1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie, and this is Bridget, and you're 2 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: listening to stuff mom never told you. And today we're 3 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: going to talk about women throughout history pretending to be men. 4 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: And this came up in response to our video games 5 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: episode where I mentioned about a lot of women pretend 6 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: to be men online to avoid harassment or choose a 7 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: general gender neutral sounding avatar name, and I didn't realize 8 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:46,159 Speaker 1: until some listeners wrote in how common this practice has 9 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,400 Speaker 1: been throughout history minus the video game part, the pretending, 10 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,000 Speaker 1: the pretending to be men to avoid harrassment or or 11 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: to achieve something part um and justin aside, because I 12 00:00:58,720 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 1: am a Marvel geek, this is about Thor and Loki 13 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: stickally me Um. Thor and Loki pretended to be women 14 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: in Norse mythology as a ploy to get back mill 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: near Um. That's Thor's hammer, of course, and the hammer 16 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: kidnapper wants a lady in exchange, but said lady says 17 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: hell no, so Flora pretends to be her, with Loki 18 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: pretending to be her handmaid. And the kidnapper was surprised 19 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: to see his bride at kith Or eat enough for 20 00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: thirty men, and Loki explains it away as excitement and 21 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:40,160 Speaker 1: then thor kills everyone. Anyway, that's a literature example of 22 00:01:40,280 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 1: men pretending to be women that I just thought was 23 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: so I had to share it because, Um, I am 24 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: a big marvel because because you're a geek, thanks Bridget. 25 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,840 Speaker 1: I mean I say that with love as a fellow geek. 26 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,639 Speaker 1: You are very lovingly a geek. One of my um 27 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: first roles, because I do, I have done some acting 28 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: in my day, and one of my first roles was 29 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:10,080 Speaker 1: as uh cow number one on Noah's Ark, and I 30 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: was the male cow and I had like a big, 31 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: like bull ring thing in my nose. You know when 32 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: you were a child or an adult. This is like 33 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: two weeks ago. No, no, I was a child. But 34 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,399 Speaker 1: there's a very embarrassing picture of me having the time 35 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: of my life, I must say, but dressed as a 36 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 1: mail count. Okay, so before we get started, UM, we 37 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,360 Speaker 1: did want to include a disclaimer here. We're specifically looking 38 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: at historical examples of women pretending to be men and 39 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: pretending to as a way to accomplish a dream, or 40 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 1: to achieve an occupation aspiration, or to overcome an obstacle, 41 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: or for self protection. UM, basically doing it because being 42 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: a one and was was it wasn't allowed at that time. 43 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: Whatever it was they were trying to go after our 44 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: it was very difficult, and some people were going to 45 00:03:08,760 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: talk about possibly did identify as men. History can get 46 00:03:13,200 --> 00:03:17,160 Speaker 1: really murky around that, and we haven't been really great 47 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: throughout throughout our history about using the correct pronouns for 48 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: people are even having language around various gender identities. We 49 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: we did try to be thorough. Some some names were 50 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: on the list and then got removed because we think 51 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: we should do deeper dives or full episodes on them. Um, 52 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:39,680 Speaker 1: which we did our best, but history it's not always 53 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 1: the best at that. It's a great disclaimer. I'm glad 54 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: that you added it, um. So let's get started, shall we. 55 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,960 Speaker 1: Art and sports. Women were tending to be men. Happened 56 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: all the time in Shakespeare, and it's made all the 57 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: more confusing about the fact that women weren't even allowed 58 00:03:56,280 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: to act in plays during that time, so men playing 59 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: women tended to be men. Wrap your heat around that. Yeah, 60 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: Seven out of thirty eight plays featured women pretending to 61 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 1: be men most of the time for safety, because traveling 62 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: alone as a woman wasn't safe and you know what, 63 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:19,240 Speaker 1: things really have not changed. Yeah, I kind of wish. 64 00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: There's a part of me that kind kind of wants 65 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: to see a play done in this manner, because I 66 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: do think it would be so confusing to have a 67 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: character that the character is a woman, and the woman 68 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: in the play is pretending to be a man, but 69 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: only men could play women. Oh that's like that movie. 70 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:42,919 Speaker 1: Um No, a much trashier example movie where um, the 71 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: woman from My Big Fat Mia vardlows the woman from 72 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: a Big fat Greek Wedding. She is a woman, but 73 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 1: she wants to compete as a drag queen, so she 74 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: sort of is a woman pretending to be a man 75 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: pretending to be a woman. I forget the name of 76 00:04:57,640 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: the movie was not It was not a big success, 77 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 1: but okay, well we'll look into that later. Um, fictional 78 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: female characters aren't the only ones doing this. Female authors 79 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: were too, and in some cases still are. Like Charlotte Bronte. 80 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: For her first works in the eighteen hundreds, she used 81 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: the more gender neutral name of kerb Bell. She used 82 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:23,559 Speaker 1: this pen name in the first edition of Jane Eyre, 83 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: and her sisters did the same thing. Charlotte said outright 84 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:31,039 Speaker 1: that she did it because female authors were quote liable 85 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: to be looked upon with prejudice. Mary Ann Evans published 86 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: works under her pen name George Elliott so as to 87 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: avoid criticism and stereotypes about her work, and Dorothy Lucille 88 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 1: tipped in. When she was young, she knew she wanted 89 00:05:45,120 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: to be a musician and became adept at playing piano 90 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: and saxophone. To open more avenues for herself, she started 91 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 1: performing under her father's name, Billy Tipton, while dressed as 92 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 1: a man, and eventually adopted the name full time and 93 00:05:58,720 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: the appearance full time. Billy went on tour and went 94 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: on to form the Billy Tipton Trio. UM and she 95 00:06:05,920 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: found a long term partner, female partner, and adopted three children. Wow, um, 96 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: this is I am familiar with Billy Tipton, and this 97 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: is what I did not know. This is new information 98 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: to me. While always always looking to enlighten in any 99 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: way that I can. And then in sports um in 100 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 1: nine rena kind of kogi, dressed as a man so 101 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: she could compete in the New york Y m C 102 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 1: a judo tournament and she won. When the judges found 103 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: out she was actually a woman, they took back her medal, 104 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:45,280 Speaker 1: so Cana Cog went to Japan, where she became Tokyo's 105 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:49,760 Speaker 1: Kotacan Institute's first female student to train with the men. 106 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 1: She later became the founder of the world's first female 107 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: World Judo Championship held in Madison Square Garden in New York. 108 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: She was also integral and getting female judo added as 109 00:07:01,320 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: an Olympic event. To me, this sounds like the ultimate 110 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: revenge story. They took back her medal, so she went 111 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:14,559 Speaker 1: to Japan and then started her own own championship held 112 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: at Madison Square Garden. They need to make this into 113 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: a movie, because I would definitely watch it. That actually 114 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: sounds a lot like the story of Katherine Switzer, who 115 00:07:24,320 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: pretended to be a man to enter the nineteen sixties 116 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: seven Boston Marathon, which was a male's only event at 117 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: the time. She went on to win the New York 118 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: City Marathon in nineteen seventy four. So basically, when you 119 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,760 Speaker 1: force a woman to pretend to be a man to 120 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: compete equally, and then you you know, don't let her 121 00:07:40,440 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: win or whatever, she goes on to do great things 122 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: and achieve great glory. That's so that's the moral of 123 00:07:45,320 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: this story, it sounds like, well, I can say that 124 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: UM one of my best motivators revenge. I can be 125 00:07:54,440 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: quite vindictive, but it's it's good for UM. I don't 126 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 1: know if it's the healthiest motivator, but it is a 127 00:08:03,000 --> 00:08:07,520 Speaker 1: good motivator. But it certainly is effective. If we look 128 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: at more modern day times UM. J k Rowling, who 129 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 1: wrote the Harry Potter books. In case you're unfamiliar, she 130 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 1: went by her initials at the behest of her publisher, 131 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: who told her she'd sell more books, especially to young boys, 132 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: if people thought she was a man. I tried the 133 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: same thing when I was doing a lot more writing 134 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: on the internet. I thought that if I wrote under 135 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,800 Speaker 1: my first initial that people would I don't know, I 136 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: think I think I At the time it was sort 137 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: of the highlight of like women getting a lot of 138 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: trolling for writing online, and I sort of didn't have 139 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: the emotional capacity to deal with that at the time. 140 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: But I still wanted to write, so I thought if 141 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: I did that, it would help UM. And I also 142 00:08:52,720 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: thought it would take people would hit you more seriously. 143 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: Obviously I was never as big as J. K Rowling, 144 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: but I can understand the sentiment for sure, not yet, 145 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 1: bridget There's not yet. Maybe when I published my wizard novel, 146 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 1: you'll you'll all be sorry. In the early two thousand's, 147 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,440 Speaker 1: feminist lesbian journalist Nora Vincent took vocal lessons and pretended 148 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: to be ned Vincent for eighteen months, even joining a 149 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: bowling league to investigate whether or not she'd be treated 150 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: differently as a man. Yeah. I read all about this 151 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 1: when doing the research for for this episode, because I 152 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: had never heard about it before. And it was kind 153 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: of sweet because she said then the bowling league specifically 154 00:09:35,559 --> 00:09:39,520 Speaker 1: that they didn't treat her any differently, like they it 155 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 1: was just a group of a group of guys that 156 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,640 Speaker 1: weren't doing this what we hear a lot that men 157 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: are talking about like just women and having sex. But 158 00:09:48,760 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 1: it was just a fun time. And then when she 159 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: revealed like I'm actually this this journalist who is a woman, 160 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: They're like, oh, oh cool, you still want to be 161 00:09:57,960 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: inter bowling league sounds our real strike for gender equality. 162 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: Oh yes, we couldnowledge my joke. Please, we could be 163 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 1: a comedy duo. We would take the world by storm. 164 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,479 Speaker 1: People are out there and rolling their eyes and groaning. 165 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: You are welcome. Um, so those are our big examples 166 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: in the in the world of art and sports, but 167 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,320 Speaker 1: we have we have many, many more examples. But first 168 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: we're going to take a quick break for word from 169 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 1: our sponsor and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So now 170 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:47,880 Speaker 1: let's look at the world of religion and politics some 171 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: other professions in there. There are a lot of examples 172 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: in religion, but one of the big ones is St. Marina. 173 00:10:56,520 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: In the eighth century CE, Marina pretended to be a 174 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: boy so she could go with her father to a 175 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: male only monastery. She became a monk under the name 176 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: of Marinus. And even when she or he because this 177 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: is one case where I wasn't I was never quite queer. 178 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 1: If she or he identified as Marina or Mariness was 179 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: falsely accused of impregnating an innkeeper's daughter, um, she did 180 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: not reveal her secret. She raised the child after being 181 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: kicked out of the monastery, and she was forced to 182 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 1: beg for money, and she died without anyone knowing. Wow. 183 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: My favorite examples of these are when it's it's successful 184 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: and like it's not discovered until much later, or they 185 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: get they you know, they win whatever the things are 186 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: trying to win. Take for instance, eighteen o nine, the 187 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: family of Margaret Ann Bulky conspired to make some money 188 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,960 Speaker 1: by disguising their daughter as James Barry and enrolling her 189 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: in medical school because yes, back then women were not allowed. 190 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: She passed her surgeon's exam and became a medic in 191 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 1: the British Army. She worked her up to principal medical officers, 192 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 1: serving in India and South Africa, where she performed one 193 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: of the s C sections ever on record, and the 194 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: first successful one by a British surgeon in Africa. She 195 00:12:05,280 --> 00:12:08,959 Speaker 1: pushed for sanitations in hospitals and improved military hospitals until 196 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,679 Speaker 1: she died of dysentery. In the British Army kept her 197 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: record sealed for a century. Yeah that one, Um again, 198 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: we could do a whole episode devoted to that story. 199 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's like a movie. It is that so 200 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: many of these could be turned into movies. I mean, 201 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,720 Speaker 1: call is up. Not that we have it, like any 202 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: rights to anything. I mean I would want to. I 203 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: would want to call us up and invite us to 204 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: go see it when it's made. Oh yes, well, I 205 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: will say my favorite Disney movie to this day is 206 00:12:41,880 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: about this very this very thing Mulan, and we will 207 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 1: be talking about Mulan, but first we're going to talk 208 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 1: about Charlotte Parkhurst, who, in order to get out of 209 00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: an orphanage and to be able to support herself, started 210 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 1: going by Charlie Parkhurst and introducing her herself as male. 211 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: In the nineteenth cent tree, she learned how to drive horses, 212 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: and she moved out west and got a job as 213 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: a stagecoach driver, and she was good at it too. 214 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: She had a reputation, and in eighteen sixty eight she 215 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: became the first woman to vote in California when she 216 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: cast a ballot in the presidential election. It wasn't until 217 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: she died of tongue cancer in nineteen seventy nine that 218 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 1: her secret came out. Okay, so shout out to Mary Anderson. 219 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 1: The New York politician Murray Hall, who had been practicing 220 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: politics for twenty five years, died in nineteen o one. 221 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: It was discovered that he was actually a she, Mary Anderson. 222 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: Mary had been smoking cigars and drinking whiskey with the boys. 223 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: Four years she voted, which just a reminder women could 224 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 1: not do it that time. Unfortunately, she died of breast cancer, 225 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: which she refused to seek treatment for to not give 226 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: away her identity. Yeah. I read a lot of fun 227 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: accounts of her at the drinking, drinking saloons in the 228 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 1: North Saloons at that time. But yeah, smoking these cigars 229 00:14:02,880 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: and I think I think she was gambling and playing 230 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: card games and because that's what it was expected at 231 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: the time. That was a very male dominated world where 232 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 1: you would go do these things as part of the 233 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 1: job is to make connections and stuff. So, yeah, have 234 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: you ever seen the movie The Associate? I have not, Okay, 235 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:24,600 Speaker 1: So the plot of The Associate is basically the plot 236 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 1: of every movie where a woman disguises themselves as a man. 237 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 1: It's the eighties. Whoopi Goldberg is the smart single woman 238 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 1: trying to make it in Wall Street and kind of 239 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: climb the corporate ladder, but she feels like she keeps 240 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: getting passed over because she's a woman. So she becomes Mr. 241 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: David Cuddy, which is her like male identity, and Diane 242 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: Weiss is in it, and it's full of hijinks. That's 243 00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: like every movie. Um. Another one is One of the Guys, 244 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: which is terrible but also awesome, where it's a female, 245 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: like a high school female journalist who pretends to be 246 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 1: a guy because she wants to get a journalism scholarship 247 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,880 Speaker 1: or some such nonsense. I actually there's like, I feel 248 00:15:01,880 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: like there's an entire genre of women pretending to be 249 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: men to get some sort of career advancement and Hijinks 250 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: and Sue. You know, I expect that's a that's a 251 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: whole thing, hi Jinks and Sue. Indeed, Um, well, you're 252 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 1: always adding to my the movies that I need to 253 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: watch to get caught up in popcorn. I mean, just 254 00:15:23,880 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: One of the Guys is not a good movie. But 255 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: if you're like hungover on a Saturday, perfect. Okay, I'll 256 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: put that in the back pocket. Let's move on to 257 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: to war and to explorers, because women pretending to be 258 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: men to participate in more has been a fairly common 259 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:48,080 Speaker 1: practice throughout history. And we're going to start with Mulan. Yay, 260 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,320 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I love I love Mulan. It's the best 261 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: Disney movie. It's so good. The soundtrack still slaps to 262 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: this day. To this day, if I have to get 263 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: work done, I listened to that one song. Um is 264 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: it be a man? Us? My favorite? Be a Man 265 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: is good? Um. I also feel like if you hear them, 266 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: if you hear the phrase let's get down to business, 267 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 1: you can't think anything other than to defeat the Huns. Right, 268 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: it's impossible. It's impossible. Anyway, let's get down to business 269 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 1: and talk about Mulan. Yeah, because Disney did not invent 270 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: this story, they definitely expounded upon it. I mean, there's 271 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 1: no talking dragon in real life. Well, I can't say 272 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: for sure. I wasn't there. Um, it's based on a 273 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: poem that goes all the way back to sixth century 274 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: c E. From the Ballad of Mulan. Quote. Her comrades 275 00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: are all amazed and perplexed, traveling together for twelve years. 276 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 1: They didn't know Mulan was a girl. That he hairs 277 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: feet go hop and skip the she hair's eyes are 278 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: muddled and fuddled. Two hairs running side by side close 279 00:16:50,560 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 1: to the ground. How can they tell if I am 280 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: he or she? And I think from that Disney braid al, 281 00:16:59,640 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: maybe there's more talk about extrapolating into something great. Right. 282 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 1: Sweden actually has their own version of this story, with 283 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: Elisa burning Strum during the Finnish War with Sweden in 284 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,119 Speaker 1: eighteen o eight and eighteen o nine. Alisa pretended to 285 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,080 Speaker 1: be a man. Undeterred by the Swedish armies no women 286 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: allowed policy at the time, she found her way to 287 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 1: her husband in Stockholm and stayed with him, where she 288 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 1: served in the queen's regime. When she was discovered, her 289 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: service was commended. So this again, this is like a 290 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: like an example where she does a good thing and 291 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: people are like, yeah, we're glad you did this. Yeah. 292 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: Brita Hagberg did the same thing in seventeen seventy eight 293 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: during the Russo Swedish War, posing as a man so 294 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: she could join the Swedish army and find her husband. 295 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: She refused treatment when she was injured, but was found 296 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: out anyway. Instead of punishment, she was rewarded for her 297 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:58,119 Speaker 1: courage and she found her husband. And of course, no 298 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: conversation about women pretending to be man in the military 299 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: is complete without discussing Joan of Arc. In the fifteenth century, 300 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: Joan of Arc took out a male persona to protect 301 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: her virginity and to lead the French army during the 302 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: Hundred Year War. She was captured, revealed, and burned at 303 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:16,360 Speaker 1: the stake for heresy at age nineteen. At age nineteen, 304 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:20,520 Speaker 1: I feel like I always forget how young she was. Yeah, 305 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 1: can you imagine? No, not really, not really. There's a 306 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: pretty good drunk history about this whole thing from up 307 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: forever ago, I'm sure, but I remember I remember that 308 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: episode pretty well. Um. We have the story of Hannah Snell. 309 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 1: After her infant daughter died and her husband deserted her, 310 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,120 Speaker 1: Hannah took on the identity of James Gray and went 311 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 1: in search of her husband. When she learned he had 312 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: been executed, she joined the Royal Marines and went to 313 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:55,200 Speaker 1: battle twice. She didn't reveal herself to anyone until after 314 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 1: her and her shipmates returned to England and she managed 315 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,440 Speaker 1: to secure a military mentioned was really rare, I mean, 316 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: I guess obviously, because not too many women were in 317 00:19:03,520 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 1: the military. Um. And she opened a pub appropriately called 318 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: the Female Warrior. Oh I love that. I'd go to 319 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: a pub called the Female Warrior. I wonder if it's 320 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: still open, listeners, let us know if you don't. There's 321 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 1: also Pirates, that's right, Pirates and Bonnie and Mary read Now, 322 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:27,680 Speaker 1: just keep in mind the stories of the early lives 323 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: of both of these ladies are highly speculated. Most of 324 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 1: the information comes from one source thought by some to 325 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:37,360 Speaker 1: be penned by the pseudonym of Daniel Dafoe. Okay, so 326 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: let's start with Anne Bonnie. She was born in Ireland 327 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 1: in and she was the baby of an affair between 328 00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: her father and his former wife, who left After this incident, 329 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: they're made Supposedly, he dressed her as a boy and 330 00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: introduced her as a child and his care to avoid 331 00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 1: any scandal. However, scandal could not be escaped, and the 332 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: family moved to South Carolina. She became a bit of 333 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 1: a friar cracker, and Bonnie did after her mother died, 334 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 1: allegedly killing a servant girl and a man who tried 335 00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:14,840 Speaker 1: to rape her. Her father believed her behavior was hurting 336 00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,919 Speaker 1: his business, so he disowned her and she went on 337 00:20:17,960 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: to marry James Bonnie, who was a poor sailor. She 338 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: didn't really settle down, though, keeping up her rebellious behavior, 339 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: spending a lot of her time sleeping with a bunch 340 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 1: of fellas and a lot of her time drinking. One 341 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 1: suitor particularly enraptured her, and she left behind her husband 342 00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: and joined his crew. One tale suggests that her first 343 00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 1: act as a pirate was standing over a mannequin smeared 344 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: with fake blood, limbs all twisted up, and an axe overhead, 345 00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: and that seeing this, a passing French ship gave up 346 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,960 Speaker 1: their cargo no question. When one of her crew members 347 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: talked some trash about her, she stabbed him in the heart. 348 00:20:57,720 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: While on the ship, she dressed as a woman, but 349 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: win in battle she dressed as a man. According to 350 00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:06,320 Speaker 1: a few sources, the ship Money was on possibly conquered 351 00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,840 Speaker 1: the ship that Mary Read, a woman dressed as a man, 352 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 1: was sailing on. Bonnie attempted to seduce Read, but Read 353 00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:14,480 Speaker 1: confided to Bonnie that she was a woman, and the 354 00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: two became friends and possibly lovers. I love this story 355 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,200 Speaker 1: so much so. Mary Reid was born after the death 356 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 1: of her father and baby brother, a baby who her 357 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: mother's mother in law had been financially supporting. Anxious to 358 00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: keep the payments coming, Reid's mother got pregnant with Mary 359 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,760 Speaker 1: and disguised her as her dead son to keep a stipend, 360 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,560 Speaker 1: which is a pretty good scamp if I may say 361 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: so myself. But the mother in law figured it out 362 00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: pretty soon and the payments stopped. Her mom continued dressing 363 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: her as a boy because she thought that she would 364 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,119 Speaker 1: have a better time getting work as a servant. She 365 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: joined the Army of Flanders, where she fell in love 366 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 1: with her bunk mate and told him her secret. She 367 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,360 Speaker 1: quit the army and married the man, but he died 368 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 1: shortly after, so she went back to being a man 369 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: and joined the ship's crew, which was overtaken by the 370 00:21:56,960 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 1: ship Bonnie was on. Reid was ruthless, brash, and prone 371 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: to her sing, so nobody suspected a thing. And you 372 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: can see how these two would be close friends. It 373 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 1: sounds like they have similar personalities. Bonnie and Reid went 374 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: into battles together and fought alongside each other. One observer 375 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: said of them they were quote willing to do anything. 376 00:22:18,880 --> 00:22:20,639 Speaker 1: One night, when most of the crew was drunk and 377 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: or asleep, one of the governor's ships approached and ordered 378 00:22:24,520 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 1: the pirate ship to surrender. The captain agreed, but Bonnie 379 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: and Read refused and attacked. Read shouted to the men 380 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: hiding below deck, if there's a man, amongey, you'll come 381 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: up and fight like the man you are to be, 382 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: and no one answered, but she shot at her own 383 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 1: crew in response and killed one. Eventually, the two women 384 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,719 Speaker 1: were captured, the captain Bonnie's lover was sentenced to hanging, 385 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: and when his request to see her one last time 386 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 1: was granted, the last thing she said to him was quote, 387 00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:02,119 Speaker 1: if you had like a man, you need not have 388 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: been hanged like a dog. That is cold. It's so cold. 389 00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 1: Bonnie and Read were also sentenced to hang, but we're 390 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: both granted to stay because both of them were pregnant. 391 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: Read died a year later, but Bonnie was released and 392 00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: went on to get married and have kids. Yeah, speculation 393 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 1: or not, those are pretty amazing stories. Oh my god, 394 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: if you were casting this as a movie, who would 395 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 1: you cast as Bonnie and Read? Oh? I don't know. 396 00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: Who's a Who's a firecracker in Hollywood? What? What? What 397 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 1: do you think? Bridget? Um? Oh god, what a question? Um? 398 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: I would love to see. Um can I say, I'm 399 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:48,320 Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna mix it up. I'm gonna go Cardi B. 400 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:54,639 Speaker 1: Tiffany Hattish, Oh I love it. Wouldn't it be hilarious? Um, 401 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 1: Melissa McCarthy, Tiffany Hattish will be good. It wouldn't that 402 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:06,239 Speaker 1: be interesting? Um? Yeah? If anyone thinking of it as 403 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 1: a comedy, you clearly are. I mean, it's comedic. There 404 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: all right, could be read that way. I suppose it's not. 405 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 1: I'm assuming there's a lot of speculation in here, um, 406 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,159 Speaker 1: which makes it easier to laugh at. But um, perhaps not, 407 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: perhaps not. If anyone has any ideal casting, please send 408 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 1: it our way. We'd love to love to cast this. Also, 409 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: nobody steal our idea. This is I don't know what 410 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 1: the copyright issue is. Whatever we're this is going to 411 00:24:35,160 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: be a bridge and anti production. No one, We're gonna 412 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,440 Speaker 1: no one's still this idea. You can't have it. It's ours. 413 00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure that's that's how it works. It's like 414 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: the law of DIBs or something. If you say DIBs 415 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: on a podcast that's legally binding. Yeah, that's that's what 416 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 1: I understand. Maybe we should do a production of it, 417 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: Bridget Oh my god. Okay, we gotta move on, and 418 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: we're gonna getting way off jack here Um. We do 419 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,360 Speaker 1: have some more war stories for you, but first we're 420 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,240 Speaker 1: gonna pause for one more quick break for a word 421 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 1: from our sponsor, and we're back, Thank you sponsor. So, 422 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: during the Revolutionary War, Deborah Sampson joined the army under 423 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 1: the name Robert shirt Left, and she served for two 424 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:33,800 Speaker 1: years undertaking dangerous missions and treating her own injuries to 425 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: avoid discovery, including digging out a pistol ball from her 426 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: own leg. When she was found out, she was honorably 427 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,280 Speaker 1: discharged and became the first and only woman to receive 428 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 1: military pension for this war. She also became the first 429 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: woman to go touring presenting our long lectures about her experiences, 430 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 1: sometimes in military justice. After her death, her husband's successfully 431 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: petitioned Congress to see payment as the spouse of a soldier. 432 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: In their decision, Congress said history quote furnished no other 433 00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: similar example of female heroism, fatality, and courage. I would 434 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: have been at that tour man. Wow. Again, it seems 435 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: like when women do this, a lot of the stories 436 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: end with them doing a great job and and like 437 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: it being accepted as as a heroic thing. I wonder 438 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: how many women either never got caught or whose stories 439 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: we don't hear is often because they aren't as um. 440 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:37,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to say upbeat, but you know, inspiration alert. Yeah, 441 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: it didn't. It didn't end with se an award and 442 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: like a lecture circuit or something. Yeah. That brings us 443 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: to the Civil War, where over four hundred women posed 444 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: as men to serve. Here are just a few. During 445 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 1: the Civil War, Melinda Blila pretended to be a man 446 00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,119 Speaker 1: named Samuel to enlist in the war and join up 447 00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,239 Speaker 1: with her husband, which she did and the couple went 448 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: on to desert their posts and became scouts with the Union. 449 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: Canadian Sarah Edmonds also joined the Union during the American 450 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,040 Speaker 1: Civil War disguised as a man, and she served as 451 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: both field nurse and spy. She didn't check into a 452 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 1: hospital when she contracted malaria to protect her identity, but 453 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: when she got better, she went back to being Sarah 454 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,400 Speaker 1: Edmonds and worked as a hospital nurse. Jenny Irene Hadres 455 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,360 Speaker 1: became Albert Cashier to enlist as a soldier under Ulysses 456 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: s Grant during the Civil War and fought over forty battles. 457 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: She was captured, was able to overpower her guard and 458 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: escape before she was discovered. She did not drop her 459 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 1: Albert Cashier persona after the war and took on all 460 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 1: sorts of professions. She drew a veterans pension and voted. 461 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:40,919 Speaker 1: In nineteen ten, she was hit by a car and 462 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,520 Speaker 1: broke her leg, but she convinced the doctor not to 463 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 1: tell anybody as old age eroded her mental state, she 464 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:49,879 Speaker 1: moved into a retirement home for soldiers, and her caretakers 465 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: found out that she was a woman. Now she had 466 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: to wear a dress for the rest of her life, 467 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: but she was buried in her military dress. After her death, 468 00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 1: two tombstones were erected, one for Albert Cashier and one 469 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: later with both names when she was traced back to 470 00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: Jenny Hodgers. And then there's Cafe Williams, who was born 471 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 1: a slave in eighteen forty four Missouri. When the Union 472 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,920 Speaker 1: came and occupied the state, slaves were seen as contraband 473 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: and required to serve in the army in support positions 474 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: like cook, which Williams did before. She took on the 475 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: name of William Cafe at the age of seventeen and 476 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:27,880 Speaker 1: enlisted voluntarily, the first African American woman to do so. 477 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,200 Speaker 1: Several bouts of illnesses revealed that she was in fact 478 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: a woman, and she was honorably discharged. But she wasn't done. 479 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,200 Speaker 1: She joined the all black regiment, the Buffalo Soldiers, the 480 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: only known woman to do so, but she was denied pension. Famous. 481 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 1: That's awful. Yeah, these that one is sad and this 482 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: this next one is a little spoiler. It's a little 483 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: of a downer. Yeah, it's a little sad. With the 484 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: help of two male soldiers, teenager Dorothy Lawrence pretended to 485 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: be Private Dennis Smith during World War One, with the 486 00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: ultimate goal of reporting on what was happening from the 487 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,800 Speaker 1: front lines. She landed a job as a Royal engineer 488 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,360 Speaker 1: and laid minds on the front lines, but grew worried 489 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 1: that the men that helped her would get in trouble 490 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: if she was discovered and confessed. The British Army interrogated 491 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,680 Speaker 1: her to make sure she was in a German spy now. 492 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 1: Once they determined that she wasn't, they sent her home 493 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: and made her sign an affidavit to ensure that she 494 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't tell anybody because they didn't want other ladies getting ideas. 495 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: This meant she couldn't get any work, and even when 496 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: she told her story at the war's conclusion, the War 497 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: Office centered much of it. She was institutionalized and Insane Asylum, 498 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: where she died in nineteen sixty four. That's yeah, that's 499 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: a bummer. We we ended we we ended the episode 500 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: on a bumber because that is all of the names 501 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 1: that that we're on our list and she never even 502 00:29:47,560 --> 00:29:51,760 Speaker 1: got to tell her story. Really, I know, Um, and 503 00:29:51,800 --> 00:29:54,960 Speaker 1: it's an amazing story. So many of the of these 504 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: things we've talked about, our stories that deserve to be told, 505 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: and that we really could have made entire episodes about. 506 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,040 Speaker 1: It's it's quite amazing. Yeah, I'm always surprised, and I 507 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 1: shouldn't be. But history, history has so many stories that 508 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 1: are fascinating. Hollywood couldn't do it better. One of my 509 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: professors said once. Absolutely, these stories read like something out 510 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: of a fascinating novel. It just goes to show our 511 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: our history can be pretty interesting. Absolutely. If there is 512 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 1: anyone that we left out, or anyone you would like 513 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: for us to expound upon, listeners, please write in. Please 514 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: write in with your ideal casting for any of these. 515 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear that as well. Um, and that 516 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: brings us to listener mail. Sam wrote, I listened to 517 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: Sminty every week and have been fascinated by some of 518 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: the emails you have read about the Name Change podcast, 519 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: as well as the comments on the Facebook page. I 520 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 1: noticed two disturbing paradigms emerging in them. The first is 521 00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,360 Speaker 1: the belief that all members of family having an identical 522 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: surname means that the family is more quote cohesive or 523 00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: more of a unit. I find this idea to be 524 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: anti blended family. As someone raised by a step parent 525 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 1: from the age of seven, I have experienced this bias 526 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 1: for the majority of my life. The second disturbing paradigm 527 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:16,479 Speaker 1: emerging in these emails is that men own names and 528 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: women do not. For example, I've often heard women say, well, 529 00:31:19,840 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: my last name is just my father's name, so I'll 530 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: take my husband's. Why does the husband in this scenario 531 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 1: own his name while the woman is merely borrowing hers 532 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: from her father. A more internally consistent sentence would read, 533 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,600 Speaker 1: my last name is just my father's name, so I 534 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: will take my father in law's name. But I'm sure 535 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 1: you can see that that sentence sounds off. The second 536 00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: paradigm is epitomized in the idea that a woman should 537 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: quote change back after a divorce, as if she were 538 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: just borring the name from her husband. Although it is 539 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: interesting and worthwhile to listen to different women's experiences, framing 540 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 1: this topic as being about individual women's choices obscured the 541 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 1: more insidious ideologies that pervade our society, And I thought 542 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: this was so such a great email, UM, because it's true, 543 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: I UM. On one side of my family, there is 544 00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: a lot of there's so many different names, UM, but 545 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: they are definitely a cohesive family unit. And I understand 546 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: the like ease factor for sure, UM, but I think 547 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: it is worth looking into why we we feel this 548 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: way and just like, on a deeper level, what has 549 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: influenced this whole idea of UM women changing their names. Definitely, 550 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: And I I've said this a hundred times. Every time 551 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 1: we get another letter, it makes me. It adds another 552 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: wrinkle to the conversation and at just this conversation is 553 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,120 Speaker 1: so nuanced, and there's so many different reasons why why 554 00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 1: not complications, misconceptions, just yeah, we have to do that 555 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,200 Speaker 1: episode where we just read these letters because it's there's 556 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: so many And I, as a non married person, sort 557 00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:10,000 Speaker 1: of didn't realize what a fraud issue this is for 558 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: so many of us. Yeah, I didn't either, and it's 559 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: it's been really fascinating and it's such a complex issue. 560 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 1: It really is. Definitely, Megan wrote, I love the podcast 561 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,479 Speaker 1: and I have to say it, it's always enjoyed when 562 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,360 Speaker 1: there's a new episode. Thank you, Megan. I wanted to 563 00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: respond to your discussion on Brett Cafanal. Mainly, I would 564 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: like to share two pieces of advice I've received over 565 00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: the years about contacting senators. I've bet a few people 566 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,120 Speaker 1: who have been on the receiving end of those phone 567 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: calls to congressional offices. Like you both said about people 568 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: being more likely to call it's given a script. The 569 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: interns I know at various offices agree that people who 570 00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,959 Speaker 1: may be using a script and personal reasons for position 571 00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 1: are what makes are compelling case that is more likely 572 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: to gain a senator's attention. Along with this, scripts can 573 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: be handy to avoid going off tangents, prevent any disrespect, 574 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: and to stay on message. While so say that scripts 575 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: may seem insincere, my friends who have received these calls 576 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: are more likely to pay attention if you are succinct, clear, 577 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: and respectful. Anyway, I thought I would share my two 578 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: cents regarding calling senators. UM thank you Megan. As someone 579 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: who has also fielded these calls, I completely agree. I know. 580 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 1: The advice I gave was that if you're a little 581 00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:20,480 Speaker 1: bit anxious I don't know what to say, having a 582 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,480 Speaker 1: script can help. But even if you just tack on 583 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: a quick personal reason to the end of that script. 584 00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: That could be good too, but as Megan said, the 585 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: main thing is that you want to stay clear, succinct 586 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: and respectful. As you all know from this podcast, I 587 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: am a talker. I will go off on a tangent. 588 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,319 Speaker 1: I will bring up a random movie. I will you 589 00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: know that the person on the other end of the 590 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: call would be exhausted by me and would like hang 591 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: up in the middle of the conversation if not for 592 00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: my script. So, Megan, you are very accurate. Thank you 593 00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 1: for writing in. Yeah, And I think from the scripts 594 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,399 Speaker 1: that I've used, usually there's a there's a space like 595 00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: if you would like to insert personal story, do so here, 596 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,879 Speaker 1: but creep keep it quick, like because you also want 597 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: other people to be able to get through too. And 598 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:10,200 Speaker 1: um yeah, I'll definitely like my mind will go totally 599 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: blank if I don't want to have something in front 600 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:15,760 Speaker 1: of me on the phone. I like, this is true. 601 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: When I call my mom, I write down like bullet points. Oh, 602 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: when I call for a pizza, I have I have 603 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: a script. Riten now, because you never know what your 604 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: your brain is gonna do, and you want to be prepared. Um, 605 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,600 Speaker 1: so yes. Thanks to both of them for writing in. 606 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,359 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to as you can 607 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: our emails mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com 608 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,040 Speaker 1: and you can always find us on Twitter at mom 609 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast and on Instagram at Stuff Mom Never Told You. 610 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,440 Speaker 1: And thanks as always to our producer Andrew Howard