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Speaker 1: We have breaking news right now.

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Speaker 2: Hunter Biden has been assigned a special counsel by the

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Speaker 2: Department of Justice.

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Speaker 1: That is a bombshell.

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Speaker 2: The Department of Justice has assigned a special counsel to

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Speaker 2: the Hunter Biden probe. That special council is going to

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Speaker 2: be David Weiss. So that was Merrick Garland you just

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Speaker 2: heard giving the announcement there, but not sticking around for

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Speaker 2: any Q and A. It's interesting, simone, they now have

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Speaker 2: a special counsel investigating former President Donald Trump and have

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Speaker 2: brought in a new special counsel, David Weiss, who's going

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Speaker 2: to be investigating the current president's son, Hunter Biden. But

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Speaker 2: of course essentially the GOP wants to through Hunter get

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Speaker 2: to President Biden with this.

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Speaker 3: Clearly, it's interesting here as well that David Weiss, he

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Speaker 3: is the guy that had been handling the probe as

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Speaker 3: a US attorney in Delaware. Garland saying he was the

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Speaker 3: one who requested this appointment. You know, that investigation, that

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Speaker 3: probe had been dragging on for many, many years. So

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Speaker 3: it's interesting to see what we believed. I think that

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Speaker 3: it was wrapping up to a degree, and then there

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Speaker 3: was that failure to enter that plea agreement in court recently.

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Speaker 2: A shocking failure there as well. And the question is

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Speaker 2: was the investigation dragging on or were they dragging the

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Speaker 2: investigation as a one I guess whistleblower had testified. Let's

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Speaker 2: get to Ryan Tague Beck with right now on the phone,

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Speaker 2: political reporter at Bloomberg News. Ryan, this is definitely a

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Speaker 2: shocking headline to see come across. How expected was this

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Speaker 2: in Washington?

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Speaker 4: Now?

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Speaker 5: This is totally unexpected. I mean, I think, you know,

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Speaker 5: obviously there had been sort of persistent questions about unter

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Speaker 5: Biden that Republicans have been trying to sort of forefront.

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Speaker 5: But I think that their hope among Democrats had been

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Speaker 5: that Hunter Biden could kind of sort out his legal

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Speaker 5: problems and put that to an end. When that plea

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Speaker 5: bargain fell apart, that really kind of put things up

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Speaker 5: in the air. And I was a little bit uncertain

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Speaker 5: why it had fallen apart. But this just sort of

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Speaker 5: creates a whole new world of hassle for Hunter Biden

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Speaker 5: and concerned for Democrats that you don't know where a

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Speaker 5: special Council investigation can lead.

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Speaker 3: What's changed here? I mean, I thought these these investigators

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Speaker 3: have been looking into Hunter Biden for years. Is this

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Speaker 3: simply a political move or is this maybe maybe to

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Speaker 3: maintain this image of separation between the administration or is

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Speaker 3: this ye? Do we think that they found something new

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Speaker 3: that they just haven't investigated?

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Speaker 5: I mean, I still don't think that there has been

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Speaker 5: a nun ugh material there from all of the investigations

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Speaker 5: that have happened to really prove that something untoward or

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Speaker 5: extremely bad happened.

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Speaker 1: Right, But there's prove is going a long way?

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Speaker 3: Is yes?

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Speaker 1: I mean, all we need is the appearance of impropriety.

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Speaker 5: Yes, there's enough to raise the question, and the question

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Speaker 5: has been raised repeatedly, and there've been investigations. I think

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Speaker 5: what the special council is a move that you make

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Speaker 5: when there's just been too much question about how you

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Speaker 5: are investigating it for you to credibly continue to say, no,

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Speaker 5: we did this all above board, and it's sort of

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Speaker 5: a way of insulating yourself from that an investigation. Then

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Speaker 5: you hand it over to a special council. That person

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Speaker 5: goes and takes it and runs with it wherever they're

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Speaker 5: going to go. And you may not like where they go,

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Speaker 5: but at least it's no longer your decision, and so

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Speaker 5: I'm I'm a little surprised that they took this move,

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Speaker 5: especially now, But I think that with the whistleblowers and

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Speaker 5: with just sort of the clear sense that this was

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Speaker 5: going to continue to be a political goal, saying no

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Speaker 5: matter where the cases went, that this was sort of

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Speaker 5: the best approach to show the public that like, Okay,

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Speaker 5: this is we're not you know, sacking the deck here,

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Speaker 5: this is being fairly investigated.

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Speaker 2: So what do we know that they'll be investigating. I mean,

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Speaker 2: he had planned as far as I know, on pleading

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Speaker 2: guilty to a tax evasion charge. I don't know if

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Speaker 2: that phrase is too heavy, but not paying taxes for

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Speaker 2: a while and or not paying enough, and to claiming

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Speaker 2: to be sober when he bought a gun in twenty

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Speaker 2: eighteen when he in fact wasn't sober.

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Speaker 1: Is that the only thing? Or is there more?

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Speaker 5: Well? I mean keep in mind that, like you know,

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Speaker 5: Bill Clinton was impeached over an affair like as the

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Speaker 5: end result of a special counsel that was looking into

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Speaker 5: a real estate deal. So you know, the special counsel

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Speaker 5: can go wherever they think the evidence leads them. And

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Speaker 5: as we s you know, as we said, like there's

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Speaker 5: a lot of stuff out there that we've heard about.

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Speaker 5: That case, you know, kind of shady like, doesn't look great,

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Speaker 5: maybe doesn't rise to the level of criminality, but who

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Speaker 5: knows where they will go, you know. So the last

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Speaker 5: thing you want ever is a special council on your trail,

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Speaker 5: because they can turn over any stone they want and

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Speaker 5: there's really not any There's not any way to rein

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Speaker 5: them in. That's the whole point. So so this investigation

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Speaker 5: could go anywhere, or it could be that they go,

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Speaker 5: they look through all the stuff they had, they spend

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Speaker 5: a little bit more time investigating, and they could wrap

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Speaker 5: it all up. And that has happened before. There was

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Speaker 5: a Cabinet secretary who was had a special council and

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Speaker 5: that at the very end of it, they basically said, yeah,

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Speaker 5: there was nothing here. There was never anything here. We

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Speaker 5: just you know, we turned it all over, we looked

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Speaker 5: at all of it and there was nothing. So that

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Speaker 5: can also happen.

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Speaker 2: Ryan, I want you to stick with us. Ryan Teague

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Speaker 2: beck with there from Bloomberg News in Washington. I want

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Speaker 2: to bring in June Grosso. He's a legal analyst from

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg Television, Bloomberg Radio here with us in the Interactive

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Speaker 2: Broker Studio June. This is no doubt a surprising twist

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Speaker 2: of events and just I think a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 1: We expected this all to wrap up with a plea agreement.

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Speaker 6: What happened to that, Well, Hunter Biden walked into a

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Speaker 6: Delaware courtroom expecting to walk out with a plea agreement

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Speaker 6: and the judge questioned the deal. It was very strange,

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Speaker 6: first of all, because the prosecutors in defense appeared and

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Speaker 6: they didn't have the details of the deal nailed down,

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Speaker 6: and they there was confusion about whether he was getting

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Speaker 6: full immunity from any charges or not. And the judge

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Speaker 6: noticed that and said, go back and come back when

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Speaker 6: you have a deal hammered out, and when you know

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Speaker 6: what the immunity is that he's getting. Because Hunter Biden said, well,

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Speaker 6: if I'm not getting immunity, she asked him, would you

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Speaker 6: agree to this deal if you're not getting immunity for

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Speaker 6: other offenses? And he said no. It was a very

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Speaker 6: odd proceeding from the start.

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Speaker 3: And that's why you take a plea agreement for well,

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Speaker 3: not the only reason, but typically a lot of defendants

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Speaker 3: take a plea agreement because they want it to be

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Speaker 3: over and done with and they want to wipe their

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Speaker 3: hands and walk away. How does this work logistically from

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Speaker 3: an invest you're moving the investigation from Delaware to a

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Speaker 3: special counsel. Are there any ways that the investigation would change?

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Speaker 6: You know, I'm not sure. This is so surprising because

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Speaker 6: you know, it's been said time and again that this

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Speaker 6: didn't need to be a special counsel, that he had

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Speaker 6: all the powers that he needed. So in this case,

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Speaker 6: he'll have and you know, he'll have much more resources,

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Speaker 6: he can get more people on board, and it'll be

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Speaker 6: totally separate from the Delaware office, which I think it

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Speaker 6: was anyway. But so Andy, he'll have jurisdiction, wider jurisdiction,

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Speaker 6: and so he can go And as Ryan was saying,

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Speaker 6: you know, think about the proceeding that's been going on

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Speaker 6: forever that started under Donald Trump, the special Council there,

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Speaker 6: the Durham, which has been going on for years and

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Speaker 6: has resulted in losses at trial and just one plea agreement.

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Speaker 6: So the problem with a special council is they have

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Speaker 6: rope and a lot of them take it and run

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Speaker 6: with it, and it goes on and on and on.

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Speaker 6: When it should have been wrapped up. But this way

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Speaker 6: he'll do a report at the end. He you know,

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Speaker 6: allegedly he doesn't have to answer to the Attorney general,

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Speaker 6: but from all that was said, he wasn't answering anyway.

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Speaker 6: So I think this is just being done for political purposes,

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Speaker 6: really to have the appearance of independence. And you know

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Speaker 6: that so that the Republicans in Congress, well, i'd say,

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Speaker 6: can't but are less likely to attack some of the

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Speaker 6: decisions that are made here. But as far as you

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Speaker 6: know what's gone on, it's just been a little bit strange,

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Speaker 6: i'd say, And this makes it even more.

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Speaker 2: And I mean, you know, where there's smoke, there's fire

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Speaker 2: in many cases. And even if there's no fire here

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Speaker 2: yet we can agree that there's a lot of smoke, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean.

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Speaker 6: There is a lot of smoke.

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Speaker 1: Is clearly has clearly.

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Speaker 2: Attempted to leverage his the powerful position his father is

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Speaker 2: in has for years to make money and for that's

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Speaker 2: money and I know that's not illegal, and many president's

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Speaker 2: family members have done it in the past, right, But no,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to make this what about other people?

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Speaker 2: The question is, did have the Republicans moved the ball

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Speaker 2: any further and attempting to prove that there was actually

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Speaker 2: some kickbacks for the Big Gun.

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Speaker 6: No they haven't, that's what they want to prove, but

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Speaker 6: they have it. And the problem is all the smoke

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Speaker 6: around Hunter Biden. So this deal that they gave him,

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Speaker 6: based on those charges from the attorneys that I've spoken to,

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Speaker 6: who are you know, expert in this area, that deal

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Speaker 6: wasn't necessarily a sweetheart deal. It wasn't. In fact, some

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Speaker 6: people who were in that position might not have even

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Speaker 6: been prosecuted, so they would have made it, you know,

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Speaker 6: a plea agreement and just not gone to jail like that.

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Speaker 6: The tax charges where he paid the tax ahead of time,

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Speaker 6: and the gun charges, a lot of people don't even

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Speaker 6: get prosecuted on those. So it wasn't a sweetheart deal.

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Speaker 6: But all the smoke around it, and all the Republican

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Speaker 6: inquiries and also the whistleblowers who testified that you know,

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Speaker 6: there was something wrong with the investigation, that all has

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Speaker 6: created a lot of smoke, and now it has to

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Speaker 6: be you know, has to be solved. And you know,

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Speaker 6: most of the smoke is about his leveraging his father's name.

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Speaker 6: But there hasn't been any proof that Biden was part

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Speaker 6: of that. And also, you know, talk about Washington, how much.

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Speaker 1: It seemed to come into conference calls and meetings quite

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 6: I don't talk about, though, how much leveraging like nepotism

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Speaker 6: in this country. The country runs by nepotism. I mean

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Speaker 6: it's like, how many people do you know whose fathers

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Speaker 6: were you know, CEOs of organizations that they're in actors, actresses.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's ever news business, it's everywhere and then

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Speaker 6: and then.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know you think Trump administration, there were

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Speaker 3: there were daughters and son in laws who are very

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Speaker 3: close to the business. I don't want to go I

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Speaker 3: don't want to go nowhere.

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Speaker 6: I don't want to go to the what about?

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Speaker 3: But I wonder how many special councils we truly need?

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Speaker 2: Right again, this administration was supposed to not be doing

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Speaker 2: things the Trump administration was doing.

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Speaker 1: That was kind of the idea, Well.

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Speaker 6: That Trump How many special councils did the Trump administration have?

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Speaker 2: So we're going to come back to question. This is

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Speaker 2: I think all of a sudden made your day a

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Speaker 2: lot busier. I want to get back to the breaking

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Speaker 2: news that we have Hunter Biden, the hunter Biden probe

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Speaker 2: over the DOJ has been assigned a special council. So

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Speaker 2: we saw briefly Merrick Garland come out and make a

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Speaker 2: statement appointing this special council to oversee the government's ongoing

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Speaker 2: criminal investigation into President Biden's son over his taxes, as

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Speaker 2: well as a number of other issues. Certainly the Republicans

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Speaker 2: hope there will be another number of other issues there.

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Speaker 2: We have Nick Ackerman on the phone right now. He's

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Speaker 2: a former assistant special Watergate prosecutor, and Nick, you know,

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Speaker 2: typically we would talk to you about all things Trump.

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Speaker 2: Increasingly these conversations are about the Biden family, certainly about

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Speaker 2: Hunter Biden. We thought it was all going to be

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Speaker 2: over a couple of weeks ago with the plea agreement,

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Speaker 2: and now it's come to this.

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Speaker 1: Are you surprised?

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Speaker 4: Not completely. I was surprised that the plea didn't go

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Speaker 4: down on the day it was supposed to, but since

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Speaker 4: then this is not at all surprising. I think it

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Speaker 4: was pretty clear at that point that debtly would not

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Speaker 4: have taken care of all the other matters that might

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Speaker 4: be under investigation, and I think that Merrick Garland did

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Speaker 4: the right thing. Appointed Weiss had made it official that

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Speaker 4: he's really a special prosecutor in this thing and that

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Speaker 4: he has complete independence as he had before. And I

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Speaker 4: think it just solidifies that. Don't forget he was appointed

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Speaker 4: initially as the US attorney in Delaware, Yeah, by Donald Trump.

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Speaker 4: So I think this just you know, provides more a

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Speaker 4: distance between the Department of Justice and the prosecutor.

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Speaker 3: But does it give him any extra tools. I just

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Speaker 3: you know, it seems like an investigation had had been

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Speaker 3: happening for a long time. All the members of the

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Speaker 3: Biden administration had had said, you know, Mary Gurland's given

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Speaker 3: him a bunch of tools whatever he wants. But now

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Speaker 3: you know the escalation here. June Grassa was just with us,

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Speaker 3: she's a legal analyst at Bloomberg Law, and was saying,

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Speaker 3: you know, this looks like political move plain and simple.

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Speaker 4: Well, I think it's it's part of what Merrick Garland

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Speaker 4: has done all around. I mean, he has tried on

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Speaker 4: these types of cases that affects the administration and particularly

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Speaker 4: Joe Biden, to put make sure that the person who's

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Speaker 4: doing the investigation, whether it's Jack Smith or whether it's wise,

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Speaker 4: that they are completely independent. I mean, I think what

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Speaker 4: Garland is trying to do is basically used the model

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Speaker 4: of Archibald Cox, who has made the first Watergate Special prosecutor,

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Speaker 4: where he really had total independence, wasn't answerable to the

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Speaker 4: Department of Justice. And I think that's what Mark Garland

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Speaker 4: is trying to set up, so that there is complete

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Speaker 4: buffer between the Department of Justice and Joe Biden. I mean,

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Speaker 4: I think that's really the whole purpose of this is

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Speaker 4: to have somebody in there who is truly independent, and

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Speaker 4: I think this was a way to make it more formalized,

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Speaker 4: particularly if there are other areas to be investigated. Now,

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Speaker 4: having said that a question, you know, what is left

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Speaker 4: to investigate, mainly because you've got a statute of limitations

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Speaker 4: that goes for five years and most of these matters,

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Speaker 4: and if you take the two tack crimes, they were

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Speaker 4: at a period of time. Now that's getting beyond a

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Speaker 4: normal statute of limitations for anything, probably other than tax crimes.

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Speaker 4: So I just, you know, I think it's in some

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Speaker 4: sense it is political to the extent that it's set

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Speaker 4: up so that there is no question of politics not

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Speaker 4: being involved. I mean, I think, you know, to the

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Speaker 4: extent you're saying it's political. I'm having complete independence from

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Speaker 4: the Department of Justice and from Merrick Garland just adds

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Speaker 4: to the fact that the person has the independent ability

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Speaker 4: to do what he's doing. And even though under this

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Speaker 4: crazy special prosecutor regulation it's supposedly the special prosecutor ultimately

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Speaker 4: answers to the Attorney General. I think that Merrick Garland

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Speaker 4: has been and made it clear that he's been totally

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Speaker 4: hands off on all of these matters, whether it's Jack

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Speaker 4: Smith or now it's going to be wise.

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Speaker 2: I mean, frankly, nidn't they have been a lot better

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Speaker 2: off if they've done this from the get go because

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Speaker 2: the concerns are on the Republican side, not just the

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Speaker 2: tax crimes or the gun issue, but the the sort

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Speaker 2: of foot dragging, you know, the idea that if the

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Speaker 2: president's son is a tax evader, he can get away

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Speaker 2: with it, or he'll be given a lighter sentence, Like

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Speaker 2: wouldn't President Biden or the administration of Ben smarter to

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Speaker 2: get this out of the way at the at the beginning?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I totally agree with you, But I think from

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Speaker 4: Merrick Doland's standpoint, appointing somebody who to investigate this, who

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Speaker 4: was a Trump appointee as US attorney in Delaware had

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Speaker 4: the same effect, but in some ways it didn't, And

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Speaker 4: I think what he's trying to do is emphasize that now.

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Speaker 4: It also sends a signal that there are other matters

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Speaker 4: to be investigated. He wouldn't be doing this unless there

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Speaker 4: was something more to invent the gate beyond the tax crimes.

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Speaker 4: So I think this probably also signals the fact that

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Speaker 4: there's not going to be a plea anytime soon. That

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Speaker 4: I think that there are other matters that they're looking at,

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Speaker 4: and I don't think they're in a position yet to

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Speaker 4: say they're going to put this all behind Hunter Biden. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, so there was this closed door testimony of

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Speaker 3: Hunter Biden's X business partner, Devin Archer, and I think

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Speaker 3: the takeaway from some of the press was that this

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Speaker 3: didn't really back up the Republicans accusing President Biden, you know,

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Speaker 3: of crime and corruption. But there were some bits and

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Speaker 3: pieces in there. Was there anything there for you that

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Speaker 3: you thought, you know, this might be potentially the subject

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Speaker 3: of the a probe that could be continued under David Wise, Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Not really. I mean, it sounded like Hunter Biden had

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Speaker 4: his dad call in a couple of times, five times

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Speaker 4: over a long period of time, basically trading off his

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Speaker 4: name but trading off his connection. You know, a lot

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Speaker 4: of other presidents in the past have had the same problem,

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Speaker 4: and Richard Nixon did, Jimmy Carter did. Even Hillary Clinton

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Speaker 4: had this problem with her brother that relatives. You know,

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Speaker 4: if you can pick your friends, but you can't pick

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Speaker 4: your relatives, basically, and it's always been something that's be

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Speaker 4: deviled presidents and people in high public office. So I

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Speaker 4: don't think it really reflected that there was any there there.

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Speaker 4: But look, the public has to be assured that everything

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Speaker 4: is being done by the book, that everything that's out

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Speaker 4: there is being investigated, and at the end of the day,

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Speaker 4: I think this will give that assurance. You know, one

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Speaker 4: he's a special made the special counsel on this, and

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Speaker 4: two he was a former try up a point. I'm

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Speaker 4: a Republican who was the Delaware US attorney who's been

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Speaker 4: kept on and he's the one investigating it. So I

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Speaker 4: really don't see how you can have anybody with any

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Speaker 4: better credentials to do this than Weiss. And I think

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Speaker 4: this provides exactly what needs to be done.

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Speaker 2: Did we find out who the big guy was, Nick,

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Speaker 2: I mean if in the emails that the Post got

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Speaker 2: out of the laptop, in the quote on the CFC

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Speaker 2: China Energy venture when they said ten held by h

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Speaker 2: for the big guy, did we ever figure out who

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Speaker 2: that was?

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Speaker 4: Well, so far they haven't found any there there, But

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Speaker 4: it doesn't mean that they shouldn't investigate it and assure

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Speaker 4: the public that they've looked at everything before they close

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Speaker 4: out the case. I think that is what they've got

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Speaker 4: to do, all right, and that's what Weiss's job is.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 2: Nick, thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate you

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Speaker 2: jumping in on this breaking news. Nick Ackerman, former special

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Speaker 2: Watergate Watergate prosecutor, talking to us about the breaking news

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Speaker 2: that the Department of Justice will appoint a special prosecutor

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Speaker 2: in the Hunter Biden probe and that prosecutor is David Weiss.

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Speaker 2: For Simone Foxman, I'm Matt Miller. This is Bloomberg