WEBVTT - Menopause

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<v Speaker 1>You have great taste in podcasts. This is deeply human

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<v Speaker 1>and I am your host, Tessa. Our topic of the

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<v Speaker 1>day is menopause. And before you run off thinking I'm

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<v Speaker 1>too young for this one or I'm too dude for this,

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<v Speaker 1>I can almost guarantee that you will be both surprised

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<v Speaker 1>and entertained, maybe even rendered a kinder son or daughter.

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<v Speaker 1>Menopause is actually a really rare condition in the animal world.

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<v Speaker 1>The only mammals will go through it are us and

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<v Speaker 1>some species of whales. Okay, sidebar for a quick story.

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<v Speaker 1>Many years ago, when I was twenty three, my doctor

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<v Speaker 1>found a tumor in my right ovary, and in a

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<v Speaker 1>blur of a few weeks, a surgery was scheduled. The

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<v Speaker 1>ovary was taken out, and I moved into my dad's

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<v Speaker 1>basement to recuperate. My doctor said I'd still be fertile.

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<v Speaker 1>My left ovary would essentially pull double shifts for the

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<v Speaker 1>next couple of decades, ovulating every month and releasing enough

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<v Speaker 1>hormones to keep my system balanced. But there was a

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<v Speaker 1>slight lag in my hormone production before my left ovary

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<v Speaker 1>realized it was the only one left at the party,

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<v Speaker 1>and I got a sneak peak of pre menopause. I

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<v Speaker 1>remember lying awake one night with never before experienced sort

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<v Speaker 1>of insomnia, not the familiar toss in turn routine, but

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<v Speaker 1>a razor sharp alertness, and this feverish heat. The nighttime

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<v Speaker 1>sounds gave way to the first morning traffic, then the

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<v Speaker 1>footfalls of my family walking on the floor above me,

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<v Speaker 1>and I registered all of it in this unrelenting, high

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<v Speaker 1>definition consciousness, and eventually I decided, I guess it's time

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<v Speaker 1>to get up and put some clothes on. And when

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<v Speaker 1>I rose, I saw the outline of my body on

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<v Speaker 1>the bedsheets. My sweat had traced the edges of me

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<v Speaker 1>in salt like police chalk on cotton. Most mammals remained

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<v Speaker 1>fertile all the way to the end of their lives,

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<v Speaker 1>and intuitively, that would seem like a strategic advantage the

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<v Speaker 1>whole get your genes out there board game of evolution.

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<v Speaker 1>So why is menopause only a thing for whales and women,

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<v Speaker 1>and on the human side of that equation, why do

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<v Speaker 1>we have such trouble talking to one another about the experience. Okay, first,

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<v Speaker 1>let's review basics paging. Dr Rosalind Jackson, an obstetrician, gynecologist

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<v Speaker 1>in Ohio. The average age for women going through menopause

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<v Speaker 1>is fifty one plus or minus three years, but ten

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<v Speaker 1>years prior to that is called the perimenal pausal time

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<v Speaker 1>of a woman's life, and during that time hormones start

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<v Speaker 1>to decrease. But it's when you become truly menopausal. It's

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<v Speaker 1>not to say that you've totally stopped making hormones at all,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's a very very small amount that you're producing,

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<v Speaker 1>quick and painless biochem refresher. The major sex hormones are estrogen, progesterone,

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<v Speaker 1>and testosterone, and all three hormones are found in both

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<v Speaker 1>men and women, but in different concentrations. Yes, ladies have

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<v Speaker 1>distosterone and guys have estrogen. During menopause, levels of these

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<v Speaker 1>hormones drop, and that change in body chemistry can affect

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<v Speaker 1>women in all sorts of ways. For some menopause isn't

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<v Speaker 1>really that big a deal. For others meaningfully alters what

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<v Speaker 1>it feels like to be alive in their own bodies,

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<v Speaker 1>with effects on mood and memory, they're thinking, and even

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<v Speaker 1>their sense of self. A lot of times they don't

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<v Speaker 1>associate some of the symptoms that they're having with menopause,

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<v Speaker 1>or that the fact that their hormones are decreasing, such

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<v Speaker 1>as um fatigue or insomnia. That's a really big one.

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<v Speaker 1>But commonly a lot of people do not associate the

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<v Speaker 1>inability to sleep with the fact that they're losing their

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<v Speaker 1>hormones or their hormones are decreasing. So there's fatigue, there's

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<v Speaker 1>I can't sleep, I can't lose weight. That's a big one.

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<v Speaker 1>Hot flashes, a nice sweat seems common, but it's not

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<v Speaker 1>the main thing that women come to see me for

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<v Speaker 1>regarding their hormones. Also, a decrease in libido, the integrity

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<v Speaker 1>of their skin, if they're losing hair. You have to

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<v Speaker 1>pull back all the layers to help a woman under

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<v Speaker 1>dan what's really going on with her body. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>it's it's very deep. How long does this part of

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<v Speaker 1>a woman's life last? You know, from the moment that

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<v Speaker 1>she starts to experience symptoms, like how much of her

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<v Speaker 1>life are we talking about now you are menopause or

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<v Speaker 1>you have no hormones, and so it's not like, oh,

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<v Speaker 1>for ten years, I'm gonna be bothered with this and

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<v Speaker 1>then I'm done with it. Right, So, yeah, it may

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<v Speaker 1>be true that you're not always bothered with hot flashes

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<v Speaker 1>or night swets, But what about the chemistry that's going

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<v Speaker 1>on your body? What about the fact that your metabolism

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<v Speaker 1>is different. You can't lose the weight that you could

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<v Speaker 1>when you were in your twenties or thirties. So those

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<v Speaker 1>kinds of metabolic changes are ongoing. Because menopause it's not

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<v Speaker 1>just a phase that you go through. It is like

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<v Speaker 1>this time in your life. It's like the woman you become.

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<v Speaker 1>Our cultural attitudes towards menopau eyes, along with the words

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<v Speaker 1>we use for it, have changed a lot over time.

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<v Speaker 1>Climate terek, the crisis, time of life, change of life,

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<v Speaker 1>the change and the gateway to death. My name is

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<v Speaker 1>Louise Foxcroft and I'm a historian and writer. I work

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<v Speaker 1>mainly in the history of medicine and I've written a

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<v Speaker 1>book called Hot Flush is called science the History of

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<v Speaker 1>the Modern Menopause. Louise has sifted through all sorts of

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<v Speaker 1>historical documents, diaries, old recipes, medical treatises, adds to get

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<v Speaker 1>a picture of how are thinking on menopause is evolved

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<v Speaker 1>earlier records, a early modern records. So it's seen fifty

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm talking you know British at this point, it's

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<v Speaker 1>mainly management, but it's tinged with this idea of what

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<v Speaker 1>women are and what women are is perceived through the

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<v Speaker 1>male I and one of the ideas that it's a

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<v Speaker 1>during the early modern time is that when you stop bleeding,

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<v Speaker 1>so when you hit menopause and you stop bleeding, the

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<v Speaker 1>blood has nowhere to go, so it stays in the

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<v Speaker 1>body and it corrupts the body because because we know

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<v Speaker 1>that the history of menstrual blood is that you know,

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<v Speaker 1>with his babies in the cradle, and mirrors cloud and

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<v Speaker 1>storms gather and flowers dye, milk, curdles, all that sort

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<v Speaker 1>of stuff. Monsters come out of dung heaps where your

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<v Speaker 1>rags are thrown. Okay, that warrants a restatement. People used

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<v Speaker 1>to think that women on their periods could curdle milk

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<v Speaker 1>and wilt flowers. Plenty of the elders said that menstrual

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<v Speaker 1>blood would take the edge of steel. Luise says that

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<v Speaker 1>our understanding of women's health is filtered through a medical

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<v Speaker 1>tradition that regards femaleness itself as a sort of affliction.

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<v Speaker 1>Just a heads up. The next few minutes include some

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<v Speaker 1>adult conversation that might not be appropriate for little listeners.

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<v Speaker 1>We are sort of physically unpleasant and emotionally unstable and

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<v Speaker 1>prone to vanity, and all sorts of indulgences and what

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<v Speaker 1>to our bodies is predicated upon those ideas of how

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<v Speaker 1>we are on the way that we behave, and so

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<v Speaker 1>generally you find you are treated in response to those ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you list some of the most dramatic treatments that

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<v Speaker 1>have been administered to metopausal women? Yeah, so in the

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<v Speaker 1>nineteenth century, when it really kicks off, you might have

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<v Speaker 1>acetate of lead pumped into the vagina. You might have

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<v Speaker 1>a vaginal plug that well that's I mean, rags and

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<v Speaker 1>moss and various things have been used to instead of tampons,

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<v Speaker 1>just sort of early tampons. You might have an anal

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<v Speaker 1>injection of opium, so that some sort of narcotic which

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<v Speaker 1>was just not you for six you know, so, but

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<v Speaker 1>narcotic is a sort of every day analgesic first for everything.

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<v Speaker 1>Am I correct in thinking that in our most regrettable eras?

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<v Speaker 1>There were also surgical interventions? Yes, there were. There was cliterodectomy,

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<v Speaker 1>which is excision of the clitterers. Do you think that

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<v Speaker 1>women are less afraid of menopausean they used to be.

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<v Speaker 1>If you've placed your self worth in terms of how

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<v Speaker 1>you look and how you're perceived by men, mainly by men,

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<v Speaker 1>then I think women might dread menopause as they might

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<v Speaker 1>dread old age or the effects of aging. If you're

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<v Speaker 1>not worried about that, then I think you're happier. I

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<v Speaker 1>think the more women know about menopause, the less they'll

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<v Speaker 1>dread it. Marie Stops, the feminist and eugenicist who founded

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<v Speaker 1>the first birth control clinic in Britain in the nine twenties.

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<v Speaker 1>So there was also a gender power dynamic at play

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<v Speaker 1>that the menopause or the crisis of menopause, is a

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<v Speaker 1>manufactured crisis, and it's been created by male doctors. At

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<v Speaker 1>least as early as the nineteen thirties, pharmaceutical abs were

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<v Speaker 1>making hormone replacement therapies, pills, and creams that delivered sex

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<v Speaker 1>hormones back into a woman's body in order to reduce

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<v Speaker 1>menopausal symptoms. Some of the manufacturers of these products had

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<v Speaker 1>absolutely no qualms about taking the lowest of all available

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<v Speaker 1>low roads. The good one is endo Creme or endocream,

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<v Speaker 1>which was advertised in medical journals but also in women's magazines.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's the most glamorous photograph of a blonde and

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<v Speaker 1>she's staring up at her sort of clock gable lesque husband,

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<v Speaker 1>and he's looking down at her, and she's obviously applied

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<v Speaker 1>the endocream, rubbed it well in because you can't see it.

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<v Speaker 1>But the tagline is how long is it since he

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<v Speaker 1>said I love you? The thing is, ladies don't get

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<v Speaker 1>older and don't have a menopause because men will no

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<v Speaker 1>longer love you. In the US, the number one prescription

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<v Speaker 1>in the eighties and nineties was a hormone pill called Premarin.

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<v Speaker 1>Since then, there's been a lot of controversy about hormone

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<v Speaker 1>replacement therapy. Some studies have associated it within creased rates

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<v Speaker 1>of cancer and other serious health risks. Okay, let's leave

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<v Speaker 1>the chemistry and horrifying marketing copy behind for a moment

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<v Speaker 1>and head instead for open water. It's time to talk whales.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Darren Croft. I work at the University of extra

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<v Speaker 1>and I'm a professor in animal behavior. Your specialty technically

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<v Speaker 1>is behavioral ecology. Yes, it's the study of behavior in

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<v Speaker 1>an ecological setting, so understanding how the environment has shaped

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<v Speaker 1>the behavior of animals. Does that essentially mean that you're

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<v Speaker 1>also studying the way that animals interact with each other

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<v Speaker 1>and with their larger environment as opposed to an individual. Yes, definitely.

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<v Speaker 1>As a high school student, I spent most of my

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<v Speaker 1>time wandering around in streams and fields and just studying animals.

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<v Speaker 1>And fast forward around twenty years or something to hanging

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<v Speaker 1>around in boats and looking at killer whales, trying to

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<v Speaker 1>understand how the world works. In the mammalian world, it's

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much just us and a handful of toothed whale

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<v Speaker 1>species that go through menopause, including orcas a k a.

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<v Speaker 1>Killer whales and Norwall's arguably the A Listers of the

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<v Speaker 1>whale world. Darren and his student Emma Foster studied more

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<v Speaker 1>than forty years of all the birth and death records

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<v Speaker 1>for two groups of killer whales off the western coast

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<v Speaker 1>of North America. Emma had a suspicion that there might

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<v Speaker 1>be some patterns in these birth and death records that

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<v Speaker 1>could explain whale menopause, so she and Darren dove into

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<v Speaker 1>the data. I swear on my honor that was an

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<v Speaker 1>accidental dive plan and it will not happen again. One

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<v Speaker 1>important point about these animals, and it's absolutely key to

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<v Speaker 1>understanding why menopause is evolved in this system, is that

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<v Speaker 1>in most animals, one of the sex will disperse from

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<v Speaker 1>from the family group, and in this species, sons and

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<v Speaker 1>daughters stay with their mother, and that's absolutely crucial to

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<v Speaker 1>understanding why menopause is evolved. Okay, so whales are special

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<v Speaker 1>and weird because the kids stay with ma even after

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<v Speaker 1>they're grown up. Not a crystal clear connection with menopause yet,

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<v Speaker 1>but I'm tracking. But that means that you've got adult

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<v Speaker 1>sons hanging around with their mothers. So we were able

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<v Speaker 1>to look at what the effects of a mother death

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<v Speaker 1>was on her son's survival, and we found a huge effect.

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<v Speaker 1>The data showed that if an adult males mom died,

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<v Speaker 1>his chance of dying shut up to his hazard of

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<v Speaker 1>mortality increases by more than eight times. So they really

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<v Speaker 1>are keeping their sons alive. So how exactly are older

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<v Speaker 1>moms keeping their adult sons alive. One of the ways

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<v Speaker 1>they're doing is by feeding them. Amazingly, say you've got

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<v Speaker 1>the sixty plus year old females catching salmon and actually

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<v Speaker 1>sharing that fish, you know, ripping that fish in half

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<v Speaker 1>and directly feeding these fully grown, huge male offspring. These

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<v Speaker 1>adults male killer whales sound like the least datable people. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>they only go one very short dates because then they

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<v Speaker 1>returned back to their mothers. They literally are swimming by

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<v Speaker 1>their mum's side most of their life. While dude whales

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<v Speaker 1>typically die in their thirties, lady whales stop having calves

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<v Speaker 1>in their thirties or forties, but live for decades longer.

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<v Speaker 1>They spend this post reproductive stage of their lives helping

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<v Speaker 1>their grown children and their grandchildren. And because old females

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<v Speaker 1>have been around the water block so many times, they're

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<v Speaker 1>particularly formidable when it comes to the hunt. One of

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<v Speaker 1>the things that we know is that they are really

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<v Speaker 1>important in finding the food in the first place. I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>if you think about these whiles swimming around in this ocean,

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<v Speaker 1>and these salmon are locally abundant, coming to the rivers

0:14:07.480 --> 0:14:11.200
<v Speaker 1>in their masses to spawn, but not all rivers have

0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.280
<v Speaker 1>fish at the same time, So it's a case of

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.000
<v Speaker 1>knowing when and where to look for food. And it's

0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.880
<v Speaker 1>these old post reproductive females that are guiding their family

0:14:19.920 --> 0:14:22.920
<v Speaker 1>group around to find the fish. So it's that knowledge

0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:25.400
<v Speaker 1>that they've accumulated through their life is one of the

0:14:25.400 --> 0:14:27.600
<v Speaker 1>ways that they're helping to keep their family group alive.

0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:32.840
<v Speaker 1>So here's the crucial bit. For whales, a grandmother's energy

0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.040
<v Speaker 1>is better spent on existing offspring than on mating to

0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.240
<v Speaker 1>make more offspring. Her jeans have the best chance of

0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:42.080
<v Speaker 1>carrying on into the future if she devotes her attention,

0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.320
<v Speaker 1>her knowledge, and her resources to her adult descendants and

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:49.840
<v Speaker 1>their young rude rather than getting pregnant again herself. A

0:14:49.880 --> 0:14:53.640
<v Speaker 1>lot of anthropologists and evolutionary scientists are trying to find

0:14:53.680 --> 0:14:56.800
<v Speaker 1>out if human behavior can be explained in the same way,

0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:00.680
<v Speaker 1>if menopause is an evolved adaptation that direct our time

0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 1>and attention to our adult kids and their families. In

0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:08.000
<v Speaker 1>a fit of literalism, scientists call this the grandmother hypothesis.

0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:21.480
<v Speaker 1>If grand offspring really benefit in killer whale populations and

0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.360
<v Speaker 1>potentially in human populations um from having their grandmother around

0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:28.160
<v Speaker 1>even when she's postfertile, then why don't we see it

0:15:28.200 --> 0:15:31.000
<v Speaker 1>in a lot of other species that live together in

0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.080
<v Speaker 1>social groups. Yeah, So, I mean, it's a really good

0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:37.479
<v Speaker 1>question because we know that there are these grandmother effects

0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:42.040
<v Speaker 1>in other species. So elephant societies for example, the grandmothers

0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:45.240
<v Speaker 1>are really important in keeping their grand offspring alive and

0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.400
<v Speaker 1>their offspring alive and similar mechanisms. You know, they know

0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:50.720
<v Speaker 1>how to respond to predators or they know where to

0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:56.080
<v Speaker 1>find water. With elephants, an old female can help out

0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:58.880
<v Speaker 1>as grandmother while still having new babies of our own.

0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.080
<v Speaker 1>But for way as their social structure and ecological conditions

0:16:03.360 --> 0:16:07.440
<v Speaker 1>mean that younger and older generations would be competing for resources.

0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.000
<v Speaker 1>The key thing is with these resident killer whales is

0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:13.240
<v Speaker 1>that when the females are reaching and that they've got

0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.280
<v Speaker 1>their adult offspring around, there is a real opportunity there

0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:18.960
<v Speaker 1>for them to help. Whereas you know, it'd be hard

0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:21.880
<v Speaker 1>to imagine a way that an elephant or another long

0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.600
<v Speaker 1>lived social mammal might be able to do that in

0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.000
<v Speaker 1>the same way because of diet, because the herbivores, because

0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.840
<v Speaker 1>I can't catch a tree, right, the trees just actually

0:16:30.920 --> 0:16:34.720
<v Speaker 1>the trees, they're they're grazing, they're browsing. And you know,

0:16:34.760 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 1>if we look at other long lived mammals such as elephants,

0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:41.160
<v Speaker 1>for example, they're not sharing food in the in the

0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.920
<v Speaker 1>same way that the killer whales are, and indeed, ancestral

0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:49.480
<v Speaker 1>humans were sharing and helping to prepare food. So it

0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.160
<v Speaker 1>really is the ecology, the environment that diet their life.

0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:56.640
<v Speaker 1>That's It's all a combination of factors and it is

0:16:56.800 --> 0:17:00.680
<v Speaker 1>very unusual that you get these effects coming together, which

0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:07.600
<v Speaker 1>is why menopause is so rare in the animal kingdom. Okay,

0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:11.399
<v Speaker 1>a quick aside before moving on. Fertility functions in different

0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:15.440
<v Speaker 1>ways in humans and whales. For women, menopause is signaled

0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.919
<v Speaker 1>by the cessation of a woman's menstrual cycle, but whales

0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.840
<v Speaker 1>don't have periods, and so researchers can only tell if

0:17:21.840 --> 0:17:25.200
<v Speaker 1>they're post fertile by measuring the hormonal levels in their pooh,

0:17:25.520 --> 0:17:27.800
<v Speaker 1>which they locate floating on the surface of the water

0:17:27.880 --> 0:17:30.240
<v Speaker 1>with sniffer dogs, the most famous one of which is

0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:34.679
<v Speaker 1>a Labrador Retriever named Tucker. Listener the World is Wide,

0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:39.440
<v Speaker 1>Louis Foxcroft, our menopause historian, says, it's important that all

0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.439
<v Speaker 1>of us boys and girls know more about this stuff,

0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.600
<v Speaker 1>more about our own bodies. Is not about Tucker the labrador.

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:49.280
<v Speaker 1>In schools where they have sex education, they need to

0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:53.800
<v Speaker 1>talk about menopause thenteen year old, they need to know

0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.479
<v Speaker 1>about the whole of their reproductive lives. Wow. That has

0:17:57.520 --> 0:17:59.320
<v Speaker 1>not occurred to me until this moment, but I wish

0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.439
<v Speaker 1>that in my it like junior high in high school,

0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.640
<v Speaker 1>sex said, which was so profoundly uncomfortable for so many reasons. Right,

0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.000
<v Speaker 1>it's a weird class. I wish they had talked about

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.560
<v Speaker 1>the menopause, not necessarily because I would have been in

0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:13.359
<v Speaker 1>a position that it's going to better equip me for

0:18:13.440 --> 0:18:18.040
<v Speaker 1>my own menopause, but because I would have loved, like

0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:23.440
<v Speaker 1>a very swift jab to the ribs to like think

0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.320
<v Speaker 1>about my mother in a more compassionate way. And in

0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:29.800
<v Speaker 1>researching this podcast, I texted her like, I am so

0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:33.000
<v Speaker 1>sorry that I was totally tone deaf to like a

0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:35.840
<v Speaker 1>really big part of your life when you have not

0:18:36.000 --> 0:18:38.520
<v Speaker 1>been even when we fought, like you've not been tone

0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:41.560
<v Speaker 1>deaf and completely oblivious, right, like these big things that

0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.959
<v Speaker 1>are happening to mind. Well, I lost my mother when

0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.119
<v Speaker 1>I was thirty five, so I never got to have

0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:48.240
<v Speaker 1>that conversation with her, and I would really like to

0:18:48.280 --> 0:18:50.720
<v Speaker 1>have that conversation. And I remember her having the menopause,

0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.600
<v Speaker 1>and I remember her struggling with it, and I didn't

0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.159
<v Speaker 1>really you know, I had no conception of what was

0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:58.520
<v Speaker 1>going on. And we didn't talk about it because I

0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:03.280
<v Speaker 1>think that generation of women she was born in didn't

0:19:03.320 --> 0:19:10.760
<v Speaker 1>discuss it. With that note on the importance of intergenerational conversation,

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.280
<v Speaker 1>I'll usher in our final guest. My name is Bob Wander,

0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:20.119
<v Speaker 1>and how did we meet? I am the father of

0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:26.200
<v Speaker 1>the interviewer. Actually we met in the hospital during your

0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:32.600
<v Speaker 1>birthing process. I remember the day very clearly. Reading scientists

0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:36.439
<v Speaker 1>arguments for and against the grandmother hypothesis made me think

0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.119
<v Speaker 1>about my own grandma. When I was very small. She

0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:41.240
<v Speaker 1>took care of me a few nights a week. When

0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:43.760
<v Speaker 1>I got big, we ate lunch together at a dumb

0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.800
<v Speaker 1>sports bar. Why drank coffee, and she ordered a Manhattan

0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:49.960
<v Speaker 1>and always picked up the tab, which incidentally is pretty

0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.040
<v Speaker 1>much exactly what the grandmother hypothesis would predict, both the

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.280
<v Speaker 1>childcare and the resource sharing. I still sometimes wear Jeanette's

0:19:57.280 --> 0:20:00.040
<v Speaker 1>wedding ring on a chain around my neck. She and

0:20:00.080 --> 0:20:03.959
<v Speaker 1>I were close, but she and my dad were really close.

0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:08.960
<v Speaker 1>Do you feel like you understood her? I do. Did

0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:13.880
<v Speaker 1>you feel understood by her? Probably better by her than

0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:16.719
<v Speaker 1>just about anybody else on earth, To be honest, do

0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:20.920
<v Speaker 1>you know what her experience of menopause was like, that's

0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:23.680
<v Speaker 1>a good question. I really don't know. I was too

0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.600
<v Speaker 1>young to know much biology when she was menopausal, and

0:20:27.760 --> 0:20:29.399
<v Speaker 1>I was also kind of on my way out of

0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:31.639
<v Speaker 1>the household at a relatively young age to be on

0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.000
<v Speaker 1>my own. Okay, I'm going to do a quick fact

0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.040
<v Speaker 1>check with your dad. Are you saying that when you

0:20:37.080 --> 0:20:40.040
<v Speaker 1>went up to college you didn't know the biology of menopause.

0:20:41.119 --> 0:20:43.280
<v Speaker 1>I knew a little bit about it, but the only

0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:45.720
<v Speaker 1>female in the household where I grew up was my mother.

0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.800
<v Speaker 1>I had four brothers, so I knew very little about

0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.760
<v Speaker 1>what was going down. To be perfectly honest, my dad

0:20:53.800 --> 0:20:56.680
<v Speaker 1>and his mom shared secrets. They confided in one another

0:20:56.720 --> 0:20:59.879
<v Speaker 1>about their marriages, the sweet stuff and the lousy and

0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.600
<v Speaker 1>only stuff too. So it struck me as a little

0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:05.359
<v Speaker 1>strange that what might have been a really important experience

0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:08.199
<v Speaker 1>for her was never really mentioned between them. Even in

0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:11.840
<v Speaker 1>passing years later, when my ovary had to come out,

0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.240
<v Speaker 1>my dad got really involved with the science of the

0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:18.159
<v Speaker 1>female reproductive system, Like, in order to understand my experience,

0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:21.560
<v Speaker 1>he wanted to understand the biology of me. I remember

0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:26.440
<v Speaker 1>your diagnosis and treatment very well. These subjects for public

0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:28.879
<v Speaker 1>discussion were really kind of taboo when I was a

0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:32.840
<v Speaker 1>very young person, at least in Central North America, and

0:21:32.880 --> 0:21:35.200
<v Speaker 1>they're not now. So I think the level of knowledge

0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.600
<v Speaker 1>that everybody has about the number of as I said,

0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.960
<v Speaker 1>gender identity issues and female biological issues, the level of

0:21:42.000 --> 0:21:45.240
<v Speaker 1>general education is much higher now than it was when

0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:50.520
<v Speaker 1>I was a very young person. That is better, I do. Yeah,

0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.560
<v Speaker 1>I think sunlight is the best disinfectant. I didn't invent

0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.080
<v Speaker 1>that phrase, but if I had invented it, I would

0:21:56.119 --> 0:22:01.480
<v Speaker 1>be proud of it. Net was a pretty stellar mother,

0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:05.560
<v Speaker 1>loving but also shrewd and quick. If she were a

0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:07.800
<v Speaker 1>killer whale, she would have been the ferocious hunter to

0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:11.399
<v Speaker 1>stuff all her sons with fish. And if menopause is

0:22:11.440 --> 0:22:13.760
<v Speaker 1>partly to thank for the way that human children are raised,

0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:16.159
<v Speaker 1>then it's a huge factor that shaped a lot of

0:22:16.160 --> 0:22:19.840
<v Speaker 1>our families in a mostly unrecognized way. On my next

0:22:19.880 --> 0:22:22.399
<v Speaker 1>visit with my dad, I've already made plans to have

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:25.840
<v Speaker 1>a salmon dinner in Jeanette's honor salmon, and maybe a

0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Manhattan too. On the next Deeply Human, why do you

0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.320
<v Speaker 1>listen to sad music? Like? If we're generally trying to

0:22:35.400 --> 0:22:38.320
<v Speaker 1>lead happy lives, how come we subject ourselves. Two songs

0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:41.520
<v Speaker 1>that choke us up. The song can feel like you're

0:22:41.520 --> 0:22:44.520
<v Speaker 1>communing with an artist who understands and has been through

0:22:44.640 --> 0:22:48.600
<v Speaker 1>what you've gone through, and so it's not necessarily hopeless

0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:50.960
<v Speaker 1>because here's somebody who clearly went through some of the

0:22:50.960 --> 0:22:52.760
<v Speaker 1>same things that I did and came out on the

0:22:52.800 --> 0:22:56.960
<v Speaker 1>other side and wrote a song about it. Deeply Human

0:22:57.080 --> 0:22:59.520
<v Speaker 1>is a co production of the BBC World Service in

0:22:59.600 --> 0:23:02.800
<v Speaker 1>America in Public Media with I Heart Media, and it's

0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.640
<v Speaker 1>hosted by me Deessa. Til next time, Stay Curious,