1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:18,959 Speaker 1: me your girl, Daniel Moody, recording from the home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: let's take a break from oh I don't know, the 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: serious amount of crazy that has been circulating around since 5 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: the quote unquote assassination attempt of Donald Trump for a 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: second time in two months, the influx of violence into Springfield, 7 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: Ohio because of Donald Trump and JD Vance's stochastic terrorism, 8 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: the just overwhelming amount of fuckery that is Trump and 9 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 1: Laura Lumer and whatever the hell is happening over there. 10 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: And friends, for those of you who have yet to 11 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: venture over to my YouTube channel, I am have done 12 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,760 Speaker 1: a couple of videos on that, so do head over. 13 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: You can go into the YouTube search button and put 14 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: in Danielle Moody channel and woila, there I will be 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: Also it is Danielle Moody Underscore the same on TikTok, 16 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: so absolutely do head over there where I'm creating new, 17 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 1: fresh videos on a daily basis. But we need a break. 18 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: I mean I know that I need a break. So 19 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: I am very excited to bring you a fantastic interview 20 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,320 Speaker 1: that I did with author Nikola Yun, who wrote the 21 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: book Our Kind of People. It is a novel. It 22 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: is a thriller. As is written on the inside of 23 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: the book, it is like get Out the movie get 24 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: Out meets Stepford Wives. It is set in a suburb 25 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: of Los Angeles. A black utopian neighborhood is created and 26 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 1: the lead character, Jasmine, and her husband and their young son, 27 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: move into this black utopia and things kind of go 28 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: left from the beginning. The book is fantastic. The conversation 29 00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 1: on race, on racism, on what it means to create safety, 30 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:27,640 Speaker 1: and the lengths that people will go to in order 31 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: to create safety. It was such a fantastic conversation the book. 32 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: I turned every single page faster than the next. For 33 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: the last eighty pages of the book, I could not 34 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: put it down until it was finished. I highly highly 35 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 1: recommend it. So check out my interview with Nikola Yune. Folks. 36 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: I am so excited to welcome to WOKF Daily New 37 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 1: York Times bestselling author Nikola Yun, whose new book, latest book, 38 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: One of Our Kind, is your first adult novel. And 39 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: when you open up, it says get Out meets the 40 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 1: Stepford Wives. Yeah, And I'm like, oh, you sold me 41 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 1: because two iconic movies about what the character thought something 42 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 1: was and what it actually turns into. And I think 43 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: that for me, why those two movies And I want 44 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: to ask you why those two movies are kind of 45 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: how you ground the description of the book. Why those 46 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: two stand out for you. Does it have something to 47 00:03:47,560 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 1: do with the fact that we often enter into situations 48 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: experiences in our lives where we think they're going to 49 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: be one thing and then you know, outside of it 50 00:03:57,880 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: being a thriller or a horror, it turns out to 51 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: be something else. And is that why you think that 52 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: people are so inclined to this kind of art, this 53 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: kind of genre. 54 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me on, And that's a great question, 55 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 2: actually get out. I think it's one of the first 56 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: sort of social horrors, or certainly one of the first 57 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 2: ones that got the public mindset thinking about a way 58 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: you can do horror and something that's like, you know, 59 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 2: sort of consumer friendly and also talk about deep social issues, right. 60 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 2: And so for me that was a really big inspiration 61 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 2: because I really did want to talk about race and 62 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 2: racism in America, but I also wanted people to want 63 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:40,719 Speaker 2: to read the book, right, Like I really wanted people 64 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 2: to stay up all night because they needed to know 65 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 2: what was going to happen and turn those pages, you know, 66 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 2: and then maybe fling the book across the room at 67 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: the end. And then after that, I really wanted people 68 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: to have, you know, sort of interrogate themselves and call 69 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 2: their friends and just sort of talk about the ending 70 00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,240 Speaker 2: and why the book ends the way it does. I 71 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 2: don't know why happens in the book in a deep 72 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 2: and meaningful way, right, and also a graceful way where 73 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 2: we actually listen to each other and pay attention to 74 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: what the other person is saying and believe people when 75 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: they say this hurts or this doesn't hurt, or what 76 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 2: have you. So for me, get Out was a really 77 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: big inspiration because it allowed people to do that. And 78 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 2: then the Stepford Wise, I actually hadn't read that book 79 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 2: until I started writing this one, or I read it 80 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: a few years ago, and I was listening to this 81 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: podcast called You're Wrong About and was talking about the 82 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 2: Steppard Wise and how most people misremember that book because 83 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 2: people think of Stepford Wise as being like a pejorative 84 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: that we beat women over the head with, right, like 85 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: she's such a Stepford wife, and we sort of make 86 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 2: fun but actually The book is really really feminist because 87 00:05:49,440 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 2: it's about the men who would do this thing to 88 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: their wives, right, who would make them into Stepford wives, 89 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: which I hadn't really known. I sort of had an 90 00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: idea of it, but then I read the book and 91 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,359 Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is fiercely feminist. And so 92 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:03,480 Speaker 2: that happened and I sort of put it into my brain. 93 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 2: And then a few years later, after George Floyd's murder, 94 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 2: like a lot of things merge in my mind, and 95 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,679 Speaker 2: Stepford Wise was one of them. Because it's also a thriller, 96 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 2: also talks about important social things and importantly talks about 97 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 2: the ways in which you don't know the world. If 98 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:23,159 Speaker 2: a world is putting you in danger, there's a way 99 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: in which that if you're walking into a world that 100 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 2: is often problematic, you never know what situation you're going 101 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 2: to walk into and what that does to a person. 102 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 2: So the main character in One of Our Kind, her 103 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:40,360 Speaker 2: name is Jasmine. She's my most complicated character. I love Jasmine, 104 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 2: but she's also judgmental, and she's kind of a pain 105 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: in the butt right like she does. She sees terror 106 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: and fear and trouble everywhere, but she has a reason 107 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 2: to see terror and trouble and fear everywhere, and it's 108 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 2: mostly about the world that would make a person like 109 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: Jasmine behave the way she does. 110 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: I think that there are a couple of things there 111 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 1: that I want to dig into, and I think that 112 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: in reality, I feel like black people, particularly Black women, 113 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: are always gasolt into believing that the issues that we 114 00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: bring to the forefront don't actually exist. That whether it 115 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,680 Speaker 1: is in your workplace, in dealing with microaggressions, whether it 116 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: is in relationships and seeing all of these red flags 117 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: but being told like, no, you're just angry, or no, 118 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,040 Speaker 1: it's your trauma, not mine. I think that there is 119 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: this idea that any time that black women in particular 120 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 1: bring up an issue to the forefront, whether it's Michelle 121 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: Obama saying nearly two decades ago that she was proud 122 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: of her country for the first time, right, and being 123 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: dragged for articulating something that was very true. This country 124 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: is inherently racist, and look at you, your embrace of 125 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: my black husband and family, and I'm proud for the 126 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: first time, right, I'm not shameful, But being gasoled into 127 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: believing that that made her unpatriotic. So how is your 128 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: understanding of the perpetual gaslighting that happens in this country, 129 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: but particularly for black women. How does that feed into 130 00:08:20,280 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: what could be seen as hysterical or anxiety driven by 131 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: your character. But it's like, no, these things are really happening, 132 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: Like I'm not making it up. 133 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I think that you're tapped into exactly the issue, right. 134 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 2: So I mean in a world where you can turn 135 00:08:39,679 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 2: on the news one day and see the murder of 136 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: a person and see his body left on the street 137 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,000 Speaker 2: for just hours, it makes you vigilant, right, It makes 138 00:08:49,040 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 2: you hyper vigilant in a way that's not healthy actually 139 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 2: for anyone. But how could you not be, How could 140 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 2: you not be at any moment a terrifying and a 141 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 2: horrific thing can happen, Right. I think for Jasmine, she's 142 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 2: so hyper vigil and she has a young son, she 143 00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 2: has a black husband, she has a baby on the way, 144 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: and she is a public defender. She's steeped in the news, 145 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 2: she's steeped in all the trauma, just all the time, right, 146 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,920 Speaker 2: And I think there's a way in which that can 147 00:09:14,960 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: make you just sort of go, oh my god, everything's 148 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 2: a threat. And I think that's where Jasmine is right. 149 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 2: I mean, and sometimes things are a threat and sometimes 150 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: they're not, but it's hard to tell the difference when 151 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: there's so many horrors. And I think, you know, I 152 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 2: want to really talk about a world. I mean not 153 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:34,920 Speaker 2: just for black women, I mean especially for black people 154 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: in this country, but in general. The world is on 155 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 2: fire a lot. Right. You can wake up and turn 156 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: on the news and you're like, there's climate change, and 157 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:46,280 Speaker 2: there are several wars and genocides, and if you're a 158 00:09:46,320 --> 00:09:49,599 Speaker 2: reasonably good person, you want to fix it and you 159 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: don't want to just sort of retreat into your bubble. 160 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 2: But also you cannot possibly fix everything. And I mean 161 00:09:57,280 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 2: it can make you crazy, right, And you can make 162 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,199 Speaker 2: you so see threats when there are no It can 163 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: make you mistake when there is a threat that you 164 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: should be looking at. I think you know, it turns 165 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 2: you upside down. And I think that's where Jasmine is. 166 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 1: I want to talk a bit too about liberty, about 167 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: the place that you created in the book, this idea 168 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: of a black utopia. It's something that I think about often. 169 00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if you have visited Martha's Vineyard and 170 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: Oak Bluffs and this historical black town and place where 171 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: the affluent have gone to vacation throughout history and time, 172 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,719 Speaker 1: and in a lot of places it had been one 173 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: of the only places where you get to see black 174 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: people on vacation. I know that when I travel there 175 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:52,719 Speaker 1: are sometimes when I may see one or two other families, 176 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 1: but largely we're not seeing ourselves. Talk to us about 177 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: the creation of this place of liberty, of this black utopia, 178 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:03,240 Speaker 1: and the why around it for. 179 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 2: You, So you know, Jasmine moves along with her husband 180 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: and her young son to liberty. Right, So it is 181 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,079 Speaker 2: a black utopia. It's in the suburbs of Los Angeles. 182 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 2: It's very, very wealthy, and she's hesitant to move because 183 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 2: she is, as I say, a public defender, and she 184 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 2: has a sense of community and wanting to help the 185 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 2: less fortunate and moving to a place where she gets 186 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: safety feels wrong to her because there's so many people 187 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: who don't have safety. But she does move for safety. Right. 188 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:35,080 Speaker 2: She wants it to be that when her husband and 189 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,160 Speaker 2: young son walk down the street and they get stopped 190 00:11:37,160 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: by a cop, that cop is going to be black 191 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 2: and presumably on their side and is not going to 192 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: be horrible. Right. She wants to revel in black excellence. 193 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 2: She wants mostly to feel safe, I meaning being a 194 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: black woman myself and a mother too. I know that 195 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: wanting to have psychic safety and also physical safety for 196 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 2: my kid, right, so like I want my child to 197 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: be he is innocent for as long as possible, but 198 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 2: I also wanted to be saved physically right from the 199 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 2: world that is dangerous. And so Jasmine moves to liberty 200 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 2: because everyone's black. What could possibly go wrong? Right when 201 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: you are in a community where presumably everyone wants and 202 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: cares about the same thing. 203 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's like I feel it because you brought 204 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,760 Speaker 1: up George Floyd and can think about Mike Brown, We 205 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: can think about Trayvon Martin being killed inside of a 206 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 1: gated community. You can think about all of these different aspects, 207 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: and whenever those horrific events happen, my first thought is like, 208 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: I'd like to leave here. I'd like to leave here, 209 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: and I'd like to go someplace where I don't have 210 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,560 Speaker 1: to worry. And there is this seeming feeling of guilt 211 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: that Jasmine has about Like you said here, I am 212 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: believing that like I should be here to make a difference, 213 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: not just book spa appointments, not just pretend that things 214 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: aren't happening. And I wonder when you see in our 215 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: society people who don't want to be as tapped in 216 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 1: as a way too maybe for themselves have that psychic 217 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: safety that if I am so tapped in on a 218 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: regular basis, I may not get out of bed, because 219 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 1: there are multiple genocides that are happening, because there are 220 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: kids that are going hungry, that are right down the street, 221 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: because there is a possibility that if my loved one 222 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,760 Speaker 1: leaves and they get stopped by the police, they're not 223 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: going to return. Like, is there this place where we 224 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 1: can both understand and not be judgmental about people who 225 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 1: want to tap out because everything can be so overwhelming. 226 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, And honestly, that's part of what the book is about. 227 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 2: I mean, it's important for me to say that the 228 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 2: book isn't prescriptive, But the question that you just ask 229 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 2: is the conversation I think that we all need to 230 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 2: be having right Because so Jasmine moves celebrity, and where 231 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: Jasmine is hyper vigilant, some of the people in Liberty 232 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 2: are not. Some of the people in Liberty bookspot appointments 233 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: all day and turn away from the world entirely. It's 234 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 2: not like they're taking a break or looking out for 235 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 2: their own mammas. They're just completely gone and they find 236 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: their own kind of safety in that, right, they find 237 00:14:18,920 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: their own kind of you know, turning away from the world, 238 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 2: a world that's too hard to look at, and is 239 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: there some happy medium? Is that a thing that's possible 240 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: in a world that's so violent and so dangerous for 241 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 2: black people, you know at certain times? So like, I 242 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: don't know, but I know that I want to ask 243 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: the question as a part of the book, and I 244 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 2: really want people to start to talk about it. Right. 245 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: There are villains in this book, But the villains in 246 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 2: the book are also victims, right, They're also victims of 247 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 2: like an overarching system that's racist, like a system that 248 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: puts people into boxes and forces them to make absurd 249 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 2: choices a lot of the times. Right. You Know, there 250 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 2: is a character the book where I think West She's 251 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: got to figure it out, and she has a good 252 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: way of looking at the world. She loves her blackness, 253 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 2: she loves the black culture. She sees the world for 254 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 2: what it is, and she chooses to hold on to 255 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,200 Speaker 2: her joy when she can. But I think it's hard, right, 256 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,800 Speaker 2: and I think it's worth talking about what kind of 257 00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: world we've made. 258 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: I want to ask you too again, We're living in 259 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: a really wild time, and we're living at a time where, 260 00:15:30,640 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: in this moment, as you and I are speaking, we're 261 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: sixty some odd days away from the most consequential election 262 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: of our lifetime. Yep, where for the first time ever 263 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: in America's history, a black and Indian woman is at 264 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: the top of the Democratic ticket. There are two very 265 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: clear pictures that are being painted about this country. One 266 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: that is steep in white Christian nationalism and exclusivity, and 267 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:11,600 Speaker 1: one that is imperfect, Yes, incredibly imperfect, but steeped in 268 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 1: the desire to be more inclusive with each generation than 269 00:16:16,520 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: we have. Yeah, and the decision is so weighty for me, 270 00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: it seems so friggin' obvious, right, like duh, you know, 271 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 1: like pick the one that isn't run by a criminal, 272 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: like just you know, duh. 273 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: It's a really obvious decision. 274 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: Yes, it's just so obvious. And yet and yet here 275 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:41,400 Speaker 1: we are. When you kind of look at the world, 276 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: you have a daughter, when you look at the world 277 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: and you think, like, what have we become? Do you 278 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: see the possibility. Do you see it as a horror? 279 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,440 Speaker 1: Do you see you know, like, is there still like 280 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. I find this mix of feeling where 281 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,400 Speaker 1: I both feel incredibly joyful and excited about the possibility 282 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: in this choice and equally friggin terrified about the possibility 283 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: of the wrong choice. 284 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: I mean, isn't that why the world is crazy? I mean, 285 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 2: it's interesting to be a human being, the way you 286 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 2: can hold to simultaneously opposite emotions at the same time, right, 287 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: And you just have to live with it, right, Like, 288 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 2: my daughter is the best thing on earth, and I 289 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:28,359 Speaker 2: put her on the school bus this morning and she's gone. 290 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 2: My heart is on the bus all day. And I 291 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 2: just have to trust that the world is going to 292 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: treat her well and that she will be smart enough 293 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: to like, you know, stick her elbows at when she 294 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 2: needs to and be kind and all of those things. 295 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 2: And you know, I have a wonderful husband who I 296 00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,439 Speaker 2: adore and so and you know who really is the 297 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 2: love of my life, and so I am lucky and joyful. 298 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:53,879 Speaker 2: And also you know, we turn on the news, we 299 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:56,840 Speaker 2: could turn on the news after this podcast and something 300 00:17:57,040 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 2: new and horrific can have happened, and part of the 301 00:18:00,560 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 2: tension in the like modern society is learning to try 302 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,679 Speaker 2: to live with both of those things and still go 303 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: forward and still do good work and still care and 304 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 2: not turn away. But also you can't because if you 305 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 2: revel in it, you only get the one life, right, 306 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 2: and you cannot live if you've steeped in it all 307 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,960 Speaker 2: the time, right, Like, there's no way there's no joy 308 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 2: for you to have. And I refuse to see my 309 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: joy to like someone else's view of me or the 310 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,640 Speaker 2: entire world. And also part of joy is actually trying 311 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: to make the world a little bit better, you know. 312 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: I mean, you're talking about these two candidates. One is 313 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,520 Speaker 2: trash honestly, and the other candidate is flawed, right, But 314 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,480 Speaker 2: at least there's one candidate that we can push towards 315 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,240 Speaker 2: more progressive policies and more and doing the right thing 316 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 2: right and so but that it means that we all 317 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: have to be engaged and push and try. It means 318 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,400 Speaker 2: we have to believe in a flawed world, right, even 319 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 2: the times when it's really really bad. You know, maybe 320 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 2: stay in bed that day and then get up the 321 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 2: next day and try again. 322 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: I don't know if you watched the Democratic National Convention, 323 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: but when Michelle Obama offered I mean so much, but 324 00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 1: one of the lines that stuck with me the most 325 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: was this Goldilock sensibility, this idea that everything has to 326 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,440 Speaker 1: be just right in order for us to get things done. 327 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 1: And I, you know, and I think about that. I 328 00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: think about the ways in which fiction and fairy tales 329 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 1: have kind of in a lot of ways guided our 330 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,239 Speaker 1: view of the world. And I want to ask you this, like, 331 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,360 Speaker 1: what do you see as the role of fiction at 332 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 1: a time when the world is so dark? 333 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, that is a great question, you know. As the 334 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:51,160 Speaker 2: fiction writer, I will say that when I first wrote 335 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,120 Speaker 2: the first draft of this book, I wrote it from 336 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 2: a place of despair and anger. I was so and 337 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: I'm not in general angry or sparing person and fairly optimistic. 338 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,119 Speaker 2: I'm always smiling or always joking, but you know, the 339 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 2: world had gotten to be a lot and so that 340 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: very first draft was there was no hope in it. 341 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: There was no like sort of air in it. But 342 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: the role of a fiction writer is to tell the 343 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: truth right, the truth as you see it, and that's it. 344 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 2: That's really just the job. And then hopefully people will 345 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 2: come to it with grace and empathy and be in 346 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 2: dialogue with the work, and hopefully it'll mean something to them. 347 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 2: It maybe will reveal a truth about themselves, or maybe 348 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,439 Speaker 2: it'll give them a way to reveal a truth to 349 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 2: someone else. You know. For this book, the thing I 350 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: really wanted was for people that treat each other with grace, 351 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 2: because I think our national discourse lacks that. It lacks empathy, 352 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: it lacks grace, It lacks us believing each other when 353 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 2: we say things right. And the thing is, I have 354 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: made mistakes with friends, artst in my culture before and 355 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,159 Speaker 2: outside of my religion. Right. I have like said the 356 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 2: wrong thing, done the wrong thing. And the thing that's 357 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 2: always saved me is that they know that I love 358 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 2: them and I just got it wrong, and we can 359 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:09,919 Speaker 2: talk about it and they're like, Nikki, that's dumb, and 360 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,239 Speaker 2: they'll say it, and then I'll be like, oh, you're right, 361 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: I'm sorry, and then we'll move on and similar the 362 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 2: same things have happened to me, right, and I've treated 363 00:21:18,119 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: them with grace and go, that is the dumbest thing 364 00:21:20,440 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 2: I've ever heard. Here is the truth, and then we'll 365 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 2: move on. But I don't think that we do that anymore, right, Like, 366 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 2: I don't think. I think if someone says this thing 367 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: happened to me and this hurt and you know, this 368 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 2: racist thing happened, to believe them and really listen and 369 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: hear what that means and try to empathize, and you know, 370 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 2: no more whispering about things like that. We have to 371 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 2: really just talk. And most people are good, most people, right, 372 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,200 Speaker 2: they're obviously so terrible people in the world, but most 373 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: people will do the right thing if they know what 374 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,240 Speaker 2: the right thing is. And we just have to talk 375 00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,600 Speaker 2: to each other. It's like, the only way things change 376 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 2: is that way, Like you and me in conversation, really 377 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: listening to each other is the way things change. Right. 378 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 2: Otherwise it's just we're just in our camps, not going anywhere. 379 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that fiction writing provides us with a 380 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: tool to be able to navigate real life and give 381 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 1: us kind of a touchstone to imagine something different than 382 00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: where we are. That reality can be really dark, can 383 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: suck the air out of the room and make us 384 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,679 Speaker 1: believe that what is will always be, And fiction allows 385 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: us the space to dream, even if that dream is 386 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: a is a nightmare or a thriller. 387 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 2: It gets us. 388 00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: Out of out right, yeah, it gets us out of 389 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 1: our skin and out of our mind and someplace else. 390 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,560 Speaker 1: And I think that that is often what is needed 391 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: for change and what is at the core of any revolution. 392 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 1: So I appreciate you so much for your work, for 393 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: this book, which folks, is out now, one of our kind, 394 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 1: and the link will be in this show notes. Nikola, 395 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 1: thank you so much for this conversation and for your work. 396 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: That is it for me today, dear friends on Woke 397 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: a f as always Power to the people and to 398 00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,640 Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.