1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,559 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 2: All of our hopes dashed last night when we learn 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:14,079 Speaker 2: a guy has been taken in for detainment in the 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie case. We learned that the hostage unit is 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:21,960 Speaker 2: on standby less than a mile away. That means the 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 2: hostage is nearby, right for our hopes to be dashed 7 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 2: when we wake up this morning and find out that 8 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 2: guy was released. He allegedly had nothing to do with 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:40,000 Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie's disappearance. Also, as we go to air right now, 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 2: another missive has been received. 11 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: By t m Z thirty mile zone. 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 2: This time the missive isn't the rat. They want to 13 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: rat out the rat. They are stating they can give 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,760 Speaker 2: the name of the per for one bitcoin to a 15 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:11,880 Speaker 2: bitcoin wallet. What is the bitcoin worth? Sixty six thousand dollars. 16 00:01:13,800 --> 00:01:16,840 Speaker 2: Also at this hour, we learned that the FBI is 17 00:01:17,040 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 2: combing the road side and they are in three locations Camble, 18 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,839 Speaker 2: they are in near. 19 00:01:26,720 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: They are near Cello Tulsa north Ridge Estrata. 20 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: Those four places, not three, four all the Catalina foothills 21 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: and they are looking along the roadside. Why was something 22 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 2: tossed out of a car? A cell phone, a camera? 23 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: That camera that was taken off Nancy Guthrie's front porch. 24 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 2: What are they looking for? In addition to combing the 25 00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: Catalina Foothills near the roadside, the FBI has launched a 26 00:01:55,840 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 2: new search near Nancy Guthrie's home in the Catalina Foothills 27 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 2: north of Tucson. Good evening, I mean to see Grace. 28 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:07,720 Speaker 2: This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for 29 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:11,040 Speaker 2: being with us. Dave mac joining me, Crime Stories investigative 30 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:13,080 Speaker 2: reporter Dave. I'm going to get to the searches that 31 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: are going on right now in the foothills of Catalina first, 32 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,119 Speaker 2: then we'll go through what happened last night. I see, 33 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:26,079 Speaker 2: I've seen video footage of the FBI, and I believe 34 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 2: local law enforcement elsewhere combing the road sides. 35 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: Where are they They. 36 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 3: Are in the Catalina Foothills, just north of Tucson, Nancy. 37 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 3: And by the way, they're not just in one location. 38 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:45,480 Speaker 3: They have spread hundreds okay plural hundreds of FBI and 39 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 3: Sheriff's deputies are all over the area. They're searching roads, 40 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 3: back roads, and they're not isolated to one specific area. 41 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 3: They're covering all of it and they're looking specifically for 42 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 3: evidence that could have been taught from a vehicle going 43 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 3: down the road, maybe a road that doesn't get a 44 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 3: lot of traffic in the foothills, and they are looking. 45 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:08,679 Speaker 3: They're going, you know what, there's so many people out there. 46 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 3: They're asking anybody driving in those areas to be extra cautious. 47 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 3: They're even warning media. I say they it's the FBI. 48 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,200 Speaker 3: The FBI Phoenix office has taken to x to point 49 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 3: out there are so many officials that are actually searching 50 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 3: this area. Be careful, get out of the way. They're 51 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:30,679 Speaker 3: on foot looking for evidence. 52 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 2: Dancy Josh Colsrude joining us from this jurisdiction in Arizona, 53 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: veteran criminal defense attorney, former federal prosecutor, and founder of 54 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: the Colesrood Law Offices. Josh, exactly where would the Catalina 55 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: Foothills be for those that are not familiar with Arizona. 56 00:03:46,680 --> 00:03:51,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, the Catalina Foothills are just outside of Tucson. It's 57 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:54,600 Speaker 4: an affluent area. You know, I'm from Phoenix. We kind 58 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 4: of look at the Catalina Foothills as the Scottsdale of 59 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 4: the Tucson area. It's very nice, in a fairly large retirement. 60 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,320 Speaker 2: Community and as Dave Max said, but it's all along 61 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 2: the roadways. 62 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: So what are they looking for? 63 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 2: Brian Fitzgibbons joining us Director Operations USPA Nationwide Security, their 64 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 2: specialty locating missing people at USPA security dot Com. Brian, 65 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 2: I think they're looking for something thrown out of a 66 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: window and is this desperate maybe or maybe they got 67 00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 2: a tip. 68 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:36,000 Speaker 1: The number of tips has swollen. 69 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,559 Speaker 2: There's a surge of tips after Savannah Guthrie's last plea 70 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 2: for the public's help. Did somebody call in and say, hey, 71 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: I saw a guy throw what looked to be a 72 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:47,279 Speaker 2: cell phone out of. 73 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: A car on that night. But what could they be 74 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: looking for? Brian? 75 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 2: And what does this mean that they're literally beating the bushes? 76 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, bingo. There are two reasons that Larenforsman would be 77 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 5: out there, and the first one you highlighted both of them. 78 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:07,279 Speaker 5: The first one is, hey, they got a tip. Someone 79 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 5: in Tucson said, hey, I saw a suspicious vehicle parked 80 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 5: alongside of the road. Maybe there was a swap that 81 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 5: took place. A second vehicle came in, I saw something 82 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,720 Speaker 5: and we want to go inspect that area and law 83 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 5: enforcements out there following up on that tip. The second 84 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 5: reason is exactly what you said. Very often in criminal 85 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 5: activity they're gonna dump, you know, regardless of what crime 86 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 5: it is, they're gonna dump that clothing or disguise, so 87 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 5: it's not in a vehicle with them. So there's a 88 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 5: very good chance that this is law enforcement doing exactly 89 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 5: what they told us they're doing, which is all the 90 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,400 Speaker 5: blocking and tackling to do this the right way, and 91 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 5: that's going to include covering those major roadways avenues of 92 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 5: egress away from Miss Gustries house to see if there's 93 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 5: anything discarded along the road that now matches that video 94 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 5: we have from the crime scene. 95 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 2: And Brianus Gibbons, you and I covered and investigated ourselves 96 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:17,000 Speaker 2: the Delphi double murders of Abby and Libby, and if 97 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,560 Speaker 2: you will recall, it came out in court and it 98 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:24,200 Speaker 2: was really heartbreaking that a tip had been taken down 99 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 2: at the beginning of the investigation, and that tip had 100 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 2: been translated incorrectly, and I believe that they reversed Richard Allen. 101 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 1: Or they reversed the name of the street. 102 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,280 Speaker 2: So all of this time when people were searching and 103 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 2: so much was happening trying to solve the case. It 104 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 2: was right under their noses, but the tip got screwed 105 00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:55,000 Speaker 2: up and overlooked. There's so many citizen tips I always use. 106 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 2: The Gabby Patito case is a great example of citizens 107 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 2: Leuthe was looking for Gabby Patito in her white Ford transit. 108 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 1: We now know that she and Brian Laundry. 109 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: Had been and what is called dispersed camping way way 110 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,679 Speaker 2: out in the wilderness, no porta potty, hook cups, no lights, 111 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: no cell phone range. And there was a citizen who 112 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: had been following the story and they had the handle 113 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 2: red blue and methane, as I recall, and they spotted 114 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 2: Gabby Potito's white Ford transit and out of the blue 115 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere, they go, Hey, that could 116 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 2: be Gabby's Ford transit. They called it in Brian and 117 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:44,640 Speaker 2: law enforcement went out there. And if it had not 118 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: been for that citizen sleuth, we would never have found 119 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 2: Gabby Potito's remains, and her parents would be wondering to 120 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: this day what happened to Gabby. The outcome wasn't good, 121 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 2: but they know they have the knowledge of what happened 122 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: to Gabby. So did you know, Brian Fitzgibbons, that in 123 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: the last twenty four hours, there have been four thousand 124 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 2: called tips called in. Before that, there had only been 125 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 2: eighteen hundred since Feb one. But once this video was released, 126 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 2: let's play it again, Control room, please, this is what 127 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: is generating the calls and the tips. This and I 128 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 2: want to see his face as best as we can, 129 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:40,719 Speaker 2: that balaklava, that ski mask that he is wearing. This guy, 130 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: this guy, if I could just get my hands on him. So, 131 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 2: Brian Fitzgibbons, you believe repeat what you think is the 132 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:54,640 Speaker 2: reason they're out beating the bushes by the side of 133 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: the road. 134 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 5: Yeah, first and foremost. Right as I said before, they're 135 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 5: doing everything they said. Law enforcement's doing everything they said 136 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 5: they would do, which is cover every base. And they're 137 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 5: gonna they're gonna search those avenues of egress away from 138 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 5: missus Guthrie's house. Uh, where you know this perpetrator, this 139 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 5: suspect who. 140 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 6: Was at the door very well could have discarded uh 141 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 6: some of that equipment or some of that clothing, uh 142 00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 6: to disguise his appearance after uh leaving the scene. 143 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 5: So that's number one. I think that's just part of 144 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 5: the blocking and tackling. 145 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,880 Speaker 2: Hey, I want to follow up on that, Fitzgibbons, that's 146 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 2: a really good thought. 147 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: Cole's rude. Let me tell you about a case I had. 148 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 2: It was the first bank robbery I ever had, and 149 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 2: the guy did just that. He came into the bank 150 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 2: in a disguise. He was wearing a double breasted suit, dress, 151 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 2: can't remember his shoes, hat, wig, aviator, darkened aviator, glasses, 152 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:01,240 Speaker 2: fake mustache, beard. He left with the and he had 153 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:04,079 Speaker 2: as I called it, a breakaway suit. He had based 154 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 2: it up the back of it. We didn't have DNA. 155 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 2: Yanked it off, took off the hat, took off the mustache, 156 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 2: the whole wig, the whole thing, throw it down underneath. 157 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: He was wearing a short sleeved shirt, a pair of shorts, 158 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 2: athletic socks up to the knee. He got on a 159 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 2: bicycle that was part beside the bike, part beside the bank. 160 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: Drove off on the bicycle and got away. He drove right. 161 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:35,160 Speaker 2: Past all of the ambulances and the police that were 162 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 2: racing to the scene, sirens blazing, rode right by them 163 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 2: in a different outfit. Now look at this guy, Coles rude. 164 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 2: He's clearly to me, it's clear he has on layers, 165 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: layers he's about to bust out of the pants and 166 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 2: the jacket. Think that could be why. 167 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 4: Well, he's certainly being overly cautious by wearing the multiple 168 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 4: layers to prevent hair and DNA touch DNA from being 169 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 4: left at the crime scene. Now, I know, I look 170 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 4: at this from a different lens, Nancy. You know, before 171 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 4: we had this video, you know, you had you know, 172 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 4: the majority of the commentators saying that, you know, this 173 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 4: looked like a professional hit job because of the success 174 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 4: so far with not being able to identify who did this. Now, 175 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 4: what if you know they this person here is doing 176 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 4: this for our benefit to mislead us into thinking that 177 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 4: it's somebody that it's not, or that it's a type 178 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 4: of operation that it wasn't. So, you know, I'm kind 179 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 4: of taking this with a grain of salt right now 180 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 4: until we have some additional evidence to kind of lead 181 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 4: us on the way. 182 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,839 Speaker 2: You're giving them a lot of credit when you said 183 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: you can't just drop a bomb like that calls rude 184 00:11:56,600 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 2: and not expect me to cross examine. 185 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: What do you mean that the guy on the porch. 186 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 2: Is trying to mislead us to make us think it's 187 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: something it's not. It's a kidnap of eighty four year 188 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: old Nancy Guthrie. And he's such a bumbling idgit that 189 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: he tried to cover up the door cam with foliage, 190 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: which is a real dichotomy with whoever wrote the ransom note, 191 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,600 Speaker 2: which was very well written. 192 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:22,200 Speaker 1: But what do you mean he's trying to make us 193 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: think it's something it's not. We already know what it is. 194 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: It's kidnapp. 195 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 4: Well, I mean, there's kidnapping that is a dumb kidnapping 196 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 4: where people get caught, and then there's a professional kidnapping 197 00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:36,640 Speaker 4: where people don't get caught. Now, everything except for the 198 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 4: video has been done on a professional level, so this 199 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 4: video isn't congruent with the other things that had happened. 200 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 4: I mean, this eighty four year old was kidnapped, and 201 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 4: there's a national manhunt for the people or person involved, 202 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 4: and we, at least as far as the public is concerned, 203 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 4: know almost virtually nothing about what's going on, including finding Nancy. 204 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 4: So what I'm trying to say is, you know, we 205 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 4: don't know yet to attribute a motive. We don't know 206 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 4: yet if this is professional or not. But if somebody 207 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 4: later on a month ago a month from now said 208 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,120 Speaker 4: that this was staged to you know, mislead us in 209 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:16,719 Speaker 4: our investigation. I wouldn't necessarily be surprised. 210 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,240 Speaker 2: Okay, now I see what you're saying, like make us 211 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 2: think it's a kidnap for ransom when really it's a 212 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,599 Speaker 2: murder in order to get her inheritance. 213 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 1: Something that's just a theory of miss direction. 214 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 2: To follow up and give an example of what you're 215 00:13:32,040 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: stating crime stories with Nancy Grace, A lot's happening right now. 216 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,560 Speaker 2: We now know that the FBI and local law enforcement 217 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: is trying to identify the clothing, the backpack, the shoes, 218 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 2: the battle claw of the ski mask, the gun. 219 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,000 Speaker 1: You name it very quick. 220 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 2: Dave Matt tell us about yet a third missive, this 221 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 2: one to TMZ that has gone down literally in the 222 00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 2: last hours. 223 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 1: It has Nancy. 224 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:17,840 Speaker 3: The shocking reality is that earlier today TMZ got another email. Now, 225 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: this one is not from the actual kidnappers. This one 226 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:28,120 Speaker 3: is from a rat promising to rat out the kidnappers 227 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 3: in exchange for one bitcoin. Now they will name who 228 00:14:33,880 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 3: the kidnapper is. And by the way, he's not saying 229 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 3: this person doesn't say plural. It's saying I will name 230 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 3: the kidnapper, one person singular in exchange for one Bitcoin 231 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,520 Speaker 3: that costs about sixty six thousand dollars. 232 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 5: That's the offer. 233 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 3: It's not the kidnapper, it is somebody who knows the 234 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 3: kidnapper offering to rat them out. 235 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 5: For the money. 236 00:14:54,280 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 2: Okay, Straight out to Chris McDonough joining us to write 237 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 2: for the Cold Case Foundation for Morehamma. Side to detective 238 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 2: he's worked Oceanside, California. He's worked over three hundred homicides 239 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: in a twenty five year career. That's his expertise and 240 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 2: he is the star of the interview room on YouTube. 241 00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: What do you make of a rat ratting out a rat? 242 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 2: Can he be believed? And does nobody understand Bitcoin can 243 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 2: be traced? 244 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 1: You put that wallet up there, throwing one hundred dollars 245 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: the minute it is transferred out. Bam. 246 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,640 Speaker 2: The irs can do it, the DOJ can do it, 247 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 2: the FBI can do it unless they move the money 248 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: to a foreign country that has low or no bitcoin regulation. 249 00:15:42,760 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 2: In other words, there's nothing for us to subpoena. There's 250 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 2: nothing there because there's no regulation. We can get him. 251 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, And remember that guy that used to send 252 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 7: the hey you're the heir of a Nigerian princh and 253 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,080 Speaker 7: for a million dollars, we'll hold it that this is 254 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,960 Speaker 7: just a bunch of noise that's going on around this thing. 255 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 7: What's what's really important here is right refocus back at 256 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 7: the house, and that's what the investigators are doing and 257 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 7: what you were talking about a little bit ago, Nancy, 258 00:16:16,000 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 7: on this search that's going on here. If they do 259 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 7: find a piece of clothing, one evidentiary tap or path 260 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 7: that they can go down is they can look at 261 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 7: that clothing and there's what they call an r N 262 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 7: number on the tags. If the clothing was manufactured overseas, 263 00:16:34,280 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 7: they're going to be able to get right down to 264 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 7: the cash register where that clothing was purchased. 265 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:44,360 Speaker 2: Okay, you got me at our N number, start right there, yeap. 266 00:16:45,200 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 7: So on our end number. And I actually had a 267 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 7: homicide where we pulled the r N number and we 268 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 7: found where the suspect could purchases clothing. What it is, 269 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 7: it's a Federal Trade Commission number and it's mandatory for 270 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 7: any kind of port clothing from overseas, and every piece 271 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 7: of clothing has it. Let's say, if it was made 272 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,400 Speaker 7: you know in Indonesia or something to that effect. Well, 273 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 7: with that number, the Federal Trade Commission tracks the inventory 274 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,240 Speaker 7: as it comes into the United States, and then the 275 00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 7: distribution points as to where that particular clothing went, including backpacks. 276 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:27,960 Speaker 2: Well, mcdona, you're brilliant. I just plugged in r IN number. 277 00:17:28,000 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 2: You can actually search the r IN database. There is 278 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 2: a an r IN data base. Wow, you had a 279 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 2: case and you used the r IN database. 280 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 7: How Yeah, this well, the suspect pulled off his jacket 281 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 7: and he left it in a drainage ditch behind the 282 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 7: murder scene, and so we pulled that number, uh, through 283 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 7: the Federal Trade Commission, and we were able to find out, 284 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 7: you know, when the when the item was manufactured, who 285 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 7: the distributed, who the distributors were, and then we traced 286 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,000 Speaker 7: it to a store in a mall nearby, and we 287 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 7: were able to go to that mall and pull the 288 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 7: h the purchase receipt of all of those types of jackets, 289 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 7: and then we had the credit card numbers, and we 290 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 7: just kind of, you know, through elimination, ended up with 291 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 7: our guide. 292 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:22,639 Speaker 1: I didn't want to interrupt you. 293 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,560 Speaker 2: I understand it that far, but how did you get 294 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 2: it into evidence? 295 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 5: Uh? 296 00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 7: Easily. We just told showed him the chain of custody. 297 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 7: You know how we did it, and and the DA was. 298 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 2: Able to christ did you get him? Yes? 299 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 7: He actually it's yes, first degree murder during the commission 300 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 7: of a robbery. Yeah, and the victim was David Tabor. Yeah, 301 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 7: it was three. It was three nationals by the way, 302 00:18:53,040 --> 00:18:54,320 Speaker 7: from over the. 303 00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 1: Border or in number. 304 00:18:57,480 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 2: That's amazing in our to try and figure out. And 305 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 2: I guarantee you you did this as local law enforcement. 306 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 2: No telling what the FBI can do. 307 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: Because let me just throw this at you. Everyone was wondering. 308 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 2: How did they get the images off the front porch. 309 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 2: Let's just let's just drink them in for another moment 310 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 2: because this is a big, huge break. 311 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: Okay, where did they come from? This is how it 312 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: went down. 313 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,160 Speaker 2: And Brian Fitzgibbons jump in if I've got anything wrong 314 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 2: or you too, Cols rude. This is what happened. You 315 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 2: can see up at the top right it says Nest. 316 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,240 Speaker 2: That's Nancy Guthrie's camera system through Nest. 317 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: Nest is part of Google. 318 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:49,359 Speaker 2: We know Nancy did not have a subscription, so the 319 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: video wasn't kept. 320 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: How did we get the video? It was gone well. 321 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 2: Cast cast analysis survey team used all of their efforts 322 00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: and they reached Google and they then mined Google's vast, vast. 323 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,800 Speaker 1: Inventory their data. 324 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 2: I mean, think of Indiana Jones Raiders of the Lost Arc, 325 00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 2: where you find out the arc of the Covenant. That's 326 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 2: the Lost Arc. The arc of the Covenant that holds 327 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:30,680 Speaker 2: the Ten Commandments. 328 00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: Is way, way way at the end of a long, 329 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,160 Speaker 1: long aisle, floor to ceiling in a dustrial box, never 330 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,000 Speaker 1: to be seen again. 331 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: So that's what it's like to go into Google's database 332 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 2: or their archives. 333 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:53,200 Speaker 1: But the FBI did it. They went through all. 334 00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: Of that data and they find Nancy Guthrie's door cam 335 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: and they resurrect this. 336 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: Power to the FEDS. 337 00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: What I'm saying, Chris mcdonnaugh, you saw that case with 338 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,680 Speaker 2: the RN number off a jacket down a dream pipe. 339 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: What can they do? 340 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: Now Here is our sad but earnest effort. Let's see 341 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 2: what our staffers at Crime Stories. 342 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: Came up with. 343 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: We were looking for that very unique ski mask or 344 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 2: since it comes down over the neck of Bola clava, 345 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:39,280 Speaker 2: it's got unique stitching around the eyes. The nose is 346 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:45,199 Speaker 2: not shown, just that hole for the mouth and you 347 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:52,040 Speaker 2: have the vertical ribs gray in color. Walmart, I guarantee 348 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: you somebody somewhere is doing this right now, Let's look 349 00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 2: at the jacket. 350 00:21:57,760 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 1: The jacket has. 351 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 2: A very unique zip down the front. Now remember in 352 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 2: the lighting where the purp actually. 353 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: Is is not true. It's not a true depiction. 354 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,159 Speaker 2: So they're gonna have to figure out was this I'm 355 00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: seeing all sorts of transformations online. 356 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,600 Speaker 1: Is this real? What color was it? 357 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 2: They could probably pick out what size it is. The 358 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: zipper is reflective, so that's what we know about that. 359 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: Again, Walmart, that'd be. 360 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 2: The first place I would look, the local Walmart because 361 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 2: we believe this guy is from Tucson. Why his affinity 362 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: with kg U N and k O L D. Also, 363 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 2: he's a guy that goes to TMZ. Who goes to TMZ. 364 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: There is a very specific group a demographic that reads TMZ, 365 00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: I do who else does? Look at the backpack? What 366 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 2: can we learn from the backpack? And it's crammed to 367 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 2: the brim. He is not going in to take anything out. 368 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,680 Speaker 2: He's not in for a robbery or a burglary. He's 369 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:11,240 Speaker 2: taking something in for Pete's sake. 370 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:12,360 Speaker 1: Let's see the other. 371 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 2: Side, which I find to be very very demonstrative. The 372 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: two light look on either shoulder. You can see the 373 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:29,440 Speaker 2: light reflectors. That's what they're looking for, an adult sized 374 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:34,720 Speaker 2: backpack with these light reflect reflectors, those shoulder patches he's 375 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: got on his chest. They're looking for the ballaklava. They're 376 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,199 Speaker 2: looking for the jacket, they're looking for the backpack. The 377 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 2: gloves at first, that like Boxer's gloves. Is he wearing 378 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: multiple layers? 379 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: That said, we. 380 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 2: Understand that that is being done right now, Okay, what 381 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 2: do you think about that, Fitzgibbons. 382 00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 5: No, you're absolutely right, Nancy, And they're you know, so 383 00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 5: far as analyzing this video even further. They are breaking 384 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:10,199 Speaker 5: apart every single pixel around that mouth and those eyes 385 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 5: on every exposed piece behind that mask. Now, obviously it's 386 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 5: an uphill battle for whatever softwares and whatever abilities the 387 00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 5: FBI has, But they've already surprised us one time with 388 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:29,399 Speaker 5: recovering this video. I wouldn't be surprised if they if 389 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 5: they did again. 390 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 2: Fitz Gibbons is actually joining us from a Saine he 391 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 2: is working so fits. Before you sign off, can I 392 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 2: talk to you about facial recognition because from that video 393 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 2: the FBI can determine, and local law enforcement can do. 394 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 1: This as well. It's not magic, it's not genius. They 395 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:54,760 Speaker 1: can look at this. 396 00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: They can measure the length the height of the stones 397 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 2: in Nancy Guthrie's porch, on our porch when he first 398 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 2: walks in, when he first steps up on that step, 399 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: and they can determine his height, probably down to about 400 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 2: an inch. 401 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: Okay, let's see him walk up the porch. Here we go. 402 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:21,400 Speaker 1: He's got his head down. That's not helpful. 403 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 2: Keep going right there, right there when he was walking 404 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 2: up and held his head up. Also, you can even 405 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,080 Speaker 2: get the size of this guy's shoe when he's stepping 406 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:38,359 Speaker 2: on those tiles. There's one where he steps directly in 407 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: at the beginning of the tile where he can get 408 00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: a shoe size has already been estimated to be a 409 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:47,200 Speaker 2: size twelve. His height has been estimated between five eleven 410 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 2: and six feet. 411 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: Okay. Facial recognition, it's. 412 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 2: Used at air porch, It's used by people that already 413 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 2: have clear to get on to planes. Is used by 414 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: pass quick lines, my global entry. All sorts of facial 415 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:07,959 Speaker 2: recognition is already out there. I mean, look at your 416 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 2: iPhone for Pete's sake. That's facial recognition. So we need 417 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: the distance between his eyes from the inner part of 418 00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 2: the eyes to each other, from the outer part of 419 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 2: the eyes to each other, the length of the nose, 420 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: the width of the face cheek bone to cheekbone, the 421 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 2: link of the. 422 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:31,240 Speaker 1: Face forehead to chin, and the size of the head. 423 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: Brian has gibbons. Can they do it? 424 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,399 Speaker 5: I think they have an uphill battle to identify a 425 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 5: suspects from these images in this video. However, what they 426 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 5: are going to get to and these are things that 427 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 5: you just highlighted, They're going to have these measurements about 428 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 5: the eyes, about the mouth, the height, the shoe size 429 00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 5: that when they do have a suspect, when they're able, 430 00:26:57,040 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 5: they're going to be able to use this video to 431 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:02,879 Speaker 5: confirm that suspect. So it is valuable they're going to 432 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 5: go through this exercise and that exercise will turn out 433 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 5: to be valuable. What we're missing here is ratio's distance 434 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:15,920 Speaker 5: between the eyes eyebrows ten to those You know, these 435 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 5: ratios are going to come together on any software for 436 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,240 Speaker 5: it to actually make that ID, and with that mask, 437 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 5: we're obviously missing this. So we're dependent on all the 438 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 5: other things, body language, height, shoe size, you know, rough weight, 439 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 5: and things like that. 440 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,199 Speaker 1: Joining us now you know her well. 441 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: Janine Driver, body language expert CEO of the Body Language Institute. 442 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 2: She is a New York Times best selling author of 443 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,280 Speaker 2: You Say More Than You Think and. 444 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:49,960 Speaker 1: You Can't Lie to Me. 445 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: She's a host of a podcast, a hit podcast called 446 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 2: in the Driver's Seat with Janine Driver. 447 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 1: Janine, thank you for being with us. So many things 448 00:27:59,680 --> 00:27:59,960 Speaker 1: to add. 449 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: I'd like to get to the guy that was caught 450 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: and released, but right now he's not a player in 451 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: this scenario. I want you to look instead at the guy, 452 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 2: the known perp on Nancy Guthrie's porch. 453 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,359 Speaker 1: What can you tell me? 454 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,520 Speaker 8: All right, Nancy and listener at home, viewer at home. 455 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 8: What the police are looking for, most likely right now 456 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 8: is does this man look familiar to you? The way 457 00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 8: he is moving? We have what's called movement DNA. Look 458 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 8: as he walks out here. If you've ever been in 459 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 8: a grocery store and you're like, wait a minute, is 460 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 8: that my sister, Or in a movie theater and someone 461 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:36,760 Speaker 8: walk by you like, wait a minute, is that my neighbor, 462 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 8: it's we all have movement DNA. 463 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 9: There are about nine billion people on the planet. 464 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 8: There are thirty six billion different ways we can move 465 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 8: our bodies that connect to how we make decisions. This 466 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 8: man when walking, if you look at him and you 467 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 8: think he looks like my neighbor, he looks like my cousin, 468 00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 8: my former presitter. This looks my basketball player that I 469 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 8: used to coach in high school. Telling you you're in 470 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 8: probably picks up on that movement. DNA before someone speaks, 471 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,840 Speaker 8: before we see their face. The fact that we can 472 00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 8: see his body moved despite having a mask is incredibly 473 00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 8: valuable to us. There are thirty six billion different ways 474 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 8: we move our bodies that connect to how we make 475 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 8: decisions and process information. If you have a vibe, look 476 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 8: how he tilted to his left right here when he 477 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 8: walked up the stairs. If you know someone who angles 478 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 8: more to their left when they're standing when they're thinking, 479 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,480 Speaker 8: these are our evaluators. These people tend to stand at 480 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,239 Speaker 8: a diagonals. It's like the scale of justice. These are 481 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 8: the people who like a system. This is most likely 482 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,640 Speaker 8: a man who has created a system before he did this. 483 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 8: So if you're looking at this movement, I have a 484 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 8: funny feeling police have given us this so you can 485 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 8: say I can't put my finger on it, but I 486 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,640 Speaker 8: just feel like some reason this looks like blank. 487 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 9: Who I know? Please call the number Nancy's going to 488 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 9: give you. Please let the police know. No. 489 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 8: Tip is not unvaluable to us at this point. We 490 00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:02,040 Speaker 8: want to get Meancy Guthrie Holmes. So look at the movement. 491 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 8: Pay attention to that slant. Look how he walked down 492 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 8: that step off the porch. Does that ring true to you? 493 00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 9: Think about it. 494 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 8: When I have three sons, when they walk in before 495 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 8: I can even see them, I can hear is that Jack? 496 00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 9: Jack? 497 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 5: Is that you? 498 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 9: Charlie? 499 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 5: Is that you? 500 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 9: Angus? Is that you? 501 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 8: Why the way we move? We have movement DNA. It 502 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 8: is a behavioral fingerprint. Look at this, just like a 503 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 8: fingerprint on our thumb. Does this behavioral fingerprint seem familiar 504 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 8: to you? If it does, and let us know. 505 00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: It's a mean driver or the author of you say 506 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 2: more than you think. I'd also like you to take 507 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 2: a look at the siblings our friend Savannah that I 508 00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 2: worked with at Court TV, her sister Annie and the 509 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,760 Speaker 2: brother Cameron. What do you see? A lot has been 510 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,719 Speaker 2: made of their nonverbal behavior online. 511 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: You're the expert. 512 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 8: Yeah, I think a lot of people are tearing apart Annie, 513 00:30:57,960 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 8: because we're not hearing much from her. And I want 514 00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 8: to express to you how we look at people who 515 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 8: grieve in the movies is not what's happening here. This 516 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 8: has been over a week my mother died. I'm the 517 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 8: matriarchy of my family. I'm the oldest of three. I 518 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 8: didn't lose my pool until literally at her graveside when 519 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 8: they played the song time to Say Goodbye, I collapsed forward. 520 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 8: That was six or seven days after month passed. These people, 521 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 8: this family, the Gout three family, are exhausted. 522 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 9: They're up all night. When we judge. 523 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:31,720 Speaker 8: People's behavior, like we're judging the Gut three kids here right. 524 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,959 Speaker 8: I want you to stop and think, do I have 525 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,479 Speaker 8: a bias because we watched so many movies, Nancy, we 526 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,880 Speaker 8: have a grieving bias. When I weigh in on cases, 527 00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 8: whether it was Judge Kavanaugh versus you know, doctor Ford 528 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 8: back in the day, I stop and say, first, Jeanine, 529 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 8: what's my bias? My bias is I had I was 530 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 8: blessed as a kid, and I didn't remember all the 531 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 8: details like doctor Ford didn't remember all the details. I'm 532 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,720 Speaker 8: a mother of three sons. I don't want my three 533 00:31:57,720 --> 00:31:59,680 Speaker 8: sons being found guilty before we even. 534 00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 9: Hear what the the person has to say. So I 535 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 9: have a bias here. 536 00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,800 Speaker 8: When we can name our bias, we can make smarter decisions. 537 00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 8: So for the people who are giving the gut three 538 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 8: kids a hard time, especially Annie, just stop. 539 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,760 Speaker 9: Do you have a quiet or sibling. You're someone else. 540 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 2: You see as a body language expert. What are you 541 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,480 Speaker 2: reading from their behavior? This is what you do for 542 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 2: a living. You're a New York Times bestseller about this? 543 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 8: Look at Savannah right. I've been interviewed by her. She's 544 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 8: a good friend of yours. She normally soon stands up 545 00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 8: and sits up straight. She's very poised. She here is 546 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 8: leaning forward. We often see this with the family member 547 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 8: that feels like I'm responsible to save the situation. 548 00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 9: When we put our. 549 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,560 Speaker 8: Face forward like this, it says I am paying attention 550 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 8: to you, pay attention to me. I'm hearing what you 551 00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 8: have to say when we show our whole body. Now 552 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 8: I'm being pulled back. What Savannah is saying is I'm 553 00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 8: taking this seriously. 554 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 9: Listen to me. She uses very special language. 555 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 8: Her body language is congruent with someone who is present. 556 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:02,520 Speaker 8: Her siblings, Karen and Annie are also They're grieving their 557 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 8: body language. Annie's looking down emotional look at you see 558 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 8: sadness in the chin Sandnus is one of the hardest 559 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 8: emotions to fake. We see it on Annie's face right here. 560 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 8: What we don't see if they were involved in any 561 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,320 Speaker 8: way and knew what was going on, would be contempt, Nancy, 562 00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,000 Speaker 8: So I appreciate you calling me back to body language. 563 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 8: Contempt is this It's one smirk on one side of 564 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 8: our fifth Bernie made all fit it. We had a 565 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 8: former vice president of the United States doing this move 566 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,360 Speaker 8: a lot. This is moral superiority. There's seven emotions that 567 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 8: we all have. Seven I did the wrong number, and happiness, 568 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 8: sadness for your surprise, anger, contempt, and discuss. Contempt shows 569 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 8: up when someone is keeping a secret and they know 570 00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:44,520 Speaker 8: something they're not revealing. Every single person that we have 571 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 8: talked about with you, Nancy, over the years that said 572 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 8: they had a missing loved one that then ended up 573 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 8: being arrested for killing that person. 574 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 9: Every single one from Scott. 575 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 8: Peterson to Chris Watts to you name the Jody Arius 576 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,160 Speaker 8: leaked contempt. In these moments. We're not seeing it here, 577 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 8: and we're not seeing smiling. Well, look at Chris wats 578 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 8: when you did it hit his big, huge video when 579 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 8: my wife and kids are missing, Shanina and Celesti Bella. 580 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 9: He's smiling. Where was fear and sadness? Here? We have 581 00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 9: fear and sadness. This is Greek. 582 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 8: This is a family who is exhausted holding it together 583 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 8: the best they can. 584 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. 585 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,400 Speaker 2: So we've got searches going down right now on the 586 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 2: side of the road. We have searches going down around 587 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie's neighborhood right now as we go to air. 588 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,240 Speaker 2: The good news is Dave mac I did not see 589 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:47,600 Speaker 2: any cadaver dogs. 590 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 3: No, they're actually looking for evidence they believe was tossed out. Now, 591 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,720 Speaker 3: you mentioned earlier about how you had a case where 592 00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,959 Speaker 3: the person wore other clothing and got rid of it. Well, 593 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 3: looked at this video and you can tell those gloves 594 00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 3: he's double wearing gloves, Nancy, those things are so tight. 595 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,360 Speaker 3: Other parts of the clothing looks really tight too. Obviously, 596 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 3: it seems obvious he could possibly have been tossing his stuff. 597 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,000 Speaker 3: But you know what, Nancy, they're not just in the 598 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,640 Speaker 3: foothills outside of Nancy Guthrie's house. They are also searching 599 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 3: Rio Rico. I'm talking about the FBI and the Sheriff's deputies. 600 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 3: They're still searching around Rio Rico. Last night where we 601 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,240 Speaker 3: had the person pulled over, we had them searching houses, 602 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 3: his garage. Well, they're still searching down there, Nancy. We 603 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 3: can't leave that out. They're searching roadways, and that's. 604 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,840 Speaker 2: Telling me something, Dave Mac Chris McDonough, that's another search 605 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 2: happening right now. That tells me that's part of the 606 00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,800 Speaker 2: reason they pulled that guy over. Let's take a listen 607 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,719 Speaker 2: to the guy pulled over last night. 608 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 8: They helped me against one will remember rising some two 609 00:35:57,480 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 8: hours later. 610 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 2: Okay, you know that is Carlos Palezuela's He is a 611 00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 2: delivery driver for GLS and door Dash. 612 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: That tells me something. 613 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 2: Chris mcdonna, it's not just him, it's the location. That 614 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,359 Speaker 2: location they're out there searching. They were interested in him 615 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,480 Speaker 2: because he loosely fit the description and the location. 616 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:31,440 Speaker 6: Yeah. 617 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 7: Absolutely, and that may give us an insight into the 618 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 7: FEDS may have some type of digital footprint somewhere. Uh, 619 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,000 Speaker 7: and they're chasing that footprint. But what it also adds 620 00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 7: is there's a vehicle in play here. And when you 621 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 7: see the suspect walking up to the porch, he comes 622 00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 7: from the area of the driveway when he first walks up, 623 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:54,000 Speaker 7: and his head's down, so everything's about identity right there 624 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:56,040 Speaker 7: for him. But he's coming from the area of the 625 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,359 Speaker 7: driveway when what looks to the left, he's actually looking 626 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 7: through the gloe as portion of the exterior door to 627 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 7: see if there's anybody or anything inside that he can see. 628 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:10,839 Speaker 7: And so this guy is not very sophisticated. If if 629 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 7: you look at his gun holster, that's a revolver holster, 630 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:19,360 Speaker 7: it's not a semi automatic holster, So that also tells 631 00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 7: us he's not very sophisticated around guns. And the fact 632 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 7: that he's wearing multiple layers of gloves that tells us 633 00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 7: that's going to be very difficult to get your finger 634 00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 7: through the trigger area of that gun. So it's almost 635 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 7: like he just kind of put this kit on, you know, 636 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,400 Speaker 7: as if he, you know, wasn't quite familiar with guns, 637 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 7: et cetera, et cetera. So I can see I can 638 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 7: see the Feds chasing that down too. 639 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 1: Yes, not sophisticated at all. 640 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 2: I've never seen anybody carry a gun like that, and 641 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,600 Speaker 2: quickly back out to Josh Coles, rude, did you hear 642 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 2: Palezuela's whining He didn't get his mirandaized for two hours, 643 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,600 Speaker 2: he wasn't arrested, But well, what does he want? 644 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 4: Yeah, Carlos ritz Yep, Carlos was detained. He was not arrested. 645 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:12,840 Speaker 4: And when somebody is detained, uh, and they're free to leave, 646 00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:16,879 Speaker 4: like he was told that he was. Miranda warnings are 647 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:21,120 Speaker 4: not required. Now what is required to detain somebody? Uh, 648 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 4: it's reasonable suspicion. That is, you know, one step below 649 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 4: probable cause, which is what police officers need to arrest somebody. Now, 650 00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 4: if the police had probable cause, he would never have 651 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 4: gotten home last night. He would have been arrested and booked. Now, 652 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 4: we don't know why the police officers were talking to him. 653 00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 4: It could have been their suspicion that he was connected 654 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 4: to the ransom notes or to the kidnapping. But until 655 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 4: they give us additional information, we're just going to have 656 00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:51,120 Speaker 4: to guess. 657 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 1: If you know or. 658 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 2: Think you know anything about Nancy Guthrie's disappearance, please dial 659 00:38:57,280 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 2: two five five four, or if you wish to remain 660 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,279 Speaker 2: anonymous five two zero eight eight two seven four six 661 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 2: three Nancy Gray signing off for tonight Good Night Friend,