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Speaker 1: Hey, what's up everybody.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jamel Hill and welcome to politics and I heart

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Speaker 2: podcasts and unbothered production.

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Speaker 1: Time to get spolitical.

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Speaker 2: I've often given this sports world credit for sometimes being

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Speaker 2: more progressive than the rest of society. For example, Jackie

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Speaker 2: Robinson integrated baseball in nineteen forty seven. That was seven

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Speaker 2: years before the Supreme Courts Brown versus the Board of

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Speaker 2: Education decision well that racial segregation in public schools was unconstitutional,

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Speaker 2: and it was almost twenty years before the nineteen sixty

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Speaker 2: four Civil Rights Act, which prohibited discrimination based on race, sex,

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Speaker 2: and religion. And apparently sports has now gotten so far

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Speaker 2: ahead of where the rest of us are that they

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Speaker 2: can create a universe where any mention of racism, sexism,

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Speaker 2: anti semitism, discrimination, and homophobia simply don't exist.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: FIFA's Club World Cup just kicked off here in America.

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Speaker 2: Eleven am Ya and cities will host Club World Cup

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Speaker 2: matches and soccer fans will certainly get to see some

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Speaker 2: terrific matches and dynamic players. But what soccer fans won't

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Speaker 2: see in American venues are ads like this.

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Speaker 3: FIFA has a strict approach to all forms of discrimination.

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Speaker 3: Football breaks down barriers and empowers us to overcome challenges.

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Speaker 3: FIFA believes everyone has the right to inherit a world

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Speaker 3: free from prejudice. The discrimination in any form, race, gender

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Speaker 3: or religion has no place in our game.

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Speaker 2: Unlike previous FIFA competitions, American patrons will not be shown

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Speaker 2: any videos, signs, or messaging that mentioned racism, sexism, anti Semitism,

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Speaker 2: nor will they hear any of FIFA's anti racism protocols,

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Speaker 2: which tells fans that racist cheers won't be tolerated. According

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Speaker 2: to a recent report by The Athletic Now, this is

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Speaker 2: a sharp departure from how things were done at the

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Speaker 2: Men's World Cup in Qatar in twenty twenty two and

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Speaker 2: the Women's World Cup in Australia in twenty twenty three. Now,

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Speaker 2: the Women's World Cup slogans such as Unite for Inclusion

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Speaker 2: and Unite for Indigenous Peoples and Unite for Gender Equality

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Speaker 2: and Unite for Ending Violence against Women or Commonplace, and

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Speaker 2: they appeared on captain's armbands and on advertising boards across

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Speaker 2: the stadium. For years, FIFA has waged anti racism campaigns

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Speaker 2: because there is a bad history there when it comes

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Speaker 2: to soccer and racism, and FIFA President Johnny Infantino has

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Speaker 2: been especially vocal about how the organization done wants to

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Speaker 2: deal with the issue. Just last month, Infantino asked world

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Speaker 2: leaders to join FIFA in fighting racism in their sport,

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Speaker 2: and a few years ago, on the eve of the

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Speaker 2: World Cup in Qatar, Infantino went all Jake Brigands from

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Speaker 2: the movie of Time to Kill.

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Speaker 4: I think for what we Europeans have been doing in

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Speaker 4: the last three thousand years around the world, we should

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Speaker 4: be apologizing for next three thousand years before starting to

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Speaker 4: give moral lessons to people.

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Speaker 1: Today.

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Speaker 5: I feel.

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Speaker 4: Katari today, I feel Arab today, I feel African today,

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Speaker 4: I feel gay today, I feel disabled today, I feel

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Speaker 4: a migrant worker.

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Speaker 2: So if Infantino was feeling all Katari, gay, African and

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Speaker 2: disabled in twenty twenty two, but now FIFA is switching

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Speaker 2: it up in twenty twenty five, why did infant you know,

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Speaker 2: go from sounding like Nina Simone to I don't see color.

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Speaker 2: FIFA hasn't explained why they chose not to continue their

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Speaker 2: anti racism campaign in America for Club World Cup, but

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Speaker 2: I can think of one pretty big reason why FIFA

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Speaker 2: is suddenly backing down.

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Speaker 1: What team is favored?

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Speaker 5: Now, there's such a thing.

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Speaker 2: I mean, do they have a team like so many

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Speaker 2: of these great famous teams, what team seems to be favored?

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Speaker 4: Well on the club one which takes place this year,

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Speaker 4: of course Real Madrid, the Manchester City, Bayern, Munich, the Germans,

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Speaker 4: Pattis Sangerman, the French big ones are always there. And

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Speaker 4: these clubs are multinationals. They have players from all countries.

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Speaker 4: They always seem to be there. They are always there.

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Speaker 4: That great and then next year Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany,

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Speaker 4: Spain to be great. It would be great.

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Speaker 5: Any questions for Johnny us.

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Speaker 4: US, US, US is coming up, US is coming to

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Speaker 4: watch the US some very very good players.

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Speaker 2: That was, of course Donald Trump, who who had Infantino

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Speaker 2: in the Oval office a few months ago to announce

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Speaker 2: a special White House Task Force for the twenty twenty

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Speaker 2: six World Cup, which will jointly be hosted by Canada,

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Speaker 2: Mexico and the United States. And just in case you're

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Speaker 2: a confused, club World Cup taking place right now, in

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Speaker 2: the World Cup taking place next year, two different tournaments. Now,

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Speaker 2: considering that Trump and his administration have gone all in

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Speaker 2: on putting anything not white, male, heterosexual or Christian under attack.

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Speaker 2: Perhaps Infantino decided that just for the Club World Cup,

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Speaker 2: let's just let racism feel a little more at home,

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Speaker 2: since there is clearly widespread support for it in this

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Speaker 2: presidential administration. Now I've long let go of any hope

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Speaker 2: the leagues, teams, and other sports organizations actually care about

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Speaker 2: making any kind of real impact when it comes to

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Speaker 2: social justice. They care about looking racist. They don't care

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Speaker 2: about being a racist. They care about performance and optics. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 2: the players that power their leagues are impacted by the

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Speaker 2: social issue is that they readily abandoned when it's time

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Speaker 2: to take a real stand. Now, surely Infantino isn't oblivious

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Speaker 2: to the fact that the Club World Cup is happening

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Speaker 2: just as isis cosplaying as modern day slave catchers across

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Speaker 2: this country. In fact, Ice is showing up at these

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Speaker 2: Club World Cup matches hoping to nab undocumented soccer fans,

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Speaker 2: and they've even told people they should carry their immigration

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Speaker 2: papers with them if they plan on attending the matches.

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Speaker 2: Freedom papers coming back like Jordan Ware in the Faux five.

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Speaker 2: Now some have suggested that FIFA ship withdrawal next year's

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Speaker 2: World Cup from the United States, but considering the World

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Speaker 2: Cup has been in Gatar and Russia, I'm gonna go

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Speaker 2: out on a limb and say moral compass of a

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Speaker 2: country isn't a high priority for them. Others have encouraged

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Speaker 2: people to boycott the World Cup and the Club World Cup,

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Speaker 2: but I can't say I anticipate there will be any

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Speaker 2: major needle moving in that direction because people love their sports,

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Speaker 2: which is the reason countries who are shaky when it

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Speaker 2: comes to human rights and dictatorships love to use sports

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Speaker 2: as a shield to cover up the ugliness they don't

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Speaker 2: want the world to see. I'm Jamelle Hill, and I

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Speaker 2: approved this message now. In case you don't know, June

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Speaker 2: is Pride Month, and while this is purely a coincidence

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Speaker 2: on my part, my guest is appearing on today's episode

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Speaker 2: or reason that coincides with this important month. She was

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Speaker 2: the WNBA's first openly trans and non binary player, and

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Speaker 2: four years ago she went public with her decision to

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Speaker 2: undergo a procedure removing her breast tissue, also known in

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Speaker 2: the queer community as top surgery.

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Speaker 1: But this was hardly the first.

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Speaker 2: Time in her life that my guest has chartered her

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Speaker 2: own path and was willing to stand ten toes down

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Speaker 2: for her personhood and her beliefs. She was a key

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Speaker 2: voice when WNBA players waged their Breonna Taylor campaign and

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Speaker 2: when players decided to use their platform to help Georgia

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Speaker 2: Senator repend Rafayel Warnut defeat Kelly Leffler, who was part

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Speaker 2: owner of the WNBA's Atlanta Dream.

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Speaker 1: At the time.

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Speaker 2: Now twenty twenty five marks her first year not playing

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Speaker 2: in the WNBA in twelve seasons. Now she's pivoting in

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Speaker 2: a bunch of brand new directions, but still staying true

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Speaker 2: to her voice and who she is. Coming up next

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Speaker 2: on Spolitics, Lesia Clarington, So, lady, I'm going to start

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Speaker 2: this podcast with how I start every episode of politics

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Speaker 2: by asking you name an athlete or a moment that

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Speaker 2: made you love sports.

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Speaker 5: Name or athlete that made me love sports? Or a

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Speaker 5: moment or a moment.

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Speaker 1: It could have been a moment.

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Speaker 5: I mean the first tie I popped on that My

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Speaker 5: mind is just super because I watched her playing growing up.

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Speaker 5: I've talked about it. I love her. I was sitting

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Speaker 5: on the couch with my mom and like high school,

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Speaker 5: just watching her play. I had her jersey, I like, actually,

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Speaker 5: still haven't. My dad found it the other day. I

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Speaker 5: should have waved it and held it up. Yeah, she

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Speaker 5: made me like just love the sport watching her be

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Speaker 5: a point guard out there on the court. Just I

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Speaker 5: aspired to like to be her.

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Speaker 2: Now, were you one of those who when you started playing,

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Speaker 2: you know, basketball, that you if maybe you were taller,

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Speaker 2: you know than your other teammates and other people that

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Speaker 2: you played with.

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Speaker 1: So, like, did you start did you start? Were you

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Speaker 1: always a guard? Basically?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? I was always the guard. I was always Ronnie

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Speaker 5: as hell too, Like I was a hundred and whatever pounds,

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Speaker 5: the skinniest one still has the skinniest rhysthom of probably

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Speaker 5: the entire league. Maybe behind the want of honor, I

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Speaker 5: don't know, shut out, but yeah, I was little. I

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Speaker 5: was tiny, So I was always Fike Styve fighting out there.

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Speaker 2: Now, you had an extensive WNBA career eleven years, I believe.

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Speaker 2: So how did you know or when did you start

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Speaker 2: thinking that it might be time for you to retire?

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Speaker 5: I was gonna ask all the good questions get into

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Speaker 5: my my therapy session notes, put back through my notebook.

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Speaker 5: I mean I knew the last few years that I

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Speaker 5: was getting in the back end of my career just mentally, emotionally, rictually, honestly, really,

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Speaker 5: the fuckery of the industry is what I was starting

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Speaker 5: to be like, Oh, I don't know how much longer

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Speaker 5: I want to put up with this because I love

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Speaker 5: the game of basketball. The game is so here, it's beautiful,

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Speaker 5: Like you have to work with people, with teammates, but

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Speaker 5: at the end of the day, you know, it's like

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Speaker 5: I have one of my career years and then I

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Speaker 5: get cut by Minnesota the next year. So like dealing

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Speaker 5: with that kind of BS, dealing with some ds I

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Speaker 5: dealt with in New York. I was like talking to

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Speaker 5: my therapist, like how much longer am I going to

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Speaker 5: put myself through this volatile industry? And she's a therapist

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Speaker 5: that's not in sports, and she was like, yeah, this

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Speaker 5: is wild, Like this is out of pocket. I'm like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: this is my everyday life. So the last couple of years,

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Speaker 5: especially after getting waved, and I was like, I'm gonna

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Speaker 5: take this try out. At New York, I had a

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Speaker 5: training camp contract. Kurt Miller was the coach. He was

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Speaker 5: super honest and he was just like, yo, training camp contract,

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Speaker 5: Like come in show like prove and prove what you got.

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Speaker 5: And for me, I was like, that's easy, Like having

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Speaker 5: a fair shot is all you want as a player

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Speaker 5: because I'm competitor, so competed made that squad, played my

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Speaker 5: last two years at LA, and just last season, I

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Speaker 5: just kind of knew. Mid season, I was like, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: it's time, Like mentally, emotionally, spiritually, I was standing at

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Speaker 5: half court. We're beating Vegas because i was the one

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Speaker 5: team we could beat last year even though we had

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Speaker 5: eight wins, somehow we could beat Vegas like we had

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Speaker 5: their number. I always played great against Vegas too. We're

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Speaker 5: playing Vegas. I'm standing at half court warming up to

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Speaker 5: get into the second half, and I'm like bawling. We're

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Speaker 5: playing great, and I just am like I'm done. And

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Speaker 5: normally I just have still so much joy and passion

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Speaker 5: and drive and will to keep playing. And the last

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Speaker 5: couple of years, when I have those moments, I'm like, oh,

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Speaker 5: I'm playing for five more years and I have a

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Speaker 5: hard day, I'm like I'm done tomorrow, like just going

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Speaker 5: through this roller coaster. But something really poignant this last

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Speaker 5: season was just like oh it's time, and I just

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Speaker 5: felt it deep in my spirit and was able to like, like, oh,

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Speaker 5: really not hold on too tight.

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Speaker 2: When you say the fuckery, that was the word that

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Speaker 2: you used. Are we talking about league politics or what exactly?

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Speaker 2: How how would you characterize and describe the fuckery?

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Speaker 5: The fuckery a great question. I would say the fuckery

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Speaker 5: is like the politics of being in in the industry,

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Speaker 5: but particularly sports industry, where let's say I was playing

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Speaker 5: for New York. I was on a guaranteed contract, having

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Speaker 5: a great season, just played great in the bubble season

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Speaker 5: with seven rookies that they brought in, had career numbers.

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Speaker 5: The next season, I get let go and from dealing

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Speaker 5: with some internal bs, from the internal politics, and have

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Speaker 5: a great character, have all these great things. Just basically

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Speaker 5: a beef with the coach and they were like, we're

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Speaker 5: gonna let you go. So got my money, got paid out,

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Speaker 5: but got sent home, and like they're messing with my

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Speaker 5: job now in my livelihood. So that kind of fuckery

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Speaker 5: that like someone can literally take your job you in

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Speaker 5: any given day. And then the politics of training camp

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Speaker 5: and rosters and how emotionally stressful the job is. I

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Speaker 5: think that's something people don't talk about enough. And I

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Speaker 5: have been one of the most even killed players, Like

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Speaker 5: I like to fight and get into it. We can

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Speaker 5: talk about that with players on the court, but as

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Speaker 5: a teammate, as a person and as a someone's character

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Speaker 5: throughout my career has been very like I'm gonna I'm

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Speaker 5: gonna stay, even kill and so but what has come

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Speaker 5: with that has been such an emotional toll, right because

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Speaker 5: like I can fake it till you make it. Internally,

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Speaker 5: I'm like, I'm pissed. I'm seeing that I'm going to

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Speaker 5: be a good taste teammate and so that stuff it

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Speaker 5: just started to weigh on me. And the more I

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Speaker 5: healed myself, the more I could see the sport for

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Speaker 5: what it was that I could see all the BS

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Speaker 5: that was happening. I was like, oh, actually, I don't

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Speaker 5: need that anymore. I don't need this to feel worthy.

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Speaker 5: I don't need this to feel loved. I don't need

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Speaker 5: this to feel like I belong. Yes, those things are great.

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Speaker 5: I love that part of the WNBA and belonging in

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Speaker 5: the sisterhood, But the BS part of it of like,

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Speaker 5: you know, we're gonna do cuts. When my first year

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Speaker 5: in LA they did cuts on a Thursday, I think

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Speaker 5: it was the final cutoff day, and then we played

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Speaker 5: that Saturday or Sunday against Big at home against Phoenix

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Speaker 5: in front of eighteen thousand fans, seventeen eighteen thousand fans,

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Speaker 5: So you don't know if you're going home or you're

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Speaker 5: playing in front of seventeen thousand people. Like that's the

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Speaker 5: hard picture to paint for people from a player perspective

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Speaker 5: of like what you're going through mentally emotionally you're like

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Speaker 5: I'm even to have a health insurance next week, or

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Speaker 5: like I'm getting on a plane in two weeks about

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Speaker 5: to play three games in five days, Like how does

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Speaker 5: one person continue to have that level of resilience over

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Speaker 5: and over and over? And for me, that's why I

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Speaker 5: just get into the farm and I was like, yeah,

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Speaker 5: y'all can have all that. I loved it, but just

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Speaker 5: this is time for me to love and let go.

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Speaker 5: Like late, y'all got it go forth.

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Speaker 2: So physically you you felt like you could definitely still

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Speaker 2: like physically you could still play, but it was just

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Speaker 2: sort of the mental aspects that you mentioned, like was

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Speaker 2: there any physical toll on.

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Speaker 5: Your body or yeah, there's definitely physical toll too, Like

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Speaker 5: I've had I've been relatively healthy for my whole career,

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Speaker 5: never had any knee injuries mocked on wood. That's been nice.

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Speaker 5: But last season I also was having some breathing issues.

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Speaker 5: For the first time ever. I had pneumonia before the season,

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Speaker 5: which is terrible, like why walking pneumonia? So that I

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Speaker 5: went into the season and I developed asthma and that

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Speaker 5: wasn't diagnosed until probably a couple of months into playing.

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Speaker 5: So I'm when I finally saw the polmonologists, he was like,

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Speaker 5: you've been playing in the WNDA with asthma, like undiagnosed

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Speaker 5: with no in haler, Like how like that speaks to

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Speaker 5: the strength of your lungs the fact that you were

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Speaker 5: even able to play. But I was feeling it on

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Speaker 5: the court too, like that just kind of wheezing, just

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Speaker 5: trying to like be a point guard and get the

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Speaker 5: ball where it goes and jog to the other side

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Speaker 5: of the court. So that was a tough also like

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Speaker 5: health battle that I was going through.

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Speaker 1: That.

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Speaker 5: You know, when you can't breathe, you can't you can't meditate,

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Speaker 5: you can't like all of that stuff that's connected to

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Speaker 5: your oxygen, all that calming, deep breathing. That's another big

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Speaker 5: thing I was going through last year and just was

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Speaker 5: really hard medically, kind of advocating for myself too within

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Speaker 5: the team and being believed and being like I cannot breathe,

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Speaker 5: and continuing to say those words over and over until

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Speaker 5: I was believed. I was like, I'm not out of shape.

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Speaker 5: I can't breathe. I've never come into camp out of shape.

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Speaker 5: I'm a player who's professional, who's going to show up

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Speaker 5: every day. So that was another hard kind of physical

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Speaker 5: aspect of it. You know that COVID two or three times, Like,

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Speaker 5: we don't know what some of that stuff is contributing

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Speaker 5: to all of our health too.

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Speaker 2: Now, you were then WNBA's first transgender and non binary player.

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Speaker 2: You know, you just were talking about how there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of things that people don't necessarily see. And I

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Speaker 2: know you have been often celebrate it for carrying that distinction,

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Speaker 2: But what were some of the struggles that people maybe

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Speaker 2: didn't see that you were going through. Oh, I know

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Speaker 2: it's probably not a short list, I know that.

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Speaker 5: But this will be a good chapter in the book

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Speaker 5: about this. I mean, some of the struggles are just

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Speaker 5: the toll of being the first. Like, I think there's

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Speaker 5: so much I have a deep gratitude and appreciation for

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Speaker 5: people in history who've been the first, especially black folks,

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Speaker 5: and so I know I'm in that line of folks

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Speaker 5: who have had to blaze a trail. But what comes

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Speaker 5: with that is like an emotional toll. It's like it's

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Speaker 5: lonely and it's isolating at times to be the person.

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Speaker 5: Like the analogy for me is like you're just hacking.

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Speaker 5: There's no trails, so you're just in the forest hacking

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Speaker 5: away like trying to find So you're going to get

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Speaker 5: scratched and bruised and you're going to get a little bloody,

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Speaker 5: and you're going to be lonely at times because you're

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Speaker 5: figuring it out. So that was tough for me. I mean,

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Speaker 5: in the bubble season is when I really decided I

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Speaker 5: didn't want breast anymore. So I was like, all right,

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Speaker 5: these gotta go. But then once you make that choice

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Speaker 5: for me, then I'm I'm really embodying the fact that

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Speaker 5: I don't want these anymore. So now I have to

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Speaker 5: live with this body until I can get to a

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Speaker 5: place right where I'm getting a firmed in my gender.

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Speaker 5: So that was really difficult for me. And that's all

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Speaker 5: happening in the bubble season. We're in Florida, finding for

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Speaker 5: our lives, as you know. I think those are some

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Speaker 5: of the big ones. It could be isolating at times,

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Speaker 5: like I don't realized like leadership or getting to the top,

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Speaker 5: or being the one of something like I want there

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Speaker 5: to be many of us. I want there to be

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Speaker 5: so many athletes and people that it's like, great, I'm

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Speaker 5: one of ten, fifteen, twenty. I had to talk to

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Speaker 5: some other athletes in other sports. That was helpful for

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Speaker 5: me to kind of reach out to them.

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Speaker 2: You were you also made a very intentional decision to

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Speaker 2: go public when you had your surgery and to show

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Speaker 2: people like what that looked like. I mean, for you,

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Speaker 2: what was the significance of not you just having the surgery,

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Speaker 2: but sort of telling.

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Speaker 1: The world that, hey, I have made this decision.

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Speaker 5: It was not wanting to be not necessarily in the closets.

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Speaker 5: I think people who make that choice, I wouldn't say

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Speaker 5: it's it's it's a similar to being in the closet.

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Speaker 5: But for me, it was really just wanting to be

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Speaker 5: like loud and proud about who I was and know

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Speaker 5: that like, this isn't something I'm afraid or ashamed of.

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Speaker 5: I didn't know my nipples were gonna end up on

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Speaker 5: USA today. I'm glad I covered them. I put the

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Speaker 5: stars over room like I didn't expect it to blow

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Speaker 5: up the way it did. So that kind of that

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Speaker 5: did that decision to share about my top surgery, like

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Speaker 5: it thrust me into a different stratosphere of I don't know,

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Speaker 5: celebrity of I would say deity in some ways in

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Speaker 5: the queer community. That was something I wasn't prepared for

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Speaker 5: or like a consequence of that was like oh whoa

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Speaker 5: Like this is like my story became other people's story

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Speaker 5: to like run with. And up until that point, I

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Speaker 5: feel like I'd shared stuff and our women's basketball world

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Speaker 5: was you know, small and intimate. It's clearly blowing up

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Speaker 5: in a big way at this moment in time. But

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Speaker 5: that for me was like oh, and then I'm seeing

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Speaker 5: other people talk about me online and talk about, you know,

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Speaker 5: fighting for what pronouns I use, and I'm like, thank you,

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Speaker 5: but I also I use all of them. You're not

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Speaker 5: even like this is but it's right. Everyone has a

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Speaker 5: connection to that story. Because I represent I became a

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Speaker 5: symbol for people. So that was a really fascinating part

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Speaker 5: of it that has had me ever since then kind

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Speaker 5: of juggling like what I want to share about my

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Speaker 5: life publicly and privately, like what parts of me do

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Speaker 5: only belong to me? And I don't regret sharing that

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Speaker 5: top surgery at all, but it's had me wrestling with

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Speaker 5: the like, okay, yeah, like once you put it out there,

390
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Speaker 5: it's the world, like they get to run with it,

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Speaker 5: and it's so many fans and so really appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: So I love that part about it.

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Speaker 2: I have another fellow up for you about that, but

394
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 2: before and you can call me a jackass for saying this,

395
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Speaker 2: but realize this is the nerdy grammar person in me

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Speaker 2: that they them.

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Speaker 1: It just grammatically.

398
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Speaker 2: Doesn't always look right, and it just drives me crazy

399
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Speaker 2: when I see it.

400
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 1: It's making you because like I know how it's supposed

401
00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:23,399
Speaker 1: to be used.

402
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Speaker 2: You know, obviously I respect his pronouns, but it's like

403
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Speaker 2: the they them has me constantly in a grammatical circle

404
00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:32,880
Speaker 2: of hell.

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Speaker 5: It's just like sometimes people are like, what it's me,

406
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,879
Speaker 5: I'm multiple people because you're you're.

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Speaker 1: Technic, because you're you're not binary, and you're in you're transgender.

408
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Speaker 2: So yes, you are multiple, but I'm like, grammatically, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It presents some challenges in sentences, yes, but.

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Speaker 2: You know, as you just mentioned a moment ago, it's

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Speaker 2: like carrying that way to being the first I remember

412
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Speaker 2: something comment. Here's it is that you know, when you

413
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Speaker 2: break a ceiling, it implies breaking is involved, right, So

414
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Speaker 2: that means.

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Speaker 1: That there's yeah, she ate that she dropped the borrow

416
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Speaker 1: on net.

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Speaker 2: She there's going to be some scarm But nevertheless, as

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Speaker 2: you say, your story represented so many people who don't

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Speaker 2: have the same voice and platform as you. So how

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Speaker 2: do you how do you handle mentally handle the heaviness

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Speaker 2: of that.

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Speaker 5: I mean, therapy has been one that's been great talking

423
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Speaker 5: through it. I have a good amount of trans friends,

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Speaker 5: to particular, two or three in particular that have gone

425
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Speaker 5: through the experiences and have been people who've honestly been

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Speaker 5: a light for me. One of my best friends, Ran

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Speaker 5: Warden has like lit in the lighted a path like

428
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Speaker 5: is I didn't know before them that, like even what

429
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Speaker 5: non binary really meant, because so much of our society

430
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Speaker 5: is still very like all right, you're there a signed

431
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 5: mail at birth and you want to be a woman. Okay,

432
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Speaker 5: you're transitioning all the way, there's like this like final

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Speaker 5: destination that you want to get to this point. And

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Speaker 5: so I've had people in my life fortunately that have

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00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:12,359
Speaker 5: like showed me the way. Like my best friend had

436
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 5: top surgery and I was like, oh cool, Like at

437
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,480
Speaker 5: the time, I wasn't thinking about I was like, oh, sure, okay,

438
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 5: and then like they were using different pronouns, I was like,

439
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 5: all right, I was fumbling. I'm messing him up and

440
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 5: be like trying them on and be like, oh, it's

441
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 5: weird to say he and she and they. But that

442
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 5: representation just sunk something in for me to have that space.

443
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,359
Speaker 5: So then when I was ready to kind of go

444
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 5: through it and ask these questions, so my people, my

445
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 5: community therapy. Honestly choosing what to share and what not

446
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 5: to share about my life anymore has been helpful because

447
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 5: I used to live in the world where I could,

448
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 5: I could DM everybody back and I could you know,

449
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,679
Speaker 5: when you're small enough, you can have those interactions. But

450
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,520
Speaker 5: the Internet has also turned to a wild, wild, wild place,

451
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 5: so I've had to really protect my mental health in

452
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 5: that aspect too.

453
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,919
Speaker 2: As you know right now with time where it's a

454
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 2: very hostile environment, for the trans community.

455
00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: I mean, it's just twenty twenty five alone.

456
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: There have been one hundred and nine anti trans bills

457
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 2: that have been passed so far in a variety of states,

458
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 2: and overall, I mean, just in the last few years,

459
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 2: there's been a total of nine hundred and fourteen that

460
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,160
Speaker 2: have been on the table, which is.

461
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 1: A staggering number.

462
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 2: Given what this climate feels like now, and especially with

463
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: a lot of directives coming from the White House, particularly

464
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 2: about stopping the participation of trans girls in sports, what

465
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 2: does this climate feel.

466
00:24:38,760 --> 00:24:39,199
Speaker 1: Like for you?

467
00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:47,959
Speaker 5: It feels terrible. It feels it's like you're, you know,

468
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 5: living your day to day life. How everything is supposed

469
00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 5: to be normal right now, but we all know we're

470
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 5: kind of living under like laate stage capitalism and like

471
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 5: fascism is that we're all like, are we really in

472
00:24:56,880 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 5: the Handmaid's Tale? But any minute now, but we should

473
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 5: be running, but do we have our passports? And like,

474
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 5: you know, being on a podcast, working my job every day,

475
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 5: but then also having that kind of invisible cloud of

476
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 5: that weight that just like sits on you and you

477
00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 5: don't know why you're anxious sometimes and you kind of

478
00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:14,280
Speaker 5: have to remind yourself stay, don gaslight yourself, like, oh,

479
00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 5: there's a lot of shit going on in the world,

480
00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 5: like people don't I had a break down like probably

481
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 5: every once in a while. Same way about like being

482
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 5: black in America, It's like you have to have some

483
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 5: level of disassociation to like be able to get in

484
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 5: your car every time and drive to know like you

485
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 5: could be murdered driving down the street by the police. Right.

486
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 5: So in that same way, I feel like I have

487
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,719
Speaker 5: to I'm fully like embodied as a trans person, and

488
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,479
Speaker 5: I love that, but at times I have to like

489
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,920
Speaker 5: box it out and not not believe that, like this

490
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 5: is the state of the world we're living in. And

491
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 5: so I had just break down the other day. It

492
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 5: was just like the country I live in and the

493
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 5: current administration and a lot of people like they just

494
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 5: don't want me to exist, Like they just don't literally

495
00:25:56,960 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 5: don't want people like me to exist. And to feel

496
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 5: that so viserabally, like as a black person and as

497
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:10,879
Speaker 5: a transperson is something familiar and also something that is weighty.

498
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 5: It's like we just the same way black people, like

499
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 5: I just want to live, Like, can y'all just stop

500
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 5: lynching us, beating us, pulling us over like just let

501
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 5: us exist. And I feel that deeply as a transperson

502
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 5: is like we're literally just trying to exist and we're

503
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 5: actually like a gift to the world, Like we are

504
00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 5: a gift in so many ways that we help people

505
00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 5: see that you don't have to subscribe to all of

506
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:36,160
Speaker 5: these oppressive gender notions that like you, actually we all

507
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 5: have a gender expression. We all have the ability to

508
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 5: put on whatever clothes we want every day, to be fluid,

509
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 5: to understand we all embody masculinity and femininity. But like

510
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 5: we have the audacity to show up in a world

511
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 5: right now that doesn't want us here, that wants to

512
00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:54,160
Speaker 5: erase us, and to still be like, no, I'm fucking here.

513
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 5: So at the end of the day, Like that's part

514
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 5: of what also gets me through the day, is like

515
00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:00,760
Speaker 5: I'm not going to be silenced up. Even though I'm

516
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 5: finding my balance, I'm still going to be like, now

517
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 5: you don't see me, I'm here.

518
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 2: You also were very vocal about the fact that you

519
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 2: felt like the league was supportive, especially when you had

520
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:16,120
Speaker 2: your your top surgery, and just generally overall that they have.

521
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: Been behind you.

522
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: But nevertheless, as someone as a player who's been in

523
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: multiple locker rooms. What is the conversation among the players

524
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: about the potential presence of more transgender people in the

525
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: WNBA or in the sport in general.

526
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:34,959
Speaker 1: What do those conversations sound like.

527
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 5: So all of my teammates have been great. They've asked

528
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,200
Speaker 5: amazing questions. They've asked them out of pocket questions. They've

529
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 5: asked them like you know, like I'm like, yeah, keep

530
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 5: it real because I appreciate that they'll like come up

531
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 5: through me and ask me the question, just be like, yo,

532
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 5: so what does this mean? Like, oh, when you take hormones,

533
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 5: how does that mean? What if it's this kind of

534
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,920
Speaker 5: person like and like sharing the intimacy with people who

535
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 5: get to like know someone right, they get to be like, oh,

536
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 5: that's Lesia. I had one teammate in particular, Natalie A. Taumwa,

537
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 5: who's been like the most amazing teammate ally ever, who

538
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:09,919
Speaker 5: before my mustache like had grown in when it was

539
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 5: just like a mustache women have usually shave off. She

540
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 5: was helping me. You know, we all been there, we

541
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 5: all know it's I can get a little bit. She

542
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 5: was like, oh, here, you'se my eyeliner pen. Had you

543
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 5: draw your eyebrows? In. This is like on media day

544
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,919
Speaker 5: and she's like brushing in. I was like, oh my gosh,

545
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 5: Like having this moment in the bathroom like that meant

546
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 5: the world to me, you know, Like my teammate was

547
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 5: like saw me in a different level, was like, oh here,

548
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 5: let me help you the same way I picture eyebrows

549
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 5: or any part of you, like affirming your gender. We've

550
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 5: had internal trainings for educational sessions, which I intentionally said

551
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 5: like I shouldn't be a part of those because players

552
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 5: should have the space to ask any question in any

553
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 5: way that they need to ask it without like my

554
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 5: presence or wanting to offend me. So I haven't been

555
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 5: privy to those calls intentionally, which I think was really good.

556
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,440
Speaker 5: So they could just be like, yo, that a man

557
00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 5: coming to play in our league. Let's like let them

558
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 5: just feel out whatever it is, and then I know specifically,

559
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 5: there's been a couple of teammates who are people in

560
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 5: the league who've had questions. So it's been a lot

561
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,640
Speaker 5: of like education, and that's what our league has always

562
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 5: been about. So it's been doing internal educational sessions to

563
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 5: be like, yeah, let's ask your questions. Let's understand why

564
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 5: We're only talking about the fear of a chance woman

565
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 5: coming into our league, right because I was accepted. I

566
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 5: was born I was a signed female at birth already.

567
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 5: So people are like, okay, laiser woman. I'm like I

568
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 5: got you know, I took my moves off, Like what's

569
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 5: the big deal, Like it's basically having a double mistectomy.

570
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 5: But this fear that, like, oh, someone was born a

571
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,080
Speaker 5: man and they come to play in our league, there's

572
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 5: like this Joana man fear that all of a sudden

573
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 5: someone's going to come play. And one of the things

574
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 5: that I always tell them was like, you know, we

575
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,800
Speaker 5: the women's game gets treated like shit, right, Like we

576
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 5: get paid less, we're on TV less. Like it's changing now,

577
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 5: but at the time, it's like people aren't signing up

578
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 5: to come play in our league from first and foremost

579
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 5: because we're not treated as well. We just started chartering

580
00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 5: last year and this year we're still underpaid. Right, The

581
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 5: fan base is getting better, all those things are getting better,

582
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 5: but like the last point is like signing up to

583
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:17,520
Speaker 5: be a trans person, you don't just do it for fun,

584
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 5: Like you see what our country is doing. You see

585
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,640
Speaker 5: the attack on trans folks. So people aren't just like,

586
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 5: you know what, let me just be trans todated, like

587
00:30:24,760 --> 00:30:26,760
Speaker 5: go play in the WNBA, like make some money and

588
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:30,040
Speaker 5: have fun. Like it's grueling what our country does to

589
00:30:30,120 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 5: trans people, like the suicide rates are higher, the rates

590
00:30:33,880 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 5: of murder are extremely high among trans women, domestic abuse,

591
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,000
Speaker 5: and so well, I love being trans on who I am.

592
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 5: I'm like, these boys are not signing up to come

593
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,280
Speaker 5: be in our league. And so it's that fear mongering

594
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 5: myth that gets us so stuck in those conversations that

595
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 5: we don't even have, like the very real conversations of like, okay,

596
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 5: what are we talking about in sport and competitive advantage

597
00:30:56,240 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 5: and the fact that Lebron James is three times bigger

598
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 5: than Steph Curry and has more muscle mass than him,

599
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 5: and we love competitive advantage in sports until we start

600
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 5: talking about trans people, or until trans people start winning

601
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 5: at their sports, then we want to start kind of

602
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 5: having this attack. And so that's been an interesting conversations

603
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 5: to have, and I've had some teammates who have just

604
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 5: been like, I'm not having this conversation, like I love

605
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,719
Speaker 5: that part of the w that has been like we

606
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 5: accept people in our league, like I'm not getting caught

607
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 5: in your what's the word like debate of this debate.

608
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: You know, I'm glad that you said that because I

609
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 2: have often had to remind people Juana Man was not

610
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: a documentary, okay, because they literally I'm like, do you

611
00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: realize that given the level as you mentioned, the layers

612
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,640
Speaker 2: of attacks and what you would actually sign up for

613
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 2: to do this? And we've seen this with other you know,

614
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 2: we saw look at Nobody's dot nobody's begging to be

615
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 2: Leah Thomas, Like nobody wants to sign up for that.

616
00:31:58,400 --> 00:31:59,360
Speaker 1: And that's no.

617
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: Excuse for the level of bigotry and transphobia that she's faced.

618
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 2: But it is to say that I think there's a

619
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: lot of frankly heterosexuals who have this idea that while hey,

620
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: plany sports of being a professional is great, but you

621
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 2: can't sit up here and tell me that a man

622
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: is just gonna all of a sudden decide like, hey,

623
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 2: guess what it's like.

624
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 1: It ain't that also.

625
00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 5: He would be better or good enough. It's like that

626
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 5: underlying misogyny of just like y'all really think you could

627
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 5: just step on the court and meet us first of all,

628
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 5: like we play against practice guys every day too, So

629
00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 5: like these every day bros off the street that think

630
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 5: they're just gonna be like, yeah, I'm gonna put a

631
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 5: jerzy on and come hoop, Like come watch the practice

632
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 5: film tape and see us marking these boys out here.

633
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: But you know, nevertheless, it's great because one thing I

634
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 2: do like more about it is the fact when women

635
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 2: are actually having this conversation with each other, because if

636
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: it's something that's going to be impacting women's sports, as

637
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 2: who should be having it. That being said, I've had

638
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 2: this same conversation with other professional athletes, female athletes across

639
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: a variety you know, of sports, and I think many

640
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 2: of them like that was interesting that you said that

641
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 2: you didn't want to be a part of those conversations

642
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 2: because you wanted the other players to be able to

643
00:33:16,280 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: voice how they felt. And what is really interesting in

644
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 2: talking to the female athletes that I have is that

645
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 2: when it comes to, as you mentioned, the competitive advantage part,

646
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 2: the how will people accept it or take it? Among women,

647
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 2: about what would happen if someone who was a trans

648
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: woman won something that they also wanted to win. And

649
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 2: then that's when the conversation gets really interesting. When it

650
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 2: becomes about competing for the same you know things. So

651
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: as you have heard it in those conversations, I guess

652
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,840
Speaker 2: the people that worry that, like, oh, they have this

653
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: competitive advantage, I would have been good enough.

654
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: You know that, that whole line of thinking.

655
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: What sort of your response to that, to the people

656
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 2: that worry that you know it will impact people's livelihoods

657
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: in a negative way.

658
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 5: Well, one, I would say that there's so many policies

659
00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 5: in place for even being able to compete. So there's

660
00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 5: an NC double a policy that you have to be

661
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 5: in sort of hormonal ranges. So it's again that people

662
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 5: hate the right and all this fear mongering that like

663
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 5: chance people are coming to take your scholarships, you're in

664
00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 5: il deals, your track scholarships you earned or didn't even earn.

665
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 5: You can't talk about the ra We need to talk

666
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 5: about the racial implications of all this too, is that

667
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 5: sports is an inherently competitive space. So one I think

668
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 5: if you really believe that you're good enough to compete,

669
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 5: like let's say I'm playing against Mecca, Like Mecca's out

670
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 5: rebounding me, okay, because Neca's bigger than me, it's not fair,

671
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 5: Like she can jump higher than me. She's stronger than me,

672
00:34:57,440 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 5: like pound for pound. At the end of the day,

673
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 5: I don't know, you know, I'm not gonna I'm gonna

674
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 5: take some of it from her. But at the end

675
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:07,120
Speaker 5: of the day, she has a competitive advantage over me,

676
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 5: because that's what sport is. It's inherently talent. It's you know,

677
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:17,280
Speaker 5: Michael Phelps having an advantage with disability to process lactic acid.

678
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 5: And so my question is always like why why with

679
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 5: trans people? Why what is the underlying fear that like,

680
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,839
Speaker 5: all of a sudden, this trans person comes in and

681
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 5: they're like this Joana man, this monster, this big mythical

682
00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 5: person or creature who all of a sudden, like I

683
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 5: didn't grow, like I didn't become like I was still

684
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 5: the same lasion that got to play basketball at the

685
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,359
Speaker 5: end of the day. And so I think people really

686
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 5: need to check their transphobia at the end of the

687
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 5: day that like one understand that there's policies in place,

688
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,760
Speaker 5: so you have to there's a rigorous amount of policies

689
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 5: and testing that you have to go through in order

690
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 5: to play in college sports for the professionals, and then

691
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 5: absolutely at the Olympics, you can't take you can't take

692
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 5: niques and competing Olympics like they are crazy about their

693
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 5: level of testing. And so understand that first and foremost

694
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 5: is that that's in place. So there are protections in place,

695
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 5: there's there's levels. Different leagues have different policies in place.

696
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 5: I know the NWSL has one. So with that being said,

697
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 5: if there's policies in place, I would ask people the

698
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 5: question and like, then what are you afraid of? Like

699
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 5: what's the competitive advantage that someone has over you? Like

700
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 5: is it the same competitive vantage that necket has over

701
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 5: me or BG has over another player because BG sticks

702
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 5: eight and I'm five to nine, like you know, like

703
00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:41,279
Speaker 5: they inherently exist in sports, And so I think that's

704
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 5: the kind of thing to come back to. And the

705
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 5: question that I asked is like what is it? And

706
00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 5: is it our chance? Like we're being fed this narrative

707
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 5: over and over and over and over again. The trans

708
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 5: people are like coming to a thief in the night

709
00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 5: and we're coming in your bathrooms. It's like we're just

710
00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 5: trying to pee, We're just trying to play sports, we're

711
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 5: just trying to live. We're just trying to walk down

712
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 5: the street, like like, let us live. You know, at

713
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 5: the end of the day, we just want to live

714
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 5: and play sports, and sports is such a space that's

715
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 5: like it has helped me belong, it has helped me

716
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 5: feel loved, It's helped me have community, It's helped me

717
00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 5: learn how to work through conflict. Like it's I get

718
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 5: really insensed about the fact that, like young people are

719
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 5: being taken the advantage to play sports from young people's

720
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 5: being taken away. We're talking about six, seven, eight year olds,

721
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 5: a nine year old playing soccer when the statistics of

722
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,240
Speaker 5: going pro are like point point point point whatever, tiny,

723
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,399
Speaker 5: Like you're not going to become professional in your sport.

724
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 5: It's very rare. And so the fact that we're doing

725
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 5: this to young people who just want to be a

726
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 5: nine year old who wants to play soccer is insane.

727
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 5: It's ludicrous. And the last point I will make is

728
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 5: it's really important to note that, like be mindful because

729
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 5: those same attack, those same narratives that are being used

730
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 5: to attack trans people are going to end up hurting women,

731
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,839
Speaker 5: and they already are and we're already seeing it hurting

732
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:06,800
Speaker 5: women in terms of our access to reproductive care, women

733
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 5: being gender tested or being asked to pull their pants

734
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 5: down when they're straight c this women and it's like

735
00:38:11,560 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 5: they're looking left right now, like why do I have

736
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 5: to do this? Like, because that's what you're signing up for.

737
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 5: If we're going to want to gender test people or

738
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 5: want to make sure people are assigned the gender that

739
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 5: they are, like, you're going to be scrutinized to that

740
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 5: same degree as well. And so the fact that women's

741
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 5: sports is the like rock that this whole narrative is

742
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:35,439
Speaker 5: standing on. Instead of the investment in women's sports, in

743
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:40,040
Speaker 5: women's coaching leagues, in more youth leagues, you know, the

744
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 5: term the terps out there, like people who believe in

745
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 5: that they're probably gonna be all in our DMS now

746
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 5: after this conversation, is really the people that believe that

747
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 5: we need to invest more in women's sports. I think

748
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,440
Speaker 5: that's the most like insensing part of all of this

749
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 5: is that we're all actually on the same team. We're

750
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 5: all the ones marginalized gender as women as an umbrella

751
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 5: term on this side for sport.

752
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, I've said that a thousand times.

753
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: It's like, no protecting women's sports would be investing in them,

754
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 2: would be making sure that they have equitable treatment, equitable resources,

755
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 2: Like that's how you protect.

756
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 5: Women's sports, Yeah, people who want to play, Yeah, not by.

757
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:21,879
Speaker 1: Doing it this way.

758
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 2: But I nevertheless, I do have a lot of questions

759
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,480
Speaker 2: to ask you about investment and especially about this upcoming

760
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 2: collective bargaining negotiations since you were part.

761
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: Of the last one.

762
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 2: So definitely we need to that, I know, right, all

763
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 2: your favorite topics. But we're just going to take a

764
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 2: very quick break and we'll be back with more with

765
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 2: Lesia Clarendon. So before we took a break, Leisia, we

766
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 2: were talking about investment and this next collective bargaining agreement

767
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,800
Speaker 2: with the players and the league.

768
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:04,320
Speaker 1: It I mean, I think it's fair.

769
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: To say it's probably the most critical one that we've

770
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,080
Speaker 2: probably seen. You went through the last one as a

771
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 2: major voice within those negotiations. This time around, you won't

772
00:40:16,520 --> 00:40:19,000
Speaker 2: be part of the league, but I'm sure you obviously

773
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 2: probably have major opinions and and you know, known as

774
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:27,120
Speaker 2: far as you see it, What are some of the

775
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:31,160
Speaker 2: issues that the w n b A has to settle

776
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: with players in order to continue this momentum that the

777
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 2: league has built.

778
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 5: Oh god, yeah, give me flashbacks from the all on negotiations. Yeah,

779
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,359
Speaker 5: I'm not internally involved anymore, but I can just see

780
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:49,879
Speaker 5: even from the outside end having known. I mean, it's

781
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,879
Speaker 5: definitely their salary issues still on the table. There are

782
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 5: charter issues flying, how we travel, scheduling, how many games

783
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 5: can be added. Player safety is always a big topic

784
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,440
Speaker 5: with how many games you're asking players to play in

785
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 5: a short amount of time. It's like chartering has helped

786
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 5: the quality of getting around and what it does the

787
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 5: toll on your body. I think the new media right

788
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 5: still has been really interesting that happened within the within

789
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 5: this year, and so does that translate to more money?

790
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 5: So I think stalary is going to be the really

791
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 5: big question of like, is this the CBA that blows

792
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 5: it out of the water. Are we hitting that number

793
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 5: where we're like, oh, we've gotten there. I know on

794
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 5: the last CBA we did a lot of protections for

795
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 5: moms and for pregnancy and forgetting your full salary. So

796
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 5: I'd be curious how they kind of robustly bumped those up,

797
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 5: or do they, you know, change the childcare stipends a

798
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 5: little bit higher, those kind of things. I'm trying to

799
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:49,600
Speaker 5: think of what else was in it. It really traveled

800
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 5: player safety and conversation are like the big big ones.

801
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: I would recently was in conversation with Kennas Parker and

802
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 2: this was something small that I didn't realize. And I

803
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 2: don't know that this isn't necessarily a collect bargaining issue,

804
00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:03,640
Speaker 2: but just to I think it's one of those things

805
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: that when you say to people just so they understand

806
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:10,240
Speaker 2: how far the WNBA still has to come. Kennis Parker,

807
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 2: you know, she finished her career with the Las Vegas

808
00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 2: ass She said it was the first time in her

809
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 2: WNBA career that she ever had her own locker, and

810
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:21,319
Speaker 2: that was crazy to me. Yeah, and a lot of

811
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 2: people do not realize that because you all are often

812
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 2: you're not training at your own practice facilities, like most

813
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 2: teams do not have those. The Aces one of the

814
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 2: few because they have new ownership. They poured a lot

815
00:42:32,480 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: of money into the aces. But something like that is

816
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: just mind boggling, Like you don't have your own locker,

817
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: so every time you go practice, you got to take

818
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:44,320
Speaker 2: all your shit and go in the same with the games.

819
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 5: It's like, what terrible? Yeah, and it depends on what team.

820
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 5: I remember hearing that comment from Cannas too. And I

821
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,240
Speaker 5: was even surprised, and I was like, oh, she played

822
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:55,440
Speaker 5: for LA. I was like, well, what you also played

823
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,880
Speaker 5: for Yeah, my last two years. Yes, And I was

824
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 5: fortunate to play for some of the best organizations in

825
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 5: the league. I played for New York who was just

826
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,880
Speaker 5: had redone their entire locker room. Minnesota is one of

827
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:09,560
Speaker 5: the best and has been one of the best for

828
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 5: quite a while with their locker room and their situation

829
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,319
Speaker 5: there got I was drafted to Indiana. So Indiana has

830
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,200
Speaker 5: been one of the best from day one in terms

831
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,000
Speaker 5: of like NBA ownership. So you're all in San Arena.

832
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 5: You could drive to the xamp whatever time you want,

833
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 5: hit you a little key card, go get shot up

834
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 5: at midnight. So you have that vascillation in the league

835
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 5: of like you're going to the indianas the Minnesota is

836
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,040
Speaker 5: the New York. Someone's going to get their feelings hurt.

837
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 5: I left them out, you know, the Phoenix, the Seattle

838
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 5: who just did a really big practice facility, the Valkyries

839
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 5: who have theirs now. So I think you're starting to

840
00:43:43,400 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 5: see like more teams than not are on the trend

841
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 5: of like having your own facility than the teams that don't,

842
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 5: and the ones that don't are starting to announce, Oh,

843
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 5: we got to start getting ours bill. Like I think

844
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 5: Chicago is going to start building theirs because it's going

845
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 5: to matter and free agency. People want to go play.

846
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 5: We're like they have a good quality of life where

847
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 5: they're not picking their stuff up every day to travel

848
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 5: it here and there. When I played for Atlanta, God,

849
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:08,719
Speaker 5: we were practicing on some w rec facility where we

850
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 5: had to like showering with the old ladies over there,

851
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,319
Speaker 5: and that was getting their little workouts in. You know,

852
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 5: just that level of I would say, lack of professionalism

853
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 5: and a level of dignity that you want to do

854
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 5: your job as a professional. And so in the last CBA,

855
00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:28,120
Speaker 5: that was the like kind of getting us back. I

856
00:44:28,120 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 5: think to some baseline dignities that we tried to do,

857
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 5: Like let's at the stage for this next one which

858
00:44:34,560 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 5: we're in now, which came quickly. Let's make sure this

859
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 5: has some good qualities. Before the last CBA, people were

860
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,239
Speaker 5: sharing their own rooms. People had to share a room

861
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 5: until you were five or six years of service. So

862
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,399
Speaker 5: now everybody gets their own room. Remember the last couple

863
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 5: of years, it was Zion Cook. If she was in

864
00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 5: LA and they're like getting their own room or like yes,

865
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 5: Like I was so proud and happy to be like

866
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 5: you deserve to go to your own room after practice,

867
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 5: Cameron brig when we were charged with the charter announcement,

868
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 5: I got a call from our GM and I was like,

869
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 5: oh my god, this is not real. And Cameron was like,

870
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 5: I can't believe it. She was all like, but you

871
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 5: guys didn't get this and foss so hard and I

872
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 5: was like, girl, we bought hard so you could have it,

873
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,359
Speaker 5: Like no, we don't want you to suffer. That's not like,

874
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 5: that's not what our league is about, being like we

875
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,600
Speaker 5: had to do it, so y'all need to do it.

876
00:45:19,640 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 5: We're like, no, you take it to the next level,

877
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:24,720
Speaker 5: like get that bedroom, take that nil money, grow our league,

878
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:27,240
Speaker 5: Like I want to see it to a place where

879
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 5: it's experiencing things that I never could have imagined. But

880
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 5: I was a part of one of those bricks in

881
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:35,319
Speaker 5: the same way Lisa Leslie was a brick so I

882
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:38,839
Speaker 5: could play in it, like can't. Tamika Catchings was one

883
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 5: of the best players to ever play the game of basketball.

884
00:45:41,440 --> 00:45:46,759
Speaker 5: I played with her in Indiana. She never charted like

885
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 5: super didn't get to charge her last season, Like I

886
00:45:50,280 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 5: actually I text both of them the day we got

887
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:55,200
Speaker 5: charges that was like, yo, I appreciate both of you

888
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 5: the fact that we're getting this now and you never

889
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 5: did in your entire career, Like there's things going to

890
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 5: get But I was a shoulder like stand on my shoulders.

891
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 5: Let's stay while I'm standing on other people's shoulders. So

892
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 5: I think that's the big part of what this CBA

893
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:10,560
Speaker 5: growth is going to be when it comes out, Like

894
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:12,840
Speaker 5: I'm gonna be sitting at home crying, clapping reading. They

895
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 5: had all the announcements to be like yes, go, go,

896
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 5: go go now.

897
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,919
Speaker 2: Now people know that the WNBA, they have a well

898
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:22,640
Speaker 2: deserved reputation of being a league full of women who

899
00:46:22,680 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 2: are not afraid to speak out, not afraid to participate socially,

900
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:31,279
Speaker 2: politically or rather in social justice issues, political issues, you

901
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 2: being one of the major key voices, and so you know,

902
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,800
Speaker 2: obviously in the bubble you had the Sayer name campaign

903
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:40,239
Speaker 2: about Breonna Taylor, there was a lot going on. You

904
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 2: all essentially changed history by organizing to get Reverend Rafael

905
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,120
Speaker 2: warneck Warnock elected in Georgia once the league got behind him,

906
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,240
Speaker 2: now seeing given that DNA that runs to the WNBA,

907
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: you know, now that there's more money, there's going to

908
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: be expectations to keep that money going in. And we

909
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:05,720
Speaker 2: know how people can feel about sports and politics mixing together.

910
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 2: How concerned are you that the WNBA that spirit of

911
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:15,399
Speaker 2: community of fighting for what's right.

912
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,920
Speaker 1: Are you worried at all that with this.

913
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 2: New influx of money and capital that thought that part

914
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 2: of the league's DNA begins to change.

915
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 5: Ooh, you nailed it. That's what I was going to say,

916
00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 5: was capitalism and the league coming in. I do have

917
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 5: some concerns. I never want to be that player who's like,

918
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 5: now I'm retired. I'm like, yeah, these young kids, you know,

919
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 5: they're not doing what we did back in the day.

920
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 5: But money does change things, and I think there's more

921
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 5: on the line that's being risked, and we risk a

922
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 5: lot risk our salaries in twenty twenty bubble risks, you know,

923
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 5: our careers in some ways for speaking out if people

924
00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 5: didn't like that, talking about the anthem people blowing up

925
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,960
Speaker 5: our dms and talking about patriotism and all this stuff.

926
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 5: I think there's I think the w is on this

927
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 5: precipice where we have to be really careful, like we're

928
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 5: teetering on the growth of the league and not losing

929
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 5: the recipes that made us who we are, like not

930
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 5: losing the sauce, and that happens with every generation, like

931
00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:19,880
Speaker 5: the oral histories of it, the like making sure people

932
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,480
Speaker 5: watch the power of the dream so they understand like

933
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 5: why our league is where it's at. I know last

934
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:30,840
Speaker 5: year when I was in LA, one of our dobos

935
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,520
Speaker 5: was like, I don't know that the rookies have even

936
00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 5: seen the power of the dream. Like I feel like

937
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 5: we should make them sit down and watch it and

938
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 5: like have a like a day for like a team event.

939
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 5: So I think in that way, we do have to

940
00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:44,400
Speaker 5: be careful of losing kind of the soft of what

941
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 5: God is here. On another hand or another point, I

942
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 5: think it's really beautiful that like players are getting paid

943
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 5: to show up and play basketball. I think that's like

944
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 5: there's so much social justice and the fact that these

945
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 5: women are finally getting their coins, like they're getting their

946
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 5: money out here, so like, yes, I don't want them

947
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 5: to lose, like the DNA and the sneaking out and

948
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 5: the talking about it, and in Summon says, I'm like, yeah,

949
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,439
Speaker 5: like Asia, get your money, get your shoe, like get

950
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,399
Speaker 5: what you deserve if you were overdue for that for

951
00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 5: however many years. And so there's justice in I think

952
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 5: that pay gap being shortened, like in those types of

953
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,160
Speaker 5: players making the money now that they don't have to

954
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 5: think about going overseas, the fact that they get to

955
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 5: stay home, that they can't start businesses, the like do

956
00:49:31,760 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 5: they get to start, you know, venture businesses in ways

957
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,279
Speaker 5: that they did it before. Subberg gets to walk off

958
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 5: in her career now and start everything she's done with

959
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 5: a touch more and with her podcast, and so in

960
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 5: that way, I think there's so much beauty in it

961
00:49:44,640 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 5: too that the players are getting paid. So I don't

962
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 5: want to be like capitalism is all evil, the devil,

963
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,719
Speaker 5: but at the same time, I do know, you know,

964
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 5: when more is on the line and there's more people

965
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:57,000
Speaker 5: to talk and there's more pressure in the commissioner and

966
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 5: particular I think around GAZA has been interesting that you

967
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 5: I haven't seen as many players kind of speak out.

968
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 5: That's been a really like volatile issue the way people

969
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 5: have framed anti Semitism in terms of folks speaking out

970
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 5: for Gaza. It's flipped a switch. I think that's an

971
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 5: issue that you've only seen I think myself, cloud like

972
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 5: a handful of players really really touch on it. I

973
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:22,880
Speaker 5: think that's been fascinating, and there's been a lot. I

974
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 5: think there's some fear around the repercussions of what we're

975
00:50:27,320 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 5: seeing in our country right now, not.

976
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 2: Just with Gaza, but would you say that extends to

977
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: other topics, Because one thing I certainly noticed was in

978
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: this election cycle, the presidential election cycle, that while there

979
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 2: is a very unique.

980
00:50:42,400 --> 00:50:44,959
Speaker 1: Circumstance of all of you all being in a bubble.

981
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,719
Speaker 2: Right so you're able to organize, and it was going

982
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 2: to look different, and certainly with just the year the

983
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 2: country had overall, it was just a different time in

984
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 2: a different moment. But it seemed and I don't know

985
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: if it was just my perception or if you felt

986
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 2: it was reality, but there seem to be it seemed

987
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: to be a lot quieter around this past presidential election

988
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: among WNBA players then it was four years prior. So

989
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:14,400
Speaker 2: is it just about the subject matter? You think in

990
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 2: general that there has been a lot more reluctance among

991
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 2: your colleagues to speak out.

992
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,279
Speaker 5: I think there's another point is that we're also exhausted

993
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 5: like as black women who've been fighting this fight. I

994
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 5: know when I came out of twenty twenty, I think

995
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:35,799
Speaker 5: there could be some reluctance there. But coming out of

996
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,400
Speaker 5: what we've done in the last whatever four year cycle

997
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:42,040
Speaker 5: with the bubble and Warnock being all together. One, it's

998
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 5: hard to organize when you're not all in the same place. Two,

999
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 5: the level of engagement has been hard. The last couple

1000
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 5: of years, even for myself, has been like we got

1001
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,720
Speaker 5: this other call like okay, well what we doing today?

1002
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:57,880
Speaker 5: The like we flipped the seat and then it was

1003
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 5: like the next year. The next day, everyone's like, what

1004
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 5: do you guys doing next? And we're like kidding me.

1005
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 5: We just slip the sentence, like what are y'all doing?

1006
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 5: Like we're tired? Like girls. I think there, I think

1007
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 5: there is a level of like I don't want to

1008
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,600
Speaker 5: dismiss the fear of the capitalism, but there is some

1009
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 5: of just like God, what more can the w also do? Right?

1010
00:52:16,640 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 5: Like we can't, we can't give y'all like Asia Wilson

1011
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:22,879
Speaker 5: the next president, like we done you know how black

1012
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 5: people are feeling right now, just like y'all got somebody

1013
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 5: else got to pick this up. NBA MLB like HL like,

1014
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 5: I need y'all to carry the torch because we're doing

1015
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 5: a lot and we need to take a nap. So

1016
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,640
Speaker 5: I think you cannot discount that aspect of it too.

1017
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 5: And I lived and breathed it after the bubble season

1018
00:52:42,120 --> 00:52:46,799
Speaker 5: was just like an exhaustion, and you have to find,

1019
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,439
Speaker 5: I think internally, when when certain players need to step back,

1020
00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:52,440
Speaker 5: but then other people still stepping forward. And I think

1021
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 5: that's the recipe. Is the W as a whole is

1022
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 5: like how do you continue to have organizing be a

1023
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 5: part of the DNA. So they started the Jedi Community,

1024
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,120
Speaker 5: the committee on the union side, and so having the

1025
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 5: Social Justice Council, Like how do you continue to how

1026
00:53:12,280 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 5: do you sustain organizing? That's a question that organizers have

1027
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 5: been asking, like over generations, and so I think that's

1028
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,319
Speaker 5: partly what you're seeing with the W two is like,

1029
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,720
Speaker 5: how do we sustain these organizing efforts while also playing

1030
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 5: while also being in the midst of the CBA season,

1031
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 5: which that's organizing in and of itself. And so I

1032
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 5: give a lot of grace in that perspective too, for

1033
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 5: the league and the players and where they're at, because

1034
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 5: so much energy I know is going towards those calls

1035
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 5: right now. And there's one player I need a shout

1036
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:42,360
Speaker 5: on in particular who has never lost the stops and

1037
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:45,680
Speaker 5: who has always spoken out. And Brianna Turner, she has

1038
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 5: been like for trans rights, has had we never played together,

1039
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,080
Speaker 5: she had me in her shoe one day, Like, she's

1040
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,080
Speaker 5: that person who is always speaking out no matter what,

1041
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 5: talking about it. She's been about it since day one.

1042
00:53:58,600 --> 00:53:59,640
Speaker 5: So shout out to her.

1043
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 2: So you have been somebody who has always seemingly embraced

1044
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:09,440
Speaker 2: this idea that as an athlete, you wanted the responsibility

1045
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: to carry the responsibility of using your platform, your position

1046
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 2: to discuss social issues, to be on the front lines

1047
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:23,240
Speaker 2: when it came to, you know, supporting those you know, community.

1048
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 1: Issues that you care about.

1049
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:28,040
Speaker 2: How did that relationship evolve because this seems like something

1050
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:31,320
Speaker 2: that was always you. So how did this kind of

1051
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 2: come to be where you were embracing being an athlete activist?

1052
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it started in college. So much of

1053
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 5: it is really connected to my faith too. In college,

1054
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 5: I like cut my hair into blonde mohawk. I uh,

1055
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,640
Speaker 5: I was like found Jesus up here in Berkeley of

1056
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 5: all the places, and really, so much of feeling good

1057
00:54:57,239 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 5: at myself has like come from my faith and come

1058
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 5: from my relationship with God. And I believe I'm integrating

1059
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:06,480
Speaker 5: all my faith and like astrology and Buddhism and Christianity

1060
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 5: and of course all the ways very like non binary

1061
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 5: of me to not pick aside and be in the

1062
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 5: middle of it. And so really I find this the

1063
00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 5: more internal work that I do and wrestling with myself

1064
00:55:24,239 --> 00:55:26,400
Speaker 5: or my identity or the things that I've been through,

1065
00:55:27,640 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 5: I know that there's other people that struggle with this too.

1066
00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,440
Speaker 5: So it's always kind of started for me internally and

1067
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 5: then I'm like, oh, I'm struggling with this, Like I

1068
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:36,799
Speaker 5: know I'm not alone in this, and so it's kind

1069
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 5: of turned into an outward thing. Happened to be also

1070
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 5: an athlete, and so my senior year I just was

1071
00:55:44,520 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 5: feeling really good about being gay and Christian. And that's

1072
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,440
Speaker 5: something I struggled with all through college, was like, can

1073
00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 5: I be gay? Can I be Christian?

1074
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:51,840
Speaker 1: Like?

1075
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 5: Is this a thing? Like I don't really see them anywhere.

1076
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:57,719
Speaker 5: This is back in two thousand and nine to thirteen.

1077
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 5: I don't see these things existing together. And so once

1078
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 5: I once basically got was like, girl, you're good. I

1079
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 5: made you to be this way, Like you're lovable, you're perfect,

1080
00:56:09,680 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 5: beyond measure. I was like, oh, like, y'all can't tell

1081
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 5: me nothing. So for me, that kind of burst in

1082
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 5: the doors open and going into my rookie year in

1083
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 5: Indiana at that point, I just was like, oh, I'm

1084
00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:25,560
Speaker 5: gonna speak out from day one. And so when they

1085
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:26,839
Speaker 5: asked me, like, what do you want to talk about,

1086
00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 5: it was like anything everything gay, Like I'm the queer

1087
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 5: kid with the blonde mohawk moving to Indiana of all places,

1088
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 5: which is wild. Mike Pens was the governor at the time,

1089
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 5: Like God, God, and I just had this this audacity

1090
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,839
Speaker 5: and this belief and like so much of it just

1091
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 5: comes from internally that like part of my mission in

1092
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 5: this world, I know unequivocally is to go through things

1093
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,920
Speaker 5: that sit in attention, like hold and wrestle with tension

1094
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 5: and be able to like hold like the both end

1095
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 5: of things Like I can do that. I literally do

1096
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 5: it in my body as a non binary person. I've

1097
00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:12,000
Speaker 5: done it as a biracial person my whole life, and

1098
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 5: so doing that in sports just came really natural to me.

1099
00:57:17,360 --> 00:57:19,800
Speaker 5: And I don't think when I was young, I realized

1100
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,240
Speaker 5: how much I was risking. I don't think I realized,

1101
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:25,280
Speaker 5: you know, you're young and on fire, and like I

1102
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 5: got this that looking back, I see some of the

1103
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 5: emails that I've sent internally to some of our coaches

1104
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 5: around some racial things that I wanted to talk about.

1105
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 5: Like I was like Stephanie White was my coach at

1106
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 5: the time, and a few of the coaches, and I

1107
00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 5: saw an email that was like, Hey, I really want

1108
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,440
Speaker 5: to talk about this, like I'm feeling upset. I think

1109
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:45,200
Speaker 5: it was I can't remember the name a person who

1110
00:57:45,240 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 5: was murdered unfortunately at the time, and I was so

1111
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,960
Speaker 5: angry that I had this all white coaching staff that

1112
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 5: we were just going to practice like normal, like are

1113
00:57:53,920 --> 00:57:55,280
Speaker 5: we going to talk about I was kind of looking

1114
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 5: left and right like are we going to talk about this?

1115
00:57:56,880 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 5: What's up? And that even that went really well with

1116
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 5: my coaching staff. Yeah. I ended up being Grand Marshall

1117
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:05,760
Speaker 5: for Indiana Pride Parade, and I think he was a

1118
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 5: fourteen or fifteen. I think it was fourteen, and so

1119
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 5: it's just been inherent to who I am. And I

1120
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 5: think I had some missed opportunities in college to use

1121
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 5: my power the way I could have. I was the

1122
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 5: best player on the team. I'd come out. I wanted

1123
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 5: to make March LGBT Awareness month, and essentially that got

1124
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 5: squashed by my coaching staff. They were like, don't be

1125
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:29,920
Speaker 5: the gay kid. People are going to use it against you.

1126
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 5: And so when I got to Lee, I was like,

1127
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 5: I'm the gay kid, and that's become my brand and

1128
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 5: it's just kind of sprinted and run off ever since

1129
00:58:38,360 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 5: then and just been just a part of my DNA

1130
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 5: unto I am.

1131
00:58:42,080 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 2: How much is this related to and you wrote an

1132
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 2: amazing first person piece about this. How much is this

1133
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 2: related to the fact that part of your coming out

1134
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 2: story is having to advocate with your own parents about

1135
00:58:57,920 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: what your identity was. So I guess because you in

1136
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,680
Speaker 2: your own home, you know you had parents that initially

1137
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: were not accepting of of who you are. So how

1138
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 2: much do you think that played a role into you

1139
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:15,520
Speaker 2: developing this pattern of standing.

1140
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:15,840
Speaker 1: Up for yourself?

1141
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 5: You just like therapy unlocked in the whole nother like

1142
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:24,360
Speaker 5: hold on, I need a moment with that. And also

1143
00:59:24,400 --> 00:59:26,200
Speaker 5: what came up was like all my life I had

1144
00:59:26,280 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 5: to fight.

1145
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,240
Speaker 1: In your case, it's literally true.

1146
00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 5: It's like, yeah, you gotta have Yeah, that's a great,

1147
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 5: I mean way to put it. Yeah, I had to

1148
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 5: fight for I mean, I have an older sister who

1149
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 5: was out in and didn't go very well, so I

1150
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:46,360
Speaker 5: knew very clearly from my parents was like okay, noted,

1151
00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 5: be back into that closet until it's safe. I've always

1152
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 5: had to advocate for myself. Yeah, from the very beginning

1153
00:59:54,600 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 5: with my parents, with them accepting me for who I am.

1154
01:00:00,960 --> 01:00:03,560
Speaker 5: So it's put a deep sense of belief in myself

1155
01:00:03,560 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 5: of like, it doesn't matter how many external factors, even

1156
01:00:06,720 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 5: from like your parents to whoever may be a pastor,

1157
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 5: this person is like, you know who you are. And

1158
01:00:13,120 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 5: that for me is when my faith got reassured and

1159
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 5: I got my own relationship with God that I was

1160
01:00:19,480 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 5: felt unstoppable in that sense and felt like, yeah, y'all

1161
01:00:24,120 --> 01:00:26,200
Speaker 5: can say whatever you got to say, because I'm out

1162
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 5: here in these streets. I know what's up. But yeah,

1163
01:00:28,560 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 5: I had to fight with my parents, deal with in

1164
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 5: college get to the point of being a pro believing

1165
01:00:34,120 --> 01:00:40,160
Speaker 5: in myself, believing that I am worthy and deserving to

1166
01:00:40,240 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 5: be the fullness of who I am unequivocally one hundred

1167
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:46,680
Speaker 5: percent and that's the belief that I've had to have

1168
01:00:46,760 --> 01:00:49,200
Speaker 5: in myself and to fight and advocate for for years

1169
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 5: and years and years, and to continue to pill back

1170
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 5: the layers of who I am in order to just

1171
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 5: be authentically me, like a hundred percent.

1172
01:00:56,920 --> 01:00:59,280
Speaker 2: I don't want to end this podcast without talking about

1173
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,000
Speaker 2: your foundation, which I know is very important to you.

1174
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,040
Speaker 1: What was your motivation in starting that?

1175
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:09,439
Speaker 5: It was having top surgery, being someone who has health

1176
01:01:09,440 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 5: insurance and still paying Helen money out of pocket and

1177
01:01:12,280 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 5: realizing how difficult it is in our healthcare system. So I,

1178
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 5: in partnership with the didas it's one of my sponsors,

1179
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:22,840
Speaker 5: was like, Yo, giving money to kids for basketball is

1180
01:01:22,880 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 5: all great and dandy. A lot of folks do that

1181
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:25,960
Speaker 5: and run their travel ball teams. So I was like,

1182
01:01:25,960 --> 01:01:27,840
Speaker 5: I want to give my money to black and brown

1183
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:30,360
Speaker 5: trans people so they can have gender firm and care.

1184
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,640
Speaker 5: And so again born from my internal struggle of like,

1185
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,320
Speaker 5: I'm going through this thing. I know I'm not alone

1186
01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 5: in it, Excuse me, So how do I how do

1187
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 5: I give back to other people that are also going

1188
01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 5: through with the platform and the resources that I have,

1189
01:01:44,640 --> 01:01:47,720
Speaker 5: And so I partnered with the Oakland LGBT Center, which

1190
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,800
Speaker 5: is where I live up here, and we've since given

1191
01:01:50,840 --> 01:01:54,440
Speaker 5: away like giving them grants and are like directly impacting

1192
01:01:54,440 --> 01:01:57,160
Speaker 5: affecting people getting access to the gender firm and care

1193
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 5: they need, which is like I will just fall crying

1194
01:02:00,440 --> 01:02:02,520
Speaker 5: because it's life changing and to feel good in your

1195
01:02:02,520 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 5: body and to get like the hardest decision should be

1196
01:02:06,040 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 5: oh okay, like I want this surgery or I need

1197
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 5: this affirmation, but then you have to go through so

1198
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 5: many hoops and buckery essentially to actually get the care

1199
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 5: that you need. And so my foundation is focused on

1200
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 5: like getting people that those funds and that access as

1201
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:22,560
Speaker 5: easily as possible.

1202
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I don't think most people are aware of

1203
01:02:25,160 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 2: like how expensive this gender affirming care actually is, and

1204
01:02:29,000 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: I my guess is that a lot of healthcare providers

1205
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,760
Speaker 2: do not cover you know, a lot of it.

1206
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, we have to go out a network. Or I

1207
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:40,240
Speaker 5: wanted a black surgeon because I went to a surgeon

1208
01:02:40,280 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 5: that could not tell me anything about melanated skin, Like, well,

1209
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:46,400
Speaker 5: I was asking them questions like how are we we

1210
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:49,160
Speaker 5: scar differently? Or am I going to keyloid? And they're like, oh,

1211
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:52,080
Speaker 5: like so I actually went out of network in order

1212
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 5: to get a black surgeon, so I still got even

1213
01:02:54,200 --> 01:02:56,520
Speaker 5: less of it covered. To say. Factor that part of

1214
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 5: it in getting gender firming care with all the layers

1215
01:02:59,240 --> 01:03:01,560
Speaker 5: of all the people that we are. And that's another

1216
01:03:01,600 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 5: factor too.

1217
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:06,560
Speaker 2: All right, Well, I end every podcast with what I

1218
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: call the messy question.

1219
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 1: This is where we make some headlines.

1220
01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 5: Latsh.

1221
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,360
Speaker 1: This is how I'm good. All right.

1222
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 2: If I haven't already asked you enough questions, you got

1223
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 2: you got more in you.

1224
01:03:21,400 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 1: I know that you do. So here's the messy question.

1225
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 2: Okay, who is the most irritating player in the NBA

1226
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,680
Speaker 2: from a basketball standpoint for you to guard? I mean, like,

1227
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:34,320
Speaker 2: who is the player that when you saw you had

1228
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 2: the gartham of that night of that day, like, damn

1229
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:38,040
Speaker 2: not her tonight?

1230
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: Who is it.

1231
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 5: Annoying? Irritated? Oh? Oh, it's probably Jewe Lloyd because you

1232
01:03:45,160 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 5: can't touch her. It was jeweloid last year. You touch

1233
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,520
Speaker 5: her and they blowed the West. So I'm like, okay, fine, fine, fine.

1234
01:03:50,760 --> 01:03:52,520
Speaker 5: I was happy as a black person at least I'll

1235
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 5: give her that. I was like, all right, we got

1236
01:03:54,440 --> 01:03:57,640
Speaker 5: a black person who's untouchable. I'm happy, But I.

1237
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: Was that was there some thing that Juel does that.

1238
01:04:02,720 --> 01:04:04,000
Speaker 2: You know, she just gets all the calls.

1239
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 1: Is that what it is? She gets a lot of calls.

1240
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, she gets calls. Jewel is. Actually she's so good

1241
01:04:08,480 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 5: at kind of you have to hot stover and I

1242
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 5: like to play physical, So she anytime you're arm in her,

1243
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:16,160
Speaker 5: she's gonna rip through and draw the foul. She's gonna

1244
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:17,919
Speaker 5: get to her shot going left. I'm trying to force

1245
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 5: the right. So she she's smart. She knows all the trickeries.

1246
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 5: They don't call her the mama for anything. So playing her,

1247
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:26,600
Speaker 5: I'm like, Okay, I want to play physical, but I

1248
01:04:26,640 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 5: can't foul. But I'm playing a person who knows I

1249
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 5: like to play physical and it's going to try and

1250
01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:33,040
Speaker 5: draw fouls on me. So it's that kind of chest

1251
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:35,440
Speaker 5: matt and then she's just good at the end of

1252
01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:37,320
Speaker 5: the day. So it was really fun for me. It

1253
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,120
Speaker 5: was also like, all right, she I can't I can't

1254
01:04:41,120 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 5: bump her, she can't take no context like that level

1255
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:43,720
Speaker 5: of like.

1256
01:04:46,360 --> 01:04:49,720
Speaker 2: Oh, follow up, who's the player that you felt like

1257
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 2: you most came close to swinging.

1258
01:04:51,280 --> 01:05:00,600
Speaker 5: All Alyssa thommas she I be She get said a

1259
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 5: lot not the first no no when I knocked her

1260
01:05:05,520 --> 01:05:07,320
Speaker 5: down against Connecticut. I was like, oh, I'm not to

1261
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,880
Speaker 5: step over. She's gonna be pissed, and she was. And

1262
01:05:09,920 --> 01:05:11,760
Speaker 5: then that's when me, Aaron Demana got into it, and

1263
01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 5: I'm walking for Umana. I was like, okay, it's a

1264
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:14,600
Speaker 5: whole family affair. Now.

1265
01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 2: Well, these are the memories you are left with now

1266
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:25,600
Speaker 2: you are og retired. I know that must feel strange

1267
01:05:25,600 --> 01:05:28,720
Speaker 2: to say, because you're still young, you know, and you're

1268
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:31,320
Speaker 2: you're already retired. But I just want to thank you

1269
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 2: so much for joining me and as always, for your activism,

1270
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:40,000
Speaker 2: your candor, and for just being so fearless. And I

1271
01:05:40,040 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 2: know the fearlessness comes with a cost, and it's the

1272
01:05:42,680 --> 01:05:43,800
Speaker 2: cost that people don't see.

1273
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: But nevertheless, you know, you are.

1274
01:05:48,200 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 2: Very much speaking for a lot of people who right

1275
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 2: now are under attack, who are feeling unwanted, who are

1276
01:05:56,120 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 2: feeling as if their country is turning against them. So

1277
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:03,480
Speaker 2: I'm sure hearing and seeing you boldly take the position

1278
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:04,439
Speaker 2: that you have has been.

1279
01:06:04,400 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 1: Very impactful for them.

1280
01:06:06,360 --> 01:06:08,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you, I appreciate you.

1281
01:06:09,240 --> 01:06:10,760
Speaker 1: All right, take care of retiring.

1282
01:06:14,520 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 2: One more segment to go coming up next, the final spin.

1283
01:06:28,200 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 1: Time for the final spin.

1284
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:33,280
Speaker 2: This week's topic the Memphis Grizzlies trading Desmond Banged to

1285
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 2: the Orlando Magic. The spin the Magic got fleeced. Now

1286
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 2: the truth Orlando did the right thing. Now on his face,

1287
01:06:41,440 --> 01:06:43,560
Speaker 2: it seems like the Magic gave up a lot a

1288
01:06:43,600 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 2: twenty twenty six pick swap the highest spot of the

1289
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:50,280
Speaker 2: Magic Suns or Wizards, two unprotected first round picks in

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Speaker 2: eight and twenty thirty, and a twenty twenty nine first rounder.

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01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:56,720
Speaker 1: But with emerging superstar Apolo Ben, Carrol.

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01:06:56,520 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 2: Mol Wagner, and now Bang, the Magic are thinking there'll

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01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 2: be a playoff team for the next four to five years,

1294
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:04,720
Speaker 2: so most of those first round picks Memphis received they

1295
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:07,480
Speaker 2: won't be in the lottery, at least they hope. They're

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01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:09,960
Speaker 2: also looking at how wide open the East could potentially

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01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:13,600
Speaker 2: be next season. Bain is a good player, and more importantly,

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01:07:13,640 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 2: he will dramatically improve Orlando's offense, especially when it comes

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01:07:17,720 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 2: to three point shooting. Now, I don't know if the

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01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:22,360
Speaker 2: Magic won the trade, but this is one of those

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01:07:22,400 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 2: trades that's going to look a lot better over the

1302
01:07:25,440 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 2: course of the next two season. Pay attention now. This

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01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 2: concludes another episode as politics. Make sure you get at

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01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,040
Speaker 2: me on social media or email. I'm at Jamil Hill

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01:07:35,080 --> 01:07:38,959
Speaker 2: across all social media platforms Twitter, Instagram, Fan based, Blue Sky,

1306
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:42,600
Speaker 2: and threads. Please use the hashtags politics. If you have

1307
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:45,040
Speaker 2: a question for me. You also have the option of

1308
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:48,560
Speaker 2: emailing me at Politics twenty twenty four at gmail dot com.

1309
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 2: You can also video me a question, but please make

1310
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,000
Speaker 2: sure your video is thirty seconds or less. Now, don't

1311
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 2: forget to follow politics and subscribe to s Politics on

1312
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 2: iHeart and follows Politics PI on Instagram and TikTok.

1313
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: Politics is spelled s p O L I t I

1314
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:05,080
Speaker 1: c S.

1315
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 2: A new episode of Spolitics drops every Thursday on iHeart Podcasts,

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01:08:09,440 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts.

1317
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 1: Or wherever you get your podcasts.

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01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 2: This is politics where sports and politics don't just mix,

1319
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:17,280
Speaker 2: They matter.

1320
01:08:22,840 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 1: Politics is the.

1321
01:08:23,600 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 2: Production of iHeart Podcasts and The Unbothered Network. I'm your

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01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 2: host Jamel Hill. Executive producer is Taylor Chakoigne. Lucas Hymen

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01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 2: is head of audio and executive producer. Original music for

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Speaker 2: Spolitics provided by Kyle Visz from wiz Fx.