WEBVTT - REPLAY: A Therapy Session with Dr. Dan Siegel

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Hi, oh hello Catherine, Hello Chelsea.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, good afternoon, everybody. Good morning.

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<v Speaker 3>We have some very exciting news. Dear Chelsea.

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<v Speaker 2>The podcast you are currently listening to has been named

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<v Speaker 2>a Webby Honoree in the podcast general series Advice and

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<v Speaker 2>how To category.

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<v Speaker 4>Woo whooo.

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<v Speaker 3>Congratulations, congratulations Chelsea.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh my god.

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<v Speaker 2>Earning the distinction of Webby Honoree, that's what it's called,

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<v Speaker 2>as recognized by the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences,

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<v Speaker 2>is a significant achievement, granted to only the top twenty

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<v Speaker 2>percent of more than fourteen three hundred projects submitted in

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<v Speaker 2>this year's competition.

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<v Speaker 3>So that is a very exciting little award.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh my god, how I love it. I love

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<v Speaker 2>getting nominated for awards. It's the whole new thing for me.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah. I mean, it's just it's a little bit of recognition.

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<v Speaker 4>It's kind of fun.

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<v Speaker 1>I love an atta boy like I love a pat

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<v Speaker 1>on the back. So this is just a wonderful way

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<v Speaker 1>to get one of those.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, yes, I agree, thank you very much.

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<v Speaker 5>Yes.

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<v Speaker 4>What else, Catherine, Well, I'm wearing my Dear Chelsea hat.

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<v Speaker 3>From merches In.

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<v Speaker 2>You guys are Dear Chelsea merches In It's available on

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<v Speaker 2>my website at Chelseahandler dot com.

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<v Speaker 4>It's very exciting. Oh I should also tell you this.

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<v Speaker 1>So the very first day that I wore my Dear

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<v Speaker 1>Chelsea Lemon yellow T shirt, I went for a hike.

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<v Speaker 1>My husband and I were hiking in Griffith Park and

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<v Speaker 1>a woman came up to me and she pointed at

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<v Speaker 1>my shirt and she goes, I have that in my

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<v Speaker 1>ears right now.

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<v Speaker 4>And I was really confused.

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<v Speaker 3>And then my.

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<v Speaker 1>Husband was like, Catherine, she said, she's listening to your

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<v Speaker 1>like this podcast right now, the one that's on your shirt.

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<v Speaker 3>And I was like, oh, that's cute. It was very

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<v Speaker 3>I wonder why you were so confused.

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<v Speaker 1>I was, well, it was like the you're in. It

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<v Speaker 1>was like, that's in my ears right now. I was like, wait,

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<v Speaker 1>I don't understand. But she had earbuds in and it

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<v Speaker 1>was a whole thing.

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<v Speaker 3>But it was very cute. Well that was cute. I

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<v Speaker 3>love that people listen to it.

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<v Speaker 2>I always forget, you know, you leave here and then

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<v Speaker 2>you get that you like, even did a podcast, right

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<v Speaker 2>So it's nice when people say, oh my god, I

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<v Speaker 2>love your podcast, or I've called in or I've written

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<v Speaker 2>in somebody tried to hand me their submission the other day,

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<v Speaker 2>so I got to get that to you as soon

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<v Speaker 2>as possible. Just so everybody knows, Catherine handles the submissions.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, and there, how do you submit again.

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<v Speaker 1>Dear Chelsea Project at gmail dot com. Don't send it

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<v Speaker 1>to Dear Chelsea. That's a very sweet woman who's not us.

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<v Speaker 2>And who's obviously annoyed by getting all of our emails,

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<v Speaker 2>but she's.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, I feel bad, I want to make sure that

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<v Speaker 1>these get to you. So that's Dear Chelsea Project at

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<v Speaker 1>gmail dot com. And yeah, I read every single one

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<v Speaker 1>that comes in so and actually I have received several

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<v Speaker 1>emails about our Amy Schumer episode, and there was one

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<v Speaker 1>specific little thing that was mentioned on the episode that

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<v Speaker 1>we wanted a lot of people wanted to make sure

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<v Speaker 1>that we correct it, okay, which you know we're here

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<v Speaker 1>to learn too, So I think that's great, Ashley says,

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<v Speaker 1>Dear Chelsea. I love, love love your show guests. You

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<v Speaker 1>have the topics you cover. It helps so many people

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<v Speaker 1>and I love listening every week. I'm writing to respectfully

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<v Speaker 1>ask you for a correction to your episode with Amy Schumer.

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<v Speaker 1>It was educational and vulnerable and your conversation on the

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<v Speaker 1>autistic community and later in life diagnoses will change people's

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<v Speaker 1>lives for the better. In the episode, it was mentioned

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<v Speaker 1>that autism can't be diagnosed until around age five or six,

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<v Speaker 1>which is incorrect. I'm a speech and language pathologist who

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<v Speaker 1>works with children age two to fourteen, many of whom

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<v Speaker 1>are autistic. You can seek diagnosis as early as age two.

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<v Speaker 1>Early intervention is key for many families, and often the

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<v Speaker 1>stigma of autism keeps families from getting a diagnosis until

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<v Speaker 1>much later. My goal in my practice is always to

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<v Speaker 1>put children in their families first, and with all the

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<v Speaker 1>advocacy Amy does, I want everyone to be armed with

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<v Speaker 1>the most accurate information possible. Thanks for your consideration, Ashley.

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<v Speaker 2>Goddamn it, Amy, goddamn it, Amy, Why is she always

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<v Speaker 2>getting me in trouble? Come on getting people in trouble.

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<v Speaker 2>And then I met Amy Schumer. Okay, so you can

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<v Speaker 2>get diagnosis early. As to thank you for your letter,

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<v Speaker 2>thank you for your correction. We appreciate that, and yes,

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<v Speaker 2>we want to get out accurate information to everybody.

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<v Speaker 4>Absolutely, early intervention, guys.

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<v Speaker 3>Early intervention. I wish somebody would have intervened with me earlier.

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<v Speaker 2>Than they did, because I really just I could have

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<v Speaker 2>used some sort of diagnosis when I was younger. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't know what my diagnosis is, but I could have

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<v Speaker 2>used some help.

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<v Speaker 1>I feel like we're as we have expanding conversations about

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<v Speaker 1>everything in the public domain.

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<v Speaker 4>There are so many things that I'm like, oh, wait,

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<v Speaker 4>I have this.

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<v Speaker 1>I have that, Like it's because of podcasts and one

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<v Speaker 1>in particular that I was like, Oh, I have anxiety.

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<v Speaker 4>That's what that feeling is.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, we're actually knowing the difference between anxiety and like,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, anxiety encompasses so many different things, like being

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<v Speaker 2>annoyed with people is anxiety I always had. Anxiety is like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>social anxiety and inability to so or perform or go

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<v Speaker 2>out or stage fright like that kind of thing.

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<v Speaker 3>And it's actually much more nuanced than that.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a whole spectrum of anxiety that you can

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<v Speaker 2>suffer from, and it can present in many different ways

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<v Speaker 2>in different people. So, you know, eating is anxiety sometimes,

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<v Speaker 2>doing drugs is anxiety sometimes, or a celebration.

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<v Speaker 4>Can be either. Chelsea, do you have any tour dates

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<v Speaker 4>that you want to come?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah? Yes, I added a show in Saratoga. Saratoga Mountain Winery.

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<v Speaker 2>I added a second show in Nashville. Nashville is where

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<v Speaker 2>I am shooting my next special, so there will be

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<v Speaker 2>two shows now in Nashville. And I am also performing

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<v Speaker 2>at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. Everyone

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<v Speaker 2>has been asking for Montreal dates to all of my

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<v Speaker 2>Canadian friends. That is July twenty eighth, i will be

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<v Speaker 2>at the Montreal Just for Laughs. I'm hosting a gala,

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<v Speaker 2>and then I also have another I have two dates

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<v Speaker 2>in Vancouver Friday August twelfth to show in Vancouver and

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<v Speaker 2>then Saturday, August thirteenth and Sunday August fourteenth. Tickets are

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<v Speaker 2>available for Calgary in Alberta. And I'm also adding a

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<v Speaker 2>show Saturday October eighth in Niagara Falls, which is Ontario.

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<v Speaker 2>So those are my Canadian dates coming up. And then

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<v Speaker 2>this week I'm starting back on tour. So Thursday, April fourteenth,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in Cedar Rapids. Then the fifteenth I'm in Des

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<v Speaker 2>Moines and I'm coming to Omaha.

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<v Speaker 3>Nebraska on Saturday night.

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<v Speaker 2>So and then the week after that is Louisville, Kentucky,

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<v Speaker 2>Saint Louis, Missouri, and two shows in Kansas City. So

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<v Speaker 2>check Chelseahandler dot com for your tickets. I'm back on tour,

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<v Speaker 2>vaccinated in Horny. Let's get down to business.

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<v Speaker 4>It's just great.

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<v Speaker 3>It's just great. I'm just back from Vegas.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm looking a little peckish or peaked, one of

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<v Speaker 2>those words.

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<v Speaker 3>They both apply. Actually, I'm hungry and tired.

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<v Speaker 2>We went to Whistler to celebrate my friend and his birthday.

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<v Speaker 2>That was Saturday, very fun. Sunday night was the Grammys

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<v Speaker 2>in Vegas, which we flew out to with all of

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<v Speaker 2>our friends from Whistler.

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<v Speaker 3>Then we celebrated Joe's birthday. After the Grammys. We had

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<v Speaker 3>a after.

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<v Speaker 2>Party for him with his DJ terb his one of

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<v Speaker 2>his besties DJing and it was so much fun. And

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<v Speaker 2>then we did it again Monday, and then we did

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<v Speaker 2>it again Tuesday, and we had activities like dune bugging

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<v Speaker 2>in the desert for all of our guests. We had

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<v Speaker 2>about seventy five people there. So I am fresh off

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<v Speaker 2>of a flight from Vegas.

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<v Speaker 3>I just landed. I'm here today.

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<v Speaker 2>And talking about to talk to my to our very

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<v Speaker 2>special guest for our final episode, which is our season

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<v Speaker 2>finale of season two. We'll be back shortly. We won't

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<v Speaker 2>take that long of a break. But our finale guest

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<v Speaker 2>is none other than my psychiatrist, doctor Dan Siegel. It's

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<v Speaker 2>very exciting.

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<v Speaker 1>It's very exciting to have him on, and he's going

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<v Speaker 1>to help us with a couple of sort of trickier

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<v Speaker 1>questions that yes' had because I.

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<v Speaker 3>Obviously I want to explain to all of my listeners.

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<v Speaker 2>Obviously I can help with many things, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>I know a lot about a lot of things, and

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<v Speaker 2>I also know that I don't know a lot about

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<v Speaker 2>some important things. So when there is heavier advice to

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<v Speaker 2>be given where we do need a professional, I obviously

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<v Speaker 2>try to implement one every few episodes so we can

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<v Speaker 2>catch up with the callers who I was not feeling

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<v Speaker 2>confident enough or you weren't feeling.

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<v Speaker 3>Confident enough to help.

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<v Speaker 2>By the way, I've got so many compliments on you

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<v Speaker 2>this weekend.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh.

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<v Speaker 2>My sister was also saying, I was on the phone

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<v Speaker 2>with her last night just how much A loves your

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<v Speaker 2>voice and be how well rounded you are. She was like, god,

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<v Speaker 2>Catherine just knows a little bit about everything, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was like, I know, she's like a general practitioner.

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<v Speaker 3>That's so great.

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<v Speaker 4>I mean, I guess I told her.

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<v Speaker 2>Finances your specialty, because that's where you really come alive.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh my gosh, that would actually make everyone in my family.

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<v Speaker 1>My dad is a tax attorney, so that would make

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<v Speaker 1>him laugh very very hard. But oh that's so great,

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<v Speaker 1>A great compliment. Yeah, you know, I love to research.

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<v Speaker 1>I love to fall down an internet rabbit hole. It's

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<v Speaker 1>finally paying off.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it really is, now that you've got this Webby award.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I slipped and said, Emmy, we can get

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<v Speaker 2>what that? Yeah, that's for us. Excellent, excellent. Well, should

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<v Speaker 2>we welcome doctor.

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<v Speaker 4>Dan the show?

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<v Speaker 3>I know doctor Dan.

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<v Speaker 2>During the course of this interview, we'll mention several of

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<v Speaker 2>his books, but do we want to also maybe at

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<v Speaker 2>the end we can mention all the books because his

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<v Speaker 2>books are helpful, and I would like to just be

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<v Speaker 2>on the record and say there A lot of them

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<v Speaker 2>are parenting books. And I've read three parenting books from him,

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<v Speaker 2>So you are an expert in parenting. Well, I mean

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<v Speaker 2>it was more for Burt and Bernice, and we know

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<v Speaker 2>how that turned out. So I mean, I don't know

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<v Speaker 2>if you could apply parenting books to animals, but that's

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<v Speaker 2>what I was after.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, I think they can be as sassy as teenagers.

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<v Speaker 1>Like Mimsy is in a very teenager stage right now.

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<v Speaker 1>She just plants her feet when she doesn't want to

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<v Speaker 1>go home on a walk.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, Bernie does that all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>She Bernie won't step on certain materials, like she doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>like certain surfaces. So she's stops and then you have

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<v Speaker 2>to basically choke her to pull her over it. She

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<v Speaker 2>doesn't like sand, she doesn't like cement. That's just like

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<v Speaker 2>anything that's dirty. Really, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't know where she got that from, my belle.

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<v Speaker 3>It must be, it must be. We'll be right back.

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<v Speaker 2>So today's guest It has a medical degree from Harvard.

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<v Speaker 2>He's a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School

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<v Speaker 2>of Medicine and the founding co director of the Mindful

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<v Speaker 2>Awareness Research Center at UCLA. He is a multiple time

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<v Speaker 2>New York Times best selling author, a neuropsychiatrist, and interpersonal neurobiologist,

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<v Speaker 2>Doctor Dan Siegel.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, look who it is. Hi?

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<v Speaker 5>How are you?

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<v Speaker 3>Longtime?

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<v Speaker 6>You know?

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<v Speaker 3>Cci?

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<v Speaker 5>I know, how are you you?

0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.040
<v Speaker 3>I'm very well. This is my co host Catherine, who

0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:56.640
<v Speaker 3>I think he's.

0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.160
<v Speaker 5>Spoken to Hi, Catherine, Nice to see you.

0:10:59.800 --> 0:11:02.280
<v Speaker 4>Like Wise, Likewise.

0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Dan uses a standing desk, Catherine, So if his motion

0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:07.800
<v Speaker 2>is giving you motion sickness, let him know.

0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:10.840
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I can stop if you want. It's I like walking.

0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:12.520
<v Speaker 5>But if you want me to stop, I can stop.

0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:15.360
<v Speaker 2>No, that's fine. I'm fine with it. Although, Catherine, are

0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:16.040
<v Speaker 2>you okay with it?

0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:18.600
<v Speaker 1>I think I'm okay with it. If I do get

0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:20.440
<v Speaker 1>motion sickness, I will let you know.

0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.439
<v Speaker 2>I love the idea of getting motion signess from someone

0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:24.080
<v Speaker 2>else's motion.

0:11:24.880 --> 0:11:28.160
<v Speaker 3>What does it interpersonal neurobiologists mean? Dan?

0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.679
<v Speaker 5>You know? Interpersonal neurobiology is a phrase for a framework

0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.520
<v Speaker 5>that combines all different ways of knowing, like the different

0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.720
<v Speaker 5>fields of science or studies of meditation what are called

0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:47.280
<v Speaker 5>contemplative insights with indigenous practices indigenous wisdom, and we bring

0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:50.480
<v Speaker 5>it all together and say, if there's one reality, can

0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.520
<v Speaker 5>everybody join in the tent and have a conversation that's

0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:57.760
<v Speaker 5>collaborative so we can see the wisdom from all these

0:11:57.760 --> 0:11:58.680
<v Speaker 5>different points of view.

0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:02.199
<v Speaker 3>Oh, interesting, is that a new field?

0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.760
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, it's a new framework. I introduced it in nineteen

0:12:06.840 --> 0:12:10.800
<v Speaker 5>ninety nine, so it's relatively new compared to some other things.

0:12:11.360 --> 0:12:14.600
<v Speaker 5>But it's new, especially in the notion that it's not

0:12:14.760 --> 0:12:19.400
<v Speaker 5>trying to replace an existing point of view. It's trying

0:12:19.440 --> 0:12:22.800
<v Speaker 5>to say, there's so many views from thousands of years

0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 5>ago or from dozens of years ago, and if they're

0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:30.160
<v Speaker 5>all exploring the nature of truth, could we see if

0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:34.160
<v Speaker 5>they all fit together somehow? There's a common ground that EO. Wilson,

0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:38.640
<v Speaker 5>the writer calls consilience. So we look for the consilience

0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:42.440
<v Speaker 5>or common ground across independent pursuits of knowledge.

0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:47.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh wow, we're really leveling up this episode, Catherine buckle In.

0:12:49.200 --> 0:12:50.880
<v Speaker 5>So that relates to actually one of the questions that

0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:52.960
<v Speaker 5>I want to ask you, but I'll ask that later,

0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:54.120
<v Speaker 5>but it relates to it.

0:12:54.320 --> 0:12:57.000
<v Speaker 3>Okay, great, I love it. I love when you ask

0:12:57.080 --> 0:12:57.600
<v Speaker 3>me questions.

0:12:57.800 --> 0:12:59.959
<v Speaker 5>It's so great to see you, I got to say, Joseph.

0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:01.959
<v Speaker 3>Oh, it's always good to see you. Always good to

0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 3>see you.

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.319
<v Speaker 2>I spoke to you a few months ago because I'm

0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:07.880
<v Speaker 2>in a new relationship and about the adjustment to be

0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:10.720
<v Speaker 2>in a relationship with somebody, to spend so much time

0:13:10.760 --> 0:13:12.800
<v Speaker 2>with somebody when I'm so used to being so kind

0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.959
<v Speaker 2>of independent and alone. And I wanted to mention because

0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.560
<v Speaker 2>you and I had had conversation once and I can

0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:22.760
<v Speaker 2>say this because it's private until I publicize it.

0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:24.640
<v Speaker 3>So I'll say it.

0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.679
<v Speaker 2>But we talked about I remember there was a period

0:13:27.720 --> 0:13:29.400
<v Speaker 2>of time where I was telling you that I just

0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:31.160
<v Speaker 2>I was like, I just want to go to bed

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.080
<v Speaker 2>at like eight o'clock every night. You know, I'm not

0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:35.280
<v Speaker 2>in the mood to hang out. I just want to

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.080
<v Speaker 2>be in bed all the time. And I was asking you,

0:13:37.120 --> 0:13:40.040
<v Speaker 2>do you think I'm depressed? And I was single at

0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.360
<v Speaker 2>the time, and you said, saliently, I think that if

0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:45.600
<v Speaker 2>someone were in your life that you were excited about,

0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:47.439
<v Speaker 2>you wouldn't want to go to bed at seven or

0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:48.120
<v Speaker 2>eight o'clock.

0:13:48.760 --> 0:13:52.640
<v Speaker 3>And I still like to go to bed at seven

0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:53.680
<v Speaker 3>or eight o'clock.

0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:56.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, there are times when I can't where of

0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:58.960
<v Speaker 2>course I don't because he's a night owl, and we

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:00.280
<v Speaker 2>compromise a lot.

0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.760
<v Speaker 3>But the other night, I remember we came home.

0:14:03.040 --> 0:14:05.880
<v Speaker 2>He was taping two of his shows at the Forum

0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 2>in La his Netflix special, So there were big nights

0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:10.080
<v Speaker 2>out and we were out till one in the morning,

0:14:10.120 --> 0:14:11.880
<v Speaker 2>then we were out till five in the morning, and

0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:13.480
<v Speaker 2>on the Sunday we were planning to go to all

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.440
<v Speaker 2>these Oscar parties and I woke up Sunday, I'm like,

0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:19.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm done. I can't socialize anymore. And that night, and

0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, Joe wakes up. My boyfriend has more energy

0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:25.440
<v Speaker 2>than a battery pack. I mean, it is unbelievable what

0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.120
<v Speaker 2>this guy is willing to do all day long on

0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:30.880
<v Speaker 2>no sleep. It's just crazy. I've never seen any human

0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:35.160
<v Speaker 2>being operate like this. He's got different DNA. So anyway,

0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:37.640
<v Speaker 2>that night, he was like going somewhere. I wanted to

0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:39.040
<v Speaker 2>go to dinner with his family, and I was like,

0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:40.720
<v Speaker 2>I really just want to go to bed at seven

0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 2>or eight o'clock. And I remember the conversation you and

0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.640
<v Speaker 2>I had and I thought, oh, what does this mean

0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.200
<v Speaker 2>that I still want this? Because I have this kind

0:14:48.200 --> 0:14:51.160
<v Speaker 2>of element now to my personality where I want to

0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.840
<v Speaker 2>hunker down, you know, where I want to get in

0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:57.040
<v Speaker 2>bed and watch TV and just build myself a little nest.

0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:00.760
<v Speaker 2>And I know when you do that often too much,

0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.120
<v Speaker 2>it becomes it does become a pattern where it feels

0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:05.400
<v Speaker 2>like you are depressed.

0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:10.479
<v Speaker 5>Well no, so what's the part where you're calling it depression?

0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think when I was doing it consistently, now

0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:15.320
<v Speaker 2>I do it, you know, on a Sunday night, you know,

0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:18.280
<v Speaker 2>or you know, I don't do it as frequently, so

0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:21.480
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't feel as like bad.

0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:22.480
<v Speaker 3>Because when you do it consistently.

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.920
<v Speaker 2>And I think it was also maybe a product of

0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:27.680
<v Speaker 2>COVID as well, that I was just like, there's nothing

0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.080
<v Speaker 2>going on, it's just easier to get stoned and go,

0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:32.560
<v Speaker 2>you know, get into bed and whatever. But it was

0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:34.800
<v Speaker 2>becoming a pattern that I didn't like about myself. It

0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.840
<v Speaker 2>just didn't feel I didn't feel alive. I felt like

0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.640
<v Speaker 2>I was slightly depressed. And I've never really dealt with

0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:42.920
<v Speaker 2>any depression to the level where I had to really

0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:44.280
<v Speaker 2>like take anything for it.

0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:45.320
<v Speaker 3>Or I don't know.

0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.240
<v Speaker 2>I guess I don't know if it's a question or

0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 2>just an observation, but I don't know.

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:50.080
<v Speaker 3>What are your thoughts on that?

0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.920
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, well, you're raising a couple of really important issues.

0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.080
<v Speaker 5>I mean, one, when you use the word depression, we

0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.200
<v Speaker 5>should realize that there are people in the world who

0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:04.160
<v Speaker 5>have really serious ways where they get the experience of

0:16:04.440 --> 0:16:07.960
<v Speaker 5>you know, maybe going to bed early or even having

0:16:08.000 --> 0:16:09.960
<v Speaker 5>a hard time falling asleep. It can go either way.

0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.480
<v Speaker 5>Their sleep can be interrupted, they can get up early,

0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:16.800
<v Speaker 5>or they can sleep really a long time, So sleep

0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.720
<v Speaker 5>is a big issue to talk about with this thing

0:16:19.800 --> 0:16:23.080
<v Speaker 5>called major depression. But in addition, you know, they have

0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 5>low energy. They have something called anhedonia, which means and

0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.800
<v Speaker 5>is without hedonis pleasure, So they don't get pleasure in

0:16:32.200 --> 0:16:34.880
<v Speaker 5>things that used to give them pleasure. And also they

0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:39.120
<v Speaker 5>don't get pleasure in anticipating doing something fun, so they

0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:43.720
<v Speaker 5>kind of lose their jois de vivre, their joy of living.

0:16:43.800 --> 0:16:46.760
<v Speaker 5>It kind of goes away. They start thinking kind of

0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.880
<v Speaker 5>really down thoughts like I'm no good, I'm guilty of

0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.320
<v Speaker 5>things that I'm not even guilty of. You know, I'm

0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.240
<v Speaker 5>a horrible person, and there's no future for me, there's

0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.880
<v Speaker 5>no hope, and then I start feeling helpless. So for

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:02.560
<v Speaker 5>or any of us who've worked on a suicide prevention service,

0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:05.720
<v Speaker 5>when someone with serious depression calls you, you can feel

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:07.960
<v Speaker 5>it in the tone of their voice. It's kind of

0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:12.760
<v Speaker 5>like flat and there's a huge despair there. That makes

0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:16.040
<v Speaker 5>suicide a serious risk. So if anyone's hearing us and

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:18.520
<v Speaker 5>your experience of those, please reach out for help to

0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:22.240
<v Speaker 5>a mental health professional. If suicide is something you're thinking about,

0:17:22.320 --> 0:17:25.320
<v Speaker 5>you know, please reach out to a suicide prevention service,

0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:29.080
<v Speaker 5>because the great news about depression is that it's treatable

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:33.600
<v Speaker 5>and even though you may feel hopeless, there's hope right

0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:36.679
<v Speaker 5>around the corner. And part of it actually is the

0:17:36.720 --> 0:17:39.400
<v Speaker 5>connection we talked about. So when I said to you,

0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:42.040
<v Speaker 5>I think if you had a connection with someone that

0:17:42.160 --> 0:17:44.159
<v Speaker 5>mattered to you in your life, it wasn't that I

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:46.440
<v Speaker 5>thought you were depressed. But some people do get depressed

0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:51.280
<v Speaker 5>because they have no connection, and it's really loneliness, deep

0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:56.320
<v Speaker 5>deep loneliness. And our community, our larger society now doesn't

0:17:56.359 --> 0:17:59.679
<v Speaker 5>really support people having connections with each other. You know,

0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.399
<v Speaker 5>the current US Surgeon General wrote a beautiful book call

0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:07.879
<v Speaker 5>Together about this sad epidemic we have where we have

0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.200
<v Speaker 5>so much material wealth, but we don't have much relational wealth.

0:18:11.280 --> 0:18:14.960
<v Speaker 5>People are so isolated from each other, so you know,

0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:19.240
<v Speaker 5>that's a separate sort of thing. So being lonely can

0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:23.480
<v Speaker 5>make you feel horrible and despairing, but it might not

0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:27.120
<v Speaker 5>be called major depression, but it still feels terrible, and

0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.720
<v Speaker 5>we need to help people with that. And then there's

0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:32.159
<v Speaker 5>you know, just what's called dysphoria, which is where you

0:18:32.240 --> 0:18:35.480
<v Speaker 5>just feel yucky about your life. This as bad for me,

0:18:35.560 --> 0:18:38.200
<v Speaker 5>it's how you feel, and I'm dysphoric, you know, And

0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:41.639
<v Speaker 5>I think anyone who reads the news can get dysphoric

0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.280
<v Speaker 5>because we're in a rough place in the world now,

0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:48.840
<v Speaker 5>so our body is going to respond emotionally, and emotion,

0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:52.879
<v Speaker 5>you know, is basically three things woven together. It's relationships,

0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:57.080
<v Speaker 5>the body's response, and meaning. Those three things are really

0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.679
<v Speaker 5>what emotion is. So if someone says, oh my emotion

0:18:59.840 --> 0:19:04.520
<v Speaker 5>f horrible, I feel down. What's going on with the world, Yeah,

0:19:05.320 --> 0:19:07.520
<v Speaker 5>let's name it so we can frame it like in

0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.440
<v Speaker 5>a picture frame and say that's what it is. Let's

0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:13.800
<v Speaker 5>try to participate, you know, in social activism. Let's try

0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:17.280
<v Speaker 5>to do something to really feel empowered, to actually have

0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:19.480
<v Speaker 5>what's called agency, or I can be an agent of

0:19:19.520 --> 0:19:22.600
<v Speaker 5>action to do something. So a lot of people these

0:19:22.680 --> 0:19:26.720
<v Speaker 5>days are feeling hopeless, and they can call it depressed,

0:19:27.560 --> 0:19:31.200
<v Speaker 5>but that gets people mixed up with a serious psychiatric

0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.679
<v Speaker 5>condition rather than the world is in a really tough spot.

0:19:34.880 --> 0:19:37.240
<v Speaker 5>So we can feel hopeless. Let's talk to each other

0:19:37.240 --> 0:19:40.560
<v Speaker 5>about it, because in working collectively, we can actually move

0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:44.400
<v Speaker 5>through that to what Joanna Macy, a beautiful writer, calls

0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:47.600
<v Speaker 5>active hope. So this is a way you can take

0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.320
<v Speaker 5>that word depression and see it as either a serious

0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:54.320
<v Speaker 5>disorder that sometimes needs medications or other treatments, or a

0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 5>more moderate condition where you know psychotherapy can be helpful,

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:03.080
<v Speaker 5>or a we're using that word to describe loneliness and

0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:08.080
<v Speaker 5>then having a change in your participation in life. You know,

0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.560
<v Speaker 5>like people in AA, for example, they get an instant

0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:15.119
<v Speaker 5>community through alcoholics anonymous meetings, and their feeling of a

0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.879
<v Speaker 5>loneliness and despair can dissolve away because they go to

0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:20.359
<v Speaker 5>a regular meeting. Like a relative of mine is a

0:20:20.400 --> 0:20:23.480
<v Speaker 5>recovering alcoholic, and he goes to the meeting seven days

0:20:23.480 --> 0:20:26.399
<v Speaker 5>a week, and he's like the most unlnely person right

0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.040
<v Speaker 5>to find because he's got a whole community every day

0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.480
<v Speaker 5>that he's actively a part of, very meaningful conversations.

0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:34.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I like dysphoric.

0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:35.840
<v Speaker 2>That's a good way to describe it, because I think

0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.200
<v Speaker 2>for many of us, especially with the events of the

0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:39.880
<v Speaker 2>last few years, it's.

0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.280
<v Speaker 3>Like a low level of dysphoria.

0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:45.439
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's and it can feel it feels maybe

0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:48.320
<v Speaker 2>like depression, because it's not a common feeling. I know,

0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:51.520
<v Speaker 2>for me, I've never felt that kind of listlessness where

0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:52.040
<v Speaker 2>you're just.

0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:52.920
<v Speaker 3>Like it's on Wii.

0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:54.879
<v Speaker 2>You're just like, I don't I can't get it up

0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:58.120
<v Speaker 2>for anything. I'm not that excited about anything that's happening.

0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.879
<v Speaker 2>And I definitely did remove reading the news from my

0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:05.600
<v Speaker 2>repertoire after a while because I just I read too many.

0:21:05.640 --> 0:21:07.720
<v Speaker 3>It was too obvious what it does to your brain.

0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:11.119
<v Speaker 2>And obviously now with the events, the most recent events

0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.240
<v Speaker 2>in Ukraine and Russia invading Ukraine like that is something

0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.720
<v Speaker 2>that is a human being. It's our responsibility, I believe,

0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:20.359
<v Speaker 2>to be up to speed and to understand and to

0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.840
<v Speaker 2>be actively involved in doing whatever it is that you

0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 2>may be able to do, you know, whether that's donating

0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.360
<v Speaker 2>money or volunteering in some way, or just being mindful

0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.919
<v Speaker 2>of what's happening in the world and meditating on it

0:21:30.960 --> 0:21:33.840
<v Speaker 2>every day whatever, like small contribution you think is fine

0:21:33.880 --> 0:21:36.120
<v Speaker 2>for you, or big contribution, but.

0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.400
<v Speaker 3>The political aspect, it's just too sickening.

0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:43.320
<v Speaker 2>So I realized that that was just contributing to my

0:21:43.640 --> 0:21:47.919
<v Speaker 2>kind of darkness for a long time and had to

0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:52.600
<v Speaker 2>remove that. And it's kind of like it's too bad,

0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:56.440
<v Speaker 2>But it's an addiction. It's just like anything else. It's

0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.920
<v Speaker 2>just like being addicted to TikTok or Instagram or mind

0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:02.880
<v Speaker 2>scrolling through your phone on social media. That is also

0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.760
<v Speaker 2>an addiction, you know, And I don't like the way

0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:08.720
<v Speaker 2>that makes me feel either, And I'm very mindful of.

0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:10.639
<v Speaker 3>How peruse it.

0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:12.879
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, if I'm reading a book for two hours,

0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:15.080
<v Speaker 2>I come away with a much different feeling, a much

0:22:15.359 --> 0:22:18.399
<v Speaker 2>greater self assuredness and self esteem than I do when

0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm wasting my time reading gossip or reading you know,

0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.520
<v Speaker 2>the internet, Like, I know now what the components are

0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:28.520
<v Speaker 2>that trigger me or take me to kind of a

0:22:28.520 --> 0:22:31.360
<v Speaker 2>low energy, vibrational place exactly.

0:22:31.400 --> 0:22:36.800
<v Speaker 5>Well, you know, you're describing an awareness of how you're responding.

0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:40.840
<v Speaker 5>Your body is responding, your emotions are responding, and then

0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:45.520
<v Speaker 5>in that awareness, you've beautifully created a space so you

0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:49.320
<v Speaker 5>can say, wow, I'm kind of addicted to these social

0:22:49.359 --> 0:22:54.760
<v Speaker 5>media things, and I notice I feel really bad. Wow.

0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.000
<v Speaker 5>When I take the time to reflect on that, I

0:22:58.040 --> 0:22:59.800
<v Speaker 5>can name it. Oh, I feel bad when I do

0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:01.760
<v Speaker 5>this social media. I could frame it say Okay, what

0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:03.439
<v Speaker 5>do I want to do about it? I'm not going

0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:06.200
<v Speaker 5>to do it as much. That's an empowered mind you're

0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:09.560
<v Speaker 5>talking about that you have, and it's beautiful here you

0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.160
<v Speaker 5>describe it, and a lot of people and if you've

0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:16.000
<v Speaker 5>seen the Social Dilemma documentary, you know, the people who

0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:23.119
<v Speaker 5>designed social media studied addiction, and they intentionally create stuff

0:23:23.160 --> 0:23:26.679
<v Speaker 5>on your screens to capture eyeballs, to capture your time,

0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:31.560
<v Speaker 5>focusing your attention on the thing whatever it is. That

0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.679
<v Speaker 5>wasn't by accident, it was by intent.

0:23:35.200 --> 0:23:38.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but what's so astonishing is that everybody is aware

0:23:38.320 --> 0:23:40.480
<v Speaker 2>of that and has been made aware of that, yet

0:23:40.480 --> 0:23:44.400
<v Speaker 2>we still allow ourselves to operate.

0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.520
<v Speaker 3>Like that, like people like, I know, it's crazy.

0:23:47.720 --> 0:23:49.920
<v Speaker 2>It's like, well, wait, you're just a cog and of

0:23:49.960 --> 0:23:52.920
<v Speaker 2>wheel if you're just allowing people to manipulate your brain.

0:23:53.480 --> 0:23:53.640
<v Speaker 7>Right.

0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:59.240
<v Speaker 5>Well, And part of the reason why that addiction what's

0:23:59.240 --> 0:24:03.080
<v Speaker 5>called intermittent reinforcement. If you keep on giving positive reinforcement

0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:05.480
<v Speaker 5>over and over again, after a while, it isn't so addicting.

0:24:05.880 --> 0:24:09.680
<v Speaker 5>But intermittent reinforcement where I give you a reward, then

0:24:10.080 --> 0:24:12.440
<v Speaker 5>three next times don't. Then I give you one, then

0:24:12.520 --> 0:24:15.119
<v Speaker 5>eight times next I don't. Then the ninth time you

0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:16.960
<v Speaker 5>get a reward, you don't know when it's gonna happen,

0:24:17.000 --> 0:24:19.720
<v Speaker 5>so it really pulls you in. That's number one. The

0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:22.560
<v Speaker 5>other thing, which is the other side of it, is

0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:27.760
<v Speaker 5>that our brains are incredibly social. So there's all sorts

0:24:27.760 --> 0:24:29.879
<v Speaker 5>of studies I can tell you about, but the summary

0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:32.880
<v Speaker 5>of all of them basically is we are social creatures.

0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.240
<v Speaker 5>That's no surprise. You didn't need to do brain studies

0:24:35.240 --> 0:24:37.359
<v Speaker 5>to know that. But when you look at the brain,

0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:42.159
<v Speaker 5>areas involved in feeling accepted. And I can tell you

0:24:42.200 --> 0:24:45.679
<v Speaker 5>one study that is so cool. When you're accepted, it

0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:49.280
<v Speaker 5>activates this dopamine release. It's very rewarding. That's what the

0:24:49.320 --> 0:24:51.800
<v Speaker 5>dopamine is for. That was good. Let me do it again,

0:24:51.920 --> 0:24:53.280
<v Speaker 5>Let me do it again, Let me do it again.

0:24:53.520 --> 0:24:57.280
<v Speaker 5>But then when you sense that you're not accepted, like

0:24:57.320 --> 0:24:59.920
<v Speaker 5>you're not getting as many hits on your social media

0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:03.320
<v Speaker 5>or whatever like that, the part of the brain, it's

0:25:03.359 --> 0:25:06.320
<v Speaker 5>called the dorsal anterior cingulate, the part of the brain

0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:10.840
<v Speaker 5>that registers social rejection. I call it feeling of being inadequate,

0:25:11.040 --> 0:25:13.440
<v Speaker 5>like I'm not fitting in with the social group. It's

0:25:13.480 --> 0:25:15.440
<v Speaker 5>exactly the same part of the brain as if someone's

0:25:15.440 --> 0:25:18.560
<v Speaker 5>stabbing you with a knife. It hurts literally in the brain.

0:25:18.640 --> 0:25:21.920
<v Speaker 5>It's the same part of the brain social rejection, physical pain,

0:25:22.280 --> 0:25:25.439
<v Speaker 5>same part of the brain. Now, when you take that,

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:27.600
<v Speaker 5>you go wow, Okay, So you're always trying to see

0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:29.679
<v Speaker 5>how can I fit in? How do I compare? How

0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:31.359
<v Speaker 5>do I fit in? How do I compare? Do I belong?

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:34.320
<v Speaker 5>Do I not belong? You know, so you're trying not

0:25:34.440 --> 0:25:37.720
<v Speaker 5>to feel the pain. You're trying to find membership in

0:25:37.840 --> 0:25:41.360
<v Speaker 5>a modern society, as we talked about earlier, where we're

0:25:41.359 --> 0:25:45.920
<v Speaker 5>so alone. So you combine those two things, the int reinforcement,

0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:48.600
<v Speaker 5>all the other ways they know about addiction with the

0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:53.679
<v Speaker 5>social brain, and it is a money maker goes. Then

0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:55.320
<v Speaker 5>you're going to get so much time.

0:25:55.680 --> 0:25:56.199
<v Speaker 2>Think about it.

0:25:56.240 --> 0:25:58.679
<v Speaker 5>Fifteen years ago we didn't have these things, and now

0:25:58.880 --> 0:25:59.800
<v Speaker 5>everyone's got them.

0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:02.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I know people are like, oh, we're going to

0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:04.359
<v Speaker 2>keep our kids off social media, We're going to keep

0:26:04.359 --> 0:26:05.960
<v Speaker 2>them off of iPads. I'm not going to get any

0:26:05.960 --> 0:26:08.119
<v Speaker 2>of that until they're ten, twelve, fifteen. I have a

0:26:08.160 --> 0:26:10.440
<v Speaker 2>friend who waited for her kids to get a phone

0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:13.439
<v Speaker 2>until I think they were fourteen, And it's like, what

0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:14.040
<v Speaker 2>does that do?

0:26:14.280 --> 0:26:17.760
<v Speaker 3>Because once you get it, once you're in, you're in, right.

0:26:17.880 --> 0:26:19.760
<v Speaker 5>I mean I even see it in my two kids.

0:26:20.280 --> 0:26:24.359
<v Speaker 5>You know, one he's old enough, he's thirty two to

0:26:25.320 --> 0:26:27.720
<v Speaker 5>not have had that part of his adolescence. The other

0:26:27.800 --> 0:26:30.200
<v Speaker 5>is twenty eight and she did. And you can even

0:26:30.200 --> 0:26:33.360
<v Speaker 5>see in their different groups of friends, you know, they

0:26:33.640 --> 0:26:36.240
<v Speaker 5>deal with social media in different ways, the younger one more.

0:26:36.840 --> 0:26:38.520
<v Speaker 5>I'll tell you a sad thing. I was having lunch

0:26:38.560 --> 0:26:41.280
<v Speaker 5>with Caroline, my wife. We were having a nice lunch

0:26:41.280 --> 0:26:44.159
<v Speaker 5>in New York. It was a great restaurant and everything.

0:26:44.200 --> 0:26:46.119
<v Speaker 5>Then these people come sit next to us with this

0:26:46.200 --> 0:26:48.119
<v Speaker 5>one year old kid, and it was really cute, and

0:26:48.160 --> 0:26:50.440
<v Speaker 5>they were from another country and it was her birthday,

0:26:50.440 --> 0:26:52.520
<v Speaker 5>so it was a birthday party. So they pull out

0:26:52.560 --> 0:26:56.080
<v Speaker 5>this presence, just one sitting in the high chair. They

0:26:56.240 --> 0:27:01.159
<v Speaker 5>handed her a smartphone and for the rest of the

0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:05.159
<v Speaker 5>so called birthday party lunch, every one of them is

0:27:05.200 --> 0:27:08.480
<v Speaker 5>on their separate device, and Caroline and I are going,

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:10.800
<v Speaker 5>oh my god. So I took out my phone to

0:27:10.840 --> 0:27:12.359
<v Speaker 5>take a picture because I wanted to put up on

0:27:12.400 --> 0:27:14.760
<v Speaker 5>social media. She goes, don't do that, you know, which

0:27:14.800 --> 0:27:17.520
<v Speaker 5>is right. I shouldn't expose them, although I did get

0:27:17.560 --> 0:27:19.000
<v Speaker 5>a picture where you couldn't see identity.

0:27:19.040 --> 0:27:20.800
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, and you really should know better than that

0:27:20.800 --> 0:27:21.240
<v Speaker 3>first time.

0:27:21.200 --> 0:27:24.520
<v Speaker 5>I mean, what I wanted to share on social media.

0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:28.480
<v Speaker 5>How scary social media can be. Because this kid, now, at.

0:27:28.320 --> 0:27:32.080
<v Speaker 2>One, you should have gone up to them and said, hey, yeah,

0:27:32.320 --> 0:27:35.720
<v Speaker 2>these are my credentials and I need to yeah, and

0:27:35.880 --> 0:27:38.800
<v Speaker 2>said listen, I am a doctor that specializes in this.

0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I have a degree from Harvard. I'm a neuropsychiatrist. Do

0:27:43.000 --> 0:27:46.240
<v Speaker 2>you understand the damage you are doing to your child's brain?

0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:49.359
<v Speaker 5>And you rememborize what you're saying next time, I'm going

0:27:49.400 --> 0:27:49.760
<v Speaker 5>to do that.

0:27:50.000 --> 0:27:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, come on, I mean, think about the impact that

0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:55.560
<v Speaker 2>would have had. Yeah, maybe it's unwelcome, but I mean

0:27:55.560 --> 0:27:58.160
<v Speaker 2>you're doing them a favor, you know, at least giving

0:27:58.200 --> 0:27:59.800
<v Speaker 2>them the information that they may not.

0:27:59.760 --> 0:28:00.399
<v Speaker 7>Be vy to.

0:28:00.960 --> 0:28:05.520
<v Speaker 5>What's so interesting, Chelsea, because there are times when I

0:28:05.600 --> 0:28:12.880
<v Speaker 5>wonder about doing that, offering unrequested suggestions. Now my kids

0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:16.000
<v Speaker 5>are now adults, so that's that's a whole parenting adult

0:28:16.080 --> 0:28:20.119
<v Speaker 5>children thing where you actually intentionally don't do it. But

0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:22.159
<v Speaker 5>as a professional and a member of our you know,

0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:25.080
<v Speaker 5>human family, when do I offer stuff like that? So

0:28:25.960 --> 0:28:28.840
<v Speaker 5>it's a little tricky. I've tried it a few times

0:28:28.840 --> 0:28:31.320
<v Speaker 5>and it often does not go off well. So what

0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:32.879
<v Speaker 5>I do is I keep a lot of my extra

0:28:33.000 --> 0:28:35.639
<v Speaker 5>parenting books in the car and then I just like

0:28:35.760 --> 0:28:38.120
<v Speaker 5>hand them out for free, like you know, Halloween, you know.

0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:40.680
<v Speaker 3>Trigger Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you know nobody.

0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:43.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean most people would say, don't give unsolicited advice.

0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:46.400
<v Speaker 2>I obviously subscribe to a different theory. I think that

0:28:46.520 --> 0:28:49.160
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I can hit somebody. I mean not always, but

0:28:49.400 --> 0:28:51.280
<v Speaker 2>sometimes you can get somebody who really hears you and

0:28:51.440 --> 0:28:54.720
<v Speaker 2>and you're doing them a service or a favor, you know.

0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:56.040
<v Speaker 3>I mean that is sad.

0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:58.560
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, But you know, when you and I first met,

0:28:58.880 --> 0:29:01.720
<v Speaker 5>I really was impressed with how you like to learn

0:29:02.040 --> 0:29:06.880
<v Speaker 5>new stuff. What in you really empowers you to have

0:29:07.000 --> 0:29:10.800
<v Speaker 5>such a focus on lifelong learning, because when you came

0:29:10.840 --> 0:29:13.120
<v Speaker 5>to me, you weren't like an adolescent coming to me

0:29:13.160 --> 0:29:15.880
<v Speaker 5>for therapy. You know, I'm a child adolescent and adult therapist.

0:29:16.120 --> 0:29:18.560
<v Speaker 5>An adolescent can struggle with things, you know, you were

0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:21.680
<v Speaker 5>a full on adult accomplished a lot, but you came

0:29:21.720 --> 0:29:25.000
<v Speaker 5>to learn more, you know, and it's such a beautiful

0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:26.880
<v Speaker 5>thing that I think life will be the death of me.

0:29:27.000 --> 0:29:31.600
<v Speaker 5>Your book illustrates. But what is it that you can

0:29:31.680 --> 0:29:35.479
<v Speaker 5>teach all of us about your lifelong learning nature?

0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:39.760
<v Speaker 3>Well, I mean, thank you. I think that's a huge compliment.

0:29:39.880 --> 0:29:42.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know that it's really I think

0:29:42.760 --> 0:29:44.960
<v Speaker 2>I just am very curious, you know, Like I have

0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:47.240
<v Speaker 2>a curiosity that I've always had which has gotten me

0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:51.160
<v Speaker 2>into lots of trouble as a child, like asking impertinent questions,

0:29:51.200 --> 0:29:54.400
<v Speaker 2>but being really curious about people's lives. And I love

0:29:54.920 --> 0:29:58.320
<v Speaker 2>interpersonal dynamics, like I just love like when I meet

0:29:58.320 --> 0:30:00.920
<v Speaker 2>a family, like if I'm on and I get to

0:30:00.920 --> 0:30:04.720
<v Speaker 2>meet brothers and sisters together with their parents and watching

0:30:04.760 --> 0:30:07.680
<v Speaker 2>the dynamics and like how they function. I just will

0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:10.520
<v Speaker 2>never get tired of that. And because I'm from such

0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:14.000
<v Speaker 2>a big family and we have so many additional family members,

0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:16.880
<v Speaker 2>because people get married and hook up and have boyfriends

0:30:16.880 --> 0:30:19.840
<v Speaker 2>and girlfriends and children, it just gets more and more complex.

0:30:19.920 --> 0:30:22.760
<v Speaker 2>And so for me, it was about becoming a better,

0:30:23.000 --> 0:30:29.560
<v Speaker 2>more self aware, fuller person. But curiosity, I think, you know,

0:30:29.600 --> 0:30:32.040
<v Speaker 2>I could listen to you talk about the brain and

0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:35.479
<v Speaker 2>science for hours because I find that fascinating too, you know.

0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:38.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean there are things I don't find fascinating, like bitcoin,

0:30:39.120 --> 0:30:42.800
<v Speaker 2>you know that is when I talk about that, it's like, hmm, okay,

0:30:42.840 --> 0:30:45.479
<v Speaker 2>I don't have I mean I had someone explain an

0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:48.280
<v Speaker 2>NFT to me finally where I was able to get

0:30:48.800 --> 0:30:52.080
<v Speaker 2>understand from the beginning to the end, and I was like,

0:30:52.160 --> 0:30:54.480
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, I want to I want to pay

0:30:54.520 --> 0:30:57.480
<v Speaker 2>you for that explanation because I now understand what an

0:30:57.600 --> 0:30:58.200
<v Speaker 2>NFT is.

0:30:58.400 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 5>Okay, well i'd have you tell me that, but.

0:31:01.280 --> 0:31:03.680
<v Speaker 2>We'll save that for another We'll save that for a

0:31:03.720 --> 0:31:04.520
<v Speaker 2>private conversation.

0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:05.760
<v Speaker 3>Yes, but thank you.

0:31:05.840 --> 0:31:07.239
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know, I really don't know how

0:31:07.240 --> 0:31:08.880
<v Speaker 2>to answer that, but I do think that you know,

0:31:08.920 --> 0:31:12.280
<v Speaker 2>when you ask questions, you're signing up for just like

0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:15.840
<v Speaker 2>more knowledge, right, You're yeah, and especially if you have

0:31:16.000 --> 0:31:19.520
<v Speaker 2>the luxury of going to someone like you you have

0:31:19.560 --> 0:31:22.200
<v Speaker 2>so much experience, it's like it's a win win situation.

0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:23.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes, it's going to.

0:31:23.880 --> 0:31:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Be painful at times when you're doing inner work, of course,

0:31:26.640 --> 0:31:29.320
<v Speaker 2>because you have to face things about yourself that are

0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:33.360
<v Speaker 2>not pleasant and that are humiliating or embarrassing or however

0:31:33.400 --> 0:31:36.400
<v Speaker 2>you want to frame that. But bravery gets you to

0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:38.800
<v Speaker 2>a better place in life. I think you know, being

0:31:38.840 --> 0:31:40.800
<v Speaker 2>brave about finding out about yourself.

0:31:41.440 --> 0:31:45.720
<v Speaker 5>I think your journey in therapy it isn't everyone's experience

0:31:45.760 --> 0:31:51.080
<v Speaker 5>that they're so basically open to change. And I remember

0:31:51.120 --> 0:31:53.200
<v Speaker 5>there was a moment and you say this in the

0:31:53.200 --> 0:31:55.920
<v Speaker 5>book so I can share it. You got very emotional

0:31:55.960 --> 0:31:59.479
<v Speaker 5>about something, and I think there was an awareness that

0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:02.360
<v Speaker 5>you felt shouldn't be emotionally, shouldn't be crying, You shouldn't

0:32:02.440 --> 0:32:05.200
<v Speaker 5>have it right. One is lifelong learning, but the other

0:32:05.280 --> 0:32:06.800
<v Speaker 5>is openness to change.

0:32:07.160 --> 0:32:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Well, yes, I would encourage everyone to always be curious

0:32:10.400 --> 0:32:10.920
<v Speaker 2>to learn.

0:32:11.080 --> 0:32:14.480
<v Speaker 3>I mean learning is knowledge and knowledge is power, and

0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.920
<v Speaker 3>I want to be powerful. Okay, So should we go

0:32:17.960 --> 0:32:19.000
<v Speaker 3>ahead and take some callers.

0:32:19.200 --> 0:32:21.000
<v Speaker 1>I think that's a great idea, and I'm going to

0:32:21.040 --> 0:32:23.040
<v Speaker 1>make us take a quick break before we do that.

0:32:23.080 --> 0:32:25.480
<v Speaker 3>I love breaks. Let's take one excellent.

0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:32.120
<v Speaker 2>We had to call a right Catherine, that's going to

0:32:32.200 --> 0:32:35.320
<v Speaker 2>call back in because it's a man who's transitioned from

0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:37.560
<v Speaker 2>being a woman and he has a three year old

0:32:37.680 --> 0:32:41.840
<v Speaker 2>daughter with his wife, and he was asking when the

0:32:41.920 --> 0:32:46.000
<v Speaker 2>appropriate time is to explain all of those things to her,

0:32:46.040 --> 0:32:48.240
<v Speaker 2>and I thought, we have Dan coming up. I think

0:32:48.240 --> 0:32:50.920
<v Speaker 2>you'd be better suited to answer that question instead of me.

0:32:51.560 --> 0:32:53.760
<v Speaker 2>So I think we were able to get Alex on

0:32:53.760 --> 0:32:55.440
<v Speaker 2>the phone today, right Catherine.

0:32:55.160 --> 0:32:57.240
<v Speaker 4>Yes, his three year old daughter, Sutton.

0:32:57.480 --> 0:32:59.760
<v Speaker 1>He has a bottom surgery coming up in the next

0:32:59.840 --> 0:33:01.800
<v Speaker 1>year and a half, and so he's wondering how to

0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:08.760
<v Speaker 1>address those things with Sutton. So Hi Alex, Hello, Hi Alex,

0:33:09.040 --> 0:33:10.440
<v Speaker 1>Hey Alex, nice to meet you.

0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:13.280
<v Speaker 6>Nice to meet you. Thank you for having me.

0:33:13.880 --> 0:33:16.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well, when you were on last time, I was like, oh,

0:33:16.520 --> 0:33:19.080
<v Speaker 2>you know what, I you know, we had a great conversation,

0:33:19.160 --> 0:33:21.640
<v Speaker 2>but I thought we have my doctor coming on next

0:33:21.720 --> 0:33:25.000
<v Speaker 2>and he would be better suited since he specializes in

0:33:25.120 --> 0:33:28.640
<v Speaker 2>adolescent brain development and childhood all.

0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:29.120
<v Speaker 3>Of this stuff.

0:33:29.480 --> 0:33:32.600
<v Speaker 2>So yeah, he's here, so we were we thought maybe

0:33:32.640 --> 0:33:36.160
<v Speaker 2>you could give him a summary of your situation so

0:33:36.200 --> 0:33:37.920
<v Speaker 2>he could weigh in for sure.

0:33:38.040 --> 0:33:38.280
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:42.040
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, thank you. So the situation really is is I

0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:45.200
<v Speaker 6>have a three year old and I am I'm the

0:33:45.360 --> 0:33:48.240
<v Speaker 6>cusp of going through the consultation process to have my

0:33:48.320 --> 0:33:53.360
<v Speaker 6>next major surgery as being a transgender and I really

0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:56.959
<v Speaker 6>am going to be embarking upon a long journey of

0:33:57.000 --> 0:34:00.440
<v Speaker 6>about three to four surgeries to have everything happen, and

0:34:00.480 --> 0:34:02.920
<v Speaker 6>it usually takes about a year year and a half

0:34:02.960 --> 0:34:06.520
<v Speaker 6>in long recovery times. And I wanted to do this

0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:09.600
<v Speaker 6>early in Sutton's development so that it wasn't kind of

0:34:09.600 --> 0:34:12.400
<v Speaker 6>a core memory for her. But I'm just kind of

0:34:12.680 --> 0:34:15.600
<v Speaker 6>teetering on how much to be to tell a three

0:34:15.680 --> 0:34:18.000
<v Speaker 6>year old a four year old about what type of

0:34:18.040 --> 0:34:20.719
<v Speaker 6>surgery I'm having, the impact that it's going to have

0:34:20.800 --> 0:34:23.120
<v Speaker 6>to her life as well as what healing time is,

0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:26.320
<v Speaker 6>because it's not like I'm sick or going through anything

0:34:26.360 --> 0:34:28.920
<v Speaker 6>that's something that she should be worried about. More So,

0:34:29.080 --> 0:34:31.640
<v Speaker 6>this is a great part of my journey, but it's

0:34:31.760 --> 0:34:34.080
<v Speaker 6>going to be impactful for her, So I just want

0:34:34.120 --> 0:34:37.040
<v Speaker 6>to make sure that I'm expressing both sides of it

0:34:37.120 --> 0:34:39.759
<v Speaker 6>and the reality of it, but also in a way

0:34:39.760 --> 0:34:42.240
<v Speaker 6>that she's going to understand what's happening to Daddy.

0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:46.880
<v Speaker 5>Well. She's so lucky to have you as a parent, Alex,

0:34:47.000 --> 0:34:51.760
<v Speaker 5>because your intuition of tuning in and getting a feeling

0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:57.000
<v Speaker 5>of transparency that a family without secrets is a family

0:34:57.080 --> 0:35:00.120
<v Speaker 5>that has you could call it a coherent narrative that

0:35:00.239 --> 0:35:03.359
<v Speaker 5>as a narrative about whatever is going on, even if

0:35:03.400 --> 0:35:07.040
<v Speaker 5>it's about something wasn't expected, which is usually where stories

0:35:07.080 --> 0:35:12.080
<v Speaker 5>come from. You know, is really important. And what is

0:35:12.120 --> 0:35:14.920
<v Speaker 5>your heart and your gut? Literally we have three brains.

0:35:14.960 --> 0:35:16.719
<v Speaker 5>You have a brain in your head, you have a

0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:19.200
<v Speaker 5>brain in your heart, You have a brain in your

0:35:19.280 --> 0:35:22.239
<v Speaker 5>gut and what is your heart brain and your gut brain.

0:35:22.280 --> 0:35:24.279
<v Speaker 5>What are they telling your head brain that has the

0:35:24.320 --> 0:35:27.279
<v Speaker 5>words to speak, What are they signaling to you?

0:35:27.920 --> 0:35:33.000
<v Speaker 6>So I suppose if I was to refer to my heart,

0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:35.960
<v Speaker 6>I would say that I want to make sure that

0:35:36.000 --> 0:35:40.600
<v Speaker 6>she feels comforted in those times when I'm healing and I,

0:35:40.960 --> 0:35:43.399
<v Speaker 6>you know, can't be around her as much, can't play

0:35:43.400 --> 0:35:45.520
<v Speaker 6>with her on as much or engage with her as

0:35:45.560 --> 0:35:50.040
<v Speaker 6>she expects. And then I guess my gut is kind

0:35:50.080 --> 0:35:52.320
<v Speaker 6>of telling me to be a little bit more worried

0:35:52.360 --> 0:35:55.200
<v Speaker 6>about kind of what the impact is going to have

0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:58.120
<v Speaker 6>and what I guess the optics are a big thing.

0:35:58.600 --> 0:36:01.880
<v Speaker 6>Optics of her going back to daycare, or talking about

0:36:01.880 --> 0:36:04.960
<v Speaker 6>what our family looks like at that time, or her

0:36:05.000 --> 0:36:07.560
<v Speaker 6>having to do everything with mom because I won't be

0:36:07.560 --> 0:36:09.080
<v Speaker 6>able to get out of the house as well for

0:36:09.640 --> 0:36:12.120
<v Speaker 6>that amount of time. So yeah, I just want her

0:36:12.160 --> 0:36:15.239
<v Speaker 6>to feel like I'm still there just as I am

0:36:15.320 --> 0:36:19.719
<v Speaker 6>every single day now with being as able as I am.

0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:23.719
<v Speaker 5>That's fantastic. And you know, these two brains, when they

0:36:23.840 --> 0:36:26.640
<v Speaker 5>send their wisdom up to your head brain, which has

0:36:26.760 --> 0:36:30.680
<v Speaker 5>kind of logic and thinking about things in that way,

0:36:30.880 --> 0:36:34.560
<v Speaker 5>what does your head brain say about the whole developmental

0:36:34.640 --> 0:36:36.680
<v Speaker 5>timing of when to speak with her?

0:36:38.520 --> 0:36:42.040
<v Speaker 6>I suppose my head brain is kind of kind of

0:36:42.080 --> 0:36:46.120
<v Speaker 6>being more logical. Hopefully it's it's on my side, but

0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:48.680
<v Speaker 6>being more logical in the way that telling me that

0:36:48.719 --> 0:36:52.480
<v Speaker 6>it's going to be okay, like this is only going

0:36:52.480 --> 0:36:56.840
<v Speaker 6>to be a blip in what our family development looks like.

0:36:57.360 --> 0:36:59.640
<v Speaker 6>And I hope that what comes out of it is

0:36:59.680 --> 0:37:03.319
<v Speaker 6>that she sees that my happiness continues to grow on

0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:07.320
<v Speaker 6>my personal journey and that our family just becomes more

0:37:07.840 --> 0:37:10.799
<v Speaker 6>kind of united, that when she looks back on the time, yes,

0:37:10.840 --> 0:37:13.239
<v Speaker 6>it was trying in the grand scheme of how we

0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:16.040
<v Speaker 6>had to schedule things, and I wasn't there for you know,

0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:19.360
<v Speaker 6>going and running outside as much. But after the healing,

0:37:19.719 --> 0:37:22.719
<v Speaker 6>life will go back to quote unquote normal and I

0:37:22.760 --> 0:37:26.359
<v Speaker 6>will just have more happiness and more understanding of how

0:37:26.400 --> 0:37:29.560
<v Speaker 6>I walk in the world. So that hopefully just makes

0:37:29.560 --> 0:37:32.520
<v Speaker 6>it easier for her and for our family to progress

0:37:32.360 --> 0:37:33.160
<v Speaker 6>as a unit.

0:37:34.000 --> 0:37:37.240
<v Speaker 5>That's so beautiful. Well, I mean, Alex, for me, you've

0:37:37.480 --> 0:37:41.200
<v Speaker 5>kind of answered the question in the deepest way of

0:37:41.239 --> 0:37:44.000
<v Speaker 5>what feels right to you personally, what feels right to

0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:47.719
<v Speaker 5>you for your daughter, and then you know, when you're

0:37:47.719 --> 0:37:50.120
<v Speaker 5>turning to Chelsea and you know turning to me, you know,

0:37:50.280 --> 0:37:54.640
<v Speaker 5>as a person who writes about development, here's just added

0:37:54.680 --> 0:37:57.239
<v Speaker 5>on top of your wisdom. I would just add the

0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:01.520
<v Speaker 5>following things. The way you're I think think approaching the

0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:04.600
<v Speaker 5>notion of a family story, the family narrative. And I

0:38:04.640 --> 0:38:07.840
<v Speaker 5>don't say story like a pretend story. I mean we

0:38:07.960 --> 0:38:11.200
<v Speaker 5>are narrative creatures. We tell the story of who we are,

0:38:11.960 --> 0:38:14.600
<v Speaker 5>and some families never do that. And there are all

0:38:14.640 --> 0:38:17.319
<v Speaker 5>sorts of secrets and all sorts of things that are

0:38:17.320 --> 0:38:21.440
<v Speaker 5>never talked about, you know, and then that shuts things down.

0:38:21.640 --> 0:38:24.160
<v Speaker 5>I mean, Chelsea, we could talk about that about when

0:38:24.200 --> 0:38:26.960
<v Speaker 5>your brother died that you've written about so powerfully in

0:38:27.000 --> 0:38:31.280
<v Speaker 5>your narrative of letting that come out and be the story.

0:38:31.560 --> 0:38:35.400
<v Speaker 5>So Alex, for you and for your whole family, everything

0:38:35.440 --> 0:38:39.239
<v Speaker 5>can be our teacher. You know, life happens, stuff that's

0:38:39.320 --> 0:38:42.799
<v Speaker 5>challenging happens. And if we see things that are not

0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:48.319
<v Speaker 5>expected as challenges rather than as threats, then we bring

0:38:48.360 --> 0:38:51.759
<v Speaker 5>as a parent a very different attitude, like saying, you know,

0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:55.879
<v Speaker 5>we didn't expect this to happen. Now, how you then

0:38:56.480 --> 0:39:01.719
<v Speaker 5>make that health, promoting growth, promoting stress or distress is

0:39:01.760 --> 0:39:04.040
<v Speaker 5>what I think your beautiful question is doing. You're saying,

0:39:04.520 --> 0:39:07.440
<v Speaker 5>this is going to be stressful, that's fine. Life is

0:39:07.680 --> 0:39:10.760
<v Speaker 5>that's meaningful and stressful. How do we allow this to

0:39:10.800 --> 0:39:15.239
<v Speaker 5>turn into a positive, growth promoting, challenging experience rather than

0:39:15.239 --> 0:39:19.600
<v Speaker 5>a threat? And the answer is what you've already told us.

0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:24.399
<v Speaker 5>You're ready to be fully present with your daughter. You're

0:39:24.440 --> 0:39:28.000
<v Speaker 5>being fully present with yourself, and so you know you

0:39:28.080 --> 0:39:30.279
<v Speaker 5>could turn to the people who are involved in the

0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:32.359
<v Speaker 5>surgery and the centers you're working with and ask them

0:39:32.360 --> 0:39:34.640
<v Speaker 5>this question too, which I urge you to do. From

0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:36.719
<v Speaker 5>my point of view, it's not my area of specialty,

0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:40.000
<v Speaker 5>but as a child specialist, what I would say is

0:39:40.040 --> 0:39:43.400
<v Speaker 5>this is every child's a little different terms of their temperament,

0:39:44.560 --> 0:39:46.239
<v Speaker 5>and every child's a little different in terms of their

0:39:46.280 --> 0:39:51.640
<v Speaker 5>attachment to different caregivers. But the commonality across temperament and

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:55.640
<v Speaker 5>attachment is to tell a story that makes sense of things.

0:39:55.680 --> 0:39:58.319
<v Speaker 5>So in a book I wrote called Parenting from the

0:39:58.360 --> 0:40:01.680
<v Speaker 5>Inside Out, it's sort of tea you how to bring

0:40:01.719 --> 0:40:04.640
<v Speaker 5>those stories. Or I wrote that with Mary Hartzel, a

0:40:04.680 --> 0:40:07.279
<v Speaker 5>book I wrote with Tina Payne Bryson is called The

0:40:07.320 --> 0:40:09.839
<v Speaker 5>Power of Showing Up. Those two books would be great

0:40:09.960 --> 0:40:13.839
<v Speaker 5>ones for you to actually read before you tell her

0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:18.960
<v Speaker 5>the story, because they show that whatever the age, people

0:40:19.000 --> 0:40:21.399
<v Speaker 5>ask this about kids whore adopted, When should I tell

0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:24.359
<v Speaker 5>my adopted kid whenever you bring it? Two, three, four.

0:40:24.760 --> 0:40:27.640
<v Speaker 5>She's old enough now to be able to hear a

0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:30.600
<v Speaker 5>story as you know, to want to hear it again

0:40:30.719 --> 0:40:32.960
<v Speaker 5>and again and again and again, and so you have

0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:36.600
<v Speaker 5>to be ready to like be repeating yourself. But that's fine.

0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:39.839
<v Speaker 5>And when she sees the love in your heart, when

0:40:39.920 --> 0:40:44.040
<v Speaker 5>she feels that your gut is really behind this and

0:40:44.080 --> 0:40:47.400
<v Speaker 5>your head is now bringing the words to make a story,

0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:51.239
<v Speaker 5>makes sense. She's ready at three unless there's some of

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:53.799
<v Speaker 5>the other issue that says, let's hold it off. But

0:40:53.840 --> 0:40:56.720
<v Speaker 5>if the surgery is happening, soon been telling the story,

0:40:57.120 --> 0:41:00.560
<v Speaker 5>even having you know, toys that allow you know, enact story.

0:41:01.040 --> 0:41:03.480
<v Speaker 5>And here's what I would say, this is not just

0:41:03.480 --> 0:41:06.520
<v Speaker 5>about the surgery, but about the general idea of transitioning

0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:12.320
<v Speaker 5>is people they don't understand that gender identity is different

0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:16.040
<v Speaker 5>than assigned sex, whether you have a penis or vagina.

0:41:16.400 --> 0:41:18.080
<v Speaker 5>When I used to be pediatrics and we'd go to

0:41:18.120 --> 0:41:21.400
<v Speaker 5>the delivery room to help with the baby. You'd see

0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:25.800
<v Speaker 5>the outer manifestation and say boy or girl. But gender

0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:31.720
<v Speaker 5>identity is actually along an entire continuum because the brain

0:41:31.880 --> 0:41:36.680
<v Speaker 5>of mammals can be hugely female, which it starts out

0:41:36.760 --> 0:41:39.759
<v Speaker 5>as in all of us. But then the way the

0:41:39.840 --> 0:41:43.600
<v Speaker 5>testosterone that's secreted by the testicles crosses the blood brain

0:41:43.640 --> 0:41:47.279
<v Speaker 5>barrier into various degrees masculinizes that brain to be a

0:41:47.440 --> 0:41:51.280
<v Speaker 5>teeny bit masculine but mostly feminine, or middle way both ways,

0:41:51.360 --> 0:41:54.720
<v Speaker 5>or all the way masculine. Your gender identity is based

0:41:54.719 --> 0:41:57.920
<v Speaker 5>on that, and it's not yes or no. It's not

0:41:57.960 --> 0:42:01.120
<v Speaker 5>like a switch on or off, you know, girl. So

0:42:01.680 --> 0:42:05.320
<v Speaker 5>just explaining it that way, even like a switch, you say,

0:42:05.600 --> 0:42:07.440
<v Speaker 5>what we look like for most of us ninety eight

0:42:07.480 --> 0:42:10.400
<v Speaker 5>percent of us outwardly when we're born, is like a switch.

0:42:10.400 --> 0:42:13.000
<v Speaker 5>It's on or off. It's boy or girl. But actually

0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:14.920
<v Speaker 5>gender identity is not like that. It's more like a

0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:19.399
<v Speaker 5>thermostat We have all these degrees, and you can't tell

0:42:19.440 --> 0:42:23.680
<v Speaker 5>a person's gender identity from the outside. And I had

0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:26.239
<v Speaker 5>one gender identity in my sign sex with something else.

0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:29.640
<v Speaker 5>So I'm in the good fortune of making sense of

0:42:29.680 --> 0:42:32.800
<v Speaker 5>that and so I'm going to make my outside match

0:42:32.840 --> 0:42:36.279
<v Speaker 5>my inside. That's the story, right, So she at three,

0:42:36.400 --> 0:42:38.879
<v Speaker 5>she's gonna get that. And when I work with kids

0:42:38.880 --> 0:42:41.720
<v Speaker 5>who are like four or five who are assigned gender

0:42:41.800 --> 0:42:43.680
<v Speaker 5>is one thing, but a gender identity is the other.

0:42:44.239 --> 0:42:48.040
<v Speaker 5>I talk to them about that and the parents say, oh,

0:42:48.080 --> 0:42:49.920
<v Speaker 5>but this is going to be challenging. Oh yeah, but

0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:52.000
<v Speaker 5>this is the way it is. And this person could

0:42:52.000 --> 0:42:56.240
<v Speaker 5>be incredibly healthy and happy if you, as their parents,

0:42:56.640 --> 0:42:59.719
<v Speaker 5>let them see. This is just what happened. And life

0:42:59.800 --> 0:43:03.200
<v Speaker 5>is about always exploring and learning and growing and this

0:43:03.280 --> 0:43:06.680
<v Speaker 5>is a beautiful thing and it works out fine. Whereas

0:43:06.680 --> 0:43:09.239
<v Speaker 5>as you know, if people say no, no, no, you

0:43:09.280 --> 0:43:11.880
<v Speaker 5>can't do that, that's when it's a problem. So is

0:43:11.880 --> 0:43:14.080
<v Speaker 5>that part of the what you've learned in your journey?

0:43:14.680 --> 0:43:18.440
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely, And making sure that having a daughter that's kind

0:43:18.480 --> 0:43:21.000
<v Speaker 6>of going through this journey as a part of my journey,

0:43:21.080 --> 0:43:24.359
<v Speaker 6>I feel it's my responsibility as her parent to make

0:43:24.400 --> 0:43:27.600
<v Speaker 6>sure that the environments that she is in, the people

0:43:28.080 --> 0:43:31.480
<v Speaker 6>have that positive outlook. And that's what I'm trying to

0:43:31.520 --> 0:43:35.080
<v Speaker 6>do as well, which is why it's just nerve wracking,

0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:37.919
<v Speaker 6>you know, raising a kid in this day and age

0:43:37.960 --> 0:43:40.760
<v Speaker 6>and I'm from We're in a small town in West Michigan,

0:43:40.920 --> 0:43:44.800
<v Speaker 6>so it's a little bit difficult, but I think exactly

0:43:44.840 --> 0:43:47.839
<v Speaker 6>like you said, creating that narrative for my family that

0:43:48.239 --> 0:43:51.640
<v Speaker 6>makes a positive space no matter what challenges come about

0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:54.520
<v Speaker 6>is a great way to put it, because no one

0:43:54.719 --> 0:43:57.440
<v Speaker 6>writes that story or that narrative but us.

0:43:57.760 --> 0:44:01.359
<v Speaker 5>Yes, exactly exactly. You know you might enjoy also and

0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:04.239
<v Speaker 5>give me these references. But there's a book called Brainstorm

0:44:04.280 --> 0:44:09.239
<v Speaker 5>I wrote for adolescents which talks about how parents can

0:44:09.600 --> 0:44:12.960
<v Speaker 5>approach when a child themselves is having a different This

0:44:13.080 --> 0:44:15.799
<v Speaker 5>is I think with sexual orientation issue, but the same thing.

0:44:15.840 --> 0:44:18.960
<v Speaker 5>You know, parents have one expectation, a kid comes out

0:44:18.960 --> 0:44:21.080
<v Speaker 5>the other way. How that works out. This would be

0:44:21.120 --> 0:44:22.759
<v Speaker 5>the flip side where you're going to come as the

0:44:22.840 --> 0:44:26.160
<v Speaker 5>parent to teach your child that what she may be

0:44:26.280 --> 0:44:31.080
<v Speaker 5>learning in school or on television is one extreme and

0:44:31.120 --> 0:44:34.080
<v Speaker 5>that is actually more subtle. And so she has the

0:44:34.160 --> 0:44:37.080
<v Speaker 5>incredible fortune of having you as a parent who will

0:44:37.120 --> 0:44:40.040
<v Speaker 5>guide her through a deeper notion of the way things

0:44:40.120 --> 0:44:42.480
<v Speaker 5>actually are, which is a beautiful gift you're going to

0:44:42.520 --> 0:44:42.799
<v Speaker 5>give her.

0:44:43.760 --> 0:44:46.520
<v Speaker 6>Thank you, I appreciate that, and I appreciate your advice,

0:44:46.560 --> 0:44:48.680
<v Speaker 6>and thank you for having me so that I could

0:44:48.719 --> 0:44:50.040
<v Speaker 6>have that conversation and get that.

0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:50.879
<v Speaker 5>I appreciate it.

0:44:51.000 --> 0:44:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Well.

0:44:51.200 --> 0:44:52.600
<v Speaker 5>I hope we'll be able to check in with you

0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:54.400
<v Speaker 5>and see how it all goes y.

0:44:54.760 --> 0:44:55.080
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:57.560
<v Speaker 3>I love that by alex Hi.

0:44:57.880 --> 0:44:58.759
<v Speaker 6>Thank you so much.

0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:02.960
<v Speaker 2>Ah, that was perfect, awesome, I'm wonderful.

0:45:03.600 --> 0:45:05.920
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, really connecting the dots here.

0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:09.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, and I loved what you said too about

0:45:09.360 --> 0:45:13.560
<v Speaker 1>gender being so separate from the actual physical sex. It

0:45:13.640 --> 0:45:17.560
<v Speaker 1>actually goes with another question that someone wrote in, but

0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:21.360
<v Speaker 1>this one really directly relates to what you were saying.

0:45:22.080 --> 0:45:26.799
<v Speaker 1>So this question is from Monica, whose child Kira, has

0:45:26.880 --> 0:45:30.480
<v Speaker 1>told Monica that they'd like to go by them pronounce so,

0:45:30.520 --> 0:45:33.840
<v Speaker 1>Monica says, Dear Chelsea love the podcast. We have a

0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:35.799
<v Speaker 1>fifteen year old daughter who came out to us as

0:45:35.840 --> 0:45:38.520
<v Speaker 1>non binary a few months ago. She tells us that

0:45:38.560 --> 0:45:41.479
<v Speaker 1>all of her friends referred to her as they slash them.

0:45:41.920 --> 0:45:44.799
<v Speaker 1>A couple of years ago, she told us she was bisexual.

0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:47.240
<v Speaker 1>I laughed and told her that it was a trend.

0:45:47.719 --> 0:45:50.960
<v Speaker 1>I didn't handle that well, obviously, trying to do this

0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:54.120
<v Speaker 1>one better. We live in Boulder, Colorado, in a very

0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:56.279
<v Speaker 1>liberal setting where It's hard to tell if this is

0:45:56.320 --> 0:45:59.160
<v Speaker 1>a trendy choice or an actual feeling that she's going with.

0:46:00.160 --> 0:46:03.839
<v Speaker 1>Her friends are either bisexual, non binary, or trans. We

0:46:03.880 --> 0:46:07.640
<v Speaker 1>love that this generation can explore their sexuality, unlike we were.

0:46:07.560 --> 0:46:10.680
<v Speaker 4>Able to do growing up. The hard part is the labels.

0:46:11.160 --> 0:46:13.160
<v Speaker 1>I feel like at this point in her life she

0:46:13.200 --> 0:46:14.960
<v Speaker 1>doesn't have to label her sexuality.

0:46:15.160 --> 0:46:15.800
<v Speaker 4>Am I wrong?

0:46:16.400 --> 0:46:18.920
<v Speaker 1>My husband and I don't feel comfortable referring to her

0:46:18.960 --> 0:46:22.320
<v Speaker 1>as they slash them. We're both very open and liberal.

0:46:22.480 --> 0:46:24.640
<v Speaker 1>We believe that people should love whomever they want to

0:46:24.680 --> 0:46:28.040
<v Speaker 1>love to find happiness. For some reason, we're having a

0:46:28.040 --> 0:46:30.799
<v Speaker 1>hard time with this one. We support her in every

0:46:30.840 --> 0:46:33.920
<v Speaker 1>single way, and whoever she wants to love would completely support.

0:46:34.239 --> 0:46:37.240
<v Speaker 1>She's single at the moment. The issue is the pronouns.

0:46:37.640 --> 0:46:39.640
<v Speaker 1>We've talked to her about this and have told her

0:46:39.640 --> 0:46:41.880
<v Speaker 1>that we support her, but we don't feel comfortable switching

0:46:41.920 --> 0:46:45.279
<v Speaker 1>pronouns at this point. She says, she understands. Are my

0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:51.279
<v Speaker 1>husband and I complete assholes? Thanks for your time, Monica.

0:46:50.320 --> 0:46:54.440
<v Speaker 5>Well, thank you Catherine for sharing Monica's question. There is

0:46:54.640 --> 0:46:59.640
<v Speaker 5>so much to say about her reflections. Yes, the first

0:47:00.360 --> 0:47:05.600
<v Speaker 5>broadest statement to make is the more you know the

0:47:05.680 --> 0:47:09.279
<v Speaker 5>less you see, and what that means is the way

0:47:09.280 --> 0:47:12.600
<v Speaker 5>the brain is constructed. It kind of has has a

0:47:12.640 --> 0:47:15.880
<v Speaker 5>way of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, and then to

0:47:15.960 --> 0:47:20.560
<v Speaker 5>speed things up, it then makes categories which have concepts

0:47:20.600 --> 0:47:23.080
<v Speaker 5>then that emerge from them in words like boy or girl.

0:47:23.800 --> 0:47:26.440
<v Speaker 5>So by the time you're you know, very young, you

0:47:26.520 --> 0:47:28.960
<v Speaker 5>figured out, okay, i'm a boy, I'm a girl. You

0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:31.160
<v Speaker 5>know that one's a boy, that one's a girl. You

0:47:31.160 --> 0:47:33.879
<v Speaker 5>know those are categories, right, and they kind of make

0:47:33.920 --> 0:47:38.560
<v Speaker 5>sense from anatomy. But as we pointed out, you're assigned sex,

0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:43.680
<v Speaker 5>which is what your external anatomy is, is actually not

0:47:43.800 --> 0:47:48.359
<v Speaker 5>always correlated with the feeling inside of who you are

0:47:48.960 --> 0:47:52.279
<v Speaker 5>or the feeling of who you're sexually aroused by. That

0:47:52.400 --> 0:47:55.080
<v Speaker 5>often comes up initially you can feel it when you're

0:47:55.080 --> 0:47:57.800
<v Speaker 5>four or five. Then it kind of goes quiet for

0:47:57.800 --> 0:47:59.600
<v Speaker 5>a little while, but then it gets really active around

0:47:59.600 --> 0:48:03.760
<v Speaker 5>eleven twelve thirteen when adolescence hits. So you know, sexual

0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:06.840
<v Speaker 5>orientation is the phrase we use for who you're sexually

0:48:06.880 --> 0:48:10.640
<v Speaker 5>attracted to, and so it can be for people of

0:48:11.200 --> 0:48:14.719
<v Speaker 5>your same assigned sex, and you call that one thing

0:48:15.200 --> 0:48:18.359
<v Speaker 5>or different assigned sex, and we call that something else

0:48:18.880 --> 0:48:22.080
<v Speaker 5>and so being open to your sexual orientation who you're

0:48:22.080 --> 0:48:24.840
<v Speaker 5>attracted to, that's one thing. So when you use a

0:48:24.840 --> 0:48:28.920
<v Speaker 5>word like bisexual, that's different than the they them stories,

0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:31.440
<v Speaker 5>So that should we should just be really clear about that.

0:48:31.800 --> 0:48:34.319
<v Speaker 5>So the day them is about gender identity. What I'd

0:48:34.360 --> 0:48:36.440
<v Speaker 5>like to do if Monica Herod ask her, but I'll

0:48:36.480 --> 0:48:39.440
<v Speaker 5>ask you, Catherine and you Chelsea about this. You know,

0:48:39.520 --> 0:48:42.880
<v Speaker 5>people have asked me to put my gender identity in

0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:45.360
<v Speaker 5>my little box at the bottom of a zoom call

0:48:45.560 --> 0:48:48.839
<v Speaker 5>or any kind of platform. My mom and I thought

0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:52.160
<v Speaker 5>about it, and I thought, you know, I actually don't

0:48:52.200 --> 0:48:55.640
<v Speaker 5>feel like particularly a he. I don't feel like a she.

0:48:56.640 --> 0:49:00.719
<v Speaker 5>I don't feel like a they. Actually I barely feel

0:49:00.760 --> 0:49:03.319
<v Speaker 5>like a Dan. I know that's kind of an illusion too.

0:49:03.400 --> 0:49:07.480
<v Speaker 5>So I've been putting ABCD, which is like an abbreviation

0:49:07.600 --> 0:49:11.040
<v Speaker 5>for a body called Dan, you know, because even that's

0:49:11.040 --> 0:49:13.840
<v Speaker 5>an illusion. You know, we're all kind of manifestations of

0:49:13.880 --> 0:49:16.560
<v Speaker 5>the same essence popping up in a body for about

0:49:16.560 --> 0:49:17.600
<v Speaker 5>one hundred years.

0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:23.000
<v Speaker 2>So one hundred Jesus Dan. I mean, yeah, well that's

0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:23.760
<v Speaker 2>a long time.

0:49:24.000 --> 0:49:29.160
<v Speaker 5>I know, I get superstitious. Okay, fine, So anyway, let's

0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:33.040
<v Speaker 5>just put it that way, you know. So I say

0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:37.440
<v Speaker 5>that because the world needs us to broaden our identity

0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:40.439
<v Speaker 5>from just the bodies we're in and realize in terms

0:49:40.480 --> 0:49:44.640
<v Speaker 5>of racial justice, social justice issues, and racism. You know,

0:49:44.680 --> 0:49:48.680
<v Speaker 5>we're part of one human family, and also we're part

0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:50.440
<v Speaker 5>of the family of all living beings in terms of

0:49:50.480 --> 0:49:54.839
<v Speaker 5>what we're destroying biodiversity in the climate. So yeah, they say,

0:49:54.880 --> 0:49:57.560
<v Speaker 5>say whether you're he or she or they, and I go, well,

0:49:57.560 --> 0:50:00.160
<v Speaker 5>actually I want to say none of the above. There's

0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:02.520
<v Speaker 5>a lot to write, and then it gets people angry.

0:50:02.920 --> 0:50:06.600
<v Speaker 5>So when I don't put it on my little name tag,

0:50:07.320 --> 0:50:10.480
<v Speaker 5>it's not it's not because I'm being like dismissive of it.

0:50:11.320 --> 0:50:14.640
<v Speaker 5>I actually I don't want to be put into buying.

0:50:14.760 --> 0:50:15.960
<v Speaker 5>So I don't know how do the two of you

0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:18.160
<v Speaker 5>feel when people ask you to do that, because it's

0:50:18.280 --> 0:50:20.480
<v Speaker 5>it's a personal, very personal thing.

0:50:21.200 --> 0:50:24.120
<v Speaker 2>Catherine, you identify, right, you label that I know on

0:50:24.160 --> 0:50:25.520
<v Speaker 2>your emails.

0:50:25.120 --> 0:50:26.359
<v Speaker 3>And yeah, I do.

0:50:26.520 --> 0:50:30.040
<v Speaker 1>I do it really as a support for people who

0:50:30.600 --> 0:50:32.520
<v Speaker 1>may not use traditional pronouns.

0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:35.080
<v Speaker 4>And it was tricky for me in the beginning.

0:50:35.120 --> 0:50:37.879
<v Speaker 1>I have a few friends who are non binary, and

0:50:38.200 --> 0:50:41.640
<v Speaker 1>it was tricky in the beginning, and now just after

0:50:41.960 --> 0:50:45.480
<v Speaker 1>practicing it sort of suddenly feels like the most natural

0:50:45.480 --> 0:50:48.600
<v Speaker 1>thing in the world. Like said to my husband's day.

0:50:48.840 --> 0:50:52.239
<v Speaker 1>You know, we're going to our friend Ash's birthday and

0:50:52.800 --> 0:50:56.040
<v Speaker 1>it's at you know, seven o'clock, and they want us

0:50:56.080 --> 0:50:57.719
<v Speaker 1>to be there. Da da da da, And it just

0:50:57.840 --> 0:50:59.960
<v Speaker 1>suddenly feels like the most natural thing in the world

0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:02.960
<v Speaker 1>to use those pronouns for someone else. It takes a

0:51:03.000 --> 0:51:07.120
<v Speaker 1>little bit of practice, but you can come around.

0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:07.720
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:12.719
<v Speaker 2>And more importantly, it's important to respect people's decisions about themselves.

0:51:12.760 --> 0:51:16.120
<v Speaker 2>Whether it's a fad or a trend. That's not your

0:51:16.120 --> 0:51:19.000
<v Speaker 2>decision either. Even though you're a parent, you don't get

0:51:19.000 --> 0:51:21.120
<v Speaker 2>to decide if it's a fad or a trend. But

0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:25.600
<v Speaker 2>respecting your child's decision and respecting their choices goes a

0:51:25.640 --> 0:51:29.160
<v Speaker 2>long way into the future of your relationship with your child.

0:51:29.400 --> 0:51:31.640
<v Speaker 2>When you give them agency and you give them license

0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:33.719
<v Speaker 2>to be themselves, then it's not going to be a

0:51:33.800 --> 0:51:36.680
<v Speaker 2>problem if in five years she's like he or she

0:51:37.239 --> 0:51:39.880
<v Speaker 2>or they decides that they want to be referred to

0:51:39.960 --> 0:51:42.279
<v Speaker 2>as a girl again, or that they're not they don't

0:51:42.320 --> 0:51:44.839
<v Speaker 2>feel non binary or any of it. But I think

0:51:44.880 --> 0:51:47.120
<v Speaker 2>you are doing your child a disservice when you're not

0:51:47.200 --> 0:51:51.160
<v Speaker 2>respecting something. That is not an easy thing for them

0:51:51.200 --> 0:51:53.920
<v Speaker 2>to say. It's not easy for that. You have to

0:51:53.960 --> 0:51:56.680
<v Speaker 2>think about that, you know, and you can say you're supportive,

0:51:56.760 --> 0:51:59.279
<v Speaker 2>but that you're not. You don't feel comfortable calling them

0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:01.920
<v Speaker 2>they is actually not really being supportive.

0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:03.080
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

0:52:03.120 --> 0:52:06.000
<v Speaker 1>And the other thing too, is it's not a huge

0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:09.640
<v Speaker 1>thing to give away. You know, it's not changing who

0:52:09.680 --> 0:52:14.560
<v Speaker 1>your child is fundamentally. It's not a wild leap to say,

0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:16.200
<v Speaker 1>you know what, I'm just going to go with this.

0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:19.040
<v Speaker 1>I'm going to say they them. I might slip up,

0:52:19.080 --> 0:52:21.759
<v Speaker 1>but I'm going to try my best. And you know,

0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:25.160
<v Speaker 1>supporting your child's in whatever way you can. And like

0:52:25.280 --> 0:52:27.720
<v Speaker 1>Chelsea said, these things.

0:52:27.480 --> 0:52:29.480
<v Speaker 4>Can pass or maybe they won't.

0:52:29.719 --> 0:52:32.560
<v Speaker 1>And you're allowing your child to discover who they are

0:52:32.880 --> 0:52:35.920
<v Speaker 1>by supporting who they are right now, because that is

0:52:35.960 --> 0:52:38.520
<v Speaker 1>always going to change. Whether their pronouns change or not,

0:52:39.040 --> 0:52:40.400
<v Speaker 1>they're going to continue to change.

0:52:40.480 --> 0:52:40.719
<v Speaker 7>Yeah.

0:52:40.760 --> 0:52:44.920
<v Speaker 5>I concur with what you're both saying. And I think

0:52:44.960 --> 0:52:49.680
<v Speaker 5>it becomes challenging when parents get really upset. When some schools,

0:52:49.960 --> 0:52:52.560
<v Speaker 5>like here in Los Angeles, they'll have a whole day

0:52:52.600 --> 0:52:56.759
<v Speaker 5>of discussing gender identity and that you have choices of

0:52:56.920 --> 0:52:59.400
<v Speaker 5>names you used and you should look inward, which I

0:52:59.480 --> 0:53:02.960
<v Speaker 5>think is actually fantastic. And some parents get all agitated

0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:06.840
<v Speaker 5>about it because they think it is making a child

0:53:07.120 --> 0:53:11.040
<v Speaker 5>be confused, but it's actually, I think just informing a

0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:15.960
<v Speaker 5>child and freeing a child like Monica's daughter is or

0:53:16.560 --> 0:53:18.040
<v Speaker 5>I don't know if you do use the words daughter

0:53:18.080 --> 0:53:22.080
<v Speaker 5>here Monica's child. Let's say that way. So we have

0:53:22.120 --> 0:53:25.000
<v Speaker 5>a moment where as a parent you can take a

0:53:25.000 --> 0:53:26.960
<v Speaker 5>deep breath and say, if your child comes to you,

0:53:27.160 --> 0:53:32.600
<v Speaker 5>to empower them, to explore the actual biological reality that

0:53:32.840 --> 0:53:38.520
<v Speaker 5>gender identity is independent of assigned sex at birth. People.

0:53:38.560 --> 0:53:41.160
<v Speaker 5>I remember when I was a kid where that wasn't

0:53:41.200 --> 0:53:45.600
<v Speaker 5>a part of our discussion. They suffered so much. And

0:53:45.640 --> 0:53:49.000
<v Speaker 5>when schools introduced this or this podcast or all the

0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:51.399
<v Speaker 5>ways we can just make it a part of our conversation.

0:53:52.640 --> 0:53:57.719
<v Speaker 5>It is a biological fact that gender identity develops in

0:53:57.800 --> 0:54:01.960
<v Speaker 5>its own way that can be independent in an extreme

0:54:02.080 --> 0:54:05.759
<v Speaker 5>or subtlely or aligned with yours signed sex. So to

0:54:06.440 --> 0:54:09.480
<v Speaker 5>name it as something that's very real in our lives,

0:54:09.719 --> 0:54:12.880
<v Speaker 5>I think is going to really help with everyone. Even

0:54:12.880 --> 0:54:15.840
<v Speaker 5>if your gender identity matches your signed sex, You're going

0:54:15.920 --> 0:54:18.840
<v Speaker 5>to understand that there are other people where that's not

0:54:18.920 --> 0:54:23.600
<v Speaker 5>the case, and instead of feeling uncomfortable like Monica feels,

0:54:23.600 --> 0:54:26.399
<v Speaker 5>which you know, we feel uncomfortable when things don't match

0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:31.000
<v Speaker 5>your expectations. So I hope listening to this conversation will

0:54:31.000 --> 0:54:36.680
<v Speaker 5>help Monica and her child's bother to feel we're learning

0:54:36.680 --> 0:54:39.759
<v Speaker 5>something to and to be lifelong learners is a really

0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:43.480
<v Speaker 5>important stance today.

0:54:45.520 --> 0:54:50.320
<v Speaker 1>Our last color today is Katie. Katie says, Dear Chelsea,

0:54:50.960 --> 0:54:53.799
<v Speaker 1>the last nearly two years of my life have been

0:54:53.840 --> 0:54:57.959
<v Speaker 1>the most intense, devastating and transformational time of my entire

0:54:58.000 --> 0:55:01.640
<v Speaker 1>twenty one years. In member of twenty twenty, my older

0:55:01.680 --> 0:55:05.120
<v Speaker 1>brother and only sibling died extremely suddenly from a brain

0:55:05.160 --> 0:55:08.719
<v Speaker 1>aneurysm at twenty two years old. Needless to say, this

0:55:08.840 --> 0:55:12.040
<v Speaker 1>loss has been extremely difficult to navigate and my entire

0:55:12.080 --> 0:55:14.200
<v Speaker 1>outlook on life has completely changed.

0:55:14.800 --> 0:55:15.840
<v Speaker 4>I know you were very.

0:55:15.680 --> 0:55:17.680
<v Speaker 1>Young when you lost your brother, and I feel as

0:55:17.680 --> 0:55:19.880
<v Speaker 1>though we were similar in how that type of loss

0:55:19.920 --> 0:55:23.520
<v Speaker 1>affected us. After the first few months of complete shock

0:55:23.680 --> 0:55:25.880
<v Speaker 1>and fear that I would lose my parents to heartbreak

0:55:25.880 --> 0:55:28.239
<v Speaker 1>over the death of their son, I started to get

0:55:28.280 --> 0:55:30.960
<v Speaker 1>really angry at the world, which was completely unlike my

0:55:31.000 --> 0:55:33.480
<v Speaker 1>old self. I have done a lot of therapy to

0:55:33.560 --> 0:55:36.320
<v Speaker 1>overcome some of that anger, but I still struggled daily

0:55:36.360 --> 0:55:40.760
<v Speaker 1>to comprehend how my smart, wonderful, and seemingly perfectly healthy

0:55:40.800 --> 0:55:44.399
<v Speaker 1>brother is gone and never coming back. I also find

0:55:44.440 --> 0:55:47.480
<v Speaker 1>meeting new people to be emotionally draining, as sometimes the

0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:51.160
<v Speaker 1>do you have siblings question comes up, and without fail

0:55:51.360 --> 0:55:54.719
<v Speaker 1>this always makes me spiral. I feel nervous opening up

0:55:54.760 --> 0:55:56.839
<v Speaker 1>about my brother because I feel like people in their

0:55:56.840 --> 0:56:00.000
<v Speaker 1>early twenties are not equipped to talk about loss and death.

0:56:00.440 --> 0:56:03.520
<v Speaker 1>It's almost taboo in some ways. What has helped you

0:56:03.600 --> 0:56:07.200
<v Speaker 1>with accepting and understanding such severe and sudden loss at

0:56:07.280 --> 0:56:09.920
<v Speaker 1>such a young age, And how do I combat how

0:56:09.920 --> 0:56:11.960
<v Speaker 1>his death has caused me to struggle with coping in

0:56:12.000 --> 0:56:13.200
<v Speaker 1>other areas of my life?

0:56:13.520 --> 0:56:19.120
<v Speaker 3>Katie, Hi, Katie, Hi, Hi Katie.

0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:23.000
<v Speaker 2>It's your lucky day because my psychiatrist Dan is here

0:56:23.040 --> 0:56:25.880
<v Speaker 2>with us as our guest today. Oh wow, who helped

0:56:25.920 --> 0:56:29.000
<v Speaker 2>guide me through my grief and my new reality which

0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:31.239
<v Speaker 2>I had. You know a lot of delayed grief, So

0:56:31.320 --> 0:56:34.120
<v Speaker 2>it's good that you're talking about it not so long

0:56:34.200 --> 0:56:37.320
<v Speaker 2>after it's happening, and that you're facing these issues because

0:56:37.320 --> 0:56:41.879
<v Speaker 2>it's it is a big, big, unexpected obstacle that has

0:56:42.000 --> 0:56:44.120
<v Speaker 2>happened to you, you know, and it's not something that

0:56:44.120 --> 0:56:46.800
<v Speaker 2>you're not going to get through, but it's so difficult

0:56:46.880 --> 0:56:49.000
<v Speaker 2>and only other people who have lost the sibling can

0:56:49.040 --> 0:56:52.600
<v Speaker 2>really relate or understand. So Dan, do you want to

0:56:52.640 --> 0:56:55.520
<v Speaker 2>take the lead on this and I'll chime in sure.

0:56:55.880 --> 0:56:58.720
<v Speaker 5>First of all, Katie, thank you so much for reaching

0:56:58.760 --> 0:57:03.000
<v Speaker 5>out to Chelsea to really share your experience and share

0:57:03.040 --> 0:57:07.160
<v Speaker 5>your question. I'll ask you, when you were actually putting

0:57:07.200 --> 0:57:09.880
<v Speaker 5>this question together and sending it off, what were you

0:57:10.000 --> 0:57:14.440
<v Speaker 5>feeling inside of you that allowed you to feel like

0:57:14.480 --> 0:57:17.360
<v Speaker 5>you could articulate it in a sense go public with it.

0:57:17.640 --> 0:57:19.280
<v Speaker 5>What was going on inside of you?

0:57:20.160 --> 0:57:24.840
<v Speaker 7>It was, honestly, Chelsea, because I watched Evolution with my mom,

0:57:25.160 --> 0:57:27.439
<v Speaker 7>and I don't think either of us had ever really

0:57:27.440 --> 0:57:30.800
<v Speaker 7>seen somebody talk about death like so raw and just

0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:34.120
<v Speaker 7>so open like that. And I don't know, it just

0:57:34.160 --> 0:57:36.120
<v Speaker 7>like really spoke to me and we didn't say a

0:57:36.160 --> 0:57:38.920
<v Speaker 7>word the entire time. All we did was cry and laugh,

0:57:39.760 --> 0:57:42.160
<v Speaker 7>and yeah, I don't know. I just felt so kind

0:57:42.160 --> 0:57:44.200
<v Speaker 7>of like I felt empowered by it, and I was like,

0:57:44.200 --> 0:57:46.080
<v Speaker 7>you know, what, I'd love to talk to her because

0:57:46.120 --> 0:57:48.280
<v Speaker 7>there was a lot of parallels between what you were

0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:51.800
<v Speaker 7>saying and what I've definitely been feeling, and so yeah,

0:57:51.840 --> 0:57:53.840
<v Speaker 7>I definitely felt like there was like a bit of

0:57:53.840 --> 0:57:55.800
<v Speaker 7>a connection there. And like you guys said, like, not

0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:58.480
<v Speaker 7>a lot of people go through what I've gone through

0:57:58.520 --> 0:58:02.160
<v Speaker 7>and Chelsea has, So yeah, definitely that was empowering for

0:58:02.240 --> 0:58:04.120
<v Speaker 7>me when.

0:58:03.960 --> 0:58:07.880
<v Speaker 5>You saw that someone could really look at the death

0:58:07.920 --> 0:58:10.640
<v Speaker 5>of a sibling. In this case, you both shared the

0:58:10.680 --> 0:58:14.640
<v Speaker 5>loss of your brothers. Was there something in what Chelsea

0:58:14.720 --> 0:58:18.200
<v Speaker 5>shared an evolution that especially spoke to you?

0:58:18.800 --> 0:58:22.160
<v Speaker 7>Yeah. Absolutely. I think the main thing was like the anger,

0:58:22.440 --> 0:58:25.000
<v Speaker 7>because I was never an angry person. I was always

0:58:25.040 --> 0:58:27.600
<v Speaker 7>really calm, you know, quite put together and everything, and

0:58:27.640 --> 0:58:30.160
<v Speaker 7>then I started to have these feelings of anger when

0:58:30.200 --> 0:58:33.760
<v Speaker 7>the numbness started to go away, and it just was

0:58:33.800 --> 0:58:35.800
<v Speaker 7>so unlike me, and I was just so kind of

0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:38.560
<v Speaker 7>mad at the world like that it took him because

0:58:38.600 --> 0:58:42.600
<v Speaker 7>he was just such a wonderful, kind human and he

0:58:42.640 --> 0:58:45.040
<v Speaker 7>truly just like he was just such a light in

0:58:45.040 --> 0:58:48.000
<v Speaker 7>this world and it just felt so wrong. And so

0:58:48.160 --> 0:58:50.200
<v Speaker 7>the anger that she had and how that leaks into

0:58:50.200 --> 0:58:52.440
<v Speaker 7>other areas of your life I think that's kind of

0:58:52.480 --> 0:58:55.560
<v Speaker 7>where I drew like a lot, like I just I

0:58:55.680 --> 0:58:58.040
<v Speaker 7>just totally connected to that because it was like, WHOA,

0:58:58.400 --> 0:59:01.840
<v Speaker 7>this is affecting how I see every area of my life,

0:59:02.000 --> 0:59:04.520
<v Speaker 7>not just death and loss. It was you know, in

0:59:04.600 --> 0:59:09.120
<v Speaker 7>school with friends everything. Then bitterness too when people talked

0:59:09.120 --> 0:59:11.919
<v Speaker 7>about like their siblings, and it was like, I'm self

0:59:11.920 --> 0:59:13.960
<v Speaker 7>aware enough to know, like, it's not right. I don't

0:59:14.000 --> 0:59:16.000
<v Speaker 7>want to be bitter about other people because they should

0:59:16.040 --> 0:59:18.440
<v Speaker 7>get to express their love for their siblings that are alive,

0:59:18.520 --> 0:59:21.320
<v Speaker 7>and that makes me happy. I'm still happy for them,

0:59:21.440 --> 0:59:24.520
<v Speaker 7>but I couldn't help but still feel bitter, you know,

0:59:24.680 --> 0:59:28.040
<v Speaker 7>and angry. So definitely those feelings of anger that Chelsea

0:59:28.120 --> 0:59:31.520
<v Speaker 7>talked about, I definitely connected to that a lot. That's

0:59:31.560 --> 0:59:33.360
<v Speaker 7>what made me start to realize WHOA like I got

0:59:33.400 --> 0:59:35.760
<v Speaker 7>to I have to seek out like therapy and stuff

0:59:35.800 --> 0:59:38.080
<v Speaker 7>like that because I tried to do it myself for

0:59:38.200 --> 0:59:41.000
<v Speaker 7>I think the first eight months, and yeah, it just

0:59:41.120 --> 0:59:43.959
<v Speaker 7>wasn't working and I could just see down the line

0:59:43.960 --> 0:59:45.120
<v Speaker 7>it would just start to get worse.

0:59:45.640 --> 0:59:47.240
<v Speaker 2>I want to just jump in and just say, you

0:59:47.280 --> 0:59:50.040
<v Speaker 2>have such a huge opportunity for growth right now for

0:59:50.160 --> 0:59:53.280
<v Speaker 2>you to be facing this so soon after it happened,

0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:55.960
<v Speaker 2>means like you have such a bigger advantage, Like I

0:59:55.960 --> 0:59:58.479
<v Speaker 2>didn't face this. I went thirty years without being able

0:59:58.480 --> 1:00:01.160
<v Speaker 2>to deal with my emotions, you know. So you're so

1:00:01.320 --> 1:00:03.439
<v Speaker 2>young and you're vibrant, and you're going to be able

1:00:03.440 --> 1:00:05.160
<v Speaker 2>to get through this. And I just want to say

1:00:05.160 --> 1:00:07.560
<v Speaker 2>something that's so important for you to hear. It's like,

1:00:08.120 --> 1:00:10.160
<v Speaker 2>when you think of how amazing your brother was and

1:00:10.160 --> 1:00:12.640
<v Speaker 2>what a light he was in this world, he would

1:00:12.840 --> 1:00:15.520
<v Speaker 2>hate to see you in pain. He would hate to

1:00:15.560 --> 1:00:16.640
<v Speaker 2>see you feeling bitter.

1:00:16.960 --> 1:00:18.160
<v Speaker 3>He would not want that.

1:00:18.640 --> 1:00:21.520
<v Speaker 2>So in honor of him, you've got to do the

1:00:21.520 --> 1:00:23.920
<v Speaker 2>work to get yourself out of that anger and bitterness,

1:00:23.960 --> 1:00:26.080
<v Speaker 2>because you want to be able to celebrate a life

1:00:26.520 --> 1:00:29.440
<v Speaker 2>that he had and live your life with him in it,

1:00:29.520 --> 1:00:32.320
<v Speaker 2>in honor of him and with him, because he's still

1:00:32.360 --> 1:00:33.200
<v Speaker 2>with you.

1:00:32.880 --> 1:00:33.080
<v Speaker 3>You know.

1:00:33.200 --> 1:00:36.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, just because he's gone doesn't mean he's gone from you.

1:00:36.920 --> 1:00:40.000
<v Speaker 2>He's still within you and your parents, and that is

1:00:40.160 --> 1:00:42.520
<v Speaker 2>a beautiful thing, and that is the like that you

1:00:42.560 --> 1:00:45.280
<v Speaker 2>should think about getting to spread when you move forward

1:00:45.280 --> 1:00:45.960
<v Speaker 2>in your life.

1:00:46.240 --> 1:00:49.680
<v Speaker 7>Yeah. Absolutely, And he truly would be so unhappy, he

1:00:49.720 --> 1:00:52.120
<v Speaker 7>would be so upset if he saw like this affect

1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:54.880
<v Speaker 7>us long term because again like just such a selfless

1:00:54.960 --> 1:00:57.720
<v Speaker 7>human being, and he just would not he would he'd

1:00:57.720 --> 1:01:00.240
<v Speaker 7>be angry with us, to be honest, if we let

1:01:00.240 --> 1:01:02.560
<v Speaker 7>it get us down for a really long time, he

1:01:02.600 --> 1:01:04.600
<v Speaker 7>would not be happy with us for sure.

1:01:06.000 --> 1:01:10.880
<v Speaker 5>It's such a beautiful invitation of Katie that you're inviting

1:01:10.960 --> 1:01:14.280
<v Speaker 5>us to really look this question what helped? And Chelsea,

1:01:14.440 --> 1:01:18.480
<v Speaker 5>you're bringing up, you know, this notion of what the sibling,

1:01:18.520 --> 1:01:22.320
<v Speaker 5>what the brother would actually want for you. The experience

1:01:22.360 --> 1:01:25.600
<v Speaker 5>of grief, which is the word we use for when

1:01:25.640 --> 1:01:28.960
<v Speaker 5>someone we love that's really important our life dies or

1:01:29.040 --> 1:01:32.680
<v Speaker 5>goes away and we can't reach them. That loss is huge.

1:01:32.800 --> 1:01:38.280
<v Speaker 5>So grief goes through stages and it really invites you

1:01:38.480 --> 1:01:42.200
<v Speaker 5>to bring into awareness all the different feelings you're having.

1:01:42.520 --> 1:01:45.600
<v Speaker 5>And as Chelsea points out, you know you are doing that, Katie,

1:01:45.600 --> 1:01:50.080
<v Speaker 5>and your notion of self awareness is really important and

1:01:49.520 --> 1:01:52.280
<v Speaker 5>there are things you can do to expand that. You know,

1:01:52.320 --> 1:01:55.640
<v Speaker 5>with Chelsea we would do meditation in particular, this thing

1:01:55.720 --> 1:01:58.320
<v Speaker 5>called the wheel of awareness. You can get this book

1:01:58.320 --> 1:02:02.120
<v Speaker 5>called Aware or Becoming Aware, the workbook where you will

1:02:02.200 --> 1:02:05.440
<v Speaker 5>learn to actually enrich that ability to be aware and

1:02:05.480 --> 1:02:08.400
<v Speaker 5>that can help the grief process. To just let the

1:02:08.440 --> 1:02:11.920
<v Speaker 5>anger there be in awareness. You don't have to do

1:02:11.960 --> 1:02:15.160
<v Speaker 5>anything with it. It can just teach you something. The

1:02:15.240 --> 1:02:18.080
<v Speaker 5>other emotions that are really basic when something like this

1:02:18.160 --> 1:02:23.120
<v Speaker 5>happens are sadness and fear. So a loss like this

1:02:23.240 --> 1:02:26.400
<v Speaker 5>at a young age that can rock your world because

1:02:26.760 --> 1:02:30.360
<v Speaker 5>you don't expect someone young to die. You expect someone older,

1:02:30.440 --> 1:02:35.080
<v Speaker 5>way older to die. So when something unexpected like that happens,

1:02:35.160 --> 1:02:37.240
<v Speaker 5>it can lead to fear, It can lead to sadness,

1:02:37.240 --> 1:02:40.160
<v Speaker 5>and it can lead to anger where the fear is like,

1:02:40.320 --> 1:02:43.160
<v Speaker 5>oh my god, things aren't safe, nothing, I can't rely

1:02:43.240 --> 1:02:46.760
<v Speaker 5>on anything. The sadness is there was a connection that's

1:02:46.840 --> 1:02:49.120
<v Speaker 5>ripped from me, and I have such a longing to

1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:52.400
<v Speaker 5>be with my brother, but it's it's not there, when

1:02:52.400 --> 1:02:55.440
<v Speaker 5>in fact it's just like Chelsea said, he's inside you,

1:02:55.520 --> 1:02:59.240
<v Speaker 5>but him being alive in his body now that's changed.

1:02:59.280 --> 1:03:02.040
<v Speaker 5>So you want to deal with that feeling. You can't

1:03:02.080 --> 1:03:04.360
<v Speaker 5>just call him up and talk to his actual self.

1:03:04.400 --> 1:03:07.040
<v Speaker 5>You can deal with the inner self of your brother.

1:03:07.680 --> 1:03:11.160
<v Speaker 5>And the anger, you know, is about something is wrong

1:03:12.320 --> 1:03:14.880
<v Speaker 5>that needs to be righted right. So anger is like

1:03:14.920 --> 1:03:18.840
<v Speaker 5>this drive to correct you know sadness is like a

1:03:18.920 --> 1:03:21.720
<v Speaker 5>drive to connect, and in many ways, fear is a

1:03:21.800 --> 1:03:25.440
<v Speaker 5>drive to protect. Right, those are the three in the brain.

1:03:25.520 --> 1:03:29.040
<v Speaker 5>They're deep, deep in the brain, so they're really really foundational.

1:03:29.080 --> 1:03:31.840
<v Speaker 5>As you're pointing out, the anger then starts spreading over

1:03:31.880 --> 1:03:36.040
<v Speaker 5>all these things. So the idea of finding a practice,

1:03:36.120 --> 1:03:39.600
<v Speaker 5>whether it's in therapy or doing like a meditation that

1:03:39.760 --> 1:03:43.600
<v Speaker 5>gives you time to just be with your emotions. And

1:03:43.640 --> 1:03:47.360
<v Speaker 5>then the grief process once you give yourself that respect

1:03:47.400 --> 1:03:50.720
<v Speaker 5>to just feel what you feel, talk about it, write

1:03:50.720 --> 1:03:54.440
<v Speaker 5>in a journal about it, do meditative, reflect the reflection

1:03:54.560 --> 1:03:57.919
<v Speaker 5>on it. Then it will have its natural course. Don't

1:03:57.960 --> 1:04:02.200
<v Speaker 5>worry about the timing, but do give respect to all

1:04:02.200 --> 1:04:05.320
<v Speaker 5>the emotions are there, and they will then take their

1:04:05.400 --> 1:04:09.640
<v Speaker 5>natural path. And in many ways, grief as it goes

1:04:09.680 --> 1:04:13.880
<v Speaker 5>forward becomes meaning making. That is, you say, I didn't

1:04:14.120 --> 1:04:18.280
<v Speaker 5>plan for my brother to die, but my brother would

1:04:18.400 --> 1:04:22.040
<v Speaker 5>want me to actually make sense of how this has

1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:25.760
<v Speaker 5>impacted me. And as Chelsea has done, you know, with

1:04:25.840 --> 1:04:31.040
<v Speaker 5>her wonderful work. Now to take a loss that really

1:04:31.400 --> 1:04:34.640
<v Speaker 5>as you've shared with the world, Chelsea, you know, your

1:04:34.680 --> 1:04:37.600
<v Speaker 5>way of dealing with that pain was to shut it

1:04:37.760 --> 1:04:40.600
<v Speaker 5>off the emotions, but now to share with the world.

1:04:40.920 --> 1:04:45.440
<v Speaker 5>You don't know, Katie, how the sadness and really profound

1:04:45.600 --> 1:04:50.360
<v Speaker 5>loss of your brother dying unexpectedly like this. It was

1:04:50.400 --> 1:04:53.920
<v Speaker 5>no one's fault, aneurisms happened. All the ways that you

1:04:53.960 --> 1:04:57.640
<v Speaker 5>can bring the emotional learning from this will be a

1:04:57.760 --> 1:05:00.520
<v Speaker 5>meaning that you can make this. There's a number of

1:05:00.600 --> 1:05:04.840
<v Speaker 5>things about hope and about joy that there are wonderful

1:05:04.840 --> 1:05:06.520
<v Speaker 5>books on this. There's it called a book called the

1:05:06.520 --> 1:05:08.520
<v Speaker 5>Book of Hope and a Book of Joy that I

1:05:08.520 --> 1:05:11.040
<v Speaker 5>think you'd love because what it says is that the

1:05:11.200 --> 1:05:14.280
<v Speaker 5>sorrows in the world, whether it's a personal loss or

1:05:14.320 --> 1:05:16.960
<v Speaker 5>the loss in biodiversity with what we're facing the climate,

1:05:17.040 --> 1:05:20.040
<v Speaker 5>or the challenges of social justice, all these can get

1:05:20.120 --> 1:05:23.680
<v Speaker 5>us all angry, sad, fearful. And what we want to

1:05:23.720 --> 1:05:27.120
<v Speaker 5>do is take those emotions and allow ourselves to feel

1:05:27.160 --> 1:05:30.760
<v Speaker 5>them fully, but then really keep hope alive, a kind

1:05:30.800 --> 1:05:34.160
<v Speaker 5>of active hope that a writer named Joanna Masi calls

1:05:34.160 --> 1:05:38.040
<v Speaker 5>it active hope, where you're really turning that pain into

1:05:38.080 --> 1:05:41.360
<v Speaker 5>actually something positive in the world, and not only having hope,

1:05:41.400 --> 1:05:43.280
<v Speaker 5>but having a sense of joy. And I think if

1:05:43.320 --> 1:05:47.440
<v Speaker 5>your brother were watching us now and he said, my

1:05:47.640 --> 1:05:53.240
<v Speaker 5>dear sister Katie can hold on to hope and can

1:05:53.280 --> 1:05:56.560
<v Speaker 5>be joyful in this life. What would he feel about that?

1:05:58.000 --> 1:06:02.520
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, that's a really good point, Alice Tears, That's really good. Yeah,

1:06:02.560 --> 1:06:06.120
<v Speaker 7>I honestly like you bring up a really good point too,

1:06:06.200 --> 1:06:08.600
<v Speaker 7>in the fact that, like I have grown, like so

1:06:08.880 --> 1:06:11.400
<v Speaker 7>much from this loss, and like the way I view

1:06:11.440 --> 1:06:15.480
<v Speaker 7>the world in good ways too, and my desire to

1:06:15.520 --> 1:06:17.640
<v Speaker 7>make my parents proud, even though I know I would

1:06:17.640 --> 1:06:19.800
<v Speaker 7>make them proud if I did nothing, because they're just

1:06:19.840 --> 1:06:22.800
<v Speaker 7>the most wonderful people in the entire world. But yeah,

1:06:22.840 --> 1:06:25.400
<v Speaker 7>like he really has allowed me to see the world

1:06:25.440 --> 1:06:28.280
<v Speaker 7>so much clearer, and I just feel like I'm going

1:06:28.360 --> 1:06:31.400
<v Speaker 7>to do such great things because I've grown so much

1:06:31.440 --> 1:06:34.440
<v Speaker 7>from this And yeah, you're right, like it is it

1:06:34.520 --> 1:06:37.080
<v Speaker 7>is a choice too to wake up every single day

1:06:37.160 --> 1:06:40.520
<v Speaker 7>and you know, choose happiness despite all the pain. And

1:06:40.560 --> 1:06:43.120
<v Speaker 7>that's what I've really been working on, is just choosing

1:06:43.200 --> 1:06:44.959
<v Speaker 7>to be happy because at the end of the day,

1:06:45.280 --> 1:06:48.160
<v Speaker 7>you know, like the random cruelty of him being taken away,

1:06:48.840 --> 1:06:51.480
<v Speaker 7>it has to be a choice for me to keep

1:06:51.520 --> 1:06:53.320
<v Speaker 7>going and to do it for him and to do

1:06:53.360 --> 1:06:56.000
<v Speaker 7>it for my parents. And I find that that's really

1:06:56.000 --> 1:06:59.720
<v Speaker 7>helped me too, is like letting myself feel those emotions

1:06:59.800 --> 1:07:02.240
<v Speaker 7>and yeah, growing from it, like you said, like it

1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:03.680
<v Speaker 7>is there's power in that.

1:07:04.280 --> 1:07:08.520
<v Speaker 2>There's also something Dan taught me. Losing somebody is like

1:07:08.560 --> 1:07:12.000
<v Speaker 2>a robbery. You've been robbed, you know, and that's how

1:07:12.080 --> 1:07:15.560
<v Speaker 2>it feels. It feels you're violated and you cannot make

1:07:15.600 --> 1:07:17.800
<v Speaker 2>sense of it. But are you going to spend your

1:07:17.920 --> 1:07:22.320
<v Speaker 2>entire life harboring such anger towards those robbers?

1:07:22.360 --> 1:07:24.920
<v Speaker 3>You know what I mean? Because are you going to

1:07:25.000 --> 1:07:27.080
<v Speaker 3>spend your energy doing that? No, you're not.

1:07:27.320 --> 1:07:29.320
<v Speaker 2>You want to be a light for your parents. You

1:07:29.360 --> 1:07:32.520
<v Speaker 2>want to be help your parents heal. It's not your responsibility,

1:07:32.560 --> 1:07:35.160
<v Speaker 2>but you can. You know, you can be a light

1:07:35.200 --> 1:07:38.440
<v Speaker 2>for them as well. And when you're talking about emotions

1:07:38.440 --> 1:07:41.080
<v Speaker 2>coming up, something that Dan and I talked about a

1:07:41.120 --> 1:07:43.280
<v Speaker 2>lot was like, where are you feeling something?

1:07:43.360 --> 1:07:43.560
<v Speaker 7>You know?

1:07:43.960 --> 1:07:45.560
<v Speaker 3>Are you feeling it in your chest? Do you feel

1:07:45.600 --> 1:07:46.320
<v Speaker 3>it in your stomach?

1:07:46.800 --> 1:07:50.320
<v Speaker 2>Being in touch with your body and respecting yourself enough

1:07:50.360 --> 1:07:53.160
<v Speaker 2>to sit with it, you know, when you're overcome, you're

1:07:53.200 --> 1:07:55.840
<v Speaker 2>allowed to go outside and cry and sit there for

1:07:55.880 --> 1:07:59.240
<v Speaker 2>twenty minutes because once you extinguish it, there is a

1:07:59.320 --> 1:08:03.280
<v Speaker 2>lightness of that happens, and it's when you resist your

1:08:03.320 --> 1:08:04.880
<v Speaker 2>emotions where you get into trouble.

1:08:05.120 --> 1:08:06.640
<v Speaker 3>So it's okay to feel all.

1:08:06.480 --> 1:08:09.400
<v Speaker 2>Those emotions and let them out and know, okay, oh

1:08:09.480 --> 1:08:12.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm feeling Okay, I'm feeling this. Sometimes it takes thirty

1:08:12.400 --> 1:08:14.440
<v Speaker 2>seconds just to sit with yourself, and sometimes you need

1:08:14.480 --> 1:08:17.120
<v Speaker 2>an hour. Whatever it is you need, you know you

1:08:17.240 --> 1:08:20.720
<v Speaker 2>need and you'll know, but being respectful of that so

1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:24.800
<v Speaker 2>you're not repressing or suppressing anything so that it's not

1:08:24.880 --> 1:08:28.040
<v Speaker 2>creeping up on you later. You know that you're experiencing

1:08:28.120 --> 1:08:31.200
<v Speaker 2>everything and thinking about where it is in your body, like.

1:08:31.200 --> 1:08:33.840
<v Speaker 3>Oh, I'm heavy in my chest right now. Okay, I

1:08:33.840 --> 1:08:35.920
<v Speaker 3>feel like I'm going to cry. Okay, now I'm going

1:08:35.960 --> 1:08:36.320
<v Speaker 3>to cry.

1:08:36.680 --> 1:08:40.280
<v Speaker 2>It sounds almost pedantic in a way, but it's so

1:08:40.920 --> 1:08:45.120
<v Speaker 2>important to respect yourself and your emotions, and that's how

1:08:45.160 --> 1:08:47.719
<v Speaker 2>you get through something like this in a healthy way,

1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:51.000
<v Speaker 2>because you are going to be in a place where

1:08:51.280 --> 1:08:54.320
<v Speaker 2>the pain is no longer as acute as it feels today.

1:08:54.680 --> 1:08:57.320
<v Speaker 3>You are That's what happens with life. You're going to

1:08:57.360 --> 1:08:59.320
<v Speaker 3>move on. There are going to be moments where you're

1:08:59.320 --> 1:09:00.000
<v Speaker 3>going to feel.

1:09:00.120 --> 1:09:03.120
<v Speaker 2>Dream joy again, and you may already have and that's

1:09:03.439 --> 1:09:06.639
<v Speaker 2>part of healing. That's part of healing because you're still here,

1:09:07.080 --> 1:09:11.000
<v Speaker 2>so everything that is coming up, it's just you know,

1:09:11.040 --> 1:09:13.280
<v Speaker 2>you obviously want to be with a therapist and talking

1:09:13.360 --> 1:09:15.479
<v Speaker 2>with somebody too. You need that kind of support right

1:09:15.479 --> 1:09:16.160
<v Speaker 2>now for sure?

1:09:16.560 --> 1:09:17.840
<v Speaker 3>Are you seeing someone right now?

1:09:18.080 --> 1:09:20.920
<v Speaker 7>Yeah? Yeah, I have a therapist, yeah yeah, and she's

1:09:20.960 --> 1:09:22.800
<v Speaker 7>really great. Yeah.

1:09:22.840 --> 1:09:24.920
<v Speaker 2>So all of those things are helpful, and just you know,

1:09:25.240 --> 1:09:27.879
<v Speaker 2>remembering that there is no wrong feeling or emotion.

1:09:28.320 --> 1:09:30.840
<v Speaker 3>There's nothing wrong. This is all just a process and

1:09:30.880 --> 1:09:31.960
<v Speaker 3>it doesn't last forever.

1:09:33.400 --> 1:09:35.960
<v Speaker 7>No, that's really great, Like, thank you, And I just

1:09:36.000 --> 1:09:38.599
<v Speaker 7>want to say thank you to you as well, because honestly, yeah,

1:09:38.640 --> 1:09:41.160
<v Speaker 7>like listening to your podcast and watching your stand up

1:09:41.160 --> 1:09:43.200
<v Speaker 7>has really helped me a lot, and I just think

1:09:43.240 --> 1:09:46.120
<v Speaker 7>it's so brave of you and yeah, again, really empowered

1:09:46.160 --> 1:09:46.639
<v Speaker 7>me as well.

1:09:47.320 --> 1:09:48.120
<v Speaker 3>Oh, thank you.

1:09:48.200 --> 1:09:49.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm so glad you called in, and I'm so glad

1:09:49.960 --> 1:09:51.559
<v Speaker 2>we had Dan here today for you, Katy.

1:09:51.640 --> 1:09:53.360
<v Speaker 7>Yeah, it was so nice to meet you as well.

1:09:53.439 --> 1:09:53.639
<v Speaker 3>Dan.

1:09:53.800 --> 1:09:56.439
<v Speaker 5>Thank you so much, Katie, nice to meet you. Thank

1:09:56.439 --> 1:09:57.120
<v Speaker 5>you so much.

1:09:57.840 --> 1:10:01.080
<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thanks Katie, bye bye bye.

1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:04.839
<v Speaker 3>Wow what a sweetie. Yeah wow?

1:10:06.800 --> 1:10:10.920
<v Speaker 2>Oh okay, Well ah, well, that was quite a heavy episode.

1:10:10.960 --> 1:10:15.760
<v Speaker 1>Today it was I do have one little extra thing

1:10:15.800 --> 1:10:19.360
<v Speaker 1>as we move into this close. Kelsey emailed us and said,

1:10:19.560 --> 1:10:22.439
<v Speaker 1>I recently went through a massive life change which led

1:10:22.479 --> 1:10:26.120
<v Speaker 1>me to changing careers, moving states, and finally getting out

1:10:26.120 --> 1:10:29.519
<v Speaker 1>of a long term toxic relationship. I read life Will

1:10:29.560 --> 1:10:31.240
<v Speaker 1>be the Death of Me, and it inspired me to

1:10:31.280 --> 1:10:33.760
<v Speaker 1>get back into therapy and really try to delve into

1:10:33.760 --> 1:10:38.000
<v Speaker 1>the deep childhood trauma. Your story resonated with me. I

1:10:38.080 --> 1:10:41.679
<v Speaker 1>was sitting outside my therapist office today and debated going

1:10:41.720 --> 1:10:44.280
<v Speaker 1>in and was questioning whether this was where I needed

1:10:44.320 --> 1:10:46.720
<v Speaker 1>to be. I put out into the world that I

1:10:46.760 --> 1:10:50.639
<v Speaker 1>needed a sign. I went into therapy and halfway through,

1:10:50.840 --> 1:10:54.160
<v Speaker 1>my therapist pulled out an orange out of her bag,

1:10:54.640 --> 1:10:57.080
<v Speaker 1>tossed it to me, and said, I think you need

1:10:57.080 --> 1:11:00.680
<v Speaker 1>this today. I stared at her and sh and then

1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:03.920
<v Speaker 1>subsequently lost it, and then had to explain that I

1:11:03.960 --> 1:11:06.879
<v Speaker 1>was inspired to get back into therapy after reading Chelsea's

1:11:06.880 --> 1:11:08.960
<v Speaker 1>book and that someone tossing me an orange was an

1:11:09.000 --> 1:11:12.280
<v Speaker 1>unexpected sign of compassion when I needed it the most,

1:11:12.920 --> 1:11:15.519
<v Speaker 1>and orange unraveled me and gave me the sign that

1:11:15.600 --> 1:11:18.599
<v Speaker 1>I'm exactly where I need to be. Our journeys are

1:11:18.640 --> 1:11:20.840
<v Speaker 1>not the same, but thank you for sharing yours and

1:11:20.960 --> 1:11:23.120
<v Speaker 1>inspiring me to heal so that I can find my

1:11:23.200 --> 1:11:27.320
<v Speaker 1>happy and success as well. It's already working. Much love

1:11:27.320 --> 1:11:28.839
<v Speaker 1>and admiration, Kelsey.

1:11:29.240 --> 1:11:33.559
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god, that makes me cry. Dan, Can you

1:11:33.640 --> 1:11:34.160
<v Speaker 3>believe that?

1:11:34.680 --> 1:11:38.040
<v Speaker 5>No, that's incredible, that is so beautiful.

1:11:38.680 --> 1:11:39.679
<v Speaker 1>Oh wow.

1:11:41.360 --> 1:11:44.200
<v Speaker 2>I was sitting the other day I got some shitty news.

1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:47.639
<v Speaker 2>I was sitting the other day with Joe and we

1:11:47.640 --> 1:11:50.439
<v Speaker 2>were somewhere. Oh yeah, it was when I had to

1:11:50.439 --> 1:11:52.040
<v Speaker 2>go to the hospital. And when the next day we

1:11:52.040 --> 1:11:54.040
<v Speaker 2>were sitting down, I was just like, oh my god,

1:11:54.120 --> 1:11:54.840
<v Speaker 2>what's wrong with me?

1:11:54.880 --> 1:11:57.400
<v Speaker 3>I'm so stressed out. I landed myself in the hospital.

1:11:57.560 --> 1:11:59.760
<v Speaker 3>Like I didn't think I was stressed out. And we

1:11:59.760 --> 1:12:03.000
<v Speaker 3>were just sitting in this restaurant and at a hotel.

1:12:03.040 --> 1:12:05.040
<v Speaker 2>And I was just looking at him, like just so

1:12:05.160 --> 1:12:07.080
<v Speaker 2>confused about where I was in my life, Like I

1:12:07.120 --> 1:12:09.160
<v Speaker 2>thought I was doing so great and I was on

1:12:09.240 --> 1:12:11.240
<v Speaker 2>top of everything and I had learned how to deal

1:12:11.240 --> 1:12:14.759
<v Speaker 2>with everything. And I looked down and there's this whole

1:12:15.000 --> 1:12:18.200
<v Speaker 2>tree of oranges right behind him, my goodness, and I

1:12:18.320 --> 1:12:21.479
<v Speaker 2>was like, oh my god, and I go look and

1:12:21.520 --> 1:12:22.679
<v Speaker 2>he's like see you're okay.

1:12:22.840 --> 1:12:26.000
<v Speaker 3>You're okay, You're always okay. It's just a little hiccup.

1:12:26.360 --> 1:12:29.240
<v Speaker 3>So I love that. Oh, Kelsey, thanks for sharing that

1:12:29.280 --> 1:12:32.080
<v Speaker 3>with us. That was so nice, so emotional. I love it.

1:12:33.040 --> 1:12:36.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, let's take a quick break because I just

1:12:36.320 --> 1:12:37.800
<v Speaker 2>I have a new loofah that I want to try

1:12:37.800 --> 1:12:40.880
<v Speaker 2>out on Catherine. I'm sorry, does that sound like workplace?

1:12:41.840 --> 1:12:47.240
<v Speaker 2>Workplace professionalism? Times have changed and someone has to respect that,

1:12:47.400 --> 1:12:48.360
<v Speaker 2>and that's someone is me.

1:12:48.720 --> 1:12:51.639
<v Speaker 3>That's right. So I apologize Catherine about the lufa comment.

1:12:52.560 --> 1:12:53.760
<v Speaker 4>It's okay, I love I love it.

1:12:53.800 --> 1:12:54.200
<v Speaker 3>I'm bad.

1:12:54.240 --> 1:12:58.400
<v Speaker 2>I apologize to you too about the lufa comment. Gosh,

1:12:58.439 --> 1:13:00.680
<v Speaker 2>that's your husband right in front of I know.

1:13:00.800 --> 1:13:03.320
<v Speaker 1>It's okay, he wouldn't mind. It'll be fine, It'll be fine.

1:13:03.640 --> 1:13:10.519
<v Speaker 1>Let's take a break. Okay, Dan, what advice do you

1:13:10.560 --> 1:13:11.000
<v Speaker 1>need from me?

1:13:11.640 --> 1:13:14.320
<v Speaker 5>Well, I asked you earlier. You know, how do you

1:13:14.520 --> 1:13:20.559
<v Speaker 5>keep that lifelong learning approach going? And the related thing

1:13:20.760 --> 1:13:23.160
<v Speaker 5>was how did you let yourself be open to really

1:13:23.200 --> 1:13:28.519
<v Speaker 5>facing your emotional life? There? And then a bonus question

1:13:29.200 --> 1:13:32.400
<v Speaker 5>for you, which from our relationship you'll probably think this

1:13:32.439 --> 1:13:33.000
<v Speaker 5>is Stan.

1:13:32.960 --> 1:13:33.840
<v Speaker 3>Is never short winded.

1:13:33.840 --> 1:13:40.519
<v Speaker 5>Everybody particular is how did humor enter your life? So

1:13:40.600 --> 1:13:43.080
<v Speaker 5>we can try to be inspired, not to be funny

1:13:43.160 --> 1:13:46.439
<v Speaker 5>stand ups like you are, but to just make sure

1:13:46.479 --> 1:13:48.840
<v Speaker 5>that in the face of all the challenges we keep

1:13:48.880 --> 1:13:49.879
<v Speaker 5>our humor alive.

1:13:50.840 --> 1:13:53.679
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, God, I don't know if you can. I don't

1:13:53.720 --> 1:13:56.360
<v Speaker 2>know if that's a learned thing or if that's inherent.

1:13:56.520 --> 1:13:59.160
<v Speaker 2>You know. I think I was born with that because

1:13:59.160 --> 1:14:02.560
<v Speaker 2>my family was just We're all like that, Like sarcasm

1:14:02.680 --> 1:14:06.080
<v Speaker 2>was was our function, you know, like everything was sarcastic

1:14:06.160 --> 1:14:10.479
<v Speaker 2>to deal with the lameness like we just are were

1:14:10.520 --> 1:14:13.160
<v Speaker 2>constantly like, oh, like our parents were lame.

1:14:13.720 --> 1:14:15.160
<v Speaker 3>Growing up was just lame.

1:14:15.280 --> 1:14:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Our birthdays our parents trying to like celebrate our birthdays

1:14:18.080 --> 1:14:20.759
<v Speaker 2>was lame. So we just had these built in senses

1:14:20.760 --> 1:14:22.960
<v Speaker 2>of humor to cope with it. But I don't I

1:14:23.000 --> 1:14:25.160
<v Speaker 2>can't really speak to whether or not you can, you know,

1:14:25.360 --> 1:14:27.680
<v Speaker 2>adopt it. I think it's important to remember not to

1:14:27.720 --> 1:14:31.519
<v Speaker 2>take yourself so seriously. Right, You're not the only person

1:14:31.560 --> 1:14:35.040
<v Speaker 2>on this planet. There's a million billions of things going

1:14:35.080 --> 1:14:37.880
<v Speaker 2>on around you, and you're just what you want to

1:14:37.920 --> 1:14:41.880
<v Speaker 2>bring is light and happiness and joyfulness, right to the table,

1:14:41.960 --> 1:14:44.320
<v Speaker 2>to the energy field around you, to the people that

1:14:44.360 --> 1:14:48.160
<v Speaker 2>you come in contact with. So I think humor plays

1:14:48.160 --> 1:14:51.760
<v Speaker 2>into that. To be light and happy and set a

1:14:51.800 --> 1:14:55.760
<v Speaker 2>tone and inspire people to be open and yeah, I

1:14:55.800 --> 1:14:58.960
<v Speaker 2>guess you know. Just try not to take yourself so seriously.

1:14:59.560 --> 1:15:01.400
<v Speaker 2>You got to be able to laugh at all the

1:15:01.520 --> 1:15:04.960
<v Speaker 2>bad stuff too, because there's humor and everything. Sometimes you

1:15:05.000 --> 1:15:06.519
<v Speaker 2>have to look a little harder for it, but.

1:15:06.479 --> 1:15:10.840
<v Speaker 5>It's there, beautiful. Well, that's great because that actually relates

1:15:10.880 --> 1:15:13.000
<v Speaker 5>to the other questions that you've already answered. You know

1:15:13.120 --> 1:15:16.640
<v Speaker 5>how to keep those questions going and really keep an

1:15:16.680 --> 1:15:21.160
<v Speaker 5>open mind to grow throughout life. So Chelsea, thank you

1:15:21.240 --> 1:15:23.479
<v Speaker 5>so much. Catherine, thank you so much. It's really an

1:15:23.520 --> 1:15:26.599
<v Speaker 5>honor to be here with you and really a joy

1:15:26.960 --> 1:15:29.559
<v Speaker 5>to speak with all the people who had questions today,

1:15:29.560 --> 1:15:32.600
<v Speaker 5>and I feel very privileged to be here. So thank you.

1:15:32.680 --> 1:15:33.720
<v Speaker 3>Oh, thank you so much.

1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:34.000
<v Speaker 6>Dan.

1:15:34.040 --> 1:15:36.240
<v Speaker 2>I know that you usually charge for this kind of advice,

1:15:36.280 --> 1:15:38.440
<v Speaker 2>so I appreciate you volunteering your services.

1:15:40.520 --> 1:15:45.520
<v Speaker 5>Well, I feel like I'm enriched just like working with you, Chelsea.

1:15:45.640 --> 1:15:48.040
<v Speaker 5>This has really been a great conversation today.

1:15:48.080 --> 1:15:49.880
<v Speaker 3>Thank you awesome. Thank you so much.

1:15:50.000 --> 1:15:50.160
<v Speaker 5>Dan.

1:15:50.200 --> 1:15:51.920
<v Speaker 3>I really appreciate it. I'll see you soon.

1:15:52.520 --> 1:15:54.000
<v Speaker 5>Great, you will.

1:15:54.040 --> 1:15:58.040
<v Speaker 1>Thanks Katherine, thank you so much for tuning in to

1:15:58.160 --> 1:16:00.880
<v Speaker 1>der Chelsea Season two. We'll be back with another season

1:16:01.120 --> 1:16:01.879
<v Speaker 1>May twelfth.

1:16:02.000 --> 1:16:02.479
<v Speaker 3>See then,