1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: There's no one more closely associated with junk bonds than 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,400 Speaker 1: Michael Milkin, who in the nineteen seventies realized that investors 3 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:11,520 Speaker 1: could make more money buying bonds from companies with lower 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: credit ratings than they could from companies with triple A 5 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,560 Speaker 1: rated bonds. Through this realization, Milken and the firm he 6 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: joined out of graduate school, Drexel Burnham Lambert, revolutionized the 7 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:26,680 Speaker 1: way companies and new industries were financed and made Milkin 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: and Drexel wealthy beyond their dreams. However, the same competitive 9 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: nature that made Milk and millions ended up hurting him 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,280 Speaker 1: in the end. In April of nineteen ninety, after four 11 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: years of investigation and prosecution, Milkin pled guilty to six 12 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: counts of violating securities law, spent one year and ten 13 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:48,319 Speaker 1: months in prison, and paid a government fine of two 14 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: hundred million dollars, and put an additional four hundred million 15 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: in a fund to compensate investors. Both before and after 16 00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,680 Speaker 1: his incarceration, Milkin has been heavily involved in philanthropy and 17 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: now leads the Milk And Institute, among many other organizations. 18 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: He recently sat down with Carlisle Group co founder David Rubinstein. 19 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 1: They spoke on David Rubenstein's Bloomberg television program Peer to 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: Peer Conversations. You signed the giving pledge Green to get 21 00:01:15,680 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 1: away half your money. What did your children say about that? Well, 22 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: it's interesting. They've been involved in our philanthropic efforts since 23 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 1: they were young. And Uh, my wife, Laurie. Lorie defines 24 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: wealth is that she can buy any book she wants. Uh, 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: And so I think that's been instilled in our children 26 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: from the very beginning. You met your wife in high school. 27 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: We met in seventh grade, seventh grade, and you've been 28 00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: married for how long? Well, we just celebrated our fiftieth 29 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: Winnie anniversary. Okays a professor? Okay, so you didn't date 30 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: a round when you were in the seventh grade edition? Well, 31 00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: and who didn't really? We dated maybe once in the 32 00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: ninth grade. But you know, she knew who I was 33 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: and who she was. She was voted in high school 34 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:10,959 Speaker 1: the most likely to succeed. So I wanted to hang 35 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 1: around here as much as I did. But what were you? 36 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:16,559 Speaker 1: You weren't voted that I was voted the most spirited 37 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: friendliest at that time. So you grew up in Los Angeles? 38 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: Is that right? Yes. My father was a lawyer and 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: an accountant, and my mom was a homemaker, and yes 40 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 1: I got to work. Anyone who's the child of a 41 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: person has his own accounting firm. You don't you get 42 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: to work on balance sheets and tax returns when you're eight? 43 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:40,959 Speaker 1: Did you at the early ages where you are pretty 44 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: good student? Well? I was a very good student. But 45 00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: what they did instill on all of us is that 46 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: for us to have a meaningful life, at least everyone 47 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: had to have a chance in a meaningful life. And 48 00:02:54,400 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: if our children or our children's children, we're going to 49 00:02:58,480 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 1: have a meaningful life or a good life, then all 50 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:04,160 Speaker 1: children had to feel they had that opportunity, and that 51 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: was instilled with us. So you go to Berkeley and um, 52 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:11,400 Speaker 1: you're gonna major in science and be a scientist and 53 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: so forth. What happened? Why did you change? On August eleven, 54 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: what became known as the Watts Riots occurred, So I 55 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: didn't have to go to Vietnam. Their armed personnel carriers 56 00:03:25,480 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: on the street, the city is on fire. And it 57 00:03:30,000 --> 00:03:32,360 Speaker 1: took a while for me to convince my dad to 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: let me go and understand what was happening, because I 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 1: was convinced I knew everything, and I met a young 60 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: African American man who had sitting outside looking in a 61 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,000 Speaker 1: building that had burned down that he worked in. No 62 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 1: one would give any financial support to his father or 63 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: to him because he was an African American. And it 64 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: struck me that I thought I knew everything and now 65 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: everything that I believed a chance to succeed based on 66 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,839 Speaker 1: your ability. No, w your parents were not we went 67 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: to school, not your religion, not we were there a 68 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 1: man or a woman, that this individual had made a 69 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:16,120 Speaker 1: irrational decision watching the burning down of the building that 70 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:20,240 Speaker 1: employed him, and that he felt he wasn't part of 71 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: the American chain. So I went back to Berkeley, changed 72 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: my major to finance in business uh and was determined 73 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: to change that so that everyone felt that they would 74 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,599 Speaker 1: have access to capital based on their ability. Majored in 75 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 1: finance and then went right to business school at at 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:41,480 Speaker 1: at Wharton. Is that right, that's correct. You have the 77 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: highest grades in the history of the school. More or less, 78 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: there's that that happened. Yes, Okay, So you graduate from 79 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: Wharton in nineteen seventy and you're working for Drexel, which 80 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 1: is a leading prestigious firm. Then, but um it is 81 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: said that you discovered the idea or helped to propel 82 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: the idea of that investing in and what's called high 83 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: yield bonds was a better investment than investing in UM 84 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: let's say investment grade bonds. Is that more or less? 85 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: It is. One of the ways I was able to 86 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:14,760 Speaker 1: convince the firm was I took a look at the 87 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: stocks they were recommending, and most of the companies were 88 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 1: non investment grade. So here they're suggesting you invest in 89 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 1: the equity of businesses, but not suggesting you could buy 90 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 1: preferred stocks other part of the capital structure. It's you know, 91 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:35,279 Speaker 1: if we look at it today, David, you know the 92 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,880 Speaker 1: rating agencies about the lowest you can be rated before 93 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,680 Speaker 1: you go bankrupt, and then you get a D. Is 94 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:46,599 Speaker 1: the triple C. Well, let's think of three firms that 95 00:05:46,640 --> 00:05:51,359 Speaker 1: are in the news today. Uber companies worth tens of 96 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 1: billions of dollars, doesn't have a lot of debt relative 97 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: to its equity, Well, it's rated triple C. Your your 98 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: talking about Tesla doesn't have a lot of debt relative 99 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: to its equity. It's rated triple C. And or you 100 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: can go to we work the rated triple C. So 101 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 1: what what I discovered was quite often the future and 102 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: credit is rated low even though it's the future, and 103 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,320 Speaker 1: the real risk lies often in companies that we think 104 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: of his establishment or have paid dividends for a long time. 105 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 1: All Right, So you're doing reasonably well living in Philadelphia 106 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: and you go up to New York. You're commuting back 107 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: and forth. Well, the person I went to work for, 108 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: who is the chairman, got in a serious accident, and 109 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: so they asked me to go to New York and 110 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: set up the bond department in New York for the firm. 111 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:47,679 Speaker 1: So I had my two and a half hour commute 112 00:06:47,720 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: each way. And you're doing that at what age were you? 113 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 1: I was twenty four. You're twenty four years old, and 114 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:55,719 Speaker 1: they're having you set up their operation to lead their 115 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: effort in New York. Yes, okay, did you like try 116 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: to look older than twenty four? You know, you know 117 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:06,719 Speaker 1: it's funny you say that, David. And in nineteen seventy four, 118 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: I'm in hard for giving this talk uh to the 119 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: insurance companies, and a person said, you know, we have 120 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: a lot of young people coming up here. We generally 121 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: don't like to listen to anyone under thirty. I said, 122 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: I fully understand that myself, And so I was thirty 123 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: for a number of years. You know, so you told 124 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: people you were thirty. Okay. So, um, you ultimately your 125 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 1: father comes down with cancer melanoma, and you decide you'd 126 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: want to move back to be closer to him. So 127 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: you went to people at Drexel and said, I'm I'm 128 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: moving the operation to l A. Whether you like it 129 00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: or not, or is that how it worked? This was 130 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: an unusual period of time. Um, all these theories that 131 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,480 Speaker 1: I had at Wharton and at Berkeley, everything that I 132 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 1: had studied for from six to seventy four, I was 133 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: able to apply and all these theories turned out to 134 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: be true, and the modern capital markets began. But my 135 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 1: mother in law and had breast cancer and my father 136 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: had melanoma, and I could not solve the melanoma problem 137 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 1: from my father. So I didn't really get to Basque 138 00:08:23,480 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: and the son of your theories and finance and markets 139 00:08:28,520 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: and change that occurred because I now faced really the 140 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: first problem in my life that I could not solve. 141 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:39,560 Speaker 1: My father was dying, and I made the decision. We 142 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: had two young children that they needed to meet my 143 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 1: father and spend time with him before he died. And 144 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:51,839 Speaker 1: therefore I was either going to take a sabbatical or 145 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: I was going to move the whole department to Los Angeles. Okay, 146 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: so everybody moves out to Los Angeles and they fall 147 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: in love with the California lifestyle, I guess, and they're 148 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,320 Speaker 1: probably not wearing ties to work or anything like that. 149 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:04,760 Speaker 1: Is that true? Or well, they're not wearing ties to work. 150 00:09:04,840 --> 00:09:07,559 Speaker 1: But you know, I had the clock set on New 151 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: York times, so when you came in, if you came 152 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,319 Speaker 1: in at four and said seven, yeah, you know, psychologically 153 00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: he gives you a little boots you have to get 154 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: up at two to do that or something three. But 155 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:22,839 Speaker 1: and then but then at four o'clock you sent them 156 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 1: back to l Any time, you get your second win, 157 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: so you get him back to last. So somebody wanted 158 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 1: to start a new company, like Ted Turner or Rupert 159 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:33,319 Speaker 1: Murdoch or John Malone, they had to come to somebody 160 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,079 Speaker 1: like you to get money, and you would give them 161 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,640 Speaker 1: hi yel bonds. Can you explain how you kind of 162 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: invented hi yel bonds for people to get new companies 163 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: off the ground as opposed to traditional today venture capital. 164 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: I would take you back to seventy four. So what 165 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: happened in seventy The banking system had to save itself 166 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: growth companies. They were denied capital in this period of time, 167 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:04,160 Speaker 1: and therefore, once you saw the performance, the decision was, 168 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:09,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to rely on your financial institution for 169 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: access to capital, and so to de risk America, to 170 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 1: de risk the entire system. You want to have ten thousand, 171 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:22,320 Speaker 1: a hundred thousand institutions like your own at Carlisle, who 172 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,160 Speaker 1: could invest. You don't want to be dependent on a 173 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: handful of banks. In night, when the Asian crisis started 174 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: in Thailand, there were five banks that got in trouble, 175 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,000 Speaker 1: but they were providing the capital to everyone in the country. 176 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 1: So to understand the future, So if cable is the 177 00:10:42,880 --> 00:10:46,120 Speaker 1: future industry, of course it's going to be rated very 178 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,120 Speaker 1: low at the beginning. But if you can find the 179 00:10:49,240 --> 00:10:54,480 Speaker 1: most talented people and give them capital to grow, and 180 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: that was really the mixture. Let us go find people 181 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: that are talented. So when you mentioned Rupert Murdoch, Rupert 182 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 1: wanted to build a company. His passion for what he's done. 183 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: He almost lost his company when he was in school 184 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: in England and his father died and adelaide and they 185 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: tried to take his family company. So he remembered that. 186 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: But he wanted to build something. Ted Turner wanted to 187 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: build something. And so you're interacting Craig McCall. His family 188 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:29,439 Speaker 1: was in cable, was in radio, was in television. They 189 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 1: were willing to give all that up for seller. You 190 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: wanted to find that individual who had passion for what 191 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: they were doing, and if you believed in them, finding 192 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: great people on back him is obviously one of the 193 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,560 Speaker 1: great decisions. And so bringing capital to them they might 194 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,520 Speaker 1: be low rated. And there was only five companies in 195 00:11:52,559 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 1: America raided investment grade Sea. You can imagine, I'm coming 196 00:11:55,440 --> 00:12:00,560 Speaker 1: to Wall Street. I have umpteen million companies and everyone 197 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: else is focused on five and those five hundred don't 198 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: create jobs. Did you ever have somebody come to you 199 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: if you didn't finance them and they actually turned out 200 00:12:08,720 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: to be successful? Ever later that ever happened? Or I'm 201 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: sure there wasn't, But there were plenty where the idea 202 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: didn't make any sense, you know, I remember we had 203 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: a presentation on investing in in an oil of drilling 204 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: business and an oil exploration business, and they brought them 205 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: in and we wanted to see their data. And about 206 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: an hour into the meeting, I asked them what technique 207 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: they use close oology. And I think one on things 208 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: I've discovered over the years, if you don't understand something, 209 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: ask what it is. A lot of people don't ask, 210 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:49,400 Speaker 1: they don't want to show they don't know. But I 211 00:12:49,440 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 1: had never heard of close oology. And so their drilling 212 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: technique is they see where others drill and they get 213 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: as close as possible. There's no there's no geowag gee, 214 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: there's nothing going on. So we decided not to finance 215 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: that company. Okay, so you're at the height of your power. 216 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 1: You are the most important person in finance in the 217 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:12,679 Speaker 1: United States, I think most people would probably say at 218 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:15,319 Speaker 1: the time. And then all of a sudden, some people 219 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: didn't like what you were doing and investigate and ultimately 220 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: you leave Directel at a very important point in your king. 221 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: You might have thought that I was the most important person, 222 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 1: but you know, I don't view that world. The most 223 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,080 Speaker 1: important person was the person who is responsible for running 224 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: that business. We can help create the capital structure, but 225 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: the other person is responsible for the business. We can 226 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: coach him, we can talk to him. But yes, long 227 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: before I left, in the mid nineteen eighties, there was 228 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:53,839 Speaker 1: legislation introduced in America to ban the deductibility of entrance 229 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: for non investment great debt. So if you're one of 230 00:13:57,080 --> 00:14:01,280 Speaker 1: these five hundred companies, you're entitled to borrow and duct interests. 231 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: But if you're not, then you're not. We were so 232 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: surprised by the reaction of congressmen or senators. One told 233 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:17,679 Speaker 1: us that, you know, if their state has to sacrifice 234 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: to get rid of the scourge of junk bonds by 235 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: that time, they were junk bonds, uh, that they would 236 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: sacrifice at that time. So the idea that you were 237 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: going to deny capital two smaller and medium businesses who 238 00:14:33,720 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: were creating at this time a d percent of all jobs. 239 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 1: The was kind of reminded me of the nobility in 240 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: England with the mercantile class, where you went to the 241 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: king and said, Okay, we can no longer compete with 242 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: these businesses or the people, so therefore you have to 243 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: deny him access to Camp ultimately left the company and 244 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: you started different businesses, and then you came down with 245 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: prost cancer, you were told that you didn't have very 246 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: long to live? Is that right? It spread through my body. 247 00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: So I actually had to lay down for almost twenty 248 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: four hours and think about it. I had lost ten 249 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: relatives to cancer, and so I had to think, Okay, 250 00:15:17,240 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 1: what can I do um differently than they did. So 251 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: the first thing I decided was I'd stopped eating anything 252 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: except fruits and vegetables, this idea that maybe something that 253 00:15:31,480 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: I was eating was accelerating the growth of cancer. Second, 254 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: I reduced stress. I had just come out of an 255 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: extensive stressful period me versus parts of the US government 256 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:51,680 Speaker 1: and uh, so I started meditation and I had to 257 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: do something different to survive. I went and visited she 258 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: doctors in China, he ers from Russia, which doctors in Africa, 259 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: Indians in the northwest Amazon. Uh what did you conclude 260 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: that any of no more than the western doctors. I 261 00:16:11,880 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of faith in the healers. But 262 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: the one that I embraced was iravade in medicine from India. 263 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 1: And I moved a doctor and Iravated doctor into my 264 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 1: house for six months. And the herbs, the meditation, the 265 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: chanting ah and I took these hormones. I felt that 266 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 1: there was an opportunity here using immunology. UH to change 267 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: my outcoming need to accelerate research. Uh, if I'm going 268 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: to save myself or I'm going to have to change 269 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: how medical research has done. We created camp here and 270 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: the promise was, we're gonna double the money going into 271 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: medical research. We're going to triple the money going fross 272 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: cancer research, and we're gonna increase prostate cancer tenfold. But 273 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 1: today you you're um in remission. I'm in total suspended 274 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,359 Speaker 1: animation here, but I'm in you know, you could say remission. 275 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: I've now celebrated my year. The death rate from projected 276 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:30,440 Speaker 1: levels has followed by there's millions of men alive today. Um, 277 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: I can see the end of cancer as a cause 278 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:38,199 Speaker 1: of death with treatment. The changes that have occurred in 279 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 1: bioscience are so dramatic, particularly in achnology. What is it 280 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: that you did that helped to change the way we 281 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: finance health or look at it? I would say, first 282 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: you collected data. If you're going to accelerate science, it 283 00:17:54,040 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: has to be based on basic science. But first data, 284 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:03,360 Speaker 1: let's check your micro am let's sequence. Uh, your disease 285 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: if you have it, and then let's give you something 286 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,120 Speaker 1: that will work for you. We talked about health. Are 287 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: you an exerciser? Yes, I would say it's two thirds 288 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: what goes in and one third the exercise. And what 289 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:20,399 Speaker 1: do you what do you are? Your sports person or 290 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: you have just jim? What do you do well? Here 291 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: was one of my problems. Uh, when I was twelve. 292 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: I was five eleven. Now it's seventy two on five 293 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,520 Speaker 1: nine and a half, okay, And I did not grow 294 00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 1: one quarter of an inch from twelve. So I was 295 00:18:37,080 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: a star basketball player at twelve, the player of the year. 296 00:18:41,440 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: Then something happened and everyone else grew two inches and 297 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: I didn't. I went from center to forward, to guard, 298 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,040 Speaker 1: to the bench to the stands. Okay, let's talk about 299 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: other things you're doing at philanthropy. You've been very involved 300 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: in education. Why is education so important? When I was 301 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: in elementary skill in the fifties, only of jobs required 302 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: a skill. Today, whether it's a skill or a semi skill, 303 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 1: eight jobs require some skill, some knowledge. And I think 304 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: when we studied education in the nineteen seventies, what we 305 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 1: discovered was the United States was the most educated country 306 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: in the world, and so other countries have now caught 307 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: the United States and passed. And so yes we are 308 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 1: the leader and higher it and as you know as 309 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: the former head of trustee of so many of them today, 310 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,239 Speaker 1: but we are strained in many ways in education. So 311 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 1: our whole emphasis in our foundation was education, and that's 312 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: why it was launched. And it was really the education. 313 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: I got that we didn't focus on the schools and 314 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: for our employees as much as we should have. You 315 00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: look back on your remarkable career, any regrets in your 316 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: nancial career. Sure, there's a few people I wish I 317 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: would have never met Okay, or a few phone calls 318 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:10,159 Speaker 1: I wish I would have never returned. And but I 319 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: think also I regret that the American public didn't understand 320 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: almost every person is high yield junk. You know, when 321 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 1: things started coming from Japan in the sixties and seventies, 322 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,280 Speaker 1: everyone said they were junk. It's junk, And then all 323 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: of a sudden we felt by the eighties the quality 324 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: of their products and cars was better. Everything coming on 325 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: to China was junk. The American public didn't understand they 326 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: were talking about themselves. Sixty million jobs being created by 327 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,919 Speaker 1: non investment grade companies in the latter third of the 328 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: twentieth century minus jobs being created by investment grade companies. 329 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: And I think going forward, you know, I'm going to 330 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 1: devote a large percentage of my time here to the 331 00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:09,959 Speaker 1: American what I call the living the American dream. Now 332 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: you're creating a center for the American dream. So why 333 00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 1: don't we conclude with what do you think the American 334 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 1: dream is all about? I think the American dream, which 335 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 1: is so unique, is a chance to succeed based on 336 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: your ability. You're going to work hard, your knowledge, your insight, 337 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: which is one of the most valuable qualities. Now, I 338 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: can't tell you how depressed I am when I see 339 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: that of Americans under thirty. I think they're going to 340 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 1: have a better life than their parents. A long time 341 00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: ago it was of Americans. So why do they feel that? Why? Why? 342 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 1: Why do fifty of Americans under thirty think socialism might 343 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:54,679 Speaker 1: be better? In the free enterprise system, you can see 344 00:21:54,720 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: socialism and venezuela playing out, and so something is miss seen. 345 00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:03,840 Speaker 1: And I think, as I've been focused on it one 346 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: it's hope. What I see is a large percentage of 347 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: Americans don't see that hope. They have their student loans 348 00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: that are burdens for their entire life. Even if you 349 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 1: go bankrupt, you can't get real your student loans. We 350 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: have to eliminate student loans. We have to find another 351 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: way to finance college. Two. Someone try to take their 352 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 1: parents home in two thousand eight or nine or ten, 353 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,920 Speaker 1: or they lost their homes, so their interaction with our 354 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 1: financial system, they haven't really seen the benefits of it. 355 00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: We need to make sure that the financial system is 356 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,280 Speaker 1: working for them. It needs to and it should, and 357 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: it starts with education, and starts with health, and it 358 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: starts with access to capital. So for me, I'm going 359 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: back to where I was fifty years ago. Thank you 360 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 1: very much for doing that, and thank you for your 361 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,360 Speaker 1: time today and very remarkable career. Thank you, Muchell, thank 362 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: you David, Thanks, thank you, thank you must I, thank 363 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: h