WEBVTT - Some Unemployment Claims May Be Held up Due to Decades Old Coding Language That No One Knows

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, April six. I'm Oscar Ramires from the Daily

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<v Speaker 1>Dive podcast in Los Angeles, and this is your daily

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<v Speaker 1>coronavirus update. A seventeen million Americans file claims for unemployment.

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<v Speaker 1>Many are having problems completing the process online. For some states,

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<v Speaker 1>the problem is rooted in crashing websites due to a

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<v Speaker 1>decades old coding language known as cobal that almost no

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<v Speaker 1>one knows. McKenna Kelly, policy reporter at The Verge, joins

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<v Speaker 1>us for why some unemployment checks are being held up.

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for joining us, McKenna, Hey, glad to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>We're gonna continue talking about coronavirus and its effects on

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<v Speaker 1>the country. One of the interesting things that's happening is

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<v Speaker 1>that when the country gets stressed like this, overwhelmed in

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<v Speaker 1>a sense, you can say, you see a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>the inadequacies with the healthcare side of things, hospitals, the

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<v Speaker 1>lack of ppe personal protective equipment and ventilators, those cracks

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<v Speaker 1>start to be exposed on the economic front and the

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<v Speaker 1>way states are operating. An interesting thing is happening right now.

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<v Speaker 1>We have about seventeen million Americans that have filed for unemployment,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's a handful of states that have such outdated

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<v Speaker 1>systems there where people are just spending hours on the

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<v Speaker 1>websites trying to get through. In many cases they can't

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<v Speaker 1>get through. And a lot of it has to do

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<v Speaker 1>with this decades old coding language known as Cobal that

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<v Speaker 1>some of these states are using, and it's just causing

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<v Speaker 1>a mess for them and for the people that are

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<v Speaker 1>trying to file for unemployment. McKenna tell us a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit about this coding language, Cobal and how the states

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<v Speaker 1>are using it and what's happening. So Cobal is nearly

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<v Speaker 1>sixty years old. It was developed in the nineteen fifties

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<v Speaker 1>because a lot of computer manufacturers were creating their own

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<v Speaker 1>programming languages. So if government or the private sector wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to use a variety of different manufacturers in different computing systems,

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<v Speaker 1>it was difficult to manage basic tasks with so many

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<v Speaker 1>different languages. So in the fifties, the Defense Department worked

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<v Speaker 1>to create Cobal, and since it was one of the

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<v Speaker 1>first standardized languages, it grew exponential over the next couple

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<v Speaker 1>of years, becoming the most widely used language by the

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<v Speaker 1>nineties seventies. So we've seen a lack of investment in

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<v Speaker 1>updating these systems that are forty fifty years old. The

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<v Speaker 1>first time I heard about this was last month or whatnot,

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<v Speaker 1>when New Jersey Governor Phil Murphy had made a plea

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<v Speaker 1>for more programmers that knew how to use Kobal. And

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<v Speaker 1>it was just like you know that you hear this

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<v Speaker 1>story of like, oh, well, it hasn't been using for years,

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<v Speaker 1>nobody knows how to use it anymore, basically, But I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't really understand the effect that this would have overall

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<v Speaker 1>until this recent influx of people trying to file for

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<v Speaker 1>unemployment and we're hearing that there might be a second

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<v Speaker 1>round of layoffs that are here now are coming very soon.

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<v Speaker 1>So what does this look like in practicality when people

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<v Speaker 1>are logging onto the website? Is it just crashing because

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<v Speaker 1>these systems are so outdated? What's going on? So I

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<v Speaker 1>tried to talk to as many people as possible about

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<v Speaker 1>the errors that they were experiencing. The one that I

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<v Speaker 1>focused on the most, and one of the stories that

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<v Speaker 1>I wrote this week with a man in Colorado who

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<v Speaker 1>it took him three days of trying to submit his information.

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<v Speaker 1>He would go into the system, file out everything that

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<v Speaker 1>the government asked for him, it took him about thirty

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<v Speaker 1>minutes the first time, and clicks submit, and it would

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<v Speaker 1>say that the system was overloaded, and every twenty four

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<v Speaker 1>hours in the Colorado system, it asked you to re

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<v Speaker 1>enter that information over again. So he could just be

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<v Speaker 1>sitting there clicking submit, submit, submit, for twenty four hours

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<v Speaker 1>and then have to fill out all over again. And

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<v Speaker 1>he did that for three days. I think anybody can

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<v Speaker 1>sympathize with that. Such a tedious and frustrating thing when

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<v Speaker 1>you get to the very end and then it doesn't work.

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<v Speaker 1>So the big question here, who's using this system? You

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<v Speaker 1>guys said maybe there was about twelve states that are

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<v Speaker 1>using this what states might be experiencing some of these problems?

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<v Speaker 1>So last week I reached out to every state labor

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<v Speaker 1>department in the country, and from what I heard back,

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<v Speaker 1>at least thirteen used the language. Now, COBAL is being

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<v Speaker 1>used in a variety of different capacities. So in one state,

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<v Speaker 1>I can't remember exactly what it is, but COBAL is

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<v Speaker 1>paired with Java as they're trying to upgrade the system,

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<v Speaker 1>so it's functioning in different forms and a variety of

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<v Speaker 1>different states. But it is a widespread issue that is

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<v Speaker 1>impacting people all across the country. Also from your reporting,

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<v Speaker 1>you said that, according to Reuters, of banking systems are

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<v Speaker 1>built on COBL, A t M swipes still rely on

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<v Speaker 1>this language. But they all have kind of dedicated people

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<v Speaker 1>and they've been working on these things for a long

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<v Speaker 1>time now. And the Government Accountability Office has issued a

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<v Speaker 1>bunch of different reports basically saying guys, we need to

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<v Speaker 1>get this in order, we need to update these things.

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<v Speaker 1>And these older systems are costing taxpayers around three dred

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<v Speaker 1>and thirty seven million dollars a year, and most of

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<v Speaker 1>it is just towards maintenance. That's one of the biggest issues.

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<v Speaker 1>And as I was reporting the story, one of the

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<v Speaker 1>largest problems is that a large majority of the people

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<v Speaker 1>who know COBL are growing and meeting retirement age. There

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<v Speaker 1>just aren't enough people who are fluent in the language

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<v Speaker 1>that can come back to the workforce and help maintain

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<v Speaker 1>these systems and times of crisis. During Y two K,

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<v Speaker 1>we experienced a similar issue when people were terrified that

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<v Speaker 1>computer systems would rupture when they switched to the new millennium.

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<v Speaker 1>So we had hordes of COBAL programmers come back. And

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<v Speaker 1>so now we're twenty years down the line since and

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<v Speaker 1>more of those people have grown even older. And when

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<v Speaker 1>COBAL programmers were on the job in the fifties, sixties,

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<v Speaker 1>and seventies, code and computer engineering wasn't in academia. People

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<v Speaker 1>didn't learn how to formalize it and communicate what they

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<v Speaker 1>were doing, and a lot of them there wasn't open

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<v Speaker 1>source networks for people to even grab basic code to

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<v Speaker 1>incorporate in the system, so it made it harder for

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<v Speaker 1>newcomers who looked to come back and help out to

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<v Speaker 1>even look at the code and really figure out what's

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<v Speaker 1>going on there. Wow. I mean, it just seems like

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<v Speaker 1>such a tough thing again to handle on. I guess

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<v Speaker 1>IBM is offering free COBAL training for some programmers across

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<v Speaker 1>the country, but even then, how many people can you

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<v Speaker 1>get up to speed when the need is so immediate

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<v Speaker 1>with these unemployment benefits that people need to sign up for.

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<v Speaker 1>It's pretty crazy. So just another thing, like I said,

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<v Speaker 1>it just this whole stress test on the country just

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<v Speaker 1>exposes these cracks, and it's just another thing that we

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<v Speaker 1>now we know we need to update. We need to

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<v Speaker 1>either get out of these systems, move over to other systems,

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<v Speaker 1>or something. I mean, it just needs to be modernized overall.

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<v Speaker 1>People have been sounding the alarm for modernization for years,

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<v Speaker 1>but it takes a crisis. Unfortunately, we've seen this time

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<v Speaker 1>and time again in other parts of the government. It

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<v Speaker 1>takes a crisis for lawmakers to react and fix things.

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<v Speaker 1>So maybe in the next couple of months we'll see

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<v Speaker 1>some additional money handed to states to update these systems.

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<v Speaker 1>Mchannic Kelly, policy reporter at The Verge, Thank you very

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<v Speaker 1>much for joining us. Hey, thanks glad to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Oscar Romeiraz and this has been your daily coronavirus update.

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<v Speaker 1>Don't forget that. For today's big news stories, you can

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<v Speaker 1>check me out on the Daily Dive podcast every Monday

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<v Speaker 1>through Friday. So follow us on I Heard Radio or

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<v Speaker 1>wherever you get your podcasts.