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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease in the last hours, the

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Speaker 1: crime scene in Idaho in Moscow, where four beautiful students

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Speaker 1: were literally slaughtered, most likely.

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Speaker 2: In their sleep, has been destroyed.

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Speaker 1: That's right, totally demolished or was it? Is there any

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Speaker 1: speck left behind for scavengers seeking murderabilia?

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Speaker 2: Is there anything left for them? And why? Why would

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Speaker 2: they do that?

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Speaker 1: This as the defendant, suspect number one in the quadruple sleigh,

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Speaker 1: Brian Coburger, makes a last ditch effort to the judge

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Speaker 1: to have the case thrown out of court.

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Speaker 2: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: and on Sirius XM one eleven.

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Speaker 2: First of all, take a listen to this.

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Speaker 3: It took just ninety minutes time for the infamous home

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Speaker 3: at eleven twenty two King Road to become nothing more

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Speaker 3: than a pile of rubble. The debris loaded up by

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Speaker 3: two contractors, taken to a secret area for disposal. The

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Speaker 3: site was combed for not a single item to be

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Speaker 3: left behind for the curious to find and keep as

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Speaker 3: a souvenir. One local, who wished to remain anonymous, said

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Speaker 3: they wanted nothing left for the rules to plunder.

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Speaker 1: Well, I hope that everything you just heard from our

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Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot com is true. Joining me

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Speaker 1: an all star panel to make sense of what we

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Speaker 1: know right now. Joining me in addition to the other

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Speaker 1: stars on the panel, Andy Kahn, director of Victim Services

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Speaker 1: and Advocacy Crime Stoppers Houston, who first coined the phrase

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Speaker 1: murderer Bilia, and Harold Schecter, author of Murderabilia, A History

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Speaker 1: of Crime in one hundred Objects. You know, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people would not be interested in that, I, however,

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Speaker 1: am extremely.

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Speaker 2: Interested in that.

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Speaker 1: Think about it, A history of crime in one hundred objects,

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Speaker 1: What objects and why. He is also the author of Maniac,

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Speaker 1: the Bath School Disaster, and the Birth of modern mass murder. Again,

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Speaker 1: that's certainly not everyone's cup of tea, however, it is

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Speaker 1: my cup of tea. You can find him at Haroldshacter

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Speaker 1: dot com.

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Speaker 2: So let's start with them.

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Speaker 1: Then I'll circle back to breaking news reporter with the

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Speaker 1: Washington Examiner, Rachel Schilke, who can tell you everything you

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Speaker 1: want to know about why the crime scene has been destroyed.

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Speaker 2: But first, Andy Kahan joining us. Andy, thank you for

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Speaker 2: being with us.

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Speaker 1: You and Harold both Andy, explain, what is murder rebelia?

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Speaker 1: And as far as I know, you coined that phrase

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Speaker 1: and greatly helped me and inspired me and my first

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Speaker 1: nonfiction book, Objection, where there is an entire chapter devoted

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Speaker 1: to what I learned from you called blood money Explain.

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Speaker 4: Murderabilia is items that are associated with serial killers, mass murderers,

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Speaker 4: school shooters, high profile killers that are then peddled on

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Speaker 4: an open market, primarily the innet internet. So these are

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Speaker 4: items that are produced personally by some of the nation's

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Speaker 4: worst serial killers and mass murderers.

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Speaker 1: Let me just break it down because when I was

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Speaker 1: in your office, they're at Victims Advocacy in Texas.

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Speaker 2: I believe you showed me somebody's toenails. Did you show

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Speaker 2: me somebody's toenails or their hair? What was it you

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Speaker 2: showed me?

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Speaker 1: That was not the most disgusting thing I've ever seen,

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Speaker 1: but it definitely was in the top ten.

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Speaker 2: What was it you showed me, Andy Kahan?

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Speaker 4: So inside my duffel bag in my office, I actually

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Speaker 4: have murderabilia items that include serial killer hair samples, which

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Speaker 4: is like Charles Manson's hair that was sold in the

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Speaker 4: form of a swastika. I have actual fingernail clippings from

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Speaker 4: a California a serial killer. I have pieces of clothing,

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Speaker 4: I had objects that were actually taken from crime scenes itself.

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Speaker 2: What kind of objects taken from crime scenes?

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Speaker 1: Because That's what I'm worried about with the demolition of

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Speaker 1: the King Road address what objects have been taken from

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Speaker 1: a crime scene? Look, anything is fair game if some

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Speaker 1: gule gets I don't know, a piece of wood, a

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Speaker 1: piece of cement, a piece of fabric, a piece of furniture.

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Speaker 4: Let me give you an example. Nancy hit me John

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Speaker 4: Wayne Gacy's cross space.

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Speaker 5: There are over forty.

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Speaker 4: People that were bidding for items. For dirt that was

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Speaker 4: scooped up and put into a plastic bag where Gacy

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Speaker 4: had buried over thirty young men.

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Speaker 1: Okay, stop right there. Dirt dirt from Jaysey's crawl space

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Speaker 1: beneath his home, the clown killer. He would lure, molest in,

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Speaker 1: murder little boys, and then bury the bodies in his

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Speaker 1: crawl space. People actually paid money for the dirt. How

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Speaker 1: much money?

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Speaker 4: Well, they were paying anywhere from fifty to one hundred

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Speaker 4: dollars for little bags of dirt.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to Harold Scheckter, joining US author of murderabilia,

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Speaker 1: A history of crime in one hundred objects. Harold, what

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Speaker 1: is wrong with these people? They're ghules, They're like vampires

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Speaker 1: sucking the marrow out of a crime scene.

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Speaker 2: What is wrong with these people?

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Speaker 6: Well, I think it's important to put the phenomenon in

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Speaker 6: some kind of historical context.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 6: The only thing different now about collecting murder abelia is,

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Speaker 6: as Andy says, you can do it on the internet.

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Speaker 6: But the fact remains, if you look at the history

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Speaker 6: of crime, people have always wanted to own souvenirs connected

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Speaker 6: to very gruesome and sensational crimes.

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Speaker 1: Why do you say that, Harold Schachter, what's the oldest

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Speaker 1: example of murder abilia that you know of?

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Speaker 6: Well, you know, back in the let's say seventeen hundreds,

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Speaker 6: when a condemned murderer was hanged, one of the perks

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Speaker 6: for the executioner was that he could keep the noose,

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Speaker 6: and the executioners would cut the nooses into one inch

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Speaker 6: pieces and sell them to these morbid souvenir hunters. You know,

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Speaker 6: one of the interesting things. I'm a historian of true crime.

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Speaker 6: You know, my books examined crimes going back to Shakespeare's time,

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Speaker 6: and every time there has been a very notorious murder,

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Speaker 6: people have flocked to the site of the murder and

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Speaker 6: often torn down, you know, the barns or the houses

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Speaker 6: where these crimes have taken place. I'll give you an

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Speaker 6: example in the eighteen seventies. I'm sure you've heard of

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Speaker 6: the Bender family. The Bender family was his family who

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Speaker 6: opened a roadside tavern in Kansas in the early eighteen seventies,

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Speaker 6: and when travelers, you know, weary travelers, would stay there,

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Speaker 6: the venders would murder them and take all their possessions

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Speaker 6: and bury their corpses in the apple orchard. When their

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Speaker 6: crimes were discovered, hundreds and hundreds of people descended on

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Speaker 6: the vendor property and basically tore down the house, you know,

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Speaker 6: coming away with these souvenirs. It's not a new phenomenon.

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Speaker 2: No, it's really not. You're right to bring up the

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Speaker 2: Bender family. Guys. This is happening now, and I'm.

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Speaker 1: Going to go to our legal expert to discuss what

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Speaker 1: does this mean legally if and when this case ever

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Speaker 1: goes to trial that there is no more crime scene

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Speaker 1: to visit. But first I want you to take a

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Speaker 1: listen to our forensic crime online.

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Speaker 7: The clopboard house located at one one two two King Road,

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Speaker 7: has been torn down, with the entire front of the

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Speaker 7: building out of sight in roughly fifteen minutes. According to

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Speaker 7: school officials, demolition was set for during the school's winter break,

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Speaker 7: when fewer students would be in the area. The home, however,

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Speaker 7: has been digitized into a three D model using the

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Speaker 7: latest technology, and according to the prosecution and defense, the

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Speaker 7: actual building will serve no purpose in the upcoming trial.

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Speaker 7: So with all legal sides and agreement, the home that

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Speaker 7: was donated by its owner to the University of Idaho

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Speaker 7: has been raised.

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Speaker 1: Interesting that we hear from crime Online and the legal

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Speaker 1: parties that they're fine with the destruction of the home,

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Speaker 1: but in my mind, those most connected to this case disagree.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut seven to eleven from

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories.

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Speaker 8: The families of the four students killed in the house

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Speaker 8: on King Road were not in agreement on the demolition.

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Speaker 8: The Gonzavez and Cronodle families issued a statement before the

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Speaker 8: demolition asking the university to wait to tear down the

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Speaker 8: building until Coberger's trial is completed. The Gonzavez family released

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Speaker 8: a statement through their attorneys saying the house has evidentiary

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Speaker 8: and emotional value. In the statement, Gonzavez wrote, quote, the

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Speaker 8: family has stressed tirelessly to the prosecution and the University

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Speaker 8: of Idaho the importance evidentiary and emotionally that the King

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Speaker 8: Road House carries, But nobody seems to carry enough. She writes,

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Speaker 8: the family's opinion isn't a priority. The family of Ethan Chapin,

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Speaker 8: who did not live there, offered support of the demolition.

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Speaker 8: In their statement that Chapins said the demolition was needed

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Speaker 8: quote for the good of the university, it's students, including

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Speaker 8: our kids, and the community of Moscow.

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Speaker 2: This is what I think about that. I think that.

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Speaker 1: There's a very strong possibility the jury would not have

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Speaker 1: seen the crime scene. Seeing the crime scene is very rare.

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Speaker 1: We only hear about it in high profile cases when

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Speaker 1: it does happen. Typically it does not happen. However, better

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Speaker 1: safe than sorry. I think rushing into the demolition of

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Speaker 1: the quadruple homicide was wrong at this juncture. That said,

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Speaker 1: I want to hear about this so called secret location,

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Speaker 1: and I want to hear about the destruction of the home,

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Speaker 1: and will circle back to the gules that are absolutely

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Speaker 1: trying to get memorabilia from the King Roade Home, no

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Speaker 1: question about that. Time stories with Nancy Grace joining me,

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Speaker 1: Rachel show Key along with the rest of our experts

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Speaker 1: breaking these Reporter Washington Examiner, Rachel, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Tell me about the destruction of the crime, Sayne, Well, the.

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Speaker 9: House was originally supposed to be demolished in August, but

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Speaker 9: they delayed it because they were going through this court

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Speaker 9: process of deciding whether or not they were going to

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Speaker 9: keep the home standing or not. And then eventually the

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Speaker 9: home was destroyed over the student's winter break. The university

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Speaker 9: officials wanted to minimize any emotional damage that could do

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Speaker 9: on the students, and as we heard in those clips,

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Speaker 9: a lot of the family members were not okay with this.

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Speaker 9: They said that there could be evidentiary value, that this

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Speaker 9: could be very important if there was a jury that

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Speaker 9: could eventually see the home, or at least just to

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Speaker 9: have it there in case the evidence needs to be

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Speaker 9: put forward in court. So definitely was not the majority

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Speaker 9: opinion of most of the people involved.

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Speaker 1: Where is you so called secret location where the timbers

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Speaker 1: and the scaffold everything went.

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Speaker 2: Where is the secret location?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 9: I'm actually not sure where that secret location.

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Speaker 2: Is well, it won't take long to find out.

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Speaker 1: Joining me again, high profile experts on the case. Chris

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Speaker 1: mcdunna joining me, who has visited the scene many many times,

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Speaker 1: Director at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide detective, over

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Speaker 1: three hundred homicides under his belt, and host of a

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Speaker 1: YouTube channel where I found him the interview room. Chris mcdotta,

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Speaker 1: what do you think as a homicide detective, what do

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Speaker 1: you think, Antie?

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Speaker 10: I think in one of these cases, in a case

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Speaker 10: like this, this is a huge mistake. This is just

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Speaker 10: my personal opinion. Is the fact that that building has

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Speaker 10: now gone I think the biggest problem. The State's going

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Speaker 10: to have digital and all of the other forensic stuff

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Speaker 10: that they've collected, that's not an issue, but the acoustics

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Speaker 10: of that home are going to play very important roles.

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Speaker 10: And the reason for that is within fifty feet of

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Speaker 10: that house, there is a video camera that allegedly picked

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Speaker 10: up moaning or something to that effect, and it's in

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Speaker 10: the affidavit. Now, if they didn't have an acoustic engineer

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Speaker 10: go in there and measure, then they've got a real problem.

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Speaker 10: And the other problem I see is early on with

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Speaker 10: the university, it sounded like, was you know, pushing this

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Speaker 10: destruction of this house. They said that both the defense

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Speaker 10: and the prosecution and sign off that's not a problem.

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Speaker 10: They'd stipulate it to that this is your lane, you

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Speaker 10: know more than anybody on this channel about you know

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Speaker 10: what we're talking about there. However, in this particular case,

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Speaker 10: the FBI returned later on after the civilian company that

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Speaker 10: was in there to clean the house shop, the FBI

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Speaker 10: returns to take digital, you know, a digital footprint. So

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Speaker 10: if I was a defense immediately, I would file motions

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Speaker 10: that that is uh, you know, painted evidence that they

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Speaker 10: collected because there's video of this company, the company that

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Speaker 10: was going to tear it down, walking in and out

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Speaker 10: of that house multiple times. And now the FBI shows

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Speaker 10: up just before it's going to be torn down, and

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Speaker 10: they decide to collect additional evidence.

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Speaker 2: After it's being cleaned, right Chris mcdonna.

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Speaker 10: Absolutely, And and so what evidence that that evidence will

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Speaker 10: never come in?

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Speaker 11: Right?

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Speaker 10: And it's I mean you you would fight forever if

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Speaker 10: you were the defense attorney to keep that evidence.

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Speaker 1: If I were the prosecutor, I would not have wont

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Speaker 1: it torn down? Chris mcdonna absolutely, not yet, maybe one day,

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Speaker 1: of course, but not yet. I don't know why we

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Speaker 1: could not wait till after the trial. Now joining me

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of the Jacksonville jurisdiction, former FBI agent,

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Speaker 1: former cop Miami Dade. Never lack of business. They're an

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Speaker 1: author of arrest proof yourself. You can find him at

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Speaker 1: Dale Carson Law dot com.

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Speaker 2: Dale.

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Speaker 1: I got a lot of prophesy tearing down the house,

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Speaker 1: and I want to go back to our murderabilia experts,

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Speaker 1: Andy Kahan and Harold Schechter. But Dale Carson, this doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean a hill of beans if when we hear both

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Speaker 1: sides agree, okay, Why because if it's a mistake that

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Speaker 1: they got rid of the house, the defense can use

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Speaker 1: that later if there is a conviction, there could be

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Speaker 1: a claim on appeal of an effective assistance of counsel

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Speaker 1: by that defense lawyer agreeing to the demolition. I mean,

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Speaker 1: is nobody thinking that a word appeal? You don't want

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Speaker 1: to win the case for it to be reversed on

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Speaker 1: a hill. I just think that we made a mad

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Speaker 1: dash to tear the house down, and for what right.

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Speaker 5: There's no person turning it down. I've been to Thouance

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Speaker 5: of crime scene over my life, and I can simply

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Speaker 5: tell you that the destruction of the primary piece of

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Speaker 5: evidence is insane. That house gives you perspective, It gives

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Speaker 5: you a great many other vantage points.

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Speaker 2: Odell.

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Speaker 1: Just right there after, I watched Chris McDonough do his

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Speaker 1: drive through all over the town, all of the very

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Speaker 1: narrow roads, the streets, very narrow streets. I don't really

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Speaker 1: know that two cars can pass each other, especially in

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Speaker 1: that weather when it's snowing and the roads are icy,

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Speaker 1: and the hill that the house is up on a hill.

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Speaker 1: What I'm saying is the layout of the home and

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Speaker 1: seeing the home, as you're just saying, is so much

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Speaker 1: different than a picture. So when I saw Chris McDonough

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Speaker 1: driving through taking a video at about literally two miles

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Speaker 1: an hour, maybe I knew I had to go if

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Speaker 1: I were going to.

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Speaker 2: Talk about this case knowledgeably. And when I got.

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Speaker 1: There, as you're saying, deal Carson, it's so much different

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Speaker 1: than the photos depict. When I went up that hill

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Speaker 1: and went around the house to the back of the house,

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Speaker 1: it's three stories perched up there. I can just see

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Speaker 1: Coburger right now. I can just see him up there

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Speaker 1: in the dark looking down into that home.

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Speaker 2: I mean you could throw a softball to it from

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Speaker 2: the vantage point.

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Speaker 1: There was only a thin line of trees between the

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Speaker 1: house and where I was parked. I went there in

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Speaker 1: the morning, I went there in the afternoon, I went

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Speaker 1: there in the evening, and I went there in the

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Speaker 1: dead of night, after midnight to look down at the

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Speaker 1: house because somebody left a light on there.

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Speaker 2: Light in their deal.

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Speaker 1: Carson completely different than it looks in the pictures.

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Speaker 5: Dale, And of course you could see directly in where

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Speaker 5: the women would be during the they're living there.

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Speaker 2: Dale.

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Speaker 1: I can even look into the home across the street

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Speaker 1: and tell you the name of the dishwashing liquid sitting

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Speaker 1: at the kitchen counter.

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Speaker 5: That's incredible.

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Speaker 2: That's how easy, how tight the space is.

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Speaker 1: So what you're saying about a picture cannot explain it fully.

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Speaker 5: No, that's power and dury. It's probably better for the

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Speaker 5: defense that it is gone from that perspective.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, was that you Chris McDonald jumping in.

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Speaker 10: So to your point, Nancy, the other thing that I

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Speaker 10: think is being overlooked here is the fact that one

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Speaker 10: of the search warrants we forget was to a company

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Speaker 10: called Extreme Networks. There was a search warrant filed on

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Speaker 10: January twenty fifth, twenty three and in that they're looking

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Speaker 10: for intrusion network intrusion into that residence. There was a

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Speaker 10: the one of the affiants, there is a detective by

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Speaker 10: the name of Neil er Errig. He now works for

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Speaker 10: the Secret Service and his expertise is network intrusion. Well,

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Speaker 10: whose laptop are they looking for? If we read that

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Speaker 10: search one, it says description or decrypted access to the

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Speaker 10: following computer Extreme network service tags Kaylee. They're looking for

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Speaker 10: network intrusion into Kaylee's computer.

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Speaker 1: Can you a place stop talking like that? Network intrusion?

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Speaker 1: Are you saying somebody who's trying to hack Kale Gonsolvis's computer?

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Speaker 2: Is that what you're saying?

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Speaker 10: Yes, and I would submit to you it's whoever. If

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Speaker 10: it's BK, he's sitting in the back of that house

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Speaker 10: to your point, looking through those windows and tapping into

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Speaker 10: the network in that home.

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Speaker 2: Once again, can you totally freaked me out?

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Speaker 1: Chris mcdona doctor Cyril weck joining US renowned forensic pathologists,

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Speaker 1: medical legal consultant, author of so many books, including the

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Speaker 1: Life and Deaths of Cyril weckt Memoirs of America's most

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Speaker 1: controversial forensic pathologists. I would be inclined to agree with that,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Weck. Thank you for being with us. You've seen

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Speaker 1: so many many crime scenes and performed so many many autopsies.

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Speaker 1: What evidence, Doctor Wect could have been left behind.

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Speaker 11: In the case of John O. Kennedy. All the statements

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Speaker 11: that your guests have made are extremely applicable and extremely reverant.

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Speaker 11: They're talking about taking down the Texas Schoolbook Repository building

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Speaker 11: and even maybe reconstructed the grassal area where us the

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Speaker 11: most critics believe additional shots were fired. So I strongly

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Speaker 11: believe and without repeating, everything that the gentlemen and lady

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Speaker 11: have made are extremely important. I concur fully and strongly

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Speaker 11: agree that there is no needs, no rush, no purpose,

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Speaker 11: and tearing down the critical physical site associated with those

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Speaker 11: particular mergers.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, Doctor wit and for all I know,

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Speaker 1: the jury may not be allowed to visit, they may

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Speaker 1: not even want to visit, which I doubt. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: they'll want to visit it. But now that opportunity is

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Speaker 1: forever gone, it cannot.

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Speaker 2: Be sumpty dupty. You can't put it back together again.

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Speaker 2: Why they did it? I don't know. I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: never do it. I'm not saying don't do it before

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Speaker 2: the trial.

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Speaker 1: Back to Harold Schechter and Andy Kahn, and then we're

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Speaker 1: going to highly recognize psychoanalysts joining us out of Beverly Hills,

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany Marshall. Back to you, Andy Cohn. I understand it.

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Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, Rachel Shilkey. I understand that

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Speaker 1: all of the lumber, all of the foundation, everything, the bookshelves,

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Speaker 1: the whatever, the kitchen, the bathroom, articles, everything was raised early.

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Speaker 2: In the morning by eight a m. Under the cover

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Speaker 2: of darkness.

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Speaker 1: The Clapbird House at eleven twenty two King Road in

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Speaker 1: Moscow was gone after just ninety minutes. I understand that

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Speaker 1: everything was taken, Rachel Shilkey.

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Speaker 2: Is this correct? And buried in an undisclosed location? Is

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Speaker 2: that true? Rachel?

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Speaker 9: That's what a lot of the reports are saying. It

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Speaker 9: obviously has not been officially confirmed, but it is possible

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Speaker 9: that all of those materials are still with us. We

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Speaker 9: just are not sure where they are at this moment.

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Speaker 1: Andy Kahan, So your experience that these ghuls, they are

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Speaker 1: akin to grave robbers. They'll stop at nothing to get

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Speaker 1: a piece of this house.

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Speaker 4: No, and there's actually precdent for this, but the key

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Speaker 4: distinguishing piece on the two other homes that were raised

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Speaker 4: in Ohio, one which was Ariel Castro that you might

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Speaker 4: remember was the one that kidnapped and sexually tortured three

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Speaker 4: young women for over a decade and kept him in

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Speaker 4: his house.

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Speaker 10: Part of his plea.

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Speaker 4: Deal was again after he was convicted, that his house

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Speaker 4: would be raised and torn down so that nobody could

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Speaker 4: get a quote, a piece of a prize that could

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Speaker 4: be sold.

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Speaker 5: Ohio did the same.

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Speaker 4: Thing with Anthony Soell, a serial killer that murdered eleven

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Speaker 4: women at that time, after he was convicted keyword after convicted,

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Speaker 4: they raised his house again. So I get why they

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Speaker 4: would want to do this, but I agree with you

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Speaker 4: and some of your other panelists that there's no real

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Speaker 4: sense of urgency right now. But trust me, this is

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Speaker 4: just going to be the beginning and the merchandising of

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Speaker 4: Brian Coberger because when he actually does get convicted and

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Speaker 4: gets in the Idaho penitentiary, the murder billy dealers are

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Speaker 4: going to come after him and Droves because he's a

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Speaker 4: treasure trove for profiting for them.

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Speaker 12: Dancy if I could interrupt just for a second about

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Speaker 12: a very good reason to keep the house instead of

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Speaker 12: having torn it down. Sure, you know, there's nothing like

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Speaker 12: walking into a space and feeling what happens there. Like history.

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Speaker 12: It's one thing to like assumb through a book and

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Speaker 12: look at wars and you know young people that were

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Speaker 12: killed in wars. It's another thing to stand on a

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Speaker 12: hilly knoll or a war field and say, young people

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Speaker 12: died here.

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Speaker 1: Harold Schancktery joining us, author of Murderabilia, A History of

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Speaker 1: Crime in one hundred Objects, Harold Dictor, what do you

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Speaker 1: believe that these ghouls would try to get from the house?

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Speaker 6: Well, I mean, you know, any little object connected with

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Speaker 6: it immediately achieves again this kind of ghoulish value or

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Speaker 6: murder abelia collectors. You know, in the past, I wrote

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Speaker 6: a book, for example, about a mass murderer named Anton

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Speaker 6: Propes back in the eighteen sixties who butchered an entire family.

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Speaker 6: He lured each member one by one into the barn

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Speaker 6: and then slaughtered them with an axe. And again, when

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Speaker 6: those crimes were uncovered and these hordes of people descended

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Speaker 6: on the site, they you know, ripped up the floorboards

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Speaker 6: of the you know of the of the barn and

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Speaker 6: the ones that you know, the pieces that had particular

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Speaker 6: value to them were ones that had bloodstains on them.

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Speaker 6: So again that illustrates two things. One, you know, this

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Speaker 6: is not something new. I think one of the important

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Speaker 6: things that it's important to consider is why we are

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Speaker 6: so drawn to and fascinated, you know, by these lurid, sensational,

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Speaker 6: horrific crimes.

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Speaker 1: To begin with, Carol Schackter, I wondered that for many

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Speaker 1: many years. I don't know the answer to that, and

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Speaker 1: I'm just a jd. Okay, we need to shrink. You're right, Schackter.

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Speaker 1: Let's go straight to doctor Bethany Marshall renounce psycho Anas

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Speaker 1: joining us out of the Beverly Hills jurisdiction. Bethany, what

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Speaker 1: is wrong with these people? Did you hear what Scheckter said?

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Speaker 1: And I want to hear from Andy Kahn as well.

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Speaker 2: The floor board would.

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Speaker 1: Have more value, And I actually feel like I'm eating

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Speaker 1: a dirt sandwich right now.

438
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 2: I want to just clean my tongue off.

439
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: The floorboard would have more value if there was blood

440
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: on it.

441
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: Sidney, please give me the tea.

442
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 1: I think I need something a little stronger than tea

443
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: right now, But how could that be? Thank you, It's

444
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:09,600
Speaker 1: got more value and these victim's blood. You know what,

445
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 1: I just had a flashback. My flashback is this doctor Bethany.

446
00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: When I had to testify at my fiancee Keith's murder trial.

447
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: I remember coming down the witness.

448
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: Seat was height up.

449
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: I had to go up two flights of stairs to

450
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: get to it.

451
00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: It was equal to the judge up on his bench.

452
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: And when I came down, I passed the state's table

453
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: and Keith's bloody denim shirt was there. I'm just trying

454
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 1: to get my head wrapped around who would want to

455
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 1: buy a bloody floorboard and what Schacter or Harold Schacter

456
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 1: told me. And I'm pretty sure Andy co is going

457
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: to agree that that floorboard or that mattress or that

458
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: bed sheet would fetch more money on the internet if

459
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 1: the victims of blood was on it.

460
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:05,880
Speaker 2: Who are these people.

461
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 12: You know, Nancy, I have to believe that these collectors

462
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 12: of this murderabilia present panel excluded, of course, are taking

463
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:19,119
Speaker 12: some secret delight in the pain and suffering of the victims,

464
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 12: just like a murder or status takes delight in the

465
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 12: suffering of the victims. So do these collectors, you know, Nancy,

466
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 12: People feel that just because somebody is famous, they must

467
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:36,120
Speaker 12: be fascinating. So like a BTK killer or a Casey Anthony,

468
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 12: just because we know a lot about them and they

469
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 12: are talked about on the air, or these people must

470
00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 12: be fascinating, I want a piece of them. But the

471
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 12: fact is, criminals, murderers, perpetrators, they are incredibly boring people.

472
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 12: Have you ever sat and interviewed one, I'm sure you have.

473
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 12: You know, the crimes may be very notorious and sort

474
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 12: of horrible and hard to wrap one's mind around. But

475
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 12: when you sit with a criminal, their excitement is not

476
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 12: in the conversation with you, or about their travels, or

477
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 12: their children or the latest books they've read. They're so

478
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 12: preoccupied with their internal, sexualized, fetishized world of wanting to

479
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 12: kill people that they're not even present in the room

480
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 12: with you. So I think the public should not confuse

481
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 12: these criminals and their acts as being fascinating in any way.

482
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 12: And the fact is, when you have a floorboard with

483
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 12: blood on it in your home, you yourself become proxy

484
00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,720
Speaker 12: to the crime. I know that's a dramatic statement, not

485
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 12: in reality, it's not like you could be prosecuted for it.

486
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 12: But you are delighting in the anguish of the victims.

487
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 12: You are ignoring what their families have gone through, and

488
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,600
Speaker 12: you have a whole imagination about what happened that has

489
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 12: nothing to do with reality.

490
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Greece, Andy Kahn, you had to

491
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: buy your toenail and hair Stash can't believe I went

492
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,000
Speaker 1: to law school three years at Mercery University and it

493
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: took me two years at NYU to get an l

494
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,840
Speaker 1: and criminal and constitutional law And I'm saying your toenail Stash.

495
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: I never thought those words would come out of my mouth,

496
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 2: but they did. You had to get it from somewhere.

497
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: What freaks are dealing in a killer's toenails? And I

498
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 1: agree and disagree with Dr Bethany Marshall. I think some

499
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: people want a piece of these victims. They want the

500
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: bloody bed sheets, they want the bloody floorboard, and can

501
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: you and made the pain Andy con of the victims' families.

502
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sitting here right now wondering for the

503
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 1: first time because I really don't like to think about it,

504
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: and I try to avoid thinking about it. What happened

505
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,120
Speaker 1: to Keith bloody shirt.

506
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: Where is it? Did they destroy it?

507
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: Is it in a plastic bag somewhere in an evidence room?

508
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,320
Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine?

509
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: And Andy, do you really think these ghules are gonna

510
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: give up? They're going to find where the home remains

511
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: were buried. They're going to find it, and they're going

512
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: to try and get it. But back to my original question,

513
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: who are these people? You had to buy those toenails somewhere?

514
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: From who you know?

515
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 4: From a victim's perspective, and as someone who's worked with

516
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 4: homicide survivors for over thirty years, there's absolutely nothing more

517
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 4: nauseating and discussing when you find out the person who

518
00:31:57,920 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 4: murdered one of your loved ones now has items being

519
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,720
Speaker 4: hawked by third party dealers simply for pure profits. Like

520
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 4: it or not, you have small groups of people out here,

521
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, idolized serial killers, mass murderers, high profile killers,

522
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,040
Speaker 4: and they want to own a piece of their soul.

523
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 10: And this is a untapped.

524
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 4: Market that they've realized that not only can they own

525
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 4: a piece of whatever they have, they can also make

526
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 4: money off of it. So you have about seven dealers

527
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 4: throughout the country that specialized in obtaining items from high

528
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 4: profile killers strictly for the purpose of profiting, and anything

529
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 4: that you can get that has something associated with the victim.

530
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 4: Because I have actually seen items that were actually used

531
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 4: to kill their victims being sold at an open market.

532
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 4: That is like the ultimate get. It's like a treasure hunt,

533
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 4: and nothing is going to stop them from trying to

534
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,280
Speaker 4: obtain items from the Idaho killer.

535
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: Stop plays.

536
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,360
Speaker 1: I've got to go to Dale Carson on something. Dale,

537
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 1: do you ever, I mean, you and I have tried

538
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: a lot of cases. Everybody on this panel has dealt

539
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 1: with a lot of similar cases. Well, not similar to Idaho,

540
00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 1: because that's quadruple murder, but murder cases. Dale, do you

541
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: ever just get sick to your stomach because everything Andy

542
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: con just said, Harold Schechter, doctor Cyril Wicked, everything they

543
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: said is correct, But something about, Hey, what about this?

544
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: Do you remember in the Bible how the Roman soldiers

545
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: gambled to try to get Christ's robe and his crown.

546
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: Of thorns all that was left and took it somewhere.

547
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 2: I mean as far as I can. I mean, thinking

548
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 2: all the way back in history, how callous and awful

549
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: that is.

550
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 1: Dale, Just thinking of someone trying to get remnants of

551
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: this home, and the more gory and the closer that

552
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 1: remnant was to one of the victims, the more valuable

553
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 1: it would be. Do you ever just want to quit

554
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 1: Dale Carson when you hear things like that.

555
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,080
Speaker 5: Oh, absolutely, you've missed one ceiling point. It's the smell

556
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 5: of a recent crime sheet, and it's pubbling because the

557
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 5: lines are lost basically no reason at all. Yes, all

558
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 5: the material wealth that they have gathered all these years

559
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 5: is of no meaning this one, right?

560
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: Is this Harold?

561
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:48,439
Speaker 5: Or yeah?

562
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 6: This is Harold? Can I just interject from ways?

563
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 2: Yes?

564
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 6: I mean, one word that we haven't been using so

565
00:34:54,719 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 6: far in this discussion is evil. And you know, evil

566
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 6: exerts its own very dark fascination often in the newspaper

567
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 6: articles that I've read, when reporters have seen these crowds

568
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 6: of morbid curiosity seekers descend on these places and come

569
00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 6: away with bloody splinters and so on, they talk about

570
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 6: them as relics, And you know, there's a kind of

571
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,760
Speaker 6: they're almost the flip side, the dark side, the shadow

572
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 6: side of saints relics. You know, Saints relics contains something

573
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,400
Speaker 6: of the holy and the sacred, a lot of the murderabilia.

574
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 6: And again this is you know, not that these people

575
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:43,359
Speaker 6: are conscious of it, but they're little objects you know

576
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 6: that you know that sort of resonate with the power

577
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 6: of evil, and there's something about you know, there's a

578
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 6: dark attraction to that for whatever reason. I mean our

579
00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 6: you know, perhaps the psychoanalyst on our panel, whose name unfortunately.

580
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,840
Speaker 1: For doctor Bethany Marshall. Hey, let's follow up on what

581
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: Schechter is saying. You're hearing Harold Secter, author of murder Abelia.

582
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: What about it, doctor Bethany.

583
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:10,879
Speaker 13: Well, I think it is an aspect of evil. I

584
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 13: think that because it's not just like othering where you

585
00:36:14,680 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 13: know that somebody suffered but you're kind of callous to

586
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 13: it and you don't really care.

587
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 12: This is at a whole other level. This is actually

588
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 12: taking delight in somebody suffering. That's really very different. It's

589
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:32,080
Speaker 12: having the bloody shirt or the bloody floorboard and looking

590
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 12: at it and saying, aha, I have something, and you

591
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 12: are right. I have something of the victim. I have

592
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,400
Speaker 12: something of the crime. I am inserting myself into the

593
00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 12: notoriety of this case, and I feel important because of it.

594
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 12: It's really, you know, in one drop of blood is

595
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 12: an entire world of English and hurt, the English of

596
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 12: the families, the English of the victim, the English of

597
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 12: the community. That the reverberating effect of the crime, and

598
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 12: these people are clutching this one little relic and.

599
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 13: They are happy.

600
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,919
Speaker 12: How different is that, Nancy than the perpetrator who acts out.

601
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,399
Speaker 12: I mean, there's a difference between impulse and action. These

602
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:14,840
Speaker 12: people are thinking the perpetrator is doing, but they're thinking

603
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:17,840
Speaker 12: the same thing the perpetrators thinking. They're just not acting

604
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 12: out on it.

605
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,680
Speaker 1: Doctor Cerial Weck joining me, renowned pathologists who has seen

606
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: so many high profile autopsies, performed them and been to

607
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 1: so many crime scenes. Doctor wecked, in your opinion, what

608
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: could have benefited this jury had they been able to

609
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: go to the crime scene.

610
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 11: I believe it would have been highly relevant for them

611
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 11: who have gone to the crime scene and two have

612
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 11: specifically visualized themselves from the sixth floor southeast core a

613
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 11: window where they claim as well did the shooting, and

614
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 11: then to replace themselves downstairs where the shots who were

615
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,280
Speaker 11: heard and see whether it fits in with the audio

616
00:38:06,600 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 11: and with the video evidence. And also to have gone

617
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:16,280
Speaker 11: then to the grassy ole area, a short distance away

618
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 11: where they claim where the critics claim there was a

619
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 11: second shooter extremely important. I think the points that everybody

620
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 11: has made are very valuable. There's no reason in the

621
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 11: world to destroy a highly relevant crime scene unless it's

622
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 11: imperative for purposes of some significant new construction.

623
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: Doctor wag Do you are so right because just recently

624
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: I went back to the site of the jfk assassination

625
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,319
Speaker 1: and it was completely different than anything I had ever

626
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: read about or imagined. The grassy knoll, the book depository,

627
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: the fence across.

628
00:38:57,320 --> 00:39:00,600
Speaker 2: The knoll, the bridge for many people speculating the second

629
00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 2: shot was fired.

630
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: It's completely different than anything I imagined. And when I

631
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: say I want a true verdict on this case, I

632
00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: mean a true verdict. I don't mean a verdict based

633
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: on speculation about what the crime scene may have.

634
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,480
Speaker 2: Been or what I thought it was. I mean what

635
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:19,880
Speaker 2: I know the crime scene is.

636
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: I never tried a single case without visiting the crime scene.

637
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: I think I hear Chris mcdonne jumping in, and you

638
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 1: mentioned something earlier about acoustics and what could have.

639
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 2: Been heard next door.

640
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: Well, I think the jury's going to have a question

641
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:40,080
Speaker 1: about what the survivors heard Dylan and Bethany, and I'm

642
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: just curious, will that mean an issue at trial which

643
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: they could have figured that out if they could have

644
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:47,720
Speaker 1: gone to the scene.

645
00:39:47,840 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 10: You know, Nancy, I think it's going to be I

646
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 10: agree with you one hundred percent, because at this point,

647
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 10: you know, the whole purpose of maintaining that crime scene,

648
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 10: as we all know, is at one percent, just that

649
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 10: one percent the ninety nine. Maybe there I either confidence

650
00:40:05,280 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 10: of the state, et cetera, but it's that one juror

651
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 10: that sits in that jury box and makes the determination

652
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 10: of whether or not they believe the testimony that they're hearing.

653
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:21,800
Speaker 10: There's nothing that can replace the eye, all five senses

654
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 10: being immersed into that crime scene. Did one of the

655
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:32,480
Speaker 10: witnesses hear the stairs creaking when she testifies that Coburger

656
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 10: was coming down the stairs? Did she what did she

657
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:39,799
Speaker 10: look through her door? And if so, what was her

658
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,040
Speaker 10: vantage point in terms of visually? What could she she

659
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 10: what could she feel? And it's going to go just

660
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 10: like that, I think in the jury.

661
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 12: And then you know, to add to that, what about

662
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 12: would the jurorsy a teddy bear on one of the

663
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 12: student's beds and they feel the reality that these were

664
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,759
Speaker 12: human beings. The collectors of murderabilia dehumanize the victims. But

665
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 12: also beyond the sixth senses is the humanization of the

666
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 12: young people who live there. As I was saying earlier,

667
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 12: seeing that they may have had a frat party, or

668
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 12: maybe there's a book lying around pertaining to a class

669
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 12: they were taking, or some of their studies, a pair

670
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 12: of sunglasses, a picture of them on a boat. To

671
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 12: picture and feel the victims is a way to emphatically

672
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 12: immerse yourself into what happened to them and who they

673
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 12: were as human beings. And that's quite the opposite of

674
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 12: these rules. As you refer to them that are just

675
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 12: picking away at the scraps of that house. It's to

676
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 12: make these young people real, and you can't do that

677
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 12: by looking at a three D scan or a picture

678
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 12: or blood spatter app evidence.

679
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 1: Another issue is to Andy Kahn joining us, we have

680
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: been told, of course, all the work was done am

681
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: it was done under the darkness of the morning hours,

682
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 1: that the remains of that home have been taken and

683
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: buried and are being guarded by police. All you have

684
00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:09,040
Speaker 1: to do is some search dump locations in Moscow Idaho,

685
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: and I've already pulled up one, two, three, four, five, six,

686
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: seven eight.

687
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:15,600
Speaker 2: Okay, So how.

688
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 1: Hard is that going to be for these ghouls to

689
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: locate it and wait for that one moment and get

690
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: something of that home.

691
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 4: There's a will, there's a way just looking anything else.

692
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 4: We've seen prison guards take items from high profile killers.

693
00:42:31,560 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 4: There was a prison guard, believe it or not, that

694
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 4: got a hold of Jeffrey Dahmer's shaving kit once Dahmer

695
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 4: was killed in prison and then put it.

696
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 5: Up for sale.

697
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 4: So there's you know, if you want something bad enough,

698
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 4: you're gonna find a way to get it. And right now,

699
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 4: in this day and age, Coburger is about as big

700
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:54,880
Speaker 4: a name as it gets in the murder billy industry.

701
00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 4: And anybody that can get a piece of anything that

702
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 4: he has, any that's associated with him, and especially from

703
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,919
Speaker 4: a murder scene, it will be found and it will

704
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 4: end up being sold in the open market.

705
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: We wait as justice unfolds. Goodbye, friend,