WEBVTT - Trump Trial Date Set & Georgia DA Testifies 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:08.000 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:10.480 --> 0:00:14.080 After months of Donald Trump's attorney's legal wrangling and trying 0:00:14.080 --> 0:00:17.000 to get delays in his criminal trials in three states 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:20.119 and DC, a judge in Manhattan put his foot down 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:23.760 and firmly scheduled the hush money payments trial for March 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.280 twenty fifth. Trump complained outside the courthouse. 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:29.520 I'm going to have to sit here for months on 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:30.240 a trial. 0:00:30.760 --> 0:00:34.760 I think it's ridiculous, it's unfair. In fact, other judges 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.960 are weighing decisions this week that will have major implications 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:41.600 for Trump. In Atlanta, a judge's hearing from witnesses in 0:00:41.640 --> 0:00:44.479 a motion to get prosecutor Fanny Willis kicked off the 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:48.519 Georgia Rico case, And tomorrow a Manhattan judge is slated 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:51.760 to deliver a bombshell verdict in New York civil fraud 0:00:51.800 --> 0:00:55.040 trial against Trump. In addition, the Supreme Court is weighing 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.840 whether to put Trump's DC election case on whole while 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.560 he appeals the DC's Circuit court ruling that he does 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.640 not have presidential immunity from prosecution. Joining me is former 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.480 federal prosecutor Robert Mintz, a partner McCarter in English, it 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.520 seems like Trump now is asking that these cases be 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:16.720 put off until after the election. They certainly ask for 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:19.520 that in this case, and they made similar arguments in 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.000 the Supreme Court briefing. 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:24.480 One scene that we've seen from the Trump defense team 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.160 throughout all of these cases is the allegation and number 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.399 one that they're politically motivated, but sort of piggybacking on 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:34.160 that idea, they say that at a minimum, none of 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:36.840 these cases she go to trial until after the election, 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:41.039 and to do so before the election is an unconstitutional 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:45.679 violation because it interferes with former President Trump's ability to 0:01:45.720 --> 0:01:49.680 campaign and ultimately interferes with the right of people in 0:01:49.680 --> 0:01:52.480 this country to decide who should be their next president. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.040 Long standing Department of Justice policy has always been that 0:01:56.160 --> 0:02:00.320 federal prosecutors should try to avoid bringing in DIBt in 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.600 a way that may affect an upcoming election. Now, that 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:07.880 typically has meant that no indictments should be returned against 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.400 an individual within sixty days of an election, on the 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.760 theory that if you simply charge somebody with a crime, 0:02:15.200 --> 0:02:18.359 they are still considered innocent because they have not yet 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:21.760 been convicted. But the allegations alone may affect the outcome 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.919 of the election, and so that generally has been the rule. Here, 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:28.520 we're seeing indictments that were handed down long ago, but 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.680 the trial itself is now beginning to bump up with 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:35.040 a campaign season. It's not something that we've ever seen before. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.040 Certainly we've never seen it in connection with a former 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.960 president running for the presidency for a third time. And 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:46.280 so there is no real case law on this issue. 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:49.000 But I think all of the judges down the line 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.359 have taken the view that they are trying to get 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:55.240 these cases done before the election, but ultimately they cannot 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.280 consider as a reason to delay the trial simply the 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:01.840 fact that former President Trump wants to be campaigning for office. 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.240 Also, it seems like the judges, having seen the way 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.840 Trump's attorneys act in court, some would say, you know, 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.480 they're over the top and their presentation, they interrupt a lot. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:17.200 This judge just put up with no nonsense from these attorneys. 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.840 The judge in the Manhattan Das case has been very 0:03:19.919 --> 0:03:22.959 no nonsense from the start and set a March twenty 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.840 fifth date for this trial to begin. Initially, the thought 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.440 was that the trial out of the district of Columbia, 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:33.960 the federal trial that deals with the events surrounding January sixth. 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:36.400 That was going to be the first trial, but now 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.920 that case has been hung up on appeals. Former President 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.960 Trump's lawyers are arguing that he should be immune from 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.040 any criminal conduct while he was president, and that has 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:48.920 been making its way through the court. A unanimous three 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:52.040 judge panel for the Court of Appeals rejected that argument. 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:55.480 The Trump defense team has now sought appeal by the 0:03:55.520 --> 0:03:58.080 Supreme Court, and we're waiting to hear whether the Supreme 0:03:58.120 --> 0:04:02.040 Court will stay the lower court trial while that decision 0:04:02.080 --> 0:04:05.040 is made, and even whether the Supreme Court will take 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:07.920 the case. But while the case in Washington, d c. 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.280 Has been delayed because of these appeals, it has set 0:04:12.320 --> 0:04:14.960 the stage for the Manhattan Day's case to now be 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:19.159 the first case where a former president is facing criminal charges. 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.240 And unlike the case brought by the New York Attorney General, 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:24.960 which was a civil case that dealt with the Trump 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:28.680 organization and whether or not assets have been inflated improperly 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.600 in order to get more favorable loan terms. That case, 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.919 former President Trump was not required to attend every day, 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.240 and so he did sporadically but the criminal case is 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:41.200 one where he will have to attend every day. So 0:04:41.240 --> 0:04:44.680 it will be a historic spectacle to see a former 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.359 president Trump sitting in the courtroom every day during a 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:51.160 criminal trial. It's never been done before, and it's going 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.000 to happen beginning on March twenty fifth in Manhattan. 0:04:54.440 --> 0:04:57.640 Now, there were several arguments that Trump's lawyers, they raised 0:04:57.680 --> 0:05:00.960 every argument I think you could imagine, and they said 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:04.360 that despite the fact that the DC trial has been 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:08.360 put on hold, they said, they've been preparing for that trial. 0:05:08.440 --> 0:05:10.800 We had to focus one hundred percent of our attention 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:14.159 on preparing for that trial. And the judge basically said 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.560 too bad. He said, you willingly chose those two cases 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:20.520 to represent Trump in I told you March twenty fifth 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:23.720 was a date certain you proceeded at your own peril. 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.240 So what ends up happening is that judges have to 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:32.640 navigate the other cases in terms of scheduling their trials. 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.839 There's no set rules and there is no set procedure 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.440 to determine which case goes to trials first. And so 0:05:39.560 --> 0:05:42.159 what the judges here have done is they have tried 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:45.640 to be respectful of the other proceedings and try to 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:47.960 not get in the way of other trials that were 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:49.800 set to go first. And that's why we saw the 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:52.039 case of the District of Columbia set to go in 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.240 early March, and the Manhattan DA's case, the case that 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:57.200 is now going to trial at the end of March, 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.760 was going to be delayed because of the case and 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.000 the sort of Columbia involving the January sixth insurrection. But 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.760 now that that case is put off, the case Manhattan 0:06:05.880 --> 0:06:08.400 is going first, and this judge has said from the 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:11.240 beginning that you have to be ready to go in 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.040 March if we go first. Now, the Trump defense team 0:06:14.040 --> 0:06:16.440 has raised a litany of issues as to why the 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:17.640 Manhattan DA's. 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:18.480 Case should be delayed. 0:06:18.720 --> 0:06:21.280 One of them, as you mentioned, is that they have 0:06:21.360 --> 0:06:25.200 been preparing for the case in Washington. Clearly everybody thought 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:27.120 that case was going to go first, but the judge 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.760 Manhattan really had no patience with that argument, by saying, 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.520 you chose to represent former President Trump in these two cases. 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:36.800 There could have been another lawyer in that case, and 0:06:36.839 --> 0:06:39.000 that is something you did at your own risk, and 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.240 so he was not going to delay the trial for 0:06:41.279 --> 0:06:44.320 that reason. They also raised a number of other arguments 0:06:44.400 --> 0:06:47.560 saying that would interfere with the campaign season. That was 0:06:47.560 --> 0:06:50.680 something that was not successful. The Trump defense team also 0:06:50.880 --> 0:06:53.680 tried to delay the trial by trying it to the 0:06:53.760 --> 0:06:57.159 recent verdict in the Egene Carrol defamation case. That's the 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.320 case that was recently decided also in Manhattan, had to 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:03.680 deal with allegations that he had defamed Egen Carroll in 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:06.919 connection with a sexual assault. There was a large verdict, 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:09.880 a lots of publicity, an eighty three million dollar plain 0:07:09.960 --> 0:07:13.280 of verdict on behalf of Egen Carroll for defaming her 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.520 when he denied that he sexually assaulted her. And the 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:17.840 Trump lawyers are saying that that will paint the jury 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.920 pool again. The judge thought that can be dealt with 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.480 a trial. That could be dealt with during jury selection. 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:26.240 You always have issues of a person who has a 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:29.440 lot of notoriety, People have strong opinions about him. Frankly, 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:31.200 you're never going to find a jury in Manhattan that 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:33.840 doesn't have strong opinions about former President Trump. And so 0:07:34.320 --> 0:07:37.640 the Vadier process where lawyers get to question jurors will 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.280 have to be used effectively to try to weed out 0:07:40.280 --> 0:07:42.920 anybody who has a preconceived notion about what the verdict 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:45.360 should be, and they will ultimately have to take whatever 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:47.680 time it does in order to select a jury that 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.040 has an open mind, that will make a decision based 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:53.200 solely on the evidence and not based upon any preconceived 0:07:53.200 --> 0:07:56.520 notions or any extraneous information that's not presented a trial. 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.480 So now Michael Cohene is going to be key his 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.920 testimony in this case. Trump's lawyers complained that Cohen had 0:08:03.920 --> 0:08:08.280 committed perjury when he testified in October in the New 0:08:08.320 --> 0:08:11.880 York Attorney General's case, and they said, how can we 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:14.480 possibly go to a trial with a witness who committed 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:17.640 perjury across the street two months ago. They should be 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:19.240 investigating him. 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.080 Well, what the Trump team was referring to was in 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:26.200 the New York Attorney General's case, where former President Trump's 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:29.400 lawyer Michael Cohene was also a key witness. He had 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.480 testified under oath that former President Trump had directed him 0:08:33.520 --> 0:08:36.640 to inflate his assets again in order to try to 0:08:36.720 --> 0:08:41.480 receive more favorable loans from Joasia Bank. Tone later changed 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:44.640 that story during the trial today that while he was 0:08:44.640 --> 0:08:48.720 not directly directed by former President Trump, it was implied 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.000 by former President Trump that he wanted to inflate those assets. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.280 The Trump defense team has said that Cohen has allegedly 0:08:56.600 --> 0:09:00.120 admitted to perjury. Whether that was perjury or not is 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.840 an open question, but the right remedy for that. 0:09:03.160 --> 0:09:03.719 This is what the. 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:07.360 Prosecution argues, is that that is fodder for cross examination. 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:09.959 Michael Cohen will be a key witness in the case 0:09:09.960 --> 0:09:12.960 of Manhattan DA's office. He already carries a lot of 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.920 baggage with him because he's pled guilty the federal campaign violations, 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.280 He's admitted to lying in other proceedings, and so we 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.440 can expect a very rigorous cross examination of him during 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:27.360 this trial. And the Trump lawyers will essentially argue that 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:30.840 you can't believe anything Michael Cohen says, and then ultimately 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:32.920 it will be up to a jury to decide whether 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:35.120 he's telling the truth when he testifies in this trial, 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:36.600 and Bob. 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.360 This is the case that's going first. This is also 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:43.800 the case that most legal analysts and others consider the 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:48.680 weakest of the criminal cases against Donald Trump. Explain why 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:50.080 it's considered the weakest. 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.560 One of the issues that has been dogging this case 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:56.480 from the outset was the way in which the Manhattan 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:59.840 DA charged it. This is basically a charge for full 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.240 defying business records. And in this case, what it means 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.920 is that back in October of twenty sixteen, the allegation 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:11.800 is that former President Trump, through Michael Cone, his former attorney, 0:10:12.040 --> 0:10:15.559 was paying off Stormy Daniels, a porn star who alleged 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:18.320 that she had an affair with former President Trump. The 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.319 allegation is that former President Trump, who was campaigning for 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:24.600 office then, was concerned about this allegation going public and 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.240 damaging his chances in the election. So there was a 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:31.160 payment made to Stormy Daniels through Michael Cone that was 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:35.760 later concealed as a legal payment. Ultimately, that created, according 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.200 to the Manhattan DA, a false business record. Now, typically 0:10:39.280 --> 0:10:43.040 business records violations in New York State are misdemeanors, which 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.560 means they're punishable only by up to a year in prison, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:49.160 and they're relatively minor charges. But what the DA did 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.400 here is he turned those into felonies, which you can 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:56.680 do if the business records violation is somehow tied to 0:10:56.800 --> 0:11:00.800 another crime, or, in this case, the concealment of another. Now, 0:11:00.840 --> 0:11:03.560 the real issue here is that the concealment of the 0:11:03.600 --> 0:11:07.920 other crime was a federal campaign law violation, and that 0:11:08.160 --> 0:11:12.000 theory tying the business records violation to a federal rather 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.200 than a state law violation has never been tested in 0:11:15.240 --> 0:11:18.679 the appeals court. So although that issue was argued before 0:11:18.679 --> 0:11:21.480 the trial judge Manhattan, and the judge rejected it, I 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.160 think we can see that issue raised again on appeal. 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:26.120 And if there's going to be a real problem with 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:29.400 this case, it's not likely to be in the evidence 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:31.520 that's presented a trial. It's likely to be in this 0:11:31.720 --> 0:11:36.040 legal theory, which is somewhat novel, never been tested. It's 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.760 possible that on appeal, an appeals court and may look 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.320 at the trial court ruling and take a different view 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.640 as to whether or not there was a legal basis 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:45.240 to bring these charges in the first place. 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:50.400 And another which you discussed earlier, is just that so 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:54.120 much of the case relies on the testimony of Michael Cohen, 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.960 and the defense has so many ways to attack him. 0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:02.000 Yeah, Michael Cohen is certainly a problematic, but prosecutors deal 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.200 with that all the time. 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:04.960 They will typically. 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:09.559 Argue that you don't have cooperating witnesses who have clean hands, 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:12.719 You don't have cooperating witnesses who are choir boys, who 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.520 have people who have gotten down into the DIRG who've 0:12:15.559 --> 0:12:18.240 engaged in illegal acts, and that's why they're valuable as 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.920 witnesses because they played a key role in the crime. 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.760 So that's sort of a standard playbook for prosecutors. But 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.760 the flip side to that is that defense lawyers have 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.840 the ability to question their credibility and state of jurors. 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:35.320 Michael Cone has admitted to lying under oath before, why 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:37.720 do you believe he's not lying under oath now? And 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.120 they'll be up to prosecutors to try to prop up 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:44.440 Michael Cone by presenting other evidence, through other witnesses and 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:48.120 corroborating documentary evidence to try to convince the jury that 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.720 they should believe Michael Cone. And they're going to do 0:12:50.800 --> 0:12:54.200 that by not resting their entire case on Michael Cone's 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:57.520 credibility on his testimony, but by saying that when you 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.880 view his testimony in connection with all the other evidence 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:04.240 that's being presented, it's something that the jury can believe, 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:07.560 something that the jury can believe. The prosecution has met 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.120 its burner proof on which is beyond a reasonable doubt. 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:13.240 But ultimately you're correct, Michael Cohne will be the star 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:16.240 witness and whether he's believed by this jury will ultimately 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:17.480 determine the outcome of the case. 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:21.439 Trump has put himself in this position because he's trying 0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.480 to delay all these trials, and so they run into 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.920 each other because of his attempts at delay. I mean, 0:13:27.360 --> 0:13:31.160 otherwise the DC trial would have gone off in early March, 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:35.240 and the New York judge was prepared to put that 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:36.200 case on hold. 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:39.080 Well, yeah, and that's one of the reasons the trial 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:44.000 judge gave for ejecting the delay, saying that former President 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.440 Trump and his legal team has fought critical stepoenas in 0:13:47.480 --> 0:13:51.400 the Manhattan DA's case, which ultimately delayed the trial. And 0:13:51.440 --> 0:13:54.800 that's currently true that there has been tremendous motion practice 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.840 and appeals in all of these cases and it has 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.520 delayed them. And now the Trump defense it's trying to 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.160 flip that on the head and saying, well, now that 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.280 we're too close to the election, we really ought to 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:07.120 carry it over until after November. But so far we're 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.120 not seeing the trial judge buying that argument. 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:12.199 And Bob, you mentioned how important the jury selection will 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:15.520 be in the hush money case, and there was discussion 0:14:15.559 --> 0:14:19.480 today about the jury questionnaire that potential jurors will fill 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:23.960 out before the voisdir. The judge hasn't decided on the 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.360 final questionnaire yet, but both the prosecution and the defense 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:31.640 discussed having jurors identify where they get their news from. 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.920 The Prosecutors also want the judge to find out if 0:14:34.920 --> 0:14:38.960 potential jurors have read any of Trump's books, and lawyers 0:14:38.960 --> 0:14:41.960 for Trump also asked the judge to question potential jurors 0:14:42.040 --> 0:14:45.280 about what kind of bumper stickers and lawn signs they 0:14:45.320 --> 0:14:48.160 had in front of their homes to determine their politics. 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.360 So it is likely to be a long questionnaire. Thanks 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.200 so much, Bob. That's Robert Mints, a partner Maccarter and 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:58.200 English and in Atlanta today, in an extraordinary hearing that 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:01.400 threatens to upend one of the f criminal cases against 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:05.440 the former president, Fulton County District Attorney Fanny Willis took 0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:08.760 the witness stand and forcefully pushed back against what she 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:13.040 described as lies about her romantic relationship with the special 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:16.920 prosecutor she appointed in the case. Highly offensive with someone 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.840 lies on you, and it's highly offensive when they that 0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:22.040 you slept with somebody the first day you met with them. 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:24.600 And I take exception two and joining me now from 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:29.240 the courthouse in Atlanta is Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis. 0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.720 And David, I know it's a little noisy where you are, 0:15:31.760 --> 0:15:34.440 but I'm happy to have you. It seemed very tense 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:37.920 watching this on TV. What was it like in the. 0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:42.120 Courtroom at different times? It was quite tense, particularly when 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.000 Fannie Willis was on the stand. She was at times combative, 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:50.880 she was funny, She pushed back on many different points 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:55.280 that the sense lawyers questioned her on and again the 0:15:55.360 --> 0:16:00.840 Trump Co defendants are accusing her of misconduct removed from 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:05.320 the case, and she's very emphatically pushing back against that. So, yeah, 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:07.840 tense is a word that I was used to describe 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:11.040 the atmosphere when she was on the stand and when 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.360 Nathan Wade was on the stand as well. 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:15.960 Let's go back to Nathan Wade for a moment. What 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.640 did you make of his testimony? He contradicted what one 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.960 of the earlier witnesses said about timing of their affair, 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.240 and timing seems to be very important here. 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:29.520 Key to the timing is that Nathan Wade was hired 0:16:29.680 --> 0:16:34.640 in November of twenty one, and the Trump Co defendants 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:41.520 claimed that he was having an affair with Bonnie Willis 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:46.440 at the end of twenty nineteen, which he hotly disputes. 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:49.600 He said it didn't begin until early twenty twenty two, 0:16:49.760 --> 0:16:54.920 which is also what Bonnie Willis testified to. The timing 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.360 matters because it goes to whether the two of them, 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.680 twenty wee Willis and Nathan Wade, were deriving improper financial 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:06.119 benefits from the investigation. 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.399 There was a lot of quibbling, it seemed to me, 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:13.440 overwording because they had his derogatories in his divorce case 0:17:13.480 --> 0:17:15.040 that they were quizzing him about. 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:19.199 There was a basic point. Nathan Wade is still married, 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:24.119 and in his eyes, he testified that he has not 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.879 been married for several years because his marriage is irretrievably 0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:31.920 broken and so he can do what he likes, and 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:36.080 so in his divorce proceedings, which are happening at the 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.480 same time in neighboring Cobb County, he filled out after 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:43.160 Davis that said that he did not have romantic relationship 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:48.040 outside of his marriage, and so Trump Co decendants are 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.840 trying to pin him to those words while he's also 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:55.080 admitting that he had an affair with Bonnie Willis for 0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:59.639 a year and a half and so the question is 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.439 he married or not. He's still legally married. 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:05.879 So now when she got on the stand, and there 0:18:05.920 --> 0:18:10.200 was this dramatic moment because they were arguing about whether 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.119 or not she would have to be called, and she 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.200 suddenly appeared in the courtroom and said, I'm ready. I'm 0:18:15.240 --> 0:18:16.480 ready to go right. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.160 Sister Attorney's office had fought the subpoena for her. They 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:24.480 tried to quash it, and the judge had agreed earlier 0:18:24.520 --> 0:18:28.440 this week that he would temporarily quash it until he 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.840 saw what the testimony was and decided whether she would 0:18:31.880 --> 0:18:35.320 need it or not. So then when frump codfendant Michael 0:18:35.400 --> 0:18:39.760 Roman's lawyer, Ashley Merchant, called her, there was a dramatic 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.840 moment where the Sister Attorney's office said that they were 0:18:42.920 --> 0:18:46.359 dropping their objections and that she wanted to testify. So 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.280 then she came to the courtroom and everyone was sort 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:50.000 of taken aback. 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.879 She was very dramatic on the stand. I mean, she 0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:57.119 seemed like she was in control of the questioning because 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.280 she got in what she wanted to get in, no 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:00.560 matter what the question was. 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.760 Well, the judge didn't always agree with her approach. There 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.520 were times when he thought that she was making speeches 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.560 and not answering direct questions. She felt she needed more 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.680 room to answer those questions, and so there were some 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.840 tense moments with the judge. But clearly this the woman 0:19:17.880 --> 0:19:22.480 who's charismatic and a strong speaker, and I guess is 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.760 used to being able to state things the way she 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:26.280 wants to. 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.600 And what do you think she established in her testimony 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:32.280 or what did the defense establish in her testimony? 0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:37.000 Well, the defense raised some substantial questions about how she 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:40.520 manages cash, and she testified that she had had several 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.639 thousand dollars in cash in her house at various points, 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:49.040 and that she consistently reimbursed Nathan Wade for their travels 0:19:49.080 --> 0:19:53.520 with cash. And so the defense makes the case that 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:57.520 there's no receipt of that, there's no proof of her 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:02.560 claim that she in fact made these cash reimbursements. So 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:07.440 that's going to have to be the question that's left unresolved, 0:20:07.480 --> 0:20:11.119 and it's something that Judge Scott McAfee is going to 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:15.280 have to decide who's more credible here, Is it Wade 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:18.959 and Willis or was it the friend of Wade who 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.919 took the stand earlier and said that their affair began 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:23.520 in twenty nineteen. 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:25.960 Let's say they had an affair. Let's say the affairs 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:31.040 start in twenty nineteen. How does that prejudice the defendants here. 0:20:31.320 --> 0:20:35.320 Well, because it's an undisclosed conflict of interest. They argue 0:20:35.359 --> 0:20:40.320 that it's something that she should have disclosed to the county, 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:46.639 which is paying for his bills, his invoices. And it 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:52.760 also suggests that they have an improper motive in the prosecution, 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.679 and carrying the prosecution on has been the more money 0:20:56.720 --> 0:21:00.960 he makes, the longer the prosecution goes, the more the 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:02.120 two of them benefit. 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.480 So what happens now is the hearing over. 0:21:06.080 --> 0:21:09.560 The hearing will continue on Friday. The judge and the 0:21:09.600 --> 0:21:12.040 lawyers just made clear that it's going to take most 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:16.360 of the day. The judge will then entertained legal arguments 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:18.879 after tomorrow. He's going to try to get through the 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:22.200 evidence ary part of this hearing tomorrow, and the judge 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:24.240 also made clear that it's going to take him a 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:25.400 while to make a decision. 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:25.679 Here. 0:21:26.119 --> 0:21:28.480 Do we know what other witnesses are coming up? She 0:21:28.600 --> 0:21:30.080 mentioned her father a great deal. 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:34.280 There's going to be some financial records. There's going to 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:38.480 be continued questioning of Fannie Willis, which could take some 0:21:38.640 --> 0:21:42.399 time tomorrow. Then the DA's office said that they have 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:45.919 witnesses that could take them four hours or so, but 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:47.080 they didn't spell them out. 0:21:47.520 --> 0:21:50.560 Wow, that's a lot more than I expected. Thanks so 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:52.800 much for taking the time to talk to us, David. 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:57.240 That's Bloomberg Legal reporter David Voriakis, obviously coming to us 0:21:57.320 --> 0:22:01.240 from the courthouse in Atlanta. Up next on the Bloomberg 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:03.919 Law Show, we'll talk more about the hearing in Georgia 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:08.080