WEBVTT - How Grief Works 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:04.280 Welcome to you Stuff you Should Know from house Stuff 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:11.000 Works dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 0:00:11.080 --> 0:00:14.360 Josh Clark. There's Charles W. Chuck Bryant that makes the 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:18.960 Stuff you Should Know the podcast Good Grief. Yes, Good Grief. 0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:22.000 I looked that up. Would you come up with? Well, 0:00:22.040 --> 0:00:24.040 it just struck me at you know, because Charlie Brown 0:00:24.120 --> 0:00:26.280 says it. You know, that's where I know it from. 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.600 Then I thought, why would where did that come from? 0:00:28.640 --> 0:00:30.560 Because of from one of those things, And it's just 0:00:30.640 --> 0:00:33.720 apparently they think it's just what's called the minst oath, 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.160 like when you substitute God for good gravy or good 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:42.239 googly easier, I got you googly movie googly movily. But 0:00:42.240 --> 0:00:43.920 then I thought grief was weird because that's such a 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:48.080 specific thing. But then good gracious gracious is very specific too, 0:00:48.600 --> 0:00:51.159 and like ill fitting. So I guess it's just a 0:00:51.240 --> 0:00:55.280 minstath good grief. Well, maybe good gracious came from good 0:00:55.320 --> 0:00:59.760 grace and somebody's like just feeling a little buzzed on 0:01:00.040 --> 0:01:05.959 knops and they added gracious instead. Maybe so minced toad's 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.520 good gravy. That's good. It's probably the funniest thing will 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.640 happen in this show. Hopefully that wasn't even that funny. Yeah, 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.840 but this one's not supposed to be funny. It's about grief, 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.840 you know. Yeah, And um, I think we should point 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.560 out from the get go that this is about grief, 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.679 human grief, Western human grief. Yeah, but that's not to 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:30.560 say that there aren't different types of grief and that 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:32.559 humans are the only ones who do grieve. In fact, 0:01:32.560 --> 0:01:35.360 I have a story for you antal Action too, So 0:01:35.920 --> 0:01:42.000 what you do? That was the funniest thing in this episode. Uh. 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:46.680 This story took place back in the spring of in 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:51.960 um Uttar Pradesh State, India, specifically in the town of 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.880 luck Now and even more specifically at the Prince of 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:59.800 wales Zoo. There was a seventy two year old elephant 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:03.880 email elephant named Dominie, and Dominie was hanging out in 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:06.440 her little house at the Prince of wale Zoo when 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.760 all of a sudden she got a younger pregnant friend 0:02:10.040 --> 0:02:15.320 delivered to her um named chump Paccali. And Chumpaccali was, 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:17.760 as I said, pregnant. She was actually on maternity leave 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:20.600 from her regular gig where she would just let tourists 0:02:20.680 --> 0:02:24.240 ride on her back. Okay, right, um, and so she was. 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.240 She was taking the Prince of Wales zoo to to 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.040 basically just have a nice, comfortable term and then give birth. 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:35.680 And Domini just fell in love with chompa collie. This 0:02:35.720 --> 0:02:39.760 is so sad, so um. She basically became a maternal 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:43.639 figure chump Ofcali. They were best friends. Um. Chumpacali would 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.160 lay around and um Domini would stroke her pregnant belly 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:50.440 with her trunk. They just got really really tight, which 0:02:50.480 --> 0:02:55.360 is very normal in in um the elephant world. Um. 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:59.679 So you can almost imagine that Domini was growing excited 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:03.119 as Champacali got closer and closer to her due date 0:03:03.480 --> 0:03:07.160 and when finally she did um go into labor. Champacali 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.840 died during childbirth and gave birth to a stillborn calf, 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.960 and Dominie, I guess they let her come in and like, 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.480 you know, hang around the body because elephants are known 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.800 to grieve well, even as far as elephants go, Domini's 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.320 stories a little. That's pretty bad. She um. She cried 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:27.760 over the body for a while and then went over 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.240 to her enclosure and just stood still for a week. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:37.040 Right after the week um. She during this week, she 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.960 she stopped eating um. She got to the point where 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:45.520 her legs swelled from basically starvation and dehydration until she 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:48.800 fell over. And then she just laid there for what 0:03:48.920 --> 0:03:51.240 turned out to be the rest of her life, where 0:03:51.360 --> 0:03:54.600 she wept and refused to eat and refused to drink 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:58.240 and grieved over the death of her friend, and finally 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:02.240 died herself a few days later. Uh and the vets 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.680 tried to keep her alive. They um, they did what 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:08.960 they could, but they said in the end um, in 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:13.920 the face of Domini's intense grief, all our treatment failed. No, 0:04:14.120 --> 0:04:17.200 they're buried next to one another. I had a dog 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:19.920 situation like that similar when I was a kid. One 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:21.599 of my dogs died and they were best buds, and 0:04:21.600 --> 0:04:24.239 the other one just like it was never the same 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.400 and died about three months later and seemed healthy at 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:31.560 the time. And I went out and laid down the 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:36.920 doghouse and cried when I was like seven, devastating. That's 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:39.440 a wonderful thing to do. That's working out your grief, 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:41.200 you know. Yeah, But as far as the animals go, 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:46.400 it really is pretty evenly divided among scientists who say, yes, 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:48.520 they show all the signs of grieving and that's what 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:51.320 they're doing. And then others that say, no, they are 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:55.680 not grieving. We're putting that on them as humans. Yeah, 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.200 that's I totally disagree with that. Yeah, it's just you know, 0:04:59.360 --> 0:05:03.400 it's really too camps um. So we've talked about this before. Yeah, 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.560 we've run up against this before, and I don't think 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.640 either one of us have changed our positions at all. 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:10.160 I think they grieve. But then you hear like this 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.960 one great ape you know, was famous recently for carrying 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:18.119 her little dead uh baby around for like three days, 0:05:18.600 --> 0:05:20.960 and other scientists came out and said, like, you know, 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.159 this is a long gestation period they have Singleton's having 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:27.720 a kid is a big deal, and so she's carrying 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.240 this baby around and hopes that it will come back 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:33.440 to life and it's like in a comatose state, and 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:37.720 you know, it's a practical, adaptive, evolutionary thing that's happening. 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.279 It's not grief. And then I think you're heartless, Right, Yeah, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.440 they're grieving because they they took the baby chimp and 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:50.080 made a purse out of it. After that, Well, but 0:05:50.120 --> 0:05:52.480 then for animals, I don't want to get two sidetrack. 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.080 But you have to think, like when some clearly showed 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.480 signs of what looks like grief and some don't at all, 0:05:57.560 --> 0:06:02.000 Like the chimpanzee and the same you know arena like 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:06.599 they eat other chimpanzees while they're still alive and screaming. Well, 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.400 those are the ones that back talk, or they go 0:06:09.440 --> 0:06:12.279 off to die by themselves and there's no grieving, or 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.320 they will make like if one of them is dying, 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.360 that will like kill them. Right, But imagine, imagine you're 0:06:17.360 --> 0:06:22.600 an outside observer of the human species. We we lose 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.760 chemical weapons on one another, and yet we still have 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.880 funeral practices. I mean, it's it's interesting. I wonder why 0:06:31.920 --> 0:06:34.960 certain animals do and certain don't, though you know, it's 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.839 very interesting. Well, getting back to um humans the human 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:41.719 realm of grief, there was a man who recently um 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.440 was married to his wife for sixty two years and 0:06:44.800 --> 0:06:48.720 she died and on the way to her funeral, he 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:53.040 died in the back of the limousine and um, yeah, 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.159 which I thought was incredibly sweet. And then his his 0:06:56.800 --> 0:07:01.080 daughters they died at the funeral. Then know they they 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.800 put a sign up. They decided to just have a 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:06.640 double funeral, and they put a sign up at the 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.680 wake that said surprised it's a double header and then 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.720 buried him next to her like that that day. Well, 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.120 I guess the fai. But the point is is, yeah, 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.680 that is that that's a that's they used a sense 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:22.119 of humor to grief, or else they weren't going through grief. 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:23.760 And the point of that whole thing is is that 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:28.400 there's no set way that grief works, which is great 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:31.000 because we can say just about anything here and still 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:35.920 being the right because psychology is still grappling to define 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.600 the process of grief, and some very recent studies that 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:45.360 you found show that grief is not present and everyone, 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:48.720 and that everyone deals with it very differently, and there's 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:53.760 not really any specific way to handle it. There's just 0:07:53.840 --> 0:07:57.600 some great general guidelines and that we should say grief 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.240 is a very personal thing. Yeah, and I might self 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:05.760 have experienced the spectrum of grief in my life, like 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.160 including you know, like family members passing away. Not to 0:08:09.200 --> 0:08:12.280 be too cold, but some are you know, you super 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:14.760 grief for and some it's like, well, you know, they 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.440 were very old and they had a great life and 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:19.680 we saw this coming. And that's one of the things 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:21.400 that you know. It's one of the types of grief. 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:25.400 Anticipatory grief, they say, is probably easier because you're working 0:08:25.400 --> 0:08:29.680 that stuff out over time and it's nothing like an 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:34.760 accident or a child dying. Unanticipated grief well, completely different. Yeah, 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.560 it is. So you say you mentioned anticipatory grief. That's 0:08:38.600 --> 0:08:42.000 like if somebody's got a prolonged illness or something like that, 0:08:42.160 --> 0:08:44.480 you have the chance to say goodbye ahead of time, 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.240 maybe deal with these emotions exactly, and then once death 0:08:47.280 --> 0:08:51.640 actually comes, you've been prepared for this for days, weeks, months, right, Yeah, 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:53.920 and a lot of times something maybe there isn't any 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:56.719 quote unquote traditional grief going on at all because you're 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.680 just so prepared and it's just a matter of executing 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:01.400 all the things that you need to do. If you're 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.200 the person that's in charge of that kind of like 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:05.200 you're so prepared you blow off the funeral to go 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:11.960 the grocery store. Um. It's like a serial. Psychologists call 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.480 that kind of grief anticipatory grief basically the money grief, 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:19.840 because it's it's about is um as light as you 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:26.000 can get post grief post death, I should say, right, yes, um, 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.240 And then Again, I want to say, like there's there's 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.280 probably a listener out there who like helped their their 0:09:32.440 --> 0:09:35.880 husband or their mother through a long bout of cancer 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:40.640 that the person finally succumbed to. That's like, that's absolutely untrue. 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.120 I agree with you wholeheartedly. Like there again, there's no 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:48.520 specific um, Like, no one could tell you what your 0:09:48.559 --> 0:09:51.400 grief was. Again, it's personal. This is just these are 0:09:51.520 --> 0:09:58.360 very broad strokes. So okay, then, like you mentioned unanticipated grief, right, yeah, 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:00.640 I meant that's from my experien arian's I had a 0:10:00.679 --> 0:10:03.400 friend that fell off a building and died. That's like 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:08.920 definitely the hardest someone young an accident and uh but still, 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.560 if you want to talk about five stages, I don't. 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:14.319 I'm not a big believer that that's the case because 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.360 I didn't experience all the stages at all. Um. But 0:10:17.480 --> 0:10:21.120 again it varies. Someone might experience tense stages. It does. 0:10:21.200 --> 0:10:23.840 But but the point is with unanticipated grief, like you 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:26.679 couldn't have you or your friend didn't wake up that 0:10:26.720 --> 0:10:29.839 morning like he was gonna die, you know, but he 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.320 still died and you have to deal with it all 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.160 of a sudden um. And then there's ambiguous grief, which 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.400 for my money, is probably the worst kind of grief. 0:10:39.440 --> 0:10:41.560 This is the kind of grief that comes where, say, 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:43.719 if you have a loved one who is kidnapped and 0:10:43.800 --> 0:10:46.480 you never hear from them again, or ever felt that 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:50.440 one your parents abandoned you as a child, um, or 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.679 just something happens is somebody and there's no real resolution 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:56.960 or closure or you know, it doesn't have to be 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.640 even death. It can be like your girlfriend you come 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.959 home to a note on your bed, you never hear 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:06.040 from her again, or a wife. I guess, yeah, because 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.080 I guess we should also say, like, grief doesn't just 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:12.280 have to come from death. Grief is basically the deep 0:11:12.320 --> 0:11:16.559 and poignant distress caused by bereavement, and bereavement is the 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:20.320 state of being deprived of something or someone, so that 0:11:20.400 --> 0:11:24.760 could be through death whatever. Yeah exactly. Um, but yeah, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.640 so those are the three types of normal grief just 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:32.160 off the top of our heads. We made those up right, um. 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:36.520 And you mentioned the different kinds of um they're the 0:11:36.559 --> 0:11:39.440 different stages of grief and you, I mean, that's just 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:43.240 such like a pop trope these days, but it was 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:46.680 actually new just as recently as the nineteen sixty nine 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:50.480 when Dr Elizabeth Coogler Ross came up with the five 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:52.960 stages of grief that you always hear about today, that 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:55.920 any ten year old could probably recite to you. But 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.720 I have since been kind of deconstructed and change in 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:01.840 question and challenge. But these are the kind of the 0:12:01.920 --> 0:12:08.040 road map to go through grief, right, Um, denial, anger, bargaining, depression, 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:12.280 and acceptance, and denial is just basically saying this is 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.719 you're you're not true that there's still alive. Like what 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:18.200 you say is a lie and I don't want to 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:20.440 be anywhere near you because you're lying to me right 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:23.080 now about something very horrible. Yeah, I've never experienced that, 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:25.360 even with my friend who fell off a building. Like 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:27.439 that's as sudden a news as you can get over 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.280 the phone. And I'm just not the kind of person 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:32.920 who's like, no, that didn't happen. I was like, man, 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:36.240 it immediately hit me that that had happened, you know, 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:39.480 And I started from there, I guess. But I didn't 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.000 experience anger either. But you know, if it might have 0:12:43.040 --> 0:12:46.000 been my brother, I might have experienced anger. And you 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:50.240 you raise a very good point. There's different, there's different, Um, 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:54.120 I guess risk factors. There's different elements to grief, and 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:56.199 some of it is personal. Some of it has to 0:12:56.240 --> 0:12:59.160 do with how close you are to the person, sure, Um, 0:12:59.200 --> 0:13:00.800 some of it has to do the type of person 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:04.080 you are. You're a pretty resilient person. If you were 0:13:04.120 --> 0:13:06.600 a very sensitive, bookish type, you might have taken it 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.000 a little harder, you know what I mean. Um, you 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:16.959 have a very very very strong, tight support group, you do, so, Um, 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.959 I would say that that that probably helped quite a bit. 0:13:19.960 --> 0:13:21.960 I'm sure you had a group of friends that like 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:23.800 helped you through that, that were probably friends with the 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.040 kid too, so you went through it as a group. Yeah, 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.160 going through something alone is always hard. Even if you 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.160 think you're a loner and don't want to be around anyone, 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.480 you're probably not doing yourself any favor, right. Uh. And 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.440 then lastly, you had prior experience with grief. You're throwing 0:13:37.480 --> 0:13:40.480 yourself down in the doghouse when you were seven, so 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:42.920 you had that experience to draw upon and to know 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:45.400 you can make it through it. It does get better, 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.199 it does go away. So you're gonna have the hardest 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.400 normal kind of grief if you are, like you said, 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:53.800 a loner with no support group. If this is the 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:56.439 first time you've ever experienced grief, if you're the sensitive, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:03.720 bookish type, and um, if you were extraordinarily close to somebody, right, Yeah, totally. 0:14:03.920 --> 0:14:06.520 In fact, I used to do acting exercises in college. 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:10.400 What it took, this acting class, and believe it or not, 0:14:11.840 --> 0:14:14.120 I took one acting class and I was not very 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:16.640 good at it, and that he used to tell us 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:18.920 to try and do like crying exercises and stuff. So 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:20.680 what do you think of my brother? Was always to 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.120 go to like imagine my brother had gotten killed or something. 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:29.720 I would just like boom, yeah cry if I thought 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.680 of your brother dying. I know, I'm just kidding about 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:40.120 the other family members. Alright, So anger that's the second one. Yes, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:45.360 it is pretty self explainatory. Um. Bargaining. It fascinates me, 0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:50.160 like the idea that that you I feel like you're 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.840 suddenly in a position to make a deal with God 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.360 to reverse the circumstances or bring the person back or 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:00.640 take away the pain. Yeah, it's just so crazy, and 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:03.720 it's it's you know, like you think of somebody bargaining 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:05.920 with God or some higher power and they're like looking 0:15:06.000 --> 0:15:09.400 up talking to the ceiling or the sky and that 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:14.200 that is one of the normal stages of grief. That's 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:16.600 I just find that fast. I did that when I 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.600 was young with girls. Oh yeah, well I was heavy 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:23.080 into church, very emotional kid, and girls like you know. 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:25.480 That was one of those deals, like God, just please, 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:27.200 if you would just come back to me a promise, 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.880 I'll like do this and I'll do that, but I'll 0:15:29.920 --> 0:15:31.880 clean behind my ears. I grew out of that pretty 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:36.280 quick because I realized different that girls either coming back 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.600 or she was hitting the road exactly, and God probably 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:41.560 had little if anything to do with that. That's right, 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.880 he was dealing with bigger problems. Um. After that's depression. 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:50.040 And this one is kind of tricky. Um, if you 0:15:50.520 --> 0:15:53.280 if you go through the stage of depression, if you do, 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:57.080 it's not necessarily requisite. Um, they're starting to wonder if 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:02.080 possibly you're already depressed, and uh, if you were already depressed, 0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:04.520 that probably means you're going to maybe get stuck in 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.800 the stage for a while, or you might go through 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.360 a depressed stage and then come out of it. It's 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.880 not necessarily But the problem with the stage is that 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:19.920 depression is a recognized mental disorder and grief is not 0:16:20.040 --> 0:16:24.160 considered a mental disorder, and yet in one of these 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:28.480 five widely accepted stages, you go through a period where 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:32.520 you're you're you have a mental disorder, but it's part 0:16:32.520 --> 0:16:36.040 of a normal process. And you know, that's basically like 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:39.760 taking psychologists and throwing them into the thunder dome, you know, 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.120 greasing them up with chicken fat and handing them battle 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.920 axes and saying, like, explain that. You know, that's the 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:51.240 funniest thing said. Uh. The last one is acceptance, of course, um, 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:55.040 when you are finally able to move on and UM. 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.680 I found that one fairly interesting article where they they 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.800 charted this and they said it would look like a W. 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:05.240 Is that right, like the high points and the low points. Yeah, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:08.560 which I guess um denials the high point, and then 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:13.159 it goes down to um anger. Yeah, up to bargaining. 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.720 I guess if you feel like that's getting you somewhere, 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.679 maybe it's an up. Maybe maybe UM, at the very 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.560 least it's manic. I would think, back down to depression, 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.520 and then finishing the W with a nice bit of acceptance. Yeah. 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:30.479 And they've as you said that, we've sort of been 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:32.280 studying this for like thirty or forty years, and there 0:17:32.320 --> 0:17:34.680 was always that five stages thing, but recently they're looking 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.960 more into it, and they've done some studies with widowers 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.880 and widows, and they found that they really oscillate wildly 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:44.560 from day to day and it's not necessarily going to 0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.080 be a w it's I felt great today and really 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.239 my spirits were up and I was even laughing. Then 0:17:49.240 --> 0:17:50.719 the next day they were really sad. And it just 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:54.280 really is all over the map, right, But I think overall, 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.080 what they're finding is that on a long enough arc, 0:17:57.280 --> 0:17:59.919 people emerge from it, and it seems to be somewhere 0:18:00.000 --> 0:18:03.560 in the order of six months to three years seems 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:07.119 to be, and I think that's the outliers are maybe 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.080 six months to three years. That's such a ridiculous time frame, 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:12.080 but the bolt. But I mean, like if you study 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:16.320 enough people, you can probably create like like three months 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.679 to five years, right, you know, no totally and then 0:18:19.720 --> 0:18:22.480 say anyone else as an outlier. Right, But that's the thing, 0:18:22.520 --> 0:18:26.360 like you can't. That's why everybody is very wisely, um 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.720 they avoid saying things like that, like this is this 0:18:32.760 --> 0:18:35.600 is like it's almost respect for the process, Like no 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:37.000 one wants to come out and say no, this is 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.480 how it is. Yeah, because you can't, and that's a 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:43.119 mean thing to do. And actually there's there's um the 0:18:43.160 --> 0:18:46.560 grief is is in danger of being medicalized in the 0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:49.960 DSM five one of the proposals, there's a there's always 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:54.080 been an exemption to bereavement with depression like a depression 0:18:54.280 --> 0:18:58.840 um diagnosis if the person has recently gone through the 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.120 press of grief or is in the pressive degree. Um, 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:05.440 you can't diagnose them with depression. You can, but you're 0:19:05.440 --> 0:19:08.280 not gonna get reimbursed for any meds you prescribed them. Well, 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.439 under the d s M five they're taking away this 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:16.119 bereavement exclusion so that doctors can get reimbursed. Yeah, but 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:21.000 it medicalizes grief, it says, no, now it's a mental disorder, 0:19:21.520 --> 0:19:23.320 well when it's not supposed to be, and it's a 0:19:23.359 --> 0:19:27.159 slip slope. Yeah, you know, a temporary disorder though you 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:32.480 would hope. So all right, very keen insight, nice work, 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:37.920 Thank you psychology today. Is that where you got it? Yeah? Okay, Um, 0:19:38.080 --> 0:19:40.359 so should we talk a little bit about dealing with it? 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:44.760 I guess yes, Um, you know these are it's it's 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:48.040 good advice, but it's also any time I read something 0:19:48.040 --> 0:19:50.119 where they're like, take care of yourself and eat right 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:52.800 next or so avoid drugs and alcohol. Yeah, but it 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.159 is very much true. You know that it only is 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.920 going to make things worse if you wallow in this 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:01.400 and abuse yourself with drugs and alcohol in don't eat 0:20:01.720 --> 0:20:04.840 and you don't think there's a there's not a therapy 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.000 to pouring like half of a forty out on the 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:10.600 curb for someone who's gone and then drinking the other half. Yeah, 0:20:10.640 --> 0:20:13.080 I mean sure, but don't do that every day for 0:20:13.160 --> 0:20:16.160 like weeks and weeks starting in nine and you yeah, 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:17.879 I mean I think me and my friends got together 0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.199 and got really good and plowed after we got the 0:20:20.240 --> 0:20:26.399 news about my buddy. But but alcohol, my advice is 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:30.840 to avoid it after Yes, but okay, so in addition 0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:34.240 to avoiding folks and alcohol, eating right and getting regular exercise, 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:37.320 just the standard stuff. What was that? Also in jet lag? 0:20:38.960 --> 0:20:42.919 Every time it's anything, um the the there are like 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:48.119 some really good suggestions to dealing with grief. If you 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:52.240 find yourself overwhelmed by a profound sense of sadness, there 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:53.919 are things out there that you can do to make 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:56.720 yourself feel better. You can um write a letter to 0:20:56.920 --> 0:21:00.880 the deceased that's said to help. Um, okay, yet why 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.560 not uh throwing yourself into stay, making a memorial like 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:10.600 those roadside memorials, or a video clip show who knows you? Actually? 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:13.000 You know what, when my friend added did a video 0:21:13.720 --> 0:21:16.320 see because his family put together a website like a 0:21:16.320 --> 0:21:19.600 memorial website, and on the I had video footage back 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:22.000 then of m and I did a little video for 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:23.960 the family. But it ended up really being like a 0:21:23.960 --> 0:21:26.640 great thing for me. It made you feel better, absolutely. Yeah. 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:31.040 So basically putting yourself into a project there where you're 0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:35.159 thinking about this person, I imagine this isn't an article, 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:38.920 this is just me doing some armchurir psychology. But um, 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:42.960 I imagine it forces you to remember good things about 0:21:43.000 --> 0:21:46.080 the person. And so during this time when you're possibly 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:50.840 a little more emotionally fragile than usual, you are being 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.560 reminded of positive memories, positive things as well. You know, 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:57.040 so you're maybe that's why that would help, but it 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.320 definitely doesn't help, you know for sure, because when you're 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.600 going through and do in like a scrapbook, it's these 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:04.159 great memories in these pictures and it's not you know, 0:22:04.240 --> 0:22:07.159 you are remembering the good stuff and that like the life, 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.400 which is I think how everyone wants to be remembered. 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:14.040 You know, it's like these great lives we have exactly 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:17.040 you know, you want to be remembered as alive. Yeah, 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:19.159 I mean, I'm one of those people that always wants 0:22:19.200 --> 0:22:21.520 my funeral to be you know, a little bit more 0:22:21.520 --> 0:22:23.840 of an upbeat affair, as much as it can be. 0:22:23.920 --> 0:22:26.600 You know, where some people like, no, man, I want 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.520 people really sad, right, yeah, I want to be mourned 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:33.760 for days. It's not me. So you want the upbeat affair? Yeah, okay, 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.320 I have have a party and you know, make fun 0:22:36.320 --> 0:22:40.639 of me, but not like G. G Allen's funeral. I 0:22:40.760 --> 0:22:42.919 have to research that one. I can only imagine what 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:46.800 it was like. Yeah, pretty hardcore pretty much. Okay, yeah. 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.240 Did they inject his corpse with heroin or he's bury 0:22:50.320 --> 0:22:55.080 naked though and they it was Yeah, you can do 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:57.680