1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:08,879 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace The Case for the Resurrection 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: Bob Shell John three point sixteen True story. I'm Nancy Grace, 3 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. 4 00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: Why is it that we want proof? After I graduated 5 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: from law school and began prosecuting felony cases, my world 6 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: boiled down to black and white. Everything in my world 7 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: simply put, is it probative? What does it prove? If 8 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: I can't prove it, then it's not real. You think 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:44,600 Speaker 1: I would put a psychic in front of a jury 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: even if I believed what he or she said, No, 11 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: I would not. Nobody believes that. It would ruin the 12 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: state's case, just like putting up a witness that is 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: going to be destroyed on cross examination. Is it worth it? 14 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: Or do you? You lose all credibility in this business 15 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: the media. There is one stink bomb. If you mentioned this, 16 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: you lose all credibility, and that is christ or Resurrection 17 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:26,560 Speaker 1: joining me an all star panel to discuss the Case 18 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: for the Resurrection. Straight out to a guy I feel. 19 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: I know because I have listened to him read his books. 20 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:43,720 Speaker 1: His most recent book is The Supernatural. I'm seeing the Supernatural, 21 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 1: But what really reached me was Lee Strobel's book The 22 00:01:50,600 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: Case for Christ Today The Resurrection John three point sixteen. 23 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: According to many of us, it's a true story straight 24 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 1: out to Lee Strobel joining us now catch this. Former 25 00:02:05,720 --> 00:02:10,680 Speaker 1: legal editor of the Chicago Tribune, also covered the courthouse, beat, 26 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: crime and justice for everything boiled down to can you 27 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,919 Speaker 1: prove it beyond a reasonable doubt? Former atheist, which we'll 28 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: get into. New York Times best selling author of Seeing 29 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: the Supernatural that's his newest, The Evidence of Christ forty 30 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 1: plus books. Sorry, Strobl, I don't have time to go 31 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: through all that. My favorite so far The Case for 32 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 1: Christ Now, Lee, thank you for being with us. Also 33 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: with us an all star panel that I'm getting to. 34 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: But first to Lee Strobel, it's our super Bowl. It's Easter, 35 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: I argue, the single most important time in the Christian year. 36 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,359 Speaker 1: We hear a lot more about Christmas. I get it, 37 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 1: But super Ball Easter, no question. Without Easter, nobody would 38 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: care about Christmas. Explain to me how you turned from 39 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,079 Speaker 1: a died in the wool atheist to a believer. 40 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 2: Well, thanks, Nanswy. I was an in my backgrounds and 41 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: journalism and law, so just like you, I loved your introduction, 42 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,400 Speaker 2: because man, I feel the same way. I need evidence, 43 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 2: I need I need data, I need historical, trustworthy material 44 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 2: before I make a decision. And I just saw your 45 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: concept of all loving, all knowing God was absurd. It 46 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: wasn't worth my time to even check out. And I 47 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: married a woman who was an a stick. He ended 48 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 2: up becoming a Christian, and I thought, how do I 49 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,080 Speaker 2: wrest Let me say struggle. 50 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 1: Let me say struggle. And by the way, who's ever 51 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: running that chain of photos or depictions of Christ? Apparently 52 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: that's not at all what he looked like. He wasn't 53 00:03:57,000 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: white as a lily with blue eyes. Most likely just guessing. 54 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: But that said, let me say stroble, at least trouble. 55 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:10,440 Speaker 1: Why was the idea? I mean, you believe in the 56 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:17,680 Speaker 1: Hubble Telescope, don't you? Right? Well, of course, okay, you're 57 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: not one of those people that we think it's all 58 00:04:20,400 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 1: a scam, that we really didn't land on the moon. 59 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: You're not that personal. Then why can't you people you 60 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: said you didn't believe or couldn't consider an all knowing 61 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: or all loving God. So if you believe in the 62 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: Hubble telescope, and you believe that we can look into 63 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: galaxies millions of light years away. What's so hard to believe? 64 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: I don't understand well. 65 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:47,919 Speaker 2: As you'll find out as you interview as they have 66 00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 2: a lot of reasons for not believing, and tend to, 67 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:53,600 Speaker 2: as the Book of Romans said, to suppress the evidence. 68 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 2: And so you find ways to explain all of the evidence, 69 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,479 Speaker 2: just as a Book of Romans says that we tend 70 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 2: to suppress the evidence because we want to be God. 71 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 2: We want to make our own decisions. We don't want 72 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 2: to be given commandments to live by. 73 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: You know, you mentioned Romans, and they'll have to ask 74 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: you and Father Puzanna about the problem with the Old Testament. 75 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: Talk about an angry father. I mean, that's bad, that's 76 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: really bad. In the Old Testament. It's very hard for 77 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: many people to reconcile the God in the Old Testament 78 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: with the God in the New Testament. I have my 79 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 1: own ways to reconcile it. But you mentioned Romans, and 80 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: of course Romans was written by Paul aka alias Saul 81 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:48,720 Speaker 1: the Christian Killer, who, like you, became a believer. That 82 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: happens to have my favorite Bible verse of all times 83 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: in Romans. That's why I have a particular love for Romans. 84 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 1: But that said, so you're dying the atheists, you're coming 85 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: covering the crime be nothing but murder, ray Cholmleas Station 86 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: Mayhem all day long, and you like it. So how 87 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: did you end up becoming a Christian? Much less a 88 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: Christian author? Best selling author, New York Times bestselling author. 89 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 2: My wife was agnostic. She met a neighbor who was 90 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 2: a Christian, shared Jesus with her, went to church with her, 91 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 2: and then she came and gave me the worst news 92 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 2: an atheists husband could get. She said, I decided to 93 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 2: become a Christian, and I thought divorce would be the answer. 94 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 2: But then I thought maybe I could rescue her from 95 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: this cult that she got involved in. So I decided 96 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,159 Speaker 2: to take my legal training and my journalism training and 97 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,680 Speaker 2: systematically investigate is there any credibility to the resurrection of 98 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,760 Speaker 2: Jesus Christ? Because I figured, even as an atheist, that 99 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,119 Speaker 2: is the foundation, that is the lynchpin of the Christian faith, 100 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 2: because Jesus clearly may transcendent and missying in divine claims 101 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: about himself. But so what I could do that? You 102 00:06:56,279 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 2: could do that, anybody could do that. But if Jesus 103 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 2: claimed to be God, died and then three days later 104 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 2: return from the dead. That's pretty good evidence he's telling 105 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: the truth. And so I spent two years of my 106 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 2: life using my journalism and legal trainee to investigate the 107 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 2: data of history to try to come to an informed 108 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: verdict on whether or not Jesus backed up his claim 109 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 2: to being the son of God by returning from the 110 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: dead in the third Day. And I became convinced, based 111 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,800 Speaker 2: on history, on documents, based on I witness accounts, and 112 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 2: so forth, that Jesus is who he claim to be. 113 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 2: And that's when I abandoned my atheism and received Jesus 114 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: as my forgiver and a leader joining me. 115 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: In addition to best selling author Lee Struggle, Father Cedric Pisana, 116 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:49,440 Speaker 1: Father Cedric ministries airs on tb N on Sundays and 117 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 1: at seven am on EWTN Sundays at nine thirty am. 118 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: He's the author of Rise, Living, The Risen Life, and 119 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: Death I Surrender. There are twenty five books to go through. Father. 120 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. You know, Les Trouble 121 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: just said so many interesting things, But one thing he 122 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: said was that Christ declared himself the son of God. 123 00:08:15,040 --> 00:08:17,120 Speaker 1: Now you know what I noticed, And of course I'm 124 00:08:17,160 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: just a la person compared to all of you Christian intellectuals, 125 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,559 Speaker 1: but I noticed that very often when Christ would perform 126 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:31,280 Speaker 1: a miracle, which was documented in many written sources at 127 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: the time by non Christians, they would often refer to 128 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: Christ as basically an insurrectionist that could perform magic, healing 129 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: people through magic. They didn't know what to make of it. 130 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: But Father, I noticed from my point of view in 131 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: the Gospels, whenever he would perform a miracle, he would say, 132 00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: don't tell anybody. And when he would be asked who 133 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 1: are you, even by Pacha's pilot, he would not come 134 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: out and say I am the son of God. It 135 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: was there at the very end, when the disciples still 136 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: weren't getting it, that he did claim to be the 137 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: son of God. But I found him to be I 138 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: find him to be very humble. I mean, in everything 139 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: he did, it's a lesson on how we are to live. 140 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:31,840 Speaker 1: I don't find him touting his own horn that often. 141 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, he wasn't that way. He taught with parables and 142 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 3: he taught with a lot of wisdom. But he's the 143 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 3: only person I have ever heard of, both written and 144 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 3: spoken that ever said I am the resurrection in the life. 145 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,319 Speaker 3: These are unprecedented claims. And we're talking about the proof 146 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 3: of the resurrection, Nancy, and I thank you for having 147 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: me on. I'm a Catholic priest and for two thousand 148 00:09:56,200 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 3: years the Church has been present proclaiming this that there 149 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 3: not only is there a resurrection of Jesus, but we 150 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 3: are all going to be resurrected in the last stay 151 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 3: and stand before God. And when you talk about proof 152 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 3: of the resurrection, let me say this. I liken it 153 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 3: to a boat. If there's a boat going through a harbor, 154 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 3: it creates a wake in the same way the resurrection 155 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,199 Speaker 3: has created a wake. For example, the Bible, the New 156 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,280 Speaker 3: Testament has come forth because of that that the apostles 157 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 3: have died for this, They've been martyred. 158 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: People don't die, Father, bizigna father when you know many 159 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,439 Speaker 1: people And I can't wait to hear the rest of 160 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 1: the pane'll talk about this. Like myself sometimes wonder is 161 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: this real? But wondering is not a sin. It's not 162 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:54,160 Speaker 1: the end of you as a Christian. And I would 163 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 1: like to refer to Thomas the Doubter when he said 164 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: I don't believe the resurrection has bs. Excuse me, Father 165 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: Christ did not hate him, he didn't reject him. He 166 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: wooed Thomas and showed him his scars. He felt where 167 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:20,680 Speaker 1: the sword had gone in Christ's side, and Thomas no 168 00:11:20,720 --> 00:11:26,120 Speaker 1: longer doubted something. You just said that the disciples were 169 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: willing to die, to die horrible deaths. When Peter the 170 00:11:31,920 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: Rock was murdered, he refused to be crucified. He said 171 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: that was the way Christ was killed. I'm not worthy 172 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: of that and was crucified upside down these people. When 173 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: I feel weak, I think of them and all the 174 00:11:48,520 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 1: early Christians that were murdered for their beliefs. They would 175 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: rather die than recan't Christ? And that is very persuasive 176 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: to me speaking about Yeah, let me share. 177 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,680 Speaker 3: This very quickly because you have other panelists here. But 178 00:12:05,240 --> 00:12:07,439 Speaker 3: I had a young man come up to me. He 179 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: was a teenager, and he said, Father Ceda could sizter. 180 00:12:10,760 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 3: How do we know that Jesus was risen? And that's 181 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 3: the question before us right now. And what I told 182 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 3: him was, I know he's risen because he lives in me. 183 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 3: He's changed my life. I have actually had two near 184 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 3: death experiences where I encountered the risen Christ, and this 185 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 3: so revolutionized my life that I became a Catholic priest 186 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 3: with a vow of poverty, chastity and obedience. And Jesus said, 187 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 3: by your fruit you will know them. So the bottom 188 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 3: line is that he pours out his Holy Spirit upon people, 189 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 3: and that's the proof of the resurrection, that you can 190 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 3: encounter Christ and that your doubts can be turned into faith. 191 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 3: But more than anything, Jesus wants faith from us. 192 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 1: Crime stores with nancy grace. 193 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 4: Jesus triumphal entry into Jerusalem was a threat to the 194 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 4: religious leaders of the day, as their power was derived 195 00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 4: from rules and traditions. Jesus was also seen as a 196 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:14,480 Speaker 4: political threat by religious leaders as well as Roman authority, 197 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 4: fearing the populace would unite behind Jesus, leading to unrest. 198 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 4: Some of Jesus' early supporters expect him to be a 199 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 4: political or military leader and are disappointed to find out otherwise. 200 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 4: In the crowds, we're instigators, sowing seeds of false information 201 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 4: about Jesus and our right lies, causing the people to 202 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 4: question him, leading to his arrest gang mentality. 203 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: Okay, one thing I don't understand as how a single 204 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 1: guy from all places, Bethlehem, Nazareth was a political threat. 205 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: He owned one pair of sandals that somebody probably gave 206 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: him a robe, and that was it. How did one 207 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:04,400 Speaker 1: guy post such an incredible threat to the hierarchy, not 208 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: just the local religious leaders, but beyond to the Roman Empire? 209 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel as we head into 210 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: our super Bowl Easter to Lee's strobel joining us. How 211 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: many times have I wanted to speak to you along 212 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:29,240 Speaker 1: with an all star panel? Each a bright light in 213 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: this world. Lee is the author of a brand new book, 214 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 1: Seeing the Supernatural, but also The Case for Christ, which 215 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: I have listened to many times Lee on tape. So Lee, 216 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: can we talk about proof? Yes, and everything that father 217 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: Father Pizana has said, Michael Lacona has said is true. 218 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: But I can't go to a Jerry and say, Okay, 219 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 1: this guy said ed he saw a vision of a 220 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: man that died two thousand years ago, and that's my proof. 221 00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: Do I believe it? Yes? I believe it happened. Can 222 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: I offer it as proof? Probably not. Now give me 223 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,600 Speaker 1: some proof, Lee, Sure, the things I heard you talk 224 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:26,080 Speaker 1: about in your book. Can we just start with eyewitnesses? 225 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 2: Sure? Most of the facts that we accept as being 226 00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 2: true about the ancient world when you dig down into them, 227 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 2: are based on one source or two sources of information. 228 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: We have no fewer than nine ancient early sources confirming 229 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 2: and corroborating their conviction that they encountered the risen Christ. First, 230 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 2: we have a report of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 231 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,040 Speaker 2: including named eye witnesses and groups of eyewitnesses, far too 232 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: quick to be a legend that developed over the centuries 233 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:56,400 Speaker 2: that came later. A second, we have Paul's testimony. He 234 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: had been Saul of Tarsus, he had an encounter with 235 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 2: the risen Christ. Then he became the apostle Paul. But 236 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: then he got to know some of the apostles, including Peter, James, 237 00:16:04,520 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 2: and John. And Paul says himself, he says, regarding the resurrection, 238 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,000 Speaker 2: whether it is I or they, this is what we preach. 239 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: In other words, I was an eyewitness, and their eyewitnesses too. Third, 240 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 2: we have Peter himself in the Book of Acts, which 241 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: even skeptical scholars will accept as a book about the 242 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: spread of early Christianity. And Peter gets up before a 243 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 2: group and he says, God has raised this Jesus to life, 244 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: to which we're all witnesses, and three thousand people that 245 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 2: day said Peter, we know you're telling the truth, and 246 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,560 Speaker 2: the Church was born. The next four sources are the 247 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: Gospels Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are nine appearances 248 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: of the risen Jesus in those gospels, and we have 249 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:45,720 Speaker 2: every reason to believe that those gospels are reliable. They 250 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: are early enough, they are rooted into the right streams, 251 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 2: They go back to Jesus and the original people. There's proximity, 252 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 2: there's verification of distinct points with archaeology and other documents. 253 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 2: So there's the inner logic, of course, continuity. 254 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: Whoa whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. See you're so smart. 255 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: You and everybody else on this panel other than me 256 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: are just you know, rieling it off. Got me drinking 257 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: for the fire hydrants. Stroebe. You can't take all that in. 258 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,919 Speaker 1: But you said eye witnesses, and you were referring to 259 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:25,080 Speaker 1: the disciples multiple accounts. I'm going to circle back to that, 260 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:30,840 Speaker 1: But what about what about outside the Bible? I want 261 00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: to get to that, the writings outside the Bible, but 262 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: the hundreds of people that reportedly saw him during the 263 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: forty days he walked the earth post crucifixion. 264 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 2: What about them, Yeah, they're mentioned in that creed that 265 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: I mentioned, that early report of the resurrection. It says 266 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 2: it mentioned the specific names of eyewitnesses to whom he appeared, 267 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:56,640 Speaker 2: including Peter, including James, the half brother of Jesus, who 268 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 2: who was not a follower of Jesus during Jesus' lifetime, 269 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: he was radically converted and became a ultimately martyred for 270 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: his faith as a leader of the Church of Jerusalem 271 00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: because he encountered the risen Jesus. And it talks about 272 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: groups of people, including five hundred people at once, who 273 00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 2: encountered the resurrected Jesus and Peter, and Paul said to 274 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 2: the church in court, he said, I'm paraphrase. He basically said, look, 275 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 2: you don't believe me. A lot of these five hundred 276 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,120 Speaker 2: witnesses are still around. Go talk to them. They'll tell 277 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: you the truth. And then we have people who actually 278 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 2: sat under the teachings of the eyewitnesses themselves, and they 279 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 2: tell us what the eyewitnesses said. So, for instance, we 280 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,560 Speaker 2: have Clement, who we believe was ordained by Peter himself, 281 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: and Clement wrote a letter right there in the first 282 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: century in which you said the disciples had quote complete 283 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 2: certainty caused by the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. 284 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 2: And then we have Polycart, who we believe was appointed 285 00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: the bishop of the Church of Smyrna by John himself, 286 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 2: and he wrote a letter to the Philippian chore and 287 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 2: he said, you mentioned the resurrection no fewer than five times, 288 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 2: and he said, I'll quote him. He said about Paul 289 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 2: and the other apostles, he said, for they did not 290 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,440 Speaker 2: love the present age, but him who died for their 291 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: benefit and for our sake, was raised by God. So 292 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: we have nine ancient sources going back extremely early, confirming 293 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: and corroborating that the disciples were convinced that Jesus was 294 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: resurrected and appeared to them. 295 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:35,440 Speaker 1: And I'd like to point out not just the disciples. 296 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: Yes, that's rights. 297 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:46,719 Speaker 1: Yes, members of the then current religious regime were converted, 298 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:51,040 Speaker 1: and they were very anti Christ or converted Romans who 299 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: had their lives to lose if they converted, did convert 300 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: because they saw him, they would rather go so live 301 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: in caves. What if somebody said, okay, you need to 302 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 1: pack up all your stuff and go live in a 303 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: cave with your children. They did that rather than recan't 304 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 1: their beliefs joining me now in addition to Lee's Strobull, 305 00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: author of The Case for christ Father, Cedric Pizania, Michael Lacona, 306 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,640 Speaker 1: Billy Hallowell is joining US. Host at CBN Christian Broadcasting Network, 307 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 1: has a new documentary out investigating the supernatural Miracles, has 308 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: two podcasts, multiple books at Billyhollowell dot com. Billy. One 309 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: thing that is very convincing to me is that many 310 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: people like strobel did not believe. They didn't believe. In fact, 311 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: they had a great interest personal interest in not believing. 312 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: They would lose their job, they would lose their home, 313 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: they could be put to death if they chose to believe. 314 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: Yet after seeing Christ following the Resurrection, walking the earth 315 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: for forty days, they chose to give it all up 316 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: and become believers. Not just the disciples, not just them 317 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 1: his close followers, but people that didn't even know him before. 318 00:21:24,280 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: I find that very probative. 319 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 5: Well, it is, and you think about the fact that 320 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 5: you were saying, before you know some people, you know, 321 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,000 Speaker 5: why was Jesus such a threat to so many people? 322 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 5: And he's performing miracles, and he's walking around and he's 323 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 5: doing these things that are shocking people and making them 324 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 5: wonder who is he really? And I would say I 325 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 5: think this is important to talk about. We're talking about 326 00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 5: the history in the past. We're talking about what the 327 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 5: Bible says and whether it's true, whether he resurrected. Let's 328 00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,120 Speaker 5: look at the world today. You asked that question about 329 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 5: people living in caves around the world. Today, Christian persecution 330 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 5: is the worst that it has ever been in history. 331 00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 5: There are millions of people who are very much worse 332 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 5: off and living in caves. They're being slaughtered and murdered 333 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 5: and killed because they will not recant the faith. So 334 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 5: that same proof that we're talking about actually back then 335 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 5: with Paul and so many others. We're watching people live 336 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 5: that out actively in those changed lives right now as 337 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,919 Speaker 5: we speak, in countries around the world. And I'll tell 338 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 5: you the thing, Nick. 339 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: Queer, I want to hear about current Christian persecution. 340 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 5: Absolutely, the World Watch List every year they rank the 341 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 5: worst countries. North Korea is typically number one, Nigeria right now, 342 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 5: and I would encourage people to look this up. We 343 00:22:32,760 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 5: cover this at CBN frequently. What is happening in Nigeria 344 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 5: is horrific. The slaughter, the murder, the killing, the systematic, 345 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 5: I mean pastors and leaders and normal Christians, people who 346 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 5: will not recant their faith. Not only are these second 347 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 5: class citizens in many of these countries, but they are 348 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 5: put in labor camps and they are slaughtered. And this 349 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 5: is very actively happening around the world. Here in America, 350 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 5: we don't think about these things because generally speaking, we 351 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 5: have very good First Amendment religion, liberty. Other countries this 352 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,359 Speaker 5: does not exist. And so but my point is that 353 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 5: proof that we're talking about, we see it being lived 354 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 5: out actively right now in our world today, and that's 355 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 5: easy to look past it. 356 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,159 Speaker 1: I think it's important to discuss again. We are heading 357 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,560 Speaker 1: into the most sacred time of the year for Christians 358 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 1: around the world, and that is Easter. It's painful to 359 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:27,480 Speaker 1: hear from me. It's painful to hear the way Christ 360 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: was treated. 361 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 6: Jesus was arrested on charges of sedition because the Romans 362 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 6: saw him as a serious threat to their authority. Jewish 363 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 6: leaders felt the same way, Jesus's teachings were a threat 364 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 6: to their authority. The combination of leadership from the political 365 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 6: and religious parts of society, coupled with the groundswell of 366 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 6: false information, turned the crowds against Jesus. It took only 367 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 6: one week from the city of Jerusalem to go from 368 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:52,800 Speaker 6: praise him to crucify him. 369 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 7: Jesus was arrested late on Thursday night after the Passover meal. 370 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 7: He appeared before the Sanhedrin immediately, as the Jewish leaders 371 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 7: wanted him try as quickly as possible. He is accused 372 00:24:02,080 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 7: of blasphemy and claiming to be King of the Jews. 373 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 7: He is judged guilty, condemned to die, and turned over 374 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:09,760 Speaker 7: to Ponche's pilot. 375 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: To Elis Strobel, joining us former legal editor at the 376 00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 1: Chicago Tribune. And I say that to tell you that 377 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: he is a hard boiled investigative reporter, former atheist who 378 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: is now a devout Christian. And of course, when I 379 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: say devout Christian, I don't really see many people think 380 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:39,119 Speaker 1: that that means perfect. We are anything but perfect. And 381 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: that is to me the beauty of Christianity, because if 382 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:49,920 Speaker 1: Christ could take the disciples who were quite the lot, okay, 383 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:57,480 Speaker 1: and turn them in to heroes, maybe maybe there's a 384 00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: chance for the rest of us. And I'm throwing Paul 385 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,719 Speaker 1: and that pot to stew. He actually tortured and killed 386 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:11,119 Speaker 1: Christians and became a great, great supporter of Christ and 387 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: is the author of Romans in the Bible, the Book 388 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 1: of Romans. Speaking of probative evidence again, Lee, I've described 389 00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:25,240 Speaker 1: how I now see the world after law school. I 390 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,120 Speaker 1: went to law school following the murder of my fiance. 391 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:37,400 Speaker 1: I went from that emotional mess to becoming a felony prosecutor. 392 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: And the only way I could do it was to 393 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: shut out any and all emotion and look at the facts. 394 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,640 Speaker 1: No my case and their case better than they did, 395 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: so I could be prepared to destroy it. So I'm 396 00:25:55,280 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 1: asking you about hard evidence. We've talked about eyewitness accounts 397 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 1: that saw Christ following, walking and talking, eating food after 398 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: the resurrection after being crucified, and there was no doubt 399 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: he was killed because when his body first turned up 400 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 1: missing out of the tomb, Pilot sent his hitch people 401 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: to look in all of the graves, mass graves, burial 402 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: grounds to try to find his body to parade it 403 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,840 Speaker 1: and show, look, he's really dead, but it couldn't be found. Now, 404 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:40,400 Speaker 1: what I want to talk to you about is contemporaneous 405 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 1: writings at the time about Christ and contemporaneous means a 406 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,880 Speaker 1: lot to me because we are very willing to accept. 407 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: For instance, the story of the Trojan War in Iliad 408 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: and Odyssey written by Homer, and that was written hundreds 409 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: of years after the Trojan War. I believe it was 410 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 1: written in the same with the right century. But yeah, 411 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 1: we're like, yeah, okay, I get it. Trojan War, it happened. 412 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 1: Why is it such heresy to say John three sixteen 413 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: true story. I don't get the difference. I want to 414 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: talk about writings at the time by non Christians that 415 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: talk about Christ. 416 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,720 Speaker 2: Well, we have all kinds of evidence from the first century. 417 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:26,479 Speaker 2: You know, Jesus really proved his divinity by returning from 418 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 2: the dead. Before he died, he got up before a 419 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 2: group and he said, I and the Father are one. 420 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 2: And the Greek word for one there is not masculinus neuter, 421 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 2: which means Jesus was not saying I and the Father 422 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 2: are the same person. He was saying, I and the 423 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: Father are the same thing or one in nature. We're 424 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,400 Speaker 2: one in essence. And the audience understood that we were saying, 425 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 2: because they picked up stones to kill him. He said, 426 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,920 Speaker 2: you you're just a man and you're claiming to be God. 427 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: So Jesus claimed to be gone, but so what anybody 428 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 2: can do that? But it was his resurrection that proved 429 00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 2: that he is indeed who he claimed to be, the 430 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,280 Speaker 2: unique son of God. And so you would expect that 431 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 2: there would be writings in the first century shortly thereafter 432 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 2: that would establish the truth of the resurrection. And we 433 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,640 Speaker 2: do have this report with named eye witnesses and groups 434 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 2: of eyewitnesses that has been dated back to within months 435 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:15,399 Speaker 2: of his death. I mean, I don't know if people 436 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 2: realize how significant that is historically when you consider the 437 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 2: first two biographies of Alexander the Great were written by 438 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 2: Arian and Plutarch four hundred years after his life, and 439 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: they're generally considerable. And yet here we have a report 440 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,240 Speaker 2: going back within months of his death, after he affirmed 441 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: who he is by attorney from the dead. Not only that, 442 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 2: but we've had, as I mentioned, the nine ancient sources 443 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: confirming the conviction of the Disciples that they did encounter 444 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: him resurrected. The Disciples were in a different position of 445 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 2: all human beings who've ever lived on the planet. They 446 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 2: were there, they touched the resurrected Jesus. They talked to them, 447 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,239 Speaker 2: they ate with them. They knew for a fact. They 448 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 2: didn't just believe it. They knew for a fact is 449 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: this true or is it a lie? And knowing it 450 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: was true, they were willing to live lives of deprivation 451 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,320 Speaker 2: and suffering. They were willing to die for their proclamation 452 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 2: that Jesus had risen. Nobody knowingly and willingly dies for 453 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 2: a lie. 454 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: Joining me is another special guest. In addition to Strobel, 455 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 1: Father Pausania, Michael Lacona, and Billy Hollowell. Longtime friend and 456 00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 1: colleague now author Guy Powell, host of podcasts The Backstory 457 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: on the Shroud of Turan, which is amazing. It's incredible 458 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 1: your podcast, but also author of a brand new book, 459 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: one of many, The Only Witness A History of the 460 00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:48,240 Speaker 1: Shroud of Turin, I believe. Could you show me your copy. 461 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've got one handy, Guy Powell new book, 462 00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: The Only Witness A History of the Shroud of Turin. 463 00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: I want to follow up Guy on something that Strobel 464 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:05,880 Speaker 1: Lee Strobe just said. He is referring to eyewitnesses. He's 465 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: referring to people that came in contact with the disciples 466 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,480 Speaker 1: and described what they said and how they were willing 467 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: to die for what they witnessed. I want to talk 468 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,640 Speaker 1: to you, and this ties in with your assertion that 469 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: the shroud of Turin is real, that it was used 470 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: to wrap the body of Christ, and he emerged from 471 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: the tomb and the shroud survived with his imprint on it. 472 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: I want to refer you to Cornelius Tacitus. He lived 473 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: fifty six to one twenty AD. Secular, secular, non religious. 474 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: And this is what I look for when I try 475 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,680 Speaker 1: a case. Say I put up an eyewitness. I know 476 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: he's going to be he she's going to be attacked 477 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: on cross examination, hopefully not destroyed. But I look for 478 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:03,560 Speaker 1: corroborating facts. How can I corroborate? Can I corroborate what 479 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: this witness has said with impartial evidence? Okay, then I 480 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: can tell a Jerry. This is why you should believe 481 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 1: Guy Powell, because one, two, three, and four it's irrefutable. 482 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: I don't care what they say, so Guy. Back to 483 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:24,920 Speaker 1: Cornelie's Tacitus. He confirmed several historical elements that have been 484 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: found in secular, non religious texts, for instance, that Christ 485 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: did live in Judea, was crucified under pontchous pilots, his 486 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: followers were persecuted and murdered, and much more so. So 487 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: much of the story is corroborated by secular, non religious translation. 488 00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: They don't have a dog in the fight, no skin 489 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: of the game, they don't care corroborates the story of Christ. 490 00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:00,000 Speaker 8: Yeah, that is such an important piece of the evidence 491 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 8: and the proof of the resurrection, you know, that singular 492 00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 8: thing that really defines Christianity. And you know, and even 493 00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 8: when you look at those other writers and how they 494 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:15,440 Speaker 8: also reflect what's been written in the Gospels as well. 495 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 2: You know. 496 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,719 Speaker 8: So you have, you know, the appearances and those are 497 00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:22,040 Speaker 8: written in the Gospels. You have then the crucifixion that's 498 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 8: described in the gospels. You have the the the wounds 499 00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 8: that he suffered, and and and other evidence that's of 500 00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:32,160 Speaker 8: course now found on the shrouds. So you have the 501 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 8: written evidence that you've been talking about so far. But 502 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 8: now we have actually what I believe to be physical 503 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 8: evidence that reflects what's in the in the four Gospels, 504 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:46,239 Speaker 8: with the wounds to the hands, with the wounds to 505 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 8: the feet, with the wounds to the side, with the 506 00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 8: crown of thorns, with the beating and the and the 507 00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 8: wounds from all of those whippings that he suffered, and 508 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 8: the shroud of Turin reflects all of that. And so 509 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 8: I think that you know that right there, in addition 510 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,280 Speaker 8: to all of these writings from the contemporary authors contemporaneous authors, 511 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:14,840 Speaker 8: also reflects that another dimension of proof that supports these 512 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 8: other writers. 513 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,880 Speaker 4: He was nailed to a cross and hung between two 514 00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 4: convicted thieves. A sign attached to the top of the 515 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 4: cross said Jesus of Nazareth, king of the Jews. Crucifixion 516 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,240 Speaker 4: is not a fast death, and the Gospel of Mark 517 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:30,640 Speaker 4: says Jesus was crucified at the third hour or nine am. 518 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,960 Speaker 4: While on the cross, Jesus was taunted and harassed. Around noon, 519 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 4: darkness covered the earth and lasted for hours. In the 520 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 4: ninth hour, around three pm, Jesus died on the cross. 521 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:50,320 Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace. 522 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 4: In the Bible. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, and Luke 523 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,719 Speaker 4: describe a darkness covering the land from noon to three 524 00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 4: peace during jesus crucifixion. Dallas was a historian and secular 525 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 4: writer around fifty a d who is probably the earliest 526 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 4: secular writer to mention Jesus, but his works don't exist 527 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 4: anymore except where quoted by Julius Africanus in two twenty 528 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 4: one AD. Dallas previously tried to explain the way the 529 00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 4: darkness occurring at jesus crucifixion. He said, quote on the 530 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 4: whole world there pressed the most fearful darkness, and the 531 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,680 Speaker 4: rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in 532 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 4: Judea and other districts were thrown down this darkness. Thallas, 533 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 4: in the third book of his history calls as appears 534 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 4: to me without reason an eclipse of the sun. 535 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:43,879 Speaker 1: The darkness and the temple being ripped in half has 536 00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: now been corroborated. Well, it was already corroborated in ancient 537 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: writings by Tallis in the third book of his history, 538 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: straight out to Lie's struggle. I find it very interesting 539 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,080 Speaker 1: that in your case for Christ, you report many, many 540 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,200 Speaker 1: Roman accounts of corroboration of the story of Christ and 541 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 1: the resurrection, but you also refer to Jewish accounts. Christ 542 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,560 Speaker 1: was a Jew, and you refer to the Talmud and 543 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: important Jewish work where he was referred to as a 544 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: false messiah who quote practiced magic and would heal people 545 00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 1: through some magical means. I find that very corroborative. 546 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: Well, very much so. And also the Talmud also reports 547 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 2: that Jesus was executed and thus killed. You know, a 548 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 2: lot of skeptics like I had been, said, well, maybe 549 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:42,600 Speaker 2: Jesus didn't die on the cross, Maybe he survived the crucifixion, 550 00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 2: maybe he fainted, maybe the cool, damp air of the 551 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 2: tomb resuscitated him. And so that's where this idea of 552 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 2: the resurrection came from. But we have five ancient sources 553 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:56,839 Speaker 2: outside the Bible that report the execution of Jesus, including Josephus, 554 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: a first century Jewish historian, Tacitus of Oarsarapian, Lucian, and 555 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 2: the Jewish Talman. In fact, get this, even the Journal 556 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 2: of the American Medical Association, a secular, scientific, peer reviewed 557 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 2: medical journal, carried an investigation into the death of Jesus, 558 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,799 Speaker 2: and their conclusion was quote Clearly, the weight of the 559 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: historical and medical evidence indicates that Jesus was dead even 560 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 2: before the wound to his side was inflicted. So this 561 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:31,319 Speaker 2: idea that somehow Jesus survived the crucifixion is disproven by 562 00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:35,160 Speaker 2: reports inside the New Testament, outside the New Testament, and 563 00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: even the Journal of the American Medical Association, to the 564 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,760 Speaker 2: point where one of the most famous atheist New Testament scholar, 565 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:48,280 Speaker 2: Garret Ludeman, said, it is indisputable historically that Jesus died 566 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:49,839 Speaker 2: an he was crucified. 567 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: The dying part I get Father sedik Pazania is the resurrection. 568 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: I believe that it bears great scrutiny. I have been 569 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,120 Speaker 1: convinced for many, many reasons. But Father, really the cold, 570 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: damn air in the tomb revived him. He was almost 571 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:13,800 Speaker 1: severed and half with a sword through his side, one 572 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: side to the next. He was dead, Father. And also 573 00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 1: can I get you to address Father? Which I find 574 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:26,960 Speaker 1: very significant the fact that women, who are so mistreated 575 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: around the world, so looked down upon, so not able 576 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:36,200 Speaker 1: to speak, women Mary and Mary Magdalene were the first 577 00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 1: to find him. They were the ones to find that 578 00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: he was no longer in the tomb. I find that 579 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: very significant. 580 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,120 Speaker 3: I do too, because you would think that the gospel 581 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 3: writers would want to downplay that, but they told the 582 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,760 Speaker 3: truth as it was that a woman, a second class 583 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:56,080 Speaker 3: cisten in that society, was the first to witness the resurrection, 584 00:37:56,800 --> 00:37:59,480 Speaker 3: and if they were trying to create a lie scenario. 585 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 3: They wouldn't have said that at all. But let me 586 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 3: say this also. You quoted Thomas the doubter, and Jesus 587 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 3: said to him, you believe because you've seen a Blessed 588 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,799 Speaker 3: to those who believe without seeing. Whether it be the 589 00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 3: shroud or the evidence we're presenting. In a trial, jury 590 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 3: goes to talk talk things over. Then they have to 591 00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,919 Speaker 3: make a decision. And I think that's what God wants 592 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 3: from us. He wants faith, wants us to make a decision. 593 00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,399 Speaker 3: He could have given us more evidence, but I think 594 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 3: it's exactly the way God wanted it, and now it's 595 00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 3: our choice. Blessed to those who believe without seeing, and 596 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,720 Speaker 3: as you believe, you will see. That's the Gospel of John. 597 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,480 Speaker 3: Seeing doesn't come just by seeing, it comes through faith. 598 00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 3: And that's what I think this whole program is about. 599 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,279 Speaker 3: We're hoping to inspire people's faith that there not only 600 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 3: is a resurrection, but it can change your life. So 601 00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 3: Blessed to those who believe without seeing. 602 00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 1: To Billie Hallowell joining us from CBN, gimme your best 603 00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: case for the resurrection. 604 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think the biggest question of where the body 605 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,640 Speaker 5: is we've gone through so many facts today. I mean, 606 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,279 Speaker 5: I look at Paul in his life. I mean, these 607 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,080 Speaker 5: are radical transformations. You have the five hundred. I think 608 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 5: it's important to go back to that. And if you 609 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,480 Speaker 5: look at where these five hundred people who apparently all 610 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:28,680 Speaker 5: saw Jesus at the same time after his death and resurrection, 611 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,840 Speaker 5: it's written in First Corinthians. That book was written in 612 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,840 Speaker 5: a D fifty five and as Lee was saying, this 613 00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 5: was at a time when most of the people were 614 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 5: still alive. I mean, you think about you have to 615 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 5: put all the pieces together into a puzzle, and when 616 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,239 Speaker 5: you do that, it becomes remarkable that somebody Paul would 617 00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:49,160 Speaker 5: be willing to write that. But I think the biggest evidence, 618 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:53,239 Speaker 5: obviously everything we've talked about extending into today, and most 619 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 5: of my job is spent talking to people whose lives 620 00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:59,440 Speaker 5: have changed. They've gone from prison to finding Jesus. They've 621 00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,360 Speaker 5: gone from her horrific careers in drugs and other places. 622 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 5: I won't even mention into becoming pastors. What is it 623 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,640 Speaker 5: that changes a person. It's the very same thing through 624 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 5: the resurrection that we see in the Bible, and we're 625 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:12,800 Speaker 5: seeing that still in people's lives. 626 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 1: Today. Well, put Billy Guy Powell. Having prosecuted crimes for 627 00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: so long, horrible felonies, people torturing each other, literally, torturing babies, murdering, 628 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:30,560 Speaker 1: just drugs, I'm convinced that just as there is a 629 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:35,200 Speaker 1: Holy Father, that there is a devil. I don't know 630 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: the ins and outs, I don't know the details, but 631 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,919 Speaker 1: from what I've seen, it's very real in our world. Guy, 632 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,239 Speaker 1: best case for the resurrection hit me? 633 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:49,560 Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I agree with everybody else, but I 634 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 8: think the best case is the Shroud of Turin. It 635 00:40:53,640 --> 00:41:00,000 Speaker 8: is a physical proof that has actual proof and elements 636 00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:04,920 Speaker 8: in it that reflect the resurrection and reflect the I'm sorry, 637 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,200 Speaker 8: reflect the gospels. All four of the Gospels talk about 638 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,880 Speaker 8: the inhumane, the devilish things that the Romans did to 639 00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:16,360 Speaker 8: this man. And each one of those things, the crown 640 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 8: of thorns as you're showing the you know, the whip marks, 641 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:25,960 Speaker 8: that the nailing through the hands and the feet, and 642 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,440 Speaker 8: then the side wound to make sure that he was dead. 643 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 8: All of those are reflected on the shroud. And that 644 00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 8: shroud then has been around for two thousand years. It 645 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 8: has proof, many many different proofs that indicate that it 646 00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:43,880 Speaker 8: is two thousand years old, and that it has, you know, 647 00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 8: survived all of these earthquakes and fires and things like that, 648 00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,480 Speaker 8: and it would never have survived if it wasn't the 649 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 8: proof to me, if it wasn't the proof that Jesus 650 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,279 Speaker 8: Christ lived on the earth, he walked with us, and 651 00:41:57,320 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 8: then he died and was resurrected. 652 00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,120 Speaker 1: Guy Powell, author of The Only Witness, A History of 653 00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:07,520 Speaker 1: the Shroud of Turin. If you still doubt, which I'm 654 00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:13,520 Speaker 1: sure many people do, conduct your own investigation as Les 655 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,360 Speaker 1: Trouble did, as Father Pausania did, Michael Lacone, Guy Powell, 656 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: Billy Hallowell. Find out the truth for yourself beyond a 657 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:30,800 Speaker 1: reasonable doubt. John three point sixteen True story Nancy Grace 658 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,520 Speaker 1: signing off goodbye friend,