1 00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 1: It's twenty fourteen, back before Victor's arrest. The manhunt is 2 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: still underway. Lindsay's desperate to get Victor found, and she's 3 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,160 Speaker 1: agreed to a TV appearance. A camera zooms in as 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: a glass like wall moves apart to reveal Doctor Phil, 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: the psychologist turned TV host. Doctor Phil walks on stage, 6 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: waving at a studio audience, and he points to a 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:34,599 Speaker 1: massive screen. It shows a video collage of Lindsay as 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: a kid. 9 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:40,800 Speaker 2: Take a look at Lindsay in this video. She's laughing, playing, 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,879 Speaker 2: having a good time with her family. But just a 11 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:48,400 Speaker 2: few years later, at the young age of thirteen, she 12 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 2: says her life would take a tragic turn and she 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 2: would become a maiden. 14 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: A photo flashes of her and Victor and the other maidens. 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: Phil circles their faces with a digital pointer as he talks. 16 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 2: And when I say maiden, you have no idea what 17 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: that is going to lead to, because this man right 18 00:01:13,520 --> 00:01:16,559 Speaker 2: here was a leader of a religious organization. 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,679 Speaker 1: A pre recorded summary of Lindsay's story plays out for 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: dramatic effect. At the end, Lindsay is suddenly on stage, 21 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 1: sitting in a chair. She knows what's coming. She was 22 00:01:30,560 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: invited here to confront her father on stage in front 23 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:51,440 Speaker 1: of all of America. 24 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 3: From her Cocoa. 25 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: Punch and iHeart podcasts, This is the Turning River Road, 26 00:01:57,920 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: I Am Erica Lance. 27 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 3: And I'm a Lance Lesser, Part eight, The One Thing. 28 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: There was a time when Lindsay thought she might be 29 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: able to repair things with her dad. Her mom was 30 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: a lost cause, she'd given up on that relationship when 31 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 1: Peggy refused to accept what Victor had done to her. Meanwhile, 32 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: her dad was supportive. He said he would talk to police. 33 00:02:29,880 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: We listened to a recording of him talking to the 34 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: Sheriff's office. He corroborated stories Lindsay had told, stories about 35 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: times she tried to leave the Maidens, about how Victor 36 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:42,720 Speaker 1: sat Lindsay's parents down to tell them he might have 37 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: sex with her someday. But once the FBI got involved, 38 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 1: Lindsay says her dad backed off and wouldn't help anymore. 39 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,399 Speaker 1: The two of them stopped talking. She says he would 40 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: write her letters and leave her voicemails trying to connect. 41 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: I can't live without you, he'd say. 42 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 4: I need you to forgive me. I can't live without 43 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 4: you forgiving me. And it seemed to be all about him. 44 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 4: It was this constant need for me to love him 45 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 4: and forgive him when I just needed to continue to 46 00:03:15,040 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 4: process and try to heal. 47 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: When Doctor Phil's production reached out to Lindsay, she thought 48 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: maybe this might help her forgive her dad or heal 49 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: in some way. Not to mention it might help catch Victor, 50 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,320 Speaker 1: who was still on the run at that point, so 51 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: now her dad. Carmen sat across from her on Doctor 52 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: Phil's stage in a suit and tie. In the video, 53 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: he doesn't seem to speak directly to Lindsay at first. 54 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: It feels like he's focused on defending himself. Sometimes he 55 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: closes his eyes for a moment while he talks. 56 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 5: I feel overwhelmed. It's been a year since we've seen 57 00:03:52,720 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 5: each other, and during that time, there's not a day 58 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 5: goes by that I don't count the cost of realizing that. 59 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 5: I take my full accountability and responsibility for what had 60 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 5: taken place. 61 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 2: But you really don't, because you tell her that you 62 00:04:13,320 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: didn't know what was going on at the time. 63 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: Right correct Throughout the segment, Doctor Phil is quick to 64 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: intervene and Pinkarmen to the wall. It's less a conversation 65 00:04:23,760 --> 00:04:28,040 Speaker 1: than an interrogation. The mission is clear to hold Karmen accountable. 66 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: Lindsay's extremely upset. It's painful to watch. 67 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 6: I don't understand why you keep saying you didn't know 68 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 6: what happened, and the way your family has treated me 69 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:43,480 Speaker 6: has been so awful. People telling me I need to 70 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:45,840 Speaker 6: stop playing the victim and become a survivor. And I 71 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,520 Speaker 6: know I still have a lot to grow, but I 72 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 6: am a survivor. 73 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 5: I had asked two years ago for forgiveness, and you 74 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 5: told me that you don't know if you could forgive me. 75 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: But you still don't own this till today, though, do you. 76 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: The tension comes down to this. Carmen says he's accountable, 77 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 1: he's responsible, but he also says he didn't know back 78 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: then that Victor was abusing Lindsay, and that's the trouble 79 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: or part of it. 80 00:05:17,880 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 3: Did he know or not? 81 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 1: Doctor Phil plasters excerpts of police reports on a large screen. 82 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: He's trying to demonstrate how Carmen keeps contradicting himself that 83 00:05:31,640 --> 00:05:33,920 Speaker 1: sometimes he told police he did know what was going 84 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 1: on back then while it was happening, but he felt 85 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:37,800 Speaker 1: too much pressure. 86 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 3: To do anything. 87 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 1: He didn't want to become an outcast and lose everything. 88 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: And at other times Carmen said he didn't know back then, 89 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,000 Speaker 1: Doctor Phil tells Carmen that he's talking out of both 90 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: sides of his mouth. 91 00:05:51,880 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 2: All Right, I give you my daughter, but not my blessings. 92 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 2: You can have her, but I don't bless it. What 93 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 2: the hell does that mean? 94 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,799 Speaker 5: My perspective was that she was serving in the church. 95 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 5: I didn't know all those other things were happening. 96 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 4: If somebody came to you and said I was fourteen 97 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 4: at the time at that time, you really thought if 98 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:12,839 Speaker 4: he was bringing it up then that he would wait 99 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 4: till I was legal. 100 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 1: This whole scene has clearly built her entertainment and not 101 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: for Lindsay's well being. But still, and I can't believe 102 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:24,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to say this. Watching it, I felt like, 103 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: go doctor Phil. No one seems to be sticking up 104 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: for Lindsay except doctor Phil, of all people. 105 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 5: My biggest mistake was to trust the wrong man. I 106 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 5: still didn't give a blessing. But all of her indications, 107 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,279 Speaker 5: all of her notes and things that were telling me 108 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 5: that she was enjoying where she was. 109 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 2: She was with the child. 110 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: In the end, Carmen keeps saying the same thing. He's sorry, 111 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: but he also didn't know. Lindsay looks at her dad 112 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 1: and says, at this point in my life, I don't 113 00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: want you in it. Aylan and I watched in silence 114 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:02,040 Speaker 1: until the end of the video. 115 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 7: Well, I think it's just really sad. I mean, I 116 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 7: bet it's so frustrating for Lindsay. Her dad is half 117 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 7: saying sorry, but isn't actually owning up to what he did. 118 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 1: I think it shows how different apologies have such different impacts. 119 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: I mean, she feels completely unheard, completely unseen, completely invalidated, 120 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: completely uncared for. He has apologized, but he needs to 121 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 1: be all over himself apologizing and validating her. I mean, 122 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: used to be a therapist when you were treating survivors 123 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: of sexual assault. Is this the kind of thing you'd 124 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:42,160 Speaker 1: see a lot? 125 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 7: I mean, I feel like this type of dynamic is 126 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 7: really common where people who are close to the situation 127 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 7: don't want to admit that they were a part of it. 128 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 7: What can be so damaging about childhood sexual abuse is 129 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 7: not just the act itself, it's the rippling effects of 130 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 7: that abuse, whether it's feeling like all their relationships in 131 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 7: their family are ruined, feeling abandoned by those closest to them, 132 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 7: feeling like I have no one to talk about this 133 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 7: with because also society doesn't like to hear about it. 134 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: And what Lindsay feels. I think maybe her greatest heartbreak 135 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: these days is how many people did not stand with her. 136 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: And it is telling that Lindsay is completely disconnected from 137 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: her family. Now they can probably say, oh, that's Lindsay's choice, 138 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: but she's had to do that because of their reactions, 139 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: because so many of her family members literally wrote letters 140 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: supporting Victor Bernard. 141 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 7: Yeah, and it's cloaked in this concept of forgiveness. It's true, 142 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 7: I get it. For some forgiveness can be very healing, 143 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 7: but it's also so kind of like what happens when 144 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 7: you're pushing your choice to value forgiveness above everything else 145 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 7: on somebody else. Again, I think every situation is different, 146 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 7: but there might be cases where forgiveness actually isn't the 147 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 7: most psychologically healthy thing. And I just remember as a 148 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 7: kid going to church, always hearing that forgiveness will allow 149 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 7: you to move on. Forgiveness is the only thing that 150 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:38,599 Speaker 7: will allow you to get past something that's painful or torturous, 151 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 7: you know, and it's like not necessarily. Yeah, just because 152 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 7: you don't forgive somebody doesn't mean you can't move on. 153 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 7: And I remember I even got trained by probably one 154 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 7: of the most famous psychologists in evidence based trauma treatment, 155 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 7: and all the time she actually would encourage patience to 156 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 7: have an attitude of that person is evil, even encourage 157 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 7: that kind of language, you know, like this person is 158 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 7: just evil, they don't deserve my time, screw them, screw them. 159 00:10:20,160 --> 00:10:23,520 Speaker 7: And this is like one of the leaders of trauma 160 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 7: treatment in the world. I'm not saying she was saying 161 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 7: you should do that for everybody. Different people will process 162 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 7: their traumas differently. For someone else, maybe forgiveness is reparative, 163 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 7: but I'm just saying, like, it's not for everybody. I 164 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 7: never really put that together, the forgiveness thing along with 165 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 7: that training before. 166 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 1: That's mind blowing to me because it shows how pushing forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, forgive, 167 00:10:54,360 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 1: love your perpetrator, love your perpetrator, how incredibly damaging that 168 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 1: can be. 169 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 7: This is also why I think it's so important to 170 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:15,680 Speaker 7: tell and retell these types of stories, because if we don't, 171 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 7: then we don't learn from them. Maybe even more importantly, 172 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 7: I think we need to take the time to listen 173 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 7: to and respect, maybe even forget the learn from, just 174 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 7: even listen to and acknowledge, and give the time and 175 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,080 Speaker 7: space for processing things that have happened. 176 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: We reached out to Lindsay's dad, Carmen Tornambi, but he 177 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:07,920 Speaker 1: didn't want to talk to us for the show. 178 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 3: He did text us. 179 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: He told us he didn't know why we want to 180 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 1: open old wounds that are trying to heal. He said, 181 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: I was not diligent enough to perceive what was going on, 182 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: and I am sorry for that. Because of that, I 183 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: take all the blame on myself and lay it on 184 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: no one else. I have to live with that the 185 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: rest of my life. But I thank God for his forgiveness. 186 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 7: Around the same time Lindsay was on Doctor Phil, Kristip 187 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 7: was in Washington State grappling with her own relationship with 188 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 7: her parents entered connection to River Road. While Lindsay pulled 189 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 7: further and further away, Kristip was getting sucked in deeper. 190 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:06,040 Speaker 8: As a child and as a young teenager, young adult, 191 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 8: I did believe he was the man of God. I mean, 192 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 8: he taught us the Bible. He would walk into a 193 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 8: room and his presence commanded respect, and I respected him. 194 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 8: He was special to me. Absolutely, I loved him. Victor 195 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 8: was always very kind to me, like very very kind 196 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 8: to me, which I know is not everybody's experience. 197 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 7: Do you have a memory of him being kind to 198 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:33,679 Speaker 7: you specifically? 199 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 9: So many, so many. 200 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 8: He taught me how to drive when I was seventeen 201 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,520 Speaker 8: years old, and he was very kind about it, like 202 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 8: he was not mean or intimidating. He taught me how 203 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 8: to take the twists and turns in the road and 204 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:50,640 Speaker 8: to not like take them too abruptly and kind of 205 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 8: start leaning into them beforehand, and when to start slowing 206 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 8: down for a stop sign, and when to put your 207 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 8: turn signal on when you're getting off the freeway, and 208 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:01,520 Speaker 8: just different stuff like that, stuff that I still have 209 00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 8: to utilize to this tape. 210 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,200 Speaker 7: And so there are like echoes of him even now 211 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:06,960 Speaker 7: in your life. 212 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 8: There always will be, there, always will be. 213 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:19,120 Speaker 7: Victor had been kind to Christa, but he was also 214 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,240 Speaker 7: the man who once spat in her mother's face and rage, 215 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 7: the man who led her mom to burn her books 216 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 7: in a wood stove to rid the family of darkness, 217 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 7: while Christa begged her to stop. And now she believed 218 00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 7: he was the man who had raped young girls in 219 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 7: their small church community, women Krista knew and had grown 220 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 7: up with. Women she now watched on the news in 221 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 7: secret on the tablet she kept in her room against 222 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 7: the rules. And even though Victor was like family to her, 223 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 7: she also believed in another truth. 224 00:14:53,720 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 8: Bad people do good things, good people do bad things, 225 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,920 Speaker 8: Like it's he did a good thing for me. 226 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,320 Speaker 7: And unlike what she'd believed since she was born, she 227 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 7: started to think that Victor was not a good person 228 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 7: who sometimes did bad things. Maybe he was a bad 229 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 7: person who had done some good things for her. Now 230 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 7: she had to decide what was meant for her life 231 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 7: because the person her whole existence and belief system revolved around, 232 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 7: the person her whole family followed, was not the man 233 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 7: she thought he was. Krista was now in her early 234 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 7: twenties living in a house in Spokane, Washington, a house 235 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 7: full of River Road members and higher ups like Jan 236 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:50,360 Speaker 7: and her husband. 237 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 8: Nobody knew that I had this tablet. Nobody knew that 238 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 8: I could get my information on my own. So when 239 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 8: the media was reporting a lot about River Road Fellowship 240 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 8: and Victor, I read everything everything I could find There 241 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,440 Speaker 8: was so much that came out in the news. During 242 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 8: that time. A news crew came to our house. Everybody 243 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:21,040 Speaker 8: shut the blinds and locked the doors. I was there 244 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:22,720 Speaker 8: for that, like peering out the window. 245 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 7: A white van showed up down the street from the 246 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 7: house in Spokane. Krista watched it through the blinds. She 247 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 7: was pretty sure it was law enforcement watching them. Someone 248 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 7: seemed to think Victor was a bad person, and now 249 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 7: Christi says she did too, but that was not the 250 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 7: norm around her, at least not as far as she 251 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:44,800 Speaker 7: could tell. 252 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 8: I was around Lindsay's family, mom's sisters when Lindsay came 253 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 8: out to the public. Everybody in the church, everybody in 254 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,840 Speaker 8: that area very much had their heads in the sand. 255 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 8: As far as Victor being a criminal and being a rapist, 256 00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 8: that couldn't have possibly happened. I know, for me, and 257 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,280 Speaker 8: I'm sure for Lindsay's mom and her sisters. We were 258 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 8: basically told what to say, how to respond if we 259 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,359 Speaker 8: were approached by the police or the media. 260 00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:22,120 Speaker 3: How are you told to respond? 261 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 8: Well, I was told to respond no comment. If the 262 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 8: media approached me, to walk away. I was told not 263 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 8: to talk to the police. But at that point I 264 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 8: knew that if I was approached that I was going 265 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 8: to comment because I needed help getting out and I 266 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 8: didn't know how to get out. And I was like, 267 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 8: if somebody from the media or the police are to 268 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 8: approach me, I'm going to ask for help. This is 269 00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 8: a cult and I need help get me out of this. 270 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:12,359 Speaker 7: Before any of this happened, before Victor was arrested, it 271 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 7: seemed like Krista might finally get to taste the outside world. 272 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 7: It was back when River Road first moved to their 273 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:23,680 Speaker 7: headquarters from Minnesota to Washington State, back before Lindsay went public. 274 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:27,679 Speaker 7: Christa estimates there were still more than a hundred people 275 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 7: following Victor. Her family settled in Bellingham, Washington, one of 276 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 7: the cities that had a cluster of followers. Christa didn't 277 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,679 Speaker 7: live on a farm commune anymore. She didn't have to 278 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 7: wear a prairie dress. She and the other cult members 279 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 7: lived in regular houses in regular neighborhoods, with neighbors who 280 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 7: had no idea what was really going on inside. She 281 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 7: even tried to go to college. In River Road, boys 282 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 7: sometimes went to college, never the girls, but Krista enrolled 283 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,159 Speaker 7: in a community college in Bellingham and decided to major 284 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,120 Speaker 7: in English, read all the books she loved without any 285 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,560 Speaker 7: threat of someone ripping them out of her hands and 286 00:19:10,640 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 7: throwing them into a wood stove. 287 00:19:13,080 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 3: She thought she could be a. 288 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 7: Professor or maybe go to law school, and that excited her. 289 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 7: Krista was friendly and personable. She made friends fast, the 290 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:27,840 Speaker 7: first friends she'd ever made who hadn't also grown up 291 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 7: in a cult. Meeting new people felt like a novelty 292 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:34,479 Speaker 7: to Krista, since she never really had the opportunity before. 293 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,960 Speaker 7: But River Road leaders didn't like what Krista was up to. 294 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 7: They suggested she drop out, a suggestion that Kristin knew 295 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 7: was a requirement. I knew it wasn't completely up to me. 296 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 7: I knew if I said no, that it would be 297 00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 7: a problem. They told her she would move from Bellingham, Washington, 298 00:19:54,320 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 7: to Spokane, a city six hours inland, another pocket of 299 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 7: River Road Fellowship believers life to there. 300 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 8: That was the place that they brought the younger people 301 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 8: to be essentially fixed. Anybody who was being seduced by 302 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 8: the worlds or being corrupted by the worlds, they shipped 303 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 8: him off to Spokane to be basically re educated and 304 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 8: re manipulated, rebrainwashed, so that was what happened to me. 305 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 7: In Spokane, Krista moved in with Jan and her husband. 306 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 7: It was Jan who'd put Krista on extreme diets when 307 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 7: she was eleven that left her hungry every night, what 308 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,679 Speaker 7: Christa called the worst year of her life. They grilled 309 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 7: her on her personal life when she arrived. Do your 310 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 7: friends from Bellingham still reach out to you? They asked, Oh, well, 311 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 7: then you'll probably have to change your phone number. An 312 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 7: elder told her from now on, her time with her 313 00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 7: parents would be limited to even though they were still 314 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:58,919 Speaker 7: faithful River Road followers. Christa got a couple of jobs 315 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 7: to make money, one at Macy's and one at Baskin Robbins. 316 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 7: After work, she came home for evening fellowships with the 317 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,879 Speaker 7: other church members. But then one day Victor Bernard was 318 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 7: on the news and Lindsey and Jess were talking about 319 00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 7: what he'd done to them. What were you guys told 320 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 7: about what was happening? 321 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 8: So I think, you know, in order to answer this adequately, 322 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 8: I need to back up a little bit. So throughout 323 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 8: the time at the Shepherd's Camp, you know, Victor had 324 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,200 Speaker 8: we called it, revealed himself as an apostle, which apostle 325 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 8: is somebody who is like a step under Jesus Christ. 326 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 8: He called himself an apostle. He started to kind of 327 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 8: emulate the Apostle Paul in the way that he spoke 328 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,320 Speaker 8: and the way that he wrote. 329 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 7: Paul was the apostle who traveled around after Jesus' death 330 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 7: spreading his teachings. Victor tried to emulate Paul in his clothing, 331 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 7: his travel habits, his writing style. 332 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 8: The Apostle Paul ended up in pro spent the rest 333 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 8: of his life in prison in Italy, in this house 334 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 8: with a soldier that kept him. So Victor he would 335 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 8: start talking about, like if he went to prison and 336 00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:14,080 Speaker 8: they could put him in prison for preaching the gospel. 337 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 8: And in my mind, I'm like, we live in America, 338 00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:19,199 Speaker 8: that's never going to happen. As a child, I'm like, 339 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 8: we have freedom of religion. We can practice however we choose, Like, 340 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 8: why would you go to prison? So it was very 341 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 8: much on the forefront of our minds that Victor could 342 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 8: go to prison, and that it was for his status 343 00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 8: in this world, and that it was for preaching the gospel. 344 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:46,640 Speaker 8: So when it happened, when it actually happened, the whole 345 00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 8: church was like, oh my god, it's happening. We're being persecuted. 346 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 8: This is what we've been preparing for. 347 00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 7: Looking back, what do you make of that now that 348 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 7: Victor was almost preparing everyone for him to go to prison, 349 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 7: do you think that was strategic? 350 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,359 Speaker 9: Oh my god, yes, oh absolutely. 351 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:10,920 Speaker 8: He knew he was doing something illegal, and he probably 352 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 8: knew that if he was caught he would go to prison, 353 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 8: so in order to cover his behind and make it 354 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 8: sound more righteous and holy than actually what was happening. Yeah, 355 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 8: of course, it was a strategic, very strategic manipulation. 356 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,840 Speaker 7: So for some of them, Victor getting arrested may not 357 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,360 Speaker 7: have deterred their belief in him. 358 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: It strengthened it. 359 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,560 Speaker 7: What he'd predicted was coming true. 360 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 8: I don't know how many people actually believed that. I 361 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 8: certainly didn't, but I tried to play the part, because 362 00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:45,399 Speaker 8: what else. 363 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:45,840 Speaker 9: Are you going to do. 364 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: Christa waited for the police or a journalist to approach her, 365 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: for her chance to say, I'm in a cult, help 366 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: me get out, but no one did, and over the 367 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,959 Speaker 1: year that followed that first news report, the church leader's 368 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: control squeezed down even tighter. Christa was moved again, as 369 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,040 Speaker 1: always River Road kept its members on the move, not 370 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: able to fully settle in This new place housed more 371 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: of the church leaders in addition to Jan and her husband. 372 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 1: Now they lived with Victor's wife and Lindsay's mom, Peggy, 373 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:39,800 Speaker 1: the mother of the woman who was now betraying them all, 374 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: it seemed to some of them on national television. In 375 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 1: the new house, Christa didn't have a private room anymore, 376 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,919 Speaker 1: so she had even less time alone. She shared a 377 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: small room with another woman about her age. 378 00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 8: It was a tiny little room and they got us 379 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 8: tiny little girl bunk beds, and the whole room was 380 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 8: decorated like it was for five year olds. Like this 381 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 8: room was insulting to the fact that we were both 382 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 8: in our twenties. 383 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 1: In Victor's absence, the directions and rules were the discretion 384 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: of Jan and her husband, Ricky, for complicated reasons we 385 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,960 Speaker 1: won't get into here. Those are not their real names. 386 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: For a long time, Jan played a central role in 387 00:25:20,040 --> 00:25:22,159 Speaker 1: coaxing the young girls of the group to bend to 388 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: Victor and his desires. Now, she and Ricky and the 389 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: other leaders began to control Christa's finances. At first, it 390 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: was pitched as help, which didn't seem like such a 391 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: bad thing, but help would imply that she had a choice, 392 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: and she really didn't. 393 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 8: They made me log into my online banking to see 394 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 8: where I was spending my money. That's when it came 395 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,159 Speaker 8: out that I'd had the tablet because there were some 396 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 8: charges on there for like small charges for like Google 397 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 8: and stuff like that. At first, I was like, oh 398 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 8: my god, I have no idea what these are. And 399 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 8: then they were like, come on, Kristin. So I had 400 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 8: to tell them about the tablet. So that was a 401 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 8: whole thing. Obviously, I gotten a ton of trouble. 402 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: And that was when jan and Ricky said from now 403 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: on every month she'd had to turn in her bank statements. 404 00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,080 Speaker 8: So that he could look over them and see how 405 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 8: I was spending my money. 406 00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: They put Christa on extreme diets again like when she 407 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: was little. 408 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 8: I did not want to be in more dietary bondage. 409 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: But they had her do back to back so called 410 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,639 Speaker 1: liver glenses. And while the group had dropped the prairie 411 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,960 Speaker 1: dress attire, they still had opinions about what Krista wore 412 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:34,239 Speaker 1: and started to enact new rules. They went through her 413 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: clothes and got rid of most of them. 414 00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 8: They told me what I couldn't couldn't wear, and then 415 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 8: they took me to Value village and they bought me 416 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 8: basically a whole new wardrobe. 417 00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: No leggings, more high necked shirts and skirts. One day, 418 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: on her lunch break, she went to Goodwill and bought 419 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,920 Speaker 1: herself a sweater. She got in trouble for it when 420 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: she got home. 421 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,480 Speaker 8: Basically, we're not allowed to buy anything unless you have 422 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 8: approval because it needs to be They called it proving. 423 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 8: There's a first in the Bible that says, prove all 424 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:03,679 Speaker 8: things hold fast that which is good, and so it 425 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,119 Speaker 8: had to be proved by somebody that was above me. 426 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 8: So what I started doing was I started taking the 427 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 8: money that I was funneling into that checking account and 428 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 8: buying my own wardrobe, and I was keeping it in 429 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 8: the trunk of my car. And what I would do 430 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 8: was I would wear the clothes that they bought me 431 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 8: out of the house, and before I got to work, 432 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,399 Speaker 8: i'd stop on like a remote area, and I'd quick 433 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 8: change into something that I felt more comfortable in, and 434 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,639 Speaker 8: then on the way home, I'd stop and change. 435 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 3: Back in. 436 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,520 Speaker 1: Christa was in physical therapy for a bad knee, but 437 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 1: now Jane and Ricky said she couldn't go to appointments 438 00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:47,119 Speaker 1: without someone to go with her, and no one was free, 439 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: so she had to stop going to physical therapy. 440 00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 8: I was expected to go to work and come straight home. 441 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 8: Don't stop at the store, anywhere you go, you need 442 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 8: to have somebody with you. I didn't have a life 443 00:27:58,119 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 8: of my own at all. 444 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:01,600 Speaker 3: Why do you think they were doing all this? 445 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 8: Well, what they said was that it was to strengthen 446 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:11,440 Speaker 8: my walk with God. What it really was about was control. 447 00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,439 Speaker 8: It was to cover their own lives. It was to 448 00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 8: protect themselves and their own darkness. To turn that phrase 449 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,159 Speaker 8: right back around on them. During this year, I was 450 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:29,320 Speaker 8: kind of slowly petering out. I was getting so tired. 451 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 8: I was over it. I was so over it. I actually, 452 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 8: at one point when I was at work, let it 453 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,280 Speaker 8: slip out that I didn't want to go home. I 454 00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:43,720 Speaker 8: kind of like just side that under my breath. I 455 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 8: was like, I don't want to go home. Somebody came 456 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 8: up to me and was like, are you okay? Are 457 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 8: you safe? I was like, yeah, I'm fine. 458 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 5: I just. 459 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 8: Having some problems with my roommates. And she's like, oh okay. 460 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 8: I came to a point where I was driving down 461 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,840 Speaker 8: the road. You know, I had all this fear of 462 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 8: if I left, that I would lose everything and I'd 463 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,280 Speaker 8: have eternal life, but I would maybe not get to 464 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 8: be with my family, or I maybe wouldn't get to 465 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 8: be with my loved ones. I'd maybe I'd be stuck 466 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,600 Speaker 8: on earth for the rest of my life, or you know, 467 00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 8: in some gen pop of heaven. 468 00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 7: You know. 469 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 8: So I had a lot of fear, and I remember 470 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:46,000 Speaker 8: driving down the road, and I remember exactly where I 471 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 8: was in Spokane, and I had the conscious thought, it 472 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 8: was almost thought that was like imposed upon me. Then 473 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 8: I was like, I don't care what happened. When Jesus 474 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 8: Christ comes back, whatever happens to me, it cannot possibly 475 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 8: be worse than this. That thought scared me because we 476 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 8: were so manipulated into believing that even though this life 477 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 8: was hard and there was a lot of suffering and 478 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 8: the leadership was imposing a lot of control on us, 479 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 8: that that was freedom. We were told that that was 480 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:35,120 Speaker 8: freedom and that the outside world was bondage. They could 481 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:38,959 Speaker 8: not reconcile that I could not because I was like, 482 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 8: this is bondage. I am in prison. I'm almost being 483 00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 8: held against my will. I know that I could walk 484 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 8: out that door anytime, but I will lose everything, my friends, 485 00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 8: I would lose my home, I'd lose my parents, I'd 486 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,920 Speaker 8: lose my sister. I would lose any sense of familiarity 487 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 8: that I had whatsoever. If I out that door and 488 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 8: chose to never come back. 489 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 7: Christa wrote a goodbye note and hid it away. 490 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 8: I was intending on leaving in the middle of the 491 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:16,880 Speaker 8: night and just leaving the note, and I was like, 492 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,320 Speaker 8: I'll live in my car, but I wasn't quite there yet. 493 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 8: It was really still really scared. Christa worked at a 494 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 8: call center. Now it was the only time she was 495 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 8: out of view of the other followers. She'd tell them 496 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 8: she had to go in earlier, stay late at work 497 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 8: just to be out of the house. I was saying 498 00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 8: that I was working like these fifteen hour days, which 499 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:36,600 Speaker 8: is ridiculous. 500 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 7: Come on, and soon enough they'd know she was lying 501 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 7: when they looked at her bank statements. But you know, 502 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 7: I didn't know what else to say. Around this time, 503 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 7: she started casually seeing a guy. Christie's co worker set 504 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 7: her up with her son, and so sometimes she'd claimed 505 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 7: to work late to spend time with him. One evening 506 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 7: she went over to his house. 507 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 8: Hadn't been checking my phone, and I checked my phone. 508 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,840 Speaker 8: It was late, and I had like fifteen missed calls 509 00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:03,840 Speaker 8: the people I lived with, voicemails, texts, where are you? 510 00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 8: I had an anxiety attack and I told him what 511 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 8: was going on. I was like, I'm in a cult 512 00:32:11,160 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 8: and I need to get out. I don't know how, 513 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,720 Speaker 8: and I'm not quite ready yet, but I need I 514 00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 8: have to figure it out. And he was very kind, 515 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 8: very understanding, and I went home and I kind of 516 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,840 Speaker 8: tried to explain it away that I worked late, which 517 00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 8: nobody believed. 518 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 7: A week later, Krista was at this guy's house again 519 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 7: when she got a phone call from a River Road 520 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 7: Fellowship Bishop Eric, a young guy in his twenties who 521 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 7: the church had decided was leadership material. Bishop Eric was 522 00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 7: a few years older than Krista, and she knowed him 523 00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:47,640 Speaker 7: since childhood. He'd always been kind to her. Bishop Eric 524 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 7: said he wanted to meet with her. 525 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 8: Ricky and Jan and I hung up the phone and 526 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 8: I looked at this young man and I said, I 527 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 8: need to get out of there, and he was like, well, 528 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 8: what do you need? I said, I need place to 529 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 8: stay and he goes, well, you can stay with me. 530 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,719 Speaker 8: He said, if you leave today, you can come here 531 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:07,320 Speaker 8: and you can stay with me for as long as 532 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 8: you need. I was like, you know what, I'm going 533 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 8: to go to this meeting and they're going to call 534 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 8: me out on my quote unquote darkness and I'm just 535 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 8: gonna lay it out. And I suddenly had this like 536 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 8: burst of bravery. 537 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 7: I was. 538 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:26,720 Speaker 9: So done, like so done. 539 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 7: Christy went back to the house and down to the 540 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 7: basement for their meeting. Jan said, next to her on 541 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 7: the couch, Ricky was there. Bishop Eric sat across the 542 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 7: coffee table. 543 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 8: From her, and he's kind of laying back and he 544 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 8: has legs crossed. I remember he said, first off, Krista, 545 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,160 Speaker 8: we love you. That's how he started. He said, but 546 00:33:47,160 --> 00:33:50,400 Speaker 8: there's some darkness here that I think we need to address. 547 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 8: He said, So let's start with these long hours that 548 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 8: you've said you've been working. And I said, let me 549 00:33:58,840 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 8: stop you right there. 550 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,880 Speaker 7: Christa told them she was seeing someone. 551 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:06,600 Speaker 8: And I said, in frankly, I'm not in a place 552 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 8: where I can live here anymore, either, so I think 553 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 8: it would be best for me to pack a bag 554 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 8: and leave today. 555 00:34:13,360 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 3: Wow, how did you feel, in that moment. 556 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 8: Kind of in shock that the words actually came out 557 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 8: of my mouth because I said it with such conviction, 558 00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 8: and I wasn't scared at all. I just was very 559 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 8: matter of fact. And the room got very quiet. 560 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 7: Jane asked Christa about this guy she'd been seeing. Then 561 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 7: Bishop Eric started talking, but she tuned it out. The 562 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,320 Speaker 7: whole scene floated away from her. She was hardly even there. 563 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 8: It took all of the strength I possibly had that 564 00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 8: I built up my entire life to bring me to 565 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 8: that moment right there. 566 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 9: Honestly, I was exhausted. 567 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 8: I think they made sure that I actually meant what 568 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 8: I said, and I was like, yeah. Eric is like, well, 569 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:09,400 Speaker 8: you have to go up and tell the rest of 570 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,600 Speaker 8: the household, and he said, would you like me to 571 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:15,960 Speaker 8: stay while you do that or do you want me 572 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 8: to leave? And I said I'd like you to stay. 573 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 8: I went upstairs and told them, and they helped me 574 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 8: pack a bag, you know. I packed a suitcase and 575 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 8: a bag of toilet trees and said my goodbyes. 576 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,520 Speaker 7: As she was leaving, Ricky said, do you want us 577 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 7: to call your parents? Christa said no, she'd call them. 578 00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 8: He said, well, you better call them. Right away, because 579 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,359 Speaker 8: otherwise they're going to hear from somebody else. I got 580 00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,720 Speaker 8: in my car and I started driving, and I decided 581 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 8: to take the back roads, and I called my dad 582 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 8: and my mom and I told them what happened. They 583 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:58,920 Speaker 8: were surprised. My dad said, I don't understand christ. He said, 584 00:35:59,080 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 8: everybody told me you were so happy and that you 585 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,080 Speaker 8: were doing so well. And I said, yeah, Dad, everybody 586 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,239 Speaker 8: told you that, But did you ever hear that from me. 587 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 8: He didn't really say anything, you know, And he's like, well, 588 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 8: he said, I have your back, honey, I have your back. 589 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 8: You know, I will always have your back. And I 590 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,360 Speaker 8: knew he didn't understand. Even though he was going to 591 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 8: try and make sense of it, I knew that it 592 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 8: was not going to be easy, especially for him. My 593 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 8: mom just wanted me to be happy. That's all my 594 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 8: mom has ever wanted was for me to be happy. 595 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 8: My dad is a little bit of a tougher nut 596 00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 8: to crack. So I lived with this young man for 597 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 8: a little while, and then I found my own place. 598 00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 8: I got a cat. I lived in my little one 599 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,920 Speaker 8: bedroom apartment for about nine months, and during that time, 600 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 8: my whole I mean, my whole world was falling apart. 601 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,479 Speaker 8: I birled into a very deep depression. I almost drank 602 00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,320 Speaker 8: myself to death. I ended up in the psych word months. 603 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:03,960 Speaker 8: It was not pretty. It was not a pretty time 604 00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 8: in my life. 605 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 6: You know. 606 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 8: I was free, but I didn't know what to do 607 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 8: with that freedom because I'd never had it before. I 608 00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,359 Speaker 8: didn't know how to exist as a human adult in 609 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 8: this world. Like I had no frame of reference whatsoever. 610 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:23,960 Speaker 8: So I really fell apart. I chose to move home 611 00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 8: because my dad got diagnosed with cancer New Year's Eve 612 00:37:28,239 --> 00:37:34,000 Speaker 8: of twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, to moved home, and it 613 00:37:34,040 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 8: was really when the healing process began for me. 614 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,359 Speaker 7: Her parents were still River Road Followers when she moved in. 615 00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 7: Christ has spent a lot of time with her. 616 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 8: Dad during the first several months I lived there, and 617 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 8: I was there to support him and I worked with him. 618 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 8: But he really didn't get it. He really didn't. He 619 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:00,799 Speaker 8: would try to understand, but he just didn't get it. 620 00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:06,279 Speaker 8: He just could not put the fact that these things 621 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 8: that happened to me. 622 00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:10,440 Speaker 9: Were so bad. 623 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,440 Speaker 8: He's like, well, getting help with your finances is a 624 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:16,480 Speaker 8: good thing, getting help with your diet is a good thing. 625 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 8: These are good things, and you know, in the right circumstances, 626 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:21,480 Speaker 8: they can be good things. 627 00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,880 Speaker 9: It was how they were executed with me that was wrong. 628 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 7: In the spring of twenty sixteen, Christ's parents visited Spokane. 629 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 7: Her dad talked to Victor's wife, who'd been living with 630 00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 7: Krista before she left. Christa says she was honest with him. 631 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,520 Speaker 7: She laid out what Christa had been through in that house. 632 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 7: They came home from this trip. 633 00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:51,480 Speaker 8: And my dad sat down with me in our living 634 00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:54,520 Speaker 8: room and he's like, can I talk to you for 635 00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 8: a few minutes, And I said, you know, I was like, yeah. 636 00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:01,000 Speaker 8: He goes, I want you to know that I believe you. 637 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 8: Everything that you said happened to you and Spokane. I 638 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:11,399 Speaker 8: believe you, and I am so sorry that you went 639 00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 8: through that. 640 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 7: Wow. 641 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 8: You know, I took me a minute to absorb what 642 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 8: he had just said, and I said, that's all I've 643 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:30,880 Speaker 8: ever wanted to hear from you. That sit down with 644 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 8: him and me, where he said I believe you and 645 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:35,640 Speaker 8: I'm so sorry that you went through all of that. 646 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:50,040 Speaker 8: It fixed something in me because I knew that I 647 00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 8: had his support, and that's something that a lot of 648 00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:59,759 Speaker 8: cult survivors don't get the support of their family. When 649 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 8: they're coming out of it, their family gets left in 650 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 8: the situation and they never understand and some of them 651 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,839 Speaker 8: never even speak to each other again. But I got 652 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 8: incredibly lucky because I had a mom and a dad 653 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 8: who cared about me more than they cared about the 654 00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:24,319 Speaker 8: principle of the church. And it was absolutely the one thing, 655 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:26,640 Speaker 8: the one thing, if I can pick one thing, it 656 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,919 Speaker 8: is the one thing that allowed me to begin to heal. 657 00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:40,800 Speaker 8: And I did, and I still am. I got sober 658 00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 8: because I knew that I needed to crawl out of 659 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,799 Speaker 8: the bottle if I was actually going to be able 660 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:49,440 Speaker 8: to address these things. I took about a year to 661 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 8: do that, and then I started to go to therapy 662 00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 8: and I did that for several years. And now I'm 663 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:05,239 Speaker 8: married to a wonderful man. I have an incredible little 664 00:41:05,280 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 8: boy who's never going to be told that he's less 665 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 8: than who he is, and he's going to get to 666 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,360 Speaker 8: be anything he wants to be, and I'm going to 667 00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 8: support him in that. And he is never going to 668 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 8: experience the things that I experienced as a child, not 669 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,920 Speaker 8: if I can help it, because he is a beautiful 670 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 8: human exactly who he is, and I'll be damned if 671 00:41:42,719 --> 00:42:02,959 Speaker 8: anybody tries to take that away from him next time. 672 00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,720 Speaker 4: On The Turning, her brother posted something on Facebook asking 673 00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 4: like to pray for her, and I immediately messaged him 674 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 4: what is going on? 675 00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:15,200 Speaker 3: What is going on with jess? 676 00:42:20,160 --> 00:42:23,640 Speaker 7: The Turning is a production of Rococo Punch and iHeart Podcasts. 677 00:42:24,040 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 7: It's written and produced by Erica Lance and Me. Our 678 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,799 Speaker 7: story editor is Emily Foreman. Mixing and sound designed by 679 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 7: James Trout. Grace Doe is our production assistant. Fact checking 680 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 7: by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Our executive producers are John Parratti 681 00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:44,239 Speaker 7: and Jessica Alpert at Rococo Punch, and Katrina Norvella and 682 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,920 Speaker 7: Nikki Etur at iHeart Podcasts. You can follow us on 683 00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 7: Instagram at Rococo Punch, and you can reach out via 684 00:42:51,239 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 7: email The Turning at Rococo punch dot com. 685 00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:57,760 Speaker 3: I'm Alan Lance Lesser. Thanks for listening.