WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 19 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.720 The Black Effect Presents features honest conversations and exclusive interviews, 0:00:05.120 --> 0:00:09.559 a space for artists, everyday people, and listeners to amplify, elevate, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:13.840 and empower black voices with great conversations. Make sure to 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.080 listen to The Black Effect Presents podcast on I Heart Radio, 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:23.560 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Get All 0:00:23.600 --> 0:00:26.560 the Real Housewives to you need on the podcast. To 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:30.000 Teas in a pod join ex Housewives Teddy Mellencamp and 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.400 Tam or Judge as they watch recap Armchair Quarterback and 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:37.120 breakdown all things from the hit reality TV franchise. This 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:39.760 team tells it like it is. Each week, we're gonna 0:00:39.800 --> 0:00:44.120 be recapping whatever housewife is currently airing. Lucky for Tamera, 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:47.360 we're gonna start Oh My Gosh with Orange County. Listen 0:00:47.400 --> 0:00:49.040 to two Teas in a Pod on the I Heart 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:56.440 Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:01:06.480 what does the chicken say? Uh? Draft? Draft? Really? Giraffe draw? 0:01:07.040 --> 0:01:09.000 You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:11.000 you know the big stuff, like making sure your kids 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.440 are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes. 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.559 Get it right. Visits n h S a dot gov 0:01:17.959 --> 0:01:20.520 slash the right seat brought to you by the National 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.959 Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. Hey, everybody, 0:01:24.120 --> 0:01:26.000 Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:29.720 this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.520 week that just happened is here in one convenient and 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:36.840 with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.200 in a long stretch if you want. If you've been 0:01:39.240 --> 0:01:41.399 listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:43.479 be nothing new here for you, but you can make 0:01:43.520 --> 0:01:54.880 your own decisions. What's meta my verse? This is it 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:59.640 could happen here, a podcast entirely dedicated to the metaverse um, 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.080 which is the promise of the human future. Um On 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:07.000 with me as always is my co host Mark Zuckerberg. 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.720 I don't I don't know how talks. I'm not sure how. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:17.040 I don't know who the voice you were doing? I 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:22.080 guess he sounds like nothing like no one but the 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:28.960 absence of a soul when it's dial up. Yeah, that's 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:33.760 what's going on inside his head in any moment when 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.520 he's not actively making the Internet worse. It's just a 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:42.799 dial tone in there. Awesome. Garrison what are we talking 0:02:42.840 --> 0:02:46.640 about today? Well, yeah, we're gonna be talking about the 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:51.120 metaverse and how how it's different from what people talk 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:54.200 about it as. And yeah, it's it's gonna be, it's, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:56.160 it's gonna it's gonna touch on a variety of things, 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:00.519 split up into two parts. Um. But first I would 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:04.120 like to paint you a picture with words, A word picture. 0:03:04.600 --> 0:03:09.400 So you're a wickture. Yeah, you're walking walking through your 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:13.920 favorite grocery store. There's you know, cards passing by, horrible, 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:18.760 horrible music playing. It's the lighting is white and and 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.720 like overexposed and under exposed at the same time. It's 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.480 it's it's hard, it's hard to see. And this, uh, 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:26.960 this like a person who looks like an employee keeps 0:03:27.040 --> 0:03:29.200 keeps popping up and trying to take you to different 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:31.240 sections of the store. You're trying to just ignore her. 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:33.640 It's a very annoying. All you need to get is 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.400 the stuff you have on a little list, and it's 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:41.000 it's awful. Um. Eventually you get so fed up with 0:03:41.040 --> 0:03:45.120 this whole experience that you take out, You go to 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:46.800 where the wine bottles are, You take them out, and 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:48.920 you arrange them into a giant penis on the floor 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.000 because that's the only thing you can do because you're 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.160 not actually in a store. You're in your living room 0:03:53.240 --> 0:03:55.040 and you have a horrible headset on, and you're trying 0:03:55.080 --> 0:04:00.400 to do shopping in a virtual in a virtual grocery store. Um. 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:02.960 And that's that's the actual kind of scope of what 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.400 we're gonna be talking about today is virtual marketplaces and 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:11.040 how they interact with seemingly real marketplaces. Yeah, I'm sure 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:13.160 this is inspired by There were a couple of videos 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:15.440 that dropped recently, one of them from I Think Walmart. 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:18.320 We're gonna be talk We're gonna be We're gonna be 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:21.000 talking about it. So yeah, So a couple a couple 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:24.200 of days after New Year, a video went viral across 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:26.799 the social media's ranking up over like eleven million views 0:04:26.839 --> 0:04:30.720 on Twitter um and it was titled how Walmart envisions 0:04:30.760 --> 0:04:35.360 shopping in the mold in the metaverse. Now, So what 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.080 followed was like two minutes of an embarrassing like VR jank, 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:42.320 including like throwing around virtual gallons of milk from your 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:46.040 cart into a virtual fridge. Many many dunks were made, 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:48.840 fun was had, but what a few people probably realized 0:04:48.880 --> 0:04:51.000 is that like this actually this This wasn't a Walmart 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.080 metaverse test store. This was actually a five year old 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:58.039 tech demo from before non Neil Stevenson fans even knew 0:04:58.080 --> 0:05:01.440 what the term metaverse meant. So a few years back, 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:05.000 a tech company called a Mutual Mobile partnered with Walmart 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:10.039 for a project set to quote reimagine retails virtual reality. Now, 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:12.440 that sounds very fancy and important, but considering this was 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.960 five years ago and you're not hearing about it until now, 0:05:15.080 --> 0:05:19.320 shows how impactful this thing actually was. The first stated 0:05:19.400 --> 0:05:22.480 goal of the tech demo, according to the Mutual Mobile website, 0:05:22.839 --> 0:05:27.960 was to impress influencers at south By Southwest. So you know, 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:31.200 just like the so called metaverse is now, this is 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.800 largely a promotional project, um and a way to attract investors. 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.680 This was this was never actually a serious thing. It's 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.880 I'm gonna say it right now. South By Southwest was 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:43.520 always one of the stupidest things in the world. Um, 0:05:43.560 --> 0:05:45.960 and when it comes back it will be still because 0:05:46.000 --> 0:05:50.600 it's stupid. It's a stupid place for the most insufferable 0:05:50.640 --> 0:05:52.880 people in the world to come and talk about technology. 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:56.800 Some people also listen to music. That's fine, so yeah, 0:05:56.960 --> 0:06:00.360 for for the for the experience itself that you an 0:06:00.360 --> 0:06:04.560 original Oculus rift and programmed roughly like four minute linear 0:06:04.880 --> 0:06:09.400 um expedition into a barren, hellish digital Walmart where you 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.760 pick up and throw it did it did sound exactly. 0:06:13.000 --> 0:06:15.240 My favorite thing about this video is they were clearly 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.440 using the audio of some sort of like shooter game, 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:20.440 because it was often like things would it would sound 0:06:20.480 --> 0:06:22.880 like you were in like fucking doom going through a portal, 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:26.560 and it was extremely funny. It was bad, sound like 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:30.000 hell you'll you'll pick up and throw fake wine bottles 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:32.960 into your blue digital cart, and the whole thing ends 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:35.960 with a fake drone delivering an eight hundred dollar TV 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.719 that you fake purchased. It's it's not great. What Mutual 0:06:39.720 --> 0:06:42.039 Mobile and Walmart were trying to do. They have a 0:06:42.040 --> 0:06:46.000 constatement on their website back from it was they said 0:06:46.000 --> 0:06:49.479 that Walmart envisioned unvailing a fully virtual shopping experience that 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.720 puts shoppers inside the store without ever leaving their homes. 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.600 To attract customers and to spell the misconception that they're 0:06:55.600 --> 0:06:58.520 not as advanced as their more digital counterparts. Brick and 0:06:58.520 --> 0:07:01.640 mortar establishments are not the accelerating investments in areas like 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.320 web and mobile, they're also exploring the very edge of 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.640 emerging technology. Walmart of virtual reality is a case some 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.920 point potential shoppers can virtually pick up products, read labels, 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.240 talk to virtual associates, and fill their shopping carts. But 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:17.560 the goal wasn't just to create something interactive. Walmart needed 0:07:17.600 --> 0:07:20.640 something that showed the potential of VR in retail while 0:07:20.640 --> 0:07:24.160 putting them ahead of the competition. So I mean this 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.520 was like this was this was kind of ahead in 0:07:27.640 --> 0:07:30.440 some ways, but also ahead in the ways that it's 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.320 kind of showing how not useful. This example is so 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:37.560 obviously like this five year old video resurface now due 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:41.400 to Zuckerberg and Epic Games, you know, forcing an astroturfed 0:07:41.680 --> 0:07:44.800 metaverse into the cultural zeitgeist, coupled with their you know, 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.760 conflation of anything VR to the legendary metaverse, right, because 0:07:48.800 --> 0:07:51.680 VR does not equal metaverse, nor is it nor is 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.680 it necessarily vice versa. But now these terms are getting 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:57.320 used so interchangeably that someone can stumble across this video 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.600 and be like, oh, look at this metaverse store, when 0:07:59.600 --> 0:08:01.680 like it's it's not it's just a it's just a 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:04.200 VR tech type of the metaverse in order to be 0:08:04.240 --> 0:08:08.160 like the thing that people have been imagining through cyberpunk 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.800 since like the nineties, it needs to be persistent and 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:13.760 interact directly with the real world in a number of ways, 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.680 like it It's It's it's well, we'll get into we'll 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.400 get into kind of what metaverse could be in the 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:23.320 future in terms of like the it could happen here idea, 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:26.040 and then not just a metaverse but a series of 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:28.240 metaverse is what they could be, and how that kind 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:30.440 of can negates the original idea of it in the 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.600 first place. But um, when asked by Vice News about 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:38.040 the resurgence of their Walmart project, Mutual Mobile replied, the 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.240 vision of a virtual shopping experience we helped Walmart realize 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:45.400 back in seventeen stands validated in the metaverse era of today. 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:49.280 This whole experience has only encouraged us to keep experimenting, innovating, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:53.640 and leading the charge with cutting edge tech. So, I mean, 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:58.200 considering most of the virality of this was people joking 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:03.640 about it, I yeah, sure, okay, okay, Mutual good good 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.440 luck with that. So a few days after the Walmart 0:09:07.559 --> 0:09:11.840 video went viral, rumors of another big box store going 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.920 Metaverse started to circulate again, accompanied by a video of 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.400 a possible like three D metaverse storefront. Reports emerged, starting 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.160 in India, claiming that H and M had announced that 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.120 it would offer its customers a three dimensional shopping experience 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.760 in its a virtual store inside the metaverse via something 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:32.840 called Now. I don't know if it's Keik City or 0:09:32.960 --> 0:09:36.640 seek City. Um, I'm not really comfortable saying either of 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:38.960 those things because they sound weird, but I'm gonna go. 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:41.520 I'm gonna go with Seek City. That's it's a little 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:47.640 bit better. I know, I know it sound, but it 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.040 sounds like it's a slur. So I'm gonna say Seek 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:54.480 but it's it's s e e k um. So this 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:58.920 This account on on Twitter called us seek vr shared 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.520 the following from it's a show Twitter account shopping in 0:10:01.520 --> 0:10:05.400 the Metaverse with seek coin concept VR store presented to 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:08.520 H and M by Seek creates mainstream use cases for 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:13.480 seek coin and scaling virtual reality beyond games. So I'll 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:15.600 get into what seek is in a bit. But the 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:17.600 report said that customers will be able to walk through 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:20.440 the store choose the apparel they wanted to purchase in 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:24.480 the Sikh City universe. Um. Although the clothes could only 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:27.520 be worn in the digital environment, payment would be made 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.800 with seek coin and customers could have the opportunity to 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.640 order the same apparel from H and m's physical stores later. 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:35.960 But that you're buying two separate things. One of us 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.840 the digital skin, one of it's an actual, you know, 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:43.319 real thing. Um so what a seek? Seek was launched 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:47.040 in It's a metaverse coin pop project built on the 0:10:47.080 --> 0:10:52.320 Ethereum blockchain and their their Their goal is to connect artists, athletes, 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.120 and other digital content creators directly with their fans and 0:10:55.280 --> 0:11:00.080 virtual worlds. Seeks n f T marketplaces is designed to 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:04.120 enable real ownership in which I would actually want. That is, 0:11:04.160 --> 0:11:08.080 if it's me having a very sexual zoom chat with 0:11:08.440 --> 0:11:11.480 you know what, we don't need to Garrison, please continue, okay, 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.160 quoting from subside. Seek currently offers a range of immersive 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:23.360 VR experiences within Seek City, including theater, concert arenas, sports complex, 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.360 hang out lounge, and more. There's all the things you 0:11:26.400 --> 0:11:29.520 can do in your real home, but weird and on 0:11:29.559 --> 0:11:35.280 the internet. This is horrible, and I see a potential 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.520 appeal for people who are like out in the sticks 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:40.120 or in parts of the world where they're not they 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:43.440 feel not like they're very politically or whatever disconnected, which 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:45.800 is the same thing the Internet already does. I'll talk 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:49.120 about it being in VR will make it better. I 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.520 don't know. I've lived in the middle of nowhere and 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.040 relied on the Internet to be social, and I don't 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.800 think I would have wanted to change the Internet in 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:01.040 for this because it sounds yeah, anyway, it's I'll talk. 0:12:01.080 --> 0:12:03.600 I'll talk about use cases in a sec. But yeah, 0:12:03.720 --> 0:12:07.160 so end users will be able to use seek token 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.520 to make purchases, vote for content control programming a much 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.800 more after token launch, seek VR, in partnership with Universal Music, 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:18.800 can realize live performances of world famous artists such as 0:12:18.960 --> 0:12:22.440 bon Jovi, Lady Gaga, you Tube, Sting, and many more 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.280 can take place on this platform. So seek is like 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:28.559 it's it's kind of the startup, but it's been around 0:12:28.559 --> 0:12:31.640 for a while. It's trying to do like you know, 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:35.680 virtual venues inside the metaverse. They they do have contracts 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:39.679 with Universal, so it's it's it's a mix of trying 0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.960 it's it's a mix of this coin, so it's a 0:12:42.000 --> 0:12:45.719 mix of this like cryptocurrency, also trying to use this 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:49.960 cryptocurrency in this world they're trying to build up. Um. 0:12:50.080 --> 0:12:53.800 There their their their roadmap to metaverse right now. First 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.320 thing is like payment integration, so using seek coin. They 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.760 want seek coin to be the coin for everything in 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.200 the metaverse. They want all metaverse be based off this 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.319 thing that they invented called sea Coin because it will 0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.720 make them money. Um. Next thing they want to do 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:10.080 is create a creator enabled ecosystem, so kind of copy 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:13.960 the content creator thing we have right now, poured that 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:17.040 into the metaverse. But again have everything you know, you 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:20.280 can invest in your creators so you can vote on 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.960 what they do using sea coins and all of we 0:13:23.000 --> 0:13:25.800 talked about like the personal ownership in the previous episode. 0:13:26.200 --> 0:13:27.880 But then a lot of it, you know, they have 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.640 like an n FT marketplace, Avatar marketplaces, etcetera, etcetera. But 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.319 a lot of this stuff is built around like concerts, 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:39.360 you know, venues, you know, a lounge, movie theaters where 0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:43.320 you can do stuff in VR. That is like that 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.240 is the main the main thing that Seek is trying 0:13:47.280 --> 0:13:50.680 to do. They do have this one one quote somewhere, 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:54.760 oh yeah, the future milestone. So after they achieve this 0:13:54.960 --> 0:13:58.840 Seek metaverse where everything is ran through Seek, all of 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:00.920 like you know what, whether you're on Oculus, whether you're 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.360 on Vibe, all of it gets run through seeks. It's 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.600 one one multiverse, sorry, one metaverse. Their their future milestones 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.920 are quote a VR Space Academy. They do not do 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:17.560 not say what that means, Keek Studios again kind of unclear. 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.200 I'm guessing like original content. And then the last one 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.440 is a blockchain metaverse alliance. Those are their those are 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.280 their three big future milestones after they get there there. 0:14:27.480 --> 0:14:32.880 What was that last one? Blockchain metaverse Alliance? I mean, 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.280 this was like in the Facebook thing to write the 0:14:35.280 --> 0:14:36.960 idea that we're going to integrate in f t S. 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:39.440 But it was also clearly just like they tossed that 0:14:39.520 --> 0:14:41.440 in there on the Facebook one, there was no evidence 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.600 they thought seriously about n f t S or blockchain. 0:14:44.720 --> 0:14:47.720 It was just had gotten big while they were preparing 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:51.160 the things, so they tossed them in there. Um, I 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:53.200 I get the idea, right, Like the thing that they 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.640 keep pitching with this is that you'll be able to 0:14:56.240 --> 0:14:58.600 have an item in one game that is yours. The 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:00.800 company doesn't own it, you can take it to other games, 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:03.440 which anyone who makes games will tell you was fucking nonsense, 0:15:03.840 --> 0:15:07.040 it's something like that might be vaguely possible in a 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:10.160 metaverse where everything was forced to use the same engine, 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:14.280 um and all. Everyone was also forced to abide by 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.600 a bunch of strict rules by Facebook. Um that Also, 0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:22.520 that's probably violating antitrust laws. Um and also it seems 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.000 like a ridiculously Sisiphisian task with no real benefit. I 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.280 don't think anyone's going to do it, but I'm guessing 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:30.440 that's what they're referring to when they want to jam 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:33.200 the blockchain up in the fucking metaverse. Like what else 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.320 could it be? The blockchain Metaverse Alliance, all of the 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.040 blockchains the metaverse is gonna aligned into. Yeah, like they 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:41.000 don't want to put all of the metaverse stuff. You 0:15:41.120 --> 0:15:44.920 want to wear this shirt in the metaverse. So, just 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:50.080 like the real world, the freedom, the freedom of the 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.360 internet catch you feel. It's the ever expecting possibilities. I 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.600 do love because they keep talking about within the context 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.120 of metaverse games like you'll get to unlock a character 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:00.400 that's just yours and nobody else can play it, and 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:02.800 they'll have special abilities that means he wins all the time. 0:16:02.840 --> 0:16:06.520 It's like, why would people play that game? I think 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.640 it was Business Insiders, someone's article talking about how need 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:11.680 it would be for games to work this way, and like, 0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:13.760 think of all the money you'd make people wanting to 0:16:13.760 --> 0:16:16.640 watch your character wins. People don't want to just like 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.680 watch a guy who's structurally unable to lose because he 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.840 he bought the right character in a racing game win 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.200 every race. That's not no one's going to pay to 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.960 watch that. Do you understand what people watch races for? 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:36.560 Like now, anyway, let's hear from our good friends at 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:39.680 our products and services before we come back and talk 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:45.760 more about seek coins. I guess I don't know. All right, 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:50.440 we are back, So yeah, zee coins virtual reality spaces 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:55.360 run on smart contracts through the through the Bayan's smart 0:16:55.520 --> 0:16:58.160 chain and there there there run the run through the 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:05.719 Ethereum blockchain. UM. So the the there's about seven and 0:17:06.119 --> 0:17:10.359 seven forty four millions seek coins and supply. The maximum 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.720 supply capacity is capped at one billion coins. Uh. Sea 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:18.080 coins peaked at one one dollar and sixteen cents a 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.800 year ago after launching, and around four cents um. They're 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:25.320 currently being traded for around sixty cents. So that's that's 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:27.520 what actual sea coins doing. Like like like people do 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:31.040 use this, there's not many people like they. They do 0:17:31.080 --> 0:17:35.200 have these contracts with with with Universal Music. Um but 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:37.280 before this H and M thing, I I never heard 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:41.400 of Seek coins. Um. So, two days after the rumors 0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.119 began circulating that H and M was, you know, partnering 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.679 with Seek, H and M said, Nope, we did not, 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.120 We are we are not doing this, but they did 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:52.880 not close the door in future possibilities. They said, uh, 0:17:52.960 --> 0:17:54.639 we we we like to we'd like to confirm that 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:56.680 H and M is not is not opening a store 0:17:56.720 --> 0:17:59.760 in the metaverse at this time. We're also not collaborating 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:03.520 with Seek. So the official Twitter account for Seek subsequently 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.440 clarified later on that the store that they were doing 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:08.480 was just a concept that was presented to H and 0:18:08.640 --> 0:18:12.160 M and not a not a launching virtual store yet. 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:15.000 Um but they do. They do say that they're in 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.240 discussions with H and M to make this a reality, 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.080 but it's not a reality as of now. So this 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:23.760 this kind of begs the question, like, what about a 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:27.520 three D digital space is superior to a two D 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:31.800 digital space for simple tasks like shopping online. So once 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.199 you start, you know, unfolding questions like this about the 0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:38.080 Internet metaverse a r VR, you there are more the 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:40.800 conternal sides to this than you would have initially estimated. 0:18:41.359 --> 0:18:44.280 Um But, first off, before we kind of have this discussion, 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:47.000 we should split this into two categories. One for shopping 0:18:47.040 --> 0:18:49.159 for like real physical items that you plan on like 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:52.639 receiving in person, and then digital items that don't physically 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.439 exist and are just just on your computer and monitor. 0:18:55.880 --> 0:18:59.960 So obviously, like there's no clear advantage in most cases 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:04.160 to traversing an isolated virtual environment in order to order 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.080 food as opposed to just scrolling through a web page. 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:11.439 Um But once you expand out of the confines of 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:16.239 VRS sensory deprivation three three D technology in a r SO, 0:19:16.359 --> 0:19:19.760 augmented reality does actually have some useful prospects, including some 0:19:19.840 --> 0:19:23.280 that are already in use. Amazon and Ikea, for example, 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.560 have options on their perspective websites and apps that can 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.840 like project furniture options into your living space. So you 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:32.000 can see that's the kind of thing that has some future. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:34.760 I think, yeah, yeah, so this is currently this is 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.159 being done on your phone screen, but in a r 0:19:37.200 --> 0:19:40.199 glasses application of this actually serve its purpose quite well 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:45.760 because something something that want yeah, pretty mediocre and these are. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.080 And that's kind of the thing the place where at 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:51.760 I we make fun of this stuff a lot because 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:54.440 most of its nonsense there are there are really there's 0:19:54.440 --> 0:19:56.399 a lot of potential in some of these ideas, but 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.359 there's their potential for like and the same level that 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:01.440 the air fryer has potential where it's like a thing 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.000 a bunch of people will buy, but it's not. None 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.840 of this yet is stuff that's going to completely change. Like, yeah, 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:08.880 you might get a few million people to to get 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.840 these glasses and or this app made this classes for 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:14.120 a couple of reasons, but who would use this this 0:20:14.200 --> 0:20:16.520 app to like help plan out how they're setting up 0:20:16.560 --> 0:20:18.240 their houses. You might get a few million people who 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:20.440 do that. It's not going to be like an iPod 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.359 or an iPhone or or like Facebook that no one's 0:20:24.359 --> 0:20:26.960 had figured that out yet. There's there's some neat products 0:20:26.960 --> 0:20:28.840 that are going to be valuable, but we're still on 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.800 the stage where nobody's under nobody's figured out fundamentally what 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:36.800 people want from this as opposed through like tiny specific needs. 0:20:36.800 --> 0:20:40.840 In the same way that like there was a number 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:44.760 of futurists who quite add accurately figured out with a smartphone, Like, Oh, 0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:47.000 people want a thing that will give them access to 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:50.000 all of the knowledge and ideas in the world and 0:20:50.040 --> 0:20:52.800 also let them yell at anybody anytime they want. Like, 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.560 that's something that is going to be incredibly successful, and 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:58.440 it has and it's changed the entire world. Zuckerberg was like, 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.720 people want to be able to be racist faster, and 0:21:01.840 --> 0:21:05.399 by god, we wanted it and and that was huge. Um, 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:08.280 I don't like these are It's a good idea, like, yeah, 0:21:08.400 --> 0:21:10.480 let people scope out how their room is going to 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:12.840 look when they're shopping or whatever through a r But 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:15.200 we haven't yet hit that this is going to change 0:21:15.240 --> 0:21:19.080 the world, because being slightly better at using Ikea will 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.360 not change the world. Yeah. I think as an avid 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:26.159 air fryer hater, I do think comparing metaverse to the 0:21:26.160 --> 0:21:31.760 air fryer is actually which I love to say to Garrison. 0:21:32.680 --> 0:21:35.359 I know Garrison hates it when I use the air fryer. 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:40.920 Fer mhm anti air frier action is my new tattoo. 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:44.560 They screech like the person at the end of Invasion 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:51.879 of the Body. But my goodness, do they cook my 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:59.160 food faster the fry it with the air Wow? Almost 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:06.280 like it's impossible anyway. UM. Mutual Mobiles digital marketing strategists 0:22:07.080 --> 0:22:10.679 talked with Vice after the Walrut video went viral, and 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:12.880 he explained that like, the demo was made to show 0:22:12.880 --> 0:22:15.919 the potential of virtual reality and shopping experiences that they 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.959 can have for you know, different people, UM, including its 0:22:18.960 --> 0:22:21.879 ability to connect like elderly people or people with disabilities 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.240 to a shopping experience from the comfort of their own home, 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.359 something that he thinks might even be you know, attractive 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.359 to people who have been through several rounds of COVID quarantine. 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:35.399 And I can kind of understand this last argument. You know, 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.439 during early quarantine, I definitely used my VR headset more 0:22:39.480 --> 0:22:42.920 often than I had before. UM, and with our alienated 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.440 capitalist world, I can see the use of walking around 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.119 a digital store if you're stuck at home, UM, due 0:22:48.160 --> 0:22:49.760 to something like a plague, or if you know, if 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:51.639 you have a physical or mental reason that makes you know, 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:55.440 going to a story difficult. Because but like it's yes, 0:22:55.520 --> 0:22:59.600 this this can help that. But also this is always 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:01.600 very engine how these types of stores are set up 0:23:01.600 --> 0:23:03.679 and how these stories like affect your brain. It's like 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:05.840 a big part of going to the grocery store. What 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:07.920 it's designed to do. Let's make it so that we're 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.760 not just following a shopping list. There's like a structured 0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:13.840 joy of discovery. Everything about the design to the store 0:23:13.880 --> 0:23:16.080 is to get you to buy things you didn't think 0:23:16.080 --> 0:23:18.840 you needed before you walked in, and we're trained from 0:23:18.920 --> 0:23:22.479 birth to like to find this process pleasurable. So in 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:25.080 that way, walking around a VR like wal Mart or 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:27.920 H and M might actually make some people happy despite 0:23:27.920 --> 0:23:30.280 that being sad and dystopian if you stop and think 0:23:30.320 --> 0:23:33.400 about it, right, like, because that's that's actually like it's 0:23:33.400 --> 0:23:35.840 a it's a very capitalist thing. But it does make 0:23:35.920 --> 0:23:37.760 us happy because that's that's what we've been trained to 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:41.760 do since we're babies. So that there's there is that 0:23:41.800 --> 0:23:43.320 side of it for in terms of like, yeah, I 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:45.480 can see if I really don't want to leave the house, 0:23:45.520 --> 0:23:47.240 but I want to get the experience of walking through 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.679 a place, maybe I will walk through a Target to 0:23:50.720 --> 0:23:53.440 get groceries. I don't know as some people maybe it 0:23:53.520 --> 0:23:56.840 might do that, but otherwise, you know, it's much It 0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.119 is much simpler and easier to just scroll through a 0:23:59.160 --> 0:24:01.520 two dy thing on a web page and and and 0:24:01.520 --> 0:24:03.439 and do the things you need. That's the thing. Like 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:06.440 it's like, yeah, I mean absolutely because I I when 0:24:06.440 --> 0:24:08.399 I was making fun of one of these videos, somebody 0:24:08.440 --> 0:24:10.119 like called it out as being able list and was 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:11.639 like thinking, all the use as this as for a 0:24:11.640 --> 0:24:15.080 disabled person, if they can use this, they can use Amazon, 0:24:15.240 --> 0:24:17.840 and like as a person who sometimes I don't shop 0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:20.720 for groceries at Amazon, but I've shop for groceries online. 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:25.240 It's fine. The it's it's it's everything it needs to be. 0:24:25.480 --> 0:24:28.240 You can get your groceries online, and the metaverse is 0:24:28.280 --> 0:24:30.359 just going to make it like weird and off putting 0:24:30.840 --> 0:24:34.400 and unnecessarily complicated because at the moment, I can get 0:24:34.400 --> 0:24:38.359 groceries with my phone while I'm like jogging um or 0:24:38.440 --> 0:24:41.120 as I'm like sitting in traffic, or like while I'm 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:43.399 on a zoom call listening to Garrison talk about the 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:46.280 metaverse as opposed to putting on a headset and like 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:50.800 doing the same thing basically as driving there, but more expensively. Anyway, 0:24:51.040 --> 0:24:54.560 are you grow for shopping? Right now? I am ordering 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.720 seventred cans of ZeVA and forty pounds of raw beef. 0:24:59.640 --> 0:25:01.560 I you're it's a normal week's worth of food for 0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:07.440 me and that's literally like two days for him. See 0:25:07.440 --> 0:25:10.080 but Robert, you could be doing this while wearing a 0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:12.760 bucket on your head and walking around a fake store. 0:25:13.119 --> 0:25:14.760 I could wear a bucket on my head to the 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:16.800 real store. They can't stop me. I usually wear a 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:22.879 bath rob This is the first half where it's like, 0:25:23.280 --> 0:25:25.840 you know, buying actual physical items you plan to receive 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:28.439 in stores, you know, furniture. It's actually kind of makes sense. 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:31.800 Uh food, It's a little bit iffy. The only kind 0:25:31.800 --> 0:25:34.800 of consideration there is if people want the mental effect 0:25:34.800 --> 0:25:37.520 of walking around a store, if they find that pleasurable, 0:25:37.600 --> 0:25:39.359 then it's a thing. But you know, it's way more 0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.760 efficient to just scroll through your phone. Um As for 0:25:42.800 --> 0:25:45.359 the other side, buying virtual items, whether they be you know, 0:25:45.520 --> 0:25:48.840 n f t S, video game skins or super special 0:25:48.880 --> 0:25:52.040 exclusive VR hangout rooms, I don't give a funk how 0:25:52.080 --> 0:25:54.360 this works. If you want to walk around a VR 0:25:54.440 --> 0:25:57.280 vault about your VR art and your VR clothes, knock 0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:00.640 yourself out. I buy Sonic the hedgehot games. We all 0:26:00.640 --> 0:26:02.960 have our weird things we do that don't make any sense. Yeah, 0:26:03.040 --> 0:26:07.840 if that's if you these parcery stores are just gonna 0:26:07.880 --> 0:26:12.119 be like the seven weirdest people in the country masturbanting 0:26:12.160 --> 0:26:15.520 as they buy wine and milk. That's the thing, Robert 0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:17.840 I was when I was when I was doing the 0:26:17.840 --> 0:26:20.760 digital picture. In the beginning, I had two scenarios, one 0:26:20.760 --> 0:26:22.720 where you align the bottles into a deck. The other 0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:24.600 one I was gonna say, you take off your pants 0:26:24.640 --> 0:26:27.520 and start masturbating, and I decided not to do that one. 0:26:27.600 --> 0:26:31.959 So I'm happy that because, Yeah, that is the actual 0:26:32.080 --> 0:26:34.400 use case for this, is that someone's people are gonna 0:26:34.400 --> 0:26:37.320 be walking around these fake walmarts just all cherking off. 0:26:37.520 --> 0:26:40.200 That's what's gonna happen there. They're gonna have this animation 0:26:40.280 --> 0:26:42.760 of a real, real female employee of theirs who like 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:45.040 pops up when you do something you're not supposed to 0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:46.800 do and explain something to you. And it's going to 0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:49.520 be impossible to remove initially, and people are going to 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:51.679 turn it into a whole weird, horny thing, and like 0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:54.359 they will appear in all these circumstances. It's gonna go 0:26:54.600 --> 0:26:56.480 it's going to be the only thing that goes viral, 0:26:56.640 --> 0:26:59.440 Like it's gonna be the only thing people remember five 0:26:59.520 --> 0:27:01.840 years later about the first of these This is I'm 0:27:01.960 --> 0:27:03.600 I'm gonna start. Go back to this towards the end 0:27:03.640 --> 0:27:05.680 of part two. But this is the actual way to 0:27:05.720 --> 0:27:08.680 handle the metaverse, because we're gonna this this thing is 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:11.080 going to be forced on us one way or another. 0:27:11.119 --> 0:27:13.679 We're gonna have a form of it, and honestly, the 0:27:13.680 --> 0:27:15.480 best thing we can do with it is either ignore it, 0:27:15.560 --> 0:27:19.439 ignore it, or maybe more attractively, is to funk with it. 0:27:19.480 --> 0:27:21.399 Like that's gonna be the thing, that's gonna be the 0:27:21.440 --> 0:27:24.280 thing to do. There was an article a few days 0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:28.640 ago that the headline is Final Fantasy porn interrupts Italian 0:27:28.760 --> 0:27:33.399 Senate zoom event someone someone joined in and started playing 0:27:33.920 --> 0:27:38.520 poured from Final Fantasy seven, Like this is this is 0:27:39.040 --> 0:27:41.639 to do. This is the way that we need to 0:27:41.680 --> 0:27:45.720 do it. If there's gonna be dumbass like meetings on 0:27:45.920 --> 0:27:49.800 the Zuckerberg metaverse, people need to go in and make 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:53.120 it weirdly horny. Yeah, Garrison, I could not agree more 0:27:53.480 --> 0:27:56.800 that that's the what you need to do, citizens of 0:27:56.840 --> 0:28:00.720 the Internet is look up something awful, have h A 0:28:00.840 --> 0:28:03.560 B B O hotel. That's the kind of ship that 0:28:03.600 --> 0:28:06.840 we need to be doing in fucking um In in 0:28:06.960 --> 0:28:10.080 the there was basically a children's video game was an 0:28:10.080 --> 0:28:12.399 early kids MMO and a bunch of weird adults and 0:28:12.480 --> 0:28:15.520 something awful decided to create an unsettling cult of people 0:28:15.560 --> 0:28:18.439 who all looked identical and marched around doing all of 0:28:18.440 --> 0:28:21.159 these weird, unsettling things in a children's game. It was 0:28:21.320 --> 0:28:25.439 very fun um like or or like in a in 0:28:25.560 --> 0:28:28.040 second life when it was the new big sexy thing 0:28:28.080 --> 0:28:32.320 there was. This was very self important tech writer, investor 0:28:32.400 --> 0:28:34.879 type person who was doing a Q and A and 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:38.480 people just like animated thousands of floating penises going around. 0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:41.160 This is this is gonna be the thing. This is 0:28:41.240 --> 0:28:44.120 what you're gonna have to do because in order because 0:28:44.320 --> 0:28:47.240 if it's gonna be this horrible corporate hell, the only 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:48.760 way to do it. The only way to deal with 0:28:48.760 --> 0:28:51.240 that is to make it unusable for everybody so that 0:28:51.840 --> 0:28:53.480 so that it doesn't get used. And the way to 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:57.320 do that is by putting dicks everywhere. Dicks andwhere ever 0:28:57.480 --> 0:29:01.240 decides to do a multiverse pre sentation or if one 0:29:01.280 --> 0:29:03.800 party or another has had decides to a multiverse debate, 0:29:03.960 --> 0:29:09.600 it is everyone's moral responsibility, civic duty. This goes beyond 0:29:09.600 --> 0:29:11.920 civic This is as a citizen of the human race, 0:29:12.160 --> 0:29:14.880 you know, as a member of this species. You have 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:16.479 to try to find a way to suck it up 0:29:16.520 --> 0:29:20.240 for them. Something could be more important. So yeah, So 0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:22.400 if if you're buying digital items, do you never plan 0:29:22.480 --> 0:29:24.480 everyth even person, I don't care how you do it. 0:29:24.600 --> 0:29:27.680 Knock yourself out. We all have our weird things. I 0:29:27.680 --> 0:29:30.920 I bsonic DLCs, people do World of Warcraft. If you 0:29:30.960 --> 0:29:33.720 want to get of art piece, you can only hang 0:29:33.760 --> 0:29:36.680 in your digital room. That sounds miserable, but have fun. 0:29:37.200 --> 0:29:40.040 I I used the internet to order very off putting 0:29:40.640 --> 0:29:44.320 Danish cheese product. Oh yeah, that did happen. That was 0:29:44.360 --> 0:29:47.360 off putting. It was weird. It was like you tried 0:29:47.400 --> 0:29:49.479 to trick yourself into liking it when you were eating it, 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:52.000 though I we I don't remember not liking it because 0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:53.680 I hate a good amount. But I've had the second 0:29:53.720 --> 0:29:57.160 Cube sitting around and I've had no desired to desired. Yeah, anyway, 0:29:57.600 --> 0:29:59.560 so I did not like it. I just I don't 0:29:59.560 --> 0:30:01.840 know that I ever want to eat it again. Quality 0:30:02.720 --> 0:30:05.920 quality audio content. So here's the thing. I have not 0:30:05.960 --> 0:30:08.880 actually been talking about the metaverse. Nothing I've mentioned thus 0:30:08.880 --> 0:30:11.600 far actually is the metaverse and doesn't have really anything 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:14.480 to do with the metaverse. Besides the technology of a 0:30:14.560 --> 0:30:17.680 VR and a R. You know, it turns out companies 0:30:17.720 --> 0:30:21.160 like Facebook, Epic, Microsoft involved, the way they talk about 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:22.880 the metaverse is kind of all a big lie. Like 0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:25.600 if it's not metaverse, it's a it's an astros turf 0:30:25.680 --> 0:30:28.200 to top down marketing scheme to turn more of you 0:30:28.320 --> 0:30:32.360 into data and to create and to create vinyl marketing, 0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:35.400 like that's instant instead of an interconnected solution to the 0:30:35.440 --> 0:30:38.400 alienedd bubbles of Web two, it's just a social media 0:30:38.400 --> 0:30:41.960 network that encompasses all of your vision and encourages even 0:30:42.000 --> 0:30:46.400 more digital alienation and less in person socialization. Kids, you 0:30:46.440 --> 0:30:48.520 know the worst stuff about the internet. What if it 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:51.200 was the only thing about the Internet. What if it 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:54.800 was encompanying everything you see instead of just a computer screen. 0:30:55.240 --> 0:30:58.240 So all of the gaming CEOs who are talking about 0:30:58.240 --> 0:31:01.040 the promise of n f T s and like, I 0:31:01.120 --> 0:31:03.400 think it was the one of the guys who runs 0:31:03.440 --> 0:31:04.880 red and I think it might have been Alexis so 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.480 haney In or whatever their name is who said that 0:31:07.520 --> 0:31:10.440 like in five years of games will be n f 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:12.640 T base because people don't like wasting their time and 0:31:12.680 --> 0:31:15.080 not getting compensated for it, Like, do you know what 0:31:15.160 --> 0:31:21.320 a game is. That's not what people. So I'm gonna 0:31:21.320 --> 0:31:24.479 I'm gonna talk more about metaverse as big tech or 0:31:24.480 --> 0:31:27.920 just bigger tech in part two. But this this, this, 0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:31.320 this will be wrapping up part one of the digital storefronts, 0:31:31.520 --> 0:31:33.880 and then we'll get into some more kind of applications 0:31:33.880 --> 0:31:36.360 of this and how we're actually seeing it in the 0:31:36.440 --> 0:31:39.040 second half. So, Robert, do you wanna Do you want 0:31:39.040 --> 0:31:43.920 to go buy a virtual uh block of Danish cheese? Um? No? 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:46.160 I did. When I was hanging out on top of 0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:47.560 the mountain the other day, I ran into a guy 0:31:47.600 --> 0:31:49.640 flying some drones, which I normally don't like. But this 0:31:49.680 --> 0:31:52.200 guy had a VR control rig for his very nice drones. 0:31:53.200 --> 0:31:56.880 That's those are dope. I might I might get into 0:31:56.920 --> 0:32:00.920 that yet, uh, But no, I have no desire to shop. 0:32:00.960 --> 0:32:04.560 I like going to the grocery store. Ums. I do 0:32:04.600 --> 0:32:06.600 as much of my shopping that way as possible because 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:11.320 it's soothing and uh nice and I think very human 0:32:11.440 --> 0:32:15.080 to go be around other people to get food. But yeah, 0:32:15.200 --> 0:32:16.680 that's the thing, you know, and things like the pandemic 0:32:16.680 --> 0:32:18.480 where that it comes harder. I think that is where 0:32:18.520 --> 0:32:21.120 the use cases for the digital stores actually come in 0:32:21.640 --> 0:32:24.800 like theoretically, but we've never you've never seen them that 0:32:25.040 --> 0:32:28.880 feeling that's soothing, which it all just looks deeply off putting. 0:32:29.520 --> 0:32:32.000 It all. It's the problem is that it's it's stuck. 0:32:32.040 --> 0:32:35.360 It's stuck in the uncanny valley. So it's not pleasurable 0:32:35.440 --> 0:32:39.840 to be in those digital spaces because you're even though 0:32:39.880 --> 0:32:43.280 it's being marketed as a solution to alienation, it's just 0:32:43.400 --> 0:32:47.440 more alienating because it's because it's it's like very clearly 0:32:47.480 --> 0:32:50.920 exposing the alienation that we try to avoid. Um. So 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:52.920 it falls right in the middle of the uncanny valley 0:32:52.960 --> 0:32:57.160 and it's not pleasant. But we we we we We We 0:32:57.200 --> 0:32:59.800 will talk more about that in part two. Um. If 0:32:59.800 --> 0:33:01.960 you want to follow the show on the social media's 0:33:02.520 --> 0:33:05.120 that is Cools on media and happen here pod. It 0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:08.120 can keep up with my tweets when I I don't know, 0:33:08.200 --> 0:33:09.760 I don't know what I do on Twitter anymore. But 0:33:10.000 --> 0:33:13.280 that's hungry about tie and you can harass Robert Evers 0:33:13.320 --> 0:33:18.680 at I read Okay, that's the show, do it? Do it? 0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:30.840 Are all kill? This episode is brought to you by Wicks. 0:33:31.360 --> 0:33:34.520 Are you ready to take your business online? You need Wicks. 0:33:34.760 --> 0:33:37.720 The leading website creation platform that's got all the tools 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:40.960 you need to create, manage, and grow your brand. Over 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:44.200 two hundred million people are already using Wicks is wide 0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:47.920 range of solutions to enhance their businesses, like ultrasmart s 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:50.400 e O tools designed to get you found on search engines, 0:33:50.680 --> 0:33:55.040 faster loading times to create outstanding user experiences, and payment 0:33:55.080 --> 0:33:58.520 solutions to help you boost your revenue. Plus, with enterprise 0:33:58.520 --> 0:34:02.320 grade security built into Recite, you know you're in safe hands. 0:34:02.360 --> 0:34:05.360 So whether you're starting your online business or you've got 0:34:05.360 --> 0:34:07.920 a side hustle, with Wicks, you can design a site 0:34:07.920 --> 0:34:10.640 to showcase your work that look great on any device. 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.800 You can also manage everything from one dashboard on desktop 0:34:13.840 --> 0:34:17.200 and mobile, so you can be available anywhere at any time, 0:34:17.640 --> 0:34:20.120 in the office, at home, or on the go. I 0:34:20.200 --> 0:34:22.279 want to get started, Head over to Wicks dot com 0:34:22.360 --> 0:34:26.799 and create your website today. That's w i X dot com. Hi. 0:34:26.880 --> 0:34:29.360 I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the 0:34:29.360 --> 0:34:32.120 hosts of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 0:34:32.360 --> 0:34:34.319 where every week we get to explore some of the 0:34:34.360 --> 0:34:38.239 weirdest questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation 0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:41.200 was possible. How would it square with the multitudes of 0:34:41.320 --> 0:34:44.560 organisms that inhabit our human bodies. Can we find evidence 0:34:44.600 --> 0:34:48.799 of emotions in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How 0:34:48.800 --> 0:34:53.640 would it interplanetary civilization function just free will exist. Stuff 0:34:53.719 --> 0:34:59.480 to Blow Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, 0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:02.520 and the unders of techno history. Basically, this show is 0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:05.920 the altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If 0:35:05.960 --> 0:35:09.480 anybody ever told you you asked the weirdest questions, it 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:11.560 is time to come join us in the place where 0:35:11.600 --> 0:35:15.000 you belong. The Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast new 0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:19.319 episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays. 0:35:19.480 --> 0:35:21.120 Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I 0:35:21.200 --> 0:35:24.960 Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 0:35:26.239 --> 0:35:28.160 Have you ever felt depressed about work only to have 0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:30.000 your dad be like, why you're so down? So you 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:31.680 told him you hate your job and he said, well, 0:35:31.680 --> 0:35:33.960 you better talk yourself out of it, and then you thought, hmm, 0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:36.279 I love to talk. I could host a podcast. And 0:35:36.280 --> 0:35:38.200 then you went to Speaker from my Heart and started 0:35:38.200 --> 0:35:40.400 a podcast and got good at it. Then monetized it, 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:42.520 then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks 0:35:42.520 --> 0:35:44.040 for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not 0:35:44.080 --> 0:35:46.360 what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is. 0:35:46.400 --> 0:35:49.040 But you seem happy. So that's great, kiddo. You ever 0:35:49.080 --> 0:35:52.719 do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's 0:35:52.880 --> 0:35:56.040 spr e A k E R ask your dad. You 0:35:56.080 --> 0:36:07.760 actually don't time. Mark Zuckerberg, Welcome to the podcast where 0:36:07.800 --> 0:36:12.080 we talk about the metaverse. I enjoy barbecue sauce And 0:36:13.120 --> 0:36:17.360 that was Mark Zuckerberg. That was pretty good. That that 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:20.680 is That is SNL worthy. Thank you, Garrison, because it's 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:26.640 because it's so bad. Alright, um now part that that 0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:30.000 was my own big goal. This is this is part 0:36:30.000 --> 0:36:32.920 two of the metaverse that never was um here at 0:36:33.040 --> 0:36:35.200 it could happen here and we're actually gonna be talking 0:36:35.200 --> 0:36:37.560 about like that. It couldn't wait until we launched portions 0:36:37.600 --> 0:36:39.759 of the show and pretend we never said all this 0:36:39.800 --> 0:36:42.560 ship it's going to be the best Garrison, you know, Robert, 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:47.520 remember remember when I was talking about um seek City 0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:50.719 and all of the virtual venues. I just I just 0:36:50.880 --> 0:36:53.880 I just got a message from our beloved parent company. 0:36:53.920 --> 0:36:58.399 I heart Media. We planned to extend UM shows into 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:01.319 the Metaverse, which was that which was announced a few 0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:05.640 weeks ago. But I thought that the Metaverse was a 0:37:05.640 --> 0:37:10.399 pretty good idea. I think we will talk about how 0:37:10.400 --> 0:37:12.800 the metaverse could be cool later in this episode, but 0:37:12.800 --> 0:37:15.160 then we'll explain why it won't be. But yeah, I 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:17.560 heard Media did announce the web three in the Metaverse 0:37:17.560 --> 0:37:21.280 and the newest consumer platforms for I heart media. So sorry, 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:24.239 I'm I was just working. It's it's working in a 0:37:24.280 --> 0:37:31.640 matrix for reference there, so yes, I see what. Thank you. UM. Anyway, 0:37:31.920 --> 0:37:35.840 so I'm guessing for non Neil Stevenson fans, many of 0:37:35.880 --> 0:37:40.239 you probably had not heard of the metaverse before last year. 0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:45.920 UM VR. Sure you've heard of VR A R maybe, UM, 0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:48.840 but probably just as like niche gaming technology, you know, 0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:52.279 not not this massive, not not like a massive successor 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:56.520 to the Internet. UM. Primarily three companies, Facebook, Epic Games, 0:37:56.560 --> 0:37:59.719 and Valve uh, the later two being mostly gaming and 0:38:00.000 --> 0:38:03.520 of our companies, UM kind of all decided the best 0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:07.359 way to push their niche VR and software technology into 0:38:07.400 --> 0:38:10.799 the zeitgeist was with this flashy new marketing, and it 0:38:11.160 --> 0:38:14.040 kind of worked. Metavers is now and many more people's 0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:18.120 like personal lexicon. But it's not really the metaverse, you know, 0:38:18.320 --> 0:38:21.280 like the Walmart thing. It's a way to attract investors 0:38:21.320 --> 0:38:24.200 and drum up free press, but it's still the same 0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:28.120 old VR and a R applications of the technology. None 0:38:28.120 --> 0:38:30.080 of these companies are trying to make metaverse a thing 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:34.040 that we actually want or you know, working towards an interconnected, immersive, 0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.200 three D open source successor to the Internet. All of 0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:40.359 the different websites and services we use united under one 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:44.000 digital roof, like a super platform that you know, is 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:46.600 made up of all of these sub platforms. You you 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:49.160 have social media, online gaming, and all of like the 0:38:49.280 --> 0:38:52.000 you know, ease of life apps, all accessible through the 0:38:52.000 --> 0:38:56.239 same digital space under the same digital economy. That that 0:38:56.800 --> 0:39:00.080 thing isn't happening. People like that, that's not what but 0:39:00.200 --> 0:39:02.879 with money are actually pushing towards, even though they're still 0:39:02.920 --> 0:39:06.840 using the metaverse term. Yeah. There was a great piece 0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:09.080 in Wired that came out last month as a part 0:39:09.080 --> 0:39:14.400 of their Matrix VR issue. Um. It was called the 0:39:14.400 --> 0:39:17.080 metaverse is simply big tech but bigger. It was by 0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:21.200 Cecilia di'antazio. It was so it's it's a wonderful piece 0:39:21.200 --> 0:39:24.040 and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a quote 0:39:24.040 --> 0:39:26.920 from it right here. Um. By the mid two thousands, 0:39:26.960 --> 0:39:30.080 it became clear that money wasn't in building individual websites 0:39:30.120 --> 0:39:32.640 that we could access on the open web. It was 0:39:32.719 --> 0:39:37.520 making information sorders, channels, aggregators, and publishers open enough to 0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:41.520 scale with user generated content, but closed enough to reap 0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:44.840 enormous profits. This was the evolution from Web one to 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:48.440 Web two. For nearly thirty years, the gravity of the 0:39:48.480 --> 0:39:52.800 consolidation has pulled the cyberspace together under the auspice of 0:39:52.880 --> 0:39:56.239 fewer and fewer corporate titans. The freaky little planets get 0:39:56.320 --> 0:39:59.759 drawn together, collide and make bigger planets clade again and 0:39:59.800 --> 0:40:04.200 make stars or even black holes. Facebook eats, Instagram, and WhatsApp. 0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:08.960 Amazon swallows two dozen e commerce sites, and you're left 0:40:09.000 --> 0:40:12.960 with these few supermassive players controlling and appropriating the celestial 0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:15.919 motion of billions of users. This is how big tech 0:40:16.040 --> 0:40:20.640 got big end. Quote. So yeah, like, now we have 0:40:20.719 --> 0:40:25.160 all of our isolated toolboxes, and they really fight against 0:40:25.239 --> 0:40:28.800 any inter platform integration. You have you know, Microsoft Office, 0:40:29.200 --> 0:40:31.799 and they're they're like off their office suite. You have 0:40:31.880 --> 0:40:35.200 like Google Workspace, you have Apple's own like Air, drop 0:40:35.239 --> 0:40:38.960 Apple Pages, and finally cut pro plus the the nightmare 0:40:39.000 --> 0:40:42.400 that is Adobe's subscription tools. Like Google wants you to 0:40:42.440 --> 0:40:45.160 spend all day checking your Gmail, traveling with Google Maps, 0:40:45.160 --> 0:40:48.440 watching videos on YouTube, and browsing on Chrome. Meanwhile, your 0:40:48.440 --> 0:40:51.440 friend texts you via I message, uses Apple Maps, and 0:40:51.480 --> 0:40:54.800 calls his mom on FaceTime. This is the single person 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:58.480 in the world uses Microsoft Edge. That is true, But 0:40:58.840 --> 0:41:01.480 like this, this of the Internet is the one that 0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:04.319 the metaverse is growing out of. Metaverse is just a 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:07.360 way for tech companies to add VR and a R 0:41:07.680 --> 0:41:10.879 and the accompanying extra surveillance and data collection to this 0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:14.920 poor foot to like their own portfolio of proprietary products. 0:41:15.320 --> 0:41:17.120 In order for that to happened, they need to convince 0:41:17.239 --> 0:41:20.279 us that we need headsets for the next evolution of 0:41:20.320 --> 0:41:24.040 the Internet. So it's not surprising that Facebook and Zuckerberg 0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:26.000 were the first ones to crack this thing right open. 0:41:26.480 --> 0:41:29.279 It's they own not only four of the top six 0:41:29.400 --> 0:41:32.359 social media platforms, but also Oculus, which is the most 0:41:32.360 --> 0:41:36.560 popular manufacturer of VR hardware. VR has been relegated to 0:41:36.719 --> 0:41:40.520 niche gaming technology for like basically two decades, and Zuckerberg 0:41:40.560 --> 0:41:42.520 decided the best way to sell more of its headsets 0:41:42.520 --> 0:41:44.920 and software was to give the tech a fresh new 0:41:44.960 --> 0:41:48.239 paint job and call it Metaverse and like it's sort 0:41:48.280 --> 0:41:50.919 of working that there were approximately nine point four million 0:41:50.960 --> 0:41:54.359 ship min severe headsets in two thousand one, three point 0:41:54.400 --> 0:41:56.680 six million of which were done during the holiday season 0:41:57.040 --> 0:42:00.560 after Facebook's big Metaverse event. It's the affected at the 0:42:00.640 --> 0:42:03.960 quest to which is made by Oculus. A Facebook um 0:42:04.080 --> 0:42:06.160 makes up for more than three quarters of all those 0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:11.040 headsets sold. So the Democrat demographics data isn't explicitly available, 0:42:11.360 --> 0:42:13.719 but probably a lot of kids received these things as 0:42:13.760 --> 0:42:17.600 holiday gifts um Oculus Meta. Facebook does not release its 0:42:17.760 --> 0:42:21.560 via headset sales figures, but the Oculus app that that 0:42:21.600 --> 0:42:24.320 you need to have to make the headset work shot 0:42:24.400 --> 0:42:27.600 to the top spot in Apple's App Store on Christmas Day. 0:42:27.680 --> 0:42:29.160 That was the first time it's ever been in the 0:42:29.760 --> 0:42:31.960 number one app on the App Store, so indicating a 0:42:32.000 --> 0:42:36.160 spike and headsets received as holiday gifts. So they're selling 0:42:36.200 --> 0:42:39.040 a lot of headsets, like Oculus is is selling a 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:42.480 lot of their things. Like you know, I I got 0:42:42.480 --> 0:42:45.120 one a few years ago, but you know, now there's 0:42:45.120 --> 0:42:48.920 there's there's more and more of them circulating. Um. But 0:42:49.000 --> 0:42:51.520 you know this, it's still all relegated to VR because 0:42:51.520 --> 0:42:53.759 I'm not actually metaverse. You know, arguably the closest thing 0:42:53.800 --> 0:42:57.080 we have to the actual metaverse is stuff like Roadblocks 0:42:57.080 --> 0:43:01.080 and Minecraft. Now that is still not it's I that's 0:43:01.080 --> 0:43:03.160 not immersive three D. It's you're still looking at it 0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:06.799 through a two D screen. But it is software that 0:43:06.840 --> 0:43:10.920 gives users development tools to create their own projects within 0:43:11.040 --> 0:43:14.359 this shared three D space. What separates these things and 0:43:14.400 --> 0:43:16.960 basically all attempts from making the metaverse from being the 0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:21.880 ideal metaverse is still the proprietary aspect. Everything is isolated islands. 0:43:22.080 --> 0:43:25.960 You can't take your Roadblocks game into Minecraft, right, It 0:43:26.080 --> 0:43:30.279 still is isolated to their specific things. But you know, nevertheless, 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:33.719 robox Is CEO described the company as the shepherds of 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:37.920 the metaverse in early and he is kind of right, 0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:42.799 and like, that's not that's not totally inaccurate. Um. I'm 0:43:42.840 --> 0:43:48.840 gonna quote again from the Wired piece by Cecilia di'antasio. Um, 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:53.080 if Big Text unchecked growth continues, there will be multiple metaversees, 0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:56.560 if there are any at all, Each will be interoperable 0:43:56.719 --> 0:44:00.480 under one Tech Giants giant umbrella the same a Apple 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:04.040 is both a walled garden and a convenient, habitable terrarium 0:44:04.200 --> 0:44:08.480 for its dedicated consumers. Users love the seamlessness of Apple's 0:44:08.480 --> 0:44:12.759 proprietary off porting system, the ambiguity of my message, and 0:44:12.920 --> 0:44:16.600 Apple presumably loves the commission it can charge on developers 0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:19.840 who sell apps in their app store. So Epic Games 0:44:19.880 --> 0:44:23.600 is the other big metaverse proponent right now, you know 0:44:23.840 --> 0:44:26.560 they were. They were actually making announcements about metaverse a 0:44:26.600 --> 0:44:31.800 few months before Facebook did UM and the c a 0:44:31.920 --> 0:44:35.600 l Epic Games. Tim sween Ley has been outspoken against 0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:38.280 the metaverse ran by a big tech giant like Apple. 0:44:39.160 --> 0:44:42.200 But that's not that's not really genuine because his version 0:44:42.360 --> 0:44:46.000 of the metaverse entails of cyberspace made accessible through Fortnite 0:44:46.400 --> 0:44:50.000 and Unreal Engine, two things owned by Epic Games. So like, 0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:52.960 it's not like he's not actually sincere about creating an 0:44:53.000 --> 0:44:54.920 open source thing. He just wants to be the one 0:44:54.920 --> 0:44:57.040 to control it. He's just upset that he thinks someone 0:44:57.080 --> 0:45:01.399 else might. Um. He tried to to Apple last year 0:45:01.480 --> 0:45:04.839 and and failed. UM, and the College Fornia judge told 0:45:04.920 --> 0:45:07.879 him that Epic Games seeks a systematic change which would 0:45:07.880 --> 0:45:11.600 result in a tremendous monetary gain and wealth. The lawsuit 0:45:11.640 --> 0:45:14.040 is a mechanism to challenge the policies and practices of 0:45:14.080 --> 0:45:17.160 Apple and Google, which are an impediment to Mr. Sweeney's 0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:20.800 vision of the oncoming metaverse. So it's not actually about 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:26.120 like him being against big tech giants and being against 0:45:26.120 --> 0:45:29.799 a big tech giant wren metaverse. It's just that he 0:45:29.840 --> 0:45:31.120 doesn't like that he won't be able to make as 0:45:31.200 --> 0:45:34.880 much money with it if multiple tech companies work together 0:45:34.960 --> 0:45:37.399 to make it. Like that's that's that's really what he's 0:45:37.400 --> 0:45:39.520 concerned about. He would rather be in control of this 0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:43.240 thing um because like, yeah, it would be really interesting 0:45:43.280 --> 0:45:47.520 to see if multiple tech giants work together to create 0:45:47.600 --> 0:45:50.399 an actual successor to the Internet, like an actual like 0:45:50.480 --> 0:45:51.960 you know how the Internet is just when you open 0:45:52.040 --> 0:45:53.640 up your computer and you have access to the net. 0:45:53.840 --> 0:45:56.320 It's not it's it's not like running a specific program 0:45:56.480 --> 0:45:58.439 you get to go on all the things. It would 0:45:58.480 --> 0:46:00.640 be interesting if people actually work to it's creating that. 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:04.560 But no, it's all about creating very isolated operating systems 0:46:04.560 --> 0:46:07.160 with a very isolated tool like tool chest, Like you 0:46:07.200 --> 0:46:11.719 can't access Steam games via the Oculus store. These things don't. 0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:13.640 These things don't work. Now you can oculus. You can 0:46:13.719 --> 0:46:16.279 use the oculus on Steam games, but not vice versa. 0:46:16.800 --> 0:46:18.960 They're making things the way they're making things because they're 0:46:18.960 --> 0:46:21.359 not trying to design a new Internet because, for one thing, 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:23.520 the Internet wasn't designed. It was like the result of 0:46:23.560 --> 0:46:26.759 a bunch of people who were doing things that interested them, 0:46:26.800 --> 0:46:30.080 all kind of intersecting and building upon each other. And second, 0:46:30.160 --> 0:46:34.640 like the they're they're not they're making individual profit tunnels. 0:46:34.640 --> 0:46:38.520 They're not actually trying to create. Um, they're not trying 0:46:38.520 --> 0:46:41.440 to like actually trying to think about what people might 0:46:41.520 --> 0:46:44.440 want next, or what people might might want beyond the Internet. 0:46:44.480 --> 0:46:47.239 They're thinking, how what can we sell that we're not 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:50.000 currently selling? And that's never going to be the thing 0:46:50.040 --> 0:46:53.640 that figures out. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. On on 0:46:53.719 --> 0:46:55.719 that point, I'm gonna do one final quote from the 0:46:55.760 --> 0:46:59.480 Wired piece. Um, if if these companies dominating cyberspace did 0:46:59.520 --> 0:47:03.080 decide to collaborate simultaneously, piecing together opposite sides of the 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:05.799 quilt to create a digital tech style, that would be 0:47:05.920 --> 0:47:09.600 very polite. But is there a world in which Microsoft, Facebook, 0:47:09.640 --> 0:47:14.799 Epic Games, Apple, uh Navidia, etcetera combine all of their 0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:17.880 valuable products captain Planet style into an architect of the 0:47:17.920 --> 0:47:22.200 metaverse under open source standards. Nobody in particular roops billions 0:47:22.239 --> 0:47:25.080 from That's sort of a tall task to overhaul your 0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:27.960 code and collaborate with your competitors. Why would three or 0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:30.839 four tech giants partner to make a metaverse when they 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:34.160 already spent decades and billions constructing one of their own. 0:47:34.520 --> 0:47:37.080 So yeah, it's it's never gonna happen. The way the 0:47:37.120 --> 0:47:41.399 way society is made, the way internetworks, that's not ever 0:47:41.480 --> 0:47:44.680 going to be a thing. Speaking of companies and things 0:47:44.719 --> 0:47:49.440 that you can buy online and advertising, here's some ads 0:47:51.640 --> 0:47:55.440 and we're back, and we're gonna talk about possibly the 0:47:55.440 --> 0:48:00.239 most successful version of air of of their techno aology. 0:48:00.280 --> 0:48:03.480 We're gonna talk about the actual use cases that are 0:48:03.560 --> 0:48:09.880 generating actual profit. So there is a there was a 0:48:09.880 --> 0:48:13.200 tweet a few days ago that I'm just gonna read 0:48:13.239 --> 0:48:16.160 the tweet and then then we'll talk about the implications. Um. 0:48:16.400 --> 0:48:19.399 This one very very viral. UM. I caught this very 0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:21.920 early on, though, and I started writing about it, and 0:48:21.920 --> 0:48:23.760 then a whole bunch of articles dropped on the topic. 0:48:24.719 --> 0:48:26.840 A farmer in Turkey has fitted his cows with the 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:30.000 virtual reality goggles to make them think they're outside in 0:48:30.040 --> 0:48:33.080 summer pastures. The farmer found out that these pleasant scenes 0:48:33.120 --> 0:48:36.520 make the cows happier and produce more milk. Futures metaverse, 0:48:38.640 --> 0:48:41.760 So we're gonna talk We're gonna talk about the cow Matrix. 0:48:41.840 --> 0:48:51.200 We're gonna talk about Yeah, yeah, it is to go 0:48:51.280 --> 0:48:53.279 back in time and tell people, hey, you know that 0:48:53.360 --> 0:48:55.360 hit movie The Matrix in the future, We're going to 0:48:55.480 --> 0:48:59.680 do that, but for more milk to get k. So 0:49:00.440 --> 0:49:01.840 the thing that went viral about it that kind of 0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:03.600 broke the story for a lot of people was this 0:49:03.640 --> 0:49:06.239 farmer in Turkey with the pictures of the cows with 0:49:06.320 --> 0:49:10.400 VR goggles on them. Pretty pretty pretty fucked up. UM. 0:49:10.440 --> 0:49:14.160 But the idea and the actual technology used came from 0:49:14.400 --> 0:49:18.320 came from Russia. UM. Farmers worked together with developers of 0:49:18.640 --> 0:49:23.440 veterinarians and consultants at the Oh boy, here, here's a 0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:28.040 Russian town name, or I guess a farm name, Kragskernof. 0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:31.759 I don't know ye that, it's I think we can 0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:34.839 we can were we? I think you nailed it. It's 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:37.880 it's it's this farm near Moscow. UM. And they teamed 0:49:37.960 --> 0:49:40.480 up so all these you know farmers, developers and vets 0:49:40.520 --> 0:49:43.120 and consultants teamed up to make this cow matrix project 0:49:43.680 --> 0:49:46.400 um and there was an official statement from the Moscow 0:49:46.440 --> 0:49:50.920 Ministry of Food and Agriculture reads the global trend towards 0:49:51.000 --> 0:49:56.160 universal computerization. The significant significantly simplifies work processes in many 0:49:56.200 --> 0:50:00.400 areas that and allows you to achieve unprecedented results. Russian 0:50:00.400 --> 0:50:03.600 milk producers keep up with the world standards and are 0:50:03.640 --> 0:50:07.200 even ready to offer the market new and unexpected solutions. 0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:10.239 On a farm in the Moscow region, a prototype of 0:50:10.280 --> 0:50:13.400 virtual reality glasses were tested to improve the conditions for 0:50:13.480 --> 0:50:16.800 keeping cows. Employees of one of the largest farms in 0:50:16.800 --> 0:50:19.520 the Moscow region, together with i T specialists, decided to 0:50:19.560 --> 0:50:23.080 conduct an experiment studying the influence of virtual reality and 0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:29.440 developed a layout of VR glasses. So the herd donned 0:50:29.480 --> 0:50:33.719 these VR systems adapted for the heads of cows. Um 0:50:33.800 --> 0:50:36.560 so and they also had to they had to to 0:50:36.560 --> 0:50:38.799 to make the imagery work. They need to tweak the 0:50:38.800 --> 0:50:41.239 color palette in the software to make it suitable for 0:50:41.320 --> 0:50:44.480 the cow's vision because cows can't see rudder green, so 0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:46.640 there's just shades of yellow and blue. So in order 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:48.560 to replicate what grass click to them, they have to 0:50:48.600 --> 0:50:52.200 you know, change the stuff. Um. But yeah, and then 0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:59.000 they programmed a unique summer field simulation program and subjected 0:50:59.040 --> 0:51:02.960 it onto these cows. Uh. The ministry, the Russian Ministry 0:51:03.040 --> 0:51:05.200 of Out Your Culture concluded that the cow matrix does 0:51:05.239 --> 0:51:09.520 work UM. In a statement from t A a few 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:13.799 years ago, officials said environmental conditions have significant have a 0:51:13.840 --> 0:51:17.279 significant impact on cow health and as a consequence, the 0:51:17.320 --> 0:51:22.920 equality and quantity of milk produced. So you know, like 0:51:22.960 --> 0:51:25.600 this is the thing. I I talked with, um, someone 0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:27.160 I know about this, and they're like, well, if it 0:51:27.200 --> 0:51:30.239 makes the cow like actually happier and healthier than like, 0:51:30.360 --> 0:51:33.000 what's the problem. And like the problem is is that 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:37.600 like you're gas lighting and entire creature's reality. Like you're 0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:42.000 like you're you're you're like not consentually cass lighting their reality. 0:51:42.040 --> 0:51:45.080 And I that is I don't like that. I don't eat. 0:51:45.120 --> 0:51:47.799 Everything we do to cows is without their consent. So 0:51:47.840 --> 0:51:49.680 I it's one of those things where it's like, but 0:51:49.719 --> 0:51:52.239 we're also not gaslighting their reality and this like we're 0:51:52.239 --> 0:51:55.480 not depriving their senses of what the world is. No, 0:51:55.719 --> 0:52:00.279 this seems like an escalation in our war on the cow. Yeah, 0:52:00.719 --> 0:52:03.719 so you know this other farmer in Turkey heard about 0:52:03.719 --> 0:52:05.560 this and decided to try it out on his cows. 0:52:06.160 --> 0:52:08.920 Um And yeah, the fund up cow matrix or the 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:12.120 cow tricks does seem to do its job extracting more 0:52:12.160 --> 0:52:16.480 milk from the cow to increase profitability. Quote from quote 0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:18.600 from the farmer said, uh, we get an average twenty 0:52:18.640 --> 0:52:20.759 two liters of milk per day from the cows in 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:23.640 our farm. The milk average of the two cows that 0:52:23.640 --> 0:52:26.720 wore the VR glasses went up to twenty seven liters. 0:52:27.719 --> 0:52:30.680 So yeah, when when When the story first broke there 0:52:30.760 --> 0:52:33.799 was the most popular article was from a site called Futurism, 0:52:33.840 --> 0:52:36.440 which made made me made me very depressive about this 0:52:36.640 --> 0:52:43.440 about futurismism Garrison. Yeah, and it made me mad enough 0:52:43.480 --> 0:52:44.799 that I'm going to read some of its to you. 0:52:46.400 --> 0:52:53.880 Thank god, I haven't been angry in seconds. That cows 0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:57.000 produced more milk when VR makes them think they're in 0:52:57.040 --> 0:53:01.239 beautiful green pastures. Proves that keeping them in agriculture environments 0:53:01.280 --> 0:53:03.960 isn't healthy nor does it make them happy. Putting them 0:53:03.960 --> 0:53:06.440 in a cow matrix does sound a little grim, yes, 0:53:06.640 --> 0:53:09.320 but you can't argue with the results. Oh my god, 0:53:10.800 --> 0:53:16.080 I can I say you actually can. If all this 0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:19.440 has shown is that like potentially, if you put cows 0:53:19.440 --> 0:53:21.760 in this thing during the winter, when it's not sunny 0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:25.600 and bright outside, then they are happier. This is not 0:53:25.640 --> 0:53:28.960 shown that, for example, taking all cows out of pastures 0:53:29.000 --> 0:53:32.840 and sticking them in matrix boxes would make them because 0:53:32.880 --> 0:53:34.719 the thing is they're not they're on pastors. They're in 0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:37.200 little jail cells with VR goggles on their head. So 0:53:37.280 --> 0:53:39.959 like it's that that was that was the use case. 0:53:39.960 --> 0:53:43.080 And like the quote from the farmers, like they're watching 0:53:43.080 --> 0:53:45.279 green pasture and it gives them an emotional boost. They 0:53:45.280 --> 0:53:48.000 are less stressed. Um. And the farmers that he plans 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.000 to be plans to buy ten more It's like you 0:53:50.040 --> 0:53:54.759 can spend thousands of dollars on specialized cal VR headsets, Um, 0:53:54.920 --> 0:53:56.640 or you can you know, like use that money to 0:53:56.719 --> 0:53:59.800 buy more land for the cows to spread out. And 0:54:00.080 --> 0:54:02.319 if we're at that point in society that in order 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:04.359 to make in order to in order to make enough 0:54:04.480 --> 0:54:07.480 cow milk, we need to gaslight cows by overruling their 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:09.560 senses with a clunky of your headset on their little 0:54:09.560 --> 0:54:12.320 fuzzy faces. Maybe we should start having milk, Maybe we 0:54:12.360 --> 0:54:15.760 should like maybe that's it, Like if we require this 0:54:16.200 --> 0:54:20.040 to have milk in our cereal, then nope, no more, 0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:22.880 not not gonna. I'm not gonna do that. I refuse. 0:54:23.320 --> 0:54:25.839 That's not like it's already And if you practice, if 0:54:25.840 --> 0:54:28.239 you don't buy milk like like locally from a farm, 0:54:28.280 --> 0:54:31.279 you know, so if we're doing this, that just like 0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:34.279 immediately checks me out of every like, no, I'm just 0:54:34.760 --> 0:54:39.840 fully fully not. Yeah, I think that's kind of evil. 0:54:40.040 --> 0:54:42.759 I think that's kind of evil. Like the whole industry 0:54:42.800 --> 0:54:45.320 way by which we produce meat at scale is pretty evil. 0:54:45.719 --> 0:54:50.319 But that's an escalation. It's it's the specific thing of 0:54:50.360 --> 0:54:54.640 like of of of overruling their reality and senses um 0:54:54.680 --> 0:54:58.560 of another living creature like that is for some reason, 0:54:58.600 --> 0:55:01.319 for some reason, that that send them into a way 0:55:01.480 --> 0:55:03.520 in order for you to get like meat, And that's 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:06.879 just like turning them into food, but like making their 0:55:06.920 --> 0:55:09.680 living really shitty and then making trying to trick them 0:55:09.680 --> 0:55:12.279 to thinking they're not. Yeah, it's even worse than just 0:55:12.360 --> 0:55:14.440 having them live in shitty conditions, I think from an 0:55:14.440 --> 0:55:17.040 as standpoint, And maybe it's more pleasant for the animal, 0:55:17.080 --> 0:55:20.359 but from like our standpoint, it's worse to me. Yep. 0:55:21.080 --> 0:55:28.200 So speaking of uh, I don't know, don't cows? Is 0:55:28.239 --> 0:55:31.400 there some segway that we can work this in? You 0:55:31.440 --> 0:55:35.000 know what does essentially force you to live in an 0:55:35.040 --> 0:55:39.359 alternate reality that allows you to be more productive for 0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:44.360 the people who make money based on your existence buying 0:55:44.440 --> 0:55:46.840 these products and services that supporting this podcast. I was 0:55:46.880 --> 0:55:51.600 just gonna say podcasts in general do that. But yes, cool, 0:55:52.160 --> 0:55:55.279 al Right, we are back and my last, my last 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:59.520 big section here is titled we are the Cows. So 0:55:59.640 --> 0:56:02.200 this is that's gonna that's gonna give you a sense 0:56:02.239 --> 0:56:04.160 of how of how we're going to talk about what 0:56:06.600 --> 0:56:10.680 so what what? What the cow Tricks really demonstrates, though, 0:56:11.040 --> 0:56:12.880 is that the end goal of all this is to 0:56:12.920 --> 0:56:15.359 make us the cow? Right? You know we we and 0:56:15.440 --> 0:56:17.720 we already are to some degree with like the Internet 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:20.719 and smart and smartphones. But this is more. This is 0:56:20.760 --> 0:56:24.600 an escalation, right like the people, the ghoules, that Silicon 0:56:24.680 --> 0:56:28.440 Valley and you know, the whole tech world want they 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:31.760 want a world where we are forced to don hardware 0:56:31.840 --> 0:56:35.560 rigs that block out our body's senses and replace the 0:56:35.600 --> 0:56:39.880 input with digital coded counterfeit. That's that's an Internet that 0:56:39.880 --> 0:56:42.480 tries to convince you that you're inside of it and 0:56:42.600 --> 0:56:45.120 it is inside of you. That that's that's that's that 0:56:45.239 --> 0:56:47.759 is what they want. Really, Like, even if we get 0:56:47.760 --> 0:56:50.200 the metaverse that I would prefer, you know, like the 0:56:50.239 --> 0:56:53.719 mythical open source, interconnected successor to the Internet with all 0:56:53.760 --> 0:56:56.480 these different websites, tools and games that I like all 0:56:56.520 --> 0:57:00.439 together and intuitively accessible through a share digital space. Even 0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:02.680 if we get that, like, which we won't, And if 0:57:02.680 --> 0:57:05.359 there's safeguards to protect digital privacy that are built in, 0:57:05.440 --> 0:57:08.359 which there wouldn't be, that doesn't actually make the real 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:12.799 world much better. Like in my opinion, air technology specifically 0:57:12.840 --> 0:57:17.800 could be really cool, um, but but redesigning the world 0:57:17.840 --> 0:57:22.320 to require headsets, goggles or air glasses would suck, Like now, 0:57:22.880 --> 0:57:25.120 not only for people who can't get the technology right. 0:57:25.120 --> 0:57:27.120 If if we redesign the world to be like the 0:57:27.120 --> 0:57:30.400 only way to interact with systems is through this digital lens, 0:57:30.560 --> 0:57:32.520 that's gonna suck. We we now we already had that 0:57:32.560 --> 0:57:34.280 does some degree with smartphones on the Internet, but this 0:57:34.320 --> 0:57:38.360 is another escalation of it. And again, like like the cow, 0:57:38.760 --> 0:57:40.720 it's just gonna be a way to paint over our 0:57:40.800 --> 0:57:44.240 late capitalist climate disaster of a world. Uh. Metaverse is 0:57:44.280 --> 0:57:47.760 a tech capitalist solution to our current and pressing political 0:57:47.800 --> 0:57:52.160 and ontological problems. And I have to used the bathroom 0:57:52.200 --> 0:57:54.880 really badly. Well, I'll talk for a little while. I 0:57:54.920 --> 0:57:56.960 think a big part of what Garrison is saying is 0:57:57.040 --> 0:58:02.480 that instead of relying on these tech industry goougles to 0:58:02.920 --> 0:58:05.240 build the future for you, which is a future in 0:58:05.280 --> 0:58:08.800 which they sell you away to hide from the hell 0:58:08.920 --> 0:58:10.840 that they have made of the world and others like 0:58:10.920 --> 0:58:12.840 them have made of the world. Instead of doing that, 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:15.720 you've just spend the rest of your life listening to podcasts. 0:58:15.840 --> 0:58:18.600 Put put blinders on over your eyes, cover up all 0:58:18.640 --> 0:58:22.080 of your senses but your ears, and just exist forever 0:58:22.200 --> 0:58:26.120 in a concoon made entirely of my voice and occasionally 0:58:26.120 --> 0:58:29.600 Garrison and Chris's and Sophie's voice, but mainly my voice. 0:58:30.120 --> 0:58:33.120 And they're saying, not listen to just any podcast but 0:58:33.240 --> 0:58:36.320 podcasts that you benefit from. I don't think people should 0:58:36.360 --> 0:58:38.560 listen to any podcasts that I don't do. That doesn't 0:58:38.560 --> 0:58:43.800 seem right. So where's my angle on that? Huh? I 0:58:43.840 --> 0:58:46.960 don't know. Um, I don't know how long we should 0:58:47.000 --> 0:58:51.360 vamp while Garrison just leaves in the middle. I really 0:58:51.400 --> 0:58:54.600 need to I really needed to see. Well, it's okay. 0:58:54.680 --> 0:58:57.720 I just told everybody that we're the metaverse. Now, Garrison 0:58:57.720 --> 0:59:00.560 our contact. I drink so much coffee this morning. It 0:59:00.680 --> 0:59:04.360 was a problem. Okay. In similar to all this, you know, 0:59:04.840 --> 0:59:09.120 remember the John Carmike interview from Yes That's such a bumber, 0:59:09.400 --> 0:59:13.120 the Doom co creator and former CTO of Ovoculus, Yes 0:59:13.200 --> 0:59:16.520 these bodies are a curse job on the journoun Show. 0:59:16.560 --> 0:59:18.720 He openly said the promise of yr is to make 0:59:18.720 --> 0:59:21.400 the world you wanted. It is not possible on Earth 0:59:21.440 --> 0:59:24.040 to give everyone what they would want. Not everyone can 0:59:24.080 --> 0:59:28.280 have Richard Branson private islands. People react negatively to any 0:59:28.280 --> 0:59:31.080 talk of economics, but it's a resource allocation. You have 0:59:31.080 --> 0:59:33.920 to make decisions about where things go. Economically, you can 0:59:33.960 --> 0:59:35.800 deliver a lot more value to a lot more people. 0:59:35.920 --> 0:59:39.160 In the virtual sense, we can have virtual devices that 0:59:39.240 --> 0:59:41.400 can get cheap enough that lots and lots of people 0:59:41.400 --> 0:59:43.600 will be able to have these. Not everyone can have 0:59:43.640 --> 0:59:45.600 a mention, Not everyone can have a home theater. These 0:59:45.600 --> 0:59:47.800 are things we can simulate, though to some degree in 0:59:47.880 --> 0:59:50.320 virtual reality, the simulation is not as good as the 0:59:50.480 --> 0:59:52.880 as the real thing. If you're rich, you probably have 0:59:52.920 --> 0:59:55.120 your own home theater or mentioned in private island. Good 0:59:55.120 --> 0:59:56.560 for you. You're probably not the people who's going to 0:59:56.640 --> 0:59:59.760 benefit the most from this thing. Most of the people 0:59:59.840 --> 1:00:03.360 in a world lived in cramped quarters and are not, 1:00:03.520 --> 1:00:05.520 and they wouldn't and that's not what they would choose 1:00:05.560 --> 1:00:08.280 to be and if they had a limited resources. There's 1:00:08.320 --> 1:00:10.200 this piece of art that goes around the internet. It's 1:00:10.520 --> 1:00:14.320 this dystopian kid in a corner drooling with goggles on, 1:00:14.600 --> 1:00:17.680 with like rainbow pictures. But it's a terrible looking place, 1:00:17.960 --> 1:00:20.040 and people say, this is the world you're trying to build, 1:00:20.040 --> 1:00:23.080 people plugged into virtual reality and ignoring the world around them, 1:00:23.360 --> 1:00:28.080 And Carmacs responses and encouraging. He says, but is his 1:00:28.160 --> 1:00:30.240 life really better off if he takes the goggles off 1:00:30.280 --> 1:00:33.480 and he's in the horrible place? So I I think 1:00:33.480 --> 1:00:36.560 Carmack really has convinced himself that virtual reality is a 1:00:36.600 --> 1:00:39.640 path to making the world a better place. In the interview, 1:00:39.680 --> 1:00:42.880 he compares VR to the invention of like air conditioning. 1:00:43.080 --> 1:00:45.120 He says, like I live in Dallas, it's a hundred 1:00:45.120 --> 1:00:48.040 degrees here. We change the world around us in all 1:00:48.120 --> 1:00:50.800 that we do. We live in air conditioning. People don't 1:00:50.840 --> 1:00:53.400 generally go, oh, you're not experiencing the world around you 1:00:53.440 --> 1:00:55.720 because of air conditioning. This is what human beings do. 1:00:55.840 --> 1:00:57.720 We bend the world to our will, and this is 1:00:57.760 --> 1:01:00.320 how things get better by building, by building techn oology 1:01:00.360 --> 1:01:02.360 and distributing them to people so that they have something 1:01:02.360 --> 1:01:04.000 better than what we would they would have if they 1:01:04.000 --> 1:01:06.640 didn't exist. Now, if you dig into what he's saying, 1:01:06.640 --> 1:01:09.520 here's actually a few interesting things. Because for one, yeah, 1:01:09.600 --> 1:01:12.040 air conditioning is actually kind of bad, like the way 1:01:12.080 --> 1:01:14.640 we're using it and whatever presents it is a band 1:01:14.640 --> 1:01:17.200 aid solution to our continual problem of heating up the earth, 1:01:17.320 --> 1:01:20.439 and it's making the problem worse every single day. Yeah, 1:01:20.560 --> 1:01:22.760 And honestly it's it's yeah, it's like it's like a 1:01:22.800 --> 1:01:24.800 band aid that also makes the problem worse because a 1:01:24.920 --> 1:01:29.720 C contributes to a lot of energy. Shit. But you know, 1:01:29.840 --> 1:01:33.480 air conditioning is also an actual material change, right, like 1:01:33.880 --> 1:01:36.280 it can it can actually help people not die due 1:01:36.320 --> 1:01:39.800 to heat. The metaverseon VR has talked about does not 1:01:39.920 --> 1:01:43.400 improve a middle to lower class person's material conditions, and 1:01:43.520 --> 1:01:46.520 to say so demonstrates how disconnected these tech bros. Are 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:50.680 from a regular person's reality. The metaphors and VR and 1:01:50.760 --> 1:01:53.560 like virtual worlds are going to be built based on 1:01:53.600 --> 1:01:57.000 the perception of reality held by those who create them. 1:01:57.040 --> 1:02:00.160 That's why we're getting shitty digital private movie theaters, make 1:02:00.240 --> 1:02:03.360 mentions and metaverse concerts and h and M n F 1:02:03.400 --> 1:02:06.440 T stores. They're giving us a simulated version of the 1:02:06.480 --> 1:02:08.880 world that they actually get to live in for real. 1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:11.840 But we can refuse this. We we don't need to 1:02:11.880 --> 1:02:13.760 take them up on this offer. If we're gonna be 1:02:13.800 --> 1:02:18.480 stuck with with multiple proprietary branded meta verses that are 1:02:18.560 --> 1:02:20.960 made by rich tech bros To mirror a world that 1:02:21.040 --> 1:02:22.680 the that the rich tech bro gets to live in, 1:02:23.080 --> 1:02:24.640 the best thing we can do is funk with it. 1:02:24.760 --> 1:02:27.080 We can sabotage it from the inside. We need to 1:02:27.160 --> 1:02:30.000 spam floating dicks at a metaverse concert. This is the 1:02:30.040 --> 1:02:34.200 actual thing that needs to happen, because look, we all 1:02:34.240 --> 1:02:37.959 know terrorism is fun, right, everybody loves terrorism, but there's 1:02:38.040 --> 1:02:40.880 horrible consequences for doing it in the real world. In 1:02:40.920 --> 1:02:44.880 the metaverse, there's no laws against terrorism. Yet you can 1:02:45.080 --> 1:02:48.080 terrorize however you want in the metaverse, and it's just trolling. 1:02:48.120 --> 1:02:50.320 And that's fine, so do that much of it as 1:02:50.360 --> 1:02:53.800 possible until they make it illegal. The concept that would 1:02:53.800 --> 1:02:55.720 go really well with this type of thing is the 1:02:55.720 --> 1:03:00.080 poet terrorism concept of this applies like perfectly to this 1:03:00.320 --> 1:03:02.440 idea of how we need to funk with these digital 1:03:02.440 --> 1:03:05.360 spaces that are trying to be created, because yeah, like 1:03:05.560 --> 1:03:10.040 they're like they're pretty bad. During one Bitcoin consumed all 1:03:10.080 --> 1:03:15.200 of the electrical energy um by equivalent to a country 1:03:15.200 --> 1:03:20.640 like Argentina um in the Bitcoin network handled like nineties 1:03:20.640 --> 1:03:25.360 seven million transactions, so this is roughly zero point zero 1:03:25.560 --> 1:03:28.439 one two per cent of the worldwide volume of non 1:03:28.480 --> 1:03:33.680 cash transactions. But bitcoin was responsible for zero point five 1:03:33.720 --> 1:03:37.960 four of global electricity consumption on total, which is astronomical, 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:41.680 Like that's all like that's it's either it's ridiculate on average, 1:03:42.040 --> 1:03:47.479 that's like uh like thirteen hundred kill about hours poor 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:51.600 per bitcoin transaction, which is so much energy. The power 1:03:51.640 --> 1:03:55.680 consumed by a single Bitcoin transaction on average could power 1:03:55.760 --> 1:03:58.640 an average US household for one and a half months. 1:03:59.400 --> 1:04:02.640 It's it is ridiculous how much and how much it's 1:04:02.640 --> 1:04:05.240 getting used. And they're trying to build, you know, like 1:04:05.280 --> 1:04:07.720 the Sek City thing. They're trying to build this metaverse 1:04:07.840 --> 1:04:11.680 off of Crypto, which they're like, I'm sad because like, 1:04:11.800 --> 1:04:15.520 crypto could be really similar to the metaverse. Crypto could 1:04:15.520 --> 1:04:17.960 be really rad, Like crypto could be an actually super 1:04:17.960 --> 1:04:20.320 red thing, but the way it's being used right now 1:04:20.720 --> 1:04:25.800 is really environmentally damaging. UM and this this linking of 1:04:26.320 --> 1:04:28.720 Web three, you know, the mythical Web three and the 1:04:28.760 --> 1:04:32.440 metaverse to crypto is showing like, yeah, it's it's is 1:04:32.520 --> 1:04:34.160 kind of like the band aid solution, where it's not 1:04:34.240 --> 1:04:36.720 it's it's, it's not it's not actually fixing the problem, 1:04:36.760 --> 1:04:39.280 and it's kind of making the problem worse because they're 1:04:39.280 --> 1:04:41.720 so set on linking it to crypto right now that 1:04:41.880 --> 1:04:44.720 it's it sucks, like it it's it's, it's it's gonna happen, 1:04:44.760 --> 1:04:47.080 It's gonna suck. What you can do is you can 1:04:47.120 --> 1:04:49.800 spam Final Fantasy seven porn, you can spam Sonic, the 1:04:49.800 --> 1:04:52.840 Hedgehog feet picks. This is this is the only tool 1:04:52.880 --> 1:04:56.880 we have. But save for actual terrorism, which we're not 1:04:56.880 --> 1:04:59.600 gonna talk about on this podcast, you can, but we 1:04:59.640 --> 1:05:01.680 can't got a poetic terrorism. That is something that you 1:05:01.720 --> 1:05:03.640 can do. You can funk with these systems from the 1:05:03.640 --> 1:05:07.480 inside and make them unusable and that's that's really the 1:05:07.520 --> 1:05:10.760 only thing. And that's what I'm gonna do in my 1:05:10.840 --> 1:05:14.680 spare time because it's fine. Yeah, um, do do poetic 1:05:14.760 --> 1:05:17.720 terrorism in the metaverse. Um, go funk it up for them. 1:05:17.800 --> 1:05:20.920 Um and maybe in the process, here's my dream, garrison 1:05:21.400 --> 1:05:24.080 that perhaps in the process of sucking it up for them, 1:05:24.280 --> 1:05:28.360 we build something that we actually like. That's the thing, right, Yeah, 1:05:28.400 --> 1:05:30.640 that is similar to how the Internet kind of got 1:05:30.640 --> 1:05:33.400 originally created. Of course, now it's turned into this hellscape, 1:05:33.600 --> 1:05:36.560 but that'll probably that will probably happen anyway ten years 1:05:36.640 --> 1:05:38.640 or more for the meta but we can get a 1:05:38.680 --> 1:05:40.760 little bit of fun out of it and we can 1:05:40.800 --> 1:05:42.400 have some fun with it like we did on the 1:05:42.440 --> 1:05:45.600 Internet for a couple of years or it all got 1:05:45.640 --> 1:05:48.640 real bad. So that is that is the metaverse that 1:05:48.680 --> 1:05:52.520 doesn't exist. Um and yeah, So fight against the cow 1:05:52.640 --> 1:05:57.640 matrix as best as you can. Do your best out 1:05:58.440 --> 1:06:01.040 go the city for the house at the top the world. 1:06:02.240 --> 1:06:10.720 Make a cowsy on. It's up to us. This is depressing, alright, 1:06:10.880 --> 1:06:20.959 that's the episode. Look for your children's eyes to see 1:06:21.000 --> 1:06:24.600 the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world 1:06:24.640 --> 1:06:27.680 for them. You look and see a tree, They see 1:06:27.680 --> 1:06:30.880 the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to 1:06:30.960 --> 1:06:34.240 the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a 1:06:34.240 --> 1:06:37.800 windy path that could lead to adventure, and they see you. 1:06:38.360 --> 1:06:42.360 They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find a forest 1:06:42.400 --> 1:06:45.360 near you and start exploring and discover the forest. Dot 1:06:45.440 --> 1:06:47.760 Org brought to you by the United States Forest Service 1:06:47.800 --> 1:06:52.080 and the AD Council. Hello, Hello, Hey. I don't know 1:06:52.120 --> 1:06:55.280 if you hurt, but my podcast Checking It has been 1:06:55.280 --> 1:06:58.240 nominated for the d a CP Image Award in the 1:06:58.280 --> 1:07:03.480 category of Outstanding Lifestyle and Self Help Podcast. I'm grateful 1:07:03.520 --> 1:07:06.120 for the nomination. I I almost didn't even do a 1:07:06.160 --> 1:07:08.680 podcast because I was just wandering. There are thousands of 1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:12.320 podcasts out there and why is my voice needed. But 1:07:12.400 --> 1:07:15.240 a nomination from the end of a CP lets me 1:07:15.360 --> 1:07:18.400 know that I made the right choice, and I encourage 1:07:18.400 --> 1:07:20.760 you to do. Don't worry if there are thousands of 1:07:20.880 --> 1:07:24.240 something else that you want to do. No nobody has 1:07:24.240 --> 1:07:26.600 your sauce, so listen. You can still vote. Go to 1:07:26.680 --> 1:07:29.160 vote dot in double a CP Image Awards dot net. 1:07:29.240 --> 1:07:33.320 You have until February five, um nine pm Eastern Standard time, 1:07:33.600 --> 1:07:35.920 and please Listen to my podcast. We're part of the 1:07:35.920 --> 1:07:38.800 Black Effect podcast Network on the I Heart Radio app 1:07:38.880 --> 1:07:41.920 or wherever you get your podcast. Thank you for checking in. 1:07:50.760 --> 1:07:53.920 Conquer your new year's resolution to be more productive with 1:07:54.000 --> 1:07:57.960 the Before Breakfast podcast. In each bite sized daily episode, 1:07:58.080 --> 1:08:02.080 time Management and Productivity at Expert Laura Vanderkam teaches you 1:08:02.160 --> 1:08:04.240 how to make the most of your time, both at 1:08:04.280 --> 1:08:07.640 work and at home. These are the practical suggestions you 1:08:07.720 --> 1:08:10.440 need to get more done with your day. Just as 1:08:10.480 --> 1:08:13.560 lifting weights keeps our body strong as we age, learning 1:08:13.560 --> 1:08:17.120 new skills is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen 1:08:17.160 --> 1:08:27.000 to Before Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to 1:08:27.080 --> 1:08:29.839 It Could Happen Here, a show about things falling apart 1:08:29.920 --> 1:08:32.920 and how to maybe put them back together a little 1:08:32.920 --> 1:08:36.320 bit better than they were before. I am Robert Evans, 1:08:36.640 --> 1:08:38.799 and with me this week is I guess I'm very 1:08:38.800 --> 1:08:44.120 excited about Chris Begley, author of the Next Apocalypse, The 1:08:44.320 --> 1:08:47.080 Art and Science of Survival. Chris. Welcome to the show. 1:08:47.960 --> 1:08:51.639 Thank you now, Chris. Before we get into the meat 1:08:51.680 --> 1:08:54.680 of our discussion, I have to talk about what you 1:08:54.720 --> 1:08:56.760 do for a living, because for years and years it 1:08:56.800 --> 1:08:59.040 was my job to go around the world. I talked 1:08:59.040 --> 1:09:02.000 to people and pretty much very continent about their different 1:09:02.040 --> 1:09:05.080 interesting jobs. So I've I've talked interviewed everybody from like 1:09:05.120 --> 1:09:10.400 Bravo workers in Nevada to Iraqi counter terrorism special forces 1:09:10.439 --> 1:09:14.040 in Iraq. And you have probably the coolest job title 1:09:14.080 --> 1:09:18.000 if anybody I've met. You're an underwater archaeologist. That's right. 1:09:18.880 --> 1:09:22.200 How did you? Um? How did you? I mean? Was 1:09:22.240 --> 1:09:25.040 that was it just kind of like were you kind 1:09:25.040 --> 1:09:26.880 of laser focused on that goal or was it more 1:09:26.920 --> 1:09:29.320 you were interested in archaeology and you loved diving, and 1:09:29.400 --> 1:09:32.240 so the two just kind of made sense together. Yeah. Well, 1:09:32.280 --> 1:09:36.440 I started out as ah what now called a terrestrial archaeologist, 1:09:36.800 --> 1:09:39.960 you know, working on the land as most people do, 1:09:40.040 --> 1:09:44.879 and worked for years in Central America. Honduras was my focus, 1:09:44.920 --> 1:09:48.120 as you saw in the book, but other other places 1:09:48.400 --> 1:09:52.760 uh nearby as well, And really it was about I 1:09:52.800 --> 1:09:56.840 would say, I don't know, twelve thirteen, fourteen years ago. 1:09:58.040 --> 1:10:00.760 I wanted to just branch out and little bit from that. 1:10:00.880 --> 1:10:04.920 And one of the things that that all archaeologists have 1:10:05.000 --> 1:10:07.080 seen is that you know, there are certain things that 1:10:07.200 --> 1:10:11.439 really just aren't as explored as other things, and one 1:10:11.479 --> 1:10:15.080 was all of the archaeological resources underwater. I mean, we 1:10:15.160 --> 1:10:20.680 hear about underwater archaeology or maritime archaeology in the Mediterranean, right, 1:10:20.800 --> 1:10:24.000 you know, a Roman shipwrecks and all that, But there 1:10:24.040 --> 1:10:27.479 are big chunks of the world where we've done very 1:10:27.560 --> 1:10:30.559 little to see what's out there, you know. And one 1:10:30.600 --> 1:10:33.479 other interesting thing about that is there are many different 1:10:33.479 --> 1:10:35.639 things you could look at underwater, but often we look 1:10:35.640 --> 1:10:40.320 at shipwrecks. And shipwrecks are different from regular archaeological sites 1:10:40.479 --> 1:10:43.880 because you know, shipwreck is a moment in time that 1:10:43.960 --> 1:10:48.519 all happened in in one instance, and so when we're 1:10:48.520 --> 1:10:51.680 looking at that kind of archaeological site, we see this 1:10:51.800 --> 1:10:54.479 snapshot that we don't see when we look at a 1:10:54.479 --> 1:10:57.960 place that was occupied over hundreds of years. So you know. 1:10:58.080 --> 1:11:01.920 So yeah, so that wasn't my focus, but it became, uh, 1:11:01.960 --> 1:11:04.960 sort of somewhere I wanted to go as I learn 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:09.320 more about And one of the things I find really interesting, 1:11:09.360 --> 1:11:13.280 the basic thrust of your book is that the way 1:11:13.280 --> 1:11:18.000 in which we think about civilizations falling or collapsing or 1:11:18.000 --> 1:11:20.599 how however you you know, the ways in which folks 1:11:20.600 --> 1:11:22.800 tend to discuss that when we're talking about the Maya 1:11:22.920 --> 1:11:27.600 or the Romans. Um is very different from what archaeologists 1:11:27.640 --> 1:11:30.559 who tend to study these cultures how they tend to 1:11:30.560 --> 1:11:34.000 perceive of of what you might more accurately call a 1:11:34.080 --> 1:11:37.439 decline or or you know, a decentralization or whatever. I 1:11:37.439 --> 1:11:39.400 think there's a number of terms that we could use. 1:11:39.479 --> 1:11:42.479 But these ideas that like you have these civilizations and 1:11:42.479 --> 1:11:46.000 then they suddenly fall apart um are not really based 1:11:46.040 --> 1:11:50.040 in rigorous historical analysis usually. UM. There's some cases as 1:11:50.080 --> 1:11:54.240 as you go into the book, UM, and I'm I'm 1:11:54.120 --> 1:11:57.120 I'm interested in that because you're kind of coming at 1:11:57.160 --> 1:12:00.960 from a very rigorous historical standpoint in this book, UM, 1:12:01.000 --> 1:12:02.679 a lot of the stuff that we talked about on 1:12:02.680 --> 1:12:05.200 on this show in a more contemporary sense. And I'm 1:12:05.240 --> 1:12:08.280 kind of wondering how the idea to write this sort 1:12:08.280 --> 1:12:11.080 of came together because you started it before the COVID 1:12:11.160 --> 1:12:15.040 nineteen pandemic. Obviously that had an impact on the book. 1:12:15.040 --> 1:12:20.400 It's it's it's all over there, yeah yeah, UM, well, 1:12:20.600 --> 1:12:25.880 I've I was. One of the things that I do 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:31.599 is teach the wilderness survival courses and UM, and I 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:33.920 don't do that as frequently as some people that that 1:12:34.040 --> 1:12:37.600 sort of dedicate themselves to that do but but but 1:12:37.720 --> 1:12:41.679 I do it fairly frequently. And um, it became obvious 1:12:41.680 --> 1:12:45.479 to me over time that people were taking these courses 1:12:45.560 --> 1:12:48.559 not just to learn how to deal with being lost 1:12:48.560 --> 1:12:51.479 out in the wilderness, which is sort of was my vision. 1:12:51.880 --> 1:12:54.479 What do you do if you unexpectedly have to spend 1:12:54.479 --> 1:12:58.120 a night out in the woods or or two or three. Um, 1:12:58.320 --> 1:13:00.439 they were really thinking about what about do when things 1:13:00.439 --> 1:13:02.479 fall apart? How do I take care of myself? How 1:13:02.520 --> 1:13:05.479 do I take care of my family using these skills 1:13:05.520 --> 1:13:08.280 that you could use in a situation where things had 1:13:08.320 --> 1:13:12.160 fallen apart? And that sort of oriented me towards the 1:13:13.120 --> 1:13:15.960 fact that you know, people were worrying about the future. 1:13:16.000 --> 1:13:17.559 I mean I could see it. I could see it 1:13:17.560 --> 1:13:21.280 in my students at university. I could see it you know, 1:13:21.479 --> 1:13:24.880 in the people's faces at the supermarket. You know, there 1:13:24.960 --> 1:13:30.479 was something going on there that was um uh, there 1:13:30.600 --> 1:13:32.600 was concerning people, and a lot of it had to 1:13:32.640 --> 1:13:36.040 do with climate change, and that I think was was 1:13:36.120 --> 1:13:40.720 the focus initially for me writing this um because what 1:13:40.800 --> 1:13:46.440 I saw was you know, sort of the prepper community 1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:50.360 and survivalist community looking at things that really seemed to 1:13:50.360 --> 1:13:54.400 be short term and didn't at all focus on what 1:13:54.439 --> 1:13:58.479 we really saw historically. So I think that my um 1:13:58.520 --> 1:14:02.240 my initial motive to motivation to write this was really 1:14:02.680 --> 1:14:07.000 just seeing this concern that was that was growing among 1:14:07.160 --> 1:14:09.320 people about what the future is going to look like. 1:14:09.360 --> 1:14:12.240 And then of course COVID hit and that that that 1:14:12.360 --> 1:14:16.280 really brought all this to the to the forefront. And 1:14:16.320 --> 1:14:18.679 are there any specific ways in your mind that you 1:14:18.840 --> 1:14:22.840 can you kind of think on how COVID altered what 1:14:22.880 --> 1:14:25.200 you were what you were writing, or how you conceived 1:14:25.200 --> 1:14:26.960 of what you were writing. Like once you you know, 1:14:27.000 --> 1:14:29.280 you you have this kind of vision that's inspired by 1:14:29.360 --> 1:14:31.720 the things that you're seeing and hearing, particularly in these 1:14:31.720 --> 1:14:34.960 wilderness survival courses, and then as you get started, we 1:14:35.040 --> 1:14:38.559 have this horrible, horrible plague hit and a number of 1:14:38.560 --> 1:14:40.760 of of things start to happen very quickly. How does 1:14:40.800 --> 1:14:44.160 that kind of alter the trajectory of what you're writing? Yeah, 1:14:44.200 --> 1:14:47.479 I guess the you know, the there were some just 1:14:47.520 --> 1:14:52.160 sort of practical logistical things obviously, right, Uh, some things 1:14:52.160 --> 1:14:55.680 that I intended to do or ways that I had 1:14:55.680 --> 1:14:58.960 hoped to interact with folks in the course of interviewing 1:14:59.000 --> 1:15:01.000 people for the book or writing it, you know, wasn't 1:15:01.040 --> 1:15:04.719 going to be possible. But in terms of thinking about 1:15:04.720 --> 1:15:08.960 how things happened, the big thing for me was, um, 1:15:09.120 --> 1:15:13.160 how it became politicized so quickly. You know, that was 1:15:15.280 --> 1:15:18.320 you know in the um you know you know, well, 1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:21.720 now you see all of the memes you know, uh 1:15:22.760 --> 1:15:25.719 talking about the zombie movies where half the population doesn't 1:15:25.720 --> 1:15:28.439 believe their zombies or something. You know, that was never 1:15:28.600 --> 1:15:33.120 really on the radar, at least not on my radar before. 1:15:33.280 --> 1:15:39.879 And so now um, um, you know it is because clearly, 1:15:40.680 --> 1:15:43.000 not only do these things happen and then you have 1:15:43.040 --> 1:15:45.600 a group of people that are dealing with it, you 1:15:45.680 --> 1:15:49.479 have obviously the dynamics within the group, which which of 1:15:49.520 --> 1:15:51.800 course we knew, but to see it play out in 1:15:51.840 --> 1:15:55.200 this way, in this sort of dramatic way, that really 1:15:55.200 --> 1:15:59.120 altered the course of history. I mean, the pandemic could 1:15:59.120 --> 1:16:03.839 have turned out, uh, you know differently, but it didn't. 1:16:04.280 --> 1:16:06.360 And part of the reason that didn't was because of 1:16:06.400 --> 1:16:10.519 the way folks reacted to it. And I'm wondering because 1:16:10.680 --> 1:16:12.840 a part a chunk of your career, in a big 1:16:12.920 --> 1:16:15.120 chunk of this book is kind of looking at in 1:16:15.200 --> 1:16:19.680 places like Honduras where these these civilizations entered decline, and 1:16:19.680 --> 1:16:21.720 in some cases it was very sharp, like within a 1:16:21.880 --> 1:16:24.960 fairly short period of time, ninety percent of the population 1:16:25.479 --> 1:16:30.759 leaves or you know, UH is deceased. UM. And you 1:16:30.760 --> 1:16:32.240 you see like the crumbling of a lot of these 1:16:32.240 --> 1:16:35.519 governmental institutions and whatnot that had had organized life for 1:16:35.560 --> 1:16:39.519 a while. You see the pretty significant migrations. UM. Is 1:16:39.520 --> 1:16:41.360 there any ways in which kind of the last two 1:16:41.479 --> 1:16:46.160 years as an archaeologist has changed or informed how you 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:49.439 were thinking about um, these places that you've been you've 1:16:49.479 --> 1:16:51.439 been studying, in these moments in history that you've been 1:16:51.479 --> 1:16:55.679 studying for so long. Yeah, in some ways it brings 1:16:55.720 --> 1:16:58.640 some of it into a little sharper focus. For instance, 1:16:58.800 --> 1:17:02.360 you know, one of the things it that archaeologists had 1:17:02.360 --> 1:17:05.480 long talked about was that during these declines or these collapses, 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:08.720 that it's uneven. It's not equal for everybody. It's not 1:17:09.680 --> 1:17:12.800 equal over space and time, and certainly depending on your 1:17:12.960 --> 1:17:17.600 position in society. UM, there's different ways in which it 1:17:17.880 --> 1:17:22.800 it plays out for you, UM. You know, and that's 1:17:22.840 --> 1:17:26.439 something that we see. We see it from UM. You know, 1:17:26.479 --> 1:17:32.559 access to vaccines to UM. Well, I mean, even things 1:17:32.640 --> 1:17:35.560 like you know, if we think about folks that are unvaccinated, 1:17:35.600 --> 1:17:37.960 Now there's a you know, a chunk of those people 1:17:38.040 --> 1:17:42.200 that are doing it for a sort of political reasons 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:48.320 or other ideological reason. But there's also a big, uh, 1:17:48.479 --> 1:17:51.640 a big group of those folks that are doing it 1:17:51.720 --> 1:17:56.840 because history shows that they should be wary of anything 1:17:57.680 --> 1:18:02.240 that UH society he tries to do to them. And so, 1:18:02.439 --> 1:18:05.200 you know, you have these these things playing out for 1:18:05.280 --> 1:18:09.240 different ways for um, you know, people from different regions 1:18:09.240 --> 1:18:12.360 of the country or political orientations or race or ethnicity 1:18:12.600 --> 1:18:16.280 or um, you know, a whole variety of things. And 1:18:16.320 --> 1:18:22.400 so seeing how uneven it was the pandemic UH makes 1:18:22.439 --> 1:18:26.439 me think that, you know, it certainly was that way then. UH. 1:18:26.560 --> 1:18:29.560 The other thing that we see when we look archaeologically 1:18:29.680 --> 1:18:33.040 is that it's these big structures or systems that collapse. 1:18:33.160 --> 1:18:37.439 That really is the collapse and the things that cause 1:18:37.560 --> 1:18:42.200 it initially, whether it's I don't know, deforestation or drought 1:18:42.520 --> 1:18:47.479 or warfare or even a natural disaster of some sort 1:18:47.800 --> 1:18:52.879 um that really it's the way people respond to those 1:18:53.080 --> 1:18:59.719 and the way these uh systems deal with those changes 1:19:00.400 --> 1:19:04.400 that really creates the problems that you see later on. 1:19:04.479 --> 1:19:06.519 And we can see that now. For instance, one of 1:19:06.560 --> 1:19:09.360 the things that we're talking a lot now about his 1:19:09.720 --> 1:19:15.200 supply chain issues, right, And this is a result of COVID, 1:19:16.200 --> 1:19:18.559 But it's not a direct result. I mean, it's not 1:19:18.680 --> 1:19:21.559 because the crews on the ships are at the ports 1:19:21.680 --> 1:19:28.679 or truck drivers have uh are sick. It's because of 1:19:28.720 --> 1:19:32.400 the ways in which all of this disrupted things, and 1:19:33.360 --> 1:19:39.640 especially when we get these really efficient but inflexible systems, 1:19:39.680 --> 1:19:42.920 like a lot of our shipping system was um, these 1:19:42.960 --> 1:19:48.160 disruptions result in really big changes. So you know, you 1:19:48.240 --> 1:19:51.080 have these huge ships that can only dock a few ports. 1:19:51.840 --> 1:19:56.519 Once that gets backed up, you can't really shift and adjust. 1:19:57.240 --> 1:20:00.920 And so that's I think for me, just a lot 1:20:00.960 --> 1:20:03.320 of it is seeing it play out where we see 1:20:04.080 --> 1:20:07.040 the fact that we have something that sets it all off, 1:20:07.080 --> 1:20:12.360 but then we have the response of the system or 1:20:12.400 --> 1:20:17.200 the structure that really creates the day to day impact. 1:20:18.400 --> 1:20:20.720 I suspect a big part of kind of why we 1:20:20.880 --> 1:20:24.920 conceive popularly of of quote unquote collapses in the past 1:20:25.080 --> 1:20:28.120 is based on, as you talk about extensively in your book, 1:20:28.160 --> 1:20:29.519 the way in which we look at it kind of 1:20:29.520 --> 1:20:32.320 in fiction, and in fiction it's nearly always like the 1:20:32.360 --> 1:20:34.560 societal equivalent of a bullet in the head. Right you 1:20:34.720 --> 1:20:36.519 the zombie plague is out, and then a couple of 1:20:36.600 --> 1:20:40.280 days everything's fallen apart. And the point that you make 1:20:40.280 --> 1:20:43.120 in this is that it's probably I mean, this isn't 1:20:43.120 --> 1:20:44.920 exactly the phrase, but it's probably better to look at 1:20:44.920 --> 1:20:47.320 it kind of like it's like a tumor or something 1:20:47.360 --> 1:20:50.840 where the things are set in motion that are going 1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:55.920 to lead to things falling apart much much, um, at 1:20:55.920 --> 1:20:57.840 a point before a lot of people probably would have 1:20:57.880 --> 1:21:00.160 noticed it. You know, the problem can be too are 1:21:00.240 --> 1:21:06.320 gone um before it's really obvious. Um. Yeah, yeah, I 1:21:06.360 --> 1:21:08.599 think that's that's a good point. And that's the that's 1:21:08.680 --> 1:21:14.040 really something that you know, even with COVID, it shows that, 1:21:14.160 --> 1:21:19.160 right Um. You know, the problems are not only the 1:21:19.200 --> 1:21:23.120 existence or the appearance of this virus, but first of all, 1:21:23.200 --> 1:21:27.320 how did it appear? And that has to do with um, 1:21:27.360 --> 1:21:31.320 you know, decreasing habitat for wild animals and the proximity 1:21:31.360 --> 1:21:36.000 of human populations to animals. And then we have increased 1:21:36.360 --> 1:21:40.400 sort of uh communication and travel, which you know is 1:21:40.439 --> 1:21:43.120 not a bad thing obviously, but it is going to 1:21:43.320 --> 1:21:46.960 change the way in which these things spread. But then 1:21:47.040 --> 1:21:49.960 we have the way that we divide ourselves up into 1:21:50.640 --> 1:21:54.559 nation states, and the way in which we have you know, 1:21:54.640 --> 1:21:59.160 economic systems that are working in certain ways. So you know, 1:21:59.240 --> 1:22:02.439 the vaccine get here but not there, and and and 1:22:02.479 --> 1:22:07.720 so forth. Um. But yeah, that's a you know that 1:22:08.360 --> 1:22:09.840 I think is at the heart of it. You have 1:22:09.960 --> 1:22:12.760 these things that have been set in place. You have 1:22:12.840 --> 1:22:15.920 these parameters in which you're going to have to react, 1:22:16.000 --> 1:22:19.880 and they really set um the stage for what's going 1:22:19.920 --> 1:22:22.440 to happen. You know, you have it's like looking backwards 1:22:22.479 --> 1:22:24.880 four or five moves in chest to see how did 1:22:24.920 --> 1:22:27.800 we get in this situation. It's not just because of 1:22:27.880 --> 1:22:32.440 that last move, it's because of the last ten. Yeah. 1:22:32.960 --> 1:22:35.400 And one of the things that you bring up that 1:22:35.479 --> 1:22:37.599 I like is that if you're looking for kind of 1:22:38.000 --> 1:22:41.439 a historical example of a collapse that that most mirrors 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:43.040 the way we tend to look at it in fiction, 1:22:43.120 --> 1:22:46.920 it would probably be what happened to the indigenous population 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:52.280 of particularly like North America um after the arrival of colonizers, 1:22:52.360 --> 1:22:55.160 which was by a lot of accounts like ninety of 1:22:55.200 --> 1:22:57.920 the population dead within a fairly short span of time, 1:22:57.960 --> 1:23:03.800 primarily from disease. This this rely rapid and cataclysmic um 1:23:03.880 --> 1:23:06.559 um shock. But also at the same time, as much 1:23:06.560 --> 1:23:09.640 as it does seem to mirror some of our you know, 1:23:09.720 --> 1:23:12.599 kind of fictional depictions of of viral outbreaks or other 1:23:12.680 --> 1:23:16.479 sort of of of societal calamities, um, the ways in 1:23:16.520 --> 1:23:21.120 which people survived don't really in any meaningful way mirror 1:23:21.160 --> 1:23:24.120 the are are kind of popular fictional depiction of like 1:23:24.320 --> 1:23:26.800 who makes it out of that sort of a situation, 1:23:26.840 --> 1:23:30.320 you know, the the strapping military veteran with a rifle 1:23:30.400 --> 1:23:33.280 and a stockpile of food or whatever. You know. Yeah, yeah, 1:23:33.320 --> 1:23:39.439 that that. You know, I would say that certainly having 1:23:39.479 --> 1:23:43.200 these skills to keep yourself alive is important, and it 1:23:43.360 --> 1:23:44.960 is true that if you don't make it through the 1:23:45.000 --> 1:23:47.080 first thirty days, you're not gonna make it through the 1:23:47.120 --> 1:23:52.720 next thirty years. But um yeah, the way people survive 1:23:52.960 --> 1:23:57.040 outside of a few days, perhaps when they're dealing with 1:23:57.080 --> 1:23:59.920 some of these what we would think of a serve 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:03.479 Bible situations, this is a community. I mean, we see 1:24:03.520 --> 1:24:06.600 that with uh, you know, when we look at the 1:24:06.920 --> 1:24:11.880 Native American history in North America. You know, even as 1:24:12.040 --> 1:24:18.320 populations and entire groups were being decimated by these diseases, 1:24:18.360 --> 1:24:23.920 sometimes a village in a single winner from a wave 1:24:24.120 --> 1:24:28.519 or waves of disease. Even in the in the face 1:24:28.560 --> 1:24:36.719 of that, they reconstituted themselves as communities, sometimes um, multi 1:24:36.760 --> 1:24:39.479 ethnic or multicultural communities. I mean, there was a whole 1:24:39.600 --> 1:24:43.639 variety of ways in which people regrouped. And I think 1:24:43.680 --> 1:24:46.360 that that, you know, that was the message and you know, 1:24:46.439 --> 1:24:50.400 part of the uh, this image of you know, grabbing 1:24:50.439 --> 1:24:56.200 your bugout bag and heading out to the hills is um, 1:24:56.200 --> 1:25:00.120 it just doesn't work, you know. And and the is 1:25:00.240 --> 1:25:05.720 the stockpiling you know as well. Um, And so yeah, 1:25:05.760 --> 1:25:10.280 when we look archaeologically, you know, we always see communitions. Yeah, 1:25:10.280 --> 1:25:12.519 and that's something we really try to encourage people do 1:25:12.600 --> 1:25:16.360 on this show, where obviously some amount of disaster preparation 1:25:16.479 --> 1:25:18.960 is is not just helpful, but is I think kind 1:25:18.960 --> 1:25:22.040 of morally necessary if it's at all financially feasible for you, 1:25:22.040 --> 1:25:25.360 you know it is you are it is absolutely the 1:25:25.439 --> 1:25:27.040 right thing to do to try to have two three 1:25:27.040 --> 1:25:31.320 weeks of of relatively storable food, some water, um, you know, 1:25:31.400 --> 1:25:35.160 some other emergency supplies. But kind of beyond that, as 1:25:35.200 --> 1:25:37.839 you said that first, like thirty days if you actually 1:25:37.880 --> 1:25:40.160 want not just to live, but to have you know, 1:25:40.280 --> 1:25:43.360 life have any kind of meaning, Um, you have to 1:25:43.360 --> 1:25:48.040 be thinking in a community oriented situation. Yeah, I mean, 1:25:48.080 --> 1:25:50.880 because ultimately, you know, what's the difference between two weeks 1:25:50.960 --> 1:25:54.280 or two months worth of food? Right, you know it's 1:25:54.400 --> 1:25:58.960 gonna be gone and you know you have to come back. 1:25:59.040 --> 1:26:02.280 You know. One of the things in researching for this 1:26:03.160 --> 1:26:05.000 for this book, one of the things I looked at 1:26:05.120 --> 1:26:10.320 was the history of how we made a living, uh 1:26:10.400 --> 1:26:13.320 and the history of agriculture. And one of the things 1:26:13.360 --> 1:26:16.479 that you know that that I found was that the 1:26:16.600 --> 1:26:21.720 last time that humans lived where a significant portion of 1:26:21.720 --> 1:26:26.160 the population was hunters and gatherers that is, not farmers, 1:26:27.479 --> 1:26:31.439 there was like one of the current population, you know, 1:26:31.760 --> 1:26:35.479 less than five million people in the world. So even 1:26:36.000 --> 1:26:44.760 a catastrophic disaster that you know, reduced us to ofcent 1:26:44.840 --> 1:26:47.800 of current population, we're still going to have more people 1:26:47.800 --> 1:26:51.640 in the world than ever lived without agriculture. And so 1:26:51.720 --> 1:26:57.760 we're gonna have to uh recreate some of these systems. 1:26:57.920 --> 1:27:00.680 And you know, agriculture buying just going to be a 1:27:00.720 --> 1:27:04.400 community based, yeah system it's uh, I mean, you can 1:27:04.439 --> 1:27:07.760 garden on your own, but but the way that it 1:27:07.800 --> 1:27:11.519 needs to work is is going to be a collective. Yeah, 1:27:11.520 --> 1:27:13.960 and I think, um, yeah, this is we talk a 1:27:13.960 --> 1:27:16.479 lot about. I actually live with a couple of wilderness 1:27:16.479 --> 1:27:19.120 survival instructors and we have about an acre of land 1:27:19.120 --> 1:27:21.760 and we do a decent amount of of of you 1:27:21.800 --> 1:27:25.559 know gardening, you know, animal husbandry and that sort of thing, 1:27:25.600 --> 1:27:27.840 and it it is. Um I've I've spent a lot 1:27:27.840 --> 1:27:29.719 of my life on farm, so I've kind of always 1:27:29.760 --> 1:27:31.840 had an appreciation for how much work it is. And 1:27:32.120 --> 1:27:34.160 one of the things we try to talk about on 1:27:34.160 --> 1:27:37.519 this show regularly is the value of even just having 1:27:37.520 --> 1:27:41.240 a garden of things like guerrilla gardening. Not because I'm 1:27:41.280 --> 1:27:42.559 not one of those people who thinks that, like, oh, 1:27:42.560 --> 1:27:45.799 we need to replace industrial agriculture with like individuals tending 1:27:45.840 --> 1:27:48.680 small gardens. That's not going to work, but because the 1:27:48.760 --> 1:27:52.040 more you kind of interface directly with the concept of 1:27:52.080 --> 1:27:54.880 growing food and with working with other people in order 1:27:54.920 --> 1:27:57.240 to do that, the more prepared you are for any 1:27:57.320 --> 1:27:59.320 number of things that could go wrong, Like even if 1:27:59.360 --> 1:28:01.519 those things don't involve the crunching the food supply lines, 1:28:01.560 --> 1:28:03.519 the connections you make with people doing that sort of 1:28:03.560 --> 1:28:06.639 work will be more valuable than an extra two months 1:28:06.640 --> 1:28:09.040 of stockpiles you know, when you're in your food buckets 1:28:09.120 --> 1:28:12.800 or whatever, you're Alex Jones dried food buckets. Yeah, well, 1:28:12.880 --> 1:28:15.240 that's that's absolutely right. And you know, one of the 1:28:15.280 --> 1:28:18.720 things that occurred to me looking into the past at 1:28:18.840 --> 1:28:22.320 some of these uh, you know, collapses or declines that 1:28:22.400 --> 1:28:26.719 had happened in the past, was that a huge percent 1:28:26.760 --> 1:28:34.200 of the population um um was engaged directly in agriculture, 1:28:35.000 --> 1:28:38.080 and you know here in the well in the industrialized 1:28:38.120 --> 1:28:40.800 world is typically less than five percent less than that 1:28:40.880 --> 1:28:44.520 even in the United States. Most people like me don't 1:28:44.640 --> 1:28:48.240 uh don't engage in it. And you know, I know 1:28:48.600 --> 1:28:52.120 something about gardening, perhaps like everybody else, but I'm not 1:28:52.160 --> 1:28:56.200 a farmer. I don't really have that collected wisdom. And 1:28:56.240 --> 1:29:01.839 if I had to do that, um, you know, probably 1:29:01.880 --> 1:29:04.120 it's like a lot of other things. When everything is easy, 1:29:04.200 --> 1:29:07.120 it's not so bad. When you know when it goes bad, 1:29:07.280 --> 1:29:11.000 it really helps to know what you're doing. Um. And 1:29:11.120 --> 1:29:15.280 of course everything goes bad sooner or later, and so um. 1:29:15.320 --> 1:29:20.240 You know, that's that kind of things very important, you know. 1:29:20.280 --> 1:29:26.519 And I think also there could certainly local systems and 1:29:27.600 --> 1:29:32.000 some flexible scale would be really important, you know. So 1:29:32.160 --> 1:29:36.160 I'm also like you a proponent of of this sort 1:29:36.200 --> 1:29:38.000 of thing. You know, if we can get everybody to 1:29:38.040 --> 1:29:40.960 participate in ways that we aren't now, that will give 1:29:41.000 --> 1:29:43.439 us some flexibility. What if what if we do have 1:29:43.560 --> 1:29:46.439 supply chain problems, Well, we have a number of people 1:29:46.439 --> 1:29:49.400 in the community that are already doing some of this 1:29:49.479 --> 1:29:53.800 stuff that could maybe be expanded or get us through 1:29:53.880 --> 1:29:57.479 this period. So yeah, yeah, I mean, even if you're 1:29:57.520 --> 1:29:59.840 not like dealing with everyone's caloric needs, it could be 1:29:59.840 --> 1:30:02.439 as simple as because of where you're located. You know, 1:30:02.640 --> 1:30:05.280 when when the oranges and other kind of fruits aren't 1:30:05.320 --> 1:30:07.040 able to come in from a supply line thing, there's 1:30:07.160 --> 1:30:09.439 a shortage of vitamin C and then knowing how to 1:30:09.920 --> 1:30:12.120 make teata pine needles or whatever, or what kind of 1:30:12.120 --> 1:30:14.400 plants have a lot of vitamin C. You know, even 1:30:14.400 --> 1:30:18.519 though you're not you're not focused on meeting everyone's you know, 1:30:18.800 --> 1:30:21.400 entire caloric needs through small scale farming, but you can 1:30:21.479 --> 1:30:24.000 deal with the a nutrient deficiency or something because you 1:30:24.080 --> 1:30:27.439 understand your environment a little bit better. Yeah, and you know, 1:30:27.560 --> 1:30:30.479 probably quality of life isxues to I mean, you know, 1:30:30.600 --> 1:30:35.040 for uh, you know, kids and u you know, there's 1:30:35.200 --> 1:30:38.640 there's lots of lots of ways you can survive that 1:30:38.680 --> 1:30:42.559 are pretty miserable, So you want to you want to 1:30:42.560 --> 1:30:47.280 try to uh direct it towards those that are desirable. 1:30:47.960 --> 1:30:50.360 And I think part of that is having this flexibility, 1:30:50.400 --> 1:30:54.160 having this knowledge, having a lot of people involved in things. 1:30:54.160 --> 1:30:55.759 And you know, one of the things I talked about 1:30:55.760 --> 1:30:59.840 in my book or ideas of you know, diversity and inclusion, 1:31:00.000 --> 1:31:04.719 which we talk about in certain ways now and often 1:31:04.800 --> 1:31:08.400 I think unfortunately it's talked about, is if it's done 1:31:09.000 --> 1:31:13.280 to benefit the people that are marginalized and left out 1:31:14.080 --> 1:31:18.280 only and while it is partly that it benefits everybody, 1:31:18.320 --> 1:31:21.280 of course, I mean, anyone in a business knows, anybody 1:31:21.280 --> 1:31:27.320 in the university knows the benefits of of diversity. In 1:31:27.360 --> 1:31:31.520 the same way anybody that's trying to do something understands 1:31:31.560 --> 1:31:35.240 the benefit of a diverse range of experiences. You know. 1:31:35.280 --> 1:31:38.400 That's why we make these multidisciplinary teams that go out 1:31:38.439 --> 1:31:41.320 and do things. Uh, you know, it's so that you 1:31:41.479 --> 1:31:46.559 have this this wide variety that can help you keep going. Yeah. 1:31:46.960 --> 1:31:49.600 And one of the things that I really found fascinating 1:31:49.600 --> 1:31:51.280 in your book and that that kind of made me 1:31:51.320 --> 1:31:54.400 feel a little bit um bad, as I you know, 1:31:54.439 --> 1:31:57.880 I've I've spent a lot of time thinking about the 1:31:58.200 --> 1:32:00.760 what happened, what was done to what also just kind 1:32:00.800 --> 1:32:03.439 of happened as a result of the way diseases spread 1:32:03.479 --> 1:32:06.960 when when colonizers reached North America. I had never really 1:32:06.960 --> 1:32:11.360 devoted that much thought to the actual actions that in 1:32:11.439 --> 1:32:15.200 different indigenous groups took consciously to prevent to protect themselves 1:32:15.280 --> 1:32:17.800 from the spread of diseases. You mentioned the Cherokee in particular, 1:32:18.360 --> 1:32:20.479 UM in your book. Could you talk a little bit 1:32:20.520 --> 1:32:22.960 more about that, because that's something as soon as I 1:32:23.000 --> 1:32:24.519 read it, I marked that page because I'm like, I 1:32:24.520 --> 1:32:26.679 need to look up what the studies he is referencing, 1:32:26.720 --> 1:32:31.200 because I I don't know anything about this. Yeah, that, UM, 1:32:31.240 --> 1:32:33.639 you know, a lot of that stems from the research 1:32:33.680 --> 1:32:38.040 of of some other archaeologists and they, you know what, 1:32:40.360 --> 1:32:42.680 You're exactly right. We don't think about that. We're not 1:32:42.720 --> 1:32:45.160 taught about it that way. You know, we sort of 1:32:45.200 --> 1:32:52.040 have this this contradictory and sort of u uh, doubly 1:32:52.120 --> 1:32:55.840 problematic way of talking about this. First, for a long time, 1:32:56.120 --> 1:33:01.920 we denied sort of the how traumatic and how much 1:33:01.920 --> 1:33:07.960 of a genocide it was when Europeans arrived UM. And 1:33:08.000 --> 1:33:12.040 then after denying that, we sort of say, well, Native 1:33:12.040 --> 1:33:15.439 Americans are gone and no longer relevant, so we can 1:33:16.400 --> 1:33:20.519 cease to talk about them. Of course that's not true. 1:33:20.600 --> 1:33:22.400 And one of the things that we see when we 1:33:22.479 --> 1:33:27.000 look more in detail at the histories, or we listen 1:33:27.080 --> 1:33:29.400 to the oral histories, or we look at the archaeology, 1:33:29.520 --> 1:33:32.960 is that there are a number of things that that 1:33:32.960 --> 1:33:40.640 that people did and do to um uh uh to 1:33:40.760 --> 1:33:42.840 create the outcomes that they want. And that was no 1:33:42.960 --> 1:33:45.880 different for the Native American groups, you know, I mean, 1:33:45.920 --> 1:33:49.960 they had ways of dealing with disease, and some of 1:33:50.000 --> 1:33:55.240 them will be will be able to understand it via 1:33:55.439 --> 1:34:02.360 our sort of our system right isolating people cleanliness of 1:34:02.840 --> 1:34:08.040 minimizing contact expect especially with sort of problematic groups like 1:34:08.120 --> 1:34:12.160 the colonizer's um you know. But in other ways, there 1:34:12.160 --> 1:34:17.080 are things that are gonna be unfamiliar to us and 1:34:17.120 --> 1:34:21.040 we're not gonna see the effectiveness or of the value 1:34:21.080 --> 1:34:23.519 in it. But one of the things that that all 1:34:23.560 --> 1:34:27.640 of these things did that these groups were doing was 1:34:27.960 --> 1:34:35.480 created or maintained um group identity and cohesion and allowed 1:34:35.760 --> 1:34:43.040 the perseverance of of community. And so there are um 1:34:43.080 --> 1:34:45.080 you know, it's it's easy to think about people as 1:34:45.080 --> 1:34:50.120 sort of passive victims of something, especially when it serves 1:34:50.160 --> 1:34:52.360 your purpose to to think about it in these ways, 1:34:52.960 --> 1:34:56.280 and we just see that it's it's not the case. Yeah, 1:34:56.360 --> 1:34:58.519 there was a remarkable moment in the book, and I 1:34:58.560 --> 1:35:01.080 think it was from when you were in Honduras where 1:35:01.120 --> 1:35:04.040 you you talk about you're finding pottery shirts and they 1:35:04.080 --> 1:35:06.640 have these specific kind of markings on them from I 1:35:06.640 --> 1:35:08.439 don't like a thousand years ago or so, and you 1:35:08.479 --> 1:35:11.400 also know a local woman who's a potter and she's 1:35:11.400 --> 1:35:14.400 putting the same markings on and you ask her why 1:35:14.439 --> 1:35:17.200 and her answer is like, well, because the pottery shirts 1:35:17.200 --> 1:35:19.760 that we find from our ancestors have those on them. 1:35:19.800 --> 1:35:23.320 And my initial thought was like, oh, what what a 1:35:23.320 --> 1:35:26.120 shame that she doesn't know what those originally meant. But 1:35:26.160 --> 1:35:28.400 then I thought like, well, but is that any different 1:35:28.439 --> 1:35:30.439 from like all of the different things that that I 1:35:30.520 --> 1:35:32.920 do because their traditions, because like there are things that 1:35:32.960 --> 1:35:36.000 like people a thousand years ago in in in my 1:35:36.120 --> 1:35:38.760 line did like, no, it's not like it's it's just 1:35:38.800 --> 1:35:41.000 what people do and it is a continuation, and it's 1:35:41.040 --> 1:35:45.080 a very there's um that's a that's that's survival. You 1:35:45.120 --> 1:35:49.000 know that's that's conscious survival. Yeah, you know, and in 1:35:49.040 --> 1:35:53.920 that case, of course, whatever it meant initially, it now 1:35:54.040 --> 1:36:00.200 means that to her, right, So there's the meaning, you know. Um, 1:36:00.840 --> 1:36:06.320 And so it's it's interesting, you know, one of the things, 1:36:06.760 --> 1:36:09.800 you know, I'm from and I live in Kentucky, and 1:36:11.320 --> 1:36:15.600 one of the things, especially when people come to say Appalachians, 1:36:15.600 --> 1:36:21.600 they're looking for sort of authentic Appalachian Kentucky, you know, um, 1:36:21.640 --> 1:36:24.960 and they already have an idea what that is. And 1:36:25.000 --> 1:36:27.840 if you don't see it, because that's not really what 1:36:27.880 --> 1:36:31.960 people do, then the response is never, oh my idea 1:36:32.040 --> 1:36:35.519 is about what is authentic? Might be erroneous. It's I 1:36:35.520 --> 1:36:39.160 wonder why I didn't see authentic Appalachians. You know. It's like, 1:36:39.200 --> 1:36:45.000 well you did. But you know, there's gonna be more 1:36:45.200 --> 1:36:49.439 hip hop and punk groups than there are bluegrass groups 1:36:49.479 --> 1:36:54.719 because you know, these are twenty year old kids. That's 1:36:54.880 --> 1:36:57.479 you know, they're doing this as much as this other stuff, 1:36:57.520 --> 1:37:01.840 and uh, you know, more problem and so that that 1:37:02.000 --> 1:37:06.519 is something hum that that I think of often as 1:37:06.560 --> 1:37:08.960 an archaeologist. You know, my focus is in the past. 1:37:09.439 --> 1:37:11.600 But if I'm going to understand things, of course you 1:37:11.720 --> 1:37:14.280 also have to understand how are people thinking about in 1:37:14.320 --> 1:37:16.120 the present and how am I thinking about it in 1:37:16.120 --> 1:37:20.439 the present, because you know, everything, all the stories I 1:37:20.479 --> 1:37:23.240 tell about the past are coming out of or coming 1:37:23.240 --> 1:37:25.960 out of my experience in the present too, and it's 1:37:26.000 --> 1:37:29.040 hard to uh, it's hard to separate those and that 1:37:29.160 --> 1:37:32.320 really the best we can do is try to, um, 1:37:33.400 --> 1:37:36.040 you know, reflect on that and see how is it 1:37:36.080 --> 1:37:38.760 that I might be limiting my understanding because of my 1:37:38.920 --> 1:37:42.519 particular experience. And one of the things I really like 1:37:42.640 --> 1:37:44.960 about your book that I also found fascinating, So it's 1:37:45.120 --> 1:37:47.280 I you know, I I for a while did um 1:37:47.479 --> 1:37:51.040 conflict journalism. And before when when that was just an 1:37:51.080 --> 1:37:53.080 ambition of mine, before I started to do it, I 1:37:53.080 --> 1:37:55.120 would see the articles that were being written by all 1:37:55.120 --> 1:37:57.160 these war correspondents, and I would just be in awe 1:37:57.160 --> 1:37:59.400 of like how did they get that story? How did 1:37:59.400 --> 1:38:01.599 they get that says? How did they must have put 1:38:01.640 --> 1:38:03.439 so much work in? And then when I actually got there, 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:06.280 I realized, like, oh no, they met they made a 1:38:06.320 --> 1:38:08.080 contact with the local who was good at it, and 1:38:08.120 --> 1:38:10.600 that person showed them around and made all these connections, 1:38:10.600 --> 1:38:12.800 and like, actually, none of this work happens without these 1:38:12.840 --> 1:38:17.240 local fixers, and you make the point that in archaeology 1:38:17.400 --> 1:38:21.480 you're not generally discovering things like even when you're finding shipwrecks, 1:38:21.479 --> 1:38:23.880 it's because these sailors who lived nearby were like, well, yeah, 1:38:23.960 --> 1:38:26.880 a bunch of shipwrecks over there, Like this is where 1:38:26.880 --> 1:38:29.280 you're gonna go find them. You know, It's always the 1:38:29.320 --> 1:38:33.519 way it is, you know, there um um. In the 1:38:33.760 --> 1:38:36.160 example you're talking about, I was part of this project 1:38:36.160 --> 1:38:39.000 in Forney in Greece, which you know, made the news 1:38:39.040 --> 1:38:42.479 because we found so many shipwrecks there something ultimately like 1:38:42.520 --> 1:38:47.519 fifty shipwrecks around this island, um and almost all of 1:38:47.560 --> 1:38:51.280 them were shown to us by local folks, uh that 1:38:51.640 --> 1:38:55.920 sponge divers or people that were fishers, you know, people 1:38:55.920 --> 1:38:58.240 that were out on the water all the time. And 1:38:58.280 --> 1:39:00.519 the few that we found by ourselves was I'm sure 1:39:00.560 --> 1:39:02.760 people knew about him, We just stumbled on him before 1:39:02.800 --> 1:39:05.800 somebody had a chance to show us. It's the same 1:39:05.840 --> 1:39:08.799 way in in the Honduras would we would be walking 1:39:08.840 --> 1:39:12.599 through the rainforest and you know, maybe we've been walking 1:39:12.640 --> 1:39:15.920 for a week, so we're way out in the middle 1:39:15.960 --> 1:39:19.960 of this place. People were constantly telling me the guys 1:39:20.000 --> 1:39:21.920 that I was with, would say, Okay, if we go 1:39:22.040 --> 1:39:24.760 up this creek, you know, for about six hours, and 1:39:24.800 --> 1:39:26.800 we go over here, here's what we'd find. Here's what 1:39:26.840 --> 1:39:28.800 we'd find over here. Here's what we find over here. 1:39:29.439 --> 1:39:34.160 They knew where everything was. Um. And that's you know, 1:39:34.200 --> 1:39:38.000 one of the things that you uh uh uh, that 1:39:38.000 --> 1:39:40.679 that you learned is you know how reliant you are 1:39:40.760 --> 1:39:45.439 on people that live in a place. I mean, they 1:39:45.520 --> 1:39:49.000 just know it. Yeah, there's no Um, when you get 1:39:49.080 --> 1:39:50.840 right down to it, is as obsessed as we are 1:39:50.960 --> 1:39:53.080 kind of in the Western Cannon with the idea of 1:39:53.120 --> 1:39:57.240 lost cities. Um, that's not really a thing that tends 1:39:57.280 --> 1:40:02.160 to happen. Um. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not. And 1:40:02.160 --> 1:40:04.679 and in fact, most of the archaeological sites that people 1:40:04.720 --> 1:40:07.920 didn't know about it was just because they were so 1:40:08.000 --> 1:40:12.120 small and ephemeral that no one really paid attention anything. Yeah, 1:40:12.120 --> 1:40:18.400 there's no lost city. They're they're always known for somebody. Well, Chris, 1:40:18.439 --> 1:40:20.400 I think that's that's most of what I wanted to 1:40:20.439 --> 1:40:23.519 get into in this conversation. I'm wondering before we kind 1:40:23.520 --> 1:40:26.240 of close out, because you are both the author of 1:40:26.280 --> 1:40:28.280 this book, The Next Apocalypse, which is I think a 1:40:28.280 --> 1:40:31.880 fascinating way of looking at the idea of things falling 1:40:31.880 --> 1:40:34.880 apart and a wilderness survival instructor. If you're going to 1:40:35.000 --> 1:40:39.320 suggest people, you know, a practical kit bag to prepare 1:40:39.400 --> 1:40:42.840 for short and kind of long term problems, what are 1:40:42.880 --> 1:40:46.000 you what are you putting in your bag? Well, you know, 1:40:46.080 --> 1:40:49.439 there's the two main things, uh, that you're always gonna 1:40:49.479 --> 1:40:53.600 want is is a knife because that allows you to 1:40:53.640 --> 1:40:55.920 make a lot of other things. And a way to 1:40:56.000 --> 1:40:59.320 start fire, you know, and we've all seen in the 1:40:59.320 --> 1:41:03.799 movies sticks together and you know, friction methods and that works, 1:41:04.600 --> 1:41:07.480 and you can do that, but it is incredibly difficult 1:41:07.479 --> 1:41:10.080 to do in the butt, you know, and for most 1:41:10.120 --> 1:41:13.799 of us that don't do it all the time, Uh, 1:41:13.840 --> 1:41:15.559 you're just not gonna be able to do it when 1:41:15.560 --> 1:41:18.240 it's forty degrees in raining and you really need a fire. 1:41:18.880 --> 1:41:20.599 You know, you'll be able to do it when it's 1:41:20.640 --> 1:41:24.759 a hundred degrees and dry, you know, uh, because everything 1:41:24.800 --> 1:41:28.160 is about to catch on fire anyway. But uh, you 1:41:28.200 --> 1:41:32.800 know so, um and what would what would that look like? Well, uh, 1:41:32.960 --> 1:41:35.320 you need something that will catch on fire pretty quickly. 1:41:35.360 --> 1:41:38.479 And the thing I always takes cotton balls, you know, 1:41:38.520 --> 1:41:41.840 if you take cotton balls and a disposable lighter or 1:41:41.960 --> 1:41:46.040 one of those uh fire starter sticks, it will make sparks. 1:41:46.840 --> 1:41:51.120 Um that those cotton balls will catch fire instantly. And 1:41:51.160 --> 1:41:53.519 if you take one and you coat half of it 1:41:53.560 --> 1:41:56.200 with petroleum jelly, then not only will catch fire, it 1:41:56.240 --> 1:41:59.720 will burn you know, for you know, a minute or so, 1:42:00.240 --> 1:42:03.360 long enough to catch other stuff on fire. So you know, 1:42:03.439 --> 1:42:06.679 making fire and having some sort of cutting tool are 1:42:06.760 --> 1:42:14.280 the very basic things. But um, you know, the beyond that, 1:42:14.479 --> 1:42:18.080 I would say, uh, you know, clothing or some sort 1:42:18.080 --> 1:42:23.000 of shelter is is the other thing. You know, Exposure 1:42:23.040 --> 1:42:26.840 to elements will kill you quicker than anything, and so 1:42:27.479 --> 1:42:31.160 having some way to uh to protect yourself and that's 1:42:31.240 --> 1:42:33.360 usually gonna be you know, first line of defense is 1:42:33.360 --> 1:42:36.040 going to be your clothes. And one of the things 1:42:36.080 --> 1:42:39.719 that that you'll know anybody that that deals with sort 1:42:39.760 --> 1:42:44.559 of survival situations is that most people that really get 1:42:44.600 --> 1:42:47.840 in trouble with things like hypothermia, you know, it's not 1:42:47.920 --> 1:42:51.320 when it's thirty degrees below and they're out doing something. 1:42:51.400 --> 1:42:54.400 It's when it's fifty degrees and sunny and they're out 1:42:54.400 --> 1:42:57.519 in a T shirt during the day and then at 1:42:57.600 --> 1:43:03.599 night it drops to thirty degrees and you know they're 1:43:03.600 --> 1:43:07.800 stuck out somewhere with without proper clothing. That's that is 1:43:07.840 --> 1:43:11.519 when things get really dangerous. So you know, I would say, 1:43:11.880 --> 1:43:13.599 you know, if you can have some way to start fire, 1:43:13.960 --> 1:43:18.519 some sort of knife, and appropriate clothes for spending the 1:43:18.640 --> 1:43:22.240 night out, you know, then then uh, and you're probably 1:43:22.280 --> 1:43:27.240 in pretty good shape for most situations. Well, Chris, thank 1:43:27.240 --> 1:43:30.520 you so much for talking with with us today. Chris Begley, 1:43:30.680 --> 1:43:34.519 underwater archaeologist, author of the Next Apocalypse, The Art of 1:43:34.600 --> 1:43:38.040 Science and Survival. Chris, is there anything you'd like else 1:43:38.080 --> 1:43:39.840 you'd like to say or kind of get into before 1:43:39.880 --> 1:43:43.439 we close out for the day. No, just thank you 1:43:43.560 --> 1:43:47.519 very much for for reading the book and for reaching 1:43:47.560 --> 1:43:49.800 out to talk with me, because I think that, you know, 1:43:51.040 --> 1:43:55.439 especially now as we go into sort of an uncertain future. 1:43:55.439 --> 1:43:58.840 I mean, future is always uncertain, I suppose, but um 1:43:59.240 --> 1:44:02.840 as you know, we're really recognizing some of these challenges. 1:44:03.400 --> 1:44:06.280 You know, I really am hoping that this sort of 1:44:06.680 --> 1:44:12.639 um uh, community based idea becomes the way we think 1:44:12.680 --> 1:44:15.519 about things. Uh. You know, it doesn't mean it's easy 1:44:15.720 --> 1:44:18.120 or that we're gonna like it. It doesn't mean that 1:44:18.120 --> 1:44:20.160 that's what I want. I mean, tell you the truth, 1:44:20.200 --> 1:44:22.639 I would love it if it was just me out 1:44:22.720 --> 1:44:26.400 in the woods with my family. You know, I can 1:44:26.479 --> 1:44:29.519 do that. It's much harder to be part of a 1:44:29.600 --> 1:44:32.000 community and make things work for a big group of people. 1:44:32.000 --> 1:44:35.080 But that's just the way it's going to be. Yeah, 1:44:35.160 --> 1:44:37.559 And that's that's ultimately the way in which you have 1:44:37.640 --> 1:44:42.639 a lot more real security because I think, um uh, 1:44:42.720 --> 1:44:46.840 I think people I don't know. The world seems so 1:44:46.880 --> 1:44:49.840 complex and messy that it's easy to imagine that that 1:44:50.040 --> 1:44:53.640 safety comes from getting away from the world. But historically 1:44:53.640 --> 1:44:58.360 that's just not how it works. Now the world finds you. 1:44:58.360 --> 1:45:02.000 You know, it's a being part of a group is 1:45:02.400 --> 1:45:10.160 always best and your your little group can never defend 1:45:10.200 --> 1:45:12.000 against the big group. I mean, if we want to 1:45:12.000 --> 1:45:14.720 put it in those terms, you know, you can't just 1:45:14.840 --> 1:45:21.080 hoard everything and uh, it just doesn't work. Might work 1:45:21.120 --> 1:45:23.479 for a little while, but yeah, so that you know 1:45:23.560 --> 1:45:26.719 that for me, that's the message I'm hoping, Yeah, people 1:45:26.760 --> 1:45:29.960 take from it. Well, Thank you very much, Chris. For 1:45:29.960 --> 1:45:32.080 those of you listening at home again, please do check 1:45:32.120 --> 1:45:35.400 out The Next Apocalypse The Art and Science of Survival 1:45:35.479 --> 1:45:37.760 by Chris Begley. That's going to do it for us 1:45:37.800 --> 1:45:40.599 all today. Chris, thank you again and have a wonderful 1:45:40.680 --> 1:45:49.599 day here you too, Thank you. Wrote Hello and welcome 1:45:49.640 --> 1:45:51.760 to our show. I'm Zoie de Channel and I'm so 1:45:51.840 --> 1:45:54.240 excited to be joined by my friends and cast mates 1:45:54.320 --> 1:45:57.200 Hannah Simone and Lamar and Morris to recap our hit 1:45:57.280 --> 1:46:00.680 television series New Girl. Join us every Monday on the 1:46:00.680 --> 1:46:03.320 Welcome to Our Show podcast, where we'll share behind the 1:46:03.320 --> 1:46:06.280 scenes stories of your favorite New Girl episodes, reveal the 1:46:06.320 --> 1:46:09.880 truth behind the legendary game True American, and discuss how 1:46:09.920 --> 1:46:12.559 this show got made with the writer's, guest stars, and 1:46:12.640 --> 1:46:15.320 directors who made the show so special. Fans have been 1:46:15.360 --> 1:46:17.679 begging us to do a New Girl recap for years, 1:46:17.760 --> 1:46:20.599 and we finally made a podcast where we answer all 1:46:20.720 --> 1:46:24.240 your burning questions like is there really a bear in 1:46:24.360 --> 1:46:27.519 every episode of New Girl? Plus each week you'll hear 1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:30.960 hilarious stories like this at the end when he says 1:46:31.000 --> 1:46:33.360 you got some schmid on your face. I feel like 1:46:33.479 --> 1:46:35.960 I pitched that joke. I believe that I feel like 1:46:35.960 --> 1:46:37.639 I did. I'm not on a thousand percent I want 1:46:37.640 --> 1:46:40.200 to say that was I tossed that one out listen 1:46:40.200 --> 1:46:42.160 to the Welcome to Our Show podcast on the I 1:46:42.280 --> 1:46:46.320 Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. 1:46:47.160 --> 1:46:50.559 Oh boy, Prop, You know what's fun is is live shows, 1:46:50.800 --> 1:46:55.800 live podcast shows, live podcasts are incredible. You know what 1:46:56.040 --> 1:46:59.320 isn't incredible is the plague, which is why we've decided 1:46:59.360 --> 1:47:00.760 to find a way to give you all a live 1:47:00.800 --> 1:47:04.400 show that won't spread the plague, a virtual live show. 1:47:05.240 --> 1:47:07.439 We had to pivot, and one can say you could 1:47:07.479 --> 1:47:10.919 really watch it from anywhere. You could watch it from anywhere. 1:47:10.960 --> 1:47:12.679 You could watch it. If you're on the I S 1:47:12.680 --> 1:47:14.639 S in space right now, you could watch it. If 1:47:14.680 --> 1:47:17.320 you're if you're in a trench in in eastern Ukraine, 1:47:17.479 --> 1:47:20.720 you could watch it. Uh, if you're driving and and 1:47:21.280 --> 1:47:23.880 don't care about paying attention to the road, you could 1:47:23.880 --> 1:47:25.720 watch it. All of these are options. With a version 1:47:25.760 --> 1:47:30.240 totally eliminated the problems of living in a three dimensional 1:47:30.320 --> 1:47:34.280 plane we have. It's it's groundbreaking. You could call it 1:47:34.320 --> 1:47:40.240 the metaverse. Anyway. It's gonna be February at six pm PST. 1:47:41.120 --> 1:47:43.960 Prop is going to be the guest. Sophie's gonna be 1:47:44.000 --> 1:47:46.280 there too, and you can buy tickets at moment House 1:47:46.320 --> 1:47:50.040 dot com slash Behind the Bastards, Slash Behind the Bastards, 1:47:50.080 --> 1:47:53.080 moment House dot com slash behind the Bastards. Watch it later. 1:47:53.520 --> 1:47:55.559 You don't have to watch it. It's so bad. You guys, 1:47:55.560 --> 1:47:59.160 we gotta do this are talking about it was good. 1:47:59.200 --> 1:48:01.880 I thought everybody was going to bed. We're all just 1:48:01.920 --> 1:48:04.559 saying the same ship over each other, all at once. 1:48:05.200 --> 1:48:10.360 That's so that they notice it. It's called chemistry. This 1:48:10.520 --> 1:48:14.040 was really bad. Adoption of teens from foster care is 1:48:14.080 --> 1:48:16.400 a topic not enough people know about, and we're here 1:48:16.439 --> 1:48:18.760 to change that. I'm April Din't, the host of the 1:48:18.760 --> 1:48:22.920 new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. Each 1:48:22.920 --> 1:48:26.599 episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by 1:48:26.600 --> 1:48:29.679 the families that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit 1:48:29.720 --> 1:48:33.200 adopt us Kids dot org slash podcast or subscribe to 1:48:33.280 --> 1:48:36.600 Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you 1:48:36.680 --> 1:48:38.599 by the U. S. Department of Health, the Human Services 1:48:38.600 --> 1:48:50.800 Administration for Children and Families, and the Act Council. Oh boy, 1:48:50.840 --> 1:48:55.040 it could happen here. That's the name of the podcast, 1:48:55.520 --> 1:49:00.840 And I'm Robert Evans, the guy hose sing the podcast. 1:49:00.880 --> 1:49:03.559 Who else is with me, is it is it? Garrison? Hello, 1:49:03.600 --> 1:49:08.320 good morning, afternoon evening, Garrison Davis. Ye, not yet a 1:49:08.439 --> 1:49:11.599 doctor Garrison Davis, not yet, soon soon to be Dr 1:49:11.680 --> 1:49:14.599 Garrison Davis. I don't know if you're going to pass 1:49:14.840 --> 1:49:17.000 the exam that I know you're gonna have to pass 1:49:17.120 --> 1:49:20.439 in order to get through this class. But yeah, a 1:49:20.439 --> 1:49:23.840 little teaser for the future. Speaking of the future, this 1:49:23.920 --> 1:49:26.439 is a podcast about the ways in which the future 1:49:26.680 --> 1:49:28.240 is going to be real fucked up and ways in 1:49:28.240 --> 1:49:30.760 which maybe we could try to make it less sucked up. Um. 1:49:30.800 --> 1:49:34.000 And today we have on a guest, Mr Calvin Norman, 1:49:34.320 --> 1:49:38.759 who posted a thread on our subbredit with the very simple, 1:49:39.080 --> 1:49:43.160 very unsettling title the woods are Bad um And Calvin, 1:49:43.160 --> 1:49:45.600 you want to introduce your yourself, your credentials and what 1:49:45.640 --> 1:49:47.360 you were trying to get across in that threat, because 1:49:47.360 --> 1:49:50.400 I found it very affecting. Yeah, thanks for rovert. So 1:49:50.760 --> 1:49:53.960 my name is, like you said, Calvin Norman. I work 1:49:54.000 --> 1:49:56.160 in forestry. I've worked in forestry for a while now. 1:49:56.160 --> 1:49:59.080 I used to be an industrial forester in the Great 1:49:59.160 --> 1:50:02.960 Lakes region, so Wisconsin, Michigan. Then I worked in the Southeast. 1:50:03.000 --> 1:50:05.760 I did my masters down there, and now I'm in 1:50:05.800 --> 1:50:07.759 the mid Atlantic, so I've I've kind of been around 1:50:07.760 --> 1:50:10.120 the eastern United States. I haven't gotten that west yet. 1:50:10.160 --> 1:50:13.519 But and I'm a certified forest or candidate certified forest 1:50:13.560 --> 1:50:15.000 I got like a year left on that, so I 1:50:15.120 --> 1:50:17.519 been around. I also do wildlife stuff. It's pretty fun. 1:50:18.040 --> 1:50:20.400 And yeah, your your thread. What I found interesting that 1:50:20.520 --> 1:50:22.559 I have a good friend who is in forestry or 1:50:22.600 --> 1:50:25.400 was in't forestry at least and got their degree and that, 1:50:25.600 --> 1:50:28.560 and we were we were out hunting in the Cascades 1:50:28.640 --> 1:50:32.120 a little earlier or a little later last year. Um, 1:50:32.120 --> 1:50:34.120 and there's this wonderful moment. We've been following a game 1:50:34.160 --> 1:50:36.479 trail up like this Steve hill side and it was 1:50:36.560 --> 1:50:38.360 kind of a clearing where we were a clear cut, 1:50:38.400 --> 1:50:39.920 but there's deep brush all around. And we get to 1:50:39.960 --> 1:50:41.240 the top of this thing, we look out and we 1:50:41.360 --> 1:50:44.479 just see, you know, these these rolling mountains of the Cascades, 1:50:44.520 --> 1:50:47.879 all covered in this the most this lush, beautiful greenery, 1:50:47.960 --> 1:50:50.920 all these these pine trees and everything. And my friend 1:50:51.000 --> 1:50:53.720 says to me, it's going to be totally different in 1:50:53.760 --> 1:50:56.559 twenty years. Um, it's already a different force than the 1:50:56.600 --> 1:50:58.559 one I grew up with. And and that that is. 1:50:58.640 --> 1:51:00.599 That is kind of the cliffs note. So what what 1:51:00.640 --> 1:51:02.320 you're You're getting into a lot of detail here, and 1:51:02.320 --> 1:51:04.439 I'm wondering if you could just kind of like, yeah, 1:51:04.520 --> 1:51:08.160 start on that explain kind of what's actually happening in 1:51:08.160 --> 1:51:09.840 our woods, or at least the woods that that you're 1:51:09.960 --> 1:51:13.519 comfortable talking about here. It's a big yeah. Yeah. This 1:51:13.560 --> 1:51:15.280 is a big continent and you have a pretty good 1:51:15.280 --> 1:51:18.479 international base. And I can't speak for the Europeans or 1:51:18.560 --> 1:51:20.840 the Canadians. There's a whole different ball game over there. 1:51:20.880 --> 1:51:25.519 And tropical stuff is just wild, really cool about wild stuff. 1:51:26.160 --> 1:51:29.439 So mainly talked about the US, mainly Eastern United States. 1:51:30.040 --> 1:51:32.519 So if you look at the eastern United States, this 1:51:32.600 --> 1:51:36.160 is a forest that has never existed before in the 1:51:36.200 --> 1:51:39.599 history of the United States. Um previous you know, prior 1:51:39.640 --> 1:51:42.840 to like nineteen twenty, our forest was like depending on 1:51:42.880 --> 1:51:47.200 the source of read, between twenty and chestnut with other 1:51:47.240 --> 1:51:49.799 species mixed in there. And now we have a mainly 1:51:49.800 --> 1:51:52.760 oak dominated forest. We lost all of our chest into 1:51:52.760 --> 1:51:55.840 the chestnut white um out Western You've got a couple 1:51:55.840 --> 1:51:58.000 of other things going on, but fire suppression just just 1:51:58.080 --> 1:52:00.479 changed the forest there. The same here in the East 1:52:00.479 --> 1:52:03.080 coast and into the Midwest. You know, you used to 1:52:03.080 --> 1:52:05.360 see a lot more fires going through. I mean, so 1:52:05.479 --> 1:52:07.040 that was lightning strikes, but no doubt a lot of 1:52:07.040 --> 1:52:09.599 it was you know, intentionally set by the first nations 1:52:09.640 --> 1:52:11.840 and people before the people that we think of as 1:52:11.880 --> 1:52:16.000 the first nations. And um, you know that has mainly disappeared, 1:52:16.000 --> 1:52:19.000 except for the southeast, where virus never really stopped being 1:52:19.000 --> 1:52:21.240 at the ground, which is really cool. But even their 1:52:21.240 --> 1:52:25.920 species composition has changed dramatically. Um. A lot of what 1:52:25.960 --> 1:52:28.400 we're seeing, as you know, changes in human management. But 1:52:28.479 --> 1:52:31.759 there's also a number of invasive species that have changed things, 1:52:31.960 --> 1:52:35.400 you know, like chestnut blight, emerald ashbore, Asia longhorn beetle 1:52:35.520 --> 1:52:37.559 is coming in. You know, those are just the past 1:52:37.640 --> 1:52:41.880 the understory. And you know, plants is a whole different ballgame. Um, 1:52:42.120 --> 1:52:44.719 it's it's it's all not great. It's all not great. 1:52:44.800 --> 1:52:47.960 I was talking with some colleagues and Agricultural Show right 1:52:48.000 --> 1:52:49.960 before I posted that more talking about how the woods 1:52:50.000 --> 1:52:54.040 were bad, and we very easily laid out a scenario 1:52:54.080 --> 1:52:57.360 where we lost the most of our remaining dominantory species. 1:52:58.040 --> 1:52:59.960 It was not at all hard to do. It took 1:53:00.000 --> 1:53:03.759 about two minutes, so not great. And then the West 1:53:03.800 --> 1:53:07.240 coast things aren't great either. And when you're talking about 1:53:08.080 --> 1:53:10.680 when you're talking about losing these species and stuff like 1:53:10.720 --> 1:53:13.360 the chestnut light, where is that coming from? How much 1:53:13.360 --> 1:53:15.960 of that is sort of as a result of climate change, 1:53:16.000 --> 1:53:17.960 Like we're having a lot of tree species have trouble 1:53:18.000 --> 1:53:20.200 here in the West because of how much hotter the 1:53:20.280 --> 1:53:23.040 summers are and how much drier things have gotten. So 1:53:23.080 --> 1:53:24.800 how much how much of what you're saying where you 1:53:24.840 --> 1:53:28.040 are is because there's been changes to the climate, and 1:53:28.040 --> 1:53:29.400 how much of it is you know, I guess kind 1:53:29.400 --> 1:53:32.360 of like globalism, like people bringing in pests and bringing 1:53:32.360 --> 1:53:34.879 in lights and stuff from other areas and it spreads 1:53:34.880 --> 1:53:37.960 like wildfire. Well, I think that we're just starting to 1:53:38.000 --> 1:53:41.280 see the beginning of climate change, like driving species you 1:53:41.320 --> 1:53:44.679 know up the mountain, off the mountain out west and here, 1:53:44.960 --> 1:53:47.040 you know, out of certain regions, you know, as things 1:53:47.040 --> 1:53:49.599 are getting hotter and drier or is you know, climbates 1:53:49.640 --> 1:53:52.519 are becoming more extreme. You know, here in the ne 1:53:52.560 --> 1:53:54.800 Atlantic we had one of the wettest years on record, 1:53:54.840 --> 1:53:56.960 I think it's like five or seven, whereas in the 1:53:56.960 --> 1:53:59.040 Midwest they had droughts but before that we had two 1:53:59.120 --> 1:54:02.479 years of drought, so you know, it's it's more extreme, 1:54:02.560 --> 1:54:04.599 and that's that's just starting to take part. But the 1:54:04.720 --> 1:54:08.519 extinctions and near extinctions have been mainly due to non 1:54:08.640 --> 1:54:13.000 native pest um. And that's just most of it right there. Um, 1:54:13.040 --> 1:54:16.160 just because we haven't really seen the start of climate change, yeah, 1:54:16.320 --> 1:54:19.120 impacting diseases. So like out west with the mountain piebele, 1:54:19.200 --> 1:54:22.439 you're seeing more generations of mountain piebele comes through. I 1:54:22.479 --> 1:54:26.080 was just doing a presentation for some folks in South Dakota, 1:54:26.720 --> 1:54:29.320 and something like a third of their total forest was 1:54:29.360 --> 1:54:34.560 impacted by mountain pine people. Jeez. And and what is 1:54:34.600 --> 1:54:36.879 that like when you actually talk about this, these beetles 1:54:36.960 --> 1:54:39.920 coming in. That's the kind of thing that even as 1:54:39.920 --> 1:54:41.960 we've gotten more comfortable talking about sort of of of 1:54:42.000 --> 1:54:45.080 the different kind of collapses spawned by climate change, I 1:54:45.120 --> 1:54:48.440 think that they we tend to imagine more spectacular things, 1:54:48.720 --> 1:54:52.280 these giants sweeping fires that burned through huge chunks of states, 1:54:52.320 --> 1:54:57.040 and these huge like environmental calamities. What is this like? 1:54:57.240 --> 1:54:59.240 What happens when one of these beetles hits a forest? 1:54:59.280 --> 1:55:01.960 One of these beetles specs obviously not like a singular beetle, 1:55:02.000 --> 1:55:05.000 Like what what is actually like how quick is the 1:55:05.040 --> 1:55:07.360 effect and what kind of comes after that? Like I 1:55:07.440 --> 1:55:09.600 I know there's sort of a shock wight. It's kind 1:55:09.640 --> 1:55:11.240 of like a bomb going off. I'm interested in kind 1:55:11.280 --> 1:55:15.080 of tracing the root of that explosion, if that makes sense. Yeah, 1:55:15.160 --> 1:55:17.600 So it depends species, its specs. Chest. That plate was 1:55:17.680 --> 1:55:19.720 really fast and it just seems to have torn through 1:55:20.400 --> 1:55:23.000 the chest instative range. So chest that went from Florida 1:55:23.040 --> 1:55:26.480 to Maine and out west like Tennessee kind of area 1:55:26.520 --> 1:55:29.600 there um, and it just you know, in like something 1:55:29.640 --> 1:55:33.320 like fifteen years, the entire species gone. Emerald ashboard has 1:55:33.360 --> 1:55:35.440 taken a little bit longer. Got here in the eighties, 1:55:35.440 --> 1:55:37.320 started kind of going off in the mid two thousands, 1:55:37.360 --> 1:55:39.520 and it's killed a couple of billion trees. So when 1:55:39.560 --> 1:55:41.680 that hits a small forest, you know, if it's a 1:55:41.920 --> 1:55:44.760 if it's a pretty you know, beatle that kills pretty fast. 1:55:44.760 --> 1:55:47.680 Like Emerald dashboard, it gets into your trees. It starts 1:55:47.720 --> 1:55:50.360 with one or two, and then within four or five 1:55:50.440 --> 1:55:52.680 years it's it's in most of them in a forest. 1:55:53.000 --> 1:55:56.120 And then with Emoral dashboard they're dead and five Hemlock 1:55:56.160 --> 1:55:58.560 William Delgit is pretty similar. It'll just show up one 1:55:58.600 --> 1:56:00.920 day in a stand and then the hemlocks are dead 1:56:00.920 --> 1:56:05.000 within five seven years. Uh. And you know, sometimes you 1:56:05.080 --> 1:56:07.560 know what's going on, you know, because embal dashboard is 1:56:07.680 --> 1:56:10.040 very clear signs. And other times you don't know what's 1:56:10.040 --> 1:56:12.160 going on because the tree can't be so tall and 1:56:12.200 --> 1:56:14.280 all of a sudden trees are getting thinner and thinner 1:56:14.280 --> 1:56:17.840 and then they're dead. Or you have pests like um 1:56:18.240 --> 1:56:21.080 oak will and that in that trees are dead, you know, 1:56:21.200 --> 1:56:23.760 in two months, and then it spreads out like a circle. 1:56:23.840 --> 1:56:25.800 You know it kind of exactly when you see like 1:56:25.800 --> 1:56:29.760 a bacteria like growth medium with the bacteria spreading out, 1:56:29.760 --> 1:56:32.440 that's oak spreads and it's just like trees are dead, 1:56:32.640 --> 1:56:34.480 you know, two months and they spread out and out 1:56:34.480 --> 1:56:39.120 and out and scary sometimes. Is there anything that can 1:56:39.160 --> 1:56:40.960 be I mean it sounds like with with most of 1:56:40.960 --> 1:56:42.840 these cases, like with what's happened to kind of like 1:56:42.840 --> 1:56:46.440 the chestnuts, and it's it's too late for a lot 1:56:46.480 --> 1:56:48.440 of that. Is there anything that can actually be done 1:56:48.480 --> 1:56:50.600 to stop this? Like I know we have all these 1:56:51.160 --> 1:56:53.200 structures in place to try to stop the spread of 1:56:53.240 --> 1:56:55.920 invasive species, but like once they're in there, it kind 1:56:55.920 --> 1:57:00.320 of seems like usually we're fucked. Yeah that that okay, Yeah, 1:57:00.440 --> 1:57:03.360 once you get past, like there's what's called the invasive 1:57:03.400 --> 1:57:06.120 species establishment curve, so it's an escar and once you 1:57:06.160 --> 1:57:07.960 get like right, like once it starts take it up, 1:57:08.000 --> 1:57:10.600 it's like, oh, well, we're done here. So let's let's 1:57:10.600 --> 1:57:14.040 start thinking about the future. And as you lose more species, 1:57:14.080 --> 1:57:16.120 like what do we do here? Or if you're like 1:57:16.160 --> 1:57:17.600 you know, in the case of the case of actions, 1:57:17.640 --> 1:57:19.560 like this action is going in a swamp, I have 1:57:19.640 --> 1:57:22.680 nothing else that's going to grow here, So now I 1:57:22.720 --> 1:57:25.240 just have an open wetland, like I keep grow any 1:57:25.320 --> 1:57:28.640 native trees here were done. So the biggest thing is 1:57:28.640 --> 1:57:31.000 preventioned like don't don't bring invasive species in or non 1:57:31.080 --> 1:57:34.240 native species in. I was talking to a lady couple 1:57:34.280 --> 1:57:37.400 of weeks ago and she hasn't roll or not. She 1:57:37.520 --> 1:57:40.680 has hemlock William Delgi on a property and she brought 1:57:40.680 --> 1:57:43.040 in a bio control or she assumed was a bio 1:57:43.080 --> 1:57:47.960 control from the Japan. It's a beetle and yeah, in 1:57:48.000 --> 1:57:49.800 this case, it was one that had been tested and 1:57:49.840 --> 1:57:51.840 failed because it doesn't make it through the winter. But 1:57:51.880 --> 1:57:53.840 you know, stuff like that, like just just don't do that, 1:57:53.920 --> 1:57:56.920 you know, I shaped the thought there, but don't with 1:57:57.000 --> 1:57:59.320 some of these species we have, you know, you know, 1:57:59.400 --> 1:58:01.840 like hemlock, the indulgent. We have pesticides that worked really 1:58:01.840 --> 1:58:03.520 well and that you apply them ordered the tree and 1:58:03.520 --> 1:58:05.360 so it's like, all right, I treated this tree. This 1:58:05.440 --> 1:58:07.960 tree is good for seven years. Some of them, like 1:58:07.960 --> 1:58:10.480 emerald lashboard, you're done. There's just nothing you can do. 1:58:10.720 --> 1:58:15.360 So yeah, it's a prevention, prevention, and then then you 1:58:15.400 --> 1:58:18.760 can quarantine. But then you know, it's like where this 1:58:18.800 --> 1:58:20.320 county is done, so we're gonna just try to make 1:58:20.320 --> 1:58:24.160 sure that only this county dies. Jeez, you mentioned a 1:58:24.160 --> 1:58:26.520 bit earlier like thinking about the future, what does that 1:58:26.560 --> 1:58:28.720 actually look like when when we hit a situation as 1:58:28.760 --> 1:58:30.240 we have with a lot of these species, were like, 1:58:30.240 --> 1:58:33.200 all right, well this ship's we ain't we ain't stopping this. 1:58:33.760 --> 1:58:37.320 What is what like, what do people like you do next? 1:58:37.440 --> 1:58:39.960 Like what is the next kind of step for the 1:58:40.000 --> 1:58:41.960 forests or is it just sort of a smoke them 1:58:41.960 --> 1:58:44.920 ale you got them kind of thing. Uh, Sometimes it's 1:58:44.920 --> 1:58:46.480 smoke them while you got them. So like beach Park 1:58:46.520 --> 1:58:49.160 disease is going through just roasting beach in the East coast, 1:58:49.240 --> 1:58:51.840 it's going it's going to the Midwest, and so there 1:58:51.880 --> 1:58:53.800 it's kind of like, well, you know, if it's in 1:58:53.840 --> 1:58:55.520 there and your beach or dyeing and take them out, 1:58:55.880 --> 1:58:59.280 and if they're not, don't there's it's fat. But there's 1:58:59.320 --> 1:59:02.000 one percent that can make it. So you know, like 1:59:02.160 --> 1:59:05.480 maybe we find that one percent and last words, nine failed. 1:59:05.480 --> 1:59:07.640 But I've seen you know, in the past couple of years, 1:59:07.680 --> 1:59:09.800 I've seen two that made it. So like if we 1:59:09.840 --> 1:59:13.040 don't cut them all, maybe someone survive. Theoretically we could 1:59:13.080 --> 1:59:16.080 then like clone or breed or whatever the trees that 1:59:16.120 --> 1:59:20.000 live and and a few generations have more of them. Um, 1:59:20.800 --> 1:59:23.920 if other ship doesn't happen. Yeah, the chestnut project has 1:59:23.960 --> 1:59:25.320 been going on for the last hundred years, and it 1:59:25.560 --> 1:59:27.520 looks like I'll take about forty more. It's that's a 1:59:27.560 --> 1:59:30.200 controversial opinion. Some people say it's a fashioned forty but 1:59:30.920 --> 1:59:34.400 you know years oh the chestnut foundation. Really it's a 1:59:34.440 --> 1:59:38.040 really neat thing. So there were some chestnuts that were 1:59:38.040 --> 1:59:40.720 found resistant in some planet outside the range of chestnut light, 1:59:41.040 --> 1:59:43.680 and so the ideas where they slowly started back breeding. 1:59:43.760 --> 1:59:47.120 So they crossed in Chinese chestnut which is resistant to 1:59:47.160 --> 1:59:49.840 the blight, which is native to China and East Asia, 1:59:50.200 --> 1:59:53.240 and so they crossed them in with the remaining chestnut 1:59:53.320 --> 1:59:56.000 with the hopes of you know, kind of eventually breeding 1:59:56.000 --> 2:00:00.520 out the Chinese but just maintaining the American chest snut 2:00:00.760 --> 2:00:02.560 and just getting that gene in there. And so they 2:00:02.560 --> 2:00:04.840 started that back in like the thirties and forties when 2:00:04.840 --> 2:00:08.600 they realized what was happening. Well, you know, today is 2:00:08.640 --> 2:00:13.880 two and we are still without American chestnut in the forest. 2:00:13.880 --> 2:00:17.560 There are some backbread versions that are more resistant, but 2:00:17.640 --> 2:00:20.160 they will still get infected. I've been to a couple 2:00:20.200 --> 2:00:23.280 of chestnut nurseries where they're doing experiments and it's it's 2:00:23.280 --> 2:00:25.120 sad because they'll they'll get up and then they'll die. 2:00:25.360 --> 2:00:26.920 They'll get up and they'll die, and it's like, oh, 2:00:26.960 --> 2:00:28.640 there's two, but there are two over there in the 2:00:28.640 --> 2:00:31.120 corner that made it, and those get you know, onto 2:00:31.120 --> 2:00:33.280 the next one. But there is some work out of 2:00:34.120 --> 2:00:37.560 New York Sunny in New York where they altered a 2:00:37.640 --> 2:00:41.360 chestnut and they put in um. They just they just 2:00:41.440 --> 2:00:44.280 change the genes. So the version of the genus makes 2:00:44.640 --> 2:00:48.640 chestnut flight resistant is in that and that's getting approved 2:00:48.640 --> 2:00:51.080 by the E p A, f d A and U 2:00:51.160 --> 2:00:54.160 s d A. Hopefully that gets approved. If that gets approved, 2:00:54.160 --> 2:00:57.880 we get real, we get real further along because the 2:00:57.920 --> 2:01:00.879 resistant trees are not the same aim as the American 2:01:00.960 --> 2:01:04.640 just the resistant trees are more they're shorter and more shrubby, 2:01:04.680 --> 2:01:08.200 and they don't fulfill the overstory cannot be rolled chest. 2:01:08.200 --> 2:01:12.360 I used to playing, um, that's that's best case scenario. 2:01:12.480 --> 2:01:16.600 Worst case scenarios. You're like, um, butternut which was driven 2:01:16.640 --> 2:01:19.040 to functional extension at the same time, and we're just 2:01:19.080 --> 2:01:22.680 nowhere on that produce, working on some stuff, but it's nowhere. 2:01:22.680 --> 2:01:27.640 They're not in the woods now. How how much of 2:01:27.680 --> 2:01:31.080 like because I tend to roll my eyes pretty hard 2:01:31.080 --> 2:01:33.680 when we're talking particular climate change and people are like, well, 2:01:33.720 --> 2:01:36.360 I think that science is going to save our asses 2:01:36.360 --> 2:01:38.320 from this one. We're gonna we're gonna develop some like 2:01:38.360 --> 2:01:40.960 miraculous carbon capture method and like at the last minute, 2:01:40.960 --> 2:01:43.240 we'll we'll we'll be able to reverse everything and it'll 2:01:43.240 --> 2:01:45.400 be fine. I tend to roll my eyes at that. 2:01:45.480 --> 2:01:48.400 But this, and maybe I'm not obviously I don't understand 2:01:48.400 --> 2:01:50.240 this in nearly the level you do is this kind 2:01:50.280 --> 2:01:52.080 of a thing where if there's hope for a lot 2:01:52.120 --> 2:01:54.120 of these species and a lot of these biomas, it's 2:01:54.120 --> 2:01:56.000 going to be and stuff like we figure out how 2:01:56.000 --> 2:01:58.880 to hack these trees to keep them alive, and like, 2:01:59.000 --> 2:02:02.120 is that really kind of where we are? I know 2:02:02.280 --> 2:02:05.240 some very good tree genesis and tree breeders, but I 2:02:05.680 --> 2:02:08.480 don't think that they have the capabilities of, you know, 2:02:08.960 --> 2:02:10.920 coming up with trees that are resistant to all of 2:02:10.960 --> 2:02:13.840 the various fungi and bugs that are out there. And 2:02:13.880 --> 2:02:15.760 even if they do, it's you know, you have to 2:02:15.760 --> 2:02:17.440 get them out into the woods. You have to plant. 2:02:17.520 --> 2:02:20.520 We have billion makers of forest. You've got to get 2:02:20.560 --> 2:02:22.040 them out into the woods. You have to have the 2:02:22.120 --> 2:02:24.280 nurseries to get them out. There's you know, even if 2:02:24.280 --> 2:02:26.800 you were able to create trees that resistant to all 2:02:26.800 --> 2:02:29.840 of these pests, it would be impossible. So no, the 2:02:29.920 --> 2:02:34.000 only the only answer is, uh, don't don't do climate change. 2:02:34.080 --> 2:02:37.480 And to the carbon captured perspective, um, the only machine 2:02:37.480 --> 2:02:39.680 that's going to capture the amount of carbon we need 2:02:39.960 --> 2:02:43.600 our trees. I do. I do forest carbon stuff, which 2:02:43.640 --> 2:02:46.160 is a whole different episode. I want to I mean, 2:02:46.160 --> 2:02:48.880 I'm there, I'm extremely interested in that because obviously, like 2:02:48.920 --> 2:02:51.560 we've we've been supported by a couple of companies who 2:02:51.600 --> 2:02:52.880 like one of the things they do to try to 2:02:52.920 --> 2:02:55.400 be nice is they'll they'll plant trees and stuff, which 2:02:55.440 --> 2:02:58.840 is not useless. But also a lot of people think 2:02:58.920 --> 2:03:01.600 that that's what building a forest is, and like, no, 2:03:01.880 --> 2:03:04.080 forests are a huge part of the problem with why 2:03:04.120 --> 2:03:06.120 the West is so flammable. As we chopped down all 2:03:06.120 --> 2:03:09.560 these trees and we grew back just the trees um 2:03:09.600 --> 2:03:11.680 to chop them down again, and that turns out to 2:03:11.720 --> 2:03:14.360 not be resilient at all to anything, because trees do 2:03:14.400 --> 2:03:17.360 not live on their own ever. Yeah, that's why it's 2:03:17.360 --> 2:03:22.400 a forest. It's not just exactly right, Yeah, no, it's yeah, 2:03:22.800 --> 2:03:27.520 that's that's a planting. There's not the infrastructure to plant 2:03:27.520 --> 2:03:30.120 our way of climate change. There's not the land. It's 2:03:30.200 --> 2:03:33.760 just impossible. And so even even if even if they're 2:03:33.760 --> 2:03:35.880 worthy infrastructure in the lane, that we don't have the 2:03:36.000 --> 2:03:39.040 time because you know, trees take time to grow. They 2:03:39.080 --> 2:03:43.000 work on a different time scale than humans do, even 2:03:43.040 --> 2:03:46.840 your your shortest lived trees sixty eight years. Yeah, and 2:03:46.880 --> 2:03:48.960 it is one of those things where I mean, we 2:03:48.960 --> 2:03:50.280 we had this is what we taught we kind of 2:03:50.320 --> 2:03:53.480 started this new season which is forever with which is 2:03:53.520 --> 2:03:56.160 that like there's no there's nothing we can do that 2:03:56.200 --> 2:03:58.760 will stop us from continuing to face worse and worse 2:03:59.120 --> 2:04:01.880 because because consequences of climate change, because the carbon is 2:04:01.880 --> 2:04:03.960 already been admitted, right, you can't just pull it out. 2:04:04.040 --> 2:04:06.760 Warming is even if we were to like make very 2:04:06.840 --> 2:04:10.320 revolutionary changes tomorrow, there's still some degree to which it's 2:04:10.320 --> 2:04:13.200 going to get worse. Um. But when it comes to 2:04:13.280 --> 2:04:16.720 like within your field, what like carbon capture using trees 2:04:16.720 --> 2:04:18.120 and stuff, can you talk to us about like what 2:04:18.200 --> 2:04:20.600 that actually looks like as opposed to sort of the 2:04:20.880 --> 2:04:23.040 will plant a tree for every dollar you spend kind 2:04:23.040 --> 2:04:26.880 of thing. Um, So yeah, I actually I actually can. 2:04:26.960 --> 2:04:29.480 It's I do a lot of my work about forest 2:04:29.480 --> 2:04:36.640 carbon stuff. So yeah, Basically, the idea is to make 2:04:36.680 --> 2:04:38.960 sure you have the best way to get carbon cy 2:04:38.960 --> 2:04:42.560 equestration of the force is to have a healthy functioning forest. 2:04:43.120 --> 2:04:44.920 And that's you know kind of where these pests and 2:04:45.000 --> 2:04:47.280 climate change are interfering with that. And so you know, 2:04:47.640 --> 2:04:49.840 to maintain a healthy functioning force in the East Coast, 2:04:49.920 --> 2:04:51.320 you know, some of these you need to have fire, 2:04:51.480 --> 2:04:53.040 some of them not. Some of them are too wet 2:04:53.080 --> 2:04:55.720 to burn. Uh. And then you know, harvesting needs to 2:04:55.800 --> 2:04:57.640 take place in some of these some of these don't 2:04:57.640 --> 2:04:59.840 need to be harvested. Again, we're talking, you know, no 2:05:00.000 --> 2:05:02.920 means makers of forest here. So we're gonna be incredibly 2:05:02.960 --> 2:05:07.000 broad and we got to keep invasives out. You need 2:05:07.040 --> 2:05:10.040 to keep force pest to a minimum, and then make 2:05:10.080 --> 2:05:12.720 sure that you're managing the forest, you know, as best 2:05:12.720 --> 2:05:15.360 as it can be managed. And I say managed, this 2:05:15.440 --> 2:05:17.400 is not something new. Humans have been on the East 2:05:17.440 --> 2:05:19.840 Coast since. You know, it depends on the artifacts you 2:05:19.840 --> 2:05:22.360 want to look at and what archaeologists you want to trust. 2:05:22.400 --> 2:05:25.640 But like twenty five to twenty thousand years ago, and 2:05:25.680 --> 2:05:28.560 the last glaciers left the East Coast eighteen thousand years ago, 2:05:28.840 --> 2:05:32.120 so we had people here before the glaciers were gone. 2:05:32.440 --> 2:05:34.840 So these forests have never not had humans hands on 2:05:34.880 --> 2:05:39.480 them and never not been touched and manage by humans. Um. 2:05:39.520 --> 2:05:41.520 And you know, we gotta make sure we're doing the 2:05:41.520 --> 2:05:43.080 best we can. You know, some of that means that 2:05:43.120 --> 2:05:45.520 we're managing force with what's best for you know, that 2:05:45.560 --> 2:05:47.840 means managing for us for what's best with the force 2:05:47.920 --> 2:05:50.040 of mind, nut with best what's best for the end 2:05:50.040 --> 2:05:53.200 of the quarter, what's best for your bank account. That's 2:05:53.240 --> 2:05:56.360 hard to do because forces are getting more and more 2:05:56.360 --> 2:05:58.600 expensive to manage and to you know, manage just an 2:05:58.640 --> 2:05:59.840 able here in the East Coast, we got to do 2:05:59.880 --> 2:06:01.840 a lot of fencing. We've got to keep deer out 2:06:01.840 --> 2:06:04.680 of force because their populations are so high. It's just 2:06:04.840 --> 2:06:07.000 ridiculously high, and they've never got to come back down. 2:06:07.480 --> 2:06:09.920 You know, we have to spray invasive species, we have 2:06:10.000 --> 2:06:12.120 to pull invasive species. You gotta go through and you've 2:06:12.080 --> 2:06:14.880 gotta make sure you know you're you're preventing all those 2:06:14.960 --> 2:06:16.600 kinds of stuff. And so we can take you know, 2:06:16.680 --> 2:06:18.920 you can if you do a good shelter, would you 2:06:18.960 --> 2:06:21.000 can like make four dollars out of it, and then 2:06:21.000 --> 2:06:22.840 you can put all that money back into growing your 2:06:22.840 --> 2:06:25.520 next generation of force. So forces is really going from 2:06:25.520 --> 2:06:27.920 a profit making venture in a lot of cases to 2:06:28.040 --> 2:06:31.880 like you're barely making money or you're you're like breaking 2:06:31.920 --> 2:06:34.880 even or losing money. It's it's no longer you know, 2:06:34.920 --> 2:06:36.240 if you really want to do it great, You're not 2:06:36.240 --> 2:06:38.200 always making money, which is hard for people to get 2:06:38.200 --> 2:06:41.040 their head around. I mean, it's the kind of thing 2:06:41.080 --> 2:06:43.920 that in a reasonable world, huge amounts of money would 2:06:43.960 --> 2:06:46.160 be adverted to from other things, like I don't know, 2:06:47.040 --> 2:06:49.720 thirty five, Um, I feel like you guys could do 2:06:49.760 --> 2:06:52.120 a lot with one f thirty five worth of cash. 2:06:52.600 --> 2:06:54.960 I feel like that would solve almost all of our problems. Yeah, 2:06:54.960 --> 2:06:56.840 because the problems that you see in force we don't 2:06:56.920 --> 2:06:59.200 cost a lot to fix, but it it costs a 2:06:59.200 --> 2:07:01.280 lot for a four stonner be that you know, an 2:07:01.320 --> 2:07:05.040 agency or person, it costs a lot. Yeah. It's like 2:07:05.200 --> 2:07:07.800 all of the issues around climate change kind of all 2:07:08.000 --> 2:07:12.320 circle around, like growth based economics and a lot of 2:07:12.320 --> 2:07:15.520 the like nothing has a shared cause, but they all 2:07:15.640 --> 2:07:18.920 have this similar aspect to them where yeah, every every 2:07:18.920 --> 2:07:22.320 part of them gets worse by the extreme focus on 2:07:22.360 --> 2:07:25.840 economic growth at all costs and that suffers that that 2:07:25.840 --> 2:07:28.680 that makes everything and everyone suffer. So, you know, it 2:07:28.720 --> 2:07:30.680 would be nice if since we have a government, it 2:07:30.680 --> 2:07:32.920 would be nice if they do, you know, give more 2:07:33.000 --> 2:07:37.200 funding towards uh stuff like this type of force management, 2:07:37.200 --> 2:07:39.480 which I know they do some, but you know, a 2:07:39.560 --> 2:07:41.160 fraction of it compared to what they give to like 2:07:41.240 --> 2:07:45.240 the Pentagon or you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I mean 2:07:45.280 --> 2:07:48.320 even big you know forestries technically agriculture, but even like 2:07:48.560 --> 2:07:52.280 you know, like corn and like grow agriculture's yeah, they 2:07:52.320 --> 2:07:56.280 have the corn as massive subsidies compared to compared to 2:07:56.280 --> 2:08:00.000 everything else. Yeah, like the NRCS to the Natural Resource 2:08:00.120 --> 2:08:02.480 this Conservation Service, they do a lot with you know, 2:08:02.720 --> 2:08:06.680 farm agriculture, and you know, they it's very difficult for 2:08:06.680 --> 2:08:09.200 forest ollers to get that kind of money into forests. 2:08:09.240 --> 2:08:11.400 If we could get you know, that money, it would 2:08:11.440 --> 2:08:14.680 be a game changer. But we're not there. Uh, there 2:08:14.800 --> 2:08:17.760 is some change being made in the administration. But yeah, 2:08:17.840 --> 2:08:21.840 that's like stuff and that doesn't help, doesn't help today, 2:08:22.040 --> 2:08:28.360 that doesn't still unpassed today. Yeah, you can't unkill trees. Yeah, 2:08:28.480 --> 2:08:32.480 I guess is there anything that you're optimistic about within 2:08:32.520 --> 2:08:35.080 your field right now? Like if you I think that 2:08:35.120 --> 2:08:39.040 would be handy both in terms of like is there 2:08:39.080 --> 2:08:43.440 any sort of is there a light at the end 2:08:43.480 --> 2:08:47.080 of the tunnel? Um, because I'll admit, like, when I 2:08:47.120 --> 2:08:51.440 think about not having the forests, that's pretty much the 2:08:51.480 --> 2:08:54.280 most blackpilling thing I can imagine, like for myself, like 2:08:54.360 --> 2:08:57.480 that's the that's the thing that I have trouble coping 2:08:57.520 --> 2:09:00.000 with emotionally more than anything else. There's lots of horror 2:09:00.040 --> 2:09:03.520 all things about what's coming, but that's the one that 2:09:03.640 --> 2:09:07.200 like really scares me the most. Yeah, I don't think 2:09:07.240 --> 2:09:10.000 we're gonna lose forests as a thing. They're just were 2:09:10.040 --> 2:09:12.760 to become. You know, if without things being done, they 2:09:12.960 --> 2:09:15.680 become less, they're gonna be fewer of them, and they're 2:09:15.720 --> 2:09:19.040 gonna become much less diverse and functioning. You know, for 2:09:19.160 --> 2:09:22.080 a lot of these you know, invasive species, be they plants, 2:09:22.280 --> 2:09:24.320 you know, especially in basive plants, we have a lot 2:09:24.320 --> 2:09:26.360 of we know how to control them. I was just 2:09:26.360 --> 2:09:29.240 writing a thing about controlling wavy basket grasp, wavy leaf 2:09:29.240 --> 2:09:32.000 basket grass. It's a new invasive species to my area. 2:09:32.200 --> 2:09:34.920 It's highly controllable, and we know how to do it. 2:09:34.920 --> 2:09:37.520 It's just again a question of people, you know, getting 2:09:37.520 --> 2:09:40.040 out there and money to do it. You know, if 2:09:40.040 --> 2:09:42.320 we have the people and the money, we can solve 2:09:42.320 --> 2:09:44.400 that problem. Oh also we stop you know bringing that 2:09:44.440 --> 2:09:47.480 in the be even better. We you know, actually took 2:09:47.920 --> 2:09:51.080 you know i PM, right, not i PM, but quarantine 2:09:51.120 --> 2:09:53.520 and pest management seriously, and you know, people like stopped 2:09:53.560 --> 2:09:56.440 throwing you know, they look like plant out of the 2:09:56.480 --> 2:09:58.400 park just because like I don't want to kill it, Like, 2:09:58.480 --> 2:10:01.200 let's let it be free. Don't do that. Goldfish, don't 2:10:01.240 --> 2:10:03.720 don't throw them in the lake. That's why you have 2:10:03.840 --> 2:10:06.600 huge goldfish coming out of Lake Florida. Don't. Don't just 2:10:06.680 --> 2:10:08.880 cut pets loose and stuff like that. And if we 2:10:08.920 --> 2:10:10.560 can get a lot of that under control, would be 2:10:10.600 --> 2:10:12.520 in a lot better place. Again, I don't think they 2:10:12.640 --> 2:10:15.720 force of disappearing in the future unmanaged. I think they 2:10:15.800 --> 2:10:18.800 just become fewer and less diverse and less flunky, and 2:10:18.840 --> 2:10:21.600 then you lose spaces species based on them, like birds, 2:10:22.040 --> 2:10:25.360 you know, wildlife, all that kind of stuff. And also 2:10:25.400 --> 2:10:27.960 I mean one of the things that also they have 2:10:28.040 --> 2:10:30.960 to become less accessible, both because there will be less 2:10:30.960 --> 2:10:33.800 of the man um as things get more fragile, Like 2:10:33.840 --> 2:10:36.280 how else do you keep some of these invasive species 2:10:36.320 --> 2:10:38.680 out but keeping people out, which is I think a 2:10:38.800 --> 2:10:42.080 bad move for a lot of reasons. But I I 2:10:42.120 --> 2:10:46.160 don't know. I also don't know, like is it possible 2:10:46.640 --> 2:10:50.120 to have a global society where there is not just 2:10:50.200 --> 2:10:52.520 trade but the movement of people on a wide scale 2:10:52.560 --> 2:10:57.000 and not have this kind of ship crossing right, Like 2:10:57.080 --> 2:10:59.840 that's when I think about as as someone who's more 2:11:00.040 --> 2:11:02.680 US and anarchists. When I think about the only things 2:11:02.720 --> 2:11:05.440 that a border should exist to do, it's it's keep 2:11:05.800 --> 2:11:07.440 stuff like that out. But I just I don't know 2:11:07.520 --> 2:11:10.080 how possible that is. Like a lot of this stuff is. 2:11:10.760 --> 2:11:13.080 I mean, is this the kind of thing that's just 2:11:13.120 --> 2:11:16.320 spread by carelessness? Because it kind of seems like it 2:11:16.400 --> 2:11:18.600 can be spread to by people who think they're taking 2:11:18.640 --> 2:11:22.240 care Yeah, and both is the answer. There's some very 2:11:22.280 --> 2:11:26.040 good research out there about the relativeness between global trade 2:11:26.400 --> 2:11:29.120 and you know, invasive species. But that also you look 2:11:29.120 --> 2:11:32.400 at like colonialism and colonial societies. There were these things 2:11:32.480 --> 2:11:36.320 called introductory societies who loung get the name wrong, but 2:11:36.400 --> 2:11:38.680 basically they are clubs. It's like, all right, I would 2:11:38.680 --> 2:11:40.400 like clubs of people like I would like to see 2:11:41.080 --> 2:11:43.080 this new place that I live in, like the old place. 2:11:43.120 --> 2:11:45.640 Like the European starling was introduced in New York because 2:11:45.760 --> 2:11:47.840 you know, one guy, I wanted to see all of 2:11:47.840 --> 2:11:51.920 the birds of Shakespeare in Christ. Oh, I get even 2:11:52.000 --> 2:11:55.560 better for one for you. The moth, formerly known as 2:11:55.560 --> 2:11:57.320 gypsy moths as see as I'm gonna say that word 2:11:57.640 --> 2:12:00.720 um is now found in America because of this one guy. 2:12:01.360 --> 2:12:02.800 I'll put the name in the chat for you so 2:12:02.840 --> 2:12:03.960 you can say it, because I know how much you 2:12:04.000 --> 2:12:09.720 love saying French names. This guy is one of the most. 2:12:13.200 --> 2:12:15.040 Here comes the wave of comme it's a better anti 2:12:15.120 --> 2:12:20.600 French racism. Oh no, no, yeah, oh, I don't know. 2:12:21.000 --> 2:12:26.000 It doesn't matter. We still get well. Nobody does about 2:12:26.000 --> 2:12:30.520 my Italian accent. It's just the French. It's once again, 2:12:30.560 --> 2:12:36.360 the Italians deserve it as well. Tell us about at end. Yeah. 2:12:36.360 --> 2:12:39.160 So so this guy, he was a French scientist who 2:12:39.160 --> 2:12:40.840 who left France. He came to the US for a 2:12:40.880 --> 2:12:44.200 little while. He got Massachusetts. He was also also an 2:12:44.240 --> 2:12:47.480 amateur entomologist, and he was like, oh, you know what 2:12:47.560 --> 2:12:49.480 I think American needs is I think they need a 2:12:49.480 --> 2:12:51.680 silk industry. Now they have a nagtive silk off. It 2:12:51.720 --> 2:12:54.520 doesn't produce good silk. It doesn't breed fast. So he 2:12:54.600 --> 2:12:58.360 brought in the the matic I gotta do the scientific 2:12:58.480 --> 2:13:00.280 name because we changed the name on it because the 2:13:00.280 --> 2:13:02.880 common name is a slur. So we're not doing so 2:13:03.080 --> 2:13:06.960 la matria disparo. So he brought this this moth in 2:13:07.040 --> 2:13:10.000 from Europe. Uh, and he started trying to breathe these 2:13:10.000 --> 2:13:13.480 two moths which are not related at all. It didn't work, obviously, 2:13:13.920 --> 2:13:15.480 and then he just kind of, you know, he went 2:13:15.520 --> 2:13:17.040 he went off to being an astronomer, and he just 2:13:17.120 --> 2:13:19.560 let these moths go in his backyard and he didn't 2:13:19.600 --> 2:13:21.320 tell anyone they were there. And then all of a 2:13:21.320 --> 2:13:24.880 sudden these things escaped, and now they're killing trees, you know, 2:13:25.240 --> 2:13:28.200 across the eastern United States, and they're in Washington, Oregon. 2:13:28.520 --> 2:13:30.760 I think they're in DC a little bit too great. 2:13:31.080 --> 2:13:34.920 So yeah, that's that's that's that's such a good parable, 2:13:35.080 --> 2:13:38.000 like a parallel to the invasive species that is French people. 2:13:38.240 --> 2:13:42.000 That really does just tie up all all aspects of 2:13:42.000 --> 2:13:45.720 that amazing. It makes me think a lot everything you're 2:13:45.720 --> 2:13:48.840 saying about cut Zoo, which which is in the I've 2:13:48.920 --> 2:13:50.880 heard some people say they're getting a handle on it. 2:13:50.920 --> 2:13:53.160 I don't know how to evaluate that at the moment, 2:13:53.200 --> 2:13:55.480 but when I was last living down there, it was 2:13:55.520 --> 2:14:00.600 just like devouring the entire southeast. Yeah, you can handle 2:14:00.600 --> 2:14:02.840 it again, if you want to spread it, you can. 2:14:02.920 --> 2:14:04.320 You can get what's called it chew groove, so a 2:14:04.360 --> 2:14:06.640 bunch of goats. You can get a handle on it. 2:14:06.680 --> 2:14:09.280 But again that's money and effort. So it's just a question. 2:14:09.280 --> 2:14:12.360 So you do get delicious, delicious goat made. Oh my gosh, 2:14:12.680 --> 2:14:15.280 I tell you what. The people who do goat invasive management, 2:14:15.320 --> 2:14:18.200 they haven't made. Would they do goats out to people 2:14:18.280 --> 2:14:21.360 they get paid for the goats and they also get 2:14:21.400 --> 2:14:23.520 their goats fence, or would they slaughter them they even pay? 2:14:23.920 --> 2:14:26.360 You know, that's a good business model as someone with 2:14:26.400 --> 2:14:32.000 a couple of goats. That does sound like the dream. Yeah. God, 2:14:32.920 --> 2:14:35.120 they don't work on all the invasive species I do. 2:14:35.600 --> 2:14:37.800 There are folks, so they probably don't eat those beetles. 2:14:37.880 --> 2:14:40.520 Huh No. No. They also don't like plants with thorns 2:14:40.560 --> 2:14:44.080 on them either, and it's very few goats can handle 2:14:44.120 --> 2:14:47.680 an entire French person either. So yeah, we can't. We 2:14:47.720 --> 2:14:49.960 can't trust the goats to solve all these problems for us. 2:14:50.000 --> 2:14:53.440 It is nice that they're helping. Um, I don't know, 2:14:53.520 --> 2:14:58.720 so I try to Are there things either in terms 2:14:58.760 --> 2:15:01.200 of like it acts people gonna take, or probably more 2:15:01.280 --> 2:15:04.520 more realistically, organizations people could support that you think are 2:15:04.560 --> 2:15:09.480 actually helping try to stop as much of the woods 2:15:09.520 --> 2:15:12.720 from going bad as fast or reverse the some of 2:15:12.720 --> 2:15:14.480 the stuff we've been talking about today, like how can 2:15:14.640 --> 2:15:17.560 we try to have some some room for people to 2:15:18.000 --> 2:15:20.480 do something, if if there is anything people can do 2:15:20.640 --> 2:15:23.120 other than check your fucking shoes for beatles when you 2:15:23.160 --> 2:15:26.960 come back from wherever, burn all of your clothing anytime 2:15:27.000 --> 2:15:30.200 you leave the state. Okay, that's that's a good start. 2:15:30.280 --> 2:15:32.160 That's a really good start. Not even to say sometimes 2:15:32.160 --> 2:15:35.360 it's the county to stop. When you go on a 2:15:35.440 --> 2:15:37.680 road trip, you stop your car at the county line 2:15:37.680 --> 2:15:40.440 and you roll it off of a cliff with tanner 2:15:40.480 --> 2:15:43.000 righte and just let it burn. But don't don't push 2:15:43.000 --> 2:15:44.600 out of the woods. We've seen that. How not into 2:15:44.640 --> 2:15:49.000 the woods? Now into the ocean where everything's fine? Yeah, 2:15:49.200 --> 2:15:52.280 they say, that's what they say about the ocean great. 2:15:52.880 --> 2:15:55.520 I don't think I work between the farfield and the stream. 2:15:55.520 --> 2:15:57.920 I don't do stream or water stuffers's chemistry in there, 2:15:57.920 --> 2:15:59.960 So I don't know what happens over there. That's fine. 2:16:00.520 --> 2:16:03.120 I assume everything is great there. It does seem to 2:16:03.160 --> 2:16:07.600 be going fine. Yah um. I think the best thing 2:16:07.640 --> 2:16:09.800 that you could do is in individuals, is don't cut 2:16:09.960 --> 2:16:13.400 random stuff loose, learn the plants of your area, learn 2:16:13.480 --> 2:16:16.200 what's around you and what should be there, and like 2:16:16.360 --> 2:16:18.320 when you see something that shouldn't be there and you 2:16:18.480 --> 2:16:22.440 know it's in invasive, remove it. We're legally possible. Obviously, 2:16:22.440 --> 2:16:24.760 don't go into like someone's like arboretum and it's like 2:16:24.800 --> 2:16:28.240 slight pulling plants out. That'd be real bad, burned down 2:16:28.320 --> 2:16:34.400 small farms wherever you find. Yeah, oh man, the egg 2:16:34.440 --> 2:16:36.760 people will not be happy about that. But yeah, I mean, 2:16:37.840 --> 2:16:40.280 I'm not gonna say anything. Um So I think, you know, 2:16:40.360 --> 2:16:44.400 learned plants trees is neat um. And then if you, um, 2:16:44.680 --> 2:16:46.880 you know, think of if you're thinking about, like, you know, 2:16:47.040 --> 2:16:49.000 how can you help manage force? You know, if you 2:16:49.400 --> 2:16:51.800 lots of people either own forces or people who own 2:16:51.840 --> 2:16:54.640 force and you know, encourage them to get a force 2:16:54.680 --> 2:16:56.879 management plan or land management plan and get that. And 2:16:56.879 --> 2:16:59.240 then also if you got a lawn, rip your lawn 2:16:59.280 --> 2:17:03.400 out again where possible and use native plants. I do. 2:17:03.520 --> 2:17:06.040 I do some you know some lawn change stuff. And 2:17:06.120 --> 2:17:08.160 it's just frustrating the amount of lawns out there. It's like, 2:17:08.320 --> 2:17:09.560 you know, one of these people. One of these reasons 2:17:09.560 --> 2:17:12.000 we're losing so many you know, birds and we have 2:17:12.080 --> 2:17:15.119 fewer birds and bird species because like they can't eat grass. 2:17:16.000 --> 2:17:19.120 These things eat fruits and insects and seeds which you 2:17:19.200 --> 2:17:22.120 don't get in grass. So you know, if you don't 2:17:22.120 --> 2:17:25.440 own a force, that's fine, And I'm I'm a huge 2:17:25.480 --> 2:17:26.960 advocate of that. I try to be on the show 2:17:26.959 --> 2:17:28.720 and people, again, we always get this thing where there 2:17:28.720 --> 2:17:30.560 are people who will critique when we talk about some 2:17:30.560 --> 2:17:33.320 of these small scale solutions. Is like, oh, you know, 2:17:33.400 --> 2:17:37.680 turning your turning your lawn into a hermac culture garden 2:17:37.720 --> 2:17:40.200 with local species isn't going to like produce enough food 2:17:40.240 --> 2:17:42.320 to feed your families. Like, no, it's not about that. 2:17:42.640 --> 2:17:45.400 If you could get a couple of thousand people to 2:17:45.400 --> 2:17:47.560 do it, and they convince another couple and like so 2:17:47.640 --> 2:17:49.760 on and so on and so on, then suddenly, if 2:17:49.800 --> 2:17:53.200 you're increasing significantly the amount of carbon sequestered by that 2:17:53.320 --> 2:17:55.880 lawn and you're also making a better habitat for birds 2:17:55.879 --> 2:17:58.720 and whatnot, that that scales. That is a thing that 2:17:58.760 --> 2:18:00.960 scales if we got a single nificant number of people 2:18:01.000 --> 2:18:04.039 with lawns to replace them with something like we're talking 2:18:04.040 --> 2:18:07.360 about kill kill that grass that almost certainly isn't fucking 2:18:07.400 --> 2:18:10.199 native to your area. Plant stuff that is and and 2:18:10.200 --> 2:18:13.360 and try to reintegrate at least your lawn back into 2:18:13.360 --> 2:18:16.920 the local ecology. If you got a million Americans to 2:18:16.959 --> 2:18:22.560 do a version of that, you that's not an insignificant thing. Um. Yeah, 2:18:22.600 --> 2:18:25.120 And it is something that you can do in a 2:18:25.120 --> 2:18:27.640 lot of states, there's programs to support it. In my state, 2:18:27.640 --> 2:18:31.240 there's a program specifically for like changing lawns over and 2:18:31.360 --> 2:18:33.960 that program is backed up there out of money until 2:18:35.040 --> 2:18:39.039 they spent it all already. There's definitely interest there them 2:18:39.040 --> 2:18:41.880 a thirty five. Let you sell it to whoever, whoever, 2:18:42.080 --> 2:18:44.280 anyone gets it if they want it, it just goes 2:18:44.360 --> 2:18:47.680 up on Craigslist, all right, Yeah, put it on Craigslist. Yeah, 2:18:47.760 --> 2:18:50.840 give it to the highest bidder. Yeah. Um. The other 2:18:50.840 --> 2:18:52.720 thing you can do is go outside, like support your 2:18:52.840 --> 2:18:55.879 local land management agency. Most of these, like forest Service 2:18:55.879 --> 2:18:59.600 and park Service, they depend on money spent by users 2:19:00.080 --> 2:19:03.119 to go spend money at the forest. The other thing 2:19:03.120 --> 2:19:05.959 people can do your fucking boots first though. Oh yeah, 2:19:05.959 --> 2:19:08.800 definitely that. And don't don't bring shit in. Don't don't 2:19:08.840 --> 2:19:11.800 bring your like weird thing in, like your weird plant, 2:19:11.840 --> 2:19:14.400 because you don't want to kill it. Your entirely seed 2:19:14.400 --> 2:19:20.080 based diet. Yeah, if you don't, If you hunt, great, 2:19:20.200 --> 2:19:22.840 that supports conservation. If you don't want to hunt, you 2:19:22.920 --> 2:19:24.760 can still buy duck stamps and these other things that 2:19:24.920 --> 2:19:30.240 support wildlife management. In the US, wildlife is funded by 2:19:30.280 --> 2:19:32.480 the users, So those people who buy guns and AMMO, 2:19:32.879 --> 2:19:35.120 you buy arch your equipment, and who buy hunting licenses. 2:19:35.120 --> 2:19:37.360 So if you want to support wildlife, the best thing 2:19:37.400 --> 2:19:39.040 you can do is buy a hunting license, even if 2:19:39.080 --> 2:19:43.520 you don't hunt. That's it's kind of countertuitive, but it's 2:19:43.600 --> 2:19:46.720 the core of the North American mode of wildlife. Yeah. Yeah, 2:19:46.760 --> 2:19:48.240 that's a really good point, and it is one of 2:19:48.320 --> 2:19:50.039 the It's also one of those areas when we talk 2:19:50.040 --> 2:19:54.240 about ways in which theoretically there's room to build in 2:19:54.400 --> 2:19:58.000 roads between left and right in this country, conservation and 2:19:58.080 --> 2:20:00.920 hunting should be one right. And there are hunters on 2:20:00.959 --> 2:20:03.480 the right who are actually talking a pretty good, like 2:20:03.720 --> 2:20:07.240 reasonably about conservation, Like it is an area of shared interest. 2:20:07.320 --> 2:20:11.160 Everybody likes wild places, so quote unquote wild We just 2:20:11.200 --> 2:20:13.440 talked about how none of them are actually wild. They've 2:20:13.440 --> 2:20:15.879 all existed with human beings for forever. But like, yeah, 2:20:15.959 --> 2:20:20.160 we like we like the outdoors, yes, the outdoors. Yeah, well, 2:20:20.200 --> 2:20:22.520 and what you know, people have been like, so I hunt, 2:20:22.560 --> 2:20:27.760 I have my cross blows right over there. Crossbow. Yeah, 2:20:27.760 --> 2:20:32.520 you don't have to get a gun. I have been 2:20:32.520 --> 2:20:34.800 wanting to get a crossbow pilled for a while now. 2:20:35.360 --> 2:20:39.760 Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind getting crossbow pilled myself. Shoulder 2:20:39.840 --> 2:20:48.720 holster for a crossbow. There we go. Oh yeah, that's great. Yeah. No, 2:20:48.879 --> 2:20:51.240 this is not a super expensive one, but it's pretty 2:20:51.320 --> 2:20:54.400 much a rifle. Yeah, I mean ballistically at the ranges 2:20:54.440 --> 2:20:57.960 who use them, there's not any meaningful difference really. Yeah. 2:20:58.080 --> 2:21:00.080 And if you're a person who you know doesn't like it, 2:21:00.080 --> 2:21:04.080 doesn't trust yourself around him, uh, they're very safe. So yeah, 2:21:04.160 --> 2:21:05.760 get get you one of those if you want. It's 2:21:05.760 --> 2:21:08.280 a fun time across. I also like it a lot 2:21:08.320 --> 2:21:13.200 more than my uh my guns because it doesn't yet recoil. 2:21:13.920 --> 2:21:16.840 But that's enough about that. Well that's great. Um, is 2:21:16.840 --> 2:21:18.800 there anything else you wanted to get into Calvin before 2:21:18.800 --> 2:21:22.400 we kind of roll out today? Uh? You touched on 2:21:22.480 --> 2:21:25.160 forest carbon stuff. That's a whole man a bunch of 2:21:25.160 --> 2:21:28.240 stuff on that. That's a whole other world. I am 2:21:28.280 --> 2:21:30.520 interested in talking more about that. But perhaps we should 2:21:30.560 --> 2:21:34.280 do have a dedicated entire thing. I mean, we should 2:21:34.320 --> 2:21:36.959 definitely dedicate an entire thing that it's an incredibly important 2:21:37.000 --> 2:21:39.600 subject UM and I think there's a lot to say 2:21:39.600 --> 2:21:42.440 about how different Um indigenous groups have been. Like up 2:21:42.440 --> 2:21:44.480 in the Northwest in particular, we have a lot of 2:21:44.720 --> 2:21:47.360 um kind of tribal efforts at stuff like not just 2:21:47.440 --> 2:21:49.080 with the with the forest, but also with like the 2:21:49.080 --> 2:21:52.199 coastline and whatnot in rebuilding certain populations along the coast. 2:21:53.200 --> 2:21:55.800 In the Midwest, Phenombera does a great job with forest management. 2:21:55.879 --> 2:21:58.320 I'm actually doing a webinar thing about one of our 2:21:58.360 --> 2:22:01.080 forest passing we're having done come talk about their management. Well, 2:22:01.080 --> 2:22:02.840 we invited them. I'm not actually sure if they're gonna 2:22:02.879 --> 2:22:04.680 do it yet, but the practice we use is based 2:22:04.680 --> 2:22:06.879 on what they use it there. So yeah, it's it's 2:22:06.920 --> 2:22:11.840 really cool what various first nations do. Yeah, I just 2:22:11.879 --> 2:22:17.240 want to plug trees. Yeah, my favorite type of tree 2:22:17.920 --> 2:22:20.240 probably the redwood. Used to live in Arcade to go 2:22:20.360 --> 2:22:22.600 running in them every day. Um, I know that's kind 2:22:22.600 --> 2:22:24.680 of a cliche answer, what's your what's your favorite tree? 2:22:25.320 --> 2:22:27.280 This is one behind me here, no one can see 2:22:27.320 --> 2:22:30.800 my background. It's white oak. You can't make white oaks. 2:22:30.840 --> 2:22:34.480 So yeah, yeah, that is an impolittant tree. Forest products 2:22:34.480 --> 2:22:36.440 are like one of the only things that supports supports 2:22:36.480 --> 2:22:39.160 forest management. So it supports forest so it don't be 2:22:39.200 --> 2:22:42.879 afraid to use, you know, sustainably managed wood and wood products. 2:22:44.240 --> 2:22:49.280 Finding capitalism and drink a shipload of bourbon always a 2:22:49.280 --> 2:22:54.840 good call. Really, Um, alright, well, Calvin Norman, any any 2:22:54.920 --> 2:22:59.160 less pluggable to plug? Um? Plants? Uh? If you want 2:22:59.160 --> 2:23:01.720 to learn plants, that's great. You want to learn about 2:23:01.720 --> 2:23:03.680 what's going on your native you know your areas around you. 2:23:03.680 --> 2:23:06.160 There's lots of groups that do that. Your local extension 2:23:06.160 --> 2:23:08.120 service helps you out with a lot that most of 2:23:08.120 --> 2:23:11.480 their stuff free. So plug that. Yeah, go outside and 2:23:11.520 --> 2:23:16.039 plug that. I don't do twitter good. Yeah, all right, well, 2:23:16.360 --> 2:23:20.240 go outside, hugg a tree. Calvin Norman, thank you again 2:23:20.360 --> 2:23:22.600 so much for coming on. Um. If you want to 2:23:22.600 --> 2:23:26.520 see Calvin's original thread, just type in the woods are bad, uh, 2:23:26.520 --> 2:23:29.200 and it could happen here read it, or just go 2:23:29.240 --> 2:23:30.840 to the it could happen here, read it and scroll 2:23:30.879 --> 2:23:33.760 down a bit you'll find it. Um. That's gonna do 2:23:33.800 --> 2:23:37.920 it for us today until tomorrow. Go out into the woods. 2:23:38.200 --> 2:23:40.680 Who out into the woods, wash your fucking boots first. 2:23:48.680 --> 2:23:52.080 What grows in the forest trees. Sure you know what 2:23:52.200 --> 2:23:55.959 else grows in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, 2:23:56.320 --> 2:23:59.560 and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect 2:23:59.560 --> 2:24:06.240 from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. 2:24:06.959 --> 2:24:09.840 The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest 2:24:09.959 --> 2:24:13.480 near you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org, 2:24:13.800 --> 2:24:16.360 brought to you by the United States Forest Service and 2:24:16.440 --> 2:24:27.680 the AD Council. It could happen. Here is the podcast 2:24:27.800 --> 2:24:31.480 you're listening to with your ears or perhaps other parts 2:24:31.520 --> 2:24:34.280 of your body if you have, I don't know, some 2:24:34.720 --> 2:24:39.039 bizarre form of synesthesia that causes you to taste sound. Um, 2:24:39.040 --> 2:24:42.800 maybe you're tasting us right now. In which case, UM, 2:24:42.840 --> 2:24:46.200 I'm gonna open up the flavor bouquet by introducing my 2:24:46.280 --> 2:24:50.520 co host Garrison UM and our guest for today. Why 2:24:50.560 --> 2:24:53.199 don't you take over now, Garrison, I've done my job great. 2:24:53.440 --> 2:24:57.199 That sounds lovely. Yeah, hey, Garrison, here could happen. Here 2:24:57.240 --> 2:25:00.600 is the podcast. We have a special guest today. UH 2:25:00.680 --> 2:25:05.240 journalist and researcher W. F. Thomas. Hello, Hello, it's so 2:25:05.280 --> 2:25:07.920 good to be here on Behind the Woman's Revolution, The 2:25:07.920 --> 2:25:12.560 Police Insurrection Daily. Thank thank you lovely to have you. UM. 2:25:12.560 --> 2:25:15.840 A lot of people say Garrison's voice tastes like sorbet 2:25:16.080 --> 2:25:20.039 by the way, so comment we get a lot, a lot, 2:25:20.160 --> 2:25:21.800 lot of a lot of a lot of those d M. 2:25:21.920 --> 2:25:27.040 S Um, you surprised off that. Um, So we're gonna 2:25:27.040 --> 2:25:29.720 be talking about something I've wanted to actually bring up 2:25:29.760 --> 2:25:32.640 myself for a while now, but I just have not 2:25:32.640 --> 2:25:34.840 put it the work in And now luckily someone else 2:25:34.840 --> 2:25:37.000 did the actual work, so we know we could just 2:25:37.040 --> 2:25:42.599 talk about it. We're talking about something called a disclosed TV, um, 2:25:42.640 --> 2:25:45.440 which is a broad range of things. It's not it's 2:25:45.480 --> 2:25:49.120 not just one thing. Uh, And I guess I'll hand 2:25:49.160 --> 2:25:50.959 it over to the person who did the actual work 2:25:51.000 --> 2:25:54.000 in terms of like how how would you describe what 2:25:54.360 --> 2:25:56.959 disclosed TV is? But but like before we get into 2:25:57.000 --> 2:26:00.120 like the journey of the platform and thing like what 2:26:00.440 --> 2:26:04.120 like what is it? Yeah? Um, let me start this 2:26:04.200 --> 2:26:06.760 off by saying it already before the publication of the 2:26:06.840 --> 2:26:12.840 article been publicly threatened vaguely with legal action from disclosed TV. 2:26:13.160 --> 2:26:16.880 So that will be largely informing what I say today. 2:26:16.920 --> 2:26:20.720 But we do have a lot of receipts Um. You 2:26:20.760 --> 2:26:24.959 have very scary lawyers here, So I'm I'm I'm excited 2:26:25.040 --> 2:26:29.080 whatever happens, So feel free to say whatever you want 2:26:29.080 --> 2:26:33.400 to say. But UM, Disclosed TV markets itself and presents 2:26:33.400 --> 2:26:40.320 itself as a news aggregator UM operating Twitter, UM, Telegram, 2:26:40.560 --> 2:26:44.680 gab getter. They have a Facebook as well as well 2:26:44.720 --> 2:26:49.280 as the main site where they host what one could 2:26:49.360 --> 2:26:55.199 describe as articles as well. Yeah, and I think Disclosed 2:26:55.200 --> 2:26:59.960 TV for our purposes despite like they have a very 2:27:00.120 --> 2:27:04.039 large Facebook presence UM. But the way that we usually 2:27:04.040 --> 2:27:07.039 interact with them, and specifically like me and Robert and 2:27:07.040 --> 2:27:09.240 then other people who are like journalists orge to anti 2:27:09.240 --> 2:27:13.720 fascist researchers, usually we interact with Disclosed TV on Telegram 2:27:13.879 --> 2:27:16.680 or through Twitter, um, Twitter, through like it's how they 2:27:16.760 --> 2:27:18.640 like break a lot of current events in like a 2:27:19.280 --> 2:27:21.240 where like you know, a lot of like political figures 2:27:21.280 --> 2:27:24.600 talk about them is is Twitter, UM, and then Telegram 2:27:24.600 --> 2:27:27.119 is where they really disseminate these out into more obscure groups. 2:27:27.120 --> 2:27:28.800 And maybe they change their wording because they know the 2:27:28.840 --> 2:27:33.680 audience is a little bit different and they've been a 2:27:33.760 --> 2:27:39.640 vector of information for a while. Really really with the protests, 2:27:39.680 --> 2:27:42.320 they kind of picked up a lot of there was 2:27:43.000 --> 2:27:46.720 they were everywhere in terms of like saying specific things, 2:27:46.840 --> 2:27:50.600 not doing sourcing UM and just having like basically they 2:27:50.640 --> 2:27:53.720 are a place where they kind of create what then 2:27:54.160 --> 2:27:57.600 they try to create what the news is because of 2:27:57.879 --> 2:28:00.280 how isolated they are from the sources that they actually 2:28:00.320 --> 2:28:03.240 pull info from, and they're very they're very interested in 2:28:03.320 --> 2:28:07.160 kind of crafting their own version of events UM, which 2:28:07.280 --> 2:28:11.400 appeals to people across the spectrum. Like, they don't just 2:28:11.560 --> 2:28:14.800 market towards the far right wing. Sometimes they frame things 2:28:14.840 --> 2:28:17.960 to kind of attract of a variety of people on 2:28:18.080 --> 2:28:22.280 like the under the extremist banner, let's say. Um, So, 2:28:22.360 --> 2:28:24.720 you know, you don't just see them in far right circles. 2:28:24.879 --> 2:28:27.160 You see Disclose pop up in a lot of places 2:28:27.200 --> 2:28:31.320 because of the way they frame news and breaking events. UM. 2:28:31.360 --> 2:28:33.160 But they didn't always start out like this. This isn't 2:28:33.200 --> 2:28:35.120 what they always were. They weren't always this kind of 2:28:35.120 --> 2:28:40.040 content aggregator that creates their version of news. UM and 2:28:40.560 --> 2:28:44.360 Thomas did more research into what they were before, which 2:28:44.600 --> 2:28:48.200 I actually had not done that research yet. UM. So yeah, 2:28:48.440 --> 2:28:51.360 let's uh, let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah. 2:28:51.360 --> 2:28:53.240 So I'm gonna start off with talking about how I 2:28:53.280 --> 2:28:57.959 first heard about Disclose. UM. So I was living in 2:28:58.000 --> 2:29:01.280 Germany when the pandemic hit um and got COVID first 2:29:01.320 --> 2:29:05.200 wave in Germany in the moor march Um. Luckily I 2:29:05.200 --> 2:29:08.440 was totally asymptomatic. But I was kind of stranded in 2:29:08.440 --> 2:29:10.959 Germany for a couple of weeks, um and how to 2:29:11.000 --> 2:29:15.000 isolate in a vacation rental. And the Bavarian man who 2:29:15.000 --> 2:29:17.760 owned it just kept coming and talking to me. And 2:29:17.800 --> 2:29:20.680 I would tell him, Hey, it's probably not the best 2:29:20.720 --> 2:29:22.920 idea for you to be coming by and chatting with 2:29:22.959 --> 2:29:26.840 me all the time. And no, he got into talking, 2:29:26.879 --> 2:29:28.480 and we're talking in German. He got we got into 2:29:28.480 --> 2:29:32.360 talking about the pandemic, what he thought about it, and 2:29:32.360 --> 2:29:34.840 he started talking about how he thought, oh, the government's 2:29:34.879 --> 2:29:36.720 making this seem way worse than it is. You know, 2:29:37.280 --> 2:29:39.080 the deep state, if you know anything about that, and 2:29:39.200 --> 2:29:42.959 he and he said deep state in English. Um. And 2:29:43.040 --> 2:29:48.199 I was familiar with German farright currents at that time, UM, 2:29:48.240 --> 2:29:52.840 but I had never encountered a pilled German dude. And 2:29:52.920 --> 2:29:56.400 that's when I realized this is gonna be a fucking problem. 2:29:56.520 --> 2:30:01.039 Yeah yeah, And and it lo and behold, it has 2:30:01.040 --> 2:30:04.240 continued to be a problem. So as I got back 2:30:04.280 --> 2:30:05.879 to the U S and and the other thing when 2:30:05.920 --> 2:30:07.240 I was in Germany is the first time I taught 2:30:07.440 --> 2:30:12.240 I encountered telegram. UM when a German I knew said, hey, 2:30:12.360 --> 2:30:14.959 I I just don't trust WhatsApp because it's own by Facebook. 2:30:14.959 --> 2:30:20.280 Why don't you download Telegram In Q thousand nineteen, I think, um, 2:30:20.320 --> 2:30:24.080 and and it was pretty innocuous to me at the time. 2:30:24.120 --> 2:30:30.520 I didn't realize this would become a problem. Yeah, fast forward, UM. 2:30:30.560 --> 2:30:35.120 I was working on my master's project, which UM you 2:30:35.120 --> 2:30:37.400 can talk about more later on because it's kind of 2:30:37.480 --> 2:30:40.080 besides the point, UM if you don't want to hear 2:30:40.080 --> 2:30:43.760 about it, but looking at Telegram as the cultic milieu UM, 2:30:43.840 --> 2:30:47.560 using Colin Campbell's framework of the cultic milieu UM to 2:30:47.720 --> 2:30:52.080 understand specifically how Q and on spread in Germany and 2:30:52.160 --> 2:30:57.519 how Q and on interacted with these native underlying conspiracy 2:30:57.800 --> 2:31:02.920 narratives within Germany. UM. Because Telegram is already massively popular 2:31:02.959 --> 2:31:06.160 in Germany before after j six, I think of the 2:31:06.200 --> 2:31:08.359 band wave came down and there was much more migration 2:31:08.400 --> 2:31:12.480 to the platform. So you know, I did the social 2:31:12.520 --> 2:31:15.680 network analysis looking at the conspirat German conspiracy is seen 2:31:15.760 --> 2:31:19.000 on Telegram, and one of the biggest notes that came 2:31:19.080 --> 2:31:20.960 up and I was looking at a number of times 2:31:21.000 --> 2:31:25.640 shared into other groups or channels was disclosed TV. UM. 2:31:25.680 --> 2:31:29.200 And that's the first time I came into it. I 2:31:29.400 --> 2:31:32.840 look through it and realized, okay, they there is an 2:31:32.959 --> 2:31:38.039 editorial stance within this, UM, and that editorial stance largely 2:31:38.080 --> 2:31:44.360 attracts conspiracists and far right extremists to this coverage into 2:31:45.080 --> 2:31:48.039 you know, this is widely shared among conspiracists and far 2:31:48.120 --> 2:31:53.640 right extremists. UM. Fast forward. UM. I'm on Twitter, as 2:31:53.640 --> 2:31:56.520 many of us are, unfortunately, UM, and I saw disclosed 2:31:56.560 --> 2:31:59.800 TV just popping up everywhere, UM, even from people who 2:32:00.000 --> 2:32:03.840 who I would think should know better. Yeah, absolutely, are 2:32:04.200 --> 2:32:08.920 you know, big extremism researchers and journalists UM shared it. 2:32:08.959 --> 2:32:11.600 I remember there one specific one that really came across 2:32:11.640 --> 2:32:15.080 my feed UM. Disclosed had had taken a video from 2:32:15.120 --> 2:32:25.400 like the Blaze, Glennbex whatever about the firefighters who were 2:32:25.480 --> 2:32:29.480 quitting over vaccine mandate or something and had all of 2:32:29.560 --> 2:32:33.720 their boots or whatever. And I saw, yeah, lots of 2:32:33.720 --> 2:32:37.400 people sharing that as well. UM. And eventually I got 2:32:37.400 --> 2:32:43.920 tired of saying, hey, they should have suspect, don't share it, UM, 2:32:44.000 --> 2:32:47.080 and decided to write an article about it, so I 2:32:47.080 --> 2:32:49.640 could just send my article to people and it's really 2:32:49.680 --> 2:32:53.879 interesting what I found. Um. Disclosed tv started off in 2:32:53.920 --> 2:32:59.480 the mid two thousand's as just this forum for UFOs, 2:33:00.120 --> 2:33:05.680 paranormal stuff, cryptids, big Foot sightings, and existed in largely 2:33:05.720 --> 2:33:11.440 the same format until two thousand and twenty one. Um, 2:33:11.480 --> 2:33:14.320 there were some shifts in in the way the site 2:33:14.520 --> 2:33:18.200 presented itself. UM it was. It started off as a 2:33:18.240 --> 2:33:22.160 member loggin where members could write articles that were largely 2:33:22.200 --> 2:33:25.120 long forum forum posts and then have people comment on 2:33:25.160 --> 2:33:31.320 them and reply. Um. And at one point, Disclosed made 2:33:31.360 --> 2:33:36.840 the jump to functioning as a news aggregator while including 2:33:36.879 --> 2:33:39.800 an editorial spin on that and including some of their 2:33:39.840 --> 2:33:41.760 own articles. Do you want me to get more into 2:33:41.800 --> 2:33:47.080 that now? Yeah? Because yeah, because like the shift was 2:33:47.080 --> 2:33:49.600 was it wasn't like immediate as well, right, Like they 2:33:49.640 --> 2:33:51.640 were starting to kind of present themselves in more of 2:33:51.640 --> 2:33:56.120 a news gathering way, you know, around the late s 2:33:56.200 --> 2:33:58.760 of course, during this became a big thing in terms 2:33:58.800 --> 2:34:01.959 of their social media presence. Um, they were trying to 2:34:01.959 --> 2:34:05.560 present themselves as like a news aggregator, right, but they 2:34:05.600 --> 2:34:07.959 still operated that, but they still operated the forum on 2:34:07.959 --> 2:34:10.280 their site throughout most of that time, and it's only 2:34:10.360 --> 2:34:14.040 until recently where they shut that forum down UM, which 2:34:14.120 --> 2:34:16.560 was you know, full of full of all kinds of 2:34:16.560 --> 2:34:20.400 conspiratorial nonsense. It's very easy to see past for most people. 2:34:21.000 --> 2:34:26.400 Uh you know, secret Arctic Ship, which is yeah, it's 2:34:26.400 --> 2:34:30.640 always that's usually yeah, even in to get stuff like 2:34:31.320 --> 2:34:35.360 watch this s j W get wrecked, which which is 2:34:35.360 --> 2:34:38.120 not a quotation, but just that kind of vibe, that 2:34:38.240 --> 2:34:43.160 style of content. Yeah, going from the forum operating then 2:34:43.200 --> 2:34:45.320 with they you know, their social media accounts, to the 2:34:45.360 --> 2:34:48.000 shift this more of like presenting as a news website. 2:34:48.480 --> 2:34:50.680 Talk about that and the potential effects that we see 2:34:50.680 --> 2:34:54.080 this having on both like the social media sites and 2:34:54.160 --> 2:34:58.879 just the overall trend of news aggregation in general. I guess. Yeah. 2:34:59.000 --> 2:35:02.680 So the first big shift that I found UM was 2:35:02.720 --> 2:35:04.800 the creation of their telegram channel, which is in January 2:35:05.560 --> 2:35:10.920 one actually, so this is relatively more recently shift that 2:35:11.040 --> 2:35:18.000 happened UM, and they operated their telegram as a UM 2:35:18.040 --> 2:35:20.760 as more in this traditional news aggregator since and so 2:35:20.840 --> 2:35:23.640 that's how they really blew up on Telegram. At some 2:35:23.720 --> 2:35:26.440 point they deleted all of their old tweets UM and 2:35:26.480 --> 2:35:28.720 started operating their Twitter in a similar manner. It was 2:35:28.800 --> 2:35:36.160 after they created this telegram channel UM in September. Actually 2:35:36.200 --> 2:35:41.000 overnight on septemb they completely re rebranded the site. They 2:35:41.040 --> 2:35:45.960 took out all the user forums UM. They included backdated 2:35:46.120 --> 2:35:52.200 articles to a year prior UM and looking looking through 2:35:52.280 --> 2:35:56.640 archives of it, there was a note saying something along 2:35:56.680 --> 2:35:59.840 the lines of we have found so much growth on 2:36:00.120 --> 2:36:05.119 social media. Are growing Telegram channel, are growing Twitter account UM, 2:36:06.400 --> 2:36:09.680 and something to the effect of we we are changing 2:36:09.680 --> 2:36:14.680 our strategy and going about this a different way UM. 2:36:14.720 --> 2:36:16.520 And you can if you were into the forum, you 2:36:16.560 --> 2:36:20.760 can join our discord UM which is funked and I'll 2:36:20.760 --> 2:36:27.440 get I'll get into that later UM. And yeah, looking 2:36:27.600 --> 2:36:30.039 it was really interesting too because looking at these backdated 2:36:30.160 --> 2:36:37.360 articles UM, they included very obviously plagiarized content. UM. They 2:36:37.400 --> 2:36:40.120 had I believe it's it's all in the article, but 2:36:40.160 --> 2:36:45.840 they had four journalists UM names attached with the article 2:36:46.280 --> 2:36:55.680 using um AI generated images for their pictures. UM. And 2:36:57.920 --> 2:37:00.760 the especially the articles that they themselves pulp wished. UM. 2:37:00.800 --> 2:37:07.920 We're very focused on UFOs, paranormal paranormal phenomenon UM, as 2:37:08.040 --> 2:37:14.520 well as content that could cause skepticism within an audience 2:37:15.120 --> 2:37:18.959 UM about vaccines, and lockdowns. And I do not know 2:37:19.240 --> 2:37:23.320 the intent of U their editorial board, and so I 2:37:23.360 --> 2:37:26.920 cannot speak on that, but of course it generated this effect. Yes, 2:37:27.040 --> 2:37:30.280 that is they found a way of creating content which 2:37:30.360 --> 2:37:33.199 develops a very specific audience, which grew their numbers, which 2:37:33.280 --> 2:37:36.720 made them, you know what one could assume would make 2:37:36.720 --> 2:37:38.320 them want to make more of that content, because that 2:37:38.360 --> 2:37:41.280 makes more numbers than they can UM use that to 2:37:41.280 --> 2:37:46.600 grow their platform. UM. Yeah, specifically leading up like after 2:37:46.840 --> 2:37:50.560 after January UM ramping up when of the vaccines were 2:37:50.560 --> 2:37:52.320 coming more and more common in the States and that 2:37:52.440 --> 2:37:56.400 across the world. UM, they have seen a pretty significant 2:37:56.440 --> 2:38:02.440 growth and have changed their platform accordingly exactly. UM. So 2:38:02.920 --> 2:38:08.000 we began looking into who the who the fun owns this, 2:38:08.080 --> 2:38:14.160 what's going on with this UM. Like all German companies UM, 2:38:14.200 --> 2:38:16.560 and it is based in Germany, there's a requirement by 2:38:16.640 --> 2:38:19.280 law to include an imprint or an impress them that 2:38:19.360 --> 2:38:26.760 includes an address UM contact information for the site UM 2:38:27.040 --> 2:38:31.000 there in the company that owns it UM, a company 2:38:31.040 --> 2:38:35.840 called Future Bites operates disclosed tv UM, which describes itself 2:38:35.879 --> 2:38:40.760 as a private equity firm and media group. UM and 2:38:40.800 --> 2:38:44.160 looking into the ownership behind Future Bites is a man 2:38:44.320 --> 2:38:47.400 by the name of Uva Brown who has a pretty 2:38:47.400 --> 2:38:52.960 interesting backstory. He's hosted, He's made numerous web hosting sites. UM. 2:38:53.000 --> 2:38:56.520 I believe he created some dating sites as well, but 2:38:56.520 --> 2:39:00.920 but my research was not conclusive, so that's a maybe. UM. 2:39:00.959 --> 2:39:03.760 But eventually he sold. He had his most success when 2:39:03.800 --> 2:39:07.640 he sold one of his web hosting sites to go 2:39:07.840 --> 2:39:12.720 Daddy for a lot of money. And along the way, 2:39:13.040 --> 2:39:16.920 in his own as he described, booked a flight on 2:39:17.280 --> 2:39:19.840 virgin to go into space and see for himself if 2:39:19.879 --> 2:39:22.800 the earth, if the Earth was flat. Oh my god, 2:39:23.400 --> 2:39:27.880 awesome cool that that, this is great, thank you. So 2:39:28.000 --> 2:39:32.560 this this is who we're dealing with. Um. Sweet. And 2:39:32.800 --> 2:39:36.560 the thing about Disclosed being based in Germany, UM, that 2:39:36.560 --> 2:39:41.879 that becomes an issue, UM, is that Germany has a 2:39:42.000 --> 2:39:47.080 very different h look at free speech than in the US. UM. 2:39:47.160 --> 2:39:52.400 For example, even online displaying swastikas UM and denying the 2:39:52.440 --> 2:39:55.880 Holocaust is legal and is a prosecutable crime that can 2:39:55.920 --> 2:40:01.800 get you jail time. UM. So as we explored as 2:40:01.879 --> 2:40:05.040 I mostly and UM, there's additional reporting from Berny Piper 2:40:05.040 --> 2:40:07.920 and I'll talk a bit more about that later explored 2:40:08.800 --> 2:40:12.199 the discord and their Telegram. We realized, Hum, it seems 2:40:12.240 --> 2:40:14.959 to be a lot of Nazis here, and by which 2:40:15.000 --> 2:40:16.680 when I say seems to be a lot of Nazis, 2:40:16.680 --> 2:40:21.760 I mean people with swastikas in their profile builds UM 2:40:21.800 --> 2:40:26.120 with you know names, referencing the Holocaust with the whispers 2:40:26.160 --> 2:40:31.680 parentheses um and saying denying that the hologast happened. Um. 2:40:31.760 --> 2:40:36.160 And also sharing the neo Nazi, famous neo Nazi, infamous 2:40:36.160 --> 2:40:41.040 neo Nazi propaganda film Europa The Last Battle UM, which 2:40:41.720 --> 2:40:46.519 was shared by prominent q and on influencer ghost Ezra. Yeah. 2:40:46.560 --> 2:40:50.640 I know. Um. Oh man, this this came up a 2:40:50.640 --> 2:40:55.039 few days ago. One of the one of the channels 2:40:55.080 --> 2:40:58.840 that me and someone else have been watching, uh forwarded 2:40:58.959 --> 2:41:02.400 me being that that that film being shared at the 2:41:02.600 --> 2:41:05.040 it was it was, it was that the the Free 2:41:05.040 --> 2:41:09.360 Oregon Telegram channel was sharing links to that and I 2:41:09.760 --> 2:41:11.720 wonder I would I would like to track back where 2:41:11.720 --> 2:41:15.959 that link came from. Um. Yeah. Not not great seeing 2:41:16.000 --> 2:41:19.320 that film circulate more and more, especially among like you know, 2:41:19.480 --> 2:41:21.680 the Free Oregan Telegram channels, you know, like anti mask, 2:41:21.760 --> 2:41:26.840 Anti backs, Anti lockdown channel. Yeah, and seeing the percoloration 2:41:26.920 --> 2:41:31.879 of that type of content. Yeah, so in preparing for 2:41:31.879 --> 2:41:35.640 this article, UM, with the help of of the Logically 2:41:36.040 --> 2:41:41.760 editorial team, I'm a freelancer UM. Their current head of content, 2:41:41.920 --> 2:41:47.280 Ernie piper Um, sent an email basically asking, hey, what's 2:41:47.280 --> 2:41:49.840 going on. You all seem to have a Nazi problem 2:41:49.840 --> 2:41:55.880 that's kind of borderline illegal in Germany. UM, to which 2:41:56.840 --> 2:41:59.520 for a while, this for for about twenty four hours 2:41:59.560 --> 2:42:03.120 as closed, just went totally quiet and didn't post UM 2:42:03.200 --> 2:42:08.280 and then came out with a post specifically targeting Ernie 2:42:08.920 --> 2:42:11.920 Um by name and with a picture of him and 2:42:11.959 --> 2:42:15.600 linking to some of his old reporting work as well, 2:42:16.120 --> 2:42:20.680 UM saying yes, Uva Brown owns this. He got his 2:42:20.720 --> 2:42:23.720 money from go daddy. You know, we value free speech 2:42:23.760 --> 2:42:27.600 and we condemn hatred whatnot, and and saying, oh, our 2:42:27.640 --> 2:42:30.000 telegram we have a tell there's a telegram group, but 2:42:30.040 --> 2:42:33.240 we have these rules in it and h okay, yeah, 2:42:33.320 --> 2:42:35.960 we we had to shut down the discord that got 2:42:36.000 --> 2:42:38.879 a little bit out of hand. We admit that, you know, 2:42:38.920 --> 2:42:42.240 they had people denying the Holocaust with swastika icons in 2:42:42.280 --> 2:42:46.520 their discord that they didn't seem to care too much 2:42:46.520 --> 2:42:50.959 about until someone pointed it out. UM. And you know 2:42:50.959 --> 2:42:55.480 there's there was additionally very explicit neo Nazi content in 2:42:55.520 --> 2:42:58.080 their telegram channel as well, with the excuse oh well 2:42:58.080 --> 2:43:03.480 we're glowing growing form. We we can't moderate everything. Is 2:43:03.520 --> 2:43:05.840 well they have. They just crossed four hundred thousand in 2:43:05.840 --> 2:43:08.400 their telegram channel and I think about thirty thousand and 2:43:08.440 --> 2:43:15.760 their telegram group, um, which is frankly bullshit. Yeah that 2:43:15.959 --> 2:43:19.320 is if if my personal opinion is that if you 2:43:20.280 --> 2:43:23.840 cannot don't have the resources to moderate this space, you 2:43:23.879 --> 2:43:29.240 probably shouldn't space the space. Um. And and additionally confirming oh, okay, 2:43:29.280 --> 2:43:32.160 we we when we made our new version of the site. Yes, 2:43:32.240 --> 2:43:37.040 we backdated some articles from previous user generated content that 2:43:37.160 --> 2:43:40.400 we you know, didn't vet properly. We're trying to fix 2:43:40.480 --> 2:43:43.879 that now. They removed some of those articles, um. And 2:43:43.959 --> 2:43:49.000 that yeah, we none of the people who who are 2:43:49.040 --> 2:43:51.039 the authors of our articles are real people and they're 2:43:51.080 --> 2:43:55.200 all pen names. Um. You know. They also have or 2:43:55.200 --> 2:43:57.080 at least had a tab on their website that said 2:43:57.480 --> 2:44:00.600 right for us and looking for people to send them 2:44:00.640 --> 2:44:03.400 things and saying you know, well we will disclose your 2:44:03.400 --> 2:44:05.600 bio and link to all your social media if you 2:44:05.680 --> 2:44:08.520 write a story for us. And they're there was zero 2:44:08.560 --> 2:44:12.560 of that happening as well. So do you think that, 2:44:12.800 --> 2:44:15.280 I know, like on the rules for their telegram they 2:44:15.320 --> 2:44:18.880 have the no Nazi stuff rule. Um. Do you think 2:44:18.920 --> 2:44:21.120 they're actually trying to discourage that because they're scared of 2:44:21.200 --> 2:44:25.000 legal stuff or is that just presentorary? And they I 2:44:25.000 --> 2:44:27.120 guess you know, this is just going into speculations. So 2:44:27.160 --> 2:44:28.760 I think this might be more a question for even 2:44:28.879 --> 2:44:33.119 Robert Um in terms of, yeah, like is the anti 2:44:33.240 --> 2:44:36.160 Nazi stuff presentorary? And because it does seem to be 2:44:36.480 --> 2:44:38.640 a lot of their user base is fostering that type 2:44:38.640 --> 2:44:41.039 of thing or is you know being moved over from 2:44:41.040 --> 2:44:44.800 other similar channels, um? Because yeah, like a lot of 2:44:44.840 --> 2:44:47.440 like the amount that we see disclose, like you know, 2:44:47.640 --> 2:44:49.800 intercept with channels like you know, the Rise above Him 2:44:50.000 --> 2:44:52.760 channel UM, and a whole bunch of like eco fascist channels, 2:44:52.879 --> 2:44:55.240 and a whole bunch of channels you know, on a 2:44:55.879 --> 2:44:58.160 like a broad range of like actual like fascist topics, 2:44:58.160 --> 2:45:00.959 like people who are like into fascist theory. Um. It's 2:45:01.040 --> 2:45:05.720 quite high that like the amount that disclosed shows up. UM. 2:45:05.760 --> 2:45:07.520 And I don't know, like you could look at all 2:45:07.560 --> 2:45:10.320 their stuff saying I mean like yeah, on their rule 2:45:10.320 --> 2:45:13.760 page saying no Nazi bullshit. Um but then if you 2:45:13.800 --> 2:45:16.280 spend any amount of time looking at where they're posts 2:45:16.280 --> 2:45:19.680 are forwarded, it's almost primarily people who are self describe 2:45:19.720 --> 2:45:24.280 themselves as fascists. Um So I mean, yeah, it's hard 2:45:24.320 --> 2:45:29.359 to or Donald J. Trump Jr. Yes, yes, it expands 2:45:29.400 --> 2:45:31.120 out into a lot of you know, just like you know, 2:45:31.600 --> 2:45:36.400 American journalists suits study extremism could also share discloses stuff 2:45:36.440 --> 2:45:39.039 on Twitter, right, that is part of their thing is 2:45:39.440 --> 2:45:41.680 making that and you know that that does strengthen them 2:45:41.720 --> 2:45:44.240 because it gives them that legitimacy. So then when people 2:45:44.240 --> 2:45:45.920 point out that they have Nazi problem, like, no, that's 2:45:45.920 --> 2:45:48.600 not us, that's just some of our users who are 2:45:48.600 --> 2:45:52.519 trolling or you know whatever whatever bullshit they want to say. 2:45:52.720 --> 2:45:55.560 Um So, I guess, like how I guess the real 2:45:55.600 --> 2:45:58.840 way to frame this is like how often have you 2:45:59.000 --> 2:46:02.560 seen Nazi stuff associated with the disclose with the disclosed 2:46:02.560 --> 2:46:05.280 TV brand? Because that's the one thing we actually can measure, right, 2:46:05.280 --> 2:46:07.600 we can't measure their intentions, but we can measure how 2:46:07.640 --> 2:46:11.280 often this stuff happens. Yeah, I mean that's always like 2:46:11.360 --> 2:46:14.240 the best way to measure that kind of thing, rather 2:46:14.280 --> 2:46:18.480 than just sort of like making the allegation listing like 2:46:18.879 --> 2:46:20.720 we find it in this many channels, we see it 2:46:20.760 --> 2:46:23.879 shared in these areas. It's being discussed by these people 2:46:23.920 --> 2:46:27.840 and like like that that's I think always kind of 2:46:27.879 --> 2:46:30.760 how you actually build these these sort of networks is 2:46:30.800 --> 2:46:34.520 by looking at what is actually spreading where like that's 2:46:34.720 --> 2:46:37.959 that it is thankfully something that you can measure pretty objectively, 2:46:38.440 --> 2:46:40.640 and like they are fostering it with the amount of 2:46:41.120 --> 2:46:43.320 stuff they talk about like George Soros and you know, 2:46:43.360 --> 2:46:45.480 the amount of stuff that they like. The way they 2:46:45.600 --> 2:46:50.640 frame breaking news is has that editorial bent where it's 2:46:50.760 --> 2:46:53.440 very clear that it's getting pushed in a specific direction, 2:46:53.680 --> 2:46:57.360 like there's that is that is a thing that you 2:46:57.400 --> 2:47:00.360 can observe by reading the type of narrow of their 2:47:00.520 --> 2:47:05.840 weaving via how they report information. Yeah, the the topics 2:47:05.840 --> 2:47:10.760 that they choose to cover, our topics that resonate very 2:47:10.800 --> 2:47:17.000 deeply with conspiracist and with far extremist communities. Um. If 2:47:17.000 --> 2:47:20.480 I had to speculate, UM, I will say at least 2:47:20.760 --> 2:47:24.520 since the article has come out, Um, they've done a 2:47:24.560 --> 2:47:28.880 better job of moderating their telegram channel at least for now. 2:47:29.000 --> 2:47:33.360 So good job disclosed TV. No one you can't find 2:47:33.400 --> 2:47:35.760 links to Europe with the last battle there anymore, you 2:47:35.760 --> 2:47:41.800 can still find you can still find very rampant homophobia 2:47:42.120 --> 2:47:48.560 slurs um because you know they didn't they clearly auto 2:47:48.600 --> 2:47:51.600 blocked some words, but people can shorten them or use 2:47:51.640 --> 2:47:54.480 different spellings for those words to still be used in 2:47:54.520 --> 2:48:02.920 the channel. Um. There's still anti semitic um coded anti 2:48:02.920 --> 2:48:06.879 Semitic references as well, UM responding to something saying oive 2:48:06.920 --> 2:48:11.520 a for example, which is something that tends to be 2:48:11.640 --> 2:48:16.760 used by a lot of neo Nazis and anti Semites. Yeah, 2:48:16.840 --> 2:48:18.920 I mean even and if you do any amount of 2:48:18.920 --> 2:48:22.840 research on Telegram, you will you will find forward links, 2:48:23.040 --> 2:48:27.320 forwarded links to this channel all everywhere, like if it's 2:48:27.440 --> 2:48:32.200 it is, it is so massive, the footprint that they 2:48:32.240 --> 2:48:38.279 have currently in the in like the the cycle of 2:48:38.280 --> 2:48:42.879 of forwarding posts specifically on telegram. UM. And yeah, and 2:48:42.920 --> 2:48:44.800 they're they're getting a lot of traction on it because 2:48:45.000 --> 2:48:47.600 they have stuff framed in a way that's really easy 2:48:47.680 --> 2:48:51.760 for them to have those stuff like line up with 2:48:51.879 --> 2:48:56.879 the communities that promote those types of worldviews um and 2:48:56.959 --> 2:48:59.840 promote the you know, the narratives that they want to foster. 2:49:00.760 --> 2:49:05.080 So let's see, let's have another quick break, and then 2:49:05.240 --> 2:49:09.400 let's maybe talk about your big master's project, which is 2:49:09.440 --> 2:49:13.440 really interesting. Yeah, can I can? I? Can? I do it? Yeah? 2:49:13.440 --> 2:49:18.160 I do this. You know. You know what isn't telegram? Uh? 2:49:18.440 --> 2:49:21.120 Literally these ads unless we get an ad by telegram, 2:49:21.120 --> 2:49:25.120 which we are primarily sponsored by the duo Brothers. Um, 2:49:25.160 --> 2:49:29.000 but that's for a separate project. My favorite ad is 2:49:29.040 --> 2:49:31.080 the is the one where it's the kid playing and 2:49:31.120 --> 2:49:36.080 they find a gun. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. And 2:49:36.760 --> 2:49:38.920 well we are thanks to great job. Great We hope 2:49:38.920 --> 2:49:45.040 everybody enjoyed that kid finding a gun of kid firing it. Yeah. 2:49:45.160 --> 2:49:49.160 So there's one of my favorite tweets recently was like somebody, 2:49:49.200 --> 2:49:52.240 it was somebody like clipped a screen grab a news 2:49:52.320 --> 2:49:55.320 article that was like a toddler has shot someone every 2:49:55.400 --> 2:49:57.560 day in the United States for the last three years, 2:49:57.600 --> 2:50:02.600 and somebody quote tweeted and said, somebody fucking stop him. 2:50:02.640 --> 2:50:08.200 It's very good. Um. The last thing I want to 2:50:08.200 --> 2:50:11.600 talk about is just kind of why news aggregators are 2:50:11.600 --> 2:50:14.440 bad in the first place, and examples of which we've 2:50:14.480 --> 2:50:16.760 seen the past few years, and how they contribute to 2:50:16.760 --> 2:50:20.480 dis information specifically, and how they don't do sourcing for 2:50:20.480 --> 2:50:22.800 any claims and they try to make themselves a primary 2:50:22.800 --> 2:50:25.480 source even though they're not. UM and then also would 2:50:25.520 --> 2:50:31.800 love to talk about your very fancy project. So yeah, 2:50:32.000 --> 2:50:36.440 we saw a lot of news aggregators that like during 2:50:36.480 --> 2:50:40.960 the protest, specifically that that spawned and killed many a 2:50:41.040 --> 2:50:45.959 news aggregator account um, which did not help things very much. UM. 2:50:46.280 --> 2:50:48.360 And this is this is an issue that strikes across 2:50:48.360 --> 2:50:51.560 the political spectrum. Yes, I mean one of the biggest 2:50:51.600 --> 2:50:54.600 instances of that would be an account called and on 2:50:54.680 --> 2:50:59.680 cat right. That was the yeah um who you know 2:51:00.240 --> 2:51:03.400 marketed themselves towards the left wing. UM. And again I 2:51:03.440 --> 2:51:05.360 don't know what their intentionality was. They may have had 2:51:05.400 --> 2:51:07.560 their heart in the right place. I have no idea, UM, 2:51:07.640 --> 2:51:09.160 and I'm not going to speculate on that right now. 2:51:09.400 --> 2:51:14.160 But the effect that they caused was damaging to how 2:51:14.200 --> 2:51:19.080 information is disseminated, specifically in high stress events UM. You know, 2:51:19.360 --> 2:51:21.280 like for instance, the written house shooting, you know, like 2:51:21.520 --> 2:51:25.640 stuff like that. Uh, like the big accounts, the demos 2:51:25.640 --> 2:51:29.520 around that before that, yeah, before that, yes, yeah, like 2:51:29.680 --> 2:51:34.320 and the in fostering that very fast paced unverified information 2:51:34.400 --> 2:51:37.760 circulation UM that gets you know a lot of retweets 2:51:37.760 --> 2:51:39.320 it gets it gets a lot of eyeballs on it, 2:51:39.360 --> 2:51:42.640 but but it's hard. It makes it very hard to 2:51:42.680 --> 2:51:47.200 backtrack claims because they do not want to link to 2:51:47.200 --> 2:51:50.040 other accounts, because they're mostly interested in growing their own account. 2:51:50.640 --> 2:51:54.879 Um so, and I will say disclose has gotten better 2:51:54.920 --> 2:51:58.800 about linking to the sources, even if the title and 2:51:58.800 --> 2:52:02.240 the tweet don't necessarily match what is in the story 2:52:02.240 --> 2:52:05.840 they link to. Yeah, at least someone could take a 2:52:05.840 --> 2:52:09.080 different interpretation from the two. Yes. So, just like you know, 2:52:09.240 --> 2:52:12.640 news aggregation and the way intersects with disinformation and misinformation 2:52:12.920 --> 2:52:14.800 not just a problem for the far right, not just 2:52:14.840 --> 2:52:16.840 a problem for the right wing, not just a problem 2:52:16.840 --> 2:52:18.960 for liberals, not just problem for leftist This is the 2:52:18.959 --> 2:52:22.119 thing that anyone, anyone can really grasp on to um 2:52:22.160 --> 2:52:24.560 And some of it's accidental, some of it's intentional, Right, 2:52:24.600 --> 2:52:28.440 there's some some people might just do this kind of mindlessly, 2:52:28.680 --> 2:52:30.959 and some people may, you know, do this aggregation with 2:52:30.959 --> 2:52:33.320 a very specific intent in mind. So just be very 2:52:33.320 --> 2:52:36.600 careful whenever you have an account that always leads with 2:52:36.840 --> 2:52:41.160 all caps like breaking like news. Like if if you 2:52:41.160 --> 2:52:44.400 have an account that always does that, maybe maybe maybe 2:52:44.400 --> 2:52:46.560 don't take that account super seriously all the time. Maybe 2:52:46.560 --> 2:52:49.080 you should uh find other sources of info that don't 2:52:49.120 --> 2:52:52.200 always start the tweets with breaking news and all caps 2:52:52.520 --> 2:52:55.040 or advice to people if they do want something like that, 2:52:55.600 --> 2:52:59.480 find an actual news source. Yeah, there's plenty of valid 2:52:59.520 --> 2:53:04.840 criticism them to be made against, you know, these mainstream 2:53:05.000 --> 2:53:08.840 media M s M. Centrist stuff from from you know, 2:53:08.920 --> 2:53:12.240 even from the left. There's there's criticism. Um, but you 2:53:12.320 --> 2:53:15.119 have to find some way of finding your own meaning 2:53:15.160 --> 2:53:17.360 and understanding of what is going on in the world 2:53:17.360 --> 2:53:23.560 around you. I think a CNN Reuters. Yeah, And on 2:53:23.680 --> 2:53:26.440 that point, I think that is part of why I 2:53:26.440 --> 2:53:29.959 think Disclosed can succeed and or like what they did 2:53:30.000 --> 2:53:32.920 can succeed, even like when I see stuff shared on 2:53:32.959 --> 2:53:35.720 the left, even by like anarchists, because it is a 2:53:35.920 --> 2:53:38.959 not mainstream media news source, the way they can frame 2:53:39.080 --> 2:53:42.280 things of sometimes rarely will match up with like an 2:53:42.280 --> 2:53:44.760 actual anarchists views and they're like, yeah, I'm gonna share 2:53:44.760 --> 2:53:46.520 it from this thing because it does feel like an 2:53:46.560 --> 2:53:49.920 underground you know source. It doesn't. It doesn't. It's not 2:53:50.080 --> 2:53:52.520 you're not sharing a CNN article, so you feel better 2:53:52.959 --> 2:53:56.199 because instead you're sharing something that is not in the mainstream. 2:53:56.400 --> 2:53:59.640 So like I get that, I get that pull to 2:53:59.760 --> 2:54:04.120 not something that is ingenuous reading of a CNN article instead, Yeah, 2:54:04.160 --> 2:54:06.040 but instead of you're you know, it's not actually better. 2:54:06.120 --> 2:54:10.080 It's just marketing. They're just tricking you via esthetics and branding, 2:54:10.120 --> 2:54:13.640 and that's all that it is. Right, So maybe you 2:54:13.640 --> 2:54:17.119 should learn learn to see past the marketing and branding 2:54:17.120 --> 2:54:18.600 of those types of things and look at the actual 2:54:18.800 --> 2:54:23.039 content of what's being shared. What is the university project 2:54:23.120 --> 2:54:27.440 thing that has been taking up a lot of your time? Yeah, 2:54:27.480 --> 2:54:30.480 and um, so you're back in the US, and I 2:54:30.480 --> 2:54:34.560 got interested, um, especially in looking at the spread of 2:54:34.600 --> 2:54:36.920 Q and on in Germany, and that you led me 2:54:36.959 --> 2:54:41.600 down this research path, um, and brought me especially to 2:54:41.640 --> 2:54:45.640 telegram um again before it was largely used in in 2:54:46.879 --> 2:54:49.920 right wing circles in the US. Will the Nazis have 2:54:49.920 --> 2:54:53.760 have pretty regularly in the US and on telegram as well. Um. 2:54:54.879 --> 2:54:57.480 But this led me to look at this and and 2:54:57.879 --> 2:55:01.160 um especially to to look at program the context of 2:55:01.920 --> 2:55:07.160 as I mentioned, Colin Campbell's concept of the cultic bilieu, um, 2:55:07.280 --> 2:55:09.240 which I don't know if y'all have talked about that 2:55:09.560 --> 2:55:14.560 on this we have one behind the Okay, but yeah, 2:55:14.959 --> 2:55:18.440 to give a quick summary, is is the concept that 2:55:20.160 --> 2:55:22.760 there is this space and when Colin Campbell wrote that, 2:55:22.840 --> 2:55:25.800 it was in I believe the seventies. So it was 2:55:26.120 --> 2:55:32.080 a physical space where people go to find these rejected narratives, 2:55:32.120 --> 2:55:34.720 you know, reject the idea of rejected knowledge, and they 2:55:34.720 --> 2:55:37.520 go to seek this kind of knowledge and and and 2:55:37.640 --> 2:55:40.320 these things. UM. So he's talking about things like UFO 2:55:40.480 --> 2:55:46.240 conferences or or meet ups, or or alternative bookstores, or 2:55:46.360 --> 2:55:49.640 perhaps maybe signing up at an institute to get a 2:55:49.680 --> 2:55:57.280 degree in metaphysics. Yeah, as what a weirdly specific example gears. Yeah, sorry, 2:55:57.440 --> 2:56:00.640 does red the red of thought? Yeah? Anyway, how's that going, 2:56:00.680 --> 2:56:05.920 by the way, Garrison, it's going good, good. Yeah. And 2:56:05.920 --> 2:56:10.120 and what you find is is people can very easily 2:56:10.160 --> 2:56:16.920 move between ideologies UM. And as they move between ideologies, concepts, 2:56:16.920 --> 2:56:20.600 specific schools, they cross pollinate these schools UM. And this 2:56:20.640 --> 2:56:24.359 is how you get these kind of highly syncretic movements 2:56:24.400 --> 2:56:28.800 like Q and on UM, like the modern conspiracy movement, 2:56:29.280 --> 2:56:33.000 which is incredibly syncretic, and UM some of the other 2:56:33.400 --> 2:56:36.120 really bad ones that are out there as well that 2:56:36.200 --> 2:56:40.600 combine these different views. UM. Specifically, when you start, when 2:56:40.640 --> 2:56:43.240 you start combining this type of like cultural mysticism with 2:56:43.320 --> 2:56:48.560 politics often you can have very volatile results. Yes, exactly, 2:56:49.280 --> 2:56:54.600 can you think of any examples? I mean, in some 2:56:54.760 --> 2:56:56.800 ways the modern eco fascist movement is built on a 2:56:56.800 --> 2:56:58.400 lot of this type of stuff, so that that would 2:56:58.440 --> 2:57:01.240 be the easiest, That would be the easiest. The I 2:57:01.240 --> 2:57:03.680 think that the syncretism of because I think a lot 2:57:03.680 --> 2:57:06.320 of people have been surprised to see like you know, 2:57:06.520 --> 2:57:10.560 kind of like natural medicine and and what not subcultures 2:57:10.560 --> 2:57:14.080 and eight like alien subcultures kind of colliding with Q 2:57:14.320 --> 2:57:17.520 and on and and these like more like far right 2:57:18.080 --> 2:57:20.200 neo Nazi type groups, and the fact that there are 2:57:20.240 --> 2:57:22.840 all of these things that were associated for years kind 2:57:22.840 --> 2:57:26.520 of more with the left have been increasingly um pulled 2:57:26.600 --> 2:57:31.359 into this this sort of um weather system of conspiratorial 2:57:31.400 --> 2:57:33.080 thinking has been surprising to a lot of people who 2:57:33.120 --> 2:57:35.400 don't understand this stuff. But it makes total sense if 2:57:35.440 --> 2:57:39.080 you if you have been paying attention to the scholarship 2:57:39.200 --> 2:57:42.480 on on what is actually like how cults sort of 2:57:42.480 --> 2:57:45.800 form like it's it's it's um. It's like a weather 2:57:45.879 --> 2:57:48.200 pattern that's been building for quite a while. There's a 2:57:48.240 --> 2:57:52.039 gravity to it that sucks um everything in together and 2:57:52.120 --> 2:57:57.360 at all kind of it's as you said, syncretic um. 2:57:55.920 --> 2:57:58.760 It's not to get into horseshoe through, but this is 2:57:58.760 --> 2:58:01.240 even how you get some of that cross over, right. Yes, yeah, 2:58:01.240 --> 2:58:02.680 that was that was That was what I was just 2:58:02.680 --> 2:58:04.440 going to mention. Is that even a lot of like 2:58:04.480 --> 2:58:06.720 the left wing authors or you know, post left wing 2:58:06.720 --> 2:58:10.560 authors who got into this like cultural mysticism. Um. You 2:58:10.640 --> 2:58:14.119 see their texts now getting shared by like like open fascists. 2:58:14.160 --> 2:58:18.000 Even though these authors were anti fascist, um, they are 2:58:18.040 --> 2:58:20.240 able to still pick and choose what parts they're writing 2:58:20.240 --> 2:58:23.439 to appropriate because some of it can kind of synchronize 2:58:24.760 --> 2:58:28.440 them at from opposite ends a very long time. Like 2:58:28.480 --> 2:58:30.320 if you we've we talked about in our Gabriel the 2:58:30.400 --> 2:58:33.240 Nunzio episodes Fume, which was this kind of like we're 2:58:33.879 --> 2:58:37.480 a large chunk of like the fascist intellectual movement got 2:58:37.560 --> 2:58:40.440 started um in the post World War One period, but 2:58:40.480 --> 2:58:42.440 also there were like a ton of anarchists and a 2:58:42.440 --> 2:58:46.440 lot of like left wing um like thought leaders and whatnot. 2:58:46.440 --> 2:58:48.440 We're kind of all it was again kind of there 2:58:48.440 --> 2:58:51.320 there was this kind of like gravity center that pulled 2:58:51.360 --> 2:58:56.199 everything in and it all started churning together and um yeah, 2:58:56.200 --> 2:59:00.600 we're we're we're we're seeing that happen now. Um, and 2:59:01.400 --> 2:59:05.320 it sucks. That's that's that's great. To jump back to Cample. 2:59:05.360 --> 2:59:07.040 That's one of those examples of those physical space of 2:59:07.040 --> 2:59:11.039 the call and that call Campbell was talking about, right, Um, 2:59:11.040 --> 2:59:13.520 where it's it's any place that ideas that are rejected 2:59:13.560 --> 2:59:17.920 by you know, the orthodox kind of the establishment. There 2:59:18.040 --> 2:59:21.119 is overlap. There is not necessarily ideological overlap, but there 2:59:21.200 --> 2:59:23.879 is an interplay between them as people move between them 2:59:23.879 --> 2:59:26.720 and as these ideas come into collision with one another. 2:59:27.360 --> 2:59:32.199 Um and with the Internet, right, whole different fucking ball game. 2:59:32.840 --> 2:59:39.959 Um yeah, because that space is now everywhere exactly and 2:59:39.959 --> 2:59:44.200 and telegram specifically has these specific affordances that make it 2:59:44.320 --> 2:59:49.240 ideal for having this soup of bullshit on it as well. Um, 2:59:49.280 --> 2:59:53.199 it's it's additionally one of and this may be changing. 2:59:53.200 --> 2:59:55.600 There's a lot of discussion going on about this, especially 2:59:55.680 --> 2:59:58.400 within the German government, who could actually they already have 2:59:58.440 --> 3:00:00.840 a law that they could use to say, hey, you 3:00:00.840 --> 3:00:03.199 can't have Nazis on you can't have this Nazi ship 3:00:03.760 --> 3:00:07.680 in telegram. Um. But telegram is one of these last 3:00:07.680 --> 3:00:11.279 places where where things are largely allowed to spread without 3:00:11.400 --> 3:00:16.160 any kind of interruption, right, um, which I do think 3:00:16.200 --> 3:00:19.160 you know you look at Telegram is used in in um, 3:00:19.280 --> 3:00:22.039 the Hong Kong uprising as well, it was used for 3:00:22.840 --> 3:00:25.600 it was used in the George Yeah, that George Floyd 3:00:26.160 --> 3:00:29.520 uprising as well. Um, and it's the same things that 3:00:30.560 --> 3:00:33.640 people too at time is fake, um, bolish line of 3:00:33.640 --> 3:00:39.400 your time. Um, but shooting your clock, shoot the fucking clock. 3:00:39.520 --> 3:00:44.240 But okay, let's get back to the topic. Yeah, but 3:00:44.240 --> 3:00:46.640 but but but drumming back into this Telegram markets itself, 3:00:46.720 --> 3:00:50.400 is this very secure platform. It's probably not right. It 3:00:50.480 --> 3:00:53.920 does have it's certainly not absolutely not. It does have 3:00:54.280 --> 3:00:57.000 it does have encrypted chats, but that's only for one 3:00:57.040 --> 3:01:00.320 to one messaging between people. And even then you need 3:01:00.360 --> 3:01:02.440 to go and make you sure that security settings right. 3:01:02.480 --> 3:01:06.240 And again I I don't fully trust that. Yeah, I 3:01:06.240 --> 3:01:15.240 don't fully try. I mean signal is about barely trust signal. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 3:01:15.280 --> 3:01:18.640 I trust conversations. When everyone has put their phone inside 3:01:18.640 --> 3:01:21.080 a Faraday bag in a house and then we walked 3:01:21.120 --> 3:01:24.119 two miles into we walked two miles into the woods, 3:01:24.160 --> 3:01:28.240 then you can have a conversation. Yeah, um, but tell 3:01:28.240 --> 3:01:30.840 grand market itself is a very secure app, right UM, 3:01:31.640 --> 3:01:33.760 which is which is largely marketing. You know, it's it's 3:01:33.760 --> 3:01:35.640 appeal is that it's not what's app, it's not owned 3:01:35.680 --> 3:01:38.959 by Facebook. It's probably worth acknowledging that for because it's 3:01:38.959 --> 3:01:41.720 also very popular with a lot of people in UM 3:01:41.800 --> 3:01:43.920 you know, parts of the Global South and countries with 3:01:43.920 --> 3:01:46.360 authoritarian governments, and it is has been used for a 3:01:46.440 --> 3:01:49.680 lot of organizing. It can be more secure and all 3:01:49.920 --> 3:01:55.240 more secure but also more able than what than any 3:01:55.240 --> 3:01:57.640 other tool people have access to. I mean in Syria 3:01:57.760 --> 3:02:01.480 it's like it's again extremely and for like neighbors, like 3:02:01.520 --> 3:02:04.240 neighborhoods and towns will have like Telegram groups for this 3:02:04.280 --> 3:02:06.560 little village where they a lot of stuff gets done 3:02:06.600 --> 3:02:09.440 over Telegram in places like that, and telegram sits in 3:02:09.480 --> 3:02:13.640 this interesting space between social media. UM. It's not a 3:02:13.640 --> 3:02:15.480 full on social media site, but it's also not just 3:02:15.600 --> 3:02:19.920 a messaging Applegram. It's kind of to categorize. It is 3:02:19.920 --> 3:02:23.040 an interesting sort of like in between type thing. Yeah, 3:02:23.040 --> 3:02:27.080 because you can have essentially unlimited I think the number 3:02:27.120 --> 3:02:29.440 is in the hundreds of thousands for how many people 3:02:29.480 --> 3:02:33.879 can join a group message UM on Telegram. And you 3:02:33.920 --> 3:02:37.240 also have these one way messaging thing called channels where 3:02:37.320 --> 3:02:39.160 where one person or group of people can send out 3:02:39.160 --> 3:02:45.640 messages that appear alongside everyone else's message feed as well. UM, 3:02:45.680 --> 3:02:48.000 and that can you can also enable comments on that UM, 3:02:48.000 --> 3:02:50.879 which I'll get into and a second UM. But but 3:02:51.000 --> 3:02:53.800 it's a great way to share information as well. What 3:02:53.920 --> 3:02:57.320 I was specifically looking at is the forwarding of messages, 3:02:57.320 --> 3:02:59.360 because you you can forward a message from this one 3:02:59.440 --> 3:03:02.720 channel into whatever group chat you're in, and it links 3:03:02.760 --> 3:03:05.160 back to that channel. And I was interested in saying, 3:03:05.840 --> 3:03:08.360 how far you know, what connections can we make from this? 3:03:08.440 --> 3:03:12.560 What kind of zigzagging can we find? UM enhancer is 3:03:12.600 --> 3:03:18.440 sucking a lot UM where where someone may may use 3:03:18.560 --> 3:03:22.040 telegram for for example, a neighborhood group message right, and 3:03:22.080 --> 3:03:25.560 then someone forwards a messages a message for this channel 3:03:25.959 --> 3:03:28.840 UM or for this other group message UM where they 3:03:28.879 --> 3:03:31.879 talk about, oh, here's kind of help practices to use, 3:03:31.920 --> 3:03:35.720 and then you get into the pseudo science of things 3:03:35.720 --> 3:03:38.840 crossing into further messages from what's forward forward groups and 3:03:38.879 --> 3:03:41.520 channels from what's forwarded into that group and channel, and 3:03:41.520 --> 3:03:44.240 so on so on until you get to the neo nazis. Eventually, 3:03:44.840 --> 3:03:47.880 UM and it's also it is it is a concerted 3:03:47.959 --> 3:03:52.240 effort on the part of people pushing their ideology, who 3:03:52.280 --> 3:03:56.320 will go in the comments of these giant channels and say, hey, 3:03:56.560 --> 3:04:01.720 check out my channel. Um, what's not a real one? 3:04:01.840 --> 3:04:05.400 You know Ariyan cooking, which is probably a channel, but 3:04:05.440 --> 3:04:10.160 it probably is. Yeah, great job checking. Sorry, but check 3:04:10.160 --> 3:04:12.640 out check out, check out, check out this or whatever. 3:04:12.800 --> 3:04:16.720 And and especially when q and on moved on, a 3:04:16.760 --> 3:04:23.160 lot of promoters. Um, there there was organized groups of 3:04:23.160 --> 3:04:25.920 of Internet neo Nazis going on and trying to pill 3:04:25.959 --> 3:04:30.560 boomers into neo Nazism. And there because of the because 3:04:30.600 --> 3:04:32.959 of the mesh like network of Telegram, they try to 3:04:33.040 --> 3:04:36.840 make those meshes connect via dissemination. Right you can. You know, 3:04:36.840 --> 3:04:39.520 people who are dedicated to these more esoteric groups can 3:04:39.640 --> 3:04:43.480 join more regular like Marga groups or qut on groups 3:04:43.760 --> 3:04:47.280 and start slowly bringing links to the start doing links 3:04:47.280 --> 3:04:51.879 and forwarding to the more extreme channels. Um and eventually yeah, 3:04:51.879 --> 3:04:53.760 that does that does work. It can be a slow, 3:04:53.800 --> 3:04:57.199 careful process um or it can be very fast and 3:04:57.720 --> 3:05:01.720 like bombastic. And it'll depending on the person. One of 3:05:01.720 --> 3:05:04.720 them will latch onto one one to watch onto the other. Yeah. 3:05:04.760 --> 3:05:08.720 And and before the article came out. UM, what I 3:05:08.720 --> 3:05:12.720 did see was the specific thing of accounts that I 3:05:12.720 --> 3:05:16.959 would associate or or believe to be neo Nazi UM 3:05:17.080 --> 3:05:20.440 encouraging people to join their groups and channels UM in 3:05:20.480 --> 3:05:24.720 the in the telegram group message as well. And I 3:05:24.760 --> 3:05:26.720 cannot speak to what that looks like right now after 3:05:26.760 --> 3:05:31.120 the article has come out, and I've been trying to 3:05:31.160 --> 3:05:33.720 take a break from Telegram for my day to day life, 3:05:34.080 --> 3:05:37.760 UM and focus on reading actual books. So but yeah, 3:05:37.800 --> 3:05:39.800 that is I can always tell when one of us 3:05:39.800 --> 3:05:43.960 has been spending time on Telegram, because the things we 3:05:44.000 --> 3:05:49.760 consider jokes get much worse. Yeah, you remember when I 3:05:49.800 --> 3:05:54.880 found that playlist of Blinks covers. It was what there 3:05:54.959 --> 3:06:03.400 was like a hundred of them something. Yeah, you always 3:06:03.440 --> 3:06:06.000 find you could, you could find the most fucked up stuff. A. 3:06:06.160 --> 3:06:09.640 Don't don't do it. Don't don't scroll untilolutely do not. 3:06:09.920 --> 3:06:12.440 You're not going to get this isn't like coveting the state. 3:06:12.480 --> 3:06:16.240 You don't even like it's it's not even it's not 3:06:16.320 --> 3:06:19.760 worth it, like there's no sacred novit like knowledge that 3:06:19.760 --> 3:06:22.840 we're hiding. It's just it's it's just kind of sucks, 3:06:23.160 --> 3:06:25.720 like it just like it just to feel bad. Yeah, 3:06:25.800 --> 3:06:29.560 it just makes you feel worse about life and yourself 3:06:29.720 --> 3:06:32.560 and the people around you. So the scope for your 3:06:32.640 --> 3:06:35.200 master's project what it's kind of the what's the what's 3:06:35.200 --> 3:06:40.640 the deal with like tying these things together? I guess yeah. Yeah. 3:06:40.640 --> 3:06:43.200 So so using this social network analysis to argue that 3:06:43.440 --> 3:06:49.560 the telegram does function as this cultake milieu, um, which yeah, 3:06:49.760 --> 3:06:55.480 it seems seems to be, which seems to be the case. Yeah, um, 3:06:55.560 --> 3:06:57.800 you know, and the question gets into what is the 3:06:57.840 --> 3:07:01.600 responsibility the platform? Right? Um? Because I fully believe there 3:07:01.680 --> 3:07:07.119 should be something at least similar to this. It has 3:07:07.160 --> 3:07:09.360 been used for you know, purposes the line with all 3:07:09.400 --> 3:07:15.480 politics in which I would call good and needed. Um. However, 3:07:15.520 --> 3:07:20.480 they've also allowed this fucking awful ecosystem to spread. It's 3:07:20.520 --> 3:07:22.720 it's interesting to see when Telegram has had to step 3:07:22.760 --> 3:07:25.400 in and they you know, they have pulled down some ices, 3:07:25.440 --> 3:07:31.440 accounts and channels. Um. And and they have down when 3:07:31.480 --> 3:07:34.000 I was in um Al Hall, which is that the 3:07:34.040 --> 3:07:36.320 camp where all the ISIS prisoners were in Syria. Like 3:07:36.400 --> 3:07:38.520 while Jake and I were in the camp, we could 3:07:38.560 --> 3:07:42.360 see on telegram like ISIS supporters and al hole talking 3:07:42.400 --> 3:07:46.560 about stabbing guards like in real time. It was not 3:07:47.040 --> 3:07:51.400 particularly Uh, they've done like a lot. There's less of 3:07:51.400 --> 3:07:53.000 it than there used to be, but it is still 3:07:53.040 --> 3:07:55.680 not hard to find iss on telegram. Yeah, and they 3:07:55.800 --> 3:08:00.800 they've taken down a few amounts of neo Nazi channels. Um. 3:08:00.800 --> 3:08:04.320 It's it's funny because oh God, maybe cut this. But 3:08:04.840 --> 3:08:06.640 they've taken on some of the new channels when they've 3:08:06.640 --> 3:08:10.240 shared ice as ship for example. Yeah, yeah, I think 3:08:10.480 --> 3:08:13.320 we're we've we're familiar with that line of thing. That's 3:08:13.320 --> 3:08:17.280 something we've mentioned before. Okay. There has been pressure from 3:08:17.320 --> 3:08:20.360 from the play store and Google as well, or the 3:08:20.360 --> 3:08:23.800 play store from Google and and the app store Apples, 3:08:23.800 --> 3:08:27.400 app store from Apple to say we we aren't going 3:08:27.480 --> 3:08:31.160 to carry the app if you don't do just a 3:08:31.160 --> 3:08:35.800 tiny bit better essentially um which which which also it 3:08:35.840 --> 3:08:38.960 exists as a web client, um both as as a 3:08:38.959 --> 3:08:42.520 web client and as a desktop app as well. UM. 3:08:42.560 --> 3:08:46.600 But that would you know, limits some of it. Um. So. 3:08:46.600 --> 3:08:50.560 So this has become largely discussed in the German in 3:08:50.600 --> 3:08:54.120 the German Parliament because there's a new um, there's a 3:08:54.120 --> 3:08:57.560 new government in Germany, and and there is this history 3:08:57.680 --> 3:09:04.560 of Germany kind of is the lead for doing things 3:09:04.600 --> 3:09:08.920 about this digital content, especially within the EU. And and 3:09:08.959 --> 3:09:11.360 as I mentioned, there's already law call Adopt Enforcement Act 3:09:11.360 --> 3:09:15.800 that requires platforms to take down content in Germany. Um, 3:09:15.879 --> 3:09:17.959 they could be implemented on telegram as well. There's already 3:09:17.959 --> 3:09:24.360 a law. Yeah. I mean, this is like the thing 3:09:24.360 --> 3:09:26.920 why you know what I watch happen lots is you know, 3:09:27.240 --> 3:09:29.039 these channels will get shut down and they'll make a 3:09:29.080 --> 3:09:30.760 new one, and it will shut down that one and 3:09:30.760 --> 3:09:32.360 make a new one. Right. It's this You see this 3:09:32.400 --> 3:09:35.240 with like discord servers, telegram channels. It is kind of 3:09:35.240 --> 3:09:38.560 this endless cycle, um. And seeking an end to the cycle. 3:09:39.200 --> 3:09:43.920 It's always not as easy as what one would hope, um, 3:09:43.959 --> 3:09:46.760 because of the cyclical nature of building these platforms and 3:09:46.800 --> 3:09:49.480 connections and how the people who run these you know, 3:09:49.600 --> 3:09:52.360 intersect and specifically with with telegrams really easy because the 3:09:52.440 --> 3:09:54.600 channel gets shut down, you're still part of twelve of 3:09:54.720 --> 3:09:56.760 the channels, and odds are one of those channels is 3:09:56.760 --> 3:09:58.480 going to afford you the link to the new channel 3:09:58.560 --> 3:10:00.800 that was that was lost. Uh. Yeah, And this is 3:10:00.800 --> 3:10:02.720 the thing you see where they send lists of channels 3:10:03.720 --> 3:10:06.280 within within extremest groups and channels they will send out 3:10:06.280 --> 3:10:08.400 lists of here's other groups and channels to check out 3:10:08.440 --> 3:10:12.160 as well. Yeah, but I mean I would. So that's 3:10:12.160 --> 3:10:14.800 something that's you know, hard for regular people to actually do. 3:10:15.000 --> 3:10:17.760 But something I think that people who do not own 3:10:17.800 --> 3:10:23.359 these platforms nor lawmakers can't think about is particularly the 3:10:23.200 --> 3:10:26.080 the the cultic milieu that does you know, go past 3:10:26.200 --> 3:10:29.840 regular left right divisions in terms of politics and how 3:10:29.920 --> 3:10:34.320 you know, symbol like symbology, um and stuff that was 3:10:34.440 --> 3:10:38.360 you know initially you know, perhaps more anarchist or or 3:10:38.480 --> 3:10:41.920 left wing is being used by people on the right, 3:10:42.000 --> 3:10:44.840 and some people are really confused by that, and there 3:10:44.879 --> 3:10:46.680 is ways to there is ways to understand it like 3:10:46.720 --> 3:10:49.040 it is. It does. I am very frustrated when I 3:10:49.080 --> 3:10:53.320 look at you know, people online who don't understand why 3:10:53.600 --> 3:10:57.320 Nazis can use ted K and right, it's like, yeah, 3:10:57.400 --> 3:10:58.959 like it's it's not it's it's not it's not not 3:10:58.959 --> 3:11:00.840 not what it's not not really about Ted K actually 3:11:00.840 --> 3:11:05.600 wrote it's more than the symbolic meme of ted K. 3:11:06.240 --> 3:11:08.280 And trying to you know, get that, get that line 3:11:08.280 --> 3:11:11.080 of thinking across is not the easiest thing, because sometimes 3:11:11.080 --> 3:11:12.400 it will go in the other direction and be like, 3:11:12.520 --> 3:11:14.959 oh ted K is a Nazi, which isn't accurate either, 3:11:15.040 --> 3:11:17.160 Like that's that's not also the most accurate thing to say, 3:11:17.400 --> 3:11:21.920 So it's it's the cultivalu framework of being. Yeah, sometimes 3:11:21.920 --> 3:11:23.960 these symbols can cross over from one thing to another, 3:11:24.320 --> 3:11:26.320 and sometimes the action can be the same. You know, 3:11:26.440 --> 3:11:29.959 both anarchists and like insurrectionary fascists both want to like 3:11:30.000 --> 3:11:34.039 attack like industrialization and attack points of industry, right, but 3:11:34.200 --> 3:11:37.480 maybe their ideologies are slightly different, sometimes in specific ways. 3:11:37.800 --> 3:11:42.360 So it's always a tricky thing to kind of navigate. Um. 3:11:42.400 --> 3:11:44.520 So I think in terms of you know, people should 3:11:44.560 --> 3:11:47.600 think about what symbols they promote, uh like publicly and 3:11:47.640 --> 3:11:51.160 stuff is a good thing, and think about news aggregation 3:11:51.320 --> 3:11:55.680 and how to maybe not not just share something because 3:11:55.680 --> 3:11:59.240 it's countercultural, trying to figure out what other what other 3:11:59.280 --> 3:12:04.120 types of narrative the sources spreading UMO journalist support the 3:12:04.120 --> 3:12:06.199 work of real journalist because a bunch of kick asks 3:12:06.200 --> 3:12:09.920 people out there, um who are doing awesome research and work. 3:12:11.720 --> 3:12:13.879 So I think that kind of wraps up the scope 3:12:13.879 --> 3:12:16.480 of what I want to talk about around disclose specifically 3:12:16.480 --> 3:12:18.959 because I mean discloses a thing, but it's also like 3:12:19.280 --> 3:12:21.200 it's good as just like an example to like this 3:12:21.360 --> 3:12:25.400 overly this broader like phenomenon. I think, um, because like 3:12:25.440 --> 3:12:28.720 Disclose won't be here forever, hopefully, like you know, hopefully 3:12:28.720 --> 3:12:30.320 in a few years. It's something that we can just 3:12:30.360 --> 3:12:33.680 like look back on and laugh about. Um. But it's 3:12:33.720 --> 3:12:36.480 you know, it's still a good signifier for a phenomenon 3:12:36.520 --> 3:12:39.640 that happens. And the phenomenon even even if Disclose goes away, 3:12:39.760 --> 3:12:42.080 the phenomenon is still going to stay, um, And it's 3:12:42.080 --> 3:12:44.440 important to point it out when you see whatever the 3:12:44.520 --> 3:12:47.520 next version of this is. So. And I'll also say 3:12:47.560 --> 3:12:51.440 that the culticnalu isn't necessarily a bad thing. Right. This 3:12:51.520 --> 3:12:53.920 is you know, where where the stuff that is rejected 3:12:53.920 --> 3:12:58.600 by the Orthodox goes and clearly eliminating right, any kind 3:12:58.600 --> 3:13:00.879 of culticnal you just means everything is exactly the fucking 3:13:00.879 --> 3:13:03.600 same and falls in line with or thoughts belief which 3:13:03.640 --> 3:13:06.840 I strongly disagree with as well. No, there's there is 3:13:06.879 --> 3:13:11.879 a way to be countercultural without being a conspiratorial fascist. 3:13:12.879 --> 3:13:16.080 I would say that most responsibility in which you were 3:13:16.080 --> 3:13:18.640 consuming and sharing, Yes, And I would say like most 3:13:18.680 --> 3:13:21.840 people who are actually counterculture are yeah, like actual punk 3:13:22.360 --> 3:13:26.080 is is that you know, once you're enforcing traditional hierarchical 3:13:26.200 --> 3:13:30.440 viewpoints that that ain't punk. That is uh, that's playing 3:13:30.480 --> 3:13:34.280 into what the status quo was. That isn't that isn't revolutionary. 3:13:36.240 --> 3:13:40.880 Pistols would disagree with you, aren't they all? Yeah? But 3:13:41.200 --> 3:13:43.440 I think we can all agree that having living members 3:13:43.440 --> 3:13:46.320 of the sex Pistols was a mistake, and I would 3:13:46.440 --> 3:13:49.680 I prefer Alana Wachowski's version of punk to theirs anyway. 3:13:49.800 --> 3:13:54.320 So hey, who cares? UM? So thank you for your work, 3:13:54.400 --> 3:13:58.280 Thomas Um. I recommend people reach your article, UM, which 3:13:58.280 --> 3:14:02.120 you can do by googling disclosed TV. Now it will 3:14:02.240 --> 3:14:04.240 be for me. It's the second result that pops up. 3:14:04.240 --> 3:14:07.240 So that's gool um. Send it to all your friends 3:14:07.240 --> 3:14:09.800 and mutuals who are sharing disclosed TV. UM. You can 3:14:09.800 --> 3:14:13.120 find it on logically dot Ai is the website and 3:14:13.160 --> 3:14:16.320 the full title of the article is Disclosed TV Conspiracy 3:14:16.360 --> 3:14:21.039 Forum turned disinformation Factory. Thank you, Thank you for that. UM. 3:14:21.160 --> 3:14:23.280 Do you want to direct people to your Twitter account 3:14:23.320 --> 3:14:24.760 or do you want to be a ghost that fades 3:14:24.800 --> 3:14:28.040 away in their memory? Uh? Just don't be fucking weird. 3:14:28.040 --> 3:14:32.400 You can find me on Twitter at w underscore Underscore 3:14:32.440 --> 3:14:37.040 Thomas god Damna christ be weird. All right, I guess 3:14:37.040 --> 3:14:42.520 I'm keeping my account Lockford. Um. Yeah. I also want 3:14:42.520 --> 3:14:45.800 to shout out UM some of the local mutual aid 3:14:45.920 --> 3:14:47.959 or one of the local mutual A groups in the 3:14:48.000 --> 3:14:50.080 town where I live or in the area where I lives. 3:14:50.360 --> 3:14:54.640 The Atlanta Justice Alliance. Their cash app is cash symbol 3:14:54.720 --> 3:14:56.640 a t L mutual fund and their VENMO is a 3:14:56.760 --> 3:15:00.720 t L mutual fund. They're helping out UM they've done 3:15:01.560 --> 3:15:06.640 weekly UM weekly provided food and resources for people on 3:15:06.720 --> 3:15:10.280 the house, people living in downtown Atlanta. UM and are 3:15:10.320 --> 3:15:13.400 a great group. And then also people want to give 3:15:13.440 --> 3:15:16.640 more money to things, shout out Atlanta Solidary Fund who 3:15:16.640 --> 3:15:18.560 have helped many of my friends get out of jail 3:15:18.600 --> 3:15:22.480 after they were arrested in protests. And also you can 3:15:22.560 --> 3:15:28.039 hire me, yes if you researchers, Yes you can. You can't. 3:15:28.040 --> 3:15:30.600 You can't hire Thomas if you want. I mean, I've 3:15:30.600 --> 3:15:33.840 I've I've I've known Thomas for a bit. UM. They 3:15:33.920 --> 3:15:38.560 do really good work. UM Yeah, they're very They're very 3:15:38.600 --> 3:15:41.880 They're in my experience, they're very careful researcher. They will 3:15:41.920 --> 3:15:44.199 not say things without thinking about them a lot first, 3:15:44.280 --> 3:15:47.920 which is always great in the researcher, or at least 3:15:47.920 --> 3:15:52.280 not publicly send them money and off putting comments. An 3:15:52.320 --> 3:15:55.720 even mix of money and really off putting Twitter comments. 3:15:56.120 --> 3:15:57.680 One more shout out to my one more shout out 3:15:57.720 --> 3:15:59.760 to my friends at Terrorism Bad Pod, which you should 3:15:59.760 --> 3:16:04.640 listen too, is on Twitter. Terrorism Bad Pod. Well, that 3:16:04.879 --> 3:16:07.560 doesn't for us today. If you, for some reason are 3:16:07.640 --> 3:16:09.640 on social media and you want to follow us, you 3:16:09.640 --> 3:16:12.600 can follow us that cool Zoned Media or hassolutely don't 3:16:12.600 --> 3:16:15.480 do or happen here pod um. You can follow Robert 3:16:15.560 --> 3:16:18.800 Evans at I write okay, send him weird do not 3:16:18.959 --> 3:16:21.959 do that, and you can send me weird messages at 3:16:22.320 --> 3:16:27.600 creepo time all right, se Garrison pictures of salads that 3:16:27.680 --> 3:16:30.800 you make and keep keep doing that for like five 3:16:30.920 --> 3:16:33.800 or six years to the point that it actually becomes funny. 3:16:33.840 --> 3:16:35.640 Because it's going to take a while. I'm just happy 3:16:35.680 --> 3:16:39.080 that people will stop sending meal porn. So that's honestly, 3:16:39.360 --> 3:16:46.200 that's a wind that one's on you though. Alright, good 3:16:46.240 --> 3:17:01.840 finde for funny. Hey, we'll be Monday with more episodes 3:17:01.959 --> 3:17:04.480 every week from now until the heat death of the Universe. 3:17:05.200 --> 3:17:07.240 It could happen here is a production of Cool Zone 3:17:07.280 --> 3:17:10.040 Media or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our 3:17:10.080 --> 3:17:12.520 website cool zone media dot com or check us out 3:17:12.560 --> 3:17:15.040 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever 3:17:15.120 --> 3:17:17.800 you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It 3:17:17.840 --> 3:17:20.800 could happen here. Updated monthly at cool zone media dot 3:17:20.800 --> 3:17:25.800 com slash sources. Thanks for listening. What Girls in the Forest, 3:17:26.200 --> 3:17:31.040 our imagination and our family bonds. The forest is closer 3:17:31.040 --> 3:17:33.959 than you think. Find a forest near you and discover 3:17:34.040 --> 3:17:36.520 the Fourth dot Org brought to you by the United 3:17:36.560 --> 3:17:41.200 States Fourth Service and the Ad Council. I'm Jake Calbern, 3:17:41.440 --> 3:17:44.560 host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a 3:17:44.640 --> 3:17:48.600 lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges 3:17:48.800 --> 3:17:51.760 and even helped a hit man walk free, until one 3:17:51.800 --> 3:17:55.000 day when he started talking with the FBI and promised 3:17:55.040 --> 3:17:58.080 that he could take the mob down. I've spent the 3:17:58.080 --> 3:18:00.520 past year trying to figure out why he lipped and 3:18:00.600 --> 3:18:03.400 what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on 3:18:03.440 --> 3:18:06.480 the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 3:18:06.640 --> 3:18:12.400 get your podcasts. From Cavalry Audio, comes the new true 3:18:12.440 --> 3:18:16.240 crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. I grew up near the 3:18:16.280 --> 3:18:18.800 banks of the Green River and in the shadow of 3:18:18.800 --> 3:18:22.160 the killer that bears its name. Prosecutors described him as 3:18:22.160 --> 3:18:26.280 a serial killer. Survived, But this podcast isn't only about 3:18:26.320 --> 3:18:29.840 tracking down the killer. It's about the victims. We stayed 3:18:29.840 --> 3:18:32.400 in the woods. He always liked to go into words. 3:18:32.760 --> 3:18:35.680 Listen to The Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app, 3:18:35.840 --> 3:18:39.120 on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.