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Speaker 1: Yeah. My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production

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Speaker 1: of the bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render,

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Speaker 1: where we render down, dive deeper, and looked behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f

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Speaker 1: HF Gear American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear

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Speaker 1: that's designed to be as rugged as the places we explore.

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Speaker 1: We got it, We got this. Playing in the Dutch

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Speaker 1: of it, I wonder too, aimlessen to lit field was in.

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Speaker 1: I would let my dear Savior ends, and Jesus came

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Speaker 1: out a stranger in the night. Praise the Lord. I

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Speaker 1: saw the lud, I saw the lid. I saw the light.

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Speaker 1: No more darkness, no more night. Now, I'm so happy,

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Speaker 1: no sorrow inside. Praise the Lord. I saw the lud.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Sing with me. Just like a blind man.

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Speaker 1: I wondered a long worries and fears. I claim form.

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Speaker 1: Then like a blind man that God gave back inside.

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Speaker 1: Praise Lord. I saw the light, I saw the lad.

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Speaker 1: I saw the light. No more darkness, no more night now,

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Speaker 1: I'm so happy, no sorrow inside. Praise the Lord. Excellent.

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Speaker 1: Finally nailed it, nailed it. Josh filmmaker on Josh Lodge

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Speaker 1: cast Iron Dutch Evan. Welcome to the Burgary Surrender. Great

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Speaker 1: to have everyone here on the Burgery Surrender. We've got

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Speaker 1: a a great lineup for you today. To my left,

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Speaker 1: I have Misty Nucam. It was accompanied me on the

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Speaker 1: band Joe. To Misty's left, we have Brent Reeves. Brent,

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Speaker 1: great to see you. You put too much salt in

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Speaker 1: the gravy. I don't know if that's possible. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: just okay, we just made a big, huge, like twelve

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Speaker 1: man skillet size. We figured we could have fed twelve

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Speaker 1: men and average helping the gravy, which is about a court.

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Speaker 1: Brent says, too much salt. I wasn't gonna say this,

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Speaker 1: but last time Brent cooked me gravy, I didn't think

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Speaker 1: it had enough salt. I have to say, I saw

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Speaker 1: that video and I don't remember you putting salt in

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Speaker 1: it in the videos. He didn't. Bran well, he's basically

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Speaker 1: made paper mache. So everybody puts the right amount of

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Speaker 1: salt their own salt, because you could always puttin because

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Speaker 1: Clay who come, likes an enormous amount of salt. And

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Speaker 1: for me, it's like a little bit too much? Was

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Speaker 1: here too much salt? Like if you eat too much salt?

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Speaker 1: What are what are the symptoms of that? Like blood

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Speaker 1: pressure that I have incredible? I have great, I have

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Speaker 1: great blood pressure. They also has had multiple nights in

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Speaker 1: the last year where he couldn't sleep because he had

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Speaker 1: consumed so much salt. Well, how do you you don't

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Speaker 1: know that A slight exaggeration about this. I'll tell you

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Speaker 1: how many times salt twice this year twice. No, not

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Speaker 1: this year, it hadn't even happened this year. Twice in

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Speaker 1: the last three years, I've eaten salt pork. Where do

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Speaker 1: you Where does one procure salt pork at the right

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Speaker 1: grocery from Penny g Me. Salt pork is incredible stuff.

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Speaker 1: It is incredible stuff. But man, it will send you

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Speaker 1: through the roof. But I don't know for real. I

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Speaker 1: couldn't sleep. I I told Brent. I called Brent after

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Speaker 1: I salt pork one time, I said, I said, I

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Speaker 1: woke up three times last night and drank out of

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Speaker 1: the bathrooms thirsty when you go in the bathroom. Yeah, so, anyway,

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Speaker 1: but that much salt that often, So Brent reeves, I

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Speaker 1: respect your gravy, gravy stuff. Josh, So, I like a

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Speaker 1: little salt. Salt. Alexis was here and she didn't put

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Speaker 1: salt in anything. She's some Texas and she's crazy. But

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Speaker 1: that's way. It's just the way it is. And if

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Speaker 1: if Mama don't want salt in there, that's not a

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Speaker 1: Texas thing. That's like, that's an Alexis thing. That's like

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Speaker 1: a girl from Tyler, Texas. It's never put her foot

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Speaker 1: in the grass. That's her. Yeah, that's my girl. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: great lady as much of a tomato farmer to Brent's left.

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Speaker 1: Isaac Neil, assistant producer of Beargrease. Yeah, we always introduced

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Speaker 1: him like that. I mean he is just a lot

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Speaker 1: together on Bear Grease. Every day i've been I've been

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Speaker 1: sowing the seeds of getting a promotion. By promoting you,

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Speaker 1: how's that going to work? I want you to be

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Speaker 1: bumped up to executive producer, so then I can be

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Speaker 1: the producer. Oh that's good. Idea her own titles around here,

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Speaker 1: so wouldn't do what we want? Yeah, I'm I'm hoping

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Speaker 1: in the next five years I can get promoted to producer.

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Speaker 1: I think you're so are our really special guest this week, though,

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Speaker 1: to the left of Isaac is my brother, Zach nukem

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Speaker 1: to be Yeah, y'all didn't know I had a brother,

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Speaker 1: did you? Until the last podcast? You have a brother?

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Speaker 1: This is your first time on the bear Grease podcast.

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Speaker 1: Because I think that you've got some bones to pick with, Clay.

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Speaker 1: Do I probably have many bones you're going to have.

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Speaker 1: You got mad at me about you about one of

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Speaker 1: the and you said, oh, and then I get mad

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Speaker 1: at because Clay said he's the only one of the

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Speaker 1: Newcomb brothers who made it through the garret and let

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Speaker 1: me just let me just doesn't actually play some multiple

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Speaker 1: talks after the podcast, you can have him fire smiththy,

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Speaker 1: I'll take him name. No, yeah, yeah, I said I

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Speaker 1: was the only Nucomb boy who graduated from the gay

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Speaker 1: Newcomb School of Hunting Hard Knocks. And that wasn't the

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Speaker 1: bear Grease though, that was the well. And then I

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Speaker 1: remember you said, Clay, you said that as if me

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Speaker 1: and Tyler failed. Me and Tyler never were in the school.

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Speaker 1: We never wanted to enroll. Yeah, I have some memory.

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Speaker 1: But Zach was a featured guest on this last Wet

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Speaker 1: So Old Death Win podcast. What's It like, what's it

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Speaker 1: like to be a feature guest on the Baracrease podcast.

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Speaker 1: I've always wondered something, Josh, one of these days. Maybe

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Speaker 1: one of these days, Zach, what are your what are

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Speaker 1: your credentials inside the mental health field? So I'm a

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Speaker 1: clinical social worker, I've been and right now I'm in

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Speaker 1: private practice. So I have my own office in northwest

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Speaker 1: Arkansas where I, you know, do individual therapy, see people

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Speaker 1: with trauma and depression, anxiety, see multiple ages. How long

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Speaker 1: you've been doing that. I've been doing that since, um

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Speaker 1: twenty years? Probably not not in private practice. I was

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Speaker 1: a clinical director for a bit. I've worked at some

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Speaker 1: group homes and then yeah, yeah, in private practice that's

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Speaker 1: done a lot of in homework with families. Have a

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Speaker 1: tiersman from the middle ground? Frontiersman from the middle ground, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what they call the middle ground? I have not Okay,

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Speaker 1: what was a trick question I've got? I've got oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because you can't diagnose someone who's not in person. I

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Speaker 1: have a more pressing question. Okay, what if a frontiersman

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Speaker 1: from the middle Ground walked into his office today? Well,

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Speaker 1: would Davey die dignosed with me? Fair game? Be fair? Game. No. No,

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Speaker 1: I mean like I'm I'm not saying the time traveled.

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Speaker 1: I'm just saying some dude shows up wearing buck skins

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Speaker 1: scalps on his belt. I mean, what do you start talking?

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Speaker 1: Then the first look at the condition of the skin,

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Speaker 1: thinking maybe zombie, right, I want out, and then from

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Speaker 1: there it's it's on. I don't know. We're gonna do

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Speaker 1: lots of scans and tests. Yeah, so we're gonna come

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Speaker 1: back to Zach. So to Zach's left to finalize the introductions.

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Speaker 1: Josh Landenbridge spilmmaker, Great to see you, Josh fly Fisherman

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Speaker 1: deck builder. Josh has been helping me build a deck.

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Speaker 1: It's true. Hey, so all this, uh all the I've

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Speaker 1: been doing a fair bit of construction as of late

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Speaker 1: um building a deck and we're getting ready for a

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Speaker 1: few things. And uh. I told the story earlier today

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Speaker 1: to Brent and Isaac that I had not remembered in

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Speaker 1: a long time, and it had almost been a race

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Speaker 1: for my memory. When I first started a landscape company

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Speaker 1: circus two thousand five something like that, I had a

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Speaker 1: I had a sixteen foot trailer at a truck like

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Speaker 1: a three quarter ton short cab Chevrolet truck and I

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Speaker 1: had a commoted tractor, small compoted tractor. Well, the area

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Speaker 1: I was working in, Fayetteville, Arkansas area is really hilly

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Speaker 1: and there's a lot of people building on these pretty

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Speaker 1: steep slopes and different things. Well, this is something that

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Speaker 1: you learned when you're around heavy equipment. You learned it

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Speaker 1: real quick. But I had never worked with anybody else,

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Speaker 1: so no one had taught me this, which I proceeded

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Speaker 1: to teach everyone after me this. So I backed my

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Speaker 1: trailer down there driveway because you got when you got

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Speaker 1: down there, it was like real tight and you couldn't

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Speaker 1: turn around. There was this a little section of concrete

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Speaker 1: and it was like gravel and the concrete, and I

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Speaker 1: backed my trailer down in there to unload all this

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Speaker 1: stuff and whatnot. Well, it came time to leave finish

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Speaker 1: the job, and I'm pulling the tractor into the trailer

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Speaker 1: and my truck is on the gravel, my trailer is

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Speaker 1: on the concrete, and my truck is like pointed uphill

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Speaker 1: pretty severely. Twelve feet behind the tail of my trailer

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Speaker 1: is a very steep drop off that just goes down

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Speaker 1: the mountain trees and it was kind of like built

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Speaker 1: up red dirt where they built the concrete pad, and

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Speaker 1: then it just dove off down the mountain. Well, I

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Speaker 1: I go down there and square up the tractor to

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Speaker 1: the tailgate of the trailer and start driving onto the trailer. Well,

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Speaker 1: I didn't have any little legs on the back of

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Speaker 1: my trailer. So when the weight of the tractor was

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Speaker 1: on the back of the trailer, the hitch of the

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Speaker 1: trailer lifts and pulls the weight. You know, the ball

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Speaker 1: is attached to the truiler, so it lifts the back

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Speaker 1: tires of the truck essentially off the ground almost And

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Speaker 1: I'm like halfway on the trailer. As soon as my

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Speaker 1: wheels get onto the tailgate, the truck and trailer just

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Speaker 1: starts coming back, just just sliding down the hill. The

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Speaker 1: gravels popping in the truck. Trailer, tractor, and me are

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Speaker 1: all gaining speed going down the hill. I was petrified.

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Speaker 1: I was by myself there. I jumped off the trailer

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Speaker 1: onto the ground. The trailer and truck are still sliding.

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Speaker 1: I run and jump into the moving truck and jam

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Speaker 1: the brakes, which doesn't do any good because all the

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Speaker 1: weights still like there's no weight on the back of

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Speaker 1: the truck, the weight of the tractors pulling me down.

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Speaker 1: And finally, after just cramming on the brakes, its skids

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Speaker 1: and and basically the trailer gets hung up hanging out

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Speaker 1: over the edge, and my tractor is like dangling over

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Speaker 1: like this big drop off and I can't move. Like

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Speaker 1: I start, you know, I put it in park, and

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Speaker 1: then I started taking my foot off the brake and

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Speaker 1: it starts going again. And so I had a cell phone.

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Speaker 1: I was in cell range, and so I call a

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Speaker 1: wrecker and I say, man, if I get out of

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Speaker 1: my truck or take my foot off the break, I'm

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Speaker 1: going over a ledge. How quick can you get here?

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Speaker 1: And and they were like, well, I wouldn't be there

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Speaker 1: and probably about thirty minutes. Don't get in a hurt

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Speaker 1: so like coming. And I was like, well, I'll be

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Speaker 1: right here. I won't be going anywhere. And I sat

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Speaker 1: in my truck until the record came and I stuck

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Speaker 1: my head out the window and was like, I ain't

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Speaker 1: getting out of this truck. I'm not taking my foot

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Speaker 1: off this break. Just hook me up and get me

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Speaker 1: out of here. And so he did. He was able

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Speaker 1: to how long did it take him you know, I

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Speaker 1: really don't even remember it was. It was a non

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Speaker 1: dramatic rescue. Once he got there, he just was pretty

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Speaker 1: quickly able to hook on and just the best. So

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Speaker 1: all that to say, just to say, what, yeah, what's

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Speaker 1: the point of the story, curiosity story that would have been?

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Speaker 1: There was just an exciting story that came up in

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Speaker 1: my memory bank today with brit and Isaac. Isaac. It

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Speaker 1: was totally relevant, wasn't it. Yeah, I'm I do have

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Speaker 1: something I want to show you guys. You may have

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Speaker 1: seen this on on Instagram. Isaac and I were traveling

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Speaker 1: through where where we Isaac were in Illinois. We were

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Speaker 1: in Illinois and we walk into a Native American gift

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Speaker 1: shop and it was no ordinary Native American gift shop.

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Speaker 1: It was a I mean, huge log cabin building, very

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Speaker 1: nice under stories, I mean like incredible diversity of products,

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Speaker 1: authentic stuff, buffalo hides, animal hides, stone points shirts, art,

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Speaker 1: six dollar sunglasses, nice pair of six sunglasses. And then

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Speaker 1: I saw this on the back wall. And if that

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Speaker 1: is not a black panther, I mean I would say

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Speaker 1: real black panthers probably their heads aren't this big. I

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Speaker 1: wish they were A note that I said real black panthers.

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Speaker 1: But that is a I mean, that's that's how much.

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Speaker 1: That probably more than it is worth. But I didn't care.

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Speaker 1: I told Isaac, I said, I don't care what it

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Speaker 1: costs to steal it twice the price. I haven't figured

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Speaker 1: out where to put it yet, though, I'm curious in

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Speaker 1: to what made it a Native American gift shop. That

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Speaker 1: is how they build themselves. There were there were billboard,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's what it was called. I mean like

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Speaker 1: Native American gift shop. Next exit, turn right, and I

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Speaker 1: did like a bat turn on the internship. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it was it was. He was exceptionally nice. And when

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Speaker 1: I walked up there with this, I figured she would

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Speaker 1: be like, who are you by this? She acted like

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Speaker 1: they sell these like every other person that walks in there.

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Speaker 1: She's got three in her home. That is a beautiful

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Speaker 1: She was just like she was excited that we bought this,

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Speaker 1: and she she she wanted to sell me another. One

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Speaker 1: man in the break, I just I'm just kind of

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Speaker 1: going through a little checklist, okay, I had. I don't

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Speaker 1: make it a point to read too many of the

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Speaker 1: iTunes reviews because there's I did have a gentleman who

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Speaker 1: brought into question me saying that the Washingtal Mountains were

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Speaker 1: the only mountains between the Appalachians and the Rockies that

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Speaker 1: run east and west. And he, I mean, I hope

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Speaker 1: this guy's listening, and I hope he doesn't think I'm

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Speaker 1: being rude to him. But he had a little bit

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Speaker 1: of a chip on his shoulder when he was like, Clay,

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Speaker 1: you might want to do some fact checking up. He's

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Speaker 1: a little he was a little there was there was

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Speaker 1: some sassin there. And I don't I don't want to

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Speaker 1: make this a thing where because I'm the guy with

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Speaker 1: the microphone make the guy without the microphone look stupid.

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Speaker 1: But that's gonna be hard to do here. He's just wrong.

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Speaker 1: But he challenged me on on this thing that stories

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Speaker 1: don't challenge the man with the Well, that's a general.

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Speaker 1: I appreciated his his desire for engagement. He's of what

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Speaker 1: was said because the he said that the Ozarks ran

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Speaker 1: east and west to which granted, there are ridges and

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Speaker 1: mountains in the Ozarks that don't that do run east

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Speaker 1: and west, but that does not make them a mountain

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Speaker 1: range that runs east and west. Ozarks are completely jumbled.

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Speaker 1: Those arks were formed by erosion. So there was a plateau.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I go through this like this podcast ought

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Speaker 1: to be called how the Orogeny of the Ozark and

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Speaker 1: Washington Mountains because I go through it about every other podcast.

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Speaker 1: When the South American continent bumped into the North American continent,

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Speaker 1: there was a bulge. The Ozark plateau bulged, and that

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Speaker 1: was in the north. It bulged and in that road,

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Speaker 1: and that plateau eroded randomly. And so there's ridges that

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Speaker 1: run east and west, north and south, southwest, northwest, any

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Speaker 1: any direction you want. Josh so boxed much, okay, And

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Speaker 1: and the wash Ittas were formed there closer to the impact,

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Speaker 1: and they actually buckled. And the wash Itta Mountains look

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Speaker 1: like the furrows of a plowman's field that long east

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Speaker 1: west ridge. What's the elevation that requires that? That means

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Speaker 1: it's a mountain? Oh? There. I do not believe there

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Speaker 1: is an actual elevation that makes something a mountain. I

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Speaker 1: think that you know, what, aren't you in environmental soil

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Speaker 1: science may say, shouldn't you be able to tell us us? No,

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything that makes it a mountain,

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Speaker 1: But maybe maybe I could be wrong. What what brought

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Speaker 1: this up is. We were looking at a hydrological map

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Speaker 1: of Arkansas earlier today, and it's just so clear that

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Speaker 1: the watch DAWs run east and west. It's just like

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Speaker 1: somebody got bored and drew lines across the map. There.

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Speaker 1: That is not what the Ozarks looks like. As a

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Speaker 1: proud ozarker and bread yeah, I love the Ozarks, not

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Speaker 1: a yeah. So I don't want to make a big

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Speaker 1: deal about it. Mr has something. Most geologists classify a

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Speaker 1: mountain as a landform that rises at least one thousand

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Speaker 1: feet a k A three or above its surrounding areas. Oh,

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Speaker 1: there you go. So you know the highest peaks in

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Speaker 1: Arkansas are about three thousand feet. Appalachians are much bigger.

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Speaker 1: Did you know that the highest peak in the east

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Speaker 1: of the Mississippi is in southern Appalachia somewhere, and I

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Speaker 1: think it's just under seven thousand feet. That's a hot mountain.

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Speaker 1: I believe it's I don't want to say. I'll get

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Speaker 1: more emails, you know, I was. I was pretty be

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Speaker 1: wrong that time would be. Yeah, there's a mountain. I

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Speaker 1: think it's called Mountain Mitchell. It was pretty cool. You know,

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Speaker 1: we're in Maui a couple of weeks ago. Check what's

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Speaker 1: the biggest mountain in the Appalachian Mountain Range? Where in

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Speaker 1: Maui a couple of weeks ago and you're it's weird

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Speaker 1: to sit on the beach. And then we went up

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Speaker 1: to Holliakala. If I'm saying that right, National Park and

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Speaker 1: it's ten thousand ft. You go from the to ten thousand.

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Speaker 1: Here's another thing to fact check. I think that might

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Speaker 1: be the tallest mountain in the world from its base,

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Speaker 1: which is the bar below the ocean, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: Mount Everest, which is the tallest mountain from sea level.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense. I mean, it's it's it's impressive. What's

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Speaker 1: the biggest mountain in the Appalachians? Mount Mitchell? What score

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Speaker 1: are you saying? Tallest mountain from base in North America? No,

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Speaker 1: in the world. I'm putting it out there. Good job,

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Speaker 1: Just be bold. Yeah, absolutely, say the name Josh Hollia

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Speaker 1: calla Monica. Okay, that's that's that isn't Hawaii. That's a

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Speaker 1: different volcano. I knew it was a Hawaiian mountain because

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Speaker 1: I went The first time I read that, I thought no,

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Speaker 1: it was just like no. It turns out I was

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Speaker 1: from Isaac hasn't toddler, y'all, so it is a toddler

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Speaker 1: this this podcast asked Lewis Wetzel the Death Wind, what

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Speaker 1: do you think of it general general thoughts is a

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Speaker 1: main rascal. Yeah, he was mean. He didn't strike me

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Speaker 1: as the most psychologically healthy person. Yeah, there's a lot,

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Speaker 1: you know, I hate to oversimplify this, but I was

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Speaker 1: listening to it again on the way up here, and

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Speaker 1: there was a lot in there. The guy that y'all

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Speaker 1: talked to up in Ohio or Illinois work, Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: he was talking about how people thought how Native Americans

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Speaker 1: thought of Europeans, and how the Europeans thought of the

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Speaker 1: Native Americans as not being worthy, not being humans. You

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Speaker 1: know that each had that opinion. And the one thing

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Speaker 1: I can relate that too is growing up. My grandmother

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Speaker 1: had a country in the backyard, and I got a

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Speaker 1: nickel for every blue jay that I could shoot out

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Speaker 1: of that the country. If I shot a red bird,

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Speaker 1: she would have beat me to have to death. But

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Speaker 1: blue jays were fair game because they knocked up cons

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Speaker 1: out of the tree before they got right, and they

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Speaker 1: would ruin. To this day, I in my backyard and

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Speaker 1: I got bird features out there, and we sat out

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Speaker 1: on the patio and the evenings when it's not so hot,

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Speaker 1: and we watched the birds, and I love seeing red

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Speaker 1: birds up there. But to this day a blue jay

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Speaker 1: flies up in the backyard, I think if I had

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Speaker 1: a baby gun right now, somebody open a nickel. It

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Speaker 1: was just ingrained to me from a small child. Jays

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Speaker 1: were bad. But there's really nothing that's going to change that.

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Speaker 1: They're beautiful, but my first thought when I see them

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Speaker 1: is he's got to die. Yeah, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: follow through its getting dark quick, but I mean, you

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Speaker 1: see what correlation that was the only thing, because it's

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Speaker 1: not it's not really fair. Why is that bird any

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Speaker 1: different than that bird exactly? I'd like to point out.

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Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about this on the

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Speaker 1: phone the other day, but this idea that like there

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Speaker 1: was some cognitive dissonance in people, like I think that

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Speaker 1: they were aware that they were making up excuses to

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Speaker 1: dehumanize these people to justify their actions. A couple examples

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Speaker 1: are there were missionaries to the Native Americans at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, Like if they're not people, then why

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Speaker 1: are we trying to evangelize to them. And secondly, if

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Speaker 1: there is a context in which killing a Native American

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Speaker 1: is wrong, I eat the time that he got tried

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Speaker 1: for murder, then you're kind of aware of the humanity

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Speaker 1: of these people anyway. And so I think that's part

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Speaker 1: of what makes this story stand out and carry through

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Speaker 1: to be like man even in a time when people

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Speaker 1: were like doing something that on one level they knew

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Speaker 1: was wrong, I mean really effectively, what was happening was like,

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Speaker 1: I know it's wrong to kill other human beings, but

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Speaker 1: I really want this land and they're standing in the

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Speaker 1: way that like full stop. But like a lot of

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Speaker 1: people did a lot of justifying in the middle of it,

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Speaker 1: which is not too assuage all the actions that the

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Speaker 1: Native Americans took in retaliation, but it is to say

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Speaker 1: that like they were aware of the humanity. It was

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Speaker 1: just something that they had convinced themselves of in a

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Speaker 1: certain context. This is okay, this is appropriate. We went

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Speaker 1: too far. Yeah, And and that what happened here in

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Speaker 1: North America was has not been uncommon to planet Earth

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Speaker 1: at all. I mean, it's still happening to this day

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Speaker 1: in in in some places, and it's uh, yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: the problem of humanity. It. I could just imagine the

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Speaker 1: justification that was given for you know, and I think

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Speaker 1: people had to turn to blind eye to what he

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Speaker 1: was doing just you know, that's just him, because there

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Speaker 1: were people who were not that way, for instance, Daniel Boone.

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Speaker 1: He mentioned Daniel Boone, who had a completely different standard

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Speaker 1: in the way that he interacted with people. But man,

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Speaker 1: there there's there's people out there. I mean, you run

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Speaker 1: into it. And Zach probably sees it as much as anybody,

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Speaker 1: but just that there's a there's a thing inside of

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Speaker 1: them that drives them to it's almost, uh, it's almost

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Speaker 1: an insanity of two do this thing, no matter what

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Speaker 1: the cost. And he just had this mindset. Well I

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Speaker 1: don't even know if it was like it's not that

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Speaker 1: he wanted to murder, he wanted to eradicate Indians, you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever the wets all Wetzell. He defined the perimeter of

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Speaker 1: what was acceptable to white culture during that time, I

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Speaker 1: mean this American culture during that time. Because some people

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Speaker 1: thought he was over the line. Other people didn't. And

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Speaker 1: in an hour long podcast, I really didn't have time

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Speaker 1: to even tell the whole story. He he became in

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Speaker 1: a somewhat of an anti government hero to the people

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Speaker 1: on the frontier who were having trouble with Native Americans

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Speaker 1: and the government would come in and try to stop

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Speaker 1: them and wouldn't be able to and they would be like, well,

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Speaker 1: if Louis Wetzel was here, he could stop him. And

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Speaker 1: and he was actually more efficient as a guerrilla warfare

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Speaker 1: guy than even the government, and so he all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden is brought to this position of of even

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Speaker 1: more esteem inside these communities, you know, um, and I

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Speaker 1: can't get past And again, this is not I said

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Speaker 1: it on the podcast, and this is not a justification.

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm not trying to I'm not trying

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Speaker 1: to justify. I'm just trying to make sense of how

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Speaker 1: stuff like this could happen. And man, if you lived

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Speaker 1: on the frontier, these Indian hunters, these Indian scouts would

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Speaker 1: be people that the vast majority of culture deeply respected.

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Speaker 1: And I want to say something else too, is that

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Speaker 1: there's this idea that that you know, white Europeans came

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Speaker 1: and took the land from these Native Americans. There were

425
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: generations when when when Europeans first got here where literally

426
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 1: they've left their home in Europe, came here and then

427
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: would have tried to take land from Native Americans to

428
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:00,840
Speaker 1: live and and there know, there was a time when

429
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,639
Speaker 1: Native Americans were saying, yeah, come on over here. But

430
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: then there are people that are born here very quickly

431
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: and they wake up and they're like, well, we gotta

432
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: have a place to live, and so they start trying

433
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: to acquire lands and whatnot, and very quickly you get

434
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,199
Speaker 1: people who are born here who are native people to

435
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: this continent. Now their their parents weren't, their grandparents weren't.

436
00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: And it kind of takes to me. It's it's it's

437
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 1: different than just like somebody coming and trying to take

438
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,879
Speaker 1: someone's land. And even the Native American chiefs told to

439
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: come to that. When two Comes went to two comes

440
00:26:40,359 --> 00:26:44,439
Speaker 1: to tried to build this Pan Indian Federation, basically two

441
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: comes and went to all the tribes and tried to say, hey,

442
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: we can push all the white people back to Europe.

443
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,240
Speaker 1: That's a simple version of two Comes to his life.

444
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: And many of the Native American leaders said, where are

445
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:01,480
Speaker 1: they going to go? They it's like, this is these

446
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,159
Speaker 1: aren't the people that came here. Do you see what

447
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: I'm saying a little bit? I get what you're saying

448
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: I think this gets at uh another thing that we

449
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,159
Speaker 1: talked at about on the phone. And this is like

450
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,359
Speaker 1: a regret that I have about this episode is until

451
00:27:15,480 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: listening to it, I didn't even think we you you

452
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,680
Speaker 1: had tasked me with finding somebody to interview on this,

453
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: and when I was listening to it, I was like,

454
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: there is not a native voice present in this, and

455
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 1: this is a story that is wholly dependent on a

456
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: native voice, not wholly dependent. Half of the story is

457
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 1: about him killing Native Americans, right, And so like I

458
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 1: would just love to hear the other perspective on that,

459
00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: because for me, very easy to empathize with what you

460
00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: just said. And and then I go like, what's the

461
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,399
Speaker 1: other side of the story, right, Because there is in

462
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 1: a conflict, two sides of the story, and the victor

463
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,919
Speaker 1: often gets to write the history. And that's true. And

464
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 1: beyond that, I think that we we are guilty of

465
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: like a little bit of essentialization in terms of humanity

466
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: when we're trying to tell stories. And so it's like

467
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 1: there was so much going on where no one is

468
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 1: a monolith. There were people who were pretty comfortable with this,

469
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,679
Speaker 1: and then there was other dynamics going on, like the

470
00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: idea where eastern tribes had already been pushed west. And

471
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 1: so it's not like all Native American tribes, for hunky

472
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: Dorrian pushing towards one goal, like they were fighting for

473
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: resources and space within that and fighting with this thing

474
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,480
Speaker 1: that was external white uh, colonizers. And I don't know,

475
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:30,840
Speaker 1: it's just like I don't know that there is an answer.

476
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 1: I don't know if there if you can sum it up,

477
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: and and there's no possible way that Native Americans didn't.

478
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it was essentially genocide. And I mean, like

479
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: all the terrible descriptors that we know which and I

480
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: guess my point and and and seeing the way people

481
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: handled guys like Wetzel is that it was a little

482
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: bit more like a frog and boiling water like the

483
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: This thing took place over the course of really five

484
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: hundred years. Yeah, uh, from the time first white Europeans

485
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: went inland into the into what's now the United States

486
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: and spread smallpox and and and you know, as much

487
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 1: as of Native Americans died from disease two all the time,

488
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 1: all the way up to Wetzel, which is pretty late history.

489
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,320
Speaker 1: I mean like eighteen well eight, honestly, that's like not

490
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: boots on the ground for the first time for white

491
00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:30,480
Speaker 1: European settlers exactly. So it's just this long period and

492
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 1: and and and it was a war like Zach said,

493
00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: like Runella said, this was a war zone. Zack, what

494
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,360
Speaker 1: do you think? Yeah, I mean I enjoyed. I enjoyed

495
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: the podcast play good job, uh right on? You know what,

496
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 1: I had never heard Wetzel's story before. Obviously I had.

497
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: You and I had some conversations before. So yeah, you

498
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: actually never you didn't listen to the podcast before. You

499
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:54,480
Speaker 1: just heard me tell you. Yeah, you and I talked

500
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: for ten minutes, you know, before that podcast, and you

501
00:29:57,640 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: shot me that song. Yeah, this to the ballad, very

502
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: informative ballad of can you determine whether or not he's

503
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: a psychopath? On this ballot? You know, I mean I

504
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: think that, I mean I agree with what Isaac said

505
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: and that I mean, there's not really a good answer there, right,

506
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: I mean, this was an awful situation. And to me,

507
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,040
Speaker 1: what I see is that like when I when when

508
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: I look at this, it's like, I mean, you throw

509
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:26,160
Speaker 1: it's almost like like cooking a good stew misty, right,

510
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 1: you know, you throw a bunch of ingredients in and

511
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: that's what you get, right, I mean, so it meaning

512
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: you got this war zone happening, You've got you know,

513
00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: probably mean a lot of unethical stuff happening across the board. Right,

514
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: You've got these people on the border, You've got this

515
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: one guy with this crazy trauma. And and when you

516
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,600
Speaker 1: throw humans into certain environments and they've got certain genetic tendencies,

517
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,600
Speaker 1: things pop up, right, and Wetzel is one of those

518
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 1: dynamics that pops up. Uh. And you could probably find

519
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned too. You can go back all

520
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:00,959
Speaker 1: across history. You can go to Bazi Germany, you can

521
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 1: go to Genocis, genocides, and all over the place of

522
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:07,479
Speaker 1: stuff happening now that you could find. My guess is

523
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: you could find a very similar story two wet cells

524
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 1: for that context. Right, you can find somebody who you know,

525
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: extreme trauma uh, really laid against a certain population or

526
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: people or people group, right. Uh. And if they've got

527
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: certain tendencies, uh, then that's what it's going to create,

528
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: all right, And so uh, you know it's a sad story.

529
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: I totally agree. I mean I had the same thought

530
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: Isaac did about it would have been interesting to have

531
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: a native American voice in there. I apologize, especially if

532
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,280
Speaker 1: you could have found somebody who knew Wetzel's story right,

533
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: And honestly, we had a hard time finding anybody that

534
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 1: knew the story, anybody that because Wetzel was such a

535
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: a periphery character like he didn't. He wasn't a boon

536
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,480
Speaker 1: that really influenced American identity. He wasn't a Davy Crockett,

537
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,840
Speaker 1: he wasn't a war hero. He was just I mean,

538
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: he was known literally just for what we told about,

539
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,320
Speaker 1: like killing any So he's not There's not many people

540
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 1: that we couldn't find an academic expert that said, raised

541
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:12,239
Speaker 1: my hand, I am the expert on this guy, on

542
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: this guy. It was just all these little hodgepodge stories

543
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: from different people. And then we found Chip Chip grows

544
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: chips are what a guy incredible? So those are my

545
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 1: general I mean, I mean, is an awful story, all right.

546
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 1: I mean I didn't know even here when we spoke,

547
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: I didn't know he had a brother, and so that, uh, well,

548
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 1: I guess I knew because he but I didn't know

549
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 1: his brother had the aggressive tendency. All his brothers were

550
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,680
Speaker 1: heavily involved in just pretty rough stuff with Native America.

551
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 1: And so it's just a rough story and it just

552
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 1: shows i mean, what people can become in the right environment, right,

553
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: and then the right I mean, you know there's a

554
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: little bit of genetics involved, and there's uh yeah, the

555
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: wrong environment. But you know how the environment shape us

556
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 1: and form us and and uh and change us and

557
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: and and I'm not saying that. I mean even in

558
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: in the podcast, I think one of the guys that

559
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: was interviewed like im, it's not an excuse necessarily, right,

560
00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: I mean like Wetzel had choices, He had choices, he

561
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 1: could have he could have done he could have been different. Uh.

562
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's an awful story. I mean, it's

563
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,280
Speaker 1: one that you go back and I mean, I think

564
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 1: you mentioned the podcast too, where's the redemption in this? Uh?

565
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: And it's tough, it's it's a little bit tough to

566
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,120
Speaker 1: find other than it makes me thankful from where I'm at, yeah, right,

567
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: I mean it makes me thankful for the context and

568
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,479
Speaker 1: where I'm at, and uh, in the culture that we

569
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: live in, because even now in two thousand twenty two,

570
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: there are places that are more similar to that environment

571
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: that Wetzel was in than the environment that we live. So, yeah,

572
00:33:52,000 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: those are my musings on it. What do you think, well, um,

573
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: I think the part where you said that it would

574
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: have been hard for women not to pay attention to

575
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: a man locks down to his knees. I was just

576
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: speculating driving down the car listening to it alone in

577
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: the car, and I'm listening and you say that, and

578
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: I stay out loud in the car. That's my husband.

579
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 1: I just said that, I'm just what would have been

580
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,640
Speaker 1: very striking to see a dude with black literature. It's

581
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: all through the literature. I'm just a messenger man, all

582
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: through the literature. It said that that that he was.

583
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: He never gave any attention to the ladies, but the

584
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,879
Speaker 1: ladies gave him attention and they did say that. Yeah,

585
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 1: dude was running through the woods on a killer's raider

586
00:34:55,920 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: like Crystal Gale. Think ever tripped over it. I mean

587
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: he had to have it contained for him to do

588
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,440
Speaker 1: what he did. Had to have it contained. What is

589
00:35:08,520 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 1: plated mean plaited hair, plaided, it's braided. Okay, well he

590
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:17,960
Speaker 1: wore it braided all the time. But you didn't mention

591
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: in the podcast that. In our conversation, I thought was

592
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: really interesting was that he was he was very isolated, right, Like,

593
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: I mean you said that he wasn't interested in the ladies,

594
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: like that thing. I hit on that enough. I mean

595
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 1: I don't remember you talking about it at all. Maybe

596
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:35,799
Speaker 1: you did and I missed it. Yeah, but you're right,

597
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 1: I didn't say it. I mean because to me, that

598
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 1: was like, so if he if that's the walks into

599
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: my office, that's one of one of the things that

600
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: I think, I don't think. I don't like that made

601
00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: it to the podcast where I where I kind of

602
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: laid out some of the things I would necessarily look for,

603
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: but that would have been one that's kind of interesting it.

604
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: Does he have a capacity to build relationships? Yeah? Yeah,

605
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 1: we like what's going on there. I mean that could

606
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: be a result of the PTSD that he suffered from,

607
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 1: or it could be other things. I mean, the fact

608
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: that he was so obsessed that he took that out

609
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,759
Speaker 1: so seriously, to me, he's another thing I would want

610
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: to So he comes into my office, I'm gonna look

611
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 1: at his how he isolates and his how he has relationships.

612
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: I gotta look at that obsession that he had to

613
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 1: look at the trauma. I'm gonna look at the context. Um,

614
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 1: not just so seriously, but like also the idea of

615
00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: a thirteen year old boy making a vow like based

616
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: on that experience, not saying it would be fun to

617
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: be kidnapped by Indians. But there was a lot of

618
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: people who had that experience and that didn't ignite that

619
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 1: it would have been interesting to be inside of their

620
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:37,439
Speaker 1: home to see how their dad. John Wetzel just kind

621
00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 1: of who he was because all those boys just had

622
00:36:39,719 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 1: no conscience and uh so he he must have been

623
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: somehow been Yeah, I mean he clearly. I definitely don't

624
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,839
Speaker 1: think that John Wetzel was Father of the Year. I

625
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 1: think we can. I mean, we may be slow. I

626
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: just okay. There was an interesting fact that so John

627
00:36:57,960 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: Wetzel dies when Lewis what's his twenty six as dad

628
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: presumably was you know, in his forties or fifties when

629
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: he died. So Wetzel's mother remarries a guy in town,

630
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 1: so she moves back when who I mean, Louis Wetzel,

631
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: the man we're talking about, was like in his early

632
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 1: twenties when his father was killed. So his mother became

633
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:31,080
Speaker 1: a widow, and his the widow remarried. Yeah, and Louis

634
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: Wetzel never liked the guy, never forgave his mom. Didn't

635
00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:41,840
Speaker 1: now now there was there was. There's just so many

636
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: stories that are so hard to tell. Once Louis Wetzel

637
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: um witnessed a Okay, let me back up. Louis Wetzel

638
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: only one time was noted to have killed a Native

639
00:37:55,520 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: American woman. And in the way that this happened is

640
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 1: is that they did a raid. They were attacked by

641
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: Native Americans bush whacked. And I almost wanted to think

642
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 1: it was when John Wetzel and George Wetzel got killed

643
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,799
Speaker 1: his brother and father, well the other brothers go and

644
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 1: chase down the Indians that did this and engage with

645
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: them and kill the men. And they had a woman

646
00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:26,839
Speaker 1: with them, and they just were like, go on your way,

647
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: like they didn't kill women. And this woman followed Wetzel

648
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,720
Speaker 1: and tried to basically she wanted to be his wife.

649
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 1: And she followed him around and like he just kept

650
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 1: like shoeing her off. And this went on for like days,

651
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:45,800
Speaker 1: just this just like woman in town or this woman

652
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: that was to this woman in the wilderness that Wetzel

653
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 1: had just killed her people gotcha, and that would have

654
00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: been a thing inside of culture. Yeah, like like take me,

655
00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: Like if my people are dead, take me. And and

656
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 1: he ended up killing that girl, yeah, just because she

657
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:12,920
Speaker 1: wouldn't leave my mooment wild stuff. Another time, Wetzel witnessed

658
00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:17,319
Speaker 1: a he he was walking through the woods around an

659
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: Indian campan He's found an Indian baby laying on the ground. Okay, baby,

660
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 1: I mean a living baby. I mean, I'm only telling

661
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: these stories just it's like we Clay Nukelem cannot fathom

662
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: the brutality of that period and the things that he

663
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:37,719
Speaker 1: would have seen. And he as the story went, basically,

664
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,879
Speaker 1: he like picks up this Indian baby and he wasn't

665
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 1: gonna kill it, Like, he wasn't interested in killing the baby.

666
00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: And a squaw comes running out and says, oh, it's

667
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: my baby. That's my baby, And so he gives the

668
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: baby to the woman and the woman proceeds to kill

669
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 1: the baby in front of him, and then another squaw

670
00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 1: comes running out saying, oh that was my baby, and

671
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: this other squaw killed this other ladies, babe. I mean,

672
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: just brutality, NonStop brutality stories come from. Man, there's a

673
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: lot of a lot that. Okay. They did not have

674
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 1: video cameras, podcast photographs, where's the YouTube channel, But they

675
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 1: did have a lot of people. They had a lot

676
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 1: of people that were interested in documenting stuff like for instance,

677
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 1: a fair number of the stories that we have about

678
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 1: Louis Wessel came from a man named Lyman Draper, who

679
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,759
Speaker 1: is probably the most reliable source of the Frontiersman during

680
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: that time period. Lyman Draper was like, uh, you know

681
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:47,839
Speaker 1: Haraldo rivera Mr. I don't know, but Lyman Draper. If

682
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: Lyman Draper said it, it's not It doesn't mean necessary

683
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 1: that it's true, but it means that he recorded it

684
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 1: true to what was told him. And and and I'm

685
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: not saying Draper recorded that specific instance, but some of

686
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: the stuff Draper recorded but just and and some of

687
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: it probably is just a lie. There was another part

688
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 1: of the podcast that I could not tell. I mean, really,

689
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 1: the podcast could have been two hours long. Well did

690
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:21,879
Speaker 1: I tell the story about the thunderstorm dream? Okay? Now, see,

691
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: this is a story that you totally have to take

692
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt, because, I mean, who knows

693
00:41:26,360 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 1: if it happened. Louis Wets is the only one who

694
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: knows if someone made it up and told it about him.

695
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 1: But the story is so specific it's hard to fathom

696
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 1: someone just making it up because it was just I'll

697
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: tell you this story. Lewis Wetzel was being pursued by

698
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,399
Speaker 1: Native Americans. He had done something to him and they

699
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 1: were after him. Probably. So it was Tuesday, it got

700
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 1: dark and a big thunderstorm came and he knew where

701
00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 1: there was an old abandoned cabin, and so he's like, well,

702
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: I'll go stay in that abandoned cabin to not so

703
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 1: he goes in the cabin and rather than just sleeping

704
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 1: on the floor, he and this is where a backwoodsman

705
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: just earns his salt is. He said, I'm not gonna

706
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: sleep down here in the floor. I'm gonna sleep up

707
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: in the rafters just in case somebody comes in. And

708
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: so he's sleep He's just sleep in the rafters and

709
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: it starts thundering. In a couple of hours after dark.

710
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: He hears the door creak open, and here comes three

711
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: or four Native Americans that are tracking him, and they

712
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: had the same idea as him. It's thundering, storming, will

713
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,680
Speaker 1: go stay in that old cabin, And so Louis Wetzels

714
00:42:40,719 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 1: hanging in the rafters and they come in and they

715
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: start a fire, and they start talking, and he can

716
00:42:48,640 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: speak Delaware and Shawnee and multiple languages, and so he

717
00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: knew what they were saying. And he tells the story

718
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: that one of them said, I had a dream like night,

719
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 1: and he said, this Native American said that he dreamed

720
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 1: of white cheeked squaws with rosy red cheeks like buffalo

721
00:43:10,360 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: blood and eyes as black as coal, and like it

722
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 1: just it was just such a random like you can

723
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:23,640
Speaker 1: you can envision the guy sitting around the fire just saying, man,

724
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: I had a dream about you know what in his

725
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: culture was beauty and this and and you know, longing

726
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:35,879
Speaker 1: to be home probably and uh, it was just so specific.

727
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:40,560
Speaker 1: And then they spend the whole night there and then

728
00:43:40,760 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: the next morning they leave and then Wetzel goes out

729
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: and ends up killing one of them. He didn't him then,

730
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: well he he was outnumbered inside of a cabin and

731
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: he just I guess knew he was. He couldn't. That

732
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: dude didn't sleep a wink. Yeah, but do you see

733
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like that story, there's only one place

734
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 1: that could have come from. No one else was there

735
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:06,480
Speaker 1: with him, told that story to someone, and how many

736
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: times it came around. All I know is that I

737
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,240
Speaker 1: read that story some time, and I will always remember

738
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 1: white faced squalls. That's what he said. That's what white

739
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: faced squalls, with cheeks as rosy red as buffalo blood.

740
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 1: And and and they may not have said cold dog

741
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: on it. Now that I'm saying that, I'm I'm beginning

742
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: to question myself. Luckily for me, I have the book

743
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 1: right here. I don't think many people are going to

744
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,239
Speaker 1: fact check you on this. You're you're one of a

745
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: dozen people who have purchased that book in the last year.

746
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: There is so little information about Lewis Wetzel. H. Yeah,

747
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:47,840
Speaker 1: that's why Steve wanted you to look it up. He's like,

748
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 1: I'm not pouring through it. Yeah, while you look that up.

749
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,600
Speaker 1: I thought an interesting perspective was Steve talking about how

750
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: sort of the game of telephone of telling stories, and

751
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:02,160
Speaker 1: I thought, specifically of the Turkey stories. How like I

752
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: can conceive of a few guys sitting around talking about like, oh,

753
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 1: here's the story of Lewis Wetzell, and then another guy goes, oh,

754
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 1: that reminds me of another crazy Indian killing turkey story,

755
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:14,640
Speaker 1: and then a third guy sitting there goes, all right,

756
00:45:14,719 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: two stories for Louis Wetzel, you know, and goes, well,

757
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: you know, it's just very easy for that to transmutate.

758
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 1: How he left turkey tracks and didn't leave his own tracks.

759
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:30,520
Speaker 1: I didn't describe it was it was. I said, snow bank,

760
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: but it was it was a patch of snow, so

761
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:36,319
Speaker 1: he'd just walk around it. And well, now I've done

762
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:39,440
Speaker 1: that to my brother before turkey season. He didn't get

763
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,280
Speaker 1: killed a turkey from the year before. In the mud,

764
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:46,040
Speaker 1: we don't have snow. Did I say snow? He said?

765
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,640
Speaker 1: And in the dirt I was like, man, there was

766
00:45:50,719 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 1: like one turkey goblin, and I didn't want anym where

767
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: I was at. So I went to where he was at,

768
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: where he wasn't hearing one, and I made some cobler

769
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,640
Speaker 1: tracks in the road. I knew he'd find him. And

770
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: he's like, man, this turkey will not go. But I'm like, man,

771
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: just hanging there. Let me read you a little bit

772
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 1: of something that that also relates to us not knowing

773
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: about Wetzel. And here's the key reason we don't know

774
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,439
Speaker 1: about Wetzell. The long haired husky scout played on since

775
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: he no dangers twenty six at the time of athletic build,

776
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 1: especially muscular in arms and shoulders. His carefully braided hair

777
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: nodded around his shoulders when combed out would reached nearly

778
00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: to the calves of his legs. He was on the

779
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: tall order, small head, black eyes piercing in the extreme,

780
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 1: a long spare face, high cheekbones, a swarthy complexion, occasioned

781
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: in a great measure by his exposure to the sun,

782
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: and very much pitted by smallpox. So he had kind

783
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: of like acne looking, you know, kind of like um.

784
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,520
Speaker 1: And his ears bored and he wore silk tassels them

785
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: in them at times. In some other ornaments they had

786
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 1: big pierced ears, to which I just I didn't say,

787
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: very hard to look away. Active on his feet, his

788
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:08,840
Speaker 1: legs were well proportioned feet on the small order, a

789
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: penetrating mound, mind, sound judgment in regard to India encounters,

790
00:47:13,840 --> 00:47:16,720
Speaker 1: and a plan once laid, nothing could determine from putting

791
00:47:16,719 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 1: it into execution. Smart and active in all his movements,

792
00:47:20,520 --> 00:47:23,840
Speaker 1: and noted marksman. He could shoot and aim well, a

793
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 1: strong constitution and is blessed with remarkably good health, no education,

794
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 1: not capable of keeping his own journey, which is a

795
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 1: great pity. He could not even write his name. M

796
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 1: He couldn't. He couldn't even write his name. We know

797
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: a lot about Boon. We know a lot about these

798
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 1: guys because a lot of them wrote letters to their families.

799
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 1: They they wrote about what they were doing. Yeah, Gershtarger

800
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,440
Speaker 1: went and wrote a book. All these guys wrote Dave.

801
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: You know, Davy Crockett wrote his own autobiography, you know,

802
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,919
Speaker 1: um in the in not too long after this guy.

803
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: So this guy just had literally had z real education. Yeah,

804
00:48:01,719 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: it sounds like a Marvel character. It's interesting to me

805
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: how they I think back before you had pictures and videos,

806
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 1: people paid a lot of attentions and stuff. High cheekbones,

807
00:48:14,440 --> 00:48:21,319
Speaker 1: the complexions. I can just imagine people. What would you

808
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: always say about Brent overall legs, small feet? Uh? Or

809
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: do we actually have to do it? Dude. One of

810
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: the things in that description though, that stuck out to

811
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 1: me is uh in this idea of like, it's difficult

812
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: when you try and essentialize situations, but that is a

813
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:50,680
Speaker 1: human predilection to centralize things, And I think that's why

814
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,400
Speaker 1: characters like this stick around is because he's very easy

815
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,760
Speaker 1: to essentialize, like he has the singleness of purpose, which

816
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 1: is I will kill old Indians and galvanizing purpose. Personalities

817
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: often times have that like singleness of whatever it is,

818
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: like I can just this is it, this is it.

819
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 1: Let me tell you know, like two kumsa in a

820
00:49:12,520 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 1: good way, uh was Pan Indian unification, Pan Indian unification.

821
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: And so it's like very easy to tell those stories.

822
00:49:21,080 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 1: It happens to be in Lewis Wetzel's case that it's

823
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: a pretty abhorrent trait. But it's interesting when I look

824
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:30,320
Speaker 1: at people who have that singleness of purpose. It's really

825
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 1: interesting to me because I don't possess that at all.

826
00:49:33,880 --> 00:49:37,480
Speaker 1: So luckily for you guys, I found the quote the

827
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 1: thunderstorm dream. I love dreams, man. This is what he said.

828
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: This is what Wetzel said that he said, I had

829
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: a dream last night, ventured one of the Indians. I

830
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 1: dreamed I was in the happy hunting ground, and my

831
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,720
Speaker 1: lodge filled with white face squalls, each with cold black

832
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,800
Speaker 1: eyes and cheeks as red as Bison's bloo good grunted.

833
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:06,680
Speaker 1: The other I too, dreamed that a snake stung me

834
00:50:06,760 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 1: on the heel and it turned to a coal of fire,

835
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:11,919
Speaker 1: and when I tramped it and I had to put

836
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: my foot in the flame. In my sleep, ug, they

837
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:20,720
Speaker 1: bound themselves closed, rock to and fro and then we're asleep.

838
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 1: Louis Wessel Yeah, mm hmm, no dream and he got killed.

839
00:50:32,120 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 1: I dreamed, I had a dream, was gonna have a

840
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:38,960
Speaker 1: splitting headache. It is. It is hard to wrap your

841
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: mind around it. It really and you know, yeah, it's

842
00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: it's we don't know what that's like. We have no concept.

843
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 1: And I think that's I think. I think in society

844
00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:55,879
Speaker 1: is like ours. That's one of the things that makes

845
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: it so tough for soldiers to come home is that

846
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: it's so vastutely different. The lines are so blurred in

847
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 1: a time of crisis like that, and then to come

848
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:08,560
Speaker 1: home and to try to live a completely different life,

849
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:12,319
Speaker 1: it's gotta it's got to really mess with your psyche. Yeah,

850
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: Zach tell us about PTSD. So Zach gave me a

851
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 1: description of PTSD on the on on our interview, and

852
00:51:19,239 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: I wasn't able to include the whole thing, like what

853
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: should be the some of the ways that you would

854
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 1: get that, So PTSD would be UM when you go

855
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,040
Speaker 1: through basically a life threatening circumstance, right your body, like

856
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: you you're you go through some kind of life threatening circumstance,

857
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: some kind of trauma. So you know, it could be

858
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: wartime stuff. It can be like a car accident you're

859
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 1: in where it's very traumatic. It can be abuse as

860
00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: a child um And and when I say life threatening,

861
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,719
Speaker 1: I mean that's like the technical kind of component to that,

862
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 1: but it really any kind of trauma you go through that.

863
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: Uh and and basically your mind can't. It happens so fast,

864
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: it's so aggressive, it's so outside of the realm of

865
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: normal that your mind really can't process it right, So

866
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: so that the trauma just kind of gets stuck, just

867
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 1: kind of gets stuck. And so you'll see so with

868
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it's real common and very widely

869
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: known now. So like when the military guys come back,

870
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: you have a lot of flashbacks where they just feel

871
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,359
Speaker 1: like they're back in a wartime setting where you know,

872
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 1: maybe there's a loud noise outside and they for thirty

873
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: seconds they go back to some kind of wartime uh scenario.

874
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 1: Uh you have. I mean I've had clients that have

875
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 1: had hallucinations due to it, especially like childhood chronic trauma.

876
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: Right when I say chronic or complex And when I

877
00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: say chronic, I mean over a long period of time,

878
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 1: so like multiple traumas over a long period of time,

879
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,399
Speaker 1: or complex meaning like different types. Right, So you had

880
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: maybe a you know, multiple types of abuse by different people,

881
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: and it's kind of that kind of compounded on itself,

882
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:50,480
Speaker 1: so you know, it ruins life. It ruins life, and

883
00:52:50,520 --> 00:52:55,560
Speaker 1: it's really uh those with complex uh complex trauma uh

884
00:52:55,600 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: and chronic trauma. I mean it is a lifelong battle

885
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 1: that they're to link through that you'll see and I've

886
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: seen hallucinations. You see a lot of depression, a ton

887
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 1: of anxiety. That's why when you look at Louis Wetzel,

888
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,160
Speaker 1: like the fact that he isolated himselves so much, like

889
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:12,680
Speaker 1: that very well could have been a symptom of the PTSD.

890
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: Now I can't say that for sure because it could

891
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:17,480
Speaker 1: be other things as well, but so that would be

892
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,480
Speaker 1: something I would be looking at, right. Uh. It's like,

893
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:21,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you get kind of the image of the

894
00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,640
Speaker 1: war the war hero comes back and wants to go

895
00:53:24,719 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: live off, you know, in a cabin in the middle

896
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:30,440
Speaker 1: of the woods and not not know anybody because his

897
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 1: I mean that trauma just gets stuck inside you. Uh

898
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: and and it and it and it, and it's hard

899
00:53:36,040 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: to get out. It's hard to get out. How do

900
00:53:37,719 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 1: you treat it? Does what I was gonna ask? Are

901
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 1: there effective ways of Yeah? So, um, you know, um

902
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 1: lots of different opinions and thoughts on that kind of stuff. Uh.

903
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 1: Medications oftentimes are involved to manage symptoms like the depression,

904
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,120
Speaker 1: the anxiety of those kind of things. Depending. So if

905
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:55,919
Speaker 1: somebody comes in my office and they and they've got

906
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: some trauma, So what I'm gonna look at is, you know,

907
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:00,879
Speaker 1: first you want to assess it, right, are we dealing

908
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:04,960
Speaker 1: with super complex, pretty simple trauma? What are we looking at? Uh?

909
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 1: And then from there, uh, I want to assess their

910
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: capacity to uh to kind of because we really have to.

911
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: You have to, uh. I mean you've got to process

912
00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,319
Speaker 1: it and you've got to get it out right like that.

913
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 1: You have to find a way to uh. So I

914
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: will use journaling a lot with people, will go back

915
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,440
Speaker 1: through in journal doing that with Lewis what Louis Wesley

916
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: couldn't read, We'd have to talk it out with him.

917
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:30,440
Speaker 1: So uh, and so what I'm gonna do is I'm

918
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 1: gonna look at the pace we have to go at

919
00:54:32,440 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: and you want to get it, So we're gonna go

920
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 1: back and reprocess it. Oftentimes you can't. You have to

921
00:54:38,320 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: be really careful with that because you can retraumatize people

922
00:54:41,080 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 1: uh so often. So you know you'll hear that all

923
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: the time that you know, my wife tells me need

924
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 1: to talk about it. I was like, well, maybe you do,

925
00:54:46,840 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 1: maybe you don't. Let's figure this out first, or maybe

926
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: we need to go to at A at A at

927
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:54,319
Speaker 1: a slower pace than what you might go uh. And

928
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: so you're gonna I'm probably giving you too much of

929
00:54:56,480 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: an answer than you want. You can cut it all out.

930
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,000
Speaker 1: You cut it all out, but basically you're gonna go

931
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: back and reprocess it uh slowly and at A at

932
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:07,359
Speaker 1: A at an effective pace. You're going to teach them

933
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:11,640
Speaker 1: to handle it. That trauma also defined you, right, so

934
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: like it tells you things. So if you're you know,

935
00:55:13,400 --> 00:55:16,319
Speaker 1: if you're if you're you know, it tells you. Like

936
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,439
Speaker 1: so with Louis Wessel, you would go back and be like, hey,

937
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:21,719
Speaker 1: your dad lied to you Indian. You know, Native Americans

938
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 1: aren't all bad right. Uh. And so because that's that

939
00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: habit has been just ingrained inside of his mind. So

940
00:55:29,560 --> 00:55:32,279
Speaker 1: go back and fix it right where it got broke. Yeah,

941
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: So you can go back and fix the trauma, but

942
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: you still got all the bad habits, you still got

943
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,840
Speaker 1: all the behavioral things that you've dealt with over the years.

944
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:41,520
Speaker 1: And so you have to you have to process through

945
00:55:41,520 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 1: the trauma. There's different ways of doing that. Uh. Then

946
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 1: you've got to deal with the poor definers and bad

947
00:55:47,680 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 1: habits and all the things that they've built up over

948
00:55:50,120 --> 00:55:52,440
Speaker 1: the years. And then you've got to point them forward.

949
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 1: There has to be forward movement. So you can never

950
00:55:55,880 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: just stay too much in the past. You never want

951
00:55:57,680 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 1: to dwell on the past. You want to deal with

952
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 1: it and move on and so uh. And so you

953
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:04,880
Speaker 1: want to you know, if you had Wetzel in the office,

954
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 1: you deal with the trauma, You help him think differently

955
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:10,879
Speaker 1: about all the things that trauma created inside of him.

956
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 1: Who knows what it created inside of him. If you

957
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: ever actually thought about literally sitting with Louis Wetzel, like

958
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,759
Speaker 1: the Louis Wetzel in front of you, and what you

959
00:56:19,800 --> 00:56:23,080
Speaker 1: would do, what would you say to him? Uh? I

960
00:56:23,080 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 1: mean I do it every day, Clay No, But I

961
00:56:25,760 --> 00:56:29,640
Speaker 1: mean think about the actual I mean a guy that

962
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,840
Speaker 1: literally had done this and was this hardened and was

963
00:56:32,920 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: this like Yeah, I mean I've dealt with people that

964
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: have done things like that before. I mean, you just

965
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:41,359
Speaker 1: talk to him like a human being, you know, bring

966
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 1: him and you bring him in their office and you

967
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: talked to him. What have you seen? Brother? What have

968
00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 1: you mean? You just talked to him. I mean you

969
00:56:48,239 --> 00:56:49,919
Speaker 1: just talked to him just like a human. They're human

970
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 1: at the core. They're a human being, right. Uh. They've

971
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 1: been through a lot of crap. Uh. And I've never

972
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 1: met a really stiff language for therapy's podcasts. I've never

973
00:57:01,000 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: been I've never met a human being that didn't want

974
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: to get better. And you think Louis Wessel would have

975
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: wanted to have gotten better. Well, there might be a

976
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 1: selection factor here. People are walking into his ex office. Yeah, yeah,

977
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: so that's part of it. But I mean if he

978
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: if he now, he might not have wanted to stop

979
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:23,840
Speaker 1: killing Native America, but he wanted to stop the pain

980
00:57:24,080 --> 00:57:27,640
Speaker 1: that he was in. He was not a healthy human being. Yeah,

981
00:57:27,680 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: that's an interesting Well, he would have known he's in pain.

982
00:57:33,560 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: He would not know that there's something we could do

983
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:39,400
Speaker 1: about it, and he might into him the killing was

984
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: a was a was a symptom of the pain. Yeah,

985
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: I mean that's a bad habit. Yeah, I would say, Yeah,

986
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: trauma induced the lightest possible way to ever. You know,

987
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,680
Speaker 1: it wasn't like he was just as happy happy guys

988
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 1: I would get. I mean he lives by himself, doesn't

989
00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: have any friends, He's totally isolates. I mean, he's a

990
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: messed up dude. I mean, he's a messed up trying

991
00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:11,320
Speaker 1: what can we infer? Now that's assuming that you know,

992
00:58:11,480 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: we're making a ton of assumptions, but that would be

993
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,760
Speaker 1: my first go to. Right, So he's in pain and

994
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: he doesn't mean and sometimes you get so used to

995
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,480
Speaker 1: the pain you don't even know it's there, right, And

996
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:24,680
Speaker 1: so like it wouldn't know anything but a war zone.

997
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:26,960
Speaker 1: It's so much part of who he is that he

998
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: probably can't separate, it would be my guess, right. And

999
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: so if somebody like that comes in and wants to work, yeah,

1000
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:38,439
Speaker 1: absolutely you could. You could do some stuff with that.

1001
00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:42,040
Speaker 1: Now that the challenges, what do you want to work?

1002
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: All those kind of things. Yeah, so those will be

1003
00:58:45,000 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: my musings on it. Did you guys here at the

1004
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: end of the podcast that they exhumed his grave, And

1005
00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:57,160
Speaker 1: what's kind of crazy to me is that in recent

1006
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:01,000
Speaker 1: history people are treating like he's a hero. I think

1007
00:59:01,040 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: that was the listening to it. That was okay, So

1008
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 1: you could say this is a different time and murder

1009
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:09,440
Speaker 1: was much more common, killing is a war zone. You

1010
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:11,400
Speaker 1: could say all that, but it's like nineteen forty two

1011
00:59:11,440 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: people exhumed his grave to treat them like there are

1012
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 1: people alive today, that we're alive nine, I know. That's

1013
00:59:16,360 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 1: what I'm saying, that that's wild. Yeah, and I was.

1014
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:23,959
Speaker 1: I was completely guessing. I wasn't able to go back

1015
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 1: to like I couldn't find, you know, like who who

1016
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: decided to drive to Mississippi and get the whatever kind

1017
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,160
Speaker 1: of red tape they had nineteen forty two. Maybe it

1018
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 1: wasn't much to exhume the grave of Lewis Wetzel, carrying

1019
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: back to McCreary County, West Virginia and reburying and you know,

1020
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 1: they don't even know for sure that it was him

1021
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,480
Speaker 1: that they actually brought back, but they said it was

1022
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:52,960
Speaker 1: what they did. They did. But it's also it's not

1023
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: like that's in some government document or something that it's

1024
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:02,439
Speaker 1: just tradition. Might have been Larry Wetzel and they got

1025
01:00:02,440 --> 01:00:06,520
Speaker 1: the wrong right who also happened to have Gail Crystal

1026
01:00:06,560 --> 01:00:16,160
Speaker 1: Gail's linked pair. I'm just saying, especially in a probably

1027
01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 1: the kind of casket, it's a self serving like the

1028
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: guy who dug him up and moved him all the

1029
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:24,400
Speaker 1: way to West Virginia and buried him gave the account.

1030
01:00:24,520 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 1: So it's like kind of self self interest. You're not

1031
01:00:28,520 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: gonna be like, I have no idea if it was

1032
01:00:30,120 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 1: the guy. You know, all these stories maybe made up.

1033
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,560
Speaker 1: Louis Wetzel might have been the nicest guy in the world.

1034
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:40,520
Speaker 1: He might not have even existed never even brother brother

1035
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 1: just shared all these stories about him. Well, that's that's

1036
01:00:44,520 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 1: what is so hard about telling any of these stories.

1037
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: So when I was doing the stories on well, just

1038
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:57,000
Speaker 1: in all those stories that I tell, you often interview

1039
01:00:57,080 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: multiple people to tell one story, and oh, I mean

1040
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 1: even Dad, not you know Dad since mid seventies and

1041
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: now I'm you know, forty something, and we tell stories

1042
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: different now that happened to us at the same time

1043
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: in the same place, Like the two of you tell different,

1044
01:01:16,280 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: he says. He says, no, it didn't happen like that.

1045
01:01:18,880 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 1: And I'm like, it happened like that, Dad, That's what happened.

1046
01:01:24,160 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 1: I mean, it has me questioning myself and and just

1047
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,120
Speaker 1: how quickly. And then this is hundreds of years ago

1048
01:01:32,760 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: and it's come down through so many people who have

1049
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: polished the story, I mean, and and kind of maybe

1050
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 1: just told a little different or told it easier, or

1051
01:01:40,640 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 1: told it with a little different emphasis or a little

1052
01:01:42,680 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 1: different narrative. And that's why I like, it's really fun

1053
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:51,400
Speaker 1: when you find a really hardcore story that is just

1054
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: vetted from so many different places. And that's why Daniel

1055
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 1: Boone is such a cool guy because his life was

1056
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:03,240
Speaker 1: incredibly well documented for the time period, like unbelievably well documented,

1057
01:02:03,280 --> 01:02:06,640
Speaker 1: which was unusual. So that's part of what makes Boon

1058
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:08,960
Speaker 1: who he was is we just simply knew who he was.

1059
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 1: We had all these different things, which is like guys

1060
01:02:11,720 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: like Wetsel, we don't um, Brent, why don't you finish

1061
01:02:15,720 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 1: this out reading the ballot of Louis Wetzel? So this

1062
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 1: is a this is a poem by Philip somebody, The

1063
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:25,080
Speaker 1: Life and Times of Louis Wetzel. This is a poem

1064
01:02:25,400 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 1: entitled The Ballad of Louis Wetzell by Glenn Baker. My

1065
01:02:30,160 --> 01:02:33,720
Speaker 1: parents came from sturdy stock. They were tall, brown and people,

1066
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 1: and Mary with the keen eyes sight of the soaring hawk,

1067
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: and lips like the red hull berry, horny handed folk

1068
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:47,560
Speaker 1: injured two toll they marched in the Pioneer. That's what

1069
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 1: that said. And I could not read it fast enough,

1070
01:02:53,040 --> 01:02:57,200
Speaker 1: but that's what it said. Carry on. It means callous hands,

1071
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:04,920
Speaker 1: callous handed folk, h inard to toll. They marched in

1072
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 1: the Pioneer legion to carve a home from the Virgin

1073
01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 1: soul of Virginia's far Morth farthermost region. And I was

1074
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: born on the wilderness road in a tawny sunlit clearing.

1075
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 1: I cut my teeth on ox and gold and had

1076
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: a backwoods rearing. And I remember the cabin there, and

1077
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,920
Speaker 1: the clearing on the big wheeling, the coarse but wholesome

1078
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:30,320
Speaker 1: Pioneer fair, and the herbs that hung from the ceiling.

1079
01:03:35,040 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 1: I keep waiting for this, and Merry Christmas to all

1080
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,480
Speaker 1: and all, good night, and childhood years when days were

1081
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:44,600
Speaker 1: long and the first spring winds were blowing my mother

1082
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:47,400
Speaker 1: humming an old Wells song, and my father bent to

1083
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:50,920
Speaker 1: his hoeing. And then one day the Indians came and

1084
01:03:51,000 --> 01:03:55,080
Speaker 1: with their inhuman yells and laughter, and our cabin blazed

1085
01:03:55,120 --> 01:03:59,320
Speaker 1: with rifle flame and smoke went to the rafters, but

1086
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 1: the walls were staunch, and the red men fled in.

1087
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,439
Speaker 1: The days flowed on as before, until I grew too

1088
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: tall for a trundle bed, and I slept on the

1089
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: punching floor. And so I came to my tall manhood

1090
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: with a woodman's knowledge and daring, and so with a

1091
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:21,479
Speaker 1: rifle for livelihood, I started my forest faring. And once

1092
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: I was turned the homeward way across the trail of

1093
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 1: some savages, and hurried on through the dying day, sensing

1094
01:04:29,240 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: a scene of red savages. And when I came to

1095
01:04:33,520 --> 01:04:36,440
Speaker 1: the clearing there, when the path of maize was greening,

1096
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:40,000
Speaker 1: I saw my mother tearing her hair and walking the

1097
01:04:40,040 --> 01:04:44,080
Speaker 1: woods with her keening, and my father's form so still

1098
01:04:44,080 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: in cold, with the riving skull that was hairless, and

1099
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:52,360
Speaker 1: all the remains of a loved household shattered by red

1100
01:04:52,440 --> 01:04:56,200
Speaker 1: hands and careless. And over the grave we dug that

1101
01:04:56,320 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 1: night in the raw rich frontier clay. I swore an

1102
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:04,320
Speaker 1: to harry and blight the Red race. By night and day,

1103
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:08,840
Speaker 1: I swore it there as the forest gloomed forbidding and

1104
01:05:08,960 --> 01:05:13,600
Speaker 1: darkened its silence, a savage oath that forever doomed us

1105
01:05:13,640 --> 01:05:17,320
Speaker 1: all to a life of violence. And many a red

1106
01:05:17,360 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 1: brave homeward bound from the latest scene of his pillage,

1107
01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:24,760
Speaker 1: heard in the forest and moaning sound, and died within

1108
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:32,520
Speaker 1: sight of his village. And there's more. For Thus I

1109
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,280
Speaker 1: played on the red man's fear as I blew through

1110
01:05:35,320 --> 01:05:39,320
Speaker 1: my rifle bore, warning him with his end was near,

1111
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:42,920
Speaker 1: with the death wind of border lore. And down the

1112
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 1: years I kept my vow till the Red tribes westward,

1113
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:50,320
Speaker 1: turning left this valley to settler and plow in freedom

1114
01:05:50,360 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: from pillage and burning. And time rolled on, and my

1115
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:56,440
Speaker 1: breath was stilled, and they laid me away to the

1116
01:05:56,520 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 1: long rest. But even in death, my spirit willed to

1117
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:04,800
Speaker 1: continue on with the long quest. So still I followed

1118
01:06:04,800 --> 01:06:07,640
Speaker 1: the trail of braves and the written and wraith like.

1119
01:06:07,840 --> 01:06:10,919
Speaker 1: Still I go stealing over the hands they o how

1120
01:06:11,160 --> 01:06:15,640
Speaker 1: laves in the Cincinnati to the big wheeling, And on

1121
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 1: autumn nights, when the dark winds carol and thunderstorms, roll

1122
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,960
Speaker 1: and rally. You can hear me blow through my rifle

1123
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:26,600
Speaker 1: barrel the length of the o how valley, Thus say,

1124
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,720
Speaker 1: Louis whistle? Pretty dark? What do you think, Missy? It's

1125
01:06:30,760 --> 01:06:41,040
Speaker 1: just weird to hear something that dark rhymed? And when

1126
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:43,680
Speaker 1: when was that? When was that written? I don't know.

1127
01:06:43,720 --> 01:06:47,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't find when it was written. I'm sorry. It

1128
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:50,640
Speaker 1: feels like like a Christmas story that you would read

1129
01:06:50,680 --> 01:06:54,480
Speaker 1: to your kids, especially with Brent's voice, and it's like,

1130
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: this is really the worst thing I've ever just just

1131
01:07:00,000 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: describe the time, I mean, the the that's and that's

1132
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 1: the whole point I think this is to me or

1133
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:08,640
Speaker 1: just kind of like the takeaway. It's just like it was.

1134
01:07:09,480 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 1: It was a war zone, and then it's interesting to

1135
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 1: feel like that could be normal to just have in

1136
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: your sights a race of people to just annihilate. But

1137
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 1: and you know, and they and he told why they

1138
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:24,800
Speaker 1: were mad at him. I mean, they burned his cabin

1139
01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: and they I mean, you think about it, it really

1140
01:07:29,920 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: is a singular perspective because you think about it from

1141
01:07:33,040 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 1: the perspective of a Native American people, and you know,

1142
01:07:37,000 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 1: coming in and killing people and taking people and taking

1143
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 1: your things. Of course you're going to retaliate, you know.

1144
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: So it's it's uh man, it's hard when when the

1145
01:07:48,200 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 1: perspectives are so so spread apart and there's there's a

1146
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 1: no opportunity for really humans mess things up. I mean,

1147
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: that's one thing. You can look at theth and realize

1148
01:08:00,880 --> 01:08:05,560
Speaker 1: that humans mess things up. Yeah, and uh, you know,

1149
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:09,240
Speaker 1: but the redemption is is that all it takes for

1150
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:12,680
Speaker 1: things to get right is for people to start making

1151
01:08:12,760 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: one right decision after another. I mean, that's the that's

1152
01:08:17,200 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 1: the that's the golden ticket that we have as humans,

1153
01:08:19,880 --> 01:08:23,800
Speaker 1: as we get to decide how we how we forecast

1154
01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:25,559
Speaker 1: our life in terms of the way that we think

1155
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:28,840
Speaker 1: about other people. And and you know, these kind of

1156
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:31,439
Speaker 1: stories to give me empathy for people that I know

1157
01:08:31,960 --> 01:08:37,280
Speaker 1: live in a completely different philosophical place or have a

1158
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 1: different worldview because you can see I mean, I don't

1159
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:45,960
Speaker 1: want to we know which side was really in the

1160
01:08:46,000 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 1: wrong and the macro picture, I mean, just the side

1161
01:08:48,400 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: that was committing genocide and pushing the people out of

1162
01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: their ancestral lands, like that's not up for debate. But

1163
01:08:54,040 --> 01:08:57,400
Speaker 1: at the same time, you see why these people love

1164
01:08:57,479 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: Lewis Wetzel. It's like there there there in a war

1165
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: zone and their enemy. He protected them from them. But

1166
01:09:03,200 --> 01:09:05,639
Speaker 1: you go to the other side and you see these

1167
01:09:05,760 --> 01:09:09,080
Speaker 1: the Native Americans perspective of you know, these people came

1168
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:11,400
Speaker 1: in and we're taking our land and we had no

1169
01:09:11,560 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 1: choice and we had to fight. And basically you just

1170
01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 1: see that your perspective is not the only one. Lui.

1171
01:09:19,680 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: Luis Wessel was taken one thing off of the list

1172
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:28,439
Speaker 1: that was out to hurt those folks, you know, they

1173
01:09:28,439 --> 01:09:30,759
Speaker 1: were it was a big enough struggle just finding something

1174
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 1: to eat, raise your kids, you know, up to where

1175
01:09:34,439 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 1: they would live, where they could help that they had

1176
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:41,240
Speaker 1: to look up to that guy or they you see

1177
01:09:41,280 --> 01:09:43,800
Speaker 1: the reason why they did, because he was taking one

1178
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 1: one fear away from, you know, something that they could

1179
01:09:47,800 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 1: they could check the box off and say, Okay, we

1180
01:09:49,560 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 1: don't have to worry about that today because Lewis's making

1181
01:09:52,960 --> 01:09:55,240
Speaker 1: the rounds out there, we can we can focus on

1182
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,559
Speaker 1: trying to get this corn to grow, which was something

1183
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,559
Speaker 1: mentioned about corn and that poll them I just read, so,

1184
01:10:02,520 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you see it, Debbie, doesn't make it right.

1185
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 1: But you see where those folks they were in that

1186
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 1: space at that time, and that was something that they

1187
01:10:08,880 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: had to worry about, and he was alleviating some of

1188
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,679
Speaker 1: that pain. You know, listening to Breton talk it makes

1189
01:10:14,720 --> 01:10:18,240
Speaker 1: me think about you know, our society these these days

1190
01:10:18,360 --> 01:10:22,400
Speaker 1: is so polarized, and you've the older I get, the

1191
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 1: more I recognize that the answer is not found in

1192
01:10:25,280 --> 01:10:28,760
Speaker 1: the extremes, you know what I mean. The answer is

1193
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:31,679
Speaker 1: found in the principle of things, not in I mean,

1194
01:10:31,800 --> 01:10:35,760
Speaker 1: Louis Wetzel was extreme. He saw this thing that he

1195
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:39,400
Speaker 1: perceived as a threat, as a something that needed to

1196
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:44,680
Speaker 1: be annihilated, and he went hardcore extreme and uh, and

1197
01:10:44,720 --> 01:10:47,720
Speaker 1: then you have I'm sure you had people on the

1198
01:10:47,800 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 1: Native American side that's like, let's wipe all these white

1199
01:10:50,479 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 1: men out because they're destroying our lands. And the answer

1200
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 1: is not found in the extremes. Yep. Well, thanks for

1201
01:10:59,760 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 1: kinding Zack. Yeah, it's fun. I appreciate it. So we

1202
01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:05,960
Speaker 1: may be giving us written diagnoses of all our problems

1203
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 1: diagnosed Brent, every real quick. You guys will all be

1204
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:11,639
Speaker 1: getting a bill in the mail. First of all, pay

1205
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 1: that promptly, and the diagnosis tattoos. What's that tell you

1206
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:22,040
Speaker 1: about a man? Isaac Nail's cart secure. I'm just noticing

1207
01:11:22,320 --> 01:11:25,320
Speaker 1: really secure with his legs. He does, like show a

1208
01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 1: lot of leg I'm going to say the lack of color.

1209
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,080
Speaker 1: That's what I would ask him. It's monochromatic. What do

1210
01:11:31,080 --> 01:11:35,479
Speaker 1: you mean I don't have any color? Tattoos grow black ink. Yeah,

1211
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: that's cool, I'm asking about it. Fascinating part of Isaac's

1212
01:11:40,360 --> 01:11:43,559
Speaker 1: tattoos is how much forethought he put into them. Okay,

1213
01:11:43,640 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 1: some of them, a lot, some of them. Some of them. Yeah,

1214
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:50,080
Speaker 1: I saw that in the book and thought it look cool.

1215
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 1: Are you gonna get a tattoo of me on your somewhere?

1216
01:11:54,120 --> 01:12:02,240
Speaker 1: Are you finding it? Sure? Yes, don't do this. This

1217
01:12:02,320 --> 01:12:04,240
Speaker 1: is bad. Look you can put that picture of me

1218
01:12:04,280 --> 01:12:08,040
Speaker 1: shooting that bear. See that picture in that nice picture? Now?

1219
01:12:08,120 --> 01:12:12,040
Speaker 1: I like the one with your kid on your back. Okay, yeah,

1220
01:12:12,080 --> 01:12:13,839
Speaker 1: I don't want you to put my kids on tattoo.

1221
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 1: I'll blur out the face sticks. It would be cool

1222
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 1: to have a brand tattoo, though. Who doesn't have one?

1223
01:12:25,479 --> 01:12:33,240
Speaker 1: I want a life size. We're working on it. Be good, Well,

1224
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,599
Speaker 1: all right, excellent guys. Well, next bear greases are going

1225
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:40,360
Speaker 1: to be different than this one a little more. The

1226
01:12:40,400 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 1: death wind, we're pulling ourselves out of the arc of darkness.

1227
01:12:45,160 --> 01:12:47,880
Speaker 1: Good bringing it back. He was really poetic. How you

1228
01:12:47,920 --> 01:12:49,720
Speaker 1: said that at the end. By the way, Yeah, there

1229
01:12:49,720 --> 01:12:52,360
Speaker 1: were a couple of points in this in this podcast

1230
01:12:52,400 --> 01:12:54,920
Speaker 1: that I had I had thoughts about. But what did

1231
01:12:54,920 --> 01:12:57,120
Speaker 1: I say? Yeah, you just talked about coming out to

1232
01:12:57,160 --> 01:13:02,599
Speaker 1: the arc of darkness. Mr Ers, Mr Rodgers, Yeah, I'm

1233
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,880
Speaker 1: looking forward to Minster Rodgers podcast. Thanks guys. Keep the

1234
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: wild place as wild.