WEBVTT - Dr. Jud Brewer on Overcoming Anxiety 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.400 Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:13.640 Heart Radio. Hi everyone, today, we are diving into a 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:17.040 topic that is near, but not exactly dear to me 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.640 or you. I'm sure anxiety. Understanding and dancing with anxiety 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:24.720 has made up a large part of my adult life, 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:28.280 and I know I am not alone. My next guest 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:31.640 calls anxiety a modern day epidemic, and he has an 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.320 equally modern approach to countering it. I am so honored 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.280 to welcome Dr Judd Brewer, the author of Unwinding Anxiety. 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.320 New science shows how to break the cycles of worry 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.080 and fear to heal your mind on today's Holy Human. 0:01:10.760 --> 0:01:14.039 Dr jad thank you for coming on the Holy Human podcast. 0:01:14.200 --> 0:01:18.040 I am so excited to talk to you about anxiety, 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:24.040 which sounds very strange. It does sound funny, but I 0:01:24.040 --> 0:01:28.440 I just finished your book, Unwinding Anxiety, and I have 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:30.680 I've also been working with your app for the last 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:35.160 couple of weeks, and it really has been perfect timing 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:39.280 to to connect with your book. I saw Sharon Salzburg 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:42.280 actually post about it, and right before that, I was 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.880 just in a therapy session talking to my therapist about 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.320 addictions and in habits and I'm like, we're all just 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:53.200 basically a bunch of habits. And and then I saw 0:01:53.240 --> 0:01:55.880 her post about your book and then started reading it, 0:01:55.920 --> 0:01:58.040 and I'm like, oh my god, this is the most 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.360 divine timing ever. So I just want to say thank 0:02:01.360 --> 0:02:04.600 you for creating this book because it has been the 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:07.280 last couple of weeks really been opening me up to 0:02:07.760 --> 0:02:09.880 new ways of dealing with my anxiety, which I have 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:12.520 dealt with for It's been a part of my life, 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:14.720 I think, my whole life, to be honest, Well, I'm 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.880 so glad to hear that it's it's healthy. Yeah, no, 0:02:17.919 --> 0:02:20.880 it definitely is. You know, so many of us are 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:25.240 going through such an anxious time and I've been experiencing 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.200 anxiety some of us our whole lives. You say that 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.600 you feel like it's an epidemic. Can you explain why 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.080 and how we got here? I'd be happy to so, 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.440 as you're referring to and I jokingly say this in 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:41.840 the book, you know BC before COVID nineteen, which seems 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:48.320 like ancient times. Yes it does. We We all get anxious. 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:52.280 Anxiety is part of life, and it is kind of 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:58.000 born from the survival mechanism in our brain, which takes 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.640 a lack of information or uncertain tea and kind of 0:03:01.680 --> 0:03:04.760 spins that into a driving force to go get information. 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:07.280 The way I think of it is, you know, when 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.000 we're hungry and we have a we're low on calories, 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:12.600 our stomach rumbles and that urges us to get off 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.480 our butts to go get some food. In the same way, 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:18.720 when we have a lack of information, our brain rumbles 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:22.040 and we have this urge to go get information. So 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:26.760 you know, getting information is survival literally for our brain, 0:03:26.880 --> 0:03:30.680 just like getting food is survival for our body. Interesting. 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:33.600 So I mean, and we are living in a time 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.520 where information is coming at us twenty four seven. So 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.880 is that obviously I feel like that's kind of driving 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.320 home our anxiety even more and upping the anti Yes. 0:03:44.400 --> 0:03:46.880 I think there are several aspects here. One is you 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:50.280 can think of it as uncertainty is that piece that's 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:53.840 that's the motivating factor that says go get information. If 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:57.800 you look at our ancient ancestors, there was certainly there 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:00.680 was uncertainty, but it came in into and form. So 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:04.360 for example, if there was a saber tooth tiger or 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.160 a line or whatever it was that was coming to 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.200 eat us. We didn't have to go on a chat 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:13.160 for him and discuss how dangerous sabor two tigers were. 0:04:13.440 --> 0:04:15.200 We didn't, you know, we didn't. Our brain wasn't like, 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:17.440 is that a deep faked have they? No? Deep faked 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:21.640 savor two tigers? You know? So back then it was 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:25.440 pretty straightforward. You see the tiger, you run. And now 0:04:25.640 --> 0:04:27.680 not only is your pointing out, is there a whole 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:30.320 lot more information? You know? The Internet has allowed us 0:04:30.360 --> 0:04:34.080 to get information seven, but we all also have to 0:04:34.120 --> 0:04:38.240 sift through that constantly to see what is accurate, what 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:43.120 is real, you know, and what is worth listening to? Yeah, 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.400 I mean I know from myself it's this constant do 0:04:46.520 --> 0:04:50.080 I believe what I'm reading? Which can cause anxiety in 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.920 itself because you're like, well wait, what what is true? 0:04:53.480 --> 0:04:56.320 You know? And and that's uh, I think, especially during 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.280 this past year when there's been so much you know, 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:02.760 well not even just as Passive passed, probably four years 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:05.159 more so than anything, you know, there's been just so 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:08.479 much conflicting information and and I know for myself that's 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:11.960 definitely driven up, driven by anxiety. Through there you take 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:15.400 a mindfulness approach to anxiety, and I know we've talked 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.520 a little bit about mindfulness on this podcast, but I 0:05:18.640 --> 0:05:20.920 was wondering if you could refresh our memory a bit 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.520 about what mindfulness is and why it's such a key 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:28.440 component in helping us work with our anxiety. I'd be 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.960 happy to here. I would say, let's break it down 0:05:30.960 --> 0:05:34.440 into its core elements, because mindfulness can mean different things 0:05:34.480 --> 0:05:39.320 to different people. So here core elements really are awareness 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.480 and an attitude of curiosity. Some describe it as non 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:45.640 judgment I like curiosity, and I'll tell you why in 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:50.000 a minute. But if we're bringing awareness and curiosity to 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:53.800 our everyday experience, what it helps us do is to 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:56.880 really start to see how our minds work. Because if 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:58.400 we don't know how our minds work, we can't work 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:00.719 with them. So it helps us see our our minds work. 0:06:00.800 --> 0:06:04.800 But then critically, it helps us really tap into the 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:09.200 strongest parts of our brain, which ironically form habits in 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.440 the first place around anxiety and worry and procrastination and 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.240 other things. But that's actually the only place that we 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.000 can change the habit is through updating the reward value 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.640 in our brain. So we have to go to the 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:27.640 place that it originates. And basically I mean basically utilize 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.840 that piece to start to help us instead of work 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.000 against us. We do, we do. I have tons of 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.359 patients that come into my office that have no idea 0:06:34.440 --> 0:06:37.200 how their minds work, you know, and they've been pushed 0:06:37.200 --> 0:06:41.359 and pulled by anxiety or their entire lives, and you know, 0:06:41.400 --> 0:06:43.360 they've tried this and that, but they haven't been able 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:47.320 to link up any consistent you know, I can do 0:06:47.680 --> 0:06:50.560 X in order to help my anxiety because they haven't 0:06:50.560 --> 0:06:53.960 really understood how their minds work. I think sometimes for me, 0:06:54.040 --> 0:06:56.840 I understand, I've I've you know, I read a lot 0:06:56.880 --> 0:06:59.680 of things, and I understand how the mind works. But 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.760 some times the bodily sensations, sometimes the the old pro 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:07.719 programming in the body can be so overwhelming that it's 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.640 like whatever I learned about, you know, about how the 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.000 mind works just kind of like goes out the window, 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.800 and that that instinct takes over. You know. It's so 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.679 interesting you say that because I degree, And I'll say 0:07:22.880 --> 0:07:24.880 the way I think of this is that our thinking 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:28.800 brain doesn't hold a candle to our feeling body, so 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:31.480 we can understand something is bad for us. For example, 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.720 you know I shouldn't smoke, or I shouldn't overeat or 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:38.680 I shouldn't worry. But that that we can't just understand it. 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.280 Otherwise all my none of my patients would smoke, they'd 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:43.960 all quit smoking, or they never start smoking in the 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.240 first place, because they knew it was bad for them. 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:50.720 So it's really these urges, these primitive survival instincts that 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:54.640 have gotten kind of caught up in modern day where 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.280 food is designed to be addictive, where social media is 0:07:57.320 --> 0:08:01.119 designed to be addictive, where you know, worry is held 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:05.760 as a badge of honor. So so all of you know, 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.160 all though those pieces, it's like this old brain meets 0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:12.120 modern society and suddenly we're off to the races with 0:08:12.280 --> 0:08:15.840 all sorts of bad habits. Yeah, I feel that completely. 0:08:16.240 --> 0:08:18.120 You talk about habits a lot in this book. Can 0:08:18.160 --> 0:08:22.040 you walk us through how a habit is form I'd 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:26.160 be happy to the three elements that form a habit 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.440 that are necessary and sufficient, are a trigger, a behavior 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.720 at a reward so for and this was actually set 0:08:32.800 --> 0:08:35.240 up for our ancient ancestors to remember where food is. 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.040 So the ideas you know, you see food, there's the trigger, 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:40.320 you eat the food, there's the behavior, and then your 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:43.199 stomach sends this dopamine signal to your brain that says, 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:45.840 you know, remember what you ate and where you found it. 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.360 From a brain perspective, we think of this as a reward. 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.839 So because this dopamine sprits really helps us lay down 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:55.360 this memory. So any habit is formed that way, and 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.640 that you can think of them as being formed through 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.960 positive reinforcement where let's say we eat some cake, it 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.280 tastes good, and then we learned to eat more cake, 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:08.320 especially if we associated with holidays and celebrations and things 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:11.679 like that, but also through negative reinforcement, where it makes 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.600 something that is unpleasant go away. So for example, if 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:19.080 we if our shoes are untied for and we so 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.439 there's the trigger the behaviors that we trip on our 0:09:22.640 --> 0:09:28.000 shoes are shoelaces, and then that's a negative reinforcement that says, hey, 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:29.680 why don't you learn how to tie your shoes? And 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:31.800 then we tie your shoes and then that removes that 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:36.480 negative of tripping on our over our feet. Got it. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.360 So so it's not just yes, So it can be 0:09:39.400 --> 0:09:42.600 a negative award. You can be trying to avoid something 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.400 which I think is I mean, I feel like a 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:49.320 lot of my life and my anxiety has stemmed from 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:54.240 the avoidance of something, Yes, then it is the actual 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:59.320 uh high of of getting something, which is interesting because 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:00.920 I know in your book you say that there's many 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:03.280 ways that we kind of learn, and one of them 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:07.280 is is the avoidance role, which I think I kind 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.959 of lean more toward that one, which has been really interesting. 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:12.560 I mean, it was so fascinating to see that. I 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.200 feel like we all kind of play in all of 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:18.040 those areas of the avoidance, the kind of the one 0:10:18.080 --> 0:10:20.720 that I forgot how you actually phrase it, the one 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:23.640 that kind of goes towards the one that avoids, and 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:26.599 then it's kind of the fight flight er freeze right, Yes, 0:10:26.920 --> 0:10:29.880 And so I feel like I definitely, as I took 0:10:29.920 --> 0:10:33.800 the test in your book, I felt like I definitely 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:38.480 find myself going towards each of those, but definitely the 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.280 the one that was more of avoidance, the the avoidance 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:43.839 type was the one that I find a fall into. 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:49.560 You say that anxiety itself can be a habit. I 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:51.200 was wondering if you could kind of go into that 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.040 a little bit, because I found that very interesting and 0:10:54.080 --> 0:10:56.400 I found that that was definitely a piece that I 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:59.920 could relate to this is actually part of the sea 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:03.720 for the whole Unwinding Anxiety book because I never learned 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:07.439 this in medical school and residency. I generally learned how 0:11:07.440 --> 0:11:11.920 to prescribe medications to give people for anxiety. And it 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.720 was actually my own anxiety of not being able to 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:18.000 help my patients with their anxiety that led me to 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:20.960 go back and look at this. So basically, there's this 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.880 this number needed to treat in medicine called that that 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.679 gives you a rough estimate of how well of medication works, 0:11:27.720 --> 0:11:30.600 and that for anxiety it's five point one five, meaning 0:11:31.200 --> 0:11:33.480 you know, I have to treat five patients before one 0:11:33.520 --> 0:11:36.240 person shows a significant benefit. So I was playing the 0:11:36.280 --> 0:11:39.440 anxiety lottery with my patients, you know, which which one 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.840 of five people is going to benefit? And that anxiety 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:46.440 was leading me to look back and see what's you know, 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:48.640 what can we do differently or what am I missing? 0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.360 And it turns out, serendipitously, my lab was studying this 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.640 app called eat right Now, where we were looking at 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:57.920 helping people change over eating habits and we've gotten pretty 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:01.280 good results with that, and somebody said, he I'm mapping 0:12:01.320 --> 0:12:03.880 out my habit loop around eating and it goes like this, 0:12:04.280 --> 0:12:08.079 anxiety triggers me to eat, and then that eating doesn't 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:10.400 actually fix the anxiety. So can you make an anxiety 0:12:10.400 --> 0:12:13.360 program to fix my anxiety? And this is where I 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.679 went back and looked and found that there's actually a 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.240 pretty good literature from the nineteen eighties that suggested that 0:12:19.360 --> 0:12:22.920 anxiety could be negatively reinforced just like any other habit. 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.040 And that's where my you know, my eyes popped out 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.560 of my head and I was thinking, wow, you know, 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.000 this is amazing because I I know how to work 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:33.720 with habits. So could we actually bring the work that 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:37.120 I'm doing in my lab together and form a program 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:40.480 for anxiety? And long story, short was, you know, we 0:12:40.600 --> 0:12:44.680 got a sixty seven percent reduction in anxiety and people 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.760 with generalist anxiety disorder, and that number needed to treat 0:12:47.840 --> 0:12:50.640 was one point six as compared to five point when 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.600 five with medications. And that's using mindfulness. That's using mindfulness. Yes, 0:12:54.679 --> 0:12:57.320 So that basically the way this works. So the way 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.840 somebody forms a habit around anxiety is that anxiety or 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:05.360 a negative emotion can trigger worry. So if somebody has 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.439 an unpleasant sensation in their body or they have a pain, 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:10.720 then they start to worry. Oh no, you know, could 0:13:10.720 --> 0:13:15.640 this be bad? Uh? That worry especially, So I should 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:19.040 say if somebody has some pain, you know, like despin 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:20.720 or something like that, they should make sure that it 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.120 isn't a medical condition. But often often folks will have 0:13:24.320 --> 0:13:26.320 some you know, they'll have a pain that they've had, 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:28.560 or they'll they'll just wake up in the morning, like 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.440 my patients with anxiety, they wake up and they're anxious, 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.800 and then they start worrying. Oh no, am I going 0:13:33.840 --> 0:13:36.120 to be anxious all day? Or what's what's the cause 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.760 of this anxiety? That worry itself is a mental behavior 0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:45.400 that then drives anxiety more because that worry is our 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:48.120 brains interpret this as well, at least I'm doing something, 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:52.480 so it gives people a feeling of control. Yet surprise, 0:13:52.559 --> 0:13:54.640 it doesn't actually give us any more control than we 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.480 had when we weren't worrying. And the worry makes our 0:13:57.480 --> 0:13:59.920 thinking brain go offline. It's harder to think and play 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:03.240 and when we're worried, so that then feeds back and 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:07.480 tries more anxiety, which then feeds forward and tries more worry, 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:12.679 which then, you know, causes this vicious cycle. Yeah, the 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.560 the worry piece for sure. I I the anxiety for 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.000 me that I'm noticing is a loop. Um. And maybe 0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.040 some people can relate to this because I've also dealt 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:25.960 with with depression. UM, I feel like my body is 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.440 kind of gone. Uh. It either feels like it has 0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.720 one option or the other. It feels like it has 0:14:31.760 --> 0:14:35.560 this kind of freeze depressed mode, or it has this 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:40.240 anxiety that it can it can utilize to drive itself 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:46.280 out of freeze energizing. It is energizing, And I mean 0:14:46.360 --> 0:14:50.280 I think about the ways in which I utilize anxiety. 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:52.680 I think a lot of us do sometimes for performance, 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:54.960 like when we think about, oh, you know if I 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.040 feel I mean, I did it before, I did it 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.280 before our conversation. And by the way, podcasting a new 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:03.000 thing for me and I it brings up so much 0:15:03.000 --> 0:15:06.000 anxiety for me that I was literally sitting here before 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.360 doing loving Kindness meditation and it I've opened my eyes 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:13.440 and I went, this ship works. It really does. And 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:16.920 I've I've done loving Kindness meditation before, but not in 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:19.720 utilizing it in the way of like when I'm anxious 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:23.920 to like drop in and it really does work. And 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.720 so I think a lot of people can relate to 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.960 that performance piece two of thinking, like if I rev 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.680 myself up, then I can go right into you know, 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:38.120 whatever I need to do. There feels like there's uh 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.640 kind of more of a drive per se to do 0:15:41.680 --> 0:15:43.800 a better job, Like the anxiety is going to make 0:15:43.840 --> 0:15:46.360 us perform better, which I know you've said in your 0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:51.440 book that it's completely opposite. It is, and it's something 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:56.240 that I think is probably going to be perpetuated through 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.560 the Internet for a long time, where this idea that 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.000 performance is improved anxiety, even though there's no evidence to 0:16:02.040 --> 0:16:04.160 support it. Now, I think there's a piece that you're 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:08.320 talking about here, which is an increased level of energy 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:12.040 or arousal. Certainly, if we're asleep, we can't do a podcast, 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:15.520 and if we're you know, and if we're overhyped, it's 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.640 also challenging there. But the piece here that we can 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.240 tap into is, you know, what type of energy are 0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:24.320 we talking about? So for example, with anxiety, that and 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.720 that energy feels restless, you know, kind of closed down tight, 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:32.560 whereas if somebody is in flow, you know, I think 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.560 of that as optimal performance, where there they don't even 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.280 know what anxiety feels like because they've basically lost a 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:42.760 sense of self. They're so in the moment right, there's 0:16:43.000 --> 0:16:49.480 tons of energy there, yet it's a very different energy. 0:16:50.200 --> 0:16:52.240 All right, we're going to take a super quick break, 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.000 but when we return, Dr jud will share just how 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:59.720 you can tap into that more positive, more productive energy. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.600 Welcome back, my friends. We're talking with Dr Jed Brewer 0:17:04.640 --> 0:17:10.720 about better navigating anxiety. You talk a lot about contraction 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.520 and expansion and that being kind of are key into 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:19.960 what mode we're in. I guess at that moment, and uh, yeah, 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:22.840 there's when I was doing the Loving Kindness meditation before 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.040 I all of a sudden felt like my body like 0:17:26.400 --> 0:17:31.560 literally does expand. And it's hard to when you're in 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:36.560 that mode of closed down and tight and feeling like 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.840 all of this. When I talk about anxiety, I feel 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.320 for me, I feel like there's this energy just kind 0:17:41.320 --> 0:17:43.679 of like running throughout my body that someone plugged me 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.840 into a wall socket. When you're in that state, like 0:17:47.880 --> 0:17:51.520 we were saying earlier, sometimes it's really hard to to 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:58.000 think or or to grab onto that new habit of 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:01.679 loving kindness. Luckily, I've been working with your app for 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:05.479 the past couple of weeks and these have become a 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:09.960 daily occurrence where I'm noting, I'm doing loving kindness meditation, 0:18:10.520 --> 0:18:13.159 and it's it definitely does pull you out of it. 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:16.560 But I think at first it's hard to it's hard 0:18:16.560 --> 0:18:19.639 to remember these things when we're in these feelings. What 0:18:19.680 --> 0:18:23.120 do you suggest when we're going through like just we're 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:25.199 having a kind of a panic anxiety attack, what's the 0:18:25.280 --> 0:18:28.440 first thing that can start to bring us into these 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:32.040 other options. Well, here, I would say, and I within, 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:34.960 for example, within panic attack, it's hard to be doing 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.720 anything besides panic. So the good news is there. The 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.879 panic attacks actually last a very short period of time, 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:48.600 so after, you know, after it's over, we can do 0:18:48.920 --> 0:18:51.000 we can look back on that and look at the 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:53.840 you know, the sensations, the thoughts and whatever they went 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.680 through our head and through our bodies, and we can 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:00.240 start to see these as they are. Okay, so was 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:02.479 a thought. You know, for example, I had panic attacks 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.480 during residency training, so it would be this thought that 0:19:05.560 --> 0:19:08.240 I was going to die, I couldn't breathe, my heart 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:12.000 was racing, and I had to actually learned to work 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:13.880 with them in the moment. But we can even do 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:16.760 this right afterwards, where we think, okay, my heart was 0:19:16.880 --> 0:19:18.840 racing my you know, felt like I was going to die. 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:21.320 That was a there was a sensation, there were thoughts 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.399 and whatever, and that helps us start to get the 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.679 perspective where we can be aware of those things and 0:19:27.760 --> 0:19:31.479 not be identified with them, because this is key for 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:35.200 keeping a panic attack just as a panic attack, as 0:19:35.200 --> 0:19:39.560 its momentary occurrence and not developing into full blown panic disorder, 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:42.919 because if we start worrying that we're going to have 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:47.240 another panic attack, then we start avoiding situations like that, 0:19:47.400 --> 0:19:50.679 or we start just getting more anxious thinking about them, 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:53.760 and that's actually what just what makes us fall into 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:57.440 panic disorder. Yet that part is optional. We don't really 0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.880 have control over having panic attacks, but how we respond 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:04.000 to the panic attack is critical, and that's actually really 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.840 the key of mindfulness for anything. It's it's not that 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:10.240 we have worry thoughts, it's not that we have feelings 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.800 of anxiety. It's that we are identified with them and 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.040 get caught up in them. So we can change our 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:19.840 relationship to our thoughts and emotions and body sensations, and 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.960 by changing that relationship, we're not as caught up. We 0:20:23.000 --> 0:20:25.520 can be with with them in the moment, Oh, I 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:27.919 just had a panic attack as compared to Oh no, 0:20:28.480 --> 0:20:30.399 I just had a panic attack and then we started 0:20:30.440 --> 0:20:34.080 panicking that we might have another one. Yeah. In the book, 0:20:34.119 --> 0:20:38.600 you have people map out their their habit loops. Can 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:42.680 you kind of walk us through what that mapping looks like. Yes, 0:20:42.840 --> 0:20:44.679 I think of this as kind of the first of 0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:48.000 three steps in working with any type of habit. We've 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:49.840 got to see the territory. We've got to map the 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.880 territory of our own minds. And really it's just mapping 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:56.120 the trigger, the behavior, and the results. So let's say 0:20:56.160 --> 0:20:59.320 stress eating, for example. If anxiety is the trigger my 0:20:59.400 --> 0:21:02.640 behavior stress eating, then I could start to map those 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:04.600 out and then see what the result is. You know, 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:08.199 do I doesn't actually fix the anxiety generally not? Does 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.600 it make me feel worse? Yes, in those types of things. 0:21:11.640 --> 0:21:14.800 So the mapping process is really just anything that helps 0:21:14.880 --> 0:21:17.320 us see, you know, what's the trigger, what's the behavior, 0:21:17.320 --> 0:21:21.399 what's the result? Gotta And then you're saying there's three steps, 0:21:21.400 --> 0:21:25.159 So the second step in what are two and three? Yes, 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:27.639 the second step flows right from the first, which is 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:30.719 you know, and I guess a little bit of neuroscience 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.399 background here to explain this is our brain is only 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:37.480 going to change the behavior if it sees that that 0:21:37.560 --> 0:21:41.440 behavior is no longer rewarding. So uh, and if it's 0:21:41.520 --> 0:21:45.119 more rewarding than previous, then we're going to actually hold 0:21:45.119 --> 0:21:48.320 onto it. Even more so with unhealthy habits like smoking, 0:21:49.000 --> 0:21:52.479 we have to pay attention to the direct experience right 0:21:52.480 --> 0:21:54.320 in the moment when we smoke, so we can line 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:57.280 up that cause and effect relationship between the behavior and 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:00.679 the results. So I have my patients. I tell my 0:22:00.720 --> 0:22:02.760 patients to actually smoke when they want to come and 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:06.320 quit smoking. They look at me like I'm crazy, and 0:22:06.800 --> 0:22:09.600 I say, no, that's actually really important. You have to 0:22:09.640 --> 0:22:12.000 see what you're getting from smoking right now. And they 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.320 realize that cigarettes stays like crap right so they start 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:18.800 to become disenchanted with it simply by paying attention as 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.000 they smoke. Same is true for worrying. When somebody's worrying, 0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:24.640 I have them really pay attention. What does it feel 0:22:24.680 --> 0:22:26.919 like when you worry? Does it solve the problem? Does 0:22:26.960 --> 0:22:28.960 it keep your family safe? Does it do what you 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:31.920 think it is doing? And when they can clearly see 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:34.320 that it's not keeping somebody safe, it's actually making it 0:22:34.359 --> 0:22:37.480 harder for them to perform whatever that's when they start 0:22:37.520 --> 0:22:40.679 to become disenchanted with the behavior. So that's the second step, 0:22:41.240 --> 0:22:45.359 is really paying attention to the results of what you're 0:22:45.400 --> 0:22:48.119 what the behavior is, whether it's physical or mental. I 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:50.600 can give you an example. My lab just finished to 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.320 study where we embedded a tool to help people pay 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.479 attention as they were over eating in this eat right 0:22:57.520 --> 0:23:00.119 now app And it only took ten or fift in 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.520 times of somebody really paying attention as they overrate for 0:23:03.600 --> 0:23:07.080 that reward value to drop below zero, where they shifted 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:09.800 that behavior from over eating to not over eating. Does 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:13.639 that make sense? Yeah, absolutely, that's actually not that many times. 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:16.320 It's not it's you know, and it's it makes sense 0:23:16.359 --> 0:23:19.280 because our brains are very plastic. We can't be chased 0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.919 by saber tooth tigers fifteen times, you know, and and 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:24.359 hope that we get away all fifteen It's like we 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:27.120 have to learn really quickly that those things are dangerous, 0:23:27.640 --> 0:23:30.080 and so our brains are I think they're set up 0:23:30.119 --> 0:23:32.479 to learn very quickly. But the key there is we 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:36.520 have to pay careful attention. That's that's the key, careful 0:23:36.560 --> 0:23:41.120 attention and repetition. I know that you've mentioned smaller windows 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.600 of time throughout the day, which at the beginning I'm like, 0:23:44.600 --> 0:23:46.280 I can't remember to do this, and then all of 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:49.679 a sudden I find myself like noting, like, oh I'm 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:53.560 hearing seeing I've probably done it like six, six or 0:23:53.600 --> 0:23:57.040 seven times this morning. And that's I think also such 0:23:57.040 --> 0:24:00.320 a key piece and something that I think we get 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:02.640 so caught up in our busy lives that we forget 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:06.040 that we're also you know, break trying to break a 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:09.640 habit and and step out of our habitual behaviors. And 0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:14.520 you talk about curiosity often. I wish I wonder if 0:24:14.520 --> 0:24:17.840 you could just or expand on that more why that 0:24:17.960 --> 0:24:21.760 is so important when it comes to uh to changing 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:25.040 a habit. Sure, so that that first step of mapping 0:24:25.040 --> 0:24:27.800 out our habit loops leads to the second step, which 0:24:27.840 --> 0:24:31.199 is helping our brains see how unrewarding the old behavior is. 0:24:31.640 --> 0:24:34.600 But that then sets up this sets the stage for 0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:37.159 the third step, which I think of as the b 0:24:37.280 --> 0:24:40.600 BO the bigger better offer. So if our brain becomes 0:24:40.640 --> 0:24:45.600 disenchanted with overeating or worrying or procrastinating or whatever, it 0:24:45.640 --> 0:24:47.960 opens the space for our brain to do something that's 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:51.080 more rewarding, to bring in a healthy habit, and here 0:24:51.320 --> 0:24:53.360 I think one of the healthiest habits we can have 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:58.800 is being curious. So curiosity helps us in many in 0:24:58.920 --> 0:25:01.280 multitude of ways. I think of it as a superpower. 0:25:01.320 --> 0:25:04.040 A couple of concrete ways that it becomes that bigger 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:08.240 better offer is when we're anxious, you know, anxiety kind 0:25:08.240 --> 0:25:12.360 of closes us down, it makes us restless. Curiosity opens 0:25:12.480 --> 0:25:14.919 us up right, and so you can't be closed and 0:25:15.080 --> 0:25:18.720 open at the same time because their binary opposites. So 0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:22.000 you can kind of inject curiosity into the moment when 0:25:22.040 --> 0:25:24.760 we're curious, and we can get curious. I'm sorry, when 0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.760 we're anxious, when we get and when we're anxious, we 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.600 can get curious about what that anxiety feels like. Oh 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:32.760 what does this feel like? Guess coming bad to Oh no, 0:25:32.960 --> 0:25:37.840 I'm anxious again. That, oh opens us up and also 0:25:38.280 --> 0:25:41.920 feels better. The other thing it does because it helps 0:25:42.000 --> 0:25:44.800 us gain some perspective. So you can think of there's 0:25:44.840 --> 0:25:47.760 this thing called the observer effect in physics where you know, 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:50.840 by observing, they were trying to measure the massive electrons 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:52.640 and they would hit it with pot hit the electrons 0:25:52.640 --> 0:25:55.399 with photons, and they noticed that they were actually changing 0:25:55.440 --> 0:25:57.959 the mass the measurement by by doing that, So they 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.439 called this the observer effect. By observe ring, you're going 0:26:00.480 --> 0:26:03.600 to affect the results. Well, within psychology, we can do 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:07.359 the same thing. By observing thoughts and emotions. We can 0:26:07.400 --> 0:26:11.640 actually affect the results, and we affect them by helping 0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:15.359 to gain perspective. We get some distance between ourselves and 0:26:15.440 --> 0:26:18.639 our thoughts and our ourselves and our emotions as compared 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:22.240 to being identified with them. And what helps us get 0:26:22.280 --> 0:26:26.359 that distance is curiosity. Oh here's the thought, Oh here's 0:26:26.359 --> 0:26:29.840 an emotion, as compared to Oh, no, I am anxious, 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:34.440 or I am an anxious person. Interesting, we're talking about 0:26:34.520 --> 0:26:37.000 part of mindfulness. Meditation is to bring openness to the 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:41.640 body where there once was contraction. Um which you consider 0:26:41.720 --> 0:26:45.520 the openness and the curiosity the reward. So for me 0:26:45.560 --> 0:26:47.800 and I think maybe some people can relate to this. 0:26:47.880 --> 0:26:52.160 When the feeling of anxiety feels more comfortable than being 0:26:52.240 --> 0:26:57.160 open and relaxed, how can we begin to see that 0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:01.400 openness as a reward. You know, I've done a lot 0:27:01.400 --> 0:27:04.080 of meditation and that that openness does feel like a 0:27:04.119 --> 0:27:07.320 reward in meditation, But then I step out into the 0:27:07.359 --> 0:27:10.879 real world and it becomes a lot of things trigger 0:27:11.000 --> 0:27:16.879 me to contract, and so sometimes that openness doesn't feel safe. 0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:19.439 So when when we look at when we see that 0:27:19.520 --> 0:27:22.800 openness maybe as a lack of safety or or a loss, 0:27:23.400 --> 0:27:27.040 how how do we start to tap into these feelings 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:32.520 of openness and curiosity to where that becomes the reward. 0:27:32.600 --> 0:27:35.240 Does that make sense? Yeah, it's a great question. So 0:27:35.400 --> 0:27:38.880 here I think of the curiosity is helping us see 0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:43.560 things clearly, helping us see without bias. So we might 0:27:43.640 --> 0:27:46.600 go out into the world and there might be something 0:27:47.080 --> 0:27:50.520 that our brain says, oh, that could be dangerous if 0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:55.399 we are basing that on things that we have learned 0:27:55.400 --> 0:27:58.480 in the past. So, for example, implicit biases. This way, 0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:01.760 we if somebody sees another person with a different skin 0:28:01.840 --> 0:28:05.440 color and they have been implicitly conditioned to think that 0:28:05.440 --> 0:28:09.480 that's a dangerous person, then their fear mechanism might kick 0:28:09.520 --> 0:28:11.680 in and they say, oh, there's danger here, and then 0:28:11.680 --> 0:28:14.840 they turn away and they actually perpetuate that bias. Right, 0:28:15.359 --> 0:28:18.679 So notice how there's no curiosity there, there's no openness. 0:28:19.600 --> 0:28:23.280 The curiosity helps us see clearly where we might be 0:28:23.520 --> 0:28:25.800 built to identify. Oh, I you know, I have this 0:28:25.840 --> 0:28:30.760 implicit bias. I'm noticing my body contracting here just because 0:28:30.800 --> 0:28:34.720 it's been conditioned this way. Can I open and ask, oh, 0:28:34.840 --> 0:28:38.360 is there actual actually danger here as compared to just 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:41.400 something that my brain has been conditioned to do. So 0:28:41.440 --> 0:28:46.440 the openness isn't necessarily gonna it's gonna help us see clearly, 0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:48.800 help us see when something is dangerous, and help us 0:28:48.800 --> 0:28:52.440 see when something isn't dangerous as compared to just you know, 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:55.520 utilizing our lizard brain, so to speak, where we see 0:28:55.560 --> 0:28:58.280 something and we run away immediately, and then that actually 0:28:58.320 --> 0:29:02.120 just perpetuates whatever that how it is? So that does 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:06.480 that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely? Um, which then goes 0:29:06.480 --> 0:29:09.520 back as I'm saying that I'm like, which goes back 0:29:09.560 --> 0:29:12.880 to the feeling and the body then sometimes not leaving 0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:16.440 us access to that openness in a in a real 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:19.240 life situation. I guess what that basically is is just 0:29:19.400 --> 0:29:23.800 us continuing to train ourselves in our own time so 0:29:23.880 --> 0:29:26.760 that we can react differently out in the world. Right. 0:29:26.800 --> 0:29:29.000 And one way we can do that is, you know, 0:29:29.040 --> 0:29:31.320 if we if we're out in the world and something, 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:34.240 you know, triggers our fear and we run away, we 0:29:34.280 --> 0:29:37.120 can look back at that as soon thereafter as possible, 0:29:37.160 --> 0:29:40.880 because you know, we learned best from immediacy. So we 0:29:40.920 --> 0:29:43.760 look back and we say, was that actually dangerous? And 0:29:43.840 --> 0:29:46.280 so we can get curious in that moment after we've 0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:48.880 already fled the scene, so to speak, and if it 0:29:48.960 --> 0:29:51.720 was actually dangerous, then we can we can line that 0:29:51.840 --> 0:29:54.360 up and say, okay, that was dangerous. I need to 0:29:54.400 --> 0:29:57.200 do that again. We learned if we say, oh, maybe 0:29:57.240 --> 0:29:59.920 I was just conditioned to do this or that maybe 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:02.800 it wasn't as dangerous after all, we can get curious 0:30:02.840 --> 0:30:04.880 and you know, even go back and relive it and 0:30:04.880 --> 0:30:07.440 see what was it the triggered me. We can learn 0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:10.480 something about our own minds and our own reactivity, and 0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:13.920 then in future situations we can see, you know, is 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:16.440 this similar? Can I turn towards this? Can I be 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:18.920 open to this? Can I get curious? Oh? Is this 0:30:19.000 --> 0:30:22.040 my mind reacting in a way that is that is 0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:25.040 habitual or conditioned, So that we can start to lean 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.640 into that discomfort rather than run away. Then I'll also 0:30:28.680 --> 0:30:32.720 point out any new experience is going to be felt 0:30:32.760 --> 0:30:35.440 as a little uncomfortable to our brains and to us 0:30:35.520 --> 0:30:38.440 because our brain is saying, hey, this is different. Make 0:30:38.480 --> 0:30:41.640 sure there's no danger here, so of course we need 0:30:41.680 --> 0:30:44.360 to make sure that the scene is safe. But then 0:30:44.840 --> 0:30:47.520 we instead of kind of moving into our panic zone, 0:30:47.600 --> 0:30:50.080 we can move into our growth zone and instead of going, 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:53.320 oh no, this is dangerous, go oh what is going 0:30:53.360 --> 0:30:56.880 on here? Is this my brain, you know, just reacting 0:30:56.920 --> 0:30:59.480 to something, And then we can lean in and we 0:30:59.520 --> 0:31:02.520 can grow and we can learn. M hm. You talk 0:31:02.600 --> 0:31:06.880 about mindset, which you just mentioned, a growth mindset compared 0:31:06.920 --> 0:31:09.240 to a fixed mindset. Can you explain what those are 0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:12.680 and why those are so important and uh in changing 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:17.040 our habits. Yes, these terms were first coined by Carol Dwack, 0:31:17.080 --> 0:31:20.560 who's a Stanford professor, and she was doing a lot 0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:24.920 of research in the education space long story short, looking 0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:27.200 at people who felt that they only had a certain 0:31:27.240 --> 0:31:30.080 level of intelligence. For example, they didn't learn as much 0:31:30.080 --> 0:31:34.600 as people who could learn that their brains are plastic. Basically, 0:31:34.600 --> 0:31:37.440 this is even way before you know these buzzwords of 0:31:37.480 --> 0:31:40.840 neuroplasticity and other things where came around. And I love 0:31:40.840 --> 0:31:44.280 her terminology because it fits beautifully with this sense of 0:31:44.320 --> 0:31:47.960 feeling closed and open, you know, with anxiety feeling closed 0:31:47.960 --> 0:31:51.960 and curiosity feeling open. When we're closed we're in fixed mindset. 0:31:52.120 --> 0:31:54.120 You know, this is the way things are. We're not 0:31:54.280 --> 0:31:57.440 actually in a place where we can learn. When we 0:31:57.480 --> 0:32:00.800 can inject curiosity, for example, we and then move into 0:32:00.840 --> 0:32:03.960 that growth mindset and we can open to it. So, 0:32:04.480 --> 0:32:09.280 for example, if I say something nutty on a podcast, 0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:14.440 for example, just hypothetically speaking, afterwards, I could go and regret, 0:32:14.480 --> 0:32:16.360 you know, start going over in my mind what I 0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:18.240 call review and regret. I could review it, and I 0:32:18.280 --> 0:32:20.120 could regret that I said that, and then you know, 0:32:20.120 --> 0:32:22.480 I get stuck in this fixed mindset. Oh, I'm terrible 0:32:22.520 --> 0:32:25.640 on podcasts. Nobody's gonna invite me, you know, blah blah blah, 0:32:25.640 --> 0:32:27.560 I'm gonna I'm gonna end up in the gutter, you know. 0:32:27.800 --> 0:32:31.560 And so instead of that, I could look back and say, wow, 0:32:32.080 --> 0:32:34.800 I said something kind of nutty, and that wow, that, 0:32:34.960 --> 0:32:37.880 oh could open me where I could look and learn, 0:32:37.960 --> 0:32:39.560 and I could look at what happened. I could learn 0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:43.040 from it, and that puts me in growth mindset to say, Okay, 0:32:43.200 --> 0:32:46.520 you know, maybe don't explain it that way next time. 0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:51.440 You know, it's funny. I I feel like at a 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:53.160 certain point in life, you kind of feel like you 0:32:53.240 --> 0:32:57.440 stopped learning and you get into you know you you think, oh, 0:32:57.480 --> 0:33:00.400 I'm at a certain age. It's like my growth mindset 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:03.680 is now a fixed mindset. It's very easy to do. 0:33:03.760 --> 0:33:05.840 I guess that was that was something that hit me 0:33:05.880 --> 0:33:10.640 in the book because I recognized how often it's so 0:33:10.680 --> 0:33:13.520 easy to slip into a fixed mindset because we have 0:33:14.040 --> 0:33:15.960 you know, I mean, I'm I'm only thirty eight, but 0:33:16.000 --> 0:33:17.280 I feel like I have you know, I have a 0:33:17.280 --> 0:33:18.920 lot of I think we go into this thing and 0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:21.280 I have a lot of experience, and it becomes you 0:33:21.280 --> 0:33:24.880 start to pull from that fixed experience instead of opening 0:33:24.920 --> 0:33:30.360 yourself up to you know, God, I mean the uh, 0:33:30.440 --> 0:33:34.280 you know, multitude of possibility that exists in the universe, 0:33:34.320 --> 0:33:38.840 because that feels unsafe. You know. We feel very safe 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:41.080 in our own little experience and this is what I 0:33:41.120 --> 0:33:44.480 know world. Um, And so that really that really hit me. 0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:47.080 I was like, oh, I I am in a fixed 0:33:47.080 --> 0:33:50.040 mindset often and I haven't even recognized because for me, 0:33:50.800 --> 0:33:54.479 I like to learn, and I often think that I 0:33:54.520 --> 0:33:59.040 am in a growth mindset. I'm probably not. Yeah, you know, 0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:01.880 You're you're pointing out something really important. There's this tension 0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:04.720 between kind of our old and our new brains, and 0:34:04.760 --> 0:34:08.680 they're both trying to help us survive. So the you know, 0:34:08.719 --> 0:34:13.200 the old brain you find food avoid danger, is helped 0:34:13.239 --> 0:34:15.760 by the our newer parts of our brain and neo cortex, 0:34:15.800 --> 0:34:19.279 which help us think and plan. And what what are 0:34:19.320 --> 0:34:21.280 thinking and planning brains are trying to do is predict 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:25.320 the future. And when there's uncertainty, it's harder to predict 0:34:25.360 --> 0:34:28.520 the future. So if we can kind of walk around 0:34:28.760 --> 0:34:31.960 or insulate ourselves and live more in a bubble where 0:34:32.040 --> 0:34:35.400 we only associate with certain people that say certain things, 0:34:35.480 --> 0:34:38.040 you know, it feels comfortable. If we live in a 0:34:38.120 --> 0:34:40.600 house that's safe, it feels comfortable, and so we're more 0:34:40.640 --> 0:34:43.000 likely to stay in our house as compared to adventure 0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:46.480 outside where there's you know, there's less certainty. So that 0:34:46.600 --> 0:34:48.799 survival part of the brain is saying, hey, try to 0:34:48.840 --> 0:34:53.000 make the world as predictable as possible. Yet the world 0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:56.680 is not predictable, you know, we don't have control over 0:34:56.680 --> 0:35:00.239 the world. So it's this it's this tension between at 0:35:00.440 --> 0:35:04.520 and then being able to be open to learn when 0:35:04.560 --> 0:35:08.880 things are constantly changing, and so both can help, but 0:35:09.040 --> 0:35:12.719 having that growth mindset and constantly going outside of our 0:35:12.719 --> 0:35:16.680 comfort zones to challenge ourselves but also finding the reward 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:18.680 in that. I think you highlighted one piece of this. 0:35:19.120 --> 0:35:21.680 It feels great to learn things, right, so if we 0:35:21.719 --> 0:35:24.279 can remember, oh, it feels good to learn things. If 0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:27.400 we can remember, don't only you know, watch the news 0:35:27.440 --> 0:35:30.279 that we have, you know that we that we associate 0:35:30.360 --> 0:35:32.839 with like watch all the news and see however, you know, 0:35:33.120 --> 0:35:36.799 so we can really challenge ourselves to to be in 0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.960 that growth mindset and see that as a benefit as 0:35:41.040 --> 0:35:44.080 compared to just trying to wall ourselves off. You know, 0:35:44.640 --> 0:35:47.560 it might feel uncomfortable at the beginning, but as we 0:35:47.680 --> 0:35:52.440 learned to lean into uncertainty, then the joy that comes 0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:56.640 with discovery can be its own reward. Yeah. Absolutely, And 0:35:57.360 --> 0:35:59.640 there is joy and discovery. And I thank you for 0:35:59.719 --> 0:36:02.200 saying that because I really hope that people take that 0:36:02.280 --> 0:36:05.359 in because it's been something for me that, even through 0:36:05.360 --> 0:36:09.200 this podcast, to be curious. You know, people have always 0:36:09.200 --> 0:36:11.880 been curious about me. I've always been the one um 0:36:12.040 --> 0:36:15.400 being asked the questions, and it's so different to be 0:36:15.440 --> 0:36:18.600 on the other side and be the one, you know, 0:36:18.920 --> 0:36:21.319 that is curious and and it's been it's been really 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:23.719 fun to do that. Some key pieces that you emphasize 0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:25.480 when it comes to mindfulness and when it comes to 0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:28.399 changing habits is one is non judgment and the other 0:36:28.560 --> 0:36:31.480 is kindness um which I think a lot of us 0:36:31.480 --> 0:36:35.480 struggle with, especially you have that internal dialogue of constantly 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:38.799 beating yourself up. These are two pieces that I think 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:41.160 are super important. I wonder if you could just kind 0:36:41.160 --> 0:36:45.120 of expand upon that and also loving kindness and how 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:48.680 that how bringing loving kindness to these pieces of us 0:36:48.760 --> 0:36:52.919 that we are looking to shift, how that plays a role? Sure, 0:36:53.320 --> 0:36:56.799 so maybe we could even use examples of say anxiety 0:36:56.800 --> 0:37:00.080 and judgment, just to give concrete examples. So if we 0:37:00.120 --> 0:37:03.080 can map out a habit around anxiety, So for example, 0:37:03.080 --> 0:37:06.399 anxiety triggers the mental behavior worrying, and we can start 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.000 to see that worrying doesn't keep our families safe, it 0:37:09.040 --> 0:37:12.440 doesn't solve the problem. We become disenchanted with it. We 0:37:12.480 --> 0:37:16.960 can then substitute curiosity for worry. So when we're anxious, 0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:19.560 we get curious, Oh, you know, what does this feel like? 0:37:20.200 --> 0:37:21.839 Where do I feel it? Most of my body? All 0:37:21.880 --> 0:37:24.279 of those things, and that can open us to our 0:37:24.400 --> 0:37:27.520 direct experience. In the same way, we can start mapping 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:30.640 out self judgment habit loops and I write a bit 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:33.960 about this in my book because it is so pervasive unfortunately, 0:37:34.960 --> 0:37:38.440 where for example, if we um, if we do something 0:37:38.480 --> 0:37:40.680 that we regret, we start to feel shame and then 0:37:40.680 --> 0:37:43.680 we start to so that could trigger us to judge ourselves. Oh, 0:37:43.719 --> 0:37:46.719 I can't believe I did that, and then we beat 0:37:46.880 --> 0:37:49.759 You know that beating ourselves up is doing something, just 0:37:49.800 --> 0:37:52.000 like worrying is doing something, So there could be a 0:37:52.040 --> 0:37:54.920 reward in that. Because it doesn't it can't change the past, 0:37:54.960 --> 0:37:57.520 but we can beat ourselves up for it. You know, Okay, 0:37:57.560 --> 0:38:00.239 I'm doing something. We can start to turn towards that 0:38:00.800 --> 0:38:04.759 and notice that that also feels closed and contracted. Then 0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:06.960 we can bring in, you know, this third step, this 0:38:07.000 --> 0:38:11.319 bigger better offer. What feels better than judging ourselves well, 0:38:11.360 --> 0:38:14.759 being kind to ourselves, truly being kind to ourselves. So 0:38:15.080 --> 0:38:18.080 they are just simple acts of kindness. We can remember 0:38:18.080 --> 0:38:20.800 what it's like when somebody has been kind to us already. 0:38:20.880 --> 0:38:23.400 That opens us up and helps us step out of 0:38:23.400 --> 0:38:25.839 that old habit of self judgment. And this is where 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:30.560 loving kindness comes in. Specifically, you know that it's glove 0:38:30.600 --> 0:38:34.880 and kindness is really about tapping into our inherent capacity 0:38:34.920 --> 0:38:38.400 to be kind. It's really tapping into this opening quality 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:42.040 that comes with kindness. And you know, My Love has 0:38:42.080 --> 0:38:44.680 even done your imaging studies to look at people's brains 0:38:44.960 --> 0:38:49.600 as they practice love and kindness. Interestingly, the same brain 0:38:49.680 --> 0:38:52.279 regions that get really active when we're caught up in 0:38:52.360 --> 0:38:57.759 worry quiet down when we are practicing loving kindness. And 0:38:57.760 --> 0:39:00.680 the idea is, as you know, you can't be closed 0:39:00.680 --> 0:39:04.840 and open the same time, so loving kindness opens us 0:39:04.920 --> 0:39:08.920 up simply. You know. It's you know, we can use 0:39:09.000 --> 0:39:12.239 phrases of you know, may I be happy, may I 0:39:12.320 --> 0:39:15.319 be kind to myself, you know, things like that that 0:39:15.440 --> 0:39:18.279 can help us tap into it. But it's really that 0:39:18.400 --> 0:39:22.880 feeling of opening that comes when when we're kind to 0:39:22.920 --> 0:39:25.640 ourselves or when somebody is being kind to us. So 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:28.799 we can even recall those moments and that opens us up, 0:39:28.880 --> 0:39:31.719 and that quiets down these brain regions that get caught 0:39:31.800 --> 0:39:35.439 up when we're judging ourselves or when we're worrying, And 0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:37.960 after we take a quick breather, it will be right 0:39:38.000 --> 0:39:40.480 back with more ways to tap into less judgment and 0:39:40.600 --> 0:39:48.040 less anxiety. Welcome back, everyone. We're diving into ways in 0:39:48.040 --> 0:39:53.760 which judgment can trigger anxiety. I find it so interesting 0:39:53.760 --> 0:39:57.879 that judgment in itself can be a habit loop, which 0:39:57.920 --> 0:40:00.600 I which then and for me it like in turn, 0:40:00.719 --> 0:40:04.560 I think I'm keeping myself safe by judging myself or 0:40:05.400 --> 0:40:07.840 my internal judge. Sometimes I feel like I have to 0:40:07.920 --> 0:40:10.560 drive myself to be able to do the things that 0:40:10.600 --> 0:40:13.359 I need to do. I found it mapping out these 0:40:13.360 --> 0:40:15.439 habit loops, by the way, which I also think could 0:40:15.440 --> 0:40:18.480 be a habit loop in itself. Constantly seeing the habit loops, 0:40:20.040 --> 0:40:24.840 it really is fascinating. And the idea of constantly having 0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:29.080 to have something external, you know, to soothe, even if 0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:31.960 it's a healthy habit, it always seems like it's it's 0:40:32.040 --> 0:40:35.400 external and not internal, and I want it to be 0:40:35.560 --> 0:40:39.840 from something I internally generate. And don't you already internally 0:40:39.880 --> 0:40:42.840 generate the judgment and everything, you know, everything else is 0:40:42.880 --> 0:40:49.480 internally generated. So we think of shifting to our internal uh, 0:40:49.600 --> 0:40:53.160 internal rewards instead of external rewards. I mean, the external 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:57.000 is not going anywhere. Our desires and are our wants, 0:40:57.040 --> 0:40:59.960 and those things will always be there. How do you 0:41:00.120 --> 0:41:03.359 find that balance? I guess it's almost like that that 0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:05.480 phrase of like being in the world but not of 0:41:05.520 --> 0:41:09.160 it most of like you where your external reward base, 0:41:09.200 --> 0:41:11.360 because I don't think we've ever been taught that really 0:41:11.440 --> 0:41:17.560 like the internal rewards are become what drives us instead 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:20.200 of the external. Yes, So I think there are two 0:41:20.239 --> 0:41:23.960 pieces here that we can tap into pragmatically. One is 0:41:24.200 --> 0:41:29.359 knowing that turning to something external. Our brains are set 0:41:29.440 --> 0:41:32.759 up to become habituated to things, so that basically so 0:41:32.840 --> 0:41:34.759 we can form habits and then we opens up our 0:41:34.760 --> 0:41:37.720 brains based to learn new things. So if our habit 0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:41.080 is to soothe ourselves through I'll just use an example 0:41:41.160 --> 0:41:45.040 of looking at cute pictures of puppies on Instagram for example, Right, 0:41:45.280 --> 0:41:48.319 puppies are darn cute. But if we turn to look 0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:52.600 at cute puppies when we're anxious, for example, our brain 0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:54.839 is going to get habituated to that, and then it says, Okay, 0:41:54.840 --> 0:41:57.160 I need cuter puppies. You know, I need puppies and kittens. 0:41:57.200 --> 0:41:59.080 I need puppies, kittens and babies, and it just goes 0:41:59.120 --> 0:42:02.799 on and on and on. So we become obituated and 0:42:02.800 --> 0:42:06.239 we're always grasping for more, and that grasping is just 0:42:06.320 --> 0:42:09.320 a natural habituation process because our brain is saying Okay, 0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:11.440 I've learned this, I want, you know, I need a 0:42:11.440 --> 0:42:14.320 free of space to learn something else. So just knowing 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:17.520 that if we look externally, we're always going to be looking. 0:42:17.520 --> 0:42:20.120 We're never gonna be satisfied, just the way our brains 0:42:20.160 --> 0:42:24.000 are set up. And if we look internally, it's not 0:42:24.160 --> 0:42:28.520 just looking for, you know, to generate happy thoughts for example, 0:42:29.040 --> 0:42:31.800 because that can we can also get habituated to those things. 0:42:32.280 --> 0:42:36.160 It's really looking to see what is rewarding in the 0:42:36.239 --> 0:42:39.520 sense of helping us open, you know, because well, my 0:42:39.600 --> 0:42:42.120 lab did another study on this where we looked at 0:42:42.120 --> 0:42:44.200 a bunch of different mental states to see which ones 0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:49.320 were naturally more rewarding than others, and categorically the ones 0:42:49.400 --> 0:42:52.120 that are more rewarding are the ones that feel open. 0:42:52.200 --> 0:42:56.240 So for example, kindness, connection, curiosity, they all feel open, 0:42:56.520 --> 0:43:00.719 and they all feel better than disconnection, than anxiety, than 0:43:00.760 --> 0:43:03.920 frustration and things like that. So anything that makes us 0:43:03.960 --> 0:43:07.480 feel closed, even if it's an internal thing, is going 0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:11.000 to probably not going to be as rewarding as finding 0:43:11.480 --> 0:43:19.360 internally findable um capacities like kindness and curiosity. And because 0:43:19.400 --> 0:43:23.000 they're open, my guess is that they don't become limited 0:43:23.600 --> 0:43:26.279 in the sense of us becoming habituated to them. They 0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:30.080 just feel different, right, We we don't run out of curiosity, 0:43:30.160 --> 0:43:32.920 We don't run out of kindness. And in fact, the 0:43:33.000 --> 0:43:35.680 kinder we are, the better it feels, and the more 0:43:35.719 --> 0:43:38.040 we want to be kind the more curious we are, 0:43:38.080 --> 0:43:39.799 the better it feels, the more we want to be 0:43:39.880 --> 0:43:42.239 more curious in the future. So they actually kind of 0:43:42.280 --> 0:43:44.920 pay it forward in that sense. Mm hmm. I love 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:48.520 that thought, paying it forward. This might be a weird question. 0:43:48.800 --> 0:43:52.200 Everything seems like it is a habit, and for me 0:43:52.360 --> 0:43:54.759 it's been a bit overwhelming to see that and to 0:43:54.920 --> 0:43:58.239 really acknowledge that. How we try to get to like 0:43:58.280 --> 0:44:03.839 the basis of something like the core issue is there 0:44:04.400 --> 0:44:06.680 when we start to see all of these different habit loops. 0:44:07.480 --> 0:44:13.759 Is there a core habit that, if discovered, can start 0:44:13.880 --> 0:44:16.680 to shift all these other little habit loops? Is that it? 0:44:16.760 --> 0:44:22.200 Does that make sense? Yes, there isn't one core you know, 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.840 like that is the mother habit of the hive, of 0:44:24.880 --> 0:44:28.160 all the little worker be habits, so to speak. That's 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:31.080 kind of what I was saying. So we but there 0:44:31.160 --> 0:44:37.280 is one core mother habit process that then is spun 0:44:37.320 --> 0:44:42.080 out into all the the you think of as the phenotypes, 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:46.080 the different habits that we have. So knowing the process, 0:44:46.200 --> 0:44:49.160 you know that it trigger is gonna trigger a behavior, 0:44:49.160 --> 0:44:51.359 and that behavior is going to drive you know, have 0:44:51.400 --> 0:44:54.440 some result. And the more rewarding that result is, the 0:44:54.480 --> 0:44:57.959 more likely we are to do that. That just knowing 0:44:58.000 --> 0:45:00.480 that process, I would think of that as a's where 0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:04.040 you get at the queen bee of of the mind. 0:45:04.760 --> 0:45:08.239 And once we get there, we can start to see, Okay, 0:45:08.440 --> 0:45:11.359 this queen bee makes a bunch of worker bees. Those 0:45:11.360 --> 0:45:15.160 worker bees can be unhelpful habits like overeating and procrastinating 0:45:15.160 --> 0:45:18.640 and worrying, but it can also generate helpful habits like 0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:22.799 kindness and curiosity. So that's the that's where I would say, 0:45:23.000 --> 0:45:27.120 you know, understanding that, that's the core that we need 0:45:27.200 --> 0:45:30.440 to understand. And it's beautiful. You know, when we do 0:45:30.480 --> 0:45:33.279 studies with our unwinning anxiety app or or eat right 0:45:33.320 --> 0:45:36.480 Now app, or even our smoking app, people come to 0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:40.040 us and they say, you know, I learned about this habit, 0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:43.280 whether it's eating or smoking or anxiety, but it actually 0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:45.359 helped me learn about this and this and this and 0:45:45.400 --> 0:45:48.759 this and this habit as well. And so they kind 0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:52.200 of generalize that knowledge into wisdom. And when when I 0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:54.600 see them generate that into wisdom, then I know they've 0:45:54.600 --> 0:45:58.279 really they've really found the queen got it. Yeah, it's 0:45:58.440 --> 0:46:00.360 if I think about it, for me, kind of the 0:46:00.719 --> 0:46:05.480 core of that knowing that pattern these feelings they don't 0:46:05.520 --> 0:46:09.080 feel as good, you know, like judgment and worry and 0:46:09.080 --> 0:46:12.040 and anxiety, all the all of the you know, sadness. 0:46:12.080 --> 0:46:15.080 I look at I look at those and think, basically, 0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:20.240 I've connected a habit of living in those feelings instead 0:46:20.280 --> 0:46:23.560 of living in other feelings because that's what I knew, like, 0:46:23.640 --> 0:46:26.640 that's what's felt safe. So if I think of it 0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:30.960 in that way very simplistically, um, of I'm just need 0:46:31.040 --> 0:46:34.319 to move over into these other feelings. Um, that's kind 0:46:34.320 --> 0:46:37.920 of what feels like the core of you know, of 0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:43.000 it of how I've my whole patterning has developed over 0:46:43.040 --> 0:46:45.759 the years. Yes, And the beautiful part here is that 0:46:45.960 --> 0:46:50.880 awareness will help us naturally move without us having to 0:46:51.000 --> 0:46:54.719 do anything. So really, if we are, for example, these 0:46:54.719 --> 0:46:57.800 three steps, awareness underlies all of them. If we're aware 0:46:57.800 --> 0:46:59.680 of our habit lives right and can map them out, 0:47:00.080 --> 0:47:01.960 then our brain will be able to see, oh, these 0:47:01.960 --> 0:47:04.200 are my habit looks. We don't. There's no force there, 0:47:04.239 --> 0:47:07.840 there's no effort beyond just the mapping process. If we 0:47:07.920 --> 0:47:10.480 get curious and ask ourselves what am I getting from this? 0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:13.640 In that second step where we start to become aware 0:47:13.640 --> 0:47:17.400 of the results of the behavior, again no effort, but 0:47:17.680 --> 0:47:20.080 as as we can see in our own in my 0:47:20.120 --> 0:47:22.920 own research studies, as people become aware of over eating, 0:47:22.920 --> 0:47:25.840 they stop over eating because that awareness helps them see, oh, 0:47:25.920 --> 0:47:28.960 this isn't help, this isn't doing it for me. Awareness 0:47:29.160 --> 0:47:32.560 can be that third step can be that bigger, better offer. 0:47:32.920 --> 0:47:36.040 If we think of awareness, is this curious awareness, or 0:47:36.080 --> 0:47:38.240 if we you know, we can even think of awareness 0:47:38.320 --> 0:47:42.479 is helping us see how rewarding kindness is. So all 0:47:42.520 --> 0:47:45.440 of all of these processes will naturally move us in 0:47:45.440 --> 0:47:50.160 the direction of curiosity and kindness simply by being curious ourselves. 0:47:51.280 --> 0:47:53.040 I love that because I you always think you have 0:47:53.120 --> 0:47:55.000 to do something. It's like, what do I have to do? 0:47:55.120 --> 0:47:57.120 How do I have to fix myself? And I think 0:47:57.160 --> 0:47:59.360 that's so beautiful what you just said. The awareness in 0:47:59.400 --> 0:48:03.240 itself will naturally move us in that direction. So anybody 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:06.200 like me, we can just all calm down. We can 0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:07.960 all calm down we don't have to do as much. 0:48:08.080 --> 0:48:10.960 We can just just essay, just but we can become 0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:13.759 more aware and be, you know, in the presence of 0:48:13.800 --> 0:48:17.840 what's happening. Thank you so much for lending your wisdom 0:48:18.080 --> 0:48:21.120 here today with me. I really do appreciate it. And 0:48:22.040 --> 0:48:24.440 I have something that I ask all of my guests, 0:48:25.000 --> 0:48:28.680 because music obviously is my thing I love. I love 0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:31.880 knowing what is on your playlist. If there's five songs. 0:48:31.880 --> 0:48:33.879 We have something called the Holy Five. If there's five 0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:36.880 songs that you are digging or have or over your 0:48:36.920 --> 0:48:40.840 lifetime or your favorites. Um, and why I'd love to know. Well, 0:48:40.880 --> 0:48:45.319 you know this is an impossible question, do it, though, 0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:50.479 you can do it. I love led Zeppelin and yeah, 0:48:50.560 --> 0:48:53.920 so there's I mean everyone, they everything from their blues 0:48:53.960 --> 0:48:55.680 to their hard rock. You know. So if you just 0:48:55.760 --> 0:48:58.839 think of like Cashmir Black Dog, like those are just 0:48:59.840 --> 0:49:03.960 amazing songs. Um. Yeah, I love R E M. The 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:06.279 End of the World as we know it is such 0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:10.960 a great song. And then there's Jeff Buckley his rendition 0:49:11.320 --> 0:49:16.759 of um, Hallelujah, that was who I'm blanking. Who's the 0:49:16.800 --> 0:49:20.040 guy with a very low voice that wrote the song? Yes, 0:49:20.120 --> 0:49:24.160 Leonard Cohen, thank you. Um so Jeff Buckley just ethereal 0:49:24.320 --> 0:49:28.279 the way he sings Hallelujah. So I love yes, Yes, 0:49:28.360 --> 0:49:33.239 I just yes. I love Radiohead. Um, you know you're 0:49:33.239 --> 0:49:36.279 a rock guy. I love it, but very eclectic rock. Yeah. Yeah, 0:49:36.320 --> 0:49:40.040 well there's just so many great artists out there. So Karma, 0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:45.640 what's the Radiohead song? Karma was just about to say 0:49:45.640 --> 0:49:47.279 that that. I was like, there's no way, that's right, 0:49:47.440 --> 0:49:51.640 Karma Police again. You know, just such a different sound 0:49:51.960 --> 0:49:56.719 and brilliant. I mean that that the music is brilliant. 0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:59.919 So you know, I would I would list those five 0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:01.879 just off the you know, kind of off the top 0:50:01.920 --> 0:50:03.680 of my head, and then I could go on for 0:50:03.800 --> 0:50:06.560 hours about all the other music that I love. I 0:50:06.680 --> 0:50:09.440 love it. You love music though. Yeah. I grew up 0:50:09.440 --> 0:50:13.400 playing violin, you know, classical violin, and so I've just 0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:16.960 learned to appreciate really good music. Like I could go 0:50:17.120 --> 0:50:19.600 on and on and on. You know, like Metallica, they 0:50:19.600 --> 0:50:21.799 write great music. You know, they performed with the San 0:50:21.840 --> 0:50:25.040 Francisco Orchestra. You know, they had an album with them 0:50:25.080 --> 0:50:27.960 that was awesome. Yeah, wait, when did you when did 0:50:28.000 --> 0:50:29.920 you start playing violin? Hold for you? I think I 0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:33.120 was five. Oh wow, is it something you still do? 0:50:33.400 --> 0:50:37.160 I do. I still play quartets with folks that I 0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:39.920 played in the orchestra in college and they happened, you know, 0:50:39.960 --> 0:50:42.840 some folks that live in the area. So yeah, that's 0:50:42.840 --> 0:50:45.520 so cool. Something I did not know about you. Yeah, 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:48.440 I had a semi professional quartet in grad school that 0:50:48.520 --> 0:50:50.879 helped pay the bills because we you know, we can 0:50:50.960 --> 0:50:53.200 charge a fair amount of money for weddings and things 0:50:53.239 --> 0:50:58.759 like that. I love that. That's amazing, very cool, love it. 0:50:59.360 --> 0:51:01.439 That'd be awesome of you. Should could totally come play 0:51:01.480 --> 0:51:04.200 with me one night. It's so fun. Thank you, so 0:51:04.320 --> 0:51:06.160 thank you, Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it, 0:51:06.160 --> 0:51:08.560 and thank you for your work and your book. Um 0:51:08.600 --> 0:51:12.160 it has really it's changed my life, so I appreciate it. Well, 0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:14.520 it's so great to hear that. That is very rewarding 0:51:14.560 --> 0:51:22.719 to hear. We'll continue on and that wraps up this 0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:25.239 episode of Holy Human. Thank you all so much for 0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:28.239 spending your time with me. I truly truly appreciate you. 0:51:28.719 --> 0:51:30.360 Feel free to share your thoughts with me in the 0:51:30.400 --> 0:51:33.040 comments wherever you're listening, and if you think this episode 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:35.760 might also benefit someone you know, please pass it along, 0:51:36.520 --> 0:51:41.000 so next time by everyone. On the next episode of 0:51:41.040 --> 0:51:44.560 Holy Human, you will meet the incredibly inspirational Larreya guest On, 0:51:45.040 --> 0:51:47.040 a woman who has chosen a life path that just 0:51:47.120 --> 0:51:49.920 might change the way that you see yours and the 0:51:49.920 --> 0:51:52.239 way you view the path others are on too. It 0:51:52.400 --> 0:51:54.839 is really really great stuff, so I hope you can 0:51:54.920 --> 0:51:57.120 join us and I can't wait to share it with you. 0:51:59.160 --> 0:52:02.319 Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes is a production of 0:52:02.360 --> 0:52:05.400 I Heart Radio. You'll find Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes 0:52:05.400 --> 0:52:07.920 on the I Heart app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:09.640 get the podcasts that matter most to you.