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Speaker 1: Doctor, Dr Peterson, Why is it you think all of

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Speaker 1: these these um, these left wing radicals seem to fundamentally

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Speaker 1: hate the ideas that the United States? Well, you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean. It's the the story of pain, right.

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Speaker 1: You have this this jealousy, deeply uh gret jealousy in

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Speaker 1: their DNA and as they say in the film Tombstone, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know you're a You're angry at God for for

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Speaker 1: for being and I think we all feel that. But

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Speaker 1: this is just the lashing out of children who have

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Speaker 1: not been properly developed in our society. Thank you, thank you,

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Speaker 1: Dr Peterson. Oh no, he's crying. He's crying, he's crying.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, it's okay, it's okay. Jordan Balthazar Peterson. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry to be clear that was I was coming from

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Speaker 1: a photograph from Sworts Illustrated. Oh that's good, I do

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Speaker 1: find beautiful one from the nineteen seventies when properly Yes,

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Speaker 1: so I've been looking at my copy of Maps of

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Speaker 1: Meaning and yeah, terrible book. I apologized. Well, that's all

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Speaker 1: the time, Dr Peterson. As for us today, I'm Robert Evans.

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Speaker 1: Let's go to the second portion of Behind the Bastards,

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Speaker 1: where I introduced my co hosts, Katie Stole Cody Johnston. Hello. Hello, look,

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Speaker 1: you'll you'll always be my co host even though our

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Speaker 1: our other show is paused while we wait for the

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Speaker 1: litigation to finish. Oh god, yeah, yeah any day. I

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Speaker 1: mean they deposed us all this week. So yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: looking good. Um, it's good to have you back on.

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Speaker 1: Good to be doing this again. And I thought, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna have some of my best friends, We're all going

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Speaker 1: to sit down and talk. What better thing to chat

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Speaker 1: about then a massive decades long sexual abuse scandal within

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Speaker 1: America's largest Protestant denominations. So low that good stuff. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So today our bastard is the Southern Baptist Convention. Um,

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Speaker 1: what do you guys know about the the SBC? So

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Speaker 1: that is that phrase true? All all cops are Baptists? Yes,

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Speaker 1: that is that is? I mean, actually broadly speaking, yes, yeah,

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Speaker 1: generalize some of them are Pentecostals and those are the

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Speaker 1: real scary ones. I don't know much. I don't know much.

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Speaker 1: I am the perfect canvas for this story. I wish

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Speaker 1: all cops were Anabaptists, because the Anta Baptists were actually

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Speaker 1: pretty dope but that's a story for an the day

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Speaker 1: also gotten massacred in a castle. But anyway, um so,

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Speaker 1: but anyway, but anyway, Yeah, the Southern Baptist the Southern

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Speaker 1: Baptist Convention, we'll talk about what that means, but like

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Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist Convention is like the thing that organizes

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Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist denomination. Essentially, Southern Baptists are the largest

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Speaker 1: Protestant denomination in the United States today. There's around fourteen

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Speaker 1: million of them, um, and there's like forty six or

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Speaker 1: forty seven thousand uh S SBC affiliated churches in the

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Speaker 1: United States. So real big, um and very very conservative.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people will argue that, like the Southern

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Speaker 1: Baptists are kind of the heart of the conservative movement

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Speaker 1: in the United States in a lot of ways. Um.

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Speaker 1: And at the moment as we speak, like literally the

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Speaker 1: week that we're recording this, um, a bunch of fucked

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Speaker 1: well okay, the literal week that we're recording this, they

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Speaker 1: had their annual Southern Baptist Convention where they vote on

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Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff, including like the dude who's going

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Speaker 1: to be we'll call him the President of the Southern

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Speaker 1: Baptists and um uh, they vote on resolutions and stuff.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk about that at the end and part two

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Speaker 1: a little bit more how that went. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: the thing that was kind of one of the top

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Speaker 1: stories about the Southern Baptists is both this kind of

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Speaker 1: war between it's really not between left and right, it's

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Speaker 1: between like normal conservatives and absolute fascist maniacs, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, that classic tale. Yeah, that classic tale of

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Speaker 1: like people who don't like taxes and people who want

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Speaker 1: to do a genocide. Yes, so that clash has been

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Speaker 1: this has been actually going on for years. But the

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Speaker 1: thing that has kind of um uh sent a curveball

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Speaker 1: in it is starting like a year or so ago,

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Speaker 1: two years ago something like that, the a series of

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Speaker 1: articles started being published, um by the Houston Chronicle, um

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Speaker 1: about a massive sexual abuse scandal within the SPCs. We're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about that a lot. That's what we're all

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be going into today. But but I'm before

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Speaker 1: we get into that, we need to do some history,

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Speaker 1: right because while over the course of my lifetime and

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Speaker 1: y'all's lifetimes, the Southern Baptists have been a huge force

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Speaker 1: for rigid, regressive, often vicious conservatism, they didn't start that

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Speaker 1: way the very first Yeah, it is kind of weird

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Speaker 1: how different Um this actually gets kicked off though, is

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Speaker 1: um from where they are now? So the very first

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Speaker 1: Baptist church was found in sixteen o nine in Amsterdam

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Speaker 1: by an English dissenter named John smythe um now John

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Speaker 1: and his fellows again, what are the center is? These

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Speaker 1: are folks like you know, you got that Church of

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Speaker 1: England thing right, because you get that king and there's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, wants to fun. There's other stuff than the

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Speaker 1: fucking people. He wanted to fund. He wanted to funk

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Speaker 1: like he wanted to he wanted marriages anyway, whatever you

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Speaker 1: want to do ship you couldn't do as a Catholic.

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Speaker 1: There's other stuff going people always get well, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: just about that. This was going on too, and this

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Speaker 1: was going on to and fuck you in your English history.

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Speaker 1: I don't care. Um. Anyway, you have these, you have

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Speaker 1: this Church of England get established, breaks away Catholic Catholicism

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Speaker 1: is illegal, all that good stuff, and then you have

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Speaker 1: these like dissenters who are not Catholic but also are

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Speaker 1: not don't want to don't like the idea of the

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Speaker 1: Church of England and John Smith particularly and his followers

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Speaker 1: in Amsterdam. The thing they don't like is the idea

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Speaker 1: of the religion being affiliated with the state government. They

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Speaker 1: don't want a state religion. They think there should be

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Speaker 1: separation between church and state, right and there. Yeah, there's

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Speaker 1: less about like yes, and again this is not because

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Speaker 1: of like, this is less about personal liberty, I think

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Speaker 1: in their hearts than it is about like the state

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Speaker 1: will fundamentally corrupt the faith. Um. Yeah, which it's it's

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Speaker 1: it sure does seem to Yeah. Yeah, might have been

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Speaker 1: right on the money there, John. Um. Now there's a

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Speaker 1: there's some other stuff going on here, including the fact

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Speaker 1: that John and his fellow early Baptists rejected the baptism

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Speaker 1: of infants. Um, like the Anabaptists. I think you might

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Speaker 1: be able to tell where the name Baptists comes from

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Speaker 1: by the fact that earlier in history there was a

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Speaker 1: group called the Anna Baptists. Um. They don't believe babies

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Speaker 1: should be baptized. Only adults can be baptized because like

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Speaker 1: a baby can't choose to be Christian, Like an infant

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Speaker 1: cannot accept Jesus Christ because it's a baby. Ah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that tracks that tracks to me. Now, an awful lot

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Speaker 1: of people get murdered over this, Like, it is astounding

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Speaker 1: how many human beings are killed because some folks are like,

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Speaker 1: what if only adults who could consent God baptized. That

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Speaker 1: is a big, big thing, so let's kill each other.

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Speaker 1: I love how the so much death comes from the

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Speaker 1: holiness of God, and in this case we should devote

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Speaker 1: to him. This is just like and this is again

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Speaker 1: so you see fundamentally, the one of the big splits

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Speaker 1: between other Protestant denominations and the Baptists is the Baptists

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Speaker 1: are really focused on personal liberty and autonomy, right the

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Speaker 1: idea that you can't get baptized until you can fully choose,

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Speaker 1: can make an informed choice as to whether or not

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Speaker 1: to to be a Christian um, which I think is

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Speaker 1: broadly speaking better than dunking babies in the water. But

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Speaker 1: I also don't think baptism babies has any particular effect

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Speaker 1: on them because their babies, they don't remember ship. Um,

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Speaker 1: you could do whatever like if they if they die

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Speaker 1: without being baptized, they go to hell. Um. I'm actually

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Speaker 1: not a Christian, but I do believe that just you know,

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Speaker 1: the one that broke evil hell is just for babies, yeah,

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Speaker 1: special for babies. Baby hell where it's like you have

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Speaker 1: to you have to I don't know what would baby

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Speaker 1: he'll be. I guess like like I mean, just like

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Speaker 1: just a room full of babies without adults, right, Yeah, Honestly,

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Speaker 1: I have to say that I think being a baby

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Speaker 1: probably is hell, and you can't you don't ever know

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Speaker 1: what's happening. But then you get the things that you

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Speaker 1: need and comfort from all you got to do. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know who giant people coming at me really

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Speaker 1: close with their giant phases. I think being a baby

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Speaker 1: is probably an incredibly traumatic experience. It does seem to difficult,

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Speaker 1: having having known a couple of babies, it seems way

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Speaker 1: harder than what I do not envy you man. And

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Speaker 1: then at one it starts being good because you can

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Speaker 1: talk like yeah, then you can start to funk around

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Speaker 1: with people, you know, yeah. Yeah. So in the decades

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Speaker 1: that follow John Smith in the establishment of his church,

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Speaker 1: the Baptist faith grows, and it actually has a split

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Speaker 1: very early on between a chunk of Baptists who feel

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Speaker 1: like um is that it's like murder of crows. Chunk

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Speaker 1: of Baptists chunk of Baptists. Yeah, um, so half of

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Speaker 1: them are like, I don't know if it's exactly half,

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Speaker 1: but one a big chunk are like, anyone can be saved.

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Speaker 1: Jesus Christ died for everybody, right, all you have to

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Speaker 1: do you have to accept Christ as your Lord and

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Speaker 1: savior and nothing you're saved but a bang bada boom,

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Speaker 1: and then there's a chunk. They're like, no, God picked

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Speaker 1: a small number of people all throughout history. I think

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Speaker 1: it's like a hundred and sixty thousand to be elect

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Speaker 1: to go to Heaven and everyone else goes to Hell,

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Speaker 1: which is a thing that only lunatics believe, but it's

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Speaker 1: very popular in this period. So as a general rule,

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Speaker 1: Baptists were the anti authoritarian strain of Christianity in this period.

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Speaker 1: They believed in the separation of church and state. They

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Speaker 1: believed in freedom of conscious conscience, and they believed in

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Speaker 1: the value of individual life experience in preaching. And this

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Speaker 1: is a big This starts like because the Catholic Church

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Speaker 1: in this period you don't insert your opinions into talking

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Speaker 1: about the Bible. You read the Bible right, and you

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Speaker 1: do the liturgy, and you have this like Creed that

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Speaker 1: you read and it has all been laid down, and

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Speaker 1: other people like, your job is to go read the

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Speaker 1: same thing every Catholic. Here's right. Your job is not

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Speaker 1: to extempor anialize from the fucking pulpit, you know. Um.

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Speaker 1: And now that you've got these Protestant denominations and they

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Speaker 1: have some different there's Protestants who are like, no, because

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Speaker 1: the Bible is an errant, you preach just the Bible. Um.

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Speaker 1: Baptists are like, well, no, your God made you as

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Speaker 1: a unique person and your experiences and beliefs about faith

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Speaker 1: are a part of like what God has given you,

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Speaker 1: So you should share your personal experience with faith with

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Speaker 1: other people. Right. This scares the ship out of Anglican

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Speaker 1: and Calvinist leaders. They do not like this. And the

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Speaker 1: main reason why is that the Baptists really extend this

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Speaker 1: attitude that like, well, God made us all the way

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Speaker 1: we are, with the capacity to make choices and experience things,

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Speaker 1: and He wants us to share that with each other.

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Speaker 1: So clearly women should be allowed to speak in church.

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Speaker 1: This is a big problem for people. So you've got

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Speaker 1: you've got I don't know if they're quite past Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're not quite pastors, I don't think, but you have

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Speaker 1: women preaching the word of God in Baptist churches and

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Speaker 1: that is a real like folks get very honree about that,

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Speaker 1: um and spoilers. They still are today. So through the

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Speaker 1: seventeen hundreds, Baptists were attacked out of the fear that

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Speaker 1: their beliefs would overthrow male leadership, not just in the

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Speaker 1: church but in government right. And they believe that like

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Speaker 1: men had been put above women, this is part of

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Speaker 1: God's design. There will be chaos and and and violence

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Speaker 1: and horror if women you surf this. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jordan B. Peterson would absolutely have been like, like if

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Speaker 1: he's in the seventeen he's never not talking about Baptists,

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Speaker 1: like that's every hour of his life and still still

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Speaker 1: claiming that patriarchy doesn't exist and has never existed and

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Speaker 1: it's made up. But also some hierarchies are ingrained with

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Speaker 1: human soul and older, older than treats Peterson. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: so I want to quote right now from a very

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Speaker 1: enlightening write up in Religion Dispatches by Diana Bass quote.

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Speaker 1: The Baptist commitment to liberty also shaped a revolution among

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Speaker 1: Christian women empowering them to exercise their spiritual gifts take

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Speaker 1: up leadership in the emerging religious movement. Indeed, one of

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Speaker 1: the first attacks leveled at Baptists in England was that

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Speaker 1: they scandalously allowed for she preachers, including teachers that's right,

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Speaker 1: including waiting for you get together, including one Mrs Ataway,

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Speaker 1: who's Tuesday afternoon Bible lectures in attracted as many as

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Speaker 1: a thousand eager listeners. Baptist women were among the greatest

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Speaker 1: radicals of a revolutionary century, and they preached a gospel

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Speaker 1: of visionary egalitarianism based in biblical injections like your daughters

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Speaker 1: will prophecy and there is no longer male and female

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Speaker 1: in Christ Jesus. So there's some radical ship going on

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Speaker 1: in the Baptist this ship. I love. That's pretty cool

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Speaker 1: radical way back when I mean that, does it so Baptist? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: o g Baptist fucking revolutionaries in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: like let you you open the adore for women and

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Speaker 1: look what they do for you. We are abolishing gender

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Speaker 1: sixteenth or seventeenth century Baptists. Yeah, now they're abolishing whatever.

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Speaker 1: Yeah it's whatever. Um. So conservatives at the time struck

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Speaker 1: back against progress as is why they exist. Um, and

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Speaker 1: they accused Baptists suffomenting revolution and chaos. One pamphlet from

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Speaker 1: the mid sixteen hundreds warrant that female Baptists quote, Oh

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Speaker 1: you're gonna like this, katie. Female Baptists of quote lately

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Speaker 1: advanced themselves with vainglorious arrogance to preach in mixed congregations

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Speaker 1: of men and women in an insolent way, so usurping

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Speaker 1: authority over men and assuming a calling unwarranted by the

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Speaker 1: Word of God for women to use. Yet all under

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Speaker 1: the color that they all as the Spirit moves them,

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Speaker 1: wherein they highly wrong and abuse the motions of the

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Speaker 1: blessed Spirit to make him to be the author of

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Speaker 1: such of so much schism, disorder and confusion, they being

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Speaker 1: rather led by a strong delusions of the Prince of

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Speaker 1: darkness to countenance there in ignorance, pride, and vain glory. Baby,

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Speaker 1: that's what we call words salad. You piss better than you,

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Speaker 1: better at preaching than you, Jordan Peterson. Um. So, Baptist

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Speaker 1: radicals were met with weaponized Bible quotes about how women

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Speaker 1: need to, you know, stay quiet and submit to their

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Speaker 1: husbands and all that good stuff in England, a whole

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Speaker 1: lot of Baptists gets get jailed for doing Baptist stuff. Um.

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Speaker 1: And when they refuse to stop anyway, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: things get any This is part of why a lot

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Speaker 1: of Baptists wind up in North America. Right. There are

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Speaker 1: crackdowns across Europe of Baptist communities and they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: let's go colonize a place. Um. Now, this is where

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Speaker 1: things start to go wrong because number one, they're now

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Speaker 1: becoming kind of implicit in the genocide or the series

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Speaker 1: of genocides that are about to follow. Um. But also

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Speaker 1: because it's North America in the six hundreds, they're gonna

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Speaker 1: start to become complicit in slavery. This is where things

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Speaker 1: go awry. Pretty good for a while though for a while.

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Speaker 1: End the episode where we were had a good thirty years.

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Speaker 1: That's like, yeah, not even someone's lifetime generation. Yeah that's

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Speaker 1: not bad. I mean good for the time. It's it's

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Speaker 1: longer than we have left in as a United States.

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Speaker 1: So I mean it's disappointing. Yeah, it is disappointing. Um,

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Speaker 1: it is this is there although it ends, this is

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Speaker 1: this is a story that's gonna end on a kind

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Speaker 1: of hopeful. Note, Um, so that's good. This won't be

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Speaker 1: as sad as a lot of things end, although boy howdy,

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a rough road to get there.

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Speaker 1: So in the Old Country, right, Baptists had lived in

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Speaker 1: a slave state as well, the British Empire, most of

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Speaker 1: the countries in Europe. Slavery is if it's not within

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Speaker 1: the country itself, the country's economy is heavily reliant upon slavery,

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Speaker 1: and like colonies and stuff. Right, So obviously Baptists and

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Speaker 1: you know, but but personal ownership of slaves was not

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Speaker 1: really much of a thing to the nearly to the

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Speaker 1: extent that it became in like the US South, and

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Speaker 1: Baptists were radicals. They did not tend to have a

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Speaker 1: lot of money, so you didn't have before they kind

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Speaker 1: of came to the US. I don't think they were

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Speaker 1: really Baptist slave owners, certainly, not as any kind of

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Speaker 1: organized group. Right, Maybe there were some individuals who did.

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Speaker 1: But in the United States, Baptists, because so many of

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Speaker 1: them come over in very short order, they are the

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Speaker 1: largest Protestant sect in the new you know, the first

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Speaker 1: than the colonies and then eventually in the new United States.

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Speaker 1: And because there's a lot of them. And because you know,

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Speaker 1: when you travel to a country that's in the state

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Speaker 1: of being born and that is appropriating and stealing a

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Speaker 1: great leod Land, a lot of them wind up being

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Speaker 1: rich and they get wealth and they get power, and

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Speaker 1: they get slaves and they stop being quite so cool

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Speaker 1: and radical. Um. So the first Baptist had been big.

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Speaker 1: One of the foundational things about being a Baptist is

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Speaker 1: that they are a non hierarchical religion um, which means

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Speaker 1: that they abided by no state interference in their worship,

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Speaker 1: unlike the Anglican Church. And they also have no bishops

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Speaker 1: or popes. Their radicals have actually extended beyond that. Baptists

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Speaker 1: had no unified creed, so like the Nicene Creed or

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Speaker 1: whatever like that. They don't have anything like that. There's

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Speaker 1: no liturgy, there's nothing that if you are a Baptist,

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Speaker 1: every Baptist like reads this thing, and like every Baptist

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Speaker 1: goes straight other than like the Bible. But again there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of freedom and like how it's preached and

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Speaker 1: like whatnot. So the Baptists in the United States very

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Speaker 1: quickly start to split along kind of the same lines

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Speaker 1: as the rest of the New Country splits. Northern Baptists

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Speaker 1: continue to hear to this anti hierarchy intellectual tradition, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of them do become Abolitionists. A lot of

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Speaker 1: Northern Baptist Baptists are part of the abolition movement. But

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Speaker 1: in the South, Baptist who had accumulated wealth and power

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Speaker 1: and slaves start to see things very differently. Now they

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Speaker 1: still reject choice hierarchy, and they claim to not have

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Speaker 1: a creed, but a growing number of them start to

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Speaker 1: argue that slavery is not just acceptable, but is divinely

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Speaker 1: inspired the actual will of God. Doctor Richard Ferman, who

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Speaker 1: is an early Southern Baptist leader, wrote in a letter

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Speaker 1: to the governor of South Carolina, quote, the right of

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Speaker 1: holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both

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Speaker 1: by precept and example. Now this causes a rift, because

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Speaker 1: by the eighteen hundreds, the you know, mid forties, slavery.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys know this kind of

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Speaker 1: a contentious issue in the United States. Yeah, yeah, a

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Speaker 1: lot of people disagree. Did they smooth it out about it?

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Speaker 1: Was there some sort of fight. There's a people call

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Speaker 1: it the Big Disagreement that everything was fine. After that,

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Speaker 1: everything was fine after the Civil Debate, the Civil Debate,

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Speaker 1: and then everything was good. Um, that's what we had.

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Speaker 1: So it happens. Obviously, the Civil War starts in eighteen

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Speaker 1: sixty in the United States, it happens a bit earlier

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Speaker 1: for the Baptist in eighteen forty five. There is a

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Speaker 1: fundamental rift within the Baptist faith over the question of

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Speaker 1: whether or not slaveholders can be missionaries. That's what kind

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Speaker 1: of Again, There's been a bunch of arguments and debates,

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Speaker 1: but like, fundamentally this issue is kind of like winds

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Speaker 1: up being the thing that that sets the kettle of boiling,

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Speaker 1: Like can slaveholders go out and preach the gospel? Can

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Speaker 1: you can you go out and win souls for Christ

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Speaker 1: while owning human beings? Right, It's a good question. That's

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Speaker 1: a good question question, but also easy question. The Northern

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Speaker 1: Baptist would say, very easy question. No, Um, But the

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Speaker 1: Southern Baptists say yes. And the Baptist faith splits, and

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Speaker 1: the very first Southern Baptist Convention takes place in Augusta,

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Speaker 1: Georgia in May of eighteen forty five. And I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: quote from a write up in patheos is Daylight Atheism

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Speaker 1: blog quote largely comprised of slavehole orders, the gathering endorsed

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Speaker 1: the peculiar institution slavery was biblical abolition. Sinful Baptists of

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Speaker 1: the North were wrong to appropose slavery abolitionists for responsibility

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Speaker 1: for the Baptist division. Baptists of the South had been

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Speaker 1: patient with the agitators, but enough was enough, right, We've

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Speaker 1: it's just again tales all this time. We've been very patient,

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Speaker 1: We've been very civil with us needing the slaves um.

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Speaker 1: But you you people need to calm down. That's such

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Speaker 1: a It's amazing how the same thing is happens forever

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Speaker 1: the time might be some sort of flat circle. Um.

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Speaker 1: So of her that Reggie lid Dow I did have

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Speaker 1: I did an event in Austin recently, and I had

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Speaker 1: a lunch in a couple of loan Stars there, and

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Speaker 1: I considered I should have done it. I regret not

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Speaker 1: doing it. I should have bought a six pack alone.

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Speaker 1: Start to walk into my book signing, y like counted

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Speaker 1: six loan stars while like thing about nihilism. Already take

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Speaker 1: out your naive and start carving the empty Yeah, yeah, Robert,

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Speaker 1: I see that in your future. I want that. I

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Speaker 1: want that next time. I mean, what man doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to grow up to be rust Cole like honestly beautiful man.

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Speaker 1: Harrison's character's name goddam right, you're Woody Harrelson's character nobody. Yeah, anyway, whatever,

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Speaker 1: great great season of television. Never watched the show again

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Speaker 1: after that, Dard Harrison had been a good Yeah, not

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Speaker 1: worth after that? We do we needed an ad break.

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Speaker 1: It's not yeah, you know who we Reggie do we?

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Speaker 1: Reggie Lie do Cody? You fucking Reggie did it? So

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Speaker 1: go go go watch the first season A True Detective

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Speaker 1: again and also listen to these acts under the same

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Speaker 1: leg Oh we're back, um boy, that was pretty good show,

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Speaker 1: True Detective it yeah. Um. So the Southern Baptist Faith

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Speaker 1: grows rapidly after, and you know it's got there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of slave money behind it, which allows them to

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Speaker 1: do things like set up a shipload of schools and

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Speaker 1: build a really really powerful publishing arm to start pushing

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Speaker 1: out newspapers and magazines all over the primarily the South.

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Speaker 1: Now the faith is is decentralized on paper again. There's

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Speaker 1: no central church, there's no pope. But you will start

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Speaker 1: to have these very wealthy institutions arrived that are putting

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Speaker 1: out content for schools, that are putting out like stuff,

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Speaker 1: you know, training pastors and whatnot. Um. And as a result, things,

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Speaker 1: even though the Baptists, Southern Baptist say that it's decentralized,

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Speaker 1: things get very fucking centralized, right. Um. You start to

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Speaker 1: congregate a lot of power in these institutions that are

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Speaker 1: influential for the Southern Baptists. Um. And of course, because

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Speaker 1: the men who are funding them and running them are

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Speaker 1: slave holders, supporting slavery becomes a religious creed for the

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Speaker 1: Southern Baptists. In eighteen fifty one, Baptist news editor wrote, quote,

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Speaker 1: as a question of morals, it is between us and God.

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Speaker 1: As a question of political economy, it is with us

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Speaker 1: alone as free and independent states. Interesting that word? What

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Speaker 1: that word? What that first word you said? And what? Yeah? States? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's cool. Six. A prominent Alabama Baptist leader label slavery

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Speaker 1: quote as much an institution of heaven as marriage, basically saying,

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Speaker 1: of course there will be slaves in heaven. It wouldn't

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Speaker 1: be heaven if I didn't known people. How can I

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Speaker 1: be happy without my property, tying slavery to marriage. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it is. It is interesting. Interesting make my stomach churn

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Speaker 1: every time I think about how recent all this ship is,

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Speaker 1: Like it's not all that far ago. Actually fifty mother

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Speaker 1: fucking yeah, this is like a hundred years before Martin

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Speaker 1: Luther King is marching around. You know. It's like not

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Speaker 1: that distant from my parents lifetime. Like, I mean not,

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Speaker 1: are our grandparents knew people who'd been alive at this period, Absolutely, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: or at least could have. So. The Southern Baptist Theological

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Speaker 1: Seminary is founded in eighteen fifty nine in Louisville, Kentucky,

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Speaker 1: and it provides the Southern Baptist with a place to

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Speaker 1: train their clergy. Again, part of the thing with Baptist

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Speaker 1: is that there's supposed to be no centralized control over clergy.

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Speaker 1: People are not Like it's not like, you know, if

425
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:36,600
Speaker 1: you like being a Catholic priest, it's like a whole

426
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:38,960
Speaker 1: fucking deal, right, Like you gotta like it's like becoming

427
00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,880
Speaker 1: a mechanic or something. Um, you can just get declared

428
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,560
Speaker 1: ade like if your congregation says, hey we like this guy,

429
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,720
Speaker 1: he's the pastor you're the pastor right, But now they

430
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 1: also have a seminary um that is training people to

431
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: be pastors, which is very centralized. Oh and by the way,

432
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:57,399
Speaker 1: the four guys who own the seminary owned fifty slaves

433
00:25:57,440 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: in between them. Um. So when Abraham Lincoln was elected, No,

434
00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: it's fine, it's good times. It's good times. So Abraham

435
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,359
Speaker 1: Lincoln gets elected, and the very normal dudes at the

436
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:13,159
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist Theological Seminary reacted as you had expect by

437
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: immediately arguing for secession. Now, some Baptist leaders had been

438
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: arguing for secession in the early eighteen fifties, and the

439
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist faith overwhelmingly supported the Confederacy in the Civil

440
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: War that followed, which should not be a surprise. And

441
00:26:27,040 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: in eighteen sixty three meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention

442
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 1: SPTS founder John brought us, seen by some as almost

443
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 1: the founding father of like, the Southern Baptist Convention wrote

444
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 1: and submitted resolutions pledging Southern Baptist support for the Confederacy. Now, Cody,

445
00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 1: I know you're just like on page one oh five

446
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: of your U S History textbook from middle school, but

447
00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: I'm gonna spoil something for you. Civil war doesn't go

448
00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 1: great for the Confederacy. Yeah, I know, and I'm sorry,

449
00:26:56,080 --> 00:27:00,040
Speaker 1: I know you were just getting there, right, But the

450
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,720
Speaker 1: flags are still around. It seems like there was successful

451
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: I I see why that's confusing, Cody. Um, but workout victory.

452
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:18,359
Speaker 1: They they're celebrating a victory. Um. We're actually kind of

453
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 1: getting to some of that. So. Yeah, so the South

454
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: South loses the war, and kind of as a result

455
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: of the South losing the war and a number of

456
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: things that happened with it, there are rather fewer living

457
00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist men in eighteen sixty five than there had

458
00:27:31,040 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 1: been in eighteen sixty Um. Now, emancipation and the end

459
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 1: of the war leads eventually to something that kind of

460
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 1: starts to approach equal rights for black people. Right. Um.

461
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:44,240
Speaker 1: And obviously this is not an even you know, you've

462
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: got your reconstruction period where things are looking good, You've

463
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: got this horrible crackdown. You've got the establishment of Jim

464
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: Crow laws and the SPTS, the Sudden Baptist Theological Seminary Um,

465
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:58,480
Speaker 1: and thus the leadership of the faith are hugely in

466
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 1: favor of Jim Crow and in finding ways to reduce

467
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 1: and eliminate any kind of legal equality that black people

468
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: might have. Um, the people who are kind of running

469
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,439
Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist Convention oppose equality and support the separation

470
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: of white and black people. Professor William Wilson assured his

471
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: students whites will rule in the South still. Now, some

472
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist leaders, like brought Us did evolve their views

473
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: as time went on. Brought Us eventually came around as

474
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: believing slavery was wrong in eighteen eighty two. I don't

475
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: give him a lot of points for that. Like you'll

476
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: see defenders of Southern Baptist leaders being like, well, look, no,

477
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 1: brought Us realized that it was wrong. It's like yeah

478
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: in the eighteen eighties. Look, man, if you're like raised

479
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: in the slave holding South and in like eighteen fifty

480
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: or like, you know what this is wrong? Funcket, I'm

481
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: an abolitionist. Now you get a lot of points. It's

482
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: hard to evolve beyond the things that your culture considers

483
00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 1: fine when they're immoral. That's a that's that takes courage.

484
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 1: Eighteen eighty two, I don't really care came around you know,

485
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 1: radical anymore, Like yeah, like yeah, yeah, that's not really

486
00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:07,280
Speaker 1: like good, I guess, but okay, um, But he also

487
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 1: argues against those in the faith. What he does do

488
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:12,800
Speaker 1: is he argues against Southern Baptist once the war is

489
00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:15,720
Speaker 1: over and they've lost, he does argue against people within

490
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: his his religion who think that black worship is less

491
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,959
Speaker 1: acceptable to God than white worship. Um. And as a result,

492
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: there's start to be a few Black Southern Baptist churches.

493
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 1: Now this is a more significant chunk of the faith.

494
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,120
Speaker 1: Now it's still not most. I think it's like seven

495
00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 1: percent of of SPC churches are a majority black, um,

496
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 1: But black Southern Baptists do grow to be a more

497
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: significant chunk of the faith throughout the early nineteen forties

498
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: and particularly in the modern period. Uh An actually kind

499
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: of disproportionate chunk of pastors are black. Um. But yeah,

500
00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist Black Southern Baptists do become more of

501
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,719
Speaker 1: a factor in in the faith, even as kind of

502
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,680
Speaker 1: leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention take advantage of this

503
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: racist system that they've built in the post war South.

504
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: And for more information on that, I want to quote

505
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: from an investigation published by the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Um. Yeah,

506
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: that's actually kind of a spoiler for where some of

507
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: the sins. But this is the same institution that we

508
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: were just reading a bunch of arguments for why God

509
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: loves slavery. Quote. Josephie Brown, the Seminary's most important donor

510
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: and chairman of its board of trustees eighteen eighty to

511
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: eighteen ninety four, earned much of his fortune by the

512
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: exploitation of mostly black convict lease laborers. Josephy Brown's coal

513
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: mines and iron furnaces coerced the full extent of labor

514
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: from Georgia convicts by employing the same brutal punishments and

515
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: tortures formerly employed by slave drivers. The legal system and

516
00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 1: trapped thousands of black men, often on trumped up charges

517
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 1: and without any due process protections, and earned money for

518
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 1: sheriffs and state treasuries by selling their labor. It was

519
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: worse than slavery. Investigations of Brown's Dade coal operation concluded

520
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: that if there is a hell on Earth, it is

521
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 1: the Dade coal mines. Brown reaped enormous profits from his

522
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 1: coal and iron businesses. His eighteen eighty gift of fifty

523
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,720
Speaker 1: dollars was instrumental in saving the seminary from financial collapse.

524
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: At his death, the seminary honored him for his service

525
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 1: as a trustee and for the generous financial support he

526
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 1: had provided. Okay, yep, pretty bad that guy. Pretty bad stuff. Um. So,

527
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 1: as you might guess, though, the SPTS recently has done

528
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: some broadly admirable things in terms of grappling with its legacy.

529
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: But of course, even in these again broadly admiral, because

530
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: there's some really good work they've done on kind of

531
00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 1: the funked up parts of their history, they also still

532
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 1: toss some bullshit up in there. Um. For example, again,

533
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: most of these Southern Baptist sources you'll find grappling with

534
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: their legacy will note that guys like Broadest came around

535
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: and that other theological leaders, specifically William J. McLaughlin, loudly

536
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 1: repudiated the children of Ham stuff, which is, do you

537
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: guys know anything about that. There's also a thing in

538
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 1: the Mormon Church there's this idea cam Yeah, there's like

539
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: some ship in the Bible about these like children these cities.

540
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: You know how there's all these cities God gets mad

541
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: at in the Old Testament for like stuff Okay, so

542
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: at Ham's a city. Yeah, yeah, the Mormon Church will

543
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 1: be preaching that kind of ship up until like when

544
00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: we were little kids, you know. Um so, but some

545
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:18,720
Speaker 1: guys in this period and this kind of like late

546
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: end of the eight hundreds, very early in nineteen hundreds,

547
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: there are some Southern Baptist leaders who are like repudiating that.

548
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: Um but, and this is good, it's important in your

549
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: analyzes of racism to mention stuff like that. But then

550
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 1: after doing some really good research you get lines like

551
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: this quote. Several faculty and trustees lamented the prevalence of

552
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 1: lynching in the South, which is like, why why would

553
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: you even include like the fact that someone like, yeah,

554
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: lynching seems fucked up. It's not let's not point as

555
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: our property values is like such a weird word for that,

556
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: it's weird, Like maybe just don't even include that. Right.

557
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: If somebody did something to try to stop lynching, sure

558
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: of course that's a part of your history too. They

559
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: felt they felt about it. But also this is going

560
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: to be a pattern, this exact kind of thing where

561
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: you're like, well, we're not going to do anything and

562
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: we're not going to take any action to try to

563
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 1: make this less common, but we'll say it's bad. Right.

564
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: That is a real strong through line in the Southern

565
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: Baptist Convention in the seminary all that good stuff. So Um,

566
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 1: while they are limented lynching, the SPTS approved of the

567
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: Lost Cause mythology which spread in Southern Baptist schools and churches,

568
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: and that Cody is a big part of why you

569
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: see so many Confederate flagstickers on cars. Um. This a

570
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 1: historic take. We'll we'll do a whole thing on the

571
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 1: Lost Cause at some point, but basically it describes the

572
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: Civil War as a conflict caused by not the South's

573
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: desire to in like maintain a nightmare system of like

574
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: human bondage, but because of the South need to uphold

575
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: their honor and you know, states rights and all this

576
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: is there's this like noble culture that like and may

577
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: sometime times like the people who are smarter about it

578
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 1: be like, well, slavery was bad, but it wasn't any

579
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 1: worse in the South, and it wasn't all these other places,

580
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 1: and like there was all these good things and it

581
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,320
Speaker 1: wasn't just about like obviously it was about slavery. The

582
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,320
Speaker 1: Confederates at the time we're like, yeah, it's about sucking slaves. Literally, Yeah,

583
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 1: they were about it. Yeah. Um. Archibald T. Robertson, a

584
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,200
Speaker 1: prominent professor at the SPTS in the early nineteen hundreds,

585
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 1: supported and taught the books of Thomas Dixon as like

586
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: major Southern Baptist like texts in their schools. Do you

587
00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: know who Thomas Dixon was? He wrote The Klansman, which

588
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: was adapted in nineteen fifteen to the film The Birth

589
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,319
Speaker 1: of a Nation. So this guy's books are all over

590
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist schools in the Yeah, it's good to be educated. Yeah, Now,

591
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: the spt reading is important. It's great to learn because

592
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: knowledge is white power. Knowledge is like Christ. Um. So,

593
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 1: spt S faculty supported segregation until nineteen forty, which, if

594
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna be totally fair, means they were ahead of

595
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,400
Speaker 1: a lot of the United They were not the last

596
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:13,280
Speaker 1: you know. Um, that's nineteen forties when the SPTS admits

597
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,520
Speaker 1: its first black students again, and this is the school

598
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 1: that can like train people become pastors. The process of

599
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: giving up segregation was uneven because there's a bunch of

600
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist schools and stuff. But the SPTS integrates like

601
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: as a general rule, they integrate their classrooms in nineteen

602
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: fifty one under the advice of Southern Baptist Convention President

603
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: Ellis Fuller Um. This puts them like three years ahead

604
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: of the federal mandate. UM. In general, SPTS faculty and

605
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: much of the Southern Baptist leadership supported the civil rights

606
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 1: movement with hesitation, but apparently with some honesty. And in

607
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty one they invite Dart Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

608
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: To speak um, which isn't nothing um. So they are

609
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: they do like while there is this strong conservative chunk,

610
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: they are able to like they're not on the side

611
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: that's you know, uh anti Martin Luther King. Yeah, they're

612
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 1: not like fighting tooth and nail, right right, right, It's

613
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: it's just kind of more like, well, I guess we're

614
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: getting dragged into the present. But maybe that's not bad.

615
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 1: Which is not the worst that anyone in America handles things.

616
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 1: It's not the best. I don't give them a lot

617
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 1: of credit, but not the worst. Yeah, yeah, let's give

618
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: me say give me cy um. But yeah. By the

619
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: early ninety by the early nineteen sixties, a huge chunk

620
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: of the faith had become quite liberal in their doctrine,

621
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: um and progressive on a whole host of social and

622
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: political issues. A lot of this has to do with

623
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,879
Speaker 1: the growth of black churches, Black Southern Baptist churches um

624
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,560
Speaker 1: and Yeah, only about six percent of Southern Baptist or Black,

625
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 1: but something like one fifth of their churches are headed

626
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: by black pastors. Um. And in this period, a lot

627
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 1: of those folks are kind of more liberal a lot

628
00:36:53,239 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 1: of No, they're not the only ones. There's you know,

629
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: there's this this is the sixties, right, Like, there's this

630
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: kind of progressive wave that's sweeping over a lot of

631
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: the country. Um. Now, as I've noted a few times,

632
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: there is no creed for Southern Baptists, but they do

633
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:08,279
Speaker 1: have an what they call an outline of faith, which

634
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: is basically a creed. Um. It's called the Yeah, it's

635
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: called the Baptist Faith and Message. One thing that does

636
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: legitimately separate the SPC for other faiths is that the

637
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: faith and message is edited and revised over time and

638
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 1: reflective to democratic or at least kind of quasi democratic pressure.

639
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,600
Speaker 1: Some segment of people within kind of the faith every

640
00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: year kind of like vote on things that will be

641
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: ways in which this will be like added like different

642
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: motions and stuff. So it is much more the Southern

643
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: Baptist Convention is much more able to kind of move

644
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: with the times than a lot of denominations that that are.

645
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,520
Speaker 1: So you know, for as large and as centralized as

646
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 1: it becomes, it is kind of more reflective, able to

647
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,879
Speaker 1: be more reflective at the times. And I'm gonna quote

648
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: from a write up by Religion Dispatches here. The first

649
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,960
Speaker 1: version was issued in nineteen twenty five, during the heyday

650
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,440
Speaker 1: of the fundamentalist modernist crisis. In nineteen sixty three, revision

651
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 1: toned down the fundamentalism of the older statement, articulating more

652
00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:05,080
Speaker 1: strongly Baptist latitude and doctrine that favored the liberty of

653
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 1: conscious conscience. So you see, you've got this throughout the

654
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,520
Speaker 1: early part of the country. Wow, there's also you know,

655
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 1: the things going on in the country about like the

656
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,440
Speaker 1: civil rights movement and all this other stuff. Within the

657
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 1: Baptist faith, there's this debate over fundamentalism. Is the Bible

658
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: perfectly inerrant and unquestionable and something to be taken totally

659
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 1: literally or can we be like not lunatics about how

660
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: we read the Bible right, and in kind of this

661
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: period for the middle of the century, the people who

662
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, let's adapt our faith to the modern

663
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: era and like be different than people were in the

664
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 1: nineteen twenties or in the eighteen sixties or whatever. Those

665
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:47,759
Speaker 1: folks are winning, like they're winning for a while. Um. Now,

666
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: this opened things up for Baptist churches that might in

667
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: the future come to embrace and support even more radical

668
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,319
Speaker 1: ideas women's rights, gay rights, all that good stuff. So

669
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: and indeed, Baptist for a time were some of the

670
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 1: most liberal denomination. From nineteen sixty five to nineteen sixty eight,

671
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 1: when abortion was kind of starting to become a hotbed

672
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: issue in the United States, Baptist publications did not mention

673
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,200
Speaker 1: abortion like there's no evidence of it being an issue

674
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 1: at all, uh, nor did any Baptist body take action

675
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: on it one way or the other. In nineteen seventy

676
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 1: a pull by the Baptist Sunday School Board found that

677
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 1: seventy pastors supported abortion to protect the mother, and seventy

678
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: one percent in the case of rape. In nineteen seventy three,

679
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: a pull by the Baptist Standard News Journal found that

680
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: nine of Texas Baptists believe the state's abortion laws were

681
00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: too restrictive. Cannot emphasize how different things were back then. Yeah,

682
00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 1: and again, we talked about this in our episodes on

683
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,799
Speaker 1: the Religious Right and the Moral Majority Night. This is

684
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: it's it's not that big. It is starting to become politicized.

685
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: And obviously Catholics have always been against it, right, but

686
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: fucking Protestants don't have a long history in the United

687
00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 1: States of giving a ship about abortion. Now, nineteen seventy

688
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 1: three is the year Roe v Way you know happens

689
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: um and the Southern Baptist Convention endorses the right to

690
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 1: choose and their their big vote magic that year. Now,

691
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,560
Speaker 1: this makes some people happy, but it makes a lot

692
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: of people angry, and it particularly infuriates a ship head

693
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: named Larry Lewis. Larry is a St. Louis pastor who

694
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: went on to run the North American Mission Board. This

695
00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: is like the board that's we will be talking about

696
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 1: them a lot later. They're like the folks running the

697
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: SPCs like mission because like that's the whole big deal

698
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,480
Speaker 1: for them going out and preaching to people. So in

699
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine, Larry Lewis picks up a newspaper that

700
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 1: listed the Southern Baptist Convention alongside the Unitarian Church as

701
00:40:38,280 --> 00:40:41,920
Speaker 1: support of abortion. As he later recalled, quote that bothered

702
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: me a lot. So now I'm gonna quote from a

703
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: rite up by the Baptist press, who suck and chicargo

704
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 1: glass quote. So Louis did something about it, proposing in

705
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty the first and more than twenty pro life

706
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: resolutions adopted by the SPC over the next few decades.

707
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 1: When Lewis became HMB Home Mission Board President of in

708
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: nineteen seven, one of his first actions was to create

709
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: the Office of Abortion Alternatives to help churches establish crisis

710
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 1: pregnancy centers. We did an episode of it could happen

711
00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: here on crisis Pregnancy Centers. Not great stuff? Do they

712
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:16,840
Speaker 1: not help? I am oh no, um, I would say not.

713
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 1: So you know this is again. We have a couple

714
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: of periods, one in the late sixty hundred and one.

715
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:26,720
Speaker 1: Now we're like things were going great for a while

716
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 1: and now they start to get funked up again. Um.

717
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: So Louis was just one of the conservative white leaders

718
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 1: of the church who started in the nineteen eighties flipping

719
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,120
Speaker 1: the fuck out about how the evil liberals were taking

720
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 1: over America's most racist faith, most particularly, and most significantly.

721
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:46,919
Speaker 1: Some of the leaders that scared were two guys named

722
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,400
Speaker 1: Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler. Now these were both prominent

723
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:57,080
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist You just know, oh my god, you just

724
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: know fucking Page Pressler, you or or fuming Age Patterson

725
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 1: or Paul Pressler, both of those guys you know, have

726
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 1: like opinions about inner city crime that are basically like

727
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: basically a fucking um uh neo Nazi tract from the

728
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Like yeah, absolutely filing, Oh my god, like, yeah,

729
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: I am a nominative determinalist. For example, you hear the

730
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: name Dr Jordan B. Peterson, You know what that guy

731
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 1: is going to be serving. He's gonna have a lot

732
00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:36,240
Speaker 1: of opinions about snakes gardens. It is time for another

733
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: at break. Yes, you know who else has strong opinions

734
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:45,560
Speaker 1: about racial hierarchies. They don't believe there should be any higherarchy.

735
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 1: The only hierarchy believes in is the hierarchy of children

736
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: on the private hunting preserve. They keep going off of

737
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: the coast of Indonesia and the people who hunt those

738
00:42:54,600 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: children as God intended promo code uh brisket. Yeah, however

739
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: you want, it's not gonna work. H We're back. So

740
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 1: we're talking about Paige Patterson and Paul Pressler, who are

741
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,799
Speaker 1: not wild in the And again, this kind of the

742
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 1: eighties is when this all really ramps up. But the seventies,

743
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: the Carter administration in particular, is when these guys all

744
00:43:25,520 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 1: start being like, we gotta take our faith back from

745
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,280
Speaker 1: these fucking liberals. Now, Paige had started preaching as a teenager,

746
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:35,240
Speaker 1: and he moved on to occupy several positions running churches

747
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: across the filthy ass South. He became to get some

748
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: scabby team up there telling me about when yeah, nobody

749
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: I trust. It's like every time I see Mormon missionaries

750
00:43:50,120 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 1: and it's like, my dudes, this is your first time

751
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: out of the house. What do you what do you

752
00:43:56,000 --> 00:44:00,719
Speaker 1: know about? Like what you like? Come on, man, Like,

753
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,239
Speaker 1: are you offering what do you go work at a

754
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 1: sparrow or some ship? Like some life experience? You know? Yeah, seriously, dude,

755
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 1: Like what come on? Um? Anyway, Um, so yeah, Page

756
00:44:15,440 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: starts as a teenager. He becomes president of Chris Wall

757
00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,400
Speaker 1: College in Dallas, Texas. Uh, there's my city of hate

758
00:44:21,440 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy five. Now, chris Well is a private

759
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 1: Baptist college. It started as a Bible institute and as

760
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: its president, it was Paige's job to inculcate new generations

761
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,360
Speaker 1: in the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. He is one of

762
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 1: these fundamentalists, you know. Um, and he's not a big

763
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 1: fan of Roe V. Wade. He does not like the

764
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: idea either that women can be ordained as ministers, which

765
00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 1: is starting to happen. He's really doesn't like that. And

766
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: again that's very anti Baptist originalism, right, like you need

767
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 1: to go back. Yeah, my dud be a little more

768
00:44:53,880 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: conservative maybe, Um, but no, he doesn't like this. Uh.

769
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: And he believes the Bible included quote an assignment from

770
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: God in this case that women, that a woman not

771
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: be involved in teaching or ruling capacity over men. Says

772
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 1: who says you? Says him. Well, it's very revealing of

773
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 1: his attitude too, because if it's like a normal person

774
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,759
Speaker 1: would be like, well, yeah, why wouldn't I mean, if

775
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,359
Speaker 1: it's all that matters to preach is like your relationship

776
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,239
Speaker 1: with God, and God loves everybody equally. Why wouldn't a

777
00:45:24,239 --> 00:45:26,879
Speaker 1: woman be able to preach? And his attitude is if

778
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: you are a preacher, you are ruling, and women can't

779
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 1: look like And it's like, yeah, man, I mean that's

780
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: maybe you shouldn't be doing anything, Like maybe fuck you entirely.

781
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: Maybe you need to sit down. Yeah yeah, maybe you

782
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:44,479
Speaker 1: need to sit to funk down bro Um. So Paul

783
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: Pressler was a judge and an extremely rich kid whose

784
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: father was a Harvard graduate and the vice precedent of

785
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:56,840
Speaker 1: ex On Mobile. Oh yeah, yeah, you can stop talking.

786
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: That's the good stuff. Will you hear about this piece

787
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 1: of ship? So Paul goes to Princeton and in I

788
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,000
Speaker 1: don't normally use Wikipedia as sources, but his Wikipedia biography

789
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: is clearly written by like somebody he paid to uphill

790
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: um and it includes lines stating that he quote confronted

791
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:23,239
Speaker 1: theological liberalism head on, having never wavered in the faith

792
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:27,919
Speaker 1: acquired in his youth wavering. These these guys both will

793
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: have several positions within the SBC. Um Patterson is going

794
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 1: to lead it for a while, and being guys who suck,

795
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: they were both good friends and together the two hatched

796
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,760
Speaker 1: a plan This isn't like the nineteen seventies. They sit down.

797
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,320
Speaker 1: This is like part a huge part of Southern Baptist

798
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: laure today. These two fuckers sit down at the Cafe

799
00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: Dumont in New Orleans. Um and a former Southern Baptist

800
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:52,560
Speaker 1: leader who now preaches against this kind of ship, Russell Moore,

801
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: describes how they quote mapped out on a napkin, how

802
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: the Convention could restore a commitment to the truth of

803
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: the Bible into faithfulness of its confessional documents. Now, it

804
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,560
Speaker 1: took these guys like a decade to organize the kind

805
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 1: of faccory that it took to wrench the Southern Baptist

806
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 1: Convention to the far right. But Patterson and Pressler used

807
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 1: their influence methodically to weld together Southern Baptist conservative pastors

808
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 1: into a voting block capable of manipulating the conventions procedures

809
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,720
Speaker 1: in their favor. In a write up for The Atlantic,

810
00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: Jonathan Merritt describes how it all came together. The two

811
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: men successfully executed their strategy, and the subsequent decades a

812
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: movement they labeled the Conservative Resurgence and their opponents dubbed

813
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: the fundamentalist takeover. Whatever one calls it. The result was

814
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: a purging of moderates from among denominational ranks, the codifying

815
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: of literal interpretations of the Bible, and the transformation of

816
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: the Southern Baptist Convention into a powerful ally of the

817
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 1: Republican Party. Great good stuff, uh, great great stuff yatching up. Yeah,

818
00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 1: So Patterson and their allies they see the nineteen sixty

819
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: three revision of the faith and message, which is again

820
00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: that creed that's not a creed, as a mistake. They

821
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 1: call it quote an open door to a less biblical church.

822
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 1: When they began to take over ship in the mid eighties,

823
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: and that's really when it starts to come together, Like

824
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: eight four eighty five, support for abortion was one of

825
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: the first things to go, but as Religion Dispatches notes,

826
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: they quickly moved beyond that quote. Among their first targets

827
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: were women, the Baptist women in ministry. By nineteen eight seven,

828
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: approximately five d women had been ordained by the SBC,

829
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:31,319
Speaker 1: and most especially women in the home. Southern Baptist fundamentalists

830
00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 1: busied themselves by creating an entire movement called complimentaryani Ism,

831
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: a theological doctrine of equal but separate sexes based on

832
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: the joyful submission of Wives and the restriction of female

833
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,319
Speaker 1: authority In they succeeded in adding a new article to

834
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:48,880
Speaker 1: the Baptist Faith and Message on the theology of the family.

835
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 1: The wife and husband are of equal worth before God,

836
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 1: since both are created in God's image. The marriage relationship

837
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 1: models the way God relates to his people. A husband

838
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,439
Speaker 1: is to love his wife as Christ loved the Church.

839
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 1: He has the God given responsibility to provide for, to protect,

840
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 1: and to lead his family. A wife is to submit

841
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,879
Speaker 1: herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband, even

842
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 1: as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ.

843
00:49:13,360 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 1: It sounds sounds like it sucks. It sounds I mean,

844
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: it sounds exactly what I expected. Yeah, it's not. It's

845
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 1: like you're you're describing my actual hell. Yeah, a good buddy,

846
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 1: it's equal equal, uh, separate but equal healthy exactly. Yeah.

847
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 1: Are trapped in this like hell of mischismo where they're

848
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 1: they're forced to deny all the aspects of their of

849
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,280
Speaker 1: their personalities that like, aren't this kind of toxic mascuml

850
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 1: linity and women are trapped in like an eternal prison.

851
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:48,799
Speaker 1: It's great, it's what God wants. Yeah. Um, actually had

852
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 1: a buddy when I was growing up, was a lot

853
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: older than me. We played D and D together and

854
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:56,399
Speaker 1: he was I'm actually I think it was his church.

855
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 1: I'm not sure it was his church or his wife.

856
00:49:57,760 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: But he gets, you know, hitched, and he gets married,

857
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,919
Speaker 1: and what's a lovely person. They seem to have. They're

858
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: still together, seemed to have a good relationship. She's very

859
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:09,600
Speaker 1: much like that kind of more um um uh forceful

860
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:12,880
Speaker 1: one of the two. But they had they they they

861
00:50:12,880 --> 00:50:15,680
Speaker 1: went to their wedding was in this like very fundamentalist

862
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:19,360
Speaker 1: Southern Baptist church, and I'm not sure maybe the preacher

863
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 1: could like read the vibes of the actual relationship, but

864
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:23,920
Speaker 1: he spent like ten minutes talking about the importance of

865
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 1: like the woman submitting to her husband. It was like

866
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 1: super awkward. They're all these glances between people of like, okay, buddy,

867
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:38,280
Speaker 1: you're really going on about this? Huh. It's fun stuff,

868
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:46,359
Speaker 1: so very fun. Yeah. Texas small town churches good good places.

869
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 1: So hierarchy and patriarchy were now written into a not

870
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,480
Speaker 1: a creed, creed that churches had to accept in order

871
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 1: to consider themselves. Southern Baptists this caused yet another major

872
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: major schism. A lot of moderates left the convention and

873
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 1: started to make new denominations UM and in fact, more recently,

874
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: President Jimmy Carter, History's greatest monster, renounced his membership in

875
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,840
Speaker 1: the church. He told one interviewer, at its most repugnant,

876
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: the belief that women must be subjugated to the wishes

877
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: of men. Excuses slavery, violence, forced prostitution, genital mutilation, and

878
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 1: national laws that omit rape as a crime. But it

879
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: also costs many millions of girls and women control over

880
00:51:23,160 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 1: their own bodies and lives, and continues to deny them

881
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: fair access to education, health, employment, and influence within their

882
00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: own communities. He said, He's he's been pretty solid for

883
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:35,040
Speaker 1: a while, but also it's it's worth noting again to

884
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 1: talk about how this changes. Carter's considers himself a member

885
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:41,800
Speaker 1: of the Southern Baptist Faith for a long time, like um,

886
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 1: because again, this shift is not all that old, you know.

887
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: Um yeah, I mean you keep saying that's like a

888
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:53,080
Speaker 1: whiplash kind of a shift. Yeah, yeah. And it's happened

889
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: a couple of times, right, you know, with with the

890
00:51:55,239 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 1: slavery and everything too, So Patterson and Pressler did not

891
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,080
Speaker 1: give a ship about the thing that Jimmy Carter has

892
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: an issue with, and they celebrated their victory over their

893
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:07,279
Speaker 1: great enemy women by carrying out a mass wedding ceremony

894
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: in the year two thousand. They led five, no, you're continuing,

895
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:15,800
Speaker 1: you don't have Yeah, yeah, it was a involuntary word

896
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 1: that now, but please don't. They led five and fifty

897
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 1: couples to renew their wedding vows, only this time with

898
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: more misogyny because they'd added these misogynists planks to the faith. Quote.

899
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:33,040
Speaker 1: Wives reciprocated and in one accord, pledging to graciously submit

900
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,840
Speaker 1: an honor their husband's role as servant leader while acknowledging

901
00:52:35,840 --> 00:52:39,280
Speaker 1: their responsibilities and as wife and mother as quote priority

902
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:48,239
Speaker 1: above all else. Accept God makes me unhappy, understand. But

903
00:52:48,280 --> 00:52:52,720
Speaker 1: it's like it's there's a lot of reasons this is funny,

904
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:54,560
Speaker 1: including the fact that all of the dudes who are

905
00:52:54,640 --> 00:52:56,520
Speaker 1: horny about this are the same kind of people who

906
00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,320
Speaker 1: will point out like, well is law made submission. And

907
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: it's like, man, your faiths have the same fucking problems.

908
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: And I do think about a lot lately. How do

909
00:53:09,600 --> 00:53:12,720
Speaker 1: you not all the time, just about the way people

910
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: participate in their own oppression and um and the stories

911
00:53:18,680 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: that you're told, and growing up in communities and environments

912
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: like this where you you know or whatever figures that

913
00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 1: push you into thinking that this is who you are

914
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: and what you're worth and what your role is and

915
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 1: that and you become that's that starts to feel like safety.

916
00:53:34,320 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 1: Though for a lot of these people it was probably

917
00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:41,280
Speaker 1: very dangerous consent to consent that your husband has control

918
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:46,359
Speaker 1: and that you relinquished that. I'm sure that they were

919
00:53:46,440 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there's a lot of abuse. I know

920
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:55,479
Speaker 1: we're getting to stuff. Okatie boy is there? Yeah. So

921
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:59,720
Speaker 1: Convention leadership was in lockstep behind all of these changes.

922
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,080
Speaker 1: A statement signed by many prominent Southern Baptist pastors and

923
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 1: teachers affirmed this, stating quote, we are convinced a denial

924
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 1: or neglect of these principles will lead to increasingly destructive

925
00:54:09,520 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 1: consequences in our families, our churches, and the culture at large. Now,

926
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 1: for most of the twenty first century, the Southern Baptist

927
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: Convention has been a reliable reservoir of the most regressive

928
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: attitudes of our era. Gay pastors were also banned in

929
00:54:22,880 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: the SPC organizing documents. Interestingly enough, here's a fun fact

930
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: for you kids. You know who's not banned for being

931
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: an SPC pastor sex offenders? What the fun? That's just

932
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:46,279
Speaker 1: but yeah, but but maybe Okay. What you're failing to

933
00:54:46,280 --> 00:54:48,799
Speaker 1: account for is that Paige Patterson has a lot of

934
00:54:48,840 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 1: friends who are sex offenders. Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't

935
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 1: realize that he was. He's got a bunch of buddies

936
00:54:54,280 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: who were doing sex among Baptist hasn't look like if Katie,

937
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,319
Speaker 1: if like you were trying to get a place in

938
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 1: your Landlordie, you know, called me as a reference, like

939
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: I would say, oh, yeah, Katie, she's got like a

940
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,239
Speaker 1: seven fifty credit rating or whatever. Is that good? What

941
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 1: is good for credit? That's good? Right? I think that

942
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 1: is good. I know that that is good. No, that's good.

943
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:23,240
Speaker 1: I don't know what he's a very excuse me, everybody listening.

944
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,320
Speaker 1: Seven fifty is a very good credit score. Don't listen.

945
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: You didn't see, Sophie, you go, But I will. I will.

946
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:32,280
Speaker 1: What's important, Katie is I will lie to your landlord

947
00:55:32,320 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 1: about your credit. Thank you, thank you so much. And

948
00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:38,960
Speaker 1: in the same way, Paige Patterson is going to make

949
00:55:38,960 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: sure that his friends who were repeatedly committing sex crimes

950
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:45,480
Speaker 1: can be that pastors in the same way. Is the

951
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:48,799
Speaker 1: phrase that you just use, UM, And I wondered, maybe

952
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: if they're not comparable situations, but we can leave it

953
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,399
Speaker 1: at that. We don't have to explore that. We don't

954
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: have to explore that, you know, we can't explore Cody

955
00:55:57,560 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: Katie is a guy named Darryl gil Your now in

956
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 1: Gilliard Daryl Garrell. Darryl Darryl gild would be amazing. So

957
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: he is one of the specs like prominent black pastors,

958
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 1: and he specifically there's this guy let me pull up

959
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: his name, UM, whose name will be familiar to a

960
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 1: lot of people, who was like, uh, let's uh. There's

961
00:56:24,960 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: this pastor named Findes who's like another prominent black like

962
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: the the like most kind of like celebrity SPC black preacher.

963
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: And Gilliard is considered to be like, oh, this is

964
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:36,319
Speaker 1: like he's he's the new version of this guy who's

965
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: like huge for us, makes us a shipload of money,

966
00:56:38,600 --> 00:56:42,839
Speaker 1: very popular, UM, and he's a protege of Page Patterson, UM,

967
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,799
Speaker 1: who calls him quote the nation's next great African American preacher. Um.

968
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,960
Speaker 1: He becomes prominent when he earned several appearances on Jerry

969
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:54,719
Speaker 1: Fallwell's national TV show Super Charismatic. And he has this backstory.

970
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 1: He has this like lurid story about who he's like

971
00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,759
Speaker 1: raised as a homeless orphan, you know, in in uh

972
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: poor place. And it's none of it's true. It's like

973
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:05,960
Speaker 1: all lies who's not raised as a homeless orphan. But

974
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:08,600
Speaker 1: that's a good story. Um. And now I'm gonna quote

975
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: next from the problematic source Baptist news. Beginning of nineteen

976
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,239
Speaker 1: eighty five, Gilliard was hired and then forced out of

977
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:18,840
Speaker 1: positions at three Dallas area churches, Victory Baptist Church and

978
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 1: Richardson Concord Missionary Baptist Church in Dallas and Shiloh Baptist

979
00:57:22,640 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: Church in Garland. He was similarly hired and forced to

980
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,200
Speaker 1: resign at Hilltop Baptist Church in Norman, Oklahoma. At least

981
00:57:28,200 --> 00:57:30,640
Speaker 1: twenty five women in the Dallas church publicly accused him

982
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: of sexual misconduct. Um. So that is how the Southern Baptists,

983
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:38,720
Speaker 1: when they have to admit that this is a thing

984
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:43,320
Speaker 1: that happened, talk about it. Right. That's that's their summary

985
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 1: of this guy's crimes. Um, it's actually quite a lot

986
00:57:46,640 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 1: worse than that. Um, but that already sounded already. I'm

987
00:57:54,120 --> 00:57:56,440
Speaker 1: gonna quote from an article in the Houston Chronicle by

988
00:57:56,560 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 1: Rob Down, by Rob Down and sorry rob uh yeah,

989
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: about what was actually going on with with with Monsignor

990
00:58:07,960 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 1: Gilbert Um. Two years after Gilliards, he began pastoring a

991
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 1: non SPC congregation a few blocks away from Vines's megachurts

992
00:58:16,760 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 1: in Jacksonville, Florida. While there, he was convicted of sex

993
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 1: crimes involving two teens. He faced multiple civil suits, including

994
00:58:22,720 --> 00:58:25,880
Speaker 1: one eventually settled from a grieving widow who alleged that

995
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: she was raped and impregnated by him during counseling sessions.

996
00:58:30,000 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 1: Oh my god, very bad dude. Now, A big part

997
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: of how he's able to do this is he is

998
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,680
Speaker 1: personal friends with Patterson and with Vines, who are like

999
00:58:40,440 --> 00:58:44,280
Speaker 1: fucking running the SPC in a lot of ways. Um,

1000
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: And so he'll tell his victims like, hey, you know,

1001
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: if you have a problem with what I'm doing, like,

1002
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 1: take it up with fucking Paige Patterson, you know, take

1003
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: it up with Vines. Right, these guys who are like, um,

1004
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,720
Speaker 1: the big and and for his part as these he

1005
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: is getting kicked out of churches, you know, for doing

1006
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 1: sex crimes. Uh. Patterson backs him to the to the

1007
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 1: hilt um to quote from the Houston Chronicle quote um,

1008
00:59:10,320 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: Patterson wrote that Gilliard was not guilty of the allegations

1009
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 1: or morally culpable. He said that Bailey, one of this

1010
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: guy's victims, must forget the past and should refrain from

1011
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 1: making public statements. While Patterson works to rehabilitate the gifted

1012
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,840
Speaker 1: young preacher from his mistakes, sorrow and humiliation, he is

1013
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:30,720
Speaker 1: no longer a problem to you, Patterson wrote, He is

1014
00:59:30,760 --> 00:59:34,240
Speaker 1: worth salvage. Will you agree not to disparage him any further,

1015
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:36,680
Speaker 1: thus giving me a chance to help Darryll count for

1016
00:59:36,880 --> 00:59:41,600
Speaker 1: God and for good. Huh uh huh, Yeah, that's cool.

1017
00:59:41,920 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 1: Can we all agree to not disparage this board? Don't

1018
00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: disparage him with your talk of him raping abuse. Can

1019
00:59:53,680 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: you be so cruel? He's in pain? Yeah, he's good

1020
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,600
Speaker 1: at talking in a pulp at guys. Um, do you

1021
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: not understand the stakes here? But also, this is the

1022
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:06,440
Speaker 1: argument they make is that like, well, honestly, it's not

1023
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,920
Speaker 1: that bad if he's committing multiple sex crimes. As long

1024
01:00:10,040 --> 01:00:17,800
Speaker 1: as he's winning souls the victims, you suffer. Well, it's

1025
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 1: also just like you know, if you're a victim, you

1026
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 1: know that's bad and everything, but you just suffer once, right,

1027
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:23,360
Speaker 1: it's just a few minutes. Whereas if you win a

1028
01:00:23,440 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 1: soul to Christ, that's an eternity of torment that they're

1029
01:00:26,880 --> 01:00:30,479
Speaker 1: saved from that. And the thing is that is the logic. Yeah,

1030
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: and here's the I mean, this goes so much even that,

1031
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:35,919
Speaker 1: but that if that is what you believe by God,

1032
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 1: you can justify damny or anything anything. Yeah. Um, which

1033
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: is a problem, um bigger than this, but this is

1034
01:00:44,280 --> 01:00:46,520
Speaker 1: one of the reasons in which that's a nightmare problem.

1035
01:00:46,640 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: So with Patterson's help again, Gilliard repeatedly gets jobs, preaching,

1036
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: at one point to more than seven thousand people at

1037
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:55,200
Speaker 1: a church in Florida. Um and Patterson would later claim

1038
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 1: that since he'd been part of the panel that had

1039
01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 1: investigated allegations against Gilliard and quote got him to confess

1040
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 1: that guilt publicly, it was fine for him to help

1041
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: Gilliard get jobs to preach elsewhere. He said, he was sorry,

1042
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 1: what more do you want from me? Effectively, the leader

1043
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,840
Speaker 1: of the Southern Baptist convention. People, what else can happen?

1044
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:17,680
Speaker 1: What can you do? Yes? Now. In two thousand, the

1045
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 1: same year that he remarried five fifty people with his buddy,

1046
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: the judge, Patterson sent a letter to a pastor asking

1047
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:26,960
Speaker 1: him for advice on stopping sexual abuse in a church.

1048
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,320
Speaker 1: This pastor writes a letter to Page Patterson's like, Hey,

1049
01:01:29,680 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 1: I am concerned about sexual abuse happening within my church.

1050
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,240
Speaker 1: What is your advice for? Like avoid you know, for

1051
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,960
Speaker 1: protecting my with a reasonable thing to do? Write? You're

1052
01:01:38,000 --> 01:01:40,000
Speaker 1: leading a church. This is the guy who's running things.

1053
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:41,520
Speaker 1: You want his advice. I don't want anyone to get

1054
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,400
Speaker 1: hurt in my congregation. Page's advice was for him to

1055
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 1: quote hold lunch and one hour awareness seminars, not because

1056
01:01:48,440 --> 01:01:50,880
Speaker 1: they'll stop abuse, but so that if there is ever

1057
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: a lawsuit over sexual abuse, it will look like the

1058
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: church did something to do. Yeah, you smooth it over you. Yeah. Now.

1059
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 1: Not long after all this um again, early two thousands,

1060
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: the Catholic Church's sex abuse scandal blows wide open um.

1061
01:02:05,560 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys have heard about this,

1062
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:08,800
Speaker 1: but there's been a couple of problems within the Catholic

1063
01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 1: Church about sex sea a year for centuries, you know,

1064
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:17,400
Speaker 1: not that big a deal. But yeah, so this is

1065
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: a big, big story. Um. And because it's a big story,

1066
01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 1: it kind of again there's there's a couple of things.

1067
01:02:26,040 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: There's this anti democratic, very right wing, very centralized thing happening,

1068
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: but there's also still if a bunch of Southern Baptists

1069
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: have the mood take them by something that happens, they

1070
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: can pass resolutions that are like good broadly speaking, um.

1071
01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: And so that that year, kind of inspired by what

1072
01:02:42,480 --> 01:02:45,080
Speaker 1: had happened within the Catholic Church, they pass a resolution

1073
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 1: on the importance of sexual integrity for clergy who were

1074
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:52,520
Speaker 1: to be quote above reproach morally. Um. They also urged

1075
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: churches to quote discipline those guilty of any sexual abuse

1076
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:00,400
Speaker 1: in obedience to Matthew eighteen six seventeen. I'm not great

1077
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 1: at reading the numbers of Bible verses, but that verse

1078
01:03:03,320 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 1: reads quote, if your brother or sister sins go and

1079
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: point out their fault just between the two of you,

1080
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,440
Speaker 1: if they listen to you, you have won them over.

1081
01:03:10,760 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 1: But if they will not listen, take one or two

1082
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:15,000
Speaker 1: others along, so that every matter may be established by

1083
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: the testimony of two or three witnesses. If you still

1084
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: refuse to listen, tell it to the church. And if

1085
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them

1086
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 1: as you would a pagan or a tax collector. Again,

1087
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 1: yea classic libertarian rant. Yeah, yeah, that's one of those

1088
01:03:35,320 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: verses that like if you're the kind of guy who

1089
01:03:37,280 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 1: makes your own license plates and then shoots at police

1090
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,480
Speaker 1: during traffic stuffs, like you're a big fan of that one. Um,

1091
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: But no, you can obviously, again, like everything in the Bible,

1092
01:03:47,720 --> 01:03:50,480
Speaker 1: there's a reasonable interpretation of that, which is the Christian

1093
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: Church is essentially this like radical social movement, uh that

1094
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:57,560
Speaker 1: doesn't want to be torn apart by like petty dispute.

1095
01:03:57,560 --> 01:03:58,960
Speaker 1: So it's saying like, hey, if you've got like if

1096
01:03:59,120 --> 01:04:01,439
Speaker 1: if someone does something kind of sucked up, first talked

1097
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: to him one on one and try to get them

1098
01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:04,360
Speaker 1: to see that they like did something that was like

1099
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: hurtful or negative. And if that doesn't help, bring other

1100
01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 1: people along and try to you know, you gradually get

1101
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 1: to the point where intervention and they don't people the

1102
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: opportunity exactly, and if they don't listen, then you you know,

1103
01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 1: then maybe they need to be out and stuff, right,

1104
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:22,120
Speaker 1: not that person is a rapist and exactly, and I

1105
01:04:22,360 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: this it's I don't know, the Bible versus probably talking

1106
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: more like, yeah, what if a guy doesn't want to

1107
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 1: share his fish? You know? Yeah, they weren't talking like

1108
01:04:31,240 --> 01:04:34,200
Speaker 1: what if a guy is systematically molesting women as part

1109
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,400
Speaker 1: of a network of churches that more people like a

1110
01:04:38,480 --> 01:04:43,400
Speaker 1: tax collector? Yeah, um well what if? So what if

1111
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,760
Speaker 1: I want something worse for this person? How I treat

1112
01:04:46,800 --> 01:04:51,800
Speaker 1: a tax collector? Yeah exactly. Um, now again, there's a

1113
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,439
Speaker 1: number of ways you can interpret this. Southern Baptist leaders

1114
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,760
Speaker 1: tended to take it to mean if some if if

1115
01:04:56,800 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 1: a pastor or someone else who is affiliated with us

1116
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,880
Speaker 1: molest somebody, give him another chance, move them, give me

1117
01:05:02,880 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: another chance, and you give another chance, they give him

1118
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 1: another chance. It's also I mean, it's cop ship and

1119
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 1: it's Catholic pre ship, right, yeah exactly. Okay, Well was

1120
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,440
Speaker 1: moving to their place and then people where it happened,

1121
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:21,880
Speaker 1: they'll forget about it. And you go to another place

1122
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:24,360
Speaker 1: and it happens, and let's let's just put you around

1123
01:05:24,400 --> 01:05:28,000
Speaker 1: people who don't know who you are. Exactly, Let's remove

1124
01:05:28,080 --> 01:05:30,320
Speaker 1: you from the community. That now has some immunity to

1125
01:05:30,400 --> 01:05:32,280
Speaker 1: you because they're aware of that you're a creep. And

1126
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 1: let's put you in a new place. Yeah, it's good

1127
01:05:37,320 --> 01:05:42,680
Speaker 1: and good, Cody cool, good. Yeah. In three, popular Illinois

1128
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:46,640
Speaker 1: pastor Leslie Mason was caught molesting four young girls. State

1129
01:05:46,760 --> 01:05:49,120
Speaker 1: leaders told him he would be fired and lose sefferance

1130
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: pay if he did not resign. Interesting that they gave

1131
01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 1: a shit about that. I would say fire is asked

1132
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 1: because he molested four girls, but maybe not as like

1133
01:05:59,680 --> 01:06:03,960
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, yeah, maybe fire him from a cannon. I

1134
01:06:04,000 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: don't know. So he gets convicted and is sentenced to

1135
01:06:07,760 --> 01:06:09,919
Speaker 1: seven years in prison and a plea deal which drops

1136
01:06:09,960 --> 01:06:12,600
Speaker 1: all but two of his charges. Um, he gets I mean,

1137
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: probably something messed up there, but whatever. He goes to prison.

1138
01:06:15,080 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 1: So he gets out after he does his time, and

1139
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 1: he goes right back to preach in a new SBC

1140
01:06:19,200 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 1: church just miles away from his old one. He becomes

1141
01:06:21,880 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 1: a rising star within the church, again, traveling around the

1142
01:06:25,040 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 1: state and preaching until his past charges are publicized by

1143
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 1: a writer with the local Baptist newspaper. And again you

1144
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 1: could see this as a success for the fact that

1145
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:35,160
Speaker 1: the Southern Baptists have set up their own media arm. Right.

1146
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:38,520
Speaker 1: This is a member of the community who is exposed

1147
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:41,400
Speaker 1: this guy right, which is dope. Right. That's unequivocally a

1148
01:06:41,480 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 1: good thing, good journalism. Good on you, buddy. But people

1149
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:48,800
Speaker 1: don't react well to this. Angry readers to lose the newspaper,

1150
01:06:48,920 --> 01:06:52,680
Speaker 1: and condemnation against the newspapers expose pours in from the

1151
01:06:52,760 --> 01:06:57,480
Speaker 1: Illinois State Baptist Association Director Glenn Aikin's complains. Quote to

1152
01:06:57,640 --> 01:07:01,200
Speaker 1: have singled out Les in such a sense stationalistic manner

1153
01:07:01,480 --> 01:07:05,160
Speaker 1: ignores many others who have done the same thing. Nearly

1154
01:07:05,680 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 1: you could have oh wait, you could have asked nearly

1155
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:10,680
Speaker 1: any staff member and gotten the names of several prominent

1156
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,160
Speaker 1: churches were the same sort of sexual misconduct has occurred

1157
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:19,400
Speaker 1: recently in our staked. That's bad to names, buddy, do that,

1158
01:07:20,000 --> 01:07:22,440
Speaker 1: because you couldn't then go do that, then do that.

1159
01:07:23,200 --> 01:07:26,640
Speaker 1: It's like Derek Chauvin's lawyer being like, look, he was

1160
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 1: just doing what cops are trained to do when he

1161
01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: murdered that Man's I'm watching We Own This City, this

1162
01:07:33,720 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 1: HBO show about dirty cops in Baltimore, and that's what

1163
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,480
Speaker 1: it is. It's like one after the other we'll like, yeah,

1164
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:43,520
Speaker 1: well that guy's doing it. This guy, this guy's man,

1165
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 1: that's that's why it's bad to be you like, yeah, right,

1166
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 1: do you not get it yet? And yes, it's like

1167
01:07:51,800 --> 01:07:55,160
Speaker 1: when you're staring at something like, yes, that's the problem.

1168
01:07:55,560 --> 01:08:00,720
Speaker 1: This is the problem. You are a problem. Yeah, man. So, obviously,

1169
01:08:01,040 --> 01:08:03,439
Speaker 1: abused by church officials did not start in the early

1170
01:08:03,520 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 1: two thousands. Right, I'm sure that Southern Baptists, but under

1171
01:08:08,160 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 1: the raid of Patterson and Pressler and their acolytes, deliberately

1172
01:08:11,960 --> 01:08:15,640
Speaker 1: hiding and supporting the rehabilitation of pastors who assaulted children

1173
01:08:15,920 --> 01:08:20,639
Speaker 1: becomes basically official policy. Debbie Vasquez was molested at age

1174
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:23,280
Speaker 1: fourteen by her pastor in Sanger, Texas, back in the

1175
01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:26,840
Speaker 1: late nineteen seventies. She was assaulted several times before being

1176
01:08:26,880 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 1: impregnated by a married pastor more than a dozen years

1177
01:08:29,840 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 1: older than her. For years, she kept the secret. But

1178
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: then in the early two thousands, while the Conservatives tightened

1179
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 1: their grip on the Southern Baptist Convention, stories like Mason's

1180
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:41,640
Speaker 1: began to filter out. She decided it was time to

1181
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 1: take a tremendous risk and try to do something. And

1182
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote next from an investigation published by the

1183
01:08:47,280 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 1: Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express News. I think

1184
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 1: I said just the Chronicle earlier. It's a joint kind

1185
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:55,200
Speaker 1: of big investigation between the Houston Chronicle and the San

1186
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: Antonio Expressed News that honestly deserves the fucking Pulitzer quote.

1187
01:08:59,760 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 1: In June two eight, she paid her way to Indianapolis,

1188
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:04,920
Speaker 1: where she and others asked leaders of the Southern Baptist

1189
01:09:04,960 --> 01:09:07,799
Speaker 1: Convention and its forty seven thousand churches to track sexual

1190
01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:13,040
Speaker 1: predators and take action against congregations that harbored or concealed abusers. Vasquez,

1191
01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:15,719
Speaker 1: by then in her forties, implored them to consider prevention

1192
01:09:16,320 --> 01:09:19,720
Speaker 1: policies like those adopted by faiths that include the Catholic Church.

1193
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,559
Speaker 1: Listen to what God has to say, she said, According

1194
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:25,320
Speaker 1: to audio of the meeting, which she recorded, all that

1195
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:28,080
Speaker 1: evil needs is for good to do nothing. Please help

1196
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: me and others that will be hurt. Days later, Southern

1197
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:36,479
Speaker 1: Baptist leaders rejected nearly every proposed reform. Now in the

1198
01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: years that followed, that's two thousand and eight. In the

1199
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:46,800
Speaker 1: years that follow more than yeah that thanks Obama, UM

1200
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:50,280
Speaker 1: more than two hundred and fifties Southern Baptist pastors, leaders,

1201
01:09:50,320 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 1: and volunteers would molest or sexually assault children and other

1202
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:56,400
Speaker 1: members of their congregation. More than seven victims have come

1203
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 1: forward to date in total. Many would do it more

1204
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:01,200
Speaker 1: than once in multi bull churches. And we'll tell that

1205
01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 1: story and we'll also tell some stuff that's less depressing

1206
01:10:04,280 --> 01:10:08,320
Speaker 1: in part two. Oh, I can't wait. Part of that

1207
01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 1: I look forward to. Yeah, aspects of that will be

1208
01:10:11,600 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 1: very cathartic. Others won't sure, won't get you got any

1209
01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 1: you've got any plugs for us at the end. Here, boy,

1210
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:30,320
Speaker 1: you can check out our other shows. Some more news

1211
01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:33,519
Speaker 1: is available on YouTube and where you get podcasts. Even

1212
01:10:33,560 --> 01:10:36,960
Speaker 1: more news is available where you get the podcasts and

1213
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 1: are tweet tweets are online? Are tweets? Are your tweets?

1214
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:46,640
Speaker 1: Where you go to get the tweets? Yeah? At the

1215
01:10:46,680 --> 01:10:50,560
Speaker 1: tweet store. Yeah. Paton told invest more time in my

1216
01:10:50,680 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 1: other Patreon social media we should all get one TikTok together.

1217
01:10:57,880 --> 01:10:59,519
Speaker 1: That's kind of what I was getting at it. I'm

1218
01:10:59,600 --> 01:11:03,280
Speaker 1: actually really I actually think maybe we should and we

1219
01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:05,920
Speaker 1: should talk to TikTok. We could have some real fun

1220
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 1: in that in that environment, just the kids, kids are

1221
01:11:11,760 --> 01:11:17,640
Speaker 1: dabbing a lot these. I think. I think that when

1222
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: the kids wanted more of us. You know, kids have

1223
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:27,640
Speaker 1: on guys, let's do so. I'm sorry, Katie, I cut

1224
01:11:27,680 --> 01:11:32,439
Speaker 1: you off. No, no, I wasn't going anywhere good. I

1225
01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 1: was just going to say that we should make our

1226
01:11:34,200 --> 01:11:37,560
Speaker 1: TikTok be Paul Ryan themed, just like bringing back you know,

1227
01:11:37,920 --> 01:11:43,640
Speaker 1: like Ryan. That will hit with the teens. Yeah, I

1228
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:46,200
Speaker 1: think the teens are. The teens are ready for a

1229
01:11:46,280 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 1: bright vice presidential candidate who does cross. They weren't ready before,

1230
01:11:50,479 --> 01:11:53,160
Speaker 1: which is why they were too young. There were two

1231
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: young and now they're the perfect age to see that

1232
01:11:55,400 --> 01:12:00,679
Speaker 1: picture in working out, you know that post? Right? Oh yeah,

1233
01:12:00,840 --> 01:12:03,280
Speaker 1: I think I speak for everyone when I say we've

1234
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,920
Speaker 1: all suffered enough. I mean, it would be fun that

1235
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:10,760
Speaker 1: picture of Paul Ryan, what we could do with it,

1236
01:12:10,840 --> 01:12:12,479
Speaker 1: because it's a it's a piece of That picture of

1237
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:14,759
Speaker 1: Paul Ryan is a piece of one of my favorite

1238
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 1: kinds of content, which is official Republican Party communicates attempting

1239
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:23,240
Speaker 1: to get people horny. Um. It's like it's like a

1240
01:12:23,360 --> 01:12:28,040
Speaker 1: species of Republican Party propaganda, and it's so embarrassing every time.

1241
01:12:28,160 --> 01:12:31,800
Speaker 1: Include Don Junior's hunting photo as part of they were

1242
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: they did their best, They did their best. Um My god,

1243
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 1: it's so funny. It's never not funny. This is a

1244
01:12:39,320 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 1: fun and uplifting note to end this episode On Yeah,

1245
01:12:42,920 --> 01:12:48,200
Speaker 1: check out our Paul Ryan TikTok, where used one of

1246
01:12:48,240 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 1: those AI bots to make uncomfortable, erotic videos of Paul

1247
01:12:54,600 --> 01:12:58,320
Speaker 1: Ryan filating himself with a bull whip while standing on

1248
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 1: top of a Dodge Dark with that oh no, oh

1249
01:13:02,320 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 1: no song going in the background doing oh no, oh no,

1250
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: that one. I don't need to sing an you know it.

1251
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:16,960
Speaker 1: And we're done. Oh, We're done, We're done. Behind the

1252
01:13:17,040 --> 01:13:20,000
Speaker 1: Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. For more

1253
01:13:20,040 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media

1254
01:13:23,160 --> 01:13:25,760
Speaker 1: dot com, or check us out on the I Heart

1255
01:13:25,840 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.