Speaker 1: Just because you're uncomfortable, It doesn't mean that you're hitting
Speaker 1: in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2: It just means that there are some changes.
Speaker 1: Growing pains are part of most experiences that change in
Speaker 1: our lives.
Speaker 3: Wow, welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great
Speaker 3: thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 3: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 3: you think ring true. And yet for many of us,
Speaker 3: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 3: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 3: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 3: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 3: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 3: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 3: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 3: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 3: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is doctor
Speaker 3: Joy Harden, a licensed psychologist and the host of the
Speaker 3: wildly popular, award winning mental health podcast Therapy for Black Girls.
Speaker 3: Doctor Harden's work focuses on making mental health topics more
Speaker 3: relevant and accessible for black women. Her work has been
Speaker 3: featured in Essence, Oprah Daily, The New York Times, Huff Post,
Speaker 3: Black Enterprise, and Women's Health. Today, Eric and doctor Harden
Speaker 3: discuss her book, Sisterhood Heels The Transformative Power of Healing
Speaker 3: in Community.
Speaker 4: Hi, doctor Joy, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. Eric, it's a
Speaker 1: pleasure to connect.
Speaker 4: It's great to talk with you. You have a wonderful
Speaker 4: podcast that I'm sure will come up, and you also
Speaker 4: have written a book which is called Sisterhood Heels The
Speaker 4: Transformative Power of Healing in Community. And we'll get into
Speaker 4: all that in a moment, but before we do, let's start,
Speaker 4: like we always do with the parable. In the Parable,
Speaker 4: there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say,
Speaker 4: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 4: are always a battle. What is a good wolf which
Speaker 4: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 4: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 4: and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think
Speaker 4: about it for a second. They look up at their grandparents.
Speaker 4: They say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says,
Speaker 4: the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
Speaker 4: by asking you what that parable means to you in
Speaker 4: your life and in the work that you do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, such an important parable, Eric, I appreciate you sharing that.
Speaker 1: You know, I think it really boils down to, like,
Speaker 1: whatever we give our attention and energy to is the
Speaker 1: thing that grows inside of us and in our lives.
Speaker 1: And I think as it relates to even the work
Speaker 1: that I do, like so much of it is focused
Speaker 1: on making mental health more relevant and accessible for Black
Speaker 1: women and girls. And I think the way that the
Speaker 1: community has grown and the attention it has gotten in
Speaker 1: the lives that it has changed, really speaks to the
Speaker 1: parable that you share.
Speaker 4: You know, as I've listened to your podcast, as I
Speaker 4: read your book, I'm interested in the great amount of
Speaker 4: similarity there is and then also the difference it is there.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: The similarity is we're all human, we all face a
Speaker 4: similar set of mental challenges, and we all have you know,
Speaker 4: different degrees of emotional thought patterns. All these things that
Speaker 4: are similar, And as your podcast makes clear, there's a difference. Right,
Speaker 4: me being a white man, you being a black woman.
Speaker 4: There are some differences too, And I'm curious how you
Speaker 4: think about the commonalities between people and mental conditions and
Speaker 4: just overall emotional wellness, and how you also think about
Speaker 4: the differences and when is it useful for you to
Speaker 4: make a difference, and when is it useful for you
Speaker 4: to focus on similarities.
Speaker 1: So, you know, we all are governed by our emotions
Speaker 1: and have mental health that we need to tend to,
Speaker 1: and so I think that is a commonality, right, Like
Speaker 1: we all experience different things. I think the differences and
Speaker 1: why it's important to focus on that is that the
Speaker 1: way that we experience our emotions is largely governed by
Speaker 1: who we are in this world.
Speaker 2: Right, So there are definitely.
Speaker 1: Things that I've learned ways that I've been socialized that
Speaker 1: are very different than likely the ways that you have
Speaker 1: been socialized. Right. I think the history of racism in
Speaker 1: this country plays a large part in the internal feelings
Speaker 1: and experiences of black people, and so there's a lot
Speaker 1: that we feel that is dictated by things that have
Speaker 1: nothing to do with us. And so I think, you know,
Speaker 1: the commonality is that we all have feelings, but there
Speaker 1: definitely are outside forces that impact the way that we
Speaker 1: experience our feelings, the way we talk about our feelings,
Speaker 1: the way that we even give ourselves permission to experience
Speaker 1: our feelings. I think it's also governed by some of
Speaker 1: those things.
Speaker 4: So something I'm going to be doing a little more
Speaker 4: often is ask you, the listener, to reflect on what
Speaker 4: you're hearing. We strongly believe that knowledge is power, but
Speaker 4: only if combined with action and integration. So before we
Speaker 4: move on, I'd like to ask you what's coming up
Speaker 4: for you as you listen to this. Are there any
Speaker 4: things you're currently doing that or feeding your bad wolf
Speaker 4: that might make sense to remove, or any things you
Speaker 4: could do to feed your good wolf that you're not
Speaker 4: currently doing. So if you have the headspace for it,
Speaker 4: I'd love if you could just pause for a second
Speaker 4: and ask yourself, what's one thing I could do today
Speaker 4: or tonight to feed my good wolf? Whatever your thing is.
Speaker 4: A really useful strategy can be having something external, a
Speaker 4: prompt or a friend, or a tool that regularly nudges
Speaker 4: you back towards awareness and intentionality. For the past year,
Speaker 4: I've been sending little good Wolf reminders to some of
Speaker 4: my friends and community members, just quick, little SMS messages
Speaker 4: two times per week that give them a little bit
Speaker 4: of wisdom and remind them to pause for a second
Speaker 4: and come off autopilot if you want. I can send
Speaker 4: them to you too. I do it totally for free,
Speaker 4: and people seem to really love them. Just drop your
Speaker 4: information at oneufeed dot net, slash sms and I can
Speaker 4: send them to you. It's totally free, and if you
Speaker 4: end up not liking the little reminders, you can easily
Speaker 4: opt out. That's one you feed dot net slash sms.
Speaker 4: And now back to the episode, And is this sort
Speaker 4: of what you mean by culturally competent therapy? Yes, say
Speaker 4: more about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So culturally competent therapy really refers to a therapist
Speaker 1: having an understanding of some of these outside factors that
Speaker 1: may influence how we experience our feelings and emotions, and
Speaker 1: also understanding the stigma related to mental health concerns for
Speaker 1: communities of color. Right, so we know that there is
Speaker 1: a large stigma, like it has not always been okay
Speaker 1: for communities of color to even.
Speaker 2: Talk about like not feeling well.
Speaker 1: Right, Like this idea that you should be strong all
Speaker 1: the time and if you have to ask for help,
Speaker 1: it's a weakness like that is something that many communities
Speaker 1: of color are kind of socialized to believe by parents
Speaker 1: and grandparents, and so having therapists who understand what you
Speaker 1: may be bringing into therapy and have a sensitivity to
Speaker 1: walking you through some of those things I think is
Speaker 1: really important for a therapist. There are also some things
Speaker 1: that people experience that you want your therapists to just understand, right.
Speaker 1: So one of the common examples that comes up is,
Speaker 1: you know, black women will often change their hair a lot, right,
Speaker 1: so maybe one week I come to session, I have braids,
Speaker 1: the next week it's straight. And so spending a lot
Speaker 1: of time in your therapy session talking about like, oh,
Speaker 1: I noticed that your hair is different may feel a
Speaker 1: little off putting if you don't understand that that is
Speaker 1: just kind of something that happens. Another example is, you know,
Speaker 1: black people and other people of color often have experiences
Speaker 1: in retail shopping kinds of places where they are followed,
Speaker 1: or have experiences with law enforcement, and you do not
Speaker 1: want to go to a therapist who questions the validity
Speaker 1: of those things, right, So it should not be like, oh,
Speaker 1: are you sure that really happened?
Speaker 2: Or was that person really you know?
Speaker 1: Like, because we know enough to know that you should
Speaker 1: believe somebody's experiences when they're telling you something has happened.
Speaker 4: Right, say that slightly differently, if I were to go
Speaker 4: to my therapist and talk about being followed, it might
Speaker 4: be worth saying, hey, let's question that, because you know
Speaker 4: you might be reading something into a situation, whereas it's
Speaker 4: more likely, given our cultural world, that you would have
Speaker 4: been followed. And it's better to assume in your case, like,
Speaker 4: let's not dive into whether this person's having delusions, let's
Speaker 4: actually believe them because the cultural context makes sense here
Speaker 4: in a way that it wouldn't for me, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 4: I think about these things because as I was reading
Speaker 4: your book, you know, your book is written to other
Speaker 4: black women sisters, right, of which I am not. I'm
Speaker 4: not a sister, And yet so much of it I
Speaker 4: relate with again something I don't, and so I just
Speaker 4: always find it interesting where the things are similar and
Speaker 4: where their difference. It's sort of the question on different level, though,
Speaker 4: which is if you're a female, should you have a
Speaker 4: female therapist? If you're a male, should you have a
Speaker 4: male therapist? And I think there are different opinions on that,
Speaker 4: but I do think it speaks to that. The other
Speaker 4: thing is you were talking I was curious about you
Speaker 4: were talking about how in communities of color it's this
Speaker 4: stigma against mental health and against not being strong all
Speaker 4: the time, and I was thinking a little bit like, well,
Speaker 4: that certainly was the case in all culture maybe one
Speaker 4: hundred years ago. Do you think that it's just the
Speaker 4: stigma has lifted more quickly out of white culture than
Speaker 4: it has out of black culture.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know, more white people have
Speaker 1: had the experiences of parents and grandparents being in the
Speaker 1: mental health system in ways that have been helpful to them, right,
Speaker 1: like I think for black people in other communities of color,
Speaker 1: health system has largely been punitive historically, right, And so
Speaker 1: you know, I think why people are just more familiar,
Speaker 1: there's more language, typically more resources for you to kind
Speaker 1: of tend to your mental health, whereas that's not necessarily
Speaker 1: the case in other communities.
Speaker 4: Right. But it seems like that that is starting to
Speaker 4: change a little bit with work by people like yourself,
Speaker 4: and there's a number of prominent people in that space
Speaker 4: that are starting to really spread that message, which is wonderful.
Speaker 4: Finding a therapist is traditionally a challenging thing really for anybody,
Speaker 4: because you know, it's just not a well organized marketplace.
Speaker 4: And yet I assume it's even more so. Obviously if
Speaker 4: you're trying to find somebody who's culturally appropriate for your
Speaker 4: type of therapy, what sort of things have you done
Speaker 4: to make that easier for people of color?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Eric, you know, you bring up a really good point,
Speaker 1: and I just want to stop and talk about the
Speaker 1: difficulty in finding a therapist, because I think the process
Speaker 1: is a little different than like just if you're looking
Speaker 1: for a primary care physician or like a dentist, right, like,
Speaker 1: typically you will maybe like if you're using insurance benefici,
Speaker 1: you'll go to like whatever the directory or resource is.
Speaker 1: You may find the person that's closest to you. Maybe
Speaker 1: you look up some reviews, or maybe you get a
Speaker 1: referral from friends, like it tends to be a little
Speaker 1: bit more straightforward. Whereas therapy, we know that the relationship
Speaker 1: that you have with your therapist is actually the thing
Speaker 1: that makes all the difference. And so of course, you
Speaker 1: know you want a dinnis probably that has good bedside manner, right,
Speaker 1: and that is pleasant, But if they are a great
Speaker 1: dentists and they're not like so great bedside manner, you
Speaker 1: might let it slide because you only see them, what
Speaker 1: once or twice a year, maybe if everything is good.
Speaker 2: Versus your therapist, who you are.
Speaker 1: Likely meeting with on a much more regular basis, in
Speaker 1: a lot of cases once a week. And so it
Speaker 1: really is important for you to find a therapist who
Speaker 1: you really connect with, somebody who you really feel.
Speaker 2: Like gets you.
Speaker 1: So that is a part of what makes it so
Speaker 1: much more difficult to find a therapist is that you're
Speaker 1: looking for so many other factors that are beyond the
Speaker 1: things you're typically looking for in a different kind of
Speaker 1: healthcare professional.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that can be daunting, right. Yes, I've been in
Speaker 4: therapy on and off. It started when I was even
Speaker 4: teenage years because I was in all kinds of trouble
Speaker 4: all the time, and so I know how critical that
Speaker 4: relationship is. So the thought of like, okay, I'm going
Speaker 4: to do that again, there's nobody obvious for me to
Speaker 4: go to, or I don't have any good recommendations, so
Speaker 4: now I'm just kind of rolling the dice as it were.
Speaker 4: It is daunting. It makes it easy, I think, to
Speaker 4: often just be like that's too hard and not do anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you have to think about the
Speaker 1: fact that typically when people are reaching out to a therapist,
Speaker 1: it's not when things are going well in your life,
Speaker 1: right right, So there definitely could be the case, but
Speaker 1: most often, like people are in pain or they are
Speaker 1: experiencing some kind of distress, and so you already have
Speaker 1: a much smaller bandwidth to be able to do these
Speaker 1: kinds of things, and so finding a therapist and kind
Speaker 1: of wading through all these profiles and you know, asking
Speaker 1: questions and doing the consultations, it can feel very, very daunting,
Speaker 1: which is why I often talk about, you know, one
Speaker 1: of the ways that it is great to help somebody
Speaker 1: in your life who you know is struggling with something
Speaker 1: and maybe needing a therapist is for you to be
Speaker 1: able to help them to narrow that search down. So
Speaker 1: you kind of taking on the task or doing some
Speaker 1: of that leg work and checking insurance and stuff, and
Speaker 1: maybe sending them a list of like three therapists who
Speaker 1: you've identified, can be a great way to kind of
Speaker 1: really help somebody who's struggling.
Speaker 4: That's a great idea. What other tips do you have
Speaker 4: for people in finding a good therapist, say, maybe broadly
Speaker 4: and then narrowing down to people of color.
Speaker 1: MM Hm, you know, you made a great point, Eric
Speaker 1: that for some people it is important to find like
Speaker 1: if you're a man and you want to work with
Speaker 1: another male therapist, or if you're a black woman and
Speaker 1: you want a black woman therapist, Like, it is perfectly
Speaker 1: okay for you to go after the thing that you want.
Speaker 1: But I tell people to be open to the idea
Speaker 1: that you may find an incredible therapist who comes in
Speaker 1: a package that looks nothing like what you thought that
Speaker 1: you wanted. Some strategies for finding a good therapist, So one,
Speaker 1: I think referrals can be a great way. So if
Speaker 1: you have other people in your circle who work with therapists,
Speaker 1: you may want to ask, you know, hey, would you
Speaker 1: mind giving me their information? But if you have other
Speaker 1: healthcare professionals that you work with as a part of
Speaker 1: your care team, asking them for referrals of other people that,
Speaker 1: like maybe previous clients have worked with can also be
Speaker 1: a great way. But a lot of therapists are also
Speaker 1: very active on like social media. Many of us have
Speaker 1: websites and like directory profiles where you could learn more
Speaker 1: about us. Lots of people have like videos and different
Speaker 1: kinds of things, so you can get a little feel
Speaker 1: for what it might be like to talk with someone
Speaker 1: and like whether you think you might like them. But
Speaker 1: I do encourage people to make sure that the therapist
Speaker 1: has training in the area that you're wanting assistance with,
Speaker 1: because you may love somebody's personality and think it would
Speaker 1: be really great to talk with them, but if they
Speaker 1: don't actually have their training to be able to help
Speaker 1: you with whatever you're coming into therapy for, it may
Speaker 1: not be successful even though you really like them.
Speaker 4: When it comes to culturally competent therapy, is it possible that,
Speaker 4: let's say pretend I as a white man, could I
Speaker 4: be culturally competent to work with people of color or
Speaker 4: is it really more people of color that are going
Speaker 4: to be culturally competent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Eric, it is honestly, very very important for people
Speaker 1: like you to be culturally competent.
Speaker 2: And we also use the term culturally.
Speaker 1: Responsive because competent means it kind of has the illusion
Speaker 1: that like you could check a box and like you're competente,
Speaker 1: got it, versus culturally responsive, meaning like you're doing the
Speaker 1: work to kind of make sure that you can create
Speaker 1: spaces where people of all different backgrounds can come and
Speaker 1: feel safe in your therapeutic environment. And so even if
Speaker 1: every black person wanted a black therapist, like, there are
Speaker 1: not enough of us to go around, which means that
Speaker 1: our colleagues who are not black need to be making
Speaker 1: sure that they are doing the work in terms of
Speaker 1: discovering unconscious biases and doing the trainings and having conversations,
Speaker 1: reading books, listening to podcasts, like to do the work
Speaker 1: so that somebody could come to you and feel like
Speaker 1: they have a really good experience with you therapeutically.
Speaker 4: Makes sense, Thank you. So one of the things I
Speaker 4: spend a lot of time thinking about is the balance
Speaker 4: between self improvement and self acceptance. This just seems to
Speaker 4: be a fundamental sort of tension that exists in this space.
Speaker 4: On one hand, we might want to improve oftentimes, as
Speaker 4: you said, because we're in pain, or because we're struggling,
Speaker 4: or a relationship isn't going well, or something in our
Speaker 4: life isn't working the way we want it to. And
Speaker 4: yet we also know that we can get stuck in
Speaker 4: that place of always thinking things need to be better
Speaker 4: than they are. And so how do you think about
Speaker 4: that balance, both in your own life and with your clients.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that.
Speaker 1: That is a really important thing to highlight, and I
Speaker 1: do feel, like Eric, the proliferation of social media has
Speaker 1: made that tension much more pronounced, because I think you
Speaker 1: can follow all kinds of accounts and all kinds of
Speaker 1: people who are constantly talking about like, oh, if you
Speaker 1: have these symptoms, like this may be the thing going
Speaker 1: on with you, which I think only adds to this
Speaker 1: idea that there's something inherently wrong with us.
Speaker 2: All the time.
Speaker 1: And so I think it's important not to view ourselves
Speaker 1: as like this ongoing like self improvement DIY project, because
Speaker 1: I think it can get really easy to fall into
Speaker 1: that trap of always having a thing that we want
Speaker 1: to fix in ourselves as opposed to, yes, there may
Speaker 1: be some things that I need to work on, but
Speaker 1: I am also worthy to be loved and perfectly fine
Speaker 1: just as I am, And so I think that that
Speaker 1: is a tention that many people struggle with, even in
Speaker 1: my own life, Like you mentioned, like, I definitely think
Speaker 1: the book writing process illuminated some things for me that
Speaker 1: I did not recognize about myself, Like I feel like
Speaker 1: I have far more control issues, way more perfectionistic than
Speaker 1: I ever imagined. And so there were many sessions spent
Speaker 1: talking with my own therapists about like how to balance, like, okay,
Speaker 1: is it good enough to kind of put out into
Speaker 1: the world. And so I think that that is something
Speaker 1: as humans, especially in the advent of social media, we
Speaker 1: have to be very mindful of to strike.
Speaker 2: The right balance.
Speaker 4: I think it mirrors a natural tension in humans between
Speaker 4: of the grass is always greener mindset, right, like if
Speaker 4: I just had this, if I just had that. But
Speaker 4: given the focus that our culture has on emotional and
Speaker 4: mental health, which is broadly a good thing, that perpetual
Speaker 4: tension has made its way into that world too. And
Speaker 4: I agree with you that social media kind of has
Speaker 4: a lot to do with it and trying to find
Speaker 4: the right balance. It's interesting. I was having a conversation
Speaker 4: with I don't remember who it was the last couple
Speaker 4: of weeks. We're talking about perfectionism, and this person was saying,
Speaker 4: I never thought of myself as a perfectionist, right, like
Speaker 4: I will make mistakes, I'll leave a typo in my place,
Speaker 4: isn't necessarily perfectly clean, etc. Etc. But what she identified
Speaker 4: in herself was that she realized that there was a
Speaker 4: certain amount of emotional perfection she was expecting. She was
Speaker 4: expecting to always be happy, for things to always be
Speaker 4: going well, and when they weren't, she was suffering as
Speaker 4: a result of that. And I just had never heard
Speaker 4: perfectionism turned in that direction. I immediately went like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 4: that makes sense to me.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm. Yeah. I don't know that i'd heard it
Speaker 1: talk about in that way either, but it does make
Speaker 1: perfect sense. Right, Like anything in our life that we
Speaker 1: feel like we are striving for or we feel like
Speaker 1: there is a good way versus a bad way to do,
Speaker 1: I think can elicit these feelings of perfection.
Speaker 2: So that makes sense.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you have a definition of healing, which is you say,
Speaker 4: a defined healing is the process of revising and rewriting
Speaker 4: the difficult things that have happened to us so that
Speaker 4: they become part of our story, but not the entirety
Speaker 4: of our story. I love that definition. Say more about
Speaker 4: healing through that lens.
Speaker 1: M m. You know. So, I think when something difficult
Speaker 1: happens naturally, it becomes like the center of our lives.
Speaker 1: So if there is a loss, we experience some kind
Speaker 1: of traumatic event, like we are kind of singularly focused
Speaker 1: in that place for quite some time. And I think
Speaker 1: it takes some time before you can recognize and get
Speaker 1: to a place where it is, yes, still a part
Speaker 1: of your story, but it is not the singular focus
Speaker 1: of your story. And I think that that is what
Speaker 1: a support system helps you to do. That is what
Speaker 1: therapy helps you to do. That is what all of
Speaker 1: the other coping strategies that we engage help you to do.
Speaker 1: Is to allow that thing or that experience to become
Speaker 1: a part of your story without it becoming the singular focus.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you go on to say you believe that healing,
Speaker 4: and you say, especially as it relates to the experience
Speaker 4: of black women, I'm going to generalize it from there
Speaker 4: is operating from a place of joy rather than from
Speaker 4: the pain we may have experienced. And when I read
Speaker 4: that sentence, it made me think of undercovering heroin addict
Speaker 4: and alcoholic, and it made me think of twelve step
Speaker 4: programs and how much we would laugh at the things
Speaker 4: that we had done. It was almost in that moment
Speaker 4: that you could start to see in alchemy occurring. The
Speaker 4: minute that you heard somebody else cracking up about something
Speaker 4: you were feeling deeply ashamed about, there was something that
Speaker 4: just started to shift, And so I loved calling out
Speaker 4: humor is a good indicator for me that the healing
Speaker 4: journey is underway.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, because I think that that indicates that
Speaker 1: there's some distance, right, Like, it's really hard to laugh
Speaker 1: about something that you're actively still going through and trying
Speaker 1: to like fight your way out of, versus the humor
Speaker 1: I think allows you to kind of almost look at
Speaker 1: it as if it didn't necessarily happen to you, Like
Speaker 1: you're able to have some perspective on it that I
Speaker 1: think you're just too close to when it kind of
Speaker 1: first happens.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So what do you think are some of the
Speaker 4: key things that we can do to help us revise
Speaker 4: and rewrite that story? You talked about some of the containers.
Speaker 4: We might do it in therapy or group therapy or
Speaker 4: with friends, But what are some of the tools within
Speaker 4: those containers that we use to sort of take control
Speaker 4: of that narrative?
Speaker 1: Again, So the first one you've actually already shared is
Speaker 1: actually sharing your story, right. So you talked about like
Speaker 1: the shame that we often feel when things happen, and
Speaker 1: I think that that is probably the largest barrier to
Speaker 1: us beginning the healing process, is to actually let go
Speaker 1: of the shame we're experiencing around whatever this thing is
Speaker 1: that has happened to us. And I think that that
Speaker 1: is also the thing that gets in the way of connecting,
Speaker 1: is that we feel like we are the only person
Speaker 1: who has ever felt whatever Xyz is right. And I
Speaker 1: think in groups or in friendship circles, we are able
Speaker 1: to realize like, oh my gosh, like you felt that too,
Speaker 1: Like I really identify with that, And so I think
Speaker 1: the first strategy is really to be able to share
Speaker 1: our story and let people know this thing that has
Speaker 1: happened to us or this experience that we're holding on to,
Speaker 1: so that we don't feel ashamed about it anymore. I
Speaker 1: also think when you are ready, being able to use
Speaker 1: the things that have happened in your life to help
Speaker 1: other people is also a great way to continue that
Speaker 1: healing journey. So, whether that be facilitating groups of your own,
Speaker 1: or doing speaking engagements, or writing a book or sharing
Speaker 1: on a podcast about something that has happened to you,
Speaker 1: also unlock something for other people, and I think that
Speaker 1: that is another great strategy for allowing you to continue
Speaker 1: working through the healing process.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I would say in addition to humor that was
Speaker 4: the sort of second thing that I would think about
Speaker 4: in the alchemy of healing within a recovery is as
Speaker 4: soon as you were able to start helping somebody else
Speaker 4: with it, it all of a sudden changed, right. It
Speaker 4: went from being this thing that was this bad thing.
Speaker 4: And I'm not saying it happens immediately and suddenly you're like, woh, heroinautic, wonderful. Right,
Speaker 4: That's not what I'm saying, But all of a sudden
Speaker 4: you start going, wait a second, this experience can be
Speaker 4: of benefit to others. And I think it's why twelve
Speaker 4: step programs focus so much on that element, is because
Speaker 4: that turning the attention to being able to help somebody else,
Speaker 4: not in general. I mean, helping people in general is good,
Speaker 4: but with the particular struggle you've had is what again
Speaker 4: I think is part of the alchemy there.
Speaker 1: Mmmmmmm yeah, I mean, and that's a lot of what
Speaker 1: I talk about in the book is, you know, group therapy,
Speaker 1: which twil step is not necessarily a traditional therapy group,
Speaker 1: but it is kind of governed by this idea that like,
Speaker 1: we are holding this body accountable and we are accountable
Speaker 1: to one another. And I do think that that is
Speaker 1: really important to be able to use your experiences to
Speaker 1: help other people so that you can unlock some of
Speaker 1: that shame for them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I would agree. I've been in group therapy
Speaker 4: and then I've been part of groups, you know, twelve
Speaker 4: Step being one, but other kinds, and I am a
Speaker 4: big believer in the power of groups. I would say
Speaker 4: I've gotten probably more out of group work than I
Speaker 4: have out of individual work, not that anybody necessarily has
Speaker 4: to choose. I didn't, and I kind of wanted to
Speaker 4: talk a little bit about that. And have you explained
Speaker 4: to us a little bit why you believe so much
Speaker 4: in group work and why it's so foundational to what
Speaker 4: you do.
Speaker 1: You know, Eric, you really just touched on it, Like
Speaker 1: you know, I have done both individual and group therapy
Speaker 1: as the therapist, and there are insights and breakthroughs that
Speaker 1: people get through within like the first month of group
Speaker 1: that it would take six months to a year to
Speaker 1: get to in individual therapy. And I think that again,
Speaker 1: there is something about the power of sharing your story
Speaker 1: in front of a group of people and being able
Speaker 1: to like allow them to hold that for you and
Speaker 1: feel affirmed and validated in your experiences that is just
Speaker 1: magnified because it's not just one person, there's a group
Speaker 1: of people there to experience it. I think also the
Speaker 1: shame is addressed quicker because somebody will share something. And
Speaker 1: I think the other thing is that in individual therapy
Speaker 1: you have to do a lot of talking to really
Speaker 1: get any kind of benefit out of it.
Speaker 2: Versus group, you can get a lot.
Speaker 1: Of benefit even from just being like a biastander and
Speaker 1: like listening to other people's stories, because you realize again
Speaker 1: that you are not the only one experiencing something like this. Right, so,
Speaker 1: even though the grief I experience may be related to
Speaker 1: the loss of a loved one, your grief may be
Speaker 1: related to the loss of a promotion or some other experience,
Speaker 1: we can still connect over what the grief feels like.
Speaker 1: And so I think that there are just other data
Speaker 1: points that happen in group that you just inherently can't
Speaker 1: get an individual therapy. I also think it's really really
Speaker 1: good to be able to hear feedback from other people.
Speaker 1: Right individual therapy, there's only the one therapist to give
Speaker 1: you any feedback, Versus in a group, you can get
Speaker 1: feedback from lots of different people and get in real
Speaker 1: time feedback about like how you are showing up. And
Speaker 1: I think that that is one of the things that
Speaker 1: makes groups so powerful is that you can get that
Speaker 1: real time feedback from people that you may not have
Speaker 1: even known. You find out things about yourself that I
Speaker 1: think are really really critical to how you show up
Speaker 1: in the world in ways that you can't get in
Speaker 1: other spaces.
Speaker 4: I love what you said there about not having to
Speaker 4: do any talking to be able to get healing. That
Speaker 4: really resonates. I hadn't thought of it quite in those terms,
Speaker 4: but that makes a lot of sense because you can
Speaker 4: just sit and absorb what do you think are some
Speaker 4: of the challenges or the things that get in people's
Speaker 4: way of getting the most out of group experiences. What
Speaker 4: are some of the common things that you see that
Speaker 4: people are bringing with them or their experience, and as
Speaker 4: part of that might limit the effectiveness.
Speaker 1: You know, I think it's hard to outline anything because
Speaker 1: that is also what makes group effective. Right. So my
Speaker 1: first thought was, you know, groups typically mimic our family system, right,
Speaker 1: and so if you come from a family where there
Speaker 1: was a favorite child, or like you were the black
Speaker 1: sheep of the family, likely that is going to be
Speaker 1: recreated in the group system, which is exactly what we
Speaker 1: want to happen. You know, Like a large part of
Speaker 1: what governs group is this idea that wherever you go,
Speaker 1: there you are. And so we know that we see
Speaker 1: the world not as it is, but as we are.
Speaker 1: And so if you are somebody who struggles with like, oh,
Speaker 1: I wasn't the favorite child in the family, You're likely
Speaker 1: going to project some of that in group and see
Speaker 1: somebody else as like the favorite member of the group.
Speaker 1: And so it is when you are able to say
Speaker 1: that thing out loud that the healing really begins, right,
Speaker 1: because you are now enacting these same patterns that are
Speaker 1: likely interfering with your life outside of the group. You know,
Speaker 1: if anything that gets in the way of your effectiveness
Speaker 1: and group is not being opened to the process, right
Speaker 1: and like not kind of participating. So even though you
Speaker 1: may not want to talk initially, you can't be like
Speaker 1: a non speaking member of the group forever, right, Eventually
Speaker 1: you will feel comfortable enough to want to share, to
Speaker 1: connect with other people, otherwise you'll likely get called out
Speaker 1: right like other people will not feel comfortable that you
Speaker 1: are just there kind of sitting and not participating, which again,
Speaker 1: is all a part of the process.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I think that the very things
Speaker 4: that make it hard are some of the things that
Speaker 4: make it really beneficial, and I think that knowing that
Speaker 4: can be really helpful. You know, when I've led some
Speaker 4: groups from our community in the past, I'll talk about
Speaker 4: the fact that when you end up in a group,
Speaker 4: you almost immediately begin judging the other people and judging
Speaker 4: yourself because that's what we do as socially evolved creatures.
Speaker 4: You can't turn it off, and you can see that
Speaker 4: it's happening though, and observe and go, oh, look at that,
Speaker 4: isn't that interesting? I agree with you. I think it's
Speaker 4: just what somebody who's helping facilitate a group ideally well
Speaker 4: will help you to hold that discomfort without running away exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I think that group is the place
Speaker 1: where it is okay to say some of those internal
Speaker 1: thoughts that we're having, right, because you're right, like, you
Speaker 1: can't necessarily turn off the judgment or the observations that
Speaker 1: you're making about other people in yourself, and group is
Speaker 1: the place where you're actually wanting to give voice to
Speaker 1: that thing so that you can figure out like, oh,
Speaker 1: I do this in other areas of my life and
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that, but being able to say it
Speaker 1: in group really gives voice to that and lets you
Speaker 1: work through it.
Speaker 4: What sort of programs do you offer through your community
Speaker 4: and your website for women of color who are looking
Speaker 4: to get some of this benefit.
Speaker 1: So we do have a Sister Circle community which is
Speaker 1: like our peer support community as a part of therapy
Speaker 1: for black girls.
Speaker 2: So it's not a therapy group.
Speaker 1: It is more having conversations about different things, offering support
Speaker 1: to one another. Lots of funny vents, lots of but
Speaker 1: mostly virtual. But we're also looking to expand into more
Speaker 1: in real life kinds of experiences because people really want that.
Speaker 1: So that's just a great way for people to connect
Speaker 1: with people all across the world.
Speaker 4: Got it, So, listener, consider this. You're halfway through the
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Speaker 4: our good Wolves together. Let's move from groups to a
Speaker 4: smaller unit of well. I guess people that you talk
Speaker 4: about in the Book of Fair Amount, which is friendship,
Speaker 4: talk to me about why you see friendship is so valuable.
Speaker 1: I think it's just really the foundation of much of
Speaker 1: our lives. You know, I think we are not meant
Speaker 1: to be individual in this thing through going through life,
Speaker 1: right Like, we are social creatures, as you mentioned, and
Speaker 1: so it is just really helpful to have a support system,
Speaker 1: a group of people or one person, you know how
Speaker 1: big the group is, who support you, who you can
Speaker 1: lean on going through life. And I think it just
Speaker 1: makes things much richer. It makes things a lot easier
Speaker 1: when you can count on other people and when other
Speaker 1: people can count on you. And I think the pandemic
Speaker 1: illuminated this in so many ways.
Speaker 2: Like I think many of us.
Speaker 1: Took for granted how important connection was to us until
Speaker 1: like we couldn't really do it and had to figure
Speaker 1: out all these other ways by virtual game nights and
Speaker 1: all these other things that we used to try to
Speaker 1: really stay connected with other people who we maybe were
Speaker 1: just kind of passing or you know, didn't really spend
Speaker 1: any intentional time with.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about in friendship. You say, why is
Speaker 4: it that friendships allow us to exist in this way
Speaker 4: that is more open and relaxed, And you say, much
Speaker 4: of it's likely related to the fact that not much
Speaker 4: attention or pressure is placed on what friendships look like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, you know, there's so many resources eric
Speaker 1: about like how to be a great romantic partner, like
Speaker 1: how to be a great parent, Like there are all
Speaker 1: of these books, resources, podcasts, and you know, thankfully there's
Speaker 1: more I think coming out around friendship now, but that largely,
Speaker 1: I would say, is in the last like five to
Speaker 1: seven years, And so we just don't have the wealth
Speaker 1: of information about like how to do friendship well that
Speaker 1: we have for other relationships in our lives. And I
Speaker 1: think friendship has largely been relegated to this like second
Speaker 1: tier kind of relationship in our lives, right, Like romance
Speaker 1: is important, parenting is really important, being a good son
Speaker 1: or daughter, like all of those things have primary importance,
Speaker 1: and it feels like friendship is this kind of thing
Speaker 1: that like just exists kind of along the way, when
Speaker 1: friendship really is, in a lot of ways a central
Speaker 1: relationship in our lives. I think in friendship we learn
Speaker 1: so much about ourselves. We realize that there are expectations
Speaker 1: we have in relationships that we can give voice to.
Speaker 1: And so I'm really really excited that we are paying
Speaker 1: more attention to our friends, because I think that there's
Speaker 1: just so much great material there for how we respond
Speaker 1: to friends and how friends respond to us.
Speaker 4: Do we run the risk of putting the pressure into
Speaker 4: the relationship that we have around romantic or parenting if
Speaker 4: we focus too much on it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that that's a risk with anything, right,
Speaker 1: And I think the conversation really has to be like,
Speaker 1: here are some things for you to explore, versus like
Speaker 1: this is the way to be a good friend, right,
Speaker 1: because we know that there's not one answer to any
Speaker 1: relationship in our lives. But I think the plethora of
Speaker 1: resources and conversations only does well right now as we
Speaker 1: continue to explore what friendship means in our lives.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you're exposed to this same
Speaker 4: thing and see it everywhere in the mental health and
Speaker 4: wellness space, which is it's become pretty clear that, you know,
Speaker 4: perhaps the single most important contributor to overall well being
Speaker 4: is relationships. Just seems like that is being shown again
Speaker 4: and again in studies, and I think I think it's
Speaker 4: all of it to me. For me, it's been a
Speaker 4: matter of seeing that romantic partnerships count, family counts, friendship counts,
Speaker 4: groups count, They're all part of that and they all matter.
Speaker 2: M Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Esther peerrel talks about this in her work, how historically
Speaker 1: we have relied much more on a village to get
Speaker 1: our needs met, right, Like there were friends that you
Speaker 1: you know, kind of did your chores with, and then
Speaker 1: friends you hung out with for pleasure, and you know,
Speaker 1: then maybe you're romantic partner, and at some point, like
Speaker 1: all of that kind of became focused on our romantic partner,
Speaker 1: right like that this is the person who meets all
Speaker 1: of these needs. And how unsustainable that is. And so
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that we are exploring this idea that
Speaker 1: like we do actually need a village, we do need
Speaker 1: a variety of people to meet different needs in our lives.
Speaker 4: Do you have tips for people about making new friendships
Speaker 4: later in life?
Speaker 2: I think this is so important.
Speaker 1: This question comes up quite a lot because I think,
Speaker 1: you know, when you're young or like in college, like,
Speaker 1: it's kind of like these ready made options for you
Speaker 1: to develop friends, right, But I think when you're older
Speaker 1: and kind of in the workforce, it takes a lot
Speaker 1: more work. And so one of the things that I
Speaker 1: suggest for people is to look around in the background
Speaker 1: of your life to see if there is someone who
Speaker 1: could move to the foreground with a little bit of effort.
Speaker 1: So is there somebody who you kind of see in
Speaker 1: the carpool line when you're dropping your kids off for work,
Speaker 1: or somebody who sits next to you in a yoga
Speaker 1: class and you kind of exchange pleasantries, but it's never
Speaker 1: gone further. Can you take a step to see if
Speaker 1: this could be a more important relationship? So can you
Speaker 1: open yourself up to say, hey, do you want to
Speaker 1: grab a smoothie after yoga? Or hey do you want
Speaker 1: to grab breakfast after we drop the kids off. Now,
Speaker 1: the thing that gets in our way is that nobody
Speaker 1: likes rejection, right like nobody wants to be told no.
Speaker 1: But the only way that we can get closer to
Speaker 1: these opportunities for connection is, unfortunately, to open ourselves up
Speaker 1: to a little bit of rejection. But I think that
Speaker 1: for a lot of us there are people kind of
Speaker 1: just in the background who could become more important, right
Speaker 1: and not necessarily like your new best friend, though that
Speaker 1: could happen, but it could become somebody that is important
Speaker 1: for you, that can become a part of your support circle. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I want to also add eric. I think another great
Speaker 1: way of course to find people who can become a
Speaker 1: part of your circle is to engage in the kinds
Speaker 1: of things that you are interested in, and then you
Speaker 1: likely meet other people who are also interested in that. Right,
Speaker 1: So taking a new class at your local college or university,
Speaker 1: signing up for some kind of meetup group, or getting
Speaker 1: involved with a faith community, like, all of those are
Speaker 1: great opportunities for you to just meet other people who
Speaker 1: have similar interests, which is often a way that friendship begins.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, you talk about something called self silencing. What
Speaker 4: does that mean?
Speaker 1: Yeah, so self silencing really refers to this idea that, like,
Speaker 1: we make small of our needs and our desires so
Speaker 1: that we don't put it on other people. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to pretend as if I don't want this thing,
Speaker 1: or I don't desire this thing, or I am going
Speaker 1: to kind of make it seem as if I'm like
Speaker 1: not high maintenance, because I don't want to burden you
Speaker 1: by this idea or burden you with the idea that
Speaker 1: I need something. And we often do this quite a
Speaker 1: lot in our relationships, particularly as women, as much of
Speaker 1: our socialization has taught us to kind of put other
Speaker 1: people's needs ahead of our own, And.
Speaker 4: So what are ways of noticing that that's actually what's
Speaker 4: happening and then working with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I think if you take account of how
Speaker 1: many and not in a scoreboard kind of way, but
Speaker 1: like just paying attention to when other people ask you
Speaker 1: for things versus how much you actually ask other people
Speaker 1: for things.
Speaker 2: For a lot of people, that will be imbalanced.
Speaker 1: So kind of just paying attention, I think again is
Speaker 1: the first step of you know, noticing this for yourself,
Speaker 1: and then again I think giving voice to it and
Speaker 1: like changing that behavior slowly but shortly.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So, again not in a tip for tech kind of way,
Speaker 1: but if you actually don't have the bandwidth to bring
Speaker 1: somebody to the airport or to take on this new
Speaker 1: task at work, like being vocal about that and just
Speaker 1: allowing the system to change around you. Because once people
Speaker 1: are familiar and comfortable with you being the person that
Speaker 1: always says yes, it can take a little bit of
Speaker 1: work for that system to readjust right. But it has
Speaker 1: to if you change the way that you are interacting.
Speaker 1: And so I think making small changes is a great
Speaker 1: way to kind of get out of that habit of
Speaker 1: self silencing.
Speaker 4: Right, And it's always so uncomfortable when we start to
Speaker 4: make those changes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's important to note, Eric that
Speaker 1: just because you're uncomfortable doesn't mean that you're heading in
Speaker 1: the wrong dive.
Speaker 2: It just means that there are some changes.
Speaker 1: Growing pains are part of most experiences that change in
Speaker 1: our lives, and so people, I think often get uncomfortable
Speaker 1: and then that signals to them like, oh, I must
Speaker 1: be doing a bad thing, when really it likely means
Speaker 1: that you're moving in the right direction.
Speaker 4: Right, right. It does seem that the way that we
Speaker 4: respond when we're uncomfortable is to retreat, and knowing that
Speaker 4: that's going to occur helps us to stay with whatever
Speaker 4: changes we're trying to make.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: Our culture has started to use a phrase so much
Speaker 4: that it's almost ubiquitous and tends to almost mean nothing
Speaker 4: because it's used in so many different ways. And that
Speaker 4: term is holding space. But you talk about it in
Speaker 4: a more specific way. What do you mean by holding space?
Speaker 1: You know, Eric, I have to laugh because I hate that,
Speaker 1: like holding space has gotten this like, oh, it kind
Speaker 1: of means nothing, because in my mind, it is one
Speaker 1: of the most powerful things that we.
Speaker 2: Can do for one another.
Speaker 1: And so when I'm talking about holding space, I am
Speaker 1: talking about being able to provide a container for somebody
Speaker 1: to put something in, right and figuratively of course, right,
Speaker 1: So when I'm talking about holding space for one another,
Speaker 1: it means that I'm creating an environment with you where
Speaker 1: you do not feel judged or the judgment feels minimal,
Speaker 1: that you can share with me something that's very intimate,
Speaker 1: very personal, may be very shameful for you, and you
Speaker 1: can trust that I can hold that for you until
Speaker 1: you're ready to pick it back up or as we
Speaker 1: kind of make sense of it together. But it really
Speaker 1: means providing a figurative container for somebody to share something
Speaker 1: that's pretty personal.
Speaker 4: That's pretty concrete and important.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and again it really is the foundation of connection, right,
Speaker 1: Like that is what is most meaningful in relationships. And
Speaker 1: I talk about this also in the book that conflict
Speaker 1: often going back to our earlier conversation of things feeling uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: conflict often happens in friendships and other relationships, and it
Speaker 1: often signals to people like, oh, this is too hard,
Speaker 1: or like I don't want to do this, but conflict
Speaker 1: when you can actually navigate it together actually increases the
Speaker 1: intimacy in a relationship. So I think people often think
Speaker 1: if we are fighting or there's something we.
Speaker 2: Don't agree about, this may mean the end of the relationship.
Speaker 1: But really, if you can navigate it together and realize like, okay,
Speaker 1: like this was a bumpy roe, but we like traveled
Speaker 1: it together, it often unlocks this new level of intimacy
Speaker 1: in relationships and friendships that I think is really really important.
Speaker 4: That is a lesson. I feel like I have spent
Speaker 4: a lifetime trying to learn and probably will spend the
Speaker 4: rest of my lifetime learning. I think given you know,
Speaker 4: family dynamics, where conflict was always destructive, it never went
Speaker 4: anywhere positive, And I think maybe something personality wise, like
Speaker 4: I know that and I have to talk myself through
Speaker 4: that nearly every single time that conflict is on the horizon,
Speaker 4: which is, oh, not saying something here is actually going
Speaker 4: to be worse for this relationship, for this dynamic than
Speaker 4: actually saying something. But it does not come easy.
Speaker 1: And no, and I love that you're talking about like
Speaker 1: having to talk yourself through it, right, because I think
Speaker 1: that that is the case for a lot of us,
Speaker 1: Like most of us were probably not raised in spaces
Speaker 1: where like conflict was taught that it's a good thing,
Speaker 1: and like we can disagree in healthy ways. Like I
Speaker 1: think a lot of us are figuring that out as
Speaker 1: adults and maybe trying to teach, you know, the young
Speaker 1: people in our lives something different.
Speaker 2: But I think a lot of us struggle.
Speaker 1: With that, And so it's okay to struggle with it, right,
Speaker 1: It is okay to not do it right the first time, Like,
Speaker 1: there are often things that happen that will keep happening, right, Like,
Speaker 1: so I think people will often feel like, oh, I
Speaker 1: didn't say something that one time, but usually these things
Speaker 1: repeat themselves, and so you always have another opportunity to
Speaker 1: do a better job the next time, or to go
Speaker 1: back and say, hey, we had this conversation on Tuesday,
Speaker 1: and I'm still feeling a little unsettled about something. I
Speaker 1: wonder if I could talk with you about it, right, Like,
Speaker 1: So you don't even always have to address it in
Speaker 1: the moment. It is really about just addressing it in general.
Speaker 1: That is really important.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that certainly seems to be the case that
Speaker 4: these things, like you said, often you get a second
Speaker 4: or third or fourth try, because if it's enough in
Speaker 4: my case to bother me enough that I probably should
Speaker 4: say something, it's probably not a one time thing. I mean,
Speaker 4: I'm not saying that's always true, but it's often the
Speaker 4: repetitious nature of it that starts to make it something
Speaker 4: where I'm like, oh, this is really starting to bother.
Speaker 1: Me exactly exactly, especially if it's like with people who
Speaker 1: are you know, figures in our lives, right, so whether
Speaker 1: that be a friend, a partner, a parent, like, we
Speaker 1: get multiple opportunities to interact with these people, and so
Speaker 1: it's likely going to come up again.
Speaker 4: I know that one of the things it's a disclaimer
Speaker 4: you start your show with, which is, hey, this show
Speaker 4: is not a substitute for working with a license mental
Speaker 4: health professional. So I'm giving that caveat since you give it,
Speaker 4: and a lot of people either don't have access to
Speaker 4: therapy or are not at a point where they're ready
Speaker 4: to do that, and yet they might be wrestling with
Speaker 4: different things. And I'm just going to pick a couple
Speaker 4: common things that people might describe and see if there's
Speaker 4: any tips that you tend to recommend to people. Again,
Speaker 4: not in substitute of getting more help, but maybe from
Speaker 4: a do it your self perspective a little bit, and
Speaker 4: the first would be anxiety. I'm curious if you could
Speaker 4: first maybe delineate for us the difference between a general
Speaker 4: nervousness about the way certain things are going to turn
Speaker 4: out that I think is just part of the human
Speaker 4: condition and what starts to become anxiety.
Speaker 1: That's a great question, Eric, So everybody experiences anxiety. Anxiety
Speaker 1: disorders are the most diagnosed mental health concerns. So I
Speaker 1: want people to know that if you struggle with anxiety,
Speaker 1: whether it is a normal level or something that is diagnosable,
Speaker 1: you are in good company because all of.
Speaker 2: Us have anxiety.
Speaker 1: But the thing that differentiates, like you need a little
Speaker 1: bit of anxiety to like get you off the sofa
Speaker 1: when you know you should be like writing a paper
Speaker 1: or recording a podcast episode. Right, Like, there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of anxiety in our lives that is necessary, But
Speaker 1: when it crosses the line to interfering with other things
Speaker 1: in your life is when it can become concerning.
Speaker 2: So if the.
Speaker 1: Level of anxiety you're experiencing stops you from interacting with
Speaker 1: people in your life who you really want to be
Speaker 1: interacting with, it forces you to feel so uncomfortable that
Speaker 1: you can't leave your house or you're having difficulty just
Speaker 1: operating in your daily life. That is when I think
Speaker 1: that is an area of concern and something that may
Speaker 1: require some additional attention.
Speaker 4: So, assuming that we're not into anxiety disorder, we're just
Speaker 4: in the normal anxiety, which would range from very little
Speaker 4: to you know, perhaps amount that makes us fairly uncomfortable.
Speaker 4: What are some ways of working with that?
Speaker 1: So one of the most helpful things I think for
Speaker 1: people can be to play this game with themselves called
Speaker 1: and what next? Right? So, for a lot of us,
Speaker 1: anxiety is about like this worst possible scenario happening. So
Speaker 1: if I do this thing, then this thing will happen,
Speaker 1: and so asking yourself and so what like if that
Speaker 1: thing happens, and then what if you play that out
Speaker 1: enough you realize you get to a point where it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I get to this worst case scenario in the world
Speaker 1: does not end. And so I think being able to
Speaker 1: play that out and like figure out, Okay, what resources
Speaker 1: do I need at each of these steps to support
Speaker 1: myself if this awful thing happens can really help people
Speaker 1: to like relax a little, maybe not completely, but when
Speaker 1: you realize like, Okay, even if this worst possible thing happens,
Speaker 1: I will be okay. I have people in my life
Speaker 1: I can call on, I have resources to get support
Speaker 1: with whatever it is. I think that can really help
Speaker 1: people to let go.
Speaker 2: Of some of that anxiety.
Speaker 1: Also, grounding techniques really help with anxiety. So grounding techniques
Speaker 1: are helping you to focus in the moment, because anxiety.
Speaker 2: Is often powered by.
Speaker 1: Future worries that we have. But if you are focused
Speaker 1: on this moment, I can feel my feet in my carpet,
Speaker 1: I can hear the clock ticking in my room, that
Speaker 1: I am focused only in this present moment, which does
Speaker 1: not allow my brain to then worry about, oh what
Speaker 1: if I get in an accident on the interstate right,
Speaker 1: And so grounding techniques that help you to stay connected
Speaker 1: to the present moment can be really helpful for that
Speaker 1: anxiety as well.
Speaker 4: I love the and then what idea because it sort
Speaker 4: of makes us get a little more specific and move
Speaker 4: out of this generalized cloud of fear into something more
Speaker 4: specific where either we will realize, well, that's really pretty
Speaker 4: unlikely going to get that far, or to your point,
Speaker 4: what would I do if I could. I mean, my
Speaker 4: favorite strategy for anxiety is simply reminding myself that whatever
Speaker 4: it is, I will be able to cope with it,
Speaker 4: just reminding myself of that simple fact, like you have
Speaker 4: the resources, you will be able to cope with this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, even if it feels really difficult, right, Like, I
Speaker 1: think that that can be helpful because you're right, Like,
Speaker 1: it often feels very nebulous in our heads, but we
Speaker 1: get it on paper or we do this exercise with ourselves,
Speaker 1: we realize, like, yes, that might be bad, and I
Speaker 1: also have all of these things that could support me
Speaker 1: through some difficult thing happening.
Speaker 4: Yep. The grounding techniques that you're talking about, do you
Speaker 4: find that people need to gain some amount of skill
Speaker 4: at using them so that in moments when they are
Speaker 4: anxious they're more helpful? Because I certainly know if I'm
Speaker 4: at a really high level of emotional energy, I might
Speaker 4: try and pay attention to the clock ticking, and that's
Speaker 4: going to lack for like one tick of the clock
Speaker 4: and then I'm back in it. And so do you
Speaker 4: recommend that people practice these things at other times? Do
Speaker 4: you recommend that they stick with them for a certain
Speaker 4: duration of time, like, how do we make them useful
Speaker 4: in these moments when our emotional system is fairly revved up.
Speaker 1: Hmm, that's such a great point. So I do typically
Speaker 1: recommend that these be things that you practice when you're
Speaker 1: not activated emotionally, so that when you do need them
Speaker 1: that it is a bit of second nature. And there
Speaker 1: are so many different grounding techniques that you do need
Speaker 1: to do a little bit of research, a little bit
Speaker 1: of homework to find the ones that work best for you,
Speaker 1: because again, when you are kind of feeling really activated
Speaker 1: and emotionally heightened, it's harder for your brain to kind
Speaker 1: of think through like okay, what was that YouTube video?
Speaker 1: You know, So you want to do a little bit
Speaker 1: of preparation on the front end so that when you
Speaker 1: need this toolbox, so to speak, it's kind of readily
Speaker 1: available to you and you are able to access it
Speaker 1: kind of on auto pilot.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I had a meditation teacher who used to say,
Speaker 4: practice now while you can, for the times that you can't.
Speaker 4: And I just thought that was a really useful sort
Speaker 4: of instruction, which was the time will come where these
Speaker 4: techniques would be really useful. But if you haven't practiced them,
Speaker 4: they're not going to help that much, but it's never
Speaker 4: too late to.
Speaker 1: Start right exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: So I'd like to wrap us up by asking you
Speaker 4: a little bit about what can the wider community do
Speaker 4: to support mental health initiatives specifically tailored for black women
Speaker 4: or for people of color. What can those of us
Speaker 4: that are not part of that community do to support
Speaker 4: the type of work that you're doing to make these
Speaker 4: things more accessible and less stigmatized.
Speaker 1: I think sharing the resources help a ton, So just
Speaker 1: allowing more people to know about the resources, I think
Speaker 1: goes a very long way, because you never know who
Speaker 1: needs the resource or who knows somebody who needs the
Speaker 1: resource be able to share the directory, share about our
Speaker 1: sister circle, I think goes a long way. Also, funding,
Speaker 1: you know, so if you are in a position to
Speaker 1: be able to donate to different organizations. There's an organization
Speaker 1: called the Loveland Foundation, started by Rachel Cargo that does
Speaker 1: incredible work in actually providing vouchers for black women and
Speaker 1: other women of color to be able to go to therapy.
Speaker 1: Because we've already talked about how that may not be
Speaker 1: an option for people, So supporting initiatives like that, I
Speaker 1: think is really really important. But I think again sharing
Speaker 1: goes a really long way. And being able to kind
Speaker 1: of fight trolls when necessary, right, so not necessarily on
Speaker 1: social media posts, but you know, there may be some
Speaker 1: trolling even in your real life of people who say like, well,
Speaker 1: why do we need this thing, or like oh, this
Speaker 1: is silly, Like we all have mental health to take
Speaker 1: care of. Yes, that is the case, and like yes,
Speaker 1: and and there is a specific need for these kinds
Speaker 1: of resources for people who have largely been left out
Speaker 1: of the large conversation. So being able to talk about
Speaker 1: the importance of it and really add the validity to
Speaker 1: people who may be questioning, I think also really helps
Speaker 1: our work.
Speaker 4: So listener and thinking about all that and the other
Speaker 4: great wisdom from today's episode. If you're going to isolate
Speaker 4: just one top insight that you're taking away, what would
Speaker 4: it be, Not your top ten, not the top five,
Speaker 4: just one? What is it? Think about it? Got it?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 4: I ask you, what's one tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little
Speaker 4: thing you can do today to put it in practice,
Speaker 4: or maybe just take a baby step towards it. Remember,
Speaker 4: little by little, a little becomes a lot. Profound change
Speaker 4: happens as a result of aggregated tiny actions, not massive
Speaker 4: heroic effort. If you're not already on our good Wolf
Speaker 4: Reminder SMS list, I'd highly recommend it as a tool
Speaker 4: you can leverage to remind you to take those vital
Speaker 4: baby steps forward. You can get on there at oneufeed
Speaker 4: dot net slash sms. It's totally free, and once you're
Speaker 4: on there, I'll send you a couple text messages a
Speaker 4: week with little reminders and nudges. Here's what I recently
Speaker 4: shared to give you an idea of the type of
Speaker 4: stuff I send. Keep practicing even if it seems hopeless.
Speaker 4: Don't strive for perfection, aim for consistency, and no matter what,
Speaker 4: keep showing up for yourself. That was a great gem
Speaker 4: from recent guests Light Watkins. And if you're on the
Speaker 4: fence about joining, remember it's totally free and easy to unsubscribe.
Speaker 4: If you want to get in, I'd love to have
Speaker 4: you there. Just go to oneu feed dot net slash sms.
Speaker 4: All right, back to it, Doctor Joey, thank you so
Speaker 4: much for coming on. I've really enjoyed talking with you.
Speaker 4: We'll have links in the show notes to all the
Speaker 4: resources that you just mentioned. And it was a really
Speaker 4: nice to meet you and really nice to get to talk.
Speaker 1: Likewise, thank you so much for having me Eric.
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