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Speaker 1: M intro. I'm Robert Evans. This is behind the Bastard Show.

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Speaker 1: We'll tell you about the bad people you don't know

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Speaker 1: enough about or you want to know more about. That's

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Speaker 1: the show. That's the show. Okay, Today my guest is

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Speaker 1: Jamie Loftus. Hi, Jamie eating a salad Loftus Jamie, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: eating a salad. I can already anticipate all the furious

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Speaker 1: comments that I'll get to dip into about my what's

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Speaker 1: the word my mesophonia? Really yeah, anytime anyone ever eats

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Speaker 1: on Mike, there's nine comments about like mymusophonia. I can't

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Speaker 1: listen to someone eating. And I was like, this is

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Speaker 1: the smallest problem. Well, you've hit upon a secret, which

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Speaker 1: is the secret bastard of this episode, like the thing

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Speaker 1: I'm blaming everything on. Yeah, no, you are a working

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Speaker 1: person and uh to all my us, I've eat a

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Speaker 1: lot of deritos. Show that's true. I mean, but that's

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Speaker 1: a satisfying a some are induced crunch It is, well,

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Speaker 1: it is, but so is the satisfying taste of a

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Speaker 1: I don't I can't find a brand on your salad.

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Speaker 1: You should brand. You don't know what it is frustrating

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Speaker 1: there's not enough. There's not enough visibility with this salad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: speaking of branding today, we're talking about one of the

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Speaker 1: all time great branders up until about a year and

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Speaker 1: a half ago, Elizabeth Holmes. Holmes. Man, she's gone mainstream.

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Speaker 1: E home me. It's gonna be any Holmes connection here.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy how quickly she has become a central, like

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Speaker 1: a focus of the world. It seemed to happen very quickly. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it really all kicked off in about like fourteen is

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Speaker 1: kind of when she blew onto the stage. That was

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Speaker 1: when I became a stand That's what you were. You

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Speaker 1: were you stand here for a while I was. I

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Speaker 1: was a stand. Yeah. Um, and there's elements of her

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Speaker 1: that I still stand a little bit changed my mind. No,

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Speaker 1: you know what, what what we'll get into what she

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Speaker 1: is later. Let's let's start by talking about her backstory

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Speaker 1: a little bit here. Let's I love a story of wealth,

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Speaker 1: a story of wealth and privilege and and what I

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Speaker 1: will call I will say her ethnicity is rich like

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Speaker 1: she's she she's she's of that background. I'll talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit more about that later. To so. Elizabeth Ann

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Speaker 1: Holmes was born on February three in Washington, d C.

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Speaker 1: Her father was Christian Holmes the Fourth, which might key

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Speaker 1: you in on the fact that her family was rich

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Speaker 1: as ship, which I wrote down before you spoiled that

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Speaker 1: care for her audience. I just didn't I didn't head

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Speaker 1: at it, so listen. I'm sorry for spoilers. I'm just

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Speaker 1: so excited to talk about Elizabeth. I know, I know

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Speaker 1: you're very your big your big stand. I'm a big stand.

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Speaker 1: I play her on stage a lot. I know you do. Ye. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you've got a great lab coat. I've got it. I

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Speaker 1: don't wear a lab coat. Now. It's the it's the

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Speaker 1: it's the turtle turtleneck. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of the

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Speaker 1: iconic look, the turtleneck and the bad hair. That's something

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Speaker 1: that we have in common. What the frizzy hair. I mean,

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Speaker 1: she needs to like her whole thing. And I know that,

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Speaker 1: you know, we come down harder own women because of

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Speaker 1: their appearance. But it's like there could have been an

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Speaker 1: instructional on how to use a hair straightener more responsibly.

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Speaker 1: I guess I never Okay, it's neither here nor It's

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Speaker 1: crazy how many billionaires have split ends. It's like, get

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Speaker 1: it the fun together. I guess I never noticed that,

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Speaker 1: but like, I never do anything to my hair, and

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Speaker 1: I always look like a fucking You have infinitely better

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Speaker 1: hair than Elizabeth Holmes's due to eat Holmes, I know,

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Speaker 1: and to oll money. So her great great great grandfather,

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Speaker 1: the first Christian Holmes, was a World War One veteran

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Speaker 1: inventor and a surgeon. Part of the University of Cincinnati

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Speaker 1: Medical Center is named after him, and he seems to

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Speaker 1: have been a legitimately impressive dude. The family fortune, however,

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Speaker 1: went back further than that, to an ancestor named Charles

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Speaker 1: Louis Fleischman, Hungarian immigrant who founded the Fleischman Yeast Company

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Speaker 1: back in the eighteen hundreds. So I forgot she was

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Speaker 1: a Yeah, she's a yeast of fortune, which is too

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Speaker 1: on the nose. If you're I gotta say, like, if

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Speaker 1: like a rich a rich girl going to private school,

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Speaker 1: having your money come from a used for that's a

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Speaker 1: cross to bear, that's a that's a real like hashtag

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Speaker 1: girl boss. Yeah yeah, yeah. Now, pretty much regardless of

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Speaker 1: where you live, you can walk into a grocery store

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Speaker 1: and pick up a packet of Flishman's bread yeast. I

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Speaker 1: actually used to use it when I was eighteen, nineteen

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Speaker 1: and twenty to ferment hobo jug wine in my garage.

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Speaker 1: In other words, Elizabeth Holmes is descended from America's greatest hero.

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Speaker 1: Only costs like a dollar, so you can make a

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Speaker 1: lot of really cheap gut wrought wine with it. Is

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Speaker 1: it just like a kool Aid package style of kool

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Speaker 1: Aid packet style. I wonder where kind of font work

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Speaker 1: they've gotten. Just you just put sugar in a bucket

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Speaker 1: with water, some Flishman's bread yeast, stick an airlock on

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Speaker 1: that fucker. Let it sit two weeks. Then you can

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Speaker 1: get wasted for like four dollars. You can get like

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Speaker 1: a room full of people wasted for four dollars. We

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Speaker 1: used to brew thirty or so gallons at a time

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Speaker 1: and get like huge groups of people drunk on this

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Speaker 1: like terrible, terrible, terrible. Yeah no, because we would get

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Speaker 1: like canned um frozen, like like you get those candle

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Speaker 1: concentrated orange juice and stuff, dumped like five of those

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Speaker 1: into a five gallon bucket, and we do like six

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Speaker 1: of those at a time Fleishman's bread yeast making the

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Speaker 1: fucking yeast, and then you'd get to like six or

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Speaker 1: seven percent alcohol. So you can get you get like

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Speaker 1: a five gallon bucket of that. You can ruin some period. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can really ruin some lives and break up some

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Speaker 1: marriages that way. You remind me at the end of

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Speaker 1: the story, I'll tell you how we used Fleishman's bread

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Speaker 1: yeast to murder the Flash when I was twenty year old.

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, alright, So so this is some good uh,

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Speaker 1: some good utilitarian yeast, great yeast. Good. We're not we're

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Speaker 1: not against the yeast. Well, listen, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: situations in which easter is not welcome. This yeast is

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Speaker 1: very welcome. This okay, this is welcome yeast. I like

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Speaker 1: their font I just had to look at solid. They've

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Speaker 1: clearly been added a while. Yeah. So in this CEO

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Speaker 1: was out for blood. The two thousand fourteen Fortune article

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Speaker 1: that ignited public interest in Elizabeth Holmes and Paranos. Her

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Speaker 1: father was described as a man who quote has devoted

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Speaker 1: most of his life to public minded government so of

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Speaker 1: US disaster relief in Africa, international development projects in China,

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Speaker 1: environmental work in this country, and is currently the Global

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Speaker 1: Water Coordinator for the US Agency for International Development. He

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Speaker 1: met Elizabeth's mother Noel on Capitol Hill, where she worked

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Speaker 1: as a Congressional Committee staffer. That's his parents distinguished, distinguished

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Speaker 1: it some distinguished ship. Depending on who you hear from,

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Speaker 1: you'll run into two very different pictures of her childhood.

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Speaker 1: In early interviews, Elizabeth would claim that her famous great

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Speaker 1: great great granddad's example was her earliest motivation. She read

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Speaker 1: a biography of him when she was a little kid,

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Speaker 1: and later told fortune he ultimately worked himself to death,

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Speaker 1: but he was so passionate in what he did. I wondered,

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Speaker 1: would I want to be a doctor. Since her family

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Speaker 1: was rich and connected as fu, some of her family

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Speaker 1: friends were able to arrange for her to watch surgeries

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Speaker 1: in order to see if she really wanted to get

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Speaker 1: into medicine as a career. Wait, how when she was

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Speaker 1: how old? I think when she was like a like

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Speaker 1: a kid and like like like grade school, you're going

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Speaker 1: to watch surgeries? Yeah you can do that, ship? Why not?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I wouldn't let a child do that. Man,

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Speaker 1: if I ever have kid, that's what they're doing from

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Speaker 1: day one. They're watching straight up, no kindergarten, no first grade,

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Speaker 1: just surgeries. They're going to theaters and it's just you're

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Speaker 1: gonna be sitting in that ore you watch them take

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Speaker 1: that gall bladder out. It would be do you think

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Speaker 1: when they had like surgeries like in theaters that you

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Speaker 1: could like have your own box. They're like wasted, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: like cheer people be like just kill him. I would

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Speaker 1: love to like pop a couple of oxy and like

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Speaker 1: a bottles of steel reserve and then like smoke a

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Speaker 1: cigar and watch a surgery and Michael someone getting gall

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Speaker 1: bladder ship talk the surgeon call that a fucking incision,

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Speaker 1: fucking foul. Just some Niley stuff. You can make a

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Speaker 1: lot of money selling that as a business, Like poor

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Speaker 1: people get free surgeries and the rich get drunk and

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Speaker 1: heckle them. I feel like that's like America is ready

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Speaker 1: for that was it. We're reaching a point in society

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Speaker 1: where I feel like that may in fact be welcome.

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Speaker 1: We just need to find a way to add some

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Speaker 1: sort of We had to add the cloud to it

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Speaker 1: to make it seem vague le tech adjacent. It's got

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Speaker 1: to have that twitch thing where everyone can comment while

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Speaker 1: the surgery is going exactly or like a Facebook live

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Speaker 1: stream where it's like very heart for kill him. We

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Speaker 1: get five likes in the next hour, the surgeon will

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Speaker 1: dab before Yeah. If we get one thousand, like, the

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Speaker 1: surgeon will not perform surgery. He'll chug a forty. You

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Speaker 1: can just kill people, fok oh as well make it

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Speaker 1: that direct, rather than like nuts killing people on Facebook

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Speaker 1: and using their platform to spread it. Just have Facebook. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: now you can just kill cut out the middleman. Let's

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Speaker 1: just do what we were trying to do the whole time.

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Speaker 1: This has gotten off the rails a little bit well.

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Speaker 1: So Elizabeth claims that she did not enjoy watching surgeries.

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Speaker 1: She was utterly revolted by the side of blood and

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Speaker 1: developed a phobia of it. Quote. The concept of sticking

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Speaker 1: a needle into you and sucking your blood out, Home says,

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Speaker 1: has always been profoundly disturbing to her. As a child,

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Speaker 1: She says, when I knew I needed to get a test,

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Speaker 1: I would really be focused on that for weeks in advance.

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Speaker 1: She had a real big thing about blood, which I

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Speaker 1: guess a lot of people do. I've never had any.

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Speaker 1: I was sick as a kid, so I just grew

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Speaker 1: up used to it. But I guess a lot of

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Speaker 1: people like that. I've always been very squeamish with stuff

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Speaker 1: like that you had leeches on your body at one point.

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Speaker 1: I've had leeches on my body at one point. I'm

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Speaker 1: all about immersion therapy. Yeah, okay, yeah, but I don't

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Speaker 1: like blood. I can't like watch Gray's Anatomy. I can't either,

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Speaker 1: but for totally different reasons because I hate surgery and

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Speaker 1: I hate sex, my two at least favorite things. I

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Speaker 1: hate sex and I love surgery. That well, there's plenty

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Speaker 1: of shows for you, a million shows for you. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I just watch House and touch myself all night long.

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Speaker 1: It's great. When she was nine, Elizabeth's dad took a

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Speaker 1: private sector gig with Tinnaco, a giant automotive equipment manufacturer.

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Speaker 1: The family moved from DC to Houston. Christian Homes the

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Speaker 1: fourth felt bad about forcing his children, Elizabeth and Christian

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Speaker 1: Homes the fifth, to move to Texas, which is a

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Speaker 1: reasonable way to feel about moving your children to Texas.

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Speaker 1: But like, rich white people in Houston are like chaotic evil,

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Speaker 1: Like they're fine. I mean, I don't want to throw

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Speaker 1: too much shade on Hugh because I have a lot

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Speaker 1: of friends there, but I know that I don't know anything.

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Speaker 1: I don't know anyone in Houston. It's like if you

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Speaker 1: built a city the density of downtown l A, but

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Speaker 1: on a swamp. Interesting. Yeah, how does that affect you

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Speaker 1: as a person? Well, I see you'd rather not say

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Speaker 1: it's not my favorite city, but other people like it

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Speaker 1: quite a lot, right now? Uh? Yes, Christian Homes. The

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Speaker 1: fourth was really concerned about moving as gets to Texas.

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth tried to reassure her dad by sending him a

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Speaker 1: letter assuring him, quote, I love adventures. She says she

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Speaker 1: was excited to move to Texas because it was big

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Speaker 1: on science. Which might be the most glaring misconception about

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Speaker 1: Texas that I have ever heard is that Elizabeth Holmes's

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Speaker 1: biggest lot. Yeah like that right there. Nothing comes close

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Speaker 1: to that. I have had more people that I can

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Speaker 1: account explain to me angrily that the world is six

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Speaker 1: thousand years old in Texas, So I do not get

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Speaker 1: that anyway. In every interview that Elizabeth has ever given,

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Speaker 1: basically she's made sure the interview reported on the first

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Speaker 1: sentence that she wrote in that letter to her dad, quote,

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Speaker 1: what I really want out of life is to discover

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Speaker 1: something new, something mankind didn't know was possible. To do.

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Speaker 1: So this is the homes approved version of the story.

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Speaker 1: It's the one most reporters and journalists and quote unquote

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Speaker 1: journalists reported or repeated in superpositive articles about Holmes and

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Speaker 1: Thereinos back in two thousand and fourteen. But it is

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Speaker 1: not the only version of her story. Dr Richard Fuse

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Speaker 1: is a psychiatrist who has known Elizabeth and her family

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Speaker 1: since she was a wee little child. He also got

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Speaker 1: embroiled in a gigantic, nasty lawsuit with Thearinos over a

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Speaker 1: patent issue in two thousand eleven. The whole thing was

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Speaker 1: a nightmare for his family and kind of tore his

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Speaker 1: life apart for years. It cost him five million dollars.

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Speaker 1: So Fuse is the furthest thing in the world from

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Speaker 1: an unbiased, objective commenter on the life of Elizabeth Holmes.

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Speaker 1: But a number of other people's stories back up things

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Speaker 1: that he says. So he also grew up like she

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Speaker 1: grew up alongside him. So he's got he's got some perspective.

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Speaker 1: I believe some things he says. I'm more questioning about others.

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Speaker 1: Um So here are some excerpts from a poorly written

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Speaker 1: Forbes article that interviewed Fuse about Holmes's background. Sorry but

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Speaker 1: poorly written Forbes. I know this is the only one quote.

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Speaker 1: A few said that Elizabeth's parents were striving to improve

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Speaker 1: their position in the world. As he said quote the

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Speaker 1: Holmes family parents were Christian in a well where our

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Speaker 1: neighbors in Virginia. They were very political and aspired to

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Speaker 1: use their Washington connections to get money. Our kids grew

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Speaker 1: up with their kids. They were jealous of our family.

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Speaker 1: I was a physician who had many patients and made

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Speaker 1: money off of them. And New Arabic. Okay, it seems

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Speaker 1: like a lot of bragging about a lot of bragging.

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Speaker 1: He seems like that kind of guy. A few says

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Speaker 1: that holmes mother tried to push Elizabeth to be like him.

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Speaker 1: Dr Richard Fuse quote, Noel programmed Elizabeth to be like

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Speaker 1: me and Vinton learn a language. I'm a psychiatrist and

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Speaker 1: a family practitioner and would tell a father and mother

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Speaker 1: not to treat their child that way. She'll be what

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Speaker 1: she'll be. Don't drive her into something she doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to do. And the pictures I have with our family,

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Speaker 1: she's withdrawn. She's always pulled to the side and was

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Speaker 1: not naturally a motive as a child. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I mean I I I'm always had Like if you

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Speaker 1: think about like how your neighbor would describe you as

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Speaker 1: a child, Like if if Kevin O'Connell, the retired Brockton

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Speaker 1: cop or, did describe me as a child and presented

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Speaker 1: like twenty years later as canon. I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: don't I don't love he did that. Yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: love it either. It's also though that like we have

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Speaker 1: the stuff that she approved and told journalists, and we

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Speaker 1: have the other side of this from this other guy.

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Speaker 1: So I'm going to present you with both and with

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Speaker 1: some other stuff in between. Yeah, because because her like

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Speaker 1: approved story is so myfic it is, and so like

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Speaker 1: you have to try to anyway, I'm going to present

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Speaker 1: a number of different totally like to attempt and again,

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Speaker 1: like Fuse is obviously the most biased source we have

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Speaker 1: on Holmes's background, but he also knew her her whole life.

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Speaker 1: How many more times does he say he's a physician.

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Speaker 1: It gets a little bit less pretentious after that. Um okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So the book Bad Blood by John Carrew provides It's

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Speaker 1: a really good book, provides additional context who Holmes his

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Speaker 1: childhood ambition. It paints a picture somewhere between how Holmes

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Speaker 1: wanted to be known to fortune and how Dr Fuse

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Speaker 1: paints her quote. When she was nine or ten, one

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Speaker 1: of her relatives asked her at a family gathering the

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Speaker 1: question every boy and girl was asked, sooner orly, what

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Speaker 1: do you want to do when you grow up? Without

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Speaker 1: skipping a beat, Elizabeth replied, I want to be a billionaire.

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Speaker 1: Wouldn't you rather be president? The relative asked, no, the

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Speaker 1: president will marry me because I'll have a billion dollars.

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Speaker 1: These were not the idle words of a child. Elizabeth

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Speaker 1: uttered them with the utmost seriousness and determination. According to

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Speaker 1: a family member who witnessed the scene, so cool was

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Speaker 1: the baby? Yeah, I mean I just a billionaire. The

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Speaker 1: way people build up people's childhood stories is always so

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Speaker 1: weird to me, like anyone could have been. Like Jamie

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Speaker 1: told us that she was going to like marry Daniel Radcliffe,

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Speaker 1: and she sounded pretty fucking serious about it, like when

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Speaker 1: I was like nine or ten years old. For me,

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Speaker 1: it would be Robert wanted to make dinosaurs like in

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Speaker 1: the Park books, and that's the only thing he talked

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Speaker 1: about is becoming a scientist. You really wanted to make

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Speaker 1: some fucking dinosaurs, and I still do. If I ever

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Speaker 1: get a billion dollars, all of it's going to the President,

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Speaker 1: will marry you and then the dinosaur thing. God, I

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Speaker 1: just think about his his warm, rasping lips on my

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Speaker 1: on the back of my neck, and Jamie nothing my

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Speaker 1: heart more than I mean, we will feel bad Ford

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Speaker 1: about you. I know what, you know what play's got

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Speaker 1: to play. That's true, That's what I'm gonna It's true.

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Speaker 1: Carrierew's interviews with people who knew Holmes as a child

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Speaker 1: revealed that she was a huge fan of Monopoly and

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Speaker 1: was famously competitive at the game. One of those people

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Speaker 1: who demands you actually finished the game, even once it

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Speaker 1: becomes clear that they're going to win, because you can't

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Speaker 1: roll the die without landing on one of their properties.

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Speaker 1: She usually won, but when she lost, she would run

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Speaker 1: off in a huff. Carrierew notes that more than once

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Speaker 1: she ran through the screen of the condos front door.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's pretty Yeah, that's very like that one.

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Speaker 1: I believe because that both sounds like someone who grows

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Speaker 1: up to do what she did, and also sounds like

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Speaker 1: a nine year old just sounds like a child who

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Speaker 1: isn't totally sure how to deal with failure at Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In those early funding articles, a lot of hay was

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Speaker 1: made out of the fact that Elizabeth Holmes learned to

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Speaker 1: speak Mandarin while she was young, during a study abroad

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Speaker 1: well before and during a a broad program in China.

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Speaker 1: Fortune article made it sound incredibly impressive. Quote Elizabeth and

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Speaker 1: her brother, who was now director of product management at

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Speaker 1: Thearanous totally above board there had both been intrigued by

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Speaker 1: their father's work in China. So when Elizabeth was about

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Speaker 1: nine and her parents found them both a tutor to

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Speaker 1: teach the Mandarin on Saturdays. Elizabeth been supplanted those lessons

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Speaker 1: with summer language programs at Stanford and later at two

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Speaker 1: universities in Beijing. Captivated by computer programming in high school,

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Speaker 1: she was struck by how the Chinese university's information technology

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Speaker 1: facilities lagged behind what she was used. To rectify that situation,

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Speaker 1: she started her first business while still in high school,

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Speaker 1: selling C plus plus compilers to Chinese universities. So it

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Speaker 1: always starts with like a weird early scam. One of

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Speaker 1: my favorite um because I have like vested interest in

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Speaker 1: girl bloss scammers, right, And one of my favorite examples

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Speaker 1: of that is Lisa Frank in college, like the Unicorn

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Speaker 1: art weird Things and stuff, all the trapper Keepers. She

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Speaker 1: started by um like basically stealing art and design from

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Speaker 1: Native American artists and selling them at an uptick and

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Speaker 1: then like later based a lot of her designs installed.

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Speaker 1: Like it's just like there's always like an early scam. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's always with everyone, I mean, of all genders. It's

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Speaker 1: always like a proto scam. Same with John McAfee if

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Speaker 1: you go back and he was like, yeah, they always

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, no one's gonna say anything, Okay, cool,

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Speaker 1: moving along. That's why they get good enough to do

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Speaker 1: billion and multimillion dollar scams is because they start when

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Speaker 1: they're fucking twelve. I mean there's even like a case

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Speaker 1: to be made for like Billy McFarland doing something like

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Speaker 1: that where the Firefest guy. Yeah, yeah, like you're just

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Speaker 1: dipping your toe and like, oh, no one's checking. Great,

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Speaker 1: Let's see how far we can Yeah, how much further

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Speaker 1: can we can we push this? Liz you rascal, you

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Speaker 1: rascal so uh fuses recollections make that period of her

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Speaker 1: life sound like it's at best a little bit inflated.

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Speaker 1: He alleges that she was enrolled in the Study Abroad

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Speaker 1: program as a backdoor into Stanford. Quote. She was a

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Speaker 1: fair student with low grades. Her parents had heard through

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Speaker 1: their channels that she could improve her chances if she

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Speaker 1: took a summer program there and learned a language while

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Speaker 1: in high cool, they put her into summer program at

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Speaker 1: Stanford to study Mandarin. Now, Carrie Row's book makes it

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Speaker 1: sound a little better than that. According to his reporting,

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Speaker 1: she talked her way into the Stanford summer program um.

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Speaker 1: Whatever the truth, she eventually went abroad to China to

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Speaker 1: continue her studies. Fuse does not believe she thrived there. Quote,

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth would call the house from China crying. Noel would

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Speaker 1: take the calls from Elizabeth and asked my ex wife

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Speaker 1: to pick up. Elizabeth said, the people are dirty, the

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Speaker 1: hotel is filthy, and I want to come home. But

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Speaker 1: Noel would tell her to stop complaining and get with

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Speaker 1: the program. Okay, so it sounds like a Brady Rich

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Speaker 1: kid abroad. Brady Rich kid abroad. I'm not sure what

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Speaker 1: to make of her Mandarin. Some people say she was

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Speaker 1: good at it. But it's one of those things like

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Speaker 1: like Mark Zuckerberg learned Mandarin, and you you hear reports

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Speaker 1: from my Chinese people that like, yeah, you know, he's

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Speaker 1: not great, but like he's able to hold a conversation

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Speaker 1: and stuff, like he's got like a basic level and

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Speaker 1: that's impressive because it's really hard to learn. I haven't

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Speaker 1: run into any Chinese people commenting on Elizabeth Holmes's level

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Speaker 1: of Mandarin. I mean, does she have really much of

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Speaker 1: a history in that country other than like early in

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Speaker 1: her life. Not really. She went there several times and stuff.

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Speaker 1: That's where she met Sonny because that was like a yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like he's like, oh, you speak Mandarin high. I'm all

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Speaker 1: a lot of people first, And that's part of why

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Speaker 1: I'm a little questioning about how good she was at it,

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Speaker 1: because like everyone who's impressed by her Mandarin is a

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Speaker 1: person who doesn't speak Mandarin. Right, It's like I know

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Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg because like I don't like Mark Zuckerberg, but

400
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Speaker 1: I know he's acquired an impressive level of it because

401
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Speaker 1: Chinese people are like, yeah, I know he was able

402
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Speaker 1: to give a speech and in China he does a

403
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Speaker 1: lot of work in China. He married a Chinese woman,

404
00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,640
Speaker 1: like he put in the time, I don't know about home.

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Speaker 1: He is a hero. He's a hero here. He wore

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Speaker 1: a tie for a whole year during the financial collapse.

407
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, what so gross? Stand nobody can god that

408
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 1: chinless dork. I'm sure he has like a thirty thousand

409
00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: square foot house because no one and his family wants

410
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Speaker 1: to be that close to him either. Do you think

411
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Speaker 1: that he has one of those bitcoin ties like that

412
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Speaker 1: guy in the Elizabeth homes HBO documentary. Depending on we

413
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Speaker 1: got to talk about the bitcoin tie guy, I'm gonna

414
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Speaker 1: fight him, and I'm gonna if you wear a bitcoin tie,

415
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,199
Speaker 1: who then do you think you are? What are you

416
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,280
Speaker 1: playing at? Motherfucker? Yeah? What's your fucking game here? Also,

417
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Speaker 1: I want you are the only person I would let

418
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Speaker 1: be on if when they do the documentary about all

419
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Speaker 1: the scams I'm running, I will be offended. You don't

420
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Speaker 1: wear a bitcoin time, you know, wear a bitcoin tie

421
00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 1: and just like, yeah, we had no idea. I'm going

422
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,960
Speaker 1: to play very dumb with the nasty ty shirt that

423
00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,360
Speaker 1: you're wearing. Yeah, and then I'll just and then I'd

424
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Speaker 1: be like Robert was always saying the earth is flat.

425
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Speaker 1: I don't know why everyone's so surprised it is, though. Okay, So,

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Speaker 1: given the recent revelations about rich families paying millions of

427
00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:41,679
Speaker 1: dollars to find ways to sneak your kids in the

428
00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,159
Speaker 1: fancy colleges, you might be wondering, why didn't Holmes this

429
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 1: family just pose her in the swimming pool playing fake

430
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 1: water polo to get her into Stanford. Well, it's because

431
00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:50,640
Speaker 1: that kind of scamming costs money, and by the time

432
00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:52,760
Speaker 1: she was looking to get into college, the Holmes family

433
00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: was if not really broke, then at least rich people

434
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,200
Speaker 1: broke upper middle class. Well it's more than like this

435
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 1: is what I was talking about with like ethnically rich

436
00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 1: as as opposed to like just have a lot of money,

437
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 1: Like if you're in the NFL, or you become a

438
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:08,440
Speaker 1: movie star and you get like tens of millions or

439
00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:10,840
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars, a lot of those people

440
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:12,440
Speaker 1: or you win the lottery, a lot of those people

441
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:15,840
Speaker 1: wind up broke eventually. If you're born rich, if into

442
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 1: like if if that's like really your background, your culture,

443
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,520
Speaker 1: your ethnicity, like a Yeast family, you're like a Yeast family.

444
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 1: You may never have much in the way of liquid cash,

445
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:26,760
Speaker 1: but it's impossible for you to ever be poor because

446
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 1: of the connections that you have from growing up on

447
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: a culture. Yeah, bounce back, and that's like your dad

448
00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 1: used his connections in the early aughts to get an

449
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 1: executive gig at in ron Um that did not end well,

450
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 1: and some people say Fuse included that the collapse of

451
00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: Enron basically wiped out the family fortune. Um Fuse claims

452
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 1: that when he came back after Enron failed, like that,

453
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,440
Speaker 1: he and his wife had to live in one of

454
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 1: fuses extra houses rent free because like they didn't have

455
00:21:54,640 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 1: any money after Ron. He's actually, I don't know if

456
00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:58,760
Speaker 1: you know this about him. He's a physician. He is

457
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:02,200
Speaker 1: a physician and a pschiatrists. Yeah yeah, so he actually

458
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 1: like an inventor. Yeah yeah. So anyway, whichever version of

459
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:07,919
Speaker 1: her early background you choose to believe, if we know

460
00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:09,359
Speaker 1: for a fact that in the fall of thousand to

461
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,119
Speaker 1: eighteen year old Elizabeth Holmes started at Stanford University, and

462
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: that is where we will continue from when we come

463
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 1: back from produce Bitcoin ties. Oh yeah, I mean, we

464
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,400
Speaker 1: we really were. Actually this this podcast is all to

465
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,400
Speaker 1: to advertise from my new cryptocurrency, bastard Coin. Yeah, each

466
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 1: each is we have actually like embedded a blockchain in

467
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:39,439
Speaker 1: the decomposing bones of Saddam Hussein, buried under Iraqi desert

468
00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:44,679
Speaker 1: near kirk cook Um, and so as the winds of

469
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:49,560
Speaker 1: time gradually decomposed his bones, new blockchains are created, thus

470
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:54,439
Speaker 1: releasing more Bastard coins into the coin ecosystem. See. I

471
00:22:54,440 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 1: actually knew that because if you read every four word

472
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: and Saddam Hussein's romance not well, it tells you the

473
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 1: exact location. Yeah, she did it, You did it all right. Well,

474
00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,520
Speaker 1: pick up some bastard coins. Um, you can use them

475
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: to buy drugs on the internet, like all cryptocurrency, and

476
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: check out these fine products. We're back, We're back, We're back.

477
00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:27,400
Speaker 1: Where's where's Lizzie? She's in she just started Stanford. I'm

478
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 1: sure this ends well, s Fizzle. I don't know why

479
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: I'm doing that a lot today. Elizabeth Holmes was, by

480
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 1: most accounts, a diligent student and a diligent partire. John

481
00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: Kerryrew writes, quote, Outside of the long hour she put

482
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,359
Speaker 1: in at the lab, Elizabeth led an active social life.

483
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: She attended campus parties and dated a sophomore named J. T. Batson.

484
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 1: Batson was from a small town in Georgia and was

485
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: struck by how polished in world the Elizabeth was. Though

486
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: he found her guarded, she wasn't the biggest sharer in

487
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: the world, he recalls, she played things close to the vest.

488
00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 1: She also wore a lot of vests. I don't think

489
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 1: that's what he meant there, but she she definitely wore

490
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: a lot of it. Yea, she she was a big

491
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,719
Speaker 1: vest fan, which were a lot of us. I love

492
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,199
Speaker 1: a good vest. I'm a big best guy myself, and

493
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 1: she knew how to wear a vest, and she did

494
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: know how to wear. Nobody's saying she was not dressed

495
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: well for the job. Where where is the conversations about

496
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 1: how Elizabeth Holmes could really wear a vest unlike any

497
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: other scammer. I feel like you should be on her

498
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,920
Speaker 1: legal team. Mark Zuckerberg doesn't wear a vest. No, Mark

499
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg barely wears I know, and it's just disgusting. Help

500
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: with a couple of ethnic cleansing is oh. I still

501
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: have nightmares about that episode. It's hell, It's hell. By

502
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 1: her sophomore year at Stanford, Elizabeth Holmes seems to have

503
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 1: gotten fed the hell up with college, which is understandable.

504
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: Rather than dropping out to say, smoke a ton of

505
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: weed and eventually become a podcaster, home sat down with

506
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: her chemical engineering professor Channing Robertson and said, let's start

507
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:53,520
Speaker 1: a company. Right, this is a Silicon Valley is so

508
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: confusing to me, where it's like imagine like listening to

509
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: a nine like a nineteen year old star eating a

510
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: business is a bad idea, Yeah, anything but like very

511
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: basic jobs and studying is a bad ideas, a bad idea, yeah,

512
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: and it like never ever leads to anything good. Yeah,

513
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a bad idea to like let them

514
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:19,640
Speaker 1: in the military and friends who were driving tanks at seventeen.

515
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 1: That's a bad idea. It's it's a really bad idea.

516
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 1: Like this, this is like the part of the Silicon

517
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: Valley narrative. H'm like why is this allowed? Like why

518
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: would anyone be like and this is going to end great?

519
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,880
Speaker 1: See this is again there's a government bureau. I've suggested

520
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: they should be around to like slap people in the

521
00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: face sometimes, but they should also be there just to

522
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: walk up to people in times like this, like like

523
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: someone in a suit with a badge should have come

524
00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 1: up and said, Elizabeth Holmes, No, you can't know. You

525
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 1: gotta learn science first, go wait tables for a year,

526
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,200
Speaker 1: Like do do a job that's like useful to people,

527
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 1: and you know, like isn't starting a company and getting

528
00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: millions of dollars in venture capital and learn things and

529
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 1: live in the real world for a while. Yeah, learn

530
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: how to be a person for a spell. Elizabeth. She well,

531
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,680
Speaker 1: she might have to, now, yeah, she might have to know.

532
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: That's that's that's that is enough. Yeah. Anyway, Robertson, the

533
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:15,879
Speaker 1: guy she went to the professor that she went to

534
00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: and said the started company had done seminars on drug

535
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: delivery devices, stuff like nicotine patches and even more advanced

536
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: things like small clear contact lenses that could deliver glaucoma medication.

537
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 1: Super advanced, noninvasive ways to deliver drugs. Cool stuff. Elizabeth

538
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 1: approached him with a design for a wearable patch that

539
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,879
Speaker 1: would deliver both the drug and monitor the patient's blood

540
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 1: in order to adjust the dosage of that drug. Now,

541
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 1: Robertson had only known Elizabeth Holmes for a year, and

542
00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 1: she was one of many, many, many, many, many undergrads

543
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: he'd worked with. But he told Fortune Magazine quote, I

544
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 1: knew she was different. The novelty of how she would

545
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 1: view a complex technical problem. It was unique in my experience.

546
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 1: I remember her saying, and we could put a cell

547
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: phone ship on it, and it could limit her out

548
00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: to the doctor or the patient what was going on.

549
00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: And I kind of kicked myself. I consulted in this

550
00:26:57,840 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 1: area for thirty years, but I had never said, we

551
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 1: make all these gizmos that measure and all these systems

552
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,760
Speaker 1: that deliver. But I never brought the two together. So

553
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,440
Speaker 1: he was impressed with her, with her moxie, with her inventiveness,

554
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,679
Speaker 1: but he felt that starting a medical device manufacturing company

555
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:14,959
Speaker 1: at age nineteen after probably dropping out of Stanford might

556
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: be not a great idea. And again, like not taking

557
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 1: the science classes, you know, if that would be possible

558
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,239
Speaker 1: exactly exactly you figure out. Professor would be on that

559
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:28,520
Speaker 1: fairly like anti college. But that's the sort of thing

560
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 1: that you gotta go. I think probably most people in college,

561
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 1: like the things that people should be doing in college

562
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: is like studying history and the humanities to learn why

563
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: you shouldn't let nineteen year olds run blood testing companies? Uh,

564
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 1: and also spending eight years to learn how to be

565
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: a doctor and design medical devices. Those things seem like

566
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,919
Speaker 1: you need college, You do need training. Yeah, Like you

567
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: don't need college to do what I've done, which would

568
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: just go put myself in dangerous places and right about it. No,

569
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,239
Speaker 1: and yeah, we've gotten so deeply in debt to do

570
00:27:56,440 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: things that require really like just comments. Yeah, exactly, So

571
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 1: everyone out there drop out, drop out of college, but

572
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,120
Speaker 1: don't start companies. Never start a company, or at least

573
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: not medical device companies. Start a podcast company. That's like,

574
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 1: who cares? Anyone can do that if you fail, and

575
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: we all will at some point, we all will. This

576
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,959
Speaker 1: bubble going burst. I feel it. I feel it pushing

577
00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 1: again at the surface of my skin every single morning. Yeah,

578
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: but you know it will be a fun ride for them.

579
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 1: That's just that's just the life we chose anyway. Uh.

580
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: Robertson Yeah. Um asked her why she was hel bent

581
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: on doing all this right now while she was still

582
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: a teenager. Homes responded, quote, because systems like this could

583
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,719
Speaker 1: completely revolutionize how effective health care is delivered. And this

584
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 1: is what I want to do. I don't want to

585
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 1: make an incremental change in some technology in my life.

586
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: I want to create a whole new technology, and one

587
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: that is aimed at helping humanity at all levels, regardless

588
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: of geography or ethnicity, or age or gender. I think

589
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 1: that's really important because I think that exact sentiment, whether

590
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 1: or not they've ever said it, is exactly what is

591
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: constantly going through the minds of Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk,

592
00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 1: all of these funing guy basical all of them, but

593
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: Bill Gates, like yeah, call out, no, I mean I

594
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 1: think he's he's the one who didn't like he was

595
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: he was always more of like a grounded kind of

596
00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: like like he's a decent engineer, but he's more of

597
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 1: just like he knows how to run a business, and

598
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:15,960
Speaker 1: he's like shitty like to like he's he's did a

599
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: lot of dickish things running a business, but he wasn't

600
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: like irresponsible. He was just like kind of an evil

601
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: corporate overlord. And then he dedicated his life to curing malaria.

602
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: Which yeah, it's like sure that's something you I guess

603
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: that's something I don't know. Yeah, once she gets into

604
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: like the I mean all the like the tech company

605
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: statements of grandeur of like how their technology will somehow

606
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: make the world a more equal place when it always

607
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: does the opposite. Um is freaky stuff, especially when it

608
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: comes to like uh hashtag girl boss like Elizabeth Toom's

609
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: who constantly has to like leverage her own identity as

610
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 1: a way of getting ahead. It's just so sinister and

611
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: shitty and bad. When was that line in the middle,

612
00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to make an incriminal change in some

613
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: technology like that. Why Elon Musk tried to build that

614
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: child coffin during the rescue because he's like, I don't

615
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 1: want to just like give some money to experts so

616
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: they can slowly and agonizingly, in a very unglamorous way,

617
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 1: save a dozen lives. I want to build a sexy

618
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: thing out of rocket parts, and I want there to

619
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: be like, like, you know, the old school newsreel footage

620
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,360
Speaker 1: of me emerging the hero of the situation. But no,

621
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: sometimes you just need to very slowly and laborously teach

622
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,040
Speaker 1: kids how to use breathing devices and agonizingly pull them

623
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: through tunnels to save their lives because that's what works.

624
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: And sometimes you just have to accept your own limitations

625
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: and be like, Okay, I have the money to make

626
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: this happen. Let me give money to people and not

627
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:39,720
Speaker 1: then call them. Didn't he call like one of the

628
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: rescuers theophile. I'm just like, you're just not a dozen children.

629
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,240
Speaker 1: He's like, yeah, he's a pedophile? Is this He's a

630
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: seventh grader, a man that, like the U. S. Army

631
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 1: and like the Thai navy divers were all like, oh yeah,

632
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have saved those dozen children without this guy,

633
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: fucking pedophile. It's I mean, everyone has very different opinions

634
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:08,400
Speaker 1: of Elon Musk, but there's no there's no doubt that

635
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: he is always finding new ways to embarrass himself. You know.

636
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: If he's like really an innovator, and I think more

637
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,920
Speaker 1: so than anywhere else he has innovated embarrassing yourself as

638
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: a as an adult, it's really incredible. It's just stop tweeting, man.

639
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 1: We would all still like you if you'd never use

640
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: Twitter log out, don't. Elon Musk like shouldn't be on

641
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: podcasts if he was just a guy with a cool

642
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: name who owned a rocket company, yeah, car company, I

643
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,480
Speaker 1: like him, who like got rich and did something about

644
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,640
Speaker 1: his hairline. Great, sure, good for you. Oh yeah, we

645
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: need electric cars and rockets. Fine, that's great. Stick to that.

646
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: I don't want to look at you, and I don't

647
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 1: want you to, he ruined. I used to I liked

648
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: Grimes a lot in college, and he took that we

649
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 1: all liked Grimes a lot in college. He took that

650
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: from everybody. It's painful, man, that guy. It's painful. Anyway. Yeah,

651
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: probably lost a lot of listeners from the Elon Musk shade,

652
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: but the episode on him is coming listen, I mean there.

653
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 1: I have no distinct opinion on him other than he's

654
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,080
Speaker 1: an embarrassing person. Didn't call him the PayPal Mafia for

655
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:16,240
Speaker 1: entirely good reasons. That's a really embarrassing name. Yeah, but

656
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: like the PayPal mafia, that kind of fits like it

657
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: kind of fits like in the literal sense of stealing money.

658
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 1: I look forward to that episode. Yeah, well we'll talk

659
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 1: about that. So um Robertson told Fortune that when Elizabeth

660
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: Holmes said this thing about not wanting to do incremental

661
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,360
Speaker 1: change was the moment he realized what Elizabeth was. I

662
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: realized I could have just as well been looking into

663
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 1: the eyes of a Steve Jobs or a Bill Gates.

664
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: And I do think he was half right there. But

665
00:32:43,280 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 1: we'll get to that later. He was looking in the

666
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: eyes of a shameless capitalist just to Steve Jobs. Steve

667
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: Jobs was a type of shameless capitalist. But she, I

668
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: think she's the exact same kind of person to Steve Jobs.

669
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: I don't think that was all in act. She yeah,

670
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that a little bit. Um. Elizabeth decided

671
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: that come Heller high Water, she was going to start

672
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 1: her own damn company. She announced this to her father

673
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: during a break from classes. He was not happy to

674
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 1: hear that she was dropping out, and he urged her

675
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: to finish her degree. She responded, no, Dad, I'm not

676
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: interested in getting a PhD. I want to make money.

677
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:15,880
Speaker 1: In the spring of her sophomore year, she broke up

678
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: with her boyfriend, explaining it this was because she was

679
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: starting a company, which obviously wouldn't leave her much time

680
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: for You know that d that's I actually wrote, dad,

681
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: d O j T s d R d J d

682
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: R A p j T S d j T s

683
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: D is out there somewhere Wilting, Wilting or d Well.

684
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: I'm sure he's fine. Yeah, he's probably. I mean, I'm

685
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 1: sure he's a rich kid to fucking Stanford, right, Yeah, you, Yeah,

686
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: he's fine. Facebook. Elizabeth did a summer internship at the

687
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 1: Genome Institute of Singapore, which had later proved to be

688
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 1: her last real dalliance with higher education. Her internship coincided

689
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: with the Stars epidemic, and she was frustrated by the

690
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 1: various inefficiencies and delays caused by testing patients with syringes

691
00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: and nasal swabs. She decided, sased on her one and

692
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: a half years of college, that she could do better

693
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: than these damned infectious disease specialist fighting a massive outbreak

694
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,279
Speaker 1: when you came home from Singapore, she spent five sleepless

695
00:34:08,320 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: days at her computer in Houston. Eventually she came up

696
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: with a patent application for an arm patch that would

697
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 1: diagnose and treat various medical conditions. Armed with this patent,

698
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,479
Speaker 1: she dropped out of school and incorporated a company, Real

699
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 1: Time Cures, which wound up printed on employee paychecks. Is

700
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: real Time Curses due to a funk up? Oops, yeah,

701
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: well it happens to the best of us. Robertson, by

702
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: the way, joined the board and like supported this nineteen

703
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: year old in her dream to drop out of college

704
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,880
Speaker 1: and create a medical device. This like middle aged professor

705
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: understand this culture. I don't know a whole lot about

706
00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: him other than I think he's kind of a piece

707
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: of ship. He comes off that way, and the interviews

708
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: with him, Yeah, come on the show, Robertson talked, Yeah,

709
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: come on the pod, talk me out of that. He

710
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,919
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean yeah, I mean the very

711
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: there's so many like dudes in that in the HBO

712
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 1: documentary who just come off a super defensive and then

713
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 1: I mean the narrative of just like totally one eight

714
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: and b like, yeah, what a fucking dummy crazy, I'm like,

715
00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: you gave her a billion dollars, big coin guy. The

716
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: only people in that documentary who come off well are

717
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: Tyler Schultz and uh and John Kerry Row even yeah,

718
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: even Alex Gidney doesn't come because it's kind of a

719
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: shitty documentary, kind of it's not a great document He

720
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: is using a lot of stock footage. He's using a

721
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: lot of stock footage. I think it's a hit piece

722
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,160
Speaker 1: on Errol Morris personally, Well, wait, what are you talking about?

723
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: The HBO one orb on. Yeah, there was some amorse

724
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: in there, there was well Errol Morris, Yeah, he did

725
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 1: a lot of their ads he endorses. Yeah, I would

726
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 1: love to see an Errol Morris documentary about that experience

727
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: and finding out that he was wrong, because he's a

728
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 1: better filmmakers of that. Shade back on Maddis too, Yeah,

729
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: on fucking Henry Kissinger. How does Henry Kissinger get out

730
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 1: Scott free? I mean, in fairness, like it's the least

731
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: terrible thing Kissinger has been. Like if if if killing

732
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,479
Speaker 1: millions of Cambodians didn't stick to kiss and jaff being

733
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 1: on the far and no sport isn't he's unkillable. He

734
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: really is unkilled And my how is he? I've like

735
00:36:04,920 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: operated under the assumption for a few months at a

736
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: time throughout my adult life, thinking he's dead and then

737
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: remembering he's not, never quite getting very upset about it.

738
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 1: He's one of those people that like there's just a

739
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 1: level of like hate but also like respect of just

740
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: like you've just you've been around for forever, You've been

741
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,359
Speaker 1: bad for song, You've you've been one of the most

742
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 1: influential people in the world for almost a hundred years.

743
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:32,800
Speaker 1: I wonder if he does like that Peter Teel vampire treatment,

744
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: and that's why he's going to live forever. I think

745
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,399
Speaker 1: it's just he UH did some sort of like dark

746
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,319
Speaker 1: magical ritual with all those Cambodians we bombed, and like

747
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 1: their blood extended his life by a couple of decades.

748
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: Him so much. He's a pretty bad person. When I

749
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: have like three straight weeks to read books about Henry Kissinger,

750
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,399
Speaker 1: will do a Henry kissing. Yeah that's a long one. Yeah,

751
00:36:52,440 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: that's that's going to be quite the episode. So the

752
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: funding for Real Time Kiers came from Elizabeth Holmess family

753
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: connections mom and it may not have been rich anymore,

754
00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 1: but they were still, as I said, culturally rich. Elizabeth

755
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,200
Speaker 1: was able to meet with Tim Draper, the father of

756
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: a childhood friend, and convince him to invest one million dollars.

757
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 1: Is that Mr Big Kentie. I don't know. It might

758
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,400
Speaker 1: have been. I think it might have been. Um Draper

759
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: was well known among the kind of rich people who

760
00:37:16,239 --> 00:37:22,760
Speaker 1: invest in unproven tech ventures. Grandfather Draper's grandpa had founded

761
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: the very first Silicon Valley venture capital firm back in

762
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: the fifties. Tim had invested in Hotmail early UH and

763
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Holmes you know, with his name on them, UH

764
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,920
Speaker 1: quickly attracted other investments quote. In a twenty six page

765
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 1: document she used to recruit investors, she described an adhesive

766
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:39,439
Speaker 1: patch that would draw blood painlessly through the skin using

767
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 1: micro needles. The therapy patch, as the document called it,

768
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: would contain a microchip sensing system that would analyze the

769
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,839
Speaker 1: blood and make a process control decision about how much

770
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: of a drug to deliver. Would also communicate its readings

771
00:37:49,160 --> 00:37:52,560
Speaker 1: wirelessly to a patient's doctor. She'd soon changed the company

772
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: name to Thearapos Combination of Therapy and Diagnose. In that

773
00:37:56,360 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: Fortune article, Holmes claimed she'd changed the name because too

774
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: many people reacted cynic to the word cure and made

775
00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: her seem like a snake oil salesman. No, Lizzy, I

776
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,320
Speaker 1: have a question. Sure at this point in the process,

777
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,839
Speaker 1: how involved is Sunny Bowani? Do we know he's not yet?

778
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,439
Speaker 1: He didn't come onto the company officially until I think nine.

779
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,239
Speaker 1: So they so they met when she was young and

780
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: Captain dated Captain Touch. We're not sure. We don't know

781
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 1: exactly when they started dating. They definitely were while he

782
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: was working at Tharanos, but he's not there until two

783
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 1: thousand nine. So she she gets this all off the

784
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,719
Speaker 1: ground before he comes on board. Now, whether or not

785
00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,360
Speaker 1: she's like like her brother did say that they would

786
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 1: call pretty regularly in stuff when she was eighteen nine.

787
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: Sounds like they were in touch, But I don't know.

788
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like it's one of those things. Part

789
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: of why I didn't talk about it more is I

790
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: don't know how influential, Like there's a big debate about

791
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 1: like whether or not because they started dating when she

792
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 1: was so much younger than him, he had a big

793
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: influence on her practices. But it's also like she was

794
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: running this company for like six seven years. She was

795
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: very driven. It doesn't want to say that she was

796
00:38:57,560 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: not capable of doing as clear that she was. It's

797
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,319
Speaker 1: one like it's tough because I don't want, like number one,

798
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: I don't want to like not go after a guy

799
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: who influenced a much younger woman to do bad things.

800
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: But also I don't want to like take away her

801
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: agency and doing shitty things by crediting this. That's like

802
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: one of the complicated things around conversations like this, where

803
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 1: it's like it is weird to me that in all

804
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: the coverage of this story, like Sonny Bowani's role and

805
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,879
Speaker 1: stuff is not more carefully like scrutinized because it's clear

806
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: that you know, she set up the company by herself,

807
00:39:28,800 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: but that age difference when you're that young, it's big. Yeah,

808
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,840
Speaker 1: like that is not a great person on the older

809
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: side of that relationship, and um, you know it's I

810
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: don't know, yeah, I'm I'm of the opinion that like,

811
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,680
Speaker 1: if you're like a mature adult, I don't know. I

812
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: think like, if you're mature adult, you don't eat date teenagers.

813
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: You don't if you're twenty five year older. I don't

814
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: give a ship with the age differences out in the

815
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: world long enough to like know, some fucking ship, But

816
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:57,040
Speaker 1: a fucking nineteen year old date and the thirty seven

817
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: year old that's not cool, man, that's weird. That's weird. Yeah,

818
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: that's weird. Now. Home slowly built her company up over

819
00:40:04,200 --> 00:40:07,400
Speaker 1: the next ten years, gradually refining and revamping her technology.

820
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: From the Fortune article quote, as much as she needed money,

821
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: she turned down many offers, she says, because so many

822
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: investors wanted quick returns. Too often, the question is what's

823
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: your exit strategy, she recounts, before you're really understanding what

824
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: your entry strategy is. What that's like a classic silicon

825
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: Valley thing, state the thing, and then reverse it to

826
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: make it seem like you've said something more profound than

827
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: it actually is, right, and then turn it into an

828
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: Instagram post fun font and post does your blood testing

829
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: equipment work? The question is does current blood testing equipment

830
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: really work? Well, yeah, they told me I had hepatitis

831
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: and she's like, well, she tastes your blood. And now

832
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: the technological fixation of Parinos eventually shifted away from those

833
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 1: medicated patches because what she was trying to do with

834
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,320
Speaker 1: them actually technically sort of violated the laws of physics.

835
00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: Homes moved on from that plan into one that was

836
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: arguably more ambitious than Nanottainer and the Edison blood testing machine.

837
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,359
Speaker 1: While her first innovation had been inspired at least by

838
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 1: real medical ship she really experienced doing actual work in

839
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 1: the field, the Nanottainer and the Edison seemed more inspired

840
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: by Steve Jobs in the Apple Company. Elizabeth Holmes wanted

841
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: to produce a slick, attractive, technological gizmo that could eventually

842
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,480
Speaker 1: wind up in every American home. She had a dizzy

843
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,080
Speaker 1: dream of painple eventually being able to test their own

844
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:26,240
Speaker 1: blood via pinprick and get diagnoses from tiny attractive little boxes,

845
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: like a curing size little thing. I think that was

846
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: the eventual goal. It was never like quite stated, but

847
00:41:31,000 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: if you read between the lines, it's like curing blood

848
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: machine is just going to be inside your house. It's

849
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,160
Speaker 1: like a cool like you can imagine then like a

850
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: sci fi movie where somebody's like, oh no, I got

851
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,160
Speaker 1: exposed to the thing. Let's do Steve, Okay, you're you're

852
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,400
Speaker 1: still safe. You can see Oscar eyes exactly, we can

853
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 1: see Oscar eyes that yeah, in like the in like

854
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,240
Speaker 1: the reboot twenty years from now of the thing exactly,

855
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: that's way less good and doesn't have a drunk Kurt Russell,

856
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 1: which why would you even watch? What's the point. What's

857
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: the point if Kurt Russell is not drinking. Yeah, don't

858
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: reinterpret perfection. Don't reinter perfection. Speaking of perfection, the products

859
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 1: and services that advertise on this show and or program,

860
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 1: tightening my bitcoin tie, tight your bitcoin ties, everybody, and

861
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 1: listen to these ads. We're back. So putting boxes into

862
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 1: houses was the far off goal of Sarapis. Her more

863
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: immediate goals were too utterly disrupt and remake the entire

864
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:28,520
Speaker 1: blood testing industry. Well normal veina puncture required large amounts

865
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:30,680
Speaker 1: of blood to be painfully drawn. The nanottainer would only

866
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 1: need a little bit of blood while still being good

867
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: for hundreds of tests. Two hundred tests is what they

868
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: were hoping to, like, be able to do off like

869
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:38,640
Speaker 1: a tiny little pin prick. I think that that's what

870
00:42:38,680 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: they were saying they could do that. That is what

871
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:45,600
Speaker 1: they were fraudulently claiming they were Ye. Now, the Edison

872
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,840
Speaker 1: machine would not be meant for consumer homes, but she

873
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,280
Speaker 1: figured she could put them in Walgreens and other similar stores,

874
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: and eventually the goal was to get one within every

875
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 1: five miles and then every mile of every single American.

876
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,879
Speaker 1: That was like the goal. Now, that kind of plan

877
00:42:56,960 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 1: was going to require a lot more money than the

878
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,200
Speaker 1: first wave of a VC funding. And in two five,

879
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: when she was twenty one, Elizabeth used her dad's connection

880
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,960
Speaker 1: to set up a meeting with Donald L. Lucas, another

881
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 1: incredibly influential venture capitalist. He agreed to put in more

882
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:13,440
Speaker 1: money and also talked Oracle chairman Larry Ellison into investing. Okay,

883
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: now we've got some of the top tier free. Yeah,

884
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: we'll talk more about that later. Also in two thousan five,

885
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:24,360
Speaker 1: the company made its best talent acquisition. Holmes hired a

886
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,240
Speaker 1: brilliant scientist named Ian Gibbons. Gibbons was a legitimate genius,

887
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: an inventor with countless patents I think over two hundred

888
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 1: to his name, who was drawn to Tharonos by the

889
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: sheer ambition of its mission. He wanted to change the world,

890
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: but it quickly became apparent to him that Tharonosis technology

891
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: just did not work as well as it was supposed to.

892
00:43:41,120 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: The Edison machines couldn't actually perform more than a handful

893
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: of tests, and then of the results were very accurate.

894
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 1: The samples taken by the nanotainers were just too small

895
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:50,879
Speaker 1: for most blood work. Some of this was what you'd

896
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: expect for new technology. The first couple pre market iterations

897
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: of the iPhone were garbage, for example, But Elizabeth Holmes

898
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 1: was hell bent on taking Tharonos technology to market. The

899
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: science would have to come later. In two thousand nine,

900
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,439
Speaker 1: Sonny Balwanni joined Theonis. Sonny was a tech industry guy.

901
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: He made like forty million dollars selling a company prior

902
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:09,720
Speaker 1: to Theonis, and he gave them like a thirteen million

903
00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: dollar loan when he came on board because they were

904
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 1: really hurting for cash. He had no relevant medical or

905
00:44:14,640 --> 00:44:17,839
Speaker 1: engineering experience. Elizabeth Holmes made him. Was he willing to

906
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: yell at people. He was a great yeller, and that

907
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: seems to be most employees at Theroonis will say like

908
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 1: most of his job was yelling at them, although he

909
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: got trained in how to do and operate the blood

910
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,640
Speaker 1: tests and stuff and was doing that as a like

911
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 1: a business Like that's no, don't do that. I mean,

912
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,319
Speaker 1: everything about this business is like I mean, comparing like

913
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: people's health to iPhones is just like well, you know,

914
00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:41,919
Speaker 1: strikes one through three. There's I mean, there's I hate

915
00:44:41,920 --> 00:44:45,120
Speaker 1: to keep bringing it up, but there's stunning like coincidences

916
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:47,280
Speaker 1: between this story and the Lisa Franks story. She also

917
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: like made her husband president to scream at people. Yeah,

918
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:54,000
Speaker 1: there's also something in like the whole don't don't treat

919
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: everything like the tech industry. If your iPhone doesn't work,

920
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: no one dies, No one dies. If your blood testing

921
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: equipment doesn't work, you might not get treated for their cancer. Yeah.

922
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: In two thousand ten, Safeway in Walgrains both inked deals

923
00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,760
Speaker 1: to invest in Tharonos and carry its technology in special

924
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 1: blood clinics inside their brick and mortar locations. Safe Way

925
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,320
Speaker 1: agreed to spend three and fifty million dollars on renovations

926
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:19,840
Speaker 1: to host these labs, and also pumped thirty million investment

927
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: dollars into THEANOS itself. A number of people at Safeway

928
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: were hesitant about the deal due to theonos's infamous secrecy,

929
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 1: no one had actually seen much evidence of their technology,

930
00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 1: but CEO Steve Bird was convinced the company was legit.

931
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: The Birdman, the Birdman, I don't know anything about him,

932
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 1: but his nickname now. According to bad Blood quote, Bird

933
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:40,920
Speaker 1: was over the moon about the partnership. He saw Elizabeth

934
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: as a precocious genius and treated her with rare deference.

935
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:46,920
Speaker 1: Normally loath to leave his offense unless it was absolutely necessary,

936
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: he made an exception for her, regularly driving across the

937
00:45:49,680 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: bay to Palo Alto. On one occasion, he arrived bearing

938
00:45:52,640 --> 00:45:54,840
Speaker 1: a huge white orchid. On another, he brought her a

939
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,320
Speaker 1: model of a private jet. Her next one, he predicted,

940
00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 1: would be real. The Birdman. I'd take a bag. I

941
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: hate the Birdman. We all hate the bird Bag. Tharoness

942
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,359
Speaker 1: worked out a similar deal with Walgreens around the same time. Yeah,

943
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 1: he gives you a giver of vagina flower. Come on, birdman, freak.

944
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,160
Speaker 1: Neither company was wild about sharing. Elizabeth promised Walgreens would

945
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 1: be the exclusive drug store vendor and safe We would

946
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,760
Speaker 1: be the exclusive supermarket location. Both companies would be required

947
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: to spend just absurd amounts of money making their locations

948
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 1: fancy enough to host theirinos. Three fifty million dollars in renovations.

949
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,320
Speaker 1: For Safe Way alone, Thearoness required that the instore clinics

950
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,839
Speaker 1: have luxury carpeting, custom wood cabinets, granite countertops, high end

951
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 1: large screen TVs. They were required by contract to look

952
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: quote better than a SPA. What the I hate Silicon Valley,

953
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,759
Speaker 1: really hate Silicon I wonder if Elizabeth was like, and

954
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: here's what needs to be playing on the TVs, and

955
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,840
Speaker 1: it's like the Twilight. It was like like like vaguely

956
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 1: Eastern music, Like yeah, I'm gonna guess she was the

957
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,239
Speaker 1: one who picked it too, so just like yeah, like

958
00:46:56,600 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: vague appropriation. SPA called she spent four days in a

959
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: pall and based the music on that. Yeah. Now, when

960
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,279
Speaker 1: Thoroness sold itself to Walgreens in Safe Way, they did

961
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: so by claiming that you know, they were legally authorized

962
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: to do blood tests that functioned and stuff that was

963
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 1: not quite the truth, as Bad Blood describes. It had

964
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:17,839
Speaker 1: initially represented that it's blood tests would qualify as WAVED

965
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: under the Clinical Laboratory Improvement Amendments, a nineteen eight law

966
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,960
Speaker 1: that governed laboratories. The c l i A. WAVED tests

967
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: usually involved simple laboratory procedures that the Food and Drug

968
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: Administration had cleared for home use. Now Thoronis was changing

969
00:47:29,719 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: its tune and saying its tests would be offered in

970
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:35,240
Speaker 1: Walgreen stores where laboratory developed tests. It was a big difference.

971
00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 1: Laboratory developed tests lay in a gray zone between the

972
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 1: FDA and another federal health regulator, the Centers for Medicare

973
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 1: and Medicaid Services CMS, as a latter agency was known

974
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 1: exercised oversight of clinical laboratories under c l i A well.

975
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,200
Speaker 1: The FDA regulated the diagnostic equipment that laboratories bought and

976
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: used for their testing, but no one closely regulated tests

977
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,520
Speaker 1: that labs fashioned with their own methods. They found a

978
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: way to not be regulated for a while. They found yeah,

979
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: they found a loophole. Together with never having invented anything

980
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: great loophole. Kevin Hunter, a clinical laboratory specialists working with

981
00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: Walgreens to make sure Aaronosis tech did what they said

982
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,320
Speaker 1: it did, became skeptical about this change. Elizabeth and Sonny

983
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: claimed that all big laboratory companies used lab developed tests,

984
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:19,360
Speaker 1: which was an obvious live to test them, Hunter suggested

985
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 1: doing a fifty patient study comparing Tharonis blood tests to

986
00:48:22,040 --> 00:48:24,520
Speaker 1: once from Stanford Hospital. They should not have been a

987
00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 1: big deal if the technology worked, but Elizabeth's immediate response

988
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 1: was no, I don't think we want to do that.

989
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:32,640
Speaker 1: At this time, Hunter warned his bosses at Walgreens that

990
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,120
Speaker 1: ship looked shady. He pointed out that when Aaronos had

991
00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:37,640
Speaker 1: drawn the blood of Walgreens as president of Pharmacy business,

992
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:40,840
Speaker 1: they'd never actually provided him with his test results. Hunter's

993
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 1: boss said, quote, we can't not pursue this. We can't

994
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 1: risk a scenario where CVS has a deal with them

995
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,200
Speaker 1: in six months and it ends up being real right

996
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: fucking business right there, Jesus Christ. Tharoness was scheduled to

997
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: open Tharoness Wellness Centers and dozens of Arizona Walgreens in

998
00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: two thousand and thirteen. As Elizabeth Holmes struggled to keep

999
00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: anyone at Walgreens from finding out that her ship didn't work.

1000
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: She decided it was a good time to sue Richard Fuse.

1001
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,440
Speaker 1: Now Fuse had basically created a patent out of spite

1002
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 1: that Elizabeth Holmes hadn't consulted him, her own neighbor before

1003
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 1: starting her company. Yeah, he's he's a physician. He's a physician, psychiatrist, inventor.

1004
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:17,959
Speaker 1: I think he called his patent like the Theorpis Killer

1005
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:19,680
Speaker 1: or something. Was like patenting a way to do the

1006
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 1: same thing they were trying to do. Just to be

1007
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:23,840
Speaker 1: a dick. He seems like a dick. Yeah. Uh, the

1008
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: details of the case aren't super interesting, but what's important

1009
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: is that Fuses lawyers subpoena Theoronis executives involved in proprietary

1010
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 1: aspects of the company's technology. This included Ian Gibbons, by

1011
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: this point had been sidelined into an ancillary role within

1012
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: the company by Elizabeth due to his nasty habit of

1013
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 1: telling her that nothing worked and they really should not

1014
00:49:39,840 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 1: be using the stuff on human beings. I'm going to

1015
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,239
Speaker 1: quote from a great Vanity Fair article on the fall

1016
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:48,120
Speaker 1: of Theoronis by Nick Bilton quote. Gibbons didn't want to testify.

1017
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:50,439
Speaker 1: If he told the court that the technology did not work,

1018
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: he would harm the people he worked with. That he

1019
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:55,480
Speaker 1: wasn't honest about the technologies problems. However, consumers could potentially

1020
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:58,719
Speaker 1: harm their health, maybe even fatally. Holmes, meanwhile, did not

1021
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 1: seem willing to tolerate his resistance. According to his wife,

1022
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: Ruschelle Gibbons, even though Gibbons had warned that the technology

1023
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:06,719
Speaker 1: wasn't ready for the public, Holmes was preparing to open

1024
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: Parinos wellness centers and dozens of Walgreens across Arizona. Ian

1025
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:11,879
Speaker 1: felt like he would lose his job if he told

1026
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: the truth, Ruschelle told me as she wept one summer

1027
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: morning in Palo Alto. Ian was a real obstacle for Elizabeth.

1028
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: He started to be very vocal. They kept him around

1029
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: to keep him quiet. On May sixteenth, thirteen, Ian Gibbons

1030
00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,319
Speaker 1: received a phone call from Elizabeth Holmes. She told him

1031
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 1: that she wanted to meet with him the next day

1032
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:28,959
Speaker 1: in her office. He asked his wife if she thought

1033
00:50:28,960 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: Holmes was going to fire him. Rochelle said yes. That night,

1034
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 1: Ian Gibbons attempted suicide by taking an overdose of pills.

1035
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,440
Speaker 1: He survived, but the pills did tremendous damage to his

1036
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: sixty nine year old body. One week later, he died

1037
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:43,279
Speaker 1: in the hospital. That is like the the one of

1038
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: the most devastating elements of this entire story, because it

1039
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,480
Speaker 1: was clearly just like a really brilliant guy who like

1040
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: couldn't take emotionally like failing at something like this and

1041
00:50:53,640 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: being like and it seems like she was really abusive

1042
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: to him, and like Sonny was too. In the absolutely

1043
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:02,800
Speaker 1: sounds like like Elizabeth was like the the like gas lighter,

1044
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 1: and then Sonny was the enforcer. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, yeah,

1045
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 1: it's fun. It's incredibly sad. Yeah. In two thousand fourteen,

1046
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:12,479
Speaker 1: that praiseful Fortune article dropped. On the surface, things looked

1047
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 1: great for Paris. On February four, two fourteen, the Partner

1048
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: Fund bought more than five point six million shares of

1049
00:51:17,640 --> 00:51:20,120
Speaker 1: Paronos at a price of seventeen dollars a share, bringing

1050
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: in ninety six million and raising Faronises overall value to

1051
00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 1: nine billion. Overnight, Elizabeth, owner of more than half the company,

1052
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 1: became a multibillionaire. Fortune made a huge deal about homes

1053
00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 1: being the youngest female self made billionaire in history, which

1054
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:34,879
Speaker 1: would have been a hilariously inaccurate term for her even

1055
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:38,120
Speaker 1: if her technology worked. That's really one of some of

1056
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: my favorite apologies surrounding the story are the guy is

1057
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 1: the guy who wrote the Fortune article, who's like almost crying.

1058
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 1: He's like, I did it check anything. It's like, well,

1059
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:50,759
Speaker 1: he didn't check things, but he checked things with the

1060
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: people Paronos put forward for him to check, and like

1061
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: you see with John careyrew what a good journalist does

1062
00:51:58,160 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: when people said stuff like that, you know, and be

1063
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 1: like ask my mom, Like no, Yeah. That was a

1064
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 1: funny apology that the article that Fortune guy wrote really

1065
00:52:08,520 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 1: hammered in the idea that Elizabeth was a brilliant inventor. Today,

1066
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,960
Speaker 1: Holmes is a co inventor on eighty two US and

1067
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 1: a hundred and eighty nine foreign patent applications, of which

1068
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 1: eighteen in the US and sixty six A brought up

1069
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:18,800
Speaker 1: and granted. Those are an addition to a hundred and

1070
00:52:18,880 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: eighty six applications THEANOIS has filed worldwide that don't list

1071
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,080
Speaker 1: Holmes is an inventor, of which eighteen have already been granted. Now,

1072
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:27,239
Speaker 1: dr fuse alleges that this was bullshit, and this is

1073
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: one of the things I really do believe him on.

1074
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:31,319
Speaker 1: He says that Holmes basically used legal trickery to take

1075
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: partial credit for the work of Dr Ian Gibbons. A

1076
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: dead man. Sounds correct, even though it was funded or

1077
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:38,920
Speaker 1: Leon Thranis used a patent writer rather than a law

1078
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:40,840
Speaker 1: firm to draft its patents. The patent writers not have

1079
00:52:40,880 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 1: a fiduciary duty to study prior art, so they just

1080
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: put her name on the patents, including ones that over

1081
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 1: lapped with what Gibbons had invented at a prior company.

1082
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:51,480
Speaker 1: So that's fucking despicable. Stealing the work of a dead man.

1083
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 1: Pretty messed up. The only dead man who could have

1084
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: like made your stuff work. Yeah, pretty gross. I like

1085
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:00,759
Speaker 1: to end by talking about Elizabeth Homes his reaction to

1086
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 1: the death of Ian Gibbons. When his widow called Homes

1087
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,520
Speaker 1: his office to tell her what had happened, Elizabeth's secretary,

1088
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,840
Speaker 1: being a human person, was horrified and offered her seemingly

1089
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: legitimate condolences. She promised to notify Homes at once. Elizabeth

1090
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 1: never reached out to Russelle. Instead, she had someone else

1091
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: called a new widow and the man she returned anytharanous

1092
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: property Givens had kept at his home. She also threatened

1093
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 1: to sue her if she talked to anyone she is.

1094
00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's interesting hearing how many things about

1095
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 1: her do line up with her clearly modeling herself after

1096
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs and just being a relentless asshole. Um, because

1097
00:53:35,320 --> 00:53:37,279
Speaker 1: Steve Jobs would never have reached out to a dead

1098
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: coworkers family like he was a tremendous asshole, was a huge.

1099
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 1: He didn't shower for weeks at a time and just

1100
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: made everyone deal with it openly hostile to everyone around him.

1101
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:52,279
Speaker 1: And it's and and you know his products, you know

1102
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:58,840
Speaker 1: it was dollars from the wa was her the watch

1103
00:53:59,160 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: when she killed him. Waz dated Kathy Griffin for a second,

1104
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,840
Speaker 1: some great picks of them. I'm very PROA was getting

1105
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,360
Speaker 1: it in. I'm sure he's horrible too, but he knows

1106
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: he made like three million dollars and then he instantly

1107
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,680
Speaker 1: blew it all hosting a series of giant concerts. I

1108
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: didn't know that just and then now he just was

1109
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 1: just a guy. Everyone should look up the Steve Wozniya,

1110
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 1: Kathy Griffin picks from when they were a couple. They

1111
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 1: seem so happy. Yeah, but but it's like it's crazy that, like,

1112
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:34,439
Speaker 1: you know, she so clearly modeled herself after they're cute.

1113
00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:36,839
Speaker 1: I bet he's really nice. I've never heard a bad

1114
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,480
Speaker 1: thing about the laws. I I hope, I hope he's

1115
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: a good I mean, if there's one good person, a miracle. Yeah,

1116
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: but I don't know. It's it's weird the way that

1117
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:50,040
Speaker 1: she you know, you can't funk with people's health. Number one,

1118
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: I'm glad no one died because of Sarah Knows. I

1119
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:57,879
Speaker 1: do think that the way that like girl bosses versus

1120
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:00,919
Speaker 1: boy bosses are treated when they are like people really

1121
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:06,160
Speaker 1: relish and and the takedown of woman in business because

1122
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:10,360
Speaker 1: even and she deserves it, but it serves like people

1123
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:12,799
Speaker 1: relish it in a way that makes me uncomfortable. One

1124
00:55:12,840 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: of the most heartbreaking things I've ever read, because I

1125
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,239
Speaker 1: covered Steve Joe when the first journalism job I had

1126
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 1: was in tech journalism. It was while Jobs was still

1127
00:55:19,239 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: alive and still running Apple, and so like, you know,

1128
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: you would have to write something about him and his

1129
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 1: company every like week or two because it was fucking Apple.

1130
00:55:25,080 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 1: And this is like when Apple was, you know, everything

1131
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,480
Speaker 1: was blowing up there. UM. And I read a book

1132
00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 1: about the founding of the company Um, and one of

1133
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 1: the stories in it is that when he and was

1134
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: before they founded Apple, like they got contracted with a

1135
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,439
Speaker 1: tari uh to like make a product, and of course

1136
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:45,160
Speaker 1: Jobs got them the contract and Wasn'ia did all the

1137
00:55:45,160 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: actual work and then Jobs they're supposed to split it

1138
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,880
Speaker 1: fifty fifty, but Jobs stole five thousand dollars from from

1139
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:55,200
Speaker 1: Wosnia acts and comback and Wasnia found out about it

1140
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 1: years later. It was because like an interviewer asked him

1141
00:55:57,120 --> 00:55:58,880
Speaker 1: about it, and he was like in tears about it

1142
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: because he had known it and he just like thought

1143
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:02,560
Speaker 1: this guy was his friend, and he's like he never

1144
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,080
Speaker 1: gave a shit about you. He just knew you were

1145
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: a genius? Was that you naive? Little sweetie pie? Know?

1146
00:56:09,160 --> 00:56:11,279
Speaker 1: I know it's a heartbreaker. May there never be a

1147
00:56:11,360 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: behind the bastards about was? I don't know that I

1148
00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 1: can emotionally take writing that if there is anything terrible

1149
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:20,600
Speaker 1: about it. I can never in good conscience trust a

1150
00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:23,560
Speaker 1: man and to be good, but I hope that he

1151
00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 1: ends up being good. I can occasionally trust like an

1152
00:56:27,080 --> 00:56:29,959
Speaker 1: engineer and a scientist, although they also make our terrors,

1153
00:56:30,000 --> 00:56:32,279
Speaker 1: but it could you could occasionally like those guys, like

1154
00:56:32,400 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: the guy like it's the it's the fucking it's the

1155
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,880
Speaker 1: people who are running the companies, like there's some decent

1156
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: couple one or two. Shirley, what do you what do

1157
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,960
Speaker 1: you think about the Elizabeth Holmes movie being made? I

1158
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:48,480
Speaker 1: think it's probably gonna be gross, right, Yeah, it's probably

1159
00:56:48,520 --> 00:56:50,759
Speaker 1: gonna be really gross. I think I think miss me

1160
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,000
Speaker 1: with it. I don't. I don't want it. Yeah, I

1161
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: don't want it. I can't imagine it being tasteful. Um,

1162
00:56:56,080 --> 00:56:58,279
Speaker 1: I don't need Jennifer Lawrence to play Elizabeth Holmes. I

1163
00:56:58,400 --> 00:57:00,360
Speaker 1: don't need that. What I do what I need that.

1164
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: I would like an honest movie about Steve Jobs where

1165
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:06,080
Speaker 1: it because he's he was a grifter. He want another

1166
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: movie about I want an actual movie about what he

1167
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,560
Speaker 1: We got the that's the Ashton Cutcher one, Robert. I

1168
00:57:12,680 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: love the Ashton Kutcher one. I got blackout drunk on

1169
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 1: my twenty first birthday and Son theaters. That sounds awful. Actually.

1170
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: I love the part where he walked through the fields

1171
00:57:21,120 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: and he's like, I have an idea for computers. I

1172
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: love it, you play it's he's he's a He's a grifter.

1173
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: He's a horrible he was always a grifter. He was

1174
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: a grifter who did the same thing Elizabeth did. Is

1175
00:57:34,600 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: he like had these demands for a product that nobody

1176
00:57:36,640 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: could build, and he just stuck to his demands for

1177
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 1: the product until they could. And he got lucky that

1178
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: they got it right. And it was lucky that it

1179
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: was a good idea, because if it wasn't a good idea,

1180
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:47,800
Speaker 1: he still would have stuck to it. With Holmes had

1181
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 1: a good idea too. They both like, you can't be

1182
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: a good grifter unless you understand what people want. And

1183
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:54,480
Speaker 1: that's why he jobs was a great person to make

1184
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: certain decisions about like what do we want a smart phone?

1185
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,840
Speaker 1: Because people have tried smartphones. He was the first part

1186
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 1: he was this like his one legitimate, brilliant thing was

1187
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: understanding what people wanted a device they were always going

1188
00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 1: to have on them, right, Like that was his one

1189
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,240
Speaker 1: real innovation because like sucking everything at the first apple

1190
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: was was wasniak that was any good? Right? Well, it

1191
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:14,920
Speaker 1: sounds like the I mean, the mistake is truly just

1192
00:58:14,960 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: like putting people's lives at risk. Yeah, because you could

1193
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,320
Speaker 1: funk up the iPhone a million times and no one

1194
00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:22,560
Speaker 1: would die exactly. And we all want what Elizabeth Holmes

1195
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: was selling. We all want like the thing that just

1196
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: takes a tiny drop of blood and they can do

1197
00:58:25,920 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: all these tests. Sounds great, it sounds great, but it

1198
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: just isn't possible. You know how to do it yet

1199
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:34,560
Speaker 1: you know eventually they'll probably figure it out. Well, that's

1200
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 1: the episode. We've got a part two coming up on

1201
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:39,600
Speaker 1: Thursday where we'll get to the rest of this sad story.

1202
00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,720
Speaker 1: But Loftissue want to plug some plugables up in the

1203
00:58:43,200 --> 00:58:47,120
Speaker 1: p zone as we call it here, the zone zone

1204
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 1: and the zone. I kind of hate it, but I

1205
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,760
Speaker 1: like it. Okay, pop an air horn in there and okay. Uh.

1206
00:58:54,480 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 1: You can listen to the Bechdel Cast every week on Thursdays,

1207
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 1: and that's the podcast host with Caitlin Torante where we

1208
00:59:01,720 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: talk about women in movies. I'm doing a show called

1209
00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:10,480
Speaker 1: Boss Home is Girl m touring across the country later

1210
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:14,680
Speaker 1: in the summer. You can go on my website or

1211
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 1: my Twitter at Jamie Lofta's help to find out more

1212
00:59:19,440 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 1: about that. Now, now that everyone knows who Elizabeth Holmes is.

1213
00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: You know, you listen to make some tweaks. You could

1214
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 1: hear Jamie Loftus be Elizabeth Holmes in Cleveland. They're not

1215
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 1: in Cleveland. Not well that you can't. If you're in Cleveland,

1216
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,919
Speaker 1: will have to funk off. No, And I'm not playing.

1217
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 1: I'm playing like a fictionalized character. There's a lot pulled

1218
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: from her. But if you live in New York, Philadelphia, Boston,

1219
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: l A, or Chicago, you'll see it. Well, for some reason,

1220
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 1: you live in one of those non Cleveland studies. Check

1221
00:59:50,040 --> 00:59:52,680
Speaker 1: out Jamie Loftus is Boston Home was Girl. You can

1222
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: find me on Twitter at I right, Okay. You can

1223
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: buy T shirts at public dot com Behind the Bastards

1224
00:59:57,360 --> 00:59:59,919
Speaker 1: we have shirts. You can put them on your body,

1225
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: hide your nakedness, cover up your bits. All of those

1226
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: things are options with T Public. Your bits will be

1227
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 1: package uh. Sex positive or sex negative both. Yeah, we're

1228
01:00:13,280 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: positive of the concept of sex. Negative about people having yeah,

1229
01:00:17,320 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 1: just negative about joy if it's like joyless sex. I

1230
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: have another podcast called it Could Happen Here. It's horribifying

1231
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:31,400
Speaker 1: and sad. Listen to it. Ye hard sell every Wednesday

1232
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: Sophie's saying every Wednesday, I love about you.