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Speaker 1: The Black Effect Presents features honest conversations and exclusive interviews,

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Speaker 1: a space for artists, everyday people, and listeners to amplify, elevate,

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Speaker 1: and empower black voices with great conversations. Make sure to

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Speaker 1: listen to The Black Effect Presents podcast on I Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Get All

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Speaker 1: the Real Housewives to you need on the podcast. To

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Speaker 1: Teas in a pod join ex Housewives Teddy Mellencamp and

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Speaker 1: Tam or Judge as they watch recap Armchair Quarterback and

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Speaker 1: breakdown all things from the hit reality TV franchise. This

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Speaker 1: team tells it like it is. Each week, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: be recapping whatever housewife is currently airing. Lucky for Tamera,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna start Oh My Gosh with Orange County. Listen

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Speaker 1: to two Teas in a Pod on the I Heart

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Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama,

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Speaker 1: what does the chicken say? Uh? Draft? Draft? Really? Giraffe draw?

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Speaker 1: You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure

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Speaker 1: you know the big stuff, like making sure your kids

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Speaker 1: are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes.

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Speaker 1: Get it right. Visits n h S a dot gov

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Speaker 1: slash the right seat brought to you by the National

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Speaker 1: Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. Hey, everybody,

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Speaker 1: Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know

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Speaker 1: this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the

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Speaker 1: week that just happened is here in one convenient and

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Speaker 1: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to

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Speaker 1: in a long stretch if you want. If you've been

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Speaker 1: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's gonna

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Speaker 1: be nothing new here for you, but you can make

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Speaker 1: your own decisions. What's meta my verse? This is it

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Speaker 1: could happen here, a podcast entirely dedicated to the metaverse um,

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Speaker 1: which is the promise of the human future. Um On

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Speaker 1: with me as always is my co host Mark Zuckerberg.

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know how talks. I'm not sure how.

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Speaker 1: I don't know who the voice you were doing? I

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Speaker 1: guess he sounds like nothing like no one but the

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Speaker 1: absence of a soul when it's dial up. Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what's going on inside his head in any moment when

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Speaker 1: he's not actively making the Internet worse. It's just a

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Speaker 1: dial tone in there. Awesome. Garrison what are we talking

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Speaker 1: about today? Well, yeah, we're gonna be talking about the

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Speaker 1: metaverse and how how it's different from what people talk

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Speaker 1: about it as. And yeah, it's it's gonna be, it's,

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Speaker 1: it's gonna it's gonna touch on a variety of things,

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Speaker 1: split up into two parts. Um. But first I would

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Speaker 1: like to paint you a picture with words, A word picture.

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Speaker 1: So you're a wickture. Yeah, you're walking walking through your

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Speaker 1: favorite grocery store. There's you know, cards passing by, horrible,

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Speaker 1: horrible music playing. It's the lighting is white and and

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Speaker 1: like overexposed and under exposed at the same time. It's

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Speaker 1: it's it's hard, it's hard to see. And this, uh,

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Speaker 1: this like a person who looks like an employee keeps

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Speaker 1: keeps popping up and trying to take you to different

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Speaker 1: sections of the store. You're trying to just ignore her.

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Speaker 1: It's a very annoying. All you need to get is

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Speaker 1: the stuff you have on a little list, and it's

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Speaker 1: it's awful. Um. Eventually you get so fed up with

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Speaker 1: this whole experience that you take out, You go to

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Speaker 1: where the wine bottles are, You take them out, and

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Speaker 1: you arrange them into a giant penis on the floor

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Speaker 1: because that's the only thing you can do because you're

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Speaker 1: not actually in a store. You're in your living room

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Speaker 1: and you have a horrible headset on, and you're trying

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Speaker 1: to do shopping in a virtual in a virtual grocery store. Um.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's the actual kind of scope of what

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about today is virtual marketplaces and

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Speaker 1: how they interact with seemingly real marketplaces. Yeah, I'm sure

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Speaker 1: this is inspired by There were a couple of videos

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Speaker 1: that dropped recently, one of them from I Think Walmart.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna be talk We're gonna be We're gonna be

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Speaker 1: talking about it. So yeah, So a couple a couple

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Speaker 1: of days after New Year, a video went viral across

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Speaker 1: the social media's ranking up over like eleven million views

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Speaker 1: on Twitter um and it was titled how Walmart envisions

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Speaker 1: shopping in the mold in the metaverse. Now, So what

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Speaker 1: followed was like two minutes of an embarrassing like VR jank,

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Speaker 1: including like throwing around virtual gallons of milk from your

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Speaker 1: cart into a virtual fridge. Many many dunks were made,

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Speaker 1: fun was had, but what a few people probably realized

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Speaker 1: is that like this actually this This wasn't a Walmart

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Speaker 1: metaverse test store. This was actually a five year old

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Speaker 1: tech demo from before non Neil Stevenson fans even knew

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Speaker 1: what the term metaverse meant. So a few years back,

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Speaker 1: a tech company called a Mutual Mobile partnered with Walmart

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Speaker 1: for a project set to quote reimagine retails virtual reality. Now,

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Speaker 1: that sounds very fancy and important, but considering this was

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Speaker 1: five years ago and you're not hearing about it until now,

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Speaker 1: shows how impactful this thing actually was. The first stated

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Speaker 1: goal of the tech demo, according to the Mutual Mobile website,

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Speaker 1: was to impress influencers at south By Southwest. So you know,

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Speaker 1: just like the so called metaverse is now, this is

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Speaker 1: largely a promotional project, um and a way to attract investors.

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Speaker 1: This was this was never actually a serious thing. It's

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna say it right now. South By Southwest was

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Speaker 1: always one of the stupidest things in the world. Um,

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Speaker 1: and when it comes back it will be still because

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Speaker 1: it's stupid. It's a stupid place for the most insufferable

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Speaker 1: people in the world to come and talk about technology.

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Speaker 1: Some people also listen to music. That's fine, so yeah,

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Speaker 1: for for the for the experience itself that you an

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Speaker 1: original Oculus rift and programmed roughly like four minute linear

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Speaker 1: um expedition into a barren, hellish digital Walmart where you

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Speaker 1: pick up and throw it did it did sound exactly.

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Speaker 1: My favorite thing about this video is they were clearly

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Speaker 1: using the audio of some sort of like shooter game,

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Speaker 1: because it was often like things would it would sound

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Speaker 1: like you were in like fucking doom going through a portal,

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Speaker 1: and it was extremely funny. It was bad, sound like

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Speaker 1: hell you'll you'll pick up and throw fake wine bottles

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Speaker 1: into your blue digital cart, and the whole thing ends

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Speaker 1: with a fake drone delivering an eight hundred dollar TV

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Speaker 1: that you fake purchased. It's it's not great. What Mutual

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Speaker 1: Mobile and Walmart were trying to do. They have a

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Speaker 1: constatement on their website back from it was they said

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Speaker 1: that Walmart envisioned unvailing a fully virtual shopping experience that

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Speaker 1: puts shoppers inside the store without ever leaving their homes.

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Speaker 1: To attract customers and to spell the misconception that they're

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Speaker 1: not as advanced as their more digital counterparts. Brick and

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Speaker 1: mortar establishments are not the accelerating investments in areas like

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Speaker 1: web and mobile, they're also exploring the very edge of

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Speaker 1: emerging technology. Walmart of virtual reality is a case some

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Speaker 1: point potential shoppers can virtually pick up products, read labels,

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Speaker 1: talk to virtual associates, and fill their shopping carts. But

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Speaker 1: the goal wasn't just to create something interactive. Walmart needed

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Speaker 1: something that showed the potential of VR in retail while

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Speaker 1: putting them ahead of the competition. So I mean this

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Speaker 1: was like this was this was kind of ahead in

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Speaker 1: some ways, but also ahead in the ways that it's

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Speaker 1: kind of showing how not useful. This example is so

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Speaker 1: obviously like this five year old video resurface now due

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Speaker 1: to Zuckerberg and Epic Games, you know, forcing an astroturfed

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Speaker 1: metaverse into the cultural zeitgeist, coupled with their you know,

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Speaker 1: conflation of anything VR to the legendary metaverse, right, because

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Speaker 1: VR does not equal metaverse, nor is it nor is

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Speaker 1: it necessarily vice versa. But now these terms are getting

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Speaker 1: used so interchangeably that someone can stumble across this video

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Speaker 1: and be like, oh, look at this metaverse store, when

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Speaker 1: like it's it's not it's just a it's just a

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Speaker 1: VR tech type of the metaverse in order to be

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Speaker 1: like the thing that people have been imagining through cyberpunk

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Speaker 1: since like the nineties, it needs to be persistent and

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Speaker 1: interact directly with the real world in a number of ways,

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Speaker 1: like it It's It's it's well, we'll get into we'll

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Speaker 1: get into kind of what metaverse could be in the

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Speaker 1: future in terms of like the it could happen here idea,

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Speaker 1: and then not just a metaverse but a series of

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Speaker 1: metaverse is what they could be, and how that kind

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Speaker 1: of can negates the original idea of it in the

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Speaker 1: first place. But um, when asked by Vice News about

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Speaker 1: the resurgence of their Walmart project, Mutual Mobile replied, the

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Speaker 1: vision of a virtual shopping experience we helped Walmart realize

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Speaker 1: back in seventeen stands validated in the metaverse era of today.

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Speaker 1: This whole experience has only encouraged us to keep experimenting, innovating,

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Speaker 1: and leading the charge with cutting edge tech. So, I mean,

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Speaker 1: considering most of the virality of this was people joking

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Speaker 1: about it, I yeah, sure, okay, okay, Mutual good good

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Speaker 1: luck with that. So a few days after the Walmart

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Speaker 1: video went viral, rumors of another big box store going

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Speaker 1: Metaverse started to circulate again, accompanied by a video of

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Speaker 1: a possible like three D metaverse storefront. Reports emerged, starting

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Speaker 1: in India, claiming that H and M had announced that

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Speaker 1: it would offer its customers a three dimensional shopping experience

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Speaker 1: in its a virtual store inside the metaverse via something

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Speaker 1: called Now. I don't know if it's Keik City or

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Speaker 1: seek City. Um, I'm not really comfortable saying either of

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Speaker 1: those things because they sound weird, but I'm gonna go.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna go with Seek City. That's it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit better. I know, I know it sound, but it

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Speaker 1: sounds like it's a slur. So I'm gonna say Seek

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Speaker 1: but it's it's s e e k um. So this

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Speaker 1: This account on on Twitter called us seek vr shared

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Speaker 1: the following from it's a show Twitter account shopping in

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Speaker 1: the Metaverse with seek coin concept VR store presented to

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Speaker 1: H and M by Seek creates mainstream use cases for

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Speaker 1: seek coin and scaling virtual reality beyond games. So I'll

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Speaker 1: get into what seek is in a bit. But the

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Speaker 1: report said that customers will be able to walk through

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Speaker 1: the store choose the apparel they wanted to purchase in

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Speaker 1: the Sikh City universe. Um. Although the clothes could only

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Speaker 1: be worn in the digital environment, payment would be made

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Speaker 1: with seek coin and customers could have the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: order the same apparel from H and m's physical stores later.

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Speaker 1: But that you're buying two separate things. One of us

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Speaker 1: the digital skin, one of it's an actual, you know,

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Speaker 1: real thing. Um so what a seek? Seek was launched

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Speaker 1: in It's a metaverse coin pop project built on the

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Speaker 1: Ethereum blockchain and their their Their goal is to connect artists, athletes,

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Speaker 1: and other digital content creators directly with their fans and

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Speaker 1: virtual worlds. Seeks n f T marketplaces is designed to

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Speaker 1: enable real ownership in which I would actually want. That is,

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Speaker 1: if it's me having a very sexual zoom chat with

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Speaker 1: you know what, we don't need to Garrison, please continue, okay,

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Speaker 1: quoting from subside. Seek currently offers a range of immersive

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Speaker 1: VR experiences within Seek City, including theater, concert arenas, sports complex,

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Speaker 1: hang out lounge, and more. There's all the things you

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Speaker 1: can do in your real home, but weird and on

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Speaker 1: the internet. This is horrible, and I see a potential

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Speaker 1: appeal for people who are like out in the sticks

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Speaker 1: or in parts of the world where they're not they

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Speaker 1: feel not like they're very politically or whatever disconnected, which

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Speaker 1: is the same thing the Internet already does. I'll talk

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Speaker 1: about it being in VR will make it better. I

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Speaker 1: don't know. I've lived in the middle of nowhere and

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Speaker 1: relied on the Internet to be social, and I don't

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Speaker 1: think I would have wanted to change the Internet in

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Speaker 1: for this because it sounds yeah, anyway, it's I'll talk.

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Speaker 1: I'll talk about use cases in a sec. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so end users will be able to use seek token

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Speaker 1: to make purchases, vote for content control programming a much

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Speaker 1: more after token launch, seek VR, in partnership with Universal Music,

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Speaker 1: can realize live performances of world famous artists such as

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Speaker 1: bon Jovi, Lady Gaga, you Tube, Sting, and many more

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Speaker 1: can take place on this platform. So seek is like

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Speaker 1: it's it's kind of the startup, but it's been around

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Speaker 1: for a while. It's trying to do like you know,

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Speaker 1: virtual venues inside the metaverse. They they do have contracts

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Speaker 1: with Universal, so it's it's it's a mix of trying

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Speaker 1: it's it's a mix of this coin, so it's a

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Speaker 1: mix of this like cryptocurrency, also trying to use this

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Speaker 1: cryptocurrency in this world they're trying to build up. Um.

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Speaker 1: There their their their roadmap to metaverse right now. First

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Speaker 1: thing is like payment integration, so using seek coin. They

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Speaker 1: want seek coin to be the coin for everything in

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Speaker 1: the metaverse. They want all metaverse be based off this

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Speaker 1: thing that they invented called sea Coin because it will

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Speaker 1: make them money. Um. Next thing they want to do

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Speaker 1: is create a creator enabled ecosystem, so kind of copy

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Speaker 1: the content creator thing we have right now, poured that

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Speaker 1: into the metaverse. But again have everything you know, you

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Speaker 1: can invest in your creators so you can vote on

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Speaker 1: what they do using sea coins and all of we

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Speaker 1: talked about like the personal ownership in the previous episode.

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Speaker 1: But then a lot of it, you know, they have

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Speaker 1: like an n FT marketplace, Avatar marketplaces, etcetera, etcetera. But

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Speaker 1: a lot of this stuff is built around like concerts,

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Speaker 1: you know, venues, you know, a lounge, movie theaters where

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Speaker 1: you can do stuff in VR. That is like that

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Speaker 1: is the main the main thing that Seek is trying

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Speaker 1: to do. They do have this one one quote somewhere,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, the future milestone. So after they achieve this

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Speaker 1: Seek metaverse where everything is ran through Seek, all of

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Speaker 1: like you know what, whether you're on Oculus, whether you're

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Speaker 1: on Vibe, all of it gets run through seeks. It's

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Speaker 1: one one multiverse, sorry, one metaverse. Their their future milestones

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Speaker 1: are quote a VR Space Academy. They do not do

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Speaker 1: not say what that means, Keek Studios again kind of unclear.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing like original content. And then the last one

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Speaker 1: is a blockchain metaverse alliance. Those are their those are

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Speaker 1: their three big future milestones after they get there there.

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Speaker 1: What was that last one? Blockchain metaverse Alliance? I mean,

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Speaker 1: this was like in the Facebook thing to write the

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Speaker 1: idea that we're going to integrate in f t S.

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Speaker 1: But it was also clearly just like they tossed that

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Speaker 1: in there on the Facebook one, there was no evidence

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Speaker 1: they thought seriously about n f t S or blockchain.

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Speaker 1: It was just had gotten big while they were preparing

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Speaker 1: the things, so they tossed them in there. Um, I

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Speaker 1: I get the idea, right, Like the thing that they

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Speaker 1: keep pitching with this is that you'll be able to

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Speaker 1: have an item in one game that is yours. The

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Speaker 1: company doesn't own it, you can take it to other games,

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Speaker 1: which anyone who makes games will tell you was fucking nonsense,

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Speaker 1: it's something like that might be vaguely possible in a

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Speaker 1: metaverse where everything was forced to use the same engine,

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Speaker 1: um and all. Everyone was also forced to abide by

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Speaker 1: a bunch of strict rules by Facebook. Um that Also,

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Speaker 1: that's probably violating antitrust laws. Um and also it seems

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Speaker 1: like a ridiculously Sisiphisian task with no real benefit. I

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Speaker 1: don't think anyone's going to do it, but I'm guessing

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Speaker 1: that's what they're referring to when they want to jam

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Speaker 1: the blockchain up in the fucking metaverse. Like what else

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Speaker 1: could it be? The blockchain Metaverse Alliance, all of the

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Speaker 1: blockchains the metaverse is gonna aligned into. Yeah, like they

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Speaker 1: don't want to put all of the metaverse stuff. You

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Speaker 1: want to wear this shirt in the metaverse. So, just

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Speaker 1: like the real world, the freedom, the freedom of the

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Speaker 1: internet catch you feel. It's the ever expecting possibilities. I

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Speaker 1: do love because they keep talking about within the context

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Speaker 1: of metaverse games like you'll get to unlock a character

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Speaker 1: that's just yours and nobody else can play it, and

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Speaker 1: they'll have special abilities that means he wins all the time.

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Speaker 1: It's like, why would people play that game? I think

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Speaker 1: it was Business Insiders, someone's article talking about how need

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Speaker 1: it would be for games to work this way, and like,

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Speaker 1: think of all the money you'd make people wanting to

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Speaker 1: watch your character wins. People don't want to just like

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Speaker 1: watch a guy who's structurally unable to lose because he

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Speaker 1: he bought the right character in a racing game win

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Speaker 1: every race. That's not no one's going to pay to

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Speaker 1: watch that. Do you understand what people watch races for?

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Speaker 1: Like now, anyway, let's hear from our good friends at

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Speaker 1: our products and services before we come back and talk

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Speaker 1: more about seek coins. I guess I don't know. All right,

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Speaker 1: we are back, So yeah, zee coins virtual reality spaces

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Speaker 1: run on smart contracts through the through the Bayan's smart

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Speaker 1: chain and there there there run the run through the

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Speaker 1: Ethereum blockchain. UM. So the the there's about seven and

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Speaker 1: seven forty four millions seek coins and supply. The maximum

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Speaker 1: supply capacity is capped at one billion coins. Uh. Sea

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Speaker 1: coins peaked at one one dollar and sixteen cents a

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Speaker 1: year ago after launching, and around four cents um. They're

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Speaker 1: currently being traded for around sixty cents. So that's that's

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Speaker 1: what actual sea coins doing. Like like like people do

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Speaker 1: use this, there's not many people like they. They do

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Speaker 1: have these contracts with with with Universal Music. Um but

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Speaker 1: before this H and M thing, I I never heard

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Speaker 1: of Seek coins. Um. So, two days after the rumors

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Speaker 1: began circulating that H and M was, you know, partnering

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Speaker 1: with Seek, H and M said, Nope, we did not,

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Speaker 1: We are we are not doing this, but they did

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Speaker 1: not close the door in future possibilities. They said, uh,

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Speaker 1: we we we like to we'd like to confirm that

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Speaker 1: H and M is not is not opening a store

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Speaker 1: in the metaverse at this time. We're also not collaborating

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Speaker 1: with Seek. So the official Twitter account for Seek subsequently

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Speaker 1: clarified later on that the store that they were doing

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Speaker 1: was just a concept that was presented to H and

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Speaker 1: M and not a not a launching virtual store yet.

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Speaker 1: Um but they do. They do say that they're in

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Speaker 1: discussions with H and M to make this a reality,

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Speaker 1: but it's not a reality as of now. So this

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Speaker 1: this kind of begs the question, like, what about a

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Speaker 1: three D digital space is superior to a two D

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Speaker 1: digital space for simple tasks like shopping online. So once

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Speaker 1: you start, you know, unfolding questions like this about the

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Speaker 1: Internet metaverse a r VR, you there are more the

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Speaker 1: conternal sides to this than you would have initially estimated.

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Speaker 1: Um But, first off, before we kind of have this discussion,

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Speaker 1: we should split this into two categories. One for shopping

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Speaker 1: for like real physical items that you plan on like

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Speaker 1: receiving in person, and then digital items that don't physically

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Speaker 1: exist and are just just on your computer and monitor.

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Speaker 1: So obviously, like there's no clear advantage in most cases

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Speaker 1: to traversing an isolated virtual environment in order to order

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Speaker 1: food as opposed to just scrolling through a web page.

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Speaker 1: Um But once you expand out of the confines of

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Speaker 1: VRS sensory deprivation three three D technology in a r SO,

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Speaker 1: augmented reality does actually have some useful prospects, including some

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Speaker 1: that are already in use. Amazon and Ikea, for example,

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Speaker 1: have options on their perspective websites and apps that can

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Speaker 1: like project furniture options into your living space. So you

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Speaker 1: can see that's the kind of thing that has some future.

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Speaker 1: I think, yeah, yeah, so this is currently this is

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Speaker 1: being done on your phone screen, but in a r

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Speaker 1: glasses application of this actually serve its purpose quite well

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Speaker 1: because something something that want yeah, pretty mediocre and these are.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of the thing the place where at

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Speaker 1: I we make fun of this stuff a lot because

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Speaker 1: most of its nonsense there are there are really there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of potential in some of these ideas, but

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Speaker 1: there's their potential for like and the same level that

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Speaker 1: the air fryer has potential where it's like a thing

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Speaker 1: a bunch of people will buy, but it's not. None

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Speaker 1: of this yet is stuff that's going to completely change. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you might get a few million people to to get

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Speaker 1: these glasses and or this app made this classes for

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Speaker 1: a couple of reasons, but who would use this this

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Speaker 1: app to like help plan out how they're setting up

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Speaker 1: their houses. You might get a few million people who

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Speaker 1: do that. It's not going to be like an iPod

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Speaker 1: or an iPhone or or like Facebook that no one's

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Speaker 1: had figured that out yet. There's there's some neat products

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Speaker 1: that are going to be valuable, but we're still on

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Speaker 1: the stage where nobody's under nobody's figured out fundamentally what

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Speaker 1: people want from this as opposed through like tiny specific needs.

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Speaker 1: In the same way that like there was a number

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Speaker 1: of futurists who quite add accurately figured out with a smartphone, Like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: people want a thing that will give them access to

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Speaker 1: all of the knowledge and ideas in the world and

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Speaker 1: also let them yell at anybody anytime they want. Like,

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Speaker 1: that's something that is going to be incredibly successful, and

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Speaker 1: it has and it's changed the entire world. Zuckerberg was like,

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Speaker 1: people want to be able to be racist faster, and

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Speaker 1: by god, we wanted it and and that was huge. Um,

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Speaker 1: I don't like these are It's a good idea, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: let people scope out how their room is going to

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Speaker 1: look when they're shopping or whatever through a r But

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Speaker 1: we haven't yet hit that this is going to change

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Speaker 1: the world, because being slightly better at using Ikea will

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Speaker 1: not change the world. Yeah. I think as an avid

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Speaker 1: air fryer hater, I do think comparing metaverse to the

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Speaker 1: air fryer is actually which I love to say to Garrison.

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Speaker 1: I know Garrison hates it when I use the air fryer.

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Speaker 1: Fer mhm anti air frier action is my new tattoo.

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Speaker 1: They screech like the person at the end of Invasion

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Speaker 1: of the Body. But my goodness, do they cook my

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Speaker 1: food faster the fry it with the air Wow? Almost

387
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 1: like it's impossible anyway. UM. Mutual Mobiles digital marketing strategists

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00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 1: talked with Vice after the Walrut video went viral, and

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Speaker 1: he explained that like, the demo was made to show

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Speaker 1: the potential of virtual reality and shopping experiences that they

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Speaker 1: can have for you know, different people, UM, including its

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Speaker 1: ability to connect like elderly people or people with disabilities

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Speaker 1: to a shopping experience from the comfort of their own home,

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Speaker 1: something that he thinks might even be you know, attractive

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Speaker 1: to people who have been through several rounds of COVID quarantine.

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Speaker 1: And I can kind of understand this last argument. You know,

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Speaker 1: during early quarantine, I definitely used my VR headset more

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Speaker 1: often than I had before. UM, and with our alienated

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Speaker 1: capitalist world, I can see the use of walking around

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Speaker 1: a digital store if you're stuck at home, UM, due

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Speaker 1: to something like a plague, or if you know, if

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Speaker 1: you have a physical or mental reason that makes you know,

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00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: going to a story difficult. Because but like it's yes,

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Speaker 1: this this can help that. But also this is always

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Speaker 1: very engine how these types of stores are set up

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Speaker 1: and how these stories like affect your brain. It's like

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Speaker 1: a big part of going to the grocery store. What

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00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: it's designed to do. Let's make it so that we're

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Speaker 1: not just following a shopping list. There's like a structured

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Speaker 1: joy of discovery. Everything about the design to the store

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Speaker 1: is to get you to buy things you didn't think

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Speaker 1: you needed before you walked in, and we're trained from

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Speaker 1: birth to like to find this process pleasurable. So in

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Speaker 1: that way, walking around a VR like wal Mart or

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Speaker 1: H and M might actually make some people happy despite

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Speaker 1: that being sad and dystopian if you stop and think

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Speaker 1: about it, right, like, because that's that's actually like it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a very capitalist thing. But it does make

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Speaker 1: us happy because that's that's what we've been trained to

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Speaker 1: do since we're babies. So that there's there is that

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Speaker 1: side of it for in terms of like, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: can see if I really don't want to leave the house,

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Speaker 1: but I want to get the experience of walking through

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Speaker 1: a place, maybe I will walk through a Target to

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Speaker 1: get groceries. I don't know as some people maybe it

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Speaker 1: might do that, but otherwise, you know, it's much It

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00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 1: is much simpler and easier to just scroll through a

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00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: two dy thing on a web page and and and

429
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,439
Speaker 1: and do the things you need. That's the thing. Like

430
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 1: it's like, yeah, I mean absolutely because I I when

431
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 1: I was making fun of one of these videos, somebody

432
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 1: like called it out as being able list and was

433
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: like thinking, all the use as this as for a

434
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: disabled person, if they can use this, they can use Amazon,

435
00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: and like as a person who sometimes I don't shop

436
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: for groceries at Amazon, but I've shop for groceries online.

437
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: It's fine. The it's it's it's everything it needs to be.

438
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: You can get your groceries online, and the metaverse is

439
00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:30,359
Speaker 1: just going to make it like weird and off putting

440
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 1: and unnecessarily complicated because at the moment, I can get

441
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 1: groceries with my phone while I'm like jogging um or

442
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:41,120
Speaker 1: as I'm like sitting in traffic, or like while I'm

443
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,399
Speaker 1: on a zoom call listening to Garrison talk about the

444
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: metaverse as opposed to putting on a headset and like

445
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 1: doing the same thing basically as driving there, but more expensively. Anyway,

446
00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: are you grow for shopping? Right now? I am ordering

447
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: seventred cans of ZeVA and forty pounds of raw beef.

448
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: I you're it's a normal week's worth of food for

449
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: me and that's literally like two days for him. See

450
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:10,080
Speaker 1: but Robert, you could be doing this while wearing a

451
00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 1: bucket on your head and walking around a fake store.

452
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: I could wear a bucket on my head to the

453
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: real store. They can't stop me. I usually wear a

454
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:22,879
Speaker 1: bath rob This is the first half where it's like,

455
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 1: you know, buying actual physical items you plan to receive

456
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 1: in stores, you know, furniture. It's actually kind of makes sense.

457
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: Uh food, It's a little bit iffy. The only kind

458
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 1: of consideration there is if people want the mental effect

459
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 1: of walking around a store, if they find that pleasurable,

460
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 1: then it's a thing. But you know, it's way more

461
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,760
Speaker 1: efficient to just scroll through your phone. Um As for

462
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: the other side, buying virtual items, whether they be you know,

463
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: n f t S, video game skins or super special

464
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 1: exclusive VR hangout rooms, I don't give a funk how

465
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 1: this works. If you want to walk around a VR

466
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: vault about your VR art and your VR clothes, knock

467
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: yourself out. I buy Sonic the hedgehot games. We all

468
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 1: have our weird things we do that don't make any sense. Yeah,

469
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: if that's if you these parcery stores are just gonna

470
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: be like the seven weirdest people in the country masturbanting

471
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: as they buy wine and milk. That's the thing, Robert

472
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 1: I was when I was when I was doing the

473
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: digital picture. In the beginning, I had two scenarios, one

474
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 1: where you align the bottles into a deck. The other

475
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: one I was gonna say, you take off your pants

476
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: and start masturbating, and I decided not to do that one.

477
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,959
Speaker 1: So I'm happy that because, Yeah, that is the actual

478
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,400
Speaker 1: use case for this, is that someone's people are gonna

479
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 1: be walking around these fake walmarts just all cherking off.

480
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: That's what's gonna happen there. They're gonna have this animation

481
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: of a real, real female employee of theirs who like

482
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 1: pops up when you do something you're not supposed to

483
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: do and explain something to you. And it's going to

484
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: be impossible to remove initially, and people are going to

485
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:51,679
Speaker 1: turn it into a whole weird, horny thing, and like

486
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 1: they will appear in all these circumstances. It's gonna go

487
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: it's going to be the only thing that goes viral,

488
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,440
Speaker 1: Like it's gonna be the only thing people remember five

489
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: years later about the first of these This is I'm

490
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start. Go back to this towards the end

491
00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 1: of part two. But this is the actual way to

492
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,680
Speaker 1: handle the metaverse, because we're gonna this this thing is

493
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: going to be forced on us one way or another.

494
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 1: We're gonna have a form of it, and honestly, the

495
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: best thing we can do with it is either ignore it,

496
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: ignore it, or maybe more attractively, is to funk with it.

497
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 1: Like that's gonna be the thing, that's gonna be the

498
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: thing to do. There was an article a few days

499
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 1: ago that the headline is Final Fantasy porn interrupts Italian

500
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,399
Speaker 1: Senate zoom event someone someone joined in and started playing

501
00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: poured from Final Fantasy seven, Like this is this is

502
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: to do. This is the way that we need to

503
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: do it. If there's gonna be dumbass like meetings on

504
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 1: the Zuckerberg metaverse, people need to go in and make

505
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 1: it weirdly horny. Yeah, Garrison, I could not agree more

506
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: that that's the what you need to do, citizens of

507
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,720
Speaker 1: the Internet is look up something awful, have h A

508
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: B B O hotel. That's the kind of ship that

509
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: we need to be doing in fucking um In in

510
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: the there was basically a children's video game was an

511
00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:12,399
Speaker 1: early kids MMO and a bunch of weird adults and

512
00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 1: something awful decided to create an unsettling cult of people

513
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 1: who all looked identical and marched around doing all of

514
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: these weird, unsettling things in a children's game. It was

515
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 1: very fun um like or or like in a in

516
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: second life when it was the new big sexy thing

517
00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: there was. This was very self important tech writer, investor

518
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,879
Speaker 1: type person who was doing a Q and A and

519
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: people just like animated thousands of floating penises going around.

520
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,160
Speaker 1: This is this is gonna be the thing. This is

521
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 1: what you're gonna have to do because in order because

522
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 1: if it's gonna be this horrible corporate hell, the only

523
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 1: way to do it. The only way to deal with

524
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: that is to make it unusable for everybody so that

525
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,480
Speaker 1: so that it doesn't get used. And the way to

526
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 1: do that is by putting dicks everywhere. Dicks andwhere ever

527
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,240
Speaker 1: decides to do a multiverse pre sentation or if one

528
00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 1: party or another has had decides to a multiverse debate,

529
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: it is everyone's moral responsibility, civic duty. This goes beyond

530
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: civic This is as a citizen of the human race,

531
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 1: you know, as a member of this species. You have

532
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:16,479
Speaker 1: to try to find a way to suck it up

533
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 1: for them. Something could be more important. So yeah, So

534
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: if if you're buying digital items, do you never plan

535
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: everyth even person, I don't care how you do it.

536
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: Knock yourself out. We all have our weird things. I

537
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: I bsonic DLCs, people do World of Warcraft. If you

538
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: want to get of art piece, you can only hang

539
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: in your digital room. That sounds miserable, but have fun.

540
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,040
Speaker 1: I I used the internet to order very off putting

541
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: Danish cheese product. Oh yeah, that did happen. That was

542
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: off putting. It was weird. It was like you tried

543
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,479
Speaker 1: to trick yourself into liking it when you were eating it,

544
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 1: though I we I don't remember not liking it because

545
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: I hate a good amount. But I've had the second

546
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: Cube sitting around and I've had no desired to desired. Yeah, anyway,

547
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: so I did not like it. I just I don't

548
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 1: know that I ever want to eat it again. Quality

549
00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 1: quality audio content. So here's the thing. I have not

550
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: actually been talking about the metaverse. Nothing I've mentioned thus

551
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: far actually is the metaverse and doesn't have really anything

552
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: to do with the metaverse. Besides the technology of a

553
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: VR and a R. You know, it turns out companies

554
00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: like Facebook, Epic, Microsoft involved, the way they talk about

555
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: the metaverse is kind of all a big lie. Like

556
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: if it's not metaverse, it's a it's an astros turf

557
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 1: to top down marketing scheme to turn more of you

558
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,360
Speaker 1: into data and to create and to create vinyl marketing,

559
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: like that's instant instead of an interconnected solution to the

560
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: alienedd bubbles of Web two, it's just a social media

561
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 1: network that encompasses all of your vision and encourages even

562
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 1: more digital alienation and less in person socialization. Kids, you

563
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: know the worst stuff about the internet. What if it

564
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: was the only thing about the Internet. What if it

565
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: was encompanying everything you see instead of just a computer screen.

566
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:58,240
Speaker 1: So all of the gaming CEOs who are talking about

567
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 1: the promise of n f T s and like, I

568
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 1: think it was the one of the guys who runs

569
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 1: red and I think it might have been Alexis so

570
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 1: haney In or whatever their name is who said that

571
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: like in five years of games will be n f

572
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,640
Speaker 1: T base because people don't like wasting their time and

573
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: not getting compensated for it, Like, do you know what

574
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: a game is. That's not what people. So I'm gonna

575
00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,479
Speaker 1: I'm gonna talk more about metaverse as big tech or

576
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: just bigger tech in part two. But this this, this,

577
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: this will be wrapping up part one of the digital storefronts,

578
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:33,880
Speaker 1: and then we'll get into some more kind of applications

579
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: of this and how we're actually seeing it in the

580
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 1: second half. So, Robert, do you wanna Do you want

581
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 1: to go buy a virtual uh block of Danish cheese? Um? No?

582
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: I did. When I was hanging out on top of

583
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: the mountain the other day, I ran into a guy

584
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: flying some drones, which I normally don't like. But this

585
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: guy had a VR control rig for his very nice drones.

586
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: That's those are dope. I might I might get into

587
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 1: that yet, uh, But no, I have no desire to shop.

588
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,560
Speaker 1: I like going to the grocery store. Ums. I do

589
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 1: as much of my shopping that way as possible because

590
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: it's soothing and uh nice and I think very human

591
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: to go be around other people to get food. But yeah,

592
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: that's the thing, you know, and things like the pandemic

593
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: where that it comes harder. I think that is where

594
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 1: the use cases for the digital stores actually come in

595
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 1: like theoretically, but we've never you've never seen them that

596
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: feeling that's soothing, which it all just looks deeply off putting.

597
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: It all. It's the problem is that it's it's stuck.

598
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: It's stuck in the uncanny valley. So it's not pleasurable

599
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: to be in those digital spaces because you're even though

600
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: it's being marketed as a solution to alienation, it's just

601
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: more alienating because it's because it's it's like very clearly

602
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: exposing the alienation that we try to avoid. Um. So

603
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 1: it falls right in the middle of the uncanny valley

604
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:57,160
Speaker 1: and it's not pleasant. But we we we we We We

605
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 1: will talk more about that in part two. Um. If

606
00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: you want to follow the show on the social media's

607
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: that is Cools on media and happen here pod. It

608
00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 1: can keep up with my tweets when I I don't know,

609
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 1: I don't know what I do on Twitter anymore. But

610
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 1: that's hungry about tie and you can harass Robert Evers

611
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: at I read Okay, that's the show, do it? Do it?

612
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: Are all kill? This episode is brought to you by Wicks.

613
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Speaker 1: Are you ready to take your business online? You need Wicks.

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Speaker 1: and create your website today. That's w i X dot com. Hi.

630
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 1: I'm Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're the

631
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: hosts of the science podcast Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

632
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 1: where every week we get to explore some of the

633
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 1: weirdest questions in the universe, like if sci fi teleportation

634
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: was possible. How would it square with the multitudes of

635
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: organisms that inhabit our human bodies. Can we find evidence

636
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,799
Speaker 1: of emotions in animals like bees, ants, and crayfish? How

637
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,640
Speaker 1: would it interplanetary civilization function just free will exist. Stuff

638
00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind examines neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels,

639
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: and the unders of techno history. Basically, this show is

640
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,920
Speaker 1: the altar where we worship the weirdness of reality. If

641
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: anybody ever told you you asked the weirdest questions, it

642
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: is time to come join us in the place where

643
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 1: you belong. The Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast new

644
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:19,319
Speaker 1: episodes publish every Tuesday and Thursday, with bonus episodes on Saturdays.

645
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: Listen to Stuff to Blow Your Mind on the I

646
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

647
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:28,160
Speaker 1: Have you ever felt depressed about work only to have

648
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 1: your dad be like, why you're so down? So you

649
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 1: told him you hate your job and he said, well,

650
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: you better talk yourself out of it, and then you thought, hmm,

651
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 1: I love to talk. I could host a podcast. And

652
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: then you went to Speaker from my Heart and started

653
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 1: a podcast and got good at it. Then monetized it,

654
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks

655
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 1: for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not

656
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is.

657
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 1: But you seem happy. So that's great, kiddo. You ever

658
00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's

659
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 1: spr e A k E R ask your dad. You

660
00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:07,760
Speaker 1: actually don't time. Mark Zuckerberg, Welcome to the podcast where

661
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: we talk about the metaverse. I enjoy barbecue sauce And

662
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,360
Speaker 1: that was Mark Zuckerberg. That was pretty good. That that

663
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 1: is That is SNL worthy. Thank you, Garrison, because it's

664
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 1: because it's so bad. Alright, um now part that that

665
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: was my own big goal. This is this is part

666
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: two of the metaverse that never was um here at

667
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: it could happen here and we're actually gonna be talking

668
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: about like that. It couldn't wait until we launched portions

669
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,759
Speaker 1: of the show and pretend we never said all this

670
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 1: ship it's going to be the best Garrison, you know, Robert,

671
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: remember remember when I was talking about um seek City

672
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,719
Speaker 1: and all of the virtual venues. I just I just

673
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: I just got a message from our beloved parent company.

674
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: I heart Media. We planned to extend UM shows into

675
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,319
Speaker 1: the Metaverse, which was that which was announced a few

676
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:05,640
Speaker 1: weeks ago. But I thought that the Metaverse was a

677
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:10,399
Speaker 1: pretty good idea. I think we will talk about how

678
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,800
Speaker 1: the metaverse could be cool later in this episode, but

679
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 1: then we'll explain why it won't be. But yeah, I

680
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: heard Media did announce the web three in the Metaverse

681
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,280
Speaker 1: and the newest consumer platforms for I heart media. So sorry,

682
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: I'm I was just working. It's it's working in a

683
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: matrix for reference there, so yes, I see what. Thank you. UM. Anyway,

684
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: so I'm guessing for non Neil Stevenson fans, many of

685
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 1: you probably had not heard of the metaverse before last year.

686
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 1: UM VR. Sure you've heard of VR A R maybe, UM,

687
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: but probably just as like niche gaming technology, you know,

688
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 1: not not this massive, not not like a massive successor

689
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 1: to the Internet. UM. Primarily three companies, Facebook, Epic Games,

690
00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: and Valve uh, the later two being mostly gaming and

691
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: of our companies, UM kind of all decided the best

692
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: way to push their niche VR and software technology into

693
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,799
Speaker 1: the zeitgeist was with this flashy new marketing, and it

694
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: kind of worked. Metavers is now and many more people's

695
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 1: like personal lexicon. But it's not really the metaverse, you know,

696
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 1: like the Walmart thing. It's a way to attract investors

697
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: and drum up free press, but it's still the same

698
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:28,120
Speaker 1: old VR and a R applications of the technology. None

699
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: of these companies are trying to make metaverse a thing

700
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 1: that we actually want or you know, working towards an interconnected, immersive,

701
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: three D open source successor to the Internet. All of

702
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: the different websites and services we use united under one

703
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: digital roof, like a super platform that you know, is

704
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 1: made up of all of these sub platforms. You you

705
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,160
Speaker 1: have social media, online gaming, and all of like the

706
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: you know, ease of life apps, all accessible through the

707
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,239
Speaker 1: same digital space under the same digital economy. That that

708
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,080
Speaker 1: thing isn't happening. People like that, that's not what but

709
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: with money are actually pushing towards, even though they're still

710
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: using the metaverse term. Yeah. There was a great piece

711
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 1: in Wired that came out last month as a part

712
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 1: of their Matrix VR issue. Um. It was called the

713
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 1: metaverse is simply big tech but bigger. It was by

714
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 1: Cecilia di'antazio. It was so it's it's a wonderful piece

715
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a quote

716
00:39:24,040 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: from it right here. Um. By the mid two thousands,

717
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: it became clear that money wasn't in building individual websites

718
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: that we could access on the open web. It was

719
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 1: making information sorders, channels, aggregators, and publishers open enough to

720
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 1: scale with user generated content, but closed enough to reap

721
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 1: enormous profits. This was the evolution from Web one to

722
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 1: Web two. For nearly thirty years, the gravity of the

723
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 1: consolidation has pulled the cyberspace together under the auspice of

724
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 1: fewer and fewer corporate titans. The freaky little planets get

725
00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,759
Speaker 1: drawn together, collide and make bigger planets clade again and

726
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: make stars or even black holes. Facebook eats, Instagram, and WhatsApp.

727
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: Amazon swallows two dozen e commerce sites, and you're left

728
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 1: with these few supermassive players controlling and appropriating the celestial

729
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:15,919
Speaker 1: motion of billions of users. This is how big tech

730
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,640
Speaker 1: got big end. Quote. So yeah, like, now we have

731
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: all of our isolated toolboxes, and they really fight against

732
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: any inter platform integration. You have you know, Microsoft Office,

733
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: and they're they're like off their office suite. You have

734
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: like Google Workspace, you have Apple's own like Air, drop

735
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: Apple Pages, and finally cut pro plus the the nightmare

736
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:42,400
Speaker 1: that is Adobe's subscription tools. Like Google wants you to

737
00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:45,160
Speaker 1: spend all day checking your Gmail, traveling with Google Maps,

738
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,440
Speaker 1: watching videos on YouTube, and browsing on Chrome. Meanwhile, your

739
00:40:48,440 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 1: friend texts you via I message, uses Apple Maps, and

740
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,800
Speaker 1: calls his mom on FaceTime. This is the single person

741
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,480
Speaker 1: in the world uses Microsoft Edge. That is true, But

742
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 1: like this, this of the Internet is the one that

743
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:04,319
Speaker 1: the metaverse is growing out of. Metaverse is just a

744
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: way for tech companies to add VR and a R

745
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 1: and the accompanying extra surveillance and data collection to this

746
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,920
Speaker 1: poor foot to like their own portfolio of proprietary products.

747
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: In order for that to happened, they need to convince

748
00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 1: us that we need headsets for the next evolution of

749
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: the Internet. So it's not surprising that Facebook and Zuckerberg

750
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:26,000
Speaker 1: were the first ones to crack this thing right open.

751
00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: It's they own not only four of the top six

752
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,359
Speaker 1: social media platforms, but also Oculus, which is the most

753
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: popular manufacturer of VR hardware. VR has been relegated to

754
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: niche gaming technology for like basically two decades, and Zuckerberg

755
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 1: decided the best way to sell more of its headsets

756
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,920
Speaker 1: and software was to give the tech a fresh new

757
00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 1: paint job and call it Metaverse and like it's sort

758
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:50,919
Speaker 1: of working that there were approximately nine point four million

759
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,359
Speaker 1: ship min severe headsets in two thousand one, three point

760
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: six million of which were done during the holiday season

761
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: after Facebook's big Metaverse event. It's the affected at the

762
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 1: quest to which is made by Oculus. A Facebook um

763
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,160
Speaker 1: makes up for more than three quarters of all those

764
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: headsets sold. So the Democrat demographics data isn't explicitly available,

765
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,719
Speaker 1: but probably a lot of kids received these things as

766
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: holiday gifts um Oculus Meta. Facebook does not release its

767
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 1: via headset sales figures, but the Oculus app that that

768
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: you need to have to make the headset work shot

769
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: to the top spot in Apple's App Store on Christmas Day.

770
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 1: That was the first time it's ever been in the

771
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: number one app on the App Store, so indicating a

772
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 1: spike and headsets received as holiday gifts. So they're selling

773
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,040
Speaker 1: a lot of headsets, like Oculus is is selling a

774
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: lot of their things. Like you know, I I got

775
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: one a few years ago, but you know, now there's

776
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 1: there's there's more and more of them circulating. Um. But

777
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: you know this, it's still all relegated to VR because

778
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:53,759
Speaker 1: I'm not actually metaverse. You know, arguably the closest thing

779
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: we have to the actual metaverse is stuff like Roadblocks

780
00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: and Minecraft. Now that is still not it's I that's

781
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: not immersive three D. It's you're still looking at it

782
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: through a two D screen. But it is software that

783
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 1: gives users development tools to create their own projects within

784
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: this shared three D space. What separates these things and

785
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 1: basically all attempts from making the metaverse from being the

786
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 1: ideal metaverse is still the proprietary aspect. Everything is isolated islands.

787
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,960
Speaker 1: You can't take your Roadblocks game into Minecraft, right, It

788
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: still is isolated to their specific things. But you know, nevertheless,

789
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: robox Is CEO described the company as the shepherds of

790
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:37,920
Speaker 1: the metaverse in early and he is kind of right,

791
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,799
Speaker 1: and like, that's not that's not totally inaccurate. Um. I'm

792
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 1: gonna quote again from the Wired piece by Cecilia di'antasio. Um,

793
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: if Big Text unchecked growth continues, there will be multiple metaversees,

794
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 1: if there are any at all, Each will be interoperable

795
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: under one Tech Giants giant umbrella the same a Apple

796
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 1: is both a walled garden and a convenient, habitable terrarium

797
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:08,480
Speaker 1: for its dedicated consumers. Users love the seamlessness of Apple's

798
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,759
Speaker 1: proprietary off porting system, the ambiguity of my message, and

799
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 1: Apple presumably loves the commission it can charge on developers

800
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: who sell apps in their app store. So Epic Games

801
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 1: is the other big metaverse proponent right now, you know

802
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,560
Speaker 1: they were. They were actually making announcements about metaverse a

803
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: few months before Facebook did UM and the c a

804
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 1: l Epic Games. Tim sween Ley has been outspoken against

805
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,280
Speaker 1: the metaverse ran by a big tech giant like Apple.

806
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 1: But that's not that's not really genuine because his version

807
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: of the metaverse entails of cyberspace made accessible through Fortnite

808
00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: and Unreal Engine, two things owned by Epic Games. So like,

809
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 1: it's not like he's not actually sincere about creating an

810
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: open source thing. He just wants to be the one

811
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 1: to control it. He's just upset that he thinks someone

812
00:44:57,080 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: else might. Um. He tried to to Apple last year

813
00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:04,839
Speaker 1: and and failed. UM, and the College Fornia judge told

814
00:45:04,920 --> 00:45:07,879
Speaker 1: him that Epic Games seeks a systematic change which would

815
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 1: result in a tremendous monetary gain and wealth. The lawsuit

816
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: is a mechanism to challenge the policies and practices of

817
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:17,160
Speaker 1: Apple and Google, which are an impediment to Mr. Sweeney's

818
00:45:17,239 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 1: vision of the oncoming metaverse. So it's not actually about

819
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:26,120
Speaker 1: like him being against big tech giants and being against

820
00:45:26,120 --> 00:45:29,799
Speaker 1: a big tech giant wren metaverse. It's just that he

821
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:31,120
Speaker 1: doesn't like that he won't be able to make as

822
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 1: much money with it if multiple tech companies work together

823
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 1: to make it. Like that's that's that's really what he's

824
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 1: concerned about. He would rather be in control of this

825
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: thing um because like, yeah, it would be really interesting

826
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 1: to see if multiple tech giants work together to create

827
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,399
Speaker 1: an actual successor to the Internet, like an actual like

828
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: you know how the Internet is just when you open

829
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: up your computer and you have access to the net.

830
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,320
Speaker 1: It's not it's it's not like running a specific program

831
00:45:56,480 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: you get to go on all the things. It would

832
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: be interesting if people actually work to it's creating that.

833
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 1: But no, it's all about creating very isolated operating systems

834
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 1: with a very isolated tool like tool chest, Like you

835
00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: can't access Steam games via the Oculus store. These things don't.

836
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 1: These things don't work. Now you can oculus. You can

837
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 1: use the oculus on Steam games, but not vice versa.

838
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: They're making things the way they're making things because they're

839
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,359
Speaker 1: not trying to design a new Internet because, for one thing,

840
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,520
Speaker 1: the Internet wasn't designed. It was like the result of

841
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: a bunch of people who were doing things that interested them,

842
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: all kind of intersecting and building upon each other. And second,

843
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: like the they're they're not they're making individual profit tunnels.

844
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 1: They're not actually trying to create. Um, they're not trying

845
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 1: to like actually trying to think about what people might

846
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: want next, or what people might might want beyond the Internet.

847
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,239
Speaker 1: They're thinking, how what can we sell that we're not

848
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,000
Speaker 1: currently selling? And that's never going to be the thing

849
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: that figures out. Yeah, I don't know. Yeah. On on

850
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,719
Speaker 1: that point, I'm gonna do one final quote from the

851
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:59,480
Speaker 1: Wired piece. Um, if if these companies dominating cyberspace did

852
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:03,080
Speaker 1: decide to collaborate simultaneously, piecing together opposite sides of the

853
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 1: quilt to create a digital tech style, that would be

854
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: very polite. But is there a world in which Microsoft, Facebook,

855
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:14,799
Speaker 1: Epic Games, Apple, uh Navidia, etcetera combine all of their

856
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: valuable products captain Planet style into an architect of the

857
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 1: metaverse under open source standards. Nobody in particular roops billions

858
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,080
Speaker 1: from That's sort of a tall task to overhaul your

859
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: code and collaborate with your competitors. Why would three or

860
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: four tech giants partner to make a metaverse when they

861
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: already spent decades and billions constructing one of their own.

862
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's never gonna happen. The way the

863
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 1: way society is made, the way internetworks, that's not ever

864
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: going to be a thing. Speaking of companies and things

865
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 1: that you can buy online and advertising, here's some ads

866
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: and we're back, and we're gonna talk about possibly the

867
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: most successful version of air of of their techno aology.

868
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:03,480
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about the actual use cases that are

869
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:09,880
Speaker 1: generating actual profit. So there is a there was a

870
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,200
Speaker 1: tweet a few days ago that I'm just gonna read

871
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: the tweet and then then we'll talk about the implications. Um.

872
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 1: This one very very viral. UM. I caught this very

873
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,920
Speaker 1: early on, though, and I started writing about it, and

874
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,760
Speaker 1: then a whole bunch of articles dropped on the topic.

875
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 1: A farmer in Turkey has fitted his cows with the

876
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 1: virtual reality goggles to make them think they're outside in

877
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: summer pastures. The farmer found out that these pleasant scenes

878
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 1: make the cows happier and produce more milk. Futures metaverse,

879
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:41,760
Speaker 1: So we're gonna talk We're gonna talk about the cow Matrix.

880
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: We're gonna talk about Yeah, yeah, it is to go

881
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 1: back in time and tell people, hey, you know that

882
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: hit movie The Matrix in the future, We're going to

883
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:59,680
Speaker 1: do that, but for more milk to get k. So

884
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: the thing that went viral about it that kind of

885
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: broke the story for a lot of people was this

886
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 1: farmer in Turkey with the pictures of the cows with

887
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: VR goggles on them. Pretty pretty pretty fucked up. UM.

888
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 1: But the idea and the actual technology used came from

889
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:18,320
Speaker 1: came from Russia. UM. Farmers worked together with developers of

890
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: veterinarians and consultants at the Oh boy, here, here's a

891
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:28,040
Speaker 1: Russian town name, or I guess a farm name, Kragskernof.

892
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: I don't know ye that, it's I think we can

893
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 1: we can were we? I think you nailed it. It's

894
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 1: it's it's this farm near Moscow. UM. And they teamed

895
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: up so all these you know farmers, developers and vets

896
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 1: and consultants teamed up to make this cow matrix project

897
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:46,400
Speaker 1: um and there was an official statement from the Moscow

898
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 1: Ministry of Food and Agriculture reads the global trend towards

899
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:56,160
Speaker 1: universal computerization. The significant significantly simplifies work processes in many

900
00:49:56,200 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: areas that and allows you to achieve unprecedented results. Russian

901
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,600
Speaker 1: milk producers keep up with the world standards and are

902
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: even ready to offer the market new and unexpected solutions.

903
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 1: On a farm in the Moscow region, a prototype of

904
00:50:10,280 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: virtual reality glasses were tested to improve the conditions for

905
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:16,800
Speaker 1: keeping cows. Employees of one of the largest farms in

906
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 1: the Moscow region, together with i T specialists, decided to

907
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:23,080
Speaker 1: conduct an experiment studying the influence of virtual reality and

908
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: developed a layout of VR glasses. So the herd donned

909
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 1: these VR systems adapted for the heads of cows. Um

910
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: so and they also had to they had to to

911
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 1: to make the imagery work. They need to tweak the

912
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:41,239
Speaker 1: color palette in the software to make it suitable for

913
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 1: the cow's vision because cows can't see rudder green, so

914
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: there's just shades of yellow and blue. So in order

915
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 1: to replicate what grass click to them, they have to

916
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: you know, change the stuff. Um. But yeah, and then

917
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 1: they programmed a unique summer field simulation program and subjected

918
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: it onto these cows. Uh. The ministry, the Russian Ministry

919
00:51:03,040 --> 00:51:05,200
Speaker 1: of Out Your Culture concluded that the cow matrix does

920
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:09,520
Speaker 1: work UM. In a statement from t A a few

921
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,799
Speaker 1: years ago, officials said environmental conditions have significant have a

922
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 1: significant impact on cow health and as a consequence, the

923
00:51:17,320 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: equality and quantity of milk produced. So you know, like

924
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: this is the thing. I I talked with, um, someone

925
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: I know about this, and they're like, well, if it

926
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:30,239
Speaker 1: makes the cow like actually happier and healthier than like,

927
00:51:30,360 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: what's the problem. And like the problem is is that

928
00:51:33,080 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: like you're gas lighting and entire creature's reality. Like you're

929
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:42,000
Speaker 1: like you're you're you're like not consentually cass lighting their reality.

930
00:51:42,040 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: And I that is I don't like that. I don't eat.

931
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: Everything we do to cows is without their consent. So

932
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:49,680
Speaker 1: I it's one of those things where it's like, but

933
00:51:49,719 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 1: we're also not gaslighting their reality and this like we're

934
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:55,480
Speaker 1: not depriving their senses of what the world is. No,

935
00:51:55,719 --> 00:52:00,279
Speaker 1: this seems like an escalation in our war on the cow. Yeah,

936
00:52:00,719 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: so you know this other farmer in Turkey heard about

937
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 1: this and decided to try it out on his cows.

938
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: Um And yeah, the fund up cow matrix or the

939
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 1: cow tricks does seem to do its job extracting more

940
00:52:12,160 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 1: milk from the cow to increase profitability. Quote from quote

941
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: from the farmer said, uh, we get an average twenty

942
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 1: two liters of milk per day from the cows in

943
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: our farm. The milk average of the two cows that

944
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,720
Speaker 1: wore the VR glasses went up to twenty seven liters.

945
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, when when When the story first broke there

946
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,799
Speaker 1: was the most popular article was from a site called Futurism,

947
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: which made made me made me very depressive about this

948
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 1: about futurismism Garrison. Yeah, and it made me mad enough

949
00:52:43,480 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 1: that I'm going to read some of its to you.

950
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:53,880
Speaker 1: Thank god, I haven't been angry in seconds. That cows

951
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: produced more milk when VR makes them think they're in

952
00:52:57,040 --> 00:53:01,239
Speaker 1: beautiful green pastures. Proves that keeping them in agriculture environments

953
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,960
Speaker 1: isn't healthy nor does it make them happy. Putting them

954
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 1: in a cow matrix does sound a little grim, yes,

955
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,320
Speaker 1: but you can't argue with the results. Oh my god,

956
00:53:10,800 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 1: I can I say you actually can. If all this

957
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,440
Speaker 1: has shown is that like potentially, if you put cows

958
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:21,760
Speaker 1: in this thing during the winter, when it's not sunny

959
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 1: and bright outside, then they are happier. This is not

960
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:28,960
Speaker 1: shown that, for example, taking all cows out of pastures

961
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:32,840
Speaker 1: and sticking them in matrix boxes would make them because

962
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:34,719
Speaker 1: the thing is they're not they're on pastors. They're in

963
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:37,200
Speaker 1: little jail cells with VR goggles on their head. So

964
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,959
Speaker 1: like it's that that was that was the use case.

965
00:53:39,960 --> 00:53:43,080
Speaker 1: And like the quote from the farmers, like they're watching

966
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 1: green pasture and it gives them an emotional boost. They

967
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,000
Speaker 1: are less stressed. Um. And the farmers that he plans

968
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: to be plans to buy ten more It's like you

969
00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: can spend thousands of dollars on specialized cal VR headsets, Um,

970
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: or you can you know, like use that money to

971
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:59,800
Speaker 1: buy more land for the cows to spread out. And

972
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,319
Speaker 1: if we're at that point in society that in order

973
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:04,359
Speaker 1: to make in order to in order to make enough

974
00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 1: cow milk, we need to gaslight cows by overruling their

975
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: senses with a clunky of your headset on their little

976
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,320
Speaker 1: fuzzy faces. Maybe we should start having milk, Maybe we

977
00:54:12,360 --> 00:54:15,760
Speaker 1: should like maybe that's it, Like if we require this

978
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:20,040
Speaker 1: to have milk in our cereal, then nope, no more,

979
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: not not gonna. I'm not gonna do that. I refuse.

980
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 1: That's not like it's already And if you practice, if

981
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: you don't buy milk like like locally from a farm,

982
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:31,279
Speaker 1: you know, so if we're doing this, that just like

983
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:34,279
Speaker 1: immediately checks me out of every like, no, I'm just

984
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:39,840
Speaker 1: fully fully not. Yeah, I think that's kind of evil.

985
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of evil. Like the whole industry

986
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,320
Speaker 1: way by which we produce meat at scale is pretty evil.

987
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:50,319
Speaker 1: But that's an escalation. It's it's the specific thing of

988
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:54,640
Speaker 1: like of of of overruling their reality and senses um

989
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: of another living creature like that is for some reason,

990
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 1: for some reason, that that send them into a way

991
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 1: in order for you to get like meat, And that's

992
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:06,879
Speaker 1: just like turning them into food, but like making their

993
00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 1: living really shitty and then making trying to trick them

994
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: to thinking they're not. Yeah, it's even worse than just

995
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 1: having them live in shitty conditions, I think from an

996
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 1: as standpoint, And maybe it's more pleasant for the animal,

997
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,359
Speaker 1: but from like our standpoint, it's worse to me. Yep.

998
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: So speaking of uh, I don't know, don't cows? Is

999
00:55:28,239 --> 00:55:31,400
Speaker 1: there some segway that we can work this in? You

1000
00:55:31,440 --> 00:55:35,000
Speaker 1: know what does essentially force you to live in an

1001
00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:39,359
Speaker 1: alternate reality that allows you to be more productive for

1002
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:44,360
Speaker 1: the people who make money based on your existence buying

1003
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:46,840
Speaker 1: these products and services that supporting this podcast. I was

1004
00:55:46,880 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: just gonna say podcasts in general do that. But yes, cool,

1005
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,279
Speaker 1: al Right, we are back and my last, my last

1006
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 1: big section here is titled we are the Cows. So

1007
00:55:59,640 --> 00:56:02,200
Speaker 1: this is that's gonna that's gonna give you a sense

1008
00:56:02,239 --> 00:56:04,160
Speaker 1: of how of how we're going to talk about what

1009
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 1: so what what? What the cow Tricks really demonstrates, though,

1010
00:56:11,040 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: is that the end goal of all this is to

1011
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:15,359
Speaker 1: make us the cow? Right? You know we we and

1012
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 1: we already are to some degree with like the Internet

1013
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:20,719
Speaker 1: and smart and smartphones. But this is more. This is

1014
00:56:20,760 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 1: an escalation, right like the people, the ghoules, that Silicon

1015
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,440
Speaker 1: Valley and you know, the whole tech world want they

1016
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 1: want a world where we are forced to don hardware

1017
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:35,560
Speaker 1: rigs that block out our body's senses and replace the

1018
00:56:35,600 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 1: input with digital coded counterfeit. That's that's an Internet that

1019
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 1: tries to convince you that you're inside of it and

1020
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,120
Speaker 1: it is inside of you. That that's that's that's that

1021
00:56:45,239 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: is what they want. Really, Like, even if we get

1022
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:50,200
Speaker 1: the metaverse that I would prefer, you know, like the

1023
00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: mythical open source, interconnected successor to the Internet with all

1024
00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,480
Speaker 1: these different websites, tools and games that I like all

1025
00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:00,439
Speaker 1: together and intuitively accessible through a share digital space. Even

1026
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,680
Speaker 1: if we get that, like, which we won't, And if

1027
00:57:02,680 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 1: there's safeguards to protect digital privacy that are built in,

1028
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 1: which there wouldn't be, that doesn't actually make the real

1029
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: world much better. Like in my opinion, air technology specifically

1030
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: could be really cool, um, but but redesigning the world

1031
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:22,320
Speaker 1: to require headsets, goggles or air glasses would suck, Like now,

1032
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 1: not only for people who can't get the technology right.

1033
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: If if we redesign the world to be like the

1034
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 1: only way to interact with systems is through this digital lens,

1035
00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,520
Speaker 1: that's gonna suck. We we now we already had that

1036
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 1: does some degree with smartphones on the Internet, but this

1037
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: is another escalation of it. And again, like like the cow,

1038
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: it's just gonna be a way to paint over our

1039
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: late capitalist climate disaster of a world. Uh. Metaverse is

1040
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,760
Speaker 1: a tech capitalist solution to our current and pressing political

1041
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:52,160
Speaker 1: and ontological problems. And I have to used the bathroom

1042
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: really badly. Well, I'll talk for a little while. I

1043
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 1: think a big part of what Garrison is saying is

1044
00:57:57,040 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: that instead of relying on these tech industry goougles to

1045
00:58:02,920 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: build the future for you, which is a future in

1046
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 1: which they sell you away to hide from the hell

1047
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 1: that they have made of the world and others like

1048
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:12,840
Speaker 1: them have made of the world. Instead of doing that,

1049
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:15,720
Speaker 1: you've just spend the rest of your life listening to podcasts.

1050
00:58:15,840 --> 00:58:18,600
Speaker 1: Put put blinders on over your eyes, cover up all

1051
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 1: of your senses but your ears, and just exist forever

1052
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:26,120
Speaker 1: in a concoon made entirely of my voice and occasionally

1053
00:58:26,120 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: Garrison and Chris's and Sophie's voice, but mainly my voice.

1054
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:33,120
Speaker 1: And they're saying, not listen to just any podcast but

1055
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,320
Speaker 1: podcasts that you benefit from. I don't think people should

1056
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 1: listen to any podcasts that I don't do. That doesn't

1057
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:43,800
Speaker 1: seem right. So where's my angle on that? Huh? I

1058
00:58:43,840 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: don't know. Um, I don't know how long we should

1059
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: vamp while Garrison just leaves in the middle. I really

1060
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 1: need to I really needed to see. Well, it's okay.

1061
00:58:54,680 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: I just told everybody that we're the metaverse. Now, Garrison

1062
00:58:57,720 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 1: our contact. I drink so much coffee this morning. It

1063
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 1: was a problem. Okay. In similar to all this, you know,

1064
00:59:04,840 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 1: remember the John Carmike interview from Yes That's such a bumber,

1065
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:13,120
Speaker 1: the Doom co creator and former CTO of Ovoculus, Yes

1066
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:16,520
Speaker 1: these bodies are a curse job on the journoun Show.

1067
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 1: He openly said the promise of yr is to make

1068
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,400
Speaker 1: the world you wanted. It is not possible on Earth

1069
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: to give everyone what they would want. Not everyone can

1070
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:28,280
Speaker 1: have Richard Branson private islands. People react negatively to any

1071
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,080
Speaker 1: talk of economics, but it's a resource allocation. You have

1072
00:59:31,080 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: to make decisions about where things go. Economically, you can

1073
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 1: deliver a lot more value to a lot more people.

1074
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:39,160
Speaker 1: In the virtual sense, we can have virtual devices that

1075
00:59:39,240 --> 00:59:41,400
Speaker 1: can get cheap enough that lots and lots of people

1076
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 1: will be able to have these. Not everyone can have

1077
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: a mention, Not everyone can have a home theater. These

1078
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 1: are things we can simulate, though to some degree in

1079
00:59:47,880 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 1: virtual reality, the simulation is not as good as the

1080
00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: as the real thing. If you're rich, you probably have

1081
00:59:52,920 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: your own home theater or mentioned in private island. Good

1082
00:59:55,120 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: for you. You're probably not the people who's going to

1083
00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,760
Speaker 1: benefit the most from this thing. Most of the people

1084
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: in a world lived in cramped quarters and are not,

1085
01:00:03,520 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 1: and they wouldn't and that's not what they would choose

1086
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,280
Speaker 1: to be and if they had a limited resources. There's

1087
01:00:08,320 --> 01:00:10,200
Speaker 1: this piece of art that goes around the internet. It's

1088
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 1: this dystopian kid in a corner drooling with goggles on,

1089
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: with like rainbow pictures. But it's a terrible looking place,

1090
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: and people say, this is the world you're trying to build,

1091
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 1: people plugged into virtual reality and ignoring the world around them,

1092
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:28,080
Speaker 1: And Carmacs responses and encouraging. He says, but is his

1093
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 1: life really better off if he takes the goggles off

1094
01:00:30,280 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: and he's in the horrible place? So I I think

1095
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,560
Speaker 1: Carmack really has convinced himself that virtual reality is a

1096
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,640
Speaker 1: path to making the world a better place. In the interview,

1097
01:00:39,680 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: he compares VR to the invention of like air conditioning.

1098
01:00:43,080 --> 01:00:45,120
Speaker 1: He says, like I live in Dallas, it's a hundred

1099
01:00:45,120 --> 01:00:48,040
Speaker 1: degrees here. We change the world around us in all

1100
01:00:48,120 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 1: that we do. We live in air conditioning. People don't

1101
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 1: generally go, oh, you're not experiencing the world around you

1102
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:55,720
Speaker 1: because of air conditioning. This is what human beings do.

1103
01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 1: We bend the world to our will, and this is

1104
01:00:57,760 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: how things get better by building, by building techn oology

1105
01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 1: and distributing them to people so that they have something

1106
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: better than what we would they would have if they

1107
01:01:04,000 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: didn't exist. Now, if you dig into what he's saying,

1108
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,520
Speaker 1: here's actually a few interesting things. Because for one, yeah,

1109
01:01:09,600 --> 01:01:12,040
Speaker 1: air conditioning is actually kind of bad, like the way

1110
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,640
Speaker 1: we're using it and whatever presents it is a band

1111
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,200
Speaker 1: aid solution to our continual problem of heating up the earth,

1112
01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:20,439
Speaker 1: and it's making the problem worse every single day. Yeah,

1113
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 1: And honestly it's it's yeah, it's like it's like a

1114
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: band aid that also makes the problem worse because a

1115
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 1: C contributes to a lot of energy. Shit. But you know,

1116
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: air conditioning is also an actual material change, right, like

1117
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: it can it can actually help people not die due

1118
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:39,800
Speaker 1: to heat. The metaverseon VR has talked about does not

1119
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:43,400
Speaker 1: improve a middle to lower class person's material conditions, and

1120
01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,520
Speaker 1: to say so demonstrates how disconnected these tech bros. Are

1121
01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 1: from a regular person's reality. The metaphors and VR and

1122
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 1: like virtual worlds are going to be built based on

1123
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,000
Speaker 1: the perception of reality held by those who create them.

1124
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,160
Speaker 1: That's why we're getting shitty digital private movie theaters, make

1125
01:02:00,240 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: mentions and metaverse concerts and h and M n F

1126
01:02:03,400 --> 01:02:06,440
Speaker 1: T stores. They're giving us a simulated version of the

1127
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:08,880
Speaker 1: world that they actually get to live in for real.

1128
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:11,840
Speaker 1: But we can refuse this. We we don't need to

1129
01:02:11,880 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: take them up on this offer. If we're gonna be

1130
01:02:13,800 --> 01:02:18,480
Speaker 1: stuck with with multiple proprietary branded meta verses that are

1131
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 1: made by rich tech bros To mirror a world that

1132
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:22,680
Speaker 1: the that the rich tech bro gets to live in,

1133
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:24,640
Speaker 1: the best thing we can do is funk with it.

1134
01:02:24,760 --> 01:02:27,080
Speaker 1: We can sabotage it from the inside. We need to

1135
01:02:27,160 --> 01:02:30,000
Speaker 1: spam floating dicks at a metaverse concert. This is the

1136
01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: actual thing that needs to happen, because look, we all

1137
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,959
Speaker 1: know terrorism is fun, right, everybody loves terrorism, but there's

1138
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:40,880
Speaker 1: horrible consequences for doing it in the real world. In

1139
01:02:40,920 --> 01:02:44,880
Speaker 1: the metaverse, there's no laws against terrorism. Yet you can

1140
01:02:45,080 --> 01:02:48,080
Speaker 1: terrorize however you want in the metaverse, and it's just trolling.

1141
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 1: And that's fine, so do that much of it as

1142
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: possible until they make it illegal. The concept that would

1143
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 1: go really well with this type of thing is the

1144
01:02:55,720 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 1: poet terrorism concept of this applies like perfectly to this

1145
01:03:00,320 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: idea of how we need to funk with these digital

1146
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,360
Speaker 1: spaces that are trying to be created, because yeah, like

1147
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 1: they're like they're pretty bad. During one Bitcoin consumed all

1148
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:15,200
Speaker 1: of the electrical energy um by equivalent to a country

1149
01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 1: like Argentina um in the Bitcoin network handled like nineties

1150
01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 1: seven million transactions, so this is roughly zero point zero

1151
01:03:25,560 --> 01:03:28,439
Speaker 1: one two per cent of the worldwide volume of non

1152
01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 1: cash transactions. But bitcoin was responsible for zero point five

1153
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:37,960
Speaker 1: four of global electricity consumption on total, which is astronomical,

1154
01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: Like that's all like that's it's either it's ridiculate on average,

1155
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:47,479
Speaker 1: that's like uh like thirteen hundred kill about hours poor

1156
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 1: per bitcoin transaction, which is so much energy. The power

1157
01:03:51,640 --> 01:03:55,680
Speaker 1: consumed by a single Bitcoin transaction on average could power

1158
01:03:55,760 --> 01:03:58,640
Speaker 1: an average US household for one and a half months.

1159
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,640
Speaker 1: It's it is ridiculous how much and how much it's

1160
01:04:02,640 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 1: getting used. And they're trying to build, you know, like

1161
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 1: the Sek City thing. They're trying to build this metaverse

1162
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: off of Crypto, which they're like, I'm sad because like,

1163
01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 1: crypto could be really similar to the metaverse. Crypto could

1164
01:04:15,520 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 1: be really rad, Like crypto could be an actually super

1165
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,320
Speaker 1: red thing, but the way it's being used right now

1166
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: is really environmentally damaging. UM and this this linking of

1167
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 1: Web three, you know, the mythical Web three and the

1168
01:04:28,760 --> 01:04:32,440
Speaker 1: metaverse to crypto is showing like, yeah, it's it's is

1169
01:04:32,520 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: kind of like the band aid solution, where it's not

1170
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: it's it's, it's not it's not actually fixing the problem,

1171
01:04:36,760 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 1: and it's kind of making the problem worse because they're

1172
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: so set on linking it to crypto right now that

1173
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: it's it sucks, like it it's it's, it's it's gonna happen,

1174
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:47,080
Speaker 1: It's gonna suck. What you can do is you can

1175
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,800
Speaker 1: spam Final Fantasy seven porn, you can spam Sonic, the

1176
01:04:49,800 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 1: Hedgehog feet picks. This is this is the only tool

1177
01:04:52,880 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 1: we have. But save for actual terrorism, which we're not

1178
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 1: gonna talk about on this podcast, you can, but we

1179
01:04:59,640 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 1: can't got a poetic terrorism. That is something that you

1180
01:05:01,720 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 1: can do. You can funk with these systems from the

1181
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:07,480
Speaker 1: inside and make them unusable and that's that's really the

1182
01:05:07,520 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 1: only thing. And that's what I'm gonna do in my

1183
01:05:10,840 --> 01:05:14,680
Speaker 1: spare time because it's fine. Yeah, um, do do poetic

1184
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 1: terrorism in the metaverse. Um, go funk it up for them.

1185
01:05:17,800 --> 01:05:20,920
Speaker 1: Um and maybe in the process, here's my dream, garrison

1186
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: that perhaps in the process of sucking it up for them,

1187
01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 1: we build something that we actually like. That's the thing, right, Yeah,

1188
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: that is similar to how the Internet kind of got

1189
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,400
Speaker 1: originally created. Of course, now it's turned into this hellscape,

1190
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: but that'll probably that will probably happen anyway ten years

1191
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: or more for the meta but we can get a

1192
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:40,760
Speaker 1: little bit of fun out of it and we can

1193
01:05:40,800 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 1: have some fun with it like we did on the

1194
01:05:42,440 --> 01:05:45,600
Speaker 1: Internet for a couple of years or it all got

1195
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:48,640
Speaker 1: real bad. So that is that is the metaverse that

1196
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. Um and yeah, So fight against the cow

1197
01:05:52,640 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 1: matrix as best as you can. Do your best out

1198
01:05:58,440 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 1: go the city for the house at the top the world.

1199
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: Make a cowsy on. It's up to us. This is depressing, alright,

1200
01:06:10,880 --> 01:06:20,959
Speaker 1: that's the episode. Look for your children's eyes to see

1201
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 1: the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world

1202
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,680
Speaker 1: for them. You look and see a tree, They see

1203
01:06:27,680 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 1: the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to

1204
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:34,240
Speaker 1: the sky. They see treasure and pebbles. They see a

1205
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: windy path that could lead to adventure, and they see you.

1206
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:42,360
Speaker 1: They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find a forest

1207
01:06:42,400 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 1: near you and start exploring and discover the forest. Dot

1208
01:06:45,440 --> 01:06:47,760
Speaker 1: Org brought to you by the United States Forest Service

1209
01:06:47,800 --> 01:06:52,080
Speaker 1: and the AD Council. Hello, Hello, Hey. I don't know

1210
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:55,280
Speaker 1: if you hurt, but my podcast Checking It has been

1211
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 1: nominated for the d a CP Image Award in the

1212
01:06:58,280 --> 01:07:03,480
Speaker 1: category of Outstanding Lifestyle and Self Help Podcast. I'm grateful

1213
01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:06,120
Speaker 1: for the nomination. I I almost didn't even do a

1214
01:07:06,160 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 1: podcast because I was just wandering. There are thousands of

1215
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,320
Speaker 1: podcasts out there and why is my voice needed. But

1216
01:07:12,400 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 1: a nomination from the end of a CP lets me

1217
01:07:15,360 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 1: know that I made the right choice, and I encourage

1218
01:07:18,400 --> 01:07:20,760
Speaker 1: you to do. Don't worry if there are thousands of

1219
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:24,240
Speaker 1: something else that you want to do. No nobody has

1220
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: your sauce, so listen. You can still vote. Go to

1221
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 1: vote dot in double a CP Image Awards dot net.

1222
01:07:29,240 --> 01:07:33,320
Speaker 1: You have until February five, um nine pm Eastern Standard time,

1223
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:35,920
Speaker 1: and please Listen to my podcast. We're part of the

1224
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: Black Effect podcast Network on the I Heart Radio app

1225
01:07:38,880 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcast. Thank you for checking in.

1226
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,920
Speaker 1: Conquer your new year's resolution to be more productive with

1227
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:57,960
Speaker 1: the Before Breakfast podcast. In each bite sized daily episode,

1228
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:02,080
Speaker 1: time Management and Productivity at Expert Laura Vanderkam teaches you

1229
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,240
Speaker 1: how to make the most of your time, both at

1230
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:07,640
Speaker 1: work and at home. These are the practical suggestions you

1231
01:08:07,720 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 1: need to get more done with your day. Just as

1232
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 1: lifting weights keeps our body strong as we age, learning

1233
01:08:13,560 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: new skills is the mental equivalent of pumping iron. Listen

1234
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: to Before Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to

1235
01:08:27,080 --> 01:08:29,839
Speaker 1: It Could Happen Here, a show about things falling apart

1236
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:32,920
Speaker 1: and how to maybe put them back together a little

1237
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 1: bit better than they were before. I am Robert Evans,

1238
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:38,799
Speaker 1: and with me this week is I guess I'm very

1239
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:44,120
Speaker 1: excited about Chris Begley, author of the Next Apocalypse, The

1240
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: Art and Science of Survival. Chris. Welcome to the show.

1241
01:08:47,960 --> 01:08:51,639
Speaker 1: Thank you now, Chris. Before we get into the meat

1242
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,680
Speaker 1: of our discussion, I have to talk about what you

1243
01:08:54,720 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 1: do for a living, because for years and years it

1244
01:08:56,800 --> 01:08:59,040
Speaker 1: was my job to go around the world. I talked

1245
01:08:59,040 --> 01:09:02,000
Speaker 1: to people and pretty much very continent about their different

1246
01:09:02,040 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 1: interesting jobs. So I've I've talked interviewed everybody from like

1247
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:10,400
Speaker 1: Bravo workers in Nevada to Iraqi counter terrorism special forces

1248
01:09:10,439 --> 01:09:14,040
Speaker 1: in Iraq. And you have probably the coolest job title

1249
01:09:14,080 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 1: if anybody I've met. You're an underwater archaeologist. That's right.

1250
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 1: How did you? Um? How did you? I mean? Was

1251
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:25,040
Speaker 1: that was it just kind of like were you kind

1252
01:09:25,040 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 1: of laser focused on that goal or was it more

1253
01:09:26,920 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 1: you were interested in archaeology and you loved diving, and

1254
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 1: so the two just kind of made sense together. Yeah. Well,

1255
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:36,440
Speaker 1: I started out as ah what now called a terrestrial archaeologist,

1256
01:09:36,800 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, working on the land as most people do,

1257
01:09:40,040 --> 01:09:44,879
Speaker 1: and worked for years in Central America. Honduras was my focus,

1258
01:09:44,920 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 1: as you saw in the book, but other other places

1259
01:09:48,400 --> 01:09:52,760
Speaker 1: uh nearby as well, And really it was about I

1260
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:56,840
Speaker 1: would say, I don't know, twelve thirteen, fourteen years ago.

1261
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:00,760
Speaker 1: I wanted to just branch out and little bit from that.

1262
01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:04,920
Speaker 1: And one of the things that that all archaeologists have

1263
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 1: seen is that you know, there are certain things that

1264
01:10:07,200 --> 01:10:11,439
Speaker 1: really just aren't as explored as other things, and one

1265
01:10:11,479 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: was all of the archaeological resources underwater. I mean, we

1266
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 1: hear about underwater archaeology or maritime archaeology in the Mediterranean, right,

1267
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: you know, a Roman shipwrecks and all that, But there

1268
01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:27,479
Speaker 1: are big chunks of the world where we've done very

1269
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,559
Speaker 1: little to see what's out there, you know. And one

1270
01:10:30,600 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 1: other interesting thing about that is there are many different

1271
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:35,639
Speaker 1: things you could look at underwater, but often we look

1272
01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: at shipwrecks. And shipwrecks are different from regular archaeological sites

1273
01:10:40,479 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 1: because you know, shipwreck is a moment in time that

1274
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 1: all happened in in one instance, and so when we're

1275
01:10:48,520 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 1: looking at that kind of archaeological site, we see this

1276
01:10:51,800 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 1: snapshot that we don't see when we look at a

1277
01:10:54,479 --> 01:10:57,960
Speaker 1: place that was occupied over hundreds of years. So you know.

1278
01:10:58,080 --> 01:11:01,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, so that wasn't my focus, but it became, uh,

1279
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 1: sort of somewhere I wanted to go as I learn

1280
01:11:05,000 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 1: more about And one of the things I find really interesting,

1281
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:13,280
Speaker 1: the basic thrust of your book is that the way

1282
01:11:13,280 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: in which we think about civilizations falling or collapsing or

1283
01:11:18,000 --> 01:11:20,599
Speaker 1: how however you you know, the ways in which folks

1284
01:11:20,600 --> 01:11:22,800
Speaker 1: tend to discuss that when we're talking about the Maya

1285
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:27,600
Speaker 1: or the Romans. Um is very different from what archaeologists

1286
01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:30,559
Speaker 1: who tend to study these cultures how they tend to

1287
01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:34,000
Speaker 1: perceive of of what you might more accurately call a

1288
01:11:34,080 --> 01:11:37,439
Speaker 1: decline or or you know, a decentralization or whatever. I

1289
01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 1: think there's a number of terms that we could use.

1290
01:11:39,479 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 1: But these ideas that like you have these civilizations and

1291
01:11:42,479 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 1: then they suddenly fall apart um are not really based

1292
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:50,040
Speaker 1: in rigorous historical analysis usually. UM. There's some cases as

1293
01:11:50,080 --> 01:11:54,240
Speaker 1: as you go into the book, UM, and I'm I'm

1294
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:57,120
Speaker 1: I'm interested in that because you're kind of coming at

1295
01:11:57,160 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: from a very rigorous historical standpoint in this book, UM,

1296
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:02,679
Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff that we talked about on

1297
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:05,200
Speaker 1: on this show in a more contemporary sense. And I'm

1298
01:12:05,240 --> 01:12:08,280
Speaker 1: kind of wondering how the idea to write this sort

1299
01:12:08,280 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 1: of came together because you started it before the COVID

1300
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:15,040
Speaker 1: nineteen pandemic. Obviously that had an impact on the book.

1301
01:12:15,040 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: It's it's it's all over there, yeah yeah, UM, well,

1302
01:12:20,600 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 1: I've I was. One of the things that I do

1303
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:31,599
Speaker 1: is teach the wilderness survival courses and UM, and I

1304
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:33,920
Speaker 1: don't do that as frequently as some people that that

1305
01:12:34,040 --> 01:12:37,600
Speaker 1: sort of dedicate themselves to that do but but but

1306
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 1: I do it fairly frequently. And um, it became obvious

1307
01:12:41,680 --> 01:12:45,479
Speaker 1: to me over time that people were taking these courses

1308
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:48,559
Speaker 1: not just to learn how to deal with being lost

1309
01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 1: out in the wilderness, which is sort of was my vision.

1310
01:12:51,880 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 1: What do you do if you unexpectedly have to spend

1311
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:58,120
Speaker 1: a night out in the woods or or two or three. Um,

1312
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 1: they were really thinking about what about do when things

1313
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:02,479
Speaker 1: fall apart? How do I take care of myself? How

1314
01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:05,479
Speaker 1: do I take care of my family using these skills

1315
01:13:05,520 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 1: that you could use in a situation where things had

1316
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:12,160
Speaker 1: fallen apart? And that sort of oriented me towards the

1317
01:13:13,120 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 1: fact that you know, people were worrying about the future.

1318
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:17,559
Speaker 1: I mean I could see it. I could see it

1319
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:21,280
Speaker 1: in my students at university. I could see it you know,

1320
01:13:21,479 --> 01:13:24,880
Speaker 1: in the people's faces at the supermarket. You know, there

1321
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:30,479
Speaker 1: was something going on there that was um uh, there

1322
01:13:30,600 --> 01:13:32,600
Speaker 1: was concerning people, and a lot of it had to

1323
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:36,040
Speaker 1: do with climate change, and that I think was was

1324
01:13:36,120 --> 01:13:40,720
Speaker 1: the focus initially for me writing this um because what

1325
01:13:40,800 --> 01:13:46,440
Speaker 1: I saw was you know, sort of the prepper community

1326
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 1: and survivalist community looking at things that really seemed to

1327
01:13:50,360 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 1: be short term and didn't at all focus on what

1328
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:58,479
Speaker 1: we really saw historically. So I think that my um

1329
01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,240
Speaker 1: my initial motive to motivation to write this was really

1330
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:07,000
Speaker 1: just seeing this concern that was that was growing among

1331
01:14:07,160 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 1: people about what the future is going to look like.

1332
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:12,240
Speaker 1: And then of course COVID hit and that that that

1333
01:14:12,360 --> 01:14:16,280
Speaker 1: really brought all this to the to the forefront. And

1334
01:14:16,320 --> 01:14:18,679
Speaker 1: are there any specific ways in your mind that you

1335
01:14:18,840 --> 01:14:22,840
Speaker 1: can you kind of think on how COVID altered what

1336
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:25,200
Speaker 1: you were what you were writing, or how you conceived

1337
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:26,960
Speaker 1: of what you were writing. Like once you you know,

1338
01:14:27,000 --> 01:14:29,280
Speaker 1: you you have this kind of vision that's inspired by

1339
01:14:29,360 --> 01:14:31,720
Speaker 1: the things that you're seeing and hearing, particularly in these

1340
01:14:31,720 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 1: wilderness survival courses, and then as you get started, we

1341
01:14:35,040 --> 01:14:38,559
Speaker 1: have this horrible, horrible plague hit and a number of

1342
01:14:38,560 --> 01:14:40,760
Speaker 1: of of things start to happen very quickly. How does

1343
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:44,160
Speaker 1: that kind of alter the trajectory of what you're writing? Yeah,

1344
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:47,479
Speaker 1: I guess the you know, the there were some just

1345
01:14:47,520 --> 01:14:52,160
Speaker 1: sort of practical logistical things obviously, right, Uh, some things

1346
01:14:52,160 --> 01:14:55,680
Speaker 1: that I intended to do or ways that I had

1347
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 1: hoped to interact with folks in the course of interviewing

1348
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: people for the book or writing it, you know, wasn't

1349
01:15:01,040 --> 01:15:04,719
Speaker 1: going to be possible. But in terms of thinking about

1350
01:15:04,720 --> 01:15:08,960
Speaker 1: how things happened, the big thing for me was, um,

1351
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:13,160
Speaker 1: how it became politicized so quickly. You know, that was

1352
01:15:15,280 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 1: you know in the um you know you know, well,

1353
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,720
Speaker 1: now you see all of the memes you know, uh

1354
01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:25,719
Speaker 1: talking about the zombie movies where half the population doesn't

1355
01:15:25,720 --> 01:15:28,439
Speaker 1: believe their zombies or something. You know, that was never

1356
01:15:28,600 --> 01:15:33,120
Speaker 1: really on the radar, at least not on my radar before.

1357
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:39,879
Speaker 1: And so now um, um, you know it is because clearly,

1358
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:43,000
Speaker 1: not only do these things happen and then you have

1359
01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:45,600
Speaker 1: a group of people that are dealing with it, you

1360
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 1: have obviously the dynamics within the group, which which of

1361
01:15:49,520 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 1: course we knew, but to see it play out in

1362
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:55,200
Speaker 1: this way, in this sort of dramatic way, that really

1363
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:59,120
Speaker 1: altered the course of history. I mean, the pandemic could

1364
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:03,839
Speaker 1: have turned out, uh, you know differently, but it didn't.

1365
01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:06,360
Speaker 1: And part of the reason that didn't was because of

1366
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 1: the way folks reacted to it. And I'm wondering because

1367
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:12,840
Speaker 1: a part a chunk of your career, in a big

1368
01:16:12,920 --> 01:16:15,120
Speaker 1: chunk of this book is kind of looking at in

1369
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:19,680
Speaker 1: places like Honduras where these these civilizations entered decline, and

1370
01:16:19,680 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 1: in some cases it was very sharp, like within a

1371
01:16:21,880 --> 01:16:24,960
Speaker 1: fairly short period of time, ninety percent of the population

1372
01:16:25,479 --> 01:16:30,759
Speaker 1: leaves or you know, UH is deceased. UM. And you

1373
01:16:30,760 --> 01:16:32,240
Speaker 1: you see like the crumbling of a lot of these

1374
01:16:32,240 --> 01:16:35,519
Speaker 1: governmental institutions and whatnot that had had organized life for

1375
01:16:35,560 --> 01:16:39,519
Speaker 1: a while. You see the pretty significant migrations. UM. Is

1376
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:41,360
Speaker 1: there any ways in which kind of the last two

1377
01:16:41,479 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 1: years as an archaeologist has changed or informed how you

1378
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:49,439
Speaker 1: were thinking about um, these places that you've been you've

1379
01:16:49,479 --> 01:16:51,439
Speaker 1: been studying, in these moments in history that you've been

1380
01:16:51,479 --> 01:16:55,679
Speaker 1: studying for so long. Yeah, in some ways it brings

1381
01:16:55,720 --> 01:16:58,640
Speaker 1: some of it into a little sharper focus. For instance,

1382
01:16:58,800 --> 01:17:02,360
Speaker 1: you know, one of the things it that archaeologists had

1383
01:17:02,360 --> 01:17:05,480
Speaker 1: long talked about was that during these declines or these collapses,

1384
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:08,720
Speaker 1: that it's uneven. It's not equal for everybody. It's not

1385
01:17:09,680 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 1: equal over space and time, and certainly depending on your

1386
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:17,600
Speaker 1: position in society. UM, there's different ways in which it

1387
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:22,800
Speaker 1: it plays out for you, UM. You know, and that's

1388
01:17:22,840 --> 01:17:26,439
Speaker 1: something that we see. We see it from UM. You know,

1389
01:17:26,479 --> 01:17:32,559
Speaker 1: access to vaccines to UM. Well, I mean, even things

1390
01:17:32,640 --> 01:17:35,560
Speaker 1: like you know, if we think about folks that are unvaccinated,

1391
01:17:35,600 --> 01:17:37,960
Speaker 1: Now there's a you know, a chunk of those people

1392
01:17:38,040 --> 01:17:42,200
Speaker 1: that are doing it for a sort of political reasons

1393
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 1: or other ideological reason. But there's also a big, uh,

1394
01:17:48,479 --> 01:17:51,640
Speaker 1: a big group of those folks that are doing it

1395
01:17:51,720 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 1: because history shows that they should be wary of anything

1396
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:02,240
Speaker 1: that UH society he tries to do to them. And so,

1397
01:18:02,439 --> 01:18:05,200
Speaker 1: you know, you have these these things playing out for

1398
01:18:05,280 --> 01:18:09,240
Speaker 1: different ways for um, you know, people from different regions

1399
01:18:09,240 --> 01:18:12,360
Speaker 1: of the country or political orientations or race or ethnicity

1400
01:18:12,600 --> 01:18:16,280
Speaker 1: or um, you know, a whole variety of things. And

1401
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:22,400
Speaker 1: so seeing how uneven it was the pandemic UH makes

1402
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:26,439
Speaker 1: me think that, you know, it certainly was that way then. UH.

1403
01:18:26,560 --> 01:18:29,560
Speaker 1: The other thing that we see when we look archaeologically

1404
01:18:29,680 --> 01:18:33,040
Speaker 1: is that it's these big structures or systems that collapse.

1405
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:37,439
Speaker 1: That really is the collapse and the things that cause

1406
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:42,200
Speaker 1: it initially, whether it's I don't know, deforestation or drought

1407
01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: or warfare or even a natural disaster of some sort

1408
01:18:47,800 --> 01:18:52,879
Speaker 1: um that really it's the way people respond to those

1409
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:59,719
Speaker 1: and the way these uh systems deal with those changes

1410
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:04,400
Speaker 1: that really creates the problems that you see later on.

1411
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:06,519
Speaker 1: And we can see that now. For instance, one of

1412
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:09,360
Speaker 1: the things that we're talking a lot now about his

1413
01:19:09,720 --> 01:19:15,200
Speaker 1: supply chain issues, right, And this is a result of COVID,

1414
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:18,559
Speaker 1: But it's not a direct result. I mean, it's not

1415
01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:21,559
Speaker 1: because the crews on the ships are at the ports

1416
01:19:21,680 --> 01:19:28,679
Speaker 1: or truck drivers have uh are sick. It's because of

1417
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:32,400
Speaker 1: the ways in which all of this disrupted things, and

1418
01:19:33,360 --> 01:19:39,640
Speaker 1: especially when we get these really efficient but inflexible systems,

1419
01:19:39,680 --> 01:19:42,920
Speaker 1: like a lot of our shipping system was um, these

1420
01:19:42,960 --> 01:19:48,160
Speaker 1: disruptions result in really big changes. So you know, you

1421
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:51,080
Speaker 1: have these huge ships that can only dock a few ports.

1422
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:56,519
Speaker 1: Once that gets backed up, you can't really shift and adjust.

1423
01:19:57,240 --> 01:20:00,920
Speaker 1: And so that's I think for me, just a lot

1424
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:03,320
Speaker 1: of it is seeing it play out where we see

1425
01:20:04,080 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 1: the fact that we have something that sets it all off,

1426
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:12,360
Speaker 1: but then we have the response of the system or

1427
01:20:12,400 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 1: the structure that really creates the day to day impact.

1428
01:20:18,400 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 1: I suspect a big part of kind of why we

1429
01:20:20,880 --> 01:20:24,920
Speaker 1: conceive popularly of of quote unquote collapses in the past

1430
01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 1: is based on, as you talk about extensively in your book,

1431
01:20:28,160 --> 01:20:29,519
Speaker 1: the way in which we look at it kind of

1432
01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:32,320
Speaker 1: in fiction, and in fiction it's nearly always like the

1433
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,560
Speaker 1: societal equivalent of a bullet in the head. Right you

1434
01:20:34,720 --> 01:20:36,519
Speaker 1: the zombie plague is out, and then a couple of

1435
01:20:36,600 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: days everything's fallen apart. And the point that you make

1436
01:20:40,280 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 1: in this is that it's probably I mean, this isn't

1437
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:44,920
Speaker 1: exactly the phrase, but it's probably better to look at

1438
01:20:44,920 --> 01:20:47,320
Speaker 1: it kind of like it's like a tumor or something

1439
01:20:47,360 --> 01:20:50,840
Speaker 1: where the things are set in motion that are going

1440
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 1: to lead to things falling apart much much, um, at

1441
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:57,840
Speaker 1: a point before a lot of people probably would have

1442
01:20:57,880 --> 01:21:00,160
Speaker 1: noticed it. You know, the problem can be too are

1443
01:21:00,240 --> 01:21:06,320
Speaker 1: gone um before it's really obvious. Um. Yeah, yeah, I

1444
01:21:06,360 --> 01:21:08,599
Speaker 1: think that's that's a good point. And that's the that's

1445
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:14,040
Speaker 1: really something that you know, even with COVID, it shows that,

1446
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:19,160
Speaker 1: right Um. You know, the problems are not only the

1447
01:21:19,200 --> 01:21:23,120
Speaker 1: existence or the appearance of this virus, but first of all,

1448
01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:27,320
Speaker 1: how did it appear? And that has to do with um,

1449
01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:31,320
Speaker 1: you know, decreasing habitat for wild animals and the proximity

1450
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:36,000
Speaker 1: of human populations to animals. And then we have increased

1451
01:21:36,360 --> 01:21:40,400
Speaker 1: sort of uh communication and travel, which you know is

1452
01:21:40,439 --> 01:21:43,120
Speaker 1: not a bad thing obviously, but it is going to

1453
01:21:43,320 --> 01:21:46,960
Speaker 1: change the way in which these things spread. But then

1454
01:21:47,040 --> 01:21:49,960
Speaker 1: we have the way that we divide ourselves up into

1455
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:54,559
Speaker 1: nation states, and the way in which we have you know,

1456
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:59,160
Speaker 1: economic systems that are working in certain ways. So you know,

1457
01:21:59,240 --> 01:22:02,439
Speaker 1: the vaccine get here but not there, and and and

1458
01:22:02,479 --> 01:22:07,720
Speaker 1: so forth. Um. But yeah, that's a you know that

1459
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:09,840
Speaker 1: I think is at the heart of it. You have

1460
01:22:09,960 --> 01:22:12,760
Speaker 1: these things that have been set in place. You have

1461
01:22:12,840 --> 01:22:15,920
Speaker 1: these parameters in which you're going to have to react,

1462
01:22:16,000 --> 01:22:19,880
Speaker 1: and they really set um the stage for what's going

1463
01:22:19,920 --> 01:22:22,440
Speaker 1: to happen. You know, you have it's like looking backwards

1464
01:22:22,479 --> 01:22:24,880
Speaker 1: four or five moves in chest to see how did

1465
01:22:24,920 --> 01:22:27,800
Speaker 1: we get in this situation. It's not just because of

1466
01:22:27,880 --> 01:22:32,440
Speaker 1: that last move, it's because of the last ten. Yeah.

1467
01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:35,400
Speaker 1: And one of the things that you bring up that

1468
01:22:35,479 --> 01:22:37,599
Speaker 1: I like is that if you're looking for kind of

1469
01:22:38,000 --> 01:22:41,439
Speaker 1: a historical example of a collapse that that most mirrors

1470
01:22:41,479 --> 01:22:43,040
Speaker 1: the way we tend to look at it in fiction,

1471
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 1: it would probably be what happened to the indigenous population

1472
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:52,280
Speaker 1: of particularly like North America um after the arrival of colonizers,

1473
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:55,160
Speaker 1: which was by a lot of accounts like ninety of

1474
01:22:55,200 --> 01:22:57,920
Speaker 1: the population dead within a fairly short span of time,

1475
01:22:57,960 --> 01:23:03,800
Speaker 1: primarily from disease. This this rely rapid and cataclysmic um

1476
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:06,559
Speaker 1: um shock. But also at the same time, as much

1477
01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:09,640
Speaker 1: as it does seem to mirror some of our you know,

1478
01:23:09,720 --> 01:23:12,599
Speaker 1: kind of fictional depictions of of viral outbreaks or other

1479
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:16,479
Speaker 1: sort of of of societal calamities, um, the ways in

1480
01:23:16,520 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 1: which people survived don't really in any meaningful way mirror

1481
01:23:21,160 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 1: the are are kind of popular fictional depiction of like

1482
01:23:24,320 --> 01:23:26,800
Speaker 1: who makes it out of that sort of a situation,

1483
01:23:26,840 --> 01:23:30,320
Speaker 1: you know, the the strapping military veteran with a rifle

1484
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:33,280
Speaker 1: and a stockpile of food or whatever. You know. Yeah, yeah,

1485
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 1: that that. You know, I would say that certainly having

1486
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:43,200
Speaker 1: these skills to keep yourself alive is important, and it

1487
01:23:43,360 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: is true that if you don't make it through the

1488
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 1: first thirty days, you're not gonna make it through the

1489
01:23:47,120 --> 01:23:52,720
Speaker 1: next thirty years. But um yeah, the way people survive

1490
01:23:52,960 --> 01:23:57,040
Speaker 1: outside of a few days, perhaps when they're dealing with

1491
01:23:57,080 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 1: some of these what we would think of a serve

1492
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,479
Speaker 1: Bible situations, this is a community. I mean, we see

1493
01:24:03,520 --> 01:24:06,600
Speaker 1: that with uh, you know, when we look at the

1494
01:24:06,920 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 1: Native American history in North America. You know, even as

1495
01:24:12,040 --> 01:24:18,320
Speaker 1: populations and entire groups were being decimated by these diseases,

1496
01:24:18,360 --> 01:24:23,920
Speaker 1: sometimes a village in a single winner from a wave

1497
01:24:24,120 --> 01:24:28,519
Speaker 1: or waves of disease. Even in the in the face

1498
01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:36,719
Speaker 1: of that, they reconstituted themselves as communities, sometimes um, multi

1499
01:24:36,760 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 1: ethnic or multicultural communities. I mean, there was a whole

1500
01:24:39,600 --> 01:24:43,639
Speaker 1: variety of ways in which people regrouped. And I think

1501
01:24:43,680 --> 01:24:46,360
Speaker 1: that that, you know, that was the message and you know,

1502
01:24:46,439 --> 01:24:50,400
Speaker 1: part of the uh, this image of you know, grabbing

1503
01:24:50,439 --> 01:24:56,200
Speaker 1: your bugout bag and heading out to the hills is um,

1504
01:24:56,200 --> 01:25:00,120
Speaker 1: it just doesn't work, you know. And and the is

1505
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:05,720
Speaker 1: the stockpiling you know as well. Um, And so yeah,

1506
01:25:05,760 --> 01:25:10,280
Speaker 1: when we look archaeologically, you know, we always see communitions. Yeah,

1507
01:25:10,280 --> 01:25:12,519
Speaker 1: and that's something we really try to encourage people do

1508
01:25:12,600 --> 01:25:16,360
Speaker 1: on this show, where obviously some amount of disaster preparation

1509
01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:18,960
Speaker 1: is is not just helpful, but is I think kind

1510
01:25:18,960 --> 01:25:22,040
Speaker 1: of morally necessary if it's at all financially feasible for you,

1511
01:25:22,040 --> 01:25:25,360
Speaker 1: you know it is you are it is absolutely the

1512
01:25:25,439 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 1: right thing to do to try to have two three

1513
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:31,320
Speaker 1: weeks of of relatively storable food, some water, um, you know,

1514
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:35,160
Speaker 1: some other emergency supplies. But kind of beyond that, as

1515
01:25:35,200 --> 01:25:37,839
Speaker 1: you said that first, like thirty days if you actually

1516
01:25:37,880 --> 01:25:40,160
Speaker 1: want not just to live, but to have you know,

1517
01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:43,360
Speaker 1: life have any kind of meaning, Um, you have to

1518
01:25:43,360 --> 01:25:48,040
Speaker 1: be thinking in a community oriented situation. Yeah, I mean,

1519
01:25:48,080 --> 01:25:50,880
Speaker 1: because ultimately, you know, what's the difference between two weeks

1520
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:54,280
Speaker 1: or two months worth of food? Right, you know it's

1521
01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:58,960
Speaker 1: gonna be gone and you know you have to come back.

1522
01:25:59,040 --> 01:26:02,280
Speaker 1: You know. One of the things in researching for this

1523
01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:05,000
Speaker 1: for this book, one of the things I looked at

1524
01:26:05,120 --> 01:26:10,320
Speaker 1: was the history of how we made a living, uh

1525
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,320
Speaker 1: and the history of agriculture. And one of the things

1526
01:26:13,360 --> 01:26:16,479
Speaker 1: that you know that that I found was that the

1527
01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:21,720
Speaker 1: last time that humans lived where a significant portion of

1528
01:26:21,720 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 1: the population was hunters and gatherers that is, not farmers,

1529
01:26:27,479 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 1: there was like one of the current population, you know,

1530
01:26:31,760 --> 01:26:35,479
Speaker 1: less than five million people in the world. So even

1531
01:26:36,000 --> 01:26:44,760
Speaker 1: a catastrophic disaster that you know, reduced us to ofcent

1532
01:26:44,840 --> 01:26:47,800
Speaker 1: of current population, we're still going to have more people

1533
01:26:47,800 --> 01:26:51,640
Speaker 1: in the world than ever lived without agriculture. And so

1534
01:26:51,720 --> 01:26:57,760
Speaker 1: we're gonna have to uh recreate some of these systems.

1535
01:26:57,920 --> 01:27:00,680
Speaker 1: And you know, agriculture buying just going to be a

1536
01:27:00,720 --> 01:27:04,400
Speaker 1: community based, yeah system it's uh, I mean, you can

1537
01:27:04,439 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 1: garden on your own, but but the way that it

1538
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:11,519
Speaker 1: needs to work is is going to be a collective. Yeah,

1539
01:27:11,520 --> 01:27:13,960
Speaker 1: and I think, um, yeah, this is we talk a

1540
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:16,479
Speaker 1: lot about. I actually live with a couple of wilderness

1541
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,120
Speaker 1: survival instructors and we have about an acre of land

1542
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:21,760
Speaker 1: and we do a decent amount of of of you

1543
01:27:21,800 --> 01:27:25,559
Speaker 1: know gardening, you know, animal husbandry and that sort of thing,

1544
01:27:25,600 --> 01:27:27,840
Speaker 1: and it it is. Um I've I've spent a lot

1545
01:27:27,840 --> 01:27:29,719
Speaker 1: of my life on farm, so I've kind of always

1546
01:27:29,760 --> 01:27:31,840
Speaker 1: had an appreciation for how much work it is. And

1547
01:27:32,120 --> 01:27:34,160
Speaker 1: one of the things we try to talk about on

1548
01:27:34,160 --> 01:27:37,519
Speaker 1: this show regularly is the value of even just having

1549
01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:41,240
Speaker 1: a garden of things like guerrilla gardening. Not because I'm

1550
01:27:41,280 --> 01:27:42,559
Speaker 1: not one of those people who thinks that, like, oh,

1551
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:45,799
Speaker 1: we need to replace industrial agriculture with like individuals tending

1552
01:27:45,840 --> 01:27:48,680
Speaker 1: small gardens. That's not going to work, but because the

1553
01:27:48,760 --> 01:27:52,040
Speaker 1: more you kind of interface directly with the concept of

1554
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:54,880
Speaker 1: growing food and with working with other people in order

1555
01:27:54,920 --> 01:27:57,240
Speaker 1: to do that, the more prepared you are for any

1556
01:27:57,320 --> 01:27:59,320
Speaker 1: number of things that could go wrong, Like even if

1557
01:27:59,360 --> 01:28:01,519
Speaker 1: those things don't involve the crunching the food supply lines,

1558
01:28:01,560 --> 01:28:03,519
Speaker 1: the connections you make with people doing that sort of

1559
01:28:03,560 --> 01:28:06,639
Speaker 1: work will be more valuable than an extra two months

1560
01:28:06,640 --> 01:28:09,040
Speaker 1: of stockpiles you know, when you're in your food buckets

1561
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:12,800
Speaker 1: or whatever, you're Alex Jones dried food buckets. Yeah, well,

1562
01:28:12,880 --> 01:28:15,240
Speaker 1: that's that's absolutely right. And you know, one of the

1563
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:18,720
Speaker 1: things that occurred to me looking into the past at

1564
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:22,320
Speaker 1: some of these uh, you know, collapses or declines that

1565
01:28:22,400 --> 01:28:26,719
Speaker 1: had happened in the past, was that a huge percent

1566
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:34,200
Speaker 1: of the population um um was engaged directly in agriculture,

1567
01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:38,080
Speaker 1: and you know here in the well in the industrialized

1568
01:28:38,120 --> 01:28:40,800
Speaker 1: world is typically less than five percent less than that

1569
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:44,520
Speaker 1: even in the United States. Most people like me don't

1570
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:48,240
Speaker 1: uh don't engage in it. And you know, I know

1571
01:28:48,600 --> 01:28:52,120
Speaker 1: something about gardening, perhaps like everybody else, but I'm not

1572
01:28:52,160 --> 01:28:56,200
Speaker 1: a farmer. I don't really have that collected wisdom. And

1573
01:28:56,240 --> 01:29:01,839
Speaker 1: if I had to do that, um, you know, probably

1574
01:29:01,880 --> 01:29:04,120
Speaker 1: it's like a lot of other things. When everything is easy,

1575
01:29:04,200 --> 01:29:07,120
Speaker 1: it's not so bad. When you know when it goes bad,

1576
01:29:07,280 --> 01:29:11,000
Speaker 1: it really helps to know what you're doing. Um. And

1577
01:29:11,120 --> 01:29:15,280
Speaker 1: of course everything goes bad sooner or later, and so um.

1578
01:29:15,320 --> 01:29:20,240
Speaker 1: You know, that's that kind of things very important, you know.

1579
01:29:20,280 --> 01:29:26,519
Speaker 1: And I think also there could certainly local systems and

1580
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:32,000
Speaker 1: some flexible scale would be really important, you know. So

1581
01:29:32,160 --> 01:29:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm also like you a proponent of of this sort

1582
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:38,000
Speaker 1: of thing. You know, if we can get everybody to

1583
01:29:38,040 --> 01:29:40,960
Speaker 1: participate in ways that we aren't now, that will give

1584
01:29:41,000 --> 01:29:43,439
Speaker 1: us some flexibility. What if what if we do have

1585
01:29:43,560 --> 01:29:46,439
Speaker 1: supply chain problems, Well, we have a number of people

1586
01:29:46,439 --> 01:29:49,400
Speaker 1: in the community that are already doing some of this

1587
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:53,800
Speaker 1: stuff that could maybe be expanded or get us through

1588
01:29:53,880 --> 01:29:57,479
Speaker 1: this period. So yeah, yeah, I mean, even if you're

1589
01:29:57,520 --> 01:29:59,840
Speaker 1: not like dealing with everyone's caloric needs, it could be

1590
01:29:59,840 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 1: as simple as because of where you're located. You know,

1591
01:30:02,640 --> 01:30:05,280
Speaker 1: when when the oranges and other kind of fruits aren't

1592
01:30:05,320 --> 01:30:07,040
Speaker 1: able to come in from a supply line thing, there's

1593
01:30:07,160 --> 01:30:09,439
Speaker 1: a shortage of vitamin C and then knowing how to

1594
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:12,120
Speaker 1: make teata pine needles or whatever, or what kind of

1595
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:14,400
Speaker 1: plants have a lot of vitamin C. You know, even

1596
01:30:14,400 --> 01:30:18,519
Speaker 1: though you're not you're not focused on meeting everyone's you know,

1597
01:30:18,800 --> 01:30:21,400
Speaker 1: entire caloric needs through small scale farming, but you can

1598
01:30:21,479 --> 01:30:24,000
Speaker 1: deal with the a nutrient deficiency or something because you

1599
01:30:24,080 --> 01:30:27,439
Speaker 1: understand your environment a little bit better. Yeah, and you know,

1600
01:30:27,560 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 1: probably quality of life isxues to I mean, you know,

1601
01:30:30,600 --> 01:30:35,040
Speaker 1: for uh, you know, kids and u you know, there's

1602
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:38,640
Speaker 1: there's lots of lots of ways you can survive that

1603
01:30:38,680 --> 01:30:42,559
Speaker 1: are pretty miserable, So you want to you want to

1604
01:30:42,560 --> 01:30:47,280
Speaker 1: try to uh direct it towards those that are desirable.

1605
01:30:47,960 --> 01:30:50,360
Speaker 1: And I think part of that is having this flexibility,

1606
01:30:50,400 --> 01:30:54,160
Speaker 1: having this knowledge, having a lot of people involved in things.

1607
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:55,759
Speaker 1: And you know, one of the things I talked about

1608
01:30:55,760 --> 01:30:59,840
Speaker 1: in my book or ideas of you know, diversity and inclusion,

1609
01:31:00,000 --> 01:31:04,719
Speaker 1: which we talk about in certain ways now and often

1610
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:08,400
Speaker 1: I think unfortunately it's talked about, is if it's done

1611
01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:13,280
Speaker 1: to benefit the people that are marginalized and left out

1612
01:31:14,080 --> 01:31:18,280
Speaker 1: only and while it is partly that it benefits everybody,

1613
01:31:18,320 --> 01:31:21,280
Speaker 1: of course, I mean, anyone in a business knows, anybody

1614
01:31:21,280 --> 01:31:27,320
Speaker 1: in the university knows the benefits of of diversity. In

1615
01:31:27,360 --> 01:31:31,520
Speaker 1: the same way anybody that's trying to do something understands

1616
01:31:31,560 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 1: the benefit of a diverse range of experiences. You know.

1617
01:31:35,280 --> 01:31:38,400
Speaker 1: That's why we make these multidisciplinary teams that go out

1618
01:31:38,439 --> 01:31:41,320
Speaker 1: and do things. Uh, you know, it's so that you

1619
01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 1: have this this wide variety that can help you keep going. Yeah.

1620
01:31:46,960 --> 01:31:49,600
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I really found fascinating

1621
01:31:49,600 --> 01:31:51,280
Speaker 1: in your book and that that kind of made me

1622
01:31:51,320 --> 01:31:54,400
Speaker 1: feel a little bit um bad, as I you know,

1623
01:31:54,439 --> 01:31:57,880
Speaker 1: I've I've spent a lot of time thinking about the

1624
01:31:58,200 --> 01:32:00,760
Speaker 1: what happened, what was done to what also just kind

1625
01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:03,439
Speaker 1: of happened as a result of the way diseases spread

1626
01:32:03,479 --> 01:32:06,960
Speaker 1: when when colonizers reached North America. I had never really

1627
01:32:06,960 --> 01:32:11,360
Speaker 1: devoted that much thought to the actual actions that in

1628
01:32:11,439 --> 01:32:15,200
Speaker 1: different indigenous groups took consciously to prevent to protect themselves

1629
01:32:15,280 --> 01:32:17,800
Speaker 1: from the spread of diseases. You mentioned the Cherokee in particular,

1630
01:32:18,360 --> 01:32:20,479
Speaker 1: UM in your book. Could you talk a little bit

1631
01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:22,960
Speaker 1: more about that, because that's something as soon as I

1632
01:32:23,000 --> 01:32:24,519
Speaker 1: read it, I marked that page because I'm like, I

1633
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:26,679
Speaker 1: need to look up what the studies he is referencing,

1634
01:32:26,720 --> 01:32:31,200
Speaker 1: because I I don't know anything about this. Yeah, that, UM,

1635
01:32:31,240 --> 01:32:33,639
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of that stems from the research

1636
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:38,040
Speaker 1: of of some other archaeologists and they, you know what,

1637
01:32:40,360 --> 01:32:42,680
Speaker 1: You're exactly right. We don't think about that. We're not

1638
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:45,160
Speaker 1: taught about it that way. You know, we sort of

1639
01:32:45,200 --> 01:32:52,040
Speaker 1: have this this contradictory and sort of u uh, doubly

1640
01:32:52,120 --> 01:32:55,840
Speaker 1: problematic way of talking about this. First, for a long time,

1641
01:32:56,120 --> 01:33:01,920
Speaker 1: we denied sort of the how traumatic and how much

1642
01:33:01,920 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 1: of a genocide it was when Europeans arrived UM. And

1643
01:33:08,000 --> 01:33:12,040
Speaker 1: then after denying that, we sort of say, well, Native

1644
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 1: Americans are gone and no longer relevant, so we can

1645
01:33:16,400 --> 01:33:20,519
Speaker 1: cease to talk about them. Of course that's not true.

1646
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:22,400
Speaker 1: And one of the things that we see when we

1647
01:33:22,479 --> 01:33:27,000
Speaker 1: look more in detail at the histories, or we listen

1648
01:33:27,080 --> 01:33:29,400
Speaker 1: to the oral histories, or we look at the archaeology,

1649
01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:32,960
Speaker 1: is that there are a number of things that that

1650
01:33:32,960 --> 01:33:40,640
Speaker 1: that people did and do to um uh uh to

1651
01:33:40,760 --> 01:33:42,840
Speaker 1: create the outcomes that they want. And that was no

1652
01:33:42,960 --> 01:33:45,880
Speaker 1: different for the Native American groups, you know, I mean,

1653
01:33:45,920 --> 01:33:49,960
Speaker 1: they had ways of dealing with disease, and some of

1654
01:33:50,000 --> 01:33:55,240
Speaker 1: them will be will be able to understand it via

1655
01:33:55,439 --> 01:34:02,360
Speaker 1: our sort of our system right isolating people cleanliness of

1656
01:34:02,840 --> 01:34:08,040
Speaker 1: minimizing contact expect especially with sort of problematic groups like

1657
01:34:08,120 --> 01:34:12,160
Speaker 1: the colonizer's um you know. But in other ways, there

1658
01:34:12,160 --> 01:34:17,080
Speaker 1: are things that are gonna be unfamiliar to us and

1659
01:34:17,120 --> 01:34:21,040
Speaker 1: we're not gonna see the effectiveness or of the value

1660
01:34:21,080 --> 01:34:23,519
Speaker 1: in it. But one of the things that that all

1661
01:34:23,560 --> 01:34:27,640
Speaker 1: of these things did that these groups were doing was

1662
01:34:27,960 --> 01:34:35,480
Speaker 1: created or maintained um group identity and cohesion and allowed

1663
01:34:35,760 --> 01:34:43,040
Speaker 1: the perseverance of of community. And so there are um

1664
01:34:43,080 --> 01:34:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's easy to think about people as

1665
01:34:45,080 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 1: sort of passive victims of something, especially when it serves

1666
01:34:50,160 --> 01:34:52,360
Speaker 1: your purpose to to think about it in these ways,

1667
01:34:52,960 --> 01:34:56,280
Speaker 1: and we just see that it's it's not the case. Yeah,

1668
01:34:56,360 --> 01:34:58,519
Speaker 1: there was a remarkable moment in the book, and I

1669
01:34:58,560 --> 01:35:01,080
Speaker 1: think it was from when you were in Honduras where

1670
01:35:01,120 --> 01:35:04,040
Speaker 1: you you talk about you're finding pottery shirts and they

1671
01:35:04,080 --> 01:35:06,640
Speaker 1: have these specific kind of markings on them from I

1672
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:08,439
Speaker 1: don't like a thousand years ago or so, and you

1673
01:35:08,479 --> 01:35:11,400
Speaker 1: also know a local woman who's a potter and she's

1674
01:35:11,400 --> 01:35:14,400
Speaker 1: putting the same markings on and you ask her why

1675
01:35:14,439 --> 01:35:17,200
Speaker 1: and her answer is like, well, because the pottery shirts

1676
01:35:17,200 --> 01:35:19,760
Speaker 1: that we find from our ancestors have those on them.

1677
01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:23,320
Speaker 1: And my initial thought was like, oh, what what a

1678
01:35:23,320 --> 01:35:26,120
Speaker 1: shame that she doesn't know what those originally meant. But

1679
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,400
Speaker 1: then I thought like, well, but is that any different

1680
01:35:28,439 --> 01:35:30,439
Speaker 1: from like all of the different things that that I

1681
01:35:30,520 --> 01:35:32,920
Speaker 1: do because their traditions, because like there are things that

1682
01:35:32,960 --> 01:35:36,000
Speaker 1: like people a thousand years ago in in in my

1683
01:35:36,120 --> 01:35:38,760
Speaker 1: line did like, no, it's not like it's it's just

1684
01:35:38,800 --> 01:35:41,000
Speaker 1: what people do and it is a continuation, and it's

1685
01:35:41,040 --> 01:35:45,080
Speaker 1: a very there's um that's a that's that's survival. You

1686
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:49,000
Speaker 1: know that's that's conscious survival. Yeah, you know, and in

1687
01:35:49,040 --> 01:35:53,920
Speaker 1: that case, of course, whatever it meant initially, it now

1688
01:35:54,040 --> 01:36:00,200
Speaker 1: means that to her, right, So there's the meaning, you know. Um,

1689
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:06,320
Speaker 1: And so it's it's interesting, you know, one of the things,

1690
01:36:06,760 --> 01:36:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, I'm from and I live in Kentucky, and

1691
01:36:11,320 --> 01:36:15,600
Speaker 1: one of the things, especially when people come to say Appalachians,

1692
01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:21,600
Speaker 1: they're looking for sort of authentic Appalachian Kentucky, you know, um,

1693
01:36:21,640 --> 01:36:24,960
Speaker 1: and they already have an idea what that is. And

1694
01:36:25,000 --> 01:36:27,840
Speaker 1: if you don't see it, because that's not really what

1695
01:36:27,880 --> 01:36:31,960
Speaker 1: people do, then the response is never, oh my idea

1696
01:36:32,040 --> 01:36:35,519
Speaker 1: is about what is authentic? Might be erroneous. It's I

1697
01:36:35,520 --> 01:36:39,160
Speaker 1: wonder why I didn't see authentic Appalachians. You know. It's like,

1698
01:36:39,200 --> 01:36:45,000
Speaker 1: well you did. But you know, there's gonna be more

1699
01:36:45,200 --> 01:36:49,439
Speaker 1: hip hop and punk groups than there are bluegrass groups

1700
01:36:49,479 --> 01:36:54,719
Speaker 1: because you know, these are twenty year old kids. That's

1701
01:36:54,880 --> 01:36:57,479
Speaker 1: you know, they're doing this as much as this other stuff,

1702
01:36:57,520 --> 01:37:01,840
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, more problem and so that that

1703
01:37:02,000 --> 01:37:06,519
Speaker 1: is something hum that that I think of often as

1704
01:37:06,560 --> 01:37:08,960
Speaker 1: an archaeologist. You know, my focus is in the past.

1705
01:37:09,439 --> 01:37:11,600
Speaker 1: But if I'm going to understand things, of course you

1706
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:14,280
Speaker 1: also have to understand how are people thinking about in

1707
01:37:14,320 --> 01:37:16,120
Speaker 1: the present and how am I thinking about it in

1708
01:37:16,120 --> 01:37:20,439
Speaker 1: the present, because you know, everything, all the stories I

1709
01:37:20,479 --> 01:37:23,240
Speaker 1: tell about the past are coming out of or coming

1710
01:37:23,240 --> 01:37:25,960
Speaker 1: out of my experience in the present too, and it's

1711
01:37:26,000 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 1: hard to uh, it's hard to separate those and that

1712
01:37:29,160 --> 01:37:32,320
Speaker 1: really the best we can do is try to, um,

1713
01:37:33,400 --> 01:37:36,040
Speaker 1: you know, reflect on that and see how is it

1714
01:37:36,080 --> 01:37:38,760
Speaker 1: that I might be limiting my understanding because of my

1715
01:37:38,920 --> 01:37:42,519
Speaker 1: particular experience. And one of the things I really like

1716
01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:44,960
Speaker 1: about your book that I also found fascinating, So it's

1717
01:37:45,120 --> 01:37:47,280
Speaker 1: I you know, I I for a while did um

1718
01:37:47,479 --> 01:37:51,040
Speaker 1: conflict journalism. And before when when that was just an

1719
01:37:51,080 --> 01:37:53,080
Speaker 1: ambition of mine, before I started to do it, I

1720
01:37:53,080 --> 01:37:55,120
Speaker 1: would see the articles that were being written by all

1721
01:37:55,120 --> 01:37:57,160
Speaker 1: these war correspondents, and I would just be in awe

1722
01:37:57,160 --> 01:37:59,400
Speaker 1: of like how did they get that story? How did

1723
01:37:59,400 --> 01:38:01,599
Speaker 1: they get that says? How did they must have put

1724
01:38:01,640 --> 01:38:03,439
Speaker 1: so much work in? And then when I actually got there,

1725
01:38:03,479 --> 01:38:06,280
Speaker 1: I realized, like, oh no, they met they made a

1726
01:38:06,320 --> 01:38:08,080
Speaker 1: contact with the local who was good at it, and

1727
01:38:08,120 --> 01:38:10,600
Speaker 1: that person showed them around and made all these connections,

1728
01:38:10,600 --> 01:38:12,800
Speaker 1: and like, actually, none of this work happens without these

1729
01:38:12,840 --> 01:38:17,240
Speaker 1: local fixers, and you make the point that in archaeology

1730
01:38:17,400 --> 01:38:21,480
Speaker 1: you're not generally discovering things like even when you're finding shipwrecks,

1731
01:38:21,479 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: it's because these sailors who lived nearby were like, well, yeah,

1732
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:26,880
Speaker 1: a bunch of shipwrecks over there, Like this is where

1733
01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:29,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna go find them. You know, It's always the

1734
01:38:29,320 --> 01:38:33,519
Speaker 1: way it is, you know, there um um. In the

1735
01:38:33,760 --> 01:38:36,160
Speaker 1: example you're talking about, I was part of this project

1736
01:38:36,160 --> 01:38:39,000
Speaker 1: in Forney in Greece, which you know, made the news

1737
01:38:39,040 --> 01:38:42,479
Speaker 1: because we found so many shipwrecks there something ultimately like

1738
01:38:42,520 --> 01:38:47,519
Speaker 1: fifty shipwrecks around this island, um and almost all of

1739
01:38:47,560 --> 01:38:51,280
Speaker 1: them were shown to us by local folks, uh that

1740
01:38:51,640 --> 01:38:55,920
Speaker 1: sponge divers or people that were fishers, you know, people

1741
01:38:55,920 --> 01:38:58,240
Speaker 1: that were out on the water all the time. And

1742
01:38:58,280 --> 01:39:00,519
Speaker 1: the few that we found by ourselves was I'm sure

1743
01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:02,760
Speaker 1: people knew about him, We just stumbled on him before

1744
01:39:02,800 --> 01:39:05,800
Speaker 1: somebody had a chance to show us. It's the same

1745
01:39:05,840 --> 01:39:08,799
Speaker 1: way in in the Honduras would we would be walking

1746
01:39:08,840 --> 01:39:12,599
Speaker 1: through the rainforest and you know, maybe we've been walking

1747
01:39:12,640 --> 01:39:15,920
Speaker 1: for a week, so we're way out in the middle

1748
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:19,960
Speaker 1: of this place. People were constantly telling me the guys

1749
01:39:20,000 --> 01:39:21,920
Speaker 1: that I was with, would say, Okay, if we go

1750
01:39:22,040 --> 01:39:24,760
Speaker 1: up this creek, you know, for about six hours, and

1751
01:39:24,800 --> 01:39:26,800
Speaker 1: we go over here, here's what we'd find. Here's what

1752
01:39:26,840 --> 01:39:28,800
Speaker 1: we'd find over here. Here's what we find over here.

1753
01:39:29,439 --> 01:39:34,160
Speaker 1: They knew where everything was. Um. And that's you know,

1754
01:39:34,200 --> 01:39:38,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that you uh uh uh, that

1755
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:40,679
Speaker 1: that you learned is you know how reliant you are

1756
01:39:40,760 --> 01:39:45,439
Speaker 1: on people that live in a place. I mean, they

1757
01:39:45,520 --> 01:39:49,000
Speaker 1: just know it. Yeah, there's no Um, when you get

1758
01:39:49,080 --> 01:39:50,840
Speaker 1: right down to it, is as obsessed as we are

1759
01:39:50,960 --> 01:39:53,080
Speaker 1: kind of in the Western Cannon with the idea of

1760
01:39:53,120 --> 01:39:57,240
Speaker 1: lost cities. Um, that's not really a thing that tends

1761
01:39:57,280 --> 01:40:02,160
Speaker 1: to happen. Um. Yeah, no, no, no, it's not. And

1762
01:40:02,160 --> 01:40:04,679
Speaker 1: and in fact, most of the archaeological sites that people

1763
01:40:04,720 --> 01:40:07,920
Speaker 1: didn't know about it was just because they were so

1764
01:40:08,000 --> 01:40:12,120
Speaker 1: small and ephemeral that no one really paid attention anything. Yeah,

1765
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:18,400
Speaker 1: there's no lost city. They're they're always known for somebody. Well, Chris,

1766
01:40:18,439 --> 01:40:20,400
Speaker 1: I think that's that's most of what I wanted to

1767
01:40:20,439 --> 01:40:23,519
Speaker 1: get into in this conversation. I'm wondering before we kind

1768
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:26,240
Speaker 1: of close out, because you are both the author of

1769
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:28,280
Speaker 1: this book, The Next Apocalypse, which is I think a

1770
01:40:28,280 --> 01:40:31,880
Speaker 1: fascinating way of looking at the idea of things falling

1771
01:40:31,880 --> 01:40:34,880
Speaker 1: apart and a wilderness survival instructor. If you're going to

1772
01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:39,320
Speaker 1: suggest people, you know, a practical kit bag to prepare

1773
01:40:39,400 --> 01:40:42,840
Speaker 1: for short and kind of long term problems, what are

1774
01:40:42,880 --> 01:40:46,000
Speaker 1: you what are you putting in your bag? Well, you know,

1775
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:49,439
Speaker 1: there's the two main things, uh, that you're always gonna

1776
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:53,600
Speaker 1: want is is a knife because that allows you to

1777
01:40:53,640 --> 01:40:55,920
Speaker 1: make a lot of other things. And a way to

1778
01:40:56,000 --> 01:40:59,320
Speaker 1: start fire, you know, and we've all seen in the

1779
01:40:59,320 --> 01:41:03,799
Speaker 1: movies sticks together and you know, friction methods and that works,

1780
01:41:04,600 --> 01:41:07,480
Speaker 1: and you can do that, but it is incredibly difficult

1781
01:41:07,479 --> 01:41:10,080
Speaker 1: to do in the butt, you know, and for most

1782
01:41:10,120 --> 01:41:13,799
Speaker 1: of us that don't do it all the time, Uh,

1783
01:41:13,840 --> 01:41:15,559
Speaker 1: you're just not gonna be able to do it when

1784
01:41:15,560 --> 01:41:18,240
Speaker 1: it's forty degrees in raining and you really need a fire.

1785
01:41:18,880 --> 01:41:20,599
Speaker 1: You know, you'll be able to do it when it's

1786
01:41:20,640 --> 01:41:24,759
Speaker 1: a hundred degrees and dry, you know, uh, because everything

1787
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:28,160
Speaker 1: is about to catch on fire anyway. But uh, you

1788
01:41:28,200 --> 01:41:32,800
Speaker 1: know so, um and what would what would that look like? Well, uh,

1789
01:41:32,960 --> 01:41:35,320
Speaker 1: you need something that will catch on fire pretty quickly.

1790
01:41:35,360 --> 01:41:38,479
Speaker 1: And the thing I always takes cotton balls, you know,

1791
01:41:38,520 --> 01:41:41,840
Speaker 1: if you take cotton balls and a disposable lighter or

1792
01:41:41,960 --> 01:41:46,040
Speaker 1: one of those uh fire starter sticks, it will make sparks.

1793
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:51,120
Speaker 1: Um that those cotton balls will catch fire instantly. And

1794
01:41:51,160 --> 01:41:53,519
Speaker 1: if you take one and you coat half of it

1795
01:41:53,560 --> 01:41:56,200
Speaker 1: with petroleum jelly, then not only will catch fire, it

1796
01:41:56,240 --> 01:41:59,720
Speaker 1: will burn you know, for you know, a minute or so,

1797
01:42:00,240 --> 01:42:03,360
Speaker 1: long enough to catch other stuff on fire. So you know,

1798
01:42:03,439 --> 01:42:06,679
Speaker 1: making fire and having some sort of cutting tool are

1799
01:42:06,760 --> 01:42:14,280
Speaker 1: the very basic things. But um, you know, the beyond that,

1800
01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:18,080
Speaker 1: I would say, uh, you know, clothing or some sort

1801
01:42:18,080 --> 01:42:23,000
Speaker 1: of shelter is is the other thing. You know, Exposure

1802
01:42:23,040 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 1: to elements will kill you quicker than anything, and so

1803
01:42:27,479 --> 01:42:31,160
Speaker 1: having some way to uh to protect yourself and that's

1804
01:42:31,240 --> 01:42:33,360
Speaker 1: usually gonna be you know, first line of defense is

1805
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:36,040
Speaker 1: going to be your clothes. And one of the things

1806
01:42:36,080 --> 01:42:39,719
Speaker 1: that that you'll know anybody that that deals with sort

1807
01:42:39,760 --> 01:42:44,559
Speaker 1: of survival situations is that most people that really get

1808
01:42:44,600 --> 01:42:47,840
Speaker 1: in trouble with things like hypothermia, you know, it's not

1809
01:42:47,920 --> 01:42:51,320
Speaker 1: when it's thirty degrees below and they're out doing something.

1810
01:42:51,400 --> 01:42:54,400
Speaker 1: It's when it's fifty degrees and sunny and they're out

1811
01:42:54,400 --> 01:42:57,519
Speaker 1: in a T shirt during the day and then at

1812
01:42:57,600 --> 01:43:03,599
Speaker 1: night it drops to thirty degrees and you know they're

1813
01:43:03,600 --> 01:43:07,800
Speaker 1: stuck out somewhere with without proper clothing. That's that is

1814
01:43:07,840 --> 01:43:11,519
Speaker 1: when things get really dangerous. So you know, I would say,

1815
01:43:11,880 --> 01:43:13,599
Speaker 1: you know, if you can have some way to start fire,

1816
01:43:13,960 --> 01:43:18,519
Speaker 1: some sort of knife, and appropriate clothes for spending the

1817
01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:22,240
Speaker 1: night out, you know, then then uh, and you're probably

1818
01:43:22,280 --> 01:43:27,240
Speaker 1: in pretty good shape for most situations. Well, Chris, thank

1819
01:43:27,240 --> 01:43:30,520
Speaker 1: you so much for talking with with us today. Chris Begley,

1820
01:43:30,680 --> 01:43:34,519
Speaker 1: underwater archaeologist, author of the Next Apocalypse, The Art of

1821
01:43:34,600 --> 01:43:38,040
Speaker 1: Science and Survival. Chris, is there anything you'd like else

1822
01:43:38,080 --> 01:43:39,840
Speaker 1: you'd like to say or kind of get into before

1823
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:43,439
Speaker 1: we close out for the day. No, just thank you

1824
01:43:43,560 --> 01:43:47,519
Speaker 1: very much for for reading the book and for reaching

1825
01:43:47,560 --> 01:43:49,800
Speaker 1: out to talk with me, because I think that, you know,

1826
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:55,439
Speaker 1: especially now as we go into sort of an uncertain future.

1827
01:43:55,439 --> 01:43:58,840
Speaker 1: I mean, future is always uncertain, I suppose, but um

1828
01:43:59,240 --> 01:44:02,840
Speaker 1: as you know, we're really recognizing some of these challenges.

1829
01:44:03,400 --> 01:44:06,280
Speaker 1: You know, I really am hoping that this sort of

1830
01:44:06,680 --> 01:44:12,639
Speaker 1: um uh, community based idea becomes the way we think

1831
01:44:12,680 --> 01:44:15,519
Speaker 1: about things. Uh. You know, it doesn't mean it's easy

1832
01:44:15,720 --> 01:44:18,120
Speaker 1: or that we're gonna like it. It doesn't mean that

1833
01:44:18,120 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 1: that's what I want. I mean, tell you the truth,

1834
01:44:20,200 --> 01:44:22,639
Speaker 1: I would love it if it was just me out

1835
01:44:22,720 --> 01:44:26,400
Speaker 1: in the woods with my family. You know, I can

1836
01:44:26,479 --> 01:44:29,519
Speaker 1: do that. It's much harder to be part of a

1837
01:44:29,600 --> 01:44:32,000
Speaker 1: community and make things work for a big group of people.

1838
01:44:32,000 --> 01:44:35,080
Speaker 1: But that's just the way it's going to be. Yeah,

1839
01:44:35,160 --> 01:44:37,559
Speaker 1: And that's that's ultimately the way in which you have

1840
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:42,639
Speaker 1: a lot more real security because I think, um uh,

1841
01:44:42,720 --> 01:44:46,840
Speaker 1: I think people I don't know. The world seems so

1842
01:44:46,880 --> 01:44:49,840
Speaker 1: complex and messy that it's easy to imagine that that

1843
01:44:50,040 --> 01:44:53,640
Speaker 1: safety comes from getting away from the world. But historically

1844
01:44:53,640 --> 01:44:58,360
Speaker 1: that's just not how it works. Now the world finds you.

1845
01:44:58,360 --> 01:45:02,000
Speaker 1: You know, it's a being part of a group is

1846
01:45:02,400 --> 01:45:10,160
Speaker 1: always best and your your little group can never defend

1847
01:45:10,200 --> 01:45:12,000
Speaker 1: against the big group. I mean, if we want to

1848
01:45:12,000 --> 01:45:14,720
Speaker 1: put it in those terms, you know, you can't just

1849
01:45:14,840 --> 01:45:21,080
Speaker 1: hoard everything and uh, it just doesn't work. Might work

1850
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:23,479
Speaker 1: for a little while, but yeah, so that you know

1851
01:45:23,560 --> 01:45:26,719
Speaker 1: that for me, that's the message I'm hoping, Yeah, people

1852
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:29,960
Speaker 1: take from it. Well, Thank you very much, Chris. For

1853
01:45:29,960 --> 01:45:32,080
Speaker 1: those of you listening at home again, please do check

1854
01:45:32,120 --> 01:45:35,400
Speaker 1: out The Next Apocalypse The Art and Science of Survival

1855
01:45:35,479 --> 01:45:37,760
Speaker 1: by Chris Begley. That's going to do it for us

1856
01:45:37,800 --> 01:45:40,599
Speaker 1: all today. Chris, thank you again and have a wonderful

1857
01:45:40,680 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 1: day here you too, Thank you. Wrote Hello and welcome

1858
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:51,760
Speaker 1: to our show. I'm Zoie de Channel and I'm so

1859
01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 1: excited to be joined by my friends and cast mates

1860
01:45:54,320 --> 01:45:57,200
Speaker 1: Hannah Simone and Lamar and Morris to recap our hit

1861
01:45:57,280 --> 01:46:00,680
Speaker 1: television series New Girl. Join us every Monday on the

1862
01:46:00,680 --> 01:46:03,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to Our Show podcast, where we'll share behind the

1863
01:46:03,320 --> 01:46:06,280
Speaker 1: scenes stories of your favorite New Girl episodes, reveal the

1864
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:09,880
Speaker 1: truth behind the legendary game True American, and discuss how

1865
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:12,559
Speaker 1: this show got made with the writer's, guest stars, and

1866
01:46:12,640 --> 01:46:15,320
Speaker 1: directors who made the show so special. Fans have been

1867
01:46:15,360 --> 01:46:17,679
Speaker 1: begging us to do a New Girl recap for years,

1868
01:46:17,760 --> 01:46:20,599
Speaker 1: and we finally made a podcast where we answer all

1869
01:46:20,720 --> 01:46:24,240
Speaker 1: your burning questions like is there really a bear in

1870
01:46:24,360 --> 01:46:27,519
Speaker 1: every episode of New Girl? Plus each week you'll hear

1871
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:30,960
Speaker 1: hilarious stories like this at the end when he says

1872
01:46:31,000 --> 01:46:33,360
Speaker 1: you got some schmid on your face. I feel like

1873
01:46:33,479 --> 01:46:35,960
Speaker 1: I pitched that joke. I believe that I feel like

1874
01:46:35,960 --> 01:46:37,639
Speaker 1: I did. I'm not on a thousand percent I want

1875
01:46:37,640 --> 01:46:40,200
Speaker 1: to say that was I tossed that one out listen

1876
01:46:40,200 --> 01:46:42,160
Speaker 1: to the Welcome to Our Show podcast on the I

1877
01:46:42,280 --> 01:46:46,320
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.

1878
01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:50,559
Speaker 1: Oh boy, Prop, You know what's fun is is live shows,

1879
01:46:50,800 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 1: live podcast shows, live podcasts are incredible. You know what

1880
01:46:56,040 --> 01:46:59,320
Speaker 1: isn't incredible is the plague, which is why we've decided

1881
01:46:59,360 --> 01:47:00,760
Speaker 1: to find a way to give you all a live

1882
01:47:00,800 --> 01:47:04,400
Speaker 1: show that won't spread the plague, a virtual live show.

1883
01:47:05,240 --> 01:47:07,439
Speaker 1: We had to pivot, and one can say you could

1884
01:47:07,479 --> 01:47:10,919
Speaker 1: really watch it from anywhere. You could watch it from anywhere.

1885
01:47:10,960 --> 01:47:12,679
Speaker 1: You could watch it. If you're on the I S

1886
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:14,639
Speaker 1: S in space right now, you could watch it. If

1887
01:47:14,680 --> 01:47:17,320
Speaker 1: you're if you're in a trench in in eastern Ukraine,

1888
01:47:17,479 --> 01:47:20,720
Speaker 1: you could watch it. Uh, if you're driving and and

1889
01:47:21,280 --> 01:47:23,880
Speaker 1: don't care about paying attention to the road, you could

1890
01:47:23,880 --> 01:47:25,720
Speaker 1: watch it. All of these are options. With a version

1891
01:47:25,760 --> 01:47:30,240
Speaker 1: totally eliminated the problems of living in a three dimensional

1892
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 1: plane we have. It's it's groundbreaking. You could call it

1893
01:47:34,320 --> 01:47:40,240
Speaker 1: the metaverse. Anyway. It's gonna be February at six pm PST.

1894
01:47:41,120 --> 01:47:43,960
Speaker 1: Prop is going to be the guest. Sophie's gonna be

1895
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:46,280
Speaker 1: there too, and you can buy tickets at moment House

1896
01:47:46,320 --> 01:47:50,040
Speaker 1: dot com slash Behind the Bastards, Slash Behind the Bastards,

1897
01:47:50,080 --> 01:47:53,080
Speaker 1: moment House dot com slash behind the Bastards. Watch it later.

1898
01:47:53,520 --> 01:47:55,559
Speaker 1: You don't have to watch it. It's so bad. You guys,

1899
01:47:55,560 --> 01:47:59,160
Speaker 1: we gotta do this are talking about it was good.

1900
01:47:59,200 --> 01:48:01,880
Speaker 1: I thought everybody was going to bed. We're all just

1901
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:04,559
Speaker 1: saying the same ship over each other, all at once.

1902
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:10,360
Speaker 1: That's so that they notice it. It's called chemistry. This

1903
01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:14,040
Speaker 1: was really bad. Adoption of teens from foster care is

1904
01:48:14,080 --> 01:48:16,400
Speaker 1: a topic not enough people know about, and we're here

1905
01:48:16,439 --> 01:48:18,760
Speaker 1: to change that. I'm April Din't, the host of the

1906
01:48:18,760 --> 01:48:22,920
Speaker 1: new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt us Kids. Each

1907
01:48:22,920 --> 01:48:26,599
Speaker 1: episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by

1908
01:48:26,600 --> 01:48:29,679
Speaker 1: the families that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit

1909
01:48:29,720 --> 01:48:33,200
Speaker 1: adopt us Kids dot org slash podcast or subscribe to

1910
01:48:33,280 --> 01:48:36,600
Speaker 1: Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you

1911
01:48:36,680 --> 01:48:38,599
Speaker 1: by the U. S. Department of Health, the Human Services

1912
01:48:38,600 --> 01:48:50,800
Speaker 1: Administration for Children and Families, and the Act Council. Oh boy,

1913
01:48:50,840 --> 01:48:55,040
Speaker 1: it could happen here. That's the name of the podcast,

1914
01:48:55,520 --> 01:49:00,840
Speaker 1: And I'm Robert Evans, the guy hose sing the podcast.

1915
01:49:00,880 --> 01:49:03,559
Speaker 1: Who else is with me, is it is it? Garrison? Hello,

1916
01:49:03,600 --> 01:49:08,320
Speaker 1: good morning, afternoon evening, Garrison Davis. Ye, not yet a

1917
01:49:08,439 --> 01:49:11,599
Speaker 1: doctor Garrison Davis, not yet, soon soon to be Dr

1918
01:49:11,680 --> 01:49:14,599
Speaker 1: Garrison Davis. I don't know if you're going to pass

1919
01:49:14,840 --> 01:49:17,000
Speaker 1: the exam that I know you're gonna have to pass

1920
01:49:17,120 --> 01:49:20,439
Speaker 1: in order to get through this class. But yeah, a

1921
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:23,840
Speaker 1: little teaser for the future. Speaking of the future, this

1922
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,439
Speaker 1: is a podcast about the ways in which the future

1923
01:49:26,680 --> 01:49:28,240
Speaker 1: is going to be real fucked up and ways in

1924
01:49:28,240 --> 01:49:30,760
Speaker 1: which maybe we could try to make it less sucked up. Um.

1925
01:49:30,800 --> 01:49:34,000
Speaker 1: And today we have on a guest, Mr Calvin Norman,

1926
01:49:34,320 --> 01:49:38,759
Speaker 1: who posted a thread on our subbredit with the very simple,

1927
01:49:39,080 --> 01:49:43,160
Speaker 1: very unsettling title the woods are Bad um And Calvin,

1928
01:49:43,160 --> 01:49:45,600
Speaker 1: you want to introduce your yourself, your credentials and what

1929
01:49:45,640 --> 01:49:47,360
Speaker 1: you were trying to get across in that threat, because

1930
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:50,400
Speaker 1: I found it very affecting. Yeah, thanks for rovert. So

1931
01:49:50,760 --> 01:49:53,960
Speaker 1: my name is, like you said, Calvin Norman. I work

1932
01:49:54,000 --> 01:49:56,160
Speaker 1: in forestry. I've worked in forestry for a while now.

1933
01:49:56,160 --> 01:49:59,080
Speaker 1: I used to be an industrial forester in the Great

1934
01:49:59,160 --> 01:50:02,960
Speaker 1: Lakes region, so Wisconsin, Michigan. Then I worked in the Southeast.

1935
01:50:03,000 --> 01:50:05,760
Speaker 1: I did my masters down there, and now I'm in

1936
01:50:05,800 --> 01:50:07,759
Speaker 1: the mid Atlantic, so I've I've kind of been around

1937
01:50:07,760 --> 01:50:10,120
Speaker 1: the eastern United States. I haven't gotten that west yet.

1938
01:50:10,160 --> 01:50:13,519
Speaker 1: But and I'm a certified forest or candidate certified forest

1939
01:50:13,560 --> 01:50:15,000
Speaker 1: I got like a year left on that, so I

1940
01:50:15,120 --> 01:50:17,519
Speaker 1: been around. I also do wildlife stuff. It's pretty fun.

1941
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:20,400
Speaker 1: And yeah, your your thread. What I found interesting that

1942
01:50:20,520 --> 01:50:22,559
Speaker 1: I have a good friend who is in forestry or

1943
01:50:22,600 --> 01:50:25,400
Speaker 1: was in't forestry at least and got their degree and that,

1944
01:50:25,600 --> 01:50:28,560
Speaker 1: and we were we were out hunting in the Cascades

1945
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:32,120
Speaker 1: a little earlier or a little later last year. Um,

1946
01:50:32,120 --> 01:50:34,120
Speaker 1: and there's this wonderful moment. We've been following a game

1947
01:50:34,160 --> 01:50:36,479
Speaker 1: trail up like this Steve hill side and it was

1948
01:50:36,560 --> 01:50:38,360
Speaker 1: kind of a clearing where we were a clear cut,

1949
01:50:38,400 --> 01:50:39,920
Speaker 1: but there's deep brush all around. And we get to

1950
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:41,240
Speaker 1: the top of this thing, we look out and we

1951
01:50:41,360 --> 01:50:44,479
Speaker 1: just see, you know, these these rolling mountains of the Cascades,

1952
01:50:44,520 --> 01:50:47,879
Speaker 1: all covered in this the most this lush, beautiful greenery,

1953
01:50:47,960 --> 01:50:50,920
Speaker 1: all these these pine trees and everything. And my friend

1954
01:50:51,000 --> 01:50:53,720
Speaker 1: says to me, it's going to be totally different in

1955
01:50:53,760 --> 01:50:56,559
Speaker 1: twenty years. Um, it's already a different force than the

1956
01:50:56,600 --> 01:50:58,559
Speaker 1: one I grew up with. And and that that is.

1957
01:50:58,640 --> 01:51:00,599
Speaker 1: That is kind of the cliffs note. So what what

1958
01:51:00,640 --> 01:51:02,320
Speaker 1: you're You're getting into a lot of detail here, and

1959
01:51:02,320 --> 01:51:04,439
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you could just kind of like, yeah,

1960
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:08,160
Speaker 1: start on that explain kind of what's actually happening in

1961
01:51:08,160 --> 01:51:09,840
Speaker 1: our woods, or at least the woods that that you're

1962
01:51:09,960 --> 01:51:13,519
Speaker 1: comfortable talking about here. It's a big yeah. Yeah. This

1963
01:51:13,560 --> 01:51:15,280
Speaker 1: is a big continent and you have a pretty good

1964
01:51:15,280 --> 01:51:18,479
Speaker 1: international base. And I can't speak for the Europeans or

1965
01:51:18,560 --> 01:51:20,840
Speaker 1: the Canadians. There's a whole different ball game over there.

1966
01:51:20,880 --> 01:51:25,519
Speaker 1: And tropical stuff is just wild, really cool about wild stuff.

1967
01:51:26,160 --> 01:51:29,439
Speaker 1: So mainly talked about the US, mainly Eastern United States.

1968
01:51:30,040 --> 01:51:32,519
Speaker 1: So if you look at the eastern United States, this

1969
01:51:32,600 --> 01:51:36,160
Speaker 1: is a forest that has never existed before in the

1970
01:51:36,200 --> 01:51:39,599
Speaker 1: history of the United States. Um previous you know, prior

1971
01:51:39,640 --> 01:51:42,840
Speaker 1: to like nineteen twenty, our forest was like depending on

1972
01:51:42,880 --> 01:51:47,200
Speaker 1: the source of read, between twenty and chestnut with other

1973
01:51:47,240 --> 01:51:49,799
Speaker 1: species mixed in there. And now we have a mainly

1974
01:51:49,800 --> 01:51:52,760
Speaker 1: oak dominated forest. We lost all of our chest into

1975
01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:55,840
Speaker 1: the chestnut white um out Western You've got a couple

1976
01:51:55,840 --> 01:51:58,000
Speaker 1: of other things going on, but fire suppression just just

1977
01:51:58,080 --> 01:52:00,479
Speaker 1: changed the forest there. The same here in the East

1978
01:52:00,479 --> 01:52:03,080
Speaker 1: coast and into the Midwest. You know, you used to

1979
01:52:03,080 --> 01:52:05,360
Speaker 1: see a lot more fires going through. I mean, so

1980
01:52:05,479 --> 01:52:07,040
Speaker 1: that was lightning strikes, but no doubt a lot of

1981
01:52:07,040 --> 01:52:09,599
Speaker 1: it was you know, intentionally set by the first nations

1982
01:52:09,640 --> 01:52:11,840
Speaker 1: and people before the people that we think of as

1983
01:52:11,880 --> 01:52:16,000
Speaker 1: the first nations. And um, you know that has mainly disappeared,

1984
01:52:16,000 --> 01:52:19,000
Speaker 1: except for the southeast, where virus never really stopped being

1985
01:52:19,000 --> 01:52:21,240
Speaker 1: at the ground, which is really cool. But even their

1986
01:52:21,240 --> 01:52:25,920
Speaker 1: species composition has changed dramatically. Um. A lot of what

1987
01:52:25,960 --> 01:52:28,400
Speaker 1: we're seeing, as you know, changes in human management. But

1988
01:52:28,479 --> 01:52:31,759
Speaker 1: there's also a number of invasive species that have changed things,

1989
01:52:31,960 --> 01:52:35,400
Speaker 1: you know, like chestnut blight, emerald ashbore, Asia longhorn beetle

1990
01:52:35,520 --> 01:52:37,559
Speaker 1: is coming in. You know, those are just the past

1991
01:52:37,640 --> 01:52:41,880
Speaker 1: the understory. And you know, plants is a whole different ballgame. Um,

1992
01:52:42,120 --> 01:52:44,719
Speaker 1: it's it's it's all not great. It's all not great.

1993
01:52:44,800 --> 01:52:47,960
Speaker 1: I was talking with some colleagues and Agricultural Show right

1994
01:52:48,000 --> 01:52:49,960
Speaker 1: before I posted that more talking about how the woods

1995
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:54,040
Speaker 1: were bad, and we very easily laid out a scenario

1996
01:52:54,080 --> 01:52:57,360
Speaker 1: where we lost the most of our remaining dominantory species.

1997
01:52:58,040 --> 01:52:59,960
Speaker 1: It was not at all hard to do. It took

1998
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:03,759
Speaker 1: about two minutes, so not great. And then the West

1999
01:53:03,800 --> 01:53:07,240
Speaker 1: coast things aren't great either. And when you're talking about

2000
01:53:08,080 --> 01:53:10,680
Speaker 1: when you're talking about losing these species and stuff like

2001
01:53:10,720 --> 01:53:13,360
Speaker 1: the chestnut light, where is that coming from? How much

2002
01:53:13,360 --> 01:53:15,960
Speaker 1: of that is sort of as a result of climate change,

2003
01:53:16,000 --> 01:53:17,960
Speaker 1: Like we're having a lot of tree species have trouble

2004
01:53:18,000 --> 01:53:20,200
Speaker 1: here in the West because of how much hotter the

2005
01:53:20,280 --> 01:53:23,040
Speaker 1: summers are and how much drier things have gotten. So

2006
01:53:23,080 --> 01:53:24,800
Speaker 1: how much how much of what you're saying where you

2007
01:53:24,840 --> 01:53:28,040
Speaker 1: are is because there's been changes to the climate, and

2008
01:53:28,040 --> 01:53:29,400
Speaker 1: how much of it is you know, I guess kind

2009
01:53:29,400 --> 01:53:32,360
Speaker 1: of like globalism, like people bringing in pests and bringing

2010
01:53:32,360 --> 01:53:34,879
Speaker 1: in lights and stuff from other areas and it spreads

2011
01:53:34,880 --> 01:53:37,960
Speaker 1: like wildfire. Well, I think that we're just starting to

2012
01:53:38,000 --> 01:53:41,280
Speaker 1: see the beginning of climate change, like driving species you

2013
01:53:41,320 --> 01:53:44,679
Speaker 1: know up the mountain, off the mountain out west and here,

2014
01:53:44,960 --> 01:53:47,040
Speaker 1: you know, out of certain regions, you know, as things

2015
01:53:47,040 --> 01:53:49,599
Speaker 1: are getting hotter and drier or is you know, climbates

2016
01:53:49,640 --> 01:53:52,519
Speaker 1: are becoming more extreme. You know, here in the ne

2017
01:53:52,560 --> 01:53:54,800
Speaker 1: Atlantic we had one of the wettest years on record,

2018
01:53:54,840 --> 01:53:56,960
Speaker 1: I think it's like five or seven, whereas in the

2019
01:53:56,960 --> 01:53:59,040
Speaker 1: Midwest they had droughts but before that we had two

2020
01:53:59,120 --> 01:54:02,479
Speaker 1: years of drought, so you know, it's it's more extreme,

2021
01:54:02,560 --> 01:54:04,599
Speaker 1: and that's that's just starting to take part. But the

2022
01:54:04,720 --> 01:54:08,519
Speaker 1: extinctions and near extinctions have been mainly due to non

2023
01:54:08,640 --> 01:54:13,000
Speaker 1: native pest um. And that's just most of it right there. Um,

2024
01:54:13,040 --> 01:54:16,160
Speaker 1: just because we haven't really seen the start of climate change, yeah,

2025
01:54:16,320 --> 01:54:19,120
Speaker 1: impacting diseases. So like out west with the mountain piebele,

2026
01:54:19,200 --> 01:54:22,439
Speaker 1: you're seeing more generations of mountain piebele comes through. I

2027
01:54:22,479 --> 01:54:26,080
Speaker 1: was just doing a presentation for some folks in South Dakota,

2028
01:54:26,720 --> 01:54:29,320
Speaker 1: and something like a third of their total forest was

2029
01:54:29,360 --> 01:54:34,560
Speaker 1: impacted by mountain pine people. Jeez. And and what is

2030
01:54:34,600 --> 01:54:36,879
Speaker 1: that like when you actually talk about this, these beetles

2031
01:54:36,960 --> 01:54:39,920
Speaker 1: coming in. That's the kind of thing that even as

2032
01:54:39,920 --> 01:54:41,960
Speaker 1: we've gotten more comfortable talking about sort of of of

2033
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:45,080
Speaker 1: the different kind of collapses spawned by climate change, I

2034
01:54:45,120 --> 01:54:48,440
Speaker 1: think that they we tend to imagine more spectacular things,

2035
01:54:48,720 --> 01:54:52,280
Speaker 1: these giants sweeping fires that burned through huge chunks of states,

2036
01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:57,040
Speaker 1: and these huge like environmental calamities. What is this like?

2037
01:54:57,240 --> 01:54:59,240
Speaker 1: What happens when one of these beetles hits a forest?

2038
01:54:59,280 --> 01:55:01,960
Speaker 1: One of these beetles specs obviously not like a singular beetle,

2039
01:55:02,000 --> 01:55:05,000
Speaker 1: Like what what is actually like how quick is the

2040
01:55:05,040 --> 01:55:07,360
Speaker 1: effect and what kind of comes after that? Like I

2041
01:55:07,440 --> 01:55:09,600
Speaker 1: I know there's sort of a shock wight. It's kind

2042
01:55:09,640 --> 01:55:11,240
Speaker 1: of like a bomb going off. I'm interested in kind

2043
01:55:11,280 --> 01:55:15,080
Speaker 1: of tracing the root of that explosion, if that makes sense. Yeah,

2044
01:55:15,160 --> 01:55:17,600
Speaker 1: So it depends species, its specs. Chest. That plate was

2045
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:19,720
Speaker 1: really fast and it just seems to have torn through

2046
01:55:20,400 --> 01:55:23,000
Speaker 1: the chest instative range. So chest that went from Florida

2047
01:55:23,040 --> 01:55:26,480
Speaker 1: to Maine and out west like Tennessee kind of area

2048
01:55:26,520 --> 01:55:29,600
Speaker 1: there um, and it just you know, in like something

2049
01:55:29,640 --> 01:55:33,320
Speaker 1: like fifteen years, the entire species gone. Emerald ashboard has

2050
01:55:33,360 --> 01:55:35,440
Speaker 1: taken a little bit longer. Got here in the eighties,

2051
01:55:35,440 --> 01:55:37,320
Speaker 1: started kind of going off in the mid two thousands,

2052
01:55:37,360 --> 01:55:39,520
Speaker 1: and it's killed a couple of billion trees. So when

2053
01:55:39,560 --> 01:55:41,680
Speaker 1: that hits a small forest, you know, if it's a

2054
01:55:41,920 --> 01:55:44,760
Speaker 1: if it's a pretty you know, beatle that kills pretty fast.

2055
01:55:44,760 --> 01:55:47,680
Speaker 1: Like Emerald dashboard, it gets into your trees. It starts

2056
01:55:47,720 --> 01:55:50,360
Speaker 1: with one or two, and then within four or five

2057
01:55:50,440 --> 01:55:52,680
Speaker 1: years it's it's in most of them in a forest.

2058
01:55:53,000 --> 01:55:56,120
Speaker 1: And then with Emoral dashboard they're dead and five Hemlock

2059
01:55:56,160 --> 01:55:58,560
Speaker 1: William Delgit is pretty similar. It'll just show up one

2060
01:55:58,600 --> 01:56:00,920
Speaker 1: day in a stand and then the hemlocks are dead

2061
01:56:00,920 --> 01:56:05,000
Speaker 1: within five seven years. Uh. And you know, sometimes you

2062
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:07,560
Speaker 1: know what's going on, you know, because embal dashboard is

2063
01:56:07,680 --> 01:56:10,040
Speaker 1: very clear signs. And other times you don't know what's

2064
01:56:10,040 --> 01:56:12,160
Speaker 1: going on because the tree can't be so tall and

2065
01:56:12,200 --> 01:56:14,280
Speaker 1: all of a sudden trees are getting thinner and thinner

2066
01:56:14,280 --> 01:56:17,840
Speaker 1: and then they're dead. Or you have pests like um

2067
01:56:18,240 --> 01:56:21,080
Speaker 1: oak will and that in that trees are dead, you know,

2068
01:56:21,200 --> 01:56:23,760
Speaker 1: in two months, and then it spreads out like a circle.

2069
01:56:23,840 --> 01:56:25,800
Speaker 1: You know it kind of exactly when you see like

2070
01:56:25,800 --> 01:56:29,760
Speaker 1: a bacteria like growth medium with the bacteria spreading out,

2071
01:56:29,760 --> 01:56:32,440
Speaker 1: that's oak spreads and it's just like trees are dead,

2072
01:56:32,640 --> 01:56:34,480
Speaker 1: you know, two months and they spread out and out

2073
01:56:34,480 --> 01:56:39,120
Speaker 1: and out and scary sometimes. Is there anything that can

2074
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:40,960
Speaker 1: be I mean it sounds like with with most of

2075
01:56:40,960 --> 01:56:42,840
Speaker 1: these cases, like with what's happened to kind of like

2076
01:56:42,840 --> 01:56:46,440
Speaker 1: the chestnuts, and it's it's too late for a lot

2077
01:56:46,480 --> 01:56:48,440
Speaker 1: of that. Is there anything that can actually be done

2078
01:56:48,480 --> 01:56:50,600
Speaker 1: to stop this? Like I know we have all these

2079
01:56:51,160 --> 01:56:53,200
Speaker 1: structures in place to try to stop the spread of

2080
01:56:53,240 --> 01:56:55,920
Speaker 1: invasive species, but like once they're in there, it kind

2081
01:56:55,920 --> 01:57:00,320
Speaker 1: of seems like usually we're fucked. Yeah that that okay, Yeah,

2082
01:57:00,440 --> 01:57:03,360
Speaker 1: once you get past, like there's what's called the invasive

2083
01:57:03,400 --> 01:57:06,120
Speaker 1: species establishment curve, so it's an escar and once you

2084
01:57:06,160 --> 01:57:07,960
Speaker 1: get like right, like once it starts take it up,

2085
01:57:08,000 --> 01:57:10,600
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, well, we're done here. So let's let's

2086
01:57:10,600 --> 01:57:14,040
Speaker 1: start thinking about the future. And as you lose more species,

2087
01:57:14,080 --> 01:57:16,120
Speaker 1: like what do we do here? Or if you're like

2088
01:57:16,160 --> 01:57:17,600
Speaker 1: you know, in the case of the case of actions,

2089
01:57:17,640 --> 01:57:19,560
Speaker 1: like this action is going in a swamp, I have

2090
01:57:19,640 --> 01:57:22,680
Speaker 1: nothing else that's going to grow here, So now I

2091
01:57:22,720 --> 01:57:25,240
Speaker 1: just have an open wetland, like I keep grow any

2092
01:57:25,320 --> 01:57:28,640
Speaker 1: native trees here were done. So the biggest thing is

2093
01:57:28,640 --> 01:57:31,000
Speaker 1: preventioned like don't don't bring invasive species in or non

2094
01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:34,240
Speaker 1: native species in. I was talking to a lady couple

2095
01:57:34,280 --> 01:57:37,400
Speaker 1: of weeks ago and she hasn't roll or not. She

2096
01:57:37,520 --> 01:57:40,680
Speaker 1: has hemlock William Delgi on a property and she brought

2097
01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:43,040
Speaker 1: in a bio control or she assumed was a bio

2098
01:57:43,080 --> 01:57:47,960
Speaker 1: control from the Japan. It's a beetle and yeah, in

2099
01:57:48,000 --> 01:57:49,800
Speaker 1: this case, it was one that had been tested and

2100
01:57:49,840 --> 01:57:51,840
Speaker 1: failed because it doesn't make it through the winter. But

2101
01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:53,840
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that, like just just don't do that,

2102
01:57:53,920 --> 01:57:56,920
Speaker 1: you know, I shaped the thought there, but don't with

2103
01:57:57,000 --> 01:57:59,320
Speaker 1: some of these species we have, you know, you know,

2104
01:57:59,400 --> 01:58:01,840
Speaker 1: like hemlock, the indulgent. We have pesticides that worked really

2105
01:58:01,840 --> 01:58:03,520
Speaker 1: well and that you apply them ordered the tree and

2106
01:58:03,520 --> 01:58:05,360
Speaker 1: so it's like, all right, I treated this tree. This

2107
01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:07,960
Speaker 1: tree is good for seven years. Some of them, like

2108
01:58:07,960 --> 01:58:10,480
Speaker 1: emerald lashboard, you're done. There's just nothing you can do.

2109
01:58:10,720 --> 01:58:15,360
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a prevention, prevention, and then then you

2110
01:58:15,400 --> 01:58:18,760
Speaker 1: can quarantine. But then you know, it's like where this

2111
01:58:18,800 --> 01:58:20,320
Speaker 1: county is done, so we're gonna just try to make

2112
01:58:20,320 --> 01:58:24,160
Speaker 1: sure that only this county dies. Jeez, you mentioned a

2113
01:58:24,160 --> 01:58:26,520
Speaker 1: bit earlier like thinking about the future, what does that

2114
01:58:26,560 --> 01:58:28,720
Speaker 1: actually look like when when we hit a situation as

2115
01:58:28,760 --> 01:58:30,240
Speaker 1: we have with a lot of these species, were like,

2116
01:58:30,240 --> 01:58:33,200
Speaker 1: all right, well this ship's we ain't we ain't stopping this.

2117
01:58:33,760 --> 01:58:37,320
Speaker 1: What is what like, what do people like you do next?

2118
01:58:37,440 --> 01:58:39,960
Speaker 1: Like what is the next kind of step for the

2119
01:58:40,000 --> 01:58:41,960
Speaker 1: forests or is it just sort of a smoke them

2120
01:58:41,960 --> 01:58:44,920
Speaker 1: ale you got them kind of thing. Uh, Sometimes it's

2121
01:58:44,920 --> 01:58:46,480
Speaker 1: smoke them while you got them. So like beach Park

2122
01:58:46,520 --> 01:58:49,160
Speaker 1: disease is going through just roasting beach in the East coast,

2123
01:58:49,240 --> 01:58:51,840
Speaker 1: it's going it's going to the Midwest, and so there

2124
01:58:51,880 --> 01:58:53,800
Speaker 1: it's kind of like, well, you know, if it's in

2125
01:58:53,840 --> 01:58:55,520
Speaker 1: there and your beach or dyeing and take them out,

2126
01:58:55,880 --> 01:58:59,280
Speaker 1: and if they're not, don't there's it's fat. But there's

2127
01:58:59,320 --> 01:59:02,000
Speaker 1: one percent that can make it. So you know, like

2128
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:05,480
Speaker 1: maybe we find that one percent and last words, nine failed.

2129
01:59:05,480 --> 01:59:07,640
Speaker 1: But I've seen you know, in the past couple of years,

2130
01:59:07,680 --> 01:59:09,800
Speaker 1: I've seen two that made it. So like if we

2131
01:59:09,840 --> 01:59:13,040
Speaker 1: don't cut them all, maybe someone survive. Theoretically we could

2132
01:59:13,080 --> 01:59:16,080
Speaker 1: then like clone or breed or whatever the trees that

2133
01:59:16,120 --> 01:59:20,000
Speaker 1: live and and a few generations have more of them. Um,

2134
01:59:20,800 --> 01:59:23,920
Speaker 1: if other ship doesn't happen. Yeah, the chestnut project has

2135
01:59:23,960 --> 01:59:25,320
Speaker 1: been going on for the last hundred years, and it

2136
01:59:25,560 --> 01:59:27,520
Speaker 1: looks like I'll take about forty more. It's that's a

2137
01:59:27,560 --> 01:59:30,200
Speaker 1: controversial opinion. Some people say it's a fashioned forty but

2138
01:59:30,920 --> 01:59:34,400
Speaker 1: you know years oh the chestnut foundation. Really it's a

2139
01:59:34,440 --> 01:59:38,040
Speaker 1: really neat thing. So there were some chestnuts that were

2140
01:59:38,040 --> 01:59:40,720
Speaker 1: found resistant in some planet outside the range of chestnut light,

2141
01:59:41,040 --> 01:59:43,680
Speaker 1: and so the ideas where they slowly started back breeding.

2142
01:59:43,760 --> 01:59:47,120
Speaker 1: So they crossed in Chinese chestnut which is resistant to

2143
01:59:47,160 --> 01:59:49,840
Speaker 1: the blight, which is native to China and East Asia,

2144
01:59:50,200 --> 01:59:53,240
Speaker 1: and so they crossed them in with the remaining chestnut

2145
01:59:53,320 --> 01:59:56,000
Speaker 1: with the hopes of you know, kind of eventually breeding

2146
01:59:56,000 --> 02:00:00,520
Speaker 1: out the Chinese but just maintaining the American chest snut

2147
02:00:00,760 --> 02:00:02,560
Speaker 1: and just getting that gene in there. And so they

2148
02:00:02,560 --> 02:00:04,840
Speaker 1: started that back in like the thirties and forties when

2149
02:00:04,840 --> 02:00:08,600
Speaker 1: they realized what was happening. Well, you know, today is

2150
02:00:08,640 --> 02:00:13,880
Speaker 1: two and we are still without American chestnut in the forest.

2151
02:00:13,880 --> 02:00:17,560
Speaker 1: There are some backbread versions that are more resistant, but

2152
02:00:17,640 --> 02:00:20,160
Speaker 1: they will still get infected. I've been to a couple

2153
02:00:20,200 --> 02:00:23,280
Speaker 1: of chestnut nurseries where they're doing experiments and it's it's

2154
02:00:23,280 --> 02:00:25,120
Speaker 1: sad because they'll they'll get up and then they'll die.

2155
02:00:25,360 --> 02:00:26,920
Speaker 1: They'll get up and they'll die, and it's like, oh,

2156
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:28,640
Speaker 1: there's two, but there are two over there in the

2157
02:00:28,640 --> 02:00:31,120
Speaker 1: corner that made it, and those get you know, onto

2158
02:00:31,120 --> 02:00:33,280
Speaker 1: the next one. But there is some work out of

2159
02:00:34,120 --> 02:00:37,560
Speaker 1: New York Sunny in New York where they altered a

2160
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:41,360
Speaker 1: chestnut and they put in um. They just they just

2161
02:00:41,440 --> 02:00:44,280
Speaker 1: change the genes. So the version of the genus makes

2162
02:00:44,640 --> 02:00:48,640
Speaker 1: chestnut flight resistant is in that and that's getting approved

2163
02:00:48,640 --> 02:00:51,080
Speaker 1: by the E p A, f d A and U

2164
02:00:51,160 --> 02:00:54,160
Speaker 1: s d A. Hopefully that gets approved. If that gets approved,

2165
02:00:54,160 --> 02:00:57,880
Speaker 1: we get real, we get real further along because the

2166
02:00:57,920 --> 02:01:00,879
Speaker 1: resistant trees are not the same aim as the American

2167
02:01:00,960 --> 02:01:04,640
Speaker 1: just the resistant trees are more they're shorter and more shrubby,

2168
02:01:04,680 --> 02:01:08,200
Speaker 1: and they don't fulfill the overstory cannot be rolled chest.

2169
02:01:08,200 --> 02:01:12,360
Speaker 1: I used to playing, um, that's that's best case scenario.

2170
02:01:12,480 --> 02:01:16,600
Speaker 1: Worst case scenarios. You're like, um, butternut which was driven

2171
02:01:16,640 --> 02:01:19,040
Speaker 1: to functional extension at the same time, and we're just

2172
02:01:19,080 --> 02:01:22,680
Speaker 1: nowhere on that produce, working on some stuff, but it's nowhere.

2173
02:01:22,680 --> 02:01:27,640
Speaker 1: They're not in the woods now. How how much of

2174
02:01:27,680 --> 02:01:31,080
Speaker 1: like because I tend to roll my eyes pretty hard

2175
02:01:31,080 --> 02:01:33,680
Speaker 1: when we're talking particular climate change and people are like, well,

2176
02:01:33,720 --> 02:01:36,360
Speaker 1: I think that science is going to save our asses

2177
02:01:36,360 --> 02:01:38,320
Speaker 1: from this one. We're gonna we're gonna develop some like

2178
02:01:38,360 --> 02:01:40,960
Speaker 1: miraculous carbon capture method and like at the last minute,

2179
02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:43,240
Speaker 1: we'll we'll we'll be able to reverse everything and it'll

2180
02:01:43,240 --> 02:01:45,400
Speaker 1: be fine. I tend to roll my eyes at that.

2181
02:01:45,480 --> 02:01:48,400
Speaker 1: But this, and maybe I'm not obviously I don't understand

2182
02:01:48,400 --> 02:01:50,240
Speaker 1: this in nearly the level you do is this kind

2183
02:01:50,280 --> 02:01:52,080
Speaker 1: of a thing where if there's hope for a lot

2184
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:54,120
Speaker 1: of these species and a lot of these biomas, it's

2185
02:01:54,120 --> 02:01:56,000
Speaker 1: going to be and stuff like we figure out how

2186
02:01:56,000 --> 02:01:58,880
Speaker 1: to hack these trees to keep them alive, and like,

2187
02:01:59,000 --> 02:02:02,120
Speaker 1: is that really kind of where we are? I know

2188
02:02:02,280 --> 02:02:05,240
Speaker 1: some very good tree genesis and tree breeders, but I

2189
02:02:05,680 --> 02:02:08,480
Speaker 1: don't think that they have the capabilities of, you know,

2190
02:02:08,960 --> 02:02:10,920
Speaker 1: coming up with trees that are resistant to all of

2191
02:02:10,960 --> 02:02:13,840
Speaker 1: the various fungi and bugs that are out there. And

2192
02:02:13,880 --> 02:02:15,760
Speaker 1: even if they do, it's you know, you have to

2193
02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:17,440
Speaker 1: get them out into the woods. You have to plant.

2194
02:02:17,520 --> 02:02:20,520
Speaker 1: We have billion makers of forest. You've got to get

2195
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:22,040
Speaker 1: them out into the woods. You have to have the

2196
02:02:22,120 --> 02:02:24,280
Speaker 1: nurseries to get them out. There's you know, even if

2197
02:02:24,280 --> 02:02:26,800
Speaker 1: you were able to create trees that resistant to all

2198
02:02:26,800 --> 02:02:29,840
Speaker 1: of these pests, it would be impossible. So no, the

2199
02:02:29,920 --> 02:02:34,000
Speaker 1: only the only answer is, uh, don't don't do climate change.

2200
02:02:34,080 --> 02:02:37,480
Speaker 1: And to the carbon captured perspective, um, the only machine

2201
02:02:37,480 --> 02:02:39,680
Speaker 1: that's going to capture the amount of carbon we need

2202
02:02:39,960 --> 02:02:43,600
Speaker 1: our trees. I do. I do forest carbon stuff, which

2203
02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:46,160
Speaker 1: is a whole different episode. I want to I mean,

2204
02:02:46,160 --> 02:02:48,880
Speaker 1: I'm there, I'm extremely interested in that because obviously, like

2205
02:02:48,920 --> 02:02:51,560
Speaker 1: we've we've been supported by a couple of companies who

2206
02:02:51,600 --> 02:02:52,880
Speaker 1: like one of the things they do to try to

2207
02:02:52,920 --> 02:02:55,400
Speaker 1: be nice is they'll they'll plant trees and stuff, which

2208
02:02:55,440 --> 02:02:58,840
Speaker 1: is not useless. But also a lot of people think

2209
02:02:58,920 --> 02:03:01,600
Speaker 1: that that's what building a forest is, and like, no,

2210
02:03:01,880 --> 02:03:04,080
Speaker 1: forests are a huge part of the problem with why

2211
02:03:04,120 --> 02:03:06,120
Speaker 1: the West is so flammable. As we chopped down all

2212
02:03:06,120 --> 02:03:09,560
Speaker 1: these trees and we grew back just the trees um

2213
02:03:09,600 --> 02:03:11,680
Speaker 1: to chop them down again, and that turns out to

2214
02:03:11,720 --> 02:03:14,360
Speaker 1: not be resilient at all to anything, because trees do

2215
02:03:14,400 --> 02:03:17,360
Speaker 1: not live on their own ever. Yeah, that's why it's

2216
02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:22,400
Speaker 1: a forest. It's not just exactly right, Yeah, no, it's yeah,

2217
02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:27,520
Speaker 1: that's that's a planting. There's not the infrastructure to plant

2218
02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:30,120
Speaker 1: our way of climate change. There's not the land. It's

2219
02:03:30,200 --> 02:03:33,760
Speaker 1: just impossible. And so even even if even if they're

2220
02:03:33,760 --> 02:03:35,880
Speaker 1: worthy infrastructure in the lane, that we don't have the

2221
02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:39,040
Speaker 1: time because you know, trees take time to grow. They

2222
02:03:39,080 --> 02:03:43,000
Speaker 1: work on a different time scale than humans do, even

2223
02:03:43,040 --> 02:03:46,840
Speaker 1: your your shortest lived trees sixty eight years. Yeah, and

2224
02:03:46,880 --> 02:03:48,960
Speaker 1: it is one of those things where I mean, we

2225
02:03:48,960 --> 02:03:50,280
Speaker 1: we had this is what we taught we kind of

2226
02:03:50,320 --> 02:03:53,480
Speaker 1: started this new season which is forever with which is

2227
02:03:53,520 --> 02:03:56,160
Speaker 1: that like there's no there's nothing we can do that

2228
02:03:56,200 --> 02:03:58,760
Speaker 1: will stop us from continuing to face worse and worse

2229
02:03:59,120 --> 02:04:01,880
Speaker 1: because because consequences of climate change, because the carbon is

2230
02:04:01,880 --> 02:04:03,960
Speaker 1: already been admitted, right, you can't just pull it out.

2231
02:04:04,040 --> 02:04:06,760
Speaker 1: Warming is even if we were to like make very

2232
02:04:06,840 --> 02:04:10,320
Speaker 1: revolutionary changes tomorrow, there's still some degree to which it's

2233
02:04:10,320 --> 02:04:13,200
Speaker 1: going to get worse. Um. But when it comes to

2234
02:04:13,280 --> 02:04:16,720
Speaker 1: like within your field, what like carbon capture using trees

2235
02:04:16,720 --> 02:04:18,120
Speaker 1: and stuff, can you talk to us about like what

2236
02:04:18,200 --> 02:04:20,600
Speaker 1: that actually looks like as opposed to sort of the

2237
02:04:20,880 --> 02:04:23,040
Speaker 1: will plant a tree for every dollar you spend kind

2238
02:04:23,040 --> 02:04:26,880
Speaker 1: of thing. Um, So yeah, I actually I actually can.

2239
02:04:26,960 --> 02:04:29,480
Speaker 1: It's I do a lot of my work about forest

2240
02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:36,640
Speaker 1: carbon stuff. So yeah, Basically, the idea is to make

2241
02:04:36,680 --> 02:04:38,960
Speaker 1: sure you have the best way to get carbon cy

2242
02:04:38,960 --> 02:04:42,560
Speaker 1: equestration of the force is to have a healthy functioning forest.

2243
02:04:43,120 --> 02:04:44,920
Speaker 1: And that's you know kind of where these pests and

2244
02:04:45,000 --> 02:04:47,280
Speaker 1: climate change are interfering with that. And so you know,

2245
02:04:47,640 --> 02:04:49,840
Speaker 1: to maintain a healthy functioning force in the East Coast,

2246
02:04:49,920 --> 02:04:51,320
Speaker 1: you know, some of these you need to have fire,

2247
02:04:51,480 --> 02:04:53,040
Speaker 1: some of them not. Some of them are too wet

2248
02:04:53,080 --> 02:04:55,720
Speaker 1: to burn. Uh. And then you know, harvesting needs to

2249
02:04:55,800 --> 02:04:57,640
Speaker 1: take place in some of these some of these don't

2250
02:04:57,640 --> 02:04:59,840
Speaker 1: need to be harvested. Again, we're talking, you know, no

2251
02:05:00,000 --> 02:05:02,920
Speaker 1: means makers of forest here. So we're gonna be incredibly

2252
02:05:02,960 --> 02:05:07,000
Speaker 1: broad and we got to keep invasives out. You need

2253
02:05:07,040 --> 02:05:10,040
Speaker 1: to keep force pest to a minimum, and then make

2254
02:05:10,080 --> 02:05:12,720
Speaker 1: sure that you're managing the forest, you know, as best

2255
02:05:12,720 --> 02:05:15,360
Speaker 1: as it can be managed. And I say managed, this

2256
02:05:15,440 --> 02:05:17,400
Speaker 1: is not something new. Humans have been on the East

2257
02:05:17,440 --> 02:05:19,840
Speaker 1: Coast since. You know, it depends on the artifacts you

2258
02:05:19,840 --> 02:05:22,360
Speaker 1: want to look at and what archaeologists you want to trust.

2259
02:05:22,400 --> 02:05:25,640
Speaker 1: But like twenty five to twenty thousand years ago, and

2260
02:05:25,680 --> 02:05:28,560
Speaker 1: the last glaciers left the East Coast eighteen thousand years ago,

2261
02:05:28,840 --> 02:05:32,120
Speaker 1: so we had people here before the glaciers were gone.

2262
02:05:32,440 --> 02:05:34,840
Speaker 1: So these forests have never not had humans hands on

2263
02:05:34,880 --> 02:05:39,480
Speaker 1: them and never not been touched and manage by humans. Um.

2264
02:05:39,520 --> 02:05:41,520
Speaker 1: And you know, we gotta make sure we're doing the

2265
02:05:41,520 --> 02:05:43,080
Speaker 1: best we can. You know, some of that means that

2266
02:05:43,120 --> 02:05:45,520
Speaker 1: we're managing force with what's best for you know, that

2267
02:05:45,560 --> 02:05:47,840
Speaker 1: means managing for us for what's best with the force

2268
02:05:47,920 --> 02:05:50,040
Speaker 1: of mind, nut with best what's best for the end

2269
02:05:50,040 --> 02:05:53,200
Speaker 1: of the quarter, what's best for your bank account. That's

2270
02:05:53,240 --> 02:05:56,360
Speaker 1: hard to do because forces are getting more and more

2271
02:05:56,360 --> 02:05:58,600
Speaker 1: expensive to manage and to you know, manage just an

2272
02:05:58,640 --> 02:05:59,840
Speaker 1: able here in the East Coast, we got to do

2273
02:05:59,880 --> 02:06:01,840
Speaker 1: a lot of fencing. We've got to keep deer out

2274
02:06:01,840 --> 02:06:04,680
Speaker 1: of force because their populations are so high. It's just

2275
02:06:04,840 --> 02:06:07,000
Speaker 1: ridiculously high, and they've never got to come back down.

2276
02:06:07,480 --> 02:06:09,920
Speaker 1: You know, we have to spray invasive species, we have

2277
02:06:10,000 --> 02:06:12,120
Speaker 1: to pull invasive species. You gotta go through and you've

2278
02:06:12,080 --> 02:06:14,880
Speaker 1: gotta make sure you know you're you're preventing all those

2279
02:06:14,960 --> 02:06:16,600
Speaker 1: kinds of stuff. And so we can take you know,

2280
02:06:16,680 --> 02:06:18,920
Speaker 1: you can if you do a good shelter, would you

2281
02:06:18,960 --> 02:06:21,000
Speaker 1: can like make four dollars out of it, and then

2282
02:06:21,000 --> 02:06:22,840
Speaker 1: you can put all that money back into growing your

2283
02:06:22,840 --> 02:06:25,520
Speaker 1: next generation of force. So forces is really going from

2284
02:06:25,520 --> 02:06:27,920
Speaker 1: a profit making venture in a lot of cases to

2285
02:06:28,040 --> 02:06:31,880
Speaker 1: like you're barely making money or you're you're like breaking

2286
02:06:31,920 --> 02:06:34,880
Speaker 1: even or losing money. It's it's no longer you know,

2287
02:06:34,920 --> 02:06:36,240
Speaker 1: if you really want to do it great, You're not

2288
02:06:36,240 --> 02:06:38,200
Speaker 1: always making money, which is hard for people to get

2289
02:06:38,200 --> 02:06:41,040
Speaker 1: their head around. I mean, it's the kind of thing

2290
02:06:41,080 --> 02:06:43,920
Speaker 1: that in a reasonable world, huge amounts of money would

2291
02:06:43,960 --> 02:06:46,160
Speaker 1: be adverted to from other things, like I don't know,

2292
02:06:47,040 --> 02:06:49,720
Speaker 1: thirty five, Um, I feel like you guys could do

2293
02:06:49,760 --> 02:06:52,120
Speaker 1: a lot with one f thirty five worth of cash.

2294
02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:54,960
Speaker 1: I feel like that would solve almost all of our problems. Yeah,

2295
02:06:54,960 --> 02:06:56,840
Speaker 1: because the problems that you see in force we don't

2296
02:06:56,920 --> 02:06:59,200
Speaker 1: cost a lot to fix, but it it costs a

2297
02:06:59,200 --> 02:07:01,280
Speaker 1: lot for a four stonner be that you know, an

2298
02:07:01,320 --> 02:07:05,040
Speaker 1: agency or person, it costs a lot. Yeah. It's like

2299
02:07:05,200 --> 02:07:07,800
Speaker 1: all of the issues around climate change kind of all

2300
02:07:08,000 --> 02:07:12,320
Speaker 1: circle around, like growth based economics and a lot of

2301
02:07:12,320 --> 02:07:15,520
Speaker 1: the like nothing has a shared cause, but they all

2302
02:07:15,640 --> 02:07:18,920
Speaker 1: have this similar aspect to them where yeah, every every

2303
02:07:18,920 --> 02:07:22,320
Speaker 1: part of them gets worse by the extreme focus on

2304
02:07:22,360 --> 02:07:25,840
Speaker 1: economic growth at all costs and that suffers that that

2305
02:07:25,840 --> 02:07:28,680
Speaker 1: that makes everything and everyone suffer. So, you know, it

2306
02:07:28,720 --> 02:07:30,680
Speaker 1: would be nice if since we have a government, it

2307
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:32,920
Speaker 1: would be nice if they do, you know, give more

2308
02:07:33,000 --> 02:07:37,200
Speaker 1: funding towards uh stuff like this type of force management,

2309
02:07:37,200 --> 02:07:39,480
Speaker 1: which I know they do some, but you know, a

2310
02:07:39,560 --> 02:07:41,160
Speaker 1: fraction of it compared to what they give to like

2311
02:07:41,240 --> 02:07:45,240
Speaker 1: the Pentagon or you know, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. I mean

2312
02:07:45,280 --> 02:07:48,320
Speaker 1: even big you know forestries technically agriculture, but even like

2313
02:07:48,560 --> 02:07:52,280
Speaker 1: you know, like corn and like grow agriculture's yeah, they

2314
02:07:52,320 --> 02:07:56,280
Speaker 1: have the corn as massive subsidies compared to compared to

2315
02:07:56,280 --> 02:08:00,000
Speaker 1: everything else. Yeah, like the NRCS to the Natural Resource

2316
02:08:00,120 --> 02:08:02,480
Speaker 1: this Conservation Service, they do a lot with you know,

2317
02:08:02,720 --> 02:08:06,680
Speaker 1: farm agriculture, and you know, they it's very difficult for

2318
02:08:06,680 --> 02:08:09,200
Speaker 1: forest ollers to get that kind of money into forests.

2319
02:08:09,240 --> 02:08:11,400
Speaker 1: If we could get you know, that money, it would

2320
02:08:11,440 --> 02:08:14,680
Speaker 1: be a game changer. But we're not there. Uh, there

2321
02:08:14,800 --> 02:08:17,760
Speaker 1: is some change being made in the administration. But yeah,

2322
02:08:17,840 --> 02:08:21,840
Speaker 1: that's like stuff and that doesn't help, doesn't help today,

2323
02:08:22,040 --> 02:08:28,360
Speaker 1: that doesn't still unpassed today. Yeah, you can't unkill trees. Yeah,

2324
02:08:28,480 --> 02:08:32,480
Speaker 1: I guess is there anything that you're optimistic about within

2325
02:08:32,520 --> 02:08:35,080
Speaker 1: your field right now? Like if you I think that

2326
02:08:35,120 --> 02:08:39,040
Speaker 1: would be handy both in terms of like is there

2327
02:08:39,080 --> 02:08:43,440
Speaker 1: any sort of is there a light at the end

2328
02:08:43,480 --> 02:08:47,080
Speaker 1: of the tunnel? Um, because I'll admit, like, when I

2329
02:08:47,120 --> 02:08:51,440
Speaker 1: think about not having the forests, that's pretty much the

2330
02:08:51,480 --> 02:08:54,280
Speaker 1: most blackpilling thing I can imagine, like for myself, like

2331
02:08:54,360 --> 02:08:57,480
Speaker 1: that's the that's the thing that I have trouble coping

2332
02:08:57,520 --> 02:09:00,000
Speaker 1: with emotionally more than anything else. There's lots of horror

2333
02:09:00,040 --> 02:09:03,520
Speaker 1: all things about what's coming, but that's the one that

2334
02:09:03,640 --> 02:09:07,200
Speaker 1: like really scares me the most. Yeah, I don't think

2335
02:09:07,240 --> 02:09:10,000
Speaker 1: we're gonna lose forests as a thing. They're just were

2336
02:09:10,040 --> 02:09:12,760
Speaker 1: to become. You know, if without things being done, they

2337
02:09:12,960 --> 02:09:15,680
Speaker 1: become less, they're gonna be fewer of them, and they're

2338
02:09:15,720 --> 02:09:19,040
Speaker 1: gonna become much less diverse and functioning. You know, for

2339
02:09:19,160 --> 02:09:22,080
Speaker 1: a lot of these you know, invasive species, be they plants,

2340
02:09:22,280 --> 02:09:24,320
Speaker 1: you know, especially in basive plants, we have a lot

2341
02:09:24,320 --> 02:09:26,360
Speaker 1: of we know how to control them. I was just

2342
02:09:26,360 --> 02:09:29,240
Speaker 1: writing a thing about controlling wavy basket grasp, wavy leaf

2343
02:09:29,240 --> 02:09:32,000
Speaker 1: basket grass. It's a new invasive species to my area.

2344
02:09:32,200 --> 02:09:34,920
Speaker 1: It's highly controllable, and we know how to do it.

2345
02:09:34,920 --> 02:09:37,520
Speaker 1: It's just again a question of people, you know, getting

2346
02:09:37,520 --> 02:09:40,040
Speaker 1: out there and money to do it. You know, if

2347
02:09:40,040 --> 02:09:42,320
Speaker 1: we have the people and the money, we can solve

2348
02:09:42,320 --> 02:09:44,400
Speaker 1: that problem. Oh also we stop you know bringing that

2349
02:09:44,440 --> 02:09:47,480
Speaker 1: in the be even better. We you know, actually took

2350
02:09:47,920 --> 02:09:51,080
Speaker 1: you know i PM, right, not i PM, but quarantine

2351
02:09:51,120 --> 02:09:53,520
Speaker 1: and pest management seriously, and you know, people like stopped

2352
02:09:53,560 --> 02:09:56,440
Speaker 1: throwing you know, they look like plant out of the

2353
02:09:56,480 --> 02:09:58,400
Speaker 1: park just because like I don't want to kill it, Like,

2354
02:09:58,480 --> 02:10:01,200
Speaker 1: let's let it be free. Don't do that. Goldfish, don't

2355
02:10:01,240 --> 02:10:03,720
Speaker 1: don't throw them in the lake. That's why you have

2356
02:10:03,840 --> 02:10:06,600
Speaker 1: huge goldfish coming out of Lake Florida. Don't. Don't just

2357
02:10:06,680 --> 02:10:08,880
Speaker 1: cut pets loose and stuff like that. And if we

2358
02:10:08,920 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 1: can get a lot of that under control, would be

2359
02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:12,520
Speaker 1: in a lot better place. Again, I don't think they

2360
02:10:12,640 --> 02:10:15,720
Speaker 1: force of disappearing in the future unmanaged. I think they

2361
02:10:15,800 --> 02:10:18,800
Speaker 1: just become fewer and less diverse and less flunky, and

2362
02:10:18,840 --> 02:10:21,600
Speaker 1: then you lose spaces species based on them, like birds,

2363
02:10:22,040 --> 02:10:25,360
Speaker 1: you know, wildlife, all that kind of stuff. And also

2364
02:10:25,400 --> 02:10:27,960
Speaker 1: I mean one of the things that also they have

2365
02:10:28,040 --> 02:10:30,960
Speaker 1: to become less accessible, both because there will be less

2366
02:10:30,960 --> 02:10:33,800
Speaker 1: of the man um as things get more fragile, Like

2367
02:10:33,840 --> 02:10:36,280
Speaker 1: how else do you keep some of these invasive species

2368
02:10:36,320 --> 02:10:38,680
Speaker 1: out but keeping people out, which is I think a

2369
02:10:38,800 --> 02:10:42,080
Speaker 1: bad move for a lot of reasons. But I I

2370
02:10:42,120 --> 02:10:46,160
Speaker 1: don't know. I also don't know, like is it possible

2371
02:10:46,640 --> 02:10:50,120
Speaker 1: to have a global society where there is not just

2372
02:10:50,200 --> 02:10:52,520
Speaker 1: trade but the movement of people on a wide scale

2373
02:10:52,560 --> 02:10:57,000
Speaker 1: and not have this kind of ship crossing right, Like

2374
02:10:57,080 --> 02:10:59,840
Speaker 1: that's when I think about as as someone who's more

2375
02:11:00,040 --> 02:11:02,680
Speaker 1: US and anarchists. When I think about the only things

2376
02:11:02,720 --> 02:11:05,440
Speaker 1: that a border should exist to do, it's it's keep

2377
02:11:05,800 --> 02:11:07,440
Speaker 1: stuff like that out. But I just I don't know

2378
02:11:07,520 --> 02:11:10,080
Speaker 1: how possible that is. Like a lot of this stuff is.

2379
02:11:10,760 --> 02:11:13,080
Speaker 1: I mean, is this the kind of thing that's just

2380
02:11:13,120 --> 02:11:16,320
Speaker 1: spread by carelessness? Because it kind of seems like it

2381
02:11:16,400 --> 02:11:18,600
Speaker 1: can be spread to by people who think they're taking

2382
02:11:18,640 --> 02:11:22,240
Speaker 1: care Yeah, and both is the answer. There's some very

2383
02:11:22,280 --> 02:11:26,040
Speaker 1: good research out there about the relativeness between global trade

2384
02:11:26,400 --> 02:11:29,120
Speaker 1: and you know, invasive species. But that also you look

2385
02:11:29,120 --> 02:11:32,400
Speaker 1: at like colonialism and colonial societies. There were these things

2386
02:11:32,480 --> 02:11:36,320
Speaker 1: called introductory societies who loung get the name wrong, but

2387
02:11:36,400 --> 02:11:38,680
Speaker 1: basically they are clubs. It's like, all right, I would

2388
02:11:38,680 --> 02:11:40,400
Speaker 1: like clubs of people like I would like to see

2389
02:11:41,080 --> 02:11:43,080
Speaker 1: this new place that I live in, like the old place.

2390
02:11:43,120 --> 02:11:45,640
Speaker 1: Like the European starling was introduced in New York because

2391
02:11:45,760 --> 02:11:47,840
Speaker 1: you know, one guy, I wanted to see all of

2392
02:11:47,840 --> 02:11:51,920
Speaker 1: the birds of Shakespeare in Christ. Oh, I get even

2393
02:11:52,000 --> 02:11:55,560
Speaker 1: better for one for you. The moth, formerly known as

2394
02:11:55,560 --> 02:11:57,320
Speaker 1: gypsy moths as see as I'm gonna say that word

2395
02:11:57,640 --> 02:12:00,720
Speaker 1: um is now found in America because of this one guy.

2396
02:12:01,360 --> 02:12:02,800
Speaker 1: I'll put the name in the chat for you so

2397
02:12:02,840 --> 02:12:03,960
Speaker 1: you can say it, because I know how much you

2398
02:12:04,000 --> 02:12:09,720
Speaker 1: love saying French names. This guy is one of the most.

2399
02:12:13,200 --> 02:12:15,040
Speaker 1: Here comes the wave of comme it's a better anti

2400
02:12:15,120 --> 02:12:20,600
Speaker 1: French racism. Oh no, no, yeah, oh, I don't know.

2401
02:12:21,000 --> 02:12:26,000
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. We still get well. Nobody does about

2402
02:12:26,000 --> 02:12:30,520
Speaker 1: my Italian accent. It's just the French. It's once again,

2403
02:12:30,560 --> 02:12:36,360
Speaker 1: the Italians deserve it as well. Tell us about at end. Yeah.

2404
02:12:36,360 --> 02:12:39,160
Speaker 1: So so this guy, he was a French scientist who

2405
02:12:39,160 --> 02:12:40,840
Speaker 1: who left France. He came to the US for a

2406
02:12:40,880 --> 02:12:44,200
Speaker 1: little while. He got Massachusetts. He was also also an

2407
02:12:44,240 --> 02:12:47,480
Speaker 1: amateur entomologist, and he was like, oh, you know what

2408
02:12:47,560 --> 02:12:49,480
Speaker 1: I think American needs is I think they need a

2409
02:12:49,480 --> 02:12:51,680
Speaker 1: silk industry. Now they have a nagtive silk off. It

2410
02:12:51,720 --> 02:12:54,520
Speaker 1: doesn't produce good silk. It doesn't breed fast. So he

2411
02:12:54,600 --> 02:12:58,360
Speaker 1: brought in the the matic I gotta do the scientific

2412
02:12:58,480 --> 02:13:00,280
Speaker 1: name because we changed the name on it because the

2413
02:13:00,280 --> 02:13:02,880
Speaker 1: common name is a slur. So we're not doing so

2414
02:13:03,080 --> 02:13:06,960
Speaker 1: la matria disparo. So he brought this this moth in

2415
02:13:07,040 --> 02:13:10,000
Speaker 1: from Europe. Uh, and he started trying to breathe these

2416
02:13:10,000 --> 02:13:13,480
Speaker 1: two moths which are not related at all. It didn't work, obviously,

2417
02:13:13,920 --> 02:13:15,480
Speaker 1: and then he just kind of, you know, he went

2418
02:13:15,520 --> 02:13:17,040
Speaker 1: he went off to being an astronomer, and he just

2419
02:13:17,120 --> 02:13:19,560
Speaker 1: let these moths go in his backyard and he didn't

2420
02:13:19,600 --> 02:13:21,320
Speaker 1: tell anyone they were there. And then all of a

2421
02:13:21,320 --> 02:13:24,880
Speaker 1: sudden these things escaped, and now they're killing trees, you know,

2422
02:13:25,240 --> 02:13:28,200
Speaker 1: across the eastern United States, and they're in Washington, Oregon.

2423
02:13:28,520 --> 02:13:30,760
Speaker 1: I think they're in DC a little bit too great.

2424
02:13:31,080 --> 02:13:34,920
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's that's that's such a good parable,

2425
02:13:35,080 --> 02:13:38,000
Speaker 1: like a parallel to the invasive species that is French people.

2426
02:13:38,240 --> 02:13:42,000
Speaker 1: That really does just tie up all all aspects of

2427
02:13:42,000 --> 02:13:45,720
Speaker 1: that amazing. It makes me think a lot everything you're

2428
02:13:45,720 --> 02:13:48,840
Speaker 1: saying about cut Zoo, which which is in the I've

2429
02:13:48,920 --> 02:13:50,880
Speaker 1: heard some people say they're getting a handle on it.

2430
02:13:50,920 --> 02:13:53,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how to evaluate that at the moment,

2431
02:13:53,200 --> 02:13:55,480
Speaker 1: but when I was last living down there, it was

2432
02:13:55,520 --> 02:14:00,600
Speaker 1: just like devouring the entire southeast. Yeah, you can handle

2433
02:14:00,600 --> 02:14:02,840
Speaker 1: it again, if you want to spread it, you can.

2434
02:14:02,920 --> 02:14:04,320
Speaker 1: You can get what's called it chew groove, so a

2435
02:14:04,360 --> 02:14:06,640
Speaker 1: bunch of goats. You can get a handle on it.

2436
02:14:06,680 --> 02:14:09,280
Speaker 1: But again that's money and effort. So it's just a question.

2437
02:14:09,280 --> 02:14:12,360
Speaker 1: So you do get delicious, delicious goat made. Oh my gosh,

2438
02:14:12,680 --> 02:14:15,280
Speaker 1: I tell you what. The people who do goat invasive management,

2439
02:14:15,320 --> 02:14:18,200
Speaker 1: they haven't made. Would they do goats out to people

2440
02:14:18,280 --> 02:14:21,360
Speaker 1: they get paid for the goats and they also get

2441
02:14:21,400 --> 02:14:23,520
Speaker 1: their goats fence, or would they slaughter them they even pay?

2442
02:14:23,920 --> 02:14:26,360
Speaker 1: You know, that's a good business model as someone with

2443
02:14:26,400 --> 02:14:32,000
Speaker 1: a couple of goats. That does sound like the dream. Yeah. God,

2444
02:14:32,920 --> 02:14:35,120
Speaker 1: they don't work on all the invasive species I do.

2445
02:14:35,600 --> 02:14:37,800
Speaker 1: There are folks, so they probably don't eat those beetles.

2446
02:14:37,880 --> 02:14:40,520
Speaker 1: Huh No. No. They also don't like plants with thorns

2447
02:14:40,560 --> 02:14:44,080
Speaker 1: on them either, and it's very few goats can handle

2448
02:14:44,120 --> 02:14:47,680
Speaker 1: an entire French person either. So yeah, we can't. We

2449
02:14:47,720 --> 02:14:49,960
Speaker 1: can't trust the goats to solve all these problems for us.

2450
02:14:50,000 --> 02:14:53,440
Speaker 1: It is nice that they're helping. Um, I don't know,

2451
02:14:53,520 --> 02:14:58,720
Speaker 1: so I try to Are there things either in terms

2452
02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:01,200
Speaker 1: of like it acts people gonna take, or probably more

2453
02:15:01,280 --> 02:15:04,520
Speaker 1: more realistically, organizations people could support that you think are

2454
02:15:04,560 --> 02:15:09,480
Speaker 1: actually helping try to stop as much of the woods

2455
02:15:09,520 --> 02:15:12,720
Speaker 1: from going bad as fast or reverse the some of

2456
02:15:12,720 --> 02:15:14,480
Speaker 1: the stuff we've been talking about today, like how can

2457
02:15:14,640 --> 02:15:17,560
Speaker 1: we try to have some some room for people to

2458
02:15:18,000 --> 02:15:20,480
Speaker 1: do something, if if there is anything people can do

2459
02:15:20,640 --> 02:15:23,120
Speaker 1: other than check your fucking shoes for beatles when you

2460
02:15:23,160 --> 02:15:26,960
Speaker 1: come back from wherever, burn all of your clothing anytime

2461
02:15:27,000 --> 02:15:30,200
Speaker 1: you leave the state. Okay, that's that's a good start.

2462
02:15:30,280 --> 02:15:32,160
Speaker 1: That's a really good start. Not even to say sometimes

2463
02:15:32,160 --> 02:15:35,360
Speaker 1: it's the county to stop. When you go on a

2464
02:15:35,440 --> 02:15:37,680
Speaker 1: road trip, you stop your car at the county line

2465
02:15:37,680 --> 02:15:40,440
Speaker 1: and you roll it off of a cliff with tanner

2466
02:15:40,480 --> 02:15:43,000
Speaker 1: righte and just let it burn. But don't don't push

2467
02:15:43,000 --> 02:15:44,600
Speaker 1: out of the woods. We've seen that. How not into

2468
02:15:44,640 --> 02:15:49,000
Speaker 1: the woods? Now into the ocean where everything's fine? Yeah,

2469
02:15:49,200 --> 02:15:52,280
Speaker 1: they say, that's what they say about the ocean great.

2470
02:15:52,880 --> 02:15:55,520
Speaker 1: I don't think I work between the farfield and the stream.

2471
02:15:55,520 --> 02:15:57,920
Speaker 1: I don't do stream or water stuffers's chemistry in there,

2472
02:15:57,920 --> 02:15:59,960
Speaker 1: So I don't know what happens over there. That's fine.

2473
02:16:00,520 --> 02:16:03,120
Speaker 1: I assume everything is great there. It does seem to

2474
02:16:03,160 --> 02:16:07,600
Speaker 1: be going fine. Yah um. I think the best thing

2475
02:16:07,640 --> 02:16:09,800
Speaker 1: that you could do is in individuals, is don't cut

2476
02:16:09,960 --> 02:16:13,400
Speaker 1: random stuff loose, learn the plants of your area, learn

2477
02:16:13,480 --> 02:16:16,200
Speaker 1: what's around you and what should be there, and like

2478
02:16:16,360 --> 02:16:18,320
Speaker 1: when you see something that shouldn't be there and you

2479
02:16:18,480 --> 02:16:22,440
Speaker 1: know it's in invasive, remove it. We're legally possible. Obviously,

2480
02:16:22,440 --> 02:16:24,760
Speaker 1: don't go into like someone's like arboretum and it's like

2481
02:16:24,800 --> 02:16:28,240
Speaker 1: slight pulling plants out. That'd be real bad, burned down

2482
02:16:28,320 --> 02:16:34,400
Speaker 1: small farms wherever you find. Yeah, oh man, the egg

2483
02:16:34,440 --> 02:16:36,760
Speaker 1: people will not be happy about that. But yeah, I mean,

2484
02:16:37,840 --> 02:16:40,280
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say anything. Um So I think, you know,

2485
02:16:40,360 --> 02:16:44,400
Speaker 1: learned plants trees is neat um. And then if you, um,

2486
02:16:44,680 --> 02:16:46,880
Speaker 1: you know, think of if you're thinking about, like, you know,

2487
02:16:47,040 --> 02:16:49,000
Speaker 1: how can you help manage force? You know, if you

2488
02:16:49,400 --> 02:16:51,800
Speaker 1: lots of people either own forces or people who own

2489
02:16:51,840 --> 02:16:54,640
Speaker 1: force and you know, encourage them to get a force

2490
02:16:54,680 --> 02:16:56,879
Speaker 1: management plan or land management plan and get that. And

2491
02:16:56,879 --> 02:16:59,240
Speaker 1: then also if you got a lawn, rip your lawn

2492
02:16:59,280 --> 02:17:03,400
Speaker 1: out again where possible and use native plants. I do.

2493
02:17:03,520 --> 02:17:06,040
Speaker 1: I do some you know some lawn change stuff. And

2494
02:17:06,120 --> 02:17:08,160
Speaker 1: it's just frustrating the amount of lawns out there. It's like,

2495
02:17:08,320 --> 02:17:09,560
Speaker 1: you know, one of these people. One of these reasons

2496
02:17:09,560 --> 02:17:12,000
Speaker 1: we're losing so many you know, birds and we have

2497
02:17:12,080 --> 02:17:15,119
Speaker 1: fewer birds and bird species because like they can't eat grass.

2498
02:17:16,000 --> 02:17:19,120
Speaker 1: These things eat fruits and insects and seeds which you

2499
02:17:19,200 --> 02:17:22,120
Speaker 1: don't get in grass. So you know, if you don't

2500
02:17:22,120 --> 02:17:25,440
Speaker 1: own a force, that's fine, And I'm I'm a huge

2501
02:17:25,480 --> 02:17:26,960
Speaker 1: advocate of that. I try to be on the show

2502
02:17:26,959 --> 02:17:28,720
Speaker 1: and people, again, we always get this thing where there

2503
02:17:28,720 --> 02:17:30,560
Speaker 1: are people who will critique when we talk about some

2504
02:17:30,560 --> 02:17:33,320
Speaker 1: of these small scale solutions. Is like, oh, you know,

2505
02:17:33,400 --> 02:17:37,680
Speaker 1: turning your turning your lawn into a hermac culture garden

2506
02:17:37,720 --> 02:17:40,200
Speaker 1: with local species isn't going to like produce enough food

2507
02:17:40,240 --> 02:17:42,320
Speaker 1: to feed your families. Like, no, it's not about that.

2508
02:17:42,640 --> 02:17:45,400
Speaker 1: If you could get a couple of thousand people to

2509
02:17:45,400 --> 02:17:47,560
Speaker 1: do it, and they convince another couple and like so

2510
02:17:47,640 --> 02:17:49,760
Speaker 1: on and so on and so on, then suddenly, if

2511
02:17:49,800 --> 02:17:53,200
Speaker 1: you're increasing significantly the amount of carbon sequestered by that

2512
02:17:53,320 --> 02:17:55,880
Speaker 1: lawn and you're also making a better habitat for birds

2513
02:17:55,879 --> 02:17:58,720
Speaker 1: and whatnot, that that scales. That is a thing that

2514
02:17:58,760 --> 02:18:00,960
Speaker 1: scales if we got a single nificant number of people

2515
02:18:01,000 --> 02:18:04,039
Speaker 1: with lawns to replace them with something like we're talking

2516
02:18:04,040 --> 02:18:07,360
Speaker 1: about kill kill that grass that almost certainly isn't fucking

2517
02:18:07,400 --> 02:18:10,199
Speaker 1: native to your area. Plant stuff that is and and

2518
02:18:10,200 --> 02:18:13,360
Speaker 1: and try to reintegrate at least your lawn back into

2519
02:18:13,360 --> 02:18:16,920
Speaker 1: the local ecology. If you got a million Americans to

2520
02:18:16,959 --> 02:18:22,560
Speaker 1: do a version of that, you that's not an insignificant thing. Um. Yeah,

2521
02:18:22,600 --> 02:18:25,120
Speaker 1: And it is something that you can do in a

2522
02:18:25,120 --> 02:18:27,640
Speaker 1: lot of states, there's programs to support it. In my state,

2523
02:18:27,640 --> 02:18:31,240
Speaker 1: there's a program specifically for like changing lawns over and

2524
02:18:31,360 --> 02:18:33,960
Speaker 1: that program is backed up there out of money until

2525
02:18:35,040 --> 02:18:39,039
Speaker 1: they spent it all already. There's definitely interest there them

2526
02:18:39,040 --> 02:18:41,880
Speaker 1: a thirty five. Let you sell it to whoever, whoever,

2527
02:18:42,080 --> 02:18:44,280
Speaker 1: anyone gets it if they want it, it just goes

2528
02:18:44,360 --> 02:18:47,680
Speaker 1: up on Craigslist, all right, Yeah, put it on Craigslist. Yeah,

2529
02:18:47,760 --> 02:18:50,840
Speaker 1: give it to the highest bidder. Yeah. Um. The other

2530
02:18:50,840 --> 02:18:52,720
Speaker 1: thing you can do is go outside, like support your

2531
02:18:52,840 --> 02:18:55,879
Speaker 1: local land management agency. Most of these, like forest Service

2532
02:18:55,879 --> 02:18:59,600
Speaker 1: and park Service, they depend on money spent by users

2533
02:19:00,080 --> 02:19:03,119
Speaker 1: to go spend money at the forest. The other thing

2534
02:19:03,120 --> 02:19:05,959
Speaker 1: people can do your fucking boots first though. Oh yeah,

2535
02:19:05,959 --> 02:19:08,800
Speaker 1: definitely that. And don't don't bring shit in. Don't don't

2536
02:19:08,840 --> 02:19:11,800
Speaker 1: bring your like weird thing in, like your weird plant,

2537
02:19:11,840 --> 02:19:14,400
Speaker 1: because you don't want to kill it. Your entirely seed

2538
02:19:14,400 --> 02:19:20,080
Speaker 1: based diet. Yeah, if you don't, If you hunt, great,

2539
02:19:20,200 --> 02:19:22,840
Speaker 1: that supports conservation. If you don't want to hunt, you

2540
02:19:22,920 --> 02:19:24,760
Speaker 1: can still buy duck stamps and these other things that

2541
02:19:24,920 --> 02:19:30,240
Speaker 1: support wildlife management. In the US, wildlife is funded by

2542
02:19:30,280 --> 02:19:32,480
Speaker 1: the users, So those people who buy guns and AMMO,

2543
02:19:32,879 --> 02:19:35,120
Speaker 1: you buy arch your equipment, and who buy hunting licenses.

2544
02:19:35,120 --> 02:19:37,360
Speaker 1: So if you want to support wildlife, the best thing

2545
02:19:37,400 --> 02:19:39,040
Speaker 1: you can do is buy a hunting license, even if

2546
02:19:39,080 --> 02:19:43,520
Speaker 1: you don't hunt. That's it's kind of countertuitive, but it's

2547
02:19:43,600 --> 02:19:46,720
Speaker 1: the core of the North American mode of wildlife. Yeah. Yeah,

2548
02:19:46,760 --> 02:19:48,240
Speaker 1: that's a really good point, and it is one of

2549
02:19:48,320 --> 02:19:50,039
Speaker 1: the It's also one of those areas when we talk

2550
02:19:50,040 --> 02:19:54,240
Speaker 1: about ways in which theoretically there's room to build in

2551
02:19:54,400 --> 02:19:58,000
Speaker 1: roads between left and right in this country, conservation and

2552
02:19:58,080 --> 02:20:00,920
Speaker 1: hunting should be one right. And there are hunters on

2553
02:20:00,959 --> 02:20:03,480
Speaker 1: the right who are actually talking a pretty good, like

2554
02:20:03,720 --> 02:20:07,240
Speaker 1: reasonably about conservation, Like it is an area of shared interest.

2555
02:20:07,320 --> 02:20:11,160
Speaker 1: Everybody likes wild places, so quote unquote wild We just

2556
02:20:11,200 --> 02:20:13,440
Speaker 1: talked about how none of them are actually wild. They've

2557
02:20:13,440 --> 02:20:15,879
Speaker 1: all existed with human beings for forever. But like, yeah,

2558
02:20:15,959 --> 02:20:20,160
Speaker 1: we like we like the outdoors, yes, the outdoors. Yeah, well,

2559
02:20:20,200 --> 02:20:22,520
Speaker 1: and what you know, people have been like, so I hunt,

2560
02:20:22,560 --> 02:20:27,760
Speaker 1: I have my cross blows right over there. Crossbow. Yeah,

2561
02:20:27,760 --> 02:20:32,520
Speaker 1: you don't have to get a gun. I have been

2562
02:20:32,520 --> 02:20:34,800
Speaker 1: wanting to get a crossbow pilled for a while now.

2563
02:20:35,360 --> 02:20:39,760
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I wouldn't mind getting crossbow pilled myself. Shoulder

2564
02:20:39,840 --> 02:20:48,720
Speaker 1: holster for a crossbow. There we go. Oh yeah, that's great. Yeah. No,

2565
02:20:48,879 --> 02:20:51,240
Speaker 1: this is not a super expensive one, but it's pretty

2566
02:20:51,320 --> 02:20:54,400
Speaker 1: much a rifle. Yeah, I mean ballistically at the ranges

2567
02:20:54,440 --> 02:20:57,960
Speaker 1: who use them, there's not any meaningful difference really. Yeah.

2568
02:20:58,080 --> 02:21:00,080
Speaker 1: And if you're a person who you know doesn't like it,

2569
02:21:00,080 --> 02:21:04,080
Speaker 1: doesn't trust yourself around him, uh, they're very safe. So yeah,

2570
02:21:04,160 --> 02:21:05,760
Speaker 1: get get you one of those if you want. It's

2571
02:21:05,760 --> 02:21:08,280
Speaker 1: a fun time across. I also like it a lot

2572
02:21:08,320 --> 02:21:13,200
Speaker 1: more than my uh my guns because it doesn't yet recoil.

2573
02:21:13,920 --> 02:21:16,840
Speaker 1: But that's enough about that. Well that's great. Um, is

2574
02:21:16,840 --> 02:21:18,800
Speaker 1: there anything else you wanted to get into Calvin before

2575
02:21:18,800 --> 02:21:22,400
Speaker 1: we kind of roll out today? Uh? You touched on

2576
02:21:22,480 --> 02:21:25,160
Speaker 1: forest carbon stuff. That's a whole man a bunch of

2577
02:21:25,160 --> 02:21:28,240
Speaker 1: stuff on that. That's a whole other world. I am

2578
02:21:28,280 --> 02:21:30,520
Speaker 1: interested in talking more about that. But perhaps we should

2579
02:21:30,560 --> 02:21:34,280
Speaker 1: do have a dedicated entire thing. I mean, we should

2580
02:21:34,320 --> 02:21:36,959
Speaker 1: definitely dedicate an entire thing that it's an incredibly important

2581
02:21:37,000 --> 02:21:39,600
Speaker 1: subject UM and I think there's a lot to say

2582
02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:42,440
Speaker 1: about how different Um indigenous groups have been. Like up

2583
02:21:42,440 --> 02:21:44,480
Speaker 1: in the Northwest in particular, we have a lot of

2584
02:21:44,720 --> 02:21:47,360
Speaker 1: um kind of tribal efforts at stuff like not just

2585
02:21:47,440 --> 02:21:49,080
Speaker 1: with the with the forest, but also with like the

2586
02:21:49,080 --> 02:21:52,199
Speaker 1: coastline and whatnot in rebuilding certain populations along the coast.

2587
02:21:53,200 --> 02:21:55,800
Speaker 1: In the Midwest, Phenombera does a great job with forest management.

2588
02:21:55,879 --> 02:21:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm actually doing a webinar thing about one of our

2589
02:21:58,360 --> 02:22:01,080
Speaker 1: forest passing we're having done come talk about their management. Well,

2590
02:22:01,080 --> 02:22:02,840
Speaker 1: we invited them. I'm not actually sure if they're gonna

2591
02:22:02,879 --> 02:22:04,680
Speaker 1: do it yet, but the practice we use is based

2592
02:22:04,680 --> 02:22:06,879
Speaker 1: on what they use it there. So yeah, it's it's

2593
02:22:06,920 --> 02:22:11,840
Speaker 1: really cool what various first nations do. Yeah, I just

2594
02:22:11,879 --> 02:22:17,240
Speaker 1: want to plug trees. Yeah, my favorite type of tree

2595
02:22:17,920 --> 02:22:20,240
Speaker 1: probably the redwood. Used to live in Arcade to go

2596
02:22:20,360 --> 02:22:22,600
Speaker 1: running in them every day. Um, I know that's kind

2597
02:22:22,600 --> 02:22:24,680
Speaker 1: of a cliche answer, what's your what's your favorite tree?

2598
02:22:25,320 --> 02:22:27,280
Speaker 1: This is one behind me here, no one can see

2599
02:22:27,320 --> 02:22:30,800
Speaker 1: my background. It's white oak. You can't make white oaks.

2600
02:22:30,840 --> 02:22:34,480
Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, that is an impolittant tree. Forest products

2601
02:22:34,480 --> 02:22:36,440
Speaker 1: are like one of the only things that supports supports

2602
02:22:36,480 --> 02:22:39,160
Speaker 1: forest management. So it supports forest so it don't be

2603
02:22:39,200 --> 02:22:42,879
Speaker 1: afraid to use, you know, sustainably managed wood and wood products.

2604
02:22:44,240 --> 02:22:49,280
Speaker 1: Finding capitalism and drink a shipload of bourbon always a

2605
02:22:49,280 --> 02:22:54,840
Speaker 1: good call. Really, Um, alright, well, Calvin Norman, any any

2606
02:22:54,920 --> 02:22:59,160
Speaker 1: less pluggable to plug? Um? Plants? Uh? If you want

2607
02:22:59,160 --> 02:23:01,720
Speaker 1: to learn plants, that's great. You want to learn about

2608
02:23:01,720 --> 02:23:03,680
Speaker 1: what's going on your native you know your areas around you.

2609
02:23:03,680 --> 02:23:06,160
Speaker 1: There's lots of groups that do that. Your local extension

2610
02:23:06,160 --> 02:23:08,120
Speaker 1: service helps you out with a lot that most of

2611
02:23:08,120 --> 02:23:11,480
Speaker 1: their stuff free. So plug that. Yeah, go outside and

2612
02:23:11,520 --> 02:23:16,039
Speaker 1: plug that. I don't do twitter good. Yeah, all right, well,

2613
02:23:16,360 --> 02:23:20,240
Speaker 1: go outside, hugg a tree. Calvin Norman, thank you again

2614
02:23:20,360 --> 02:23:22,600
Speaker 1: so much for coming on. Um. If you want to

2615
02:23:22,600 --> 02:23:26,520
Speaker 1: see Calvin's original thread, just type in the woods are bad, uh,

2616
02:23:26,520 --> 02:23:29,200
Speaker 1: and it could happen here read it, or just go

2617
02:23:29,240 --> 02:23:30,840
Speaker 1: to the it could happen here, read it and scroll

2618
02:23:30,879 --> 02:23:33,760
Speaker 1: down a bit you'll find it. Um. That's gonna do

2619
02:23:33,800 --> 02:23:37,920
Speaker 1: it for us today until tomorrow. Go out into the woods.

2620
02:23:38,200 --> 02:23:40,680
Speaker 1: Who out into the woods, wash your fucking boots first.

2621
02:23:48,680 --> 02:23:52,080
Speaker 1: What grows in the forest trees. Sure you know what

2622
02:23:52,200 --> 02:23:55,959
Speaker 1: else grows in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder,

2623
02:23:56,320 --> 02:23:59,560
Speaker 1: and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect

2624
02:23:59,560 --> 02:24:06,240
Speaker 1: from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other.

2625
02:24:06,959 --> 02:24:09,840
Speaker 1: The forest is closer than you think. Find a forest

2626
02:24:09,959 --> 02:24:13,480
Speaker 1: near you and start exploring. I Discover the Forest dot Org,

2627
02:24:13,800 --> 02:24:16,360
Speaker 1: brought to you by the United States Forest Service and

2628
02:24:16,440 --> 02:24:27,680
Speaker 1: the AD Council. It could happen. Here is the podcast

2629
02:24:27,800 --> 02:24:31,480
Speaker 1: you're listening to with your ears or perhaps other parts

2630
02:24:31,520 --> 02:24:34,280
Speaker 1: of your body if you have, I don't know, some

2631
02:24:34,720 --> 02:24:39,039
Speaker 1: bizarre form of synesthesia that causes you to taste sound. Um,

2632
02:24:39,040 --> 02:24:42,800
Speaker 1: maybe you're tasting us right now. In which case, UM,

2633
02:24:42,840 --> 02:24:46,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna open up the flavor bouquet by introducing my

2634
02:24:46,280 --> 02:24:50,520
Speaker 1: co host Garrison UM and our guest for today. Why

2635
02:24:50,560 --> 02:24:53,199
Speaker 1: don't you take over now, Garrison, I've done my job great.

2636
02:24:53,440 --> 02:24:57,199
Speaker 1: That sounds lovely. Yeah, hey, Garrison, here could happen. Here

2637
02:24:57,240 --> 02:25:00,600
Speaker 1: is the podcast. We have a special guest today. UH

2638
02:25:00,680 --> 02:25:05,240
Speaker 1: journalist and researcher W. F. Thomas. Hello, Hello, it's so

2639
02:25:05,280 --> 02:25:07,920
Speaker 1: good to be here on Behind the Woman's Revolution, The

2640
02:25:07,920 --> 02:25:12,560
Speaker 1: Police Insurrection Daily. Thank thank you lovely to have you. UM.

2641
02:25:12,560 --> 02:25:15,840
Speaker 1: A lot of people say Garrison's voice tastes like sorbet

2642
02:25:16,080 --> 02:25:20,039
Speaker 1: by the way, so comment we get a lot, a lot,

2643
02:25:20,160 --> 02:25:21,800
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of a lot of those d M.

2644
02:25:21,920 --> 02:25:27,040
Speaker 1: S Um, you surprised off that. Um, So we're gonna

2645
02:25:27,040 --> 02:25:29,720
Speaker 1: be talking about something I've wanted to actually bring up

2646
02:25:29,760 --> 02:25:32,640
Speaker 1: myself for a while now, but I just have not

2647
02:25:32,640 --> 02:25:34,840
Speaker 1: put it the work in And now luckily someone else

2648
02:25:34,840 --> 02:25:37,000
Speaker 1: did the actual work, so we know we could just

2649
02:25:37,040 --> 02:25:42,599
Speaker 1: talk about it. We're talking about something called a disclosed TV, um,

2650
02:25:42,640 --> 02:25:45,440
Speaker 1: which is a broad range of things. It's not it's

2651
02:25:45,480 --> 02:25:49,120
Speaker 1: not just one thing. Uh, And I guess I'll hand

2652
02:25:49,160 --> 02:25:50,959
Speaker 1: it over to the person who did the actual work

2653
02:25:51,000 --> 02:25:54,000
Speaker 1: in terms of like how how would you describe what

2654
02:25:54,360 --> 02:25:56,959
Speaker 1: disclosed TV is? But but like before we get into

2655
02:25:57,000 --> 02:26:00,120
Speaker 1: like the journey of the platform and thing like what

2656
02:26:00,440 --> 02:26:04,120
Speaker 1: like what is it? Yeah? Um, let me start this

2657
02:26:04,200 --> 02:26:06,760
Speaker 1: off by saying it already before the publication of the

2658
02:26:06,840 --> 02:26:12,840
Speaker 1: article been publicly threatened vaguely with legal action from disclosed TV.

2659
02:26:13,160 --> 02:26:16,880
Speaker 1: So that will be largely informing what I say today.

2660
02:26:16,920 --> 02:26:20,720
Speaker 1: But we do have a lot of receipts Um. You

2661
02:26:20,760 --> 02:26:24,959
Speaker 1: have very scary lawyers here, So I'm I'm I'm excited

2662
02:26:25,040 --> 02:26:29,080
Speaker 1: whatever happens, So feel free to say whatever you want

2663
02:26:29,080 --> 02:26:33,400
Speaker 1: to say. But UM, Disclosed TV markets itself and presents

2664
02:26:33,400 --> 02:26:40,320
Speaker 1: itself as a news aggregator UM operating Twitter, UM, Telegram,

2665
02:26:40,560 --> 02:26:44,680
Speaker 1: gab getter. They have a Facebook as well as well

2666
02:26:44,720 --> 02:26:49,280
Speaker 1: as the main site where they host what one could

2667
02:26:49,360 --> 02:26:55,199
Speaker 1: describe as articles as well. Yeah, and I think Disclosed

2668
02:26:55,200 --> 02:26:59,960
Speaker 1: TV for our purposes despite like they have a very

2669
02:27:00,120 --> 02:27:04,039
Speaker 1: large Facebook presence UM. But the way that we usually

2670
02:27:04,040 --> 02:27:07,039
Speaker 1: interact with them, and specifically like me and Robert and

2671
02:27:07,040 --> 02:27:09,240
Speaker 1: then other people who are like journalists orge to anti

2672
02:27:09,240 --> 02:27:13,720
Speaker 1: fascist researchers, usually we interact with Disclosed TV on Telegram

2673
02:27:13,879 --> 02:27:16,680
Speaker 1: or through Twitter, um, Twitter, through like it's how they

2674
02:27:16,760 --> 02:27:18,640
Speaker 1: like break a lot of current events in like a

2675
02:27:19,280 --> 02:27:21,240
Speaker 1: where like you know, a lot of like political figures

2676
02:27:21,280 --> 02:27:24,600
Speaker 1: talk about them is is Twitter, UM, and then Telegram

2677
02:27:24,600 --> 02:27:27,119
Speaker 1: is where they really disseminate these out into more obscure groups.

2678
02:27:27,120 --> 02:27:28,800
Speaker 1: And maybe they change their wording because they know the

2679
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:33,680
Speaker 1: audience is a little bit different and they've been a

2680
02:27:33,760 --> 02:27:39,640
Speaker 1: vector of information for a while. Really really with the protests,

2681
02:27:39,680 --> 02:27:42,320
Speaker 1: they kind of picked up a lot of there was

2682
02:27:43,000 --> 02:27:46,720
Speaker 1: they were everywhere in terms of like saying specific things,

2683
02:27:46,840 --> 02:27:50,600
Speaker 1: not doing sourcing UM and just having like basically they

2684
02:27:50,640 --> 02:27:53,720
Speaker 1: are a place where they kind of create what then

2685
02:27:54,160 --> 02:27:57,600
Speaker 1: they try to create what the news is because of

2686
02:27:57,879 --> 02:28:00,280
Speaker 1: how isolated they are from the sources that they actually

2687
02:28:00,320 --> 02:28:03,240
Speaker 1: pull info from, and they're very they're very interested in

2688
02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:07,160
Speaker 1: kind of crafting their own version of events UM, which

2689
02:28:07,280 --> 02:28:11,400
Speaker 1: appeals to people across the spectrum. Like, they don't just

2690
02:28:11,560 --> 02:28:14,800
Speaker 1: market towards the far right wing. Sometimes they frame things

2691
02:28:14,840 --> 02:28:17,960
Speaker 1: to kind of attract of a variety of people on

2692
02:28:18,080 --> 02:28:22,280
Speaker 1: like the under the extremist banner, let's say. Um, So,

2693
02:28:22,360 --> 02:28:24,720
Speaker 1: you know, you don't just see them in far right circles.

2694
02:28:24,879 --> 02:28:27,160
Speaker 1: You see Disclose pop up in a lot of places

2695
02:28:27,200 --> 02:28:31,320
Speaker 1: because of the way they frame news and breaking events. UM.

2696
02:28:31,360 --> 02:28:33,160
Speaker 1: But they didn't always start out like this. This isn't

2697
02:28:33,200 --> 02:28:35,120
Speaker 1: what they always were. They weren't always this kind of

2698
02:28:35,120 --> 02:28:40,040
Speaker 1: content aggregator that creates their version of news. UM and

2699
02:28:40,560 --> 02:28:44,360
Speaker 1: Thomas did more research into what they were before, which

2700
02:28:44,600 --> 02:28:48,200
Speaker 1: I actually had not done that research yet. UM. So yeah,

2701
02:28:48,440 --> 02:28:51,360
Speaker 1: let's uh, let's talk about that a little bit. Yeah.

2702
02:28:51,360 --> 02:28:53,240
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna start off with talking about how I

2703
02:28:53,280 --> 02:28:57,959
Speaker 1: first heard about Disclose. UM. So I was living in

2704
02:28:58,000 --> 02:29:01,280
Speaker 1: Germany when the pandemic hit um and got COVID first

2705
02:29:01,320 --> 02:29:05,200
Speaker 1: wave in Germany in the moor march Um. Luckily I

2706
02:29:05,200 --> 02:29:08,440
Speaker 1: was totally asymptomatic. But I was kind of stranded in

2707
02:29:08,440 --> 02:29:10,959
Speaker 1: Germany for a couple of weeks, um and how to

2708
02:29:11,000 --> 02:29:15,000
Speaker 1: isolate in a vacation rental. And the Bavarian man who

2709
02:29:15,000 --> 02:29:17,760
Speaker 1: owned it just kept coming and talking to me. And

2710
02:29:17,800 --> 02:29:20,680
Speaker 1: I would tell him, Hey, it's probably not the best

2711
02:29:20,720 --> 02:29:22,920
Speaker 1: idea for you to be coming by and chatting with

2712
02:29:22,959 --> 02:29:26,840
Speaker 1: me all the time. And no, he got into talking,

2713
02:29:26,879 --> 02:29:28,480
Speaker 1: and we're talking in German. He got we got into

2714
02:29:28,480 --> 02:29:32,360
Speaker 1: talking about the pandemic, what he thought about it, and

2715
02:29:32,360 --> 02:29:34,840
Speaker 1: he started talking about how he thought, oh, the government's

2716
02:29:34,879 --> 02:29:36,720
Speaker 1: making this seem way worse than it is. You know,

2717
02:29:37,280 --> 02:29:39,080
Speaker 1: the deep state, if you know anything about that, and

2718
02:29:39,200 --> 02:29:42,959
Speaker 1: he and he said deep state in English. Um. And

2719
02:29:43,040 --> 02:29:48,199
Speaker 1: I was familiar with German farright currents at that time, UM,

2720
02:29:48,240 --> 02:29:52,840
Speaker 1: but I had never encountered a pilled German dude. And

2721
02:29:52,920 --> 02:29:56,400
Speaker 1: that's when I realized this is gonna be a fucking problem.

2722
02:29:56,520 --> 02:30:01,039
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And and it lo and behold, it has

2723
02:30:01,040 --> 02:30:04,240
Speaker 1: continued to be a problem. So as I got back

2724
02:30:04,280 --> 02:30:05,879
Speaker 1: to the U S and and the other thing when

2725
02:30:05,920 --> 02:30:07,240
Speaker 1: I was in Germany is the first time I taught

2726
02:30:07,440 --> 02:30:12,240
Speaker 1: I encountered telegram. UM when a German I knew said, hey,

2727
02:30:12,360 --> 02:30:14,959
Speaker 1: I I just don't trust WhatsApp because it's own by Facebook.

2728
02:30:14,959 --> 02:30:20,280
Speaker 1: Why don't you download Telegram In Q thousand nineteen, I think, um,

2729
02:30:20,320 --> 02:30:24,080
Speaker 1: and and it was pretty innocuous to me at the time.

2730
02:30:24,120 --> 02:30:30,520
Speaker 1: I didn't realize this would become a problem. Yeah, fast forward, UM.

2731
02:30:30,560 --> 02:30:35,120
Speaker 1: I was working on my master's project, which UM you

2732
02:30:35,120 --> 02:30:37,400
Speaker 1: can talk about more later on because it's kind of

2733
02:30:37,480 --> 02:30:40,080
Speaker 1: besides the point, UM if you don't want to hear

2734
02:30:40,080 --> 02:30:43,760
Speaker 1: about it, but looking at Telegram as the cultic milieu UM,

2735
02:30:43,840 --> 02:30:47,560
Speaker 1: using Colin Campbell's framework of the cultic milieu UM to

2736
02:30:47,720 --> 02:30:52,080
Speaker 1: understand specifically how Q and on spread in Germany and

2737
02:30:52,160 --> 02:30:57,519
Speaker 1: how Q and on interacted with these native underlying conspiracy

2738
02:30:57,800 --> 02:31:02,920
Speaker 1: narratives within Germany. UM. Because Telegram is already massively popular

2739
02:31:02,959 --> 02:31:06,160
Speaker 1: in Germany before after j six, I think of the

2740
02:31:06,200 --> 02:31:08,359
Speaker 1: band wave came down and there was much more migration

2741
02:31:08,400 --> 02:31:12,480
Speaker 1: to the platform. So you know, I did the social

2742
02:31:12,520 --> 02:31:15,680
Speaker 1: network analysis looking at the conspirat German conspiracy is seen

2743
02:31:15,760 --> 02:31:19,000
Speaker 1: on Telegram, and one of the biggest notes that came

2744
02:31:19,080 --> 02:31:20,960
Speaker 1: up and I was looking at a number of times

2745
02:31:21,000 --> 02:31:25,640
Speaker 1: shared into other groups or channels was disclosed TV. UM.

2746
02:31:25,680 --> 02:31:29,200
Speaker 1: And that's the first time I came into it. I

2747
02:31:29,400 --> 02:31:32,840
Speaker 1: look through it and realized, okay, they there is an

2748
02:31:32,959 --> 02:31:38,039
Speaker 1: editorial stance within this, UM, and that editorial stance largely

2749
02:31:38,080 --> 02:31:44,360
Speaker 1: attracts conspiracists and far right extremists to this coverage into

2750
02:31:45,080 --> 02:31:48,039
Speaker 1: you know, this is widely shared among conspiracists and far

2751
02:31:48,120 --> 02:31:53,640
Speaker 1: right extremists. UM. Fast forward. UM. I'm on Twitter, as

2752
02:31:53,640 --> 02:31:56,520
Speaker 1: many of us are, unfortunately, UM, and I saw disclosed

2753
02:31:56,560 --> 02:31:59,800
Speaker 1: TV just popping up everywhere, UM, even from people who

2754
02:32:00,000 --> 02:32:03,840
Speaker 1: who I would think should know better. Yeah, absolutely, are

2755
02:32:04,200 --> 02:32:08,920
Speaker 1: you know, big extremism researchers and journalists UM shared it.

2756
02:32:08,959 --> 02:32:11,600
Speaker 1: I remember there one specific one that really came across

2757
02:32:11,640 --> 02:32:15,080
Speaker 1: my feed UM. Disclosed had had taken a video from

2758
02:32:15,120 --> 02:32:25,400
Speaker 1: like the Blaze, Glennbex whatever about the firefighters who were

2759
02:32:25,480 --> 02:32:29,480
Speaker 1: quitting over vaccine mandate or something and had all of

2760
02:32:29,560 --> 02:32:33,720
Speaker 1: their boots or whatever. And I saw, yeah, lots of

2761
02:32:33,720 --> 02:32:37,400
Speaker 1: people sharing that as well. UM. And eventually I got

2762
02:32:37,400 --> 02:32:43,920
Speaker 1: tired of saying, hey, they should have suspect, don't share it, UM,

2763
02:32:44,000 --> 02:32:47,080
Speaker 1: and decided to write an article about it, so I

2764
02:32:47,080 --> 02:32:49,640
Speaker 1: could just send my article to people and it's really

2765
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:53,879
Speaker 1: interesting what I found. Um. Disclosed tv started off in

2766
02:32:53,920 --> 02:32:59,480
Speaker 1: the mid two thousand's as just this forum for UFOs,

2767
02:33:00,120 --> 02:33:05,680
Speaker 1: paranormal stuff, cryptids, big Foot sightings, and existed in largely

2768
02:33:05,720 --> 02:33:11,440
Speaker 1: the same format until two thousand and twenty one. Um,

2769
02:33:11,480 --> 02:33:14,320
Speaker 1: there were some shifts in in the way the site

2770
02:33:14,520 --> 02:33:18,200
Speaker 1: presented itself. UM it was. It started off as a

2771
02:33:18,240 --> 02:33:22,160
Speaker 1: member loggin where members could write articles that were largely

2772
02:33:22,200 --> 02:33:25,120
Speaker 1: long forum forum posts and then have people comment on

2773
02:33:25,160 --> 02:33:31,320
Speaker 1: them and reply. Um. And at one point, Disclosed made

2774
02:33:31,360 --> 02:33:36,840
Speaker 1: the jump to functioning as a news aggregator while including

2775
02:33:36,879 --> 02:33:39,800
Speaker 1: an editorial spin on that and including some of their

2776
02:33:39,840 --> 02:33:41,760
Speaker 1: own articles. Do you want me to get more into

2777
02:33:41,800 --> 02:33:47,080
Speaker 1: that now? Yeah? Because yeah, because like the shift was

2778
02:33:47,080 --> 02:33:49,600
Speaker 1: was it wasn't like immediate as well, right, Like they

2779
02:33:49,640 --> 02:33:51,640
Speaker 1: were starting to kind of present themselves in more of

2780
02:33:51,640 --> 02:33:56,120
Speaker 1: a news gathering way, you know, around the late s

2781
02:33:56,200 --> 02:33:58,760
Speaker 1: of course, during this became a big thing in terms

2782
02:33:58,800 --> 02:34:01,959
Speaker 1: of their social media presence. Um, they were trying to

2783
02:34:01,959 --> 02:34:05,560
Speaker 1: present themselves as like a news aggregator, right, but they

2784
02:34:05,600 --> 02:34:07,959
Speaker 1: still operated that, but they still operated the forum on

2785
02:34:07,959 --> 02:34:10,280
Speaker 1: their site throughout most of that time, and it's only

2786
02:34:10,360 --> 02:34:14,040
Speaker 1: until recently where they shut that forum down UM, which

2787
02:34:14,120 --> 02:34:16,560
Speaker 1: was you know, full of full of all kinds of

2788
02:34:16,560 --> 02:34:20,400
Speaker 1: conspiratorial nonsense. It's very easy to see past for most people.

2789
02:34:21,000 --> 02:34:26,400
Speaker 1: Uh you know, secret Arctic Ship, which is yeah, it's

2790
02:34:26,400 --> 02:34:30,640
Speaker 1: always that's usually yeah, even in to get stuff like

2791
02:34:31,320 --> 02:34:35,360
Speaker 1: watch this s j W get wrecked, which which is

2792
02:34:35,360 --> 02:34:38,120
Speaker 1: not a quotation, but just that kind of vibe, that

2793
02:34:38,240 --> 02:34:43,160
Speaker 1: style of content. Yeah, going from the forum operating then

2794
02:34:43,200 --> 02:34:45,320
Speaker 1: with they you know, their social media accounts, to the

2795
02:34:45,360 --> 02:34:48,000
Speaker 1: shift this more of like presenting as a news website.

2796
02:34:48,480 --> 02:34:50,680
Speaker 1: Talk about that and the potential effects that we see

2797
02:34:50,680 --> 02:34:54,080
Speaker 1: this having on both like the social media sites and

2798
02:34:54,160 --> 02:34:58,879
Speaker 1: just the overall trend of news aggregation in general. I guess. Yeah.

2799
02:34:59,000 --> 02:35:02,680
Speaker 1: So the first big shift that I found UM was

2800
02:35:02,720 --> 02:35:04,800
Speaker 1: the creation of their telegram channel, which is in January

2801
02:35:05,560 --> 02:35:10,920
Speaker 1: one actually, so this is relatively more recently shift that

2802
02:35:11,040 --> 02:35:18,000
Speaker 1: happened UM, and they operated their telegram as a UM

2803
02:35:18,040 --> 02:35:20,760
Speaker 1: as more in this traditional news aggregator since and so

2804
02:35:20,840 --> 02:35:23,640
Speaker 1: that's how they really blew up on Telegram. At some

2805
02:35:23,720 --> 02:35:26,440
Speaker 1: point they deleted all of their old tweets UM and

2806
02:35:26,480 --> 02:35:28,720
Speaker 1: started operating their Twitter in a similar manner. It was

2807
02:35:28,800 --> 02:35:36,160
Speaker 1: after they created this telegram channel UM in September. Actually

2808
02:35:36,200 --> 02:35:41,000
Speaker 1: overnight on septemb they completely re rebranded the site. They

2809
02:35:41,040 --> 02:35:45,960
Speaker 1: took out all the user forums UM. They included backdated

2810
02:35:46,120 --> 02:35:52,200
Speaker 1: articles to a year prior UM and looking looking through

2811
02:35:52,280 --> 02:35:56,640
Speaker 1: archives of it, there was a note saying something along

2812
02:35:56,680 --> 02:35:59,840
Speaker 1: the lines of we have found so much growth on

2813
02:36:00,120 --> 02:36:05,119
Speaker 1: social media. Are growing Telegram channel, are growing Twitter account UM,

2814
02:36:06,400 --> 02:36:09,680
Speaker 1: and something to the effect of we we are changing

2815
02:36:09,680 --> 02:36:14,680
Speaker 1: our strategy and going about this a different way UM.

2816
02:36:14,720 --> 02:36:16,520
Speaker 1: And you can if you were into the forum, you

2817
02:36:16,560 --> 02:36:20,760
Speaker 1: can join our discord UM which is funked and I'll

2818
02:36:20,760 --> 02:36:27,440
Speaker 1: get I'll get into that later UM. And yeah, looking

2819
02:36:27,600 --> 02:36:30,039
Speaker 1: it was really interesting too because looking at these backdated

2820
02:36:30,160 --> 02:36:37,360
Speaker 1: articles UM, they included very obviously plagiarized content. UM. They

2821
02:36:37,400 --> 02:36:40,120
Speaker 1: had I believe it's it's all in the article, but

2822
02:36:40,160 --> 02:36:45,840
Speaker 1: they had four journalists UM names attached with the article

2823
02:36:46,280 --> 02:36:55,680
Speaker 1: using um AI generated images for their pictures. UM. And

2824
02:36:57,920 --> 02:37:00,760
Speaker 1: the especially the articles that they themselves pulp wished. UM.

2825
02:37:00,800 --> 02:37:07,920
Speaker 1: We're very focused on UFOs, paranormal paranormal phenomenon UM, as

2826
02:37:08,040 --> 02:37:14,520
Speaker 1: well as content that could cause skepticism within an audience

2827
02:37:15,120 --> 02:37:18,959
Speaker 1: UM about vaccines, and lockdowns. And I do not know

2828
02:37:19,240 --> 02:37:23,320
Speaker 1: the intent of U their editorial board, and so I

2829
02:37:23,360 --> 02:37:26,920
Speaker 1: cannot speak on that, but of course it generated this effect. Yes,

2830
02:37:27,040 --> 02:37:30,280
Speaker 1: that is they found a way of creating content which

2831
02:37:30,360 --> 02:37:33,199
Speaker 1: develops a very specific audience, which grew their numbers, which

2832
02:37:33,280 --> 02:37:36,720
Speaker 1: made them, you know what one could assume would make

2833
02:37:36,720 --> 02:37:38,320
Speaker 1: them want to make more of that content, because that

2834
02:37:38,360 --> 02:37:41,280
Speaker 1: makes more numbers than they can UM use that to

2835
02:37:41,280 --> 02:37:46,600
Speaker 1: grow their platform. UM. Yeah, specifically leading up like after

2836
02:37:46,840 --> 02:37:50,560
Speaker 1: after January UM ramping up when of the vaccines were

2837
02:37:50,560 --> 02:37:52,320
Speaker 1: coming more and more common in the States and that

2838
02:37:52,440 --> 02:37:56,400
Speaker 1: across the world. UM, they have seen a pretty significant

2839
02:37:56,440 --> 02:38:02,440
Speaker 1: growth and have changed their platform accordingly exactly. UM. So

2840
02:38:02,920 --> 02:38:08,000
Speaker 1: we began looking into who the who the fun owns this,

2841
02:38:08,080 --> 02:38:14,160
Speaker 1: what's going on with this UM. Like all German companies UM,

2842
02:38:14,200 --> 02:38:16,560
Speaker 1: and it is based in Germany, there's a requirement by

2843
02:38:16,640 --> 02:38:19,280
Speaker 1: law to include an imprint or an impress them that

2844
02:38:19,360 --> 02:38:26,760
Speaker 1: includes an address UM contact information for the site UM

2845
02:38:27,040 --> 02:38:31,000
Speaker 1: there in the company that owns it UM, a company

2846
02:38:31,040 --> 02:38:35,840
Speaker 1: called Future Bites operates disclosed tv UM, which describes itself

2847
02:38:35,879 --> 02:38:40,760
Speaker 1: as a private equity firm and media group. UM and

2848
02:38:40,800 --> 02:38:44,160
Speaker 1: looking into the ownership behind Future Bites is a man

2849
02:38:44,320 --> 02:38:47,400
Speaker 1: by the name of Uva Brown who has a pretty

2850
02:38:47,400 --> 02:38:52,960
Speaker 1: interesting backstory. He's hosted, He's made numerous web hosting sites. UM.

2851
02:38:53,000 --> 02:38:56,520
Speaker 1: I believe he created some dating sites as well, but

2852
02:38:56,520 --> 02:39:00,920
Speaker 1: but my research was not conclusive, so that's a maybe. UM.

2853
02:39:00,959 --> 02:39:03,760
Speaker 1: But eventually he sold. He had his most success when

2854
02:39:03,800 --> 02:39:07,640
Speaker 1: he sold one of his web hosting sites to go

2855
02:39:07,840 --> 02:39:12,720
Speaker 1: Daddy for a lot of money. And along the way,

2856
02:39:13,040 --> 02:39:16,920
Speaker 1: in his own as he described, booked a flight on

2857
02:39:17,280 --> 02:39:19,840
Speaker 1: virgin to go into space and see for himself if

2858
02:39:19,879 --> 02:39:22,800
Speaker 1: the earth, if the Earth was flat. Oh my god,

2859
02:39:23,400 --> 02:39:27,880
Speaker 1: awesome cool that that, this is great, thank you. So

2860
02:39:28,000 --> 02:39:32,560
Speaker 1: this this is who we're dealing with. Um. Sweet. And

2861
02:39:32,800 --> 02:39:36,560
Speaker 1: the thing about Disclosed being based in Germany, UM, that

2862
02:39:36,560 --> 02:39:41,879
Speaker 1: that becomes an issue, UM, is that Germany has a

2863
02:39:42,000 --> 02:39:47,080
Speaker 1: very different h look at free speech than in the US. UM.

2864
02:39:47,160 --> 02:39:52,400
Speaker 1: For example, even online displaying swastikas UM and denying the

2865
02:39:52,440 --> 02:39:55,880
Speaker 1: Holocaust is legal and is a prosecutable crime that can

2866
02:39:55,920 --> 02:40:01,800
Speaker 1: get you jail time. UM. So as we explored as

2867
02:40:01,879 --> 02:40:05,040
Speaker 1: I mostly and UM, there's additional reporting from Berny Piper

2868
02:40:05,040 --> 02:40:07,920
Speaker 1: and I'll talk a bit more about that later explored

2869
02:40:08,800 --> 02:40:12,199
Speaker 1: the discord and their Telegram. We realized, Hum, it seems

2870
02:40:12,240 --> 02:40:14,959
Speaker 1: to be a lot of Nazis here, and by which

2871
02:40:15,000 --> 02:40:16,680
Speaker 1: when I say seems to be a lot of Nazis,

2872
02:40:16,680 --> 02:40:21,760
Speaker 1: I mean people with swastikas in their profile builds UM

2873
02:40:21,800 --> 02:40:26,120
Speaker 1: with you know names, referencing the Holocaust with the whispers

2874
02:40:26,160 --> 02:40:31,680
Speaker 1: parentheses um and saying denying that the hologast happened. Um.

2875
02:40:31,760 --> 02:40:36,160
Speaker 1: And also sharing the neo Nazi, famous neo Nazi, infamous

2876
02:40:36,160 --> 02:40:41,040
Speaker 1: neo Nazi propaganda film Europa The Last Battle UM, which

2877
02:40:41,720 --> 02:40:46,519
Speaker 1: was shared by prominent q and on influencer ghost Ezra. Yeah.

2878
02:40:46,560 --> 02:40:50,640
Speaker 1: I know. Um. Oh man, this this came up a

2879
02:40:50,640 --> 02:40:55,039
Speaker 1: few days ago. One of the one of the channels

2880
02:40:55,080 --> 02:40:58,840
Speaker 1: that me and someone else have been watching, uh forwarded

2881
02:40:58,959 --> 02:41:02,400
Speaker 1: me being that that that film being shared at the

2882
02:41:02,600 --> 02:41:05,040
Speaker 1: it was it was, it was that the the Free

2883
02:41:05,040 --> 02:41:09,360
Speaker 1: Oregon Telegram channel was sharing links to that and I

2884
02:41:09,760 --> 02:41:11,720
Speaker 1: wonder I would I would like to track back where

2885
02:41:11,720 --> 02:41:15,959
Speaker 1: that link came from. Um. Yeah. Not not great seeing

2886
02:41:16,000 --> 02:41:19,320
Speaker 1: that film circulate more and more, especially among like you know,

2887
02:41:19,480 --> 02:41:21,680
Speaker 1: the Free Oregan Telegram channels, you know, like anti mask,

2888
02:41:21,760 --> 02:41:26,840
Speaker 1: Anti backs, Anti lockdown channel. Yeah, and seeing the percoloration

2889
02:41:26,920 --> 02:41:31,879
Speaker 1: of that type of content. Yeah, so in preparing for

2890
02:41:31,879 --> 02:41:35,640
Speaker 1: this article, UM, with the help of of the Logically

2891
02:41:36,040 --> 02:41:41,760
Speaker 1: editorial team, I'm a freelancer UM. Their current head of content,

2892
02:41:41,920 --> 02:41:47,280
Speaker 1: Ernie piper Um, sent an email basically asking, hey, what's

2893
02:41:47,280 --> 02:41:49,840
Speaker 1: going on. You all seem to have a Nazi problem

2894
02:41:49,840 --> 02:41:55,880
Speaker 1: that's kind of borderline illegal in Germany. UM, to which

2895
02:41:56,840 --> 02:41:59,520
Speaker 1: for a while, this for for about twenty four hours

2896
02:41:59,560 --> 02:42:03,120
Speaker 1: as closed, just went totally quiet and didn't post UM

2897
02:42:03,200 --> 02:42:08,280
Speaker 1: and then came out with a post specifically targeting Ernie

2898
02:42:08,920 --> 02:42:11,920
Speaker 1: Um by name and with a picture of him and

2899
02:42:11,959 --> 02:42:15,600
Speaker 1: linking to some of his old reporting work as well,

2900
02:42:16,120 --> 02:42:20,680
Speaker 1: UM saying yes, Uva Brown owns this. He got his

2901
02:42:20,720 --> 02:42:23,720
Speaker 1: money from go daddy. You know, we value free speech

2902
02:42:23,760 --> 02:42:27,600
Speaker 1: and we condemn hatred whatnot, and and saying, oh, our

2903
02:42:27,640 --> 02:42:30,000
Speaker 1: telegram we have a tell there's a telegram group, but

2904
02:42:30,040 --> 02:42:33,240
Speaker 1: we have these rules in it and h okay, yeah,

2905
02:42:33,320 --> 02:42:35,960
Speaker 1: we we had to shut down the discord that got

2906
02:42:36,000 --> 02:42:38,879
Speaker 1: a little bit out of hand. We admit that, you know,

2907
02:42:38,920 --> 02:42:42,240
Speaker 1: they had people denying the Holocaust with swastika icons in

2908
02:42:42,280 --> 02:42:46,520
Speaker 1: their discord that they didn't seem to care too much

2909
02:42:46,520 --> 02:42:50,959
Speaker 1: about until someone pointed it out. UM. And you know

2910
02:42:50,959 --> 02:42:55,480
Speaker 1: there's there was additionally very explicit neo Nazi content in

2911
02:42:55,520 --> 02:42:58,080
Speaker 1: their telegram channel as well, with the excuse oh well

2912
02:42:58,080 --> 02:43:03,480
Speaker 1: we're glowing growing form. We we can't moderate everything. Is

2913
02:43:03,520 --> 02:43:05,840
Speaker 1: well they have. They just crossed four hundred thousand in

2914
02:43:05,840 --> 02:43:08,400
Speaker 1: their telegram channel and I think about thirty thousand and

2915
02:43:08,440 --> 02:43:15,760
Speaker 1: their telegram group, um, which is frankly bullshit. Yeah that

2916
02:43:15,959 --> 02:43:19,320
Speaker 1: is if if my personal opinion is that if you

2917
02:43:20,280 --> 02:43:23,840
Speaker 1: cannot don't have the resources to moderate this space, you

2918
02:43:23,879 --> 02:43:29,240
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't space the space. Um. And and additionally confirming oh, okay,

2919
02:43:29,280 --> 02:43:32,160
Speaker 1: we we when we made our new version of the site. Yes,

2920
02:43:32,240 --> 02:43:37,040
Speaker 1: we backdated some articles from previous user generated content that

2921
02:43:37,160 --> 02:43:40,400
Speaker 1: we you know, didn't vet properly. We're trying to fix

2922
02:43:40,480 --> 02:43:43,879
Speaker 1: that now. They removed some of those articles, um. And

2923
02:43:43,959 --> 02:43:49,000
Speaker 1: that yeah, we none of the people who who are

2924
02:43:49,040 --> 02:43:51,039
Speaker 1: the authors of our articles are real people and they're

2925
02:43:51,080 --> 02:43:55,200
Speaker 1: all pen names. Um. You know. They also have or

2926
02:43:55,200 --> 02:43:57,080
Speaker 1: at least had a tab on their website that said

2927
02:43:57,480 --> 02:44:00,600
Speaker 1: right for us and looking for people to send them

2928
02:44:00,640 --> 02:44:03,400
Speaker 1: things and saying you know, well we will disclose your

2929
02:44:03,400 --> 02:44:05,600
Speaker 1: bio and link to all your social media if you

2930
02:44:05,680 --> 02:44:08,520
Speaker 1: write a story for us. And they're there was zero

2931
02:44:08,560 --> 02:44:12,560
Speaker 1: of that happening as well. So do you think that,

2932
02:44:12,800 --> 02:44:15,280
Speaker 1: I know, like on the rules for their telegram they

2933
02:44:15,320 --> 02:44:18,880
Speaker 1: have the no Nazi stuff rule. Um. Do you think

2934
02:44:18,920 --> 02:44:21,120
Speaker 1: they're actually trying to discourage that because they're scared of

2935
02:44:21,200 --> 02:44:25,000
Speaker 1: legal stuff or is that just presentorary? And they I

2936
02:44:25,000 --> 02:44:27,120
Speaker 1: guess you know, this is just going into speculations. So

2937
02:44:27,160 --> 02:44:28,760
Speaker 1: I think this might be more a question for even

2938
02:44:28,879 --> 02:44:33,119
Speaker 1: Robert Um in terms of, yeah, like is the anti

2939
02:44:33,240 --> 02:44:36,160
Speaker 1: Nazi stuff presentorary? And because it does seem to be

2940
02:44:36,480 --> 02:44:38,640
Speaker 1: a lot of their user base is fostering that type

2941
02:44:38,640 --> 02:44:41,039
Speaker 1: of thing or is you know being moved over from

2942
02:44:41,040 --> 02:44:44,800
Speaker 1: other similar channels, um? Because yeah, like a lot of

2943
02:44:44,840 --> 02:44:47,440
Speaker 1: like the amount that we see disclose, like you know,

2944
02:44:47,640 --> 02:44:49,800
Speaker 1: intercept with channels like you know, the Rise above Him

2945
02:44:50,000 --> 02:44:52,760
Speaker 1: channel UM, and a whole bunch of like eco fascist channels,

2946
02:44:52,879 --> 02:44:55,240
Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of channels you know, on a

2947
02:44:55,879 --> 02:44:58,160
Speaker 1: like a broad range of like actual like fascist topics,

2948
02:44:58,160 --> 02:45:00,959
Speaker 1: like people who are like into fascist theory. Um. It's

2949
02:45:01,040 --> 02:45:05,720
Speaker 1: quite high that like the amount that disclosed shows up. UM.

2950
02:45:05,760 --> 02:45:07,520
Speaker 1: And I don't know, like you could look at all

2951
02:45:07,560 --> 02:45:10,320
Speaker 1: their stuff saying I mean like yeah, on their rule

2952
02:45:10,320 --> 02:45:13,760
Speaker 1: page saying no Nazi bullshit. Um but then if you

2953
02:45:13,800 --> 02:45:16,280
Speaker 1: spend any amount of time looking at where they're posts

2954
02:45:16,280 --> 02:45:19,680
Speaker 1: are forwarded, it's almost primarily people who are self describe

2955
02:45:19,720 --> 02:45:24,280
Speaker 1: themselves as fascists. Um So I mean, yeah, it's hard

2956
02:45:24,320 --> 02:45:29,359
Speaker 1: to or Donald J. Trump Jr. Yes, yes, it expands

2957
02:45:29,400 --> 02:45:31,120
Speaker 1: out into a lot of you know, just like you know,

2958
02:45:31,600 --> 02:45:36,400
Speaker 1: American journalists suits study extremism could also share discloses stuff

2959
02:45:36,440 --> 02:45:39,039
Speaker 1: on Twitter, right, that is part of their thing is

2960
02:45:39,440 --> 02:45:41,680
Speaker 1: making that and you know that that does strengthen them

2961
02:45:41,720 --> 02:45:44,240
Speaker 1: because it gives them that legitimacy. So then when people

2962
02:45:44,240 --> 02:45:45,920
Speaker 1: point out that they have Nazi problem, like, no, that's

2963
02:45:45,920 --> 02:45:48,600
Speaker 1: not us, that's just some of our users who are

2964
02:45:48,600 --> 02:45:52,519
Speaker 1: trolling or you know whatever whatever bullshit they want to say.

2965
02:45:52,720 --> 02:45:55,560
Speaker 1: Um So, I guess, like how I guess the real

2966
02:45:55,600 --> 02:45:58,840
Speaker 1: way to frame this is like how often have you

2967
02:45:59,000 --> 02:46:02,560
Speaker 1: seen Nazi stuff associated with the disclose with the disclosed

2968
02:46:02,560 --> 02:46:05,280
Speaker 1: TV brand? Because that's the one thing we actually can measure, right,

2969
02:46:05,280 --> 02:46:07,600
Speaker 1: we can't measure their intentions, but we can measure how

2970
02:46:07,640 --> 02:46:11,280
Speaker 1: often this stuff happens. Yeah, I mean that's always like

2971
02:46:11,360 --> 02:46:14,240
Speaker 1: the best way to measure that kind of thing, rather

2972
02:46:14,280 --> 02:46:18,480
Speaker 1: than just sort of like making the allegation listing like

2973
02:46:18,879 --> 02:46:20,720
Speaker 1: we find it in this many channels, we see it

2974
02:46:20,760 --> 02:46:23,879
Speaker 1: shared in these areas. It's being discussed by these people

2975
02:46:23,920 --> 02:46:27,840
Speaker 1: and like like that that's I think always kind of

2976
02:46:27,879 --> 02:46:30,760
Speaker 1: how you actually build these these sort of networks is

2977
02:46:30,800 --> 02:46:34,520
Speaker 1: by looking at what is actually spreading where like that's

2978
02:46:34,720 --> 02:46:37,959
Speaker 1: that it is thankfully something that you can measure pretty objectively,

2979
02:46:38,440 --> 02:46:40,640
Speaker 1: and like they are fostering it with the amount of

2980
02:46:41,120 --> 02:46:43,320
Speaker 1: stuff they talk about like George Soros and you know,

2981
02:46:43,360 --> 02:46:45,480
Speaker 1: the amount of stuff that they like. The way they

2982
02:46:45,600 --> 02:46:50,640
Speaker 1: frame breaking news is has that editorial bent where it's

2983
02:46:50,760 --> 02:46:53,440
Speaker 1: very clear that it's getting pushed in a specific direction,

2984
02:46:53,680 --> 02:46:57,360
Speaker 1: like there's that is that is a thing that you

2985
02:46:57,400 --> 02:47:00,360
Speaker 1: can observe by reading the type of narrow of their

2986
02:47:00,520 --> 02:47:05,840
Speaker 1: weaving via how they report information. Yeah, the the topics

2987
02:47:05,840 --> 02:47:10,760
Speaker 1: that they choose to cover, our topics that resonate very

2988
02:47:10,800 --> 02:47:17,000
Speaker 1: deeply with conspiracist and with far extremist communities. Um. If

2989
02:47:17,000 --> 02:47:20,480
Speaker 1: I had to speculate, UM, I will say at least

2990
02:47:20,760 --> 02:47:24,520
Speaker 1: since the article has come out, Um, they've done a

2991
02:47:24,560 --> 02:47:28,880
Speaker 1: better job of moderating their telegram channel at least for now.

2992
02:47:29,000 --> 02:47:33,360
Speaker 1: So good job disclosed TV. No one you can't find

2993
02:47:33,400 --> 02:47:35,760
Speaker 1: links to Europe with the last battle there anymore, you

2994
02:47:35,760 --> 02:47:41,800
Speaker 1: can still find you can still find very rampant homophobia

2995
02:47:42,120 --> 02:47:48,560
Speaker 1: slurs um because you know they didn't they clearly auto

2996
02:47:48,600 --> 02:47:51,600
Speaker 1: blocked some words, but people can shorten them or use

2997
02:47:51,640 --> 02:47:54,480
Speaker 1: different spellings for those words to still be used in

2998
02:47:54,520 --> 02:48:02,920
Speaker 1: the channel. Um. There's still anti semitic um coded anti

2999
02:48:02,920 --> 02:48:06,879
Speaker 1: Semitic references as well, UM responding to something saying oive

3000
02:48:06,920 --> 02:48:11,520
Speaker 1: a for example, which is something that tends to be

3001
02:48:11,640 --> 02:48:16,760
Speaker 1: used by a lot of neo Nazis and anti Semites. Yeah,

3002
02:48:16,840 --> 02:48:18,920
Speaker 1: I mean even and if you do any amount of

3003
02:48:18,920 --> 02:48:22,840
Speaker 1: research on Telegram, you will you will find forward links,

3004
02:48:23,040 --> 02:48:27,320
Speaker 1: forwarded links to this channel all everywhere, like if it's

3005
02:48:27,440 --> 02:48:32,200
Speaker 1: it is, it is so massive, the footprint that they

3006
02:48:32,240 --> 02:48:38,279
Speaker 1: have currently in the in like the the cycle of

3007
02:48:38,280 --> 02:48:42,879
Speaker 1: of forwarding posts specifically on telegram. UM. And yeah, and

3008
02:48:42,920 --> 02:48:44,800
Speaker 1: they're they're getting a lot of traction on it because

3009
02:48:45,000 --> 02:48:47,600
Speaker 1: they have stuff framed in a way that's really easy

3010
02:48:47,680 --> 02:48:51,760
Speaker 1: for them to have those stuff like line up with

3011
02:48:51,879 --> 02:48:56,879
Speaker 1: the communities that promote those types of worldviews um and

3012
02:48:56,959 --> 02:48:59,840
Speaker 1: promote the you know, the narratives that they want to foster.

3013
02:49:00,760 --> 02:49:05,080
Speaker 1: So let's see, let's have another quick break, and then

3014
02:49:05,240 --> 02:49:09,400
Speaker 1: let's maybe talk about your big master's project, which is

3015
02:49:09,440 --> 02:49:13,440
Speaker 1: really interesting. Yeah, can I can? I? Can? I do it? Yeah?

3016
02:49:13,440 --> 02:49:18,160
Speaker 1: I do this. You know. You know what isn't telegram? Uh?

3017
02:49:18,440 --> 02:49:21,120
Speaker 1: Literally these ads unless we get an ad by telegram,

3018
02:49:21,120 --> 02:49:25,120
Speaker 1: which we are primarily sponsored by the duo Brothers. Um,

3019
02:49:25,160 --> 02:49:29,000
Speaker 1: but that's for a separate project. My favorite ad is

3020
02:49:29,040 --> 02:49:31,080
Speaker 1: the is the one where it's the kid playing and

3021
02:49:31,120 --> 02:49:36,080
Speaker 1: they find a gun. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. And

3022
02:49:36,760 --> 02:49:38,920
Speaker 1: well we are thanks to great job. Great We hope

3023
02:49:38,920 --> 02:49:45,040
Speaker 1: everybody enjoyed that kid finding a gun of kid firing it. Yeah.

3024
02:49:45,160 --> 02:49:49,160
Speaker 1: So there's one of my favorite tweets recently was like somebody,

3025
02:49:49,200 --> 02:49:52,240
Speaker 1: it was somebody like clipped a screen grab a news

3026
02:49:52,320 --> 02:49:55,320
Speaker 1: article that was like a toddler has shot someone every

3027
02:49:55,400 --> 02:49:57,560
Speaker 1: day in the United States for the last three years,

3028
02:49:57,600 --> 02:50:02,600
Speaker 1: and somebody quote tweeted and said, somebody fucking stop him.

3029
02:50:02,640 --> 02:50:08,200
Speaker 1: It's very good. Um. The last thing I want to

3030
02:50:08,200 --> 02:50:11,600
Speaker 1: talk about is just kind of why news aggregators are

3031
02:50:11,600 --> 02:50:14,440
Speaker 1: bad in the first place, and examples of which we've

3032
02:50:14,480 --> 02:50:16,760
Speaker 1: seen the past few years, and how they contribute to

3033
02:50:16,760 --> 02:50:20,480
Speaker 1: dis information specifically, and how they don't do sourcing for

3034
02:50:20,480 --> 02:50:22,800
Speaker 1: any claims and they try to make themselves a primary

3035
02:50:22,800 --> 02:50:25,480
Speaker 1: source even though they're not. UM and then also would

3036
02:50:25,520 --> 02:50:31,800
Speaker 1: love to talk about your very fancy project. So yeah,

3037
02:50:32,000 --> 02:50:36,440
Speaker 1: we saw a lot of news aggregators that like during

3038
02:50:36,480 --> 02:50:40,960
Speaker 1: the protest, specifically that that spawned and killed many a

3039
02:50:41,040 --> 02:50:45,959
Speaker 1: news aggregator account um, which did not help things very much. UM.

3040
02:50:46,280 --> 02:50:48,360
Speaker 1: And this is this is an issue that strikes across

3041
02:50:48,360 --> 02:50:51,560
Speaker 1: the political spectrum. Yes, I mean one of the biggest

3042
02:50:51,600 --> 02:50:54,600
Speaker 1: instances of that would be an account called and on

3043
02:50:54,680 --> 02:50:59,680
Speaker 1: cat right. That was the yeah um who you know

3044
02:51:00,240 --> 02:51:03,400
Speaker 1: marketed themselves towards the left wing. UM. And again I

3045
02:51:03,440 --> 02:51:05,360
Speaker 1: don't know what their intentionality was. They may have had

3046
02:51:05,400 --> 02:51:07,560
Speaker 1: their heart in the right place. I have no idea, UM,

3047
02:51:07,640 --> 02:51:09,160
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to speculate on that right now.

3048
02:51:09,400 --> 02:51:14,160
Speaker 1: But the effect that they caused was damaging to how

3049
02:51:14,200 --> 02:51:19,080
Speaker 1: information is disseminated, specifically in high stress events UM. You know,

3050
02:51:19,360 --> 02:51:21,280
Speaker 1: like for instance, the written house shooting, you know, like

3051
02:51:21,520 --> 02:51:25,640
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Uh, like the big accounts, the demos

3052
02:51:25,640 --> 02:51:29,520
Speaker 1: around that before that, yeah, before that, yes, yeah, like

3053
02:51:29,680 --> 02:51:34,320
Speaker 1: and the in fostering that very fast paced unverified information

3054
02:51:34,400 --> 02:51:37,760
Speaker 1: circulation UM that gets you know a lot of retweets

3055
02:51:37,760 --> 02:51:39,320
Speaker 1: it gets it gets a lot of eyeballs on it,

3056
02:51:39,360 --> 02:51:42,640
Speaker 1: but but it's hard. It makes it very hard to

3057
02:51:42,680 --> 02:51:47,200
Speaker 1: backtrack claims because they do not want to link to

3058
02:51:47,200 --> 02:51:50,040
Speaker 1: other accounts, because they're mostly interested in growing their own account.

3059
02:51:50,640 --> 02:51:54,879
Speaker 1: Um so, and I will say disclose has gotten better

3060
02:51:54,920 --> 02:51:58,800
Speaker 1: about linking to the sources, even if the title and

3061
02:51:58,800 --> 02:52:02,240
Speaker 1: the tweet don't necessarily match what is in the story

3062
02:52:02,240 --> 02:52:05,840
Speaker 1: they link to. Yeah, at least someone could take a

3063
02:52:05,840 --> 02:52:09,080
Speaker 1: different interpretation from the two. Yes. So, just like you know,

3064
02:52:09,240 --> 02:52:12,640
Speaker 1: news aggregation and the way intersects with disinformation and misinformation

3065
02:52:12,920 --> 02:52:14,800
Speaker 1: not just a problem for the far right, not just

3066
02:52:14,840 --> 02:52:16,840
Speaker 1: a problem for the right wing, not just a problem

3067
02:52:16,840 --> 02:52:18,960
Speaker 1: for liberals, not just problem for leftist This is the

3068
02:52:18,959 --> 02:52:22,119
Speaker 1: thing that anyone, anyone can really grasp on to um

3069
02:52:22,160 --> 02:52:24,560
Speaker 1: And some of it's accidental, some of it's intentional, Right,

3070
02:52:24,600 --> 02:52:28,440
Speaker 1: there's some some people might just do this kind of mindlessly,

3071
02:52:28,680 --> 02:52:30,959
Speaker 1: and some people may, you know, do this aggregation with

3072
02:52:30,959 --> 02:52:33,320
Speaker 1: a very specific intent in mind. So just be very

3073
02:52:33,320 --> 02:52:36,600
Speaker 1: careful whenever you have an account that always leads with

3074
02:52:36,840 --> 02:52:41,160
Speaker 1: all caps like breaking like news. Like if if you

3075
02:52:41,160 --> 02:52:44,400
Speaker 1: have an account that always does that, maybe maybe maybe

3076
02:52:44,400 --> 02:52:46,560
Speaker 1: don't take that account super seriously all the time. Maybe

3077
02:52:46,560 --> 02:52:49,080
Speaker 1: you should uh find other sources of info that don't

3078
02:52:49,120 --> 02:52:52,200
Speaker 1: always start the tweets with breaking news and all caps

3079
02:52:52,520 --> 02:52:55,040
Speaker 1: or advice to people if they do want something like that,

3080
02:52:55,600 --> 02:52:59,480
Speaker 1: find an actual news source. Yeah, there's plenty of valid

3081
02:52:59,520 --> 02:53:04,840
Speaker 1: criticism them to be made against, you know, these mainstream

3082
02:53:05,000 --> 02:53:08,840
Speaker 1: media M s M. Centrist stuff from from you know,

3083
02:53:08,920 --> 02:53:12,240
Speaker 1: even from the left. There's there's criticism. Um, but you

3084
02:53:12,320 --> 02:53:15,119
Speaker 1: have to find some way of finding your own meaning

3085
02:53:15,160 --> 02:53:17,360
Speaker 1: and understanding of what is going on in the world

3086
02:53:17,360 --> 02:53:23,560
Speaker 1: around you. I think a CNN Reuters. Yeah, And on

3087
02:53:23,680 --> 02:53:26,440
Speaker 1: that point, I think that is part of why I

3088
02:53:26,440 --> 02:53:29,959
Speaker 1: think Disclosed can succeed and or like what they did

3089
02:53:30,000 --> 02:53:32,920
Speaker 1: can succeed, even like when I see stuff shared on

3090
02:53:32,959 --> 02:53:35,720
Speaker 1: the left, even by like anarchists, because it is a

3091
02:53:35,920 --> 02:53:38,959
Speaker 1: not mainstream media news source, the way they can frame

3092
02:53:39,080 --> 02:53:42,280
Speaker 1: things of sometimes rarely will match up with like an

3093
02:53:42,280 --> 02:53:44,760
Speaker 1: actual anarchists views and they're like, yeah, I'm gonna share

3094
02:53:44,760 --> 02:53:46,520
Speaker 1: it from this thing because it does feel like an

3095
02:53:46,560 --> 02:53:49,920
Speaker 1: underground you know source. It doesn't. It doesn't. It's not

3096
02:53:50,080 --> 02:53:52,520
Speaker 1: you're not sharing a CNN article, so you feel better

3097
02:53:52,959 --> 02:53:56,199
Speaker 1: because instead you're sharing something that is not in the mainstream.

3098
02:53:56,400 --> 02:53:59,640
Speaker 1: So like I get that, I get that pull to

3099
02:53:59,760 --> 02:54:04,120
Speaker 1: not something that is ingenuous reading of a CNN article instead, Yeah,

3100
02:54:04,160 --> 02:54:06,040
Speaker 1: but instead of you're you know, it's not actually better.

3101
02:54:06,120 --> 02:54:10,080
Speaker 1: It's just marketing. They're just tricking you via esthetics and branding,

3102
02:54:10,120 --> 02:54:13,640
Speaker 1: and that's all that it is. Right, So maybe you

3103
02:54:13,640 --> 02:54:17,119
Speaker 1: should learn learn to see past the marketing and branding

3104
02:54:17,120 --> 02:54:18,600
Speaker 1: of those types of things and look at the actual

3105
02:54:18,800 --> 02:54:23,039
Speaker 1: content of what's being shared. What is the university project

3106
02:54:23,120 --> 02:54:27,440
Speaker 1: thing that has been taking up a lot of your time? Yeah,

3107
02:54:27,480 --> 02:54:30,480
Speaker 1: and um, so you're back in the US, and I

3108
02:54:30,480 --> 02:54:34,560
Speaker 1: got interested, um, especially in looking at the spread of

3109
02:54:34,600 --> 02:54:36,920
Speaker 1: Q and on in Germany, and that you led me

3110
02:54:36,959 --> 02:54:41,600
Speaker 1: down this research path, um, and brought me especially to

3111
02:54:41,640 --> 02:54:45,640
Speaker 1: telegram um again before it was largely used in in

3112
02:54:46,879 --> 02:54:49,920
Speaker 1: right wing circles in the US. Will the Nazis have

3113
02:54:49,920 --> 02:54:53,760
Speaker 1: have pretty regularly in the US and on telegram as well. Um.

3114
02:54:54,879 --> 02:54:57,480
Speaker 1: But this led me to look at this and and

3115
02:54:57,879 --> 02:55:01,160
Speaker 1: um especially to to look at program the context of

3116
02:55:01,920 --> 02:55:07,160
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, Colin Campbell's concept of the cultic bilieu, um,

3117
02:55:07,280 --> 02:55:09,240
Speaker 1: which I don't know if y'all have talked about that

3118
02:55:09,560 --> 02:55:14,560
Speaker 1: on this we have one behind the Okay, but yeah,

3119
02:55:14,959 --> 02:55:18,440
Speaker 1: to give a quick summary, is is the concept that

3120
02:55:20,160 --> 02:55:22,760
Speaker 1: there is this space and when Colin Campbell wrote that,

3121
02:55:22,840 --> 02:55:25,800
Speaker 1: it was in I believe the seventies. So it was

3122
02:55:26,120 --> 02:55:32,080
Speaker 1: a physical space where people go to find these rejected narratives,

3123
02:55:32,120 --> 02:55:34,720
Speaker 1: you know, reject the idea of rejected knowledge, and they

3124
02:55:34,720 --> 02:55:37,520
Speaker 1: go to seek this kind of knowledge and and and

3125
02:55:37,640 --> 02:55:40,320
Speaker 1: these things. UM. So he's talking about things like UFO

3126
02:55:40,480 --> 02:55:46,240
Speaker 1: conferences or or meet ups, or or alternative bookstores, or

3127
02:55:46,360 --> 02:55:49,640
Speaker 1: perhaps maybe signing up at an institute to get a

3128
02:55:49,680 --> 02:55:57,280
Speaker 1: degree in metaphysics. Yeah, as what a weirdly specific example gears. Yeah, sorry,

3129
02:55:57,440 --> 02:56:00,640
Speaker 1: does red the red of thought? Yeah? Anyway, how's that going,

3130
02:56:00,680 --> 02:56:05,920
Speaker 1: by the way, Garrison, it's going good, good. Yeah. And

3131
02:56:05,920 --> 02:56:10,120
Speaker 1: and what you find is is people can very easily

3132
02:56:10,160 --> 02:56:16,920
Speaker 1: move between ideologies UM. And as they move between ideologies, concepts,

3133
02:56:16,920 --> 02:56:20,600
Speaker 1: specific schools, they cross pollinate these schools UM. And this

3134
02:56:20,640 --> 02:56:24,359
Speaker 1: is how you get these kind of highly syncretic movements

3135
02:56:24,400 --> 02:56:28,800
Speaker 1: like Q and on UM, like the modern conspiracy movement,

3136
02:56:29,280 --> 02:56:33,000
Speaker 1: which is incredibly syncretic, and UM some of the other

3137
02:56:33,400 --> 02:56:36,120
Speaker 1: really bad ones that are out there as well that

3138
02:56:36,200 --> 02:56:40,600
Speaker 1: combine these different views. UM. Specifically, when you start, when

3139
02:56:40,640 --> 02:56:43,240
Speaker 1: you start combining this type of like cultural mysticism with

3140
02:56:43,320 --> 02:56:48,560
Speaker 1: politics often you can have very volatile results. Yes, exactly,

3141
02:56:49,280 --> 02:56:54,600
Speaker 1: can you think of any examples? I mean, in some

3142
02:56:54,760 --> 02:56:56,800
Speaker 1: ways the modern eco fascist movement is built on a

3143
02:56:56,800 --> 02:56:58,400
Speaker 1: lot of this type of stuff, so that that would

3144
02:56:58,440 --> 02:57:01,240
Speaker 1: be the easiest, That would be the easiest. The I

3145
02:57:01,240 --> 02:57:03,680
Speaker 1: think that the syncretism of because I think a lot

3146
02:57:03,680 --> 02:57:06,320
Speaker 1: of people have been surprised to see like you know,

3147
02:57:06,520 --> 02:57:10,560
Speaker 1: kind of like natural medicine and and what not subcultures

3148
02:57:10,560 --> 02:57:14,080
Speaker 1: and eight like alien subcultures kind of colliding with Q

3149
02:57:14,320 --> 02:57:17,520
Speaker 1: and on and and these like more like far right

3150
02:57:18,080 --> 02:57:20,200
Speaker 1: neo Nazi type groups, and the fact that there are

3151
02:57:20,240 --> 02:57:22,840
Speaker 1: all of these things that were associated for years kind

3152
02:57:22,840 --> 02:57:26,520
Speaker 1: of more with the left have been increasingly um pulled

3153
02:57:26,600 --> 02:57:31,359
Speaker 1: into this this sort of um weather system of conspiratorial

3154
02:57:31,400 --> 02:57:33,080
Speaker 1: thinking has been surprising to a lot of people who

3155
02:57:33,120 --> 02:57:35,400
Speaker 1: don't understand this stuff. But it makes total sense if

3156
02:57:35,440 --> 02:57:39,080
Speaker 1: you if you have been paying attention to the scholarship

3157
02:57:39,200 --> 02:57:42,480
Speaker 1: on on what is actually like how cults sort of

3158
02:57:42,480 --> 02:57:45,800
Speaker 1: form like it's it's it's um. It's like a weather

3159
02:57:45,879 --> 02:57:48,200
Speaker 1: pattern that's been building for quite a while. There's a

3160
02:57:48,240 --> 02:57:52,039
Speaker 1: gravity to it that sucks um everything in together and

3161
02:57:52,120 --> 02:57:57,360
Speaker 1: at all kind of it's as you said, syncretic um.

3162
02:57:55,920 --> 02:57:58,760
Speaker 1: It's not to get into horseshoe through, but this is

3163
02:57:58,760 --> 02:58:01,240
Speaker 1: even how you get some of that cross over, right. Yes, yeah,

3164
02:58:01,240 --> 02:58:02,680
Speaker 1: that was that was That was what I was just

3165
02:58:02,680 --> 02:58:04,440
Speaker 1: going to mention. Is that even a lot of like

3166
02:58:04,480 --> 02:58:06,720
Speaker 1: the left wing authors or you know, post left wing

3167
02:58:06,720 --> 02:58:10,560
Speaker 1: authors who got into this like cultural mysticism. Um. You

3168
02:58:10,640 --> 02:58:14,119
Speaker 1: see their texts now getting shared by like like open fascists.

3169
02:58:14,160 --> 02:58:18,000
Speaker 1: Even though these authors were anti fascist, um, they are

3170
02:58:18,040 --> 02:58:20,240
Speaker 1: able to still pick and choose what parts they're writing

3171
02:58:20,240 --> 02:58:23,439
Speaker 1: to appropriate because some of it can kind of synchronize

3172
02:58:24,760 --> 02:58:28,440
Speaker 1: them at from opposite ends a very long time. Like

3173
02:58:28,480 --> 02:58:30,320
Speaker 1: if you we've we talked about in our Gabriel the

3174
02:58:30,400 --> 02:58:33,240
Speaker 1: Nunzio episodes Fume, which was this kind of like we're

3175
02:58:33,879 --> 02:58:37,480
Speaker 1: a large chunk of like the fascist intellectual movement got

3176
02:58:37,560 --> 02:58:40,440
Speaker 1: started um in the post World War One period, but

3177
02:58:40,480 --> 02:58:42,440
Speaker 1: also there were like a ton of anarchists and a

3178
02:58:42,440 --> 02:58:46,440
Speaker 1: lot of like left wing um like thought leaders and whatnot.

3179
02:58:46,440 --> 02:58:48,440
Speaker 1: We're kind of all it was again kind of there

3180
02:58:48,440 --> 02:58:51,320
Speaker 1: there was this kind of like gravity center that pulled

3181
02:58:51,360 --> 02:58:56,199
Speaker 1: everything in and it all started churning together and um yeah,

3182
02:58:56,200 --> 02:59:00,600
Speaker 1: we're we're we're we're seeing that happen now. Um, and

3183
02:59:01,400 --> 02:59:05,320
Speaker 1: it sucks. That's that's that's great. To jump back to Cample.

3184
02:59:05,360 --> 02:59:07,040
Speaker 1: That's one of those examples of those physical space of

3185
02:59:07,040 --> 02:59:11,039
Speaker 1: the call and that call Campbell was talking about, right, Um,

3186
02:59:11,040 --> 02:59:13,520
Speaker 1: where it's it's any place that ideas that are rejected

3187
02:59:13,560 --> 02:59:17,920
Speaker 1: by you know, the orthodox kind of the establishment. There

3188
02:59:18,040 --> 02:59:21,119
Speaker 1: is overlap. There is not necessarily ideological overlap, but there

3189
02:59:21,200 --> 02:59:23,879
Speaker 1: is an interplay between them as people move between them

3190
02:59:23,879 --> 02:59:26,720
Speaker 1: and as these ideas come into collision with one another.

3191
02:59:27,360 --> 02:59:32,199
Speaker 1: Um and with the Internet, right, whole different fucking ball game.

3192
02:59:32,840 --> 02:59:39,959
Speaker 1: Um yeah, because that space is now everywhere exactly and

3193
02:59:39,959 --> 02:59:44,200
Speaker 1: and telegram specifically has these specific affordances that make it

3194
02:59:44,320 --> 02:59:49,240
Speaker 1: ideal for having this soup of bullshit on it as well. Um,

3195
02:59:49,280 --> 02:59:53,199
Speaker 1: it's it's additionally one of and this may be changing.

3196
02:59:53,200 --> 02:59:55,600
Speaker 1: There's a lot of discussion going on about this, especially

3197
02:59:55,680 --> 02:59:58,400
Speaker 1: within the German government, who could actually they already have

3198
02:59:58,440 --> 03:00:00,840
Speaker 1: a law that they could use to say, hey, you

3199
03:00:00,840 --> 03:00:03,199
Speaker 1: can't have Nazis on you can't have this Nazi ship

3200
03:00:03,760 --> 03:00:07,680
Speaker 1: in telegram. Um. But telegram is one of these last

3201
03:00:07,680 --> 03:00:11,279
Speaker 1: places where where things are largely allowed to spread without

3202
03:00:11,400 --> 03:00:16,160
Speaker 1: any kind of interruption, right, um, which I do think

3203
03:00:16,200 --> 03:00:19,160
Speaker 1: you know you look at Telegram is used in in um,

3204
03:00:19,280 --> 03:00:22,039
Speaker 1: the Hong Kong uprising as well, it was used for

3205
03:00:22,840 --> 03:00:25,600
Speaker 1: it was used in the George Yeah, that George Floyd

3206
03:00:26,160 --> 03:00:29,520
Speaker 1: uprising as well. Um, and it's the same things that

3207
03:00:30,560 --> 03:00:33,640
Speaker 1: people too at time is fake, um, bolish line of

3208
03:00:33,640 --> 03:00:39,400
Speaker 1: your time. Um, but shooting your clock, shoot the fucking clock.

3209
03:00:39,520 --> 03:00:44,240
Speaker 1: But okay, let's get back to the topic. Yeah, but

3210
03:00:44,240 --> 03:00:46,640
Speaker 1: but but but drumming back into this Telegram markets itself,

3211
03:00:46,720 --> 03:00:50,400
Speaker 1: is this very secure platform. It's probably not right. It

3212
03:00:50,480 --> 03:00:53,920
Speaker 1: does have it's certainly not absolutely not. It does have

3213
03:00:54,280 --> 03:00:57,000
Speaker 1: it does have encrypted chats, but that's only for one

3214
03:00:57,040 --> 03:01:00,320
Speaker 1: to one messaging between people. And even then you need

3215
03:01:00,360 --> 03:01:02,440
Speaker 1: to go and make you sure that security settings right.

3216
03:01:02,480 --> 03:01:06,240
Speaker 1: And again I I don't fully trust that. Yeah, I

3217
03:01:06,240 --> 03:01:15,240
Speaker 1: don't fully try. I mean signal is about barely trust signal. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

3218
03:01:15,280 --> 03:01:18,640
Speaker 1: I trust conversations. When everyone has put their phone inside

3219
03:01:18,640 --> 03:01:21,080
Speaker 1: a Faraday bag in a house and then we walked

3220
03:01:21,120 --> 03:01:24,119
Speaker 1: two miles into we walked two miles into the woods,

3221
03:01:24,160 --> 03:01:28,240
Speaker 1: then you can have a conversation. Yeah, um, but tell

3222
03:01:28,240 --> 03:01:30,840
Speaker 1: grand market itself is a very secure app, right UM,

3223
03:01:31,640 --> 03:01:33,760
Speaker 1: which is which is largely marketing. You know, it's it's

3224
03:01:33,760 --> 03:01:35,640
Speaker 1: appeal is that it's not what's app, it's not owned

3225
03:01:35,680 --> 03:01:38,959
Speaker 1: by Facebook. It's probably worth acknowledging that for because it's

3226
03:01:38,959 --> 03:01:41,720
Speaker 1: also very popular with a lot of people in UM

3227
03:01:41,800 --> 03:01:43,920
Speaker 1: you know, parts of the Global South and countries with

3228
03:01:43,920 --> 03:01:46,360
Speaker 1: authoritarian governments, and it is has been used for a

3229
03:01:46,440 --> 03:01:49,680
Speaker 1: lot of organizing. It can be more secure and all

3230
03:01:49,920 --> 03:01:55,240
Speaker 1: more secure but also more able than what than any

3231
03:01:55,240 --> 03:01:57,640
Speaker 1: other tool people have access to. I mean in Syria

3232
03:01:57,760 --> 03:02:01,480
Speaker 1: it's like it's again extremely and for like neighbors, like

3233
03:02:01,520 --> 03:02:04,240
Speaker 1: neighborhoods and towns will have like Telegram groups for this

3234
03:02:04,280 --> 03:02:06,560
Speaker 1: little village where they a lot of stuff gets done

3235
03:02:06,600 --> 03:02:09,440
Speaker 1: over Telegram in places like that, and telegram sits in

3236
03:02:09,480 --> 03:02:13,640
Speaker 1: this interesting space between social media. UM. It's not a

3237
03:02:13,640 --> 03:02:15,480
Speaker 1: full on social media site, but it's also not just

3238
03:02:15,600 --> 03:02:19,920
Speaker 1: a messaging Applegram. It's kind of to categorize. It is

3239
03:02:19,920 --> 03:02:23,040
Speaker 1: an interesting sort of like in between type thing. Yeah,

3240
03:02:23,040 --> 03:02:27,080
Speaker 1: because you can have essentially unlimited I think the number

3241
03:02:27,120 --> 03:02:29,440
Speaker 1: is in the hundreds of thousands for how many people

3242
03:02:29,480 --> 03:02:33,879
Speaker 1: can join a group message UM on Telegram. And you

3243
03:02:33,920 --> 03:02:37,240
Speaker 1: also have these one way messaging thing called channels where

3244
03:02:37,320 --> 03:02:39,160
Speaker 1: where one person or group of people can send out

3245
03:02:39,160 --> 03:02:45,640
Speaker 1: messages that appear alongside everyone else's message feed as well. UM,

3246
03:02:45,680 --> 03:02:48,000
Speaker 1: and that can you can also enable comments on that UM,

3247
03:02:48,000 --> 03:02:50,879
Speaker 1: which I'll get into and a second UM. But but

3248
03:02:51,000 --> 03:02:53,800
Speaker 1: it's a great way to share information as well. What

3249
03:02:53,920 --> 03:02:57,320
Speaker 1: I was specifically looking at is the forwarding of messages,

3250
03:02:57,320 --> 03:02:59,360
Speaker 1: because you you can forward a message from this one

3251
03:02:59,440 --> 03:03:02,720
Speaker 1: channel into whatever group chat you're in, and it links

3252
03:03:02,760 --> 03:03:05,160
Speaker 1: back to that channel. And I was interested in saying,

3253
03:03:05,840 --> 03:03:08,360
Speaker 1: how far you know, what connections can we make from this?

3254
03:03:08,440 --> 03:03:12,560
Speaker 1: What kind of zigzagging can we find? UM enhancer is

3255
03:03:12,600 --> 03:03:18,440
Speaker 1: sucking a lot UM where where someone may may use

3256
03:03:18,560 --> 03:03:22,040
Speaker 1: telegram for for example, a neighborhood group message right, and

3257
03:03:22,080 --> 03:03:25,560
Speaker 1: then someone forwards a messages a message for this channel

3258
03:03:25,959 --> 03:03:28,840
Speaker 1: UM or for this other group message UM where they

3259
03:03:28,879 --> 03:03:31,879
Speaker 1: talk about, oh, here's kind of help practices to use,

3260
03:03:31,920 --> 03:03:35,720
Speaker 1: and then you get into the pseudo science of things

3261
03:03:35,720 --> 03:03:38,840
Speaker 1: crossing into further messages from what's forward forward groups and

3262
03:03:38,879 --> 03:03:41,520
Speaker 1: channels from what's forwarded into that group and channel, and

3263
03:03:41,520 --> 03:03:44,240
Speaker 1: so on so on until you get to the neo nazis. Eventually,

3264
03:03:44,840 --> 03:03:47,880
Speaker 1: UM and it's also it is it is a concerted

3265
03:03:47,959 --> 03:03:52,240
Speaker 1: effort on the part of people pushing their ideology, who

3266
03:03:52,280 --> 03:03:56,320
Speaker 1: will go in the comments of these giant channels and say, hey,

3267
03:03:56,560 --> 03:04:01,720
Speaker 1: check out my channel. Um, what's not a real one?

3268
03:04:01,840 --> 03:04:05,400
Speaker 1: You know Ariyan cooking, which is probably a channel, but

3269
03:04:05,440 --> 03:04:10,160
Speaker 1: it probably is. Yeah, great job checking. Sorry, but check

3270
03:04:10,160 --> 03:04:12,640
Speaker 1: out check out, check out, check out this or whatever.

3271
03:04:12,800 --> 03:04:16,720
Speaker 1: And and especially when q and on moved on, a

3272
03:04:16,760 --> 03:04:23,160
Speaker 1: lot of promoters. Um, there there was organized groups of

3273
03:04:23,160 --> 03:04:25,920
Speaker 1: of Internet neo Nazis going on and trying to pill

3274
03:04:25,959 --> 03:04:30,560
Speaker 1: boomers into neo Nazism. And there because of the because

3275
03:04:30,600 --> 03:04:32,959
Speaker 1: of the mesh like network of Telegram, they try to

3276
03:04:33,040 --> 03:04:36,840
Speaker 1: make those meshes connect via dissemination. Right you can. You know,

3277
03:04:36,840 --> 03:04:39,520
Speaker 1: people who are dedicated to these more esoteric groups can

3278
03:04:39,640 --> 03:04:43,480
Speaker 1: join more regular like Marga groups or qut on groups

3279
03:04:43,760 --> 03:04:47,280
Speaker 1: and start slowly bringing links to the start doing links

3280
03:04:47,280 --> 03:04:51,879
Speaker 1: and forwarding to the more extreme channels. Um and eventually yeah,

3281
03:04:51,879 --> 03:04:53,760
Speaker 1: that does that does work. It can be a slow,

3282
03:04:53,800 --> 03:04:57,199
Speaker 1: careful process um or it can be very fast and

3283
03:04:57,720 --> 03:05:01,720
Speaker 1: like bombastic. And it'll depending on the person. One of

3284
03:05:01,720 --> 03:05:04,720
Speaker 1: them will latch onto one one to watch onto the other. Yeah.

3285
03:05:04,760 --> 03:05:08,720
Speaker 1: And and before the article came out. UM, what I

3286
03:05:08,720 --> 03:05:12,720
Speaker 1: did see was the specific thing of accounts that I

3287
03:05:12,720 --> 03:05:16,959
Speaker 1: would associate or or believe to be neo Nazi UM

3288
03:05:17,080 --> 03:05:20,440
Speaker 1: encouraging people to join their groups and channels UM in

3289
03:05:20,480 --> 03:05:24,720
Speaker 1: the in the telegram group message as well. And I

3290
03:05:24,760 --> 03:05:26,720
Speaker 1: cannot speak to what that looks like right now after

3291
03:05:26,760 --> 03:05:31,120
Speaker 1: the article has come out, and I've been trying to

3292
03:05:31,160 --> 03:05:33,720
Speaker 1: take a break from Telegram for my day to day life,

3293
03:05:34,080 --> 03:05:37,760
Speaker 1: UM and focus on reading actual books. So but yeah,

3294
03:05:37,800 --> 03:05:39,800
Speaker 1: that is I can always tell when one of us

3295
03:05:39,800 --> 03:05:43,960
Speaker 1: has been spending time on Telegram, because the things we

3296
03:05:44,000 --> 03:05:49,760
Speaker 1: consider jokes get much worse. Yeah, you remember when I

3297
03:05:49,800 --> 03:05:54,880
Speaker 1: found that playlist of Blinks covers. It was what there

3298
03:05:54,959 --> 03:06:03,400
Speaker 1: was like a hundred of them something. Yeah, you always

3299
03:06:03,440 --> 03:06:06,000
Speaker 1: find you could, you could find the most fucked up stuff. A.

3300
03:06:06,160 --> 03:06:09,640
Speaker 1: Don't don't do it. Don't don't scroll untilolutely do not.

3301
03:06:09,920 --> 03:06:12,440
Speaker 1: You're not going to get this isn't like coveting the state.

3302
03:06:12,480 --> 03:06:16,240
Speaker 1: You don't even like it's it's not even it's not

3303
03:06:16,320 --> 03:06:19,760
Speaker 1: worth it, like there's no sacred novit like knowledge that

3304
03:06:19,760 --> 03:06:22,840
Speaker 1: we're hiding. It's just it's it's just kind of sucks,

3305
03:06:23,160 --> 03:06:25,720
Speaker 1: like it just like it just to feel bad. Yeah,

3306
03:06:25,800 --> 03:06:29,560
Speaker 1: it just makes you feel worse about life and yourself

3307
03:06:29,720 --> 03:06:32,560
Speaker 1: and the people around you. So the scope for your

3308
03:06:32,640 --> 03:06:35,200
Speaker 1: master's project what it's kind of the what's the what's

3309
03:06:35,200 --> 03:06:40,640
Speaker 1: the deal with like tying these things together? I guess yeah. Yeah.

3310
03:06:40,640 --> 03:06:43,200
Speaker 1: So so using this social network analysis to argue that

3311
03:06:43,440 --> 03:06:49,560
Speaker 1: the telegram does function as this cultake milieu, um, which yeah,

3312
03:06:49,760 --> 03:06:55,480
Speaker 1: it seems seems to be, which seems to be the case. Yeah, um,

3313
03:06:55,560 --> 03:06:57,800
Speaker 1: you know, and the question gets into what is the

3314
03:06:57,840 --> 03:07:01,600
Speaker 1: responsibility the platform? Right? Um? Because I fully believe there

3315
03:07:01,680 --> 03:07:07,119
Speaker 1: should be something at least similar to this. It has

3316
03:07:07,160 --> 03:07:09,360
Speaker 1: been used for you know, purposes the line with all

3317
03:07:09,400 --> 03:07:15,480
Speaker 1: politics in which I would call good and needed. Um. However,

3318
03:07:15,520 --> 03:07:20,480
Speaker 1: they've also allowed this fucking awful ecosystem to spread. It's

3319
03:07:20,520 --> 03:07:22,720
Speaker 1: it's interesting to see when Telegram has had to step

3320
03:07:22,760 --> 03:07:25,400
Speaker 1: in and they you know, they have pulled down some ices,

3321
03:07:25,440 --> 03:07:31,440
Speaker 1: accounts and channels. Um. And and they have down when

3322
03:07:31,480 --> 03:07:34,000
Speaker 1: I was in um Al Hall, which is that the

3323
03:07:34,040 --> 03:07:36,320
Speaker 1: camp where all the ISIS prisoners were in Syria. Like

3324
03:07:36,400 --> 03:07:38,520
Speaker 1: while Jake and I were in the camp, we could

3325
03:07:38,560 --> 03:07:42,360
Speaker 1: see on telegram like ISIS supporters and al hole talking

3326
03:07:42,400 --> 03:07:46,560
Speaker 1: about stabbing guards like in real time. It was not

3327
03:07:47,040 --> 03:07:51,400
Speaker 1: particularly Uh, they've done like a lot. There's less of

3328
03:07:51,400 --> 03:07:53,000
Speaker 1: it than there used to be, but it is still

3329
03:07:53,040 --> 03:07:55,680
Speaker 1: not hard to find iss on telegram. Yeah, and they

3330
03:07:55,800 --> 03:08:00,800
Speaker 1: they've taken down a few amounts of neo Nazi channels. Um.

3331
03:08:00,800 --> 03:08:04,320
Speaker 1: It's it's funny because oh God, maybe cut this. But

3332
03:08:04,840 --> 03:08:06,640
Speaker 1: they've taken on some of the new channels when they've

3333
03:08:06,640 --> 03:08:10,240
Speaker 1: shared ice as ship for example. Yeah, yeah, I think

3334
03:08:10,480 --> 03:08:13,320
Speaker 1: we're we've we're familiar with that line of thing. That's

3335
03:08:13,320 --> 03:08:17,280
Speaker 1: something we've mentioned before. Okay. There has been pressure from

3336
03:08:17,320 --> 03:08:20,360
Speaker 1: from the play store and Google as well, or the

3337
03:08:20,360 --> 03:08:23,800
Speaker 1: play store from Google and and the app store Apples,

3338
03:08:23,800 --> 03:08:27,400
Speaker 1: app store from Apple to say we we aren't going

3339
03:08:27,480 --> 03:08:31,160
Speaker 1: to carry the app if you don't do just a

3340
03:08:31,160 --> 03:08:35,800
Speaker 1: tiny bit better essentially um which which which also it

3341
03:08:35,840 --> 03:08:38,960
Speaker 1: exists as a web client, um both as as a

3342
03:08:38,959 --> 03:08:42,520
Speaker 1: web client and as a desktop app as well. UM.

3343
03:08:42,560 --> 03:08:46,600
Speaker 1: But that would you know, limits some of it. Um. So.

3344
03:08:46,600 --> 03:08:50,560
Speaker 1: So this has become largely discussed in the German in

3345
03:08:50,600 --> 03:08:54,120
Speaker 1: the German Parliament because there's a new um, there's a

3346
03:08:54,120 --> 03:08:57,560
Speaker 1: new government in Germany, and and there is this history

3347
03:08:57,680 --> 03:09:04,560
Speaker 1: of Germany kind of is the lead for doing things

3348
03:09:04,600 --> 03:09:08,920
Speaker 1: about this digital content, especially within the EU. And and

3349
03:09:08,959 --> 03:09:11,360
Speaker 1: as I mentioned, there's already law call Adopt Enforcement Act

3350
03:09:11,360 --> 03:09:15,800
Speaker 1: that requires platforms to take down content in Germany. Um,

3351
03:09:15,879 --> 03:09:17,959
Speaker 1: they could be implemented on telegram as well. There's already

3352
03:09:17,959 --> 03:09:24,360
Speaker 1: a law. Yeah. I mean, this is like the thing

3353
03:09:24,360 --> 03:09:26,920
Speaker 1: why you know what I watch happen lots is you know,

3354
03:09:27,240 --> 03:09:29,039
Speaker 1: these channels will get shut down and they'll make a

3355
03:09:29,080 --> 03:09:30,760
Speaker 1: new one, and it will shut down that one and

3356
03:09:30,760 --> 03:09:32,360
Speaker 1: make a new one. Right. It's this You see this

3357
03:09:32,400 --> 03:09:35,240
Speaker 1: with like discord servers, telegram channels. It is kind of

3358
03:09:35,240 --> 03:09:38,560
Speaker 1: this endless cycle, um. And seeking an end to the cycle.

3359
03:09:39,200 --> 03:09:43,920
Speaker 1: It's always not as easy as what one would hope, um,

3360
03:09:43,959 --> 03:09:46,760
Speaker 1: because of the cyclical nature of building these platforms and

3361
03:09:46,800 --> 03:09:49,480
Speaker 1: connections and how the people who run these you know,

3362
03:09:49,600 --> 03:09:52,360
Speaker 1: intersect and specifically with with telegrams really easy because the

3363
03:09:52,440 --> 03:09:54,600
Speaker 1: channel gets shut down, you're still part of twelve of

3364
03:09:54,720 --> 03:09:56,760
Speaker 1: the channels, and odds are one of those channels is

3365
03:09:56,760 --> 03:09:58,480
Speaker 1: going to afford you the link to the new channel

3366
03:09:58,560 --> 03:10:00,800
Speaker 1: that was that was lost. Uh. Yeah, And this is

3367
03:10:00,800 --> 03:10:02,720
Speaker 1: the thing you see where they send lists of channels

3368
03:10:03,720 --> 03:10:06,280
Speaker 1: within within extremest groups and channels they will send out

3369
03:10:06,280 --> 03:10:08,400
Speaker 1: lists of here's other groups and channels to check out

3370
03:10:08,440 --> 03:10:12,160
Speaker 1: as well. Yeah, but I mean I would. So that's

3371
03:10:12,160 --> 03:10:14,800
Speaker 1: something that's you know, hard for regular people to actually do.

3372
03:10:15,000 --> 03:10:17,760
Speaker 1: But something I think that people who do not own

3373
03:10:17,800 --> 03:10:23,359
Speaker 1: these platforms nor lawmakers can't think about is particularly the

3374
03:10:23,200 --> 03:10:26,080
Speaker 1: the the cultic milieu that does you know, go past

3375
03:10:26,200 --> 03:10:29,840
Speaker 1: regular left right divisions in terms of politics and how

3376
03:10:29,920 --> 03:10:34,320
Speaker 1: you know, symbol like symbology, um and stuff that was

3377
03:10:34,440 --> 03:10:38,360
Speaker 1: you know initially you know, perhaps more anarchist or or

3378
03:10:38,480 --> 03:10:41,920
Speaker 1: left wing is being used by people on the right,

3379
03:10:42,000 --> 03:10:44,840
Speaker 1: and some people are really confused by that, and there

3380
03:10:44,879 --> 03:10:46,680
Speaker 1: is ways to there is ways to understand it like

3381
03:10:46,720 --> 03:10:49,040
Speaker 1: it is. It does. I am very frustrated when I

3382
03:10:49,080 --> 03:10:53,320
Speaker 1: look at you know, people online who don't understand why

3383
03:10:53,600 --> 03:10:57,320
Speaker 1: Nazis can use ted K and right, it's like, yeah,

3384
03:10:57,400 --> 03:10:58,959
Speaker 1: like it's it's not it's it's not it's not not

3385
03:10:58,959 --> 03:11:00,840
Speaker 1: not what it's not not really about Ted K actually

3386
03:11:00,840 --> 03:11:05,600
Speaker 1: wrote it's more than the symbolic meme of ted K.

3387
03:11:06,240 --> 03:11:08,280
Speaker 1: And trying to you know, get that, get that line

3388
03:11:08,280 --> 03:11:11,080
Speaker 1: of thinking across is not the easiest thing, because sometimes

3389
03:11:11,080 --> 03:11:12,400
Speaker 1: it will go in the other direction and be like,

3390
03:11:12,520 --> 03:11:14,959
Speaker 1: oh ted K is a Nazi, which isn't accurate either,

3391
03:11:15,040 --> 03:11:17,160
Speaker 1: Like that's that's not also the most accurate thing to say,

3392
03:11:17,400 --> 03:11:21,920
Speaker 1: So it's it's the cultivalu framework of being. Yeah, sometimes

3393
03:11:21,920 --> 03:11:23,960
Speaker 1: these symbols can cross over from one thing to another,

3394
03:11:24,320 --> 03:11:26,320
Speaker 1: and sometimes the action can be the same. You know,

3395
03:11:26,440 --> 03:11:29,959
Speaker 1: both anarchists and like insurrectionary fascists both want to like

3396
03:11:30,000 --> 03:11:34,039
Speaker 1: attack like industrialization and attack points of industry, right, but

3397
03:11:34,200 --> 03:11:37,480
Speaker 1: maybe their ideologies are slightly different, sometimes in specific ways.

3398
03:11:37,800 --> 03:11:42,360
Speaker 1: So it's always a tricky thing to kind of navigate. Um.

3399
03:11:42,400 --> 03:11:44,520
Speaker 1: So I think in terms of you know, people should

3400
03:11:44,560 --> 03:11:47,600
Speaker 1: think about what symbols they promote, uh like publicly and

3401
03:11:47,640 --> 03:11:51,160
Speaker 1: stuff is a good thing, and think about news aggregation

3402
03:11:51,320 --> 03:11:55,680
Speaker 1: and how to maybe not not just share something because

3403
03:11:55,680 --> 03:11:59,240
Speaker 1: it's countercultural, trying to figure out what other what other

3404
03:11:59,280 --> 03:12:04,120
Speaker 1: types of narrative the sources spreading UMO journalist support the

3405
03:12:04,120 --> 03:12:06,199
Speaker 1: work of real journalist because a bunch of kick asks

3406
03:12:06,200 --> 03:12:09,920
Speaker 1: people out there, um who are doing awesome research and work.

3407
03:12:11,720 --> 03:12:13,879
Speaker 1: So I think that kind of wraps up the scope

3408
03:12:13,879 --> 03:12:16,480
Speaker 1: of what I want to talk about around disclose specifically

3409
03:12:16,480 --> 03:12:18,959
Speaker 1: because I mean discloses a thing, but it's also like

3410
03:12:19,280 --> 03:12:21,200
Speaker 1: it's good as just like an example to like this

3411
03:12:21,360 --> 03:12:25,400
Speaker 1: overly this broader like phenomenon. I think, um, because like

3412
03:12:25,440 --> 03:12:28,720
Speaker 1: Disclose won't be here forever, hopefully, like you know, hopefully

3413
03:12:28,720 --> 03:12:30,320
Speaker 1: in a few years. It's something that we can just

3414
03:12:30,360 --> 03:12:33,680
Speaker 1: like look back on and laugh about. Um. But it's

3415
03:12:33,720 --> 03:12:36,480
Speaker 1: you know, it's still a good signifier for a phenomenon

3416
03:12:36,520 --> 03:12:39,640
Speaker 1: that happens. And the phenomenon even even if Disclose goes away,

3417
03:12:39,760 --> 03:12:42,080
Speaker 1: the phenomenon is still going to stay, um, And it's

3418
03:12:42,080 --> 03:12:44,440
Speaker 1: important to point it out when you see whatever the

3419
03:12:44,520 --> 03:12:47,520
Speaker 1: next version of this is. So. And I'll also say

3420
03:12:47,560 --> 03:12:51,440
Speaker 1: that the culticnalu isn't necessarily a bad thing. Right. This

3421
03:12:51,520 --> 03:12:53,920
Speaker 1: is you know, where where the stuff that is rejected

3422
03:12:53,920 --> 03:12:58,600
Speaker 1: by the Orthodox goes and clearly eliminating right, any kind

3423
03:12:58,600 --> 03:13:00,879
Speaker 1: of culticnal you just means everything is exactly the fucking

3424
03:13:00,879 --> 03:13:03,600
Speaker 1: same and falls in line with or thoughts belief which

3425
03:13:03,640 --> 03:13:06,840
Speaker 1: I strongly disagree with as well. No, there's there is

3426
03:13:06,879 --> 03:13:11,879
Speaker 1: a way to be countercultural without being a conspiratorial fascist.

3427
03:13:12,879 --> 03:13:16,080
Speaker 1: I would say that most responsibility in which you were

3428
03:13:16,080 --> 03:13:18,640
Speaker 1: consuming and sharing, Yes, And I would say like most

3429
03:13:18,680 --> 03:13:21,840
Speaker 1: people who are actually counterculture are yeah, like actual punk

3430
03:13:22,360 --> 03:13:26,080
Speaker 1: is is that you know, once you're enforcing traditional hierarchical

3431
03:13:26,200 --> 03:13:30,440
Speaker 1: viewpoints that that ain't punk. That is uh, that's playing

3432
03:13:30,480 --> 03:13:34,280
Speaker 1: into what the status quo was. That isn't that isn't revolutionary.

3433
03:13:36,240 --> 03:13:40,880
Speaker 1: Pistols would disagree with you, aren't they all? Yeah? But

3434
03:13:41,200 --> 03:13:43,440
Speaker 1: I think we can all agree that having living members

3435
03:13:43,440 --> 03:13:46,320
Speaker 1: of the sex Pistols was a mistake, and I would

3436
03:13:46,440 --> 03:13:49,680
Speaker 1: I prefer Alana Wachowski's version of punk to theirs anyway.

3437
03:13:49,800 --> 03:13:54,320
Speaker 1: So hey, who cares? UM? So thank you for your work,

3438
03:13:54,400 --> 03:13:58,280
Speaker 1: Thomas Um. I recommend people reach your article, UM, which

3439
03:13:58,280 --> 03:14:02,120
Speaker 1: you can do by googling disclosed TV. Now it will

3440
03:14:02,240 --> 03:14:04,240
Speaker 1: be for me. It's the second result that pops up.

3441
03:14:04,240 --> 03:14:07,240
Speaker 1: So that's gool um. Send it to all your friends

3442
03:14:07,240 --> 03:14:09,800
Speaker 1: and mutuals who are sharing disclosed TV. UM. You can

3443
03:14:09,800 --> 03:14:13,120
Speaker 1: find it on logically dot Ai is the website and

3444
03:14:13,160 --> 03:14:16,320
Speaker 1: the full title of the article is Disclosed TV Conspiracy

3445
03:14:16,360 --> 03:14:21,039
Speaker 1: Forum turned disinformation Factory. Thank you, Thank you for that. UM.

3446
03:14:21,160 --> 03:14:23,280
Speaker 1: Do you want to direct people to your Twitter account

3447
03:14:23,320 --> 03:14:24,760
Speaker 1: or do you want to be a ghost that fades

3448
03:14:24,800 --> 03:14:28,040
Speaker 1: away in their memory? Uh? Just don't be fucking weird.

3449
03:14:28,040 --> 03:14:32,400
Speaker 1: You can find me on Twitter at w underscore Underscore

3450
03:14:32,440 --> 03:14:37,040
Speaker 1: Thomas god Damna christ be weird. All right, I guess

3451
03:14:37,040 --> 03:14:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm keeping my account Lockford. Um. Yeah. I also want

3452
03:14:42,520 --> 03:14:45,800
Speaker 1: to shout out UM some of the local mutual aid

3453
03:14:45,920 --> 03:14:47,959
Speaker 1: or one of the local mutual A groups in the

3454
03:14:48,000 --> 03:14:50,080
Speaker 1: town where I live or in the area where I lives.

3455
03:14:50,360 --> 03:14:54,640
Speaker 1: The Atlanta Justice Alliance. Their cash app is cash symbol

3456
03:14:54,720 --> 03:14:56,640
Speaker 1: a t L mutual fund and their VENMO is a

3457
03:14:56,760 --> 03:15:00,720
Speaker 1: t L mutual fund. They're helping out UM they've done

3458
03:15:01,560 --> 03:15:06,640
Speaker 1: weekly UM weekly provided food and resources for people on

3459
03:15:06,720 --> 03:15:10,280
Speaker 1: the house, people living in downtown Atlanta. UM and are

3460
03:15:10,320 --> 03:15:13,400
Speaker 1: a great group. And then also people want to give

3461
03:15:13,440 --> 03:15:16,640
Speaker 1: more money to things, shout out Atlanta Solidary Fund who

3462
03:15:16,640 --> 03:15:18,560
Speaker 1: have helped many of my friends get out of jail

3463
03:15:18,600 --> 03:15:22,480
Speaker 1: after they were arrested in protests. And also you can

3464
03:15:22,560 --> 03:15:28,039
Speaker 1: hire me, yes if you researchers, Yes you can. You can't.

3465
03:15:28,040 --> 03:15:30,600
Speaker 1: You can't hire Thomas if you want. I mean, I've

3466
03:15:30,600 --> 03:15:33,840
Speaker 1: I've I've I've known Thomas for a bit. UM. They

3467
03:15:33,920 --> 03:15:38,560
Speaker 1: do really good work. UM Yeah, they're very They're very

3468
03:15:38,600 --> 03:15:41,880
Speaker 1: They're in my experience, they're very careful researcher. They will

3469
03:15:41,920 --> 03:15:44,199
Speaker 1: not say things without thinking about them a lot first,

3470
03:15:44,280 --> 03:15:47,920
Speaker 1: which is always great in the researcher, or at least

3471
03:15:47,920 --> 03:15:52,280
Speaker 1: not publicly send them money and off putting comments. An

3472
03:15:52,320 --> 03:15:55,720
Speaker 1: even mix of money and really off putting Twitter comments.

3473
03:15:56,120 --> 03:15:57,680
Speaker 1: One more shout out to my one more shout out

3474
03:15:57,720 --> 03:15:59,760
Speaker 1: to my friends at Terrorism Bad Pod, which you should

3475
03:15:59,760 --> 03:16:04,640
Speaker 1: listen too, is on Twitter. Terrorism Bad Pod. Well, that

3476
03:16:04,879 --> 03:16:07,560
Speaker 1: doesn't for us today. If you, for some reason are

3477
03:16:07,640 --> 03:16:09,640
Speaker 1: on social media and you want to follow us, you

3478
03:16:09,640 --> 03:16:12,600
Speaker 1: can follow us that cool Zoned Media or hassolutely don't

3479
03:16:12,600 --> 03:16:15,480
Speaker 1: do or happen here pod um. You can follow Robert

3480
03:16:15,560 --> 03:16:18,800
Speaker 1: Evans at I write okay, send him weird do not

3481
03:16:18,959 --> 03:16:21,959
Speaker 1: do that, and you can send me weird messages at

3482
03:16:22,320 --> 03:16:27,600
Speaker 1: creepo time all right, se Garrison pictures of salads that

3483
03:16:27,680 --> 03:16:30,800
Speaker 1: you make and keep keep doing that for like five

3484
03:16:30,920 --> 03:16:33,800
Speaker 1: or six years to the point that it actually becomes funny.

3485
03:16:33,840 --> 03:16:35,640
Speaker 1: Because it's going to take a while. I'm just happy

3486
03:16:35,680 --> 03:16:39,080
Speaker 1: that people will stop sending meal porn. So that's honestly,

3487
03:16:39,360 --> 03:16:46,200
Speaker 1: that's a wind that one's on you though. Alright, good

3488
03:16:46,240 --> 03:17:01,840
Speaker 1: finde for funny. Hey, we'll be Monday with more episodes

3489
03:17:01,959 --> 03:17:04,480
Speaker 1: every week from now until the heat death of the Universe.

3490
03:17:05,200 --> 03:17:07,240
Speaker 1: It could happen here is a production of Cool Zone

3491
03:17:07,280 --> 03:17:10,040
Speaker 1: Media or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our

3492
03:17:10,080 --> 03:17:12,520
Speaker 1: website cool zone media dot com or check us out

3493
03:17:12,560 --> 03:17:15,040
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

3494
03:17:15,120 --> 03:17:17,800
Speaker 1: you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It

3495
03:17:17,840 --> 03:17:20,800
Speaker 1: could happen here. Updated monthly at cool zone media dot

3496
03:17:20,800 --> 03:17:25,800
Speaker 1: com slash sources. Thanks for listening. What Girls in the Forest,

3497
03:17:26,200 --> 03:17:31,040
Speaker 1: our imagination and our family bonds. The forest is closer

3498
03:17:31,040 --> 03:17:33,959
Speaker 1: than you think. Find a forest near you and discover

3499
03:17:34,040 --> 03:17:36,520
Speaker 1: the Fourth dot Org brought to you by the United

3500
03:17:36,560 --> 03:17:41,200
Speaker 1: States Fourth Service and the Ad Council. I'm Jake Calbern,

3501
03:17:41,440 --> 03:17:44,560
Speaker 1: host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a

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Speaker 1: lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges

3503
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Speaker 1: and even helped a hit man walk free, until one

3504
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Speaker 1: day when he started talking with the FBI and promised

3505
03:17:55,040 --> 03:17:58,080
Speaker 1: that he could take the mob down. I've spent the

3506
03:17:58,080 --> 03:18:00,520
Speaker 1: past year trying to figure out why he lipped and

3507
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Speaker 1: what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on

3508
03:18:03,440 --> 03:18:06,480
Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

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Speaker 1: get your podcasts. From Cavalry Audio, comes the new true

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Speaker 1: crime podcast, The Shadow Girls. I grew up near the

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3514
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Speaker 1: Listen to The Shadow Girls on the I Heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.