1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the thing, 2 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:12,880 Speaker 1: My chance to talk with artists, policymakers, and performers, to 3 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,079 Speaker 1: hear their stories, what inspires their creations, what decisions change 4 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:23,600 Speaker 1: their careers, what relationships influenced their work. Today we talk 5 00:00:23,680 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: oil and it's aftermath. In a two thousand and fourteen 6 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,320 Speaker 1: opinion issued in the Southern District of New York, Judge 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 1: Lewis Kaplan wrote, quote, this case is extraordinary. The facts 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: are many and sometimes complex. They include things that normally 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: come only out of Hollywood. Unquote. Like most stories that 10 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: end up in court, this is one with two very 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: different points of view. My guest today, Stephen Donziger, represents 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: one side of the case. According to him, when Texico, 13 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: later acquired by Chevron, stopped drilling for oil and the 14 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: m Zon Rainforest, millions of gallons of toxic waste remained 15 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 1: in its wake. For over two decades, a group of 16 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: Ecuadorians has waged a class action lawsuit over what environmentalists 17 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: have dubbed the Amazon Chernobyl One Review of Crude, a 18 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 1: two thousand nine documentary by Joe Burlinger about the case, 19 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: reads quote, if you like stories with real life good 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: guys and bad guys than crude is for you. Don Zigger, 21 00:01:27,160 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: as lead attorney representing the Ecuadorian plaintiffs, has been fighting 22 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: this fight for over twenty years. Chevron claims that the 23 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: required cleanup has already taken place and that the remaining 24 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:42,199 Speaker 1: pollution is the responsibility of Petro Ecuador, the state owned 25 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: oil company. Stephen don Zigger says Chevron is waging a 26 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: massive retaliation campaign against him. But this story starts with Texico. 27 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: They created what is probably the world's worst oil contamination ever. 28 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: Um They dumped billions of gowns of toxic waste, even 29 00:02:01,360 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: by their own admission, into the streams and rivers and 30 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: soils of the Amazon rainforest. There were several indigenous groups 31 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:10,920 Speaker 1: and farmer communities living in the area when this happened, 32 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: and they essentially poisoned the ecosystem, the water supply that 33 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,920 Speaker 1: thousands of people relied on for their drinking water, for bathing, 34 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: for fishing into, for their very survivals, which had been 35 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: pristine rainforest down there before Texico went down and found oil. Correct, 36 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: And that's exactly right. It had been pretty much pristine 37 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: rainforest until the mid sixties when Texico showed up and 38 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 1: found oil, and they had a huge concession from Ecuador's 39 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:39,839 Speaker 1: government fift hundred square miles. They built and developed ten 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: different oil fields. There were hundreds of well sites, about 41 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 1: a thousand of these open air toxic waste pits. They 42 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 1: just dug the dirt out of the jungle floor and 43 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: dumped all the drilling MUDs which contained carcinogens, benzine and 44 00:02:52,840 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: the like um oil sludge right into the jungle. And 45 00:02:56,760 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: they built these pits on hills and generally they would 46 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: put pipes on the side and them and run off 47 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: the surplusage through the pipe down into streams and rivers. 48 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,000 Speaker 1: So a big part of this is that the produced 49 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: water that results from drilling, which in the u S 50 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:14,480 Speaker 1: I'm told their common practices to re injected back into 51 00:03:14,480 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: the ground into some safety. They did not do that, 52 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,679 Speaker 1: and they did not do it. They really cut corners 53 00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,440 Speaker 1: to the main lagoons of it everywhere, and and granted 54 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: this was an isolated part of the forest at that time, 55 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: but there were indigenous groups that have lived there for 56 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: millennia that were living and prospering in this beautiful environment. 57 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: And they just dump toxic oil and oil waste right 58 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: into the streams and rivers that they relied on for 59 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 1: their sustenance. People were treated with a complete lack of respect. 60 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 1: And those people that were there, the indigenous people there 61 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: in that part of Ecuador, none of them were included 62 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,680 Speaker 1: if I'm if I understand it correctly in the development 63 00:03:48,680 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: of the area, meaning all outside labor was brought from Ecuador. 64 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: They had a lot of high paying jobs or relatively 65 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: speaking for Ecuador, and they brought them and those people 66 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 1: who were the local people were just sidelined to like 67 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: basket weaving or like some little drink. That's generally true, 68 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: except for one one task, which was to clean up 69 00:04:06,240 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 1: or purport to clean up the oil spills. Uh, well, 70 00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: I want to go back to so Texico has the 71 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: find in the sixties and they developed the the oil 72 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,599 Speaker 1: fields there for like a twenty two year twenty plus 73 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: year period, and then correct me if I'm wrong, or 74 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:27,560 Speaker 1: take me through what happens when when Chevron absorbs Texico. Well, 75 00:04:28,040 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: you know, first of all, Chevron knew when it bought 76 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: Texico and that it was not off the hook. What 77 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: had happened is that after we initially filed our lawsuit 78 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: back and way back. This is probably the world's longest lawsuit, 79 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: I seem and uh. Instead of dealing with the problem 80 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:46,800 Speaker 1: and dealing directly with the communities, Texicos went directly to 81 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: Ecuador's government and said, oh, we'll put a pittance of 82 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,679 Speaker 1: money forty million dollars and you give us a release. 83 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 1: But very importantly, the release did not release the private 84 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: claims of our clients. Our lawsuit is a private awsuit 85 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,240 Speaker 1: brought by private citizens against a private company. It's a 86 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:07,040 Speaker 1: civil lawsuit. This has already been resolved by multiple courts 87 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: in our favor. But Chevron to this day, for public 88 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,279 Speaker 1: relations and other purposes, still tries to raise this issue like, oh, 89 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: we cleaned up, we were released. I mean, first of all, 90 00:05:15,360 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: the clean up didn't really happen, And second, the legal 91 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: document itself does not release them from the private claims. 92 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 1: Where'd you grow up? Jacksonville, Florida? In Jacksonville And what 93 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: your dad do? He was a small businessman in the 94 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 1: in the television picture to business. And what did your 95 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:37,840 Speaker 1: mom do? She was troublemaker? Yeah, my mom was was 96 00:05:38,920 --> 00:05:42,280 Speaker 1: an editor of a local newspaper for the Jewish community 97 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: in Jacksonville, UM and she was a substitute school teacher 98 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: and you know, spend a lot of time at home 99 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:51,240 Speaker 1: with my my sister and I. She was a great mom. 100 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: And what was your childhood lack in terms of your 101 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: own political advocacy? Well, I social consciousness. I I developed 102 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:01,279 Speaker 1: a social constient at a young age. At the world, 103 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 1: at a very young age struck me as a very 104 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: unfair place to a lot of people. When it bothered 105 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: me greatly, um my mom helped cultivate that. We went 106 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,719 Speaker 1: to protests in front of local grocery stores, you know, 107 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:16,520 Speaker 1: and supported Caesar Chavez and the farm Workers Union. When 108 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:20,279 Speaker 1: I was you know, a young ten, eleven, twelve years old, UM, 109 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:24,680 Speaker 1: I met a a local elected official in my hometown, 110 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: Steve Pagick, who was a huge inspiration for me. He 111 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 1: was a really great politician who had a deep social conscience. UM. 112 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,159 Speaker 1: And as I became a teenager, UM, I took it 113 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: upon myself to really try to learn the stuff that 114 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: I wasn't being taught in school about, you know, how 115 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 1: the world was really work. For example, Oh, just the 116 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: the degree of of of you know, injustice, the you know, 117 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,360 Speaker 1: issues having to do with race, poverty, the stuff that 118 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,800 Speaker 1: um that that that schools weren't really putting it be 119 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: four in terms of teaching kids. Um, your mother had 120 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:01,960 Speaker 1: to do something with Chavez. Yeah, and what did you do? Well, 121 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:04,719 Speaker 1: we went to a grocery store and you know, we were, uh, 122 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 1: you know, we basically organized a boycott of local chain 123 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: of grocery stores when Dixie and Jacksonville because they were 124 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 1: they were you know, you know, Caesar Chavas was trying 125 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: to boycott the grocery store for various labor related issues 126 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: in California, later to the farm workers units. Old were 127 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: you then? I think it was about twelve or thirteen, 128 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,760 Speaker 1: maybe you know, in that area. But but you know, look, 129 00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: I had a fun child and I don't want to 130 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 1: act like all I did was sitting around a protest, 131 00:07:30,720 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: which it was one of the man posters including you know, 132 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: swimming red lines. I mean we did a lot of surfing. 133 00:07:38,360 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: I mean we grew up near that beach. Um, you know, 134 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: I had I had a really healthy, active childhood. But 135 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: I always sort of felt like I wanted to utilize 136 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: whatever professional talents I might one day develop on behalf 137 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: of people who were getting screwed over. It's it's interesting 138 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: how people the people developed that sense of social injustice 139 00:07:56,640 --> 00:07:58,880 Speaker 1: very young. And you look at the world as a 140 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,240 Speaker 1: place where there are powerful people that are abusing powerless 141 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: people and you want to do something about it. Yeah, 142 00:08:04,880 --> 00:08:07,440 Speaker 1: that's very true. And and look, I grew up in 143 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: an upper middle class family. I mean I had a 144 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: lot of opportunity. But I decided, you know, as I 145 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: went through college and then law, going to graduate American University, 146 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: and I wanted to be like in d C, near 147 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:21,640 Speaker 1: the politics. And at that time I sort of was 148 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 1: under what I think is now a mistaken notion that 149 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: like it was all decided in Washington. When I realized 150 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: actually decided other other places, Um, in courtrooms, yes, exactly. 151 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 1: So I wanted to be in d C. And then 152 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: from there I went, I went, I was, you know, 153 00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: fortunate enough to get into Harvard Law School. I mean 154 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,479 Speaker 1: I say fortunate enough because I met a incredibly fabulous 155 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,040 Speaker 1: people there. Who who who do really that the goal 156 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: when you were a you know, I mean, it didn't 157 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: even occur to me i'd be qualified, honestly to get 158 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: into a place like Harvard. I ended up getting, Um, 159 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: you know, I did well academically, Um, I was very 160 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: interested in the subject matter. Liked it there. How did 161 00:08:57,320 --> 00:09:00,439 Speaker 1: you change at Harvard? You're in to you one of 162 00:09:00,440 --> 00:09:03,960 Speaker 1: the top law schools in the world. What puts right 163 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: in front of you? Like this choice, and it's a fundamental, 164 00:09:08,640 --> 00:09:11,600 Speaker 1: profound choice about life. And because Harvard. You know, when 165 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 1: you go to Harvard and come out with a Harvard degree, 166 00:09:14,040 --> 00:09:16,800 Speaker 1: especially at Harvard Law School, you can do almost anything 167 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 1: you want in the legal profession and in other professions. 168 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: Or you can do almost anything you want, you know, 169 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: fighting the power structure that keeps people down. So you know, 170 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,679 Speaker 1: when people get out of law school, many of them 171 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: are you know, burdened with debt and and and their 172 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: choices can become limited because of the financial thing. It 173 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,880 Speaker 1: takes a lot of I think, you know, commitment to 174 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,959 Speaker 1: this kind of work to to choose a path that 175 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: that most people would consider to be complicated and hard. 176 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,200 Speaker 1: I mean, for me, it never was. My first job 177 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: out of law school was working for the Public Defender 178 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: and Washington d c defending children accused of crimes in 179 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: d c um out of Harvard, out of Harvard, Yeah, 180 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I made virtually no money, but I love 181 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: the job. I was in court and it was so interesting, 182 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: and I learned so much, I mean, skills that I 183 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: carry forward with me to this day and the work 184 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: I do now in Ecuador. So so right away when 185 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 1: you get out and do good for others versus do 186 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: well for yourself. Line, you've made a clear choice. You 187 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: made a clear choice. But I also don't want to, 188 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: you know, overplay it in the sense that I enjoy 189 00:10:15,920 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 1: the work. You know, it's not altruism. It makes me 190 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: feel good about myself and and and it's challenging on 191 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,120 Speaker 1: so many levels. It's fascinating front about this one case 192 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: where if you if you survive, you know, if you prevail, 193 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: you could make a lot of money. Absolutely, so yeah, absolutely, 194 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean I want to make uh you know, Look, 195 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: I will let me put it this way. The purpose 196 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: of the case, the purpose of the case is not 197 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: to make money for lawyers. The purpose of the case 198 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: is to help people who are being grievously harm and 199 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: even being killed by cancers and exposures to toxins. However, 200 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,440 Speaker 1: the model of the case that has allowed this case 201 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 1: to be I think great new ground, and the unique 202 00:10:54,160 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 1: aspect of this case to me is our ability to 203 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: harness what I would call the capitalist model, the free 204 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,439 Speaker 1: market model in the law to bring in significant resources 205 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: from investors and others so we can get in the 206 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: same ballpark as a company like Chevron, which you have 207 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: to remember, they're not only trying to win the case, 208 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: they're trying to kill the idea of the case because 209 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,080 Speaker 1: they don't want lawyers like us doing this kind of 210 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: work ever in the future. So it's important that the 211 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: money aspect is important. And and look, if I end 212 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: up collecting a fee, I don't know that I will. 213 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: It's never what's motivated me. Um the plan my personal plan, 214 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 1: and I think other lawyers on the case feel the 215 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: same way as to use some of that money to 216 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 1: leverage it back into the into the fight for social 217 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: justice around the world. I love that in this New 218 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 1: Yorker magazine article that I went back and read again. 219 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 1: Uh they quote in two thousand eight, a Chevron lobbyist 220 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 1: in Washington told Newsweek, we can't let little countries screw 221 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: around with big companies like this, And then one Chevron 222 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,439 Speaker 1: spokesman said, we're going to fight this until hell Freeze 223 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,079 Speaker 1: is over, and then we'll fight it out of the ice. Yes, 224 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,200 Speaker 1: I love that quote. You know, it's funny the the 225 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 1: the psychology of a major company that Chevron that's almost 226 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 1: always gets its way around the world, and what a 227 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: company does in this case Chevron, when you actually harness 228 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: the power of a community based movement. Remember there are 229 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,679 Speaker 1: communities on the ground in the Amazon, indigenous and farmer 230 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,479 Speaker 1: communities that are behind this case. They have a democratic 231 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 1: organization down there that runs the case that hired me, 232 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: that hires other lawyers. The power that you can create 233 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 1: when you organize properly at the grassroots level and you're 234 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: smart enough to connect that up with capital, that is, 235 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: you know, people who have money to back it. Understanding 236 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: that they can actually themselves make money off of the 237 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:44,000 Speaker 1: claim is what's absolutely paradigmatic shifting about this case. I mean, 238 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: because they've never seen a situation where a a Harvard 239 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,000 Speaker 1: law grad and many other people. It would be a 240 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 1: mistake to say that it's primarily me. I mean, there 241 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:54,040 Speaker 1: are a lot of people working on the team. It's 242 00:12:54,080 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: a team, but you know, I've been in the only 243 00:12:56,080 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: lawyer still left who was in at But what they 244 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 1: don't like is a guy like me and others who 245 00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:07,240 Speaker 1: have access to the power structure, the elite hedge funds. 246 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 1: You know, classmates of mine who are in very powerful positions, 247 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:15,560 Speaker 1: including the President United States, can connect up with you know, 248 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: people in the jungle who don't have any money. I 249 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,360 Speaker 1: mean they their business model does not account for what 250 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: has happened here, Okay, which is why they're fighting it 251 00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: so hard. Whether why they're spending so much money, why 252 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,439 Speaker 1: they refused to settle the case. How did the government 253 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 1: of Equador evolve over the time that you've done the case, 254 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: because if I read about different administrations that have come in, 255 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: some have been more disposed towards helping it than others. Correct. Well, 256 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: look um, you know what what Chermon and what Texico 257 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: now Chermon has countered on Latin America, but really all 258 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: over the world is that they can go into a 259 00:13:45,000 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: place to a deal with the government, get access to oil, 260 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:50,839 Speaker 1: and just work the system in their favor. I mean, 261 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 1: you know, there was there was significant economic advancement in 262 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 1: Equador because oil. The still is to this day. I mean, 263 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: they're they're a member of OPEC. You know, oil is 264 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,719 Speaker 1: a huge part of the national budget, even with prices down, 265 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,200 Speaker 1: It's a very important part of what's allowed the country 266 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: to develop socially. Now what we experienced. Remember I started 267 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: going down there. I've been down there about two hundred 268 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 1: and fifty times. I used to go to Ecuador like 269 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: you would fly on the shuttle to d C from 270 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 1: New York. I mean I would go for a day meeting, 271 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: come right back. Okay. Luckily it's the same time zone 272 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:20,200 Speaker 1: as New York, so it wasn't that and you know, 273 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 1: it didn't really shake me up too much. But I've 274 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: been there many, many times. In two thousand seven, um 275 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: man named Raphael Correa was elected president. He was a 276 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: former professor, young guy um very nationalistic, has a PhD 277 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 1: in economics from US University, very capable. And over the 278 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: last ten years he's been president, and I think the 279 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: country has changed. What's changed in terms of the Ecuador case, 280 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,080 Speaker 1: in terms of the Chevron case, is you finally had 281 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,520 Speaker 1: a president of Ecuador who cared about what was happening 282 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: to his own citizens, these indigenous groups and farmer communities 283 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: in the jungle, these impoverished groups. And in Berlin just 284 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: film he shows up. Yeah, Berlin just's film, he shows up. 285 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:00,360 Speaker 1: You know, So the first time you have a president 286 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: who goes down sees what really happened the oil is 287 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: visible all over the place, talks to the people and says, 288 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: this is one of the biggest outrages I've ever seen. 289 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: They were very often that guys like that, they're sincere 290 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 1: at the moment that they say that, yes, and then 291 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: things evolved when the how is he held up as 292 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 1: an ally? Look, this is the thing. Okay, he has 293 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: his job, we have our job. We don't work together. 294 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: We're not part of the same team. He's the government, 295 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: we're a private lawsuit. However, I think it's important for 296 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: the world to recognize that Raphael Correa, the president of Equator, 297 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 1: the first person ever to go down there and see 298 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: the damage and talk about it, has stood by the victims. Okay, 299 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:40,119 Speaker 1: he hasn't interfered with the lawsuit. And what I decided, 300 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 1: along with my colleagues in Ecuador, was that until we 301 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: convinced the country public opinion that this was a battle 302 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: between a country that had been completely screwed over by 303 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: an American company, in that company as opposed to the 304 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: indigenous people only in Texico, we would never win the case. 305 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 1: So we spent a hell of a lot of time 306 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: doing media work and and speaking at schools and university 307 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: You had been a journalist. Temporarily, I wasn't. I was 308 00:16:09,360 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: a journalist became. I worked in Nicaragua during the height 309 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 1: of the Concert War. I worked there from nineteen four 310 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty seven, saw young people covered the war. 311 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: Lived in Monaugua. I worked initially for United Press International, 312 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: and then I freelanced for a bunch of papers. The 313 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: Christian Science Monitor of Philadelphi inquired. I mean that was 314 00:16:26,880 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 1: back when people read newspapers, you know, And I made 315 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: a living writing freelance stories out of graduated from Harvard 316 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: Law School. No, I had graduated. That was between time 317 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: in law school. I did that for four years and 318 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: then I went to law school. I mean that's where 319 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: I really learned about the culture of the Spanish. And 320 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: you know, when I went to law school and got 321 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: out of law school, because of that previous experience in 322 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: Latin America, I was able to sort of build on 323 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: that because I got to do legal work in Latin America. 324 00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: I loved the region too much, and there's I want 325 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: to sort of somehow figure out a role for myself 326 00:16:56,920 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: down there and ended up in this case. But did 327 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: you learn during that period that helped you later on? Well, look, 328 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 1: I mean, isn't it all part of the same power structure? 329 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean what I learned. I mean, first 330 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: of all, in Nicaragua, I saw, you know, a battle 331 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:18,600 Speaker 1: for for social justice against a US back dictator. Um. 332 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: I saw you know, the sacrifices people willing to make 333 00:17:22,560 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: to get the most basic things in life that many 334 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:26,840 Speaker 1: people in the US take for granted. And I understood 335 00:17:27,480 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: what it meant, you know, in a way that I 336 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 1: could never probably get from living in the United States. 337 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: And it gave me perspective. Okay, I mean from that 338 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 1: point forward, nothing ever seemed too big for me. You know, 339 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: nothing ever seemed too complicated or toobelievable, unbelievable like you know, 340 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I felt terribly lucky, uh, you know, to 341 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: to have grown up in a place where I had 342 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: the space, you know, to develop the way I've developed. 343 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: Because there's many countries in the world, as you know, 344 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 1: when people speak out, they get killed or they get 345 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: put in jail off. Yeah, and they get put off. 346 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: That just sort of that just sort of made me 347 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 1: redouble my commitment to wanting to do what I wanted 348 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: to do with my life. You know, It's like I've 349 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:10,680 Speaker 1: got to do something. Why why? Well, look, I mean, 350 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 1: you know you could have done a little of that. 351 00:18:12,560 --> 00:18:14,159 Speaker 1: You could have been people in New York, I know 352 00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: where you made a lot of money and then you 353 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:19,439 Speaker 1: had a dinner and you gave money to help. Why 354 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 1: don't you do it that? Our lies would have been 355 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 1: so much better with her? She loves you. You could 356 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: have done this, like you know, thousand the table, but 357 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,679 Speaker 1: you didn't do that. Um, why you know, Look, I 358 00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: never wanted not to make money. I mean I like money, 359 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,520 Speaker 1: or at least enough to be financially secure and to 360 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 1: enjoy my life. And and look, my wife and I 361 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: both work and we make enough money to live relatively comfortable. 362 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: There's no complaints. We have one kid. We live in Manhattan. 363 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 1: You know, we're not wealthy by any means, but we 364 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: live fine. We take a vacation a couple to three years. 365 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: We're okay. Man, it's all good. If we win the case, obviously, 366 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 1: I will hopefully recover a percentage of the thing, which 367 00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: is two years if your life you've spent. And if 368 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 1: I'm able to get that, I'll be in a different position. 369 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 1: I mean, our goal, my wife and I have discussed 370 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: this extensively along with the clients, and we want to 371 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 1: create an entity uh to to continue to do the 372 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 1: work in other places explore the Here's the Thing Archives 373 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 1: where I talked with Joe Burlinger, the director of Crude, 374 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 1: on why he makes films about real events. I mean, 375 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 1: the idea of capturing human drama in all its ambiguous 376 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: glory as it unfolds before the camera is first of all, 377 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:40,520 Speaker 1: an incredible way to make a film, and secondly to 378 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: have faith. Take a listen that Here's the Thing dot org. 379 00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the Thing. 380 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: My guest today is Stephen Donzigger, the lawyer who represents 381 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 1: a group of Ecuadorian people in a landmark, decades long 382 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: class action lawsuit against Chevron. The case has been fought 383 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 1: both in Ecuador and the United States. In two thousand 384 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,639 Speaker 1: and eleven, Donzigger one in Ecuador, and it was a 385 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,960 Speaker 1: big win, resulting in a nine point five billion dollar 386 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: judgment against Chevron. However, three years later in New York, 387 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 1: federal Judge Lewis Kaplan declared that this judgment could not 388 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: be enforced in the United States due to what Kaplan 389 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 1: described as quote dishonest and corrupt measures of Donziger's team 390 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: that led to the verdict in Ecuador. Don Zigger is 391 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:42,760 Speaker 1: currently appealing the Caplan decision. If don Zigger prevails and 392 00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 1: Chevron pays, he could see a large amount of cash, 393 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 1: although that wasn't the goal. Look, I never did this 394 00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: for the money. I'm thrilled to be able to do 395 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: it and make enough money to live, you know, relatively comfortably. Um. 396 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: I do want the money though, if I can get it, 397 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:58,879 Speaker 1: because I wanted to continue to do this work and 398 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: train in fund of the lawyers to do this work 399 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: around the world. I mean, I want to help create 400 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 1: new capacity on the progressive side of the law to 401 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,520 Speaker 1: fight these powerful corporations that to me, are abusing the law. 402 00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,400 Speaker 1: You know, I can tell you I personally have been 403 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: targeted with what is probably the most well funded corporate 404 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 1: retaliation came in ever. If you google me, you'll get 405 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: all this negative stuff. But I want to get to 406 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 1: what did you do about the litigation finance thing? Who? Okay, 407 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: so you created that if someone came to you with 408 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: the idea, so you know, look, you know you needed money. 409 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: I needed to be creative about getting money because you know, 410 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: look for several years, the case sort of went along 411 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: at a certain level, and we were fine. When it 412 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: was clear we were going to win the case in Ecuador, 413 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,240 Speaker 1: where cheveryone wanted it, they decided to try to destroy 414 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: the case. And the turning point was in May two 415 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 1: thousand nine when sixty Minutes ran a segment on the 416 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: case and it made them look terrible. They interviewed me, 417 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: and a couple of days later, I got an internal 418 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: email from Chevron because I've litigated against him and gotten 419 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,359 Speaker 1: some of their documents, and they said, let's go after 420 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,159 Speaker 1: this lawyer. Because they calculated that I was like at 421 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: the center of it all. They could cut off the 422 00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 1: head the whole thing Nicksonian strategy, and they hit me 423 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: with everything they have. I mean, they sued me under 424 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:16,440 Speaker 1: the civil racketeering UH statute. They sued me for sixty 425 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,880 Speaker 1: billion dollars. I live in a two bedroom apartment. Okay, 426 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,159 Speaker 1: imagine coming home, you know, to your wife and say, hey, honey, um, 427 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 1: you know, she says, how'd you had your day go? 428 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: And you say, oh, well it was okay. So I 429 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: got super sixty billion dollars today, you know, I put 430 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: it at the end of the left. I had a 431 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: nice lunch with my mom and then I went and 432 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:39,680 Speaker 1: brought you some flowers when I got exactly but no one, 433 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: as far as my research tells me, in a individual 434 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: in our country's history, it ever been sued for so 435 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,639 Speaker 1: much money. Okay. And I was being sued as I 436 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: litigated this is two This was in after the sixty 437 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,160 Speaker 1: minutes pace. Yeah, this was in Okay, So the sixty 438 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: minutes was in two thousand nine. They actually hit hit 439 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: me with the lawsuit on February first, two thousand eleven. Okay, 440 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 1: And that day I was lying down to Ecuador. I 441 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: got off the plane in Miami to change planes. My 442 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 1: BlackBerry was blowing up, and I was like, holy shit, 443 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: they really did it. Like I couldn't believe they actually 444 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,359 Speaker 1: we're going to do that. There is that case. Now, well, 445 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: we ended up litigating it and they won. I mean, 446 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 1: how do I explain this? Um? They dropped all the 447 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,439 Speaker 1: sixty billion on the EVA trial. They dropped all the 448 00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: damages claims because under our system or legal system, if 449 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: you're suited for money, you get a jury. If you're 450 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 1: not sued for money, you don't get a jury. So 451 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,520 Speaker 1: in order to do that, they dropped any money damages, 452 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: and they would not be attacking us to this degree 453 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 1: had we not effectively called them out for what we 454 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: believe their environmental crimes and from so just to finish this, 455 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:42,040 Speaker 1: so when you come up with the idea that you 456 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: need the money and you're gonna monetize this with the 457 00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 1: litigation finance, you came up with the site where someone 458 00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,239 Speaker 1: came to you and suggested try this, And how did 459 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 1: you do it? Where does the money come from? So 460 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: it comes from different sources. It comes from a combination 461 00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,119 Speaker 1: of wealthy individuals and organized hedge funds that invest in 462 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,879 Speaker 1: Patent Bogs is a law firm that helped us raise money. 463 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 1: They're they're a major capital. Burford was a fund um 464 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: Woodsford was a fun Mr de Leone was an individual. 465 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: He didn't have a fund, but he would invest personally. 466 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: And this is a guy I went to law school with, 467 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: by the way, who ended up making a lot of 468 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,639 Speaker 1: money in the internet poker space and he became very wealthy, 469 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: and we he was in the Latino Law Students Association 470 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: with me at Harvard, and we stayed in touch and 471 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: he ended up funding a lot of the case. UM. 472 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: But we have had a diverse, diverse sources of money 473 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:31,160 Speaker 1: that have backed this case through the years, and it's 474 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: it's really the key to our success. It's pretty clear 475 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,160 Speaker 1: to them now that we're not going away. So take 476 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: me like a baseball box score, just through the beats 477 00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: of the highlights. So these are the highlights. Ninety three. 478 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 1: We start the case in the US. They wanted it 479 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: in Ecuador. We fought to keep it in the US. 480 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,720 Speaker 1: They won that battle. So in two thousand one we 481 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:50,639 Speaker 1: go back to Ecuador. A lot of people said, don't go. 482 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: You're waste your time. It's like this union leader told 483 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,560 Speaker 1: me it will never happen. Um, you're wasting your time. 484 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,479 Speaker 1: But we did it anyway. UM. And then you know, 485 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: the case started to go real slow. They were trying 486 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: to sabotage the process. The new guy gets elected. You 487 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: know what was the name of Raphael Correa Corea. Um. 488 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,679 Speaker 1: Then we win the case in two thousand eleven eighteen billion. 489 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:13,919 Speaker 1: In two thousand and thirteen it got affirmed by the 490 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: Supreme Corpate. The money got have because they took out 491 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 1: a punitive damages component, which is unfortunate. So the judgment 492 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: ended up being nine point five billion, But interest runs 493 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: the more they delay. Now yeah, um, and and right now, 494 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: the judge it's worth about ten billion dollars, which, by 495 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: the way, it might seem like a lot of money, 496 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,479 Speaker 1: but it really isn't. But there were also movements. If 497 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: I'm not mistaken, because I'm not just only relying on 498 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: the New Yorker magazine because I read a bunch of 499 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: different articles online about you and about the case. Is 500 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 1: that also Chevron in the way that they tried to 501 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 1: move the case out of the US into Equador. They 502 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: tried to move it back to the U S. And 503 00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: you you got jurisdiction, You've got a ruling in Canada. 504 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: Yeah so so yeah, okay, so again the highlights, we 505 00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: file in the US, it goes to Ecuador at their request, 506 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: we win in Ecuador. They then to retaliate, come act 507 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,200 Speaker 1: to the U S where we originally wanted the case 508 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 1: to happen, and sue me personally, sue my colleague Pablo 509 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: Fajardo personally, he's a lawyer and equator Caplin's the judge 510 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: hated my guts. I mean, part of my problem with 511 00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: Kaplan is that Joe Burlinger, the claim. Documentary filmmaker had 512 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 1: made a movie about the case, and which came out 513 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, premiered at Sundance, and I was 514 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 1: one of the protagonists in the film, along with Pablo 515 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,880 Speaker 1: and some others. Chevron was able to subpoena from Burlinger 516 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,120 Speaker 1: hundreds of hours of his out tail. Let's let's let's 517 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,959 Speaker 1: go through that from minute, because to get to the 518 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: film and to some of the white water that you 519 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,960 Speaker 1: hit later in the case, I think, if I'm not mistaken, 520 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: Chevron saw a cut of the film and there was 521 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,359 Speaker 1: something in there that was later omitted from a cut 522 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 1: of the film, which is what prompted him to say, 523 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: give us the six hundred hours and we want to 524 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 1: see what else, She admitted. I mean, look, Joe Burrowinger 525 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: followed us around for three years. Um, Joe and I 526 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: became very comfortable. Joe has me talking very frankly about 527 00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 1: my frustrations, my fears, strategy, strategy, my joy ay, um, 528 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: lots of very personal things, and I personally, as well 529 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,399 Speaker 1: as my clients, made a conscious decision to cooperate with 530 00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:11,879 Speaker 1: Joe because we felt like it was far more important 531 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,199 Speaker 1: to get this story told than to somehow adhere to 532 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: some sort of notion of the law that you should 533 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 1: never work with a filmmaker during a case, which, by 534 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 1: the way, many lawyers work with filmmakers. So I think 535 00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: it was a wise choice to work with Joe. What 536 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,240 Speaker 1: Chevron did is they got all his outtakes. Well, I 537 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:30,960 Speaker 1: didn't remember half the stuff I had said over three years, 538 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 1: and and they found snippets of me saying some admittedly 539 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: stuff that I probably should not have said, stuff like, um, 540 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: you know all the all the judges here are corrupt 541 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 1: and so, and then I'd say, um, I talked about 542 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: Chevron at a frustration. I said, you know, if you 543 00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: tell a lie thousand times, it becomes the truth. I 544 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: said that in reference to Chevron. The way Chevron edited 545 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: the outtakes they cut out there and this is his philosophy, 546 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,520 Speaker 1: you know. So and there was a big legal battle 547 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: with Joe, and he he invoked some freedom of the 548 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: press that would have you had the journalist privilege, which 549 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:08,800 Speaker 1: was I mean, Joe just got and they punctured that 550 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: and they got the six hours and they got result 551 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: of that for your world, the journalist world. I think 552 00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: it was terrible. I mean, I mean basically, Joe Burrowingrew's 553 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: an artist and he had to turn over his art. 554 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: I mean, it was just a super bad result for us. Um. 555 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: I think it created a certain sensation that something might 556 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: have been wrong with the way we litigated the case, 557 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: which has taken us a really long time to combat 558 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,919 Speaker 1: because Chevron, you know, has so many resources and they 559 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: have websites up about this kind of stuff. But in 560 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 1: the end of the day, it was never evidence in 561 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: the Ecuador case, it was never relied on by the court, 562 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: and most of the outtakes show us doing what we 563 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: should do. Where is the case at now? Well, in Ecuador, 564 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: it's over. I mean we we We've gotten the decision 565 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: affirmed by the Supreme Court. We have a case with 566 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 1: Kaplan now or the case with Kaplan. It's on appeal. 567 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: It's on appeal. But ultimately, look, there's nothing cap one 568 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: can do to block the villagers from forcing their judgment. 569 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: Outside the United States, where do you think that will happen? 570 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: I think it's most likely to happen in Canada. You 571 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: do now, um, So it's safe to assume that right 572 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 1: now you're waiting for this somewhat reduced verdict like nine 573 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,840 Speaker 1: point five billion or whatever it is. What's what's the 574 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: amount now, it's about ten billions, so ten billion. You're 575 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: waiting for a ruling potentially from the Canadian court that 576 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: you can access Chevron's assets there. That's exactly right. Look, 577 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: the key any idea, what the timeline is for that, 578 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,720 Speaker 1: The key point of action, the center of the action 579 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:32,760 Speaker 1: now is in Canada. It's in Toronto. How do you 580 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: think that will take? Well, it depends. Chevron's strategy is 581 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: grinded down, grinded down, grinding down. Right now, they're trying 582 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,120 Speaker 1: to basically relitigate everything. That have one child. I have 583 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 1: one child. He's no girl, he's a boy. That's his name, Matthew. 584 00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: So Matthew Donziger might be the attorney sitting in the 585 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: courtroom in Canada collects the check for you know you 586 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: and I'll be gone, will be dead, and Matthew Donziger 587 00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:58,280 Speaker 1: and would be like, look to the order of Matthew Donziger. 588 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: I hope not I hope, but you know it's possible. Look, 589 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter to me at this point. Okay, we 590 00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: we we are going to stay in this as long 591 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,640 Speaker 1: as it takes. A message needs to be sent a 592 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 1: message needs to have you done this if this is 593 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: you haven't taken any other cases. No, No, I've done 594 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: a lot of other case. You've done a lot of 595 00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 1: the case in a lot of other cases right now, 596 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 1: right now, over the last years, I've mostly worked on this, 597 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: but I've done you know, I've worked on different law firms. 598 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: I've done a lot of different cases. And look, there's 599 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 1: other stuff and you know I want to do too, 600 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: and planned to do. I mean, right now, it takes 601 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:31,520 Speaker 1: a lot of time because we need to sort of 602 00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 1: get some things organized in Canada in terms of the 603 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: financing for the next few years and that kind of stuff. 604 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: But you know, I I see a day in the 605 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,440 Speaker 1: not too distant future where I think this whole thing 606 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,440 Speaker 1: can resolve in the favor of the Ecuadorians. And this 607 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: is the thing I settle. Well, I think I think 608 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: ultimately we get near their assets in Canada, they're going 609 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 1: to be forced to settle. I mean, they're not going 610 00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: to let their assets. B cs always good if they settle. 611 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: I want to read you one thing. Not everyone embraced 612 00:30:55,320 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: don Zigger's leadership. Esperanza Martinez, who runs Oil watch Suit America, 613 00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: an environmental group, and Quito told me, I confess the 614 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 1: intense personality that Steve has, it's a struggle for me. 615 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: Sarah Lee Whitson, a longtime friend of his who is 616 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: now at Human Rights Watch, acknowledge that some people are 617 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,440 Speaker 1: put off by don Zinger's stubbornness in this theatricality. But 618 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: it was precisely these qualities, she said, that enabled him 619 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: to take on an oil giant. Quote. He's a leader 620 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,400 Speaker 1: and the fact that he's the one who has been 621 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: with the case for over a decade has kept it going. 622 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,320 Speaker 1: What was it like for you in uh Berlinger's film 623 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,840 Speaker 1: to see yourself? What did you say? What did you 624 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: think when you saw yourself? Because because you do come 625 00:31:37,840 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 1: across and I don't begrudge this, I mean, we all 626 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 1: have to have confidence in what we do. You have 627 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: to you have to convey confidence for leadership, to convince 628 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: people of the rightness of what you do. We have 629 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 1: to strike a certain post. And you do come across 630 00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: from time to time as a big fan of yourself 631 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: in the film and you're thinking, you're very confident. I'm 632 00:31:55,400 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: a big fan of myself. I mean I think, look, 633 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: I think what we as a team have put together 634 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 1: and accomplished as extraordinary. I'm thrilled with what we've accomplished. 635 00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: I mean people looking like, oh, you've been a talk, 636 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,320 Speaker 1: you've been suited. No no, no, no, no no no. 637 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: But you know, look, you asked me how I how 638 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: I in the film. I have to say it was mixed. 639 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 1: I mean I was I didn't come across uh, you know, 640 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:25,600 Speaker 1: it was complicated. I there are aspects of my personality 641 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: that I would see on the screen. It just it 642 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: didn't really make me feel very good about myself. But 643 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 1: you know, look, I've been in this over twenty years. 644 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: I've evolved as a person. I mean there were times 645 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: I couldn't have to. I couldn't go a day down 646 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: there without yelling at people because I was so frustrated 647 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 1: by the complacency of this Ecuadorians who were being victimized 648 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: the same people are. They like, You've got to fight. 649 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: This isn't an American battle, It's an Ecuadorian battle. Do 650 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:54,440 Speaker 1: this fight. Fight And ultimately, as we you know, built 651 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 1: up our team and learned how to deal with these 652 00:32:56,840 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: people and eventually won the case. It's very much now 653 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: in the hands of the Ecuadorians. I mean it's This 654 00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 1: case is not about Steven Donziger. This case is about 655 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,880 Speaker 1: people in Equator who are now fighting back with the 656 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: help of international allies like myself. But it is not 657 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,120 Speaker 1: my case. I do not own the case. It is 658 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 1: owned by them, and ultimately they can They can fire 659 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: me any day they want if they don't want me 660 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: to work for them anymore. Two last things, would you 661 00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 1: like to see a movie made of this case? And 662 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: who would play you in the movie? Look, there's been 663 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: talk of a movie. I and the people I work 664 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:32,200 Speaker 1: with wanna have a movie. Any movie people. I have 665 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: talked to some movie people. Um, but you know, the 666 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: person who would play me would have to have tremendous 667 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,760 Speaker 1: fire in the belly. To be angry. I have to 668 00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 1: be angry for the I mean. I mean, look, I 669 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 1: I have a very wide range of emotions. I don't 670 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: know if it's come across in this interview, but I 671 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: mean I I laugh a lot, I cry a lot, 672 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: I yell, I scream. I live the full game, and 673 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: I care and I'm intense. Look, I try to be 674 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: self aware and I try to people with respect, but 675 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: I also try to accomplish the goals that I have 676 00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 1: for people who are being completely screwed and to have 677 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: no voice. And if it means that you sort of 678 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 1: some people are not going to like you for that, 679 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 1: so be it. It's inevitable if you're going to actually 680 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: create the kind of meaningful change that I think we're creating. 681 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, Chevron hates my guts and you want to 682 00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: see their emails about me. But you know there's also allies, 683 00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: natural allies and in the progressive part of the legal 684 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,319 Speaker 1: community who don't like sort of the way we're going 685 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: about our business. But you know, when you break I 686 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: believe we're breaking the mold. The amount of resources we 687 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:32,200 Speaker 1: brought in the fact we've been able to actually win 688 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,880 Speaker 1: a judgment in Ecuador after all these years is a 689 00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,760 Speaker 1: precedent setting its historic. We still have a lot of challenges. 690 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:40,080 Speaker 1: We have a lot of work to do to actually 691 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 1: recover the money and do the clean up, which is 692 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,880 Speaker 1: the ultimate goal here. But you know, when you do 693 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: those types of things, you're going to break furniture and 694 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 1: you're gonna piss people off. And if you sort of 695 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: want to live a life where you want everyone to 696 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: like you, you're not going to be able to do 697 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 1: this kind of work. Effectively so by the way, I 698 00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 1: used to want people to always like me, and I 699 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: had to learn that it was okay to have people 700 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,680 Speaker 1: dislike you as long as it's for the right reason. Look, 701 00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: the key to this whole thing is is to just 702 00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: understand what's really happening and understand that you've been successful. 703 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,520 Speaker 1: They want you to believe you failed. They want you 704 00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 1: to get demoralized, they want you to believe you have 705 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: mountains to climb, And I see it very clearly. I 706 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,879 Speaker 1: think this has been a fabulous experience. We've accomplished so much, 707 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 1: We've come so far. We have a little bit more 708 00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: distance to go, and I believe we will get there. 709 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: And they can't stand the fact that we still feel 710 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: the way we feel about art, publishment. It's anyone's guess 711 00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: how Stephen Donziger's fight will end. This is Alec Baldwin 712 00:35:42,400 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 1: and you're listening to here's the thing would make the 713 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: past time