WEBVTT - Steven Donziger: Oil and Its Aftermath 0:00:04.840 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.880 My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:17.079 hear their stories, what inspires their creations, what decisions change 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:23.600 their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Today we talk 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:27.880 oil and it's aftermath. In a two thousand and fourteen 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:31.320 opinion issued in the Southern District of New York, Judge 0:00:31.360 --> 0:00:35.400 Lewis Kaplan wrote, quote, this case is extraordinary. The facts 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:39.280 are many and sometimes complex. They include things that normally 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:44.120 come only out of Hollywood. Unquote. Like most stories that 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:46.720 end up in court, this is one with two very 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:50.880 different points of view. My guest today, Stephen Donziger, represents 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:55.480 one side of the case. According to him, when Texico, 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.640 later acquired by Chevron, stopped drilling for oil and the 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:03.720 m Zon Rainforest, millions of gallons of toxic waste remained 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:07.120 in its wake. For over two decades, a group of 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:11.720 Ecuadorians has waged a class action lawsuit over what environmentalists 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:16.280 have dubbed the Amazon Chernobyl One Review of Crude, a 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:19.520 two thousand nine documentary by Joe Burlinger about the case, 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:22.520 reads quote, if you like stories with real life good 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:27.000 guys and bad guys than crude is for you. Don Zigger, 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:31.160 as lead attorney representing the Ecuadorian plaintiffs, has been fighting 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.640 this fight for over twenty years. Chevron claims that the 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.240 required cleanup has already taken place and that the remaining 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:42.199 pollution is the responsibility of Petro Ecuador, the state owned 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:46.800 oil company. Stephen don Zigger says Chevron is waging a 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:52.120 massive retaliation campaign against him. But this story starts with Texico. 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.800 They created what is probably the world's worst oil contamination ever. 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:01.320 Um They dumped billions of gowns of toxic waste, even 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:03.800 by their own admission, into the streams and rivers and 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:08.280 soils of the Amazon rainforest. There were several indigenous groups 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:10.920 and farmer communities living in the area when this happened, 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:15.360 and they essentially poisoned the ecosystem, the water supply that 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.920 thousands of people relied on for their drinking water, for bathing, 0:02:18.960 --> 0:02:21.680 for fishing into, for their very survivals, which had been 0:02:21.680 --> 0:02:25.880 pristine rainforest down there before Texico went down and found oil. Correct, 0:02:25.960 --> 0:02:28.680 And that's exactly right. It had been pretty much pristine 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:31.760 rainforest until the mid sixties when Texico showed up and 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:35.640 found oil, and they had a huge concession from Ecuador's 0:02:35.680 --> 0:02:39.839 government fift hundred square miles. They built and developed ten 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.359 different oil fields. There were hundreds of well sites, about 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.080 a thousand of these open air toxic waste pits. They 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:49.239 just dug the dirt out of the jungle floor and 0:02:49.320 --> 0:02:52.840 dumped all the drilling MUDs which contained carcinogens, benzine and 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.639 the like um oil sludge right into the jungle. And 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:00.000 they built these pits on hills and generally they would 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.320 put pipes on the side and them and run off 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.000 the surplusage through the pipe down into streams and rivers. 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.000 So a big part of this is that the produced 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.680 water that results from drilling, which in the u S 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.480 I'm told their common practices to re injected back into 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:16.520 the ground into some safety. They did not do that, 0:03:16.560 --> 0:03:19.679 and they did not do it. They really cut corners 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:22.440 to the main lagoons of it everywhere, and and granted 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.240 this was an isolated part of the forest at that time, 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.639 but there were indigenous groups that have lived there for 0:03:27.760 --> 0:03:31.880 millennia that were living and prospering in this beautiful environment. 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:35.840 And they just dump toxic oil and oil waste right 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:37.720 into the streams and rivers that they relied on for 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:40.760 their sustenance. People were treated with a complete lack of respect. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:43.400 And those people that were there, the indigenous people there 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:46.280 in that part of Ecuador, none of them were included 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.680 if I'm if I understand it correctly in the development 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:51.960 of the area, meaning all outside labor was brought from Ecuador. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.240 They had a lot of high paying jobs or relatively 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.960 speaking for Ecuador, and they brought them and those people 0:03:56.960 --> 0:03:58.920 who were the local people were just sidelined to like 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.080 basket weaving or like some little drink. That's generally true, 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:06.160 except for one one task, which was to clean up 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:09.200 or purport to clean up the oil spills. Uh, well, 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.400 I want to go back to so Texico has the 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:15.680 find in the sixties and they developed the the oil 0:04:15.760 --> 0:04:18.599 fields there for like a twenty two year twenty plus 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:21.919 year period, and then correct me if I'm wrong, or 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:27.560 take me through what happens when when Chevron absorbs Texico. Well, 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:30.800 you know, first of all, Chevron knew when it bought 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:32.520 Texico and that it was not off the hook. What 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.560 had happened is that after we initially filed our lawsuit 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:39.160 back and way back. This is probably the world's longest lawsuit, 0:04:40.200 --> 0:04:44.000 I seem and uh. Instead of dealing with the problem 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:46.800 and dealing directly with the communities, Texicos went directly to 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:49.520 Ecuador's government and said, oh, we'll put a pittance of 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.679 money forty million dollars and you give us a release. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:57.160 But very importantly, the release did not release the private 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:00.320 claims of our clients. Our lawsuit is a private awsuit 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.240 brought by private citizens against a private company. It's a 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.040 civil lawsuit. This has already been resolved by multiple courts 0:05:07.040 --> 0:05:10.160 in our favor. But Chevron to this day, for public 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:13.279 relations and other purposes, still tries to raise this issue like, oh, 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.320 we cleaned up, we were released. I mean, first of all, 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:18.240 the clean up didn't really happen, And second, the legal 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:20.880 document itself does not release them from the private claims. 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:26.400 Where'd you grow up? Jacksonville, Florida? In Jacksonville And what 0:05:26.520 --> 0:05:29.400 your dad do? He was a small businessman in the 0:05:29.520 --> 0:05:32.600 in the television picture to business. And what did your 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:37.840 mom do? She was troublemaker? Yeah, my mom was was 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:42.280 an editor of a local newspaper for the Jewish community 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:46.680 in Jacksonville, UM and she was a substitute school teacher 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:48.560 and you know, spend a lot of time at home 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:51.240 with my my sister and I. She was a great mom. 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:53.120 And what was your childhood lack in terms of your 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:59.080 own political advocacy? Well, I social consciousness. I I developed 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.279 a social constient at a young age. At the world, 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:03.720 at a very young age struck me as a very 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:06.080 unfair place to a lot of people. When it bothered 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:09.640 me greatly, um my mom helped cultivate that. We went 0:06:09.680 --> 0:06:12.719 to protests in front of local grocery stores, you know, 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.520 and supported Caesar Chavez and the farm Workers Union. When 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:20.279 I was you know, a young ten, eleven, twelve years old, UM, 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.680 I met a a local elected official in my hometown, 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.760 Steve Pagick, who was a huge inspiration for me. He 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:32.280 was a really great politician who had a deep social conscience. UM. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.159 And as I became a teenager, UM, I took it 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.599 upon myself to really try to learn the stuff that 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:39.840 I wasn't being taught in school about, you know, how 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.080 the world was really work. For example, Oh, just the 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:47.000 the degree of of of you know, injustice, the you know, 0:06:47.120 --> 0:06:50.360 issues having to do with race, poverty, the stuff that 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.800 um that that that schools weren't really putting it be 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.440 four in terms of teaching kids. Um, your mother had 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.960 to do something with Chavez. Yeah, and what did you do? Well, 0:07:02.000 --> 0:07:04.719 we went to a grocery store and you know, we were, uh, 0:07:05.040 --> 0:07:08.599 you know, we basically organized a boycott of local chain 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.640 of grocery stores when Dixie and Jacksonville because they were 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:15.680 they were you know, you know, Caesar Chavas was trying 0:07:15.680 --> 0:07:18.760 to boycott the grocery store for various labor related issues 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:21.080 in California, later to the farm workers units. Old were 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.560 you then? I think it was about twelve or thirteen, 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:26.760 maybe you know, in that area. But but you know, look, 0:07:26.800 --> 0:07:28.640 I had a fun child and I don't want to 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:30.600 act like all I did was sitting around a protest, 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:34.280 which it was one of the man posters including you know, 0:07:34.400 --> 0:07:38.320 swimming red lines. I mean we did a lot of surfing. 0:07:38.360 --> 0:07:40.520 I mean we grew up near that beach. Um, you know, 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.080 I had I had a really healthy, active childhood. But 0:07:43.120 --> 0:07:46.360 I always sort of felt like I wanted to utilize 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:49.920 whatever professional talents I might one day develop on behalf 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:52.400 of people who were getting screwed over. It's it's interesting 0:07:52.400 --> 0:07:56.520 how people the people developed that sense of social injustice 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:58.880 very young. And you look at the world as a 0:07:58.880 --> 0:08:02.240 place where there are powerful people that are abusing powerless 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:04.840 people and you want to do something about it. Yeah, 0:08:04.880 --> 0:08:07.440 that's very true. And and look, I grew up in 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:09.480 an upper middle class family. I mean I had a 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.720 lot of opportunity. But I decided, you know, as I 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:16.200 went through college and then law, going to graduate American University, 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.720 and I wanted to be like in d C, near 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:21.640 the politics. And at that time I sort of was 0:08:21.720 --> 0:08:24.080 under what I think is now a mistaken notion that 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.360 like it was all decided in Washington. When I realized 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:31.320 actually decided other other places, Um, in courtrooms, yes, exactly. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:33.000 So I wanted to be in d C. And then 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:34.760 from there I went, I went, I was, you know, 0:08:34.840 --> 0:08:37.360 fortunate enough to get into Harvard Law School. I mean 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:40.479 I say fortunate enough because I met a incredibly fabulous 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.040 people there. Who who who do really that the goal 0:08:43.080 --> 0:08:44.840 when you were a you know, I mean, it didn't 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:47.760 even occur to me i'd be qualified, honestly to get 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:50.880 into a place like Harvard. I ended up getting, Um, 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:54.920 you know, I did well academically, Um, I was very 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.280 interested in the subject matter. Liked it there. How did 0:08:57.320 --> 0:09:00.439 you change at Harvard? You're in to you one of 0:09:00.440 --> 0:09:03.960 the top law schools in the world. What puts right 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:08.560 in front of you? Like this choice, and it's a fundamental, 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.600 profound choice about life. And because Harvard. You know, when 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:13.840 you go to Harvard and come out with a Harvard degree, 0:09:14.040 --> 0:09:16.800 especially at Harvard Law School, you can do almost anything 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.360 you want in the legal profession and in other professions. 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.120 Or you can do almost anything you want, you know, 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.640 fighting the power structure that keeps people down. So you know, 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:28.679 when people get out of law school, many of them 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.120 are you know, burdened with debt and and and their 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.520 choices can become limited because of the financial thing. It 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.880 takes a lot of I think, you know, commitment to 0:09:37.960 --> 0:09:40.959 this kind of work to to choose a path that 0:09:40.960 --> 0:09:44.200 that most people would consider to be complicated and hard. 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:46.200 I mean, for me, it never was. My first job 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:48.840 out of law school was working for the Public Defender 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:51.640 and Washington d c defending children accused of crimes in 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:54.920 d c um out of Harvard, out of Harvard, Yeah, 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.000 I mean, I made virtually no money, but I love 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.960 the job. I was in court and it was so interesting, 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:01.880 and I learned so much, I mean, skills that I 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:04.080 carry forward with me to this day and the work 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:06.000 I do now in Ecuador. So so right away when 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:07.600 you get out and do good for others versus do 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:10.480 well for yourself. Line, you've made a clear choice. You 0:10:10.800 --> 0:10:12.760 made a clear choice. But I also don't want to, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.880 you know, overplay it in the sense that I enjoy 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:19.160 the work. You know, it's not altruism. It makes me 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:22.520 feel good about myself and and and it's challenging on 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:26.120 so many levels. It's fascinating front about this one case 0:10:26.120 --> 0:10:29.120 where if you if you survive, you know, if you prevail, 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.160 you could make a lot of money. Absolutely, so yeah, absolutely, 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:35.520 I mean I want to make uh you know, Look, 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.400 I will let me put it this way. The purpose 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.320 of the case, the purpose of the case is not 0:10:40.400 --> 0:10:42.360 to make money for lawyers. The purpose of the case 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:44.560 is to help people who are being grievously harm and 0:10:44.600 --> 0:10:48.000 even being killed by cancers and exposures to toxins. However, 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:50.440 the model of the case that has allowed this case 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.120 to be I think great new ground, and the unique 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:56.600 aspect of this case to me is our ability to 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:59.920 harness what I would call the capitalist model, the free 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:04.439 market model in the law to bring in significant resources 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:07.439 from investors and others so we can get in the 0:11:07.480 --> 0:11:10.120 same ballpark as a company like Chevron, which you have 0:11:10.160 --> 0:11:12.320 to remember, they're not only trying to win the case, 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.160 they're trying to kill the idea of the case because 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:17.080 they don't want lawyers like us doing this kind of 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.920 work ever in the future. So it's important that the 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.160 money aspect is important. And and look, if I end 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.400 up collecting a fee, I don't know that I will. 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:29.520 It's never what's motivated me. Um the plan my personal plan, 0:11:29.600 --> 0:11:31.400 and I think other lawyers on the case feel the 0:11:31.440 --> 0:11:33.000 same way as to use some of that money to 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:35.240 leverage it back into the into the fight for social 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.679 justice around the world. I love that in this New 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.040 Yorker magazine article that I went back and read again. 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:44.760 Uh they quote in two thousand eight, a Chevron lobbyist 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.840 in Washington told Newsweek, we can't let little countries screw 0:11:48.880 --> 0:11:52.080 around with big companies like this, And then one Chevron 0:11:52.120 --> 0:11:54.439 spokesman said, we're going to fight this until hell Freeze 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:57.079 is over, and then we'll fight it out of the ice. Yes, 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.200 I love that quote. You know, it's funny the the 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.080 the psychology of a major company that Chevron that's almost 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.880 always gets its way around the world, and what a 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.640 company does in this case Chevron, when you actually harness 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.800 the power of a community based movement. Remember there are 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.679 communities on the ground in the Amazon, indigenous and farmer 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.479 communities that are behind this case. They have a democratic 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.480 organization down there that runs the case that hired me, 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:27.400 that hires other lawyers. The power that you can create 0:12:27.480 --> 0:12:30.800 when you organize properly at the grassroots level and you're 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.400 smart enough to connect that up with capital, that is, 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.720 you know, people who have money to back it. Understanding 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.360 that they can actually themselves make money off of the 0:12:39.400 --> 0:12:44.000 claim is what's absolutely paradigmatic shifting about this case. I mean, 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:47.480 because they've never seen a situation where a a Harvard 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.000 law grad and many other people. It would be a 0:12:50.040 --> 0:12:52.240 mistake to say that it's primarily me. I mean, there 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:54.040 are a lot of people working on the team. It's 0:12:54.080 --> 0:12:56.000 a team, but you know, I've been in the only 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.640 lawyer still left who was in at But what they 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.920 don't like is a guy like me and others who 0:13:03.080 --> 0:13:07.240 have access to the power structure, the elite hedge funds. 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:10.800 You know, classmates of mine who are in very powerful positions, 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:15.560 including the President United States, can connect up with you know, 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:18.520 people in the jungle who don't have any money. I 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.360 mean they their business model does not account for what 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:23.719 has happened here, Okay, which is why they're fighting it 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:26.000 so hard. Whether why they're spending so much money, why 0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:28.439 they refused to settle the case. How did the government 0:13:28.440 --> 0:13:30.760 of Equador evolve over the time that you've done the case, 0:13:30.760 --> 0:13:32.920 because if I read about different administrations that have come in, 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:35.800 some have been more disposed towards helping it than others. Correct. Well, 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.600 look um, you know what what Chermon and what Texico 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.000 now Chermon has countered on Latin America, but really all 0:13:43.000 --> 0:13:44.960 over the world is that they can go into a 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:47.840 place to a deal with the government, get access to oil, 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.839 and just work the system in their favor. I mean, 0:13:50.920 --> 0:13:53.719 you know, there was there was significant economic advancement in 0:13:53.760 --> 0:13:56.120 Equador because oil. The still is to this day. I mean, 0:13:56.120 --> 0:13:58.280 they're they're a member of OPEC. You know, oil is 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.719 a huge part of the national budget, even with prices down, 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.200 It's a very important part of what's allowed the country 0:14:03.200 --> 0:14:07.280 to develop socially. Now what we experienced. Remember I started 0:14:07.280 --> 0:14:10.280 going down there. I've been down there about two hundred 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.199 and fifty times. I used to go to Ecuador like 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.000 you would fly on the shuttle to d C from 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:15.880 New York. I mean I would go for a day meeting, 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:18.520 come right back. Okay. Luckily it's the same time zone 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:20.200 as New York, so it wasn't that and you know, 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.280 it didn't really shake me up too much. But I've 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.480 been there many, many times. In two thousand seven, um 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:29.000 man named Raphael Correa was elected president. He was a 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:34.960 former professor, young guy um very nationalistic, has a PhD 0:14:34.960 --> 0:14:38.920 in economics from US University, very capable. And over the 0:14:39.000 --> 0:14:40.880 last ten years he's been president, and I think the 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:43.720 country has changed. What's changed in terms of the Ecuador case, 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:46.080 in terms of the Chevron case, is you finally had 0:14:46.120 --> 0:14:49.520 a president of Ecuador who cared about what was happening 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.760 to his own citizens, these indigenous groups and farmer communities 0:14:52.760 --> 0:14:55.160 in the jungle, these impoverished groups. And in Berlin just 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.160 film he shows up. Yeah, Berlin just's film, he shows up. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.360 You know, So the first time you have a president 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:03.640 who goes down sees what really happened the oil is 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.960 visible all over the place, talks to the people and says, 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.280 this is one of the biggest outrages I've ever seen. 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.360 They were very often that guys like that, they're sincere 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.680 at the moment that they say that, yes, and then 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.480 things evolved when the how is he held up as 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.960 an ally? Look, this is the thing. Okay, he has 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.240 his job, we have our job. We don't work together. 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:22.080 We're not part of the same team. He's the government, 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:25.200 we're a private lawsuit. However, I think it's important for 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:29.000 the world to recognize that Raphael Correa, the president of Equator, 0:15:29.040 --> 0:15:31.120 the first person ever to go down there and see 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.960 the damage and talk about it, has stood by the victims. Okay, 0:15:35.000 --> 0:15:40.119 he hasn't interfered with the lawsuit. And what I decided, 0:15:40.240 --> 0:15:42.720 along with my colleagues in Ecuador, was that until we 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:47.840 convinced the country public opinion that this was a battle 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:50.880 between a country that had been completely screwed over by 0:15:50.920 --> 0:15:54.080 an American company, in that company as opposed to the 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:59.040 indigenous people only in Texico, we would never win the case. 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.040 So we spent a hell of a lot of time 0:16:01.920 --> 0:16:05.840 doing media work and and speaking at schools and university 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.320 You had been a journalist. Temporarily, I wasn't. I was 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:12.920 a journalist became. I worked in Nicaragua during the height 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:14.840 of the Concert War. I worked there from nineteen four 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:18.440 to nineteen eighty seven, saw young people covered the war. 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:22.680 Lived in Monaugua. I worked initially for United Press International, 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:24.320 and then I freelanced for a bunch of papers. The 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:26.840 Christian Science Monitor of Philadelphi inquired. I mean that was 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:29.840 back when people read newspapers, you know, And I made 0:16:29.840 --> 0:16:34.440 a living writing freelance stories out of graduated from Harvard 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.880 Law School. No, I had graduated. That was between time 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:39.960 in law school. I did that for four years and 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:41.800 then I went to law school. I mean that's where 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.560 I really learned about the culture of the Spanish. And 0:16:44.760 --> 0:16:46.280 you know, when I went to law school and got 0:16:46.280 --> 0:16:48.360 out of law school, because of that previous experience in 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:50.120 Latin America, I was able to sort of build on 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.520 that because I got to do legal work in Latin America. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:54.720 I loved the region too much, and there's I want 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:56.880 to sort of somehow figure out a role for myself 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.200 down there and ended up in this case. But did 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:03.680 you learn during that period that helped you later on? Well, look, 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:05.960 I mean, isn't it all part of the same power structure? 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.000 I mean, I mean what I learned. I mean, first 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.880 of all, in Nicaragua, I saw, you know, a battle 0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:18.600 for for social justice against a US back dictator. Um. 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:22.560 I saw you know, the sacrifices people willing to make 0:17:22.560 --> 0:17:24.520 to get the most basic things in life that many 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:26.840 people in the US take for granted. And I understood 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.000 what it meant, you know, in a way that I 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.800 could never probably get from living in the United States. 0:17:32.720 --> 0:17:35.439 And it gave me perspective. Okay, I mean from that 0:17:35.480 --> 0:17:38.040 point forward, nothing ever seemed too big for me. You know, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:43.320 nothing ever seemed too complicated or toobelievable, unbelievable like you know, 0:17:43.600 --> 0:17:47.600 I mean, I felt terribly lucky, uh, you know, to 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:50.240 to have grown up in a place where I had 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.840 the space, you know, to develop the way I've developed. 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:54.840 Because there's many countries in the world, as you know, 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.400 when people speak out, they get killed or they get 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.000 put in jail off. Yeah, and they get put off. 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:01.480 That just sort of that just sort of made me 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:03.720 redouble my commitment to wanting to do what I wanted 0:18:03.760 --> 0:18:05.240 to do with my life. You know, It's like I've 0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:10.680 got to do something. Why why? Well, look, I mean, 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:12.520 you know you could have done a little of that. 0:18:12.560 --> 0:18:14.159 You could have been people in New York, I know 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:15.679 where you made a lot of money and then you 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:19.439 had a dinner and you gave money to help. Why 0:18:19.440 --> 0:18:23.280 don't you do it that? Our lies would have been 0:18:23.320 --> 0:18:26.880 so much better with her? She loves you. You could 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:33.600 have done this, like you know, thousand the table, but 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.679 you didn't do that. Um, why you know, Look, I 0:18:37.800 --> 0:18:41.359 never wanted not to make money. I mean I like money, 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:43.520 or at least enough to be financially secure and to 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.359 enjoy my life. And and look, my wife and I 0:18:45.400 --> 0:18:48.200 both work and we make enough money to live relatively comfortable. 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.560 There's no complaints. We have one kid. We live in Manhattan. 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:52.679 You know, we're not wealthy by any means, but we 0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:55.080 live fine. We take a vacation a couple to three years. 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.919 We're okay. Man, it's all good. If we win the case, obviously, 0:18:59.520 --> 0:19:03.200 I will hopefully recover a percentage of the thing, which 0:19:03.240 --> 0:19:05.840 is two years if your life you've spent. And if 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.120 I'm able to get that, I'll be in a different position. 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:10.000 I mean, our goal, my wife and I have discussed 0:19:10.000 --> 0:19:12.119 this extensively along with the clients, and we want to 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:15.560 create an entity uh to to continue to do the 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:23.399 work in other places explore the Here's the Thing Archives 0:19:23.800 --> 0:19:26.720 where I talked with Joe Burlinger, the director of Crude, 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.320 on why he makes films about real events. I mean, 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:34.000 the idea of capturing human drama in all its ambiguous 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:37.720 glory as it unfolds before the camera is first of all, 0:19:37.840 --> 0:19:40.520 an incredible way to make a film, and secondly to 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:44.320 have faith. Take a listen that Here's the Thing dot org. 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:56.120 This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 0:19:57.640 --> 0:20:01.520 My guest today is Stephen Donzigger, the lawyer who represents 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:05.359 a group of Ecuadorian people in a landmark, decades long 0:20:05.440 --> 0:20:10.040 class action lawsuit against Chevron. The case has been fought 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:13.439 both in Ecuador and the United States. In two thousand 0:20:13.480 --> 0:20:16.639 and eleven, Donzigger one in Ecuador, and it was a 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.960 big win, resulting in a nine point five billion dollar 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:24.440 judgment against Chevron. However, three years later in New York, 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.439 federal Judge Lewis Kaplan declared that this judgment could not 0:20:27.480 --> 0:20:30.679 be enforced in the United States due to what Kaplan 0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:34.680 described as quote dishonest and corrupt measures of Donziger's team 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:37.680 that led to the verdict in Ecuador. Don Zigger is 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:42.760 currently appealing the Caplan decision. If don Zigger prevails and 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:46.200 Chevron pays, he could see a large amount of cash, 0:20:46.560 --> 0:20:49.679 although that wasn't the goal. Look, I never did this 0:20:49.720 --> 0:20:51.600 for the money. I'm thrilled to be able to do 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:55.280 it and make enough money to live, you know, relatively comfortably. Um. 0:20:55.320 --> 0:20:57.040 I do want the money though, if I can get it, 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:58.879 because I wanted to continue to do this work and 0:20:58.920 --> 0:21:00.960 train in fund of the lawyers to do this work 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:02.560 around the world. I mean, I want to help create 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:06.480 new capacity on the progressive side of the law to 0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:09.520