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Speaker 1: and thanks Thinking Sideways. I don't understand you never know
Speaker 1: stories of things we simply don't know the answer too. Hi, there,
Speaker 1: welcome to do another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am Joe,
Speaker 1: joined as always by Steve and Deviny. Here we are again.
Speaker 1: How this happened? I don't know. It just happens every
Speaker 1: long time up and here it was. I think someone's
Speaker 1: been drugging us. Actually really weird. Yeah, this is kind
Speaker 1: of like mnesty. We're just there. We're trapped on the
Speaker 1: space station. We're forced to solve another crappy mystery every year.
Speaker 1: Explains my fear of space. Yeah, okay, let's talk about
Speaker 1: a mystery. This is one that you've heard of. I'm
Speaker 1: pretty sure this is brought to the world by Plato.
Speaker 1: Remember Plato, the Greek philosopher or not not the silly
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, I know that one. Yeah yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: student of Socrates. So I'm sorry, I saw accident. I
Speaker 1: know crazy, it's so great. So's your buddy. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: a good movie. Come on, man, Yeah, you know what.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to see that movie. I kind of
Speaker 1: love expectations, but actually it was really good. That's a
Speaker 1: good movie. Okay. Anyway, back to our thing, uh Plato, yes, uh.
Speaker 1: And the story came out in two of his dialogues
Speaker 1: with The first was to Mas, in which Plato told
Speaker 1: the story that had been handed down as the family
Speaker 1: tree from his great great great great grandfather Slim, who
Speaker 1: was an elder statesman in Greece. It had been handed
Speaker 1: down to Plato, had been handed down to Toms and
Speaker 1: the story it was handed down to somebody else. Yes,
Speaker 1: and the story. But you know, I think Plato itself
Speaker 1: himself heard the story. Oh that's right. Is the name
Speaker 1: of the thing, not the name of Sorry. Sorry. So
Speaker 1: Tomatoes is a dialogue between Socrates and a guy named Critias,
Speaker 1: but it's of course written by Plato, and Socrates asked
Speaker 1: Critias for a good story, So he tells the story
Speaker 1: of Salon's trip to Egypt two years before, because supposedly
Speaker 1: Critius heard it from his grandfather who had got who
Speaker 1: had had it passed down from his father who got
Speaker 1: it from Solon. But anyway, in Plato's words, Salon was
Speaker 1: the wisest of the seven stages um. He was obviously
Speaker 1: highly respected ancestor and all around great guy. But long
Speaker 1: before Plato was born, Salon traveled to Egypt and met
Speaker 1: with the priests in the city of Sais, and they
Speaker 1: told him the story of Atlantis. So that's our story
Speaker 1: this week. Atlantis due. So we're going to figure out
Speaker 1: if who really lived there was an aquaman or a
Speaker 1: sub mariner, which one was real and which one got
Speaker 1: ripped off by the other comic book line. Is that
Speaker 1: what we're talking about? Yeah, we will talk about that. Yeah, sweet,
Speaker 1: they will stole it from Donovan. Does either of you
Speaker 1: know how to pronounce the submariner's name. It's an A
Speaker 1: M O R and I never is it nam or.
Speaker 1: I can never name more. I always thought nay more.
Speaker 1: But there's nothing in there to make it an a
Speaker 1: other than the letter as going to say, other than
Speaker 1: the letter A. Sorry, I took us off track right away, Sorry,
Speaker 1: immediately immediately. It's what I'm good for. Yeah. The only
Speaker 1: thing manual labor back to our story that the reason
Speaker 1: the subject came up is Salon had asked the priests
Speaker 1: about antiquity and if they knew any ancient or history
Speaker 1: and what they already knew were in Greece and what
Speaker 1: I've said. I'm not going to quote them, but essentially
Speaker 1: the priests said that the Greeks are never anything but
Speaker 1: children and there's never an old man among you. And
Speaker 1: Salon was asked him what he meant, and the priest said, essentially,
Speaker 1: people have no history to speak of because you're always
Speaker 1: being wiped out by natural disasters. Yeah. So there would be,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe an earthquake and then a heat tsunami,
Speaker 1: and that would just wipe out everybody in the towns
Speaker 1: and the only people that would survive were the shepherds
Speaker 1: and then the hicks up in the hills who didn't
Speaker 1: know how to read or write, and so the civilization
Speaker 1: was essentially wiped out and go back to the Dark
Speaker 1: Ages and back to the Dark Ages. Yeah, and Greece
Speaker 1: did go through a Dark Age prior to at least
Speaker 1: one yeah, at least one. Yeah. Anyway, back to Atlantis.
Speaker 1: This supposedly happened nine thousand years before Solon's visit to Egypt,
Speaker 1: although there's some dispute about the nine thousand years and
Speaker 1: there's there are plausible theories that there could have been
Speaker 1: a transcription era. We you're talking nine thousand years what
Speaker 1: happened nine thousand years also solids what visit would have
Speaker 1: been about what sixth century BC, around sixth century BC,
Speaker 1: I think, And then it would have been nine thousand
Speaker 1: years before that years BC is when the is the
Speaker 1: story that they're talking about happening. Is Yeah, what the
Speaker 1: whole Atlantis thing happened? Okay? So okay, because that that
Speaker 1: wasn't exactly clear, so I just making sure I understood
Speaker 1: that part. Yeah, and uh, but of course, like I said,
Speaker 1: it could have been possibly nine hundred years, which makes
Speaker 1: it about somebody missed a decimal point. Somebody put it
Speaker 1: at an extra zero there. Yeah, And there was a
Speaker 1: Greek Dark Age is from which no written records exist,
Speaker 1: and I think written Greek immerged again with the Iliad
Speaker 1: and the Odyssey, which we're written. It's believed in the
Speaker 1: seventh of the eighth century BC, and we don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: that's the hard part with that is that we don't
Speaker 1: know exactly when they started writing versus the things that
Speaker 1: we found. That's always the difficulty with things like written languages.
Speaker 1: They may have been doing it for a hundred years,
Speaker 1: but on things that crumbled, Yeah, and so we can't
Speaker 1: place it. Yeah, it's yeah, but you know, I mean
Speaker 1: typically in times of what these people do is they
Speaker 1: will cast stuff in clay also, and those things are
Speaker 1: usually more survivable than than papyrus or whatever they were using,
Speaker 1: not if they gets washed away to see though, that's
Speaker 1: a good point. Yeah, they might be h I mean,
Speaker 1: who knows, you know what I mean, there might be
Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff down there under the water. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: or it gets crushed up. I mean yeah, that's how
Speaker 1: sand gets made, right wave action. Yeah, maybe your beach
Speaker 1: may actually just be like old crushed up stories. It
Speaker 1: could be. I'm never going to the beach again. Ruined
Speaker 1: it for me. This claim that there have been a
Speaker 1: previous form of written Greek, which is what the priests
Speaker 1: are saying, was news obviously to Solon, and also claim
Speaker 1: that there have been a previous Greek civilization was also
Speaker 1: kind of kind of news to him. It turns out
Speaker 1: the Egyptians at that time at least had better records
Speaker 1: on Greek history than the Greeks had themselves, because they
Speaker 1: weren't getting wiped out. They weren't getting wiped out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And they also had a high regard for the Athenians.
Speaker 1: They decided to tell Solon the story of the greatest
Speaker 1: thing that Athens had ever done. And this was pretty
Speaker 1: dark ages obviously, uh. And so the great thing was
Speaker 1: is way back in the day again, either at hunter
Speaker 1: BC or FIFTC, civilizations of the eastern Mediterranean came into
Speaker 1: attack by a mysterious see people and so that was
Speaker 1: Athens in Egypt, among others were essentially and see people
Speaker 1: were trying to conquer them and enslave them. And apparently
Speaker 1: they already controlled the western Mediterranean they see people. Uh,
Speaker 1: and these invading armies one of the control of the
Speaker 1: kings of Atlantis, and which the Egyptians described as a
Speaker 1: great island located outside the Pillars of Heracles or depending
Speaker 1: apparently Greek should be Gibraltar, right, yeah, yeah, the Pillars
Speaker 1: of Heracles. They most likely was Gibraltar, but we don't
Speaker 1: really know a hundred percent for sure about that. And
Speaker 1: also it's possible, depending on because of language and everything
Speaker 1: like that, it's possible that it was just inside I mean,
Speaker 1: typically it's said to be outside the Straits of Gibraltar. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it could have been inside And also, as I said,
Speaker 1: there's there's other places that are nominees for the pillars
Speaker 1: of Heracles also, so maybe it wasn't even Gibraltar. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's according to the writings, it kind of moved around
Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah it did, ye, which is weird. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it seems like the designation of pillars of Heracles was
Speaker 1: just whatever the limits of you know, navigation words, however
Speaker 1: far you could get. We've reached the pillars, pillars. We
Speaker 1: can't go past the pillars past those. Yeah. Hey, so
Speaker 1: I totally went by them. So we're now so they're
Speaker 1: out there somewhere that couldn't have possibly been the pillars,
Speaker 1: No pillars. Yeah, so what else do we know about Atlantis?
Speaker 1: Let's see here, So Athens went to war and single
Speaker 1: handedly defeated Atlantis and spared everybody from the slavement, so
Speaker 1: you know, happy ending and all that. But then afterwards
Speaker 1: there were violent earthquakes and floods in Athens, and in
Speaker 1: a single day and night, and I'll quote here from them,
Speaker 1: the Athenians sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis,
Speaker 1: in like manner, disappeared in the depths of the sea,
Speaker 1: for which reason to see in those parts is impassable
Speaker 1: and impenetrable, because there's a hole of mud in the way,
Speaker 1: and this is caused by the subsidence of the island. Unquote. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so yeah, that's that's so. That's a head scratcher, there,
Speaker 1: don't I'm not sure where these shoals of mud were.
Speaker 1: Maybe they've gotten washed away since I don't know. It's
Speaker 1: been a long time. It's been over a thousand years,
Speaker 1: several thousand years, if it's true. Yeah, it's been a
Speaker 1: long time. And I should note that after Critius tells
Speaker 1: his tale of Atlantis, Plato, putting words in Socrates mount
Speaker 1: was so great, smounce, excuse me, I sharees the reader
Speaker 1: that the story is true. Yeah, and and and so
Speaker 1: that was the tom Us. Next the next dialog ory
Speaker 1: Matches is the Critias, where he again recounts the story
Speaker 1: told the Egyptians or by the Egyptians to Solon, but
Speaker 1: this time Curtius talks about Athens in Atlantis and a
Speaker 1: lot of greater detail. So prior to the great disaster
Speaker 1: that wiped out Greek civilization, the Acropolis and Athens, you
Speaker 1: know that place where and all that. Yeah, yeah, that
Speaker 1: big old hill. It was larger, but apparently a single
Speaker 1: night of earthquakes and inundation washed away a lot of it.
Speaker 1: And prior to that disaster, the warrior class of Athens
Speaker 1: lived off by themselves on the north side of the hill,
Speaker 1: where they had dwellings, dining halls and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: There was a fountain or a spring which supplied all
Speaker 1: their needs for water, but that earthquake choked it off
Speaker 1: and it was no more filled up with debris. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm leaving out a lot of detail here, but you
Speaker 1: can all go read the critius also if you're interested
Speaker 1: totally on the international Yeah, yeah, but do remember the spring,
Speaker 1: Remember that spring? Remember it. That's a brief description of
Speaker 1: Athens way back in the day prehistory of pre dark ages,
Speaker 1: and that's in the Yeah, and then description of Atlantis
Speaker 1: is very detailed. Yeah, and in fact it's so detailed
Speaker 1: I'm gonna leave a lot of it out. But you you,
Speaker 1: luckily for us, you formatted this in some bullet points,
Speaker 1: so it's easy to digest. Yeah, there's there's a little bit,
Speaker 1: little nuggets of information. Yeah, so what do we know?
Speaker 1: What we know about Atlantis is it was created by Poseidon,
Speaker 1: that's the god decided. Yeah, and he created it for
Speaker 1: he's falling in love with this woman in Clito, and
Speaker 1: so he wanted to make a special island where she
Speaker 1: could be kind of isolated so other guys couldn't because
Speaker 1: he was jealous. Yeah, exactly. Well he was a Greek god.
Speaker 1: I mean they always were. They were very jealous, Yeah,
Speaker 1: they were. Yeah, So he creates this island. The island
Speaker 1: was about five states across. The state is uh, it varies.
Speaker 1: It generally is named after stadium and so it's the
Speaker 1: length of a stadium, and stadiums, of course varied in sizes,
Speaker 1: and so a state could be five feet, six feet,
Speaker 1: seven hundred feet about. So I picked the average, which
Speaker 1: is about six feet so that's yeah around there. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then he so he cut one circular channel which
Speaker 1: was which filled with water. Uh. And then and that's
Speaker 1: that was one statewide. Is this radiating from the center
Speaker 1: of the island. Is that where you're Is that where
Speaker 1: all of these numbers come from? As we start in
Speaker 1: the center of an island and then go out a
Speaker 1: state and then there's a ring cut. Yeah, Okay, picture
Speaker 1: it wasn't working. Yeah, it's like a target. It's a
Speaker 1: bulls eye. So the islands in the middle, and that's
Speaker 1: five hundred states or five states, okay, and then it's
Speaker 1: surrounded by a ring of water. This one stayed one.
Speaker 1: And then that ring of water isn't turned surrounded by
Speaker 1: a ring of land that's two states wide, which is
Speaker 1: surrounded by a ring of water that is two states wide,
Speaker 1: which is surrounded by Yeah. I know, it's confusing. It
Speaker 1: it's so much easier to just look at a diagram
Speaker 1: of it. Uh. And the third the third ring is
Speaker 1: three states and three states, and the outer ring of
Speaker 1: water is three states wide. And then yeah, and then
Speaker 1: beyond that, Yeah, there was a wall. Um, let's see
Speaker 1: the wall surrounded the entire thing, also circular about six
Speaker 1: miles out from the outermost ring of water, which I
Speaker 1: did a little math, and if the wall really did
Speaker 1: completely encircle the city, that would be forty seven miles long.
Speaker 1: It's a long wall. Yeah. Uh, you know, I mean
Speaker 1: the ancient Greeks were good with stone work. They could
Speaker 1: build walls fast, so maybe you know, it could be.
Speaker 1: Of course, these aren't the Greeks. What am I saying? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but people back in those days that was stone easily.
Speaker 1: And then a channel was cut through the rings and
Speaker 1: out to the sea, so they were all connected. They
Speaker 1: were all connected to the sea, so channel. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: apparently Atlantis was s sea level. That kind of makes sense, right, uh. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then between the outer wall, between the outer water
Speaker 1: ring and the wall, that was a commercial section of
Speaker 1: the city, apparently densely populated. And then um bridges were
Speaker 1: built over the channels so that, you know, if you
Speaker 1: were on one of those rings of land and you're
Speaker 1: on one side of the channel, you want to get
Speaker 1: to the other side, you don't just go all the
Speaker 1: way around, if you just go over the bridge. That's
Speaker 1: what bridges are. Four. Yeah, I know, So that was
Speaker 1: that was convenient. And then on the central island, the
Speaker 1: kings of Atlantis built a huge palace for themselves and
Speaker 1: also a temple Poseidon and Clito and the grove of Poseidon,
Speaker 1: which was also apparently really cool and had lots of
Speaker 1: nimpty trees. It also had hot and cold springs and
Speaker 1: stole by Poseidon because he was a plumber. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: guess so, yeah, uh. And then most of the buildings
Speaker 1: were and walls and everything were built of a stone
Speaker 1: that was red, white, and black. So that's a detail
Speaker 1: you you need to remember. Can I ask a question
Speaker 1: about that? So I never I never really got a
Speaker 1: clear impression of this. Is it there were red stones,
Speaker 1: there were white stones, and there were black stones, or
Speaker 1: is it more kind of like granite where it's modeled
Speaker 1: from red's too blacks to white? You know, I've never
Speaker 1: seen a picture of this legendary rock, but I'm in
Speaker 1: the descriptions. You know. Sometimes people were like, it was
Speaker 1: it was this, this and this, or it was this,
Speaker 1: that and this, and I never really found out a
Speaker 1: whole lot of about the rocks. Yeah, it's all three colors,
Speaker 1: by understand, it's all three colors in one rocky, so
Speaker 1: it's multi colored. Yeah. Adjacent to the city there was
Speaker 1: an oblong playing that was two thousand by three thousand states,
Speaker 1: which is two hundred thirty by three forty miles for
Speaker 1: those those of you were you lit mired in the
Speaker 1: old fashioned meter system's three hundred seventy by five fifty kilometers.
Speaker 1: There was a channel cut all the way around the
Speaker 1: plane for irrigation, which was criss crossed by other channels
Speaker 1: that were spaced a hundred states apart, and then um
Speaker 1: to the north. There were huge mountains. Water would flow
Speaker 1: out of the mountains and flow into those irrigation channels
Speaker 1: and so, yeah, good for agriculture and just a few
Speaker 1: other things things about Atlantis. It had large deposits of
Speaker 1: ur a calcum. I think that's how that's pronounced, yeah,
Speaker 1: I which is described as a metal more precious than
Speaker 1: anything but gold. But nobody knows what it is. There
Speaker 1: they have been besides Plato, there have been some other
Speaker 1: places nature manuscripts where they found mention of this metal.
Speaker 1: But nobody knows precisely what it is. Yeah, it could
Speaker 1: be it could be it could be copper too, I
Speaker 1: don't know, but it could be a lot of things. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Last of all, give a brief mention to the elephants. Yes,
Speaker 1: there were elephants in Atlantis and so, but I don't
Speaker 1: want to talk about that too much. I know that
Speaker 1: the description sometimes it's a little hard to follow, but
Speaker 1: there are drawings illustrations based off of this. Totally check
Speaker 1: them out. It makes a lot of sense once you
Speaker 1: look at that. But the bull's eye is essentially what
Speaker 1: the whole thing was. Yeah, a dark, giant dartboard. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just a big old god's dartboard, and eventually it became one. Yeah, great,
Speaker 1: mass was less anyway, if you if you are interested
Speaker 1: in reading more details, the Critious is actually online. You
Speaker 1: can just do a Google and you'll find it out there.
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, so I've mentioned Yeah, all of these
Speaker 1: I mean, all of these historic works are yeah pretty much. Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is awesome. Yeah. Uh, the life in Atlantis was
Speaker 1: pretty good for a long time because you know, there
Speaker 1: were these people were kind of descended from the gods
Speaker 1: because besides Mate it with his his woman and they
Speaker 1: had like tens five sets of twins and who became
Speaker 1: kings of Atlantis, you know, and so these people were
Speaker 1: all sort of had god blood in them and everything.
Speaker 1: But then you know, the story goes generation after generation
Speaker 1: that blood gets stand out a little bit more. But
Speaker 1: didn't they also I swear I remembered something about they
Speaker 1: kept subdividing the island for the next generation to have
Speaker 1: their own to own. Is that correct? Yeah, So the
Speaker 1: next generation from those five sets of twins got parts
Speaker 1: of the island and it just sort of cut overpopulated. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why they had to take to see and go
Speaker 1: out cocker of the land. That as his typical in
Speaker 1: these stories, the Atlantans lost their way, became more consumed
Speaker 1: with greed and lust for power and ye you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: and were warlike, and Zeus decided they needed to be
Speaker 1: punished so that they could see the errors of their ways.
Speaker 1: What Us decided people needed to be punished. He never
Speaker 1: does that. Never right now? Uh so we're still in
Speaker 1: the Critius. He calls all the guys together for a
Speaker 1: comfab Just as he was about to speak, the story ends. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the last sentence read and all reads, and I will quote.
Speaker 1: And when he had called them together, he spake as follows, unquote,
Speaker 1: not even not even a period. That's the first cliffhanger, right,
Speaker 1: there is a cliffhanger. Yeah, I don't know some pages
Speaker 1: got lost, or if Plato died, or if you got arrested.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure Plato invented the cliffhanger. That was it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was doing an intentional thing. Yeah, he invented the cave,
Speaker 1: didn't he. Yeah, that was the cave. Did you did
Speaker 1: you read the Republic? Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm I'm mostly
Speaker 1: making fun of things. Yeah, the cave well that's a mystery,
Speaker 1: but we'll tackle that another time. So that's that's the
Speaker 1: whole thing, I mean, the mystery of Atlantis. Was it true?
Speaker 1: So it's kind of an either or kind of thing,
Speaker 1: yes or no? Yeah, yes or no? It is a
Speaker 1: true or not. What do you guys think? There are
Speaker 1: people out to say Plato made it all up. It
Speaker 1: wouldn't be the first time he invented some sort of
Speaker 1: a Yeah. I think it's an allegory. Yeah. Though the
Speaker 1: problem with this is an allegory is it's kind of hard.
Speaker 1: It's not really clear what points he's trying to make
Speaker 1: with this story. Well the point the point comes after
Speaker 1: and when he called them all together he spake as follows,
Speaker 1: that's the I mean, the next part of that, right,
Speaker 1: that's when it brings it all together, and you go, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what the allegory was all about. He's never finished it.
Speaker 1: It was the seventeen book in the Wheel of Time
Speaker 1: series that tied it all together, but it never got written.
Speaker 1: Yeah it did. Yeah, yeah, I know, but no, I
Speaker 1: it's it's I personally feel like it's got to be
Speaker 1: an allegory and he was just drawing on references that
Speaker 1: he knew. I mean, he did things like that in
Speaker 1: the past. Yeah, yeah, you've done. Like I said, there's
Speaker 1: a cave in the Republic. But when he wrote, when
Speaker 1: he told the story of the cave, it's he makes
Speaker 1: it very clear that this is not real. It makes
Speaker 1: it very very clear. That's a it's an analogy and um,
Speaker 1: and it is to illustrate a very very basic point
Speaker 1: about philosophy and reality and the way ordinary people who
Speaker 1: are not philosophers see the world compared to how philosophers
Speaker 1: see the world. So, yeah, that's what spoilers. Philosophers are
Speaker 1: better in every way. Yeah, exactly. Here's but here's the
Speaker 1: thing is that when we think of the writings of
Speaker 1: really famous people that are considered to be master works,
Speaker 1: we never see or very rarely see the contemporary critique
Speaker 1: that they received when they first put it out there.
Speaker 1: You don't see that they were getting heckled and everybody
Speaker 1: was like, you shouldn't have done this, that was so terrible.
Speaker 1: And it's not till a hundred or a thousand years
Speaker 1: later people like, oh my gosh, this is really great.
Speaker 1: And the critiques, which were mostly verbal, never got recorded,
Speaker 1: so it could very well be that when he did this,
Speaker 1: I'm making this up. I'm telling you now, I made
Speaker 1: this up. Everybody was like, that was so dumb. That
Speaker 1: was the worst part of that story. Why did you
Speaker 1: do that? So he's like, okay, I we'll do it again.
Speaker 1: It's totally real this time. Okay, I mean it's possible. Yeah, well, definitely,
Speaker 1: I would. I would have to agree that he had
Speaker 1: to have he or somebody had to have embellish the
Speaker 1: story just a little bit because the idea of these
Speaker 1: uh this island surrounded by these canals and everything like that.
Speaker 1: I mean they were huge, and so obviously it would
Speaker 1: have had to have been some sort of a natural
Speaker 1: formation because we didn't have our Poseidon men couldn't have
Speaker 1: dug that aliens could have. Aliens could possible. Yeah, good point.
Speaker 1: It could be an alien charging station. We didn't know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have actually just been like, yeah, the landing spot,
Speaker 1: the outline is the outline of the spaceship. We figured
Speaker 1: it out, guys, Yeah, we can finish okay. Yeah. But yeah,
Speaker 1: And if there was one detail that that Plato made up,
Speaker 1: it was probably the rings because he loves circles. He
Speaker 1: was in geometry and all that stuff, and he likes
Speaker 1: circles a lot, so well, the other the other possibility
Speaker 1: is that he didn't make it up. Yeah, and frankly like,
Speaker 1: if he didn't make it up, then what happened to Atlantis? Right?
Speaker 1: Or is it? That's the next question? Right, is the
Speaker 1: next question. We'll talk about that in a minute. Okay, Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: here's here's what I think is evidence that he didn't
Speaker 1: make it up, that it was the truth. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: the truth, at least partially the truth, well based in truth. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Remember the spring on the Acropolis that was Yeah, that
Speaker 1: didn't exist in Plato's day. Well, okay, so how does
Speaker 1: that prove Well, yeah, because an archaelogical expedition uncovered that
Speaker 1: same spring in the nineteen thirties. Oh so it did
Speaker 1: exist at one time, but not when Plato was around. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it existed. It existed many many years before. And then
Speaker 1: and then they went into the Dark Ages, all writing
Speaker 1: was lost. And then and then solom goes to Egypt
Speaker 1: and the Egyptians tell him about the spring that existed
Speaker 1: that nobody knew that existed. Then is it actually documented
Speaker 1: that the spring didn't exist when Plato was writing? As
Speaker 1: far as I know, that it was it was found
Speaker 1: in the nineteen thirties, Okay, and there was there was
Speaker 1: not a spring there. Well, I think what Devon's getting
Speaker 1: at was there was there mentions of it another writing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, I guess the question is, like,
Speaker 1: you know, it would be pretty easy for him to say,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, and then this spring got covered up even
Speaker 1: though it was still there, and then it got covered
Speaker 1: up in the introim and then it was rediscovered. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't think it was still there because the way
Speaker 1: he told that, the way he told the story is
Speaker 1: there was a spring, but it was choked off. And
Speaker 1: I guess he's telling people in Athens and they would
Speaker 1: they would probably go they'd be like, wait, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: that springs there. What we're talking? Yeah, but this story
Speaker 1: is totally true. Yeah, okay, Yeah, good point. Okay, So
Speaker 1: that's interesting. That's a detail of the Egyptians told Salon
Speaker 1: that he and have known himself. Yeah. Yeah. I mean.
Speaker 1: The thing about it is is there could have been
Speaker 1: even after the win at the Dark Ages, there could
Speaker 1: have been stories that were passed down from generation to
Speaker 1: generation even without writing. Yeah, but if you're gonna tell
Speaker 1: the story, you've gotta tell the story of like you know,
Speaker 1: like the guts and glory and stuff like that. You're
Speaker 1: not going to talk about the spring on top of
Speaker 1: the acropolis. Probably old men sit around and just talk
Speaker 1: about stuff over and over. You might, Yeah, especially if
Speaker 1: you were a part of the warrior class and you
Speaker 1: had lived over there, and you're sitting there and see, man,
Speaker 1: you remember how great it was when we had that
Speaker 1: spring that was so sweet, that was high living gener
Speaker 1: Remember that story Grandpa used to tell about spring. That
Speaker 1: was the most boring story ever. Yeah, I think I
Speaker 1: think the warrior class all got wiped out. It was
Speaker 1: all It was all the sheep, sheep orders up in
Speaker 1: the hills who survived. Another another clue, A lot of
Speaker 1: clay tablets have been found in Greek ruins that were
Speaker 1: described with a secure non Greek language. It turns out
Speaker 1: though that it's uh these day, back to before the
Speaker 1: Greek Dark Ages, and the language has been named linear
Speaker 1: B and appear. It appears that that is an earlier
Speaker 1: form of written Greek. So there's linear A and linear B,
Speaker 1: which one has been deciphered. I want to say it's A,
Speaker 1: but I'm not sure. I love they had both been deciphered,
Speaker 1: and they weren't. No, I think only one of them
Speaker 1: have been deciphered in there there. I can't remember their ones.
Speaker 1: They're both related to each other. It's been a long
Speaker 1: time since I've read about linear and A and BI.
Speaker 1: Last time I read about it was what was that
Speaker 1: The Codebreaker? Remember that book? Ye? Yeah, that was the
Speaker 1: last time I read about linear A and B. Linear
Speaker 1: B has been deciphered. Okay, so it's A that has not.
Speaker 1: I can it's not important to the story. Just suddenly
Speaker 1: couldn't remember that. I know, it's hard to keep track
Speaker 1: of that stuff, but uh so this is another interesting detail.
Speaker 1: This stuff was buried, you know, long long ago in
Speaker 1: ancient ancient ruins, and there was no way that Plato
Speaker 1: knew that there have been a previous form of written Greek,
Speaker 1: and yet the Egyptians knew. So that's another interesting clue.
Speaker 1: And another thing is the story itself at the ending.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a down to ending because Atlantis gets there.
Speaker 1: There's just come up in the story, which is the
Speaker 1: way these things are Athens. Athens gets it too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: although I guess that that does lead a lot of
Speaker 1: credence to the fact that it was real, because natural
Speaker 1: disaster is like a huge earthquake or tsunami or something
Speaker 1: like that. You know, if it's a sea people that's coming,
Speaker 1: it's likely that if it's an earthquake that big, it
Speaker 1: would probably destroy other places like Athens. Right, so that's
Speaker 1: but maybe not Egypt because it's too far away. Yeah, yeah, different. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that when you're telling telling a parable and
Speaker 1: you're trying to illustrate a point, than you know, you
Speaker 1: want to have the good guys live happily ever after. Yeah,
Speaker 1: unless the point is it doesn't matter what you do.
Speaker 1: If you engage in war, you're screwed. Yeah. Maybe he
Speaker 1: was making and maybe he was making the point that
Speaker 1: life is random, and you know, even if you try
Speaker 1: to do good, you're gonna get smitten by the gods
Speaker 1: or smited by the gods. I like smitten smitten. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd rather have to get smitten with me smiting me.
Speaker 1: The chances are pretty good that was made. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: any gods out there listening, Yeah dude. Uh well. My
Speaker 1: last point is that the story has playto's ancestors Solon
Speaker 1: relating this information and also Socrates assures the reader that
Speaker 1: the story is true. And Socrates, of course, as we
Speaker 1: as we know, is Plato's mentor, highly respected by Plato.
Speaker 1: And I wouldn't it be kind of disrespectful to Salon
Speaker 1: and Socrates. Socrates, excuse me, you have to put lies
Speaker 1: in their mouths. So for a little expert on this issue,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk to Mark Adams. And I'm sure
Speaker 1: all you heard of Mark, but for a few of
Speaker 1: you that haven't, he's written a book called Meet Me
Speaker 1: in Atlantis, which came out a year to ago. I'm
Speaker 1: not sure when it came out about a year ago, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: which is a really good source if you want to
Speaker 1: learn more about Atlantis, because I mean, obviously who doesn't. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he goes into it a lot more details, So
Speaker 1: if you're interested in that, I would like to point
Speaker 1: out before we talk to Mark that he is actually
Speaker 1: a nonfiction writer. He used to work for Outside magazine.
Speaker 1: It's written another book called Turned Right at Rochu Picchu, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I just finished. Good book. But he's a nonfiction writer.
Speaker 1: He's not a crank. He's he's very skeptical of all
Speaker 1: this stuff. But it really it was great to talk
Speaker 1: to him. Yeah, no, well, yeah, Yeah, so asked the
Speaker 1: question of whether it would be disrespectful to uh, to
Speaker 1: Salon and to Socrates. Uh. We put that question to
Speaker 1: Mark Adams. You know it might have been. But again,
Speaker 1: you know, um, I don't want to go back into
Speaker 1: my like post structuralist terminology that drove me out of
Speaker 1: grad school in the early night. But you know, he's
Speaker 1: using a series of masks here. You know, he's he
Speaker 1: could be hiding behind Socrates to say something that he
Speaker 1: wants to uh, you know, play with. So we you know,
Speaker 1: we can't know whether he intended that to be real,
Speaker 1: or whether he you know, was using that as some
Speaker 1: sort of rhetorical device or or you know whatnot. Um. So,
Speaker 1: you know, if if we knew for a fact that
Speaker 1: this was intended as a piece of written history, yes
Speaker 1: it would have been disrespectful for him to put those
Speaker 1: words in the mouth of of Socrates or into the
Speaker 1: mouth of Solon. You know. But that's that's another thing
Speaker 1: that we have to deal with here, another layer, which
Speaker 1: is that written history in three sixty b C. You know,
Speaker 1: this is still new technology. This is you know, as
Speaker 1: far as the Greeks are concerned, this is technology that's
Speaker 1: less than a hundred years old, you know, Herodotus has
Speaker 1: has you know, the father of history has just started
Speaker 1: doing this stuff about a hundred years before, you know,
Speaker 1: writing down history rather than allowing it to be passed
Speaker 1: on orally. And when it's when history has passed on orally,
Speaker 1: it's done in the form of stories which have become myths.
Speaker 1: You know. So now from our vantage point, we have
Speaker 1: to decode those myths and and try to pluck the
Speaker 1: truth out. And this is you know, this is a
Speaker 1: lot of what archaeologists and anthropologists do. So, you know, Plato,
Speaker 1: through the character of Socrates, wrestling with this idea, you know,
Speaker 1: is written history true or is oral history true? Things
Speaker 1: that are passed down the story is true, and I
Speaker 1: think it's in the republic Um. No, it's actually in
Speaker 1: a different work, but I can't remember which. You know.
Speaker 1: Socrates comes out and and says, you know, look, I
Speaker 1: actually trust oral history more. I you know, trust things
Speaker 1: that are that are passed down not in writing, because
Speaker 1: you can engage with them, you can argue with them,
Speaker 1: you know, whereas written history is just sort of this
Speaker 1: lump right here and you can't you can't sort of
Speaker 1: you know, poke the holes in it. It is what
Speaker 1: it is, um, you know. So that's just one more
Speaker 1: gigantic problem sitting in the middle of the attempt to
Speaker 1: try to solve the Atlantis story. All right, So that
Speaker 1: that's my whole thing. And then those four things, the spring,
Speaker 1: the tablets that turned out, the the written out, the
Speaker 1: written at that was lost, the unhappy ending for Athnes
Speaker 1: which makes no sense, and also the respect issue. This
Speaker 1: makes you think that probably this was a true story
Speaker 1: at least in play those eyes at least, yeah, at
Speaker 1: least that maybe so long was told that story by
Speaker 1: the Egyptians. Yeah, whether they were pulling the wall over
Speaker 1: his eyes, well, that's possible. The thing about it is
Speaker 1: is they knew stuff that was true. Yeah, that's true,
Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, And the idea of a city disappearing
Speaker 1: is not totally crazy. There was an ancient Greek city
Speaker 1: of Heliki, which was wiped out by an earthquake and
Speaker 1: the tsunami. When you heard of those guys, Yeah, the
Speaker 1: whole thing was wound up underwater and then permanently underwater
Speaker 1: apparently got smeared. But the between the earthquake and the tsunami,
Speaker 1: the ground under the city basically subsided and it wound
Speaker 1: up in the water. Yeah, it did sink entirely, it
Speaker 1: really did. That was Yeah, that was a city of
Speaker 1: course that was not Atlantis. But these things could happen.
Speaker 1: Although some people that have theorized that Helicky was Atlantis,
Speaker 1: but total wrong timeline, So you're not lucky that was
Speaker 1: what three something VC. It was right around Plato's time. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: And some people have suggested that this might have been
Speaker 1: an inspiration for the story of Atlantis. That that that
Speaker 1: has been suggested. Although if how like he was wiped
Speaker 1: out while Athens did not get wiped out with that
Speaker 1: particular earthquake and tsunami. So that's why it's not a
Speaker 1: great Atlantis candidate for that and other reasons. Well, that's
Speaker 1: that's again saying that, I mean, this is you're saying
Speaker 1: that under the guise of the story is true. Is
Speaker 1: why you're saying it that way? Correct? Is that? Yeah? Okay? Yeah,
Speaker 1: because yeah, I'm just saying that it's not outrageous the
Speaker 1: idea that this city, you know, could totally be submerged.
Speaker 1: It's also entirely possible that I think we said this before.
Speaker 1: He's groat, he's picking and choosing things that happened in
Speaker 1: history and using them. Yeah. Another another place that used
Speaker 1: to be consider just be a fable. It was the
Speaker 1: lost city of Troy that eventually was found. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: used to be thought of just made up by Homer.
Speaker 1: But it's actually there. It's in Turkey. But is it
Speaker 1: it's that's actually Troy, right, we just think it's Troy.
Speaker 1: It's pretty widely accepted, but yeah, it's not absolutely. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and actually, you know, I should point out to that
Speaker 1: archaeology is a relatively new science. Yeah, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of a lot of stuff that they probably have gotten wrong,
Speaker 1: not to not to do any of our archaeological listeners
Speaker 1: don't know. Yeah, they know, they're they're they're making educated
Speaker 1: guesses based on information that they've deduced previously. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: so I'm sure they're getting a lot of a lot
Speaker 1: of it right, but probably not all of it. That's
Speaker 1: you know, we just gotta keep digging. So we're pretty
Speaker 1: much saying that Atlantis was real. I think that with
Speaker 1: a certain dety of fudging, fighting factory nous, little fudge
Speaker 1: factor in that you got to go to the fudge factory. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that sounds really good. Let's just pause this take a break. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're back. You two have so much chuck on your
Speaker 1: face it's gonna emphas up for the rest of the episodes. Okay, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: the rest of us will be a lot more high energy. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I didn't think that's mustache could get any bigger. But
Speaker 1: as my mother would say, it's like a child with
Speaker 1: a beard eating. Atlantis was probably actually not called Atlantis.
Speaker 1: It could have been called Tartessos or something else. There
Speaker 1: was an ancient city called Tartestos. By the way, There
Speaker 1: was uh whether the story was completely accurate in all
Speaker 1: the details. I'm sure it was not. The prittest might
Speaker 1: have been missing porn about some details. And then, of
Speaker 1: course the story was passed down for two hundred years
Speaker 1: and the internet generational game of telephone, because so you know,
Speaker 1: it's there's got to be some distortions, you know added yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: And then there's you know, translation nuances as well. There's
Speaker 1: also that, yeah, Egyptian to Greek and all that Plato
Speaker 1: English yeah, oh yeah, the English too. Yeah. Plato might
Speaker 1: have been balish a story a bit himself. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: so he was trying to describe an ideal society and
Speaker 1: so that there were some messy little details. We might
Speaker 1: have left some of those out. Uh, and we might
Speaker 1: have stuck some stuff in there. Just the biggest point.
Speaker 1: People tend to embellish. Yeah, that doesn't it's an easy
Speaker 1: thing to do. Yeah, we don't do it at all,
Speaker 1: but it's pretty easy to do. Yeah. Anyway, that's that's
Speaker 1: about the story. There probably really wasn't in Atlantis the
Speaker 1: story over right, Well, now we don't. Now we have
Speaker 1: to find it now that we've existed. Yeah, so this
Speaker 1: is the point where I tell you, guys, I get
Speaker 1: C six, so this is probably not the one to
Speaker 1: take on this expedition. Yeah, yeah, that's that's okay. We'll
Speaker 1: bring somebody else, Okay, Devon and me and some other guys.
Speaker 1: Here's what I know about getting seasick. You get over
Speaker 1: it after a couple of days, you do, Okay, cool,
Speaker 1: that's good. I've never when you when you pick my
Speaker 1: stunt double, make sure he's got good hair. That's all
Speaker 1: I ask. Okay, Okay, Yeah, I tell you. It's funny
Speaker 1: when you're going to go to an ocean ocean thing,
Speaker 1: and you know you're feeling fine and there's people leaving
Speaker 1: over the side, just heaving their guts outd It's like
Speaker 1: it makes me feel good. Yeah, me too. I like
Speaker 1: watching other people's software shout up. So where do we
Speaker 1: start looking for Atlantis? Yeah? I checked the Atlantipedia. Have
Speaker 1: you seen the atlant Have you seen the Atlantipedia? No? Yeah.
Speaker 1: This is the creation of an Irish guy named Tony O'Connell.
Speaker 1: He has a few lists of all the different places
Speaker 1: that we put forward as possible locations for Atlantis, and
Speaker 1: they're almost every place in the entire world has been
Speaker 1: offered up. Yeah. I didn't even I didn't even count
Speaker 1: all the places that were on the list, much less
Speaker 1: check them all out. There are hundreds of them. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: lots and lots of places. And by the way, I
Speaker 1: tell you, Connell is another guy who's not a crank
Speaker 1: or a crackpot. That Mark talks about him in his book,
Speaker 1: and he actually met up with him in Ireland and
Speaker 1: later on the Malta and he seems to have an
Speaker 1: admirable bit of skepticisms. You know, he's he he understands
Speaker 1: that when somebody says Atlantis was actually in the Blue
Speaker 1: Ridge Mountains on the continental United States, he's probably not accurate,
Speaker 1: but he'll probably added, yeah, he'll he'll put it there
Speaker 1: because it's the Atlantipedia. Everything goes in there that Atlantis
Speaker 1: related and yeah, so definitely worth checking out. Well, we'll
Speaker 1: post a link to that, or if you just want
Speaker 1: to go to Google to find the Atlantipedia, just type
Speaker 1: in atlantipedia'll come right up and boy, there's a lot
Speaker 1: of good information there there. There's several favorites that are
Speaker 1: out there, um and so one of the big clues,
Speaker 1: of course, it's the Pillars of Heracles, which the island
Speaker 1: was just inside or outside. It could have been the
Speaker 1: Straight of Gibraltar, but as we said earlier that they
Speaker 1: seem to have kept moving. And there's like, I don't know,
Speaker 1: at least twelve thirteen places that have been put forward
Speaker 1: as possible sites for the pillars. One is the Straight
Speaker 1: of a Cina, which is between Italy and Sicily, which
Speaker 1: would mean that the Atlantic Ocean in Plato's story was
Speaker 1: actually the western Mediterranean. That wouldn't be so weird, though,
Speaker 1: would it. It's not impossible. Another another candidate the straight
Speaker 1: of Otronto. I'm not pronouncing that correctly, I'm sure, but
Speaker 1: that's the gap between in the heel of the Italian
Speaker 1: boot and the country of Albania. And that would mean
Speaker 1: that the Atlantic was actually the Adriatic Sea, which again
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be so weird, yeah, yeah, or or something
Speaker 1: some people have said, maybe the Bosporus, which means that
Speaker 1: the Atlantic was actually the Black Sea. Well, and I
Speaker 1: know that somebodys go, well, that doesn't sound anything like
Speaker 1: the Atlantic. Well that's because the names have changed over. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And like say the Black Sea, for example, Well, that's
Speaker 1: just a big lake, right. Well, you know, when you're
Speaker 1: standing on the edge of it looking, it looks pretty
Speaker 1: ocean like, you know, it's pretty You can't see the
Speaker 1: other side at all. And at one time wasn't at
Speaker 1: one time connected to the rest of the ocean and
Speaker 1: with the Black Sea. Yeah, is that the one I'm
Speaker 1: thinking of. It's it's it's it's it's connected now. At
Speaker 1: one time it was not connected, that's what. Okay, it was, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it used to have a much different shoreline. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And then and then saddly that one day that the
Speaker 1: old land bridge breaks and boom they filled up with
Speaker 1: water real quick, and so they found ruins and that
Speaker 1: they found an ancient coastline down there and ruins on
Speaker 1: it and everything. Yeah, too bad for those guys. Yet
Speaker 1: no warning. At least when you'll live on a volcano,
Speaker 1: you kind of get a warning that it's gonna blow,
Speaker 1: except for the people of Pompeii. But they just didn't
Speaker 1: pay attention, apparently apparently not Yeah, or maybe just didn't
Speaker 1: get any warning. May or maybe they got a warning
Speaker 1: and they just said, well, you know, that kind of
Speaker 1: sucks the pack and move, So we'll just hope it's
Speaker 1: just gonna rumble a little bit. And then he's been
Speaker 1: doing this for twenty years. It's fine, Yeah, one blue.
Speaker 1: So we need to do we need to pick some
Speaker 1: places out. Actually, Mark Mark Adams picked out four places
Speaker 1: out of the hundreds, out of the hundreds, picked out
Speaker 1: four possible places. I think he picked him out. I said,
Speaker 1: we just places he wanted to travel. He never said that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a good guess. Yeah. We asked, We asked Mark
Speaker 1: Adams why he picked the four spots that he did
Speaker 1: out of the possible hundreds for to go to for
Speaker 1: his book. Well, you know, first of all, a lot
Speaker 1: of times you'll see locations for Atlantis that don't make
Speaker 1: any sense if if you you know, look at the
Speaker 1: original details. Assuming that Plato's story is real, let's start
Speaker 1: with that assumption, which is rocky to be certain. I mean,
Speaker 1: to assume the Atlantic story is real. First of all,
Speaker 1: you have to believe that a sea god named Poseidon
Speaker 1: created the the island of Atlantis. UH. So you know
Speaker 1: you're making some some pretty big leaps here to start with.
Speaker 1: But let's assume that it's real. It's a story about
Speaker 1: a sea battle between Atlantis and Athens. So you know,
Speaker 1: for for an ancient UH navy to be able to
Speaker 1: travel to attack Athens, it doesn't really make sense that
Speaker 1: it's outside of a certain area. You know, it's not
Speaker 1: going to be crossing the Atlantic Ocean, so it's not
Speaker 1: the Bahamas, it's not coming from uh, you know, Indonesia,
Speaker 1: as some people have said. You know, there's a guy
Speaker 1: out there with the theory that Atlantis was in the
Speaker 1: Bolivian Altiplano, which which is right two miles up hundreds
Speaker 1: of miles from the ocean. UH. And you know, I've
Speaker 1: been to the Alto UH and I gotta tell you this,
Speaker 1: it's not underwater. It is about the least underwater place
Speaker 1: you can imagine. Yeah, you know, so I I drew
Speaker 1: a you know, sort of a circle around Athens of
Speaker 1: of a certain distance. And then you know, Plato gives
Speaker 1: clues in the story. He says, you know, it was
Speaker 1: opposite the pillars of Heracles or Hercules is it's usually
Speaker 1: called Um. It was Um, near the land called Goddies.
Speaker 1: It was an island Um. You know, it was near
Speaker 1: the Pan Pelagos or the the Infinite Sea. So you know,
Speaker 1: once you you start listing these things, you get the
Speaker 1: sense it had to be in the Mediterranean a certain
Speaker 1: distance from Athens. And the four places that made sense
Speaker 1: to me um after a week of deliberations with Mr
Speaker 1: Tony O'Connell over in Ireland, were probably the most famous
Speaker 1: Atlantist site, the one that shows up on TV specials
Speaker 1: all the time, which is Santorini and island of Greece, Uh,
Speaker 1: the island of Malta in the center of the Mediterranean.
Speaker 1: There is a site just outside Um, the strait of
Speaker 1: Gibraltar in southern Spain. And then there's a spot in
Speaker 1: Morocco near the city that's now called Aga dere Um,
Speaker 1: also just outside Um the Strait of Gibraltar, but to
Speaker 1: the south Um and those are the four sights that
Speaker 1: went and explored at length. So that's how Mark did it.
Speaker 1: And one of the ones the one of the places
Speaker 1: he talked about in his book. And this is the
Speaker 1: number one favorite theory everybody seems to have. Uh doesn't
Speaker 1: necessarily mean it's scientifically all that likely, but uh, it's
Speaker 1: This is called the Minoana hypothesis, and this theory says
Speaker 1: that Atlantis was on the present day Isle of Santa Reini,
Speaker 1: or more likely on the island of Crete, which is
Speaker 1: seventy three miles south of Santa Meni, with an outpost
Speaker 1: on Santa Meni. The island itself. The ruins of the
Speaker 1: Minowan city named Acroteria have been found on the south
Speaker 1: side of the island of Santa Reni, and so that
Speaker 1: one's a little credence to. And they're pretty impressive ruins.
Speaker 1: I don't know these they're actually if you go online,
Speaker 1: you can see pictures of them. I didn't actually ever
Speaker 1: go look at the ruins. Yeah, and it's there's, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's some pretty cool pictures of the ruins out there.
Speaker 1: And then they're really impressive ruins, two or three story
Speaker 1: buildings and they had cobble streets and drainage systems like
Speaker 1: sewage systems and stuff. So a really sophisticated city. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: t bad they built their city on the side of
Speaker 1: a volcanic island, but uh yeah, yeah absolutely. Uh the
Speaker 1: island location location, yeah yeah, so was you know, was
Speaker 1: Santa Mini Atlantis. People like it because it's a circular
Speaker 1: island and it's it's circular because the middle of it
Speaker 1: blew out. It was a volcano and it just exploded
Speaker 1: ut Saint Helen's style. And uh, we didn't just be
Speaker 1: a little smoke in a little a little lava. Now,
Speaker 1: I just want to blew blew the majority of it away. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So and and then there's a there's a piece of
Speaker 1: it left. There's like a big crescent, and then an
Speaker 1: island out out from that crescent. And then and there's
Speaker 1: a cone in the middle that's rebuilding itself. That's volcanoes do, yeah,
Speaker 1: as all canoes do. And so that circular thing with
Speaker 1: the with the ring of water in another island in
Speaker 1: the middle of what is one of the things that
Speaker 1: really make people like Santaini as a candidate for Atlantis.
Speaker 1: That means he would have embellished the number of rings
Speaker 1: though most likely yeah, yeah, and also changed the size
Speaker 1: of them. Uh and and yeah, and made them like
Speaker 1: a cone is much smaller. But in the original story,
Speaker 1: the center part is the largest part. Listen, he was
Speaker 1: he was huge on Pythagoras and all of that geometry,
Speaker 1: So I mean it makes sense that he would have
Speaker 1: gone kind of kind of wild on that part. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and he liked threes and stuff like that, you know,
Speaker 1: And so yeah, three rings and all that. But as
Speaker 1: to when this happened, that the volcano was called theory
Speaker 1: back in those days, and they're various estimates about one
Speaker 1: at one off. Some say six seven BC, some put
Speaker 1: it at b C, and luckily was about nine hundred
Speaker 1: years before Salon visited Egypt. So um, of course, that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that Santorini actually is Atlantis. Yeah, and it
Speaker 1: is convenient. I mean, I think that seems like one
Speaker 1: of those things where they say, oh, nine, Well, you know,
Speaker 1: the story that Salon was told was nine thousand. It's
Speaker 1: possible they just added a zero on accident that fits
Speaker 1: conveniently with our estimations. That feels really convenient to me,
Speaker 1: do you think so? Yeah, Yeah, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: convenient stuff in this story. I was gonna say, we're
Speaker 1: going to be making that statement probably, Yeah, I'm thinking that.
Speaker 1: What imagine if Sarah had exploded millions of years ago
Speaker 1: and then the central cone rebuilt itself like and like
Speaker 1: like it's happening in Mount Saint Helens and even in
Speaker 1: Santa Maria today. We built step to a fairly sizeable island.
Speaker 1: Let's still got a ring of water around it and
Speaker 1: another ring of land, and then it goes dormant. Then
Speaker 1: time goes by, people show up and start building cities.
Speaker 1: So I mean, there could have been all kinds of
Speaker 1: like stuff going on on this island and then explode.
Speaker 1: It explodeed again, and you know that we got Atlantis.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. Yeah, but the cone would
Speaker 1: have never it would have always been a mountain, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's how cones. We built themselves as cones, right.
Speaker 1: So that's a problem for me. Um. I suspect the
Speaker 1: slopes would have been fairly steep, and that it seems
Speaker 1: like the views would have been awesome. But it does
Speaker 1: seem like that would be one of the things they
Speaker 1: would mention. It wouldn't be like well there was just
Speaker 1: this thing in the middle. They would say there was
Speaker 1: a mountain in the middle, and then there were rings
Speaker 1: around and let's let's let's remember though, we need to
Speaker 1: go back to who gave us the story. The story
Speaker 1: came from one store who delivered it in a very
Speaker 1: specific way. Now, which source the Egyptians, because the Egyptians
Speaker 1: had a thing for pyramids, so they would have been like,
Speaker 1: and there was an awesome pyramid and then I'm not
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about the Egyptians at all. I mean Plato,
Speaker 1: So he could have massaged it as much as he wanted.
Speaker 1: Thing with Pythagoras, you wouldn't think that he would be
Speaker 1: like really excited that there was a triangle there. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I still think he massaged to be circles. Yeah, maybe,
Speaker 1: I don't know, but that's something I didn't mention about.
Speaker 1: Acri tri Um. The city was actually not destroyed by
Speaker 1: the volcano, but it was all covered with ash, which
Speaker 1: is actually preserved it pretty well, which is cool. And
Speaker 1: they've only excavated a very small percentage of it. There's
Speaker 1: lots more ruins to be dug up. So let's hope
Speaker 1: the Greeks can get the economy back in shape, so
Speaker 1: they have some money for digging. That would be nice.
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is what hasn't been found in the
Speaker 1: city so far, which is dead bodies. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: possible that the island was evacuated before theory blew up.
Speaker 1: But if it's true, if this was if this wasn't
Speaker 1: an outpost, and it is believed that Equitia wasn't anoan city,
Speaker 1: then where would they have gone. They probably would have
Speaker 1: gone to Crete, which is where the Manoan civilization was,
Speaker 1: would try to go home. Yeah, yeah, and so that's
Speaker 1: kind of unfortunate. So you go home and you're just
Speaker 1: sort of relaxing and saying, I'm sure glad I got
Speaker 1: away from that volcano. And then the volcano goes off. Well,
Speaker 1: I guess what, you had a major tsunami there you
Speaker 1: are on Create, and well Create gets summitted by the tsunami. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and all by the way, that tsunami would have also
Speaker 1: would have also hit Athens. Yeah, I mean it seems
Speaker 1: like maybe that would be a reason for them to
Speaker 1: be attacking other city, right, you know, you go back
Speaker 1: to Crete and they say, no, no, we're full, We're full.
Speaker 1: You guys got to go somewhere else in your your
Speaker 1: home vacancy, right, yeah, and your home meanwhile, is experiencing
Speaker 1: these rumblings that you recognize as a precursor to something disastrous.
Speaker 1: So you think, all right, well we ought to go
Speaker 1: find the next closest place, and where's the next closest place?
Speaker 1: Well maybe ath So you go there and they beat
Speaker 1: you off, and then suddenly you know you your situation
Speaker 1: is dire and just all gets washed away. That's yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I mean I'm not opposed to that approach to it.
Speaker 1: If it is. I still think that if if Atlantis
Speaker 1: was real, this is the my highest kid, I would
Speaker 1: agree with that. That's Guy's good points. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: of course, and I asked for this aggressive See, people's
Speaker 1: um just believe the Manans are actually pretty peaceful desperate
Speaker 1: times desperate measures. Well there's that. And also you know,
Speaker 1: it's like, I'm not convinced because if they were pretty peaceful,
Speaker 1: then that that that would make them kind of historically speaking,
Speaker 1: really huge outliers. Yeah you think, yeah, absolutely, yeah, And
Speaker 1: so I I really don't believe that. Well, and there's
Speaker 1: also something to be said for you know, Victor's telling
Speaker 1: the story is that. You know, they say we were
Speaker 1: attacked when it's these people coming and showing up and
Speaker 1: saying help us please. Then you attack them, and then
Speaker 1: you get to write history and you get to say, oh, no,
Speaker 1: we were attacked. We had to kill them all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we had to slaughter them. That never happened at all
Speaker 1: in history rewriting history. Yeah, not at all. You're right. Actually,
Speaker 1: you are kind of rights not written down anywhere, You're right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: One of the one of the reasons that believe that
Speaker 1: they were peaceful is that they don't find a lot
Speaker 1: in terms of defensive construction on the island. So that's silly. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that's a silly reason to think someone's peaceful.
Speaker 1: That just means they're more aggressive, doesn't. It means they're
Speaker 1: attacking everyone around them before people around them are attacking them.
Speaker 1: But yeah, exactly. They believe the best defense is a
Speaker 1: good offense. You know, that's that's entirely possible. Also, you're
Speaker 1: on an island, man, Yes, it's pretty easy to see
Speaker 1: people coming. You're good at seafair warfare. There's no reason
Speaker 1: to build defenses around your island. Y. Yeah, you released
Speaker 1: the cracking and it's old. You just prayed a Posidon
Speaker 1: a little bit, and he's like, God, my descendants, they're
Speaker 1: so needy. Alright, fine, the wave will send the wave again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want my own cracking. The only problem with creating
Speaker 1: Santorini is, even put together, they're really kind of too
Speaker 1: small to accommodate that big plane that we were talking
Speaker 1: about that's two three create is only a hundred long.
Speaker 1: Of course, maybe if there were earthquakes, maybe parts of
Speaker 1: it subsided. Yeah, maybe there are small states or states states.
Speaker 1: Maybe there are small states. Yeah, maybe maybe maybe actually
Speaker 1: by stays even something else entirely and not six feet Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And by the way, I said, remind me, I gotta
Speaker 1: show you some some Google areas that created some interesting
Speaker 1: structures in the water, but just south of it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's probably an artifact of Google's process rather than
Speaker 1: actual reality. But interesting to take a look at it.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a head scratcher. So here this is
Speaker 1: a little off the topic. But I was messing around
Speaker 1: in Google Earth the other day looking for stuff that
Speaker 1: happened to be in the ocean. And have either of
Speaker 1: you used Google Earth recently? Not recently, Maybe this has
Speaker 1: always happened and I ever never noticed it. But do
Speaker 1: you know that the oceans move? They do. Yeah, if
Speaker 1: you look at the satellite images, it looks like there's
Speaker 1: rolling waves going across the water. It all. If you
Speaker 1: stop somewhere, it'll go for about five or ten seconds
Speaker 1: and then it will subside. I have no idea how
Speaker 1: Google does that. The cool I've seen you it's what
Speaker 1: is what is wrong? Holy crap, The waves are moving
Speaker 1: like it's a live picture, the coolest thing ever. Maybe
Speaker 1: Google's finally launched enough satellites. Uh no, I'm pretty sure
Speaker 1: they don't, because I was looking at some things that
Speaker 1: had obviously images from different times a day late over
Speaker 1: each other. So that's a pretty good theory. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: I said it's obviously a favorite for a reason. Uh
Speaker 1: it's so maybe parts of creative crumbled away or something.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Yeah, let's move on to our next one.
Speaker 1: This is also one of the ones that Mark picked.
Speaker 1: I picked that another one that he didn't pick, So
Speaker 1: it's we're not just cough be in his book exactly.
Speaker 1: And uh so he also went to Malta and this
Speaker 1: is also a very popular one. And I can see
Speaker 1: why because Malta has the oldest known ruins in the world,
Speaker 1: some of which do appear to be underwater because because
Speaker 1: there has been a lot of seawater rise in the
Speaker 1: past twenty years. What. Yeah, true, that sounds wrong. Yeah, nothing,
Speaker 1: that's happening. Yeah, it's true. It is flat. We're safe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're good. The water just runs right off the edge. Yeah. Actually,
Speaker 1: one of these days somebody to go down and pull
Speaker 1: that plug and the water will go down again. Yeah. Uh.
Speaker 1: Some Malta is and it isn't reasonable proximity, kind of
Speaker 1: south of the Strait of Messina, which we mentioned was
Speaker 1: a candidate for the Pillars of Heracles. It's been theory. Dear.
Speaker 1: I said, Malta used to be a lot larger, but
Speaker 1: that rising sea levels caused a lot of it to
Speaker 1: be submerged. And also in the scientists at the University
Speaker 1: of Malta did report that years ago Malta was a
Speaker 1: lot bigger and it was joined to Sicily via a
Speaker 1: land bridge. But of course every island and years ago
Speaker 1: was a lot bigger because years ago the glaciers just
Speaker 1: started to melt and so sea sea levels shot up
Speaker 1: big time because all that water was locked up his ice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have seen charts of it,
Speaker 1: but but thirty again starting a little while bad, I guess,
Speaker 1: I guess it was more like fifteen thousand years ago.
Speaker 1: It really shot up. Well we've we talked about this
Speaker 1: with the bearing land Bridge. I mean it was the
Speaker 1: same thing. Yeah, yeah, and so they leveled off and
Speaker 1: then and I don't mean totally leveled up, and they
Speaker 1: sort of leveled off about seven thousand years ago. Sea
Speaker 1: level rise. They've steadily been rising since then and more recently. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but they've they've been rising since then, but really a
Speaker 1: lot much sharply than they did in the past. Uh So,
Speaker 1: Malta probably was bigger than it used to be. There's
Speaker 1: another thing that makes it appear that used to be bigger.
Speaker 1: Maybe the islands were even joined, because there's actually three islands.
Speaker 1: It's Malta goes Oh and a very small one in
Speaker 1: between called Camino, which has I think like four residents
Speaker 1: or something. Uh yeah. There are there are cart ruts
Speaker 1: or what they call cart ruts all over Malta end
Speaker 1: goes O, which are these these grooves that are white,
Speaker 1: sort of like worn in the limestone of the island.
Speaker 1: In these places where the limestone is exposed, and they're
Speaker 1: always in parallel. They look like cart tracks, like like
Speaker 1: a like a sled or or or a wheeled cart
Speaker 1: or something like that. But they've been worn in there
Speaker 1: all over criss crossing the islands. And what's weird about
Speaker 1: him is it in places they go right off cliffs.
Speaker 1: Other places they go down into the water. And so
Speaker 1: that kind of makes you wonder. I mean, if they
Speaker 1: they're going down into the water, they're going to a destination.
Speaker 1: That destination must have been dry land at some point.
Speaker 1: Well that or you know, it's walking mermaids. That's a
Speaker 1: good point. It's top half fish, bottom half Humans's ugly.
Speaker 1: There's nothing to say that that was. That's not how
Speaker 1: mermaids are just saying, yeah, they drive cars, just like
Speaker 1: the rest of us. Yeah, but it does suggest to
Speaker 1: me what the islands used to be, bigger, possibly even interconnected.
Speaker 1: The interesting thing is that we know that limestone is
Speaker 1: one of the softer rocks, so wouldn't take too awful
Speaker 1: long for tracks to start show up if people are
Speaker 1: you know, if you've got route you take the same
Speaker 1: root every day, and to take that route every day
Speaker 1: for a hundred years. It's not as if when you
Speaker 1: walk across some really hard stones and you never make
Speaker 1: a dent in them. So that's the that's the one
Speaker 1: interesting thing about this island. It just happens to have
Speaker 1: the right stone. Yeah, and it is that has been
Speaker 1: inhabited by human beings for a long long time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: lots of those islands have another reason to think that
Speaker 1: Malta might be the candidate, the best candidate. There's a
Speaker 1: guy in Malton named Anton mssud who Mark mentions is working.
Speaker 1: Interviewed him. It's spent a little time with him and
Speaker 1: ms suit has gone back to primary sources for his
Speaker 1: Atlantish research, and you know, read all these ancient documents
Speaker 1: in Greek and stuff like that, and he found an
Speaker 1: interesting quote from a Greek name Wills of Cyrene, who wrote,
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I'm not pronouncing this, but I'm gonna go.
Speaker 1: He wrote, quote was the king of Atlantis uh, the
Speaker 1: island that once existed between Libya and Sicily and was submerged.
Speaker 1: This large island was known as Nicopolis Atlantica by our
Speaker 1: forefathers of Cyrene as well as by the ancient Greeks. Unquote,
Speaker 1: I don't want to give Mark a hat tip here
Speaker 1: because I lifted that quote straight out of his book.
Speaker 1: You didn't you didn't actually call this guy uh an interview?
Speaker 1: Now I didn't actually Okay, yeah, no, sorry, I can't
Speaker 1: afford it. Well, let's be honest. If you had called him,
Speaker 1: you would have said, and I called him and he
Speaker 1: hasn't called me back. Yeah, that's probably that's what usually
Speaker 1: or and I called him. But I don't speak Greek. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yea. I don't think. I think we speak Maltese
Speaker 1: on Malta. Uh. But of course the downside of the
Speaker 1: whole multi areas it's too small and it has no mountains.
Speaker 1: I supposed to say. Thing could be said for Santa
Speaker 1: Ridi and Creed. Also, fifteen years ago sea levels were
Speaker 1: about a hundred ten meters below what they are today.
Speaker 1: But if we takes Plato's timeline seriously and the story
Speaker 1: took place in hundred years nine tho years before Solon's
Speaker 1: meeting in Egypt, sea levels were about six lower than
Speaker 1: they are today. But so far there's not evidence of
Speaker 1: a sophisticated human civilization that old. But on the other
Speaker 1: other hand, I mean, maybe it's all underwater. You know,
Speaker 1: maybe there's lots of evidence. Well I think that, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: because there's other there's suggestions in other areas of the
Speaker 1: world that there were intelligent, you know, like really sophisticated
Speaker 1: societies prior that we've just forgotten about. So or it's
Speaker 1: been submerged because I mean, typically, you know, these the
Speaker 1: earliest cities were usually built on the edge of a
Speaker 1: body of water, usually the ocean. Well there's also now
Speaker 1: we're discovering there's a lot of red herrings in the ocean.
Speaker 1: Did you guys see that. I'll put this article up
Speaker 1: before around the time that this comes out, But there
Speaker 1: was something that people were pretty sure was in an inhabited,
Speaker 1: submerged place that had must have been above water at
Speaker 1: one time, and it had all these interesting structures and
Speaker 1: it looked like it was almost a flagstone pattern on
Speaker 1: the ground. And it turned out the whole thing, they
Speaker 1: just finally figured out it was actually a natural formation
Speaker 1: just because of a certain kind of the gases that
Speaker 1: were coming out of the ocean floor, turning the stone
Speaker 1: into dolomite, which then allowed bacteria to do these things
Speaker 1: to it. Like it's a total red herring, but it's
Speaker 1: one of those places where people like this has gotta
Speaker 1: be something real, and there's probably a ton of those
Speaker 1: all over Yeah, definitely, if you're looking for that stuff,
Speaker 1: you've got your work cut out for you because it's
Speaker 1: been down there and it's got stuff growing all over it,
Speaker 1: you know, and that's that's that's covered with silt in
Speaker 1: a lot of places. So it's it's gonna take a
Speaker 1: long time before we find anything useful down there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's gonna take a while, and then we're gonna find
Speaker 1: that that domed, bubbled city they're all living and still
Speaker 1: and it's the problem with it is too is like,
Speaker 1: you know, if it's above ground, you just send a
Speaker 1: bunch of college students out there with toothbrushes and the spoon.
Speaker 1: I really do that so easily in the of the ocean. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it doesn't work. No, it doesn't. So yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's expensive. Let's move on to another theory. This
Speaker 1: is there's somewhat popular one the Canary Islands. So they
Speaker 1: are beyond the pillars of Heracles, which qualifies them. They're well,
Speaker 1: they are kind of small, but they're also volcanics, so
Speaker 1: who knows, maybe they've blown up numerous times in the past,
Speaker 1: and they're a lot smaller than they used to be.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'm finding that my common thread for
Speaker 1: all of these are places that, like anybody would want
Speaker 1: to go. So they're good suggestions because anybody who's researching them,
Speaker 1: it's like, you know what, I really got to go
Speaker 1: to the Canary Islands out if it's Atlantis or not,
Speaker 1: and I'll come back in six years. Yeah yeah, and
Speaker 1: with some idea of if it's Atlantis or not. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would yeah. Yeah. When the Carthaginians discovered the Canary Islands,
Speaker 1: they found ancient ruins there, and of course the Carthaginians
Speaker 1: where themselves kind of ancients, so if they found ancient ruins,
Speaker 1: well really ancient, that's pretty ancient. There's also remember that red, white,
Speaker 1: and black rock that I talked about the modeled colors. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that rock can be found there. They are
Speaker 1: also natural hot and cold springs there, so yeah, that's
Speaker 1: one reason people are kind of lacking the Canaries. And
Speaker 1: then there's there's another theory out there that it wasn't
Speaker 1: just the Canaries but also the Azores, Madeira, and Cape
Speaker 1: Verde Islands altogether. Are just fragments of the original Atlantis,
Speaker 1: which should be pretty large. I mean, it was called
Speaker 1: the continent everything. But that's a lot of material. See
Speaker 1: that part again, the whole continent appear disappearing. It's kind
Speaker 1: of hard to swallow. Well, the evidence proves that. I mean,
Speaker 1: the floor of the ocean is very thin. It's not
Speaker 1: like there's a thick crust like there is underneath the continents.
Speaker 1: And there's nowhere that has anywhere shown that it could
Speaker 1: have had a continent. Plus, there's no um, what is
Speaker 1: it where two plate tectonic plates collide. Yeah, there's there's
Speaker 1: nothing like that for to have been submerged and then
Speaker 1: sucked unders there would be very obvious evidence if it
Speaker 1: was a little continent. Uh yeah, no, I think I
Speaker 1: think so too. That's kind of the problem I have
Speaker 1: with this. But but but if it was a you know,
Speaker 1: God made thing like we're doing in you know, Saudi Arabia.
Speaker 1: Now we're not Saudi Arabi im sorry, in the United Emirates.
Speaker 1: They're making these like you know, is island things. I mean,
Speaker 1: if you know, Poseidon was just making things like that,
Speaker 1: there's that could have submerged pretty easily. One of the
Speaker 1: most famous Canary Island advocates was Heinrich Hidler, you know,
Speaker 1: the famous Nazi familiar Nazi coming. Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 1: Uh huh. But the Nazis are interested in Atlantis because
Speaker 1: I thought that perhaps the Atlantians were the forebears of
Speaker 1: the German people, of course, and the reason was that
Speaker 1: the Atlantis were advanced, superior and awesome, so were the Germans.
Speaker 1: So there must be a connection there, right. The Nazis
Speaker 1: were really good at think finding something ing that like
Speaker 1: proved that they were amazing and manipulating the information to
Speaker 1: match what they wanted. Man, they were so kookie sometimes
Speaker 1: most Yeah. So we talked to Mark about the Nazi
Speaker 1: connection and here's what he had to say. You know
Speaker 1: what they had, They had this whole team, the Onitor
Speaker 1: but I think it was called put together by Himmler,
Speaker 1: And the whole point was it's very much like the
Speaker 1: first Indiana Jones movie Raiders. It a lost stark. They're
Speaker 1: looking for ancient evidence of this super Aaryan race that
Speaker 1: of course eventually became the most super race of all
Speaker 1: in their opinion. Um, you know, the National Socialists. And
Speaker 1: what's interesting is they had planned um, a big expedition
Speaker 1: to the Canary Islands, which is which is not you know,
Speaker 1: as far as possible sites go, it's not the worst
Speaker 1: one you could come up with, uh for the Fall
Speaker 1: of nine. And it seems that the reason they never
Speaker 1: got there is because the Nazis decided to attack Poland instead.
Speaker 1: So it's like, wait, just one more bad thing to
Speaker 1: come out of that whole era. But yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: they were the theories, the theories they were promoting, we're
Speaker 1: just completely nuts. I mean, going back tens of thousands
Speaker 1: of years and things like that. And you know, because
Speaker 1: stuff like that is interesting to a lot of people. Uh,
Speaker 1: it just it gives this tinge to Atlantis in general.
Speaker 1: That makes it sound like, you know, a subject that's
Speaker 1: only dealt with by crazy people. Um and I don't
Speaker 1: think that should be the case. Enough about the Yeah,
Speaker 1: enough about them. Um And I should also mention there's
Speaker 1: a theory out there that's also called kind of racist,
Speaker 1: and I and others really is racist. But it's called
Speaker 1: the fusionism. And it's a theora that much, if not all,
Speaker 1: the the early advances in technology originated Atlantis or in
Speaker 1: some place and then spread to the rest of the world.
Speaker 1: The reason it's controversial is it is it's sort of
Speaker 1: a put down of all these other people. It's like
Speaker 1: saying that these superhumans in Atlantis advented all this cool
Speaker 1: stuff and it went out to the whole rest of
Speaker 1: the world, and that's just filled with dummies. You can
Speaker 1: figure then you could never figure that stuff out, you know.
Speaker 1: And yeah, so that I don't really agree with the
Speaker 1: whole diffusionism thing myself, because some ideas are kind of obvious,
Speaker 1: you know, and people could separately conincidentally have the same ideas.
Speaker 1: It's not at all beyond the relevant reasons. Pyramids, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean these pyramids in the Americas. There's pyramids in Egypt.
Speaker 1: So what it's not that remarkable the concept when you
Speaker 1: think about it BOMs. Yeah exactly. I mean, hey, simple ideas.
Speaker 1: Another problem with besides the small size of canaries are
Speaker 1: outside the pillars of Heracles, but they're like almost seven
Speaker 1: hundred miles away from the trade of Gibralter. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's a lot of material to go missing. Don't know, Well,
Speaker 1: that's the remaining you don't know how close the outer
Speaker 1: wall or the plane was. Yeah, maybe maybe it was.
Speaker 1: What remains is the small pieces left is yeah, and
Speaker 1: the rest of it's all been smoothed and yeah, that
Speaker 1: seems unlikely though, Yeah, I don't think that's the way
Speaker 1: that everything works in that area. Yeah, let's go to
Speaker 1: another theory here. Cut these Spain. And by the way,
Speaker 1: I was just out yesterday doing a little a little
Speaker 1: white surfing on on street view and cut ease. And
Speaker 1: if I'd really recommend that you go out and you
Speaker 1: look at it, if you look at the area of it,
Speaker 1: there's a peninsula out in the front of the town
Speaker 1: in front of you by the Atlantic Ocean, and at
Speaker 1: the very very north end of that as like the
Speaker 1: old town, the old city, I'd really recommend doing a
Speaker 1: little street viewing in there because it's really cool. Is
Speaker 1: just because it's cool architecture, just cool architecture, and and
Speaker 1: really narrow streets. I mean some streets too narrow even
Speaker 1: for a car, and most of them are like you know,
Speaker 1: just one car a lot. Yeah, it's yeah, it's just
Speaker 1: it's just a really beautiful cool sound check it out.
Speaker 1: I really wanted. Yeah, that's a nice thing. If I
Speaker 1: can ever afford to go there, at least I can
Speaker 1: see it on street view I really would like to
Speaker 1: go there. It looks like a really cool place. Okay,
Speaker 1: cutt Ease, Spain Okay aka Gotties which is mentioned actually
Speaker 1: byplay though gotties, and so it's it's of course there's
Speaker 1: other places that would might possibly qualify as gotties also.
Speaker 1: But it thought that Atlantis maybe perhaps wasn't an island
Speaker 1: because apparently the Greek word for island can also mean peninsula.
Speaker 1: So this theories gained prominence in recent years because Caddies
Speaker 1: is just outside of the Pillars, and it's also in
Speaker 1: an area that's known from massive earthquakes and Tsunamis has
Speaker 1: large copper deposits, which may account for plates mentioned of
Speaker 1: our calcum. But is it round? Is it round? Well,
Speaker 1: that's the thing. It's there is no structure there that
Speaker 1: really looks around. There is an area north of Cadiz
Speaker 1: which is called the Douniana National Park, which is kind
Speaker 1: of a swampy bird preserved, fairly large area, and people
Speaker 1: claim to have found shapes in the ground from satellite
Speaker 1: photos that look like concentric circles, and apparently that the
Speaker 1: ground there has subsided um and it's kind of just
Speaker 1: like I said, swampy and so it makes that makes
Speaker 1: excavation pretty much impossible. Yeah. Yeah, so, and I looked
Speaker 1: at the satellite photos. I couldn't see these outlines, and
Speaker 1: people who also said they've seen some rectangular structure outlines too,
Speaker 1: I can't find them myself. Um, I found something that
Speaker 1: looks like Google on there, but yeah, well that's Google, people.
Speaker 1: That is the hard part when people try to use
Speaker 1: satellite imagery to find stuff, not that it hasn't worked before,
Speaker 1: but I feel like sometimes those were the lucky ones
Speaker 1: because a lot of people are looking and looking and
Speaker 1: looking and then just staring at shadows of trees and
Speaker 1: deciding that is this is actually a change in the
Speaker 1: structure of the Earth below it, And we saw that
Speaker 1: with the Phobos two incidents. When you look at the pictures,
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, you could draw an outline of like
Speaker 1: anything you want in that. You can see whatever you
Speaker 1: want in that, But realistically it's just shadows and craters
Speaker 1: pretty much. And that shows us how accurate Courtney Love
Speaker 1: was when she used it. Yeah, and Phobos, by the way,
Speaker 1: you're still an ugly little moon rude. Sorry, Phobos is
Speaker 1: never going to call you again. Actually, I think I
Speaker 1: think photos is pretty cool looking actually ended up with
Speaker 1: sort of way. Yeah. Uh So between Cutties and on
Speaker 1: Yana National Park that what's called the Bottle Keeper River
Speaker 1: flows into the Atlantic. Uh. And it is believed that
Speaker 1: in ancient times the river split before reaching the ocean,
Speaker 1: which created an island in what is today that the
Speaker 1: southern part of the National Park that could have been
Speaker 1: the island of Atlantas. And also, I should say there
Speaker 1: are mountains to the north, which is another key point.
Speaker 1: The one thing that just struck me that I hadn't
Speaker 1: really thought about before is that we all presume that
Speaker 1: everything that was done it was done in some kind
Speaker 1: of stone structure, when it could have actually been earthen ructures.
Speaker 1: So it could have been let's just presume that Plato
Speaker 1: was telling the truth about the rings but he was
Speaker 1: off on the scale. Well, then that could have easily,
Speaker 1: over a couple of generations been done by people just
Speaker 1: as an earthwork, and then when they stopped maintaining it,
Speaker 1: it goes away. Yeah. I mean, if if we're gonna
Speaker 1: go with this, it's actually just on a peninsula that
Speaker 1: happened to have a bunch of earthwork rings on it,
Speaker 1: and people are like Wow, that's really cool. I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm making this up off the top of my head,
Speaker 1: saying that Atlantis was earthwork or he's saying that there
Speaker 1: were earthworks built on this spot in the earthworks went away,
Speaker 1: but there's still sort of I'm saying that the real
Speaker 1: that Atlantis wasn't some giant city, but it was it
Speaker 1: was probably a town that had all these earthworks that
Speaker 1: the locals were keeping up. So when when Plato says
Speaker 1: they were these giant rings in the ocean and data
Speaker 1: da da, I'm saying, Okay, well, they're probably actually above ground.
Speaker 1: If if we're going to go in this it was
Speaker 1: on a peninsula theory, that's the only way I could
Speaker 1: buy it. Yeah, yeah, But but I could certainly see
Speaker 1: that too. The earthworks get smoothed by tsunami, because there
Speaker 1: there have been some big old tsunamis as part of
Speaker 1: the world and the coast of Spain and Portugal, so
Speaker 1: that could definitely knock knock them all apart and you know,
Speaker 1: sort of semi dissolved them. But yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: That's it's a good that's a strong it's considered a
Speaker 1: very strong candidate, But I don't know, And then there's
Speaker 1: one last one. Mark talked about Morocco. Also, it was
Speaker 1: a German guy named Michael Hoodner just did a bunch
Speaker 1: of like once the word, I'm taking a bunch of
Speaker 1: data analysis of all the various clues and came up
Speaker 1: with a site in Morocco, which is also and I
Speaker 1: don't know, did you read this book. Did you read
Speaker 1: the Morocco part? Yeah, I think I remember that part. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So this this is somewhat was this some miles inland
Speaker 1: though it is one of the problems with it, but
Speaker 1: it's got ruins built on concentric circles. He's actually actually
Speaker 1: found this site by via computer and data analysis. And
Speaker 1: then he went out into Morocco and there was just
Speaker 1: the one that's kind of maybe got Aspergers is ever, No,
Speaker 1: that's not hum that's the German. Okay, that's okay, they're confused, Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, I knew I've one was kind of credible
Speaker 1: and one seemed a little yeah, a little bit. But yeah, him,
Speaker 1: they're unfortunately, was killed in a bicycle accident recently, which
Speaker 1: is too bad. Suspiciously. Yeah, that's yeah. Well it's interesting though.
Speaker 1: He goes out there and he finds this city. One
Speaker 1: of the remains of some ruins of what appeared to
Speaker 1: be a city built on a site that had to
Speaker 1: contect concentric circles of you know, dips and rises, and
Speaker 1: the remains of these structures are made of red, white,
Speaker 1: and black rocks. But unfortunately the locals are carrying away
Speaker 1: all the rocks and there's really not very much left.
Speaker 1: So it's really sad. Yes, we've talked about this before.
Speaker 1: It's kind of a common occurrence. Yeah, yeah, it happens,
Speaker 1: and so it's really a shame. But so I know,
Speaker 1: probably maybe as I speak, maybe everything has gone who
Speaker 1: So it's but I don't think this was Atlantis anyway,
Speaker 1: because this one is miles inland. Then it's like hundreds
Speaker 1: of miles up. Remember we talked about how we had
Speaker 1: the rigs and the islands and everything, and then there
Speaker 1: was a canal to the sea. If that canal to
Speaker 1: the sea, it means the city has to be more
Speaker 1: or less at sea level, Yeah, you would think, yeah,
Speaker 1: otherwise you have to have a really elaborate lock system.
Speaker 1: Oh god. And also there would be that would have
Speaker 1: been a pretty massive canal and there would still be
Speaker 1: some evidence of it. Theoretically. Yeah, so I'm going to
Speaker 1: give this one a fail. But let's ask Mark, because
Speaker 1: Mark has actually been there, Let's ask him what he thinks.
Speaker 1: It's pretty high up, I mean, to have been hit
Speaker 1: by a wave. And we should point out that Plato's
Speaker 1: description in the Atlantis story is is not the island
Speaker 1: sink to the bottom of the Atlantic Ocean as is
Speaker 1: often you know, bandied about, but um, it was destroyed
Speaker 1: by earthquakes and floods in a single night. So the
Speaker 1: sight you're talking about in Morocco. The guy who came
Speaker 1: up with this idea, UM, Michael Hubner, who was an
Speaker 1: I specialist in Bond, Germany. You know, he decided that
Speaker 1: this sort of circular structure, um stone structure. UM. I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's like ten or fifteen miles inland from
Speaker 1: the Atlantic coast could have been hit by a huge tsunami.
Speaker 1: And the area has been hit by earthquakes and tsunamis
Speaker 1: frequently over the years. But yeah, it would have to
Speaker 1: be you know, a thousand foot high wall of water
Speaker 1: or something to get to that site, you know, could
Speaker 1: it be uh? And this is what Hubner proposes, you know,
Speaker 1: two or three ancient stories that were put together as
Speaker 1: they sometimes are, and remembered as a single myth. Um,
Speaker 1: maybe you know, it's possible. It's definitely possible. Um. You know,
Speaker 1: people love that theory because you know, we're in this
Speaker 1: age of big data. And what Michael Hubner did was
Speaker 1: he he found fifty one clues from Plato, and you know,
Speaker 1: he plugged them into this algorithm and when it spat
Speaker 1: out at the end, it pointed him to this one
Speaker 1: spot in Morocco. And as he described it to me,
Speaker 1: it was he's like, you know, six stigma, this is
Speaker 1: seven sigma. Yeah, I remember that from your book. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's impossible, you know. And it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, when you talk to one of these people
Speaker 1: who was like a pure you know, mathematician, it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you you're controlling the variables here, right, You're plugging
Speaker 1: in the data that you want. He's like, yes, but
Speaker 1: if it did not work, we would have an old set.
Speaker 1: All right. Well, so much for the Morocco theory and
Speaker 1: the other series. You guys, No, I mean, I I
Speaker 1: said it before. I still believe that Plato wasn't being honest,
Speaker 1: though he said he was being honest. I just I
Speaker 1: really feel like he was sort of obsessed with his
Speaker 1: descriptions of the perfect government that it doesn't it wouldn't
Speaker 1: shock me for him to just willie nilly grab things
Speaker 1: that had up and around and twist them to make
Speaker 1: them examples of good or bad for what he was
Speaker 1: trying to get across to his reader. Yeah, I tend
Speaker 1: to think that he was. He wanted overboard with his description,
Speaker 1: you know, because he's describing the perfect society and perfect government.
Speaker 1: But why did you need to toss in the elephants
Speaker 1: and the red and white and black rocksts? Was the Republic?
Speaker 1: Remember it was a much longer than these dialogues, and
Speaker 1: did the Republic? Because I've never read the Republic because
Speaker 1: thankfully I never had a teacher who was that cruel
Speaker 1: for such a long thing. So what you mean is
Speaker 1: you literally never took a philosophy course ever? Right, Because
Speaker 1: I don't believe in any the point is he went into.
Speaker 1: I'm sure he must have gone in some crazy details
Speaker 1: for that thing to have been that long. He couldn't
Speaker 1: have talked at a high level the whole time, am
Speaker 1: I right? Or yeah? Yeah, no, it's it's it's actually
Speaker 1: been so long since I've read it, I probably should
Speaker 1: read it again. Okay, Well, the point is, though, is
Speaker 1: that the way this story ended, he may have just
Speaker 1: been ramping up baby. He may have just been getting
Speaker 1: started to just go again and write some huge thing,
Speaker 1: and that was how it was all going to make sense.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. Yeah, maybe I don't know. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still thinking it was probably something of
Speaker 1: a real story. What do you think, Devan No, I mean,
Speaker 1: I think I agree. I think it was based in truth.
Speaker 1: I don't think that, you know, the concentric circles. I
Speaker 1: don't think that. I think there's a lot of stuff
Speaker 1: that was added in. And you know, part of that
Speaker 1: is just do you want to respect Plato for his authenticity,
Speaker 1: but also, when it comes down to it, he was
Speaker 1: a storyteller, you know. And artistic license, Yeah, there's some
Speaker 1: artistic license that you would take. But also, you know,
Speaker 1: I guess you don't know necessarily if the Egyptians took
Speaker 1: the artistics or Salon took the artistic license, or like
Speaker 1: who took the artistic license at one point. But I
Speaker 1: do think it probably was based in some kind of fact. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think so. Yeah, but I don't have a I
Speaker 1: mean a clue where it is. Yeah, no, serious, not really, No,
Speaker 1: I say it was a barrener just because I hate
Speaker 1: Aquaman's orange and greens outfit bikini bottom. That's why I
Speaker 1: never read that comic terrible outfit. All right, there you go.
Speaker 1: Last was real. You heard it from us, It's got
Speaker 1: to be real. Uh, we don't line, No, We're never wrong. Yeah,
Speaker 1: solve it every time. Yeah, it's just just a few
Speaker 1: housekeeping details here our website Thinking Sideways podcast dot com.
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Speaker 1: the merchandise, the merch We got a lot of merch
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, yeah, and so yeah, definitely check out the
Speaker 1: merch well, that's it. Oh and Joe, we'd be remiss
Speaker 1: if we didn't talk about Marks book. Yeah, yeah, Marks
Speaker 1: book Mark Adams. The book is called Meet Me in Atlantis.
Speaker 1: Came out in um, it's on Amazon. It's it's now
Speaker 1: in paperbacks, so you just came recently. Yeah. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: it's just still it's a really good introduction to the
Speaker 1: whole Atlantis thing, which is much bigger and more complicated
Speaker 1: than you. But yeah, he's a pretty good author or whatever.
Speaker 1: He kind of knows what he's doing. Yeah, good at
Speaker 1: his job. No, actually, it was, it was. It was
Speaker 1: a really interesting book. I really, I mean, I gotta
Speaker 1: be honest. I didn't ever read about Atlantis because I
Speaker 1: thought it was Cookieville, right, I was really. I was
Speaker 1: surprised because I knew Mark's previous book, so I'm surprised
Speaker 1: when I saw that he was writing about So it
Speaker 1: was very interesting. Yeah, and I think folks will enjoy it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. And he brings up a lot of good stuff,
Speaker 1: which is that there are serious scientists and people out
Speaker 1: there who are actually talking about Atlantis. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: not it's not just for nutcases. I used to fringe science. No,
Speaker 1: it's not fringe at all. They're actually in the southern Land.
Speaker 1: He actually went out and met a lot of really
Speaker 1: really interesting smart people. Yeah, very intelling. Yeah that's the thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's actually very intelligent people who are working on this
Speaker 1: and not the Kukvills. You think it's a dome city. Yeah, Aquaman?
Speaker 1: Is that because I hate Aquaman that's living there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's still it's still a submariner. Submariner, submariner. No, no, no, submariner.
Speaker 1: See what you say a mariner is a sailor when
Speaker 1: you say submariners, saying that's somebody who is less than
Speaker 1: a sailor. Submariners, submariners. This is this is a real point.
Speaker 1: If you if you are a submariner, you're not a submariner.
Speaker 1: That's the wrong way to pronounce it. You know what,
Speaker 1: I've just figured out what Joe is a total fan
Speaker 1: of Aquaman. Uncle boy until next week from Thinking Sideways
Speaker 1: Q goodbye, better everyone. A dramatic reading from Mr Grinning.
Speaker 1: Atlanta was a city land locked hundreds of miles from
Speaker 1: the area you now called the Atlantic Ocean, yet so
Speaker 1: desperate for the city's desire for tourism that they moved
Speaker 1: offshore becoming an island and an even bigger Delta hub,
Speaker 1: until the city over developed and began to sink. Knowing
Speaker 1: their fate, the quality people ran away, Ted Turner, Hank Aaron,
Speaker 1: Jeff Foxworthy, the man who invented Coca cola, the Magician,
Speaker 1: and the other gods of our legend, though gods they were,
Speaker 1: and also Jane Fonda was there. The others chose to
Speaker 1: stay behind in their porches, living with their rifles, and
Speaker 1: in time evolved into mermaids to sing and dance and ring.
Speaker 1: The new