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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome, and I'm Doug Golli. Man. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: All Ball, the All Basketball podcast. We dropped one once

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Speaker 1: a week and this week our guest is Frand McCaffrey. UH.

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Speaker 1: Coach McCaffrey or Franny as most of you know him

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Speaker 1: if you're in the basketball industry, recruited me to go

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Speaker 1: to Notre Dame. UM. I know probably more about his

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Speaker 1: story about how he met his wife, Margaret. UM about

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Speaker 1: his boys. Of course, everybody knows, uh some of the

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Speaker 1: stories of him bringing up two boys, uh than maybe

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Speaker 1: anybody in college basketball. He's a dear, dear friend, and

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Speaker 1: I've told him before and if you listen to this podcast,

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Speaker 1: we talked about real things. I personally think on the

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Speaker 1: reason that they got fired Notre Dame. You know, when

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Speaker 1: I was a freshman, we had another fresh high school senior,

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Speaker 1: David Lawazarian, who I played with in high school. He

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Speaker 1: was coming in the next year. He did play one

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Speaker 1: year Notre Dame for transferring to pepper Dye, and we

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Speaker 1: had Pat Garrety. UM. I felt like we were even

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Speaker 1: though we struggled our first year in the Big East,

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Speaker 1: we were close. And then you know, when I get

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Speaker 1: in trouble and leave, and they give the scholarship to

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Dillon. Disrespect to Jimmy Dillon or add more, White

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Speaker 1: took over as as point guard. Set you back in

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Speaker 1: terms of your plan more than anything. It didn't cast

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Speaker 1: a great shadow on Notre Dame. So even though they

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Speaker 1: got Todd Murphy and and they were better, they weren't

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Speaker 1: good enough to stay employed. And he ultimately left and

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Speaker 1: got the UNC Greensboro job. But I think the world

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Speaker 1: of him as a coach, as a person, and as

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Speaker 1: a recruiter. And it's gonna be great for you to

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Speaker 1: hear me catching up with him. Some of them look back,

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Speaker 1: some of the look at right now at his Iowa club,

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Speaker 1: who just survived Northwestern at home and an unbelievable win.

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Speaker 1: I want to give you a couple of thoughts on Duke,

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Speaker 1: who I saw in person at twenty three point come

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Speaker 1: back on the road at Louisville. Actually, it's more kind

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Speaker 1: of about Louisville. Right, Louisville violated so many of the

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Speaker 1: codes of ethics. If you have a big lead in

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Speaker 1: trying to close out a game, right, they're up twenty three,

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Speaker 1: up twenty they're taking quick long shots. That's a mistake.

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Speaker 1: They missed three front ends of a one and one oops.

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Speaker 1: They turned the ball over and gave up layups against

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Speaker 1: full core pressure. Can't do it. There was a lack

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Speaker 1: of luck. Two minutes ago, um Christian Cunningham got an

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Speaker 1: offensive rebound, kind of defensive rebound when the ball hit

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Speaker 1: off of Zion Williamson. Instead of dripping up the sideline,

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Speaker 1: he dribbled back where Williamson was laying and slipped on

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Speaker 1: a wet spot. Duke laid the ball instead of having

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Speaker 1: the ball up five and seemingly staving off the comeback.

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Speaker 1: Now suddens a three point game and ultimately they end

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Speaker 1: up losing. They fouled, which allowed Duke to score with

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Speaker 1: the clock stopped. They gave up open three point shots.

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Speaker 1: You know, make teams take contested two's, make teams beat

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Speaker 1: you with the clock running. Make your free throws, especially

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Speaker 1: front ends of one and one's. You know, when Zai

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Speaker 1: Willmson's in foul, trouble out with four foul and you're

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Speaker 1: out of twenty three point lee, take the ball to

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Speaker 1: the rim, especially when he comes back in. They didn't

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Speaker 1: do any of these things, and then Duke hits a

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Speaker 1: bunch of shots. I'll give my thoughts in Zion in

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Speaker 1: a second. But as much as Duke was outstanding in

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Speaker 1: how they were flatliners, they didn't overreact to being down

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Speaker 1: twenty three. If I had to say to Duke win

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Speaker 1: or Louisville lost. Louisville lost because of those things. You

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Speaker 1: cannot miss front ends of one and one, You cannot

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Speaker 1: give up layups, you know, pick six turnovers, and you

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Speaker 1: cannot shoot quickly and try and go for dagger shots.

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Speaker 1: Just take layups, easy open shots, drag out the shot clock,

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Speaker 1: score at the end of shot clock, get to the

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Speaker 1: foul line, stabilize your defense. They did none of this.

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Speaker 1: All right, let me tell you about what I saw

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Speaker 1: when I watched Zion Williamson in person. So look, Zion

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Speaker 1: is probably I think he's measured out in bare feet

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Speaker 1: below six ft six and that looked about how tall

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Speaker 1: he was, and he's wide, and he once he kind

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Speaker 1: of gets going, is crazy, athletic, latterly pretty good as well. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: vertically tries to block every shot, tries to run through

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Speaker 1: every pass, doesn't always have the best footwork, and trying

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Speaker 1: to run through passes in terms of using his top

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Speaker 1: foot sometimes he he gets lazy and look, that's how

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Speaker 1: Duke plays. Duke's trying to steal every every pass and

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Speaker 1: uh and just overplay, over play, over play. And Louisville

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Speaker 1: did a great job up until they pressed and zwned

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Speaker 1: and and choked and and Louisville choked. Um, But I

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Speaker 1: want to make sure that you don't in your mind

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Speaker 1: mischaracterize him. He's not Lebron, He's not Ben Simmons. He's

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Speaker 1: not a true ball handler, even though he can handle

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Speaker 1: the ball, he's his skill defensively will be a more

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Speaker 1: athletic version of Draymond Green, in that he can guard

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Speaker 1: one through five, he can switch on the ball screens,

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Speaker 1: he can guard bigs. He's obviously a crazy weak side

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Speaker 1: shot blocker with his jumping ability, long arms and timing.

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Speaker 1: And he's big, strong, and he's pretty tough and he competes.

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Speaker 1: So I think he's a power forward that becomes a

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Speaker 1: small ball five. And he can also bring the ball

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Speaker 1: up the court a lot like Draymond Um. Vertically, there

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Speaker 1: there's some Blake Griffin to him. Um. There's a little

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Speaker 1: bit of lamar Odom to him, you know, as a

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Speaker 1: as kind of a stretch for with kind of a

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Speaker 1: he doesn't have a hitch, it's just not a great

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Speaker 1: looking shot from the perimeter, but that that can be helped.

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Speaker 1: He's only taking one pull up jump shot all year.

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Speaker 1: Obviously there's room massive room for development in terms of

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Speaker 1: his skill. He does go mostly left and sometimes when

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Speaker 1: he can't dunk, struggles finishing going to his right again.

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Speaker 1: All it can be worked on. But I think the

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Speaker 1: big thing for for Zion is last year when people

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Speaker 1: saw him, they're like, not in great shape, doesn't always

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Speaker 1: play hard, and um, how skilled is he? Now? You

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Speaker 1: see him in his skills improved. He's in better shape

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Speaker 1: and he plays hard a good portion, if not most

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Speaker 1: of the time. And if you watch Duke, he's really

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Speaker 1: their leader. RJ. Bart's their best player right now and

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Speaker 1: the one guy who they play through more than anybody.

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Speaker 1: But they look Zion brings their energy. Zion is a

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Speaker 1: what's that? Eric Mangini calls it a force multiplier. He

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Speaker 1: he raises up the intensity of shoot around, of warm

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Speaker 1: ups and obviously of the games. At the end of

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Speaker 1: that game he wanted to take over. I want to

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Speaker 1: take over. So coming into the season, I thought r J.

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Speaker 1: Barrett was with that question. The number one pick. R

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Speaker 1: J shot does look a bit mechanical, and if he

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Speaker 1: does have the ball in his hands, there's not a

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Speaker 1: lot that he does offensively. Defensively, he's better than I

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Speaker 1: thought in terms of being active, and he did compete.

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Speaker 1: And I like Cam Reddish and I think Cam is

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Speaker 1: gonna be a guy who plays in the NBA for

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Speaker 1: fifteen years and be a score. But I don't think

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Speaker 1: it's close. I think you take Zion Williams in number

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Speaker 1: one and you don't even look back. My concerns with

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Speaker 1: r J. Barrett Um. I talk with some NBA scouts

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Speaker 1: and I pose this to him and a lot of

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Speaker 1: them nod their heads. Not not everybody agrees with it.

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Speaker 1: I think r J is really good. I think he's

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Speaker 1: a winner. I think he's a competitor um and I

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Speaker 1: do think he competes at the defensive end. But my

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Speaker 1: question becomes his His jump shot is quite mechanical, and

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Speaker 1: he's gonna have to develop a lot more fluidity in it,

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Speaker 1: considering how much he wants to dominate the basketball and

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Speaker 1: how people are gonna make him shoot. Uh. But he's

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Speaker 1: got the makings of what could be a great player.

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Speaker 1: My my question becomes, this is like the opposite of

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Speaker 1: the of the Zion Williamson. His role with this team

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Speaker 1: is a lot like his role with most any team

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Speaker 1: he's played on, in that he's the guy. He's the Alpha,

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Speaker 1: he's the ball handler, he's the shot maker, he's the creator,

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Speaker 1: he's everything. And if you can't make any shots to

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Speaker 1: keep people honest in the NBA, to make them fight

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Speaker 1: over the screen, or to make them challenge you on

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Speaker 1: jump shots, and you're not good enough, then you don't

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Speaker 1: get that role. And if you don't get that role,

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Speaker 1: can he actually succeed? I don't have an answer for that,

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Speaker 1: but I'm fascinated to learn it. Let me quickly turn

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Speaker 1: to the NBA. UH. Two things that I one thing

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Speaker 1: I know to be true and one thing that I

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Speaker 1: believe to be true, and it's backed up by Danny Ainge. First,

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Speaker 1: the thing I know to be true. There's been a

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Speaker 1: lot of talk over the last week and a half

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Speaker 1: or so leading up into the All Star Break over

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Speaker 1: the Lakers and what happened with No. Orleans Pelicans. But

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have to open up your mind to the

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Speaker 1: understanding that the Pelicans, who basically threw. Brian Windhorse admitted

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Speaker 1: they were tweaking. The Lakers tried to poison the well

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Speaker 1: so badly. I was told that the proposed trades that

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Speaker 1: have been out there where the Lakers were willing to

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Speaker 1: give up Zubach is no longer there one years old,

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Speaker 1: brandon Ingram, Kyle Kuzma, Josh Hard Alonzo ball and draft

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Speaker 1: picks and cap cap relief. We're not close to what

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Speaker 1: the Lakers actually offered, which would make a lot more

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Speaker 1: sense whether it was Lebron James's team hitting full panic

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Speaker 1: mode thinking they might not get another player, or the

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Speaker 1: New Orleans Pelicans tweaking the Lakers by leaking that information

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Speaker 1: to the media. I was told no such demand, no

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Speaker 1: such trade offer was ever made, and that this is

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Speaker 1: simply a case the Pelicans trying to trying to poison

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Speaker 1: the well. And I wonder, like, think about it. If

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Speaker 1: you're the Knicks and you land Zion, are you really

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Speaker 1: gonna give up on Zion? For Anthony Davis, it is

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Speaker 1: New York City. It is about drawing a crowd, and

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Speaker 1: I think you can win big with Zion. And whether

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Speaker 1: you get Kemba Walker or you get Kyrie Irving and

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Speaker 1: you get Kevin Durant, Like, aren't you gonna want a

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Speaker 1: guy who can guard multiple positions? I guess you get

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Speaker 1: that with Anthony Davis. But you're gonna have to pay

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Speaker 1: Anthony Davis in his second year if he stays a

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Speaker 1: ridiculous sum of money as opposed to Zion playing on

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Speaker 1: a rookie deal. It's not a locked up since the

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Speaker 1: Knicks have much to give in return. Letlan, the Knicks

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Speaker 1: are gonna want to trade that draft pick. The same

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Speaker 1: can be said for the Boston Celtics. The Celtics have

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Speaker 1: the well, does Anthony Davis really want to be or

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Speaker 1: they're gonna try and resigned resigned Kyrie Irving? And if

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Speaker 1: Kyrie Irving doesn't resign, why would they trade Jayson Tatum

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Speaker 1: for Anthony Davis. That doesn't make any sense considering the

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Speaker 1: construct of their lineup. So many things have to go

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Speaker 1: right for the Pelicans to get a better offer than

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Speaker 1: whatever the offer was for the Lakers. Meanwhile, the Lakers

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Speaker 1: smartly pulled out. Now did they pull out in time

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Speaker 1: to save their season? We'll find out after the All

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Speaker 1: Star break. Luke's gonna remain as their coach and before

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Speaker 1: Lebron got hurt. They were top seven in all defensive categories.

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Speaker 1: It's really important to note that like playing with Lebron

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Speaker 1: and playing without Lebron are two completely different ways of

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Speaker 1: playing basketball, and it takes players a while to learn

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Speaker 1: how to play with him. Then he goes out for

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Speaker 1: seventeen games, comes back for one, sits another one, and

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Speaker 1: you have to learn how to play with without him

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Speaker 1: after learning how to play with him. I think that's

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Speaker 1: as much of the cause for the uneven season in

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Speaker 1: l A as it is the fact that you know

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Speaker 1: coaching or luck or some you know brain flash lens

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Speaker 1: like that of Contavious Caldwell Pope. Let's sketch up with

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Speaker 1: coach McCaffrey and Fanny. I want to get to your

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Speaker 1: playing career, getting into coaching and what led you to

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Speaker 1: ultimately leave Sienna and go to Iowa. In a moment,

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Speaker 1: but kind of give me the state of the Hawkeyes

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Speaker 1: and last time we saw you, you went on an

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Speaker 1: incredible shot by Bohannan. Uh. You guys want a couple

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Speaker 1: in a row. It feels like it feels like the

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Speaker 1: team seems to have figured out who they are and

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Speaker 1: what you want them to be. But again, these are

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Speaker 1: outside perspectives. If you were going to give a State

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Speaker 1: of the Hawkeyes address, how would it start? Doug? I

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Speaker 1: would tell you this, this team is is a connected group,

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Speaker 1: and you know what that means. You know, whether we're

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Speaker 1: coming down in transition, whether we're running motion where the

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Speaker 1: running sets. Uh, you know, we're executing. We've got willing pastors,

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Speaker 1: we've got willing screeners. Defensively is where it really manifests itself.

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Speaker 1: And last year I would tell you we were not

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Speaker 1: a connected group defensively, whether we were changing defenses or

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Speaker 1: we stuck with one. You know, it always seemed like

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Speaker 1: there was a breakdown somewhere. You know, we play hard

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Speaker 1: for twenty two seconds and give up an easy shot,

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Speaker 1: you know, three seconds on the shot clock. Uh, we're

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Speaker 1: rebounding better. But I think I think at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, we're a little tougher than we were,

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Speaker 1: you know. And and it was interesting was two years

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Speaker 1: ago a lot of the same core guys are with us,

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Speaker 1: and they were tougher then, but we had still like

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Speaker 1: Peter Jock who led the league in scoring. So that

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Speaker 1: was a big difference, uh, in that team versus a

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Speaker 1: team from last year. So this team I think has

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Speaker 1: a lot more weapons. So for example, you know, we

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Speaker 1: we we survived about three and a half to four

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Speaker 1: weeks stretch without Carza, m VP of the two K

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Speaker 1: Classic in New York, had a five game stretch for

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Speaker 1: his averaging over and then get some foul shop against

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Speaker 1: Indiana and doesn't score against Worth. Yet we still win. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, Coca's numbers have been phenomenal, but we beat

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Speaker 1: Indiana on the road. I think he had seven or nine.

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Speaker 1: We're still able to win. That wouldn't have happened a

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Speaker 1: year ago. So there's various people that are stepping up.

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Speaker 1: Isaiah Moss had a five game stretch where he was

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Speaker 1: absolutely phenomenal and then did score for two straight games.

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Speaker 1: Well then okay, boll Hanna steps up. Uh, Joe We's

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Speaker 1: camp steps up kind of McCaffrey steps up, and Soda

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Speaker 1: makes daily So that we just seem to have more

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Speaker 1: guys ready to go and when we need them, and

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Speaker 1: everybody supports each other. You can see that on the

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Speaker 1: bench the guys were were out of the game with

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Speaker 1: Blannon at that shot where this is happy as the

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Speaker 1: guys are on the floor. Um, there's a there's actually

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Speaker 1: a bunch. I want to dig in on that, Um,

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Speaker 1: how how did you kind of rebuild the culture to

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Speaker 1: one of toughness? Right? Because anybody who knows you, and

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Speaker 1: frankly knows Margaret, your wife, I mean she was an

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Speaker 1: incredibly tough basketball players. She's a tough cookie. Um, you've

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Speaker 1: grown up in Philly, your entire coaching career, your team's

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Speaker 1: kind of exuded toughness. But yeah, last year that wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: I would I would, I would offer up this. I

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Speaker 1: think some of it's probably last year, and I want

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Speaker 1: to know some of the things that you've done. But

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Speaker 1: and and some of it's the personnel that you have

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Speaker 1: and guys figured out. I also think that losing those

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Speaker 1: two games early in the Big Ten, While coaches hate

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Speaker 1: playing those early Big Ten games traditionally, I kind of

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Speaker 1: felt like it it helped you center your guys and

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Speaker 1: you know, that early season success that you had, You're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: look that's not the Big Ten Michian State. When they

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Speaker 1: hammered you, guys, it seemed to help get some of

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Speaker 1: your messages across. Give me the reality of how you're

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Speaker 1: able to kind of re establish your program as one

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Speaker 1: that does play defense. That does do the little things

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Speaker 1: to win these games. Well, you're you're right, Doug. I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you're if you're in this business, you're a competitive individual.

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Speaker 1: And I've been at various places, both as an assistant

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Speaker 1: as the head coach, and there's a level of toughness

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Speaker 1: that's required. And I think a lot of times when

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Speaker 1: you hear that word, you're thinking physical toughness, and you

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Speaker 1: were a great example of that. Yeah you were. You

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Speaker 1: were a pretty tough guy. But what what you were

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Speaker 1: was a guy who understood the game to a whole

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Speaker 1: another level, and you you knew what was necessary in

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Speaker 1: this game. Okay, we're playing a team that is changing defenses,

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Speaker 1: We're playing a team that's half court man demand is

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Speaker 1: going to be trying to be physical with you. Can

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Speaker 1: we score and transition in this game? Do we have

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Speaker 1: to execute our set plays in this game coming down

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Speaker 1: the stretch time and score. That's the toughness that we lacked.

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Speaker 1: We we we weren't able to perform the level that

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Speaker 1: was required in those situations coming down the stretch. In

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Speaker 1: the five point game. You know, there's you know, you

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Speaker 1: look at teams, Doug, and one team wins twenty other

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Speaker 1: team loses twenty. Well, one team is not great, the

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Speaker 1: other team horrible. They're actually very close. But one team

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Speaker 1: has the ability to win five point games. The other

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Speaker 1: team doesn't. So you have to number one, have complete

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Speaker 1: buy in. Two. Okay, we have to make change, all right.

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Speaker 1: We have to make change collectively. We have to make

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Speaker 1: change individually. And it can't be the head coach pointing

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Speaker 1: at each guy in Santaca. You have to change. No, no no, no,

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Speaker 1: we all have to change. Okay, we're all in this together.

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Speaker 1: We we win together, we lose together, and we figure

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Speaker 1: it out together. So for me, it was challenge them,

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Speaker 1: hold them accountable. But know that you know I have

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Speaker 1: your back, and we're gonna get better. We're gonna stay

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Speaker 1: the course and and we're gonna be better than we

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Speaker 1: were last year. And you're right, Doug, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think you make a great point. We we we established

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Speaker 1: ourselves in New York as a team that's clearly better

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Speaker 1: than we were a year before. But how do you survive?

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Speaker 1: You know, Cook didn't play two games, guards that didn't

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Speaker 1: play four games, Bohannan had a few off games earlier

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Speaker 1: in the year. Bohannan's in foul trouble against Yukon. You know,

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Speaker 1: Connor plays great, uh, Joe Weese Camp came on the

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Speaker 1: scene and clearly made it difference, enabled Nicholas Bear to

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Speaker 1: kind of be who he is and be that guy

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Speaker 1: one of the top six men in the country. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think there's a lot of a lot

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Speaker 1: of truth to what you said about those early Big

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Speaker 1: ten games. No, we don't like playing Big ten games

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Speaker 1: in early December, but the reality is twenty league games

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Speaker 1: helps our conference get more teams in the n C

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Speaker 1: Double A tournament. So that's what we're gonna do. So

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Speaker 1: rather than complain about it, you better have complete buy in.

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Speaker 1: And if you get your ears pinned back like we

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Speaker 1: did against Michigan State, okay, where do we go from here?

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Speaker 1: We got a long way to go. You know. One

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Speaker 1: of the things that I think is we lost to

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin at home, and a game we could have won.

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Speaker 1: We lose the Michigan State on the road, and we

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Speaker 1: lose the Brodil of the road and then you know,

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Speaker 1: you turn on the radio, you turn on TV, and

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of people panick. You know, you can't

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Speaker 1: start owing three Well, you know, you sort of can't

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Speaker 1: you have seventeen left in the league. Okay, so you

347
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Speaker 1: can and we had more games to play other than that,

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Speaker 1: so you can get the ship turned around. But the

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Speaker 1: important thing is to be honest with yourself in assessing

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Speaker 1: what can you do differently? And then what can we

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Speaker 1: do differently? All right, let's go back. Um, I remember

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Speaker 1: of the stories that that I remember from people who

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Speaker 1: coached me and you recruited me. My like, my favorite

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Speaker 1: story is that the two stories you told me about

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Speaker 1: playing at Wake Forest for for Kyle Tacy. The one is, uh,

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Speaker 1: you guys had a rule right where underneath out of bounds,

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Speaker 1: you're in zone sidelight out of bounds. You're in man, Mike, Mike,

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Speaker 1: correct in the rule. You are correct, okay, and you're

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Speaker 1: playing at Cameron Indoor Stadium. This is your your freshman

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Speaker 1: starting at point guard in the A C C. Right

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Speaker 1: and again this this is the tell me if my

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Speaker 1: memory is correct. But the ball goes out of bounds.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of an odd angle, but it was on

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Speaker 1: the sideline, not on the baseline, and so you're in

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Speaker 1: man to man and those other for you idiots are

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Speaker 1: in zone, and of course they throw it in out

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Speaker 1: of bounds play throw it in for an elbow jump shot.

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Speaker 1: Where had you been in his zone would have been

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Speaker 1: where you were supposed to be as a six ft

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Speaker 1: four in skinny uh hundred whatever pounds, soaking wet freshman

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Speaker 1: out of Philadelphia. And so Kyle tas he does what

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Speaker 1: all old coaches do. He turns around and whips and

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Speaker 1: throws another guy into the game for you and takes

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Speaker 1: you out and proceeds to burrate you. Is that correct? Correct?

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Speaker 1: And instead of instead of simply walking and sitting down

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Speaker 1: on the bench, U remind me, did you say, did

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Speaker 1: you say what? What exactly did you say to him? Well?

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Speaker 1: What what I said was, you know, he said, what

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Speaker 1: are you doing? Don't you know we're supposed to be

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Speaker 1: his zone? I said, Coach, the bow went out of

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Speaker 1: bounds on the side we're supposed to be a man.

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Speaker 1: And he looked at me, and he looked and so, well,

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Speaker 1: I should have done what you just said. I should

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Speaker 1: have walked to the end of the bench and just

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Speaker 1: sat down, and he probably would have put me back

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Speaker 1: in the game. Instead, I said, you should have left

387
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Speaker 1: me in and taken those four guys out. So that

388
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Speaker 1: virtually assured that I didn't get back in that game,

389
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Speaker 1: but I did because you know, that's not the way

390
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Speaker 1: you're supposed to talk to your coach. But I was

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Speaker 1: sort of baffled by, like I'm getting taken out because

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Speaker 1: I'm right, and you know, it was it was. It

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Speaker 1: was something that I always remember. I mean, you remember

394
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Speaker 1: plays like that. It's the first time I ever played

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Speaker 1: at Cameron or you know what it's like. You've been there,

396
00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:24,360
Speaker 1: it's never been amazing. Well, it's it's it's it's well,

397
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Speaker 1: I've been to them all. I've been at Allen Field House.

398
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Speaker 1: I've been to the Dean Dome. I mean that guy

399
00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,760
Speaker 1: played in Carmichael Colisseum. You know I played in cold

400
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Speaker 1: Field House. I mean, you've done have places I've been.

401
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Speaker 1: You know, I grew up in the Palestra, I mean,

402
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Speaker 1: you name it. I've been to Pauli Pavilion. There's no

403
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Speaker 1: there's no place I haven't been. That's as difficult a

404
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,400
Speaker 1: place as there risk. You know, they they're really smart.

405
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,160
Speaker 1: They kept it small. I mean it's impossible to get

406
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Speaker 1: a ticket. The atmosphere is electric every night. Uh and uh,

407
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 1: you know we had a chance to win the game.

408
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Speaker 1: We didn't. We beat him when they came to our place.

409
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Speaker 1: But you know it's something that you remember because it's

410
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Speaker 1: it's a coaching thing. If you're going to be a

411
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Speaker 1: coach and you're gonna take a kid out of the

412
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Speaker 1: game and you're gonna jump his case on national television,

413
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Speaker 1: but you better be right. And now now do you now?

414
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Speaker 1: Now if you took if you hooked your son, if

415
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Speaker 1: Connor you hook your son and he comes out of

416
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Speaker 1: the game and he mutters something to you, even and

417
00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 1: even if he's right, how how would you react? What

418
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:29,600
Speaker 1: are the what are the differences? Doug? In those days,

419
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Speaker 1: you didn't say anything back. See, it's a different world.

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Speaker 1: I encourage dialogue, So so I might think that you

421
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Speaker 1: came down the floor and made a ridiculous decision. Rather

422
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Speaker 1: than jump you and say, Doug, what is wrong? What's going?

423
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Speaker 1: What is wrong with you? I might say, Okay, Doug,

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Speaker 1: what you see? Okay? This is what I was saying.

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Speaker 1: Hold on, hold on, We've I listened. I played for you. Okay,

426
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 1: granted you were and I've seen you coach enough. I

427
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:58,960
Speaker 1: don't think you would have said, but it would have

428
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,479
Speaker 1: been what the what funk are you? What are you?

429
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 1: What are you thinking, what do you do? You know,

430
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: I hit my first start for Notre Dame. We're playing Baltimore.

431
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: We're playing in Baltimore against Old Loyal of Maryland and uh,

432
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,480
Speaker 1: what was the guy's name? He went on to coach

433
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 1: at Michigan. He fell into the Michigan job, blon Ellerby

434
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: and Brian Ellerby was going to just press the whole game, right,

435
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:26,399
Speaker 1: which we're playing at the Baltimore Arena. Yes, there, yeah,

436
00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 1: so and and as as you know, but I don't

437
00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 1: know people listen to podcasts now like like I had

438
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 1: my flaws as a basketball player, but you were not

439
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 1: pressing me. That was just not happening, right, That was

440
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: That was as us. Yes, I mean that's the last. So.

441
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: So we're playing pretty well. It's kind of a scatter

442
00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: shot game, and early on in the second half, I'm

443
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 1: feeling good about myself because again, if I get it

444
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,400
Speaker 1: second passed against the press, it's it's over. And we're

445
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 1: coming down on a three on one. Pat Garretty's on

446
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: my left and Ryan Hoover's on my right, and I

447
00:22:55,680 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: had the ball in my left hand. I crossed over

448
00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: to my right hand and kind of throw a spinning

449
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:01,600
Speaker 1: behind the back pass, which is which is kind of

450
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:05,040
Speaker 1: like a signature one for me that I almost never airmail.

451
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: And I was behind pat because he has deceptive speed,

452
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 1: um at very very deceptive speed, and it hits the

453
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: It hits the priest who was not paying attention. He

454
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: was open, he was open, and he was shot. He

455
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: was shot ready as well, which is the most impressive part.

456
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 1: And I didn't even run up the court. I just

457
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,639
Speaker 1: I just I did the I did the ship. Here

458
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 1: it comes and I go over there, and you know,

459
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: McLeod and he didn't really yell, and he's just he's apoplectic.

460
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: He's beside himself. He can't. On the other hand, used

461
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,040
Speaker 1: it up. What in the fuck are you take that

462
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 1: ship back to California? Was? I believe? Uh? Was? What was? So?

463
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,320
Speaker 1: In other words, I understand that you encourage dialogue now,

464
00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:49,119
Speaker 1: but let's not kid ourselves. You're not saying connor, what

465
00:23:49,160 --> 00:23:53,560
Speaker 1: did you see? That depends on the situation. Okay, Now,

466
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: you and I have great memories. See the interesting thing

467
00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: about that game we had that game won. He started

468
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: to fall apart. Okay, and I am relying on our

469
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: point guard. Dude, just get us home. Okay, And I

470
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: was stunned that you actually threw that pass in that situation.

471
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 1: And I knew that I could challenge you in a

472
00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: way that was very direct because of the relationship that

473
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: we had, and I will, You're right, I will do

474
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: that at times, but it's it's got to be the

475
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: appropriate time. It can't be every time you turn the

476
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 1: ball over, every time you miss a shot, every time

477
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: you miss a guy who's open. You know, I'm going

478
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:39,639
Speaker 1: to question why didn't you drive it, Why didn't you

479
00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: shoot it, Why don't you pass it? What are you thinking?

480
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 1: It's it's got to be you trusting your own judgment

481
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,240
Speaker 1: and your own talent to go make plays. But in

482
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:55,120
Speaker 1: that situation, I was I was perplexed that you made

483
00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:58,800
Speaker 1: that play under those circumstances because it was so out

484
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: of character for you. Uh. And I think at the

485
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: end of the day, you were just trying to have

486
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: some fun, like coach, we got this, but it was

487
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: like we were up twenty one and all of a

488
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 1: sudden that we're up nine and we need to finish

489
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 1: this fast break to go back up eleven because we're

490
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 1: on the road. We just gotta get out of here

491
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,360
Speaker 1: with the w we can't lose to Loyola and you

492
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 1: you almost killed the priest? How how this is what?

493
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: What's always always I've always wondered? Um, I was terrible,

494
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: as you know, my first couple of weeks in practice.

495
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: You know, I was just beside myself. I didn't understand

496
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 1: why I was so bad. Um, how do you You

497
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: weren't terrible, You weren't as good as you should have been,

498
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: But you weren't terrible. Well, I just think I would

499
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:43,120
Speaker 1: just I just felt like you were beneath your own standards,

500
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 1: is what you were? Well? But but we were running.

501
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 1: We're running like a true motion offense. Most of our

502
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: most of our practice was in the half court, which

503
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: takes away like my powers. Right, we're not we're not

504
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: running organized break. There's not any screen. Roll was to

505
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 1: my right hand and said to my left hand, which

506
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,520
Speaker 1: is where I like to go? Like everything like I

507
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,680
Speaker 1: felt like I was. I was completely lost. Anyway, somehow

508
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 1: I managed to sneak into games early in the game.

509
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: And I'd like to think it wasn't just because I was.

510
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 1: I was promised, you know, I get an opportunity to start.

511
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: How do you use like, how do you know and

512
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 1: you've done this for a long time. Some guys just

513
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 1: are not going to look the same in the game

514
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 1: as in practice. How do you know? How do you

515
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: know who's going to be a game and who's gonna

516
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 1: be practice. Who's who just looks good in practice? What's

517
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: the what's the secret to that? Well, there's a couple

518
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: of things. Number One, I knew you pretty well. Okay.

519
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 1: I watched you in a you. I watched you for

520
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 1: your high school team. I watched you grow up. I

521
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 1: remember you were a little sophomore. Okay, so I kind

522
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: of knew your backbone, all right. So typically you have

523
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: an idea in your head, this guy is gonna be

524
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,239
Speaker 1: fine when the TV lights come on. You know, some

525
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: guys can play at three o'clock, and some guys can

526
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:59,399
Speaker 1: play at seven o'clock. And and some guys, you know,

527
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: they just TV lights come on and they're not the

528
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,200
Speaker 1: same person. You know, we've all seen them, we've all

529
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 1: coached them. Uh So the critical thing is to have

530
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: an idea number one and what you think is going

531
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: to happen. But then number two, be confident enough and

532
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 1: who you recruited to give them the opportunity to play

533
00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 1: when the TV lights come on, you know, don't have

534
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: him sit there the whole year and don't give him.

535
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,159
Speaker 1: You gotta give a chance, because they might surprise you,

536
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:31,160
Speaker 1: they might develop. You know, some guys take a little longer.

537
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: Like you said, Okay, I was a little uncomfortable in

538
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 1: the motion scheme. All right, Well that that's a fairly

539
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: legitimate you know, I would say, excuse, but we gotta

540
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,000
Speaker 1: give you time. You know. Troy Murphy had the same problem,

541
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: by the way, I remember him saying, like he was like,

542
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: what do I do now? What do I do now?

543
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: What do I do now? And and eventually like we

544
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 1: would say, well, well you could do this, but you

545
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:00,040
Speaker 1: could do that, you could do this and that. A

546
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,960
Speaker 1: lot of guys don't like that. It's tell me where

547
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: to go, tell me where to line up. So finally,

548
00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: Troy one day he had like this light bulb go

549
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: off moment. He turned to me and said, so basically,

550
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: what you mean is just go score? Like, yeah, just

551
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:18,760
Speaker 1: go score. Now, Maybe you screen and slip, maybe you

552
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:21,639
Speaker 1: get a screen, maybe a guy turns his head and

553
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: your basket cut, but I want you to score. We'll

554
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 1: get people to screen for you. Now. A lot of times,

555
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: the screener is the guy who's more open. I mean,

556
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,360
Speaker 1: no better example than the play we ran to win

557
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 1: the game against Northwestern, Bohndon said of screen popped out,

558
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: he's openings three. Okay, so you know, we try to

559
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: get Troy to understand. Okay, you have to do some

560
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: screening for yourself, but go get buckets. Where's the ball?

561
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: Where's my man? Are they in the gaps? Is the

562
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: X on D O, and and and and trust what

563
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: your two eyeballs are seeing, and and and you had

564
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: that ability. He had that ability. Sometimes it takes a

565
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: little longer, that's all. Um. Okay, THEO don't know. You

566
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: got into coaching at like right right out of school.

567
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: You transferred a pen, you were you were sitting out

568
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: during the final four. Did you get to travel to

569
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: Utah during the Final four? I did not with the

570
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: team I traveled with. Actually, my roommate at the time

571
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,960
Speaker 1: was Tommy Massimino, Roly Massimino's son, still great friends till

572
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: this day. And they what they did was they charted

573
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 1: a plane for the students. It was like three students,

574
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: and we got on that plane. And so we were

575
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: at the game at both games because in those days.

576
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 1: Even though we lost to Michigan State, they had a

577
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: consolation game, like De Paul, So I was out there

578
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: and I was at the hotel, but I wasn't technically

579
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: with the team and stuff like that, so it was

580
00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: a little bit different. But being associated with that team,

581
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: Doug was it was amazing for me because it was

582
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,440
Speaker 1: the epitome of what great culture is. We always talk

583
00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: about the culture in your program. Hmm. That team had

584
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: winning culture. They had senior leadership, they had hard workers

585
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: at unselfish players. We had a great coaching staff, Bob Winhauers,

586
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,560
Speaker 1: the head coach, Bob Stack. It was the assistant Dennis Jackson.

587
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: We had a great staff. And for me to be

588
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 1: associated with having transferred, you kind of go sign with

589
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: an ACC school. Things don't work out your transfer. You're

590
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 1: with a team that goes to the final four. Okay,

591
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: now I know how you have to act, how you

592
00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: have to prepare, how you have to compete to be

593
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: a winning team on a national level. It was very,

594
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: very beneficial to me clearly down the road, even as

595
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 1: as as a head coach. Um you get done at

596
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 1: Penn and was two like, you graduate from Penn, why

597
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: go into coaching. You know what happens, Doug is you're

598
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 1: involved with the game. I mean I have to you know,

599
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: I feel like you and I grew up similarly in

600
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 1: the sense that you know, your dad put a ball

601
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,239
Speaker 1: in your hand when you were a little baby, and

602
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: and you know, that's what we did for That's what

603
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 1: we did for fun. We like, we played, and we

604
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 1: went to games. On Friday, we with the high school games.

605
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: On Saturday, we with the college games. I mean, that's

606
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: what we did. So all of a sudden, you know,

607
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: your career comes to his preaching hall and I'm not

608
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: going to play in the NBA. All right, Well, you

609
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: gotta make a decision. You you want to go work

610
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 1: on Wall Street? I mean, you know, do you want

611
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: to go to graduate school? You want to go to

612
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: law school? And where do you where do you want

613
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: to go? In THROUGHR life, I wasn't ready to walk

614
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: away from the game. Now, sometimes you don't have an

615
00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 1: opportunity to stay in the game the way that you

616
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:44,480
Speaker 1: want to. But in those days in the IVY League,

617
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: they had a third spot that was essentially a volunteer spot.

618
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 1: So I got like a part time job on campus.

619
00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 1: We had a JV program. So I was the head

620
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: coach of the JV program, but they don't even have anymore,

621
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: which was great experience. I was the third assistant on

622
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 1: the varsity team and and Craig little Page was the

623
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 1: head coach, and Tommy Schneider UH and Dennis Shackson still

624
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:13,240
Speaker 1: no Dennis was gone, but anyway, Uh, I learned a

625
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: lot from Craig so I played for I learned some

626
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 1: stuff from my experiences at wake Down. I played for

627
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: coach Winhower, go to the the final four. We went to

628
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: tournament a bunch of times after that. Now I'm working

629
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: for Craig Little Page, and everybody's different, and I think

630
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: that's the value of you know, you think about it.

631
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: I'm still a relatively young guy. I'm a head coach

632
00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: on the JV so I can try my own stuff,

633
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: but I'm working with people that have great experience. Mean,

634
00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, you look at Bob Wineholler when he was

635
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: on the Chuck Daily Tree, you know, coach a dream

636
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: team one Hall of famer, and Craig little Page worked

637
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:51,920
Speaker 1: for Terry Holland and he played for Dick Harder, who

638
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: was a great coach in his own right at Penn

639
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: and Oregon and then the pros for all those years.

640
00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: So I'm being exposed to a lot of valuable ideas

641
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: and information well at the same time being able to

642
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 1: make some of my own decisions. So I was really

643
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 1: fortunate to have been exposed to all that at a

644
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: young age. And then you were I was like twenty

645
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: six years old. You'd be in my head, Coach Shelley Hi,

646
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: Was that right correct? You know? What happened was Tommy

647
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: Schneider was our top assistant. He gets the Lehigh job.

648
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: Stick one up with me, help me build this thing.

649
00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:25,520
Speaker 1: I said, would I'd be great. I'd love to And

650
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 1: I went up there because I was gonna earn my

651
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: master's degree. Uh. And it's funny because at the time

652
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: I made a very unique decision because my my coach,

653
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: Bob Winhower took the job at Arizona State and his

654
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: assistance were Doug Collins and Henry Bibby. Any Any called

655
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: and said, you know, once you come out here and

656
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: be r g A H And Tommy Snyder says, essentially

657
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 1: be be my g A. Uh. So I chose to

658
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: go to Lehi rather than Arizona State. Uh. And the

659
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: reason I did that was because I wanted to get

660
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 1: a valuable I felt like if I was a g

661
00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 1: A at Arizona State at that time, I really wasn't

662
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: going to be a student. It was more of a

663
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 1: It was more of a way to be a full

664
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: time coach, and that would have been great, except I

665
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: wanted to get a master's. I felt like, if I

666
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: make it, if I make a decision to make a

667
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: career change, I need to have an advanced degree. Even

668
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: though I had an undergraduate degree from the Wharton School,

669
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: I wanted an advanced degree, and I wanted to have

670
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: some flexibility because maybe I want to stay in athletics,

671
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: go into administration perhaps. So I earned a master's degree

672
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: in education focusing on higher end, which was really valuable

673
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: for me having remained in higher education all these years.

674
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: And then what happened was we were there for two

675
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:52,399
Speaker 1: years and Tommy got Craig little Page got the unker's job,

676
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: Tommy got the pen job, and they promoted me at

677
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: at age six. So I was a head coach at

678
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: and always thankful for that opportunity from Leon University. All right,

679
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,840
Speaker 1: you get the job at twenty six years old, what

680
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 1: do you do your first head coaching job. You've been

681
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, you've been around sports, and you know it's

682
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 1: not it's like like an hour or a little more

683
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: than an hour outside of Philly, so you have that,

684
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: but it's and it's also you know back then there

685
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 1: were the engineers before the Mountain Hawks, right, But it's

686
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: a school of a really good academic repute, which you've

687
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,080
Speaker 1: been at Wake, you've been at Penn, so you knew

688
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 1: the gyms you're supposed to be and do. But to

689
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 1: be a head coach that young, what was it like?

690
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: What what what do you remember about your first experiences? It

691
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:39,000
Speaker 1: was it was challenging, and it was it was exciting,

692
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: but it was also probably a little nerve wracking. You know,

693
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know you're an assistant. You're

694
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,320
Speaker 1: an assistant, and all of a sudden, what's the big difference?

695
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 1: We all know you go from making suggestions to making

696
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: decisions time out, those players are looking at you. Here

697
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: you come down to recruiting these three guys for one spot.

698
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 1: Who you want, Okay, let's get let's get that. Let's

699
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 1: make this the right call, Let's get the right guy.

700
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 1: And and so you're also the face of the program.

701
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 1: So you're speaking to alumni groups and you're handling the media,

702
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 1: and I remember, it's funny to ask that question because ironically,

703
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,320
Speaker 1: we were in a Man of Hawk class at the

704
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: University of Liowa my first year at Lehigh. So I

705
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 1: get the job. We're scheduled to play at the University

706
00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: of Iowa in about six weeks. So I get a

707
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: call from Gary Strom, who is the director of ops

708
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 1: at the time. He says, hey, you know, what's your topic?

709
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 1: I'm a topic for what. He goes, well, we have

710
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,320
Speaker 1: a coaching clinic. When you come out here playing the tournament,

711
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,440
Speaker 1: you're gonna speak at our coaching clinic. There's gonna be

712
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:51,720
Speaker 1: coaches there. I've never spoken to a coaching clinic before,

713
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:54,719
Speaker 1: so I said, I got to get back you back

714
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 1: to you on that. I got to think about what

715
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 1: I want to talk about. So I called it back

716
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 1: and you know, I walked in and said, Alvis, I'm

717
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,399
Speaker 1: in an overhead projectors speaking high school coaches. A lot

718
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,400
Speaker 1: of them are in their fifties and sixties up twenty

719
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 1: six years old. But I remember I coached against UH,

720
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: George Raveling and UH and UH. I remember when I

721
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: also coached against I'm trying to remember who was. I

722
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 1: think it might have been Rick magiras he was at

723
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 1: Ball State at the time. Yeah, I think yeah. So,

724
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it just Doug, it goes fast

725
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: all of a sudden you and you think it looks

726
00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: it thinks seems like it was yesterday. It was Franny

727
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,959
Speaker 1: McCaffrey joined me here on the on the All Ball podcast. Um,

728
00:37:36,040 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: then you made a decision, which we I've seen a

729
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,839
Speaker 1: couple of people do since, right. I mean, I'm thinking

730
00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: of of what what what Chris did before he when

731
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: he left Gardener Webb, he went up to Butler to

732
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: to become an assistant coach because you felt like you

733
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:54,440
Speaker 1: like you had to have what high major experience to

734
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: get a high major job, Like why leave the Lee

735
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 1: High job to go work for Digger Notre Dame. Well,

736
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: we go to the tournament and and had a great team.

737
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: And I interviewed for two positions that year. One was

738
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 1: the University of Massachusetts when John Calipari was hired. The

739
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 1: other was s MU when John Schuemate was hired. And

740
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: what I tried to do was, you know, since I

741
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 1: didn't get either position, is too gain some feedback on, Okay,

742
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: why not me? Why some Why why did you hire

743
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,800
Speaker 1: somebody else? I had great respect for I knew Calipari

744
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 1: really well. We were good friends from our days at

745
00:38:36,880 --> 00:38:39,880
Speaker 1: at five Stars. So it's like, all right, we didn't

746
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 1: take you. So these are the reasons why I said,

747
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: I want you to tell me the truth. All right, Well,

748
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 1: we didn't feel like you could recruit on a national level.

749
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: You've You've gone a good job recruiting. You had a

750
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 1: really good team. You you coached them up. You know,

751
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 1: we played the number one team and annc Up a

752
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: tournament that you're right down. But it looks like you

753
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: from a technical standpoint, not what you're doing. But you

754
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 1: didn't ever recruit anybody basically outside of Pennsylvania, New Jersey.

755
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 1: Which was true. It was it was valid. So you

756
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 1: can get angry and now use people don't know what

757
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,480
Speaker 1: you're doing, or you can say you know what, all right,

758
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:25,319
Speaker 1: I somehow have to complete the picture here. I have

759
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,839
Speaker 1: to expand and and maybe leave the comfort zone up

760
00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: being a head coach. And I just bought a home

761
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: and now I've got to sell it all that kind

762
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: of stuff. It was the easy thing would have been

763
00:39:37,400 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: to stay, but Shoemate got to as some huge job.

764
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:44,640
Speaker 1: He was assisted at Notre Dame. So I called Digger.

765
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,399
Speaker 1: I said, coach, I'd like to come work for you.

766
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:51,520
Speaker 1: And he was surprised, you know, like the head coach

767
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: would want to do that. And he was very candid.

768
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: He just said, hey, I got two people in mind,

769
00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 1: I'm gonna offer it to them. I might call you,

770
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: but I might not just take you had just taken

771
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:02,680
Speaker 1: Lee High to the n c A tournament at like

772
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,879
Speaker 1: eight years old, and he wasn't he didn't. He weren't

773
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: his first choice. It was not his first choice. Uh.

774
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: And he told me who he told me. He says,

775
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 1: I went off for the job to uh Don Casey

776
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,759
Speaker 1: and Craig little Page, who you know. Casey had been

777
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: to coach at Temple and was coach at the Clippers.

778
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:25,520
Speaker 1: And Craig a little Page, you know it was a

779
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: coach at Rutgers, coach at ten, assistant at Virginia. I

780
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,680
Speaker 1: mean I knew both of them. Craig gave me my

781
00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 1: first job. So I was like, you know a lot

782
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: of coach you know, if you get Craig little Page,

783
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 1: was Don Casey, I mean you did not a whole

784
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: month you did a grand Slam, So I give it

785
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,919
Speaker 1: and he called me about six weeks later. I said,

786
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: you know, he turned it down. They didn't want to

787
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 1: do it. Come on out for an interview, and and

788
00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 1: when I went out there, I figured out that Digger

789
00:40:53,680 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: doesn't he really doesn't do interviews. It's kind of like

790
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,320
Speaker 1: already decided who I wanted, Like he wanted those two guys.

791
00:40:58,320 --> 00:40:59,600
Speaker 1: They said no, and then he was like, okay, I'm

792
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 1: going to my neck sky he said, yeah, yeah, you know,

793
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: we we we had lunch, we talked a little bit,

794
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,400
Speaker 1: but it wasn't like here, here's you know, let's X

795
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: and O, let's talk this thing. It was like, no,

796
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: this is a guy I want, and I wanted to

797
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 1: make sure I got along with the other assistance, Mattico

798
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: Collin I had known for years. Jeff Nix and I

799
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 1: are your best friends still this day and very thankful

800
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 1: for for the opportunity to coach and notre dame that

801
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: the Digger gave me. Um what was Digger really like?

802
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: I mean, like, I do think that there is a

803
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: generation of people who don't understand. All they know is

804
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,200
Speaker 1: that they beat U C L A. And they know

805
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 1: a little bit about the highlighters and that he was

806
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,160
Speaker 1: on ESPN for a long time. But they don't know

807
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 1: it was a remarkable run of success there. Granted it

808
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: was a different era when there was only you know,

809
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: one game of week on TV, and Notre Dame was

810
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: usually one of those teams. But as far as as

811
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:53,719
Speaker 1: a coach, as a guy to work for, what was

812
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,799
Speaker 1: he like? Well, he was challenging to work for because

813
00:41:56,800 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: he was incredibly demanding, but he would do anything for

814
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: you as an amazing heart. Uh. Never more evident than

815
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: when my son Patrick got cancer five years ago. I mean,

816
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 1: the way he reached out to me and the things

817
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: that he did, uh, you know, speak to exactly who

818
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: he is as a person. But you're right, in those

819
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 1: days he was more of a national celebrity, and there

820
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 1: were days when I would say to myself, golly, it's

821
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,000
Speaker 1: tough to be him today. Everybody was pulling at him.

822
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: You know, he had so many things going, whether it

823
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 1: be with TV. I mean he was friends with with

824
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,879
Speaker 1: George Bush. I mean, you know, you you'd be sitting

825
00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,280
Speaker 1: in your office watching film when you hear the Secretary

826
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: so I got the White House on the phone. Coach,

827
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: you know, you're like, oh, wow, okay, the White House

828
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: is reaching out to My boss was in the next office.

829
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: You know. We we remember we went to see uh

830
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,840
Speaker 1: President Bush speak on campus and it's you know, the

831
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: speech ended in a secret service everywhere. Come on, let's go,

832
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: we win this room. It's it's the three assistant coaches, Digger,

833
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 1: the president, and the vice president and the President of

834
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: the United States. I mean, that's the kind of guy

835
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 1: he was. But he you know, he was tough on you,

836
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 1: but he'd look out for you and we try to

837
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: take care of you, and he would help you. He

838
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: helped a number of coaches in their in their coaching

839
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:27,680
Speaker 1: career advanced. But the technical side, I mean he was

840
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 1: really good, Like he could break a film down extremely well.

841
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,719
Speaker 1: And I remember a lot of film sessions with him

842
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: when we're challenging because he's challenging you while you're watching it,

843
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: you know, like if it was your scout boy, you

844
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: better be on your toes. Yeah. They the Indiana game, right,

845
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 1: they only ran on pounds getting ready for that game.

846
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 1: Thirteen pounds. Yeah. I never watched so much Table on

847
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: one team. I think I watched thirty seven tapes. Uh,

848
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: and he would say, Okay, what do they what did

849
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: they do three years ago when we were down there,

850
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:13,000
Speaker 1: So you had better watch that game from three years ago. Uh,

851
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: you know. And the crazy thing that Indiana is they

852
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,920
Speaker 1: didn't they didn't actually do anything right they I mean,

853
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: there's no like. It wasn't called plays. They were basically

854
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 1: in a couple different kinds of motion. They just had

855
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 1: a motion to play man to man and occasionally he

856
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: would call triangle and they would go two out, three in.

857
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: That was it. But they would carve you up, you

858
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 1: know with flair screens and and and uh. And that

859
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: was always an interesting game. My you know, was my

860
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: my first scout, literally my first scout, and we win

861
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: the game. Joe Frederick had a huge shot at the

862
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:45,840
Speaker 1: end of the game that to win it force and

863
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: ironically now his nephew C. J. Frederick placed for US

864
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:54,840
Speaker 1: here here in Iowa. Wow. Um okay. So then obviously

865
00:44:54,880 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 1: then John McLoud comes in and you're one of the people.

866
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:00,160
Speaker 1: My brother had this one. He was he went work

867
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 1: for Ben Braun. Ben Braun gets fired seven months in

868
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: and he ends up being the only guy uh that

869
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: that that that Mike Montgomery ended up keeping. Why did

870
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: you stay. When John McLeod came, was that coach? Well,

871
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 1: I wanted to stay number one. I wanted the opportunity

872
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: to work for coach McLeod. His reputation was impeccable, but

873
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 1: I didn't know him, and so Mattie Coo Colin got

874
00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: to Jacksonville head coaching jobs. So Jeff Nix and I

875
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,600
Speaker 1: were the only two that were left, and we both

876
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 1: wanted to stay with coach, so we didn't know if

877
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: he he would do that. He offered the positions to

878
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: Jeff Van Gundy and uh uh the other assistant at

879
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 1: the time. Uh former NBA player who was a Garfield

880
00:45:51,239 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: heard we'll go and played for him. I'm trying to

881
00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: remember who who was whoever was on his staff with

882
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: the Knicks. Okay, I don't think it was Garfield. Hurt Anyway,

883
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,480
Speaker 1: he offered the job to damn. Those guys stayed in

884
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,960
Speaker 1: the pros and had very successful careers in pros, both

885
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: of them, and they were players, you know. The one

886
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: was a player, the other one was jeffing and god

887
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 1: who had been in a while. So it was interesting

888
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:20,439
Speaker 1: because he just allowed us for three weeks. He came

889
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: to work, We came to work, and Uh, I was

890
00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: going to say, coach, you know, we gotta we've got

891
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,040
Speaker 1: a recruiting class. You go, we gotta stay in touch

892
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 1: with those guys. Maybe we gotta go see him. These

893
00:46:31,040 --> 00:46:33,440
Speaker 1: are our top recruits. Let's get on the phone with him.

894
00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: Ah And and one night he says, hey, let's uh,

895
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: let's go watch the NBA playoffs. So we met and

896
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: we talked recruiting, and so he was what he was

897
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 1: doing was he was trying to get to know us,

898
00:46:49,360 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: and he was watching us work, and I would show

899
00:46:53,120 --> 00:46:54,920
Speaker 1: him tape on this is a guy who really like

900
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:57,479
Speaker 1: I think we should get him. But if we're gonna

901
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 1: do what, we gotta get you on the phone with

902
00:46:58,960 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: sim and his dad, his coach, Yeah you coach, etcetera.

903
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 1: And so I was just trying to point him in

904
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: the right direction so that we were kind of hit

905
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 1: the ground running, as they say. And after about three weeks,

906
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: he brought both of us in and said, look, I've

907
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 1: been watching you guys, like how you work, like for

908
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,359
Speaker 1: you to stay and work for him as a coach,

909
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:20,960
Speaker 1: We want to work for you. And uh, you know,

910
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,800
Speaker 1: I just loved the guy and and really enjoyed the

911
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: opportunity and learned a tremendous amount from him. Um, then

912
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: you get the job, like right as as he got

913
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,560
Speaker 1: fired at Notre Dame, you get the job at Greensboro.

914
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: What was what was that like to you? You know,

915
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:39,440
Speaker 1: you're on the rise, You're at Lehigh, you go to

916
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 1: Notre Dame with the thoughts of all right, in order

917
00:47:41,040 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: to break through the high major level, I need some

918
00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: time here, and then you're now you're back in kind

919
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:49,360
Speaker 1: of at Greensboro. What was that experience like? Well, it

920
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,640
Speaker 1: was it was exhilarating because I was back to being

921
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 1: a head coach. I had a great boss in Nelson

922
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:57,960
Speaker 1: Bob in an up and coming program, and it was

923
00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 1: a different part of the country. Margaret and I moved

924
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: Connor was a baby. We moved, you know, down south

925
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: and and really enjoyed my six years there. You're back

926
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,520
Speaker 1: to calling the shots, okay, And I think what what

927
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: I was was thankful for the opportunity rather than boy

928
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:17,919
Speaker 1: I could have been to coach at such and such.

929
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: I mean, think about how many coaches you know, all

930
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,200
Speaker 1: of whom can say that, you know, I thought I'd

931
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 1: be at this level at this time that there's no

932
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 1: blueprint for that. You just gotta keep grinding and and

933
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,400
Speaker 1: you know, I was just thankful for for that chance,

934
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 1: and and I was prepared to be there for the

935
00:48:35,239 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: rest of my career if that's the way it was

936
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 1: going to be. And luckily I had a chance six

937
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:43,799
Speaker 1: years later to go to Sienna, and uh, that was

938
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: a great opportunity as well, and very thankful for John

939
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,399
Speaker 1: D Jenna Argennio to give me a shot. You guys

940
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: had it rolling at Sienna, I mean really rolling, Sweet

941
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: sixteen rolling, and it's a it's a it's kind of

942
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: a special place there. I mean that the capital district um,

943
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:00,800
Speaker 1: not just the rivalry with Albany, but the idea that

944
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 1: that you know, important people really pay attention. And you know,

945
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: I've I've heard stories of you know, some of the

946
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 1: there's a group of guys that they come to every

947
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 1: practice and they kind of report back to the rest

948
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 1: of the boosters. Um. Sienna obviously hasn't been the same

949
00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: since you left, but they've had some they've had some

950
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,319
Speaker 1: incredible rises and obviously some falls. Well, that job felt

951
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:22,480
Speaker 1: like it prepared you for Iowa. I don't know, to me,

952
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: like just because of the importance of that job in

953
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: that area, whereas you know, University of Iowa, that's the

954
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 1: biggest job in that state, no matter how good Iowa

955
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 1: Staters and Northern was for a while. Um, what's what's

956
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: unique about the Siena job that's alloted to one be

957
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: successful but also to one that's really challenging. I think

958
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: that's a great point, Doug. And it is all of

959
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: what you said for this reason, it has its own

960
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 1: identity in the Capital District. The Capital District is equidistant

961
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,919
Speaker 1: from Boston and New York, but far enough away from

962
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:57,399
Speaker 1: both to have its our identity. We have our own

963
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 1: had our own TV stations, our own arena. So the

964
00:50:01,239 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 1: people that lived there had been seeing a basketball fan

965
00:50:04,040 --> 00:50:08,120
Speaker 1: since the fifties. You had the all many Patroons, all right.

966
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:10,399
Speaker 1: So that was the old c b A with Bhil

967
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:14,840
Speaker 1: Jackson coach there, George Carl coach there. So this is

968
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:18,759
Speaker 1: a basketball community. High school basketball was really good there.

969
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: Uh and and so what happens you had all the

970
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: TV stations and all the all the print media cover

971
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: your team, you know, like you're like you're the New

972
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: England Patriots. So that's what you're talking about in terms

973
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 1: of the preparation for being a BCS coach. I don't

974
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 1: know that there's a better, yeah place to start, because

975
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 1: you get a chance to coach in a big time

976
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 1: arena with everybody scrutinizing everything that you're doing. And it

977
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 1: was the early stages of the internet, message boards and

978
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 1: all that kind of stuff. So it was really a

979
00:50:58,040 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: fun place to be. Uh an incredibly fun place to

980
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,680
Speaker 1: be because of the interest. And you're right, we would

981
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:09,320
Speaker 1: have anywhere from five to thirty guys come to practice

982
00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 1: every day, a lot of retired guys that were Sienna

983
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: loves or didn't go to Sienna, but we're seeing a

984
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,799
Speaker 1: basketball fans from when they were kids growing up in

985
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: the Capital District. And and so when you get to

986
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,440
Speaker 1: this level and now you have that same type of scrutiny,

987
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:28,600
Speaker 1: you've already been through it. You know, it's it's no

988
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 1: big deal. You know, you don't take anything personal. You

989
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 1: just keep grinding, you know, you kind of keep what

990
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: needs to stay in house and house and get your

991
00:51:37,480 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: guys focused and and take care of your players and

992
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: make sure that they're doing what they need to be doing.

993
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: And you build it. And and to be honest with you,

994
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: it's one of those places that you really once you're there,

995
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: you could stay there because it's a great place to live.

996
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: There's great people, they're fair with you, they support you,

997
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: and and I signed an eight year deal right before

998
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: I left. It really felt like, Okay, I want to

999
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:04,000
Speaker 1: I want to end up with my children growing up

1000
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: in this town, and this is where we're gonna be.

1001
00:52:06,640 --> 00:52:09,200
Speaker 1: It would only be something very special, like a BCS

1002
00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,240
Speaker 1: opportunity out of place like Iowa that would laurn me away.

1003
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: And thankfully Gary Barter gave me that opportunity. Um, really quickly, Um,

1004
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: what is that process like? Because you did sign an

1005
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 1: eight year deal, and this is something fans, fans are

1006
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 1: very flipping about. Well, you know coaches can leave, then

1007
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 1: then players should be able to leave. And they think

1008
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 1: of coaches is just chasing paychecks and not having relations

1009
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 1: not caring about the relationships they leave behind. About that,

1010
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,279
Speaker 1: about the decision, you know, it's a major decision, and

1011
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 1: about how you handled it to try and leave on

1012
00:52:43,000 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: good terms. Well, first of all, it's really hard. Uh. Well,

1013
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 1: what made it manageable for me was we accomplished a

1014
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 1: lot at the time that I was there, and the

1015
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:57,640
Speaker 1: program was in great shape when I left. I had

1016
00:52:57,920 --> 00:53:01,399
Speaker 1: unbelievable relationship with Farler Mullen was president. A matter of fact,

1017
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: he texted me after the Northwestern game he watched the

1018
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: whole game. Uh And I remember I put my wife

1019
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:10,719
Speaker 1: on the phone to say goodbye to Father Mullen and

1020
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:13,799
Speaker 1: she burst into tears. That's how much you know. We

1021
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:17,799
Speaker 1: both loved him, And and so it is hard to leave.

1022
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: I would have had a real hard time leaving two

1023
00:53:20,680 --> 00:53:23,680
Speaker 1: or three years earlier. I couldn't have done it. And

1024
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 1: sometimes you have to leave when the when the opportunity

1025
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: presents itself. And I get the whole the way the

1026
00:53:29,040 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: fans look at it, but there's a there's a couple

1027
00:53:31,719 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: of things too, you know. Sometimes it doesn't go like that,

1028
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: and they're getting ridiot quickly, you know. So at the

1029
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's about relationships, but it's also

1030
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,120
Speaker 1: a business, and you have a family, and you have

1031
00:53:49,160 --> 00:53:55,239
Speaker 1: an opportunity professionally. Uh and and I can't imagine leaving

1032
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: on better terms than I did. I mean till this day,

1033
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 1: John and I are really closed. Father Mullen and I

1034
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: are closed. All my scenic guys. That was on the

1035
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 1: phone yesterday, Kenny Hasbrook one of my favorite players I've

1036
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 1: ever coached. He was a player of the Year at

1037
00:54:08,320 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: the three out of the Corner when he beat Ohio State.

1038
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: His dad passed away yesterday, so I'm on the phone

1039
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: with him, Uh, tell him how much I love him

1040
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,600
Speaker 1: and and I hope he's doing okay. And I thought

1041
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 1: to him about his mom and his sister. So those

1042
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:27,440
Speaker 1: relationships don't end. H But sometimes you know, you have

1043
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: an opportunity, and then there's financial implications. A lot of

1044
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:32,239
Speaker 1: people think you just pick up and leave. No, there's

1045
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:37,680
Speaker 1: there's buyouts, and those buyouts are often substantial. And said, well,

1046
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: the school pays it. Well, it's all coming out of

1047
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: the same pots. The school pays it. That's fine, but

1048
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:45,000
Speaker 1: a's less fine it you're getting, so essentially you're paying

1049
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 1: it um. And the way it was written to my contract,

1050
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: you know, somehow, some way that that was going to

1051
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: be compensated, so the school was covered from a financial perspective. Uh,

1052
00:54:57,600 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, you know it's interesting, but because they were

1053
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:04,600
Speaker 1: remember in the eighties, Ah, the idea was floated about

1054
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:08,200
Speaker 1: tenure for college basketball coaches. You know, you're an employee

1055
00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,840
Speaker 1: of the university, just like a professor is maybe that

1056
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 1: will curb cheating, maybe you guys will be more on

1057
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: the up and up. Ah, and faculty went crazy, like,

1058
00:55:17,640 --> 00:55:20,200
Speaker 1: you're not faculty, you're your coaches, so you're gonna be

1059
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,880
Speaker 1: treated differently. And and that's fine. I get that we

1060
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: are different than the faculty. But you know, we live

1061
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 1: in a fickle world. And you could be riding high

1062
00:55:30,239 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 1: one day and not the other and next thing you know,

1063
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: you know, you've got three or four or five kids,

1064
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: you've got to up and move and your mortgage, I mean,

1065
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,920
Speaker 1: nothing that anybody else doesn't deal with, and whatever profession

1066
00:55:40,960 --> 00:55:45,600
Speaker 1: you're in, and and you hope that any time you're

1067
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 1: in any position, it goes the way to do. When

1068
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: I was at Sienna with unbelievable people, relationships that were maintained.

1069
00:55:52,920 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: All of our guys graduated, we won championships. Okay, an

1070
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 1: opportunity presented itself from me and my family and everybody

1071
00:55:58,840 --> 00:56:03,640
Speaker 1: was thrilled for me. Um, last last thing here, Um,

1072
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 1: what does it mean to you? I think you know

1073
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 1: one of the reasons that you had to go to

1074
00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: Notre Dame was you didn't have a godfather, right, you didn't.

1075
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,520
Speaker 1: When you're at Penn and you're at Lehigh. You didn't

1076
00:56:13,560 --> 00:56:15,759
Speaker 1: have a godfather who could pick up the phone and

1077
00:56:15,800 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: make a call for you to get you that bigger job.

1078
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,000
Speaker 1: And you've been able to do this not solely on

1079
00:56:21,040 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 1: your own. A lot of it is relationships, uh that

1080
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:25,320
Speaker 1: that you have so many of on the East Coast.

1081
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: But like, look, you know you had to you had

1082
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: to go take the Greensboro job and win to get

1083
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:31,359
Speaker 1: the Siena job, and win to get the Iowa job.

1084
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: What's it mean to be coaching in a place like

1085
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: Iowa in a league like the Big Ten, which is

1086
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: an unbelievably accomplished coaches league. Right to stand there in

1087
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: sidelines and you guys have been good and after a

1088
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: down year, now you're really really good. Do you do

1089
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: you ever have time to take a deep breath in

1090
00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:53,400
Speaker 1: and look around and have that perspective. That's a great question.

1091
00:56:53,560 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: And and when people say that's a great question, oftentimes

1092
00:56:56,920 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 1: it means they don't really have a great answer. You know,

1093
00:57:00,719 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: I I don't. I probably don't do that, you know,

1094
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:08,799
Speaker 1: you you're kind of living in the moment, I know,

1095
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:11,839
Speaker 1: But like I mean, I'll just share my for Like, look,

1096
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 1: I have I have you know, I'm I'm I have

1097
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: the same problem that I think a lot of coaches have,

1098
00:57:16,160 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 1: where you know, I just I constantly want more, and

1099
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,280
Speaker 1: it is like my third network, and and some people

1100
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:23,160
Speaker 1: don't know how to take that you want more, right,

1101
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: But I'm like you am a competitive guy, and every

1102
00:57:26,320 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 1: once in a while, I do have the moment where

1103
00:57:27,560 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 1: I realized, like, hey, I didn't play a duke, I

1104
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 1: didn't play at Syracuse, I didn't complain a Final four,

1105
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 1: and yet I've been able to carve out a very

1106
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: good career for myself and provide for my family. Right

1107
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 1: Whereas you know, you didn't play a duke, you didn't

1108
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: play a Carolina. You know you didn't play Kentucky, you

1109
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 1: didn't work for Dean Smith, you didn't work for Mike Sachowski,

1110
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: and yet you've been able to carve out an incredible

1111
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: career for yourself. And I just wonder if if you

1112
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,800
Speaker 1: ever had that moment you look around and you go like, damn, Like,

1113
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 1: even if I don't ever reach a final four national championship,

1114
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,280
Speaker 1: I have made it in whatever the over under is.

1115
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:02,200
Speaker 1: You've hit there in terms of success. But I think

1116
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,520
Speaker 1: that's that's a that's a great way to put it.

1117
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:11,400
Speaker 1: I recognize every day how important Hawkeye athletics is to

1118
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: the people in this state, into our alums and our

1119
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:19,560
Speaker 1: fan base. So I don't ever underestimate what it means

1120
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 1: to be sitting in the chair that I'm sitting in

1121
00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:25,920
Speaker 1: right now, and and and the one thing I've always

1122
00:58:25,960 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 1: done is never looked at the next opportunity. I only

1123
00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: try to do the job that's here. If an opportunity

1124
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: presents itself after the season, and maybe you can take

1125
00:58:37,120 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: a look at it. I don't have any intention of

1126
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: doing that here, but you know, I recognize that this

1127
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: is important what we're doing. It means it's important to

1128
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people. But at the end of the

1129
00:58:53,840 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 1: day as well, I'm coaching another man and another woman's child.

1130
00:58:59,360 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: That's the most important thing. How do I treat that person?

1131
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,240
Speaker 1: You know, if I have a guy who's struggling in

1132
00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 1: the classroom, if he's struggling with depression, if he's not

1133
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: playing well, I need to get him playing well. Uh,

1134
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: if he expected more, he's not playing as much. When

1135
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 1: we get the most out of him playing what he's

1136
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: playing and get total buying, like we talked about at

1137
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 1: the start of the show. So you know, I I

1138
00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: am excited and I am thrilled. I don't know that

1139
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: I do enough of what you said to say, Hey,

1140
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: you know this is really good because I'm grinding, but

1141
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:39,280
Speaker 1: I am appreciative and thankful and recognize that. You know,

1142
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: when I walk out on the court and there's fifteen

1143
00:59:41,840 --> 00:59:45,000
Speaker 1: thousand people there and there's a national television audience, that

1144
00:59:45,080 --> 00:59:47,960
Speaker 1: that's pretty cool. And I take a recruit onto the

1145
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: field of Kinnick Stadium and here's seventy people. You know,

1146
00:59:51,200 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: I brought Luca Garza and he were fifteen thousand on

1147
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 1: Friday night for one of our games, forty two for

1148
00:59:56,120 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: the wrestling match on Saturday outside, and then seventy thousand

1149
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 1: that night for football. That's pretty cool. And uh and

1150
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: then he had a kid from Washington, d C. To say, Yeah,

1151
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: I'll come up and play and play for you, Lord,

1152
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: Tyler Cook. I mean, you always appreciate that. Uh. So

1153
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 1: it's it's it's exciting, it's exhilarating, but it's also challenging

1154
01:00:20,360 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: and like I said, nerve wracking sometimes and you just

1155
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:24,919
Speaker 1: keep grinding. And right now we're just trying to figure

1156
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:28,680
Speaker 1: out how to beat Rutgers. Awesome. I appreciate your friendship.

1157
01:00:29,200 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: It's been a long time. Always great talking with you

1158
01:00:33,160 --> 01:00:35,200
Speaker 1: and look forward to seeing you sometime soon, you know,

1159
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:38,600
Speaker 1: hopefully before the final forward. It's not definitely been a man.

1160
01:00:38,640 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: I love him. Man, thanks so much. Let me do better,

1161
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 1: take care, let me get a couple of other things here. Um,

1162
01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 1: there's just so much talk about the Lakers and the

1163
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 1: proposed trade and what happens to the Lakers. Look by

1164
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,320
Speaker 1: people inside the Lakers have said, we weren't offering up

1165
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 1: all of our prospects and draft picks and cap cap Brown.

1166
01:00:55,040 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: If that was offered, then Dell Demps is a complete

1167
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 1: idiot for not taking it. Now, Dell Demps might be

1168
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: an idiot for not taking whatever was offered, and del

1169
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 1: Demps had the Lakers in some level as the only

1170
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:10,840
Speaker 1: ones kind of negotiate against themselves. But there's a lot

1171
01:01:10,840 --> 01:01:13,959
Speaker 1: of risks there if you're if you're Demps, a lot

1172
01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: a lot of risks there if you're Demps in that

1173
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: the offer may not come out as strong. I mean,

1174
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: think about the things that have to go his way.

1175
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 1: It's one of the I was I was doing the

1176
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:30,560
Speaker 1: U c L A Utah game, and you talk. Came

1177
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 1: from seventeen down with six minutes to go and won

1178
01:01:32,560 --> 01:01:36,880
Speaker 1: the game. And Utah was down three with eight seconds

1179
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:38,440
Speaker 1: to go. U c l A fouled them with six

1180
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: point nine seconds to go, and I said at the

1181
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: time on the broadcast, I said, hey, look, um, I

1182
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:50,440
Speaker 1: thought they fouled too early. But they foul and Utah

1183
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: makes both free throws. Then Utah fouls usually makes one

1184
01:01:54,480 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: out of two, and Van Dyke makes a three at

1185
01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 1: the buzzer, and Utah pulls off the upset, and there

1186
01:02:02,760 --> 01:02:07,800
Speaker 1: are people, there are people. U Ken Palmeroy was just like, hey,

1187
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:10,120
Speaker 1: to all you people who think you always follow up three,

1188
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: here's what happened. Here's what can happen when you follow

1189
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: up three. And my point has always been, yes, it

1190
01:02:15,360 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: can happen. There's a percentage chance it happens. But in

1191
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:19,960
Speaker 1: order to lose, when you're up three and you foul

1192
01:02:20,120 --> 01:02:23,439
Speaker 1: under seven seconds to go, you try to make both

1193
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,960
Speaker 1: those free throws. That's not a shot. U c l

1194
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 1: A had to miss a free throw. Uh, in this case,

1195
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 1: they missed one out of two free throws, and then

1196
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: Utah has to make the shot. In order to beat

1197
01:02:34,160 --> 01:02:36,880
Speaker 1: you there's all there's these different like that's like four

1198
01:02:37,000 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 1: things that have to happen. And sometimes you missed though

1199
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 1: you're trying, you're thinking about the second free throw, you

1200
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: missed the first free throw, or you miss a free

1201
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,960
Speaker 1: throw and the wrong team gets the basketball. The point

1202
01:02:48,040 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: is that a bunch of things have to go in

1203
01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: your favor if your utah to win the game when

1204
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: the team fouls, whereas if you're down three, all you

1205
01:02:55,080 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: have to do is make a shot and now you're

1206
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 1: a tie game, you get overtime. Well, the same you

1207
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:01,600
Speaker 1: could be said for the for the Pelicans. In order

1208
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:04,040
Speaker 1: for the Celtics to engage in a trade, they have

1209
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,200
Speaker 1: to secure Kyrie Irving with a long term deal. We

1210
01:03:07,240 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 1: don't know if that happens, and then they have to

1211
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:13,520
Speaker 1: just get get the Celtics to decide they want to

1212
01:03:13,560 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: trade Jayson Tatum. We don't know what that looks like

1213
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 1: at the end of the season. And even if that happens,

1214
01:03:18,080 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 1: they got Anthony Davis has to want to go there,

1215
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,480
Speaker 1: be willing to show up and we're willing to go like, hey,

1216
01:03:22,520 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: I'll be have an open mind to resigning. We don't

1217
01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:27,080
Speaker 1: know if that happens, and then you get the Knicks

1218
01:03:27,120 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: a lot of things. They have to get Kevin Durant

1219
01:03:29,640 --> 01:03:32,439
Speaker 1: or get Kemba Walker and make you make Anthony Davis

1220
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:35,280
Speaker 1: believe otherwise he doesn't want to go there. And what

1221
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,160
Speaker 1: do they have to send back in return? So I

1222
01:03:39,240 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 1: think that in an effort to show an effort of

1223
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 1: being petty, I think the Pelicans come out looking bad.

1224
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 1: Um that said, boy, Lagers need to start playing better.

1225
01:03:51,480 --> 01:03:54,200
Speaker 1: You'll know early on. They have a stretch there where

1226
01:03:54,200 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: they play the Pelicans twice and the Grizzlies once. They

1227
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: need to win all three of those games, need to

1228
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,520
Speaker 1: beat the Suns, simply beat the all the teams they

1229
01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:03,280
Speaker 1: need to beat and split with the playoff teams, and

1230
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: I think they'll be okay. The question is can they

1231
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:07,320
Speaker 1: get to the seventh seed to avoid the Warriors in

1232
01:04:07,360 --> 01:04:09,200
Speaker 1: the first round. It would be an epic series, a

1233
01:04:09,240 --> 01:04:12,640
Speaker 1: really interesting series, but I don't think you'll want to

1234
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 1: play I don't think you particularly want to play the

1235
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: Warriors in the first first round because that would feel

1236
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 1: like an early exit some of these guys. Although they

1237
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 1: did beat the Warriors on Christmas Day without Lebron James,

1238
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,920
Speaker 1: they need Alonzo Ball back because he's so good defensively,

1239
01:04:27,280 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 1: and Lebron is not as good defensive he's used to

1240
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 1: be in Kyle Kusum is not a good defender. Rondo

1241
01:04:31,120 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 1: is not what he what his reputation does use a

1242
01:04:33,040 --> 01:04:36,360
Speaker 1: defender either. And to anybody out there who says that

1243
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: the Celtics are better without Kyrie Irving, ask anybody in

1244
01:04:38,920 --> 01:04:41,000
Speaker 1: the league, look at the metrics, and oh yeah, by

1245
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 1: the way, look at the quality of opponent when he's

1246
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 1: playing Um. It's simply not true. If it were true,

1247
01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: if they felt it was true, they wouldn't they'd move him.

1248
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 1: But the reason they want they're willing to move mountains

1249
01:04:52,320 --> 01:04:54,240
Speaker 1: to bring back Kyrie Irving, to continue to recruit him

1250
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,000
Speaker 1: when he can't be a little bit of paying the ass,

1251
01:04:56,760 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: is because he is, in fact that good. All right,

1252
01:04:59,800 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the All Ball podcast. Enjoyed my

1253
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,760
Speaker 1: good friend Frank McCaffrey. I thought that was a really

1254
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: interesting tale. We got great stuff for you up became.

1255
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:11,360
Speaker 1: Make sure you downloads rate and subscribe and tell a

1256
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:15,959
Speaker 1: friend about this pod because we talk all ball all

1257
01:05:16,200 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: the time. I'm Doug Gottlip and this is all Ball