WEBVTT - Bonus Episode: Warhol Superstar Cherry Vanilla Opens Up About Her Friendship with David Bowie and Helping Launch Ziggy Stardust 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.239 Off the Record is a production of I Heart Radio. 0:00:04.320 --> 0:00:07.560 Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of Off the Record. 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.840 My name's Jordan Runtuck. Thanks so much for listening. Our 0:00:11.920 --> 0:00:16.080 latest chapter concerns the rise of Ziggy Stardust, Bowie's breakthrough 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:20.200 persona that would become arguably his most enduring artistic legacy. 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:24.599 The androgynous alien poet Messiah took inspiration from various elements 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:28.960 of David's past interests and present obsessions, ranging from pulpy 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.760 fifty sci fi TV shows to rock and roll burnouts, 0:00:32.760 --> 0:00:36.800 a cult American country act, Eastern philosophies, and an overall 0:00:36.840 --> 0:00:41.080 interest in show business artifice. Ziggy was, as David would 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:45.760 later say, his grand kitch painting. David developed the concept 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.120 throughout much of nine, but it's fair to say that 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:51.960 Ziggy Stardust would have turned out quite different without the 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:55.120 involvement of some new friends he met that August. They 0:00:55.160 --> 0:00:58.760 were an unabashedly outrageous gang of actors and performers from 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.120 Andy Warhol's fact recene in downtown Manhattan. They traveled to 0:01:03.160 --> 0:01:07.640 England to perform Warhol's extremely off Broadway play Pork, The 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:11.600 groundbreaking avant garde productions shocked audiences by taking aim at 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.840 pretty much every social taboo you could imagine, and maybe 0:01:14.840 --> 0:01:18.120 a few they can. It was innovative, it was funny, 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:22.080 and it was brave. David loved it, and he loved 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:25.400 the cast even more. He was entranced by their bold 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.759 attitude and style, an unmissable blend of gritty New York 0:01:28.840 --> 0:01:33.080 Street and gaudy old Hollywood clamor. They appreciated david Zone 0:01:33.160 --> 0:01:37.280 artistic fearlessness and deep interest in theatrical production, dating back 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:40.880 to his days studying mime under Lindsay Kemp. In short, 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:44.120 they were kindred spirits. The Port crowd would have a 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:47.560 marked effect on David's life and career, changing his relationship 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:51.280 to performance and inspiring him to new creative heights. They 0:01:51.280 --> 0:01:54.040 also had a hand in launching him into the pop stratosphere. 0:01:54.880 --> 0:01:58.400 David's manager, Tony de Freeze, tapped the Warhol Lights to 0:01:58.480 --> 0:02:01.400 head up the New York office of his management company MainMan. 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.560 Though if you had any actual business experience, they improvised. Hey, 0:02:06.600 --> 0:02:10.160 they were performers after all. I'm so thrilled to talk 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.400 to a genuine Warhol superstar and legend of the alternative 0:02:13.520 --> 0:02:16.919 art scene. Ms Cherry Vanilla. A list of her accomplishments 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.520 is practically a podcast series in itself. I highly encourage 0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:23.079 you to check out her two thousand ten memoir Lick Me. 0:02:23.840 --> 0:02:27.360 She's a DJ, an actress, an activist, a poet, and 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.919 a punk rock pioneer whose first backing band, Lady, revolved 0:02:30.919 --> 0:02:34.520 into the Police. After starring in the London production of Pork, 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:37.320 she was hired to work at Maineman as Bowie's public 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:41.480 relations manager. Unlike most of her Warhol compatriots, she actually 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:44.800 had a substantial professional background, having worked in the real 0:02:44.880 --> 0:02:48.520 life Madman world of advertising in the mid sixties. The 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:51.520 experience would come in handy when promoting David to the world. 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.120 It was she who crafted some of the tall tales 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.480 that surround his legend to this day. For a glorious 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:01.120 stretch in the early seventies, she and David were friends, lovers, 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:04.919 and artistic comrades. I'm so excited to share her story 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:12.200 of how she helped launch the Starman into orbit. I 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.160 was trying to write an introduction for you, and I 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:19.040 didn't know where to begin. I mean DJ Warhol, superstar Bowie, publicist, 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.720 rock singer, author, artist, I mean I didn't know where 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:26.560 to start. You know, Um, I really sometimes I mean 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:31.520 I've med hung out with, had relationships with, you know, 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:35.800 mental or physical with you know, iconic artists, you know 0:03:35.960 --> 0:03:39.560 Van Gillis and um oh God, going all the way 0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.320 back in my life to you know Donnamici when I 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:47.480 was a child, and Joel Schumacher filmmaker and a artist. 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:51.600 And but you know, the two that have become so 0:03:51.840 --> 0:03:55.640 iconic are Bowie and Warhol. And I can't believe how 0:03:55.840 --> 0:03:59.680 iconic they've become. They are more than just you know, 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:04.560 like the greatest artist of our generation. But they've achieved 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:09.200 this uh stature of changing society in a way and 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:14.200 giving lots of odd ball kids and artists a whole 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:18.280 new outlook on life. They've really reached the status. And 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:22.160 I can't believe I had. You know, this intimacy was 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.840 each of them, you know, with Bowie both mental and physical, 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:29.359 and with Warhol just kind of mental and you know, 0:04:29.680 --> 0:04:34.360 really mental in both ways. But um you know, I'm 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.839 the garbage man's daughter, you know what I mean. And 0:04:37.760 --> 0:04:42.039 I think the value of my life now that I'm 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.920 seventy seven and I can like really start looking back 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:50.000 on it is the intimacy I achieved with so many 0:04:50.040 --> 0:04:53.479 of these men. And I'm thinking how because I gave 0:04:53.560 --> 0:04:57.560 up sex at forty and that changed my relationship with men. 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.800 But I think women would love most women would love 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.520 to have mental relationships with men, and I think a 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.080 lot of men, I don't know. It's not as offered 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.839 to women as much as sexual intimacy, you know what 0:05:10.880 --> 0:05:13.479 I mean. And I think that's the whole thing with 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:16.920 the whole groupie ear a thing like what was offered 0:05:16.960 --> 0:05:19.640 to you in the short time you ever got to 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.000 encounter these people. They were going to be in town 0:05:22.040 --> 0:05:24.560 for twenty four hours or something, and that could be it. 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.720 So what was offered was sexual intimacy, And so I 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.920 think as a groupie, you just said, okay, I'll take it, 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.320 because then there'll be that many more hours I'll be 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:38.200 there to try to have some mental intimacy with him, 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:40.520 which was so much more valuable, which is what you 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:45.560 wanted so much more. And then of course creative intimacy 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.479 with other artists. And in my case, I don't know, 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:51.720 it seemed to be men in a way. I don't 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:54.080 know why. That was a couple of women here and 0:05:54.120 --> 0:05:58.800 there who I worked with or whatever. But I look 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:00.520 back at it now and I think that's what I 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:04.320 was so lucky to have, was that kind of and 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.240 I still have it. And as I said, once I 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:10.200 gave up sex, I started to have it even more 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.280 because when you're not putting out a sexual vibe, you're 0:06:13.320 --> 0:06:16.360 not scaring men either, you know what I mean, especially 0:06:16.360 --> 0:06:20.719 if you're putting one out in your seventies. God God knows. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:26.200 But so, yeah, it's been it's been an interesting trip. 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:29.200 And I'm looking back at it, like you know these 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:31.720 days and saying, well, you know, what was my life worth? 0:06:31.800 --> 0:06:34.960 And and there are some people trying to make a 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.039 movie of my life, so they're always asking me those questions, 0:06:38.120 --> 0:06:41.279 you know, and why you and blah blah blah. So 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:45.160 I'm always thinking about it for them anyway. Yeah, I 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:48.560 wouldn't trade it with anybody, really, I don't think so. 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:52.359 Now I was rereading your book and the path of 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:54.719 your life is just so incredible. Take it back to 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:56.720 the very beginning. How did this all start for you? 0:06:56.760 --> 0:06:59.200 Growing up as a little Irish Catholic girl in Queens 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:02.159 to Madison Avenue and getting involved with the theater of 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:04.600 the Ridiculous and getting cast in pork. Tell me how 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.719 it all began for you. Well, the Copacabana had a 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:11.200 big influence on me, because otherwise I wouldn't have known 0:07:11.320 --> 0:07:15.040 the life outside of Queens that I knew my father 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:17.800 working for the sanitation department. But because my mother was 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.600 a telephone operator where the copa was, um, I got 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:28.440 to see like glussy, glamorous nightlife and incredible entertainers. When 0:07:28.520 --> 0:07:31.400 I was, you know, six seven years old, my father started, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.560 you know, letting me watch the shows and everything, and 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:40.720 that gave me another vision, like a dream life. And 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:44.120 I couldn't even really say it to my family. Couldn't. 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:50.320 In my family, Irish Catholic, working class, we nobody called 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.360 themselves an artist, you know. You just didn't say, learn 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:59.240 how to type, forget about them, or get married, you know. 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.840 So I had to kind of keep it to myself 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.920 in a way. Although I took dance lessons and was 0:08:04.960 --> 0:08:07.560 in all the plays in school and all that kind 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:12.920 of stuff. But when I graduated high school, I was seventeen. 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:16.560 It was nineteen sixty one. My parents didn't have the 0:08:16.600 --> 0:08:19.160 money to sent me to college. I certainly wasn't a 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:24.040 scholarship winner, and so and it was assumed, you know, 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.320 you're just gonna get married, will be a secretary anyway, 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:31.000 so just get out there and work. Advertising was still 0:08:31.120 --> 0:08:35.080 like a very glamorous field, kind of Doris day Rock 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:40.280 cousin movie material and stuff and Madison Avenue. So and 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.280 I had a boyfriend in my senior year in high 0:08:43.280 --> 0:08:46.840 school and he was he worked at an ad agency. 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:52.679 So I got a job there and that was Sullivan 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:55.560 stuff with Cola and Bellis was my first job. And 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.800 it was fabulous, you know, it was a fabulous world. 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:03.480 And it was know a cushy job. I mean, my family, 0:09:03.520 --> 0:09:07.400 everybody worked so hard at what they did, and advertising 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:10.400 was cushy. I mean there was so many coffee breaks 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.040 and long lunches and cocktails at five, the amount of 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:15.920 hours you put in every day unless you were on 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.440 a TV shoot or something. And there were handsome young 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:22.920 men and it was kind of a great field. So 0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:26.800 I really enjoyed it, and so I kind of moved 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:30.280 up in it, you know, when when they're an opportunity arose. 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.280 There was a lesbian woman actually who was a producer, 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.560 and I was like a lowly I had a lowly 0:09:36.640 --> 0:09:40.200 job in the radio TV production department, but she was 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:44.120 leaving and she saw my value and she started training me. 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.120 And when she left, I took her job and I 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.400 became a radio TV producer. And I was like, I 0:09:50.400 --> 0:09:55.240 don't know, a nineteen twenty top. Yeah, yeah, you know. 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.880 I went to school. I went to the New School 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.600 UM for so sual research at night with Arnald Eagle 0:10:03.160 --> 0:10:06.520 was the teacher. And but I kind of dropped out 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.440 after a while because I was learning so much more 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:12.360 on the job and that's kind of always how I 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.560 seemed to learn best. And I was loving it. I 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:20.280 loved the whole you know, radio TV process, mechanical process 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:23.840 side of it, entertainment side, I loved all of it. 0:10:24.440 --> 0:10:27.240 So that's how I did that, and I stayed. I 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:30.960 actually had like a full time advertising job for eight years, 0:10:31.600 --> 0:10:35.240 and then you know, as time went on, I got 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:39.800 interested in theater of the ridiculous, and pretty much I 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.520 was only freelancing for like I would just do a 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:45.880 TV production job something when I needed the money. But 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:50.760 I was more already into like theater and music, and 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.400 I had already moved on from advertising, and you know, 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.160 that's how I then started. I was in one little 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:01.800 play and then Andy warholsa on the in it, and 0:11:01.840 --> 0:11:07.440 when he took Pork to London in ninev one, he 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:09.720 didn't like the girl who was playing the lead in 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.480 the New York Pork. I wasn't in Pork in New York, 0:11:13.240 --> 0:11:17.040 and so I auditioned for him and I got the 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:20.200 lead to play the pork in the in the play 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:25.760 in London, and that's where we met David Bowie and 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.800 you know, on and on from there. So it's quite 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:34.959 quite an honesty. How did you you first enter David's orbit? 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:38.000 When you were when you got to England. Well, we 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.720 got a lot of publicity when we went with Pork 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:44.880 because we were Warhol people, and so we were in 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:47.960 the newspapers a lot and all of that. And he 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.800 was not yet that famous. He had had space authority, 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:54.920 but he had three or four albums already that you know, 0:11:55.120 --> 0:11:57.840 just didn't make it. He was he was still playing 0:11:57.880 --> 0:12:01.560 little teeny clubs and stuff like that. So we were 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.880 like unequal footing artistically. In fact, we were like kind 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:08.960 of bigger than he was at that moment in a way, 0:12:09.000 --> 0:12:11.120 you know what I mean. We were we had all 0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:14.240 the publicity and you know, Warhol comes to London. Although 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:19.680 they ripped just to shreds. But but anyway, so he 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.880 knew of us, and we knew of him because Lee 0:12:22.960 --> 0:12:26.720 Children's kept up a lot with um the press, because 0:12:26.720 --> 0:12:29.640 he took photographs for a lot of rock magazines in 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:33.280 America and stuff, and he had heard of David Bowie. 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.040 David Bowie had come to America a couple of years 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.320 earlier on like a radio interview tour. He couldn't do 0:12:39.320 --> 0:12:41.680 any gigs because the work permits, but he did like 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:44.360 a radio tour, so some people knew about him. I 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.719 didn't know about him then. Most people didn't know about him. 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:51.120 And Tiny Piece and Rolling Stone about him that Lee 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:53.640 had seen. And we were on our way to rehearsal 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.600 for Pork one day in London and we saw a 0:12:56.640 --> 0:12:59.960 poster for him playing at a little club, the Country Club, 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.880 and so we went to see him that night, Lee Schilder's, 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:09.360 Jane County and me and it was him on acoustic guitar, 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.800 Rick Wakeman on piano, and Mick Ronson on electric guitar 0:13:14.880 --> 0:13:16.880 and people sat on the floor. It was like, you know, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:18.640 kind of a hippie club and it was well, it 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.440 was just past the hippie era, sort of and he 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:26.560 still had like long blonde hair and more you know, pleaded, 0:13:26.840 --> 0:13:31.800 kind of silky pants and yellow Mary James and I 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.160 an't sure if Hunky Dorry was out already or had 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:36.839 just been recorded, but they were already writing songs and 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.960 Phyziggie started us, so he was in between that he 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.599 played mostly Hunky Dorry stuff. And she didn't have a 0:13:44.679 --> 0:13:46.559 drummer or a bass player or anything, so I guess, 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.679 and that ziggy stuff hadn't come out yet, so it's 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:53.600 kind of in that era. And and she was there 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.600 and she did the lights and the sound, and so 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:59.920 we went up to her and introduced ourselves and said, 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.280 you know, we're in the cast of Andy Warhol's Pork. 0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.880 It's called David. I love to meet you, darlings, Lola, 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:10.160 Lola so and he had written that song, Andy Warhol, 0:14:10.360 --> 0:14:14.040 and so when he did it on stage, he introduced 0:14:14.120 --> 0:14:17.200 us as the cast members and asked us to stand 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:21.280 up and take about so we did. I popped out 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.120 one tip, which was some gesture I did all through 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:27.200 the play because I was playing the part of Bridget Pulk, 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:31.320 Bridget Berlin. And that's how Polk comes from Pork comes 0:14:31.320 --> 0:14:34.840 from Polk. Whatever, And in real life she was always 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:37.920 like jabbing a needle with speed and right through her 0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:41.400 jeans and popping out one tit. So that was like 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:44.840 a gesture I did in the play. And so afterwards 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:48.160 we went to a discotheque together and we all danced 0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.360 and hung out, and then they came to see the 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:56.720 play one night, along with Jannegspie and Tony DeFries, and 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:59.040 of course they came backstage, and then we all went 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:01.680 out again and we we hung out and then invited 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.720 us to their house Fatigue, and we'd go out there 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:08.880 for tea on a Sunday afternoon, and so we all 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:14.640 became friends in that way. And Pork lasted like a month, 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:16.640 and then it was supposed to move to the West 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.560 End and we never did, and so we all kind 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:24.480 of went our separate ways after that. But you know, 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.400 we could see what he could be. You know, he 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:32.600 was so talented and so charismatic that you know, we 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.760 could see this was a guy we should tell everybody 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:40.880 about back home, and so we did, and Tony Zanetta 0:15:41.400 --> 0:15:43.760 got to be really good friends with him, maybe even 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:49.200 better friends than us. More quickly they related, and so 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:54.640 then in September of seventy two, when Tony DeFries was 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:59.680 managing David and In in England and decided it was 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:04.520 time to bring him to America to tour. He hired 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.760 Tony Zanetta to be like the head of main man 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.760 the management company, and Tony basically called me up one day. 0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:15.479 I was living in Connecticut, I think, with the Berkshires. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.040 He called me up one day and I wasn't working. 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:21.400 I was probably writing but not earning any money, and 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:25.840 he said, oh, we could use somebody to answer the phones. 0:16:25.920 --> 0:16:28.200 We just got a little office on fifty Street and 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:30.920 manotte night. So I said, okay. So I went to 0:16:30.960 --> 0:16:34.120 New York and I, you know, was taking on the 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:39.600 job supposedly of answering the phones. But you know, I 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:44.040 had background in first of all, I had my high 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.360 school was like a business school, so I had background 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:50.120 in all the business machines and proper letter writing and 0:16:50.160 --> 0:16:54.040 all that other kind of stuff. And Tony and the 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.520 other people around Jeffries and David at the time when 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.480 David was still in England, but they didn't that kind 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:06.080 of sort of practical office experienced and in corporate structure 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.119 that I had known. So all of a sudden I 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:13.159 was like you know, ordering fax machines and desks and 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.520 typewriters and telephone service and show for service and you know, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:20.399 so I was like running the office. And then little 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:24.760 by little we were adding people to help. And then 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.520 when David, when Tony brought David over for the first tour, Tony, 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:31.560 Zanetta and Lee Childrens went out on the road with 0:17:31.640 --> 0:17:35.119 him and I at the beginning, I stayed behind to 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:39.520 run the office and have them check in with me 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.239 and keep everything going. And then eventually I got an 0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:47.920 assistant and I heard somebody and then because Tony Jeffries 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:50.879 wouldn't let the press talk to David Bowie because he 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.400 kept it like they couldn't get access, so they got 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:59.280 to talk to me, and uh and since I seem 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:01.640 to be a knack trail at that, you know, even 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.080 though we didn't have the internet and everything, so I 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:06.840 didn't even know that much about David back then. I mean, 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.520 it was crazy because everything was going so fast, So 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:12.800 I just made up a lot of facts when they'd 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:17.560 asked me things that because truly it was there was 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:19.840 no time. I mean I was also taken care of, 0:18:19.880 --> 0:18:22.520 like like I would go ahead if they were going 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.320 to go to a certain city. I would go ahead 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:27.680 by a week or something to that city, and I'd 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.359 get myself on the radio and you know, do interviews 0:18:31.359 --> 0:18:34.719 and stuff so that we could drum up ticket sales. 0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:37.760 So then I would go on to the next city, 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:40.960 and I would also like do little bibles for them, 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.720 like where the dry cleaner was, where the late night 0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.879 bar was, where the best Indian restaurant. What you know. 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:52.480 I was doing all these little chores, uh, and publicity, 0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:55.200 and then I would go on to the next city. 0:18:55.400 --> 0:18:57.399 But then because I wanted to see all the shows, 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:59.600 I would fly back to the other city where I 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.920 had just been to catch the show because I didn't 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.639 want to miss a show because you know that that 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:08.480 was like the most fabulous time. That was ziggy star 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:13.120 dost time, you know, the most fabulous time. Gorgeous young 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:18.080 David and gorgeous young Nick. And so I was on planes, 0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.240 you know. I remember one day. I was on three 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:26.200 planes that day, three different cities that day. Um, yeah, 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:28.919 and you know, and I loved it. I loved it. 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:31.000 I loved it, and I love being able to see 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.400 all the shows. And um, I missed one or two. 0:19:34.440 --> 0:19:36.680 I missed New Orleans. I never got to New Orleans. 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:39.359 Isn't this funny? I'm still never have been to New Orleans. 0:19:39.400 --> 0:19:41.639 I've got to get there one day. But um, I 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:44.240 missed a couple of cities here and there. But that's 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:48.399 mostly how it happened. And then um, from there, you know, 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.399 that was it? Bowie rose like a star and uh 0:19:52.720 --> 0:20:03.160 that we knew he was thinking of all the promotional 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:05.240 work you were doing and try to hype David. Was 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:07.880 he a hard sell in nineteen two or do people 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:10.960 catch on quickly that this was somebody to take notice of? Well, 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:16.639 thanks to my publicity. The thing is, the thing is 0:20:16.680 --> 0:20:21.200 he came at a certain time when the sexuality look, 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:26.360 sexuality is always going to grab people. And I didn't 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:28.840 have I didn't even know how to do PR. I 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.920 knew how to do advertising, but PR for Rock Stop 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:34.640 R for anybody I never did, it was a little different. 0:20:35.280 --> 0:20:39.080 And I didn't have a strategy. None of us had, 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:43.000 even DeFries didn't have. He had his own strategy for management. 0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:46.680 But he didn't really have a PR strategy except well 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:49.360 he did in a way because like he had karate 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:55.840 clad um uniform bodyguards you know around David. But nobody 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.359 has been trying to get near David, you know what 0:20:58.400 --> 0:21:00.920 I mean. And he told the press that David wouldn't 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:05.080 do any interviews even though they weren't banging down the 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.480 doors for interviews. So yes, he did, he did. I 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:10.399 shouldn't say that about because he did. We all played 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.600 a part in the pr but on the sexuality, and 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:19.199 which I knew would get the talk going. You know, 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.879 there was this edge where people wondered was he gayo straight? 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:26.720 Everybody wondered was he gayo straight? You know, so that 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:30.120 I knew was like a point to get people talking, 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:33.080 especially the people I knew in in New York and 0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.560 Los Angeles and all that. And so as time went on, 0:21:36.680 --> 0:21:39.400 when he said he was bisexual and and I at 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:42.480 the same time was saying he was great sex being 0:21:42.520 --> 0:21:46.160 a woman, and I'm so I'm sort of intimating he 0:21:46.240 --> 0:21:49.600 was heatero And then he's saying he's by and then 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:54.680 somebody else says, uh, he's gay, And so I think 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:58.960 that helped boost the publicity a lot. And then Tony's 0:21:59.200 --> 0:22:03.960 Tony different his genius which he was at management and 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.879 um and you know, all of us together Lee children 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:13.040 doing all the photos and Tony another managing the tours, 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:17.080 and you know, we were actors, so we looked at 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:22.040 it like improvisation, like we were given a play to play, 0:22:22.240 --> 0:22:26.359 and it was total improv for all of us. And 0:22:26.400 --> 0:22:28.600 in a way that maybe is what made it so 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:31.960 different and so fresh and so new seeming and stuff, 0:22:32.000 --> 0:22:34.359 because we didn't really know what we were doing. We 0:22:34.520 --> 0:22:38.119 just loved him, believed in him. We're having a ball, 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.560 getting paid hardly any money at all. We were doing 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:44.760 this for the love of it, which corny as it sounds. 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:46.920 When you do something for the love of it, that's 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.840 real success, you know. So you know that's the way 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:55.879 it went. And it was, you know, wonderful, marvelous, incredible 0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.600 time in our lives, you know, an incredible time and 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:02.120 we were young and hot, and you know, we were 0:23:02.160 --> 0:23:07.080 having a ball. So, um, I forgot your question, whatever 0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.920 it was you answered it. I just there's a great 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.080 quote you gave it an interview once that I love 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:16.159 life presents people to me and I say yes or no. 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:19.040 What made you say yes to David Bowie? What was 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.800 it about him that attracted him to you? Well, first 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:25.320 of all, I think there's a thing called pheromones and 0:23:25.440 --> 0:23:29.960 aura and a spirit body so I think there's a 0:23:30.040 --> 0:23:33.720 chemical element and a spiritual element in what people like. 0:23:33.760 --> 0:23:35.679 I meet a lot of people, and some people I 0:23:35.720 --> 0:23:38.159 can't remember their name after ten times meeting them, and 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:41.280 other people, the minute you know you've experienced this too. 0:23:41.560 --> 0:23:44.600 The minute you meet them, like you know, there's something 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:47.280 this person is going to be in your life. So 0:23:48.000 --> 0:23:50.560 there was that, But of course I didn't meet him 0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.320 right away. I saw him on stage the first I 0:23:53.359 --> 0:23:57.600 was in the audience, So the first thing I saw 0:23:57.760 --> 0:24:02.040 was his artistry and his he was just born to 0:24:02.160 --> 0:24:04.480 do it. He was just born to be a rock 0:24:04.600 --> 0:24:07.240