Speaker 1: Off the Record is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of Off the Record.
Speaker 1: My name's Jordan Runtuck. Thanks so much for listening. Our
Speaker 1: latest chapter concerns the rise of Ziggy Stardust, Bowie's breakthrough
Speaker 1: persona that would become arguably his most enduring artistic legacy.
Speaker 1: The androgynous alien poet Messiah took inspiration from various elements
Speaker 1: of David's past interests and present obsessions, ranging from pulpy
Speaker 1: fifty sci fi TV shows to rock and roll burnouts,
Speaker 1: a cult American country act, Eastern philosophies, and an overall
Speaker 1: interest in show business artifice. Ziggy was, as David would
Speaker 1: later say, his grand kitch painting. David developed the concept
Speaker 1: throughout much of nine, but it's fair to say that
Speaker 1: Ziggy Stardust would have turned out quite different without the
Speaker 1: involvement of some new friends he met that August. They
Speaker 1: were an unabashedly outrageous gang of actors and performers from
Speaker 1: Andy Warhol's fact recene in downtown Manhattan. They traveled to
Speaker 1: England to perform Warhol's extremely off Broadway play Pork, The
Speaker 1: groundbreaking avant garde productions shocked audiences by taking aim at
Speaker 1: pretty much every social taboo you could imagine, and maybe
Speaker 1: a few they can. It was innovative, it was funny,
Speaker 1: and it was brave. David loved it, and he loved
Speaker 1: the cast even more. He was entranced by their bold
Speaker 1: attitude and style, an unmissable blend of gritty New York
Speaker 1: Street and gaudy old Hollywood clamor. They appreciated david Zone
Speaker 1: artistic fearlessness and deep interest in theatrical production, dating back
Speaker 1: to his days studying mime under Lindsay Kemp. In short,
Speaker 1: they were kindred spirits. The Port crowd would have a
Speaker 1: marked effect on David's life and career, changing his relationship
Speaker 1: to performance and inspiring him to new creative heights. They
Speaker 1: also had a hand in launching him into the pop stratosphere.
Speaker 1: David's manager, Tony de Freeze, tapped the Warhol Lights to
Speaker 1: head up the New York office of his management company MainMan.
Speaker 1: Though if you had any actual business experience, they improvised. Hey,
Speaker 1: they were performers after all. I'm so thrilled to talk
Speaker 1: to a genuine Warhol superstar and legend of the alternative
Speaker 1: art scene. Ms Cherry Vanilla. A list of her accomplishments
Speaker 1: is practically a podcast series in itself. I highly encourage
Speaker 1: you to check out her two thousand ten memoir Lick Me.
Speaker 1: She's a DJ, an actress, an activist, a poet, and
Speaker 1: a punk rock pioneer whose first backing band, Lady, revolved
Speaker 1: into the Police. After starring in the London production of Pork,
Speaker 1: she was hired to work at Maineman as Bowie's public
Speaker 1: relations manager. Unlike most of her Warhol compatriots, she actually
Speaker 1: had a substantial professional background, having worked in the real
Speaker 1: life Madman world of advertising in the mid sixties. The
Speaker 1: experience would come in handy when promoting David to the world.
Speaker 1: It was she who crafted some of the tall tales
Speaker 1: that surround his legend to this day. For a glorious
Speaker 1: stretch in the early seventies, she and David were friends, lovers,
Speaker 1: and artistic comrades. I'm so excited to share her story
Speaker 1: of how she helped launch the Starman into orbit. I
Speaker 1: was trying to write an introduction for you, and I
Speaker 1: didn't know where to begin. I mean DJ Warhol, superstar Bowie, publicist,
Speaker 1: rock singer, author, artist, I mean I didn't know where
Speaker 1: to start. You know, Um, I really sometimes I mean
Speaker 1: I've med hung out with, had relationships with, you know,
Speaker 1: mental or physical with you know, iconic artists, you know
Speaker 1: Van Gillis and um oh God, going all the way
Speaker 1: back in my life to you know Donnamici when I
Speaker 1: was a child, and Joel Schumacher filmmaker and a artist.
Speaker 1: And but you know, the two that have become so
Speaker 1: iconic are Bowie and Warhol. And I can't believe how
Speaker 1: iconic they've become. They are more than just you know,
Speaker 1: like the greatest artist of our generation. But they've achieved
Speaker 1: this uh stature of changing society in a way and
Speaker 1: giving lots of odd ball kids and artists a whole
Speaker 1: new outlook on life. They've really reached the status. And
Speaker 1: I can't believe I had. You know, this intimacy was
Speaker 1: each of them, you know, with Bowie both mental and physical,
Speaker 1: and with Warhol just kind of mental and you know,
Speaker 1: really mental in both ways. But um you know, I'm
Speaker 1: the garbage man's daughter, you know what I mean. And
Speaker 1: I think the value of my life now that I'm
Speaker 1: seventy seven and I can like really start looking back
Speaker 1: on it is the intimacy I achieved with so many
Speaker 1: of these men. And I'm thinking how because I gave
Speaker 1: up sex at forty and that changed my relationship with men.
Speaker 1: But I think women would love most women would love
Speaker 1: to have mental relationships with men, and I think a
Speaker 1: lot of men, I don't know. It's not as offered
Speaker 1: to women as much as sexual intimacy, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. And I think that's the whole thing with
Speaker 1: the whole groupie ear a thing like what was offered
Speaker 1: to you in the short time you ever got to
Speaker 1: encounter these people. They were going to be in town
Speaker 1: for twenty four hours or something, and that could be it.
Speaker 1: So what was offered was sexual intimacy, And so I
Speaker 1: think as a groupie, you just said, okay, I'll take it,
Speaker 1: because then there'll be that many more hours I'll be
Speaker 1: there to try to have some mental intimacy with him,
Speaker 1: which was so much more valuable, which is what you
Speaker 1: wanted so much more. And then of course creative intimacy
Speaker 1: with other artists. And in my case, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it seemed to be men in a way. I don't
Speaker 1: know why. That was a couple of women here and
Speaker 1: there who I worked with or whatever. But I look
Speaker 1: back at it now and I think that's what I
Speaker 1: was so lucky to have, was that kind of and
Speaker 1: I still have it. And as I said, once I
Speaker 1: gave up sex, I started to have it even more
Speaker 1: because when you're not putting out a sexual vibe, you're
Speaker 1: not scaring men either, you know what I mean, especially
Speaker 1: if you're putting one out in your seventies. God God knows.
Speaker 1: But so, yeah, it's been it's been an interesting trip.
Speaker 1: And I'm looking back at it, like you know these
Speaker 1: days and saying, well, you know, what was my life worth?
Speaker 1: And and there are some people trying to make a
Speaker 1: movie of my life, so they're always asking me those questions,
Speaker 1: you know, and why you and blah blah blah. So
Speaker 1: I'm always thinking about it for them anyway. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't trade it with anybody, really, I don't think so.
Speaker 1: Now I was rereading your book and the path of
Speaker 1: your life is just so incredible. Take it back to
Speaker 1: the very beginning. How did this all start for you?
Speaker 1: Growing up as a little Irish Catholic girl in Queens
Speaker 1: to Madison Avenue and getting involved with the theater of
Speaker 1: the Ridiculous and getting cast in pork. Tell me how
Speaker 1: it all began for you. Well, the Copacabana had a
Speaker 1: big influence on me, because otherwise I wouldn't have known
Speaker 1: the life outside of Queens that I knew my father
Speaker 1: working for the sanitation department. But because my mother was
Speaker 1: a telephone operator where the copa was, um, I got
Speaker 1: to see like glussy, glamorous nightlife and incredible entertainers. When
Speaker 1: I was, you know, six seven years old, my father started,
Speaker 1: you know, letting me watch the shows and everything, and
Speaker 1: that gave me another vision, like a dream life. And
Speaker 1: I couldn't even really say it to my family. Couldn't.
Speaker 1: In my family, Irish Catholic, working class, we nobody called
Speaker 1: themselves an artist, you know. You just didn't say, learn
Speaker 1: how to type, forget about them, or get married, you know.
Speaker 1: So I had to kind of keep it to myself
Speaker 1: in a way. Although I took dance lessons and was
Speaker 1: in all the plays in school and all that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff. But when I graduated high school, I was seventeen.
Speaker 1: It was nineteen sixty one. My parents didn't have the
Speaker 1: money to sent me to college. I certainly wasn't a
Speaker 1: scholarship winner, and so and it was assumed, you know,
Speaker 1: you're just gonna get married, will be a secretary anyway,
Speaker 1: so just get out there and work. Advertising was still
Speaker 1: like a very glamorous field, kind of Doris day Rock
Speaker 1: cousin movie material and stuff and Madison Avenue. So and
Speaker 1: I had a boyfriend in my senior year in high
Speaker 1: school and he was he worked at an ad agency.
Speaker 1: So I got a job there and that was Sullivan
Speaker 1: stuff with Cola and Bellis was my first job. And
Speaker 1: it was fabulous, you know, it was a fabulous world.
Speaker 1: And it was know a cushy job. I mean, my family,
Speaker 1: everybody worked so hard at what they did, and advertising
Speaker 1: was cushy. I mean there was so many coffee breaks
Speaker 1: and long lunches and cocktails at five, the amount of
Speaker 1: hours you put in every day unless you were on
Speaker 1: a TV shoot or something. And there were handsome young
Speaker 1: men and it was kind of a great field. So
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it, and so I kind of moved
Speaker 1: up in it, you know, when when they're an opportunity arose.
Speaker 1: There was a lesbian woman actually who was a producer,
Speaker 1: and I was like a lowly I had a lowly
Speaker 1: job in the radio TV production department, but she was
Speaker 1: leaving and she saw my value and she started training me.
Speaker 1: And when she left, I took her job and I
Speaker 1: became a radio TV producer. And I was like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, a nineteen twenty top. Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: I went to school. I went to the New School
Speaker 1: UM for so sual research at night with Arnald Eagle
Speaker 1: was the teacher. And but I kind of dropped out
Speaker 1: after a while because I was learning so much more
Speaker 1: on the job and that's kind of always how I
Speaker 1: seemed to learn best. And I was loving it. I
Speaker 1: loved the whole you know, radio TV process, mechanical process
Speaker 1: side of it, entertainment side, I loved all of it.
Speaker 1: So that's how I did that, and I stayed. I
Speaker 1: actually had like a full time advertising job for eight years,
Speaker 1: and then you know, as time went on, I got
Speaker 1: interested in theater of the ridiculous, and pretty much I
Speaker 1: was only freelancing for like I would just do a
Speaker 1: TV production job something when I needed the money. But
Speaker 1: I was more already into like theater and music, and
Speaker 1: I had already moved on from advertising, and you know,
Speaker 1: that's how I then started. I was in one little
Speaker 1: play and then Andy warholsa on the in it, and
Speaker 1: when he took Pork to London in ninev one, he
Speaker 1: didn't like the girl who was playing the lead in
Speaker 1: the New York Pork. I wasn't in Pork in New York,
Speaker 1: and so I auditioned for him and I got the
Speaker 1: lead to play the pork in the in the play
Speaker 1: in London, and that's where we met David Bowie and
Speaker 1: you know, on and on from there. So it's quite
Speaker 1: quite an honesty. How did you you first enter David's orbit?
Speaker 1: When you were when you got to England. Well, we
Speaker 1: got a lot of publicity when we went with Pork
Speaker 1: because we were Warhol people, and so we were in
Speaker 1: the newspapers a lot and all of that. And he
Speaker 1: was not yet that famous. He had had space authority,
Speaker 1: but he had three or four albums already that you know,
Speaker 1: just didn't make it. He was he was still playing
Speaker 1: little teeny clubs and stuff like that. So we were
Speaker 1: like unequal footing artistically. In fact, we were like kind
Speaker 1: of bigger than he was at that moment in a way,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. We were we had all
Speaker 1: the publicity and you know, Warhol comes to London. Although
Speaker 1: they ripped just to shreds. But but anyway, so he
Speaker 1: knew of us, and we knew of him because Lee
Speaker 1: Children's kept up a lot with um the press, because
Speaker 1: he took photographs for a lot of rock magazines in
Speaker 1: America and stuff, and he had heard of David Bowie.
Speaker 1: David Bowie had come to America a couple of years
Speaker 1: earlier on like a radio interview tour. He couldn't do
Speaker 1: any gigs because the work permits, but he did like
Speaker 1: a radio tour, so some people knew about him. I
Speaker 1: didn't know about him then. Most people didn't know about him.
Speaker 1: And Tiny Piece and Rolling Stone about him that Lee
Speaker 1: had seen. And we were on our way to rehearsal
Speaker 1: for Pork one day in London and we saw a
Speaker 1: poster for him playing at a little club, the Country Club,
Speaker 1: and so we went to see him that night, Lee Schilder's,
Speaker 1: Jane County and me and it was him on acoustic guitar,
Speaker 1: Rick Wakeman on piano, and Mick Ronson on electric guitar
Speaker 1: and people sat on the floor. It was like, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of a hippie club and it was well, it
Speaker 1: was just past the hippie era, sort of and he
Speaker 1: still had like long blonde hair and more you know, pleaded,
Speaker 1: kind of silky pants and yellow Mary James and I
Speaker 1: an't sure if Hunky Dorry was out already or had
Speaker 1: just been recorded, but they were already writing songs and
Speaker 1: Phyziggie started us, so he was in between that he
Speaker 1: played mostly Hunky Dorry stuff. And she didn't have a
Speaker 1: drummer or a bass player or anything, so I guess,
Speaker 1: and that ziggy stuff hadn't come out yet, so it's
Speaker 1: kind of in that era. And and she was there
Speaker 1: and she did the lights and the sound, and so
Speaker 1: we went up to her and introduced ourselves and said,
Speaker 1: you know, we're in the cast of Andy Warhol's Pork.
Speaker 1: It's called David. I love to meet you, darlings, Lola,
Speaker 1: Lola so and he had written that song, Andy Warhol,
Speaker 1: and so when he did it on stage, he introduced
Speaker 1: us as the cast members and asked us to stand
Speaker 1: up and take about so we did. I popped out
Speaker 1: one tip, which was some gesture I did all through
Speaker 1: the play because I was playing the part of Bridget Pulk,
Speaker 1: Bridget Berlin. And that's how Polk comes from Pork comes
Speaker 1: from Polk. Whatever, And in real life she was always
Speaker 1: like jabbing a needle with speed and right through her
Speaker 1: jeans and popping out one tit. So that was like
Speaker 1: a gesture I did in the play. And so afterwards
Speaker 1: we went to a discotheque together and we all danced
Speaker 1: and hung out, and then they came to see the
Speaker 1: play one night, along with Jannegspie and Tony DeFries, and
Speaker 1: of course they came backstage, and then we all went
Speaker 1: out again and we we hung out and then invited
Speaker 1: us to their house Fatigue, and we'd go out there
Speaker 1: for tea on a Sunday afternoon, and so we all
Speaker 1: became friends in that way. And Pork lasted like a month,
Speaker 1: and then it was supposed to move to the West
Speaker 1: End and we never did, and so we all kind
Speaker 1: of went our separate ways after that. But you know,
Speaker 1: we could see what he could be. You know, he
Speaker 1: was so talented and so charismatic that you know, we
Speaker 1: could see this was a guy we should tell everybody
Speaker 1: about back home, and so we did, and Tony Zanetta
Speaker 1: got to be really good friends with him, maybe even
Speaker 1: better friends than us. More quickly they related, and so
Speaker 1: then in September of seventy two, when Tony DeFries was
Speaker 1: managing David and In in England and decided it was
Speaker 1: time to bring him to America to tour. He hired
Speaker 1: Tony Zanetta to be like the head of main man
Speaker 1: the management company, and Tony basically called me up one day.
Speaker 1: I was living in Connecticut, I think, with the Berkshires.
Speaker 1: He called me up one day and I wasn't working.
Speaker 1: I was probably writing but not earning any money, and
Speaker 1: he said, oh, we could use somebody to answer the phones.
Speaker 1: We just got a little office on fifty Street and
Speaker 1: manotte night. So I said, okay. So I went to
Speaker 1: New York and I, you know, was taking on the
Speaker 1: job supposedly of answering the phones. But you know, I
Speaker 1: had background in first of all, I had my high
Speaker 1: school was like a business school, so I had background
Speaker 1: in all the business machines and proper letter writing and
Speaker 1: all that other kind of stuff. And Tony and the
Speaker 1: other people around Jeffries and David at the time when
Speaker 1: David was still in England, but they didn't that kind
Speaker 1: of sort of practical office experienced and in corporate structure
Speaker 1: that I had known. So all of a sudden I
Speaker 1: was like you know, ordering fax machines and desks and
Speaker 1: typewriters and telephone service and show for service and you know,
Speaker 1: so I was like running the office. And then little
Speaker 1: by little we were adding people to help. And then
Speaker 1: when David, when Tony brought David over for the first tour, Tony,
Speaker 1: Zanetta and Lee Childrens went out on the road with
Speaker 1: him and I at the beginning, I stayed behind to
Speaker 1: run the office and have them check in with me
Speaker 1: and keep everything going. And then eventually I got an
Speaker 1: assistant and I heard somebody and then because Tony Jeffries
Speaker 1: wouldn't let the press talk to David Bowie because he
Speaker 1: kept it like they couldn't get access, so they got
Speaker 1: to talk to me, and uh and since I seem
Speaker 1: to be a knack trail at that, you know, even
Speaker 1: though we didn't have the internet and everything, so I
Speaker 1: didn't even know that much about David back then. I mean,
Speaker 1: it was crazy because everything was going so fast, So
Speaker 1: I just made up a lot of facts when they'd
Speaker 1: asked me things that because truly it was there was
Speaker 1: no time. I mean I was also taken care of,
Speaker 1: like like I would go ahead if they were going
Speaker 1: to go to a certain city. I would go ahead
Speaker 1: by a week or something to that city, and I'd
Speaker 1: get myself on the radio and you know, do interviews
Speaker 1: and stuff so that we could drum up ticket sales.
Speaker 1: So then I would go on to the next city,
Speaker 1: and I would also like do little bibles for them,
Speaker 1: like where the dry cleaner was, where the late night
Speaker 1: bar was, where the best Indian restaurant. What you know.
Speaker 1: I was doing all these little chores, uh, and publicity,
Speaker 1: and then I would go on to the next city.
Speaker 1: But then because I wanted to see all the shows,
Speaker 1: I would fly back to the other city where I
Speaker 1: had just been to catch the show because I didn't
Speaker 1: want to miss a show because you know that that
Speaker 1: was like the most fabulous time. That was ziggy star
Speaker 1: dost time, you know, the most fabulous time. Gorgeous young
Speaker 1: David and gorgeous young Nick. And so I was on planes,
Speaker 1: you know. I remember one day. I was on three
Speaker 1: planes that day, three different cities that day. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: and you know, and I loved it. I loved it.
Speaker 1: I loved it, and I love being able to see
Speaker 1: all the shows. And um, I missed one or two.
Speaker 1: I missed New Orleans. I never got to New Orleans.
Speaker 1: Isn't this funny? I'm still never have been to New Orleans.
Speaker 1: I've got to get there one day. But um, I
Speaker 1: missed a couple of cities here and there. But that's
Speaker 1: mostly how it happened. And then um, from there, you know,
Speaker 1: that was it? Bowie rose like a star and uh
Speaker 1: that we knew he was thinking of all the promotional
Speaker 1: work you were doing and try to hype David. Was
Speaker 1: he a hard sell in nineteen two or do people
Speaker 1: catch on quickly that this was somebody to take notice of? Well,
Speaker 1: thanks to my publicity. The thing is, the thing is
Speaker 1: he came at a certain time when the sexuality look,
Speaker 1: sexuality is always going to grab people. And I didn't
Speaker 1: have I didn't even know how to do PR. I
Speaker 1: knew how to do advertising, but PR for Rock Stop
Speaker 1: R for anybody I never did, it was a little different.
Speaker 1: And I didn't have a strategy. None of us had,
Speaker 1: even DeFries didn't have. He had his own strategy for management.
Speaker 1: But he didn't really have a PR strategy except well
Speaker 1: he did in a way because like he had karate
Speaker 1: clad um uniform bodyguards you know around David. But nobody
Speaker 1: has been trying to get near David, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. And he told the press that David wouldn't
Speaker 1: do any interviews even though they weren't banging down the
Speaker 1: doors for interviews. So yes, he did, he did. I
Speaker 1: shouldn't say that about because he did. We all played
Speaker 1: a part in the pr but on the sexuality, and
Speaker 1: which I knew would get the talk going. You know,
Speaker 1: there was this edge where people wondered was he gayo straight?
Speaker 1: Everybody wondered was he gayo straight? You know, so that
Speaker 1: I knew was like a point to get people talking,
Speaker 1: especially the people I knew in in New York and
Speaker 1: Los Angeles and all that. And so as time went on,
Speaker 1: when he said he was bisexual and and I at
Speaker 1: the same time was saying he was great sex being
Speaker 1: a woman, and I'm so I'm sort of intimating he
Speaker 1: was heatero And then he's saying he's by and then
Speaker 1: somebody else says, uh, he's gay, And so I think
Speaker 1: that helped boost the publicity a lot. And then Tony's
Speaker 1: Tony different his genius which he was at management and
Speaker 1: um and you know, all of us together Lee children
Speaker 1: doing all the photos and Tony another managing the tours,
Speaker 1: and you know, we were actors, so we looked at
Speaker 1: it like improvisation, like we were given a play to play,
Speaker 1: and it was total improv for all of us. And
Speaker 1: in a way that maybe is what made it so
Speaker 1: different and so fresh and so new seeming and stuff,
Speaker 1: because we didn't really know what we were doing. We
Speaker 1: just loved him, believed in him. We're having a ball,
Speaker 1: getting paid hardly any money at all. We were doing
Speaker 1: this for the love of it, which corny as it sounds.
Speaker 1: When you do something for the love of it, that's
Speaker 1: real success, you know. So you know that's the way
Speaker 1: it went. And it was, you know, wonderful, marvelous, incredible
Speaker 1: time in our lives, you know, an incredible time and
Speaker 1: we were young and hot, and you know, we were
Speaker 1: having a ball. So, um, I forgot your question, whatever
Speaker 1: it was you answered it. I just there's a great
Speaker 1: quote you gave it an interview once that I love
Speaker 1: life presents people to me and I say yes or no.
Speaker 1: What made you say yes to David Bowie? What was
Speaker 1: it about him that attracted him to you? Well, first
Speaker 1: of all, I think there's a thing called pheromones and
Speaker 1: aura and a spirit body so I think there's a
Speaker 1: chemical element and a spiritual element in what people like.
Speaker 1: I meet a lot of people, and some people I
Speaker 1: can't remember their name after ten times meeting them, and
Speaker 1: other people, the minute you know you've experienced this too.
Speaker 1: The minute you meet them, like you know, there's something
Speaker 1: this person is going to be in your life. So
Speaker 1: there was that, But of course I didn't meet him
Speaker 1: right away. I saw him on stage the first I
Speaker 1: was in the audience, So the first thing I saw
Speaker 1: was his artistry and his he was just born to
Speaker 1: do it. He was just born to be a rock
Speaker 1: star when he came out on the stage, even though
Speaker 1: he he didn't have all the ziggy look together yet,
Speaker 1: which really helped, you know, him sell himself to the public.
Speaker 1: He was born to be a rock star. You just
Speaker 1: saw it. You knew it. The way he related musically.
Speaker 1: You know, he could play the guitar. He had a
Speaker 1: beautiful voice, His songs had some even humor in them.
Speaker 1: His lyrics were fabulous. His connection with the audience was instant,
Speaker 1: and you could tell everybody just you could hear a
Speaker 1: pin drop in the room and it was just a
Speaker 1: little club. So he already had that aura he already
Speaker 1: had that thing, so that was on stage. So then
Speaker 1: when afterwards when we got to meet him up close,
Speaker 1: you know, the vibration was right there, this vibration of like, yeah,
Speaker 1: this person, I'm I'm not letting this person go. This
Speaker 1: person is going to be in my life, you know,
Speaker 1: And so I can't explain it any other way than that.
Speaker 1: And plus he was so down to earth and friendly
Speaker 1: and funny and easy to meet. It was easy. He
Speaker 1: was easy, He was comfortable. You know, we were comfortable
Speaker 1: with him, and he was comfortable with us, and he
Speaker 1: treated us like equal artists or even you know whatever.
Speaker 1: And I guess, you know, it was just that thing
Speaker 1: that one can't really explain what it was. It was
Speaker 1: just something I knew that, you know, we all knew.
Speaker 1: Although Jane County and Lee they afterwards when everybody talked
Speaker 1: for them, he wasn't rock and roll enough, and so
Speaker 1: they were a little bit like, oh, he's kind of
Speaker 1: a hippie folk singer. But I knew because Mick Ronson
Speaker 1: was going to make a more rock and roll and
Speaker 1: even though I hadn't heard the ziggy stardust stuff yet,
Speaker 1: with guitars and drums and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: You knew that with mc ronson he was going to
Speaker 1: be more electric soon and and that he had to
Speaker 1: go that way in a way to be the rock
Speaker 1: star I envisioned, and so I I saw that immediately,
Speaker 1: and they were like okay. But then of course they
Speaker 1: saw and they saw the other aspect of him, you know,
Speaker 1: the charisma for sure. And I like the guys you
Speaker 1: hung out with her awakeman and Nick Ronson. In fact,
Speaker 1: I thought Nick Ronson was you know, oh my god.
Speaker 1: I was so you know, sexually attracted to Mick more
Speaker 1: than David. But but that's because David had a wife also,
Speaker 1: and um, you know she was there. But but Mick
Speaker 1: I scared to death. I never had sex with McK ronson,
Speaker 1: but I became because I came on so heavy from
Speaker 1: New York with the sexuality. And Mick is is such
Speaker 1: a you know, such a small town boy from Hall.
Speaker 1: I mean, have you ever been to Hall? I have not.
Speaker 1: It's in the very northern tip of the UK, about
Speaker 1: of England rather, and it's really I mean, he was
Speaker 1: a small town boy, you know, and I was coming
Speaker 1: on like, you know, right away, wanting to go to
Speaker 1: bed with him. That night, you know, and that just
Speaker 1: was too much for him. But we became friends, of course,
Speaker 1: and uh and I just adored him, Oh God, I
Speaker 1: adored him. So anyway, Um, yeah, that's that's what I
Speaker 1: So what do you think that that David learned from
Speaker 1: all of you? I feel like you were such a
Speaker 1: huge influence on his life as well as as as
Speaker 1: him on yours. What do you feel like that that
Speaker 1: he got from all of you. It seems like you
Speaker 1: gave him permission in a lot of ways to be
Speaker 1: more himself and confidence and that's what he gave to,
Speaker 1: you know, the world, to two kids who were confused
Speaker 1: about whatever their sexuality or you know, they're being a
Speaker 1: nerd or whatever. But um, first of all, on a
Speaker 1: I don't know, geographic basis, he always wanted to know
Speaker 1: more about New York. I think he liked lou Reid
Speaker 1: and all of that, and he had made that one
Speaker 1: trip to America, and he liked our New York Street
Speaker 1: nous that we would like New York Street urchins, actors
Speaker 1: in the kind of theater, like the kind of theater
Speaker 1: we had been doing in New York was like on
Speaker 1: the same level he was doing in London with Lindsey Kemp.
Speaker 1: You know, it was small theaters, nobody made any money.
Speaker 1: He made your own costumes, and you know, it was
Speaker 1: far out avant garde kind of and so I think
Speaker 1: that interested him that we were like we were kind
Speaker 1: of doing the same thing. I was wasn't mine, his
Speaker 1: was mine, but it was on the same level and
Speaker 1: it was like off off Broadway, and so he wanted
Speaker 1: he wanted information about that, and he wanted to be associated,
Speaker 1: I think with that kind of artistry and theatricality and also, um,
Speaker 1: you know, the American nous of us in a way
Speaker 1: um and you know, on a on a business level,
Speaker 1: like how radio worked in America, how the uh newspapers
Speaker 1: worked Ina Like in England, you know how the newspapers are.
Speaker 1: They're national, so you get you getting one year, you're
Speaker 1: a star in the country. But in America the radio
Speaker 1: and the and the newspapers and stuff are also regional
Speaker 1: or war then, you know, and so you have to
Speaker 1: do it for a lot of different regions, for a
Speaker 1: lot of different types of people in America in each
Speaker 1: city you visit and so forth, and you have to
Speaker 1: learn to relate to a lot of people in different
Speaker 1: ways and stuff, and and our freedom I think are
Speaker 1: are Although we thought we were so free sexually, but
Speaker 1: when we got to England to London, we were We
Speaker 1: met a lot of people and including the Bowies and
Speaker 1: a lot other people who were you know, already way
Speaker 1: free sexually. They just called it kinky over there, you know.
Speaker 1: And but I think the fact that he could be
Speaker 1: himself around us, and if it was sexual, it was sexual,
Speaker 1: and if it was business, it was business. And and
Speaker 1: the fact that we could all play these different roles
Speaker 1: with him, you know, and uh, and yet kind of
Speaker 1: be on his level. Of course, he rose to stardom
Speaker 1: way above any level we ever achieved of stardom, but
Speaker 1: we kind of always stayed on that same thing where
Speaker 1: we were friends on an intimate on many levels, like
Speaker 1: getting back to that intimacy thing of mental intimacy. We
Speaker 1: could exchange ideas, we could understand, you know. I remember
Speaker 1: once I worked I wouldn't say who it was, but
Speaker 1: I did some work once for a famous director and
Speaker 1: I said, what is it you need from me? He said,
Speaker 1: I need somebody who anticipates my needs. And then went, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: that's to say and very nail things to say right,
Speaker 1: and but it got me, you know, on my toes.
Speaker 1: And so in a way, we we had a shorthand
Speaker 1: with each other when it came to show Bisbowie and us,
Speaker 1: you know. And so even if it was like arranging
Speaker 1: the tour bus or you know, make sure his clothes
Speaker 1: came back from the cleaners, or you know, we got
Speaker 1: to do it with you know, fellow artists and friends,
Speaker 1: and and we didn't mind all this practicality that I
Speaker 1: had to go with it. That was just the business
Speaker 1: side of it. So I think he probably appreciated that
Speaker 1: in us, you know, And we never had like big
Speaker 1: egos about it. Like people often say to me now,
Speaker 1: like oh, well, you maye Bowie say this. I said,
Speaker 1: no way. I was part of a team of a
Speaker 1: lot of people. And when you get a lot of
Speaker 1: people together and that their energies all going the same direction,
Speaker 1: that's how you achieve things. And so I was a
Speaker 1: part of it. I would never take big credit like
Speaker 1: I did this. I made him a star in no way.
Speaker 1: So I think it was that like we were all
Speaker 1: in a play together. He was in the place, like
Speaker 1: we lived our lives like in a play. Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: going to play the role of the pr lady now
Speaker 1: and I play the role of a tour manager now
Speaker 1: and a president of may man or whatever Tony's not.
Speaker 1: It was playing and and he was playing the part
Speaker 1: of the rock star, and we all improvised our roles,
Speaker 1: you know. So I think that must have kept him
Speaker 1: interested and excited as us, as much as we were
Speaker 1: interested and excited in him, you know. And then of
Speaker 1: course one day he moved on from us and learned
Speaker 1: things from other people, but we moved on from him also,
Speaker 1: So you know, that's the way it goes in this
Speaker 1: play that you're all performing. Is there a climax for you?
Speaker 1: Is there a moment that really crystallizes everything, that is
Speaker 1: just the golden moment that you hold on to. Oh,
Speaker 1: it was the first time I had sex with him,
Speaker 1: for sure. That's a good more literal climax than I met,
Speaker 1: but very good. Well on the mental climax part, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I tell us a little story in the book and
Speaker 1: it really meant a lot to me. Um, And it
Speaker 1: wasn't any great creative thing we did together or worked out.
Speaker 1: I mean, I really got off on making the TV
Speaker 1: commercials on him for Diamond doggs and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: That was great because I was taking my expertise and
Speaker 1: experience at the time and with very little money making
Speaker 1: you know, TV commercials for him and radio commercials and stuff,
Speaker 1: and that I took great pride in. And but um,
Speaker 1: there was a moment that I loved a lot. And
Speaker 1: it was when we were in London and he was
Speaker 1: doing a show in London. Um, and I was in
Speaker 1: charge of who he was allowed to talk to in
Speaker 1: the press, and everybody wanted an interview. This is when
Speaker 1: he was already had become pretty big. Everybody wanted an interview.
Speaker 1: So I chose, you know, the two or three people
Speaker 1: that we were going to give interviews to, and I
Speaker 1: chose this one guy. And um, he promised me a
Speaker 1: front page picture and story and all that. And uh
Speaker 1: so I promised that to David and and he was
Speaker 1: at sound check the day the paper came out and
Speaker 1: he wasn't on the front page, and uh he had
Speaker 1: about a quarter of a page, a few pages back
Speaker 1: and a photo. And uh, I was mortified because it
Speaker 1: was like I had made him to this interview and uh,
Speaker 1: uh you know, and not that I had any control
Speaker 1: over this person. You never have control when the journalist
Speaker 1: tells you that's what's gonna happen unless you get it
Speaker 1: in writing or something in contract. But um, so I
Speaker 1: had to walk down to the stage, walking down the
Speaker 1: center aisle of the empty theater where they was sound checking,
Speaker 1: and go up to the stage and call him to
Speaker 1: the edge of the stage and show him the paper
Speaker 1: and say, you know, I'm really sorry, David, you know.
Speaker 1: And I love that moment because he could have you know,
Speaker 1: I I've seen other stars could slap you in the
Speaker 1: face and say, you idiot, why did you ever let
Speaker 1: me bother? But he just went, don't worry about it, Cherry,
Speaker 1: It's okay. Like that, And the way he took it
Speaker 1: so easily, and so the way he recognized already that
Speaker 1: this was not the biggest thing in life. Like when
Speaker 1: you're a big rock star, you know everything you do
Speaker 1: you think it's the big This this is what I've
Speaker 1: experienced with other big stars anyway. They think everything they
Speaker 1: do is big and if you don't get it right,
Speaker 1: you should be fired or slapped in the face, or
Speaker 1: you punished or you know what I mean, They get ego.
Speaker 1: The fact that he just was took it so he sids, Okay,
Speaker 1: is if like he didn't say, it's no big deal.
Speaker 1: But it's just like, this is not the end of
Speaker 1: the world, Cherry, It's just a newspaper, you know. I
Speaker 1: who loved that about him. And then, of course, about
Speaker 1: a couple of hours or an hour or two, I
Speaker 1: forgot how long later, a special edition of the newspaper
Speaker 1: was put out and he was on the cover and
Speaker 1: it was all about him. So yeah and so, and
Speaker 1: then I was able to go to him and like
Speaker 1: I had scored. Now he could have like slapped me
Speaker 1: in the face earlier in the day and then I'd
Speaker 1: come back to him with this and I'd be like,
Speaker 1: he'd have to have his tail between his legs, but
Speaker 1: instead his attitude just made it also made him so human.
Speaker 1: It was a human moment with him, a very human moment.
Speaker 1: And so that stands out in my mind a lot,
Speaker 1: that moment. So um, yeah. But the night I had
Speaker 1: sex with him the first time was also really great.
Speaker 1: Do you can care to elaborate anymore on that or
Speaker 1: I did in my book. I did in my book. Um,
Speaker 1: it was just beautiful. I mean. The thing about David
Speaker 1: is that when you were with him and he was
Speaker 1: giving you his attention. If he had decided, you know
Speaker 1: that that time was dedicated to you. He was really
Speaker 1: giving you his attention. Whether that's just what great actor
Speaker 1: he is. It was um, but you really felt like
Speaker 1: you were making love. It wasn't just when you were
Speaker 1: the pr lady and working with him and you happened
Speaker 1: to be in the same hotel with him that night,
Speaker 1: and he hadn't picked up any other girl, so come on,
Speaker 1: let's go to bed, Jerry. I mean, um, it just um.
Speaker 1: He made you really feel like he wanted to make
Speaker 1: love to you and and that he adored it and
Speaker 1: was having a wonderful time. And it was nice. It
Speaker 1: was very um, touching and uh intimate and in in
Speaker 1: in in feelings. Now, if those feelings were genuine or
Speaker 1: he was just a great actor, I don't know, But
Speaker 1: in those moments you don't care because just you know,
Speaker 1: just yeah, baby, you know, I'm having a great time too.
Speaker 1: So it was. It was just very lovely, very lovely,
Speaker 1: and and kind of funny in a way. You go
Speaker 1: back to my book, you can read it because read
Speaker 1: about the bandages. It was kind of funny. But that's
Speaker 1: all I'll say. Um, but uh. And there were a
Speaker 1: couple of other sexual times with him in my apartment
Speaker 1: or something, but um, they were all wonderful. They were wonderful.
Speaker 1: He was great too, you know the other times that
Speaker 1: stand out, which I did write in the book about
Speaker 1: a lot with him. When I had this apartment on
Speaker 1: twentieth Street, after I didn't work for main men anymore.
Speaker 1: Bowie was in his coke period and I had hooked
Speaker 1: him up with Norman Fischer, who was the biggest best
Speaker 1: coke dealer in New York and everything. And he was
Speaker 1: at that point just doing tons of coke, drinking only milk,
Speaker 1: not eating anything skinny as a rail that's in white duke.
Speaker 1: And he was like sort of getting beyond the rocks
Speaker 1: with Tony Differ, like it was coming to and he
Speaker 1: needed somebody to talk to a lot, And so he
Speaker 1: would come over to my loft I had on Twentieth
Speaker 1: Street between nine and ten. He'd come over there, and
Speaker 1: I didn't do coke. Rarely did I ever do coke.
Speaker 1: I was a pothead, And so we would stay up
Speaker 1: all night and not having sex. Once in a while
Speaker 1: we had sex, but rarely. Mostly it was just talking
Speaker 1: and and he would do his coke all night and
Speaker 1: and and drink his milk, and I would drink coffee
Speaker 1: and smoke pot and stay up talking to him all night.
Speaker 1: And and of course he talked to me about, you know,
Speaker 1: his feelings about you know, because Tony it had come
Speaker 1: to that point where he felt, you know, giving ton
Speaker 1: wasn't cool. I don't know, that was starting to have things,
Speaker 1: although I think it all turned out all right in
Speaker 1: the end anyway. But so he'd talked about that, about
Speaker 1: main ma'am, what was going on about things. But really
Speaker 1: we talked about you know, Alistair Crowley and Marilyn and
Speaker 1: magic and psychedelics and spirituality. And he knew history a
Speaker 1: lot better than igent, So he would talk about Hitler
Speaker 1: and a lot of things. He'd educate me on a
Speaker 1: lot of things and other things I knew about, and
Speaker 1: you know, um astrology and witchcraft and you know, things
Speaker 1: like that. So they were wonderful times with him, because
Speaker 1: you know, he was on coke, so he would just
Speaker 1: go on and on and on out into the stratosphere
Speaker 1: with his mind, you know. And I was sitting there
Speaker 1: smoking my pots, so everything just seemed magical and fabulous
Speaker 1: to me, and and I that they were wonderful moments.
Speaker 1: They were wonderful moments, and I didn't work for him anymore.
Speaker 1: So I had now had the experience of meeting him
Speaker 1: as a fellow artist and a friend, and then being
Speaker 1: a worker for him, and now back to being a
Speaker 1: friend and artist fellow artists kind of friend with him.
Speaker 1: So I didn't have the rules that maybe I had
Speaker 1: to play by or set for myself when I worked
Speaker 1: for him and stuff. So it was kind of a
Speaker 1: freeing of our relationship in a way too. It was like,
Speaker 1: and you know, while I worked for him, I couldn't
Speaker 1: say anything bad or negative about Maine Man or uh
Speaker 1: and about some people we worked with it. But now
Speaker 1: I was just a friend, so you know, those things,
Speaker 1: the rules weren't there for me anymore. So that was
Speaker 1: wonderful moments. Yeah, did you follow David's career after you
Speaker 1: stopped working with him at Maine Man. Isn't it fantastic
Speaker 1: how he did his whole death and it was an
Speaker 1: artist right to the end. And god, I just I
Speaker 1: couldn't believe what he did with that last album, Oh,
Speaker 1: with Black Star, I mean it's supernatural almost, I mean
Speaker 1: not almost. I think it is supernatural how he he
Speaker 1: reorchestrated that on on his terms. It's it's I know,
Speaker 1: and it's just I can't put it on without you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've only listened to the album twice because I just
Speaker 1: break down crying when he's saying, look at me, I'm
Speaker 1: in Heaven. I'm like, oh, you know, it's just too much.
Speaker 1: It's just too much, you know. I tried to sing
Speaker 1: Heroes on stage one night and a little show we
Speaker 1: did in Hollywood, and I broke down crying on stage.
Speaker 1: I couldn't even sing it. It was just it was
Speaker 1: it was only about three weeks after he died. It
Speaker 1: was just too fresh, I guess, and I hadn't really cried. Uh,
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden it all hit me, you know.
Speaker 1: But what an iconic life, right to Lee end doing
Speaker 1: that album and that play and everything. I never got
Speaker 1: to see the play. Did you see the play? I
Speaker 1: wish I did. I would have loved it. If I
Speaker 1: couldn't get tickets, Ah, he didn't know me, then I
Speaker 1: couldn't have got I probably couldn't have got your tickets anyway,
Speaker 1: because I didn't really have the relationship with him for
Speaker 1: the last I don't know, thirty years or something. Though
Speaker 1: when I did, um, I did ask for There was
Speaker 1: a you know, I used to do those My World
Speaker 1: columns by David Bowie from the magazine. So when somebody
Speaker 1: wanted to publish a book, hat Chet Publishing in Paris
Speaker 1: wanted to publish a book of them, and um, they
Speaker 1: they put they sent me this this sample book and
Speaker 1: um whatever you call that first book you get and
Speaker 1: they had used what Bowie wrote on his website about
Speaker 1: them as like a forward. And I said, well, you
Speaker 1: can't just do this, you have to ask permission. I mean,
Speaker 1: surely that's his copyright. He wrote that on it. So
Speaker 1: they said, oh, will you ask him? And I hadn't,
Speaker 1: you know, spoken to him in all those years, and
Speaker 1: I didn't speak to him then, but I must say
Speaker 1: I called his manager of the time, and within twenty
Speaker 1: four hours they called back and said, oh sure, he said,
Speaker 1: go ahead, I use them. So that was, you know, lovely,
Speaker 1: although I wasn't you know, I wish that I had
Speaker 1: had more contact with them over the years, but you know,
Speaker 1: people move on, They move on. I love those those
Speaker 1: those pieces you wrote. They're so fun, they're so well
Speaker 1: written that I love when you put in like my
Speaker 1: my incredible publicist Jerry Vanelle, I love when you put
Speaker 1: the whole shout outs to yourself. And you know, there
Speaker 1: was no I didn't. I wasn't even very much of
Speaker 1: an accomplished writer in any way yet, And there was
Speaker 1: no time. I wrote those in the back of limos
Speaker 1: and taxi said. There was no editing, there was no
Speaker 1: nothing that you know, they were just as fast as
Speaker 1: they could. I could write them down and give them
Speaker 1: to a type of store, type them up myself if
Speaker 1: I was in the office, and just make up things.
Speaker 1: And sometimes i'd have like a phone conversation with him
Speaker 1: and try to find out what he was doing that
Speaker 1: week and incorporated. But half the time I just had
Speaker 1: to make them up. But but yeah, they were fun
Speaker 1: and they were just you know, they were for a
Speaker 1: teenage girl audience, you know, not preteens. Actually that magazine
Speaker 1: was aimed at like eleven twelve year old girls. What
Speaker 1: a great audience to build, right, So, speaking of writing
Speaker 1: your memoir, Lick Me is amazing. It's filled with so
Speaker 1: many fascinating stories, and it's amazing how candid and intimate
Speaker 1: you are, like you really went there and got into
Speaker 1: so many tough and vulnerable moments. I really loved the book. God,
Speaker 1: I wish I had a million more fans like you.
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't sell that many books, you know,
Speaker 1: And but then again I don't try. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: it's funny because publicity was, you know, like sex to
Speaker 1: me in the early days. I I loved doing publicity
Speaker 1: for other people and myself. But you know, I kind
Speaker 1: of it's almost like when I gave up sex, I
Speaker 1: gave up publicity. I kind of like went the other way. Like,
Speaker 1: you know, I kind of hide now, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. I don't have to hide because I can
Speaker 1: be totally unrecognizable in the world, you know, which I
Speaker 1: love that. And so it's funny. I'm like, not that
Speaker 1: I'm anti publicity, but I love to do interviews like
Speaker 1: this once in a while. But um, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't like my friend Pamela Dabars, who got me the
Speaker 1: the agent to do the book. She really milks her books.
Speaker 1: I mean, she writes one book after another, and then
Speaker 1: she goes on and she has she teaches women's writing classes,
Speaker 1: and she goes on these things where you sign pictures
Speaker 1: of yourself and sell them for ten dollars and bless
Speaker 1: her heart. I really admire her for doing that. But
Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, the book was done, it's done.
Speaker 1: It's out there now though some people are trying to
Speaker 1: make a movie of it or a TV show. So
Speaker 1: now my energy is going there. I'm trying to, um,
Speaker 1: give them ideas, help them, um and uh so we'll
Speaker 1: see what happens. That is so cool. How's that going? Well?
Speaker 1: You know, that could take forever. The guy who's trying
Speaker 1: to do it, he's produced one movie, freak show. Did
Speaker 1: youivverssy Freak Show? Yeah, with Bette Midler's he Brian Raybin.
Speaker 1: He he ran Club Cherry. He's famous event person in
Speaker 1: rock and roll. He had Club Cherry and oh god,
Speaker 1: he just had a Georgio at the Standard and for
Speaker 1: years and and he um he I gave him the
Speaker 1: rights to sell it. Now I know how Hollywood goes.
Speaker 1: And I think he has great tenacity and he's the
Speaker 1: person I would want to be the producer because he
Speaker 1: he really gets me, and he knows he lived through
Speaker 1: the whole thing, and he really gets the whole period.
Speaker 1: And and um he's a little younger than me, but
Speaker 1: he gets it all. He's got incredible tenacity and incredible
Speaker 1: connections because all those years that he ran those clubs
Speaker 1: and did those events, you know, he was in charge
Speaker 1: of you know, who got behind the velvet rope, who
Speaker 1: got on the list. So a lot of people who
Speaker 1: he recognized something in back then they were young fledglings
Speaker 1: since became agents, writers, producers, directors, you know what I mean, stars,
Speaker 1: actors in Hollywood, rock stars started. So he has a
Speaker 1: lot of great connections with the people I like in
Speaker 1: that in that whole world. I love his circle of
Speaker 1: people that he's recognized, like Norman Reads and you know
Speaker 1: people I find really I don't know, just on a
Speaker 1: level of artistry that I appealed to me, and so
Speaker 1: he's out there doing it now. I know it'll get
Speaker 1: done one day. I would love it to happen before
Speaker 1: I die, so I could go, you know, enjoy premiers
Speaker 1: and all that kind of stuff. But it it might
Speaker 1: not get done to lefter I die, And I don't
Speaker 1: know if they'll get to make it a movie or
Speaker 1: a TV series. I don't know. They're they're trying, and
Speaker 1: they're hooking up with I talked to I'm not allowed
Speaker 1: to name her yet, but I took to one producer
Speaker 1: via Zoom via a zoom meeting, and she's pretty big.
Speaker 1: She's produced a lot of TV stuff and movies, and
Speaker 1: she's very interested. You know, it's some people don't get
Speaker 1: it that. You know, why was I with all of
Speaker 1: these unbelievable people all my life? You know? Why me?
Speaker 1: Is kind of an interesting story, you know. And I
Speaker 1: don't know. I know they'll find the right people and
Speaker 1: click with them eventually. And this producer she I think
Speaker 1: now they've found the writer who will do what they
Speaker 1: called the Bible, and he's thinking more movie. I think
Speaker 1: it needs to be a TV series because by the
Speaker 1: time you get all those people in there who are famous,
Speaker 1: who I've had something to do with. I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a long movie. But I don't know what.
Speaker 1: I don't care how they do it, and I told
Speaker 1: them I'll help them. I've been like, any time I
Speaker 1: think of a little scene in my head, I sent
Speaker 1: it to them. Nut. I don't think I'm capable really
Speaker 1: of writing the screenplay about myself. I think it needs
Speaker 1: an objective writer in blah blah blah, And I've never
Speaker 1: really written a screenplay except in school and stuff. So um.
Speaker 1: But they asked me if I would like write scenes
Speaker 1: when I think of them and send them to them
Speaker 1: just to kind of give them idea. And I do that,
Speaker 1: and I and like, now they're trying to get to
Speaker 1: the essence of the cell of me, the hook, Like
Speaker 1: what's what's the essence of me that they can sell
Speaker 1: to a network or something. So I'm always trying to
Speaker 1: give them little ideas about that too. Like the intimacy thing.
Speaker 1: That's why I was talking to you about it when
Speaker 1: we first got on, because that's what I had been
Speaker 1: thinking about. What was it about you know, I was
Speaker 1: looking at the Bowie movie and I was thinking, what
Speaker 1: was it about me that would make like a young
Speaker 1: girl now think she would want to have my life?
Speaker 1: Because I wasn't the biggest star in the world. True.
Speaker 1: I wasn't the you know, biggest saint Theresa or scholarship
Speaker 1: scientist or you know whatever. Um. But I think the
Speaker 1: intimacy that I had mentally and sexually with men is
Speaker 1: of interest to young women now because I think women
Speaker 1: want to have that intimacy with men and be able
Speaker 1: to have that. It doesn't have to just be sexual
Speaker 1: between a woman and a man. It's great when you
Speaker 1: can collaborate on things and write songs together, and you know,
Speaker 1: do radio interviews together, and you know, having that kind
Speaker 1: of without you know, the threat that there has to
Speaker 1: be sex at the at the end of the night
Speaker 1: from either the man or the woman. That's it's a
Speaker 1: new kind of intimacy. I think it's kind of cool,
Speaker 1: so anyway, But they will make it one day. I
Speaker 1: truly believe in my heart they will get this thing made.
Speaker 1: But I hope I'm alive because I want to go
Speaker 1: to the parties. Off the record of the production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. If you liked what you heard, please
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