Speaker 1: Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes is a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hi everyone, today, we are diving into a
Speaker 1: topic that is near, but not exactly dear to me
Speaker 1: or you. I'm sure anxiety. Understanding and dancing with anxiety
Speaker 1: has made up a large part of my adult life,
Speaker 1: and I know I am not alone. My next guest
Speaker 1: calls anxiety a modern day epidemic, and he has an
Speaker 1: equally modern approach to countering it. I am so honored
Speaker 1: to welcome Dr Judd Brewer, the author of Unwinding Anxiety.
Speaker 1: New science shows how to break the cycles of worry
Speaker 1: and fear to heal your mind on today's Holy Human.
Speaker 1: Dr jad thank you for coming on the Holy Human podcast.
Speaker 1: I am so excited to talk to you about anxiety,
Speaker 1: which sounds very strange. It does sound funny, but I
Speaker 1: I just finished your book, Unwinding Anxiety, and I have
Speaker 1: I've also been working with your app for the last
Speaker 1: couple of weeks, and it really has been perfect timing
Speaker 1: to to connect with your book. I saw Sharon Salzburg
Speaker 1: actually post about it, and right before that, I was
Speaker 1: just in a therapy session talking to my therapist about
Speaker 1: addictions and in habits and I'm like, we're all just
Speaker 1: basically a bunch of habits. And and then I saw
Speaker 1: her post about your book and then started reading it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh my god, this is the most
Speaker 1: divine timing ever. So I just want to say thank
Speaker 1: you for creating this book because it has been the
Speaker 1: last couple of weeks really been opening me up to
Speaker 1: new ways of dealing with my anxiety, which I have
Speaker 1: dealt with for It's been a part of my life,
Speaker 1: I think, my whole life, to be honest, Well, I'm
Speaker 1: so glad to hear that it's it's healthy. Yeah, no,
Speaker 1: it definitely is. You know, so many of us are
Speaker 1: going through such an anxious time and I've been experiencing
Speaker 1: anxiety some of us our whole lives. You say that
Speaker 1: you feel like it's an epidemic. Can you explain why
Speaker 1: and how we got here? I'd be happy to so,
Speaker 1: as you're referring to and I jokingly say this in
Speaker 1: the book, you know BC before COVID nineteen, which seems
Speaker 1: like ancient times. Yes it does. We We all get anxious.
Speaker 1: Anxiety is part of life, and it is kind of
Speaker 1: born from the survival mechanism in our brain, which takes
Speaker 1: a lack of information or uncertain tea and kind of
Speaker 1: spins that into a driving force to go get information.
Speaker 1: The way I think of it is, you know, when
Speaker 1: we're hungry and we have a we're low on calories,
Speaker 1: our stomach rumbles and that urges us to get off
Speaker 1: our butts to go get some food. In the same way,
Speaker 1: when we have a lack of information, our brain rumbles
Speaker 1: and we have this urge to go get information. So
Speaker 1: you know, getting information is survival literally for our brain,
Speaker 1: just like getting food is survival for our body. Interesting.
Speaker 1: So I mean, and we are living in a time
Speaker 1: where information is coming at us twenty four seven. So
Speaker 1: is that obviously I feel like that's kind of driving
Speaker 1: home our anxiety even more and upping the anti Yes.
Speaker 1: I think there are several aspects here. One is you
Speaker 1: can think of it as uncertainty is that piece that's
Speaker 1: that's the motivating factor that says go get information. If
Speaker 1: you look at our ancient ancestors, there was certainly there
Speaker 1: was uncertainty, but it came in into and form. So
Speaker 1: for example, if there was a saber tooth tiger or
Speaker 1: a line or whatever it was that was coming to
Speaker 1: eat us. We didn't have to go on a chat
Speaker 1: for him and discuss how dangerous sabor two tigers were.
Speaker 1: We didn't, you know, we didn't. Our brain wasn't like,
Speaker 1: is that a deep faked have they? No? Deep faked
Speaker 1: savor two tigers? You know? So back then it was
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward. You see the tiger, you run. And now
Speaker 1: not only is your pointing out, is there a whole
Speaker 1: lot more information? You know? The Internet has allowed us
Speaker 1: to get information seven, but we all also have to
Speaker 1: sift through that constantly to see what is accurate, what
Speaker 1: is real, you know, and what is worth listening to? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I know from myself it's this constant do
Speaker 1: I believe what I'm reading? Which can cause anxiety in
Speaker 1: itself because you're like, well wait, what what is true?
Speaker 1: You know? And and that's uh, I think, especially during
Speaker 1: this past year when there's been so much you know,
Speaker 1: well not even just as Passive passed, probably four years
Speaker 1: more so than anything, you know, there's been just so
Speaker 1: much conflicting information and and I know for myself that's
Speaker 1: definitely driven up, driven by anxiety. Through there you take
Speaker 1: a mindfulness approach to anxiety, and I know we've talked
Speaker 1: a little bit about mindfulness on this podcast, but I
Speaker 1: was wondering if you could refresh our memory a bit
Speaker 1: about what mindfulness is and why it's such a key
Speaker 1: component in helping us work with our anxiety. I'd be
Speaker 1: happy to here. I would say, let's break it down
Speaker 1: into its core elements, because mindfulness can mean different things
Speaker 1: to different people. So here core elements really are awareness
Speaker 1: and an attitude of curiosity. Some describe it as non
Speaker 1: judgment I like curiosity, and I'll tell you why in
Speaker 1: a minute. But if we're bringing awareness and curiosity to
Speaker 1: our everyday experience, what it helps us do is to
Speaker 1: really start to see how our minds work. Because if
Speaker 1: we don't know how our minds work, we can't work
Speaker 1: with them. So it helps us see our our minds work.
Speaker 1: But then critically, it helps us really tap into the
Speaker 1: strongest parts of our brain, which ironically form habits in
Speaker 1: the first place around anxiety and worry and procrastination and
Speaker 1: other things. But that's actually the only place that we
Speaker 1: can change the habit is through updating the reward value
Speaker 1: in our brain. So we have to go to the
Speaker 1: place that it originates. And basically I mean basically utilize
Speaker 1: that piece to start to help us instead of work
Speaker 1: against us. We do, we do. I have tons of
Speaker 1: patients that come into my office that have no idea
Speaker 1: how their minds work, you know, and they've been pushed
Speaker 1: and pulled by anxiety or their entire lives, and you know,
Speaker 1: they've tried this and that, but they haven't been able
Speaker 1: to link up any consistent you know, I can do
Speaker 1: X in order to help my anxiety because they haven't
Speaker 1: really understood how their minds work. I think sometimes for me,
Speaker 1: I understand, I've I've you know, I read a lot
Speaker 1: of things, and I understand how the mind works. But
Speaker 1: some times the bodily sensations, sometimes the the old pro
Speaker 1: programming in the body can be so overwhelming that it's
Speaker 1: like whatever I learned about, you know, about how the
Speaker 1: mind works just kind of like goes out the window,
Speaker 1: and that that instinct takes over. You know. It's so
Speaker 1: interesting you say that because I degree, And I'll say
Speaker 1: the way I think of this is that our thinking
Speaker 1: brain doesn't hold a candle to our feeling body, so
Speaker 1: we can understand something is bad for us. For example,
Speaker 1: you know I shouldn't smoke, or I shouldn't overeat or
Speaker 1: I shouldn't worry. But that that we can't just understand it.
Speaker 1: Otherwise all my none of my patients would smoke, they'd
Speaker 1: all quit smoking, or they never start smoking in the
Speaker 1: first place, because they knew it was bad for them.
Speaker 1: So it's really these urges, these primitive survival instincts that
Speaker 1: have gotten kind of caught up in modern day where
Speaker 1: food is designed to be addictive, where social media is
Speaker 1: designed to be addictive, where you know, worry is held
Speaker 1: as a badge of honor. So so all of you know,
Speaker 1: all though those pieces, it's like this old brain meets
Speaker 1: modern society and suddenly we're off to the races with
Speaker 1: all sorts of bad habits. Yeah, I feel that completely.
Speaker 1: You talk about habits a lot in this book. Can
Speaker 1: you walk us through how a habit is form I'd
Speaker 1: be happy to the three elements that form a habit
Speaker 1: that are necessary and sufficient, are a trigger, a behavior
Speaker 1: at a reward so for and this was actually set
Speaker 1: up for our ancient ancestors to remember where food is.
Speaker 1: So the ideas you know, you see food, there's the trigger,
Speaker 1: you eat the food, there's the behavior, and then your
Speaker 1: stomach sends this dopamine signal to your brain that says,
Speaker 1: you know, remember what you ate and where you found it.
Speaker 1: From a brain perspective, we think of this as a reward.
Speaker 1: So because this dopamine sprits really helps us lay down
Speaker 1: this memory. So any habit is formed that way, and
Speaker 1: that you can think of them as being formed through
Speaker 1: positive reinforcement where let's say we eat some cake, it
Speaker 1: tastes good, and then we learned to eat more cake,
Speaker 1: especially if we associated with holidays and celebrations and things
Speaker 1: like that, but also through negative reinforcement, where it makes
Speaker 1: something that is unpleasant go away. So for example, if
Speaker 1: we if our shoes are untied for and we so
Speaker 1: there's the trigger the behaviors that we trip on our
Speaker 1: shoes are shoelaces, and then that's a negative reinforcement that says, hey,
Speaker 1: why don't you learn how to tie your shoes? And
Speaker 1: then we tie your shoes and then that removes that
Speaker 1: negative of tripping on our over our feet. Got it.
Speaker 1: So so it's not just yes, So it can be
Speaker 1: a negative award. You can be trying to avoid something
Speaker 1: which I think is I mean, I feel like a
Speaker 1: lot of my life and my anxiety has stemmed from
Speaker 1: the avoidance of something, Yes, then it is the actual
Speaker 1: uh high of of getting something, which is interesting because
Speaker 1: I know in your book you say that there's many
Speaker 1: ways that we kind of learn, and one of them
Speaker 1: is is the avoidance role, which I think I kind
Speaker 1: of lean more toward that one, which has been really interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was so fascinating to see that. I
Speaker 1: feel like we all kind of play in all of
Speaker 1: those areas of the avoidance, the kind of the one
Speaker 1: that I forgot how you actually phrase it, the one
Speaker 1: that kind of goes towards the one that avoids, and
Speaker 1: then it's kind of the fight flight er freeze right, Yes,
Speaker 1: And so I feel like I definitely, as I took
Speaker 1: the test in your book, I felt like I definitely
Speaker 1: find myself going towards each of those, but definitely the
Speaker 1: the one that was more of avoidance, the the avoidance
Speaker 1: type was the one that I find a fall into.
Speaker 1: You say that anxiety itself can be a habit. I
Speaker 1: was wondering if you could kind of go into that
Speaker 1: a little bit, because I found that very interesting and
Speaker 1: I found that that was definitely a piece that I
Speaker 1: could relate to this is actually part of the sea
Speaker 1: for the whole Unwinding Anxiety book because I never learned
Speaker 1: this in medical school and residency. I generally learned how
Speaker 1: to prescribe medications to give people for anxiety. And it
Speaker 1: was actually my own anxiety of not being able to
Speaker 1: help my patients with their anxiety that led me to
Speaker 1: go back and look at this. So basically, there's this
Speaker 1: this number needed to treat in medicine called that that
Speaker 1: gives you a rough estimate of how well of medication works,
Speaker 1: and that for anxiety it's five point one five, meaning
Speaker 1: you know, I have to treat five patients before one
Speaker 1: person shows a significant benefit. So I was playing the
Speaker 1: anxiety lottery with my patients, you know, which which one
Speaker 1: of five people is going to benefit? And that anxiety
Speaker 1: was leading me to look back and see what's you know,
Speaker 1: what can we do differently or what am I missing?
Speaker 1: And it turns out, serendipitously, my lab was studying this
Speaker 1: app called eat right Now, where we were looking at
Speaker 1: helping people change over eating habits and we've gotten pretty
Speaker 1: good results with that, and somebody said, he I'm mapping
Speaker 1: out my habit loop around eating and it goes like this,
Speaker 1: anxiety triggers me to eat, and then that eating doesn't
Speaker 1: actually fix the anxiety. So can you make an anxiety
Speaker 1: program to fix my anxiety? And this is where I
Speaker 1: went back and looked and found that there's actually a
Speaker 1: pretty good literature from the nineteen eighties that suggested that
Speaker 1: anxiety could be negatively reinforced just like any other habit.
Speaker 1: And that's where my you know, my eyes popped out
Speaker 1: of my head and I was thinking, wow, you know,
Speaker 1: this is amazing because I I know how to work
Speaker 1: with habits. So could we actually bring the work that
Speaker 1: I'm doing in my lab together and form a program
Speaker 1: for anxiety? And long story, short was, you know, we
Speaker 1: got a sixty seven percent reduction in anxiety and people
Speaker 1: with generalist anxiety disorder, and that number needed to treat
Speaker 1: was one point six as compared to five point when
Speaker 1: five with medications. And that's using mindfulness. That's using mindfulness. Yes,
Speaker 1: So that basically the way this works. So the way
Speaker 1: somebody forms a habit around anxiety is that anxiety or
Speaker 1: a negative emotion can trigger worry. So if somebody has
Speaker 1: an unpleasant sensation in their body or they have a pain,
Speaker 1: then they start to worry. Oh no, you know, could
Speaker 1: this be bad? Uh? That worry especially, So I should
Speaker 1: say if somebody has some pain, you know, like despin
Speaker 1: or something like that, they should make sure that it
Speaker 1: isn't a medical condition. But often often folks will have
Speaker 1: some you know, they'll have a pain that they've had,
Speaker 1: or they'll they'll just wake up in the morning, like
Speaker 1: my patients with anxiety, they wake up and they're anxious,
Speaker 1: and then they start worrying. Oh no, am I going
Speaker 1: to be anxious all day? Or what's what's the cause
Speaker 1: of this anxiety? That worry itself is a mental behavior
Speaker 1: that then drives anxiety more because that worry is our
Speaker 1: brains interpret this as well, at least I'm doing something,
Speaker 1: so it gives people a feeling of control. Yet surprise,
Speaker 1: it doesn't actually give us any more control than we
Speaker 1: had when we weren't worrying. And the worry makes our
Speaker 1: thinking brain go offline. It's harder to think and play
Speaker 1: and when we're worried, so that then feeds back and
Speaker 1: tries more anxiety, which then feeds forward and tries more worry,
Speaker 1: which then, you know, causes this vicious cycle. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: the worry piece for sure. I I the anxiety for
Speaker 1: me that I'm noticing is a loop. Um. And maybe
Speaker 1: some people can relate to this because I've also dealt
Speaker 1: with with depression. UM, I feel like my body is
Speaker 1: kind of gone. Uh. It either feels like it has
Speaker 1: one option or the other. It feels like it has
Speaker 1: this kind of freeze depressed mode, or it has this
Speaker 1: anxiety that it can it can utilize to drive itself
Speaker 1: out of freeze energizing. It is energizing, And I mean
Speaker 1: I think about the ways in which I utilize anxiety.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of us do sometimes for performance,
Speaker 1: like when we think about, oh, you know if I
Speaker 1: feel I mean, I did it before, I did it
Speaker 1: before our conversation. And by the way, podcasting a new
Speaker 1: thing for me and I it brings up so much
Speaker 1: anxiety for me that I was literally sitting here before
Speaker 1: doing loving Kindness meditation and it I've opened my eyes
Speaker 1: and I went, this ship works. It really does. And
Speaker 1: I've I've done loving Kindness meditation before, but not in
Speaker 1: utilizing it in the way of like when I'm anxious
Speaker 1: to like drop in and it really does work. And
Speaker 1: so I think a lot of people can relate to
Speaker 1: that performance piece two of thinking, like if I rev
Speaker 1: myself up, then I can go right into you know,
Speaker 1: whatever I need to do. There feels like there's uh
Speaker 1: kind of more of a drive per se to do
Speaker 1: a better job, Like the anxiety is going to make
Speaker 1: us perform better, which I know you've said in your
Speaker 1: book that it's completely opposite. It is, and it's something
Speaker 1: that I think is probably going to be perpetuated through
Speaker 1: the Internet for a long time, where this idea that
Speaker 1: performance is improved anxiety, even though there's no evidence to
Speaker 1: support it. Now, I think there's a piece that you're
Speaker 1: talking about here, which is an increased level of energy
Speaker 1: or arousal. Certainly, if we're asleep, we can't do a podcast,
Speaker 1: and if we're you know, and if we're overhyped, it's
Speaker 1: also challenging there. But the piece here that we can
Speaker 1: tap into is, you know, what type of energy are
Speaker 1: we talking about? So for example, with anxiety, that and
Speaker 1: that energy feels restless, you know, kind of closed down tight,
Speaker 1: whereas if somebody is in flow, you know, I think
Speaker 1: of that as optimal performance, where there they don't even
Speaker 1: know what anxiety feels like because they've basically lost a
Speaker 1: sense of self. They're so in the moment right, there's
Speaker 1: tons of energy there, yet it's a very different energy.
Speaker 1: All right, we're going to take a super quick break,
Speaker 1: but when we return, Dr jud will share just how
Speaker 1: you can tap into that more positive, more productive energy.
Speaker 1: Welcome back, my friends. We're talking with Dr Jed Brewer
Speaker 1: about better navigating anxiety. You talk a lot about contraction
Speaker 1: and expansion and that being kind of are key into
Speaker 1: what mode we're in. I guess at that moment, and uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: there's when I was doing the Loving Kindness meditation before
Speaker 1: I all of a sudden felt like my body like
Speaker 1: literally does expand. And it's hard to when you're in
Speaker 1: that mode of closed down and tight and feeling like
Speaker 1: all of this. When I talk about anxiety, I feel
Speaker 1: for me, I feel like there's this energy just kind
Speaker 1: of like running throughout my body that someone plugged me
Speaker 1: into a wall socket. When you're in that state, like
Speaker 1: we were saying earlier, sometimes it's really hard to to
Speaker 1: think or or to grab onto that new habit of
Speaker 1: loving kindness. Luckily, I've been working with your app for
Speaker 1: the past couple of weeks and these have become a
Speaker 1: daily occurrence where I'm noting, I'm doing loving kindness meditation,
Speaker 1: and it's it definitely does pull you out of it.
Speaker 1: But I think at first it's hard to it's hard
Speaker 1: to remember these things when we're in these feelings. What
Speaker 1: do you suggest when we're going through like just we're
Speaker 1: having a kind of a panic anxiety attack, what's the
Speaker 1: first thing that can start to bring us into these
Speaker 1: other options. Well, here, I would say, and I within,
Speaker 1: for example, within panic attack, it's hard to be doing
Speaker 1: anything besides panic. So the good news is there. The
Speaker 1: panic attacks actually last a very short period of time,
Speaker 1: so after, you know, after it's over, we can do
Speaker 1: we can look back on that and look at the
Speaker 1: you know, the sensations, the thoughts and whatever they went
Speaker 1: through our head and through our bodies, and we can
Speaker 1: start to see these as they are. Okay, so was
Speaker 1: a thought. You know, for example, I had panic attacks
Speaker 1: during residency training, so it would be this thought that
Speaker 1: I was going to die, I couldn't breathe, my heart
Speaker 1: was racing, and I had to actually learned to work
Speaker 1: with them in the moment. But we can even do
Speaker 1: this right afterwards, where we think, okay, my heart was
Speaker 1: racing my you know, felt like I was going to die.
Speaker 1: That was a there was a sensation, there were thoughts
Speaker 1: and whatever, and that helps us start to get the
Speaker 1: perspective where we can be aware of those things and
Speaker 1: not be identified with them, because this is key for
Speaker 1: keeping a panic attack just as a panic attack, as
Speaker 1: its momentary occurrence and not developing into full blown panic disorder,
Speaker 1: because if we start worrying that we're going to have
Speaker 1: another panic attack, then we start avoiding situations like that,
Speaker 1: or we start just getting more anxious thinking about them,
Speaker 1: and that's actually what just what makes us fall into
Speaker 1: panic disorder. Yet that part is optional. We don't really
Speaker 1: have control over having panic attacks, but how we respond
Speaker 1: to the panic attack is critical, and that's actually really
Speaker 1: the key of mindfulness for anything. It's it's not that
Speaker 1: we have worry thoughts, it's not that we have feelings
Speaker 1: of anxiety. It's that we are identified with them and
Speaker 1: get caught up in them. So we can change our
Speaker 1: relationship to our thoughts and emotions and body sensations, and
Speaker 1: by changing that relationship, we're not as caught up. We
Speaker 1: can be with with them in the moment, Oh, I
Speaker 1: just had a panic attack as compared to Oh no,
Speaker 1: I just had a panic attack and then we started
Speaker 1: panicking that we might have another one. Yeah. In the book,
Speaker 1: you have people map out their their habit loops. Can
Speaker 1: you kind of walk us through what that mapping looks like. Yes,
Speaker 1: I think of this as kind of the first of
Speaker 1: three steps in working with any type of habit. We've
Speaker 1: got to see the territory. We've got to map the
Speaker 1: territory of our own minds. And really it's just mapping
Speaker 1: the trigger, the behavior, and the results. So let's say
Speaker 1: stress eating, for example. If anxiety is the trigger my
Speaker 1: behavior stress eating, then I could start to map those
Speaker 1: out and then see what the result is. You know,
Speaker 1: do I doesn't actually fix the anxiety generally not? Does
Speaker 1: it make me feel worse? Yes, in those types of things.
Speaker 1: So the mapping process is really just anything that helps
Speaker 1: us see, you know, what's the trigger, what's the behavior,
Speaker 1: what's the result? Gotta And then you're saying there's three steps,
Speaker 1: So the second step in what are two and three? Yes,
Speaker 1: the second step flows right from the first, which is
Speaker 1: you know, and I guess a little bit of neuroscience
Speaker 1: background here to explain this is our brain is only
Speaker 1: going to change the behavior if it sees that that
Speaker 1: behavior is no longer rewarding. So uh, and if it's
Speaker 1: more rewarding than previous, then we're going to actually hold
Speaker 1: onto it. Even more so with unhealthy habits like smoking,
Speaker 1: we have to pay attention to the direct experience right
Speaker 1: in the moment when we smoke, so we can line
Speaker 1: up that cause and effect relationship between the behavior and
Speaker 1: the results. So I have my patients. I tell my
Speaker 1: patients to actually smoke when they want to come and
Speaker 1: quit smoking. They look at me like I'm crazy, and
Speaker 1: I say, no, that's actually really important. You have to
Speaker 1: see what you're getting from smoking right now. And they
Speaker 1: realize that cigarettes stays like crap right so they start
Speaker 1: to become disenchanted with it simply by paying attention as
Speaker 1: they smoke. Same is true for worrying. When somebody's worrying,
Speaker 1: I have them really pay attention. What does it feel
Speaker 1: like when you worry? Does it solve the problem? Does
Speaker 1: it keep your family safe? Does it do what you
Speaker 1: think it is doing? And when they can clearly see
Speaker 1: that it's not keeping somebody safe, it's actually making it
Speaker 1: harder for them to perform whatever that's when they start
Speaker 1: to become disenchanted with the behavior. So that's the second step,
Speaker 1: is really paying attention to the results of what you're
Speaker 1: what the behavior is, whether it's physical or mental. I
Speaker 1: can give you an example. My lab just finished to
Speaker 1: study where we embedded a tool to help people pay
Speaker 1: attention as they were over eating in this eat right
Speaker 1: now app And it only took ten or fift in
Speaker 1: times of somebody really paying attention as they overrate for
Speaker 1: that reward value to drop below zero, where they shifted
Speaker 1: that behavior from over eating to not over eating. Does
Speaker 1: that make sense? Yeah, absolutely, that's actually not that many times.
Speaker 1: It's not it's you know, and it's it makes sense
Speaker 1: because our brains are very plastic. We can't be chased
Speaker 1: by saber tooth tigers fifteen times, you know, and and
Speaker 1: hope that we get away all fifteen It's like we
Speaker 1: have to learn really quickly that those things are dangerous,
Speaker 1: and so our brains are I think they're set up
Speaker 1: to learn very quickly. But the key there is we
Speaker 1: have to pay careful attention. That's that's the key, careful
Speaker 1: attention and repetition. I know that you've mentioned smaller windows
Speaker 1: of time throughout the day, which at the beginning I'm like,
Speaker 1: I can't remember to do this, and then all of
Speaker 1: a sudden I find myself like noting, like, oh I'm
Speaker 1: hearing seeing I've probably done it like six, six or
Speaker 1: seven times this morning. And that's I think also such
Speaker 1: a key piece and something that I think we get
Speaker 1: so caught up in our busy lives that we forget
Speaker 1: that we're also you know, break trying to break a
Speaker 1: habit and and step out of our habitual behaviors. And
Speaker 1: you talk about curiosity often. I wish I wonder if
Speaker 1: you could just or expand on that more why that
Speaker 1: is so important when it comes to uh to changing
Speaker 1: a habit. Sure, so that that first step of mapping
Speaker 1: out our habit loops leads to the second step, which
Speaker 1: is helping our brains see how unrewarding the old behavior is.
Speaker 1: But that then sets up this sets the stage for
Speaker 1: the third step, which I think of as the b
Speaker 1: BO the bigger better offer. So if our brain becomes
Speaker 1: disenchanted with overeating or worrying or procrastinating or whatever, it
Speaker 1: opens the space for our brain to do something that's
Speaker 1: more rewarding, to bring in a healthy habit, and here
Speaker 1: I think one of the healthiest habits we can have
Speaker 1: is being curious. So curiosity helps us in many in
Speaker 1: multitude of ways. I think of it as a superpower.
Speaker 1: A couple of concrete ways that it becomes that bigger
Speaker 1: better offer is when we're anxious, you know, anxiety kind
Speaker 1: of closes us down, it makes us restless. Curiosity opens
Speaker 1: us up right, and so you can't be closed and
Speaker 1: open at the same time because their binary opposites. So
Speaker 1: you can kind of inject curiosity into the moment when
Speaker 1: we're curious, and we can get curious. I'm sorry, when
Speaker 1: we're anxious, when we get and when we're anxious, we
Speaker 1: can get curious about what that anxiety feels like. Oh
Speaker 1: what does this feel like? Guess coming bad to Oh no,
Speaker 1: I'm anxious again. That, oh opens us up and also
Speaker 1: feels better. The other thing it does because it helps
Speaker 1: us gain some perspective. So you can think of there's
Speaker 1: this thing called the observer effect in physics where you know,
Speaker 1: by observing, they were trying to measure the massive electrons
Speaker 1: and they would hit it with pot hit the electrons
Speaker 1: with photons, and they noticed that they were actually changing
Speaker 1: the mass the measurement by by doing that, So they
Speaker 1: called this the observer effect. By observe ring, you're going
Speaker 1: to affect the results. Well, within psychology, we can do
Speaker 1: the same thing. By observing thoughts and emotions. We can
Speaker 1: actually affect the results, and we affect them by helping
Speaker 1: to gain perspective. We get some distance between ourselves and
Speaker 1: our thoughts and our ourselves and our emotions as compared
Speaker 1: to being identified with them. And what helps us get
Speaker 1: that distance is curiosity. Oh here's the thought, Oh here's
Speaker 1: an emotion, as compared to Oh, no, I am anxious,
Speaker 1: or I am an anxious person. Interesting, we're talking about
Speaker 1: part of mindfulness. Meditation is to bring openness to the
Speaker 1: body where there once was contraction. Um which you consider
Speaker 1: the openness and the curiosity the reward. So for me
Speaker 1: and I think maybe some people can relate to this.
Speaker 1: When the feeling of anxiety feels more comfortable than being
Speaker 1: open and relaxed, how can we begin to see that
Speaker 1: openness as a reward. You know, I've done a lot
Speaker 1: of meditation and that that openness does feel like a
Speaker 1: reward in meditation, But then I step out into the
Speaker 1: real world and it becomes a lot of things trigger
Speaker 1: me to contract, and so sometimes that openness doesn't feel safe.
Speaker 1: So when when we look at when we see that
Speaker 1: openness maybe as a lack of safety or or a loss,
Speaker 1: how how do we start to tap into these feelings
Speaker 1: of openness and curiosity to where that becomes the reward.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yeah, it's a great question. So
Speaker 1: here I think of the curiosity is helping us see
Speaker 1: things clearly, helping us see without bias. So we might
Speaker 1: go out into the world and there might be something
Speaker 1: that our brain says, oh, that could be dangerous if
Speaker 1: we are basing that on things that we have learned
Speaker 1: in the past. So, for example, implicit biases. This way,
Speaker 1: we if somebody sees another person with a different skin
Speaker 1: color and they have been implicitly conditioned to think that
Speaker 1: that's a dangerous person, then their fear mechanism might kick
Speaker 1: in and they say, oh, there's danger here, and then
Speaker 1: they turn away and they actually perpetuate that bias. Right,
Speaker 1: So notice how there's no curiosity there, there's no openness.
Speaker 1: The curiosity helps us see clearly where we might be
Speaker 1: built to identify. Oh, I you know, I have this
Speaker 1: implicit bias. I'm noticing my body contracting here just because
Speaker 1: it's been conditioned this way. Can I open and ask, oh,
Speaker 1: is there actual actually danger here as compared to just
Speaker 1: something that my brain has been conditioned to do. So
Speaker 1: the openness isn't necessarily gonna it's gonna help us see clearly,
Speaker 1: help us see when something is dangerous, and help us
Speaker 1: see when something isn't dangerous as compared to just you know,
Speaker 1: utilizing our lizard brain, so to speak, where we see
Speaker 1: something and we run away immediately, and then that actually
Speaker 1: just perpetuates whatever that how it is? So that does
Speaker 1: that make sense? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely? Um, which then goes
Speaker 1: back as I'm saying that I'm like, which goes back
Speaker 1: to the feeling and the body then sometimes not leaving
Speaker 1: us access to that openness in a in a real
Speaker 1: life situation. I guess what that basically is is just
Speaker 1: us continuing to train ourselves in our own time so
Speaker 1: that we can react differently out in the world. Right.
Speaker 1: And one way we can do that is, you know,
Speaker 1: if we if we're out in the world and something,
Speaker 1: you know, triggers our fear and we run away, we
Speaker 1: can look back at that as soon thereafter as possible,
Speaker 1: because you know, we learned best from immediacy. So we
Speaker 1: look back and we say, was that actually dangerous? And
Speaker 1: so we can get curious in that moment after we've
Speaker 1: already fled the scene, so to speak, and if it
Speaker 1: was actually dangerous, then we can we can line that
Speaker 1: up and say, okay, that was dangerous. I need to
Speaker 1: do that again. We learned if we say, oh, maybe
Speaker 1: I was just conditioned to do this or that maybe
Speaker 1: it wasn't as dangerous after all, we can get curious
Speaker 1: and you know, even go back and relive it and
Speaker 1: see what was it the triggered me. We can learn
Speaker 1: something about our own minds and our own reactivity, and
Speaker 1: then in future situations we can see, you know, is
Speaker 1: this similar? Can I turn towards this? Can I be
Speaker 1: open to this? Can I get curious? Oh? Is this
Speaker 1: my mind reacting in a way that is that is
Speaker 1: habitual or conditioned, So that we can start to lean
Speaker 1: into that discomfort rather than run away. Then I'll also
Speaker 1: point out any new experience is going to be felt
Speaker 1: as a little uncomfortable to our brains and to us
Speaker 1: because our brain is saying, hey, this is different. Make
Speaker 1: sure there's no danger here, so of course we need
Speaker 1: to make sure that the scene is safe. But then
Speaker 1: we instead of kind of moving into our panic zone,
Speaker 1: we can move into our growth zone and instead of going,
Speaker 1: oh no, this is dangerous, go oh what is going
Speaker 1: on here? Is this my brain, you know, just reacting
Speaker 1: to something, And then we can lean in and we
Speaker 1: can grow and we can learn. M hm. You talk
Speaker 1: about mindset, which you just mentioned, a growth mindset compared
Speaker 1: to a fixed mindset. Can you explain what those are
Speaker 1: and why those are so important and uh in changing
Speaker 1: our habits. Yes, these terms were first coined by Carol Dwack,
Speaker 1: who's a Stanford professor, and she was doing a lot
Speaker 1: of research in the education space long story short, looking
Speaker 1: at people who felt that they only had a certain
Speaker 1: level of intelligence. For example, they didn't learn as much
Speaker 1: as people who could learn that their brains are plastic. Basically,
Speaker 1: this is even way before you know these buzzwords of
Speaker 1: neuroplasticity and other things where came around. And I love
Speaker 1: her terminology because it fits beautifully with this sense of
Speaker 1: feeling closed and open, you know, with anxiety feeling closed
Speaker 1: and curiosity feeling open. When we're closed we're in fixed mindset.
Speaker 1: You know, this is the way things are. We're not
Speaker 1: actually in a place where we can learn. When we
Speaker 1: can inject curiosity, for example, we and then move into
Speaker 1: that growth mindset and we can open to it. So,
Speaker 1: for example, if I say something nutty on a podcast,
Speaker 1: for example, just hypothetically speaking, afterwards, I could go and regret,
Speaker 1: you know, start going over in my mind what I
Speaker 1: call review and regret. I could review it, and I
Speaker 1: could regret that I said that, and then you know,
Speaker 1: I get stuck in this fixed mindset. Oh, I'm terrible
Speaker 1: on podcasts. Nobody's gonna invite me, you know, blah blah blah,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna end up in the gutter, you know.
Speaker 1: And so instead of that, I could look back and say, wow,
Speaker 1: I said something kind of nutty, and that wow, that,
Speaker 1: oh could open me where I could look and learn,
Speaker 1: and I could look at what happened. I could learn
Speaker 1: from it, and that puts me in growth mindset to say, Okay,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe don't explain it that way next time.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny. I I feel like at a
Speaker 1: certain point in life, you kind of feel like you
Speaker 1: stopped learning and you get into you know you you think, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm at a certain age. It's like my growth mindset
Speaker 1: is now a fixed mindset. It's very easy to do.
Speaker 1: I guess that was that was something that hit me
Speaker 1: in the book because I recognized how often it's so
Speaker 1: easy to slip into a fixed mindset because we have
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I'm I'm only thirty eight, but
Speaker 1: I feel like I have you know, I have a
Speaker 1: lot of I think we go into this thing and
Speaker 1: I have a lot of experience, and it becomes you
Speaker 1: start to pull from that fixed experience instead of opening
Speaker 1: yourself up to you know, God, I mean the uh,
Speaker 1: you know, multitude of possibility that exists in the universe,
Speaker 1: because that feels unsafe. You know. We feel very safe
Speaker 1: in our own little experience and this is what I
Speaker 1: know world. Um, And so that really that really hit me.
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I I am in a fixed
Speaker 1: mindset often and I haven't even recognized because for me,
Speaker 1: I like to learn, and I often think that I
Speaker 1: am in a growth mindset. I'm probably not. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: You're you're pointing out something really important. There's this tension
Speaker 1: between kind of our old and our new brains, and
Speaker 1: they're both trying to help us survive. So the you know,
Speaker 1: the old brain you find food avoid danger, is helped
Speaker 1: by the our newer parts of our brain and neo cortex,
Speaker 1: which help us think and plan. And what what are
Speaker 1: thinking and planning brains are trying to do is predict
Speaker 1: the future. And when there's uncertainty, it's harder to predict
Speaker 1: the future. So if we can kind of walk around
Speaker 1: or insulate ourselves and live more in a bubble where
Speaker 1: we only associate with certain people that say certain things,
Speaker 1: you know, it feels comfortable. If we live in a
Speaker 1: house that's safe, it feels comfortable, and so we're more
Speaker 1: likely to stay in our house as compared to adventure
Speaker 1: outside where there's you know, there's less certainty. So that
Speaker 1: survival part of the brain is saying, hey, try to
Speaker 1: make the world as predictable as possible. Yet the world
Speaker 1: is not predictable, you know, we don't have control over
Speaker 1: the world. So it's this it's this tension between at
Speaker 1: and then being able to be open to learn when
Speaker 1: things are constantly changing, and so both can help, but
Speaker 1: having that growth mindset and constantly going outside of our
Speaker 1: comfort zones to challenge ourselves but also finding the reward
Speaker 1: in that. I think you highlighted one piece of this.
Speaker 1: It feels great to learn things, right, so if we
Speaker 1: can remember, oh, it feels good to learn things. If
Speaker 1: we can remember, don't only you know, watch the news
Speaker 1: that we have, you know that we that we associate
Speaker 1: with like watch all the news and see however, you know,
Speaker 1: so we can really challenge ourselves to to be in
Speaker 1: that growth mindset and see that as a benefit as
Speaker 1: compared to just trying to wall ourselves off. You know,
Speaker 1: it might feel uncomfortable at the beginning, but as we
Speaker 1: learned to lean into uncertainty, then the joy that comes
Speaker 1: with discovery can be its own reward. Yeah. Absolutely, And
Speaker 1: there is joy and discovery. And I thank you for
Speaker 1: saying that because I really hope that people take that
Speaker 1: in because it's been something for me that, even through
Speaker 1: this podcast, to be curious. You know, people have always
Speaker 1: been curious about me. I've always been the one um
Speaker 1: being asked the questions, and it's so different to be
Speaker 1: on the other side and be the one, you know,
Speaker 1: that is curious and and it's been it's been really
Speaker 1: fun to do that. Some key pieces that you emphasize
Speaker 1: when it comes to mindfulness and when it comes to
Speaker 1: changing habits is one is non judgment and the other
Speaker 1: is kindness um which I think a lot of us
Speaker 1: struggle with, especially you have that internal dialogue of constantly
Speaker 1: beating yourself up. These are two pieces that I think
Speaker 1: are super important. I wonder if you could just kind
Speaker 1: of expand upon that and also loving kindness and how
Speaker 1: that how bringing loving kindness to these pieces of us
Speaker 1: that we are looking to shift, how that plays a role? Sure,
Speaker 1: so maybe we could even use examples of say anxiety
Speaker 1: and judgment, just to give concrete examples. So if we
Speaker 1: can map out a habit around anxiety, So for example,
Speaker 1: anxiety triggers the mental behavior worrying, and we can start
Speaker 1: to see that worrying doesn't keep our families safe, it
Speaker 1: doesn't solve the problem. We become disenchanted with it. We
Speaker 1: can then substitute curiosity for worry. So when we're anxious,
Speaker 1: we get curious, Oh, you know, what does this feel like?
Speaker 1: Where do I feel it? Most of my body? All
Speaker 1: of those things, and that can open us to our
Speaker 1: direct experience. In the same way, we can start mapping
Speaker 1: out self judgment habit loops and I write a bit
Speaker 1: about this in my book because it is so pervasive unfortunately,
Speaker 1: where for example, if we um, if we do something
Speaker 1: that we regret, we start to feel shame and then
Speaker 1: we start to so that could trigger us to judge ourselves. Oh,
Speaker 1: I can't believe I did that, and then we beat
Speaker 1: You know that beating ourselves up is doing something, just
Speaker 1: like worrying is doing something, So there could be a
Speaker 1: reward in that. Because it doesn't it can't change the past,
Speaker 1: but we can beat ourselves up for it. You know, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm doing something. We can start to turn towards that
Speaker 1: and notice that that also feels closed and contracted. Then
Speaker 1: we can bring in, you know, this third step, this
Speaker 1: bigger better offer. What feels better than judging ourselves well,
Speaker 1: being kind to ourselves, truly being kind to ourselves. So
Speaker 1: they are just simple acts of kindness. We can remember
Speaker 1: what it's like when somebody has been kind to us already.
Speaker 1: That opens us up and helps us step out of
Speaker 1: that old habit of self judgment. And this is where
Speaker 1: loving kindness comes in. Specifically, you know that it's glove
Speaker 1: and kindness is really about tapping into our inherent capacity
Speaker 1: to be kind. It's really tapping into this opening quality
Speaker 1: that comes with kindness. And you know, My Love has
Speaker 1: even done your imaging studies to look at people's brains
Speaker 1: as they practice love and kindness. Interestingly, the same brain
Speaker 1: regions that get really active when we're caught up in
Speaker 1: worry quiet down when we are practicing loving kindness. And
Speaker 1: the idea is, as you know, you can't be closed
Speaker 1: and open the same time, so loving kindness opens us
Speaker 1: up simply. You know. It's you know, we can use
Speaker 1: phrases of you know, may I be happy, may I
Speaker 1: be kind to myself, you know, things like that that
Speaker 1: can help us tap into it. But it's really that
Speaker 1: feeling of opening that comes when when we're kind to
Speaker 1: ourselves or when somebody is being kind to us. So
Speaker 1: we can even recall those moments and that opens us up,
Speaker 1: and that quiets down these brain regions that get caught
Speaker 1: up when we're judging ourselves or when we're worrying, And
Speaker 1: after we take a quick breather, it will be right
Speaker 1: back with more ways to tap into less judgment and
Speaker 1: less anxiety. Welcome back, everyone. We're diving into ways in
Speaker 1: which judgment can trigger anxiety. I find it so interesting
Speaker 1: that judgment in itself can be a habit loop, which
Speaker 1: I which then and for me it like in turn,
Speaker 1: I think I'm keeping myself safe by judging myself or
Speaker 1: my internal judge. Sometimes I feel like I have to
Speaker 1: drive myself to be able to do the things that
Speaker 1: I need to do. I found it mapping out these
Speaker 1: habit loops, by the way, which I also think could
Speaker 1: be a habit loop in itself. Constantly seeing the habit loops,
Speaker 1: it really is fascinating. And the idea of constantly having
Speaker 1: to have something external, you know, to soothe, even if
Speaker 1: it's a healthy habit, it always seems like it's it's
Speaker 1: external and not internal, and I want it to be
Speaker 1: from something I internally generate. And don't you already internally
Speaker 1: generate the judgment and everything, you know, everything else is
Speaker 1: internally generated. So we think of shifting to our internal uh,
Speaker 1: internal rewards instead of external rewards. I mean, the external
Speaker 1: is not going anywhere. Our desires and are our wants,
Speaker 1: and those things will always be there. How do you
Speaker 1: find that balance? I guess it's almost like that that
Speaker 1: phrase of like being in the world but not of
Speaker 1: it most of like you where your external reward base,
Speaker 1: because I don't think we've ever been taught that really
Speaker 1: like the internal rewards are become what drives us instead
Speaker 1: of the external. Yes, So I think there are two
Speaker 1: pieces here that we can tap into pragmatically. One is
Speaker 1: knowing that turning to something external. Our brains are set
Speaker 1: up to become habituated to things, so that basically so
Speaker 1: we can form habits and then we opens up our
Speaker 1: brains based to learn new things. So if our habit
Speaker 1: is to soothe ourselves through I'll just use an example
Speaker 1: of looking at cute pictures of puppies on Instagram for example, Right,
Speaker 1: puppies are darn cute. But if we turn to look
Speaker 1: at cute puppies when we're anxious, for example, our brain
Speaker 1: is going to get habituated to that, and then it says, Okay,
Speaker 1: I need cuter puppies. You know, I need puppies and kittens.
Speaker 1: I need puppies, kittens and babies, and it just goes
Speaker 1: on and on and on. So we become obituated and
Speaker 1: we're always grasping for more, and that grasping is just
Speaker 1: a natural habituation process because our brain is saying Okay,
Speaker 1: I've learned this, I want, you know, I need a
Speaker 1: free of space to learn something else. So just knowing
Speaker 1: that if we look externally, we're always going to be looking.
Speaker 1: We're never gonna be satisfied, just the way our brains
Speaker 1: are set up. And if we look internally, it's not
Speaker 1: just looking for, you know, to generate happy thoughts for example,
Speaker 1: because that can we can also get habituated to those things.
Speaker 1: It's really looking to see what is rewarding in the
Speaker 1: sense of helping us open, you know, because well, my
Speaker 1: lab did another study on this where we looked at
Speaker 1: a bunch of different mental states to see which ones
Speaker 1: were naturally more rewarding than others, and categorically the ones
Speaker 1: that are more rewarding are the ones that feel open.
Speaker 1: So for example, kindness, connection, curiosity, they all feel open,
Speaker 1: and they all feel better than disconnection, than anxiety, than
Speaker 1: frustration and things like that. So anything that makes us
Speaker 1: feel closed, even if it's an internal thing, is going
Speaker 1: to probably not going to be as rewarding as finding
Speaker 1: internally findable um capacities like kindness and curiosity. And because
Speaker 1: they're open, my guess is that they don't become limited
Speaker 1: in the sense of us becoming habituated to them. They
Speaker 1: just feel different, right, We we don't run out of curiosity,
Speaker 1: We don't run out of kindness. And in fact, the
Speaker 1: kinder we are, the better it feels, and the more
Speaker 1: we want to be kind the more curious we are,
Speaker 1: the better it feels, the more we want to be
Speaker 1: more curious in the future. So they actually kind of
Speaker 1: pay it forward in that sense. Mm hmm. I love
Speaker 1: that thought, paying it forward. This might be a weird question.
Speaker 1: Everything seems like it is a habit, and for me
Speaker 1: it's been a bit overwhelming to see that and to
Speaker 1: really acknowledge that. How we try to get to like
Speaker 1: the basis of something like the core issue is there
Speaker 1: when we start to see all of these different habit loops.
Speaker 1: Is there a core habit that, if discovered, can start
Speaker 1: to shift all these other little habit loops? Is that it?
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yes, there isn't one core you know,
Speaker 1: like that is the mother habit of the hive, of
Speaker 1: all the little worker be habits, so to speak. That's
Speaker 1: kind of what I was saying. So we but there
Speaker 1: is one core mother habit process that then is spun
Speaker 1: out into all the the you think of as the phenotypes,
Speaker 1: the different habits that we have. So knowing the process,
Speaker 1: you know that it trigger is gonna trigger a behavior,
Speaker 1: and that behavior is going to drive you know, have
Speaker 1: some result. And the more rewarding that result is, the
Speaker 1: more likely we are to do that. That just knowing
Speaker 1: that process, I would think of that as a's where
Speaker 1: you get at the queen bee of of the mind.
Speaker 1: And once we get there, we can start to see, Okay,
Speaker 1: this queen bee makes a bunch of worker bees. Those
Speaker 1: worker bees can be unhelpful habits like overeating and procrastinating
Speaker 1: and worrying, but it can also generate helpful habits like
Speaker 1: kindness and curiosity. So that's the that's where I would say,
Speaker 1: you know, understanding that, that's the core that we need
Speaker 1: to understand. And it's beautiful. You know, when we do
Speaker 1: studies with our unwinning anxiety app or or eat right
Speaker 1: Now app, or even our smoking app, people come to
Speaker 1: us and they say, you know, I learned about this habit,
Speaker 1: whether it's eating or smoking or anxiety, but it actually
Speaker 1: helped me learn about this and this and this and
Speaker 1: this and this habit as well. And so they kind
Speaker 1: of generalize that knowledge into wisdom. And when when I
Speaker 1: see them generate that into wisdom, then I know they've
Speaker 1: really they've really found the queen got it. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: if I think about it, for me, kind of the
Speaker 1: core of that knowing that pattern these feelings they don't
Speaker 1: feel as good, you know, like judgment and worry and
Speaker 1: and anxiety, all the all of the you know, sadness.
Speaker 1: I look at I look at those and think, basically,
Speaker 1: I've connected a habit of living in those feelings instead
Speaker 1: of living in other feelings because that's what I knew, like,
Speaker 1: that's what's felt safe. So if I think of it
Speaker 1: in that way very simplistically, um, of I'm just need
Speaker 1: to move over into these other feelings. Um, that's kind
Speaker 1: of what feels like the core of you know, of
Speaker 1: it of how I've my whole patterning has developed over
Speaker 1: the years. Yes, And the beautiful part here is that
Speaker 1: awareness will help us naturally move without us having to
Speaker 1: do anything. So really, if we are, for example, these
Speaker 1: three steps, awareness underlies all of them. If we're aware
Speaker 1: of our habit lives right and can map them out,
Speaker 1: then our brain will be able to see, oh, these
Speaker 1: are my habit looks. We don't. There's no force there,
Speaker 1: there's no effort beyond just the mapping process. If we
Speaker 1: get curious and ask ourselves what am I getting from this?
Speaker 1: In that second step where we start to become aware
Speaker 1: of the results of the behavior, again no effort, but
Speaker 1: as as we can see in our own in my
Speaker 1: own research studies, as people become aware of over eating,
Speaker 1: they stop over eating because that awareness helps them see, oh,
Speaker 1: this isn't help, this isn't doing it for me. Awareness
Speaker 1: can be that third step can be that bigger, better offer.
Speaker 1: If we think of awareness, is this curious awareness, or
Speaker 1: if we you know, we can even think of awareness
Speaker 1: is helping us see how rewarding kindness is. So all
Speaker 1: of all of these processes will naturally move us in
Speaker 1: the direction of curiosity and kindness simply by being curious ourselves.
Speaker 1: I love that because I you always think you have
Speaker 1: to do something. It's like, what do I have to do?
Speaker 1: How do I have to fix myself? And I think
Speaker 1: that's so beautiful what you just said. The awareness in
Speaker 1: itself will naturally move us in that direction. So anybody
Speaker 1: like me, we can just all calm down. We can
Speaker 1: all calm down we don't have to do as much.
Speaker 1: We can just just essay, just but we can become
Speaker 1: more aware and be, you know, in the presence of
Speaker 1: what's happening. Thank you so much for lending your wisdom
Speaker 1: here today with me. I really do appreciate it. And
Speaker 1: I have something that I ask all of my guests,
Speaker 1: because music obviously is my thing I love. I love
Speaker 1: knowing what is on your playlist. If there's five songs.
Speaker 1: We have something called the Holy Five. If there's five
Speaker 1: songs that you are digging or have or over your
Speaker 1: lifetime or your favorites. Um, and why I'd love to know. Well,
Speaker 1: you know this is an impossible question, do it, though,
Speaker 1: you can do it. I love led Zeppelin and yeah,
Speaker 1: so there's I mean everyone, they everything from their blues
Speaker 1: to their hard rock. You know. So if you just
Speaker 1: think of like Cashmir Black Dog, like those are just
Speaker 1: amazing songs. Um. Yeah, I love R E M. The
Speaker 1: End of the World as we know it is such
Speaker 1: a great song. And then there's Jeff Buckley his rendition
Speaker 1: of um, Hallelujah, that was who I'm blanking. Who's the
Speaker 1: guy with a very low voice that wrote the song? Yes,
Speaker 1: Leonard Cohen, thank you. Um so Jeff Buckley just ethereal
Speaker 1: the way he sings Hallelujah. So I love yes, Yes,
Speaker 1: I just yes. I love Radiohead. Um, you know you're
Speaker 1: a rock guy. I love it, but very eclectic rock. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well there's just so many great artists out there. So Karma,
Speaker 1: what's the Radiohead song? Karma was just about to say
Speaker 1: that that. I was like, there's no way, that's right,
Speaker 1: Karma Police again. You know, just such a different sound
Speaker 1: and brilliant. I mean that that the music is brilliant.
Speaker 1: So you know, I would I would list those five
Speaker 1: just off the you know, kind of off the top
Speaker 1: of my head, and then I could go on for
Speaker 1: hours about all the other music that I love. I
Speaker 1: love it. You love music though. Yeah. I grew up
Speaker 1: playing violin, you know, classical violin, and so I've just
Speaker 1: learned to appreciate really good music. Like I could go
Speaker 1: on and on and on. You know, like Metallica, they
Speaker 1: write great music. You know, they performed with the San
Speaker 1: Francisco Orchestra. You know, they had an album with them
Speaker 1: that was awesome. Yeah, wait, when did you when did
Speaker 1: you start playing violin? Hold for you? I think I
Speaker 1: was five. Oh wow, is it something you still do?
Speaker 1: I do. I still play quartets with folks that I
Speaker 1: played in the orchestra in college and they happened, you know,
Speaker 1: some folks that live in the area. So yeah, that's
Speaker 1: so cool. Something I did not know about you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I had a semi professional quartet in grad school that
Speaker 1: helped pay the bills because we you know, we can
Speaker 1: charge a fair amount of money for weddings and things
Speaker 1: like that. I love that. That's amazing, very cool, love it.
Speaker 1: That'd be awesome of you. Should could totally come play
Speaker 1: with me one night. It's so fun. Thank you, so
Speaker 1: thank you, Thank you so much. I really do appreciate it,
Speaker 1: and thank you for your work and your book. Um
Speaker 1: it has really it's changed my life, so I appreciate it. Well,
Speaker 1: it's so great to hear that. That is very rewarding
Speaker 1: to hear. We'll continue on and that wraps up this
Speaker 1: episode of Holy Human. Thank you all so much for
Speaker 1: spending your time with me. I truly truly appreciate you.
Speaker 1: Feel free to share your thoughts with me in the
Speaker 1: comments wherever you're listening, and if you think this episode
Speaker 1: might also benefit someone you know, please pass it along,
Speaker 1: so next time by everyone. On the next episode of
Speaker 1: Holy Human, you will meet the incredibly inspirational Larreya guest On,
Speaker 1: a woman who has chosen a life path that just
Speaker 1: might change the way that you see yours and the
Speaker 1: way you view the path others are on too. It
Speaker 1: is really really great stuff, so I hope you can
Speaker 1: join us and I can't wait to share it with you.
Speaker 1: Holy Human with Me Leanne Rhymes is a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. You'll find Holy Human with Leanne Rhymes
Speaker 1: on the I Heart app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
Speaker 1: get the podcasts that matter most to you.