1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:26,840 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Well, 2 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: welcome back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as 3 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,519 Speaker 1: always so much for tuning in. That's our super producer, 4 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: the one and only Max Williams. Give it up for him. 5 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 1: My name is Ben Um and I owe you Noelan 6 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:48,160 Speaker 1: Max a personal thank you for not ostracizing me even 7 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: though I totally dipped out of town for a minute. Well, Ben, 8 00:00:51,720 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: I mean everybody deserves to get away, to fly away. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 9 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:04,880 Speaker 1: well that could yeah, that could be that. I like that. 10 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:07,960 Speaker 1: I like that idea. I think maybe one of the 11 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 1: important things here is that I left temporarily and largely 12 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: of my own volition. I'd say about of my own volition. 13 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: I didn't get kicked out. Have you guys ever got 14 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: kicked out of anything? Questions? Kicked out? I once? Uh no? Yeah? Gosh, Max, 15 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:32,840 Speaker 1: how about you? You know, and you've ever been asked 16 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: politely to leave? Oh? Politely? And I'm politely? Um. Okay. 17 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: If if our friends Phil and Nathaniel are listening, they 18 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: can remember us at a bar on King Street in Charleston, 19 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 1: South Carolina a few years ago. Yeah, we got asked 20 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: very unpolitely to leave, and we totally well, they were fine. 21 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: I totally deserved to be asked unpolitely to leave. Did 22 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: you put up a fight or did you go h quietly? 23 00:01:59,680 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: And Dark Knight was pretty quietly. Okay, no, no, no, 24 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 1: it wasn't karaoke. It was just uh, yeah, I deserved it. 25 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,200 Speaker 1: I a bartender who was at that bar. If you're listening, 26 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: I am sorry. I know you don't know who I am, 27 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: but I am sorry. Max with the past, I love it. Um. 28 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: I think we've all found ourselves, sometimes at one point 29 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 1: or another, in some kind of situation where we don't 30 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 1: feel comfortable. And uh, we have maybe found ourselves in 31 00:02:28,320 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: a situation where one reason or another we're asked to leave, 32 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:36,080 Speaker 1: sometimes politely like Noel said, sometimes not politely like Max said. 33 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: And uh, you know, I just think there's some jobs 34 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 1: where no matter what you do, you're not gonna please everyone, 35 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: like the job of being the president. I would say anything, 36 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: not just the US. Uh, you'll have people who want 37 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: you to g t FO And today's episode is about 38 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:59,880 Speaker 1: what one of the um processes are, the concepts that 39 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: the very way like very early days of democracy, the 40 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: government in ancient Greece figured out their own solution to 41 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: this problem over in Athens, right now, Yeah, that's right. 42 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean we think of the word ostracized today and 43 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: it has kind of um connotations of maybe just sort 44 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: of given someone the cold shoulder, you know, like not 45 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 1: letting someone hang in your click anymore. And you don't 46 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 1: do it like as a formal thing. It just sort 47 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: of happens. You sort of ghosted right over time you 48 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: start to realize, oh, my homies are not my homies anymore, 49 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: and I am sort of left alone because I see 50 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,200 Speaker 1: them hanging out in the lunch room or or the 51 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: quad or whatever, um hell, and by the water cooler, 52 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: and they are no longer including me. It is a 53 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 1: form of excluding. But in ancient Greece and Athens, like 54 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: you said, this was essentially a borderline, codified solution to 55 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: keeping demagogues from rearing their ugly heads in politics, where 56 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,240 Speaker 1: there was a rule built into Athenian civilization Athenian society 57 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: that allowed them to exile fellow citizen for ten years 58 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: if it was decided unanimously. I will get to the 59 00:04:13,800 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 1: official means of doing this, but if it was to 60 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,599 Speaker 1: side decided animously that they were a disruption essentially, like 61 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: you know, we're gonna have to ask you to leave 62 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: for a decade, which is not an insignificant amount of time. 63 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 1: That's like a prison sentence. Yeah, and you know if 64 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:34,799 Speaker 1: you if you spend your ten years in the figurative 65 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 1: quarter and you're still alive, then maybe you can come 66 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 1: back and be a little better behaved. This is crazy, 67 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 1: we've got some I like the way that New York 68 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: Daily News put it when they said this is an 69 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: unpopularity context, because yeah, there's no trial, there's no investigation. 70 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: A bunch of people get together and they say this 71 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:02,479 Speaker 1: guy's a really pill or this person could be a 72 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: danger to our democracy, teld them to get out. And 73 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: that specific phrase is also mentioned in the unpopularity contest 74 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: is kind of also alluded to in Smithsonian mag when 75 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 1: they quote historian James Sickener of Florida State. He argues 76 00:05:20,960 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: that this was a way to get rid of, like 77 00:05:24,160 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: you said, an old demagogues, potential tyrants, people who could 78 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:34,560 Speaker 1: damage or subvert the new fragile idea of democracy. This 79 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: is what we're saying is you might have people who say, hey, 80 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: I felt ostracized from a social circle, or you might 81 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 1: have someone who's like, oh, I was outside of this 82 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: hotel and I felt ostracized standing in the smoking corner 83 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 1: or something like that. Right, but this is way different, 84 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: and this was uh something something that really also arguably 85 00:05:57,680 --> 00:06:00,919 Speaker 1: subverted the law because again, you were not guilty of 86 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: a criminal offense. They were not like, we are ostracizing 87 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: you get out of town for ten years because you 88 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: know you violated the what what you violated the Toga 89 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 1: length law or something like that. Well, it could be that, Ben, 90 00:06:15,560 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: It could be that because it was but but again 91 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: not specifically about a crime, more about going against norms 92 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: and and things that enough people agreed was um disruptive 93 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: again that word again, disruptive, which is really really interesting 94 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: because it's really incredibly incredibly difficult, if not impossible, to 95 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 1: do that in our political system. You know, it requires 96 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: essentially voting someone out of office and then they have 97 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 1: the upper hand because aside from impeachment, which we know 98 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: doesn't work ever. I mean, you can certainly, you know, 99 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: enact impeachment proceedings, but I don't know that we've ever 100 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: seen it happen officially in our lifetime other than you know, 101 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: with Nixon, he didn't he he would have been impeached 102 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: if he had not resigned, you know, he would have 103 00:06:57,440 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: been officially removed from office. We always misconstrued idea of 104 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: being impeached with being removed from office as a result 105 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 1: of impeachment proceedings. Right, but this only required a vote 106 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 1: of six thousand individuals in the entire society, which I mean, 107 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 1: I'm sure population had to play a play a role 108 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: in this, but to have someone ostracized, and again, according 109 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: to historian James Sickinger of Florida, stay who you cited earlier, Ben, 110 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: this happened at least a dozen times between four hundred 111 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 1: and eight seven to four hundred and sixteen BC. Yeah, yeah, 112 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,760 Speaker 1: And the point of making with that Toga reference is 113 00:07:37,800 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: that what I'm emphasizing here is they were not found 114 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:47,120 Speaker 1: guilty legally offense uh this vote. And and of course, yes, 115 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: this is ancient Greece, this is Athens, so it's not 116 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: as though everybody could vote this. This idea was. It 117 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: took place as soon after the Athenian forces one the 118 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: Battle of Marathon against Persian forces in four nine b C. 119 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: And they were trying to curb the power of any 120 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,480 Speaker 1: rising tyrant. And this is. Historians believe that this is 121 00:08:18,560 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: partially due to the fact that they're old tyrant hippieus 122 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: have been thrown out years earlier. And when he was 123 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 1: thrown out, this guy get this. He went with the 124 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 1: Persian fleet to the Battle of Marathon, and he hoped 125 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: that when the Persians won, he would be uh he 126 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: would be in charge of Athens, who would be reinstalled 127 00:08:40,240 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 1: in power and Athens even though most of the people 128 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: didn't want him. There a word about the voting. If 129 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: you're a citizen in the city state of Athens around 130 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,040 Speaker 1: this time, that means that you are not for and born, 131 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: you are not a slave, and you are not a woman. 132 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: So even though the total number of citizens could be 133 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: as high as sixty thousand, there was also just like today, 134 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: even though there are a lot of people in the 135 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:12,840 Speaker 1: US who can vote, they're relatively few as percentage of 136 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: the population who actually do right. So this was think 137 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,679 Speaker 1: of the voters here as the people who really had 138 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: an acts to grind. But how many you said there were? Um, 139 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: he said, there were dozens. That this happened too, But 140 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: was it was it based on like personal beef? Ever, 141 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: it seems hard to get six thousand people to have 142 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 1: your back just because you know, you don't like the 143 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: guy who stole your girl at the dance or something. Yeah, 144 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 1: I don't think so. It seems uh, you're right, I mean, 145 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: that seems like a high enough number. It'd be kind 146 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: of hard to rig it. I mean, I'm sure many tried, 147 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,680 Speaker 1: because it certainly seemed like a real, full proof way 148 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 1: of getting rid of a political rival, you know, if 149 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,320 Speaker 1: you wanted to, or I imagine perhaps scandals could have 150 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: been trumped up perhaps or in the same way that 151 00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: you know, a political rival might hire you know, a 152 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:08,320 Speaker 1: private detective to photograph someone in like compromised situation that 153 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: maybe the reality of isn't necessarily matching what the picture 154 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: would be. Um, that's very vague, but I think you 155 00:10:14,760 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, Like, there's there's ways of making 156 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,680 Speaker 1: people look bad when they actually didn't do anything wrong. 157 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: So that certainly could have happened too. And if you 158 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,319 Speaker 1: can sway enough people public opinion, I think that's what 159 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: the six thousand represents, right then the six thousand is 160 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: a microcosm of the greater population that represents public opinion. Yeah. Yeah, 161 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: and maybe we could talk a little bit about the 162 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: process here. Once a year, everybody would get together and 163 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 1: decide whether or not to ostracize people, and they didn't 164 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: have to just choose one person. It's theoretically possible that 165 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: six thousand male citizens could have gotten together and said, 166 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: let's kick out winning four people because you know, we 167 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: don't like them. So first there would be a popular 168 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: assembly of athletes, the ecclesia, and what During the ecclesia, 169 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,080 Speaker 1: about six thousand male citizens would vote whether or not 170 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: to proceed with ostracization by just raising their right hand, 171 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,120 Speaker 1: so you could kind of just read the room when 172 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,320 Speaker 1: you looked out in the crowd, unless it was very um, 173 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: I guess, unless it was very tense. I feel like, 174 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: if you asked for the vote and it looked like 175 00:11:30,679 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 1: everybody was raising your hand, then you've you've got the 176 00:11:33,520 --> 00:11:36,880 Speaker 1: vote to go forward to the special meeting known as 177 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: the Austra Couporia, which was the without getting to the 178 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 1: weeds of the calendar that was that was the next step, 179 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,480 Speaker 1: and then the voting was supervised by council of five 180 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: people and nine highest officials in the land who are 181 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: known as the archons so Ben I mean there were 182 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: factions in these days, or I mean, this is the 183 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 1: earliest days of democracy. So there were parties, you could say. 184 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,719 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, they always have been as long 185 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: as people have agreed to do things in a certain way, 186 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: people have disagreed, you know, so I imagined, But I 187 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: imagine that six thousand correct me if I'm wrong, would 188 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: have been made up of not just rivals of that individual, 189 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: and I would have had to be some sort of coalition, right, 190 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:22,959 Speaker 1: some sort of across the aisle type situation. Otherwise it 191 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,680 Speaker 1: would be just kind of a railroad job. Yeah, that's 192 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: a really good point, because it would be it would 193 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: be strange to imagine that these six thousand people all 194 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: got along together on everything. But when it was time 195 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: to do the vote, the vote was anonymous, something that 196 00:12:38,840 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: Athens figured out way before the U S. If you've 197 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,720 Speaker 1: heard our our earlier episodes of voting in this country. 198 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: They they took this piece of broken pottery and they 199 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: scratched the name of the person that they wanted ostracized 200 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 1: onto the piece of pottery. And a lot of this 201 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:05,360 Speaker 1: is coming from a gath a dot g R, which 202 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: has a great breakdown of how this worked, as well 203 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: as pictures of actual pottery shards where they would write 204 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: the names, and so they were where election officials or 205 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: I guess voting officials who would collect these pieces of 206 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: broken pottery and make sure that nobody was trying to 207 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: rig the vote and vote, you know, multiple times. If 208 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: there was a minimum of six thousand votes cast, then 209 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 1: the officials would announce which person had amassed the most 210 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: votes and then boom, that person is kicked out exile. 211 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 1: You cannot appeal this, but really uncontestable. You get like 212 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: they tell you, uh, they give you a little bit 213 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 1: of time to get your stuff together and high tailor right. 214 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: I think they give you ten days to your ten 215 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: years to get your stuff together and get out of dodge. 216 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: By the way, a gath a dot g are is 217 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,040 Speaker 1: the website of the American School of Classical Studies at Athens, 218 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 1: and overall is just a really really cool, rich resource. 219 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,400 Speaker 1: Highly recommended if you're into like this kind of classical studies. 220 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 1: But I mean, this would have been the kiss of death, dude, 221 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 1: can you imagine? Yeah, it's when you put it that way, 222 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: of like a day for each year, that that sounds 223 00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 1: really difficult. It is interesting that you still get to 224 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: keep your citizenship and apparently your personal property is not 225 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 1: confiscated at least according to the letter of the process, 226 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: the letter of the law. But I don't know how 227 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: much that actually held true in real life. Because someone's 228 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,840 Speaker 1: gone for ten years, does that mean that your family 229 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: stays on your estate and looks after your property or something. 230 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: Is it like a situation where you know, your partner 231 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:57,840 Speaker 1: or your kids are like, hey, will try try to 232 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: visit you. Is that and allowed? Would that make them lepers, 233 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,720 Speaker 1: you know essentially, or make them ostracized by default? We 234 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't really see anything in the research to my knowledge 235 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: that imposes this you know, fate on family members. But 236 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: we know that does happen. There's certainly plenty of situations 237 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: where I mean, hell, this is actually pretty progressive. You know. 238 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:23,720 Speaker 1: Typically when you think of this kind of situations where 239 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: there's you know, political beef or you know, someone is 240 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,520 Speaker 1: seen as a as an undesirable usually they're just killed 241 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 1: along with their family and all of their heirs. This 242 00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: is like a pretty thoughtful way of doing business. Yeah, 243 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: it is. It seems surprisingly progressive. If you if you're 244 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 1: ostracized but you're not like guilty of a crime, you 245 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: don't go to jail, you don't get tortured, you don't 246 00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: get fined. Ten years go by, if you're still alive, 247 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: you can come back. And if you were in office 248 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: when you got ostracized, you can still come back to politics. 249 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: And what happens, right, if you're like you're up for 250 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:03,320 Speaker 1: ostratization and they ultimately don't vote to ostracize you, you 251 00:16:03,360 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 1: can stay. You can just kick it. And then apparently 252 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 1: this is the weirdest part, Well, this is one of 253 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: the weirdest parts. Apparently after you voted, after you turn 254 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: in your pottery shard, and after everything was counted, these 255 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: things which were called ostraca were just thrown in the street. 256 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: And so people who have been conducting excavations in Athens 257 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:32,800 Speaker 1: have found thousands, like eleven thousand examples of these broken 258 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: pottery votes. And this is like a window into the 259 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: power politics of the day. And I'm sure stute ridiculous 260 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: historians have put this together already. But the term ostracized 261 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: came from the term for this pottery, which was a 262 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: very very uh durable baked pottery called ostraca. Like you said, ostracized, 263 00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: and yeah, you're right, I mean eleven thousand examples of 264 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:05,200 Speaker 1: these means that they were far more votes than actual ostracizations, 265 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 1: like successful votes. Right, yeah, yeah, And this is interesting 266 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: because back to our historian Sickensure here, he says that 267 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 1: written ballots were kind of unusual in Athenian democracy, and uh, 268 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: during assemblies where people voted on laws, you just you 269 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 1: typically did what they did in the first stage of 270 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: the ostracization vote. You just raised your hands. So if 271 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: you think about it, these bits of pottery are hidden, 272 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:44,080 Speaker 1: broken shards of history that often weren't noticed by the 273 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: ancient sources of the time or the contemporary sources of 274 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: that time, because it's like, why would you write in 275 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 1: depth about a vote that ultimately didn't result in something dramatic, Right, 276 00:17:56,080 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: that's just day to day. Uh, And you know, people 277 00:18:00,040 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: like people had Maximilian Uh william As sees here we go, 278 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,360 Speaker 1: all right, whatever, Macks, we're going with it. And and uh, 279 00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: they had that guy off for ostracization, but he didn't 280 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: get the votes for the unpopularity contest. He's fine, why 281 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,360 Speaker 1: would you write about it? We're done, we did the process, 282 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: the process worked, We're thrown away our pottery shards. Um, 283 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:27,639 Speaker 1: that does seem incredibly progressive for the time. I agree with, 284 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: you knowl but we also found that there were some 285 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 1: examples of abuse of the system, didn't we Yeah, we 286 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 1: we do see that. And I just want to point 287 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: out too at this point that this I said, this 288 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: was a kiss of death, and it certainly could have been, 289 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 1: but there were plenty of examples of folks that returned 290 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: and we're able to kind of you know, get back 291 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,040 Speaker 1: into life, you know, almost like getting out of prison 292 00:18:50,040 --> 00:18:53,639 Speaker 1: and being assimilated back into you know, civilized society or whatever. 293 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: But like I said earlier, I mean, it wasn't impossible 294 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: to game this system. We do have historical evidence of 295 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: you know, small sects of of of people that kind 296 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: of colluded against the policies of a particular person. Because again, 297 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:13,920 Speaker 1: the fact they were able to return back to society 298 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 1: after their ostracization does seem to indicate that this is 299 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: more about voting against people's politics rather than the people themselves, right, Yeah. Yeah, 300 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like this isn't a perfect comparison. 301 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: But you know, sometimes you'll talk to people who are 302 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: voting in the US and they're saying, well, I'm not 303 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: really voting for this one candidate and voting against the 304 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,119 Speaker 1: other one, you know, and you're like, somebody might vote 305 00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: to ostracize a certain individual in ancient Athens. But what 306 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: they're really, what they're really doing, is they're voting against 307 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: the policies. And when they vote against that person, what 308 00:19:58,119 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: they're they're doing is support the rival policy or the 309 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: rival idea. But then also, people were much the same 310 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: then as they are today. There's one funny, petty thing 311 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: here in plutarch uh in his biography of Aristides, he 312 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:22,480 Speaker 1: says there was one guy who voted against Aristides the 313 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:26,439 Speaker 1: just just because he got tired of the guy having 314 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 1: the nickname the Just. So it's like, imagine you're deciding 315 00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:34,159 Speaker 1: not to vote for someone because you're like, I don't know, 316 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 1: I think it's tie is pretentious. I think it's Tie 317 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:41,679 Speaker 1: insist upon himself. Um, I don't like the cut of 318 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: his jib. That's basically it. You could vote to kick 319 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: someone out for ten years because you don't like the 320 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: cut of their jip. That's absolutely right then. And one 321 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: example of potential abuse of the system was in the 322 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: unearth thing of one hundred and ninety pieces of this 323 00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 1: Astraca pottery in a well near the Acropolis of Athens, 324 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 1: which we all know and love, that amazing piece of architecture. 325 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: Um and the name the mysticallys was written on all 326 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: of them, but it was clear that it was done 327 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:18,120 Speaker 1: by just a few people's hands, just a few different 328 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:22,520 Speaker 1: examples of handwriting. So they must have rigged it in 329 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 1: some way. Uh, done a little ballot box stuffing as 330 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: it were. Right, Yeah, And first off, I think that's hilarious. 331 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: I don't know why they did it, but it's such 332 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:40,240 Speaker 1: an obvious case of cheating. I do have to begrudgingly 333 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:43,720 Speaker 1: note that they put some work into it, because scratching 334 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:46,480 Speaker 1: that name in the pottery is tougher than just filling 335 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 1: in a little bubble with a with a number two pencil, 336 00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 1: or or just writing something on papers. So they thought 337 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: about it, and they had to scratch all that name 338 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: a hundred and ninety times. But uh, maybe it's people 339 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: handing out pre written votes. I think that's one of 340 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: the speculations, you know, and we have so many Well, 341 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,399 Speaker 1: as we said, there are cases where this system worked. 342 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: We know that the first, like actual real life ostracism 343 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:23,919 Speaker 1: wasn't held until four eighties seven b C. When a 344 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: guy named Hipparcus who was related to the tyrant we 345 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,399 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top, Hippieus. He became the first person 346 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: who was successfully exiled through the process of ostracism. And 347 00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: I think in the next two years there were a 348 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: couple more people, and they were historians largely believed that 349 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 1: these three guys, mega Cles, Callius, and Hipparcus, we're all 350 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: found guilty or thought to be guilty of supporting Persia. 351 00:22:56,840 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: And so they're like, all right, well, you know what, 352 00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:01,360 Speaker 1: come back in ten years, tell us what you think 353 00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: about it then. But nol, I have a question. If 354 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: you're exiling people for the same perceived you know, violation 355 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 1: of norms or the same danger, what's to stop them 356 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: from getting together outside of town and like staging some 357 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: sort of revolt right right? You see where I'm going 358 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:21,760 Speaker 1: with us. I don't see where you're going with us. 359 00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:24,280 Speaker 1: It's a good question, ben like some sort of like 360 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: reverse lynch mob. I don't know. I think the numbers 361 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't be on their side. I don't feel like there 362 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,959 Speaker 1: was any there's any number. I mean, like the highest 363 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: number too, to your point earlier, would probably be in 364 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,639 Speaker 1: the twenties, you know, I highly doubt they were like 365 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:40,679 Speaker 1: exiling enough, uh that they could come back on mass 366 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: I see what you're saying. Yeah, and then a public 367 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: opinion is already against them so much they would have 368 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: to get help from a foreign power. So if you 369 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,160 Speaker 1: if you look at this and you just think about 370 00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:59,399 Speaker 1: the relatively snarky nature of people, you might feel a 371 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: ridiculous historians assume that all of the prominent power players 372 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: and politicians in Athens or at some point targets for 373 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:15,240 Speaker 1: ostracization or ostracism, you would be correct, ding ding first 374 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 1: prize to you. Even the legendary Pericles was a candidate 375 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:24,359 Speaker 1: for this treatment. We know that when they held these votes, 376 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: they often concentrated on just like two or three people 377 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 1: who might get kicked out. But some, according to these 378 00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:37,520 Speaker 1: shards of pottery, these ostraka, some people that scholars never 379 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,600 Speaker 1: even learned about anywhere else, also got really big votes 380 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,880 Speaker 1: for ostracism. So again back to Sickener, He says that 381 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,199 Speaker 1: writers from this time tend to focus on just the 382 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 1: big names, the few big names. But if you look 383 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: at these shards of pottery, you'll see there were a 384 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 1: lot of people that didn't make it into the historical 385 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,399 Speaker 1: record otherwise is that we're a big enough deal for 386 00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 1: Athenes to be concerned. Yeah, that's right, and um we 387 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 1: you know again, we learn all of this from archaeological digs, 388 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: and our historian Seeking gerb had this to say about 389 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 1: exactly what you're talking about that writers from antiquity quote, 390 00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: writers from antiquity focus on just a few big men. 391 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: History was the history of leading figures, powerful individuals, generals 392 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,440 Speaker 1: and politicians, but others or maybe not quite as prominent, 393 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 1: but clearly prominent enough that dozens or hundreds of individuals 394 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: thought them worthy of being ostracized. That's very interesting because 395 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: it sort of speaks to what you're talking about, Ben. 396 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 1: I think what the biggest concern would be is if 397 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: someone with a lot of sway, Because we know that 398 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 1: even though it only took six thousand votes to ostracize someone, 399 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about a population the dwarfs that number. So 400 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 1: the issue would be if enough people were not on 401 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: board with the ostracization of their guy, then maybe they 402 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: follow him, and then that would be a coup that 403 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: could be staged. Right. Yeah, that's a good point. There 404 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 1: are serious political concerns here. But also because this show 405 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: is about ridiculous history. Folks. We would be remiss if 406 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: we didn't share some of the funny roast and disses 407 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: and things that were written about people when they were 408 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:34,640 Speaker 1: up for an ostracism vote. You can see a lot 409 00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: of what Athenians thought about other citizens. Some have these 410 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: like they didn't just write the name, they added some 411 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:49,160 Speaker 1: extra here's why to it. There's like lie gross Glacon 412 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: nos Slanderer, Yeah, collected us the trader ex Antipus Eraphon 413 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 1: Sun is declared by this ostracon to be the out 414 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: and out winner amongst a cursed sinners. And we have 415 00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: another historian to thank for the record of all of 416 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,000 Speaker 1: this and how it really informs what was going on 417 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 1: with the politics of ancient Greece, Stephen Brenn of the 418 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,080 Speaker 1: University of Geeseon in Germany. He actually cataloged all nine 419 00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: thousand pieces of this Ostraka pottery that were um dug 420 00:27:26,880 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: up in uh Kara Micos between nineteen ten and just 421 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 1: as recently as two thousand five, and bren says that 422 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 1: some of these comments, those uh comments that we mentioned 423 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: earlier were these kind of personal political grievances against candidates 424 00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: um that were perhaps used in almost like yeah, like 425 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: what you would think of as as a campaign right 426 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 1: leading up to one of these votes, so you know, 427 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: you would almost in the same way you lead up 428 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 1: to like say, voting for the Oscars for your consideration 429 00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: or the Emmys or whatever. They would have had these 430 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: like slogans or you know, the stay with any political 431 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,280 Speaker 1: process leading out to us. So a lot of these 432 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: things that were written would have reflected those types of campaigns. 433 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: For sure. There were things like accusations of incest. Uh. 434 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 1: There were also there's one really interesting thing where some 435 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: folks found examples of Athenians casting their votes not for 436 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: a specific human citizen, but uh casting to ostracized famine. 437 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 1: And according to signature. It's kind of tough to tell 438 00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: whether this was sincere or whether this was sarcastic, because 439 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: some Greek cities did have rituals where they would pick 440 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: typically an enslaved person, make them a scapegoat representing hunger, 441 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 1: and then drive them out of the city. So it's 442 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: a little bit faster and looser than a lot of 443 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: voting today. But we do know that the end of 444 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 1: ostracism occurred around four seventeen b c e. There was 445 00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 1: a guy named Hyperbolos who wanted to exile one of 446 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: his two great rivals. He had two people that would 447 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: rather not be in town, and he thought things would 448 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 1: go better for me if I get one of them 449 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: out of the game. These were Alcabiades and Nicias. But 450 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 1: instead his rivals teamed up and got him voted out 451 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: of the city. And this political maneuvering apparently made enough 452 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: people disgusted that they decided collectively to end ostracism, and 453 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 1: after that point, even though it was still legally possible 454 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: to do this, nobody was ostracized, and there was still 455 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: on the books until the fourth century b c. Instead, 456 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: if he didn't like someone, if you had a political rival, 457 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,240 Speaker 1: you would int age in a process called graph a paranomon, 458 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 1: where anybody could make a formal accusation against anyone else 459 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 1: and say, hey, their ideas, their policies, their proposals, those 460 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 1: are unconstitutional. And if the person you accused was found 461 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: guilty of the charge, you would get fined. You have 462 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: to pay a lot of money. And then there was 463 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 1: a three strikes law. Can you believe it? If you 464 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: lost three cases of graph a paranoman, then you could 465 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: no longer be in politics, which is funny because you know, 466 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: it's so tempting Noll to have to think that maybe 467 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: modern democracies would be better with this kind of three 468 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: strikes law for politicians A million percents. I mean, we 469 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: should have some sort of mechanism like this. I wouldn't say, 470 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: you know, leave the city for ten years, but there 471 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 1: should be some popular way to recall people that doesn't 472 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: involve like all of this crazy pedantic um, you know, 473 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: kind of bureaucracy that we have to deal with. Because again, 474 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: like we've seen with uh, you know, we're not a 475 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: political show. We're not. We don't we don't put our 476 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,160 Speaker 1: we don't wear our political views on our sleeves. But 477 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that there have been 478 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 1: situations throughout history where perhaps we would have benefited if 479 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 1: there was some accepted way of ousting someone at their 480 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: very least kind of knocking them a couple of runs 481 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:29,520 Speaker 1: off of their pedestal, you know, for stuff that we 482 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:35,680 Speaker 1: would just consider absolutely unacceptable. Yeah. Yeah, and and uh, 483 00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: to have consequences for some actions of corruption or so on, 484 00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 1: like those consequences can frankly be hard to uh, hard 485 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: to follow through with in many cases, and this this 486 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 1: is something that led our pal Gave to ask whether 487 00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: ostracism is worth a second look today. He was citing 488 00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: that New York Daily News op ed we mentioned at 489 00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: the very very top of the show, and this was 490 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: an op ed by Stephen Ruddy, and in this op ed, 491 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: Ruddy says the process of ostracism holds advantages over the 492 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: American system of impeachment because he notes that the Athenian 493 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 1: process of ostracizing someone was based on policy often right, 494 00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: And people would like your point earlier about how six 495 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: thousand people might not agree on everything, but they kind 496 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:41,280 Speaker 1: of went across whatever their faction lines were. One would hope, yeah, 497 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: one one would. And that doesn't happen with the US 498 00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: system of impeachment. Yeah, it tends to go around partisan lines. 499 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: But with this, I think we can see the very 500 00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 1: serious and progressive roots of a phrase that that a 501 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: lot of us you're kind of misusing in the modern day. 502 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: I felt I told somebody that I felt ostracized for 503 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: some of my Okay, I'll admit stridently militant opinions about 504 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: certain foods, you know, but that wasn't ostracization. That was 505 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: my friends saying Hey, man, you're getting real weird about 506 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: case that he is I was still allowed to sit 507 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 1: at the table. Well, that's called intervention. That's not that's 508 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: the people that that's people that care about you and 509 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: want to make sure you're okay. They want you around. 510 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: They just thought you maybe went a little too far 511 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: down that case of the a rabbit hole band. And 512 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: we just want to help you. Man. We love you, 513 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,360 Speaker 1: We love you, and we love you. I I think 514 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:42,440 Speaker 1: I know, Matt, I think we could have so much 515 00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: fun if well, how do we define so much fun 516 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: for us? If we're hanging out with some of our 517 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: coworkers or something, and it's someone like we'll just pick 518 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: a point they they have an opinion about something. It 519 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: could be Alex Williams, who could post our track. Alex 520 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:01,800 Speaker 1: says something that the three of us could exchange significant glances, 521 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 1: and I'll bring the pottery sharks and we can put 522 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: on pottery sharts. Yeah, well we'll hit up pottery barn. 523 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 1: I think all you would need would be one of 524 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,800 Speaker 1: those big planters, you know, and that's that will be 525 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: enough for for our vote. We don't need six thousand though, 526 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: I think that seems a bit much within our little 527 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: podcast sphere. Maybe twenty money is ambitious on it zone. Yeah, 528 00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: I think that's great. But U but let us let 529 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,919 Speaker 1: us know what you think, folks. We'd love to hear 530 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: from you. We'd love to hear what you think about 531 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:39,400 Speaker 1: the process of ostracization or ostracism, whether it should return 532 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: in the modern day. You could tell us all about 533 00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: it on our Facebook page, Ridiculous Historians to meet the 534 00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 1: best part of the show your fellow listeners. Also, uh, 535 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:54,280 Speaker 1: we have an email address, right, absolutely do It's real. 536 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 1: You can write to us at Ridiculous at I heart 537 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: media dot com. I don't think people are we need 538 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:02,399 Speaker 1: to start maybe saying this at the top of the show. 539 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 1: Ben still get the emails set up. I don't get 540 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: the email. This is crazy. Then you're once again being 541 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,120 Speaker 1: punished for being an honor student. I vote to ostracized. 542 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: I t ostracized. I T I love that. That's a 543 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: good slope, good chance. Um, yeah, thirded, thirded. We should 544 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: thank some people. Doesn't that mean we have a quorum. 545 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: Isn't that a quorum what we have here? I forget 546 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,880 Speaker 1: parliamentary procedure, but we will thank some people who definitely 547 00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: do not want to ostracize. That's, of course you already 548 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,759 Speaker 1: mentioned Alex Williams, who composed our theme. Max Williams, superproducer 549 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: of the year, of the century, of the millennium. Um, 550 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: you would have been a really great Greek pray tour 551 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:43,880 Speaker 1: or something, you know, one of those like dudes that 552 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 1: wears the robe and just holds up two fingers and 553 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:50,040 Speaker 1: looks very like a mystic. Yeah. I think it would 554 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: also have been a great orator, Max. Uh, you've got 555 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: some gravatoas about you. Uh, speaking with gravatoas of course, 556 00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: big big thanks to Casey Pegram, Christopher Hasiotis, Eve's Jeff Cote, 557 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: our Shining Star Research gave Louisier and uh, Noel, I 558 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: have to ask you, Max, I have to ask you 559 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,319 Speaker 1: my last question for the day, real talk. Would you 560 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: vote to ostracize the quister? I don't know, Man, I 561 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 1: kind of missed the guy. Yeah, yeah, we should just 562 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: let him stay. Let's let him stay, all right. Nobody 563 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:28,359 Speaker 1: telling me said that, but yeah, I agreed. We'll see 564 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: you next time. Folks. For more podcasts for my Heart Radio, 565 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever 566 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:42,080 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows,