1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,280 Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media. 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to Cool People Did Cool Stuff. You're 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 2: a weekly reminder that when there's bad things, there's people 4 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 2: fighting bad things, and one of the people who fights 5 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:20,160 Speaker 2: bad things is my guest, Francesco Quarantine Post of Situation Room. 6 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 2: How are you. 7 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:22,000 Speaker 1: I'm okay. 8 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 3: I feel like I have a cape on now, I'm 9 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 3: I'm all right. I am yeah, I'm sort of girding 10 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 3: my loins for the future bad things we have to fight, 11 00:00:30,480 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 3: but excited to talk about the bad things we fought 12 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 3: in the past with you, because maybe that's what we 13 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 3: need to, like, you know, just fuel this anti fascist 14 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 3: movement that we all, whether we know it or not, 15 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 3: are part of. 16 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're kind of caught in it regardless. 17 00:00:49,040 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: Of our desires. Sorry, you're in it now. 18 00:00:51,479 --> 00:00:53,920 Speaker 2: No, it's okay, and actually that's a really Oh wait 19 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: before I get into using your natural transition into our topic. Instead, 20 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: I'm gonna talk about our producer, Sophie Hi. Sophie Hi, 21 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: and our audio engineer, danel Hi. 22 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: Danel Hey, danel. 23 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 2: Everyone's to say high danel Hi danel Our theme music 24 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:18,679 Speaker 2: is written for us by Unwoman. So this week's topic 25 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:24,199 Speaker 2: isn't happy, but it is pretty victorious compared to most 26 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 2: of what we talk about, and I also think it 27 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:30,920 Speaker 2: has a lot of lessons for where we are at 28 00:01:31,120 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 2: right now in a very specific way that I will 29 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 2: try not to get too heavy handed with throughout the script, 30 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: because this week we're going to talk about one of 31 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 2: the most important activist groups in US history, one of 32 00:01:44,600 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 2: the most impactful, memorable, and successful movements I've ever studied. 33 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 2: And even when I heard about them, their successes were 34 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: like sort of downplayed. They were like, oh, they were great, 35 00:01:55,680 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 2: little scrappy little group. But the more I read about them, 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 2: the more I realized that they kind of invented everything 37 00:02:03,640 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 2: about modern activism and ran across a lot of our 38 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 2: problems and found solutions for a lot of them. Because 39 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 2: this week we are talking about a little group called 40 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power, better known as act UP. 41 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: I knew, I knew, I knew it, and I knew it. 42 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 4: I was like, wait, wait, wait, this is so fucking 43 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,640 Speaker 4: act UP, which is great because maybe I am like 44 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 4: some listeners because I know in a little bit, but 45 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 4: I don't know a lot. 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: And I'm very. 47 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 3: Excited because there's just a million books I should have 48 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 3: read and I haven't done that, and I'm sorry. 49 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 2: There are a million books about this topic and some 50 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: of them disagree with each other, and I haven't read 51 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 2: them all. And I was actually thinking about it. I 52 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:51,640 Speaker 2: was like, it would be really easy to do a 53 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 2: twelve part or whatever on act UP, and I'm only 54 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:58,520 Speaker 2: doing a two parter, and so I'm kind of I'm 55 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:00,960 Speaker 2: going to tell the big and I'm going to tell 56 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 2: some of the details, but there's so many more details 57 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 2: that anyone listening to this should feel free to go 58 00:03:07,160 --> 00:03:09,080 Speaker 2: and learn about, because they're like big details. They're like 59 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 2: entire movements and entire cities that did entire successful campaigns. 60 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: When we get to understand act UP, we get to 61 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: understand something that runs counter to the narrative that people 62 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 2: tell about the AIDS crisis. I had always been presented 63 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 2: with his image of the gay male community, which is 64 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: the community most directly affected by the crisis in the US, 65 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: or one of the most directly affected communities. It was 66 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: not composed of helpless victims. And that's I'd always been 67 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: presented the sort of like angelic, dying old white man 68 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 2: as the like you know, icon of Tom Cruise. 69 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 3: I mean Tom cruise, Tom Cruise in Philadelphia. He wishes 70 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 3: Tom Hanks in Philadelphia. 71 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 2: I haven't seen that. 72 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 1: What that actually so good? 73 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,880 Speaker 2: Usually I do know something that's old enough to be this. 74 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: Yeah that re friends h huh yeah. Tom Crass couldn't have 75 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: played that role. He couldn't have. I mean, I don't know. 76 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 3: I have this weird soft spot for that scientologist. But 77 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: Tom Hanks at least his acting. Also the fact that 78 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: he's probably trapped. But yeah, the uh yeah, the idea 79 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 3: of this like middle class even like the Angels in 80 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 3: America characters kind of like middle class gay white gay 81 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 3: guy who is like, yeah, is the perfect victim for 82 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 3: this disease. 83 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 2: Right, Which is funny because I still like progress from 84 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: what came before that, which we'll talk about, which was 85 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 2: like you know, ah, these horrible degenerates got what was 86 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 2: coming to them, right, Yeah, But they were not helpless victims. 87 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,320 Speaker 2: The veterans have act up talk about it like it 88 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:54,640 Speaker 2: was a war, and it it was. They fought and 89 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 2: an awful lot of them died, Just a ton of 90 00:04:58,000 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: them died. But the writer Liz Heillyman put it simply, 91 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: in the US AIDS initially struck gay men a relatively 92 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 2: cohesive community that had considerable experience in political organizing. Act 93 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: UP wasn't like some outside force that came in and 94 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: saved people. And it wasn't like one gay man suddenly 95 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: had an idea and birthed a whole new form of activism. 96 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 2: Act UP. And this is one of the things that's 97 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 2: so interesting to me about it. It is directly part 98 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: of a lineage of decades of struggle for gay liberation 99 00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 2: in the US. It brought together experienced organizers from all 100 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 2: sorts of movements and they put together a messy, imperfect, critiquable, 101 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 2: astounding movement that fundamentally shifted the conversation about HIV and AIDS. 102 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,839 Speaker 2: It is a movement that saved countless lives, like easily 103 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: in the tens of millions. I don't know if I've 104 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,719 Speaker 2: covered a movement that I can so directly say like 105 00:05:55,279 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 2: these five thousand people saved twenty million lives. But that 106 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 2: is a thing you can say say about act UP. 107 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 2: And they let other people's lives end in dignified ways. 108 00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:11,600 Speaker 2: They also land the groundwork for activism for decades to come. 109 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:14,039 Speaker 2: And to be honest, I think we're at risk of 110 00:06:14,120 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: losing that connection in lineage, and that's part of why 111 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 2: I'm so excited to talk about them today. I'm kind 112 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 2: of curious. The first time I heard about Act Up. 113 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 2: It was a late nineties I was sixteen, and I 114 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 2: started taking art lessons from this like goth artist and 115 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: musician who became my mentor, This guy named Stephen Archer. 116 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:34,000 Speaker 2: He's not related to this story, but he's the first 117 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: person I saw an act Up thing on and I 118 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: never shout him out, and he's a cool guy. He 119 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 2: had been part of the DC punk and goth scene 120 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: in the eighties and so on his leather jacket he 121 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 2: had a black pin with a pink triangle and words 122 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:51,000 Speaker 2: in white that said Silence equals death, and this like 123 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 2: blew my suburban goth kid mind. I had no idea 124 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: what I was looking at, you know, and he explained 125 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 2: it to me, and it's such an iconic image and 126 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 2: a statement that it it stuck with me. Act Up 127 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: was really good at branding. That's one thing you can 128 00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: say about them. Yeah, how did you first hear about 129 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: Act Up? When? Was how did that so? 130 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 3: When I was involved in the like anti Iraq war 131 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 3: movements and the global justice movements in New York City. 132 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: There were some like old heads. 133 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 3: And they weren't old like Vietnam War old heads, but 134 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 3: like the gen X old heads, right, so they're just 135 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 3: like a one generation younger again, like those who are 136 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 3: really active. And I am forgetting his name, but like 137 00:07:42,160 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 3: when you said Steve, I was like, maybe mine's a 138 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 3: Steve too. But yeah, this guy who was involved, I 139 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 3: think in United for Peace Injustice, who also wore the 140 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: like act up pins and you just see it around 141 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: New York as like this was once a battleground in 142 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:04,320 Speaker 3: this fight and occasionally would be referenced as Yes, just 143 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: something that was like those who were organizing against their 144 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 3: very like for their very own lives because their friends 145 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 3: were dying every single week. And it's like just that 146 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 3: the enormity and the the like urgency of that moment. 147 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 3: I don't know if it can be restated. I mean, 148 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 3: I think we're seeing a version of that now with 149 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 3: the Palasaitian diaspora, people who are fighting against the genocide there. 150 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 3: But it is it is pretty amazing that there was 151 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,559 Speaker 3: an entire people that you know, the American public was 152 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 3: trying to sweep under the rug. 153 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just really rose to the occasion, you know, 154 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: this like monumental horror that they were facing and like 155 00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 2: rose up to fight it, and. 156 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 3: The idea that it would was falling on like like 157 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 3: silent voices, you know, and and being men being met 158 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,240 Speaker 3: with nothing just like either yes, you deserve it or 159 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 3: I think that actually is was from what I've read 160 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 3: and heard, the scariest part of the AIDS epidemic, in 161 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 3: the HIV epidemic was like pretending like it wasn't happening, 162 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 3: and that I think is what a lot of the 163 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: activists were fighting against. 164 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, we're gonna talk about some of the specific 165 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 2: ways they did it. First, I want to draw historical 166 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: lineage through lines that I was surprised to find, but 167 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 2: I was really excited to find because I really like 168 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 2: remembering that we are part of a direct lineage where 169 00:09:33,800 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: you can say, oh, this person knew this person, knew 170 00:09:35,679 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: this person knew this person going back a long ass time. 171 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to draw this back to the Spanish Civil War, 172 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,000 Speaker 2: because why not after the fall of the Spanish Republic 173 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: to Franco's fascism, anarchists and other like republic people minded 174 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 2: people fled en mass and a whole bunch of these 175 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: anarchists ended up in New York City, where they hung 176 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 2: out with a bunch of theater kids and poets and 177 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 2: theory nerds and eventually hippies and eventually punks. 178 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: Fuck yeah, I love this. 179 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,480 Speaker 3: I didn't know there was a lineage between people that 180 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 3: went to go fight in the Spanish Civil War and 181 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 3: the punk scene in New. 182 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 2: York, so that one's easy to draw. Oddly, interestingly, we 183 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: talked about it. There's this group called Up Against the 184 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: Wall Motherfuckers that was a late sixties movement in the 185 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 2: Lower East Side that was like white and Puerto Rican. 186 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,479 Speaker 2: They were hippies, but they wore all black and motorcycle 187 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: jackets and were a gang. They were punks, and then 188 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 2: they liked pretty directly like when the punks came around. 189 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 2: I think there was like a lot of crossover and 190 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: they were like fighting cops and throwing down with the 191 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: black panthers and made it the whole thing about them. 192 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: But the guy who started at ben Mooream, he was 193 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 2: in these like book clubs with veterans from the Spanish 194 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 2: Civil War, And interestingly enough, these people who fled the 195 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: Spanish Civil War in terms of how they've influenced later activism. 196 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: The export that really spread the furthest wasn't anarchism the 197 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: political theory. It was a bunch of the organizing models 198 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 2: that they had developed in that battleground. For the past 199 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: few generations, especially the past few decades, mass movements across 200 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 2: the world have tended towards horizontal organizing and the promotion 201 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 2: of direct action as the way to get things done. 202 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: And two ideas proliferated. One was the model of the 203 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 2: Affinity Group and the other was the model of the 204 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 2: spokes Council. 205 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 3: And I like, oh, this is bringing me back, Margaret. Yes, 206 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 3: spokes counsel of the Affinity Group. It's two thousand and four. 207 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 3: Were organizing against the Republican National Convention. There's undercovers everywhere. 208 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:40,959 Speaker 1: It's fucking great. 209 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. I walked out of a mass arrest and none 210 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 2: of my friends wanted to get out of it. Like 211 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:47,520 Speaker 2: I had a plan on how to get out of it. 212 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: You've told me this story. 213 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, that's right. I have like one story 214 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 2: about the RNC and I tell it all the time 215 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 2: because you got caught, right, you got to rest at that. 216 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, but I can't remember if we've decided that we 217 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 3: were arrested in the same spot. Did you hop over 218 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 3: and run through a graveyard? No defense. 219 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: I when the police were closing people near Washington Square Park, 220 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 2: they were like, they trapped in it. I think it 221 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:12,439 Speaker 2: was the second day massarrests. On the first day, they 222 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: trapped everyone at the end of the block, and then 223 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 2: they started drawing the police line and squeezing people together. 224 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:21,080 Speaker 2: And so I just walked past the police line while 225 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 2: they were drawing it and then stood on the sidewalk 226 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,880 Speaker 2: and watched because I couldn't leave because there's still too 227 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 2: many police. Because like, one of my favorite lessons I've 228 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 2: ever learned is that while cops are in the process 229 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,160 Speaker 2: of drawing a police line, their command is. Cops are 230 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,320 Speaker 2: very simple machines. They can only follow one order at 231 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 2: a time, and the order is draw the police line, 232 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:43,720 Speaker 2: not arrest people. So you can move past it while 233 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 2: they're drawing it. I've used I've gotten on mass arrests 234 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:47,679 Speaker 2: three times using this trick. 235 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: Nope, but that would break the affinity group back to 236 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 3: what you were trying to explain. 237 00:12:54,880 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: Right, well done behind Yeah, well, I was like, hey, 238 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: let's get out of here, and they were like no, 239 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 2: we're having too much fun. They're like, you know, the 240 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,839 Speaker 2: bands playing, and I'm like, I'm getting out of here, 241 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 2: and you were just like bye. 242 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 243 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 2: And then I had survivor's guilt, and then I didn't 244 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: make a bunch of money in a lawsuit, but I 245 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 2: eventually lost from a different. 246 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 3: As I was thirteen thousand dollars as yeah, I bought 247 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 3: a new laptop with that. 248 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: Money and other things. 249 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,400 Speaker 2: Obviously a lot of people like were like, I live 250 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 2: in Pittsburgh, I'm buying a whole ass house with my thirties. 251 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: Technically I know God anyway, so I didn't get to 252 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: buy a house. So infinity groups and spokes councils are 253 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 2: the building blocks of a lot of social movements. Or 254 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:42,280 Speaker 2: affinity groups are the building blocks, and spokes councils are 255 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,560 Speaker 2: the mortar that holds them together. An affinity group is 256 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 2: basically a group of like five to fifteen people that 257 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,560 Speaker 2: shares affinity and common goals and strategies. And I would 258 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: say three to nine. Actually five to fifteen is what 259 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 2: people often say. My experience, I often see like three 260 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 2: to nine. But whatever. Spokes councils are decision making and 261 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: information sharing bodies where they someone from a group, such 262 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,320 Speaker 2: as an affinity group, comes and speaks for that group, 263 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,319 Speaker 2: and they are usually fairly directly speaking for that group 264 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 2: and can They're not there to express their own opinion, 265 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 2: They're there to represent the group. 266 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: It's a form of direct, directly democratic decision exactly. 267 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: Yeah. And these models infuse an awful lot of the 268 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: social movements of the era, I think, especially starting in 269 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties. If I were to map my 270 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 2: understanding the genealogy of social movements in the US, You've 271 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: got these sort of like proper movements fighting for civil 272 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: rights through approve channels in the fifties, which then moved 273 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 2: into nonviolent action in the early sixties, moving into more 274 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 2: big militant organizations in late sixties, which then, in response 275 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: to repression, moved underground and separated from mass organizing and 276 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: moved to clandestinity and like you know, blowing things up 277 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: and robbing people and stuff. In the early seventies, how 278 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: the weather underground and the Black Liberation Army grew out 279 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 2: of the Students for Democratic Society and the Black Panthers. 280 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 2: On some level, these are really broad strokes I'm drawling with, 281 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 2: And this all does come together because these things are 282 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: more related than people are like they're not. I mean, 283 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: every movement is separate, but they're also all tied together. 284 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: When these clandestine movements were hunted down, what was left 285 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: was really interesting and radical community organizing. All of these 286 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: hardened revolutionaries doing social work, setting up schools, building infrastructure, 287 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: doing the like less confrontational stuff that was still vital 288 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 2: to either social progress or revolution. And then slowly movements 289 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: grew back up again, and it was the movements growing 290 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,600 Speaker 2: up at this point, the peace movement, the anti nuke movement, 291 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: the feminist movement, gay rights, food not bombs, civil rights, 292 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: social justice stuff, abortion, clinic defense, Earth First, and act 293 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 2: UP that took on this decentralized leaderless or leader full 294 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: depending on who you ask, character that has since defined 295 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: protests for so long. An act Up, I'm going to argue, 296 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: was kind of an early culmination of this model. It 297 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 2: brought together the veterans of all of these different movements 298 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 2: into one place and focused them on one major goal, 299 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 2: how to help stop the AIDS crisis when it comes 300 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 2: out of all kinds of movements, its most immediate legacy 301 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 2: was the gay liberation movement, which we've talked about in 302 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 2: the show before they get a whole week of it. 303 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 2: A while back, queer folks were decently well organized in 304 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: militant and they had been for about a decade at 305 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: this point when the AIDS crisis hits. Then in nineteen 306 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: eighty one, on June fifth, the CDC announced a strange phenomenon. 307 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: A bunch of gay men in LA were getting types 308 00:16:55,760 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 2: of pneumonia that are seen in immunocompromise people. It's sort 309 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 2: of cropping up among gay men in cities around the country. 310 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 2: Soon enough, by nineteen eighty two, they suspected it was 311 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,159 Speaker 2: some kind of sexually transmitted infection that was behind this. 312 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 2: And the first name they gave it was grid gay 313 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:20,919 Speaker 2: related immune deficiency or even more informally and more evilly, 314 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: gay cancer. 315 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:23,120 Speaker 1: No. 316 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, there were three other groups of pay related. 317 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: Like how unscientific do you have to know? What calls? 318 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:32,720 Speaker 1: Ye it's gay related? 319 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. There's a bunch of gays. What 320 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: can you who's to. 321 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 1: Know there's a relation here? I'm not going to look 322 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:41,800 Speaker 1: into it. Who's called gay related? 323 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: Yeah? There was three other groups of people that were 324 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 2: also immediately getting it. Hemophiliacs who needed like blood transfusions 325 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 2: and stuff ivy drug users, and Haitian immigrants. By August 326 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, the CDC named it Acquired Immune deficiency syndrome, 327 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: or AIDS. And at the start, there were two theories 328 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,639 Speaker 2: about what caused AIDS. And what's interesting is that, like 329 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 2: this gets like way political about some people were like 330 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: wildly mad at each other about what causes AIDS. Sure, 331 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: and I'm not going to get into the ins and 332 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: outs of the political parts of it because it is 333 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: messy and people that you don't expect would have opinions 334 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,639 Speaker 2: that turned out to be incorrect. One of these two theories, 335 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 2: which will call the correct theory but they called the 336 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: new agent theory, was that there was a specific pathogen 337 00:18:35,760 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 2: causing AIDS. The second theory, which we'll call the nope 338 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,920 Speaker 2: they were wrong, was the multi factoral theory, which was 339 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,640 Speaker 2: basically the idea that there's like something that in semen 340 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 2: where if you get too much of it, it suppresses 341 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 2: your immune system. And this isn't as like wacky bunk 342 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 2: science as it immediately sounds. There was like people who 343 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,120 Speaker 2: actually were affected by it and like had some reasons 344 00:19:02,119 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 2: to think about some stuff like we're developing this theory 345 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,159 Speaker 2: and it was incorrect. 346 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: The too much gum theory, yeah, the too. 347 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: Much cum theory yeah, which is Yeah. They did a 348 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 2: lot of like work around, trying to work backwards to 349 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 2: be like, Okay. 350 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes you can be too gay. We're trying to think of. 351 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 2: A way of less come involved. 352 00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah. 353 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. So there's this new bad thing going around killing people, 354 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 2: and right away people are organizing. By May nineteen eighty three, 355 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,040 Speaker 2: two men with aids and a doctor friend and then 356 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 2: one of their partners as an editor, get together and 357 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: publish one of the first safer sex guides in history. 358 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 2: Almost all like I used to when I had a 359 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 2: different publishing life. I like once read an awful lot 360 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 2: of old Victorian sex manuals. Yeah, yeah, and old Victorian 361 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: sex manuals are like they're all like sex is bad. 362 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,280 Speaker 2: If you're going to do it, feel bad about yourself, 363 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: and then do the following. 364 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: Right and enjoy it whatever you do. 365 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, And there were to be clear, there were people 366 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: like smuggling in actual safe sex practices and often going 367 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 2: to jail for it, and it ties into the history 368 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 2: of birth control and all of this stuff. But and 369 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: like the wild idea that the female orgasm is real. 370 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 2: Was this like whole big thing people were fighting for 371 00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:39,679 Speaker 2: in the early twentieth century anyway, in terms of like 372 00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: modern sex positive safer sex guides, this is like one 373 00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: of the first ones, if not the first one. It's 374 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:52,120 Speaker 2: called how to Have Sex in an Epidemic one Approach, 375 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: And it was the first advocacy for condoms for gay 376 00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 2: male sex because before before that, people did not routinely 377 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: use condoms because there was not a risk of pregnancy, right, 378 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 2: So that was one thing, and then they actually were 379 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 2: into the multi factoral theory. They were into the too 380 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: much com theory. But like it's not because they were 381 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,199 Speaker 2: like fools. 382 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,159 Speaker 3: But this is what's interesting about this moment is like 383 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 3: it kind of reminds you of any epidemic, I mean, 384 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,640 Speaker 3: in COVID nineteen right any pandemic where you're like people 385 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 3: are dying literally right now, and you're trying to figure 386 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 3: out whether it's a Chinese virus leaked by a lab 387 00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 3: or whether it you know, came from someone eating a 388 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 3: pangolin who had a cold. You know, like it's like, 389 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 3: who the fuck cares, Let's save some lives right now. 390 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,880 Speaker 1: But the but of course it is so much easier 391 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: to deflect. 392 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 3: And you know, I don't know, make some money off 393 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,720 Speaker 3: anti China rhetoric by by nasaying. 394 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 1: By basically just focusing on the forest. 395 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 3: And missing you know, focusing on the trees and missing 396 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 3: the forest of the fact that people are dying. Yeah, absolutely, 397 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 3: and politicizing it. So it's just like and so that's 398 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 3: just crazy because in a year they had lost the 399 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 3: like I mean, I know that there was still the stigma, 400 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:15,399 Speaker 3: but you stopped calling it grid and started calling it 401 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 3: AIDS in just a year. 402 00:22:16,760 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: And that's just shows you. 403 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 3: I assume how fast it was spreading, how broad it was, 404 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 3: and how many people were dying. 405 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is an awkward place to transition to ads. 406 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:32,040 Speaker 2: And yet we are left doing that because here's dads 407 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:42,920 Speaker 2: and we're back. 408 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 409 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: And people, like I said right away, they're doing things 410 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,920 Speaker 2: about it. They're saying, like, how do we change our 411 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 2: culture to keep ourselves safe? How do we publish these 412 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 2: books talking about it. Another person who started doing something 413 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,239 Speaker 2: about it was this guy named Larry Kramer. He had 414 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 2: never been an activist before he was in the movie business, 415 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,439 Speaker 2: and he was sort of infamous in both the straight 416 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 2: world and the gay world. For a novel he wrote 417 00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 2: called Fagots that talked about a life of emotionless sex 418 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 2: and drugs and so like the straight people are like, ah, 419 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: gay stuff, and then a lot of the gay community 420 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 2: was like, stop spreading our dirty laundry around the world. 421 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 2: He considers himself like a just a bruly, honest kind 422 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,680 Speaker 2: of guy. I read a long form interview with him 423 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,880 Speaker 2: from the act Up. I didn't write down the name 424 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 2: of this, it's in my sources somewhere, but the act 425 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 2: Up audio. There's an oral history project that some people 426 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 2: did in the early aughts. Anyway, His family was Russian 427 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: and Jewish and working class from Maryland. In August nineteen 428 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: eighty one, he invited like eighty gay men over to 429 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 2: his apartment so they could talk about what the fuck 430 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 2: they were gonna do. And so within a few months 431 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 2: they started a group called the Gay Men's Health Crisis, 432 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: which is the longest running aid service organization and probably 433 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 2: in the world, and it is still around today. Their 434 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,600 Speaker 2: first meeting once they were incorporated was at the Church 435 00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,160 Speaker 2: of Saint Joseph and Greenwich Village, which is a Catholic church. 436 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 2: It's going to come up. A lot of the activism 437 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,560 Speaker 2: is going to be against the Catholic Church, but also 438 00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: a lot of Catholics are going to be involved in 439 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: the fighting. 440 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: Yeah. 441 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 3: But also they have like free meeting space, so we're 442 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 3: going to take that meeting space. 443 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. And most of the people that I 444 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 2: was reading about in act up were either Catholic or Jewish, 445 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: whether by heritage or actual faith, with some like Protestants 446 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,600 Speaker 2: here and there. Yeah. And so the Gay Men's Health 447 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: Crisis was a fairly traditionally organized group. They were a nonprofit. 448 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,560 Speaker 2: They had a president, they had a crisis hotline, and 449 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: they offered legal aid, access to social workers. They raised 450 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 2: money through like normal fundraiser channels and things like that, 451 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 2: which is good and important, but they were like very 452 00:24:56,240 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 2: don't rock the boat. They were very don't antagonize people. 453 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 2: You catch more flies with honey or whatever. 454 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 3: Right, we're going to solve this. This community can solve 455 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 3: this kind of not on our own, but like, yeah, 456 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 3: a little of a bit of a charity case situation 457 00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 3: will help, Which is like I can't imagine how many cases, 458 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 3: how many people needed help. 459 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just like what like that seems just 460 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: like a whack a mole. 461 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very quickly, within tens of thousands, and with 462 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: New York City alone per year. And Larry Kramer was like, 463 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:29,680 Speaker 2: he was not a I want to be polite guy. 464 00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 2: And soon enough he's going to start doing a bunch 465 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 2: of stuff that eventually will have him leaving the group 466 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: over difference of opinions about strategy and about whether or 467 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: not to be angry. He told Sarah Schulman in an 468 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 2: interview in two thousand and three. We tried to be 469 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 2: very nice to the New York Times and to Ed Coke, 470 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 2: the mayor at the time, and you learn very fast 471 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 2: that you're a faggot. And it doesn't make any difference 472 00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 2: that you went to Yale and were assistant to presidents 473 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 2: of a couple of film companies, and that you had money. 474 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: And the GMHC didn't like when people raise their voice 475 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 2: is or criticize the mayor. So Larry Kramer's like, whatever 476 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: comes next is not going to be rigidly structured and 477 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 2: it's not going to be polite. He wrote an essay 478 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 2: called and twelve and Counting in nineteen eighty three in 479 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 2: a gay magazine that was a screed about lack of 480 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: government and response to the spread of the disease. He 481 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,119 Speaker 2: blamed the CDC and the NIH, but he also blamed 482 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 2: gay men who were ignoring the problem. And basically he 483 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 2: was like, well, we kind of need to stop having 484 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 2: sex while we get to sort it out. People didn't 485 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 2: like that. 486 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, nobody likes abstinence except for the modern Republican Party. 487 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, who don't actually like it themselves, they want 488 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:48,160 Speaker 2: everyone else to do it. He also started confronting bureaucrats. 489 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,800 Speaker 2: He threw a drink and a gay Republican fundraiser's face 490 00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 2: for his hypocrisy. There's this really long and contentious history 491 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,240 Speaker 2: and gay activism about whether or not you should publicly 492 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: out homophobic gay people who are like wielding power from 493 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 2: the right wing. 494 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 1: Oh right, so who do you protect? Right? Yeah? 495 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 3: Like it goes to like real identity politics, like you know, 496 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:12,840 Speaker 3: like intersectionality questions here. 497 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 2: Totally and also just like how rude do you, like, 498 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 2: do you want to expose someone to homophobia in order 499 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 2: to make a political point? 500 00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: Sure s sure, especially by outing them. 501 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 2: Yeah. Forced outing was like absolutely a tactic of gay 502 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,560 Speaker 2: liberation going back, like the first gay men's magazine, des 503 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 2: Shwimmer in Germany from the eighteen nineties. I think would 504 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 2: do forced outing of like really yeah, and it's it's 505 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 2: Lady Gray like and I don't I don't know how 506 00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: I feel about it. I also don't know Lady Gray is. 507 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:53,720 Speaker 2: And Sophie's giving me the like Margaret doesn't know that 508 00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: to get this reference, isn't. 509 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 3: That's Lindsay Graham's nickname in DC apparently is Lady Gray. 510 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 2: Okay, And so Larry Kramer spent a couple of years 511 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 2: doing this kind of activism alone. It's not because he 512 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:07,680 Speaker 2: was the only person doing it. It's because he hadn't 513 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 2: connected up with folks who are also doing it. Because 514 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 2: like throwing drinks in like people's faces and stuff is cool, 515 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: but it works better when it's coordinated. And so for 516 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,439 Speaker 2: all the shit, he basically gets kicked out of this 517 00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: group he started, and he breaks up with his partner 518 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 2: who's still on the board, and he goes wandering. He 519 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 2: goes to Dico, the concentration camp, and he writes a 520 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: play called The Normal Heart. And it's not a coincidence 521 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,800 Speaker 2: that he's Jewish and that he's going to concentration camps 522 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:41,040 Speaker 2: and looking at this because he absolutely is perceiving this 523 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: as a holocaust that is happening right. Gay men are 524 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 2: dying in mass fifty thousand gay men are dying a year. 525 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: Gay men in big cities are going to a funeral 526 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 2: every week, sometimes more. Sometimes you miss one friend's funeral 527 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 2: because you're at a different friend's funeral. Life expectancy after 528 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:05,440 Speaker 2: diagnosis was too. By nineteen eighty four, two French doctors 529 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 2: had figured out that there was this virus HIV that 530 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: caused AIDS the most likely origin. Speaking of the politicization 531 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 2: of where does the thing come from? How racist can 532 00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 2: we be about it? You know, I'm going to talk 533 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: about where the best understanding of where it comes from 534 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: is because it ties into colonialism. Most likely it was 535 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 2: passed from chimpanzees to humans sometimes around the tourney of 536 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 2: the twentieth century during the like scramble for Africa, when 537 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 2: Europe was just fucking over Africa as hard as they could. 538 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: And this probably happened in the Belgian Congo, the place 539 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 2: where King Leopold was murdering millions of people. It also, 540 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 2: and really importantly, and I wish I didn't have to 541 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 2: say it, it didn't jump to humans through humans fucking animals. 542 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:52,680 Speaker 1: As hot as that sounds. 543 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,680 Speaker 2: It comes through hunting practices almost certainly, where you're just 544 00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 2: exposed to the blood of event animals. The virus spread 545 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: from Africa, probably the Congo, hitting Haiti in around nineteen 546 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 2: sixty seven, and there's a whole lot that has been 547 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,480 Speaker 2: written about how the spread of it was happening because 548 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 2: of like the way in which like social practices and 549 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 2: cultural things and how everyone was living was shifted so 550 00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 2: completely by colonization. Right, it hit Haiti probably around nineteen 551 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 2: sixty seven. There's again a lot of different takes about 552 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 2: how it's spread, and there's like political motivations behind people 553 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: giving you different ideas of how it's spread, but the 554 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,040 Speaker 2: one that seems likely or maybe I'm drawn to this 555 00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,720 Speaker 2: explanation because it blames capitalism and colonial extraction. 556 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: But you're biased in favor of, you know, just reality. 557 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,360 Speaker 2: That's certainly how I perceive it. Yes, there was this 558 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 2: corrupt politician in Haiti named Luckner Kimbrone, and he was 559 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: called the Vampire of the Caribe because he ran sketchy 560 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 2: blood clinics and sold people's plasma to the US, often 561 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,480 Speaker 2: killing people for their blood, like perfectly safe, haunting people 562 00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 2: in the streets to oh my god, kill them for 563 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 2: their blood. 564 00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 1: Oh my god, poor hate. I swear to fucking Knoddy. 565 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 3: He's like, every time you learn of like some former 566 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,680 Speaker 3: awful dictator in Haiti, there's like another guy. 567 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And this guy wasn't even dictator. He just 568 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 2: like worked for. 569 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: One of the guys, you know, O side side hustle. 570 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like we really the West was like, oh, 571 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 2: you all like gonna have this slave revolution. We're going 572 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 2: to fucking punish you forever. 573 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:40,440 Speaker 1: We're going to punish you forever. 574 00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 2: Sixteen hundred gallons of plasma a month was exported to 575 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 2: the US during this guy's time, and HIV was spreading 576 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 2: between the patients in his clinics because they didn't sanitize 577 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: their equipment, and it spread in the US partly from 578 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,240 Speaker 2: that exported plasma. Wow, it spread most aggressively in the 579 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 2: gay male community because unprotected anal intercourse is the riskiest 580 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: kind of sex for HIV transmission. It also the communities 581 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 2: that hit first in the US Plazitian immigrants was probably 582 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: IV drug users. It was called drunkie flu or the 583 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:26,520 Speaker 2: dwindles or junkie pneumonia and no one cared or noticed. 584 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,960 Speaker 2: Because if there is a community even more disregarded by 585 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,400 Speaker 2: society at large than gay people in the late seventies 586 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: and early eighties, it is homeless drug users. It actually 587 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 2: probably hit this community first in like nineteen seventy seven 588 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 2: or so, and nothing was done about it. These people's 589 00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 2: deaths aren't even written down, you know. So and fortunately, 590 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 2: actually Act Up is going to be so fucking intersexual. 591 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 2: This is like where they a lot of people will 592 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,080 Speaker 2: like critique them, and I'm not going to get too 593 00:32:57,160 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 2: much into the critiques of them in this episode, but 594 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 2: like a lot of people were like a lot of 595 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,000 Speaker 2: the early act Up people are middle class white gay men, 596 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 2: right right, right, but a lot of their immediate supporters 597 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 2: are not. And the people who come in with like 598 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,240 Speaker 2: a lot of activist information are not. And they like 599 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: challenge themselves and do a lot of work about how 600 00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: to become and act intersectionally. And one of the things 601 00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 2: that they do is they really go to bat for 602 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 2: ivy drug users. 603 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 3: That's fucking huge, right, because they realize like they need 604 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 3: to be in the same boat. 605 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely right. 606 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 3: They didn't turn against them. It's like, no, no, this 607 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 3: is their problem. 608 00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:33,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're the good sufferers. 609 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 1: Right exactly, which you could sort of see happening. 610 00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:38,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, it could have happened. 611 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 1: No, that is another thing. 612 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,400 Speaker 3: That I remembered about this movement was precisely that was 613 00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:47,640 Speaker 3: that while destigmatizing you know, being gay, it the AIDS 614 00:33:47,680 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 3: ANTI you know, the act up movement was also about 615 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 3: destigmatizing IVY drug use. 616 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and we'll talk about it later. But like 617 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 2: did an awful lot of the work for the modern 618 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:03,280 Speaker 2: Needle Exchange program, and like, yes, they just I don't know. 619 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 2: I had known the broad strokes in some of the 620 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 2: cool specific actions, but like they're just I love. Most 621 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 2: of the time when I do these episodes, I start 622 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:14,959 Speaker 2: off with a group, I'm like, oh, that group's cool, 623 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:17,160 Speaker 2: and then I like read more and I'm like, this 624 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 2: is the coolest thing in the world. 625 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:20,759 Speaker 1: Like why can't we have this? 626 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. So meanwhile, queers all over the country are organizing, 627 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,279 Speaker 2: and of course this means New York City. Also on 628 00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 2: December twentieth, the New York Times ran a headline sale 629 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 2: of Sight to Homosexuals planned because this is where a 630 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: building that gets called the Center is still which is 631 00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 2: still around, comes into being a community center. It is 632 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 2: now called the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transgender Community Center 633 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,359 Speaker 2: and fell into some queer hands in nineteen eighty three. 634 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,240 Speaker 2: It was originally called the Lesbian and Gay Community Services Center. 635 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,840 Speaker 2: A director described it that whole rush to address the 636 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 2: AIDS epidemic was critical to institution building in the gay community. 637 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: There was this realization that if we do it together, 638 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 2: we get it done. If we don't do it together, 639 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 2: we're going to die. 640 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 641 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 2: So a bunch of groups got together to buy it, 642 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,719 Speaker 2: including Sage, Senior Action in a Gay Environment and the 643 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,839 Speaker 2: Metropolitan Community Church, which was a queer affirming Protestant congregation, 644 00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 2: and by the end of the first year, sixty groups 645 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 2: were meeting there. These days, hundreds of groups meet there 646 00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 2: because it's still around, and they brought in speakers all 647 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 2: the time. One day in early nineteen eighty seven they 648 00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:39,600 Speaker 2: brought in Larry Kramer, the guy we were talking about 649 00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: you promised to talk about the fight against AIDS. He 650 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 2: started off his talk by having two thirds of the 651 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 2: room stand up, and then he said, you will all 652 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 2: be dead in five years. And then he said, quote, 653 00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 2: if my speech tonight doesn't scare the shit out of 654 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 2: you we're in real trouble. What you're here doesn't rouse 655 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 2: you to anger, fury, rage, and action. Gay men will 656 00:36:04,320 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: have no future here on earth? How long does it 657 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:11,719 Speaker 2: take before you get angry and fight back? Then he 658 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 2: pitched that they start a new political organization devoted to 659 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: political action. And he didn't say, this is what it's 660 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:19,760 Speaker 2: got to be and I'm going to be in charge. Right, 661 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 2: he actually did, which is the same thing he did 662 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: last time. He said we should start something, and the 663 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,040 Speaker 2: thing that got started was too polite for his tastes. 664 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,279 Speaker 2: And so then a couple of years later he's like, hey, 665 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 2: we should start something and be angry, And three hundred 666 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,840 Speaker 2: people came two days later back to the Center to 667 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,840 Speaker 2: form act UP, the AIDS Coalition to Unleash Power. 668 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: To unleash power. Yeah, I love that. 669 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 3: I mean I know that maybe that followed from the 670 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,839 Speaker 3: acronym of wanting to say like act up, but. 671 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: Like to unleash power. He's like, so fucking tight. 672 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:55,200 Speaker 2: You can get some good poetry from a backronym, you know, 673 00:36:55,440 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: because you're like, the restrictions help bring out the creative absolutely. 674 00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 3: But now would you call this was this a spokes 675 00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,959 Speaker 3: counsel or you're going to get some spokes cancel part leader. 676 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 2: So it's actually from the kind of funny Larry Kramer 677 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 2: talks a lot about how he's like, I don't know 678 00:37:10,360 --> 00:37:13,239 Speaker 2: any of that leftist terminology, and the interviewer is like, 679 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 2: but we used affinity groups and direct action. He was like, 680 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 2: when I was in the film industry, everyone was a 681 00:37:18,120 --> 00:37:20,439 Speaker 2: Marxist and used Marxist slang, and I refuse to learn 682 00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 2: any of it because he's like an old grouch who 683 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 2: kind of rules, you know, right. 684 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,239 Speaker 1: He was just like it was a meeting. I don't 685 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,360 Speaker 1: know it was meaning of other meetings. 686 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, meaning of groups, like are we gonna use 687 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,839 Speaker 2: direct actor? Well, we're gonna go fight the fuckers? Like, yes, 688 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 2: direct action, you know. So I think it started off 689 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 2: on an affinity group model. But the way that I 690 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 2: kind of understand it is that this very very initial group, 691 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,840 Speaker 2: or at least Larry Kramer is like not a political actor, 692 00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 2: doesn't perceive himself as a political actor, but immediately, like 693 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 2: within a couple of weeks, if not at that first meeting, 694 00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:03,120 Speaker 2: these like veterans from all of these other movements come 695 00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:06,919 Speaker 2: together and help and help form it, and I think 696 00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:10,600 Speaker 2: at that point you start getting very explicitly. We talk 697 00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 2: about how we use direct action, we are using affinity groups, 698 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 2: and all of their organizing happens through affinity groups. That 699 00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 2: it's gonna be really interesting how that happens. But what 700 00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 2: else they didn't do is they didn't have advertisers. Actually, okay, wait, 701 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 2: I take that back. Later we're going to talk about 702 00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:32,240 Speaker 2: a bunch of like advertising people who are graphic designers 703 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 2: who are an act up who like change the fucking world. 704 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:39,160 Speaker 2: So everyone has a day job, and some people's day 705 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 2: job is to make ads, and some people's day job 706 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 2: is this podcast, which now is going to ads. And 707 00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 2: we're back. Okay. You know that famous Margaret Meade quote. 708 00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 2: I don't know shit about Margaret Meade, but there's that 709 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 2: quote that's famous. Hell never doubt that a small group 710 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 2: of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's 711 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 2: the only thing that ever has so good. I know. 712 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 2: I've also always had a like because it has to 713 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:15,719 Speaker 2: be a small group, not a like. I think like 714 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: one person very rarely like really like you change history 715 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:22,920 Speaker 2: by like connecting in with groups, you know, And I 716 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,000 Speaker 2: say this as someone who like, I'm an introvert, and 717 00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,680 Speaker 2: it makes me sad this realization, you know. But this 718 00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 2: group act Up, I feel like, proves this quote better 719 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 2: than anything I've ever read. It's biggest actions captain about 720 00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 2: five thousand people. Probably most people who've listened to this 721 00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 2: have been to way bigger protests than five thousand people. 722 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 1: But also it just depends on like, if those five 723 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 1: thousand people are doing direct action, that's fucking crazy. That's 724 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: a massive number exactly. 725 00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 2: Act Up is far and away one of the most 726 00:39:56,680 --> 00:39:59,600 Speaker 2: successful groups I've ever covered on the show. Despite not 727 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 2: they weren't tiny. It wasn't forty people in clandestine clicks, 728 00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 2: but it wasn't huge. I chalk up their outside impact 729 00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: to a few factors. You got one of them already. 730 00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 2: They were at the right place at the right time. 731 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,240 Speaker 2: It was a movement that needed to happen. The horizontal 732 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 2: structure of it emphasized the agency of individuals and small groups. 733 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:25,080 Speaker 2: So it wasn't a few thousand people who are like 734 00:40:25,120 --> 00:40:28,320 Speaker 2: following the crowd. It's a few thousand people divided into groups, 735 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,880 Speaker 2: each of which is like, all right, how are we 736 00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: going to get this shit done? And so you have 737 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 2: five thousand leaders instead of five thousand people the handful 738 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 2: of leaders. I used to kind of like make fun 739 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 2: of that quote, like when people be like, oh no, 740 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 2: we're leader full on that leader list. I was like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 741 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:45,319 Speaker 1: Yeah No. 742 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,719 Speaker 3: I definitely never heard that until later in life when 743 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,719 Speaker 3: I was no longer an activist. But I I do 744 00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 3: think it's kind of funny. But then you're like, nah, 745 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,560 Speaker 3: that's a good way of thinking about it. You know, 746 00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 3: you know which it is true. That's the other one, 747 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 3: Like I mean a calling in versus calling out, you know, 748 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,440 Speaker 3: like okay, but you're still calling them out. 749 00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:06,879 Speaker 2: No, but right. 750 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 3: The affinity group I think is really interesting because it 751 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 3: is sort of you know, it's people who should trust 752 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:16,359 Speaker 3: one another. It can be you know, not that there 753 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:18,960 Speaker 3: were necessarily infiltrators and act up, but it can be 754 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 3: like infiltration proof, you know, a little bit cop proof. 755 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:25,160 Speaker 3: If everyone if you've got five to fifteen people who 756 00:41:25,160 --> 00:41:27,960 Speaker 3: trust one another and can vouch for one another, and 757 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,520 Speaker 3: they're all kind of like down and have each other's back, 758 00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:34,040 Speaker 3: So it's I mean, man, I don't even have like 759 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,479 Speaker 3: five close friends. Shit, man, they're all over the plate, 760 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 3: like like I can't even name ten people I want 761 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 3: to hang out with on a Saturday night. So I 762 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:46,040 Speaker 3: think it's it's it's tight, like you know that that. Yeah, 763 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 3: and folks still are organizing in affinity groups. But I just, yeah, 764 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,680 Speaker 3: big ups the model of the affinity group. 765 00:41:53,040 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 2: Yeah no, no, but I feel you right. It's like 766 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 2: you're like, okay, well, you know, it's probably easier you're 767 00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,040 Speaker 2: twenty and part of a social scene. 768 00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:06,040 Speaker 3: You know exactly, we're all dumpster diving together, we're all 769 00:42:06,040 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 3: fucking the same people. 770 00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:10,479 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly, and then it'll all fall apart because 771 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,040 Speaker 2: we're all fucking the same people. 772 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, and then one of them is also an 773 00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:15,960 Speaker 3: undercover and it's all terrible. 774 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you just described nineteen ninety nine to two 775 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:21,680 Speaker 2: thousand and five. 776 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: Okay. 777 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 2: Other things that they had going for them, they had 778 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 2: a commitment to direct action and to inclusivity and not 779 00:42:30,920 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 2: policing each other. So it was very like you show 780 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:35,279 Speaker 2: up and be like, oh, we're doing this action, and 781 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 2: people be like okay, not like, oh, we all need 782 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,439 Speaker 2: to come to consensus about whether or not it's okay 783 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:43,320 Speaker 2: for you to do that action. You know, so everyone 784 00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:44,000 Speaker 2: wanted to do it. 785 00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:47,040 Speaker 1: You go, you know, let a thousand flowers bloom. 786 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Also the fact that so much of the 787 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 2: direction came from directly affected people, and one of their 788 00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 2: specific things was, we are going to become the experts 789 00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:02,240 Speaker 2: on our condition. We are going to be the ones 790 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: who are coming up with what the policy should be 791 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,000 Speaker 2: from the government about our issues, because we are now 792 00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:16,719 Speaker 2: the experts. And they did also they had this dual strategy, 793 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 2: which is basically good cup, bad cop. They would be 794 00:43:19,239 --> 00:43:23,640 Speaker 2: both the protesters outside screaming at the politicians and they'd 795 00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:28,719 Speaker 2: be the negotiators inside working on solutions. And it's fascinating 796 00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:30,719 Speaker 2: and there's like tension there right, Like you know, some 797 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 2: people are like, oh, you're all fucking liberals, don't fight 798 00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 2: hard enough, and other people be like, oh, you're all 799 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,600 Speaker 2: too unruly and disorganized, you know. But it's like it's 800 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 2: that tension where all this interesting shit comes from. 801 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 3: Thad, Yeah, I mean, I think what's really you know, 802 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:47,320 Speaker 3: I think there's like sort of a new a trendy 803 00:43:47,560 --> 00:43:51,080 Speaker 3: idea nowadays that you're not supposed to do like emotional 804 00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:55,439 Speaker 3: labor for people, which like I understand on a certain level, 805 00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:57,200 Speaker 3: but on the other level, it's like if you're actually 806 00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,239 Speaker 3: going to like change hearts and minds and actually get 807 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 3: to work. 808 00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,240 Speaker 1: You do need to do some emotional labor for people. 809 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 3: You need to do I mean, I don't know about 810 00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,200 Speaker 3: making them care about death, but you kind of do 811 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:10,800 Speaker 3: need to be like this, like Act Up is proving, 812 00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,319 Speaker 3: you need to be experts on the thing that you're 813 00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:16,520 Speaker 3: working around. You need to be educating people in your 814 00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 3: community and outside of your community. And that's going to 815 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,440 Speaker 3: be the hard work. It's not just going to be like, well, 816 00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,480 Speaker 3: everyone has to like you know, come to their own senses, 817 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,640 Speaker 3: like noah, nah, you're gonna have to be leading the 818 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:27,120 Speaker 3: way on that. 819 00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:29,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Like do your own research. 820 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,400 Speaker 1: No, you've got to do the research. 821 00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:34,760 Speaker 2: You know, totally. And I feel like there's this difference 822 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,680 Speaker 2: between fault and responsibility that society doesn't set us up 823 00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 2: to understand, where it's like, is it my fault that 824 00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:45,919 Speaker 2: as a trans woman, I like suffer certain bad shit. No, 825 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,840 Speaker 2: that's not my fault. Is it my responsibility? 826 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: Well? 827 00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 2: No one else is fucking fixing it, right, you know? 828 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 2: And like I appreciate the like allies and like literal allies, 829 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 2: like allies in a war who are helping me do that, 830 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 2: but it's still up to me. It is my responsibility 831 00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:06,000 Speaker 2: because it is not anyone else's, even if it's not like. 832 00:45:06,680 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 3: I'm thankful for you know, the transactivists that took me 833 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 3: through all you know, new terminology, new pronouns, you know. 834 00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 3: That's but exactly if they had been like, no, I'm 835 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:18,920 Speaker 3: not going to teach you, it's like, well, then I 836 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:19,960 Speaker 3: will be dumb. 837 00:45:20,400 --> 00:45:22,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly for a long time. I will pull in 838 00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:24,319 Speaker 2: a china like China shop this, you know. 839 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:24,719 Speaker 3: Yeah. 840 00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:25,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 841 00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,560 Speaker 2: So I've read some narratives about act UP that was 842 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 2: kind of like, well, we weren't political until all of 843 00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 2: a sudden we had to be, and other narratives that 844 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,400 Speaker 2: talk about act UP like it's the supergroup of activism 845 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,400 Speaker 2: in the eighties, and I, like I was saying, I 846 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,560 Speaker 2: think it's both. I think the initial founders are mostly 847 00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:42,719 Speaker 2: desperate gay men, and soon help rushed in from experienced 848 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,879 Speaker 2: organizers from a bunch of movements which included gay men 849 00:45:46,600 --> 00:45:49,080 Speaker 2: and gay women. And then you have the rank and 850 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 2: file on top of that, which is also largely new 851 00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,680 Speaker 2: to politics. Because of this horizontal structure, the direction and 852 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 2: guidance of the experienced organizers was like subtle instead of explicit. 853 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 2: It wasn't like, hey, we're coming in were in charge, right, 854 00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:03,840 Speaker 2: It's like they're coming in and being like, here's ways 855 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,440 Speaker 2: of democratically organizing to figure out what we all want, 856 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,040 Speaker 2: and so that kind of almost becomes invisible. They built 857 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:12,480 Speaker 2: up horizontal movement built out of affinity groups that were 858 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 2: each autonomous. It was nonpartisan in both that they didn't 859 00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,640 Speaker 2: have an ideological label and also that they didn't endorse 860 00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 2: political parties. It spread across the country in the world 861 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 2: soon enough. At their first meeting, they were like, all right, great, 862 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:27,959 Speaker 2: what are we going to do about it? And someone 863 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,440 Speaker 2: suggested they go after the FDA for being too slow 864 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 2: to approve experimental drugs that could save their lives. Larry 865 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,239 Speaker 2: Kramer wrote an op ed about it for the New 866 00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:38,840 Speaker 2: York Times, and then they marched on Wall Street the 867 00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:41,160 Speaker 2: same day that op ed came out March twenty fourth, 868 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:44,920 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four. This is their first action. Seventeen people 869 00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:49,680 Speaker 2: were arrested pretty much right off. They had doctors and 870 00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:53,359 Speaker 2: shit coming and joining, including this woman, this chemist, Iris Long, 871 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 2: who was a straight woman who had no connection to 872 00:46:55,560 --> 00:47:00,239 Speaker 2: aid suffering communities. She just was like, Oh, I know 873 00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:04,759 Speaker 2: about this stuff. I should go be helpful. So she 874 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,440 Speaker 2: was her fucking rules. She showed up, and she was 875 00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 2: the one explaining the science and the medicine and of 876 00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,239 Speaker 2: all like all the things that people were working on, 877 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,239 Speaker 2: and helped people become the experts. You know. One of 878 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,960 Speaker 2: their first actions was in DC on June first, nineteen 879 00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:24,480 Speaker 2: eighty seven, at the White House. Cops are so homophobic 880 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:27,160 Speaker 2: that they're wearing rubber gloves when they arrest the protesters, 881 00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:31,200 Speaker 2: afraid they'll catch like gay cancer, which, yeah, shut the 882 00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,960 Speaker 2: fuck up. By this point, people knew that that was 883 00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 2: not the case. 884 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 4: You know. 885 00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,480 Speaker 2: An airline refused to let people with AIDS fly, so 886 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 2: act Up went for two strategies at once with this airline. 887 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:45,280 Speaker 2: They sued them, and they also protested that their offices 888 00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:47,799 Speaker 2: like broken their offices. Well they're well, it's open, you know, 889 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,960 Speaker 2: and they won. Cosmopolitan magazine ran an article by a psychiatrist, 890 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,759 Speaker 2: and the psychiatrist had like put doctor in his name 891 00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,000 Speaker 2: when he wrote it, but he was actually a psychiatrist, 892 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 2: not a doctor of internal medicine. That he was like 893 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,000 Speaker 2: representing himself, you know. And the article was like, hey, 894 00:48:03,040 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 2: don't worry you straight, you won't get AIDS. 895 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:11,000 Speaker 3: Dude, and so first tend sex positions to avoid getting AIDS. 896 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 2: It was basically like, you're not a gay man, You're fine, 897 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:20,439 Speaker 2: you know. And so a bunch of women from Act 898 00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,960 Speaker 2: Up met up with the author and were like, Hey, 899 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:26,160 Speaker 2: you gonna you're gonna do a retraction, You're gonna apologize, 900 00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:30,160 Speaker 2: and he's like no. So they went to Cosmopolitan. They 901 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:33,160 Speaker 2: took a protest to the streets. They forced media attention 902 00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,840 Speaker 2: on the fact that women can get AIDS, and Cosmo 903 00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 2: was forced to print a partial retraction. Nice, which Get 904 00:48:39,120 --> 00:48:41,080 Speaker 2: said some of their like intersectionality right away too, like 905 00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,120 Speaker 2: a lot of their campaigns are like, hey, women can 906 00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,640 Speaker 2: get AIDS, you know. And it wasn't all like, hey, 907 00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,440 Speaker 2: we can only focus on the gay men who are 908 00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 2: like the most suffering people because we are focusing on them, 909 00:48:53,040 --> 00:48:55,440 Speaker 2: but we are also focusing on all these other communities that. 910 00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, on the misinformation, Yeah, totally. 911 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,040 Speaker 2: They They started round the clock protests at a hospital 912 00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:05,280 Speaker 2: demanding better clinical trials and that the clinical trials include 913 00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,120 Speaker 2: more patients with AIDS. They shut down the FDA for 914 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,640 Speaker 2: a day at this One of the arrestees was a 915 00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:15,160 Speaker 2: well known artist named David Wochnarowitz, who later died of 916 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 2: AIDS in nineteen ninety two. And this is where you 917 00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,040 Speaker 2: get this photo. He had painted up his jacket with 918 00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 2: the now famous words, if I die of AIDS, forget burial, 919 00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:30,200 Speaker 2: just drop my body. On the steps of the FDA. 920 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 2: They paired all of their protests with very specific demands 921 00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:37,440 Speaker 2: for how experimental drugs could be made available sooner, and 922 00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 2: it worked. Within a year. Act Up activists and experts 923 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 2: were regularly negotiating with the FDA and the National Institute 924 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,239 Speaker 2: for Health. They obviously had to keep it wasn't just 925 00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:51,400 Speaker 2: like hunky dory, Everything's fine now, right. They had to 926 00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:52,840 Speaker 2: keep up all this pressure in order to. 927 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,680 Speaker 3: Well, that's interesting. There's like such an inside outside strategy. 928 00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,080 Speaker 3: They're like, you know, pressuring from the streets, but then 929 00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:01,880 Speaker 3: also like hind closed doors, like meeting with folks, and 930 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 3: that's you know, I'm curious about how that was all 931 00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:08,040 Speaker 3: divvied up, you know, internally, but just to. 932 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:10,880 Speaker 1: Show like they had it was so clear. 933 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 3: Obviously most a lot of spokes councils and affinity groups 934 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:15,959 Speaker 3: and all that that I've been involved in our very 935 00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:19,319 Speaker 3: like broad nebulous movement, like you know, the global justice movement, 936 00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,480 Speaker 3: or the even the anti war movement, which you could argue, 937 00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:23,840 Speaker 3: I mean, even if it was very it was focused, 938 00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 3: it was still a massive issue. This is so specific 939 00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:32,439 Speaker 3: and so yeah, yeah, it's interesting to see how, Yeah, 940 00:50:32,480 --> 00:50:35,839 Speaker 3: when you can really hone in, you can fucking win. 941 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:41,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. They talk a lot about like, hey, you 942 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:43,759 Speaker 2: should have and I don't think this is the only 943 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:46,840 Speaker 2: way to run a movement, but they were fairly effective 944 00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,640 Speaker 2: with the strategy of like, come up with specific, articulable 945 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,120 Speaker 2: demands that are winnable and then go out and win them, right, 946 00:50:54,800 --> 00:50:56,960 Speaker 2: and use that to build power, instead of using that 947 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,759 Speaker 2: to be like, Haha, we've won our little reform, you know, 948 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:03,280 Speaker 2: instead be like, okay, we've won that reform. Now what's next. 949 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:08,680 Speaker 2: We've gained power, you know. From nineteen eighty one to 950 00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:12,520 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, the government spent a total of two 951 00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty million dollars on AIDS research. By nineteen 952 00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:18,960 Speaker 2: ninety one, when act Up was in full swing, the 953 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:23,160 Speaker 2: government was spending a billion dollars a year. And this 954 00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,839 Speaker 2: is a direct correlation. You asked me earlier before, Well, 955 00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 2: we weren't recording whether I was gonna talk shit on 956 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:32,879 Speaker 2: Anthony Fauci, and he's one of their main targets during 957 00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,759 Speaker 2: all of this, right, But it's like the quotes I 958 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:39,600 Speaker 2: have from him are kind of like Fauci told someone 959 00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:42,479 Speaker 2: from Act Up, the more you're demonstrating, the more money 960 00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:43,640 Speaker 2: I'm going to get to work with. 961 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah. 962 00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,960 Speaker 3: I mean that, right, It's like you have This is 963 00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,480 Speaker 3: the I think the thing that people miss is like 964 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 3: and back to the calling in is like those folks 965 00:51:56,160 --> 00:52:00,239 Speaker 3: in power you are, they are your targets. And if 966 00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:05,800 Speaker 3: they are amenable targets like meaning if they're not like massive. 967 00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,359 Speaker 3: If Fauci had been a psychotic homophobe, right, I don't 968 00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 3: think they would have gotten that funding. Right, his job 969 00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 3: would have been to deny that funding. So it matters 970 00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:19,440 Speaker 3: who your targets are, even though they should still be 971 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:20,239 Speaker 3: your targets. 972 00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:21,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. 973 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,879 Speaker 2: I think it's funny. Maybe even last week or something 974 00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:27,919 Speaker 2: brought up This a thing I think about all the time, 975 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,080 Speaker 2: Liz rent Free in my head is the art of 976 00:52:30,160 --> 00:52:33,840 Speaker 2: war from a million years ago. One of the rules 977 00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,399 Speaker 2: is don't fully surround your enemy. You have to give 978 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:43,000 Speaker 2: your enemy an out otherwise they fight to the death. Right, 979 00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,759 Speaker 2: you need to have a way in which and I 980 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:48,520 Speaker 2: see this a lot with like other stuff where you're like, 981 00:52:48,880 --> 00:52:51,359 Speaker 2: if I'm trying to convince someone to stop being transphobic, 982 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:54,080 Speaker 2: my goal is to stop them from being transphobic and 983 00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:56,279 Speaker 2: not to just yell at them forever. 984 00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,399 Speaker 1: Like you know, my goal is to have them out 985 00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:00,799 Speaker 1: for them. 986 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. You know, whenever people are like, ah, this 987 00:53:04,760 --> 00:53:06,960 Speaker 2: person used to be a transphobe, like that rules they 988 00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,799 Speaker 2: used to be. That's great, that's progress. You know, I 989 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:11,440 Speaker 2: used to be a transphobe. I grew up in the 990 00:53:11,520 --> 00:53:13,400 Speaker 2: nineties and I was afraid of myself, Like what do 991 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:13,800 Speaker 2: you want? 992 00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:14,239 Speaker 1: You know? 993 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:16,040 Speaker 3: No, And I think that's the biggest critique of like 994 00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:17,960 Speaker 3: left movements that every a lot of people have, which 995 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,360 Speaker 3: is there's not enough on ramps. There's not enough again 996 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:22,920 Speaker 3: the calling in and like it's not I think, you know, 997 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,280 Speaker 3: Michael Albert used to say, you know who's who wrote 998 00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,040 Speaker 3: like what is it para con participatory economics? He's like 999 00:53:30,040 --> 00:53:33,720 Speaker 3: a yeah, movement economist about like our movements aren't sticky enough, 1000 00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,520 Speaker 3: you know, like they you should want to be involved 1001 00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:40,920 Speaker 3: in them and rather than feeling just repelled by them 1002 00:53:41,000 --> 00:53:43,879 Speaker 3: or like they're totally antagonizing, and that's not to say 1003 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:45,080 Speaker 3: you shouldn't be militant. 1004 00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:46,680 Speaker 1: Those two things are very different. 1005 00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 3: No, totally. 1006 00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,239 Speaker 2: And it's actually one of the things that it's not 1007 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:51,600 Speaker 2: too much in the script, but one of the things 1008 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,040 Speaker 2: I read a bunch of times about act UP is 1009 00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,719 Speaker 2: that one of the ways in which people wanted to 1010 00:53:56,760 --> 00:54:00,120 Speaker 2: be part of it was that it was also a 1011 00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:02,560 Speaker 2: cultural thing that you go and become part of, and 1012 00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:04,920 Speaker 2: you are part of something and like and it's kind 1013 00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:08,000 Speaker 2: of ironic and interesting, like everyone's hooking up right right, 1014 00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:11,839 Speaker 2: you know, and everyone's like maybe yeah, hopefully yeah, I mean, 1015 00:54:11,960 --> 00:54:13,799 Speaker 2: or you know, they're in conditions where they don't care 1016 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,640 Speaker 2: anymore or whatever, you know, Like, but it's like, you know, 1017 00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 2: they're creating an entire culture and like something that's like 1018 00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:27,120 Speaker 2: worth being part of. And all of their work and 1019 00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,880 Speaker 2: like this work pressuring about AIDS research. This leads directly 1020 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,160 Speaker 2: to the development of proteas inhibitors that are now taken 1021 00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:35,200 Speaker 2: by millions of people worldwide. I think it's like twenty 1022 00:54:35,239 --> 00:54:38,520 Speaker 2: million people worldwide take this are Wow, it's not every 1023 00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,680 Speaker 2: day that you can save millions of lives. And when 1024 00:54:41,680 --> 00:54:44,440 Speaker 2: we come back on Wednesday, we're going to talk about 1025 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:47,160 Speaker 2: a whole lot more of the specifics about all the 1026 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,759 Speaker 2: cool shit they did, how they took on the Catholic Church, 1027 00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,800 Speaker 2: how they reinvented political art, how they developed methods of 1028 00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,360 Speaker 2: fighting burnout. I know that's not like a big sexy topic, 1029 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:58,520 Speaker 2: but it is to me. And how they change the 1030 00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:01,520 Speaker 2: way that harm reduction works in this kind. But that's 1031 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,600 Speaker 2: on Wednesday. There's no way you can look it up. Now, 1032 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:05,480 Speaker 2: that's huge. 1033 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:06,960 Speaker 1: I'm excited for Wednesday because. 1034 00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,480 Speaker 2: No one else has ever covered this story whatever anyway. 1035 00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,080 Speaker 2: But if people want to know more about what you do, 1036 00:55:14,960 --> 00:55:17,600 Speaker 2: how can they do that me all? 1037 00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:22,440 Speaker 3: You can find me on all podcasts, apps and YouTube 1038 00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:28,680 Speaker 3: and twitch, Habituation room at Franny Feo on YouTube and Twitch. 1039 00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:32,560 Speaker 3: My podcast is weekly. It's a news comedy and everything 1040 00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:36,120 Speaker 3: in between. And there's lots of bonus episodes, so yeah, 1041 00:55:36,120 --> 00:55:36,600 Speaker 3: I get at that. 1042 00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:42,799 Speaker 2: Hell yeah. Cool Zone Media has new podcasts out that 1043 00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 2: you've probably already heard. Because if you haven't heard sixteenth 1044 00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,680 Speaker 2: Minute of Fame, I don't. I live under a rock 1045 00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:52,719 Speaker 2: and I've heard of it, and I've even heard of 1046 00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:56,640 Speaker 2: some of the topics that covers. But you can listen 1047 00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:58,880 Speaker 2: to sixteenth minute of Fame. It is about all the 1048 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:00,920 Speaker 2: crazy memes that happen on the Internet and like what 1049 00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:03,200 Speaker 2: happens after the fifteen minutes of Famer up. But since 1050 00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,919 Speaker 2: it's a Jamie Loftis production, it's about that the same 1051 00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:07,600 Speaker 2: way that the book Raw Dog is about the history 1052 00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:09,279 Speaker 2: of hot dogs and what hot dogs taste the best, 1053 00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:11,080 Speaker 2: which is to say, it's about an awful lot more 1054 00:56:11,120 --> 00:56:14,319 Speaker 2: than that, and it's like super interesting. Even if I 1055 00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,960 Speaker 2: like the book Raw Dog and I'm a vegan, that's 1056 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:21,560 Speaker 2: my endorsement, and so you can listen to that podcast. 1057 00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:24,719 Speaker 2: I have a book that is currently kickstarting, is a 1058 00:56:24,719 --> 00:56:26,680 Speaker 2: fiction book as a young adult book. It is called 1059 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:29,000 Speaker 2: The Sapling Cage. And if you're listening to this in 1060 00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,560 Speaker 2: the future, it's not currently kickstarting, it's kickstarted. But I 1061 00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:36,319 Speaker 2: know it was successful because we met our funding goal 1062 00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:39,560 Speaker 2: within an hour, and within the first day we hit 1063 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 2: three times our funding goal, So it clearly people like it. 1064 00:56:44,760 --> 00:56:47,440 Speaker 2: They some of them have read it even and you 1065 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,200 Speaker 2: could too, could go read it by backing it on 1066 00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,319 Speaker 2: Kickstarter or getting from the library or whatever method you 1067 00:56:54,480 --> 00:56:58,560 Speaker 2: like to use to acquire books. And that's what I 1068 00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:03,719 Speaker 2: gote on Wednesday. 1069 00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:08,960 Speaker 1: Cool people who did cool Stuff is a production of 1070 00:57:09,040 --> 00:57:11,279 Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and. 1071 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:15,280 Speaker 2: Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check. 1072 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,760 Speaker 1: Us out on iHeartRadio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 1073 00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:19,760 Speaker 1: get your podcasts.