant to you know publish. In an article about
Speaker 1: why they published the claims, the Post wrote, the Post
Speaker 1: typically does not identify victims of alleged sex crimes to
Speaker 1: protect their privacy. In this case, Gibson originally live streamed
Speaker 1: these sexual acts on a site that was not password protected.
Speaker 1: The couple had more than five thy seven hundred followers there.
Speaker 1: Many of the videos remained available to the public on
Speaker 1: other unrestricted sites as of Saturday. Gibson apparently was not
Speaker 1: aware of this and had not authorized the posting of
Speaker 1: this material on other sites. So, to be super super clear,
Speaker 1: Gibson nor her husband did anything illegal in making these videos.
Speaker 1: It is not illegal to film yourself having sex. It
Speaker 1: is not illegal to put it on a live stream site.
Speaker 1: The platform that hosted these videos does apparently have a
Speaker 1: rule against asking for tips for specific sex acts, which
Speaker 1: apparently Gibson and her husband did. But okay, so the
Speaker 1: Washington Post is like publishing that this woman may or
Speaker 1: may not have broken CHET rebates no tipping like no
Speaker 1: asking for tips rules. It just seems to me like
Speaker 1: very beneath them to publish this at all, not to
Speaker 1: mention it might be a crime. Daniel P. Watkins, a
Speaker 1: lawyer for Gibson, said that it was unlawful in Virginia
Speaker 1: to record someone in a state of undress and distribute
Speaker 1: it to a third party without that person's consent. It's
Speaker 1: illegal and it's disgusting to disseminate this kind of material,
Speaker 1: and we're working closely with the FBI and local prosecutors
Speaker 1: to bring those wrongdoers to justice. Her attorney said, I
Speaker 1: have to give major shoutouts to Gibson because she is
Speaker 1: saying that like this is not going to derail her campaign.
Speaker 1: She said, it won't intimidate me and it won't silence me.
Speaker 1: My political opponents and the Republican allies have proven they're
Speaker 1: willing to commit a sex crime to attack me and
Speaker 1: my family because there's no line. They won't crow to
Speaker 1: silence women when they speak up. And I'm also glad
Speaker 1: to see that people in the like Big Deed democratic
Speaker 1: institution are sticking up for her. Susannah originally ran for
Speaker 1: office because of the overturning of Roe, and she's been
Speaker 1: very outspoken on standing up for reproductive rights. People are
Speaker 1: coming out at support of Susannah because they know that
Speaker 1: Republicans are coming after her because she was standing up
Speaker 1: for them. This is from a spokesperson named Lauren Chew.
Speaker 3: Yeah, good for good for her, for I again like
Speaker 3: standing up for herself, and you know, it seems like
Speaker 3: I again, obviously it's a terrible situation, but I'm glad
Speaker 3: that people are standing behind her too, because it does
Speaker 3: seem like something where you know, this makes me think
Speaker 3: of like I feel like there definitely has been a
Speaker 3: shift in like the last couple of years about how
Speaker 3: we talk about like these leaks of you know, I like,
Speaker 3: when I grew up, it was always like the like
Speaker 3: celebrities nudes getting leaked or like their sex tape, like
Speaker 3: the Kim Kardashian sex tape and all that, like it's.
Speaker 2: It's which I feel like was old. There was for
Speaker 2: a while.
Speaker 3: It was very it was used to use to attack
Speaker 3: women and used to attack and many times when it
Speaker 3: was like it's consensual, it's not your business what they're
Speaker 3: doing in their sex life as long as it's consensual,
Speaker 3: like adults and all of that, and I'm glad, like,
Speaker 3: and I don't know how much of this is like
Speaker 3: part of a bigger push, but it does seem like
Speaker 3: there is kind of a shift where yeah, I'm like
Speaker 3: good for her for being like, I didn't do anything illegal.
Speaker 2: I didn't. In fact, what they did is illegal. You know.
Speaker 3: I think it is like, again, this is this is
Speaker 3: a bigger scale version of this. But it's like when
Speaker 3: we talk about like revenge porn and like that kind
Speaker 3: of thing, where where I think it is good to
Speaker 3: see that there's kind of this shift about now like.
Speaker 2: Hey, whatever, people adults have sex. Sometimes, it's a thing
Speaker 2: that happens. We all are aware of that. You know,
Speaker 2: that's not the problem.
Speaker 3: The problem is the fact that people are going to
Speaker 3: like use that weaponize that. And we live in a
Speaker 3: you know world where we have the internet and and yeah,
Speaker 3: like the things happen people whatever, people do things to
Speaker 3: their personal business. I'm glad there is kind of the
Speaker 3: shift where it is sort of like yeah, and again
Speaker 3: it is this is illegal what the Republicans were doing
Speaker 3: in this case, and it's terrifying. We were talking about like,
Speaker 3: you know, double standards of men and women when it
Speaker 3: comes to sex.
Speaker 2: Also like at the top of this, like if you
Speaker 2: just think.
Speaker 3: Historically, like we know so much about like the Kennedy's
Speaker 3: sex lives and all that, and that's like a joke,
Speaker 3: like it's like almost celebrated, like it's almost sort of like, hah,
Speaker 3: it's this cool thing about JFK. He slept around a lot,
Speaker 3: and I don't know, like it's like like it is.
Speaker 4: That double standard where it is like why is that
Speaker 4: like a thing that it's like that's cool, that's and
Speaker 4: then like in this situation, you know, I'm sure if
Speaker 4: JFK were around now, he would be making a sex tape.
Speaker 1: I got a cut at the very at the very
Speaker 1: least my.
Speaker 2: Controversial presidential But yeah, it is. It is so that
Speaker 2: is and again.
Speaker 1: Good for her.
Speaker 3: This is terrifying. This is a that is a terrible
Speaker 3: situation to be in. But good for her for your
Speaker 3: standing up for herself and that's it's messed up, and yeah,
Speaker 3: good for her.
Speaker 2: I hope this doesn't affect her campaign because yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you're right. I think Slash hope that
Speaker 1: we've reached a new era of this kind of thing
Speaker 1: where I am happy that she's not just like quote
Speaker 1: resigning in disgrace because she didn't do anything disgraceful. I'm
Speaker 1: happy that she's not letting this define her campaign. And
Speaker 1: I also think, like, what does any of this have
Speaker 1: to do with the issues, right, Like she like she
Speaker 1: says that she was motivated to run for office because
Speaker 1: of threats to reproductive health, So it's like that's a
Speaker 1: big issue. I don't know, it just it just it
Speaker 1: just feels like beneath everybody. I think. I think I
Speaker 1: think it's beneath People might disagree, but I don't think
Speaker 1: it's fitting to publish these kinds of you know, Like
Speaker 1: I just I don't think. I don't like, how is
Speaker 1: it going to help Virginians? You know, how is this going?
Speaker 1: How does this going to move policy forward? I just
Speaker 1: I don't think it's like worthy of making it this
Speaker 1: big of a thing about her campaign. I will say,
Speaker 1: like to your point about the Kennedys, I think that
Speaker 1: Donald Trump definitely set a new standard for like what
Speaker 1: is expected and how public officials are like meant to behave. Like,
Speaker 1: let's not forget in a civil trial, a jury found
Speaker 1: that Trump sexually abused Egene Carroll, So like an actual
Speaker 1: sex crime, right, Like.
Speaker 2: We have convicted.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like yeah, sex criminals that are that were the
Speaker 3: president of the United States, and exactly why, like and
Speaker 3: I'm sure these are again, I'm sure a lot like
Speaker 3: the Republicans that were behind this, probably at least some
Speaker 3: of them support Trump. You know, who's who knows. Maybe
Speaker 3: they're anti Trump Republicans, who's to say, but they probably do.
Speaker 3: And it's yeah, yeah, and I get what you said, like,
Speaker 3: shame on the Washington Post for publishing this. I get
Speaker 3: this as part of a like it is part of
Speaker 3: like political campaigns, but also that that feels like that's
Speaker 3: crossing a line.
Speaker 2: I don't know what the line is, but that just
Speaker 2: seems so clearly wrong.
Speaker 3: And especially yeah, when it is like if you, if
Speaker 3: you as a journalist, if I sat and thought about
Speaker 3: this for two minutes, it's like you're aiding criminals.
Speaker 2: Now who are.
Speaker 3: Spreading this video without this woman's consent rather and and
Speaker 3: sort of framing it in a way that makes her
Speaker 3: seem like she's doing something wrong when she didn't break
Speaker 3: a law, like she didn't. Yeah, again, it seems like
Speaker 3: she what she did was consensual, it was maybe. Yeah,
Speaker 3: the tipping thing is the one thing that like seriously,
Speaker 3: like yeah, that's that's yeah.
Speaker 1: Like oh, she might have broken their like chatterer baits
Speaker 1: rule like Pike policies, like oh no, oh man, yeah,
Speaker 1: And I don't know, like I I remember when. So
Speaker 1: back in twenty ten, this woman, Crystal Ball was running
Speaker 1: in Virginia in the Virginia's first congressional district, and these
Speaker 1: images of her, they were the like tamest images you
Speaker 1: ever saw in your life. Basically, she went to a
Speaker 1: Christmas party with her then husband, and I guess the
Speaker 1: theme might have been like naughty Christmas, and so she's
Speaker 1: like fully closed. That's like her. It's like clearly like
Speaker 1: her and her friends having fun. In one of the pictures,
Speaker 1: I think she's wearing like a sex toy on her nose,
Speaker 1: but like they're there. If anything, the pictures are silly.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, she went out and had like a
Speaker 1: silly night of clothed adult fun for like a theme party,
Speaker 1: and those pictures like I think she had to drop
Speaker 1: out of the race. And so I'm happy to see
Speaker 1: that the times have changed a little bit that she
Speaker 1: that like Gibson, is not just like dropping out, that
Speaker 1: she's like standing her like standing firm and the fact
Speaker 1: that this, you know, she didn't do anything wrong and
Speaker 1: she's not going to be intimidated by this, I will say,
Speaker 1: like having like I like I grew up in uh
Speaker 1: this area. I grew up in Chesterfield County, which is
Speaker 1: just one county UA from Minnerichel County, but like it's
Speaker 1: basically the same town. I I hate to say this,
Speaker 1: I firmly believe that she didn't do anything wrong. She's
Speaker 1: not going to be ashamed of all of that. I
Speaker 1: just think the area is such that gender based double
Speaker 1: standards when it comes to sexuality, I think is a
Speaker 1: real thing, and I think that for women especially there.
Speaker 1: I think that women in Virginia are just held to
Speaker 1: a completely unrealistic standard that like nobody could meet. And
Speaker 1: so even if if you're not you know, be on
Speaker 1: a live stream or whatever, it would be something there
Speaker 1: would find something to be like, oh this you're not
Speaker 1: you're not a proper woman quote unquote because of this
Speaker 1: or that, Like where when I was growing up, there
Speaker 1: definitely was the idea that women's behavior was meant to
Speaker 1: be scrutinized in a way that like it's just like
Speaker 1: the unique for women running for office and women in
Speaker 1: the public eye, and so I worry that Gibson like
Speaker 1: this might give folks in Virginia pause. It shouldn't, and
Speaker 1: I hope it doesn't, because it's nothing but just growing
Speaker 1: up in this part of Virginia specifically. I just remember
Speaker 1: what it was like and how much of life was
Speaker 1: ruled by these completely regressive binaries and like social norms
Speaker 1: and rules, like how much of that dictated life there.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's still like that. I haven't
Speaker 1: lived there for many, many years. But I hope that
Speaker 1: Gibson and does not jump out of the race. I
Speaker 1: hope that this does not impact Gibson's race, because I
Speaker 1: don't think it should. I hope that we are in
Speaker 1: a different place where hey, we're all adults, people have sex.
Speaker 1: However you want to get down, is however you want
Speaker 1: to get down, if it's consensual, if y'all are adults,
Speaker 1: do your thing. I hope that the only people that
Speaker 1: I'm like really side eyeing here are the Post and
Speaker 1: whoever that like fucking hating ass Republican operatives, who is like, hey, Post,
Speaker 1: you should publish this. So, yeah, Gibson, you have you.
Speaker 1: I am I am with you. I think that it's
Speaker 1: really cool that she is. I don't know. I hope,
Speaker 1: I gues this will be a test to see if,
Speaker 1: like if we really are in a different place, and
Speaker 1: I hope that we are.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I hope so too.
Speaker 1: Well, that is all I have. I said, this was
Speaker 1: a tough one for me. I am, I am. I'm sorry, Joey,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, listeners, I'm in a weird headspace. Don't mind me.
Speaker 1: I'm mercury is in retrograde.
Speaker 2: I think it's ending tomorrow.
Speaker 1: We'll all hang in there together until tomorrow. By the
Speaker 1: time you hear this, it will be over. Uh wawa.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing the news with me,
Speaker 1: and I'll talk to you all later. If you're looking
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Speaker 1: Strickland is our executive producer. Tari Harrison is our producer
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