WEBVTT - S3:EP 8 - The One Thing 0:00:08.240 --> 0:00:12.360 It's twenty fourteen, back before Victor's arrest. The manhunt is 0:00:12.400 --> 0:00:17.480 still underway. Lindsay's desperate to get Victor found, and she's 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:21.160 agreed to a TV appearance. A camera zooms in as 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:24.360 a glass like wall moves apart to reveal Doctor Phil, 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:29.240 the psychologist turned TV host. Doctor Phil walks on stage, 0:00:29.240 --> 0:00:31.400 waving at a studio audience, and he points to a 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.599 massive screen. It shows a video collage of Lindsay as 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:34.960 a kid. 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:40.800 Take a look at Lindsay in this video. She's laughing, playing, 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:44.879 having a good time with her family. But just a 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:48.400 few years later, at the young age of thirteen, she 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.080 says her life would take a tragic turn and she 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:54.560 would become a maiden. 0:00:55.880 --> 0:00:59.040 A photo flashes of her and Victor and the other maidens. 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:03.160 Phil circles their faces with a digital pointer as he talks. 0:01:04.000 --> 0:01:09.679 And when I say maiden, you have no idea what 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.440 that is going to lead to, because this man right 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:16.559 here was a leader of a religious organization. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.679 A pre recorded summary of Lindsay's story plays out for 0:01:20.760 --> 0:01:25.600 dramatic effect. At the end, Lindsay is suddenly on stage, 0:01:25.800 --> 0:01:30.560 sitting in a chair. She knows what's coming. She was 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:34.120 invited here to confront her father on stage in front 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:51.440 of all of America. 0:01:52.720 --> 0:01:53.640 From her Cocoa. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:57.040 Punch and iHeart podcasts, This is the Turning River Road, 0:01:57.920 --> 0:01:59.200 I Am Erica Lance. 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:04.840 And I'm a Lance Lesser, Part eight, The One Thing. 0:02:11.040 --> 0:02:12.880 There was a time when Lindsay thought she might be 0:02:12.919 --> 0:02:16.200 able to repair things with her dad. Her mom was 0:02:16.240 --> 0:02:19.200 a lost cause, she'd given up on that relationship when 0:02:19.200 --> 0:02:25.520 Peggy refused to accept what Victor had done to her. Meanwhile, 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.720 her dad was supportive. He said he would talk to police. 0:02:29.880 --> 0:02:31.920 We listened to a recording of him talking to the 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:36.560 Sheriff's office. He corroborated stories Lindsay had told, stories about 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:39.760 times she tried to leave the Maidens, about how Victor 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.720 sat Lindsay's parents down to tell them he might have 0:02:42.800 --> 0:02:46.320 sex with her someday. But once the FBI got involved, 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.240 Lindsay says her dad backed off and wouldn't help anymore. 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:53.399 The two of them stopped talking. She says he would 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:56.040 write her letters and leave her voicemails trying to connect. 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:02.760 I can't live without you, he'd say. 0:03:00.639 --> 0:03:03.560 I need you to forgive me. I can't live without 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:07.000 you forgiving me. And it seemed to be all about him. 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:11.600 It was this constant need for me to love him 0:03:11.639 --> 0:03:15.000 and forgive him when I just needed to continue to 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:16.440 process and try to heal. 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:21.880 When Doctor Phil's production reached out to Lindsay, she thought 0:03:22.240 --> 0:03:24.800 maybe this might help her forgive her dad or heal 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:27.920 in some way. Not to mention it might help catch Victor, 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.320 who was still on the run at that point, so 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.239 now her dad. Carmen sat across from her on Doctor 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:37.560 Phil's stage in a suit and tie. In the video, 0:03:37.720 --> 0:03:40.520 he doesn't seem to speak directly to Lindsay at first. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.760 It feels like he's focused on defending himself. Sometimes he 0:03:44.800 --> 0:03:46.840 closes his eyes for a moment while he talks. 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.680 I feel overwhelmed. It's been a year since we've seen 0:03:52.720 --> 0:03:56.000 each other, and during that time, there's not a day 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:59.640 goes by that I don't count the cost of realizing that. 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:06.000 I take my full accountability and responsibility for what had 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:06.680 taken place. 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:13.120 But you really don't, because you tell her that you 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:15.840 didn't know what was going on at the time. 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:20.120 Right correct Throughout the segment, Doctor Phil is quick to 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.640 intervene and Pinkarmen to the wall. It's less a conversation 0:04:23.760 --> 0:04:28.040 than an interrogation. The mission is clear to hold Karmen accountable. 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.839 Lindsay's extremely upset. It's painful to watch. 0:04:32.880 --> 0:04:36.200 I don't understand why you keep saying you didn't know 0:04:36.279 --> 0:04:40.880 what happened, and the way your family has treated me 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.480 has been so awful. People telling me I need to 0:04:43.520 --> 0:04:45.840 stop playing the victim and become a survivor. And I 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:47.520 know I still have a lot to grow, but I 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:48.480 am a survivor. 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.560 I had asked two years ago for forgiveness, and you 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:54.880 told me that you don't know if you could forgive me. 0:04:56.800 --> 0:05:00.000 But you still don't own this till today, though, do you. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.160 The tension comes down to this. Carmen says he's accountable, 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:12.520 he's responsible, but he also says he didn't know back 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:16.039 then that Victor was abusing Lindsay, and that's the trouble 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:16.800 or part of it. 0:05:17.880 --> 0:05:19.039 Did he know or not? 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:26.960 Doctor Phil plasters excerpts of police reports on a large screen. 0:05:27.520 --> 0:05:31.520 He's trying to demonstrate how Carmen keeps contradicting himself that 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:33.920 sometimes he told police he did know what was going 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:36.760 on back then while it was happening, but he felt 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:37.800 too much pressure. 0:05:37.440 --> 0:05:38.120 To do anything. 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.760 He didn't want to become an outcast and lose everything. 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.520 And at other times Carmen said he didn't know back then, 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.000 Doctor Phil tells Carmen that he's talking out of both 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:48.839 sides of his mouth. 0:05:51.880 --> 0:05:54.240 All Right, I give you my daughter, but not my blessings. 0:05:54.560 --> 0:05:57.200 You can have her, but I don't bless it. What 0:05:57.200 --> 0:05:58.080 the hell does that mean? 0:05:58.800 --> 0:06:01.799 My perspective was that she was serving in the church. 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:04.200 I didn't know all those other things were happening. 0:06:04.640 --> 0:06:08.120 If somebody came to you and said I was fourteen 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:11.160 at the time at that time, you really thought if 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:12.839 he was bringing it up then that he would wait 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:13.800 till I was legal. 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.320 This whole scene has clearly built her entertainment and not 0:06:18.360 --> 0:06:22.000 for Lindsay's well being. But still, and I can't believe 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.960 I'm going to say this. Watching it, I felt like, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.760 go doctor Phil. No one seems to be sticking up 0:06:28.760 --> 0:06:31.840 for Lindsay except doctor Phil, of all people. 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.080 My biggest mistake was to trust the wrong man. I 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.200 still didn't give a blessing. But all of her indications, 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:41.279 all of her notes and things that were telling me 0:06:41.360 --> 0:06:43.120 that she was enjoying where she was. 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:44.920 She was with the child. 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.160 In the end, Carmen keeps saying the same thing. He's sorry, 0:06:49.680 --> 0:06:53.080 but he also didn't know. Lindsay looks at her dad 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:55.880 and says, at this point in my life, I don't 0:06:55.880 --> 0:07:00.880 want you in it. Aylan and I watched in silence 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:02.040 until the end of the video. 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:09.200 Well, I think it's just really sad. I mean, I 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.800 bet it's so frustrating for Lindsay. Her dad is half 0:07:12.880 --> 0:07:17.000 saying sorry, but isn't actually owning up to what he did. 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:21.480 I think it shows how different apologies have such different impacts. 0:07:22.200 --> 0:07:27.400 I mean, she feels completely unheard, completely unseen, completely invalidated, 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:32.640 completely uncared for. He has apologized, but he needs to 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.720 be all over himself apologizing and validating her. I mean, 0:07:36.840 --> 0:07:39.240 used to be a therapist when you were treating survivors 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:41.680 of sexual assault. Is this the kind of thing you'd 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:42.160 see a lot? 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.760 I mean, I feel like this type of dynamic is 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:51.080 really common where people who are close to the situation 0:07:51.960 --> 0:07:54.080 don't want to admit that they were a part of it. 0:07:55.920 --> 0:07:59.600 What can be so damaging about childhood sexual abuse is 0:07:59.640 --> 0:08:03.560 not just the act itself, it's the rippling effects of 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:07.760 that abuse, whether it's feeling like all their relationships in 0:08:07.800 --> 0:08:13.720 their family are ruined, feeling abandoned by those closest to them, 0:08:14.200 --> 0:08:17.320 feeling like I have no one to talk about this 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:22.040 with because also society doesn't like to hear about it. 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:27.280 And what Lindsay feels. I think maybe her greatest heartbreak 0:08:27.360 --> 0:08:30.920 these days is how many people did not stand with her. 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:36.360 And it is telling that Lindsay is completely disconnected from 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.760 her family. Now they can probably say, oh, that's Lindsay's choice, 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.400 but she's had to do that because of their reactions, 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.600 because so many of her family members literally wrote letters 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:49.080 supporting Victor Bernard. 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:55.040 Yeah, and it's cloaked in this concept of forgiveness. It's true, 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:58.520 I get it. For some forgiveness can be very healing, 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.880 but it's also so kind of like what happens when 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:09.440 you're pushing your choice to value forgiveness above everything else 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.400 on somebody else. Again, I think every situation is different, 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:19.120 but there might be cases where forgiveness actually isn't the 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.640 most psychologically healthy thing. And I just remember as a 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:28.800 kid going to church, always hearing that forgiveness will allow 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.960 you to move on. Forgiveness is the only thing that 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:38.599 will allow you to get past something that's painful or torturous, 0:09:38.640 --> 0:09:42.680 you know, and it's like not necessarily. Yeah, just because 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:47.880 you don't forgive somebody doesn't mean you can't move on. 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.800 And I remember I even got trained by probably one 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:57.679 of the most famous psychologists in evidence based trauma treatment, 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:03.960 and all the time she actually would encourage patience to 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:11.080 have an attitude of that person is evil, even encourage 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:14.320 that kind of language, you know, like this person is 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.480 just evil, they don't deserve my time, screw them, screw them. 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.520 And this is like one of the leaders of trauma 0:10:23.559 --> 0:10:28.040 treatment in the world. I'm not saying she was saying 0:10:28.120 --> 0:10:31.080 you should do that for everybody. Different people will process 0:10:31.120 --> 0:10:35.960 their traumas differently. For someone else, maybe forgiveness is reparative, 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:41.520 but I'm just saying, like, it's not for everybody. I 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.920 never really put that together, the forgiveness thing along with 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:46.280 that training before. 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:53.480 That's mind blowing to me because it shows how pushing forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, 0:10:54.360 --> 0:11:01.600 love your perpetrator, love your perpetrator, how incredibly damaging that 0:11:01.679 --> 0:11:02.000 can be. 0:11:08.120 --> 0:11:10.360 This is also why I think it's so important to 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:15.680 tell and retell these types of stories, because if we don't, 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:26.840 then we don't learn from them. Maybe even more importantly, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:31.080 I think we need to take the time to listen 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.000 to and respect, maybe even forget the learn from, just 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.280 even listen to and acknowledge, and give the time and 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:42.080 space for processing things that have happened. 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.440 We reached out to Lindsay's dad, Carmen Tornambi, but he 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:07.920 didn't want to talk to us for the show. 0:12:08.880 --> 0:12:10.319 He did text us. 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:12.480 He told us he didn't know why we want to 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.280 open old wounds that are trying to heal. He said, 0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:19.480 I was not diligent enough to perceive what was going on, 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.080 and I am sorry for that. Because of that, I 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:24.120 take all the blame on myself and lay it on 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.800 no one else. I have to live with that the 0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:44.200 rest of my life. But I thank God for his forgiveness. 0:12:45.160 --> 0:12:48.320 Around the same time Lindsay was on Doctor Phil, Kristip 0:12:48.400 --> 0:12:51.480 was in Washington State grappling with her own relationship with 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:55.880 her parents entered connection to River Road. While Lindsay pulled 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.600 further and further away, Kristip was getting sucked in deeper. 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:06.040 As a child and as a young teenager, young adult, 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.240 I did believe he was the man of God. I mean, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.000 he taught us the Bible. He would walk into a 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.439 room and his presence commanded respect, and I respected him. 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:20.080 He was special to me. Absolutely, I loved him. Victor 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:25.800 was always very kind to me, like very very kind 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.600 to me, which I know is not everybody's experience. 0:13:30.400 --> 0:13:32.480 Do you have a memory of him being kind to 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:33.679 you specifically? 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.880 So many, so many. 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.680 He taught me how to drive when I was seventeen 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:43.520 years old, and he was very kind about it, like 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:47.480 he was not mean or intimidating. He taught me how 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:49.120 to take the twists and turns in the road and 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:50.640 to not like take them too abruptly and kind of 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:53.320 start leaning into them beforehand, and when to start slowing 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.800 down for a stop sign, and when to put your 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.120 turn signal on when you're getting off the freeway, and 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:01.520 just different stuff like that, stuff that I still have 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:03.080 to utilize to this tape. 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:06.200 And so there are like echoes of him even now 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:06.960 in your life. 0:14:07.760 --> 0:14:10.880 There always will be, there, always will be. 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.120 Victor had been kind to Christa, but he was also 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:22.240 the man who once spat in her mother's face and rage, 0:14:22.840 --> 0:14:25.040 the man who led her mom to burn her books 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:27.720 in a wood stove to rid the family of darkness, 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:34.080 while Christa begged her to stop. And now she believed 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.440 he was the man who had raped young girls in 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:40.680 their small church community, women Krista knew and had grown 0:14:40.760 --> 0:14:43.320 up with. Women she now watched on the news in 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.040 secret on the tablet she kept in her room against 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:50.400 the rules. And even though Victor was like family to her, 0:14:50.880 --> 0:14:52.880 she also believed in another truth. 0:14:53.720 --> 0:14:56.400 Bad people do good things, good people do bad things, 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.920 Like it's he did a good thing for me. 0:15:03.440 --> 0:15:06.320 And unlike what she'd believed since she was born, she 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.640 started to think that Victor was not a good person 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.240 who sometimes did bad things. Maybe he was a bad 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:20.480 person who had done some good things for her. Now 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.320 she had to decide what was meant for her life 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:27.800 because the person her whole existence and belief system revolved around, 0:15:28.360 --> 0:15:32.400 the person her whole family followed, was not the man 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:42.840 she thought he was. Krista was now in her early 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:46.560 twenties living in a house in Spokane, Washington, a house 0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:49.560 full of River Road members and higher ups like Jan 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:50.360 and her husband. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.080 Nobody knew that I had this tablet. Nobody knew that 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.760 I could get my information on my own. So when 0:16:00.800 --> 0:16:06.280 the media was reporting a lot about River Road Fellowship 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:10.640 and Victor, I read everything everything I could find There 0:16:10.720 --> 0:16:13.440 was so much that came out in the news. During 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.120 that time. A news crew came to our house. Everybody 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:21.040 shut the blinds and locked the doors. I was there 0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:22.720 for that, like peering out the window. 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:25.760 A white van showed up down the street from the 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.080 house in Spokane. Krista watched it through the blinds. She 0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.760 was pretty sure it was law enforcement watching them. Someone 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:37.440 seemed to think Victor was a bad person, and now 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:41.520 Christi says she did too, but that was not the 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:44.280 norm around her, at least not as far as she 0:16:44.320 --> 0:16:44.800 could tell. 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:51.760 I was around Lindsay's family, mom's sisters when Lindsay came 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:57.160 out to the public. Everybody in the church, everybody in 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.840 that area very much had their heads in the sand. 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.240 As far as Victor being a criminal and being a rapist, 0:17:05.440 --> 0:17:10.800 that couldn't have possibly happened. I know, for me, and 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.280 I'm sure for Lindsay's mom and her sisters. We were 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:17.479 basically told what to say, how to respond if we 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:19.359 were approached by the police or the media. 0:17:20.800 --> 0:17:22.120 How are you told to respond? 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:26.399 Well, I was told to respond no comment. If the 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:29.200 media approached me, to walk away. I was told not 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:34.879 to talk to the police. But at that point I 0:17:34.960 --> 0:17:37.800 knew that if I was approached that I was going 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:42.080 to comment because I needed help getting out and I 0:17:42.080 --> 0:17:45.080 didn't know how to get out. And I was like, 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:48.280 if somebody from the media or the police are to 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.920 approach me, I'm going to ask for help. This is 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.760 a cult and I need help get me out of this. 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.359 Before any of this happened, before Victor was arrested, it 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.240 seemed like Krista might finally get to taste the outside world. 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:19.240 It was back when River Road first moved to their 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.680 headquarters from Minnesota to Washington State, back before Lindsay went public. 0:18:24.640 --> 0:18:27.679 Christa estimates there were still more than a hundred people 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:32.320 following Victor. Her family settled in Bellingham, Washington, one of 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:36.600 the cities that had a cluster of followers. Christa didn't 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.679 live on a farm commune anymore. She didn't have to 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.000 wear a prairie dress. She and the other cult members 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.360 lived in regular houses in regular neighborhoods, with neighbors who 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:53.000 had no idea what was really going on inside. She 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:56.959 even tried to go to college. In River Road, boys 0:18:57.040 --> 0:19:01.840 sometimes went to college, never the girls, but Krista enrolled 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.159 in a community college in Bellingham and decided to major 0:19:05.200 --> 0:19:08.120 in English, read all the books she loved without any 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.560 threat of someone ripping them out of her hands and 0:19:10.640 --> 0:19:12.119 throwing them into a wood stove. 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:14.080 She thought she could be a. 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:19.400 Professor or maybe go to law school, and that excited her. 0:19:20.359 --> 0:19:24.800 Krista was friendly and personable. She made friends fast, the 0:19:24.840 --> 0:19:27.840 first friends she'd ever made who hadn't also grown up 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:31.280 in a cult. Meeting new people felt like a novelty 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:34.479 to Krista, since she never really had the opportunity before. 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.960 But River Road leaders didn't like what Krista was up to. 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:44.800 They suggested she drop out, a suggestion that Kristin knew 0:19:44.840 --> 0:19:48.280 was a requirement. I knew it wasn't completely up to me. 0:19:48.400 --> 0:19:50.240 I knew if I said no, that it would be 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:54.200 a problem. They told her she would move from Bellingham, Washington, 0:19:54.320 --> 0:19:58.280 to Spokane, a city six hours inland, another pocket of 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.480 River Road Fellowship believers life to there. 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:05.160 That was the place that they brought the younger people 0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:11.480 to be essentially fixed. Anybody who was being seduced by 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:15.080 the worlds or being corrupted by the worlds, they shipped 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:19.719 him off to Spokane to be basically re educated and 0:20:20.200 --> 0:20:24.159 re manipulated, rebrainwashed, so that was what happened to me. 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:28.200 In Spokane, Krista moved in with Jan and her husband. 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.640 It was Jan who'd put Krista on extreme diets when 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:34.800 she was eleven that left her hungry every night, what 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.679 Christa called the worst year of her life. They grilled 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:41.680 her on her personal life when she arrived. Do your 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.720 friends from Bellingham still reach out to you? They asked, Oh, well, 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.320 then you'll probably have to change your phone number. An 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:51.640 elder told her from now on, her time with her 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.600 parents would be limited to even though they were still 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.919 faithful River Road followers. Christa got a couple of jobs 0:20:58.960 --> 0:21:02.240 to make money, one at Macy's and one at Baskin Robbins. 0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:05.639 After work, she came home for evening fellowships with the 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.879 other church members. But then one day Victor Bernard was 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:13.159 on the news and Lindsey and Jess were talking about 0:21:13.160 --> 0:21:16.679 what he'd done to them. What were you guys told 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:18.200 about what was happening? 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:23.080 So I think, you know, in order to answer this adequately, 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.879 I need to back up a little bit. So throughout 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:30.560 the time at the Shepherd's Camp, you know, Victor had 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.200 we called it, revealed himself as an apostle, which apostle 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:38.679 is somebody who is like a step under Jesus Christ. 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:41.600 He called himself an apostle. He started to kind of 0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.200 emulate the Apostle Paul in the way that he spoke 0:21:45.280 --> 0:21:47.320 and the way that he wrote. 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.560 Paul was the apostle who traveled around after Jesus' death 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:54.920 spreading his teachings. Victor tried to emulate Paul in his clothing, 0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:57.320 his travel habits, his writing style. 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.680 The Apostle Paul ended up in pro spent the rest 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:04.320 of his life in prison in Italy, in this house 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:09.280 with a soldier that kept him. So Victor he would 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:11.760 start talking about, like if he went to prison and 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:14.080 they could put him in prison for preaching the gospel. 0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:16.280 And in my mind, I'm like, we live in America, 0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:19.199 that's never going to happen. As a child, I'm like, 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:22.840 we have freedom of religion. We can practice however we choose, Like, 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:26.600 why would you go to prison? So it was very 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.720 much on the forefront of our minds that Victor could 0:22:29.760 --> 0:22:33.480 go to prison, and that it was for his status 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:37.200 in this world, and that it was for preaching the gospel. 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:46.640 So when it happened, when it actually happened, the whole 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:50.000 church was like, oh my god, it's happening. We're being persecuted. 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:51.600 This is what we've been preparing for. 0:22:53.840 --> 0:22:56.320 Looking back, what do you make of that now that 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:01.160 Victor was almost preparing everyone for him to go to prison, 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:03.080 do you think that was strategic? 0:23:04.280 --> 0:23:07.359 Oh my god, yes, oh absolutely. 0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:10.920 He knew he was doing something illegal, and he probably 0:23:11.000 --> 0:23:13.480 knew that if he was caught he would go to prison, 0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:17.840 so in order to cover his behind and make it 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:22.760 sound more righteous and holy than actually what was happening. Yeah, 0:23:22.800 --> 0:23:26.399 of course, it was a strategic, very strategic manipulation. 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:30.840 So for some of them, Victor getting arrested may not 0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:32.360 have deterred their belief in him. 0:23:32.800 --> 0:23:33.760 It strengthened it. 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:37.560 What he'd predicted was coming true. 0:23:37.720 --> 0:23:39.840 I don't know how many people actually believed that. I 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:44.800 certainly didn't, but I tried to play the part, because 0:23:44.920 --> 0:23:45.399 what else. 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:45.840 Are you going to do. 0:24:05.800 --> 0:24:08.760 Christa waited for the police or a journalist to approach her, 0:24:09.320 --> 0:24:12.200 for her chance to say, I'm in a cult, help 0:24:12.280 --> 0:24:15.720 me get out, but no one did, and over the 0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:18.959 year that followed that first news report, the church leader's 0:24:19.000 --> 0:24:23.720 control squeezed down even tighter. Christa was moved again, as 0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:26.040 always River Road kept its members on the move, not 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:29.840 able to fully settle in This new place housed more 0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:33.000 of the church leaders in addition to Jan and her husband. 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:36.760 Now they lived with Victor's wife and Lindsay's mom, Peggy, 0:24:37.400 --> 0:24:39.800 the mother of the woman who was now betraying them all, 0:24:39.840 --> 0:24:43.840 it seemed to some of them on national television. In 0:24:43.880 --> 0:24:46.360 the new house, Christa didn't have a private room anymore, 0:24:47.040 --> 0:24:49.919 so she had even less time alone. She shared a 0:24:49.960 --> 0:24:52.160 small room with another woman about her age. 0:24:52.560 --> 0:24:54.359 It was a tiny little room and they got us 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:57.000 tiny little girl bunk beds, and the whole room was 0:24:57.119 --> 0:24:59.280 decorated like it was for five year olds. Like this 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:02.880 room was insulting to the fact that we were both 0:25:02.880 --> 0:25:03.520 in our twenties. 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:09.640 In Victor's absence, the directions and rules were the discretion 0:25:09.760 --> 0:25:13.560 of Jan and her husband, Ricky, for complicated reasons we 0:25:13.600 --> 0:25:15.960 won't get into here. Those are not their real names. 0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:20.000 For a long time, Jan played a central role in 0:25:20.040 --> 0:25:22.159 coaxing the young girls of the group to bend to 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:26.040 Victor and his desires. Now, she and Ricky and the 0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:30.080 other leaders began to control Christa's finances. At first, it 0:25:30.119 --> 0:25:32.639 was pitched as help, which didn't seem like such a 0:25:32.640 --> 0:25:35.639 bad thing, but help would imply that she had a choice, 0:25:36.080 --> 0:25:37.440 and she really didn't. 0:25:37.760 --> 0:25:40.600 They made me log into my online banking to see 0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:43.240 where I was spending my money. That's when it came 0:25:43.240 --> 0:25:46.159 out that I'd had the tablet because there were some 0:25:46.480 --> 0:25:49.760 charges on there for like small charges for like Google 0:25:49.840 --> 0:25:52.040 and stuff like that. At first, I was like, oh 0:25:52.040 --> 0:25:53.480 my god, I have no idea what these are. And 0:25:53.520 --> 0:25:55.679 then they were like, come on, Kristin. So I had 0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:59.399 to tell them about the tablet. So that was a 0:25:59.400 --> 0:26:03.040