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Speaker 1: This is Mesters in Business with Very Results on Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: This week on the podcast, I have another special guest.

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Speaker 1: His name is Marcus Shaw. He has really a fascinating

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Speaker 1: UM career and a focus these days. He really began

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Speaker 1: as a traditional engineer slash finance person, working at IBM

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Speaker 1: as a network engineer before he got his m b

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Speaker 1: a at Duke and from there did the usual research

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Speaker 1: and investment banking gigs throughout a lot of Wall Street

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Speaker 1: before the opportunity came to help entrepreneurs develop and grow

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Speaker 1: their businesses in places like Alabama and Tennessee, which ultimately

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Speaker 1: led him uh to participate in the founding of of

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Speaker 1: a new firm called Old Finance, which was created by

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Speaker 1: really a group of um for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 1: of finance royalty. It's Howard Marks of oak Tree Capital.

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Speaker 1: It's Tony Wrestler of Aries, Mark Rowan of Apollo Global.

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Speaker 1: These three gentlemen said, we're lacking the ability to tap

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Speaker 1: into a very rich, diverse talent pool, including historically black

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Speaker 1: colleges and universities, venture capital, private equity. Just we're not

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Speaker 1: recruiting from those spaces, and so they stood up a

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Speaker 1: firm called Old Finance, whose main purpose was to help

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Speaker 1: alternative asset managers tap into that rich pool of potential

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Speaker 1: hires UH. Marcus shaw works with them, and he's the

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Speaker 1: CEO of Ald Finance. I found this to be really

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Speaker 1: a fascinating conversation about how to access the most skilled

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Speaker 1: UH partners and and employees, what can be done to

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Speaker 1: shake up a relatively stayed industry that has lagged behind

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Speaker 1: its peers in terms of recruiting and other things, and

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Speaker 1: and really how to help have a major impact UH

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Speaker 1: in the world's of finance. And I found this conversation

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Speaker 1: to be fascinating and I think you will also, so,

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Speaker 1: with no further ado, my interview with Marcus shaw Berry.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for inviting me. I'm excited to

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Speaker 1: chat with you. So let's talk a little bit about

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Speaker 1: Wall Street and diversity. Wall Street has been pretty bad

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Speaker 1: at recruiting black talent. It's been a stated objective for decades.

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Speaker 1: Why is finance so bad at this? Barry? I think

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Speaker 1: there it's a complex question, UM that requires actually a

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Speaker 1: complex solution and a multifacet solution. I would say the

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Speaker 1: most general issue here is that folks don't have the

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Speaker 1: networks and the access to careers in finance from across

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Speaker 1: the country. Right, So, if you grow up in New York, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you'll probably know some people that worked in the industry,

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Speaker 1: and you may have some relationships, you may go to

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Speaker 1: school with somebody, your parent may work there. And that's

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Speaker 1: whether you're white or black, all right. Um. But if

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Speaker 1: you don't, if you grow up in a market where

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Speaker 1: there's not an investment bank, there's nothing other than a

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Speaker 1: branch bank for one of the multidimensional financials, then you're

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Speaker 1: not really going to have an understanding of what that

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Speaker 1: career looks like at a young age. And so as

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Speaker 1: you get ready to go to college and you start

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Speaker 1: thinking about what your career good look like, it's gonna

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Speaker 1: be primarily academic for you. Um. And so I think

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Speaker 1: that's always a challenge that they're not a ton of people.

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Speaker 1: They're in the seats they're getting access to, in this case,

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Speaker 1: black students from across the country. They're giving them a

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Speaker 1: look at this is what a career could look like

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Speaker 1: for you, This is what an opportunity could look like

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Speaker 1: for you. Here's what the real with possibilities is. And

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Speaker 1: this primarily is how you get there. Here's a path

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Speaker 1: to get there. Um, that's the biggest challenge. So, so

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Speaker 1: tell us about all Finance, what is its mission and

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Speaker 1: why is this a better masse trap than the way

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Speaker 1: things have been done before. So All Finance is focused

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Speaker 1: on building diversity in the alternative investment industry. Alternatives being

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Speaker 1: venture capital, private equity, anything else, private credit, real estate investing,

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Speaker 1: hedge funds, um everything kind of outside of traditional stock

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Speaker 1: and bond investment. Right the things that are more private

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Speaker 1: market driven often and so our goal is increased diversity

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Speaker 1: in that space by working with partnerships at historically black

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Speaker 1: colleges and universities, by providing students from HBCUs opportunities to

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Speaker 1: have co curricular programming understanding you know exactly what you

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Speaker 1: need to know to be successful in that role. Also

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Speaker 1: to provide mentors ship for students so that they're not

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Speaker 1: operating in a vacuum, so that when they have questions

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Speaker 1: there are people in the business, people that have experienced

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Speaker 1: in the business that they can talk to. And also

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Speaker 1: by working and partnering with schools to provide um financial

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Speaker 1: support to help increase capacity not only for students, but

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Speaker 1: also for the institutions themselves. So let's talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about how old Finance was initially funded and created.

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Speaker 1: You have Howard Marks of oak Tree Capital, Um, Mark

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Speaker 1: Rowan of Apollo, Tony Wrestler of of Aries. These are

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Speaker 1: like three heavy hitters at giant legendary firms. That's a

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Speaker 1: heavy group to to work with. What led them to say,

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Speaker 1: we need help accessing black talent and we're not getting

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Speaker 1: it from anywhere else, we have to do it ourselves.

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Speaker 1: What I think all three gentlemen, and you know Howard,

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Speaker 1: Mark and Tony all recognized is that relationships help drive value,

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Speaker 1: and so you've got to have relationships with the schools

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Speaker 1: and the places where there is a lot of black talent.

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Speaker 1: And I think they saw HBC used as an opportunity

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Speaker 1: for that. I think what's important, though, and what's key,

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Speaker 1: is that we found ourselves at a very interesting point

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Speaker 1: in time in the wake of George Floyd, in the

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Speaker 1: middle of COVID, and so I think everybody around the world,

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Speaker 1: business leaders from across multiple industries, we're trying to think

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Speaker 1: about how can we make the world a better place,

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Speaker 1: How can we address um racial equity in a way

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Speaker 1: that's specific to the businesses that we operate in and

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Speaker 1: I think that's the key, right. This was not just

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Speaker 1: about you know, going out and being philanthropic, right and

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Speaker 1: making one time gifts. This was about how can you

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Speaker 1: be UM strategic in building partnerships over the long term

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Speaker 1: they're going to have a systemic impact in the industry

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Speaker 1: in which you operate. And that's where I really think

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Speaker 1: that that the three firms led by again Howard Tonian

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Speaker 1: Mark really found something that was special and something that was,

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Speaker 1: you know, a better solution to a question that Wall

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Speaker 1: Street has been dealing with for years. So so is

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Speaker 1: it safe to say that Wall Street in general, but

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Speaker 1: alternatives like private equity and venture capital, we're not recruiting

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Speaker 1: at historically black colleges and universities. Was that void out

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Speaker 1: there forever? I think that it was not systemic, right,

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Speaker 1: There was no systemic recruiting UM at HBCUs in a

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Speaker 1: way that was going to be sustainable, right, And I

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Speaker 1: think that a lot of that was driven by needing

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Speaker 1: to take some time and figure out how do we

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Speaker 1: engage with these universities. We know we've got talent there,

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Speaker 1: We've got density of talent, which is the important thing UM,

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Speaker 1: And so I think giving us time to reflect on

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Speaker 1: what had happened over the past few years. Was a

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Speaker 1: really strong case for let's go let's be direct and intentional.

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Speaker 1: Let's work with presidents at these universities, Let's work with

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Speaker 1: the deans, Let's work with the students to develop a

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Speaker 1: strategy together that's going to rise the tide for everybody.

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Speaker 1: So I want to get into the details of what

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Speaker 1: you guys actually do with students. But before I get there,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned Tony, Howard and Mark what led them to say, Hey,

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Speaker 1: let's stand up some entity so we can set up

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Speaker 1: an institution to correct, uh, just a recruiting shortfall we've

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Speaker 1: had for years and years Like that's an unusual group

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Speaker 1: of guys to get together and say, let's see if

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Speaker 1: we can dent the universe a little bit. Yeah. Um, So,

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Speaker 1: I think there are two factors, number one, and I

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Speaker 1: think they both reflect strong leadership at the Firm's Number one,

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Speaker 1: you had, you know, somewhat of a ground swell from

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Speaker 1: within the firm, certainly a leadership that said we need

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Speaker 1: to figure out a way to do something. And I think,

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Speaker 1: as great leaders do, I think Howard and Tony and

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Speaker 1: Mark were receptive to that and Also it was perfect

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Speaker 1: timing because they were thinking, how can we drive impact?

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Speaker 1: How can we uh impact and effect change in our

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Speaker 1: own way. And so it starts off with senior leaders

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Speaker 1: at the firm, and you know, these heads of industry

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Speaker 1: working together to figure out what can we do. Then

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Speaker 1: you bring the relationships together. So Howard and Marcantoni have

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Speaker 1: known each other, but also many of their senior leaders

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Speaker 1: have known each other as well. And so the main

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Speaker 1: thing that you have to do is say, we want

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Speaker 1: to take down any competitive barriers in which we operate

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Speaker 1: during our standard business, and we recognize that what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to solve for is bigger than our individual company.

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Speaker 1: It's really about the industry. And if you can get

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Speaker 1: to that point, which they did very quickly, I mind you,

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Speaker 1: then you can instantly start to put together something as

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Speaker 1: powerful as all Finance. And that happened, um, And it

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Speaker 1: happened fairly quickly, but I think it took a lot

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Speaker 1: of time and a lot of vulnerability and a lot

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Speaker 1: of transparency UM. And I think that's really symbolic of

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Speaker 1: of what all Finance represents. So now let's drill down

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Speaker 1: a little bit and talk about what you exactly do

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Speaker 1: with students. Do you guys provide coaching or mentorship? What

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Speaker 1: do you do to help kids who probably aren't all

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Speaker 1: that familiar with what private credit is and put them

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Speaker 1: on a career path into alternative investments. So there's a

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Speaker 1: framework that I use. I use it with entrepreneurs, I

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Speaker 1: use it with with talent anywhere I see it. First,

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Speaker 1: you identify really good talent, right, kids that have an

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Speaker 1: interest in investing, although they may not know the nuance

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Speaker 1: of what investing asset class that they're most interested in,

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Speaker 1: or you know, they're young. They may not have the

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Speaker 1: experience of understanding multicycles in the market, but they haven't

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Speaker 1: interest in investing. They have academic strength, right, some some

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Speaker 1: real intellectual rigor and horsepower. And so you look at

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Speaker 1: kids that perform well no matter what they do. I'm

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Speaker 1: you know, the kid could be a philosophy major, that

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Speaker 1: could be a finance major, but are they doing well

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Speaker 1: in the pursuit that they're following um And then we

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Speaker 1: look for for students that are coachable, right, Coachable. Coachable

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Speaker 1: is key. It's an apprentice model business. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: nobody that comes into this business and comes in right

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Speaker 1: out of college. As a partner. Even if they've got

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Speaker 1: all the resources in the world, nobody's going to come

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Speaker 1: in as a partner. By and large, most people start

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Speaker 1: this business as an analyst and they work with associates,

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Speaker 1: and those associates work with vps and principles and managing

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Speaker 1: directors and so forth. So you need people that are

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Speaker 1: gonna be willing to work through the apprenticeship model, that

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Speaker 1: are willing to come in, you know, well compensated, a

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Speaker 1: great network of people that they're going to be around,

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Speaker 1: but they're still gonna have to listen and be coached

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Speaker 1: up um in order to benefit the team and the company.

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Speaker 1: And so we look for those things. People that have

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Speaker 1: an interest in vesting, people that have intellectual horsepower, and

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Speaker 1: people that are coachable. That's that's really intriguing. So it's

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Speaker 1: not so much specific qualifications that are needed as qualities

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Speaker 1: that will allow the students you select to succeed going forward. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think, by and large, I mean I would say

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Speaker 1: that those qualities, you know, we recognize them through qualifications, right,

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Speaker 1: So I look for people who have strong g p

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Speaker 1: a s and people they're taking some rigorous coursework, even

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Speaker 1: if that courseworks not in finance. I look for people

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Speaker 1: that have done extracurricular work or you know, manage their

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Speaker 1: own little portfolio, or have stock ideas or business ideas

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Speaker 1: that they want to pitch. And then I look for

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Speaker 1: people who also have references that say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: this young man, this young woman has been really coachable

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Speaker 1: in the time that I've had them in school. So,

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Speaker 1: generally speaking, alternative assets, that's a tough gig to get into,

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Speaker 1: regardless of where you go to school. Private equity, venture capital,

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Speaker 1: hedge funds, real estate, down the whole list, not not easy.

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Speaker 1: How much harder is it to get into that space

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Speaker 1: if you're coming from an HBCU. I think it can

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Speaker 1: be difficult um and and not because of anything that's

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Speaker 1: attributed to the student themselves. I think it can be

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Speaker 1: difficult because no matter where you're coming from, you need

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Speaker 1: to know somebody to get into this business. And so

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Speaker 1: the first key is how can you create networks that

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Speaker 1: allow HBCU students to have mentors, to have advocates that

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Speaker 1: are in the industry that learn and know them well,

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Speaker 1: know their strengths, know their weaknesses, no you know their

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Speaker 1: ambition and their aspirations, and can speak to that and

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Speaker 1: help guide them to certain careers inside of alternatives where

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Speaker 1: they can be successful. Really intriguing. Let's talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about some of the work you've done. UH start

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Speaker 1: with CEO of the Company Lab. What what was COLLABS

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Speaker 1: mission and why Tennessee. My wife and I decided to

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Speaker 1: move to Tennessee back in two thousand and sixteen. She

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Speaker 1: joined a practice down there, and we had family in Tennessee,

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Speaker 1: and it was really a unique opportunity to to move around.

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Speaker 1: We've moved around a bunch and and have enjoyed all

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Speaker 1: the different places that we lived in the country. Chattanooga

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Speaker 1: is a fascinating city UM really steeped in some rich history,

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Speaker 1: but also a city that faces some challenges as they

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Speaker 1: grow UM from a very small city to a more

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Speaker 1: significant city in the U. S economy. UM I. When

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Speaker 1: I moved down there, I was still working with MLT

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Speaker 1: and then an opportunity came up to take a pretty

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Speaker 1: significant role within the community UM as the CEO of

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Speaker 1: the Company Lab. The Company Lab was the entrepreneurship and

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Speaker 1: Economic Development Center UM before Chattanooga and the surrounding areas

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Speaker 1: which include North Georgia, North Alabama, and Southeast Tennessee. It

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Speaker 1: was incredible to really focus on local opportunities for entrepreneurs,

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Speaker 1: for investors, for economic development, and really see how the

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Speaker 1: fabric of a city, UH with you know about a

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Speaker 1: couple of hundred thousand people can develop when you have

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Speaker 1: people that are really dedicated to fostering that growth. It

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Speaker 1: was just like a private public partnership. Tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about the structure of that. It was a

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Speaker 1: private public partnership UM. It was set up as a

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Speaker 1: nonprofit that had funding coming some funding coming from the States,

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Speaker 1: some funding coming from foundations UM, and then some funding

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Speaker 1: coming from corporate entities that also found economic development in

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Speaker 1: the region very important. What what some of the economic

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Speaker 1: UM sectors within within that area? What is Chattanooga known for? So,

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Speaker 1: Chattanooga is known for a couple of things, right, key brands.

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Speaker 1: Number one, Coca Cola Bottling is the the UM company

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Speaker 1: that really helped to jump start the city. And so

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Speaker 1: Jack Lupton was kind of the patriarch of of that

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Speaker 1: company UM and sold that company back to Coca Cola

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Speaker 1: in the mid nineties. They were two separate companies at

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Speaker 1: the So the yes, there were a number of bottling

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Speaker 1: UM companies that would bottle Coca Cola product and distributed

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Speaker 1: it throughout the country or throughout the region, and UM

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Speaker 1: the one in Chattanooga, Coca Cola Bottling was one of

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Speaker 1: the larger ones UM in the mid century. Again, it

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Speaker 1: was sold back to Coca Cola as they consolidated those

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Speaker 1: businesses UM and left a pretty strong economic footprint in Chattanooga. UM.

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Speaker 1: Chattanooga was also the home of Moonpie and Little Devi right,

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Speaker 1: and a number of consumer products that are very familiar

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Speaker 1: brands that we know about but did not know that

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Speaker 1: they were from Chattanooga UM. And so what I saw

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Speaker 1: in Chattanooga was a rich history around entrepreneurship that necessarily

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Speaker 1: hadn't found its way into the modern day. Right. We

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Speaker 1: didn't see a lot of great companies coming out of

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Speaker 1: Chattanooga in the late nineties during the tech bubble and

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Speaker 1: and and so forth. So what did you accomplish when

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Speaker 1: you were there? Do you feel like you move the

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Speaker 1: needle little, Well, we moved the needle tremendously. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: there were some companies that were there when I took

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Speaker 1: the seat, companies like Bellhop that's a tremendous company UM

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Speaker 1: and kind of operates in the uber of moving right,

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Speaker 1: so you a fantastic moving company and a fantastic culture.

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Speaker 1: UM there was a company, Freight Waves that has done

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Speaker 1: fantastic work. People kind of equated to the Bloomberg of trucking. UM.

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Speaker 1: And so they've got a freight way Freight Waves, freight

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Speaker 1: Waves Freight with W. A. V. E. S Um and

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Speaker 1: Craig Fuller, who's the founder and CEO. Down there's a

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Speaker 1: good friend but also a really strong business person who's

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Speaker 1: done some great work. We brought Steve Case and Rise

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Speaker 1: to the rest of Chattanooga and UM Freight Waves was

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Speaker 1: actually the investment that they made in Chattanooga and has

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Speaker 1: done great work. The company has grown, They've employed hundreds

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Speaker 1: of people at meaningful salaries. And that's what it takes

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Speaker 1: to move the needle in a place like Chattanooga. And

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Speaker 1: there are hundreds of cities like that around the child.

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Speaker 1: So how do you go from Tennessee to Alabama and

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Speaker 1: Montgomery Tech last, So, as I was leaving Collab in Tennessee,

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Speaker 1: I saw what was going on in Montgomery, and I

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Speaker 1: saw that Montgomery had great leadership. The mayor down there,

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Speaker 1: Stephen Reid, has done a fantastic job in Montgomery. I

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Speaker 1: also saw that they had some really unique assets. They've

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Speaker 1: got UM, a fantastic Air Force installation down there, They've

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Speaker 1: got the state capital there in Montgomery, that got a

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Speaker 1: really diverse population. And so what I really did was

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Speaker 1: take the thesis that we were working with in Chattanooga

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Speaker 1: and adjusted so that it applied to Montgomery. UM. And

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Speaker 1: so in a couple of years down there, we've been

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Speaker 1: able to bring some really incredible companies to Montgomery to

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Speaker 1: see the type of value that they have there. But

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Speaker 1: we've also, in this most recent cohort UM and the

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Speaker 1: team down there's an incredible job helped grow companies that

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Speaker 1: are there in Montgomery, focusing on tech solutions and tech

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Speaker 1: services to help them expand and recognize assets even outside

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Speaker 1: of the region. So you mentioned tech. I tend to

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Speaker 1: think of the West Coast as the you know, the

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Speaker 1: center of tech in the US. The northeast is the

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Speaker 1: center of finance. The southeast. How should we think about

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Speaker 1: that in terms of the business sectors that they should

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Speaker 1: be known for. So I think there are a couple

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Speaker 1: of things. UM Number one, manufacturing has been strong in

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Speaker 1: the Southeast for a number of years, a lot of

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Speaker 1: car companies read a lot of car companies UM. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of pro business environment UM for companies with

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Speaker 1: with big labor forces in the Southeast, you're able to

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Speaker 1: operate UM at a more efficient standard of living in

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Speaker 1: terms of cost, and so you see a lot of

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Speaker 1: car manufacturers operating down there. Also transportation and logistics, Chattanooga

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Speaker 1: UM was probably one of the biggest hubs for transportation

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Speaker 1: logistics in the country. Anything that's coming through the Southeast

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Speaker 1: via truck is coming through either one or seventy five

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Speaker 1: or twenty four. All of that comes through Chattanooga, and

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Speaker 1: so that was something that we saw. You've got companies

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Speaker 1: like US Express and Covenant that operate in chatted and

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Speaker 1: FedEx or UPS have a big logistics center. So FedEx

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Speaker 1: is out in Memphis, in Memphis, CNSE so on the

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Speaker 1: other side of the state. But those trucks, again will

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Speaker 1: all come through through Chattanooga. And so when you think

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Speaker 1: about you know the South, thing you think about industries

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Speaker 1: that are moving UM, it continues to be manufacturing and logistics. Also,

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Speaker 1: healthcare is really popping up. Nashville in Atlanta are two

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Speaker 1: very large health care hubs. UM. Some of that is

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Speaker 1: due unfortunately to demand right where you have health outcomes

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Speaker 1: that are probably a little more severe UM and some

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Speaker 1: of the southeastern states in the United States, and so

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Speaker 1: you need strong healthcare to meet the needs of the population.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting we're talking about different parts of the country. UM.

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Speaker 1: A lot of the bigger firms want to see the

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Speaker 1: end of remote work or hybrid work. But I would

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Speaker 1: imagine that that creates opportunity ease for parts of the

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Speaker 1: country like Chattanooga and Nashville and Montgomery, where there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of big companies that may not be located there,

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Speaker 1: but they want to tap the pool of talent that's there.

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Speaker 1: So we've seen that, and in talking with leaders in

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Speaker 1: in a number of cities UM throughout the South and

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Speaker 1: and even throughout other areas in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: country UM that have not tremendous not traditionally had the

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Speaker 1: type of talent there or the draw to those cities. UM.

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Speaker 1: You definitely saw a surge of people, I would say

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Speaker 1: during the COVID period that we're moving to cities where

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Speaker 1: there was a lower cost of living but a strong

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Speaker 1: quality of living and they could work remote. And so

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Speaker 1: I think there's been a benefit to those cities UM,

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Speaker 1: and that you're getting people that are moving. You know,

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Speaker 1: Nashville had a ton of people that were moving to Nashville,

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Speaker 1: primarily from California, UM, and that really strengthened the work

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Speaker 1: or the labor force in Nashville. What you do see

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Speaker 1: on the other side of the coin, though, is that

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Speaker 1: for companies that are there locally, it can be a

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Speaker 1: detriment because you have people that are there in the

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Speaker 1: city and may take jobs outside of the region instead

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Speaker 1: of taking jobs there in the region. And so there's

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Speaker 1: a delicate balance right to the impact UM, particularly for

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Speaker 1: small to mid size markets where you have a labor

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Speaker 1: force that's needed in the market that's finding opportunities outside

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Speaker 1: of the market, even if they continue to live. Let's

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Speaker 1: spend a little time going over some of your history.

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Speaker 1: Your your families from Mississippi. But you grew up a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a military Brad tell us tell us

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Speaker 1: about those experiences. Yes, so, my my dad's actually from Mississippi.

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Speaker 1: My mom was from North Carolina. My dad was a

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Speaker 1: naval officer who retired shortly before I was born. So

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Speaker 1: I spent most of my time growing up in Maryland,

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Speaker 1: right outside of d C. So you didn't do the

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Speaker 1: whole army. Brad didn't do that. But I did hang

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Speaker 1: out on military basis a lot. So all my friends

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Speaker 1: would change every three years when the PCs. Right, So

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Speaker 1: I had kind of the ob sit side of the travel,

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Speaker 1: which is being the friend that was always left behind. Right.

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Speaker 1: That's that's really Uh, that's really intriguing. What what did

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Speaker 1: your dad, dad retire from doing? What was his So

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Speaker 1: my dad, my dad had two careers in his life.

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Speaker 1: He grew up in Mississippi, his picking cotton believe it

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Speaker 1: or not when he was seven years Oldways born in

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Speaker 1: nine seven years old. Right, we talked about skipping generations. Um.

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Speaker 1: He went into the Navy in nineteen and spent twenty

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Speaker 1: seven years in the Navy. He retired and went to

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Speaker 1: work at the Library of Congress and Personnel. Was able

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Speaker 1: to get his undergrad master's PhD all through the g

401
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Speaker 1: I bill while he was in the navy. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I always say my father is a real hero of

403
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Speaker 1: mine because he truly did skip three generations in one lifetime. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's really impressive. Was was mom working? Was she mother?

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Speaker 1: My mother was a fifty year school teacher and uh,

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Speaker 1: public school in d C for fifty years, um, and

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Speaker 1: really was an inspiration for the way I think about

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Speaker 1: learn eLearning and understanding the value of education. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about education. You went to Sidwell

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Speaker 1: Friends School. That that's some rarefied company, isn't it. It's

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Speaker 1: some good people that have gone there. Yeah, who did

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Speaker 1: you go to school with? Any famous names? Well, Marcus

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Speaker 1: Shaw's one, um, But no I had. I had great

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Speaker 1: great folks in my class. Bear Tune Day Thurston who

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Speaker 1: may have heard of, author um and producer that spent

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Speaker 1: time with the Daily Show, John bern Ball who's a

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Speaker 1: great actor, Tommy Kale who was the director of Hamilton's

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Speaker 1: and and some other big plays. But you know, everybody

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Speaker 1: in our class was was phenomenal. Um. Also folks like

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Speaker 1: Chelsea Clinton and later the Obama girls went to said well,

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Speaker 1: so some rarefied air indeed, But um, a great group

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Speaker 1: of students and a great group of friends. So so

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Speaker 1: you go from there to get a mathematics degree from

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Speaker 1: Morehouse College, then onto Georgia Tech for an electrical engineering

425
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Speaker 1: degree with little football mixed in. Tell us a little

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00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,120
Speaker 1: bit about your act ademic career in college. So when

427
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Speaker 1: I went to more House. I was excited. I went

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Speaker 1: down there with a few friends. It was a great

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Speaker 1: mix to be able to go to a school like

430
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: said well and then go to an hvc U. UM

431
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 1: as esteemed as more House was. Was really a great

432
00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: opportunity for me to have a bunch of different experiences. UM.

433
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: My story around playing football is probably my great interview story.

434
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: I UH was playing cards with a bunch of guys

435
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: right at the beginning of the school year, and UH

436
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: made a bet that I could kick a fifty yard

437
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: field goal. So we go out on the field. We

438
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: jumped the fence, I line up, take about twenty steps

439
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: back kick a field goal from fifty yards. One of

440
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: the coaches comes out and yells at us to get

441
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 1: off the field with trespassing. UM. As we're leaving, he

442
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: tells me to come out to the walk on tryouts

443
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:48,919
Speaker 1: at the end of the week. How close did you

444
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: come to a fifty yard field goal? Oh? I knocked

445
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: it down. He made it, man. He he didn't want

446
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 1: me to come out because I missed it. He wanted

447
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,639
Speaker 1: to come out because I made it. And UM, you know,

448
00:25:57,760 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: I went on to play four years and more House

449
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 1: and had some some strong accolades there, But really even

450
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 1: that experience was about building great friends, um, that I

451
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: played football with, and many of those gentlemen have going

452
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 1: on to do incredible things as well. What why is

453
00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: it not surprising that a math nerd is also a

454
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: place kicker. It seems to be like, um, the field

455
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 1: goal seems to be one of the most mathematical parts

456
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: of football. Well, it's pure geometry, right, So one point

457
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 1: three seconds from the snapper to putting the ball down

458
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: and getting the ball off the ground, the angle that

459
00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 1: has got to come up, you know, is is pretty

460
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 1: significant in terms of your probability of making it. Um.

461
00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: So I already I looked at it as an exercise

462
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,679
Speaker 1: in physics, geometry, Um, you know a little bit of

463
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: chemistry depending on on the texture of the football. So

464
00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:48,199
Speaker 1: I thought I was a natural. That's really intriguing. And

465
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: then you go on get your masters at Duke School

466
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 1: of Business. Uh, what led you in that direction? Given

467
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: the mathematics and electrical engineering undergraduate? So I went to

468
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: IBM after my completing my undergrad degree at Georgia Tech

469
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: and Electrical Engineering and had a great time there, learned

470
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 1: a lot, but really wanted to understand the way that

471
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: we were selling business right, understanding more about the business

472
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: of IBM and how we thought about the products and

473
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 1: services that I was delivering as an engineer. UM not

474
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: to mention one of my you know, very good friends

475
00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: that played football with me, A more House, was a

476
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: year ahead of me in business school. He said, you're

477
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: pretty smart. You should check out business school. And uh,

478
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,879
Speaker 1: fortunately enough, I had a great school in Duke that

479
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 1: was right there in Durham. My wife was in med

480
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: school at U n C. And Uh, I didn't have

481
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: to move to go to a great business school, which

482
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: was really refreshing and it was a great experience and

483
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,840
Speaker 1: I learned a lot about business there and kicked off

484
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: a new career from there. You end up going into

485
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: a decade of equity research and investment banking at shops

486
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 1: like Bank of America, Piedmont others. What led to that

487
00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: aspect of finance. So I always tell folks this is

488
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,280
Speaker 1: one of the great turning points in my life. When

489
00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 1: I went to business school, I was pretty confident that

490
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: I was going to come out of business school and

491
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: go back to IBM. I was gonna stay an engineer.

492
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 1: I wanted to learn more about marketing and you know,

493
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: some operations around technology. There was a point right before

494
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: the start of my first year in business school, so

495
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 1: this is two thousand three, I had an opportunity to

496
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 1: go to a camp, two day camp at Goldman that

497
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:29,560
Speaker 1: was focused on providing insights in investment careers for people

498
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: that did not have an investment background. And they, you know,

499
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,719
Speaker 1: they fly you up your smart kid, put you up

500
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: in a nice hotel. And I met a woman who

501
00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 1: covered enterprise software at Goldman, and she gave me really

502
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: great insight into how I could leverage the industry knowledge

503
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: that I had developed at IBM. And so really it

504
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: was one person on an off conversation, you know, down

505
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: on Broad Street twenty plus years ago that led to

506
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 1: my career. She said, Equity research is a great ace

507
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 1: where if you know a lot about the business and

508
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: you learn a lot about finance, you can be impactful,

509
00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: You can earn a good living, you can really understand

510
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 1: the markets and meet great people. As opposed to the opposite,

511
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: which is learning knowing a lot about finance and then

512
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: having to learn a whole industry from the outside. It's

513
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: a very different perspective than starting with the industry knowledge

514
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: from the inside and and that perspective is something that

515
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: I think we've got to learn to embrace more because

516
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: you know, finances challenging, but it's not difficult, right. It

517
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: requires putting in work and getting reps um in order

518
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: to start to understand patterns and be able to anticipate

519
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,400
Speaker 1: things that you will see in the market or things

520
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: that you'll see at a company. But really understanding that

521
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: the core of industry is what makes a master of business, right.

522
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how you really start to hone the

523
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 1: skills that you need in order to make a true

524
00:29:55,760 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: alpha out there in the market as an investor. So

525
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: tell us what you did at ups like Bank of America.

526
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: What was your focus? So I covered telecom services at

527
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 1: Bank of America UM. During my time at IBM, I

528
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: had worked UM on several telecom networking projects and really

529
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: understood the industry, things like spectrum and things like wireless

530
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 1: that were coming of age at that time. I understood

531
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: pretty deeply. And you know, through my understanding of finance,

532
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: I was able to say, these are businesses that I

533
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 1: think will do well, These are businesses that are positioned

534
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: to do well, and once the market understands that the

535
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 1: socks will perform. Um. I had a great mentors at

536
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: at a Bank of America, a great team that I

537
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: worked with and really set me up for a great

538
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: start in in finance. So you have a little bit

539
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: of a health scare when you're relatively young, and it

540
00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,080
Speaker 1: changes your career trajectory. Tell us what led you to

541
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: stepping off of the merry go round? Yeah, um, it's

542
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 1: an incredible story and um one that I think also

543
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: defines a lot of where my life has led. Um.

544
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: So this is you know, I was at a firm

545
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: in d C and UH covering tech, media, telecom, a

546
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 1: bunch of regulated industries as well, and was having some

547
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: chest pain and a bunch of traders had you know,

548
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,400
Speaker 1: what we call walking pneumonia. But it takes everything to

549
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: get a trader off the desk, right, I mean, they'll

550
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: the whole desk will get pneumonia before they leave. And um,

551
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: I was pretty sure that's what I had And was

552
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 1: coughing for a few days and had some pain in

553
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 1: my chest. Go to the hospital, they take an x ray,

554
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: They see that I've got some swelling and a little

555
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: bit of cloudiness there in my lungs, and they give

556
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: me a Z pack and antibiotic. They think that I

557
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: might have had pneumonia. My wife, who's a physicious, as

558
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,200
Speaker 1: I shared with you before you know, comes to the

559
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: hospital to the emergency room. She asked me what they said.

560
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: I said, you know, as an equity research guy, I

561
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: think I know it all. I've got pneumonia. You know,

562
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: they saw it on the X ray. What I did.

563
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: Let me see those those She's like, let me see

564
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 1: what's going on exactly. She didn't buy it. Well, she

565
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 1: didn't buy it because she's a doctor and she's very

566
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: good at her job. Like I say all the time,

567
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: I've got a great wife. But I've got the best

568
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:09,440
Speaker 1: doctor that anybody could have in their house. I had

569
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: some leg pain earlier in the week, left side, left side,

570
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: So we know what we know where this is going

571
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 1: right there? You out thought it was a Charlie horse.

572
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: I played a little basketball with buddies. This was right

573
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: at the end of a Thanksgiving holiday and I got

574
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: a group of buddies, lifelong friends. We always played basketball together,

575
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 1: and I thought it was a Charlie horse pain and

576
00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: the leg went away. A couple of days later, I'm

577
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 1: having this pain in my chest, and I take myself

578
00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: to the hospital. She goes, did you tell them about

579
00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,480
Speaker 1: your leg? And I said no. She goes into the

580
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: head of the emergency room's office. The guy comes back

581
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: out and he says, how come you didn't tell me

582
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: about your leg. I said, well, my leg doesn't hurt anymore.

583
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:53,360
Speaker 1: It's my chest. I got pneumonia. That's what that's raised.

584
00:32:53,920 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 1: This is where equity research guys talk themselves into a hole.

585
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: They think they know more than they do. I know

586
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 1: a lot about telecom, I know no thing about healthcare,

587
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: all right. Um, So the guy comes out and he says, well,

588
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 1: we gotta do give you what we call a d dimer. Right,

589
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: there's a test for blood clots essentially. Um, they do

590
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: the tests. I am at this point the second sickest person,

591
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 1: highest priority in the emergency. They rolled me in, They

592
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: give me an m R I. They see the blood

593
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: clots in my lungs, they see some remnants in my leg.

594
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: I'm immediately, um, you know, brought into the hospital and

595
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: and I'm there for several days. They give me blood thinner.

596
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: They want to make sure that these clots don't pass

597
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: or anything crazy like no, no, no, no, no, so

598
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 1: what I had was was a blood clot, right, so

599
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,480
Speaker 1: I did not have a heart attack. Um, I'm in

600
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: the Strokes Center there, the hospital in d C. And

601
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: for me, it was really a point where you start

602
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: thinking about your life in a different way. It had

603
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,479
Speaker 1: to be terrifying when your wife comes in and the

604
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: head of the R e R says, stat, let's let's

605
00:33:58,560 --> 00:34:02,440
Speaker 1: let's get this guy taking care of immediately. It is,

606
00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 1: but not as scary until you realize what's really happening,

607
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: and that you know, there's things that they called widow makers,

608
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: which are these bilateral blood clots that you get across

609
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 1: the aortic valve. And I mean you just go away,

610
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,880
Speaker 1: you're done right. As somebody that's kind of steeped in mathematics, probabilities, investment,

611
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 1: you always have you thinking about the future, and um,

612
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 1: you know my great story from that is that I

613
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 1: actually upgraded a stock Pandora media from the I see

614
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: you in the hospital. Um, yeah, to which my wife responded,

615
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 1: you know, if you die writing a research report, I'll

616
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: kill you, right. Um. So this is where you start

617
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: putting it together. You put a little bit of life together,

618
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,760
Speaker 1: and you start thinking like an investor. And you start

619
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: investing in yourself and thinking about you know, how are

620
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: you going to measure the return in your life? And

621
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 1: for me, I've done well UM as an analyst. You know,

622
00:34:57,360 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: we we we did well. And I said, I really

623
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 1: want to find ways that I can impact and help

624
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,440
Speaker 1: others with with the years that I have left, because

625
00:35:05,680 --> 00:35:07,719
Speaker 1: it could have gone away right then and there. So

626
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,279
Speaker 1: is that what led to Management Leadership for Tomorrow? And

627
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,919
Speaker 1: then old finance tell us about what took place when

628
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:17,359
Speaker 1: you get out of the hospital. Yeah, so I got

629
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: out of the hospital. UM stuck around for a few

630
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,400
Speaker 1: more months at at the firm that I was working UM,

631
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: and then decided to do some other things and and

632
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: that included UM doing some work with small and medium

633
00:35:29,160 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: sized businesses providing some outsourced CFO type of service UM

634
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: to really understand how some of these small businesses worked.

635
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: An organization that I looked at doing some work with

636
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: with Management Leadership for Tomorrow and John Rice and the

637
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 1: team and MLT do a great job. UM. They have

638
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: absolutely moved the needle and changed the trajectory for thousands

639
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: of UM, Black, Latino and Native American students. Over twenty

640
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: plus years, uh knew John a little bit and knew

641
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:58,440
Speaker 1: about the work that he had done. I had written

642
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: recommendations for or mintyes of mine into that program UM,

643
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: and John asked me to come out and you know,

644
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 1: can you help raise some money right running business development?

645
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: And for me that was a step away from the

646
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 1: industry UM. And what I recognized is I got tremendous

647
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: fulfillment out of seeing young people that were, you know,

648
00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: ten twenty years younger than myself, but helping them get

649
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: to the next level, helping give them the opportunities that

650
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: that woman gave me from Goldman when she said here's

651
00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 1: the path you should think about taking. Quite quite interesting.

652
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 1: I'm Barry Ritults. You're listening to Masters in Business on

653
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Radio. We're talking to Marcus Shaw. He is the

654
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: CEO of alt Finance, a firm which seeks to increase

655
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: diversity across alternative asset management firms. So we've been talking

656
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:53,759
Speaker 1: earlier about UM, the lack of recruiting and the lack

657
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: of diversity historically on Wall Street, but let's talk about

658
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 1: the other side. You you often speak to gups of

659
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: smart college kids and you asked them, Hey, what do

660
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:07,760
Speaker 1: you guys know about private equity or credit or venture capital?

661
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 1: What what sort of answer do you get when you

662
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,719
Speaker 1: ask those college students those questions. So, the most interesting

663
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: thing that I've seen in assessing college students and talking

664
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: to them is that students generally have very little knowledge

665
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,960
Speaker 1: of the companies that are operating in the private equity,

666
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: private credit markets, real estate. They're knowing they know some

667
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: of the venture capital firms, because I think venture capital

668
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,320
Speaker 1: has done a great job of pr over the past

669
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 1: ten years or so. I mean, everybody wants to be

670
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: a venture capitalist and an entrepreneur. Um. I always attribute

671
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 1: that to a low interest rate environment where oh no,

672
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: go back to the nineties and venture capitalists were rock stars.

673
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, right. Well, also, though you know

674
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,920
Speaker 1: a period there where you had the FED being a

675
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,400
Speaker 1: little accommodative, right. I think that by nature and by design,

676
00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 1: many of the firms that operate in in the private

677
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 1: equity and private credit space don't want to be known.

678
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: But our students know many of the holding companies, right,

679
00:38:06,640 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: And that's what's really interesting. That they know the publicly

680
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 1: traded companies, they know the private companies, but they don't

681
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 1: know the holding companies for the private companies. You use

682
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: the example and I think it's fascinating. Rihanna partnered with

683
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: a private equity firm for her fashion line. The students

684
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,520
Speaker 1: know who Rihanna is and they know how wildly successful

685
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: she's become, but they don't know who the financers are.

686
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: That's right, and and how do you get them to

687
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 1: look behind the curtain and or under the hood and

688
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: see that that capital is what's driving the business. I

689
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,520
Speaker 1: think the key to that and we we we check

690
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:49,960
Speaker 1: for this when we're interviewing students for our program is

691
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 1: intellectual curiosity, Right, That's the key to being an investor.

692
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 1: Are you always thinking about peeling back another layer to

693
00:38:57,600 --> 00:38:59,680
Speaker 1: the onion? You go in a store, you see a

694
00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: great product? Mm hmm. Where's that product made? Who's the

695
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: company that owns that? If there's several different pieces to

696
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: the product, how many where are they getting the components from?

697
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: Where they sourcing them from? Who owns that company? Who

698
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 1: finances those companies? That's the way we're teaching students to

699
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 1: think because that brings about the type of intellectual curiosity

700
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: that you need to have when ultimately you want to

701
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,359
Speaker 1: put some capital behind a company that you really like.

702
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: So So let's go back to first principles. Why are

703
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 1: companies interested in in diversity? What's in it for them?

704
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: So I think they're There are a number of reasons

705
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 1: why companies are and should be interested in diversity. UM.

706
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 1: We have hundred million students out here UM coming through

707
00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: you know, K through twelve and university system that are

708
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 1: operating at a higher level than we were twenty years ago.

709
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,600
Speaker 1: Students are very smart, independent of their color, their background,

710
00:39:58,640 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 1: their religion, their central owner Asian right. What we know

711
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: is is that students are being educated at tremendous levels today.

712
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,319
Speaker 1: There have so much more access that their intellectual curiosity

713
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,239
Speaker 1: is going to be UM really fueled by a lot

714
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: more information that's delivered in a more equitable way. If

715
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 1: I'm hiring for talent, I want access to all of that.

716
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 1: I want to know the brightest kid from every corner

717
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 1: of the country, boy, girl, gay, straight, black, white, it

718
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,160
Speaker 1: doesn't matter. I want to know that student because that

719
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: student can help me. That student can help me build

720
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 1: and invest in find opportunities and generate alpha and bring

721
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: more clients into my business. And so if I'm a

722
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: senior leader at a company, I think that's the business operative, right,

723
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: I've got to have the brightest talent. The talent that's

724
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,520
Speaker 1: most differentiated and intelligent is also helpful. I think the

725
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: social part of this is that you know, a lot

726
00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 1: of these dollars are public dollars that that companies are managing.

727
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,919
Speaker 1: My mother again, a fifty year school teacher who put

728
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: money into her retirement for fifty years. It would benefit

729
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: her and it would benefit the other teachers and firefighters

730
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: and police officers. To represent diverse communities, to have people

731
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: who are investing their money look like them as well,

732
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,799
Speaker 1: really interesting. So this is more than just a checkbox

733
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: on any list. Companies are actually looking to expand their

734
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 1: diversity and inclusion practices because they see a genuine benefit

735
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 1: to both their decision making process and their businesses. I

736
00:41:38,640 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 1: think that's the obvious answer, um, and that's why with

737
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 1: all finance, you know, this is a long term plan.

738
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: We've got a tenure commitment from our three uh initial

739
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: partner firms, and so this is not about checking the box.

740
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: This is about changing the paradigm um for recruiting talent

741
00:41:55,680 --> 00:42:01,799
Speaker 1: in this industry. So this industry has been notorously laggered

742
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: when it comes to diversity, but there are lots of

743
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 1: other industries. Technology has been accused of having a diversity issue,

744
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: medicine law, pretty much wherever you look. The United States

745
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 1: has its own history with some of its dark pockets.

746
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: What other sectors could benefit from an organization like ALD Finance,

747
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,960
Speaker 1: ALD DOT. What else can we focus on? Yeah, I

748
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: think there are a number of sectors that could benefit

749
00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 1: from this strategy, even sectors like tech that have already

750
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 1: developed some strategies. I think again, we're focused around education, exposure,

751
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,760
Speaker 1: and experience, the three elements that are going into preparing

752
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: students for careers. This is not just about scholarships. Right.

753
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: You give us in the scholarship, but then you don't

754
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 1: really give them access to the people at your firm

755
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,040
Speaker 1: that are going to help that student not only get

756
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: a job at that firm, but feel a sense of belonging,

757
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: right once they get to that firm, so that they

758
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: maximize their individual output. That's what you're trying to go for. Right.

759
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: I'll tell you a story about a student. So we

760
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:09,919
Speaker 1: have a student in our program, and when you talk

761
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: about counseling and coaching, it was a phenomenal story. A student,

762
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: very bright student who had the ability to graduate in

763
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: three years and worked last summer at at a fairly

764
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,399
Speaker 1: reputable consulting company. And I asked a student, I said,

765
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:26,440
Speaker 1: why are you in a hurry to graduate? You've got

766
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: a students, got a pretty good scholarship package. Student comes

767
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,720
Speaker 1: from a background where you know, he's having to support

768
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,319
Speaker 1: families still at home. I mean, you know, a tough situation,

769
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: and he wanted to get out in the workplace where

770
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 1: he can earn I said, trust me, if you stay

771
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,719
Speaker 1: for your full four years, you'll have the opportunity through

772
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: this program to get access to a career in alternatives.

773
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,040
Speaker 1: You have a great opportunity. Last summer you'll come out.

774
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: You could make two x, even three X if you

775
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,799
Speaker 1: stay and pursue this opportun any alternatives. So the young

776
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:06,320
Speaker 1: man stayed, had multiple opportunities selected one. But here's here's

777
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 1: the real power of the network. As he's making his

778
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:12,880
Speaker 1: decision to which role he's going to take, and you know,

779
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 1: at one of three mega funds, he calls up his mentor,

780
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: who is not at one of the firms that he

781
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: has an offer from, and he says, well, what do

782
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: you think I should do. In the course of that conversation,

783
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 1: not only does he get guides from the mentor. The

784
00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:30,799
Speaker 1: mentor connects him with another gentleman who used to work

785
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,319
Speaker 1: at one of the firms in the same group that

786
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: he was going to. Now he has a decision that

787
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: he's made that's been informed by two people that he

788
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: did not know a year ago dinner table, and we

789
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:49,320
Speaker 1: will we will take those conversations for granted. If, especially

790
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,239
Speaker 1: someone grown up in a New York area where you

791
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: know people who work in finance or people's parents were

792
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 1: in finance, that network just doesn't develop elsewhere without focus

793
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:03,719
Speaker 1: exposure to it. That's right, that's really intriguing. So you

794
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: were a Bank of America a decade ago, you let

795
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,319
Speaker 1: it uh, you had some important teams you worked with,

796
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,359
Speaker 1: and you led some groups. How do you see Wall

797
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 1: Street having changed over the past ten or twenty years?

798
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,479
Speaker 1: Were the signs on the on the road that things

799
00:45:19,520 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 1: were getting better? Were they ripe for moving the right direction?

800
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: Or is Wall Street just calcified and needed to really

801
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: be shaken up? Well, Barry, I think that question really

802
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 1: highlights something that's that's amazing to me. Number One, that

803
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: I've been in this business, you know, a long time

804
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 1: goes by very fast, And Number two. How much things change,

805
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: you know, in a fairly short amount of time. You know,

806
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:51,360
Speaker 1: when I started my career in finance, I was the

807
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: only black person in in my group, in my division. Okay, Um,

808
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 1: another young woman came shortly after. We had a great relationship.

809
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: In fact, she's been a lifelong friend and I, you know,

810
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,240
Speaker 1: was a mentor to her. And um, was that something

811
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 1: that was very consistent. You were the only black guy

812
00:46:07,840 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 1: working at the other shops you worked at, or at

813
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 1: least the only person in the department. Well, um, for

814
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: a couple for a couple of firms that I also

815
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: did work at a minority own firm UM down in

816
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 1: North Carolina, And and that was it was refreshing. I mean,

817
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,960
Speaker 1: I actually, you know, some of the brightest people that

818
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,839
Speaker 1: I ever worked with, and much of my investment philosophy

819
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:30,440
Speaker 1: and the thesis the way I think about investing was

820
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 1: developed there amongst an incredibly diverse group of investors who had,

821
00:46:36,320 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: you know, tremendous experience and success. Really intriguing. So given

822
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: that you were at some big firms early tens, you know,

823
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: what what did you see? What was what was it

824
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 1: that led Wall Street to finally being ripe to accept changes.

825
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:59,440
Speaker 1: I think there is an inevitable pressure from society that

826
00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 1: helps drive change. And I think Wall Street, while we

827
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: talk about it in this compartmentalized concept of it's Wall Street,

828
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: it's in New York, it's you know, the bull down

829
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: on Wall Street, right, and it's it's the movies that

830
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 1: we see in reality, the funds that Wall Street is managing,

831
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 1: the capital that it's managing, it's coming from all over

832
00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: the country. It's coming from people that look like me,

833
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:28,440
Speaker 1: It's coming from people that look like you. It's coming

834
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,760
Speaker 1: from people that look like our parents and our children.

835
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: So at the end of the day, and I think

836
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: we saw this in two thousand and eight, I think

837
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,000
Speaker 1: we saw it again during COVID that the end of

838
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: the day, these companies are accountable to the people, right

839
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: and to the people that are their investors, their LPs

840
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 1: and and entities that their LPs represent um in their clients.

841
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:53,279
Speaker 1: And so I think that what we've evolved into is

842
00:47:53,640 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 1: a more human Wall Street that is more inclusive by nature.

843
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: And I do believe that what we're seeing now right,

844
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: we will continue to see because we'll have people that

845
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,000
Speaker 1: come throughout finance, but also people more senior that are

846
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: at the table and helping make decisions on where and

847
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,319
Speaker 1: how we invest in people, and where are we how

848
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: and where and how we invest in companies. So so

849
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 1: that leads me to um a pretty straightforward question, which is, first,

850
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: how do you measure your own success with all finance?

851
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 1: And second, how do people like oak Tree, Apollo and aries.

852
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: How did they ask you to track uh, your your progress?

853
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 1: What metrics do they look at to say, hey, we're

854
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 1: getting our our money's worth for standing up this company

855
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:45,720
Speaker 1: and giving them a decade long horizon. So I'll address

856
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 1: the ladder first, right. Number one, we had our first

857
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: CYC in September. We started our first cohort of our

858
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: fellowship in January. We now have the second coort. I've

859
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: got seventy five students from eight hbs you use. There

860
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:05,840
Speaker 1: are now building relationships, getting education, getting exposure and ultimately

861
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,439
Speaker 1: getting experience to the alternative investment industry. That is fascinating.

862
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,120
Speaker 1: We've got students in our program that have their first

863
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: full time offer with alternative investment firms that will graduate

864
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 1: in two thousand three and May. So we're already in

865
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 1: a few months really hitting the cover off the ball. UM.

866
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,320
Speaker 1: That's the quantitative element. Right, those are the KPI s

867
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 1: up on the dashboard that are saying, you know, how

868
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 1: many students are are you getting to exposure to these jobs?

869
00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: How many students are getting these jobs? What I also measure,

870
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,839
Speaker 1: and this is who the conversation with students? How many

871
00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 1: students are building confidence, skills and relationships that will help

872
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 1: improve their wealth and economic mobility as they grow. How

873
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,240
Speaker 1: many students are having a conversation around the learning session

874
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,520
Speaker 1: that we do on interest rates and they're calling mom

875
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 1: or dad at home and saying, you know, what is

876
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: your credit card? You know what sort of interest rate

877
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: on your credit card? Did you refile your house? How

878
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,480
Speaker 1: should I think about my student loans? Right? That are

879
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: really taking an active position and the way that they

880
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: think about their personal finance, but also the way they

881
00:50:13,040 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: think about investing. And I hear those conversations and have

882
00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 1: those conversations with students almost on a daily basis, and

883
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,439
Speaker 1: that's what fulfills me and lets me know we're moving

884
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: in the right direction. When I look down the road

885
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: in ten years, I believe that I will have hundreds

886
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,279
Speaker 1: of students that are actively working in alternative investments. But

887
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: I'll have thousands that are knowledgeable and have relationships with

888
00:50:36,480 --> 00:50:39,040
Speaker 1: people in this business and are better off for it.

889
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,080
Speaker 1: So we've been talking a lot about alt investments. Are

890
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:52,280
Speaker 1: there parallel entities to old finance for traditional asset management, investing, banking, stocks, bonds,

891
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: I p o s, etcetera. It seems like there should

892
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 1: be something similar to what you're doing for that space

893
00:50:59,120 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: as well, which arguably is even bigger than alter finance.

894
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: So I think there are some some organizations that have, um,

895
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: you know, been active and in providing similar opportunities for

896
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: students for traditional banking. Right. I mean when you think

897
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 1: about what Reginald Lewis did you know almost thirty years

898
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: ago um and and breaking grounds for for blacks and

899
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: investment banking. Um, I think that we're doing some of

900
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 1: that today in the alternative space. Remember when I have

901
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 1: we had our first group of fellows. We had thirty

902
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: three fellows in our first cohort. So this is January two,

903
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 1: This is just you know a few months ago, right,

904
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,480
Speaker 1: And I asked the students, all right, how many of

905
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 1: you know Morning Stanley Goldman City Group. Everybody raises their hand.

906
00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: They all know what they see, the commercials, they get

907
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: the commercials on on the internet. I asked, how many

908
00:51:54,120 --> 00:51:58,240
Speaker 1: of you know areas of Pollo oak Tree one student,

909
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: so roughly three were sent. These students are brilliant, all

910
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 1: high performers, all strong academic performers. I mean they will

911
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: not fail to get a job. They could get a

912
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: job doing anything. But they did not have the awareness

913
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: of how the pathway to enter one of the most

914
00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: rewarding careers in investing. And that's that That's a key.

915
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: And so when I look at other industries and what

916
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: other organizations are doing, we are squarely focused on helping

917
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,040
Speaker 1: move the needle and the alternative investment space, places where

918
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,399
Speaker 1: people can help do deals, be long term owners. It's

919
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: not about you know, the transactional element of investment banking,

920
00:52:39,520 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 1: right be an owner, a direct owner of a brand

921
00:52:42,840 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: that you know, but you never knew who the holding

922
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: company was. I have seventy five students now that can

923
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: answer that question of what's the pathway? How much larger

924
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: can you expand this to be? So Barry, we will

925
00:52:56,440 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 1: expand the fellowship program ultimately to be a round a

926
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,120
Speaker 1: hundred or a hundred and twenty students in you know,

927
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 1: each year about fourty or so in each class. We

928
00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: are also partnering with the Warden School of University of

929
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania to develop an institute, the Warden Alt Finance Institute,

930
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,920
Speaker 1: which will be an online community and platform providing AGAIN

931
00:53:18,320 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: curriculum and content and community as well as resources to

932
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,320
Speaker 1: help students at any HBCU gain access to AGAIN education,

933
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: exposure and opportunities for experience in the space. And so

934
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,920
Speaker 1: through the institute will be able to scale some of

935
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:36,399
Speaker 1: the best parts of our fellowship, which is a real

936
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: high touch part of our programming, but we'll be able

937
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:42,000
Speaker 1: to scale that to the students that are at HBC

938
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:46,399
Speaker 1: is that we don't partner with directly. Really really quite fascinating.

939
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:49,240
Speaker 1: I know I only have you for a couple of minutes.

940
00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 1: More So before I let you go, I want to

941
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: ask uh the standard questions that I ask all of

942
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 1: my guests, starting with what have you been streaming these days?

943
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 1: What's been keeping you entertained a post lockdown? Yeah, so Barry,

944
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: I would say, I tend to read a lot and

945
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,799
Speaker 1: follow a lot obviously in news channels, UM on finance,

946
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:11,960
Speaker 1: on podcasts. I mean, I love Howard marks the memo

947
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: and I read his his memos that he puts out.

948
00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:17,320
Speaker 1: But I love what he's doing in the podcast format

949
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:19,840
Speaker 1: that he's developed. But I listened to a lot of sports.

950
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:23,239
Speaker 1: I'm a huge Jalen and Jacoby fan. Um. I love

951
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:25,520
Speaker 1: what those guys are doing in terms of sports and

952
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,880
Speaker 1: entertainment and so, uh, you know, probably not as heady

953
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 1: as some of the other answers you get, UM, but

954
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:35,759
Speaker 1: I I love sports talk radio. That's interesting. Tell us

955
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: about some of your early mentors who helped shape your career.

956
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: So you know a couple of the mentors that I had, Um,

957
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 1: there was a woman named Stacy Gorn who hired me

958
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: actually too IBM, And it's amazing to think this is

959
00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: over twenty years ago. Um. Stacy was a long term

960
00:54:57,280 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 1: executive at IBM and has now moved to an resulting firm.

961
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 1: But what she really helped me focus on early in

962
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: my career was continuous improvement. Right. You think about it

963
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: as an engineer a lot, right, kind of the causing

964
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:16,759
Speaker 1: principle right that Toyota used, but personal improvement of yourself? Right,

965
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,879
Speaker 1: how do you continue to develop as a person? If

966
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,280
Speaker 1: you're strong technically, how do you develop into a person

967
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: that people feel comfortable managing? Others and feel comfortable being

968
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: managed by um. And so as I developed into an

969
00:55:29,680 --> 00:55:33,280
Speaker 1: executive and the CEO, I always reflect on those lessons

970
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: that she gave me early on about being vulnerable and

971
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: being coachable, even being coached up right. So having somebody

972
00:55:39,760 --> 00:55:42,520
Speaker 1: that reports to you have the ability to coach you

973
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 1: up on things where you can be more helpful for

974
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,279
Speaker 1: your organization. Uh. You mentioned books and you like to

975
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 1: do a lot of reading. Tell us what some of

976
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:56,319
Speaker 1: your favorites are and what are you're reading now? Yeah? So, Um,

977
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:58,920
Speaker 1: you know a book that I go too often and

978
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:02,479
Speaker 1: I you know you read this, you know, probably once

979
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: every couple of years, is uh Peter Burnsteins against the Gods?

980
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 1: Um kind of. It's just it's it's fascinating to think

981
00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: about this concept of risk and how it's affected us

982
00:56:15,760 --> 00:56:19,800
Speaker 1: since the very beginning of time, right, and then really

983
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: how we have taken risk from something that was deified

984
00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,800
Speaker 1: right kind of this religious concept and turned it into

985
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: an economic tool that we can arbitrage for for personal gain. Unbelievable. Um,

986
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,160
Speaker 1: well written. I love the historical context and bringing it

987
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: into the future. And so that's one um that I

988
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:43,200
Speaker 1: that I go too often I'll tell you a book

989
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 1: that that I want to pick up and um, the

990
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,240
Speaker 1: title here, it's John Max's new book. And I thought

991
00:56:51,239 --> 00:56:54,799
Speaker 1: it's interesting because you know, John is somebody, um that

992
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: I don't know personally, but I've always respected kind of

993
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 1: the way that he organized and ran businesses. And you know,

994
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: it's a note that um, he's dealing. You know, I

995
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: think has talked publicly about the aging process that he

996
00:57:10,560 --> 00:57:14,040
Speaker 1: is going through himself. And uh, I found that particularly

997
00:57:14,160 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 1: endearing because it's something that that I've dealt with in

998
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:21,520
Speaker 1: my family and to recognize that, you know, in this business,

999
00:57:21,520 --> 00:57:26,280
Speaker 1: we're still human and we're not excluded from the human process.

1000
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: And so that's a book. John max new book is

1001
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:30,920
Speaker 1: one that I certainly want to pick up up close

1002
00:57:31,000 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 1: and all. In life Lessons from a Wall Street Warrior

1003
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:37,440
Speaker 1: is that is? That's a hell of a title. Hell

1004
00:57:37,480 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: of a guy. Um, what sort of advice would you

1005
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 1: give to a recent college grad? This is kind of

1006
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:47,520
Speaker 1: a funny question because I asked this to everybody, but

1007
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: essentially I'm asking you a question, which is what old

1008
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:55,720
Speaker 1: finance does. But I'll ask it anyway. What advice do

1009
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,440
Speaker 1: you give to a recent college grad who was interested

1010
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: in a career in either investments or alternative finance. So

1011
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: there are two things that I tell all of our students. UM.

1012
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:11,840
Speaker 1: Number one is a bigger picture and probably pretty simple.

1013
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,160
Speaker 1: You've got to have intellectual curiosity. You can never run

1014
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,480
Speaker 1: out of questions. I mean you you run incredible podcasts.

1015
00:58:18,600 --> 00:58:21,280
Speaker 1: You can never run out of questions. You've always got

1016
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: to have something that you're thinking about in terms of

1017
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,200
Speaker 1: what's the next layer. How can I think about it

1018
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: in a different perspective, How can I put myself in

1019
00:58:29,600 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: somebody else's shoes and think about it? And how does

1020
00:58:32,680 --> 00:58:36,160
Speaker 1: that change the value of what I'm looking at right?

1021
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: I think it's that's critical to being successful as an investor.

1022
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 1: Number two is something that somebody shared with me and

1023
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 1: essentually John Rice, who runs m LT and is a

1024
00:58:46,640 --> 00:58:48,760
Speaker 1: partner and a great friend and and really one of

1025
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 1: the great leaders in the D and I space. Um,

1026
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 1: when you're young and you're bright, you've got to take

1027
00:58:57,040 --> 00:59:00,919
Speaker 1: risk early in your career, and in fact act not

1028
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 1: taking risk is actually the riskiest thing you can do.

1029
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,080
Speaker 1: It's a little bit of a parable, right, but when

1030
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: you're young, you can recover from failure. You don't have

1031
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: that same luxury when you're older. It's so hard to

1032
00:59:14,920 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: appreciate that when you're you know, twenty or twenty one,

1033
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 1: when you're you're afraid of failure, When you're afraid of failure,

1034
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 1: when you should actually be seeking failure. Right. You should

1035
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: not be doing anything when you're twenty two or twenty

1036
00:59:28,960 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: or twenty one that you can't fail it right. Playing

1037
00:59:31,960 --> 00:59:36,560
Speaker 1: it safe is risky. It is risky. That's really interesting.

1038
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,240
Speaker 1: And our final question, what do you know about the

1039
00:59:39,280 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 1: world of investing and old finance today? You wish you

1040
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:45,520
Speaker 1: knew twenty or so years ago when you were really

1041
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 1: exploring the field in its early days. So the biggest

1042
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,400
Speaker 1: thing I would say procedurally that that that I see

1043
00:59:54,400 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: in the investment hiring cycle is that you got be

1044
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: ready for the gig before you get it, which means

1045
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:09,720
Speaker 1: that the recruiting process for alternative investments may start. Even

1046
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 1: if you're going to investment banking as an analyst, it

1047
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:16,320
Speaker 1: may start before you actually start that job. There may

1048
01:00:16,360 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: be people that are reaching out to you trying to

1049
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 1: assess your interests in what you're gonna do after banking,

1050
01:00:22,840 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: and that was you know, I say one of the

1051
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 1: secrets of the industry that you know. I was well

1052
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,520
Speaker 1: into my career before I knew that's how people were

1053
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:33,040
Speaker 1: getting recruited into the industry. And so you gotta have

1054
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,040
Speaker 1: your ear to the ground right. You got to know

1055
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,160
Speaker 1: who's who, where the players are, who you should be

1056
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 1: expecting emails and calls from, and when you get those

1057
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 1: emails and calls, you gotta be ready for it. Really

1058
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 1: really interesting answer. We have been speaking to Marcus Shaw,

1059
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 1: CEO of ult Finance. If you enjoy this conversation, well,

1060
01:00:53,200 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 1: be sure and check out any of the previous four

1061
01:00:55,400 --> 01:00:57,920
Speaker 1: hundreds or so we've done over the past eight and

1062
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:02,480
Speaker 1: a half years. You can find those at iTunes, Spotify, YouTube,

1063
01:01:02,800 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcast from. We love your comments,

1064
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 1: feedback and suggestions right to us at m IB podcast

1065
01:01:10,920 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot net. Sign up for my daily reading

1066
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 1: list at rihults dot com. Follow me on Twitter at dhults.

1067
01:01:18,560 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 1: I would be remiss if I did not thank the

1068
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: crack team that helps put this conversation together each week.

1069
01:01:24,760 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 1: Justin Milner is my audio engineer. Attica val Bron is

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Speaker 1: our project manager. Paris Wold is my producer. Sean Russo

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Speaker 1: is my researcher. I'm Barry Rihults. You've been listening to

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Speaker 1: Masters and Business on Bloomberg radioa