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Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: On the evening of November twelfth and into the early

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Speaker 2: morning hours of November thirteenth. Kaylee and Madison arrived home

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Speaker 2: at approximately one forty five am after visiting a local

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Speaker 2: bar and a street food vendor. Ethan and Xana were

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Speaker 2: also at in the community at Sigma Chai, and they

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Speaker 2: arrived home at approximately one forty five am. Two surviving

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Speaker 2: roommates who were also at in the community arrived home

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Speaker 2: at approximately one am. Later on the morning of November thirteenth,

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Speaker 2: at eleven fifty eight am, a nine on one.

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Speaker 3: Call was placed.

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Speaker 2: The call reported an unconscious person. The call originated from

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Speaker 2: inside the residence and a surviving roommate's cell phone was used.

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Speaker 2: During that call, the dispatcher spoke to multiple people who

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Speaker 2: were on scene. Moscow Police officers responded and found two victims,

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Speaker 2: two on the second floor and two on the third

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Speaker 2: floor of eleven twenty two King Road. The results of

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Speaker 2: autopsies indicated that the four were stabbed multiple times and

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Speaker 2: were likely asleep during the attack. Some had defensive wounds

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Speaker 2: and there was no sign of sexual assault.

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Speaker 4: You are hearing Police Captain Roger Lanier there in Moscow,

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Speaker 4: detailing what happened the morning the murders were reported to

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Speaker 4: nine to one one in the last hours Bob Shell

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Speaker 4: in the courtroom, Ryan Coberger announced this his formal alibi,

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Speaker 4: that he was quote out watching the moon and the

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Speaker 4: stars around three to four a m.

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Speaker 1: The night of the murders. Hold that thought. Also in

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Speaker 1: the middle of all of this, let me throw this

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Speaker 1: in the pot to stew. We are now learning.

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Speaker 4: Contrary to many earlier reports that there was no stalking,

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Speaker 4: Brian Coburger reportedly stalked no one.

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Speaker 1: This is a torpedo to the state's case.

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Speaker 5: Listen, Brian Coberger tried to message one of the female

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Speaker 5: victims of the Idaho murders. That's reportedly what an unidentified

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Speaker 5: police source told People Magazine. The source said, weeks before

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Speaker 5: the murder's direct messages were repeatedly sent to one of

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Speaker 5: the women over Instagram. The source said there was no reply.

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Speaker 5: Reports early on from an anonymous source revealed that there

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Speaker 5: were pictures of at least one of the victims in

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Speaker 5: Brian Cooberger's photo role. Steve and Christy Gonsovs also shared

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Speaker 5: screenshots with CBS News purportedly showing an Instagram account belonging

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Speaker 5: to Brian Coburger, and it had interacted with and followed

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Speaker 5: Matty Mogen and Kaylee. Gonzalve was on the social media platform.

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Speaker 5: Christy Gonsalves said that Coburger had liked pictures on Matti

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Speaker 5: Mogan's account. The account that Gonsalves referred to was not

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Speaker 5: authenticated as belonging to Coberger.

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Speaker 1: Then who wasn't.

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Speaker 4: Well, that's what we've been told all along, right, all wrong.

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Speaker 1: There was a serious blow up in court.

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Speaker 6: Listen, you acknowledged false the mister Choberger alleged we stalked

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Speaker 6: one of the victims. That's false.

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Speaker 3: You know that to be fault? Which one did? Miss

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Speaker 3: Coberger allegend we stalked one of the victims. I was

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Speaker 3: trying not to say.

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Speaker 7: That because you knew you knew.

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Speaker 3: That was false. I did it.

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Speaker 8: Yes, And so you have now for anybody who had

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Speaker 8: never heard that before, that question is now planted in

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Speaker 8: to them unqualified representation that mister Coberger stalked one of

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Speaker 8: the witnesses.

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Speaker 3: And that's false, that's false.

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Speaker 8: Yes, yes, okay, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 4: Okay, what in the world you are hearing? The prosecutor

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Speaker 4: that is Bill Thompson the lot of County prosecutor dreaming

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Speaker 4: technical legal term doctor Edelman for the defense, and the

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Speaker 4: prosecutor is grilling him on claims that he made two

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Speaker 4: potential jurors about stalking in this case. Joining me an

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Speaker 4: all star panel to make sense of everything that's going

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Speaker 4: on in that courtroom, and.

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Speaker 1: There is a lot.

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Speaker 4: But first to Kaitlin Hornick, joining us editor at the

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Speaker 4: US Sun, Caitlin, thank you for being with us. I'm

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Speaker 4: going to get to the moon of the stars, all right.

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Speaker 4: I've already researched the whole thing on the Farmer's Almanac, Caitlin,

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Speaker 4: What is this about no stalking?

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Speaker 1: Are we losing motive for murder?

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Speaker 9: You know, Nancy, I think there are a lot of

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Speaker 9: things still play that this jury ultimately will have to uncover.

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Speaker 9: The thing that's really sticking out to me is the

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Speaker 9: you know, the back and forth with the stocking. I

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Speaker 9: don't know how you can go from saying that there

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Speaker 9: were these messages exchanged on Instagram and that the photos

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Speaker 9: on the camera roll to saying, oh no, wait, that's

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Speaker 9: that's not true. That's actually not true. You know, I

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Speaker 9: think there are a lot of things that the prosecutors

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Speaker 9: need to be honest about and that they need to

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Speaker 9: lay out in plane terms facts about what actually went on. Personally,

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Speaker 9: I think the fact that his that Coburger's prosecutors doubled

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Speaker 9: down on his alibi is equal parts shocking and you know,

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Speaker 9: just kind of crazy when you think about it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm thinking about that well, watching the Moon and

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Speaker 4: Stars aspect of this. Let me go to high profile

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Speaker 4: lawyer joining us from this jurisdiction, Tara Malik, partner at

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Speaker 4: Smith and Malik in former state and federal prosecutor. Tara,

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Speaker 4: thank you for being with us. Do you remember, of

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Speaker 4: course you do the famous If it doesn't fit, you

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Speaker 4: must acquit. Well, I feel like I'm getting bit in

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Speaker 4: the neck with this thing. But all along we have

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Speaker 4: heard police stating we don't have evidence of stalking.

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Speaker 1: We've heard that from the get go.

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Speaker 4: But yet we've seen screens and heard evidence that there

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Speaker 4: was stalking by Coburger on at least one of the victims,

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Speaker 4: if not more. So are we going to have a

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Speaker 4: Johnny cochrane asque defense, No stalking, no murder, no motive.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, I mean, its certainly doesn't help the States case.

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Speaker 10: Motive is not something that they have to prove. It's

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Speaker 10: not like you know, an element of the charges. But

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Speaker 10: what it does is explain the why behind the crimes,

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Speaker 10: and jurors always want to know why why did this happen?

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Speaker 1: Guys.

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Speaker 4: As a matter of fact, it goes way back. Take

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Speaker 4: a listen to Police Captain Roger Lanier.

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Speaker 2: We have heard mentioned that Kaylee stated she may have

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Speaker 2: had a stalker. Detectives have been looking into that and

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Speaker 2: to this point have been unable to corroborate the statement.

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Speaker 2: Although we continue to seek information and tips regarding that report,

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Speaker 2: no suspects have been named or arrested, and we continue

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Speaker 2: looking for what we will leave to be a fixed

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Speaker 2: blade knife used in the murders.

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Speaker 4: That knife never found and neither has there been found

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Speaker 4: evidence of stalking. Again, I can hear it ringing in

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Speaker 4: my ears right now.

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Speaker 1: No motive, no murder.

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Speaker 4: Joining me as I said an All Star panel to

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Speaker 4: Chris mcdunna, joining US director Cold Case Foundation, former homicide

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Speaker 4: detective on the interview.

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Speaker 1: Room on YouTube.

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Speaker 4: Chris mcdonna, of course, the state, as you know from

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Speaker 4: handling so many homicides, never has to prove motive. But

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Speaker 4: in many people's minds, there should be a motive presented

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Speaker 4: to a jury, because how could a jury believe that

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Speaker 4: someone that doesn't know these four victims would just randomly

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Speaker 4: choose them and murder them.

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Speaker 1: To quote, see what it feels like.

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Speaker 4: That's going to be a tough sell, especially now that

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Speaker 4: we find out the state has also learned the defenses,

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Speaker 4: bringing on cell phone and radio frequency data to refute

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Speaker 4: claims Coburger was in the area of the murders at

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Speaker 4: the time of the murders. The state is getting torpedoed

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Speaker 4: left and right. Now we've lost motive.

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Speaker 11: The stalking, Yeah, Natcy, I mean, one of the most

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Speaker 11: interesting things, and it may just be semantics, is when

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Speaker 11: Thompson was arguing with the expert witness of the defense

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Speaker 11: put on, he mentioned that there's no evidence of witnesses.

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Speaker 3: Being stalked. I thought that was a very interesting choice

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Speaker 3: of words versus victims. This may be a cover play

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Speaker 3: as well by the state, because you know, you've got

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Speaker 3: to now think about we've got some amateur, you know,

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Speaker 3: astronomer I e. Koberger, you know, exercising in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the night. Yet his cell phone shows up twelve

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Speaker 3: separate times around the crime scene.

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Speaker 4: This as we were learning and correct me if I'm wrong.

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Speaker 4: Caitlin Hornick joining us from the US SUN. But the polster,

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Speaker 4: the surveyor that was hired by the defense to call

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Speaker 4: at least four hundred prospective gurrrs, asked the gurrrs about stalking,

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Speaker 4: and we heard Prosecutor Bill.

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Speaker 1: Thompson say, you knew that wasn't true, and you.

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Speaker 4: Asked people, you put it out there in the ether

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Speaker 4: that there was stalking. And the guy responds, I don't

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Speaker 4: care if it's true or false.

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Speaker 1: He actually said that in a court of law. Did

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Speaker 1: that happen?

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Speaker 9: Caitlin, You know, I think one of the biggest things

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Speaker 9: at play here that the whole the prosecution that Coburger,

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Speaker 9: that everyone involved is struggling with is misinformation. You know,

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Speaker 9: we've seen that from the beginning with the stalker not

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Speaker 9: stalker bit. You know, there's so many inconsistencies that I

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Speaker 9: think are still being investigated.

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Speaker 4: Okay, question, I'm asking you about the surveyor, the surveyor

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Speaker 4: that sent out called to at least four.

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Speaker 1: Hundred potential Coburger yourrs.

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Speaker 4: And in that phone survey, the surveyor asked about Coburger

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Speaker 4: stalking the victims and you know what played again? Was

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Speaker 4: it's cut twenty Bill Thompson, the Lotta County prosecutor grilling

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Speaker 4: doctor Edelman who took part in this survey.

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Speaker 1: Listen, you're done.

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Speaker 3: With fault that mister Coberger alleged we stalked one of

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Speaker 3: the victims.

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Speaker 8: That's false, you know that to popl which one did

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Speaker 8: miss Coberger allegend we stalked one.

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Speaker 3: Of the victims. I was trying not to say that.

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Speaker 8: Because you knew you knew that was false. I did, yes,

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Speaker 8: And so you have now for anybody who had never

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Speaker 8: heard that before, that question is now planted in to

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Speaker 8: them unqualified representation that mister Coberger stalked one of the witnesses.

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Speaker 3: And that's false, that's false.

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Speaker 8: Yes, yes, okay, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 4: Okay, all right, So Caitlyn Hornick, explain who is doctor Edelman?

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Speaker 10: You know he's a polster.

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Speaker 9: We why he was making these phone calls and kind

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Speaker 9: of you know, planting this information remains to be seen.

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Speaker 9: You know why he went so far and you know

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Speaker 9: to say that there was stalking and you know, but

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Speaker 9: these false claims, it doesn't make sense.

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Speaker 1: Details matter.

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Speaker 4: Now we are about the weather conditions, the night for

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Speaker 4: University Idaho students murdered. As prime suspect Brian Coberger claims

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Speaker 4: he was out alone watching the moon at stars at

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Speaker 4: four am. To Joe Scott Morgan, how difficult is it

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Speaker 4: to pull that up? Because I found it pretty quickly

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Speaker 4: the night sky at eleven fifty pm November twelve, throughout

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Speaker 4: the morning was basically very low visibility. And Joe Scott,

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Speaker 4: before you answer that, I'm looking throughout the night three

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Speaker 4: seventeen am overcast, three fifty three am. That's the time

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Speaker 4: of the murders, ice and fog. Four fifty three overcast,

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Speaker 4: five fifty three overcast, six fifty three overcast.

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Speaker 1: So what's he looking at?

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Speaker 7: Nothing? I mean, how can he see? You know, unless

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Speaker 7: he has some kind of special ability, how are you

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Speaker 7: going to be able to go out and appreciate this?

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Speaker 7: And you're talking about a layer fog nancy as well,

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Speaker 7: because that's going to settle between your view of the

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Speaker 7: sky and yourself your position relative to the sky, all right,

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Speaker 7: So it's not just simply that it's overcast. It's like

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Speaker 7: you begin to think about fog that's perhaps over there.

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Speaker 7: It's kind of you know, how they use the term Nancy,

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Speaker 7: a blanket of fog. You begin to think about that,

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Speaker 7: So that's even going to further obscure your view.

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Speaker 4: So I'm looking at this the cloud cover on Saturday,

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Speaker 4: November twelve, twenty twenty two, in Moscow, Idaho, cloud coverage,

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Speaker 4: the height of dominant cloud layer very very thick and

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Speaker 4: overcast that night. There is not only overcast, but ice

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Speaker 4: and fog. And you know what I think would be

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Speaker 4: a fantastic courtroom demonstration, And of course, Tara Malek, Tara Malic,

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Speaker 4: high profile lawyer joining US side of this jurisdiction. Tara,

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Speaker 4: wouldn't it be a great demonstration to turn off all

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Speaker 4: the lights in the courtroom and try to recreate the conditions,

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Speaker 4: maybe with possibly an overhead projector of some sort of

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Speaker 4: the stars.

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Speaker 1: In the moon.

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Speaker 4: How little you could see that night. That would be

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Speaker 4: tough to do. Maybe there's some sort of a satellite

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Speaker 4: picture from that night. I bet there is that could

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Speaker 4: be achieved by the stake to show the jury, maybe

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Speaker 4: from the US Weather Service, how overcast it really was

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Speaker 4: that night.

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Speaker 1: And for him to be out at four a m.

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Speaker 4: Stargazing what a SACA Let me just say bs technical

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Speaker 4: legal term.

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Speaker 1: I mean Is this really happening.

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Speaker 10: Tara, Yeah, I mean again, this is a weak alibi

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Speaker 10: that's being put forward, and I agree if there's a

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Speaker 10: way to demonstrate or show a picture about what the

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Speaker 10: sky looked like that night, I would I certainly think

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Speaker 10: that would help the prosecution's case in poking holes in

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Speaker 10: this alibi defense.

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Speaker 4: I'm wondering if they're going to use cell phone data

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Speaker 4: to suggest Coburger was elsewhere at the time of the

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Speaker 4: murders looking at the stars, because that elsewhere is out

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Speaker 4: in the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, it seems like that they're going to rely on

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Speaker 10: cell phone data to say he was out at a

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Speaker 10: park's stargazing. But you know, again, where is this park

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Speaker 10: and is the park within the route of you know,

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Speaker 10: the secuitas kind of route that we've already know and

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Speaker 10: talked about that he took to get over to the victims' homes.

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Speaker 10: So there's a lot to be seen here. And it

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Speaker 10: seems like the defense is also saying we still don't

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Speaker 10: have the discovery that we need to get all this

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Speaker 10: information out and to support our alibi.

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Speaker 6: I ve justifying you don't care if the information that

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Speaker 6: you're put in your specific questions to other people getting surveyors.

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Speaker 4: Correct.

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Speaker 3: You said that in you right.

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Speaker 8: I don't know what you mean by correct, true or false.

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Speaker 3: I care about whether or not I's proliferated by the media.

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Speaker 6: You don't care if it's true.

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Speaker 3: No, I don't. I know everybody's aid prejudiction.

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Speaker 6: So it's okay to taint people who have never heard

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Speaker 6: that information for for the end result of identifying others

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Speaker 6: who have who might have bias.

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Speaker 12: I'm going to object to the questions he's he's a badgery.

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Speaker 4: So why is it that the only corroboration Mark Taye

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Speaker 4: that Bilburger is.

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Speaker 1: Bringing on is a set of cell phone paings.

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Speaker 13: But there's nothing wrong with that. The prosecution has indicated

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Speaker 13: they're going to rely on cell phone pings. And the

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Speaker 13: rule the law about Alibi and Idah who is anytime

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Speaker 13: after arraignment you're allowed to tell the defendants tell the

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Speaker 13: prosecutors rather that you're going to rely on Alibi and

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Speaker 13: you have to disclose your witnesses. However, here the witnesses

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Speaker 13: are cell phone pings, just like the prosecutions relying on

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Speaker 13: cell phone pings. So is the defendant rely allowed to

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Speaker 13: rely as well? Now of course that's going to be

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Speaker 13: put in front of a jury, just like issues about

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Speaker 13: whether he wore gloves and how strange that is. All

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Speaker 13: of that will be admitted by witnesses, all of whom

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Speaker 13: are subject to a sifting cross examination. And so now

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Speaker 13: the prosecution knows there's going to be an alibi defense,

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Speaker 13: and when there is, it has to be supported by

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Speaker 13: admissible evidence. And so with each witness comes the chance

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Speaker 13: you're reading the.

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Speaker 4: Criminal Code on evidence to me, I got it.

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Speaker 13: So that's what the defense has to do. That's what

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Speaker 13: they have to do.

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Speaker 4: Let's give Mark, you have to hold the prosecutions.

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Speaker 13: Well, what is it you're going to wear gloves?

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Speaker 1: Cell phone pings?

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Speaker 4: I've got a pair here for you, but maybe you

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Speaker 4: could borrow Koburger's.

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Speaker 1: Oh wait, no, they're an evidence joining me.

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Speaker 4: Chris McDonough, you were talking about the pings and you

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Speaker 4: didn't get to say it on air. But Tate is

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Speaker 4: all about, Oh, the pings are going to help exonerate him.

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Speaker 4: Wait a minute, Okay, he's at home to forty two,

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Speaker 4: he's at hum back at home at five point twenty seven.

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Speaker 4: He's at home at not ninety thirty two am. But

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Speaker 4: wait a minute four point fifty phone ping four forty eight,

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Speaker 4: phone turned back on Wait two forty seven am, right

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Speaker 4: before the murders, in the middle of the night, while

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Speaker 4: he's out stargazing, he decides to turn his phone off

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Speaker 4: from two forty seven to four forty eight. Wow, Chris mcdonne,

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Speaker 4: isn't that exactly when the time the murders occurred?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Absolutely, Nancy. And what's interesting at that and you

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Speaker 3: pointed it out. You know, the one thing we learned

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Speaker 3: about this alibi as well is all four of the

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Speaker 3: victims are sound asleep. And you know, the twelve other

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Speaker 3: times that he was seen around that neighborhood, they were

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Speaker 3: also asleep. But in this particular case, you have the

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Speaker 3: phone things that get up to the point where they

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Speaker 3: turn off and then all of a sudden, the video

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Speaker 3: picks it back up in the neighborhood, i e. The car.

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Speaker 3: Whenever you hear a defense attorney shay, you know, the

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Speaker 3: public has a right to know, and there's a gag order,

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Speaker 3: that's usually a clue that there's something coming.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 4: Chief suspect Brian Coburger says he's out alone driving in

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Speaker 4: the late night and early morning hours November twelve and thirteen,

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Speaker 4: but the trial judge doubles down on Coburger's defense team,

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Speaker 4: insisting you've got to hand over a witness other than the.

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Speaker 1: Moon and the stars.

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Speaker 4: The defense likely to rely on cell phone data to

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Speaker 4: try and place Brian Coburger somewhere anywhere there than the

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Speaker 4: King Roade address. The judge says he was out driving

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Speaker 4: during the late night and early morning hours November twelve

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Speaker 4: to thirteen, twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: That's his alibi.

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Speaker 4: The judge doubled down on Coburger in court in the

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Speaker 4: last hour, saying, you've got to give us a witness

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Speaker 4: or the evidence you're bringing on to corroborate this.

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Speaker 1: What do I think It is no witness at all.

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Speaker 4: It's going to be cell phone data, The defense claims

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Speaker 4: places Coburger somewhere entirely different than the King Wrote address.

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Speaker 1: Let's see the.

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Speaker 4: Timeline, isn't it true, Caitlin Hornick that Coburger we can

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Speaker 4: prove turned his phone off and on the night of

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Speaker 4: the murders.

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Speaker 1: Just to yes, no, yes, absolutely, two forty two. His

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Speaker 1: phone is on at his apartment in Pullman. I went there.

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Speaker 4: It's about an eight minute drive from the murder scene

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Speaker 4: eight to twelve minutes to forty seven, he turns his

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Speaker 4: phone off. Who on this panel turns your phone off

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Speaker 4: when you're going driving in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 4: I would keep mine on just in case I had

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Speaker 4: a nine to one one. Anyway, he turns his off.

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Speaker 4: We know that, and that is irrefutable. I'm gonna circle

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Speaker 4: back in a moment to Bill Slater, who says, you

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Speaker 4: gotta take your battery out of your phone to be

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Speaker 4: untraceable just turning it off. Hey, we know you're doing that.

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Speaker 4: Two forty seven. This guy is up and about turning

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Speaker 4: his phone off. Three point twenty nine. Not cell phone,

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Speaker 4: but video surveillance from a nearby home a residence shows

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Speaker 4: a white Saedan passing the King Road address that looks

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Speaker 4: oops just like his white Elantra.

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Speaker 1: For zero four.

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Speaker 4: The sedan returns and stops in front of the King

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Speaker 4: Road address four twenty Sixteen minutes later, the white Sadan

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Speaker 4: scratches off off, taking off like a bat out of

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Speaker 4: Hell at a high speed, leaving the King Road address.

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Speaker 4: And then twenty eight minutes later and for me, it

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Speaker 4: was about an hour drive four forty eight a m

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Speaker 4: twenty eight minutes later, that phone is turned back on

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Speaker 4: and it's pinging south of Moscow, Idaho State Highway ninety five.

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Speaker 4: I took that drive to Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University,

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Speaker 4: author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of

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Speaker 4: a hit series, Body Bags, and most important for me

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Speaker 4: right now, for expert and death investigator Just Scott. He's

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Speaker 4: between a rock and a hard spot. I want you

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Speaker 4: to analyze everything Slater.

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Speaker 1: Has told us, but also we are.

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Speaker 4: Poking a little bit of fun at the moon and

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Speaker 4: the stargazing alibi.

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Speaker 1: But think about it, what else is Ann Taylor, the

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Speaker 1: defense lawyer, going to say he was the party with

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Speaker 1: all of his friends. That ain't happening.

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Speaker 4: They got to come up with something to make sense

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Speaker 4: to a jury why he may have been out driving around.

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Speaker 4: The only thing they can do is refute the cell

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Speaker 4: phone data because that videos.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's got its car.

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Speaker 7: Tag, No it doesn't. But that's all they can do, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: isn't it You know, when you begin to think about it,

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Speaker 7: they can. They're muddy in the waters with all of

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Speaker 7: this digital back and forth. Here's the one thing that

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Speaker 7: they cannot overcome. Get this number in your mind, five

396
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Speaker 7: point three seven optilion that goes to his DNA profile.

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Speaker 7: That means that the chances that it was somebody else

398
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Speaker 7: are at that range. It's amazing. And look look what

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Speaker 7: I have here. See it came off the snap, Nancy.

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Speaker 1: Again, because that's exactly where the DNA was found.

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00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I don't think that he was necessarily, you know,

402
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 7: planning on this. But listen, I don't know if you

403
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,240
Speaker 7: could hear that, but this has got and I'm fascinated

404
00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 7: by this. I have been since the case. This little

405
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 7: ring right here where the snap actually actuates, it's a ridge,

406
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Speaker 7: and so if you're actuating it with your thumb and

407
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 7: you drag your thumb across it, anything can be collected

408
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 7: in here. We think about touch DNA. If he's got sweat,

409
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,160
Speaker 7: you know, that's coming off of his hand, it could

410
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Speaker 7: be deposited there. Both are sources for DNA, ones richer

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00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 7: than the other. But you know, when you begin to

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Speaker 7: think about these numbers, Nancy, and just to put it

413
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Speaker 7: in perspective, I'm not a real fine math guy, but

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Speaker 7: that's twenty twenty seven zero's Nancy. That's an amazing number.

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00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 7: And so the reason I'm saying this is that I

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00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 7: don't think they have anything else. And they can parade

417
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Speaker 7: all of the experts up there that they want to,

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Speaker 7: but the one thing you can't get away from at

419
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Speaker 7: the end of the day. Yeah, they don't have the knife,

420
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 7: but they've got this sheath and his DNA is on it,

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00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:25,719
Speaker 7: and that's a heck of a mountain for them to

422
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,880
Speaker 7: have to climb. This was not murder. This was pure

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Speaker 7: on butchery using this combat knife. This is a k bar.

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Speaker 7: This is something that our troopers have used since just

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Speaker 7: prior to World War Two. Marines are famous for it.

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00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 7: It's a combat knife, it's a fighting knife. When all

427
00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 7: of that is said and done and we see the

428
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,480
Speaker 7: interior of that house and we see what kind of

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Speaker 7: butchery was perpetrated on these poor kids, they better damn

430
00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 7: well have something else because that dog gonna hunt, because

431
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:04,199
Speaker 7: the jury is going to be put into position to

432
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 7: observe all of this, and then you're going to get

433
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Speaker 7: somebody with a PhD in DNA sciences and they're going

434
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Speaker 7: to put them up on the stand and I don't know,

435
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 7: I don't know what the defense can put up there

436
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 7: that can thwart that particular attack on the part of

437
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 7: the defense.

438
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 4: Hey Scott, You've testified it in so many cases. And

439
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 4: when I would prepare cases for trial, I'll get my

440
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 4: own case ready rock solid.

441
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 1: Right then I.

442
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 4: Would think about what they were going to do and

443
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,840
Speaker 4: how I could fight it. Do you remember under Reagan

444
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 4: he came up with the Star Wars defense. We were

445
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 4: going to shoot down missiles before they ever hit our homeland,

446
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,000
Speaker 4: the US, right right, Yeah, that's what I try to do.

447
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 4: So I'm thinking what are they going to do and

448
00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 4: how can I destroy it? They are going to attack

449
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 4: the DNA, the science itself.

450
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 1: Which you know, five point three seven octillion.

451
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 4: I think is more war people that have ever in

452
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 4: history that we have lived on Earth. Okay, so it's him,

453
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 4: But what they could do is attack DNA science in general.

454
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 4: But they could attack chain of custody of the DNA.

455
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 4: They are likely to pull an OJ claiming that O. J.

456
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,200
Speaker 4: Simpson claiming that the cops wanted a defendant so badly

457
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 4: they decided depending on Coburger, but also the placement of

458
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 4: the knife and the genesis of the knife, Joe Scott.

459
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,240
Speaker 4: They could claim, Hey, yeah, I went to a gun

460
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 4: and knife show and hipped up a knife like that,

461
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:40,719
Speaker 4: and I tested it and I put it back, and

462
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 4: some other dude, I always used the sod defense.

463
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: Some other dude did it. Must have used that knife.

464
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 1: That's where they're going to go. I think, yeah, I.

465
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 7: Agree with you, and I've thought. I've put a lot

466
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 7: of thought into that relative to gun and knife shows,

467
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,719
Speaker 7: you know, and the idea that he would randomly, you know,

468
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 7: you guys in law use this term reasonableness. Is that reasonable.

469
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: Crime stories? With Nancy Grace.

470
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 4: While Brian Coburger's defense team tries their best to alibi him,

471
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 4: to place him anywhere other than the crime scene, damning

472
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 4: video emerges of a white Elantra identical to coburgers near

473
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 4: the King wrote address.

474
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: That's the crime scene.

475
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 12: Part of the hearing on the fourteenth is to talk

476
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 12: about the different parts of that video that we've received

477
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 12: and how we need the whole contacts. This is the

478
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 12: video that they say places this car near the residents.

479
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 12: We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think Brian's

480
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 12: right to a fair trial means the public needs to

481
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 12: know that they've withheld the audio from a great portion

482
00:29:02,080 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 12: of that. And then it starts a long time before

483
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 12: the little clip that we've received.

484
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 1: Man, is she burying the lead?

485
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 4: She's complaining about the audio not being attached to the video.

486
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: Here's the bombshell.

487
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 4: There you are hearing the defense attorney for Brian Koburger

488
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 4: and Taylor talking about the existence of video that places

489
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 4: Coburger's car, the white Elantra, near the crime scene.

490
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the big deal.

491
00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 4: We believe that there's gonna be two different video clips

492
00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 4: shown to the jury, one near the home and one

493
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,280
Speaker 4: near the gas station there at the corner. And I'm

494
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 4: gonna let Chris mcdonnet describe the gas station video what

495
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 4: he believes it will portray, and what the video at

496
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 4: the home we believe is going to portray. Guys with me,

497
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 4: an all star panel makes sense of what we.

498
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: Know right now.

499
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 4: Oh you know what, I was just having my tea

500
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 4: and I don't want to leave fingerprints on the cup,

501
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 4: so I just thought I would use these. Okay, but

502
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 4: that said, go hey, Chris McDonald everybody, take off your gloves.

503
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 4: I promise not to collect your DNA, well not during

504
00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 4: the show anyway.

505
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: Go ahead.

506
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, so Nancy loved the gloves. Right next to the

507
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 3: murder scene, there's a house right on the corner there,

508
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 3: and outside in the light socket for the front porch

509
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: was an active surveillance camera. I believe that the evidence

510
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: will show that that car comes up that street multiple times,

511
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 3: and those are the clips that they're holding back, as

512
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,760
Speaker 3: well as the additional piece of evidence that they're going

513
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: to show is away from the scene. They're going to

514
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 3: show that that vehicle was either a coming into the

515
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: crime scene area and or be leaving. And I don't

516
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: know if they're going to be able to correlate that

517
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 3: in a relationship to some of the phone things, because

518
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 3: remember he turned his phone off, so that und of itself,

519
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: it's going to be interesting.

520
00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: Guys.

521
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 4: I want to hear exactly what the defense attorney and

522
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 4: Taylor said and interwhining about the video.

523
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: What are we learning? Listen.

524
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 12: Part of the hearing on the fourteenth is to talk

525
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 12: about the different parts of that video that we've received

526
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 12: and how we need the whole contacts. This is the

527
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 12: video that they say places this car near the residents.

528
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 12: We've received little tiny pieces of that. We think Brian's

529
00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 12: right to a fair trial means the public needs to

530
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 12: know that they've withheld the audio from a great portion

531
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 12: of that and that it starts a long time before

532
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,800
Speaker 12: the little clip that we've received.

533
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 4: To Essin Scott Morgan, forensic expert and professor at Jacksonville

534
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 4: State University, I was listening to every word she says.

535
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 4: And Taylor is complaining about little tiny pieces of the

536
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 4: video placing the car near the residents, according to police, and.

537
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: She doesn't like that, and she thinks that's not fair.

538
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 4: But what it is is different video cameras picking him

539
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 4: up along the way.

540
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: Did you decide for that? Am I feeding you? Spoon

541
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 1: feeding you?

542
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 10: Now?

543
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 7: Here's the thing, you know, these ring cams and these

544
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 7: CCTV obviously they're more prevalent today than at any other

545
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 7: point in time in history, and so we don't necessarily

546
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 7: know about where all of these clips are coming from.

547
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 7: We do know the area that he was in, allegedly,

548
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 7: this car moving back and forth is going to be

549
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:50,479
Speaker 7: the most densely populated area in this geographic location. You know,

550
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 7: you get out in these areas that are far flung.

551
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 7: Remember the loop that they talk about that where they

552
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,040
Speaker 7: collected they were trying to collect images off of these

553
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 7: gas station cams and wherever where else the car may

554
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 7: have passed, this is going to be the target rich

555
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 7: area though around that residence at that point in time.

556
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 7: Did they shake the bushes enough to collect enough of

557
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 7: this data out there to piece the sin completely together?

558
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 7: Apparently she thinks they may have.

559
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 4: Idaho murder suspect Brian Koberger gets pulled over by law

560
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 4: enforcement two times, not just in one day, but actually

561
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 4: within minutes of each other, on his way for Thanksgiving

562
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 4: break to his parents' home, and ne'ar the Pocono's.

563
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: I just got to say, two times within minutes. That's

564
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: no coincidence.

565
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 3: How y'all doing today?

566
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 5: Good good?

567
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: Take a look at your driver's lines and real quick,

568
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 3: if I could.

569
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:44,640
Speaker 6: See, is right up on that man?

570
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 4: Man?

571
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 3: You right up on the back end of that man

572
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 3: old job for tailgating?

573
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 13: Is this your car?

574
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 6: Okay?

575
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 13: Cool?

576
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 6: Where you headed?

577
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 7: Actually, well, we're coming from WSU.

578
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 4: Where are you headed? He later says, we're going for

579
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 4: tie food. And the dad's like what you are seeing?

580
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 4: Bodycam video when a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriff's Department bodycam

581
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 4: when they pull them over and ask to see Coburger's

582
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 4: driver's license. Now, it was argued back and forth, and

583
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 4: I claimed vehemently that this was no coincidence because there

584
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 4: were two pullovers by local l E law enforcement in

585
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 4: one trip home. When does that happen? How often do

586
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 4: you get pulled over? I rarely get pulled over. So

587
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 4: you get pulled over twice and you never even get

588
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,840
Speaker 4: a ticket. Oh no, that's stunt to high heaven with

589
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 4: me right now. Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book,

590
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 4: When the Night Comes Falling a requiem for the ITO

591
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 4: student murders, which is amazing, and in his book he

592
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 4: outlines how these two pullovers nearly costs the FBI their investigation,

593
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,760
Speaker 4: or so they thought.

594
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: Take a listen to more of the pullover. What's w

595
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: s U.

596
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's burdens.

597
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:27,800
Speaker 7: That is SWAT team area.

598
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 3: So we're okay, I have a hard time hearing you

599
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: because of the traffic.

600
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 13: So you're coming from Washington State University and you're going where?

601
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 14: Oh you going back to Okay, Yeah, we're a little light.

602
00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 4: To Howard Bloom, I'm gonna circle back to the fact that, unasked,

603
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 4: he starts talking about talking about SWAT's team, SWAT Team

604
00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 4: swarming the area. Methink, thou dost tests too much in

605
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 4: the immortal words of William Shakespeare. Nobody asked, nobody asked

606
00:36:06,960 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 4: about the Idaho murders. Yet he's dead. He's just regurgitating,

607
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,279
Speaker 4: vomiting the information.

608
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 1: When nobody asked.

609
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 4: But I want to circle back to the so called

610
00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:21,399
Speaker 4: hat box operation that you described so well in your

611
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,240
Speaker 4: book When the Night Comes Falling.

612
00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 15: Explain and why did the FBI, who absolutely was following

613
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 15: Coburger as seen his dad across the country, thought that

614
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 15: their entire operation may go up in flames.

615
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 14: Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger

616
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 14: was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before

617
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 14: they even told the Moscow Tesk Force. They kept this

618
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,239
Speaker 14: to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first

619
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,880
Speaker 14: reason was that it was the identification was based on

620
00:36:56,000 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 14: the genealogy genetics investigative genetic geneality, and they thought that

621
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 14: wouldn't hold up in court. Or a much more cynical

622
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 14: explanation would be that the FBI didn't want to share

623
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 14: the credit for Coburg's arrest with anyone else.

624
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 3: So they go off and follow him.

625
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 14: And they have cars, they have a plane in the

626
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:22,040
Speaker 14: air that's following his route, and suddenly they see Coburger

627
00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 14: being stopped, and they don't know what's going on, and

628
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 14: they don't know what to do. Had they think a

629
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,319
Speaker 14: local cop, a local sheriff had seen the be on

630
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 14: the lookout for notice and swooped in on this Hondai

631
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 14: a Lantra, or they're also wondering how is Coburger going

632
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 14: to react he is a suspect in a quadruple homicide.

633
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 14: Is he going to get on the put his foot

634
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 14: on the accelerator and tear out, or perhaps he's going

635
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:56,000
Speaker 14: to shoot anything as possible of the officer who's coming

636
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:57,640
Speaker 14: in to give him this traffic ticket.

637
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 3: Then nine minutes later.

638
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 4: It's almost laughable, Howard, because the FBI actually has a

639
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 4: bird in the air watching. They see one pullover by

640
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 4: the Hancock Keunty sheriffs, and Coburger goes on his way.

641
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:16,080
Speaker 1: And then there's another pullover.

642
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,720
Speaker 4: Don't you know they're like, what is happening down there?

643
00:38:21,120 --> 00:38:26,399
Speaker 4: Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm

644
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 4: sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And

645
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 4: they're watching from a bird right.

646
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 14: Yes, they have assess and they're flying overhead. You know,

647
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 14: it's a hawk, waiting to swoop down in case anything happens.

648
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 14: In effect, and they've been building this case for six

649
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 14: weeks and they're finally getting closer, and they think the

650
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 14: whole case is going to be blown apart before they've

651
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 14: connected all the dots, and they are filled with a

652
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 14: sense of panic.

653
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 3: But discipline what Howard.

654
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,399
Speaker 4: They were right and this is no offense to Indiana

655
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:02,160
Speaker 4: at all. But I understand where the FBI is coming from,

656
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 4: and you know how much I hate the Feds.

657
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: But that said Chris.

658
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 4: Mcdonnald joining me, Director Cole Case Foundation, former homicide detective

659
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 4: and star of The Interview Room on YouTube. Chris, if

660
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 4: they had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and they

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Speaker 4: arrested him or sped off, anything could have happened. Because

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00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,719
Speaker 4: we can't we can't predict what Coburger is going to do.

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Speaker 4: Just like his father, he had no idea what his

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Speaker 4: son might do. We would never have gotten the evidence

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00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 4: that we got. When they finally got home to the

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00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 4: Pocono area, remember they were surveilled. They went in finally

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00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 4: or in the early morning hours, they catch him I

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00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 4: think in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and

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Speaker 4: separating his trash from everybody else's trash, and they see

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Speaker 4: him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle. None of

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Speaker 4: that would have happened if local authorities had arrested Coburger

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00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 4: or for a traffic violation, or if Kyburger spun out

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Speaker 4: and brought about his own arrest.

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Speaker 1: So I understand why they were worried.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and absolutely, and not only that. If you remember,

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Speaker 3: this officer is leaning in, so if he would have

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Speaker 3: seen anything in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan

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00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 3: was talking about, you know, any blood transfer or anything

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Speaker 3: like that. Well, the clock starts ticking right then and there.

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Speaker 3: If this officer starts diving into this traffic stop, that

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Speaker 3: you may have this fugitive task for surveillance team, you know,

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Speaker 3: overhead and behind him going hey, what the heck is

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Speaker 3: going on here? So, and quite frankly, I hate to

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Speaker 3: say it, but I've seen this as well as many others,

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Speaker 3: numerous at times where you know, this thing could have

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Speaker 3: gone south really fast. But fortunately they cut him loose

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Speaker 3: and they were able to connect those stocks.

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Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off, good

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Speaker 1: bye friend,