WEBVTT - Is birth order important? 0:00:01.120 --> 0:00:03.400 Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of My 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:12.719 Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:15.680 I'm Josh Clark. There's Charles Duby, Choke Bryant, there's Jerry 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:21.320 over there, and this is Stuff You Should Know jerodcast. Jerry. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:27.520 Were you a what was your birth order? Oh, Jerry's 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.720 a middle child, two of two or two of more. 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:36.440 So you're the baby. You don't know this, did you? Sure? No? 0:00:36.800 --> 0:00:39.800 I know Jerry for like thirteen years, so have I? Well, 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.360 not that long twelve years, So have I no comment? 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:49.519 What am I? I don't know? That's right, I know what. 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:52.080 I'm the baby? You know that. Yeah, I didn't ask 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:53.720 what you were. I know you know what you are? 0:00:53.880 --> 0:00:55.960 What am I? This isn't quits not You're not gonna 0:00:56.040 --> 0:01:00.960 just yea. Yeah, I wasn't calling you out. I was 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:03.400 calling you out in a humorous way. And I called 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.520 you out. Um. It's hard not to look at this 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:09.000 stuff through your own lens though, of your own family. 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.160 You know, are you changing the subject? I don't know. 0:01:12.240 --> 0:01:15.640 I'm getting on with it because as the youngest of three, 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.240 and all of us have three distinct personalities, it's hard 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:22.000 not to kind of like think about birth order and 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:24.399 if that's a thing, and it may be and it 0:01:24.440 --> 0:01:29.319 may not be. Yeah, depends on which scientists you're asking. 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.760 I tend to think like, there's just no way it 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:36.680 doesn't have any effect. Now there, I think it definitely 0:01:36.720 --> 0:01:39.920 has an effect. But as we will see, it is 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:46.360 one part of a huge pie that uh that indicates 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.000 what kind of person and personality you might have. Well. 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:54.200 Plus also it's devilishly tricky to to analyze, to study 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:57.120 because of how big that pie is. Yeah, there's so 0:01:57.200 --> 0:02:01.160 much going on with your personality that to just pinpoint 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.080 one thing, even a big thing like that where you're 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.480 born in a family, um, it's just tough to pin down. 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:13.079 So you're the youngest, right, good yess? Yes I am. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:16.360 I knew you were the youngest. I'm like, I wear 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.320 that on my sleeve. I feel like I kind of 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:23.280 do too a lot, I guess in some ways. But 0:02:23.320 --> 0:02:26.360 like I was reading this checklist for the youngest, Yeah, 0:02:26.480 --> 0:02:29.160 I'm like, yeah, I guess. So let's let's let's do 0:02:29.240 --> 0:02:32.080 should we go over that that stuff first? Yeah? Totally 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.480 all right. So this is like the sort of macro 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.440 view of how a lot of people think of birth 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:45.080 order pop psychology. Yeah, so if you were born into 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.520 a family, there's basically four ways that you can be 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:51.320 born in some sort of order. You can be the firstborn, 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.560 you can be a middle child, or you can be 0:02:56.720 --> 0:03:01.040 the last born. And then if you're real out fire. Okay, 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.880 you're right, So there's five oh god, don't even get 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:10.080 me started. Um, okay, a multi um or you can 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:12.920 be an only child too, and all of them have 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:17.320 distinct personalities. Again according to pop psychology, but also according 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.440 to every person who's ever been born into a family, 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.360 especially and so with the first born um, the whole 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.799 the whole theory of basically birth order, where where you're 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:30.720 born into the family unit that you're born into, and 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:33.919 what effect that has on your personality and how it develops. 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.520 It all seems to come down to this idea that 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.120 you are born into a family where there is a 0:03:41.160 --> 0:03:45.400 finite resource called parental attention, and then that is a 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:49.280 pie that gets increasingly divided up into smaller and smaller 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:52.400 pieces the more and more children that are born, because 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:56.480 your parents can't possibly give five kids the same amount 0:03:56.480 --> 0:03:59.360 of attention that they could give an only child. It's 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.880 just not possible. And so what dynamics are created in 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:06.080 the personality of the kids born into that family depending 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:08.880 on how many others are born and depending on where 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:11.960 they fall in that birth order. That's kind of the 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:14.640 premise of the whole thing. And over time people have said, well, 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.159 this is what the first point is like, this is 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:18.800 what the middle is like, this is what the baby's like. Yeah, 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:20.600 and there were I mean a lot of this are 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.960 these are generalizations, but they are generalizations. Like you said 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.000 that kind of everyone who's ever been in a family 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.960 can kind of say, yeah, that's kind of true. Um, 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:33.200 you know when you have an only or your first kid, 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.440 they this article references as that first sort of experiment. 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.159 You don't know what you're doing yet. Um, you're probably 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:43.760 going all in, depending on how lazy you are, how 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:46.320 motivated you are as a parent with this, you know, 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:51.400 being a super parent. And then if supposedly as you 0:04:51.440 --> 0:04:54.480 have more children you get it's not only is your 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:57.040 is your attention divided? I think, but there's the notion 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.320 that you also are like, you know what, a probably 0:05:00.320 --> 0:05:03.040 don't need to be as crazy with number two and 0:05:03.160 --> 0:05:07.279 number three, Um, leave them to their own devices. As 0:05:07.279 --> 0:05:09.760 a third kid, I'm not going to get into too 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:14.039 many depressing details of my family growing up, but like 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:18.560 by the time I was ten and eleven and my 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:23.280 parents had other things going on, and I wasn't fair 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:28.640 old kids on the side. Not exactly, Um, I wasn't 0:05:28.680 --> 0:05:31.680 fair old by any means, but I was. I did 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:33.719 not have rules imposed on me like my brother and 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.440 sister did. I did not have I was allowed to 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:38.960 go to Panama City for spring break and they weren't. 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.680 I was allowed to kind of do my own thing, 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.480 and I was trustworthy, So that probably had a lot 0:05:44.520 --> 0:05:45.960 to do with it. If I would have been a 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:47.880 real problem, they might have clamped down a little more, 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:51.040 or maybe not. And they probably wouldn't have necessarily clamped down, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:53.240 like we need to give Chuck Way more attention and 0:05:53.279 --> 0:05:56.279 guidance than we have been. They would have probably been 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.720 like crime and punishment. They would have been, like we're saying, 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:00.400 in Chuck the rehab or whatever her you know what 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.679 I mean, Let rehab take care of our reform school 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:05.720 or something like that, because once you get X number 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:09.680 of kids in, you're just so tired, so tired, and 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.760 you're older too, Like when you're chasing a little kid 0:06:13.760 --> 0:06:17.120 around and like your forties or fifties. That's different than 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.440 when you're chasing a little kid around in your mid twenties. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:23.440 I can't imagine a world of difference, you know. Um, 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.360 So there's there's there. There's a lot of resources, not 0:06:26.440 --> 0:06:30.800 just you know, parents attention, but also their time, intellectual 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:33.400 attention that they'll give a kid like and say, um, 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.320 like hanging out, teaching the kid to read that kind 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:39.640 of stuff. Um, and just attention in general, and also 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:44.679 financial resources the families. Resources in general are a pie 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:47.800 that must be divided among all financial, emotional, all that 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:53.280 stuff instructive. Uh. So, generally speaking, firstborn's, people say, tend 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:58.400 to be very conscientious and structured and reliable. Uh and 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:04.279 high achieve high achiever. Yeah, because their parents are focusing 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.799 like a laser on them. They know everything that kids 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:11.240 got going on, maybe a little too much. Um. And 0:07:11.280 --> 0:07:13.960 the kid is responding to this by basically becoming a 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:19.080 perfectionist and really wanting to be around their parents. Um 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:23.400 and and um. Their parents friends sure very much mature 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.640 because they're all of the people are most of the 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.720 people are hanging out with our adults. Okay, so that's 0:07:29.720 --> 0:07:33.720 the firstborn typically, right, everybody knows it. Don't try to 0:07:33.760 --> 0:07:39.400 deny middles in general are people pleasing? Which is so 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:42.560 my brother. Um, that's weird to me because when I 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.800 think of middle children, I think of jam Brady, and 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.560 jam Brady was not a people pleaser. She was just 0:07:47.680 --> 0:07:51.280 you know, a lump, like a lump with a cloud overhead, 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:54.960 poor Jan. But that's true, Like I would not characterize 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:58.600 Jan Brady as a people pleaser, would you know? Like 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.120 she was gonna burn some thing down and eventually if 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:03.360 the Brady bunchet stayed on the air long enough. Was 0:08:03.400 --> 0:08:06.560 also a blended family. So what was who was the 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:10.680 It was Bobby and then Peter later, I guess you'd 0:08:10.720 --> 0:08:14.520 call it was he was he a people pleaser or 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:19.960 just a Peter Jan more than Jan. But blended families 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.800 do confound things. We'll get into that for sure. Um. 0:08:22.840 --> 0:08:26.400 But people pleasing, Uh, somewhat rebellious, which is not my 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.800 brother at all. Um, large social circle, not really my 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.360 brother and a peacemaker, totally my brother. He's the best, 0:08:33.480 --> 0:08:37.560 He's the best. Uh. And then the young things, younges, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:45.600 young uns like us, Um, most free spirited, fun loving, uncomplicated, manipulative. 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:50.640 I've I've been called some of these things varying degrees, 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:56.679 self centered, attention seeking and outgoing check and check. But 0:08:56.920 --> 0:08:58.720 on combined you and I and we're sort of like 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.240 the proto youngest complicated. Though I'm like, I don't get that. 0:09:02.360 --> 0:09:06.760 I'm I'm I'm exquisitely complicated on the surface. You wouldn't 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:09.560 think it, but I'm pretty complicated as we all know 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:11.520 in this room. But that's the only one that I'm 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:15.719 like that I question. Yeah. All the rest of them 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:18.280 are like, yeah, that makes sense. Looks like the Chinese zodiac. 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:20.640 You look at that menu and you're like, um, total 0:09:20.679 --> 0:09:24.480 dog yes, and movie guy pants sounds great right now. 0:09:25.000 --> 0:09:29.960 Only these no siblings. You are what they call almost 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:34.360 like a super firstborn. All of the traits of the 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:40.080 firstborn on steroids, very much perfectionists, very much more mature 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:45.040 for your age, conscientious, diligent, prone to be leader, can 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:49.679 leap over tall buildings. Uh. And then this is where 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:52.840 it gets interesting, and this sort of starts to finally, everybody, 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:54.800 this is where it starts to get interested. Well, this 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:56.920 is where it gets in a little bit like how 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.880 complicated it can get because there's so many factors that 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:04.720 play like Um, what if you're in a blended family, 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.000 because that kind of throws it all out of whack. Yeah, 0:10:08.280 --> 0:10:13.120 if you're born a firstborn and you your parents your 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:15.120 your parents get divorce and your you go with your 0:10:15.160 --> 0:10:19.000 mom who gets remarried to a dude who has yes 0:10:19.120 --> 0:10:23.120 to a smashing cool architect for sure. Um, and he 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:27.720 has a kid that's a little older than you. Greg's 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:31.000 the firstborn. You're not the firstborn anymore. The best you 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:33.439 can hope for is to form some sort of confederacy 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:36.199 or alliance with Greg to rule the rest of the siblings. 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:38.760 But you're not the head Hans show anymore. You're not 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:42.120 in charge. That's a big deal. I can't imagine many 0:10:42.160 --> 0:10:45.720 more traumatic experiences, especially when that follows closely on the 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:48.000 heels of your parents divorced or the death of like 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.199 your other parents. Um, that's got to be one of 0:10:51.240 --> 0:10:53.560 the most traumatic things that kid can go through is 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:59.120 to lose the they're identified perch in the family order. Yeah, 0:10:59.160 --> 0:11:01.720 and that's you were we were talking about, like the firstborn, 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:03.800 like the baby of the family. If all of a 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:07.760 sudden there's a younger, no good like I remember my 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:12.200 parents for some reason talking about adopting a kid. I 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:14.080 can't remember how old I was. I must have been 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:18.840 about seven, and I remember breaking down and crying and 0:11:18.920 --> 0:11:22.200 just being like, you can't do this. You cannot bring 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:26.760 in someone younger and cuter than me, And that happens. 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:30.360 I'm seven, blended family, all of a sudden, you'd be 0:11:30.360 --> 0:11:34.600 a younger or God forbid of baby. Just forget about it. 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:39.439 Can't compete with that. You gotta kill that baby. Well, 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.240 that's what happened to when Brady Bunch started to lose ratings. 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:46.400 Apparently your family was losing ratings. They brought in cousin Oliver, 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:48.800 a new baby, and I don't think Bobby was very 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.600 happy about that either. No, but just think about Janet 0:11:51.679 --> 0:11:53.880 all makes a little bit more sense. Like she was like, 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.000 I'm the middle child, and then they brought in three 0:11:56.040 --> 0:11:58.040 more and she was like, I'm even more middle Yeah, 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.280 you're deluded. The middle child is deluded. And if you 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:05.000 have multiple middle children, forget about it. That's right. However, 0:12:05.160 --> 0:12:07.559 here's the thing with blended families. They say by about 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:10.320 the age of five that a lot of your personality 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.400 is set. So if you're older than five and all 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:16.320 of a sudden, your family is blended. They say, it 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.440 may not make that much of a difference. No, No No, 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:22.800 that's where it's trouble. If you're younger than five and 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:25.520 your your personality a little more plastic. If you were 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:29.560 born a baby of the family and suddenly you're a firstborn, 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.960 or you're not the or you're a middle kid, you'll 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.000 adapt to that a lot better than you would if 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:36.839 you're like older and you're you're more solid in your 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:40.040 birth order. Yeah, I didn't mean not trouble. What I 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:44.560 meant was like, if you're uh like twelve years old 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:48.520 and the family blending happens, it's trouble, But it's it's 0:12:48.559 --> 0:12:51.760 not like your personality is like, all of a sudden, 0:12:51.880 --> 0:12:55.600 I'm the the youngest or you know what I mean. Like, 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.040 you don't all of a sudden swap to a different 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:00.880 birth order personality, I don't think, right. But if you're 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.000 younger and it happens, you do right under the age 0:13:04.000 --> 0:13:06.320 of five, which goes to show that if this is 0:13:06.360 --> 0:13:08.240 the thing, and we'll talk about whether it is or 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.599 not soon. Um, it has nothing to do with biology, 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:16.120 has everything to do with with nurture, not nature, because 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.400 a kid can adapt depending on When this happens, they 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.120 can adapt to a change in birth order if they're 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:25.359 young enough. That means it has nothing to do with biology. 0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:29.160 It's all the environment you're raised in, which is the 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:33.120 most bone headedly obvious thing on the planet. And then 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.760 before we take a break, they are also gap children. 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.840 Um supposedly, if there's at least a five year gap 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.560 between births, then it just sort of resets. That was 0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:43.920 like me and my oldest sister. She was thirteen years 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:48.560 older than me. She was just like this older, cool person, 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:51.319 but not like an old older sister, not at all 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:55.880 overbearing for me. I guess a little bit or like 0:13:55.920 --> 0:13:59.280 a second mom kind of to an extent, because that 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:01.800 does happen to if there's a big gap or a 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:04.680 big family. Like I dated a girl in New Jersey 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:06.920 that had there was like six or seven of them, 0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.160 and the by the time she came around, she was 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:14.280 kind of fully being raised by her siblings, right, So, 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.520 so what happens when there's enough of a gap a 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:19.720 new family birth order forms. So like if you have 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:23.760 an oldest and then there's multiple years, like say ten 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.800 years between your oldest and your middle and then two 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:29.760 years between your middle and your baby. The middle and 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.160 the baby are going to form a firstborn and a 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:36.080 last born type relationship. Yeah, the last born is always 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.560 going to be the last born, yes, regardless of gap. 0:14:39.880 --> 0:14:42.680 But then twins, like you were saying, is one last 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:49.160 confounding thing. The twins or triplets multiples as you call them. Um, yeah, 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.640 I think so. Uh. They form their own family unit 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:56.400 within the family too, with each other. And apparently no 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:00.000 matter where they're born, twins never act like middle kids. 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:02.560 They always act like the firstborn or the baby, but 0:15:02.720 --> 0:15:06.160 to one another. Right, and I think they generally come 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:09.520 together to kill the parents basically, right, they hold hands, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:12.680 it's like an elevator of blood washes around them. Uh. 0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:17.400 And then finally with adoption, Um, they say that depending 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:19.880 on when your child is adopted, the same kind of 0:15:20.080 --> 0:15:25.760 scenario scenario happens as in like with gapped and blended families. Whereas, 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:28.600 if the kids young enough here so you will tailor 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.640 there um, their their birth order to the family that 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.120 they're adopted into. But if they're older, they'll be trouble. 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:38.800 All right, that's a good overview. I think I think 0:15:38.840 --> 0:15:41.920 it was a great overview, Chuck, we're in front of it. 0:15:42.240 --> 0:15:47.400 We're gonna you do have that overview glow. We're gonna 0:15:47.440 --> 0:15:51.000 take a break and we're gonna talk about science right 0:15:51.000 --> 0:16:14.400 after this. Alright, Chuck, as promised, we're gonna talk about 0:16:14.480 --> 0:16:18.240 science because, like I said, this is so boneheaded and 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.520 obvious that every single person who's ever been born into 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:25.160 a family, everybody knows this stuff. But as far as 0:16:25.200 --> 0:16:29.400 science is concerned, this is not proven that birth order 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.440 effects as they're called, actually exist. That science is saying, 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:38.280 hold your cell, your role, everybody. We can't actually prove 0:16:38.360 --> 0:16:42.800 that what everybody knows is actually true. Um. Some some 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:45.200 studies show that, yes, there is such thing as birth 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.480 order effects. Other studies show that there is no birth 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:53.000 order effect whatsoever. And then some studies suggest that if 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.480 there are birth order effects, they're so small that they 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:58.920 are basically a blip on your personality. That all the 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:03.400 other factors that form your personality, things like the socioeconomic 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.920 status of the family you're born into, your racial background, 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:11.919 your um gender, all the other stuff. Um, that is 0:17:11.960 --> 0:17:15.720 what really forms your personality, not the order you're born 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.800 into your family. That's kind of sciences position right now. Yeah, 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.560 But what they all agree on is that it is 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:27.040 therapy cash cow right that that that yes, it's a 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:30.560 it's a good it's a useful framework to approach psychotherapy 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.600 from it. That's where I want to talk about it. 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.640 At the high hourly rates. See to me, I'm like, 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:38.840 this is sure, this is exactly what forms your personality. 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.679 But I get sciences position. I respect it. So if 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:44.320 we go back in time to the early nineteen hundreds, 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.520 there was a man named Alfred Adler. He was a 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:50.480 part of He was a contemporary of Freud, and this 0:17:50.520 --> 0:17:53.200 is when all these dudes were getting together, uh to 0:17:53.240 --> 0:17:55.800 talk about all this stuff in this burgeoning science, and 0:17:56.160 --> 0:17:58.760 they all thought they were so cool and important and 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:04.919 um he was one of the only ones among his 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.960 peers though at the time, that was talking about birth 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:11.480 order that early. And he went on to form what 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:17.159 we know is uh Adlerian psychology or individual psychology, and 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:21.439 it's basically a therapy based on um, how you perceive 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:26.000 your own level of power in your family, at your workplace, 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:29.919 in the world at large in general, like your perceived power, 0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:33.160 place of position or status. Right, yeah, And if he 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:38.040 believed in birth order having a significant influence on your personality, 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.879 then that in turn would influence how powerful you may 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.240 or may not feel. Yeah, because the addler if if 0:18:43.680 --> 0:18:46.520 how you perceived your own power, not necessarily how powerful 0:18:46.560 --> 0:18:49.600 you were, but your own perception of power was the 0:18:49.760 --> 0:18:52.800 driving force of like what how you interact with the 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:56.840 world your personality. Um birth order would make total sense 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:01.280 because birth order, as everybody knows, is nothing but positions 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.640 of superiority or inferiority. And it's it's as simple as that. 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:08.280 Because when you're born and you're a little kid, and 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.080 you're born into a family with an older sibling, they 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.160 are a couple of steps ahead of you because they've 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:16.000 already been through a bunch of stuff, so they're inherently 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.359 superior to you. They can also beat you up on 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.800 a very basic level. They can twist your arm behind 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:22.680 your back until it feels like it's going to break, 0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:25.800 and how many times you say uncle, uncle, uncle, they 0:19:25.800 --> 0:19:29.600 won't stop until they're satisfied or protect you. Like my 0:19:29.800 --> 0:19:33.360 big brother did from his friends that were jerks to me. 0:19:34.200 --> 0:19:37.160 He wouldn't stand for it. No couples. We went at 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.480 it too, you know, we were brothers, but he never 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:44.000 picked on me. You know why, because you chuck and 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:47.760 he's Scott right. Uh. In the eighties is when I 0:19:47.800 --> 0:19:50.800 mean there were always studies starting since Adler and freud Stein, 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:53.680 but in the nineteen eighties is when it really blew up, 0:19:54.080 --> 0:19:59.120 thanks to um, the Big and cocaine, the Big Five 0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:03.760 personality trade the view of things, um, and that's when 0:20:03.800 --> 0:20:06.159 things in the eighties, that's when everybody was just like 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:08.560 eating the stuff up. Yeah, because so the Big Five 0:20:08.640 --> 0:20:12.639 Personality inventory is We've talked about it before, but basically 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:17.639 it is a a self reported measure that is actually valid. 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.639 It actually works, like you can say this person is 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:25.440 highly neurotic, or this person is extroverted, or um, well 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.720 three others that I can't bring to mind right now. 0:20:28.080 --> 0:20:30.800 But these things are also kind of broken into subcategories, 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.439 like these are big umbrella terms have more specific subcategories. 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:37.800 But it's actually like valid, Like somebody who fills this 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.760 survey out, it's going to be an accurate assessment of 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:45.520 their personality. So if you have somebody's personality, that's huge, right. 0:20:45.600 --> 0:20:48.560 You can say, all right, um, if this person is neurotic, 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.199 they're highly neurotic. Let's see what birth order they are, Oh, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:53.879 they're a middle child. Let's compare them to other middle 0:20:53.960 --> 0:20:57.480 children who filled out this personality survey scored high on neurosis, 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:00.520 and all of a sudden, we can show if you're 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.359 a middle child, you're far likelier to be highly neurotic 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.840 under the Big Five personality inventory than the first born 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:12.600 is right, boom bam, you just proved that birth order 0:21:12.600 --> 0:21:18.720 effects exist? Or did you? Yeah, they're like we can 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.640 put people further into a box and label them um 0:21:22.760 --> 0:21:24.800 or did you? Because that is sort of the paradox 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.280 that arrived that we arrive at, which is you pointed 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:30.639 to it a little bit earlier. There are so many, 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:37.960 so many influences that go into what makes you you that. Uh, 0:21:38.119 --> 0:21:40.240 it's hard to look at birth order as a mere 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.160 small part of that. Yeah, so so like you can't 0:21:43.160 --> 0:21:45.199 account you can account for some of these and studying it. 0:21:46.280 --> 0:21:48.200 You know, there's a lot of studies over the years 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:50.840 and they do their best, but you can't account for 0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:53.200 all of them. Well okay, so so we'll go back 0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:56.080 to that example. So you've you've just gone to your 0:21:56.200 --> 0:22:00.240 peers and said, look, I have just proven that idle 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:04.639 children are highly neurotic compared to other children in birth orders. Right, 0:22:05.119 --> 0:22:08.480 then you're shaking your own fists around your your shoulders 0:22:08.480 --> 0:22:10.280 in triumph. And they said, well, wait a minute, wait 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:14.600 a minute, um, did you control for socioeconomic background? And 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.320 you go, uh no, I didn't. Well wait did you 0:22:17.359 --> 0:22:21.000 control for race? No? Did you control for gender? No? 0:22:21.440 --> 0:22:23.600 And so all of a sudden you realize there's all 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:28.360 these different, um independent variables. What what what in this 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.159 case would be confounding variables that might actually be the 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:34.080 thing influencing it. It might be the fact that they 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:40.520 are um uh feet women born into families of a 0:22:40.600 --> 0:22:45.680 low socioeconomic state that is driving neurosis, that that's actually 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:47.760 the thing that is driving it, rather than birth order 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:49.560 has nothing to do with being a middle child. That's 0:22:49.600 --> 0:22:52.760 just a fluke of coincidence. And like you said, there's 0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:56.440 so many confounding variables and so many things that make 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.760 our personalities who we are that some people who are 0:22:59.800 --> 0:23:02.960 like birth order effects do not exist. Basically say that 0:23:03.160 --> 0:23:06.000 any birth order study that shows that they do exist 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:09.680 has some confounding variable that that's the actual hidden thing 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.320 that's driving it that you can't possibly control for everything 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:18.240 to make a perfect, perfectly designed experiment too for birth order. Yeah, 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:20.199 like when you start to think about, like if you 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:21.960 were just to sit there and sort of jot down 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:26.440 things as non scientists, just regular schmos like us, uh, 0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.080 and just jot down a list of what other factors 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:31.359 might be at play. We could probably come up with 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.440 a list of a hundred things between us. Let's start now. 0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:37.879