WEBVTT - The Importance of Psychic Safety

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<v Speaker 1>Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with

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<v Speaker 1>me your girl, Daniel Moody, recording from the home Bunker. Folks,

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<v Speaker 1>let's take a break from oh I don't know, the

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<v Speaker 1>serious amount of crazy that has been circulating around since

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<v Speaker 1>the quote unquote assassination attempt of Donald Trump for a

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<v Speaker 1>second time in two months, the influx of violence into Springfield,

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<v Speaker 1>Ohio because of Donald Trump and JD Vance's stochastic terrorism,

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<v Speaker 1>the just overwhelming amount of fuckery that is Trump and

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<v Speaker 1>Laura Lumer and whatever the hell is happening over there.

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<v Speaker 1>And friends, for those of you who have yet to

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<v Speaker 1>venture over to my YouTube channel, I am have done

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<v Speaker 1>a couple of videos on that, so do head over.

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<v Speaker 1>You can go into the YouTube search button and put

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<v Speaker 1>in Danielle Moody channel and woila, there I will be

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<v Speaker 1>Also it is Danielle Moody Underscore the same on TikTok,

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<v Speaker 1>so absolutely do head over there where I'm creating new,

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<v Speaker 1>fresh videos on a daily basis. But we need a break.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean I know that I need a break. So

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<v Speaker 1>I am very excited to bring you a fantastic interview

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<v Speaker 1>that I did with author Nikola Yun, who wrote the

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<v Speaker 1>book Our Kind of People. It is a novel. It

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<v Speaker 1>is a thriller. As is written on the inside of

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<v Speaker 1>the book, it is like get Out the movie get

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<v Speaker 1>Out meets Stepford Wives. It is set in a suburb

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<v Speaker 1>of Los Angeles. A black utopian neighborhood is created and

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<v Speaker 1>the lead character, Jasmine, and her husband and their young son,

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<v Speaker 1>move into this black utopia and things kind of go

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<v Speaker 1>left from the beginning. The book is fantastic. The conversation

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<v Speaker 1>on race, on racism, on what it means to create safety,

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<v Speaker 1>and the lengths that people will go to in order

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<v Speaker 1>to create safety. It was such a fantastic conversation the book.

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<v Speaker 1>I turned every single page faster than the next. For

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<v Speaker 1>the last eighty pages of the book, I could not

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<v Speaker 1>put it down until it was finished. I highly highly

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<v Speaker 1>recommend it. So check out my interview with Nikola Yune. Folks.

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<v Speaker 1>I am so excited to welcome to WOKF Daily New

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<v Speaker 1>York Times bestselling author Nikola Yun, whose new book, latest book,

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<v Speaker 1>One of Our Kind, is your first adult novel. And

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<v Speaker 1>when you open up, it says get Out meets the

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<v Speaker 1>Stepford Wives. Yeah, And I'm like, oh, you sold me

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<v Speaker 1>because two iconic movies about what the character thought something

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<v Speaker 1>was and what it actually turns into. And I think

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<v Speaker 1>that for me, why those two movies And I want

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<v Speaker 1>to ask you why those two movies are kind of

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<v Speaker 1>how you ground the description of the book. Why those

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<v Speaker 1>two stand out for you. Does it have something to

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<v Speaker 1>do with the fact that we often enter into situations

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<v Speaker 1>experiences in our lives where we think they're going to

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<v Speaker 1>be one thing and then you know, outside of it

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<v Speaker 1>being a thriller or a horror, it turns out to

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<v Speaker 1>be something else. And is that why you think that

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<v Speaker 1>people are so inclined to this kind of art, this

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<v Speaker 1>kind of genre.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks for having me on, And that's a great question,

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<v Speaker 2>actually get out. I think it's one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>sort of social horrors, or certainly one of the first

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<v Speaker 2>ones that got the public mindset thinking about a way

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<v Speaker 2>you can do horror and something that's like, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>sort of consumer friendly and also talk about deep social issues, right.

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<v Speaker 2>And so for me that was a really big inspiration

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<v Speaker 2>because I really did want to talk about race and

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<v Speaker 2>racism in America, but I also wanted people to want

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<v Speaker 2>to read the book, right, Like I really wanted people

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<v Speaker 2>to stay up all night because they needed to know

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<v Speaker 2>what was going to happen and turn those pages, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and then maybe fling the book across the room at

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<v Speaker 2>the end. And then after that, I really wanted people

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<v Speaker 2>to have, you know, sort of interrogate themselves and call

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<v Speaker 2>their friends and just sort of talk about the ending

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<v Speaker 2>and why the book ends the way it does. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know why happens in the book in a deep

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<v Speaker 2>and meaningful way, right, and also a graceful way where

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<v Speaker 2>we actually listen to each other and pay attention to

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<v Speaker 2>what the other person is saying and believe people when

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<v Speaker 2>they say this hurts or this doesn't hurt, or what

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<v Speaker 2>have you. So for me, get Out was a really

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<v Speaker 2>big inspiration because it allowed people to do that. And

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<v Speaker 2>then the Stepford Wise, I actually hadn't read that book

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<v Speaker 2>until I started writing this one, or I read it

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<v Speaker 2>a few years ago, and I was listening to this

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<v Speaker 2>podcast called You're Wrong About and was talking about the

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<v Speaker 2>Steppard Wise and how most people misremember that book because

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<v Speaker 2>people think of Stepford Wise as being like a pejorative

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<v Speaker 2>that we beat women over the head with, right, like

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<v Speaker 2>she's such a Stepford wife, and we sort of make

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<v Speaker 2>fun but actually The book is really really feminist because

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<v Speaker 2>it's about the men who would do this thing to

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<v Speaker 2>their wives, right, who would make them into Stepford wives,

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<v Speaker 2>which I hadn't really known. I sort of had an

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<v Speaker 2>idea of it, but then I read the book and

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh, this is fiercely feminist. And so

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<v Speaker 2>that happened and I sort of put it into my brain.

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<v Speaker 2>And then a few years later, after George Floyd's murder,

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<v Speaker 2>like a lot of things merge in my mind, and

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<v Speaker 2>Stepford Wise was one of them. Because it's also a thriller,

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<v Speaker 2>also talks about important social things and importantly talks about

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<v Speaker 2>the ways in which you don't know the world. If

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<v Speaker 2>a world is putting you in danger, there's a way

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<v Speaker 2>in which that if you're walking into a world that

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<v Speaker 2>is often problematic, you never know what situation you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to walk into and what that does to a person.

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<v Speaker 2>So the main character in One of Our Kind, her

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<v Speaker 2>name is Jasmine. She's my most complicated character. I love Jasmine,

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<v Speaker 2>but she's also judgmental, and she's kind of a pain

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<v Speaker 2>in the butt right like she does. She sees terror

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<v Speaker 2>and fear and trouble everywhere, but she has a reason

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<v Speaker 2>to see terror and trouble and fear everywhere, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>mostly about the world that would make a person like

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<v Speaker 2>Jasmine behave the way she does.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that there are a couple of things there

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<v Speaker 1>that I want to dig into, and I think that

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<v Speaker 1>in reality, I feel like black people, particularly Black women,

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<v Speaker 1>are always gasolt into believing that the issues that we

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<v Speaker 1>bring to the forefront don't actually exist. That whether it

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<v Speaker 1>is in your workplace, in dealing with microaggressions, whether it

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<v Speaker 1>is in relationships and seeing all of these red flags

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<v Speaker 1>but being told like, no, you're just angry, or no,

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<v Speaker 1>it's your trauma, not mine. I think that there is

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<v Speaker 1>this idea that any time that black women in particular

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<v Speaker 1>bring up an issue to the forefront, whether it's Michelle

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<v Speaker 1>Obama saying nearly two decades ago that she was proud

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<v Speaker 1>of her country for the first time, right, and being

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<v Speaker 1>dragged for articulating something that was very true. This country

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<v Speaker 1>is inherently racist, and look at you, your embrace of

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<v Speaker 1>my black husband and family, and I'm proud for the

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<v Speaker 1>first time, right, I'm not shameful, But being gasoled into

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<v Speaker 1>believing that that made her unpatriotic. So how is your

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<v Speaker 1>understanding of the perpetual gaslighting that happens in this country,

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<v Speaker 1>but particularly for black women. How does that feed into

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<v Speaker 1>what could be seen as hysterical or anxiety driven by

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<v Speaker 1>your character. But it's like, no, these things are really happening,

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<v Speaker 1>Like I'm not making it up.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think that you're tapped into exactly the issue, right.

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<v Speaker 2>So I mean in a world where you can turn

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<v Speaker 2>on the news one day and see the murder of

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<v Speaker 2>a person and see his body left on the street

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<v Speaker 2>for just hours, it makes you vigilant, right, It makes

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<v Speaker 2>you hyper vigilant in a way that's not healthy actually

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<v Speaker 2>for anyone. But how could you not be, How could

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<v Speaker 2>you not be at any moment a terrifying and a

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<v Speaker 2>horrific thing can happen, Right. I think for Jasmine, she's

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<v Speaker 2>so hyper vigil and she has a young son, she

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<v Speaker 2>has a black husband, she has a baby on the way,

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<v Speaker 2>and she is a public defender. She's steeped in the news,

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<v Speaker 2>she's steeped in all the trauma, just all the time, right,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think there's a way in which that can

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<v Speaker 2>make you just sort of go, oh my god, everything's

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<v Speaker 2>a threat. And I think that's where Jasmine is right.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, and sometimes things are a threat and sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>they're not, but it's hard to tell the difference when

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<v Speaker 2>there's so many horrors. And I think, you know, I

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<v Speaker 2>want to really talk about a world. I mean not

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<v Speaker 2>just for black women, I mean especially for black people

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<v Speaker 2>in this country, but in general. The world is on

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<v Speaker 2>fire a lot. Right. You can wake up and turn

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<v Speaker 2>on the news and you're like, there's climate change, and

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<v Speaker 2>there are several wars and genocides, and if you're a

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<v Speaker 2>reasonably good person, you want to fix it and you

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<v Speaker 2>don't want to just sort of retreat into your bubble.

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<v Speaker 2>But also you cannot possibly fix everything. And I mean

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<v Speaker 2>it can make you crazy, right, And you can make

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<v Speaker 2>you so see threats when there are no It can

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<v Speaker 2>make you mistake when there is a threat that you

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<v Speaker 2>should be looking at. I think you know, it turns

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<v Speaker 2>you upside down. And I think that's where Jasmine is.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to talk a bit too about liberty, about

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<v Speaker 1>the place that you created in the book, this idea

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<v Speaker 1>of a black utopia. It's something that I think about often.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you have visited Martha's Vineyard and

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<v Speaker 1>Oak Bluffs and this historical black town and place where

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<v Speaker 1>the affluent have gone to vacation throughout history and time,

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<v Speaker 1>and in a lot of places it had been one

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<v Speaker 1>of the only places where you get to see black

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<v Speaker 1>people on vacation. I know that when I travel there

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<v Speaker 1>are sometimes when I may see one or two other families,

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<v Speaker 1>but largely we're not seeing ourselves. Talk to us about

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<v Speaker 1>the creation of this place of liberty, of this black utopia,

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<v Speaker 1>and the why around it for.

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<v Speaker 2>You, So you know, Jasmine moves along with her husband

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<v Speaker 2>and her young son to liberty. Right, So it is

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<v Speaker 2>a black utopia. It's in the suburbs of Los Angeles.

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<v Speaker 2>It's very, very wealthy, and she's hesitant to move because

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<v Speaker 2>she is, as I say, a public defender, and she

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<v Speaker 2>has a sense of community and wanting to help the

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<v Speaker 2>less fortunate and moving to a place where she gets

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<v Speaker 2>safety feels wrong to her because there's so many people

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<v Speaker 2>who don't have safety. But she does move for safety. Right.

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<v Speaker 2>She wants it to be that when her husband and

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<v Speaker 2>young son walk down the street and they get stopped

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<v Speaker 2>by a cop, that cop is going to be black

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<v Speaker 2>and presumably on their side and is not going to

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<v Speaker 2>be horrible. Right. She wants to revel in black excellence.

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<v Speaker 2>She wants mostly to feel safe, I meaning being a

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<v Speaker 2>black woman myself and a mother too. I know that

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<v Speaker 2>wanting to have psychic safety and also physical safety for

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<v Speaker 2>my kid, right, so like I want my child to

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<v Speaker 2>be he is innocent for as long as possible, but

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<v Speaker 2>I also wanted to be saved physically right from the

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<v Speaker 2>world that is dangerous. And so Jasmine moves to liberty

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<v Speaker 2>because everyone's black. What could possibly go wrong? Right when

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<v Speaker 2>you are in a community where presumably everyone wants and

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<v Speaker 2>cares about the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it's like I feel it because you brought

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<v Speaker 1>up George Floyd and can think about Mike Brown, We

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<v Speaker 1>can think about Trayvon Martin being killed inside of a

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<v Speaker 1>gated community. You can think about all of these different aspects,

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<v Speaker 1>and whenever those horrific events happen, my first thought is like,

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<v Speaker 1>I'd like to leave here. I'd like to leave here,

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<v Speaker 1>and I'd like to go someplace where I don't have

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<v Speaker 1>to worry. And there is this seeming feeling of guilt

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<v Speaker 1>that Jasmine has about Like you said here, I am

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<v Speaker 1>believing that like I should be here to make a difference,

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<v Speaker 1>not just book spa appointments, not just pretend that things

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<v Speaker 1>aren't happening. And I wonder when you see in our

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<v Speaker 1>society people who don't want to be as tapped in

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<v Speaker 1>as a way too maybe for themselves have that psychic

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<v Speaker 1>safety that if I am so tapped in on a

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<v Speaker 1>regular basis, I may not get out of bed, because

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<v Speaker 1>there are multiple genocides that are happening, because there are

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<v Speaker 1>kids that are going hungry, that are right down the street,

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<v Speaker 1>because there is a possibility that if my loved one

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<v Speaker 1>leaves and they get stopped by the police, they're not

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<v Speaker 1>going to return. Like, is there this place where we

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<v Speaker 1>can both understand and not be judgmental about people who

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<v Speaker 1>want to tap out because everything can be so overwhelming.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And honestly, that's part of what the book is about.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's important for me to say that the

0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.560
<v Speaker 2>book isn't prescriptive, But the question that you just ask

0:13:53.160 --> 0:13:55.200
<v Speaker 2>is the conversation I think that we all need to

0:13:55.200 --> 0:13:59.040
<v Speaker 2>be having right Because so Jasmine moves celebrity, and where

0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:02.080
<v Speaker 2>Jasmine is hyper vigilant, some of the people in Liberty

0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:05.480
<v Speaker 2>are not. Some of the people in Liberty bookspot appointments

0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.880
<v Speaker 2>all day and turn away from the world entirely. It's

0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.400
<v Speaker 2>not like they're taking a break or looking out for

0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:16.080
<v Speaker 2>their own mammas. They're just completely gone and they find

0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:18.920
<v Speaker 2>their own kind of safety in that, right, they find

0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.360
<v Speaker 2>their own kind of you know, turning away from the world,

0:14:21.400 --> 0:14:23.680
<v Speaker 2>a world that's too hard to look at, and is

0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:27.440
<v Speaker 2>there some happy medium? Is that a thing that's possible

0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:30.680
<v Speaker 2>in a world that's so violent and so dangerous for

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.080
<v Speaker 2>black people, you know at certain times? So like, I

0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:37.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know, but I know that I want to ask

0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.560
<v Speaker 2>the question as a part of the book, and I

0:14:39.600 --> 0:14:42.360
<v Speaker 2>really want people to start to talk about it. Right.

0:14:42.840 --> 0:14:45.320
<v Speaker 2>There are villains in this book, But the villains in

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:48.800
<v Speaker 2>the book are also victims, right, They're also victims of

0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:52.880
<v Speaker 2>like an overarching system that's racist, like a system that

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.600
<v Speaker 2>puts people into boxes and forces them to make absurd

0:14:56.680 --> 0:14:59.280
<v Speaker 2>choices a lot of the times. Right. You Know, there

0:14:59.320 --> 0:15:01.720
<v Speaker 2>is a character the book where I think West She's

0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 2>got to figure it out, and she has a good

0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:08.480
<v Speaker 2>way of looking at the world. She loves her blackness,

0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.440
<v Speaker 2>she loves the black culture. She sees the world for

0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:13.560
<v Speaker 2>what it is, and she chooses to hold on to

0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:18.200
<v Speaker 2>her joy when she can. But I think it's hard, right,

0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:20.800
<v Speaker 2>and I think it's worth talking about what kind of

0:15:20.800 --> 0:15:22.520
<v Speaker 2>world we've made.

0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.520
<v Speaker 1>I want to ask you too again, We're living in

0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:30.400
<v Speaker 1>a really wild time, and we're living at a time where,

0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:34.160
<v Speaker 1>in this moment, as you and I are speaking, we're

0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.840
<v Speaker 1>sixty some odd days away from the most consequential election

0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:45.000
<v Speaker 1>of our lifetime. Yep, where for the first time ever

0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.840
<v Speaker 1>in America's history, a black and Indian woman is at

0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 1>the top of the Democratic ticket. There are two very

0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:58.960
<v Speaker 1>clear pictures that are being painted about this country. One

0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:06.160
<v Speaker 1>that is steep in white Christian nationalism and exclusivity, and

0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:11.600
<v Speaker 1>one that is imperfect, Yes, incredibly imperfect, but steeped in

0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:16.480
<v Speaker 1>the desire to be more inclusive with each generation than

0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:21.240
<v Speaker 1>we have. Yeah, and the decision is so weighty for me,

0:16:21.600 --> 0:16:25.840
<v Speaker 1>it seems so friggin' obvious, right, like duh, you know,

0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:29.280
<v Speaker 1>like pick the one that isn't run by a criminal,

0:16:29.360 --> 0:16:31.400
<v Speaker 1>like just you know, duh.

0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.360
<v Speaker 2>It's a really obvious decision.

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:37.240
<v Speaker 1>Yes, it's just so obvious. And yet and yet here

0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:41.400
<v Speaker 1>we are. When you kind of look at the world,

0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:45.160
<v Speaker 1>you have a daughter, when you look at the world

0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:49.360
<v Speaker 1>and you think, like, what have we become? Do you

0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:53.120
<v Speaker 1>see the possibility. Do you see it as a horror?

0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:56.440
<v Speaker 1>Do you see you know, like, is there still like

0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.280
<v Speaker 1>I don't know. I find this mix of feeling where

0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:03.400
<v Speaker 1>I both feel incredibly joyful and excited about the possibility

0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:08.720
<v Speaker 1>in this choice and equally friggin terrified about the possibility

0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:10.000
<v Speaker 1>of the wrong choice.

0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.240
<v Speaker 2>I mean, isn't that why the world is crazy? I mean,

0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.399
<v Speaker 2>it's interesting to be a human being, the way you

0:17:15.440 --> 0:17:20.200
<v Speaker 2>can hold to simultaneously opposite emotions at the same time, right,

0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.639
<v Speaker 2>And you just have to live with it, right, Like,

0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.639
<v Speaker 2>my daughter is the best thing on earth, and I

0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.359
<v Speaker 2>put her on the school bus this morning and she's gone.

0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.119
<v Speaker 2>My heart is on the bus all day. And I

0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:32.879
<v Speaker 2>just have to trust that the world is going to

0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:36.040
<v Speaker 2>treat her well and that she will be smart enough

0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:38.720
<v Speaker 2>to like, you know, stick her elbows at when she

0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:41.159
<v Speaker 2>needs to and be kind and all of those things.

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.560
<v Speaker 2>And you know, I have a wonderful husband who I

0:17:44.600 --> 0:17:47.439
<v Speaker 2>adore and so and you know who really is the

0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 2>love of my life, and so I am lucky and joyful.

0:17:50.840 --> 0:17:53.879
<v Speaker 2>And also you know, we turn on the news, we

0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:56.840
<v Speaker 2>could turn on the news after this podcast and something

0:17:57.040 --> 0:18:00.480
<v Speaker 2>new and horrific can have happened, and part of the

0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:03.240
<v Speaker 2>tension in the like modern society is learning to try

0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.679
<v Speaker 2>to live with both of those things and still go

0:18:06.800 --> 0:18:09.480
<v Speaker 2>forward and still do good work and still care and

0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 2>not turn away. But also you can't because if you

0:18:13.000 --> 0:18:15.000
<v Speaker 2>revel in it, you only get the one life, right,

0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:19.160
<v Speaker 2>and you cannot live if you've steeped in it all

0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:21.960
<v Speaker 2>the time, right, Like, there's no way there's no joy

0:18:22.000 --> 0:18:25.159
<v Speaker 2>for you to have. And I refuse to see my

0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:29.560
<v Speaker 2>joy to like someone else's view of me or the

0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.640
<v Speaker 2>entire world. And also part of joy is actually trying

0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:35.560
<v Speaker 2>to make the world a little bit better, you know.

0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.879
<v Speaker 2>I mean, you're talking about these two candidates. One is

0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:42.520
<v Speaker 2>trash honestly, and the other candidate is flawed, right, But

0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:45.480
<v Speaker 2>at least there's one candidate that we can push towards

0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.240
<v Speaker 2>more progressive policies and more and doing the right thing

0:18:49.400 --> 0:18:52.200
<v Speaker 2>right and so but that it means that we all

0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:55.600
<v Speaker 2>have to be engaged and push and try. It means

0:18:55.600 --> 0:18:58.400
<v Speaker 2>we have to believe in a flawed world, right, even

0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.280
<v Speaker 2>the times when it's really really bad. You know, maybe

0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:02.760
<v Speaker 2>stay in bed that day and then get up the

0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:03.800
<v Speaker 2>next day and try again.

0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't know if you watched the Democratic National Convention,

0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:13.760
<v Speaker 1>but when Michelle Obama offered I mean so much, but

0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.919
<v Speaker 1>one of the lines that stuck with me the most

0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:21.800
<v Speaker 1>was this Goldilock sensibility, this idea that everything has to

0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.440
<v Speaker 1>be just right in order for us to get things done.

0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:27.760
<v Speaker 1>And I, you know, and I think about that. I

0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:30.600
<v Speaker 1>think about the ways in which fiction and fairy tales

0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.560
<v Speaker 1>have kind of in a lot of ways guided our

0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:37.239
<v Speaker 1>view of the world. And I want to ask you this, like,

0:19:37.440 --> 0:19:41.360
<v Speaker 1>what do you see as the role of fiction at

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.359
<v Speaker 1>a time when the world is so dark?

0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that is a great question, you know. As the

0:19:47.720 --> 0:19:51.160
<v Speaker 2>fiction writer, I will say that when I first wrote

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:53.120
<v Speaker 2>the first draft of this book, I wrote it from

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.160
<v Speaker 2>a place of despair and anger. I was so and

0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:01.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm not in general angry or sparing person and fairly optimistic.

0:20:02.040 --> 0:20:06.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm always smiling or always joking, but you know, the

0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:08.240
<v Speaker 2>world had gotten to be a lot and so that

0:20:08.400 --> 0:20:10.800
<v Speaker 2>very first draft was there was no hope in it.

0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:13.000
<v Speaker 2>There was no like sort of air in it. But

0:20:13.560 --> 0:20:16.840
<v Speaker 2>the role of a fiction writer is to tell the

0:20:16.960 --> 0:20:20.560
<v Speaker 2>truth right, the truth as you see it, and that's it.

0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:24.560
<v Speaker 2>That's really just the job. And then hopefully people will

0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.240
<v Speaker 2>come to it with grace and empathy and be in

0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:31.160
<v Speaker 2>dialogue with the work, and hopefully it'll mean something to them.

0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.200
<v Speaker 2>It maybe will reveal a truth about themselves, or maybe

0:20:35.320 --> 0:20:37.439
<v Speaker 2>it'll give them a way to reveal a truth to

0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:41.439
<v Speaker 2>someone else. You know. For this book, the thing I

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:44.080
<v Speaker 2>really wanted was for people that treat each other with grace,

0:20:44.480 --> 0:20:48.760
<v Speaker 2>because I think our national discourse lacks that. It lacks empathy,

0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.600
<v Speaker 2>it lacks grace, It lacks us believing each other when

0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:54.240
<v Speaker 2>we say things right. And the thing is, I have

0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:56.960
<v Speaker 2>made mistakes with friends, artst in my culture before and

0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.159
<v Speaker 2>outside of my religion. Right. I have like said the

0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.480
<v Speaker 2>wrong thing, done the wrong thing. And the thing that's

0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:04.600
<v Speaker 2>always saved me is that they know that I love

0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.640
<v Speaker 2>them and I just got it wrong, and we can

0:21:07.640 --> 0:21:09.919
<v Speaker 2>talk about it and they're like, Nikki, that's dumb, and

0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:12.239
<v Speaker 2>they'll say it, and then I'll be like, oh, you're right,

0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm sorry, and then we'll move on and similar the

0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:18.080
<v Speaker 2>same things have happened to me, right, and I've treated

0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.080
<v Speaker 2>them with grace and go, that is the dumbest thing

0:21:20.440 --> 0:21:23.360
<v Speaker 2>I've ever heard. Here is the truth, and then we'll

0:21:23.400 --> 0:21:26.960
<v Speaker 2>move on. But I don't think that we do that anymore, right, Like,

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't think. I think if someone says this thing

0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:31.000
<v Speaker 2>happened to me and this hurt and you know, this

0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.159
<v Speaker 2>racist thing happened, to believe them and really listen and

0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.720
<v Speaker 2>hear what that means and try to empathize, and you know,

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.679
<v Speaker 2>no more whispering about things like that. We have to

0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 2>really just talk. And most people are good, most people, right,

0:21:44.760 --> 0:21:47.200
<v Speaker 2>they're obviously so terrible people in the world, but most

0:21:47.240 --> 0:21:49.119
<v Speaker 2>people will do the right thing if they know what

0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:51.240
<v Speaker 2>the right thing is. And we just have to talk

0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to each other. It's like, the only way things change

0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:57.280
<v Speaker 2>is that way, Like you and me in conversation, really

0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:59.960
<v Speaker 2>listening to each other is the way things change. Right.

0:22:00.200 --> 0:22:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Otherwise it's just we're just in our camps, not going anywhere.

0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:08.919
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I think that fiction writing provides us with a

0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:11.880
<v Speaker 1>tool to be able to navigate real life and give

0:22:11.960 --> 0:22:15.760
<v Speaker 1>us kind of a touchstone to imagine something different than

0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:19.040
<v Speaker 1>where we are. That reality can be really dark, can

0:22:19.160 --> 0:22:21.280
<v Speaker 1>suck the air out of the room and make us

0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:24.679
<v Speaker 1>believe that what is will always be, And fiction allows

0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:27.320
<v Speaker 1>us the space to dream, even if that dream is

0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:29.480
<v Speaker 1>a is a nightmare or a thriller.

0:22:29.640 --> 0:22:30.399
<v Speaker 2>It gets us.

0:22:30.280 --> 0:22:32.760
<v Speaker 1>Out of out right, yeah, it gets us out of

0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.960
<v Speaker 1>our skin and out of our mind and someplace else.

0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:38.560
<v Speaker 1>And I think that that is often what is needed

0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.640
<v Speaker 1>for change and what is at the core of any revolution.

0:22:43.320 --> 0:22:46.520
<v Speaker 1>So I appreciate you so much for your work, for

0:22:46.680 --> 0:22:50.480
<v Speaker 1>this book, which folks, is out now, one of our kind,

0:22:51.080 --> 0:22:54.080
<v Speaker 1>and the link will be in this show notes. Nikola,

0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.600
<v Speaker 1>thank you so much for this conversation and for your work.

0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.800
<v Speaker 1>That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.159
<v Speaker 1>a f as always Power to the people and to

0:23:07.440 --> 0:23:11.640
<v Speaker 1>all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.