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Speaker 1: Okay, Hi, oh hello Catherine, Hello Chelsea.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, good afternoon, everybody. Good morning.

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Speaker 3: We have some very exciting news. Dear Chelsea.

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Speaker 2: The podcast you are currently listening to has been named

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Speaker 2: a Webby Honoree in the podcast general series Advice and

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Speaker 2: how To category.

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Speaker 4: Woo whooo.

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Speaker 3: Congratulations, congratulations Chelsea.

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Speaker 5: Oh my god.

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Speaker 2: Earning the distinction of Webby Honoree, that's what it's called,

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Speaker 2: as recognized by the International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences,

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Speaker 2: is a significant achievement, granted to only the top twenty

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Speaker 2: percent of more than fourteen three hundred projects submitted in

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Speaker 2: this year's competition.

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Speaker 3: So that is a very exciting little award.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh my god, how I love it. I love

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Speaker 2: getting nominated for awards. It's the whole new thing for me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I mean, it's just it's a little bit of recognition.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of fun.

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Speaker 1: I love an atta boy like I love a pat

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Speaker 1: on the back. So this is just a wonderful way

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Speaker 1: to get one of those.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, I agree, thank you very much.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 4: What else, Catherine, Well, I'm wearing my Dear Chelsea hat.

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Speaker 3: From merches In.

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Speaker 2: You guys are Dear Chelsea merches In It's available on

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Speaker 2: my website at Chelseahandler dot com.

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Speaker 4: It's very exciting. Oh I should also tell you this.

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Speaker 1: So the very first day that I wore my Dear

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Speaker 1: Chelsea Lemon yellow T shirt, I went for a hike.

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Speaker 1: My husband and I were hiking in Griffith Park and

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Speaker 1: a woman came up to me and she pointed at

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Speaker 1: my shirt and she goes, I have that in my

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Speaker 1: ears right now.

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Speaker 4: And I was really confused.

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Speaker 3: And then my.

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Speaker 1: Husband was like, Catherine, she said, she's listening to your

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Speaker 1: like this podcast right now, the one that's on your shirt.

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Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, that's cute. It was very

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Speaker 3: I wonder why you were so confused.

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Speaker 1: I was, well, it was like the you're in. It

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Speaker 1: was like, that's in my ears right now. I was like, wait,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand. But she had earbuds in and it

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Speaker 1: was a whole thing.

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Speaker 3: But it was very cute. Well that was cute. I

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Speaker 3: love that people listen to it.

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Speaker 2: I always forget, you know, you leave here and then

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Speaker 2: you get that you like, even did a podcast, right

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Speaker 2: So it's nice when people say, oh my god, I

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Speaker 2: love your podcast, or I've called in or I've written

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Speaker 2: in somebody tried to hand me their submission the other day,

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Speaker 2: so I got to get that to you as soon

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Speaker 2: as possible. Just so everybody knows, Catherine handles the submissions.

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Speaker 3: Yes, and there, how do you submit again.

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Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea Project at gmail dot com. Don't send it

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Speaker 1: to Dear Chelsea. That's a very sweet woman who's not us.

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Speaker 2: And who's obviously annoyed by getting all of our emails,

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Speaker 2: but she's.

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Speaker 1: Like, I feel bad, I want to make sure that

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Speaker 1: these get to you. So that's Dear Chelsea Project at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com. And yeah, I read every single one

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Speaker 1: that comes in so and actually I have received several

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Speaker 1: emails about our Amy Schumer episode, and there was one

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Speaker 1: specific little thing that was mentioned on the episode that

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Speaker 1: we wanted a lot of people wanted to make sure

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Speaker 1: that we correct it, okay, which you know we're here

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Speaker 1: to learn too, So I think that's great, Ashley says,

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Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea. I love, love love your show guests. You

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Speaker 1: have the topics you cover. It helps so many people

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Speaker 1: and I love listening every week. I'm writing to respectfully

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Speaker 1: ask you for a correction to your episode with Amy Schumer.

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Speaker 1: It was educational and vulnerable and your conversation on the

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Speaker 1: autistic community and later in life diagnoses will change people's

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Speaker 1: lives for the better. In the episode, it was mentioned

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Speaker 1: that autism can't be diagnosed until around age five or six,

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Speaker 1: which is incorrect. I'm a speech and language pathologist who

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Speaker 1: works with children age two to fourteen, many of whom

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Speaker 1: are autistic. You can seek diagnosis as early as age two.

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Speaker 1: Early intervention is key for many families, and often the

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Speaker 1: stigma of autism keeps families from getting a diagnosis until

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Speaker 1: much later. My goal in my practice is always to

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Speaker 1: put children in their families first, and with all the

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Speaker 1: advocacy Amy does, I want everyone to be armed with

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Speaker 1: the most accurate information possible. Thanks for your consideration, Ashley.

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Speaker 2: Goddamn it, Amy, goddamn it, Amy, Why is she always

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Speaker 2: getting me in trouble? Come on getting people in trouble.

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Speaker 2: And then I met Amy Schumer. Okay, so you can

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Speaker 2: get diagnosis early. As to thank you for your letter,

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Speaker 2: thank you for your correction. We appreciate that, and yes,

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Speaker 2: we want to get out accurate information to everybody.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, early intervention, guys.

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Speaker 3: Early intervention. I wish somebody would have intervened with me earlier.

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Speaker 2: Than they did, because I really just I could have

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Speaker 2: used some sort of diagnosis when I was younger. I

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Speaker 2: don't know what my diagnosis is, but I could have

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Speaker 2: used some help.

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Speaker 1: I feel like we're as we have expanding conversations about

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Speaker 1: everything in the public domain.

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Speaker 4: There are so many things that I'm like, oh, wait,

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Speaker 4: I have this.

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Speaker 1: I have that, Like it's because of podcasts and one

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Speaker 1: in particular that I was like, Oh, I have anxiety.

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Speaker 4: That's what that feeling is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we're actually knowing the difference between anxiety and like,

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Speaker 2: you know, anxiety encompasses so many different things, like being

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Speaker 2: annoyed with people is anxiety I always had. Anxiety is like, oh,

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Speaker 2: social anxiety and inability to so or perform or go

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Speaker 2: out or stage fright like that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: And it's actually much more nuanced than that.

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Speaker 2: There is a whole spectrum of anxiety that you can

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Speaker 2: suffer from, and it can present in many different ways

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Speaker 2: in different people. So, you know, eating is anxiety sometimes,

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Speaker 2: doing drugs is anxiety sometimes, or a celebration.

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Speaker 4: Can be either. Chelsea, do you have any tour dates

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Speaker 4: that you want to come?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, I added a show in Saratoga. Saratoga Mountain Winery.

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Speaker 2: I added a second show in Nashville. Nashville is where

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Speaker 2: I am shooting my next special, so there will be

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Speaker 2: two shows now in Nashville. And I am also performing

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Speaker 2: at the Just for Laughs Comedy Festival in Montreal. Everyone

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Speaker 2: has been asking for Montreal dates to all of my

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Speaker 2: Canadian friends. That is July twenty eighth, i will be

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Speaker 2: at the Montreal Just for Laughs. I'm hosting a gala,

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Speaker 2: and then I also have another I have two dates

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Speaker 2: in Vancouver Friday August twelfth to show in Vancouver and

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Speaker 2: then Saturday, August thirteenth and Sunday August fourteenth. Tickets are

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Speaker 2: available for Calgary in Alberta. And I'm also adding a

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Speaker 2: show Saturday October eighth in Niagara Falls, which is Ontario.

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Speaker 2: So those are my Canadian dates coming up. And then

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Speaker 2: this week I'm starting back on tour. So Thursday, April fourteenth,

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Speaker 2: I'm in Cedar Rapids. Then the fifteenth I'm in Des

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Speaker 2: Moines and I'm coming to Omaha.

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Speaker 3: Nebraska on Saturday night.

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Speaker 2: So and then the week after that is Louisville, Kentucky,

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Speaker 2: Saint Louis, Missouri, and two shows in Kansas City. So

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Speaker 2: check Chelseahandler dot com for your tickets. I'm back on tour,

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Speaker 2: vaccinated in Horny. Let's get down to business.

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Speaker 4: It's just great.

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Speaker 3: It's just great. I'm just back from Vegas.

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Speaker 2: So I'm looking a little peckish or peaked, one of

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Speaker 2: those words.

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Speaker 3: They both apply. Actually, I'm hungry and tired.

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Speaker 2: We went to Whistler to celebrate my friend and his birthday.

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Speaker 2: That was Saturday, very fun. Sunday night was the Grammys

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Speaker 2: in Vegas, which we flew out to with all of

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Speaker 2: our friends from Whistler.

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Speaker 3: Then we celebrated Joe's birthday. After the Grammys. We had

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Speaker 3: a after.

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Speaker 2: Party for him with his DJ terb his one of

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Speaker 2: his besties DJing and it was so much fun. And

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Speaker 2: then we did it again Monday, and then we did

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Speaker 2: it again Tuesday, and we had activities like dune bugging

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Speaker 2: in the desert for all of our guests. We had

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Speaker 2: about seventy five people there. So I am fresh off

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Speaker 2: of a flight from Vegas.

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Speaker 3: I just landed. I'm here today.

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Speaker 2: And talking about to talk to my to our very

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Speaker 2: special guest for our final episode, which is our season

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Speaker 2: finale of season two. We'll be back shortly. We won't

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Speaker 2: take that long of a break. But our finale guest

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Speaker 2: is none other than my psychiatrist, doctor Dan Siegel. It's

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Speaker 2: very exciting.

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Speaker 1: It's very exciting to have him on, and he's going

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Speaker 1: to help us with a couple of sort of trickier

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Speaker 1: questions that yes' had because I.

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Speaker 3: Obviously I want to explain to all of my listeners.

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Speaker 2: Obviously I can help with many things, and I think

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Speaker 2: I know a lot about a lot of things, and

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Speaker 2: I also know that I don't know a lot about

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Speaker 2: some important things. So when there is heavier advice to

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Speaker 2: be given where we do need a professional, I obviously

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Speaker 2: try to implement one every few episodes so we can

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Speaker 2: catch up with the callers who I was not feeling

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Speaker 2: confident enough or you weren't feeling.

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Speaker 3: Confident enough to help.

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Speaker 2: By the way, I've got so many compliments on you

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Speaker 2: this weekend.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 2: My sister was also saying, I was on the phone

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Speaker 2: with her last night just how much A loves your

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Speaker 2: voice and be how well rounded you are. She was like, god,

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Speaker 2: Catherine just knows a little bit about everything, and I

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Speaker 2: was like, I know, she's like a general practitioner.

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Speaker 3: That's so great.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I guess I told her.

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Speaker 2: Finances your specialty, because that's where you really come alive.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that would actually make everyone in my family.

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Speaker 1: My dad is a tax attorney, so that would make

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Speaker 1: him laugh very very hard. But oh that's so great,

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Speaker 1: A great compliment. Yeah, you know, I love to research.

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Speaker 1: I love to fall down an internet rabbit hole. It's

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Speaker 1: finally paying off.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is, now that you've got this Webby award.

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Speaker 2: I mean I slipped and said, Emmy, we can get

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Speaker 2: what that? Yeah, that's for us. Excellent, excellent. Well, should

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Speaker 2: we welcome doctor.

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Speaker 4: Dan the show?

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Speaker 3: I know doctor Dan.

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Speaker 2: During the course of this interview, we'll mention several of

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Speaker 2: his books, but do we want to also maybe at

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Speaker 2: the end we can mention all the books because his

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Speaker 2: books are helpful, and I would like to just be

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Speaker 2: on the record and say there A lot of them

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Speaker 2: are parenting books. And I've read three parenting books from him,

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Speaker 2: So you are an expert in parenting. Well, I mean

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Speaker 2: it was more for Burt and Bernice, and we know

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Speaker 2: how that turned out. So I mean, I don't know

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Speaker 2: if you could apply parenting books to animals, but that's

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Speaker 2: what I was after.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think they can be as sassy as teenagers.

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Speaker 1: Like Mimsy is in a very teenager stage right now.

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Speaker 1: She just plants her feet when she doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: go home on a walk.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, Bernie does that all the time.

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Speaker 2: She Bernie won't step on certain materials, like she doesn't

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Speaker 2: like certain surfaces. So she's stops and then you have

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Speaker 2: to basically choke her to pull her over it. She

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Speaker 2: doesn't like sand, she doesn't like cement. That's just like

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Speaker 2: anything that's dirty. Really, yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: I don't know where she got that from, my belle.

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Speaker 3: It must be, it must be. We'll be right back.

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Speaker 2: So today's guest It has a medical degree from Harvard.

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Speaker 2: He's a clinical professor of psychiatry at the UCLA School

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Speaker 2: of Medicine and the founding co director of the Mindful

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Speaker 2: Awareness Research Center at UCLA. He is a multiple time

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Speaker 2: New York Times best selling author, a neuropsychiatrist, and interpersonal neurobiologist,

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Speaker 2: Doctor Dan Siegel.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, look who it is. Hi?

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Speaker 5: How are you?

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Speaker 3: Longtime?

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Speaker 6: You know?

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Speaker 3: Cci?

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Speaker 5: I know, how are you you?

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Speaker 3: I'm very well. This is my co host Catherine, who

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Speaker 3: I think he's.

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Speaker 5: Spoken to Hi, Catherine, Nice to see you.

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Speaker 4: Like Wise, Likewise.

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Speaker 2: Dan uses a standing desk, Catherine, So if his motion

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Speaker 2: is giving you motion sickness, let him know.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I can stop if you want. It's I like walking.

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Speaker 5: But if you want me to stop, I can stop.

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Speaker 2: No, that's fine. I'm fine with it. Although, Catherine, are

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Speaker 2: you okay with it?

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Speaker 1: I think I'm okay with it. If I do get

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Speaker 1: motion sickness, I will let you know.

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Speaker 2: I love the idea of getting motion signess from someone

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Speaker 2: else's motion.

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Speaker 3: What does it interpersonal neurobiologists mean? Dan?

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Speaker 5: You know? Interpersonal neurobiology is a phrase for a framework

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Speaker 5: that combines all different ways of knowing, like the different

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Speaker 5: fields of science or studies of meditation what are called

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Speaker 5: contemplative insights with indigenous practices indigenous wisdom, and we bring

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Speaker 5: it all together and say, if there's one reality, can

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Speaker 5: everybody join in the tent and have a conversation that's

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Speaker 5: collaborative so we can see the wisdom from all these

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Speaker 5: different points of view.

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Speaker 3: Oh, interesting, is that a new field?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a new framework. I introduced it in nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety nine, so it's relatively new compared to some other things.

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Speaker 5: But it's new, especially in the notion that it's not

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Speaker 5: trying to replace an existing point of view. It's trying

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Speaker 5: to say, there's so many views from thousands of years

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Speaker 5: ago or from dozens of years ago, and if they're

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Speaker 5: all exploring the nature of truth, could we see if

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Speaker 5: they all fit together somehow? There's a common ground that EO. Wilson,

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Speaker 5: the writer calls consilience. So we look for the consilience

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Speaker 5: or common ground across independent pursuits of knowledge.

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, we're really leveling up this episode, Catherine buckle In.

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Speaker 5: So that relates to actually one of the questions that

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Speaker 5: I want to ask you, but I'll ask that later,

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Speaker 5: but it relates to it.

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Speaker 3: Okay, great, I love it. I love when you ask

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Speaker 3: me questions.

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Speaker 5: It's so great to see you, I got to say, Joseph.

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Speaker 3: Oh, it's always good to see you. Always good to

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Speaker 3: see you.

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Speaker 2: I spoke to you a few months ago because I'm

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Speaker 2: in a new relationship and about the adjustment to be

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Speaker 2: in a relationship with somebody, to spend so much time

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Speaker 2: with somebody when I'm so used to being so kind

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Speaker 2: of independent and alone. And I wanted to mention because

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Speaker 2: you and I had had conversation once and I can

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Speaker 2: say this because it's private until I publicize it.

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Speaker 3: So I'll say it.

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Speaker 2: But we talked about I remember there was a period

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Speaker 2: of time where I was telling you that I just

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Speaker 2: I was like, I just want to go to bed

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Speaker 2: at like eight o'clock every night. You know, I'm not

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Speaker 2: in the mood to hang out. I just want to

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Speaker 2: be in bed all the time. And I was asking you,

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Speaker 2: do you think I'm depressed? And I was single at

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Speaker 2: the time, and you said, saliently, I think that if

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Speaker 2: someone were in your life that you were excited about,

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Speaker 2: you wouldn't want to go to bed at seven or

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Speaker 2: eight o'clock.

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Speaker 3: And I still like to go to bed at seven

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Speaker 3: or eight o'clock.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there are times when I can't where of

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Speaker 2: course I don't because he's a night owl, and we

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Speaker 2: compromise a lot.

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Speaker 3: But the other night, I remember we came home.

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Speaker 2: He was taping two of his shows at the Forum

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Speaker 2: in La his Netflix special, So there were big nights

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Speaker 2: out and we were out till one in the morning,

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Speaker 2: then we were out till five in the morning, and

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Speaker 2: on the Sunday we were planning to go to all

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Speaker 2: these Oscar parties and I woke up Sunday, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I'm done. I can't socialize anymore. And that night, and

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Speaker 2: you know, Joe wakes up. My boyfriend has more energy

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Speaker 2: than a battery pack. I mean, it is unbelievable what

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Speaker 2: this guy is willing to do all day long on

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Speaker 2: no sleep. It's just crazy. I've never seen any human

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Speaker 2: being operate like this. He's got different DNA. So anyway,

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Speaker 2: that night, he was like going somewhere. I wanted to

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Speaker 2: go to dinner with his family, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: I really just want to go to bed at seven

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Speaker 2: or eight o'clock. And I remember the conversation you and

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Speaker 2: I had and I thought, oh, what does this mean

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Speaker 2: that I still want this? Because I have this kind

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Speaker 2: of element now to my personality where I want to

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Speaker 2: hunker down, you know, where I want to get in

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Speaker 2: bed and watch TV and just build myself a little nest.

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Speaker 2: And I know when you do that often too much,

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Speaker 2: it becomes it does become a pattern where it feels

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Speaker 2: like you are depressed.

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Speaker 5: Well no, so what's the part where you're calling it depression?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think when I was doing it consistently, now

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Speaker 2: I do it, you know, on a Sunday night, you know,

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Speaker 2: or you know, I don't do it as frequently, so

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Speaker 2: it doesn't feel as like bad.

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Speaker 3: Because when you do it consistently.

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Speaker 2: And I think it was also maybe a product of

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Speaker 2: COVID as well, that I was just like, there's nothing

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Speaker 2: going on, it's just easier to get stoned and go,

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Speaker 2: you know, get into bed and whatever. But it was

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Speaker 2: becoming a pattern that I didn't like about myself. It

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Speaker 2: just didn't feel I didn't feel alive. I felt like

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Speaker 2: I was slightly depressed. And I've never really dealt with

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Speaker 2: any depression to the level where I had to really

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Speaker 2: like take anything for it.

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Speaker 3: Or I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I guess I don't know if it's a question or

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Speaker 2: just an observation, but I don't know.

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Speaker 3: What are your thoughts on that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you're raising a couple of really important issues.

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Speaker 5: I mean, one, when you use the word depression, we

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Speaker 5: should realize that there are people in the world who

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Speaker 5: have really serious ways where they get the experience of

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Speaker 5: you know, maybe going to bed early or even having

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Speaker 5: a hard time falling asleep. It can go either way.

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Speaker 5: Their sleep can be interrupted, they can get up early,

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Speaker 5: or they can sleep really a long time, So sleep

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Speaker 5: is a big issue to talk about with this thing

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Speaker 5: called major depression. But in addition, you know, they have

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Speaker 5: low energy. They have something called anhedonia, which means and

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Speaker 5: is without hedonis pleasure, So they don't get pleasure in

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Speaker 5: things that used to give them pleasure. And also they

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Speaker 5: don't get pleasure in anticipating doing something fun, so they

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Speaker 5: kind of lose their jois de vivre, their joy of living.

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Speaker 5: It kind of goes away. They start thinking kind of

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Speaker 5: really down thoughts like I'm no good, I'm guilty of

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Speaker 5: things that I'm not even guilty of. You know, I'm

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Speaker 5: a horrible person, and there's no future for me, there's

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Speaker 5: no hope, and then I start feeling helpless. So for

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Speaker 5: or any of us who've worked on a suicide prevention service,

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Speaker 5: when someone with serious depression calls you, you can feel

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Speaker 5: it in the tone of their voice. It's kind of

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Speaker 5: like flat and there's a huge despair there. That makes

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Speaker 5: suicide a serious risk. So if anyone's hearing us and

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Speaker 5: your experience of those, please reach out for help to

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Speaker 5: a mental health professional. If suicide is something you're thinking about,

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Speaker 5: you know, please reach out to a suicide prevention service,

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Speaker 5: because the great news about depression is that it's treatable

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Speaker 5: and even though you may feel hopeless, there's hope right

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Speaker 5: around the corner. And part of it actually is the

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Speaker 5: connection we talked about. So when I said to you,

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Speaker 5: I think if you had a connection with someone that

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Speaker 5: mattered to you in your life, it wasn't that I

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Speaker 5: thought you were depressed. But some people do get depressed

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Speaker 5: because they have no connection, and it's really loneliness, deep

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Speaker 5: deep loneliness. And our community, our larger society now doesn't

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Speaker 5: really support people having connections with each other. You know,

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Speaker 5: the current US Surgeon General wrote a beautiful book call

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Speaker 5: Together about this sad epidemic we have where we have

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Speaker 5: so much material wealth, but we don't have much relational wealth.

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Speaker 5: People are so isolated from each other, so you know,

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Speaker 5: that's a separate sort of thing. So being lonely can

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Speaker 5: make you feel horrible and despairing, but it might not

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Speaker 5: be called major depression, but it still feels terrible, and

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Speaker 5: we need to help people with that. And then there's

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Speaker 5: you know, just what's called dysphoria, which is where you

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Speaker 5: just feel yucky about your life. This as bad for me,

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Speaker 5: it's how you feel, and I'm dysphoric, you know, And

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Speaker 5: I think anyone who reads the news can get dysphoric

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Speaker 5: because we're in a rough place in the world now,

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Speaker 5: so our body is going to respond emotionally, and emotion,

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Speaker 5: you know, is basically three things woven together. It's relationships,

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Speaker 5: the body's response, and meaning. Those three things are really

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Speaker 5: what emotion is. So if someone says, oh my emotion

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Speaker 5: f horrible, I feel down. What's going on with the world, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: let's name it so we can frame it like in

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Speaker 5: a picture frame and say that's what it is. Let's

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Speaker 5: try to participate, you know, in social activism. Let's try

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Speaker 5: to do something to really feel empowered, to actually have

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Speaker 5: what's called agency, or I can be an agent of

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Speaker 5: action to do something. So a lot of people these

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Speaker 5: days are feeling hopeless, and they can call it depressed,

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Speaker 5: but that gets people mixed up with a serious psychiatric

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Speaker 5: condition rather than the world is in a really tough spot.

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Speaker 5: So we can feel hopeless. Let's talk to each other

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Speaker 5: about it, because in working collectively, we can actually move

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Speaker 5: through that to what Joanna Macy, a beautiful writer, calls

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Speaker 5: active hope. So this is a way you can take

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Speaker 5: that word depression and see it as either a serious

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Speaker 5: disorder that sometimes needs medications or other treatments, or a

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Speaker 5: more moderate condition where you know psychotherapy can be helpful,

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Speaker 5: or a we're using that word to describe loneliness and

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Speaker 5: then having a change in your participation in life. You know,

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Speaker 5: like people in AA, for example, they get an instant

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Speaker 5: community through alcoholics anonymous meetings, and their feeling of a

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Speaker 5: loneliness and despair can dissolve away because they go to

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Speaker 5: a regular meeting. Like a relative of mine is a

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Speaker 5: recovering alcoholic, and he goes to the meeting seven days

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Speaker 5: a week, and he's like the most unlnely person right

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Speaker 5: to find because he's got a whole community every day

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Speaker 5: that he's actively a part of, very meaningful conversations.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I like dysphoric.

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Speaker 2: That's a good way to describe it, because I think

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Speaker 2: for many of us, especially with the events of the

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Speaker 2: last few years, it's.

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Speaker 3: Like a low level of dysphoria.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's and it can feel it feels maybe

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Speaker 2: like depression, because it's not a common feeling. I know,

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Speaker 2: for me, I've never felt that kind of listlessness where

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Speaker 2: you're just.

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Speaker 3: Like it's on Wii.

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Speaker 2: You're just like, I don't I can't get it up

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Speaker 2: for anything. I'm not that excited about anything that's happening.

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Speaker 2: And I definitely did remove reading the news from my

441
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:05,600
Speaker 2: repertoire after a while because I just I read too many.

442
00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 3: It was too obvious what it does to your brain.

443
00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 2: And obviously now with the events, the most recent events

444
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:14,240
Speaker 2: in Ukraine and Russia invading Ukraine like that is something

445
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,720
Speaker 2: that is a human being. It's our responsibility, I believe,

446
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,359
Speaker 2: to be up to speed and to understand and to

447
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 2: be actively involved in doing whatever it is that you

448
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: may be able to do, you know, whether that's donating

449
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,360
Speaker 2: money or volunteering in some way, or just being mindful

450
00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,919
Speaker 2: of what's happening in the world and meditating on it

451
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 2: every day whatever, like small contribution you think is fine

452
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,120
Speaker 2: for you, or big contribution, but.

453
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,400
Speaker 3: The political aspect, it's just too sickening.

454
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 2: So I realized that that was just contributing to my

455
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,919
Speaker 2: kind of darkness for a long time and had to

456
00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,600
Speaker 2: remove that. And it's kind of like it's too bad,

457
00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:56,440
Speaker 2: But it's an addiction. It's just like anything else. It's

458
00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 2: just like being addicted to TikTok or Instagram or mind

459
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,880
Speaker 2: scrolling through your phone on social media. That is also

460
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 2: an addiction, you know, And I don't like the way

461
00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,720
Speaker 2: that makes me feel either, And I'm very mindful of.

462
00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 3: How peruse it.

463
00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:12,879
Speaker 2: Like you know, if I'm reading a book for two hours,

464
00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 2: I come away with a much different feeling, a much

465
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,399
Speaker 2: greater self assuredness and self esteem than I do when

466
00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,119
Speaker 2: I'm wasting my time reading gossip or reading you know,

467
00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: the internet, Like, I know now what the components are

468
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 2: that trigger me or take me to kind of a

469
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,360
Speaker 2: low energy, vibrational place exactly.

470
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,800
Speaker 5: Well, you know, you're describing an awareness of how you're responding.

471
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:40,840
Speaker 5: Your body is responding, your emotions are responding, and then

472
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 5: in that awareness, you've beautifully created a space so you

473
00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 5: can say, wow, I'm kind of addicted to these social

474
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:54,760
Speaker 5: media things, and I notice I feel really bad. Wow.

475
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 5: When I take the time to reflect on that, I

476
00:22:58,040 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 5: can name it. Oh, I feel bad when I do

477
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,760
Speaker 5: this social media. I could frame it say Okay, what

478
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 5: do I want to do about it? I'm not going

479
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 5: to do it as much. That's an empowered mind you're

480
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 5: talking about that you have, and it's beautiful here you

481
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 5: describe it, and a lot of people and if you've

482
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 5: seen the Social Dilemma documentary, you know, the people who

483
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 5: designed social media studied addiction, and they intentionally create stuff

484
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:26,679
Speaker 5: on your screens to capture eyeballs, to capture your time,

485
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 5: focusing your attention on the thing whatever it is. That

486
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 5: wasn't by accident, it was by intent.

487
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, but what's so astonishing is that everybody is aware

488
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 2: of that and has been made aware of that, yet

489
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:44,400
Speaker 2: we still allow ourselves to operate.

490
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 3: Like that, like people like, I know, it's crazy.

491
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 2: It's like, well, wait, you're just a cog and of

492
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 2: wheel if you're just allowing people to manipulate your brain.

493
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 7: Right.

494
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 5: Well, And part of the reason why that addiction what's

495
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 5: called intermittent reinforcement. If you keep on giving positive reinforcement

496
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 5: over and over again, after a while, it isn't so addicting.

497
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:09,680
Speaker 5: But intermittent reinforcement where I give you a reward, then

498
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,440
Speaker 5: three next times don't. Then I give you one, then

499
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 5: eight times next I don't. Then the ninth time you

500
00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 5: get a reward, you don't know when it's gonna happen,

501
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,720
Speaker 5: so it really pulls you in. That's number one. The

502
00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,560
Speaker 5: other thing, which is the other side of it, is

503
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 5: that our brains are incredibly social. So there's all sorts

504
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 5: of studies I can tell you about, but the summary

505
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 5: of all of them basically is we are social creatures.

506
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 5: That's no surprise. You didn't need to do brain studies

507
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 5: to know that. But when you look at the brain,

508
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:42,159
Speaker 5: areas involved in feeling accepted. And I can tell you

509
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,679
Speaker 5: one study that is so cool. When you're accepted, it

510
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 5: activates this dopamine release. It's very rewarding. That's what the

511
00:24:49,320 --> 00:24:51,800
Speaker 5: dopamine is for. That was good. Let me do it again,

512
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 5: Let me do it again, Let me do it again.

513
00:24:53,520 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 5: But then when you sense that you're not accepted, like

514
00:24:57,320 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 5: you're not getting as many hits on your social media

515
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 5: or whatever like that, the part of the brain, it's

516
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 5: called the dorsal anterior cingulate, the part of the brain

517
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 5: that registers social rejection. I call it feeling of being inadequate,

518
00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,440
Speaker 5: like I'm not fitting in with the social group. It's

519
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 5: exactly the same part of the brain as if someone's

520
00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 5: stabbing you with a knife. It hurts literally in the brain.

521
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 5: It's the same part of the brain social rejection, physical pain,

522
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,439
Speaker 5: same part of the brain. Now, when you take that,

523
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 5: you go wow, Okay, So you're always trying to see

524
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:29,679
Speaker 5: how can I fit in? How do I compare? How

525
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 5: do I fit in? How do I compare? Do I belong?

526
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 5: Do I not belong? You know, so you're trying not

527
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 5: to feel the pain. You're trying to find membership in

528
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,360
Speaker 5: a modern society, as we talked about earlier, where we're

529
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 5: so alone. So you combine those two things, the int reinforcement,

530
00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 5: all the other ways they know about addiction with the

531
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 5: social brain, and it is a money maker goes. Then

532
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 5: you're going to get so much time.

533
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 2: Think about it.

534
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,679
Speaker 5: Fifteen years ago we didn't have these things, and now

535
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 5: everyone's got them.

536
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know people are like, oh, we're going to

537
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: keep our kids off social media, We're going to keep

538
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 2: them off of iPads. I'm not going to get any

539
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 2: of that until they're ten, twelve, fifteen. I have a

540
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 2: friend who waited for her kids to get a phone

541
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,439
Speaker 2: until I think they were fourteen, And it's like, what

542
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: does that do?

543
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 3: Because once you get it, once you're in, you're in, right.

544
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 5: I mean I even see it in my two kids.

545
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 5: You know, one he's old enough, he's thirty two to

546
00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 5: not have had that part of his adolescence. The other

547
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 5: is twenty eight and she did. And you can even

548
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,360
Speaker 5: see in their different groups of friends, you know, they

549
00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 5: deal with social media in different ways, the younger one more.

550
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 5: I'll tell you a sad thing. I was having lunch

551
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 5: with Caroline, my wife. We were having a nice lunch

552
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,159
Speaker 5: in New York. It was a great restaurant and everything.

553
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 5: Then these people come sit next to us with this

554
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 5: one year old kid, and it was really cute, and

555
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 5: they were from another country and it was her birthday,

556
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,520
Speaker 5: so it was a birthday party. So they pull out

557
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 5: this presence, just one sitting in the high chair. They

558
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:01,159
Speaker 5: handed her a smartphone and for the rest of the

559
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 5: so called birthday party lunch, every one of them is

560
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 5: on their separate device, and Caroline and I are going,

561
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 5: oh my god. So I took out my phone to

562
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,359
Speaker 5: take a picture because I wanted to put up on

563
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 5: social media. She goes, don't do that, you know, which

564
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 5: is right. I shouldn't expose them, although I did get

565
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 5: a picture where you couldn't see identity.

566
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 3: But anyway, and you really should know better than that

567
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 3: first time.

568
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 5: I mean, what I wanted to share on social media.

569
00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 5: How scary social media can be. Because this kid, now, at.

570
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: One, you should have gone up to them and said, hey, yeah,

571
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 2: these are my credentials and I need to yeah, and

572
00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: said listen, I am a doctor that specializes in this.

573
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,960
Speaker 2: I have a degree from Harvard. I'm a neuropsychiatrist. Do

574
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: you understand the damage you are doing to your child's brain?

575
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,359
Speaker 5: And you rememborize what you're saying next time, I'm going

576
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 5: to do that.

577
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, come on, I mean, think about the impact that

578
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: would have had. Yeah, maybe it's unwelcome, but I mean

579
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 2: you're doing them a favor, you know, at least giving

580
00:27:58,200 --> 00:27:59,800
Speaker 2: them the information that they may not.

581
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 7: Be vy to.

582
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 5: What's so interesting, Chelsea, because there are times when I

583
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:12,880
Speaker 5: wonder about doing that, offering unrequested suggestions. Now my kids

584
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 5: are now adults, so that's that's a whole parenting adult

585
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 5: children thing where you actually intentionally don't do it. But

586
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 5: as a professional and a member of our you know,

587
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 5: human family, when do I offer stuff like that? So

588
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 5: it's a little tricky. I've tried it a few times

589
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 5: and it often does not go off well. So what

590
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,879
Speaker 5: I do is I keep a lot of my extra

591
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 5: parenting books in the car and then I just like

592
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 5: hand them out for free, like you know, Halloween, you know.

593
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 3: Trigger Yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess you know nobody.

594
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 2: I mean most people would say, don't give unsolicited advice.

595
00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: I obviously subscribe to a different theory. I think that

596
00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 2: sometimes I can hit somebody. I mean not always, but

597
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 2: sometimes you can get somebody who really hears you and

598
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 2: and you're doing them a service or a favor, you know.

599
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: I mean that is sad.

600
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, But you know, when you and I first met,

601
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 5: I really was impressed with how you like to learn

602
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 5: new stuff. What in you really empowers you to have

603
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 5: such a focus on lifelong learning, because when you came

604
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 5: to me, you weren't like an adolescent coming to me

605
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 5: for therapy. You know, I'm a child adolescent and adult therapist.

606
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 5: An adolescent can struggle with things, you know, you were

607
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 5: a full on adult accomplished a lot, but you came

608
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 5: to learn more, you know, and it's such a beautiful

609
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 5: thing that I think life will be the death of me.

610
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 5: Your book illustrates. But what is it that you can

611
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:35,479
Speaker 5: teach all of us about your lifelong learning nature?

612
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, thank you. I think that's a huge compliment.

613
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know that it's really I think

614
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:44,960
Speaker 2: I just am very curious, you know, Like I have

615
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 2: a curiosity that I've always had which has gotten me

616
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,160
Speaker 2: into lots of trouble as a child, like asking impertinent questions,

617
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 2: but being really curious about people's lives. And I love

618
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 2: interpersonal dynamics, like I just love like when I meet

619
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,920
Speaker 2: a family, like if I'm on and I get to

620
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,720
Speaker 2: meet brothers and sisters together with their parents and watching

621
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: the dynamics and like how they function. I just will

622
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: never get tired of that. And because I'm from such

623
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: a big family and we have so many additional family members,

624
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: because people get married and hook up and have boyfriends

625
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,840
Speaker 2: and girlfriends and children, it just gets more and more complex.

626
00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: And so for me, it was about becoming a better,

627
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: more self aware, fuller person. But curiosity, I think, you know,

628
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: I could listen to you talk about the brain and

629
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,479
Speaker 2: science for hours because I find that fascinating too, you know.

630
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: I mean there are things I don't find fascinating, like bitcoin,

631
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: you know that is when I talk about that, it's like, hmm, okay,

632
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,479
Speaker 2: I don't have I mean I had someone explain an

633
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: NFT to me finally where I was able to get

634
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 2: understand from the beginning to the end, and I was like,

635
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: oh my god, I want to I want to pay

636
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: you for that explanation because I now understand what an

637
00:30:57,600 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 2: NFT is.

638
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 5: Okay, well i'd have you tell me that, but.

639
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: We'll save that for another We'll save that for a

640
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: private conversation.

641
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 3: Yes, but thank you.

642
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:07,239
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know, I really don't know how

643
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 2: to answer that, but I do think that you know,

644
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: when you ask questions, you're signing up for just like

645
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 2: more knowledge, right, You're yeah, and especially if you have

646
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 2: the luxury of going to someone like you you have

647
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 2: so much experience, it's like it's a win win situation.

648
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 3: Yes, it's going to.

649
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: Be painful at times when you're doing inner work, of course,

650
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 2: because you have to face things about yourself that are

651
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: not pleasant and that are humiliating or embarrassing or however

652
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 2: you want to frame that. But bravery gets you to

653
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: a better place in life. I think you know, being

654
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 2: brave about finding out about yourself.

655
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 5: I think your journey in therapy it isn't everyone's experience

656
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 5: that they're so basically open to change. And I remember

657
00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 5: there was a moment and you say this in the

658
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 5: book so I can share it. You got very emotional

659
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,479
Speaker 5: about something, and I think there was an awareness that

660
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 5: you felt shouldn't be emotionally, shouldn't be crying, You shouldn't

661
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 5: have it right. One is lifelong learning, but the other

662
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 5: is openness to change.

663
00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: Well, yes, I would encourage everyone to always be curious

664
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 2: to learn.

665
00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 3: I mean learning is knowledge and knowledge is power, and

666
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 3: I want to be powerful. Okay, So should we go

667
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 3: ahead and take some callers.

668
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: I think that's a great idea, and I'm going to

669
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,040
Speaker 1: make us take a quick break before we do that.

670
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 3: I love breaks. Let's take one excellent.

671
00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 2: We had to call a right Catherine, that's going to

672
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: call back in because it's a man who's transitioned from

673
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 2: being a woman and he has a three year old

674
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,840
Speaker 2: daughter with his wife, and he was asking when the

675
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,000
Speaker 2: appropriate time is to explain all of those things to her,

676
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: and I thought, we have Dan coming up. I think

677
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: you'd be better suited to answer that question instead of me.

678
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: So I think we were able to get Alex on

679
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 2: the phone today, right Catherine.

680
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 4: Yes, his three year old daughter, Sutton.

681
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 1: He has a bottom surgery coming up in the next

682
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: year and a half, and so he's wondering how to

683
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 1: address those things with Sutton. So Hi Alex, Hello, Hi Alex,

684
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 1: Hey Alex, nice to meet you.

685
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 6: Nice to meet you. Thank you for having me.

686
00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, when you were on last time, I was like, oh,

687
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 2: you know what, I you know, we had a great conversation,

688
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: but I thought we have my doctor coming on next

689
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 2: and he would be better suited since he specializes in

690
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 2: adolescent brain development and childhood all.

691
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 3: Of this stuff.

692
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, he's here, so we were we thought maybe

693
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 2: you could give him a summary of your situation so

694
00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:37,920
Speaker 2: he could weigh in for sure.

695
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 5: Yeah.

696
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 6: Absolutely, thank you. So the situation really is is I

697
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 6: have a three year old and I am I'm the

698
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 6: cusp of going through the consultation process to have my

699
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 6: next major surgery as being a transgender and I really

700
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,959
Speaker 6: am going to be embarking upon a long journey of

701
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 6: about three to four surgeries to have everything happen, and

702
00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 6: it usually takes about a year year and a half

703
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 6: in long recovery times. And I wanted to do this

704
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 6: early in Sutton's development so that it wasn't kind of

705
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:12,400
Speaker 6: a core memory for her. But I'm just kind of

706
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 6: teetering on how much to be to tell a three

707
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 6: year old a four year old about what type of

708
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 6: surgery I'm having, the impact that it's going to have

709
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 6: to her life as well as what healing time is,

710
00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:26,320
Speaker 6: because it's not like I'm sick or going through anything

711
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 6: that's something that she should be worried about. More So,

712
00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 6: this is a great part of my journey, but it's

713
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 6: going to be impactful for her, So I just want

714
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 6: to make sure that I'm expressing both sides of it

715
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 6: and the reality of it, but also in a way

716
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,240
Speaker 6: that she's going to understand what's happening to Daddy.

717
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,880
Speaker 5: Well. She's so lucky to have you as a parent, Alex,

718
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:51,760
Speaker 5: because your intuition of tuning in and getting a feeling

719
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 5: of transparency that a family without secrets is a family

720
00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 5: that has you could call it a coherent narrative that

721
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 5: as a narrative about whatever is going on, even if

722
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 5: it's about something wasn't expected, which is usually where stories

723
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 5: come from. You know, is really important. And what is

724
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:14,920
Speaker 5: your heart and your gut? Literally we have three brains.

725
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 5: You have a brain in your head, you have a

726
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 5: brain in your heart, You have a brain in your

727
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 5: gut and what is your heart brain and your gut brain.

728
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 5: What are they telling your head brain that has the

729
00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:27,279
Speaker 5: words to speak, What are they signaling to you?

730
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 6: So I suppose if I was to refer to my heart,

731
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 6: I would say that I want to make sure that

732
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 6: she feels comforted in those times when I'm healing and I,

733
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 6: you know, can't be around her as much, can't play

734
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,520
Speaker 6: with her on as much or engage with her as

735
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 6: she expects. And then I guess my gut is kind

736
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 6: of telling me to be a little bit more worried

737
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 6: about kind of what the impact is going to have

738
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 6: and what I guess the optics are a big thing.

739
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 6: Optics of her going back to daycare, or talking about

740
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 6: what our family looks like at that time, or her

741
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 6: having to do everything with mom because I won't be

742
00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 6: able to get out of the house as well for

743
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 6: that amount of time. So yeah, I just want her

744
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 6: to feel like I'm still there just as I am

745
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 6: every single day now with being as able as I am.

746
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 5: That's fantastic. And you know, these two brains, when they

747
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,640
Speaker 5: send their wisdom up to your head brain, which has

748
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 5: kind of logic and thinking about things in that way,

749
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 5: what does your head brain say about the whole developmental

750
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 5: timing of when to speak with her?

751
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 6: I suppose my head brain is kind of kind of

752
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 6: being more logical. Hopefully it's it's on my side, but

753
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,680
Speaker 6: being more logical in the way that telling me that

754
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,480
Speaker 6: it's going to be okay, like this is only going

755
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 6: to be a blip in what our family development looks like.

756
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 6: And I hope that what comes out of it is

757
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:03,319
Speaker 6: that she sees that my happiness continues to grow on

758
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 6: my personal journey and that our family just becomes more

759
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 6: kind of united, that when she looks back on the time, yes,

760
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 6: it was trying in the grand scheme of how we

761
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 6: had to schedule things, and I wasn't there for you know,

762
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,360
Speaker 6: going and running outside as much. But after the healing,

763
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 6: life will go back to quote unquote normal and I

764
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,359
Speaker 6: will just have more happiness and more understanding of how

765
00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 6: I walk in the world. So that hopefully just makes

766
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 6: it easier for her and for our family to progress

767
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:33,160
Speaker 6: as a unit.

768
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,240
Speaker 5: That's so beautiful. Well, I mean, Alex, for me, you've

769
00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:41,200
Speaker 5: kind of answered the question in the deepest way of

770
00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 5: what feels right to you personally, what feels right to

771
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 5: you for your daughter, and then you know, when you're

772
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 5: turning to Chelsea and you know turning to me, you know,

773
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 5: as a person who writes about development, here's just added

774
00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 5: on top of your wisdom. I would just add the

775
00:37:57,280 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 5: following things. The way you're I think think approaching the

776
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 5: notion of a family story, the family narrative. And I

777
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 5: don't say story like a pretend story. I mean we

778
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 5: are narrative creatures. We tell the story of who we are,

779
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 5: and some families never do that. And there are all

780
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 5: sorts of secrets and all sorts of things that are

781
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 5: never talked about, you know, and then that shuts things down.

782
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 5: I mean, Chelsea, we could talk about that about when

783
00:38:24,200 --> 00:38:26,960
Speaker 5: your brother died that you've written about so powerfully in

784
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 5: your narrative of letting that come out and be the story.

785
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 5: So Alex, for you and for your whole family, everything

786
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 5: can be our teacher. You know, life happens, stuff that's

787
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:42,799
Speaker 5: challenging happens. And if we see things that are not

788
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 5: expected as challenges rather than as threats, then we bring

789
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 5: as a parent a very different attitude, like saying, you know,

790
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 5: we didn't expect this to happen. Now, how you then

791
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 5: make that health, promoting growth, promoting stress or distress is

792
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 5: what I think your beautiful question is doing. You're saying,

793
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:07,440
Speaker 5: this is going to be stressful, that's fine. Life is

794
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:10,760
Speaker 5: that's meaningful and stressful. How do we allow this to

795
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 5: turn into a positive, growth promoting, challenging experience rather than

796
00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:19,600
Speaker 5: a threat? And the answer is what you've already told us.

797
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,399
Speaker 5: You're ready to be fully present with your daughter. You're

798
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:28,000
Speaker 5: being fully present with yourself, and so you know you

799
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 5: could turn to the people who are involved in the

800
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 5: surgery and the centers you're working with and ask them

801
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 5: this question too, which I urge you to do. From

802
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 5: my point of view, it's not my area of specialty,

803
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 5: but as a child specialist, what I would say is

804
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 5: this is every child's a little different terms of their temperament,

805
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 5: and every child's a little different in terms of their

806
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 5: attachment to different caregivers. But the commonality across temperament and

807
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 5: attachment is to tell a story that makes sense of things.

808
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 5: So in a book I wrote called Parenting from the

809
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 5: Inside Out, it's sort of tea you how to bring

810
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 5: those stories. Or I wrote that with Mary Hartzel, a

811
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 5: book I wrote with Tina Payne Bryson is called The

812
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 5: Power of Showing Up. Those two books would be great

813
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 5: ones for you to actually read before you tell her

814
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 5: the story, because they show that whatever the age, people

815
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,399
Speaker 5: ask this about kids whore adopted, When should I tell

816
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 5: my adopted kid whenever you bring it? Two, three, four.

817
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 5: She's old enough now to be able to hear a

818
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 5: story as you know, to want to hear it again

819
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 5: and again and again and again, and so you have

820
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:36,600
Speaker 5: to be ready to like be repeating yourself. But that's fine.

821
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,839
Speaker 5: And when she sees the love in your heart, when

822
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 5: she feels that your gut is really behind this and

823
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 5: your head is now bringing the words to make a story,

824
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 5: makes sense. She's ready at three unless there's some of

825
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:53,799
Speaker 5: the other issue that says, let's hold it off. But

826
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,720
Speaker 5: if the surgery is happening, soon been telling the story,

827
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 5: even having you know, toys that allow you know, enact story.

828
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 5: And here's what I would say, this is not just

829
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 5: about the surgery, but about the general idea of transitioning

830
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:12,320
Speaker 5: is people they don't understand that gender identity is different

831
00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 5: than assigned sex, whether you have a penis or vagina.

832
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 5: When I used to be pediatrics and we'd go to

833
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:21,400
Speaker 5: the delivery room to help with the baby. You'd see

834
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,800
Speaker 5: the outer manifestation and say boy or girl. But gender

835
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 5: identity is actually along an entire continuum because the brain

836
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 5: of mammals can be hugely female, which it starts out

837
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 5: as in all of us. But then the way the

838
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 5: testosterone that's secreted by the testicles crosses the blood brain

839
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 5: barrier into various degrees masculinizes that brain to be a

840
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:51,280
Speaker 5: teeny bit masculine but mostly feminine, or middle way both ways,

841
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,720
Speaker 5: or all the way masculine. Your gender identity is based

842
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 5: on that, and it's not yes or no. It's not

843
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 5: like a switch on or off, you know, girl. So

844
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,320
Speaker 5: just explaining it that way, even like a switch, you say,

845
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 5: what we look like for most of us ninety eight

846
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 5: percent of us outwardly when we're born, is like a switch.

847
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 5: It's on or off. It's boy or girl. But actually

848
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 5: gender identity is not like that. It's more like a

849
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 5: thermostat We have all these degrees, and you can't tell

850
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 5: a person's gender identity from the outside. And I had

851
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 5: one gender identity in my sign sex with something else.

852
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 5: So I'm in the good fortune of making sense of

853
00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:32,800
Speaker 5: that and so I'm going to make my outside match

854
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 5: my inside. That's the story, right, So she at three,

855
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:38,879
Speaker 5: she's gonna get that. And when I work with kids

856
00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:41,720
Speaker 5: who are like four or five who are assigned gender

857
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 5: is one thing, but a gender identity is the other.

858
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 5: I talk to them about that and the parents say, oh,

859
00:42:48,080 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 5: but this is going to be challenging. Oh yeah, but

860
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 5: this is the way it is. And this person could

861
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 5: be incredibly healthy and happy if you, as their parents,

862
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 5: let them see. This is just what happened. And life

863
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 5: is about always exploring and learning and growing and this

864
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 5: is a beautiful thing and it works out fine. Whereas

865
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 5: as you know, if people say no, no, no, you

866
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:11,880
Speaker 5: can't do that, that's when it's a problem. So is

867
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 5: that part of the what you've learned in your journey?

868
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 6: Absolutely, And making sure that having a daughter that's kind

869
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:21,000
Speaker 6: of going through this journey as a part of my journey,

870
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,359
Speaker 6: I feel it's my responsibility as her parent to make

871
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 6: sure that the environments that she is in, the people

872
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 6: have that positive outlook. And that's what I'm trying to

873
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 6: do as well, which is why it's just nerve wracking,

874
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:37,919
Speaker 6: you know, raising a kid in this day and age

875
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,760
Speaker 6: and I'm from We're in a small town in West Michigan,

876
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,800
Speaker 6: so it's a little bit difficult, but I think exactly

877
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,839
Speaker 6: like you said, creating that narrative for my family that

878
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 6: makes a positive space no matter what challenges come about

879
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 6: is a great way to put it, because no one

880
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 6: writes that story or that narrative but us.

881
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:01,359
Speaker 5: Yes, exactly exactly. You know you might enjoy also and

882
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 5: give me these references. But there's a book called Brainstorm

883
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 5: I wrote for adolescents which talks about how parents can

884
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 5: approach when a child themselves is having a different This

885
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:15,799
Speaker 5: is I think with sexual orientation issue, but the same thing.

886
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 5: You know, parents have one expectation, a kid comes out

887
00:44:18,960 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 5: the other way. How that works out. This would be

888
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 5: the flip side where you're going to come as the

889
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 5: parent to teach your child that what she may be

890
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:31,080
Speaker 5: learning in school or on television is one extreme and

891
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 5: that is actually more subtle. And so she has the

892
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,080
Speaker 5: incredible fortune of having you as a parent who will

893
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 5: guide her through a deeper notion of the way things

894
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 5: actually are, which is a beautiful gift you're going to

895
00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 5: give her.

896
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 6: Thank you, I appreciate that, and I appreciate your advice,

897
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,680
Speaker 6: and thank you for having me so that I could

898
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 6: have that conversation and get that.

899
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:50,879
Speaker 5: I appreciate it.

900
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: Well.

901
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 5: I hope we'll be able to check in with you

902
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,400
Speaker 5: and see how it all goes y.

903
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:55,080
Speaker 2: Thank you.

904
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 3: I love that by alex Hi.

905
00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:58,759
Speaker 6: Thank you so much.

906
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:02,960
Speaker 2: Ah, that was perfect, awesome, I'm wonderful.

907
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, really connecting the dots here.

908
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,280
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, and I loved what you said too about

909
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: gender being so separate from the actual physical sex. It

910
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: actually goes with another question that someone wrote in, but

911
00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 1: this one really directly relates to what you were saying.

912
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: So this question is from Monica, whose child Kira, has

913
00:45:26,880 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 1: told Monica that they'd like to go by them pronounce so,

914
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: Monica says, Dear Chelsea love the podcast. We have a

915
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 1: fifteen year old daughter who came out to us as

916
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: non binary a few months ago. She tells us that

917
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,479
Speaker 1: all of her friends referred to her as they slash them.

918
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:44,799
Speaker 1: A couple of years ago, she told us she was bisexual.

919
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,240
Speaker 1: I laughed and told her that it was a trend.

920
00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: I didn't handle that well, obviously, trying to do this

921
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: one better. We live in Boulder, Colorado, in a very

922
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:56,279
Speaker 1: liberal setting where It's hard to tell if this is

923
00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 1: a trendy choice or an actual feeling that she's going with.

924
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:03,839
Speaker 1: Her friends are either bisexual, non binary, or trans. We

925
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: love that this generation can explore their sexuality, unlike we were.

926
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:10,680
Speaker 4: Able to do growing up. The hard part is the labels.

927
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 1: I feel like at this point in her life she

928
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 1: doesn't have to label her sexuality.

929
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:15,800
Speaker 4: Am I wrong?

930
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: My husband and I don't feel comfortable referring to her

931
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,320
Speaker 1: as they slash them. We're both very open and liberal.

932
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:24,640
Speaker 1: We believe that people should love whomever they want to

933
00:46:24,680 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: love to find happiness. For some reason, we're having a

934
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 1: hard time with this one. We support her in every

935
00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: single way, and whoever she wants to love would completely support.

936
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:37,240
Speaker 1: She's single at the moment. The issue is the pronouns.

937
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: We've talked to her about this and have told her

938
00:46:39,640 --> 00:46:41,880
Speaker 1: that we support her, but we don't feel comfortable switching

939
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 1: pronouns at this point. She says, she understands. Are my

940
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: husband and I complete assholes? Thanks for your time, Monica.

941
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 5: Well, thank you Catherine for sharing Monica's question. There is

942
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:59,640
Speaker 5: so much to say about her reflections. Yes, the first

943
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 5: broadest statement to make is the more you know the

944
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:09,279
Speaker 5: less you see, and what that means is the way

945
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 5: the brain is constructed. It kind of has has a

946
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 5: way of learning, learning, learning, learning, learning, and then to

947
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 5: speed things up, it then makes categories which have concepts

948
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 5: then that emerge from them in words like boy or girl.

949
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 5: So by the time you're you know, very young, you

950
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:28,960
Speaker 5: figured out, okay, i'm a boy, I'm a girl. You

951
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 5: know that one's a boy, that one's a girl. You

952
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 5: know those are categories, right, and they kind of make

953
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,560
Speaker 5: sense from anatomy. But as we pointed out, you're assigned sex,

954
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 5: which is what your external anatomy is, is actually not

955
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 5: always correlated with the feeling inside of who you are

956
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,279
Speaker 5: or the feeling of who you're sexually aroused by. That

957
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 5: often comes up initially you can feel it when you're

958
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 5: four or five. Then it kind of goes quiet for

959
00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 5: a little while, but then it gets really active around

960
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 5: eleven twelve thirteen when adolescence hits. So you know, sexual

961
00:48:03,760 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 5: orientation is the phrase we use for who you're sexually

962
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 5: attracted to, and so it can be for people of

963
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 5: your same assigned sex, and you call that one thing

964
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 5: or different assigned sex, and we call that something else

965
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 5: and so being open to your sexual orientation who you're

966
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:24,840
Speaker 5: attracted to, that's one thing. So when you use a

967
00:48:24,840 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 5: word like bisexual, that's different than the they them stories,

968
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 5: So that should we should just be really clear about that.

969
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 5: So the day them is about gender identity. What I'd

970
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,440
Speaker 5: like to do if Monica Herod ask her, but I'll

971
00:48:36,480 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 5: ask you, Catherine and you Chelsea about this. You know,

972
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 5: people have asked me to put my gender identity in

973
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 5: my little box at the bottom of a zoom call

974
00:48:45,560 --> 00:48:48,839
Speaker 5: or any kind of platform. My mom and I thought

975
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 5: about it, and I thought, you know, I actually don't

976
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 5: feel like particularly a he. I don't feel like a she.

977
00:48:56,640 --> 00:49:00,719
Speaker 5: I don't feel like a they. Actually I barely feel

978
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:03,319
Speaker 5: like a Dan. I know that's kind of an illusion too.

979
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 5: So I've been putting ABCD, which is like an abbreviation

980
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 5: for a body called Dan, you know, because even that's

981
00:49:11,040 --> 00:49:13,840
Speaker 5: an illusion. You know, we're all kind of manifestations of

982
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 5: the same essence popping up in a body for about

983
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 5: one hundred years.

984
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: So one hundred Jesus Dan. I mean, yeah, well that's

985
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:23,760
Speaker 2: a long time.

986
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 5: I know, I get superstitious. Okay, fine, So anyway, let's

987
00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 5: just put it that way, you know. So I say

988
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 5: that because the world needs us to broaden our identity

989
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,439
Speaker 5: from just the bodies we're in and realize in terms

990
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,640
Speaker 5: of racial justice, social justice issues, and racism. You know,

991
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 5: we're part of one human family, and also we're part

992
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 5: of the family of all living beings in terms of

993
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,839
Speaker 5: what we're destroying biodiversity in the climate. So yeah, they say,

994
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 5: say whether you're he or she or they, and I go, well,

995
00:49:57,560 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 5: actually I want to say none of the above. There's

996
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 5: a lot to write, and then it gets people angry.

997
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 5: So when I don't put it on my little name tag,

998
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 5: it's not it's not because I'm being like dismissive of it.

999
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 5: I actually I don't want to be put into buying.

1000
00:50:14,760 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 5: So I don't know how do the two of you

1001
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,160
Speaker 5: feel when people ask you to do that, because it's

1002
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 5: it's a personal, very personal thing.

1003
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 2: Catherine, you identify, right, you label that I know on

1004
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: your emails.

1005
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 3: And yeah, I do.

1006
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 1: I do it really as a support for people who

1007
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 1: may not use traditional pronouns.

1008
00:50:32,719 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 4: And it was tricky for me in the beginning.

1009
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,879
Speaker 1: I have a few friends who are non binary, and

1010
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: it was tricky in the beginning, and now just after

1011
00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: practicing it sort of suddenly feels like the most natural

1012
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: thing in the world. Like said to my husband's day.

1013
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: You know, we're going to our friend Ash's birthday and

1014
00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: it's at you know, seven o'clock, and they want us

1015
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 1: to be there. Da da da da, And it just

1016
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,960
Speaker 1: suddenly feels like the most natural thing in the world

1017
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: to use those pronouns for someone else. It takes a

1018
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: little bit of practice, but you can come around.

1019
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:07,720
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1020
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 2: And more importantly, it's important to respect people's decisions about themselves.

1021
00:51:12,760 --> 00:51:16,120
Speaker 2: Whether it's a fad or a trend. That's not your

1022
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: decision either. Even though you're a parent, you don't get

1023
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,120
Speaker 2: to decide if it's a fad or a trend. But

1024
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: respecting your child's decision and respecting their choices goes a

1025
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 2: long way into the future of your relationship with your child.

1026
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 2: When you give them agency and you give them license

1027
00:51:31,680 --> 00:51:33,719
Speaker 2: to be themselves, then it's not going to be a

1028
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 2: problem if in five years she's like he or she

1029
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 2: or they decides that they want to be referred to

1030
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 2: as a girl again, or that they're not they don't

1031
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 2: feel non binary or any of it. But I think

1032
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 2: you are doing your child a disservice when you're not

1033
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: respecting something. That is not an easy thing for them

1034
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,920
Speaker 2: to say. It's not easy for that. You have to

1035
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 2: think about that, you know, and you can say you're supportive,

1036
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 2: but that you're not. You don't feel comfortable calling them

1037
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,920
Speaker 2: they is actually not really being supportive.

1038
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1039
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: And the other thing too, is it's not a huge

1040
00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: thing to give away. You know, it's not changing who

1041
00:52:09,680 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: your child is fundamentally. It's not a wild leap to say,

1042
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:16,200
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm just going to go with this.

1043
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: I'm going to say they them. I might slip up,

1044
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,759
Speaker 1: but I'm going to try my best. And you know,

1045
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,160
Speaker 1: supporting your child's in whatever way you can. And like

1046
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,720
Speaker 1: Chelsea said, these things.

1047
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:29,480
Speaker 4: Can pass or maybe they won't.

1048
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: And you're allowing your child to discover who they are

1049
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: by supporting who they are right now, because that is

1050
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: always going to change. Whether their pronouns change or not,

1051
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:40,400
Speaker 1: they're going to continue to change.

1052
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1053
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 5: I concur with what you're both saying. And I think

1054
00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 5: it becomes challenging when parents get really upset. When some schools,

1055
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 5: like here in Los Angeles, they'll have a whole day

1056
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 5: of discussing gender identity and that you have choices of

1057
00:52:56,920 --> 00:52:59,400
Speaker 5: names you used and you should look inward, which I

1058
00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 5: think is actually fantastic. And some parents get all agitated

1059
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 5: about it because they think it is making a child

1060
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,040
Speaker 5: be confused, but it's actually, I think just informing a

1061
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:15,960
Speaker 5: child and freeing a child like Monica's daughter is or

1062
00:53:16,560 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 5: I don't know if you do use the words daughter

1063
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 5: here Monica's child. Let's say that way. So we have

1064
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 5: a moment where as a parent you can take a

1065
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 5: deep breath and say, if your child comes to you,

1066
00:53:27,160 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 5: to empower them, to explore the actual biological reality that

1067
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:38,520
Speaker 5: gender identity is independent of assigned sex at birth. People.

1068
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:41,160
Speaker 5: I remember when I was a kid where that wasn't

1069
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 5: a part of our discussion. They suffered so much. And

1070
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 5: when schools introduced this or this podcast or all the

1071
00:53:49,040 --> 00:53:51,399
Speaker 5: ways we can just make it a part of our conversation.

1072
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 5: It is a biological fact that gender identity develops in

1073
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 5: its own way that can be independent in an extreme

1074
00:54:02,080 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 5: or subtlely or aligned with yours signed sex. So to

1075
00:54:06,440 --> 00:54:09,480
Speaker 5: name it as something that's very real in our lives,

1076
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,880
Speaker 5: I think is going to really help with everyone. Even

1077
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,840
Speaker 5: if your gender identity matches your signed sex, You're going

1078
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 5: to understand that there are other people where that's not

1079
00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:23,600
Speaker 5: the case, and instead of feeling uncomfortable like Monica feels,

1080
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,399
Speaker 5: which you know, we feel uncomfortable when things don't match

1081
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 5: your expectations. So I hope listening to this conversation will

1082
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:36,680
Speaker 5: help Monica and her child's bother to feel we're learning

1083
00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:39,759
Speaker 5: something to and to be lifelong learners is a really

1084
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 5: important stance today.

1085
00:54:45,520 --> 00:54:50,320
Speaker 1: Our last color today is Katie. Katie says, Dear Chelsea,

1086
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,799
Speaker 1: the last nearly two years of my life have been

1087
00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:57,959
Speaker 1: the most intense, devastating and transformational time of my entire

1088
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 1: twenty one years. In member of twenty twenty, my older

1089
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 1: brother and only sibling died extremely suddenly from a brain

1090
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 1: aneurysm at twenty two years old. Needless to say, this

1091
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 1: loss has been extremely difficult to navigate and my entire

1092
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 1: outlook on life has completely changed.

1093
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 4: I know you were very.

1094
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:17,680
Speaker 1: Young when you lost your brother, and I feel as

1095
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 1: though we were similar in how that type of loss

1096
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: affected us. After the first few months of complete shock

1097
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 1: and fear that I would lose my parents to heartbreak

1098
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,239
Speaker 1: over the death of their son, I started to get

1099
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,960
Speaker 1: really angry at the world, which was completely unlike my

1100
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: old self. I have done a lot of therapy to

1101
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:36,320
Speaker 1: overcome some of that anger, but I still struggled daily

1102
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 1: to comprehend how my smart, wonderful, and seemingly perfectly healthy

1103
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 1: brother is gone and never coming back. I also find

1104
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,480
Speaker 1: meeting new people to be emotionally draining, as sometimes the

1105
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,160
Speaker 1: do you have siblings question comes up, and without fail

1106
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:54,719
Speaker 1: this always makes me spiral. I feel nervous opening up

1107
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: about my brother because I feel like people in their

1108
00:55:56,840 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: early twenties are not equipped to talk about loss and death.

1109
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: It's almost taboo in some ways. What has helped you

1110
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:07,200
Speaker 1: with accepting and understanding such severe and sudden loss at

1111
00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: such a young age, And how do I combat how

1112
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: his death has caused me to struggle with coping in

1113
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: other areas of my life?

1114
00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 3: Katie, Hi, Katie, Hi, Hi Katie.

1115
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: It's your lucky day because my psychiatrist Dan is here

1116
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 2: with us as our guest today. Oh wow, who helped

1117
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 2: guide me through my grief and my new reality which

1118
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,239
Speaker 2: I had. You know a lot of delayed grief, So

1119
00:56:31,320 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 2: it's good that you're talking about it not so long

1120
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 2: after it's happening, and that you're facing these issues because

1121
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:41,879
Speaker 2: it's it is a big, big, unexpected obstacle that has

1122
00:56:42,000 --> 00:56:44,120
Speaker 2: happened to you, you know, and it's not something that

1123
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:46,800
Speaker 2: you're not going to get through, but it's so difficult

1124
00:56:46,880 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 2: and only other people who have lost the sibling can

1125
00:56:49,040 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 2: really relate or understand. So Dan, do you want to

1126
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: take the lead on this and I'll chime in sure.

1127
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 5: First of all, Katie, thank you so much for reaching

1128
00:56:58,760 --> 00:57:03,000
Speaker 5: out to Chelsea to really share your experience and share

1129
00:57:03,040 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 5: your question. I'll ask you, when you were actually putting

1130
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:09,880
Speaker 5: this question together and sending it off, what were you

1131
00:57:10,000 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 5: feeling inside of you that allowed you to feel like

1132
00:57:14,480 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 5: you could articulate it in a sense go public with it.

1133
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 5: What was going on inside of you?

1134
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:24,840
Speaker 7: It was, honestly, Chelsea, because I watched Evolution with my mom,

1135
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:27,439
Speaker 7: and I don't think either of us had ever really

1136
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:30,800
Speaker 7: seen somebody talk about death like so raw and just

1137
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:34,120
Speaker 7: so open like that. And I don't know, it just

1138
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 7: like really spoke to me and we didn't say a

1139
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 7: word the entire time. All we did was cry and laugh,

1140
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:42,160
Speaker 7: and yeah, I don't know. I just felt so kind

1141
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,200
Speaker 7: of like I felt empowered by it, and I was like,

1142
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:46,080
Speaker 7: you know, what, I'd love to talk to her because

1143
00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:48,280
Speaker 7: there was a lot of parallels between what you were

1144
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:51,800
Speaker 7: saying and what I've definitely been feeling, and so yeah,

1145
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 7: I definitely felt like there was like a bit of

1146
00:57:53,840 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 7: a connection there. And like you guys said, like, not

1147
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 7: a lot of people go through what I've gone through

1148
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 7: and Chelsea has, So yeah, definitely that was empowering for

1149
00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 7: me when.

1150
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 5: You saw that someone could really look at the death

1151
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,640
Speaker 5: of a sibling. In this case, you both shared the

1152
00:58:10,680 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 5: loss of your brothers. Was there something in what Chelsea

1153
00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 5: shared an evolution that especially spoke to you?

1154
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 7: Yeah. Absolutely. I think the main thing was like the anger,

1155
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 7: because I was never an angry person. I was always

1156
00:58:25,040 --> 00:58:27,600
Speaker 7: really calm, you know, quite put together and everything, and

1157
00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 7: then I started to have these feelings of anger when

1158
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 7: the numbness started to go away, and it just was

1159
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 7: so unlike me, and I was just so kind of

1160
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,560
Speaker 7: mad at the world like that it took him because

1161
00:58:38,600 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 7: he was just such a wonderful, kind human and he

1162
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 7: truly just like he was just such a light in

1163
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,000
Speaker 7: this world and it just felt so wrong. And so

1164
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:50,200
Speaker 7: the anger that she had and how that leaks into

1165
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,440
Speaker 7: other areas of your life I think that's kind of

1166
00:58:52,480 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 7: where I drew like a lot, like I just I

1167
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,040
Speaker 7: just totally connected to that because it was like, WHOA,

1168
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 7: this is affecting how I see every area of my life,

1169
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 7: not just death and loss. It was you know, in

1170
00:59:04,600 --> 00:59:09,120
Speaker 7: school with friends everything. Then bitterness too when people talked

1171
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:11,919
Speaker 7: about like their siblings, and it was like, I'm self

1172
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:13,960
Speaker 7: aware enough to know, like, it's not right. I don't

1173
00:59:14,000 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 7: want to be bitter about other people because they should

1174
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:18,440
Speaker 7: get to express their love for their siblings that are alive,

1175
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 7: and that makes me happy. I'm still happy for them,

1176
00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 7: but I couldn't help but still feel bitter, you know,

1177
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,040
Speaker 7: and angry. So definitely those feelings of anger that Chelsea

1178
00:59:28,120 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 7: talked about, I definitely connected to that a lot. That's

1179
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 7: what made me start to realize WHOA like I got

1180
00:59:33,400 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 7: to I have to seek out like therapy and stuff

1181
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 7: like that because I tried to do it myself for

1182
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:41,000
Speaker 7: I think the first eight months, and yeah, it just

1183
00:59:41,120 --> 00:59:43,959
Speaker 7: wasn't working and I could just see down the line

1184
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:45,120
Speaker 7: it would just start to get worse.

1185
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 2: I want to just jump in and just say, you

1186
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 2: have such a huge opportunity for growth right now for

1187
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 2: you to be facing this so soon after it happened,

1188
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 2: means like you have such a bigger advantage, Like I

1189
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:58,479
Speaker 2: didn't face this. I went thirty years without being able

1190
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 2: to deal with my emotions, you know. So you're so

1191
01:00:01,320 --> 01:00:03,439
Speaker 2: young and you're vibrant, and you're going to be able

1192
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: to get through this. And I just want to say

1193
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: something that's so important for you to hear. It's like,

1194
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: when you think of how amazing your brother was and

1195
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 2: what a light he was in this world, he would

1196
01:00:12,840 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 2: hate to see you in pain. He would hate to

1197
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: see you feeling bitter.

1198
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 3: He would not want that.

1199
01:00:18,640 --> 01:00:21,520
Speaker 2: So in honor of him, you've got to do the

1200
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:23,920
Speaker 2: work to get yourself out of that anger and bitterness,

1201
01:00:23,960 --> 01:00:26,080
Speaker 2: because you want to be able to celebrate a life

1202
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 2: that he had and live your life with him in it,

1203
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 2: in honor of him and with him, because he's still

1204
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:33,200
Speaker 2: with you.

1205
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 3: You know.

1206
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, just because he's gone doesn't mean he's gone from you.

1207
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:40,000
Speaker 2: He's still within you and your parents, and that is

1208
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 2: a beautiful thing, and that is the like that you

1209
01:00:42,560 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 2: should think about getting to spread when you move forward

1210
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:45,960
Speaker 2: in your life.

1211
01:00:46,240 --> 01:00:49,680
Speaker 7: Yeah. Absolutely, And he truly would be so unhappy, he

1212
01:00:49,720 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 7: would be so upset if he saw like this affect

1213
01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 7: us long term because again like just such a selfless

1214
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 7: human being, and he just would not he would he'd

1215
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:00,240
Speaker 7: be angry with us, to be honest, if we let

1216
01:01:00,240 --> 01:01:02,560
Speaker 7: it get us down for a really long time, he

1217
01:01:02,600 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 7: would not be happy with us for sure.

1218
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 5: It's such a beautiful invitation of Katie that you're inviting

1219
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:14,280
Speaker 5: us to really look this question what helped? And Chelsea,

1220
01:01:14,440 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 5: you're bringing up, you know, this notion of what the sibling,

1221
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 5: what the brother would actually want for you. The experience

1222
01:01:22,360 --> 01:01:25,600
Speaker 5: of grief, which is the word we use for when

1223
01:01:25,640 --> 01:01:28,960
Speaker 5: someone we love that's really important our life dies or

1224
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:32,680
Speaker 5: goes away and we can't reach them. That loss is huge.

1225
01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 5: So grief goes through stages and it really invites you

1226
01:01:38,480 --> 01:01:42,200
Speaker 5: to bring into awareness all the different feelings you're having.

1227
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 5: And as Chelsea points out, you know you are doing that, Katie,

1228
01:01:45,600 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 5: and your notion of self awareness is really important and

1229
01:01:49,520 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 5: there are things you can do to expand that. You know,

1230
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,640
Speaker 5: with Chelsea we would do meditation in particular, this thing

1231
01:01:55,720 --> 01:01:58,320
Speaker 5: called the wheel of awareness. You can get this book

1232
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 5: called Aware or Becoming Aware, the workbook where you will

1233
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 5: learn to actually enrich that ability to be aware and

1234
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:08,400
Speaker 5: that can help the grief process. To just let the

1235
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:11,920
Speaker 5: anger there be in awareness. You don't have to do

1236
01:02:11,960 --> 01:02:15,160
Speaker 5: anything with it. It can just teach you something. The

1237
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 5: other emotions that are really basic when something like this

1238
01:02:18,160 --> 01:02:23,120
Speaker 5: happens are sadness and fear. So a loss like this

1239
01:02:23,240 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 5: at a young age that can rock your world because

1240
01:02:26,760 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 5: you don't expect someone young to die. You expect someone older,

1241
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:35,080
Speaker 5: way older to die. So when something unexpected like that happens,

1242
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 5: it can lead to fear, It can lead to sadness,

1243
01:02:37,240 --> 01:02:40,160
Speaker 5: and it can lead to anger where the fear is like,

1244
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 5: oh my god, things aren't safe, nothing, I can't rely

1245
01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 5: on anything. The sadness is there was a connection that's

1246
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:49,120
Speaker 5: ripped from me, and I have such a longing to

1247
01:02:49,200 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 5: be with my brother, but it's it's not there, when

1248
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 5: in fact it's just like Chelsea said, he's inside you,

1249
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:59,240
Speaker 5: but him being alive in his body now that's changed.

1250
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 5: So you want to deal with that feeling. You can't

1251
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:04,360
Speaker 5: just call him up and talk to his actual self.

1252
01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,040
Speaker 5: You can deal with the inner self of your brother.

1253
01:03:07,680 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 5: And the anger, you know, is about something is wrong

1254
01:03:12,320 --> 01:03:14,880
Speaker 5: that needs to be righted right. So anger is like

1255
01:03:14,920 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 5: this drive to correct you know sadness is like a

1256
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 5: drive to connect, and in many ways, fear is a

1257
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:25,440
Speaker 5: drive to protect. Right, those are the three in the brain.

1258
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 5: They're deep, deep in the brain, so they're really really foundational.

1259
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 5: As you're pointing out, the anger then starts spreading over

1260
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:36,040
Speaker 5: all these things. So the idea of finding a practice,

1261
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 5: whether it's in therapy or doing like a meditation that

1262
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:43,600
Speaker 5: gives you time to just be with your emotions. And

1263
01:03:43,640 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 5: then the grief process once you give yourself that respect

1264
01:03:47,400 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 5: to just feel what you feel, talk about it, write

1265
01:03:50,720 --> 01:03:54,440
Speaker 5: in a journal about it, do meditative, reflect the reflection

1266
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,919
Speaker 5: on it. Then it will have its natural course. Don't

1267
01:03:57,960 --> 01:04:02,200
Speaker 5: worry about the timing, but do give respect to all

1268
01:04:02,200 --> 01:04:05,320
Speaker 5: the emotions are there, and they will then take their

1269
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:09,640
Speaker 5: natural path. And in many ways, grief as it goes

1270
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 5: forward becomes meaning making. That is, you say, I didn't

1271
01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:18,280
Speaker 5: plan for my brother to die, but my brother would

1272
01:04:18,400 --> 01:04:22,040
Speaker 5: want me to actually make sense of how this has

1273
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 5: impacted me. And as Chelsea has done, you know, with

1274
01:04:25,840 --> 01:04:31,040
Speaker 5: her wonderful work. Now to take a loss that really

1275
01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:34,640
Speaker 5: as you've shared with the world, Chelsea, you know, your

1276
01:04:34,680 --> 01:04:37,600
Speaker 5: way of dealing with that pain was to shut it

1277
01:04:37,760 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 5: off the emotions, but now to share with the world.

1278
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:45,440
Speaker 5: You don't know, Katie, how the sadness and really profound

1279
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 5: loss of your brother dying unexpectedly like this. It was

1280
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,920
Speaker 5: no one's fault, aneurisms happened. All the ways that you

1281
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 5: can bring the emotional learning from this will be a

1282
01:04:57,760 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 5: meaning that you can make this. There's a number of

1283
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,840
Speaker 5: things about hope and about joy that there are wonderful

1284
01:05:04,840 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 5: books on this. There's it called a book called the

1285
01:05:06,520 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 5: Book of Hope and a Book of Joy that I

1286
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:11,040
Speaker 5: think you'd love because what it says is that the

1287
01:05:11,200 --> 01:05:14,280
Speaker 5: sorrows in the world, whether it's a personal loss or

1288
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,960
Speaker 5: the loss in biodiversity with what we're facing the climate,

1289
01:05:17,040 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 5: or the challenges of social justice, all these can get

1290
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 5: us all angry, sad, fearful. And what we want to

1291
01:05:23,720 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 5: do is take those emotions and allow ourselves to feel

1292
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,760
Speaker 5: them fully, but then really keep hope alive, a kind

1293
01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:34,160
Speaker 5: of active hope that a writer named Joanna Masi calls

1294
01:05:34,160 --> 01:05:38,040
Speaker 5: it active hope, where you're really turning that pain into

1295
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,360
Speaker 5: actually something positive in the world, and not only having hope,

1296
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:43,280
Speaker 5: but having a sense of joy. And I think if

1297
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 5: your brother were watching us now and he said, my

1298
01:05:47,640 --> 01:05:53,240
Speaker 5: dear sister Katie can hold on to hope and can

1299
01:05:53,280 --> 01:05:56,560
Speaker 5: be joyful in this life. What would he feel about that?

1300
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's a really good point, Alice Tears, That's really good. Yeah,

1301
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:06,120
Speaker 7: I honestly like you bring up a really good point too,

1302
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 7: in the fact that, like I have grown, like so

1303
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 7: much from this loss, and like the way I view

1304
01:06:11,440 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 7: the world in good ways too, and my desire to

1305
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:17,640
Speaker 7: make my parents proud, even though I know I would

1306
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:19,800
Speaker 7: make them proud if I did nothing, because they're just

1307
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 7: the most wonderful people in the entire world. But yeah,

1308
01:06:22,840 --> 01:06:25,400
Speaker 7: like he really has allowed me to see the world

1309
01:06:25,440 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 7: so much clearer, and I just feel like I'm going

1310
01:06:28,360 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 7: to do such great things because I've grown so much

1311
01:06:31,440 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 7: from this And yeah, you're right, like it is it

1312
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,080
Speaker 7: is a choice too to wake up every single day

1313
01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 7: and you know, choose happiness despite all the pain. And

1314
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 7: that's what I've really been working on, is just choosing

1315
01:06:43,200 --> 01:06:44,959
Speaker 7: to be happy because at the end of the day,

1316
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 7: you know, like the random cruelty of him being taken away,

1317
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 7: it has to be a choice for me to keep

1318
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:53,320
Speaker 7: going and to do it for him and to do

1319
01:06:53,360 --> 01:06:56,000
Speaker 7: it for my parents. And I find that that's really

1320
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 7: helped me too, is like letting myself feel those emotions

1321
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 7: and yeah, growing from it, like you said, like it

1322
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 7: is there's power in that.

1323
01:07:04,280 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 2: There's also something Dan taught me. Losing somebody is like

1324
01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:12,000
Speaker 2: a robbery. You've been robbed, you know, and that's how

1325
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:15,560
Speaker 2: it feels. It feels you're violated and you cannot make

1326
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:17,800
Speaker 2: sense of it. But are you going to spend your

1327
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:22,320
Speaker 2: entire life harboring such anger towards those robbers?

1328
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:24,920
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? Because are you going to

1329
01:07:25,000 --> 01:07:27,080
Speaker 3: spend your energy doing that? No, you're not.

1330
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 2: You want to be a light for your parents. You

1331
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,520
Speaker 2: want to be help your parents heal. It's not your responsibility,

1332
01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 2: but you can. You know, you can be a light

1333
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 2: for them as well. And when you're talking about emotions

1334
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 2: coming up, something that Dan and I talked about a

1335
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:43,280
Speaker 2: lot was like, where are you feeling something?

1336
01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:43,560
Speaker 7: You know?

1337
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:45,560
Speaker 3: Are you feeling it in your chest? Do you feel

1338
01:07:45,600 --> 01:07:46,320
Speaker 3: it in your stomach?

1339
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 2: Being in touch with your body and respecting yourself enough

1340
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:53,160
Speaker 2: to sit with it, you know, when you're overcome, you're

1341
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 2: allowed to go outside and cry and sit there for

1342
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 2: twenty minutes because once you extinguish it, there is a

1343
01:07:59,320 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 2: lightness of that happens, and it's when you resist your

1344
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 2: emotions where you get into trouble.

1345
01:08:05,120 --> 01:08:06,640
Speaker 3: So it's okay to feel all.

1346
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,400
Speaker 2: Those emotions and let them out and know, okay, oh

1347
01:08:09,480 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 2: I'm feeling Okay, I'm feeling this. Sometimes it takes thirty

1348
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:14,440
Speaker 2: seconds just to sit with yourself, and sometimes you need

1349
01:08:14,480 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 2: an hour. Whatever it is you need, you know you

1350
01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 2: need and you'll know, but being respectful of that so

1351
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 2: you're not repressing or suppressing anything so that it's not

1352
01:08:24,880 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 2: creeping up on you later. You know that you're experiencing

1353
01:08:28,120 --> 01:08:31,200
Speaker 2: everything and thinking about where it is in your body, like.

1354
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm heavy in my chest right now. Okay, I

1355
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 3: feel like I'm going to cry. Okay, now I'm going

1356
01:08:35,960 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 3: to cry.

1357
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,280
Speaker 2: It sounds almost pedantic in a way, but it's so

1358
01:08:40,920 --> 01:08:45,120
Speaker 2: important to respect yourself and your emotions, and that's how

1359
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:47,719
Speaker 2: you get through something like this in a healthy way,

1360
01:08:48,040 --> 01:08:51,000
Speaker 2: because you are going to be in a place where

1361
01:08:51,280 --> 01:08:54,320
Speaker 2: the pain is no longer as acute as it feels today.

1362
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 3: You are That's what happens with life. You're going to

1363
01:08:57,360 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 3: move on. There are going to be moments where you're

1364
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 3: going to feel.

1365
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:03,120
Speaker 2: Dream joy again, and you may already have and that's

1366
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:06,639
Speaker 2: part of healing. That's part of healing because you're still here,

1367
01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:11,000
Speaker 2: so everything that is coming up, it's just you know,

1368
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 2: you obviously want to be with a therapist and talking

1369
01:09:13,360 --> 01:09:15,479
Speaker 2: with somebody too. You need that kind of support right

1370
01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:16,160
Speaker 2: now for sure?

1371
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 3: Are you seeing someone right now?

1372
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:20,920
Speaker 7: Yeah? Yeah, I have a therapist, yeah yeah, and she's

1373
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:22,800
Speaker 7: really great. Yeah.

1374
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:24,920
Speaker 2: So all of those things are helpful, and just you know,

1375
01:09:25,240 --> 01:09:27,879
Speaker 2: remembering that there is no wrong feeling or emotion.

1376
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:30,840
Speaker 3: There's nothing wrong. This is all just a process and

1377
01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 3: it doesn't last forever.

1378
01:09:33,400 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 7: No, that's really great, Like, thank you, And I just

1379
01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 7: want to say thank you to you as well, because honestly, yeah,

1380
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:41,160
Speaker 7: like listening to your podcast and watching your stand up

1381
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:43,200
Speaker 7: has really helped me a lot, and I just think

1382
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 7: it's so brave of you and yeah, again, really empowered

1383
01:09:46,160 --> 01:09:46,639
Speaker 7: me as well.

1384
01:09:47,320 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you.

1385
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you called in, and I'm so glad

1386
01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 2: we had Dan here today for you, Katy.

1387
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:53,360
Speaker 7: Yeah, it was so nice to meet you as well.

1388
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:53,639
Speaker 3: Dan.

1389
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:56,439
Speaker 5: Thank you so much, Katie, nice to meet you. Thank

1390
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 5: you so much.

1391
01:09:57,840 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thanks Katie, bye bye bye.

1392
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:04,839
Speaker 3: Wow what a sweetie. Yeah wow?

1393
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 2: Oh okay, Well ah, well, that was quite a heavy episode.

1394
01:10:10,960 --> 01:10:15,760
Speaker 1: Today it was I do have one little extra thing

1395
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:19,360
Speaker 1: as we move into this close. Kelsey emailed us and said,

1396
01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:22,439
Speaker 1: I recently went through a massive life change which led

1397
01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:26,120
Speaker 1: me to changing careers, moving states, and finally getting out

1398
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 1: of a long term toxic relationship. I read life Will

1399
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:31,240
Speaker 1: be the Death of Me, and it inspired me to

1400
01:10:31,280 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 1: get back into therapy and really try to delve into

1401
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:38,000
Speaker 1: the deep childhood trauma. Your story resonated with me. I

1402
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,679
Speaker 1: was sitting outside my therapist office today and debated going

1403
01:10:41,720 --> 01:10:44,280
Speaker 1: in and was questioning whether this was where I needed

1404
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 1: to be. I put out into the world that I

1405
01:10:46,760 --> 01:10:50,639
Speaker 1: needed a sign. I went into therapy and halfway through,

1406
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,160
Speaker 1: my therapist pulled out an orange out of her bag,

1407
01:10:54,640 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 1: tossed it to me, and said, I think you need

1408
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:00,680
Speaker 1: this today. I stared at her and sh and then

1409
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 1: subsequently lost it, and then had to explain that I

1410
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:06,879
Speaker 1: was inspired to get back into therapy after reading Chelsea's

1411
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:08,960
Speaker 1: book and that someone tossing me an orange was an

1412
01:11:09,000 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: unexpected sign of compassion when I needed it the most,

1413
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,519
Speaker 1: and orange unraveled me and gave me the sign that

1414
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:18,599
Speaker 1: I'm exactly where I need to be. Our journeys are

1415
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:20,840
Speaker 1: not the same, but thank you for sharing yours and

1416
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:23,120
Speaker 1: inspiring me to heal so that I can find my

1417
01:11:23,200 --> 01:11:27,320
Speaker 1: happy and success as well. It's already working. Much love

1418
01:11:27,320 --> 01:11:28,839
Speaker 1: and admiration, Kelsey.

1419
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:33,559
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that makes me cry. Dan, Can you

1420
01:11:33,640 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 3: believe that?

1421
01:11:34,680 --> 01:11:38,040
Speaker 5: No, that's incredible, that is so beautiful.

1422
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:39,679
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

1423
01:11:41,360 --> 01:11:44,200
Speaker 2: I was sitting the other day I got some shitty news.

1424
01:11:44,280 --> 01:11:47,639
Speaker 2: I was sitting the other day with Joe and we

1425
01:11:47,640 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 2: were somewhere. Oh yeah, it was when I had to

1426
01:11:50,439 --> 01:11:52,040
Speaker 2: go to the hospital. And when the next day we

1427
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 2: were sitting down, I was just like, oh my god,

1428
01:11:54,120 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 2: what's wrong with me?

1429
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 3: I'm so stressed out. I landed myself in the hospital.

1430
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:59,760
Speaker 3: Like I didn't think I was stressed out. And we

1431
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 3: were just sitting in this restaurant and at a hotel.

1432
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,040
Speaker 2: And I was just looking at him, like just so

1433
01:12:05,160 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 2: confused about where I was in my life, Like I

1434
01:12:07,120 --> 01:12:09,160
Speaker 2: thought I was doing so great and I was on

1435
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 2: top of everything and I had learned how to deal

1436
01:12:11,240 --> 01:12:14,759
Speaker 2: with everything. And I looked down and there's this whole

1437
01:12:15,000 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 2: tree of oranges right behind him, my goodness, and I

1438
01:12:18,320 --> 01:12:21,479
Speaker 2: was like, oh my god, and I go look and

1439
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:22,679
Speaker 2: he's like see you're okay.

1440
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 3: You're okay, You're always okay. It's just a little hiccup.

1441
01:12:26,360 --> 01:12:29,240
Speaker 3: So I love that. Oh, Kelsey, thanks for sharing that

1442
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:32,080
Speaker 3: with us. That was so nice, so emotional. I love it.

1443
01:12:33,040 --> 01:12:36,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, let's take a quick break because I just

1444
01:12:36,320 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 2: I have a new loofah that I want to try

1445
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,880
Speaker 2: out on Catherine. I'm sorry, does that sound like workplace?

1446
01:12:41,840 --> 01:12:47,240
Speaker 2: Workplace professionalism? Times have changed and someone has to respect that,

1447
01:12:47,400 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 2: and that's someone is me.

1448
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,639
Speaker 3: That's right. So I apologize Catherine about the lufa comment.

1449
01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:53,760
Speaker 4: It's okay, I love I love it.

1450
01:12:53,800 --> 01:12:54,200
Speaker 3: I'm bad.

1451
01:12:54,240 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 2: I apologize to you too about the lufa comment. Gosh,

1452
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:00,680
Speaker 2: that's your husband right in front of I know.

1453
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 1: It's okay, he wouldn't mind. It'll be fine, It'll be fine.

1454
01:13:03,640 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 1: Let's take a break. Okay, Dan, what advice do you

1455
01:13:10,560 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 1: need from me?

1456
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 5: Well, I asked you earlier. You know, how do you

1457
01:13:14,520 --> 01:13:20,559
Speaker 5: keep that lifelong learning approach going? And the related thing

1458
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:23,160
Speaker 5: was how did you let yourself be open to really

1459
01:13:23,200 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 5: facing your emotional life? There? And then a bonus question

1460
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,400
Speaker 5: for you, which from our relationship you'll probably think this

1461
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:33,000
Speaker 5: is Stan.

1462
01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:33,840
Speaker 3: Is never short winded.

1463
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:40,519
Speaker 5: Everybody particular is how did humor enter your life? So

1464
01:13:40,600 --> 01:13:43,080
Speaker 5: we can try to be inspired, not to be funny

1465
01:13:43,160 --> 01:13:46,439
Speaker 5: stand ups like you are, but to just make sure

1466
01:13:46,479 --> 01:13:48,840
Speaker 5: that in the face of all the challenges we keep

1467
01:13:48,880 --> 01:13:49,879
Speaker 5: our humor alive.

1468
01:13:50,840 --> 01:13:53,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, God, I don't know if you can. I don't

1469
01:13:53,720 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 2: know if that's a learned thing or if that's inherent.

1470
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 2: You know. I think I was born with that because

1471
01:13:59,160 --> 01:14:02,560
Speaker 2: my family was just We're all like that, Like sarcasm

1472
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:06,080
Speaker 2: was was our function, you know, like everything was sarcastic

1473
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 2: to deal with the lameness like we just are were

1474
01:14:10,520 --> 01:14:13,160
Speaker 2: constantly like, oh, like our parents were lame.

1475
01:14:13,720 --> 01:14:15,160
Speaker 3: Growing up was just lame.

1476
01:14:15,280 --> 01:14:18,000
Speaker 2: Our birthdays our parents trying to like celebrate our birthdays

1477
01:14:18,080 --> 01:14:20,759
Speaker 2: was lame. So we just had these built in senses

1478
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:22,960
Speaker 2: of humor to cope with it. But I don't I

1479
01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 2: can't really speak to whether or not you can, you know,

1480
01:14:25,360 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 2: adopt it. I think it's important to remember not to

1481
01:14:27,720 --> 01:14:31,519
Speaker 2: take yourself so seriously. Right, You're not the only person

1482
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 2: on this planet. There's a million billions of things going

1483
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:37,880
Speaker 2: on around you, and you're just what you want to

1484
01:14:37,920 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 2: bring is light and happiness and joyfulness, right to the table,

1485
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 2: to the energy field around you, to the people that

1486
01:14:44,360 --> 01:14:48,160
Speaker 2: you come in contact with. So I think humor plays

1487
01:14:48,160 --> 01:14:51,760
Speaker 2: into that. To be light and happy and set a

1488
01:14:51,800 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 2: tone and inspire people to be open and yeah, I

1489
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 2: guess you know. Just try not to take yourself so seriously.

1490
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:01,400
Speaker 2: You got to be able to laugh at all the

1491
01:15:01,520 --> 01:15:04,960
Speaker 2: bad stuff too, because there's humor and everything. Sometimes you

1492
01:15:05,000 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 2: have to look a little harder for it, but.

1493
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:10,840
Speaker 5: It's there, beautiful. Well, that's great because that actually relates

1494
01:15:10,880 --> 01:15:13,000
Speaker 5: to the other questions that you've already answered. You know

1495
01:15:13,120 --> 01:15:16,640
Speaker 5: how to keep those questions going and really keep an

1496
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 5: open mind to grow throughout life. So Chelsea, thank you

1497
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 5: so much. Catherine, thank you so much. It's really an

1498
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:26,599
Speaker 5: honor to be here with you and really a joy

1499
01:15:26,960 --> 01:15:29,559
Speaker 5: to speak with all the people who had questions today,

1500
01:15:29,560 --> 01:15:32,600
Speaker 5: and I feel very privileged to be here. So thank you.

1501
01:15:32,680 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much.

1502
01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:34,000
Speaker 6: Dan.

1503
01:15:34,040 --> 01:15:36,240
Speaker 2: I know that you usually charge for this kind of advice,

1504
01:15:36,280 --> 01:15:38,440
Speaker 2: so I appreciate you volunteering your services.

1505
01:15:40,520 --> 01:15:45,520
Speaker 5: Well, I feel like I'm enriched just like working with you, Chelsea.

1506
01:15:45,640 --> 01:15:48,040
Speaker 5: This has really been a great conversation today.

1507
01:15:48,080 --> 01:15:49,880
Speaker 3: Thank you awesome. Thank you so much.

1508
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 5: Dan.

1509
01:15:50,200 --> 01:15:51,920
Speaker 3: I really appreciate it. I'll see you soon.

1510
01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 5: Great, you will.

1511
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 1: Thanks Katherine, thank you so much for tuning in to

1512
01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,880
Speaker 1: der Chelsea Season two. We'll be back with another season

1513
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:01,879
Speaker 1: May twelfth.

1514
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:02,479
Speaker 3: See then,